* Computer Science
@ jwantz
` Amanda Lee
0 siblings, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread
From: jwantz @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: speakup
Hi Chris,
I'm not going to get involved in the "bookshare wars', but since you were
chastizing others on this list because most people use WINDOWS and not
linux, I think its only fair to point out that your computer science
department is very nonstandard. Though I am a meteorologist, not a
computer science person, I know many computer science students in the past
and the present. Teaching WINDOWS programming is very nonstandard. I
would guess that at least 90 percent of the schools teach programming on a
UNIX variant of some kind. In the past thre was a fair amount of people
using VMS. However, a lot of beginning C and C++ classes did use
Turbo/Borland. WINDOWS programming is much more difficult than UNIX
programming, so I suppose you are to be congratulated for making it
through such a tough curriculum.
Jim Wantz
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread* Re: Computer Science
Computer Science jwantz
@ ` Amanda Lee
` Thomas Ward
` (3 more replies)
0 siblings, 4 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: Amanda Lee @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: speakup
Nope, Unix, Mainframes aren't standard anymore. The college grads we get
these days at Verizon have no clue what Unix or Mainframes are all about.
Everything is taught on a Windows-based Platform. I believe JAVA is
taught, probably Visual Basic, Maybe sometimes C Language but usually C
Plus Plus which was actually abandoned in the project I work on for
straight C Language.
I would think in the future though, there will be a change back to at
least teaching Linux since it can run on a less expensive platform. It's
pretty disgraceful how the content of Computer Sciences education has been
degraded and these kids coming out have an ego bigger than life and think
they can take on the World in a day!
They really struggle when they can't understand how to program and the
quality of code coming out is pretty awful. There is even this mentality
in the Corporate World which indicates that one can learn everything they
need to on the job and yet they can't figure out why there are so many
problems with efficiency and the costs resulting from poor efficiency.
Amanda Lee
On Thu, 14 Mar 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
> Hi Chris,
> I'm not going to get involved in the "bookshare wars', but since you were
> chastizing others on this list because most people use WINDOWS and not
> linux, I think its only fair to point out that your computer science
> department is very nonstandard. Though I am a meteorologist, not a
> computer science person, I know many computer science students in the past
> and the present. Teaching WINDOWS programming is very nonstandard. I
> would guess that at least 90 percent of the schools teach programming on a
> UNIX variant of some kind. In the past thre was a fair amount of people
> using VMS. However, a lot of beginning C and C++ classes did use
> Turbo/Borland. WINDOWS programming is much more difficult than UNIX
> programming, so I suppose you are to be congratulated for making it
> through such a tough curriculum.
>
> Jim Wantz
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread* Re: Computer Science
` Amanda Lee
@ ` Thomas Ward
` Johan Bergström
` (2 more replies)
` jwantz
` (2 subsequent siblings)
3 siblings, 3 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: Thomas Ward @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: speakup
Amanda so true. I am a CS student myself and I know exactly what my college
teaches. They teach you Visual Basic, html with Javascript, Visual C++, MS
SQL, MS Access, and you get the point.
Almost everything is now Microsoft this, and Microsoft that. In fact all the
computers in the CS labs have Windows NT on them.
They use to offer Unix C programming courses, but I don't think they do any
more. Been a while since I stepped into a class room, and when I went
through they were just making the switch to MS everything.
----- Original Message -----
From: Amanda Lee <amanda@shellworld.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: Computer Science
> Nope, Unix, Mainframes aren't standard anymore. The college grads we get
> these days at Verizon have no clue what Unix or Mainframes are all about.
> Everything is taught on a Windows-based Platform. I believe JAVA is
> taught, probably Visual Basic, Maybe sometimes C Language but usually C
> Plus Plus which was actually abandoned in the project I work on for
> straight C Language.
>
> I would think in the future though, there will be a change back to at
> least teaching Linux since it can run on a less expensive platform. It's
> pretty disgraceful how the content of Computer Sciences education has been
> degraded and these kids coming out have an ego bigger than life and think
> they can take on the World in a day!
>
> They really struggle when they can't understand how to program and the
> quality of code coming out is pretty awful. There is even this mentality
> in the Corporate World which indicates that one can learn everything they
> need to on the job and yet they can't figure out why there are so many
> problems with efficiency and the costs resulting from poor efficiency.
>
> Amanda Lee
>
>
>
> On Thu, 14 Mar 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
>
> > Hi Chris,
> > I'm not going to get involved in the "bookshare wars', but since you
were
> > chastizing others on this list because most people use WINDOWS and not
> > linux, I think its only fair to point out that your computer science
> > department is very nonstandard. Though I am a meteorologist, not a
> > computer science person, I know many computer science students in the
past
> > and the present. Teaching WINDOWS programming is very nonstandard. I
> > would guess that at least 90 percent of the schools teach programming on
a
> > UNIX variant of some kind. In the past thre was a fair amount of people
> > using VMS. However, a lot of beginning C and C++ classes did use
> > Turbo/Borland. WINDOWS programming is much more difficult than UNIX
> > programming, so I suppose you are to be congratulated for making it
> > through such a tough curriculum.
> >
> > Jim Wantz
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread* Re: Computer Science
` Thomas Ward
@ ` Johan Bergström
` Igor Gueths
` Richard Villa
` Igor Gueths
` jwantz
2 siblings, 2 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: Johan Bergström @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: speakup
In sweden the universities teach lisp/ada/c/c++ and other programming
languages. Not IDE's. At least the ones I know about. There are separate
windows programming classes, at some places, which are specially for
people who enjoy that kind of stuff, where they debug the windows kernel
using softice and stuff like that. They run most of their server in a *nix
based enviroment.
johbe
On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, Thomas Ward wrote:
> Amanda so true. I am a CS student myself and I know exactly what my college
> teaches. They teach you Visual Basic, html with Javascript, Visual C++, MS
> SQL, MS Access, and you get the point.
> Almost everything is now Microsoft this, and Microsoft that. In fact all the
> computers in the CS labs have Windows NT on them.
> They use to offer Unix C programming courses, but I don't think they do any
> more. Been a while since I stepped into a class room, and when I went
> through they were just making the switch to MS everything.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Amanda Lee <amanda@shellworld.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 9:36 AM
> Subject: Re: Computer Science
>
>
> > Nope, Unix, Mainframes aren't standard anymore. The college grads we get
> > these days at Verizon have no clue what Unix or Mainframes are all about.
> > Everything is taught on a Windows-based Platform. I believe JAVA is
> > taught, probably Visual Basic, Maybe sometimes C Language but usually C
> > Plus Plus which was actually abandoned in the project I work on for
> > straight C Language.
> >
> > I would think in the future though, there will be a change back to at
> > least teaching Linux since it can run on a less expensive platform. It's
> > pretty disgraceful how the content of Computer Sciences education has been
> > degraded and these kids coming out have an ego bigger than life and think
> > they can take on the World in a day!
> >
> > They really struggle when they can't understand how to program and the
> > quality of code coming out is pretty awful. There is even this mentality
> > in the Corporate World which indicates that one can learn everything they
> > need to on the job and yet they can't figure out why there are so many
> > problems with efficiency and the costs resulting from poor efficiency.
> >
> > Amanda Lee
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 14 Mar 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Chris,
> > > I'm not going to get involved in the "bookshare wars', but since you
> were
> > > chastizing others on this list because most people use WINDOWS and not
> > > linux, I think its only fair to point out that your computer science
> > > department is very nonstandard. Though I am a meteorologist, not a
> > > computer science person, I know many computer science students in the
> past
> > > and the present. Teaching WINDOWS programming is very nonstandard. I
> > > would guess that at least 90 percent of the schools teach programming on
> a
> > > UNIX variant of some kind. In the past thre was a fair amount of people
> > > using VMS. However, a lot of beginning C and C++ classes did use
> > > Turbo/Borland. WINDOWS programming is much more difficult than UNIX
> > > programming, so I suppose you are to be congratulated for making it
> > > through such a tough curriculum.
> > >
> > > Jim Wantz
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread* Re: Computer Science
` Johan Bergström
@ ` Igor Gueths
` Richard Villa
1 sibling, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: Igor Gueths @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: speakup
Hi Johan. Do they teach Linux programming in C over there? Or is it just Winblows like over here? I'd be interested to hear more about this, since I am from the United States, and most of the stuff over here is Winblows programming unfortunately. At least this is as far as colleges go.
----- Original Message -----
From: Johan Bergström <johbe@linux.se>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 2:01 PM
Subject: Re: Computer Science
> In sweden the universities teach lisp/ada/c/c++ and other programming
> languages. Not IDE's. At least the ones I know about. There are separate
> windows programming classes, at some places, which are specially for
> people who enjoy that kind of stuff, where they debug the windows kernel
> using softice and stuff like that. They run most of their server in a *nix
> based enviroment.
>
> johbe
>
> On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, Thomas Ward wrote:
>
> > Amanda so true. I am a CS student myself and I know exactly what my college
> > teaches. They teach you Visual Basic, html with Javascript, Visual C++, MS
> > SQL, MS Access, and you get the point.
> > Almost everything is now Microsoft this, and Microsoft that. In fact all the
> > computers in the CS labs have Windows NT on them.
> > They use to offer Unix C programming courses, but I don't think they do any
> > more. Been a while since I stepped into a class room, and when I went
> > through they were just making the switch to MS everything.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Amanda Lee <amanda@shellworld.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 9:36 AM
> > Subject: Re: Computer Science
> >
> >
> > > Nope, Unix, Mainframes aren't standard anymore. The college grads we get
> > > these days at Verizon have no clue what Unix or Mainframes are all about.
> > > Everything is taught on a Windows-based Platform. I believe JAVA is
> > > taught, probably Visual Basic, Maybe sometimes C Language but usually C
> > > Plus Plus which was actually abandoned in the project I work on for
> > > straight C Language.
> > >
> > > I would think in the future though, there will be a change back to at
> > > least teaching Linux since it can run on a less expensive platform. It's
> > > pretty disgraceful how the content of Computer Sciences education has been
> > > degraded and these kids coming out have an ego bigger than life and think
> > > they can take on the World in a day!
> > >
> > > They really struggle when they can't understand how to program and the
> > > quality of code coming out is pretty awful. There is even this mentality
> > > in the Corporate World which indicates that one can learn everything they
> > > need to on the job and yet they can't figure out why there are so many
> > > problems with efficiency and the costs resulting from poor efficiency.
> > >
> > > Amanda Lee
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, 14 Mar 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Chris,
> > > > I'm not going to get involved in the "bookshare wars', but since you
> > were
> > > > chastizing others on this list because most people use WINDOWS and not
> > > > linux, I think its only fair to point out that your computer science
> > > > department is very nonstandard. Though I am a meteorologist, not a
> > > > computer science person, I know many computer science students in the
> > past
> > > > and the present. Teaching WINDOWS programming is very nonstandard. I
> > > > would guess that at least 90 percent of the schools teach programming on
> > a
> > > > UNIX variant of some kind. In the past thre was a fair amount of people
> > > > using VMS. However, a lot of beginning C and C++ classes did use
> > > > Turbo/Borland. WINDOWS programming is much more difficult than UNIX
> > > > programming, so I suppose you are to be congratulated for making it
> > > > through such a tough curriculum.
> > > >
> > > > Jim Wantz
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread* Re: Computer Science
` Johan Bergström
` Igor Gueths
@ ` Richard Villa
` Amanda Lee
` jwantz
1 sibling, 2 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: Richard Villa @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: speakup
I wonder when the last time anyone did any real programming not just
coding using a language like assembler.
I don't believe anyone knows what programming is until they have to
write in an assembly language.
On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, Johan
Bergström wrote:
> In sweden the universities teach lisp/ada/c/c++ and other programming
> languages. Not IDE's. At least the ones I know about. There are separate
> windows programming classes, at some places, which are specially for
> people who enjoy that kind of stuff, where they debug the windows kernel
> using softice and stuff like that. They run most of their server in a *nix
> based enviroment.
>
> johbe
>
> On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, Thomas Ward wrote:
>
> > Amanda so true. I am a CS student myself and I know exactly what my college
> > teaches. They teach you Visual Basic, html with Javascript, Visual C++, MS
> > SQL, MS Access, and you get the point.
> > Almost everything is now Microsoft this, and Microsoft that. In fact all the
> > computers in the CS labs have Windows NT on them.
> > They use to offer Unix C programming courses, but I don't think they do any
> > more. Been a while since I stepped into a class room, and when I went
> > through they were just making the switch to MS everything.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Amanda Lee <amanda@shellworld.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 9:36 AM
> > Subject: Re: Computer Science
> >
> >
> > > Nope, Unix, Mainframes aren't standard anymore. The college grads we get
> > > these days at Verizon have no clue what Unix or Mainframes are all about.
> > > Everything is taught on a Windows-based Platform. I believe JAVA is
> > > taught, probably Visual Basic, Maybe sometimes C Language but usually C
> > > Plus Plus which was actually abandoned in the project I work on for
> > > straight C Language.
> > >
> > > I would think in the future though, there will be a change back to at
> > > least teaching Linux since it can run on a less expensive platform. It's
> > > pretty disgraceful how the content of Computer Sciences education has been
> > > degraded and these kids coming out have an ego bigger than life and think
> > > they can take on the World in a day!
> > >
> > > They really struggle when they can't understand how to program and the
> > > quality of code coming out is pretty awful. There is even this mentality
> > > in the Corporate World which indicates that one can learn everything they
> > > need to on the job and yet they can't figure out why there are so many
> > > problems with efficiency and the costs resulting from poor efficiency.
> > >
> > > Amanda Lee
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, 14 Mar 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Chris,
> > > > I'm not going to get involved in the "bookshare wars', but since you
> > were
> > > > chastizing others on this list because most people use WINDOWS and not
> > > > linux, I think its only fair to point out that your computer science
> > > > department is very nonstandard. Though I am a meteorologist, not a
> > > > computer science person, I know many computer science students in the
> > past
> > > > and the present. Teaching WINDOWS programming is very nonstandard. I
> > > > would guess that at least 90 percent of the schools teach programming on
> > a
> > > > UNIX variant of some kind. In the past thre was a fair amount of people
> > > > using VMS. However, a lot of beginning C and C++ classes did use
> > > > Turbo/Borland. WINDOWS programming is much more difficult than UNIX
> > > > programming, so I suppose you are to be congratulated for making it
> > > > through such a tough curriculum.
> > > >
> > > > Jim Wantz
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
--
It is better to give then to receive. You don't believe me, just ask a
boxer.
Richard
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread* Re: Computer Science
` Richard Villa
@ ` Amanda Lee
` Bruce Noblick
` jwantz
1 sibling, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread
From: Amanda Lee @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: speakup
Amen! Richard, I miss it and would love to go back to coding and maintaining
Assembler code again!
Amanda Lee
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Villa" <rvilla1@swbell.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 6:02 PM
Subject: Re: Computer Science
I wonder when the last time anyone did any real programming not just
coding using a language like assembler.
I don't believe anyone knows what programming is until they have to
write in an assembly language.
On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, Johan
Bergström wrote:
> In sweden the universities teach lisp/ada/c/c++ and other programming
> languages. Not IDE's. At least the ones I know about. There are separate
> windows programming classes, at some places, which are specially for
> people who enjoy that kind of stuff, where they debug the windows kernel
> using softice and stuff like that. They run most of their server in a *nix
> based enviroment.
>
> johbe
>
> On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, Thomas Ward wrote:
>
> > Amanda so true. I am a CS student myself and I know exactly what my
college
> > teaches. They teach you Visual Basic, html with Javascript, Visual C++,
MS
> > SQL, MS Access, and you get the point.
> > Almost everything is now Microsoft this, and Microsoft that. In fact all
the
> > computers in the CS labs have Windows NT on them.
> > They use to offer Unix C programming courses, but I don't think they do
any
> > more. Been a while since I stepped into a class room, and when I went
> > through they were just making the switch to MS everything.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Amanda Lee <amanda@shellworld.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 9:36 AM
> > Subject: Re: Computer Science
> >
> >
> > > Nope, Unix, Mainframes aren't standard anymore. The college grads we
get
> > > these days at Verizon have no clue what Unix or Mainframes are all
about.
> > > Everything is taught on a Windows-based Platform. I believe JAVA is
> > > taught, probably Visual Basic, Maybe sometimes C Language but usually
C
> > > Plus Plus which was actually abandoned in the project I work on for
> > > straight C Language.
> > >
> > > I would think in the future though, there will be a change back to at
> > > least teaching Linux since it can run on a less expensive platform.
It's
> > > pretty disgraceful how the content of Computer Sciences education has
been
> > > degraded and these kids coming out have an ego bigger than life and
think
> > > they can take on the World in a day!
> > >
> > > They really struggle when they can't understand how to program and the
> > > quality of code coming out is pretty awful. There is even this
mentality
> > > in the Corporate World which indicates that one can learn everything
they
> > > need to on the job and yet they can't figure out why there are so
many
> > > problems with efficiency and the costs resulting from poor efficiency.
> > >
> > > Amanda Lee
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, 14 Mar 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Chris,
> > > > I'm not going to get involved in the "bookshare wars', but since you
> > were
> > > > chastizing others on this list because most people use WINDOWS and
not
> > > > linux, I think its only fair to point out that your computer science
> > > > department is very nonstandard. Though I am a meteorologist, not a
> > > > computer science person, I know many computer science students in
the
> > past
> > > > and the present. Teaching WINDOWS programming is very nonstandard.
I
> > > > would guess that at least 90 percent of the schools teach
programming on
> > a
> > > > UNIX variant of some kind. In the past thre was a fair amount of
people
> > > > using VMS. However, a lot of beginning C and C++ classes did use
> > > > Turbo/Borland. WINDOWS programming is much more difficult than UNIX
> > > > programming, so I suppose you are to be congratulated for making it
> > > > through such a tough curriculum.
> > > >
> > > > Jim Wantz
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
--
It is better to give then to receive. You don't believe me, just ask a
boxer.
Richard
_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread* Re: Computer Science
` Amanda Lee
@ ` Bruce Noblick
` Richard Villa
0 siblings, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread
From: Bruce Noblick @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: speakup
Hi!
I couldn't resist jumping in here. First, I miss assembler language
programming. I know it isn't standard, it doesn't lend itself to structured
techniques and all of that but it is how things eventually get done inside
the computer and I guess that is what I like. I have worked with IBM
360/370 assembler, Unisys 1100/2200/4800 assembler, PC assemblers back as
far as the 8080 and Z80 with CP/M and of course the rest of the Intel stuff
under MSDOS and liked them all. I know this list is supposed to be about
other things but assembler language is so close to my heart that I couldn't
resist.
Enjoy!
Bruce
----- Original Message -----
From: "Amanda Lee" <amanda@shellworld.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 6:39 PM
Subject: Re: Computer Science
Amen! Richard, I miss it and would love to go back to coding and maintaining
Assembler code again!
Amanda Lee
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Villa" <rvilla1@swbell.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 6:02 PM
Subject: Re: Computer Science
I wonder when the last time anyone did any real programming not just
coding using a language like assembler.
I don't believe anyone knows what programming is until they have to
write in an assembly language.
On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, Johan
Bergström wrote:
> In sweden the universities teach lisp/ada/c/c++ and other programming
> languages. Not IDE's. At least the ones I know about. There are separate
> windows programming classes, at some places, which are specially for
> people who enjoy that kind of stuff, where they debug the windows kernel
> using softice and stuff like that. They run most of their server in a *nix
> based enviroment.
>
> johbe
>
> On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, Thomas Ward wrote:
>
> > Amanda so true. I am a CS student myself and I know exactly what my
college
> > teaches. They teach you Visual Basic, html with Javascript, Visual C++,
MS
> > SQL, MS Access, and you get the point.
> > Almost everything is now Microsoft this, and Microsoft that. In fact all
the
> > computers in the CS labs have Windows NT on them.
> > They use to offer Unix C programming courses, but I don't think they do
any
> > more. Been a while since I stepped into a class room, and when I went
> > through they were just making the switch to MS everything.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Amanda Lee <amanda@shellworld.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 9:36 AM
> > Subject: Re: Computer Science
> >
> >
> > > Nope, Unix, Mainframes aren't standard anymore. The college grads we
get
> > > these days at Verizon have no clue what Unix or Mainframes are all
about.
> > > Everything is taught on a Windows-based Platform. I believe JAVA is
> > > taught, probably Visual Basic, Maybe sometimes C Language but usually
C
> > > Plus Plus which was actually abandoned in the project I work on for
> > > straight C Language.
> > >
> > > I would think in the future though, there will be a change back to at
> > > least teaching Linux since it can run on a less expensive platform.
It's
> > > pretty disgraceful how the content of Computer Sciences education has
been
> > > degraded and these kids coming out have an ego bigger than life and
think
> > > they can take on the World in a day!
> > >
> > > They really struggle when they can't understand how to program and the
> > > quality of code coming out is pretty awful. There is even this
mentality
> > > in the Corporate World which indicates that one can learn everything
they
> > > need to on the job and yet they can't figure out why there are so
many
> > > problems with efficiency and the costs resulting from poor efficiency.
> > >
> > > Amanda Lee
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, 14 Mar 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Chris,
> > > > I'm not going to get involved in the "bookshare wars', but since you
> > were
> > > > chastizing others on this list because most people use WINDOWS and
not
> > > > linux, I think its only fair to point out that your computer science
> > > > department is very nonstandard. Though I am a meteorologist, not a
> > > > computer science person, I know many computer science students in
the
> > past
> > > > and the present. Teaching WINDOWS programming is very nonstandard.
I
> > > > would guess that at least 90 percent of the schools teach
programming on
> > a
> > > > UNIX variant of some kind. In the past thre was a fair amount of
people
> > > > using VMS. However, a lot of beginning C and C++ classes did use
> > > > Turbo/Borland. WINDOWS programming is much more difficult than UNIX
> > > > programming, so I suppose you are to be congratulated for making it
> > > > through such a tough curriculum.
> > > >
> > > > Jim Wantz
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
--
It is better to give then to receive. You don't believe me, just ask a
boxer.
Richard
_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread* Re: Computer Science
` Bruce Noblick
@ ` Richard Villa
` Amanda Lee
0 siblings, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread
From: Richard Villa @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: speakup
Actually, you can do structured programming in assembly. When I was
with the airlines, we were required to write all of the reservations
system programs in a structured way.
On Sat, 16 Mar 2002, Bruce Noblick
wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I couldn't resist jumping in here. First, I miss assembler language
> programming. I know it isn't standard, it doesn't lend itself to structured
> techniques and all of that but it is how things eventually get done inside
> the computer and I guess that is what I like. I have worked with IBM
> 360/370 assembler, Unisys 1100/2200/4800 assembler, PC assemblers back as
> far as the 8080 and Z80 with CP/M and of course the rest of the Intel stuff
> under MSDOS and liked them all. I know this list is supposed to be about
> other things but assembler language is so close to my heart that I couldn't
> resist.
>
> Enjoy!
> Bruce
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Amanda Lee" <amanda@shellworld.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 6:39 PM
> Subject: Re: Computer Science
>
>
> Amen! Richard, I miss it and would love to go back to coding and maintaining
> Assembler code again!
>
> Amanda Lee
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Richard Villa" <rvilla1@swbell.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 6:02 PM
> Subject: Re: Computer Science
>
>
> I wonder when the last time anyone did any real programming not just
> coding using a language like assembler.
>
> I don't believe anyone knows what programming is until they have to
> write in an assembly language.
> On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, Johan
> Bergström wrote:
>
> > In sweden the universities teach lisp/ada/c/c++ and other programming
> > languages. Not IDE's. At least the ones I know about. There are separate
> > windows programming classes, at some places, which are specially for
> > people who enjoy that kind of stuff, where they debug the windows kernel
> > using softice and stuff like that. They run most of their server in a *nix
> > based enviroment.
> >
> > johbe
> >
> > On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, Thomas Ward wrote:
> >
> > > Amanda so true. I am a CS student myself and I know exactly what my
> college
> > > teaches. They teach you Visual Basic, html with Javascript, Visual C++,
> MS
> > > SQL, MS Access, and you get the point.
> > > Almost everything is now Microsoft this, and Microsoft that. In fact all
> the
> > > computers in the CS labs have Windows NT on them.
> > > They use to offer Unix C programming courses, but I don't think they do
> any
> > > more. Been a while since I stepped into a class room, and when I went
> > > through they were just making the switch to MS everything.
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Amanda Lee <amanda@shellworld.net>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 9:36 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Computer Science
> > >
> > >
> > > > Nope, Unix, Mainframes aren't standard anymore. The college grads we
> get
> > > > these days at Verizon have no clue what Unix or Mainframes are all
> about.
> > > > Everything is taught on a Windows-based Platform. I believe JAVA is
> > > > taught, probably Visual Basic, Maybe sometimes C Language but usually
> C
> > > > Plus Plus which was actually abandoned in the project I work on for
> > > > straight C Language.
> > > >
> > > > I would think in the future though, there will be a change back to at
> > > > least teaching Linux since it can run on a less expensive platform.
> It's
> > > > pretty disgraceful how the content of Computer Sciences education has
> been
> > > > degraded and these kids coming out have an ego bigger than life and
> think
> > > > they can take on the World in a day!
> > > >
> > > > They really struggle when they can't understand how to program and the
> > > > quality of code coming out is pretty awful. There is even this
> mentality
> > > > in the Corporate World which indicates that one can learn everything
> they
> > > > need to on the job and yet they can't figure out why there are so
> many
> > > > problems with efficiency and the costs resulting from poor efficiency.
> > > >
> > > > Amanda Lee
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, 14 Mar 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Chris,
> > > > > I'm not going to get involved in the "bookshare wars', but since you
> > > were
> > > > > chastizing others on this list because most people use WINDOWS and
> not
> > > > > linux, I think its only fair to point out that your computer science
> > > > > department is very nonstandard. Though I am a meteorologist, not a
> > > > > computer science person, I know many computer science students in
> the
> > > past
> > > > > and the present. Teaching WINDOWS programming is very nonstandard.
> I
> > > > > would guess that at least 90 percent of the schools teach
> programming on
> > > a
> > > > > UNIX variant of some kind. In the past thre was a fair amount of
> people
> > > > > using VMS. However, a lot of beginning C and C++ classes did use
> > > > > Turbo/Borland. WINDOWS programming is much more difficult than UNIX
> > > > > programming, so I suppose you are to be congratulated for making it
> > > > > through such a tough curriculum.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jim Wantz
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> --
> It is better to give then to receive. You don't believe me, just ask a
> boxer.
>
> Richard
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
--
It is better to give then to receive. You don't believe me, just ask a
boxer.
Richard
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread* Re: Computer Science
` Richard Villa
@ ` Amanda Lee
0 siblings, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: Amanda Lee @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: speakup
Absolutely and we were likewise required to write in structured form at the
IRS and had other standards which enabled us to effectively maintain code.
Now a couple of years ago when I reverse-engineered some old NYNEX
Assembler Code for Verizon, that was another story! Obscure, no comments
which indicated who updated and when, comments were not consistent so I
literally had to dig into the code to figure out what was going on.
Most of the code is written for a 360 and it doesn't utilize methods which
better utilize the 64-bit word ... pretty scarey code!
Amanda Lee
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Villa" <rvilla1@swbell.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2002 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: Computer Science
Actually, you can do structured programming in assembly. When I was
with the airlines, we were required to write all of the reservations
system programs in a structured way.
On Sat, 16 Mar 2002, Bruce Noblick
wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I couldn't resist jumping in here. First, I miss assembler language
> programming. I know it isn't standard, it doesn't lend itself to
structured
> techniques and all of that but it is how things eventually get done inside
> the computer and I guess that is what I like. I have worked with IBM
> 360/370 assembler, Unisys 1100/2200/4800 assembler, PC assemblers back as
> far as the 8080 and Z80 with CP/M and of course the rest of the Intel
stuff
> under MSDOS and liked them all. I know this list is supposed to be about
> other things but assembler language is so close to my heart that I
couldn't
> resist.
>
> Enjoy!
> Bruce
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Amanda Lee" <amanda@shellworld.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 6:39 PM
> Subject: Re: Computer Science
>
>
> Amen! Richard, I miss it and would love to go back to coding and
maintaining
> Assembler code again!
>
> Amanda Lee
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Richard Villa" <rvilla1@swbell.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 6:02 PM
> Subject: Re: Computer Science
>
>
> I wonder when the last time anyone did any real programming not just
> coding using a language like assembler.
>
> I don't believe anyone knows what programming is until they have to
> write in an assembly language.
> On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, Johan
> Bergström wrote:
>
> > In sweden the universities teach lisp/ada/c/c++ and other programming
> > languages. Not IDE's. At least the ones I know about. There are separate
> > windows programming classes, at some places, which are specially for
> > people who enjoy that kind of stuff, where they debug the windows kernel
> > using softice and stuff like that. They run most of their server in a
*nix
> > based enviroment.
> >
> > johbe
> >
> > On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, Thomas Ward wrote:
> >
> > > Amanda so true. I am a CS student myself and I know exactly what my
> college
> > > teaches. They teach you Visual Basic, html with Javascript, Visual
C++,
> MS
> > > SQL, MS Access, and you get the point.
> > > Almost everything is now Microsoft this, and Microsoft that. In fact
all
> the
> > > computers in the CS labs have Windows NT on them.
> > > They use to offer Unix C programming courses, but I don't think they
do
> any
> > > more. Been a while since I stepped into a class room, and when I went
> > > through they were just making the switch to MS everything.
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Amanda Lee <amanda@shellworld.net>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 9:36 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Computer Science
> > >
> > >
> > > > Nope, Unix, Mainframes aren't standard anymore. The college grads
we
> get
> > > > these days at Verizon have no clue what Unix or Mainframes are all
> about.
> > > > Everything is taught on a Windows-based Platform. I believe JAVA is
> > > > taught, probably Visual Basic, Maybe sometimes C Language but
usually
> C
> > > > Plus Plus which was actually abandoned in the project I work on for
> > > > straight C Language.
> > > >
> > > > I would think in the future though, there will be a change back to
at
> > > > least teaching Linux since it can run on a less expensive platform.
> It's
> > > > pretty disgraceful how the content of Computer Sciences education
has
> been
> > > > degraded and these kids coming out have an ego bigger than life and
> think
> > > > they can take on the World in a day!
> > > >
> > > > They really struggle when they can't understand how to program and
the
> > > > quality of code coming out is pretty awful. There is even this
> mentality
> > > > in the Corporate World which indicates that one can learn everything
> they
> > > > need to on the job and yet they can't figure out why there are so
> many
> > > > problems with efficiency and the costs resulting from poor
efficiency.
> > > >
> > > > Amanda Lee
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, 14 Mar 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Chris,
> > > > > I'm not going to get involved in the "bookshare wars', but since
you
> > > were
> > > > > chastizing others on this list because most people use WINDOWS and
> not
> > > > > linux, I think its only fair to point out that your computer
science
> > > > > department is very nonstandard. Though I am a meteorologist, not
a
> > > > > computer science person, I know many computer science students in
> the
> > > past
> > > > > and the present. Teaching WINDOWS programming is very
nonstandard.
> I
> > > > > would guess that at least 90 percent of the schools teach
> programming on
> > > a
> > > > > UNIX variant of some kind. In the past thre was a fair amount of
> people
> > > > > using VMS. However, a lot of beginning C and C++ classes did use
> > > > > Turbo/Borland. WINDOWS programming is much more difficult than
UNIX
> > > > > programming, so I suppose you are to be congratulated for making
it
> > > > > through such a tough curriculum.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jim Wantz
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> --
> It is better to give then to receive. You don't believe me, just ask a
> boxer.
>
> Richard
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
--
It is better to give then to receive. You don't believe me, just ask a
boxer.
Richard
_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: Computer Science
` Richard Villa
` Amanda Lee
@ ` jwantz
1 sibling, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: jwantz @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: speakup
Hi Richard,
Yes, assembly really helped me, particularly with C. If you understand
register indexing and pointers, the concept of pointers in C really
isn't much of a problem.
I have to admit its been a long time since I've actually written in
assembly.
Jim Wantz
On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, Richard Villa wrote:
> I wonder when the last time anyone did any real programming not just
> coding using a language like assembler.
>
> I don't believe anyone knows what programming is until they have to
> write in an assembly language.
> On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, Johan
> Bergström wrote:
>
> > In sweden the universities teach lisp/ada/c/c++ and other programming
> > languages. Not IDE's. At least the ones I know about. There are separate
> > windows programming classes, at some places, which are specially for
> > people who enjoy that kind of stuff, where they debug the windows kernel
> > using softice and stuff like that. They run most of their server in a *nix
> > based enviroment.
> >
> > johbe
> >
> > On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, Thomas Ward wrote:
> >
> > > Amanda so true. I am a CS student myself and I know exactly what my college
> > > teaches. They teach you Visual Basic, html with Javascript, Visual C++, MS
> > > SQL, MS Access, and you get the point.
> > > Almost everything is now Microsoft this, and Microsoft that. In fact all the
> > > computers in the CS labs have Windows NT on them.
> > > They use to offer Unix C programming courses, but I don't think they do any
> > > more. Been a while since I stepped into a class room, and when I went
> > > through they were just making the switch to MS everything.
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Amanda Lee <amanda@shellworld.net>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 9:36 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Computer Science
> > >
> > >
> > > > Nope, Unix, Mainframes aren't standard anymore. The college grads we get
> > > > these days at Verizon have no clue what Unix or Mainframes are all about.
> > > > Everything is taught on a Windows-based Platform. I believe JAVA is
> > > > taught, probably Visual Basic, Maybe sometimes C Language but usually C
> > > > Plus Plus which was actually abandoned in the project I work on for
> > > > straight C Language.
> > > >
> > > > I would think in the future though, there will be a change back to at
> > > > least teaching Linux since it can run on a less expensive platform. It's
> > > > pretty disgraceful how the content of Computer Sciences education has been
> > > > degraded and these kids coming out have an ego bigger than life and think
> > > > they can take on the World in a day!
> > > >
> > > > They really struggle when they can't understand how to program and the
> > > > quality of code coming out is pretty awful. There is even this mentality
> > > > in the Corporate World which indicates that one can learn everything they
> > > > need to on the job and yet they can't figure out why there are so many
> > > > problems with efficiency and the costs resulting from poor efficiency.
> > > >
> > > > Amanda Lee
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, 14 Mar 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Chris,
> > > > > I'm not going to get involved in the "bookshare wars', but since you
> > > were
> > > > > chastizing others on this list because most people use WINDOWS and not
> > > > > linux, I think its only fair to point out that your computer science
> > > > > department is very nonstandard. Though I am a meteorologist, not a
> > > > > computer science person, I know many computer science students in the
> > > past
> > > > > and the present. Teaching WINDOWS programming is very nonstandard. I
> > > > > would guess that at least 90 percent of the schools teach programming on
> > > a
> > > > > UNIX variant of some kind. In the past thre was a fair amount of people
> > > > > using VMS. However, a lot of beginning C and C++ classes did use
> > > > > Turbo/Borland. WINDOWS programming is much more difficult than UNIX
> > > > > programming, so I suppose you are to be congratulated for making it
> > > > > through such a tough curriculum.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jim Wantz
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: Computer Science
` Thomas Ward
` Johan Bergström
@ ` Igor Gueths
` Alex Snow
` jwantz
2 siblings, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread
From: Igor Gueths @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: speakup
Hi Thomas. I can agree with you on that one. Even though I am not in college yet and am still looking around, I'm looking to get into the same field. I'm encountering the same things. Here's an example. I was looking to apply to New England Tech next year out in Rhode Island. I talked to the admissions guy about what I knew and what I didn't know. I told him that I was interested in programming under Linux with C or C++. He gave me a list of courses and guess what, all winblows! Why don't colleges offer Linux stuff anymore? Its much less expensive for the machines, because Linux has much less stringent hardware requirements then Microshaft. You might be asking what I'm trying to say from all this? Well the answer is quite simple. If you learn programming with Linux yourself like I am doing with C, there aren't many people in this field. Therefore, there's the possibility that you'll get hired, because especially right now that companies are realizing that Linux is a better alternative, there is a higher demand for Linux users. Thus, you could get hired because you know Linux. I hope that this post doesn't offend anyone at all, I'm just trying to contribute to Thomas's argument by saying that I totally agree with what he is saying. Anyone please feel free to add to what I've said, or correct me if you want to.
----- Original Message -----
From: Thomas Ward <tward@bright.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 10:51 AM
Subject: Re: Computer Science
> Amanda so true. I am a CS student myself and I know exactly what my college
> teaches. They teach you Visual Basic, html with Javascript, Visual C++, MS
> SQL, MS Access, and you get the point.
> Almost everything is now Microsoft this, and Microsoft that. In fact all the
> computers in the CS labs have Windows NT on them.
> They use to offer Unix C programming courses, but I don't think they do any
> more. Been a while since I stepped into a class room, and when I went
> through they were just making the switch to MS everything.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Amanda Lee <amanda@shellworld.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 9:36 AM
> Subject: Re: Computer Science
>
>
> > Nope, Unix, Mainframes aren't standard anymore. The college grads we get
> > these days at Verizon have no clue what Unix or Mainframes are all about.
> > Everything is taught on a Windows-based Platform. I believe JAVA is
> > taught, probably Visual Basic, Maybe sometimes C Language but usually C
> > Plus Plus which was actually abandoned in the project I work on for
> > straight C Language.
> >
> > I would think in the future though, there will be a change back to at
> > least teaching Linux since it can run on a less expensive platform. It's
> > pretty disgraceful how the content of Computer Sciences education has been
> > degraded and these kids coming out have an ego bigger than life and think
> > they can take on the World in a day!
> >
> > They really struggle when they can't understand how to program and the
> > quality of code coming out is pretty awful. There is even this mentality
> > in the Corporate World which indicates that one can learn everything they
> > need to on the job and yet they can't figure out why there are so many
> > problems with efficiency and the costs resulting from poor efficiency.
> >
> > Amanda Lee
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 14 Mar 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Chris,
> > > I'm not going to get involved in the "bookshare wars', but since you
> were
> > > chastizing others on this list because most people use WINDOWS and not
> > > linux, I think its only fair to point out that your computer science
> > > department is very nonstandard. Though I am a meteorologist, not a
> > > computer science person, I know many computer science students in the
> past
> > > and the present. Teaching WINDOWS programming is very nonstandard. I
> > > would guess that at least 90 percent of the schools teach programming on
> a
> > > UNIX variant of some kind. In the past thre was a fair amount of people
> > > using VMS. However, a lot of beginning C and C++ classes did use
> > > Turbo/Borland. WINDOWS programming is much more difficult than UNIX
> > > programming, so I suppose you are to be congratulated for making it
> > > through such a tough curriculum.
> > >
> > > Jim Wantz
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread* Re: Computer Science
` Igor Gueths
@ ` Alex Snow
0 siblings, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: Alex Snow @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: speakup
Hi.
I also agree. My high school offers c++, and soon, Java. I am taking a
class in html witch is interesting, but plan to go into the hardware field
instead of software. I think that my knoledge of linux may help me in the
workplace since so many big companys are based on a linux foundation.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Igor Gueths" <igueths@yahoo.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 2:43 PM
Subject: Re: Computer Science
Hi Thomas. I can agree with you on that one. Even though I am not in college
yet and am still looking around, I'm looking to get into the same field. I'm
encountering the same things. Here's an example. I was looking to apply to
New England Tech next year out in Rhode Island. I talked to the admissions
guy about what I knew and what I didn't know. I told him that I was
interested in programming under Linux with C or C++. He gave me a list of
courses and guess what, all winblows! Why don't colleges offer Linux stuff
anymore? Its much less expensive for the machines, because Linux has much
less stringent hardware requirements then Microshaft. You might be asking
what I'm trying to say from all this? Well the answer is quite simple. If
you learn programming with Linux yourself like I am doing with C, there
aren't many people in this field. Therefore, there's the possibility that
you'll get hired, because especially right now that companies are realizing
that Linux is a better alternative, there is a higher demand for Linux
users. Thus, you could get hired because you know Linux. I hope that this
post doesn't offend anyone at all, I'm just trying to contribute to Thomas's
argument by saying that I totally agree with what he is saying. Anyone
please feel free to add to what I've said, or correct me if you want to.
----- Original Message -----
From: Thomas Ward <tward@bright.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 10:51 AM
Subject: Re: Computer Science
> Amanda so true. I am a CS student myself and I know exactly what my
college
> teaches. They teach you Visual Basic, html with Javascript, Visual C++,
MS
> SQL, MS Access, and you get the point.
> Almost everything is now Microsoft this, and Microsoft that. In fact all
the
> computers in the CS labs have Windows NT on them.
> They use to offer Unix C programming courses, but I don't think they do
any
> more. Been a while since I stepped into a class room, and when I went
> through they were just making the switch to MS everything.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Amanda Lee <amanda@shellworld.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 9:36 AM
> Subject: Re: Computer Science
>
>
> > Nope, Unix, Mainframes aren't standard anymore. The college grads we
get
> > these days at Verizon have no clue what Unix or Mainframes are all
about.
> > Everything is taught on a Windows-based Platform. I believe JAVA is
> > taught, probably Visual Basic, Maybe sometimes C Language but usually C
> > Plus Plus which was actually abandoned in the project I work on for
> > straight C Language.
> >
> > I would think in the future though, there will be a change back to at
> > least teaching Linux since it can run on a less expensive platform.
It's
> > pretty disgraceful how the content of Computer Sciences education has
been
> > degraded and these kids coming out have an ego bigger than life and
think
> > they can take on the World in a day!
> >
> > They really struggle when they can't understand how to program and the
> > quality of code coming out is pretty awful. There is even this
mentality
> > in the Corporate World which indicates that one can learn everything
they
> > need to on the job and yet they can't figure out why there are so many
> > problems with efficiency and the costs resulting from poor efficiency.
> >
> > Amanda Lee
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 14 Mar 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Chris,
> > > I'm not going to get involved in the "bookshare wars', but since you
> were
> > > chastizing others on this list because most people use WINDOWS and not
> > > linux, I think its only fair to point out that your computer science
> > > department is very nonstandard. Though I am a meteorologist, not a
> > > computer science person, I know many computer science students in the
> past
> > > and the present. Teaching WINDOWS programming is very nonstandard. I
> > > would guess that at least 90 percent of the schools teach programming
on
> a
> > > UNIX variant of some kind. In the past thre was a fair amount of
people
> > > using VMS. However, a lot of beginning C and C++ classes did use
> > > Turbo/Borland. WINDOWS programming is much more difficult than UNIX
> > > programming, so I suppose you are to be congratulated for making it
> > > through such a tough curriculum.
> > >
> > > Jim Wantz
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: Computer Science
` Thomas Ward
` Johan Bergström
` Igor Gueths
@ ` jwantz
2 siblings, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: jwantz @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: speakup
Hi Thomas,
Then how do they teach operating systems? What equivalent is there to
"UNIX Operating Systems" by Maurice Bach? Or don't they bother?
Jim
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: Computer Science
` Amanda Lee
` Thomas Ward
@ ` jwantz
` Gregory Nowak
` Victor Tsaran
3 siblings, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: jwantz @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: speakup
Hi Amanda,
You think you are screwed up there our situation in NWS is even worse.
We have half of our meteorologists around here trying to program in
FORTRAN (the only language they know) and the other half try to program
in C, C++ or esql/c that they don't know and have to learn on the job.
Then our computer specialists and computer science students are often
expected to program in FORTRAN which they don't know. Then we have a
computer programmer who is a contractor who loves to use numerous goto
statements in C. When we used to have code reviews nobody but Joe Lang
(a blind programmer) and me used to complain about this practice.
Grrrr!
Jim
On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:
> Nope, Unix, Mainframes aren't standard anymore. The college grads we get
> these days at Verizon have no clue what Unix or Mainframes are all about.
> Everything is taught on a Windows-based Platform. I believe JAVA is
> taught, probably Visual Basic, Maybe sometimes C Language but usually C
> Plus Plus which was actually abandoned in the project I work on for
> straight C Language.
>
> I would think in the future though, there will be a change back to at
> least teaching Linux since it can run on a less expensive platform. It's
> pretty disgraceful how the content of Computer Sciences education has been
> degraded and these kids coming out have an ego bigger than life and think
> they can take on the World in a day!
>
> They really struggle when they can't understand how to program and the
> quality of code coming out is pretty awful. There is even this mentality
> in the Corporate World which indicates that one can learn everything they
> need to on the job and yet they can't figure out why there are so many
> problems with efficiency and the costs resulting from poor efficiency.
>
> Amanda Lee
>
>
>
> On Thu, 14 Mar 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
>
> > Hi Chris,
> > I'm not going to get involved in the "bookshare wars', but since you were
> > chastizing others on this list because most people use WINDOWS and not
> > linux, I think its only fair to point out that your computer science
> > department is very nonstandard. Though I am a meteorologist, not a
> > computer science person, I know many computer science students in the past
> > and the present. Teaching WINDOWS programming is very nonstandard. I
> > would guess that at least 90 percent of the schools teach programming on a
> > UNIX variant of some kind. In the past thre was a fair amount of people
> > using VMS. However, a lot of beginning C and C++ classes did use
> > Turbo/Borland. WINDOWS programming is much more difficult than UNIX
> > programming, so I suppose you are to be congratulated for making it
> > through such a tough curriculum.
> >
> > Jim Wantz
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread* Re: Computer Science
` Amanda Lee
` Thomas Ward
` jwantz
@ ` Gregory Nowak
` Victor Tsaran
3 siblings, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: Gregory Nowak @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: speakup
At my university, they teach c++ and fortran on sun-os. I think the later courses are taught in windows, but am not totally sure about that. In my high school structered programming and AP computer science ab classes were taught on macs with code warrior. In fact, I was the only one in a class of about 40 who used a windows machine for which I was envied by the mac haters.
Amanda, when I used to live in the dorms for a year, I had a room mate like the people you describe. He was a senior in computer engineering, and was very full of and impressed with himself. Yet, he didn't know how to add a new hard drive to his computer. He thought you just plug in the ribbon, and your set. He was actually very astonished when his blind room mate along with one of his sighted friends did the job for him correctly (shy smile). Well, I think I've ranted and bragged enough.
Greg
On Thu, Mar 14, 2002 at 09:36:36AM -0500, Amanda Lee wrote:
> Nope, Unix, Mainframes aren't standard anymore. The college grads we get
> these days at Verizon have no clue what Unix or Mainframes are all about.
> Everything is taught on a Windows-based Platform. I believe JAVA is
> taught, probably Visual Basic, Maybe sometimes C Language but usually C
> Plus Plus which was actually abandoned in the project I work on for
> straight C Language.
>
> I would think in the future though, there will be a change back to at
> least teaching Linux since it can run on a less expensive platform. It's
> pretty disgraceful how the content of Computer Sciences education has been
> degraded and these kids coming out have an ego bigger than life and think
> they can take on the World in a day!
>
> They really struggle when they can't understand how to program and the
> quality of code coming out is pretty awful. There is even this mentality
> in the Corporate World which indicates that one can learn everything they
> need to on the job and yet they can't figure out why there are so many
> problems with efficiency and the costs resulting from poor efficiency.
>
> Amanda Lee
>
>
>
> On Thu, 14 Mar 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
>
> > Hi Chris,
> > I'm not going to get involved in the "bookshare wars', but since you were
> > chastizing others on this list because most people use WINDOWS and not
> > linux, I think its only fair to point out that your computer science
> > department is very nonstandard. Though I am a meteorologist, not a
> > computer science person, I know many computer science students in the past
> > and the present. Teaching WINDOWS programming is very nonstandard. I
> > would guess that at least 90 percent of the schools teach programming on a
> > UNIX variant of some kind. In the past thre was a fair amount of people
> > using VMS. However, a lot of beginning C and C++ classes did use
> > Turbo/Borland. WINDOWS programming is much more difficult than UNIX
> > programming, so I suppose you are to be congratulated for making it
> > through such a tough curriculum.
> >
> > Jim Wantz
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread* Re: Computer Science
` Amanda Lee
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
` Gregory Nowak
@ ` Victor Tsaran
` Amanda Lee
` Brian Borowski
3 siblings, 2 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: Victor Tsaran @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: speakup
Amanda, you are right. I met a lot of so-called "hard coders" during my
studies at the university who thought that they could do everything.I
graduated just a year ago and at my university, Temple University in Philly,
Visual C++ was only a small fraction of the program. Mostly C, Assembly and
C++, but on Unix and VMS. We were given a chance to try Visual C on Win NT
platform, but only for comparison purposes. Now I think Java is overtaking
slowly.
Vic
----- Original Message -----
From: "Amanda Lee" <amanda@shellworld.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 3:36 PM
Subject: Re: Computer Science
> Nope, Unix, Mainframes aren't standard anymore. The college grads we get
> these days at Verizon have no clue what Unix or Mainframes are all about.
> Everything is taught on a Windows-based Platform. I believe JAVA is
> taught, probably Visual Basic, Maybe sometimes C Language but usually C
> Plus Plus which was actually abandoned in the project I work on for
> straight C Language.
>
> I would think in the future though, there will be a change back to at
> least teaching Linux since it can run on a less expensive platform. It's
> pretty disgraceful how the content of Computer Sciences education has been
> degraded and these kids coming out have an ego bigger than life and think
> they can take on the World in a day!
>
> They really struggle when they can't understand how to program and the
> quality of code coming out is pretty awful. There is even this mentality
> in the Corporate World which indicates that one can learn everything they
> need to on the job and yet they can't figure out why there are so many
> problems with efficiency and the costs resulting from poor efficiency.
>
> Amanda Lee
>
>
>
> On Thu, 14 Mar 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
>
> > Hi Chris,
> > I'm not going to get involved in the "bookshare wars', but since you
were
> > chastizing others on this list because most people use WINDOWS and not
> > linux, I think its only fair to point out that your computer science
> > department is very nonstandard. Though I am a meteorologist, not a
> > computer science person, I know many computer science students in the
past
> > and the present. Teaching WINDOWS programming is very nonstandard. I
> > would guess that at least 90 percent of the schools teach programming on
a
> > UNIX variant of some kind. In the past thre was a fair amount of people
> > using VMS. However, a lot of beginning C and C++ classes did use
> > Turbo/Borland. WINDOWS programming is much more difficult than UNIX
> > programming, so I suppose you are to be congratulated for making it
> > through such a tough curriculum.
> >
> > Jim Wantz
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread* Re: Computer Science
` Victor Tsaran
@ ` Amanda Lee
` jwantz
` Brian Borowski
1 sibling, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread
From: Amanda Lee @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: speakup
At least you were taught the more difficult and, in the case of Assembler
Language, more efficient. C is not really an efficient language because
it carries with it a lt of overhead. However, as compared with Visual C,
Visual Basic, JAVA, Oracle, Access and others, C is preferable.
I have over 25 years experience in Software Development and maintenance.
I have coded in a few different languages on various platforms except
Unix/Linux which is where I'm a newbie these days. I guess my fun time
was when I programmed Assembler Language applications on IBM Mainframes
for about 9 years.
The trend is to place too much emphasis upon what I call code in a box.
There's a lot of utility in this but it doesn't work as a onesize fits all
and sooner or later, if the developers involved don't know what really
comprises the inside of that boxful of code, then this is how applications
are literally thrown away and this becomes very costly.
I believe Victor, that in the longrun, what you have studied will give you
the edge.
Amanda Lee
On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, Victor Tsaran wrote:
> Amanda, you are right. I met a lot of so-called "hard coders" during my
> studies at the university who thought that they could do everything.I
> graduated just a year ago and at my university, Temple University in Philly,
> Visual C++ was only a small fraction of the program. Mostly C, Assembly and
> C++, but on Unix and VMS. We were given a chance to try Visual C on Win NT
> platform, but only for comparison purposes. Now I think Java is overtaking
> slowly.
> Vic
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Amanda Lee" <amanda@shellworld.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 3:36 PM
> Subject: Re: Computer Science
>
>
> > Nope, Unix, Mainframes aren't standard anymore. The college grads we get
> > these days at Verizon have no clue what Unix or Mainframes are all about.
> > Everything is taught on a Windows-based Platform. I believe JAVA is
> > taught, probably Visual Basic, Maybe sometimes C Language but usually C
> > Plus Plus which was actually abandoned in the project I work on for
> > straight C Language.
> >
> > I would think in the future though, there will be a change back to at
> > least teaching Linux since it can run on a less expensive platform. It's
> > pretty disgraceful how the content of Computer Sciences education has been
> > degraded and these kids coming out have an ego bigger than life and think
> > they can take on the World in a day!
> >
> > They really struggle when they can't understand how to program and the
> > quality of code coming out is pretty awful. There is even this mentality
> > in the Corporate World which indicates that one can learn everything they
> > need to on the job and yet they can't figure out why there are so many
> > problems with efficiency and the costs resulting from poor efficiency.
> >
> > Amanda Lee
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 14 Mar 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Chris,
> > > I'm not going to get involved in the "bookshare wars', but since you
> were
> > > chastizing others on this list because most people use WINDOWS and not
> > > linux, I think its only fair to point out that your computer science
> > > department is very nonstandard. Though I am a meteorologist, not a
> > > computer science person, I know many computer science students in the
> past
> > > and the present. Teaching WINDOWS programming is very nonstandard. I
> > > would guess that at least 90 percent of the schools teach programming on
> a
> > > UNIX variant of some kind. In the past thre was a fair amount of people
> > > using VMS. However, a lot of beginning C and C++ classes did use
> > > Turbo/Borland. WINDOWS programming is much more difficult than UNIX
> > > programming, so I suppose you are to be congratulated for making it
> > > through such a tough curriculum.
> > >
> > > Jim Wantz
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread* Re: Computer Science
` Amanda Lee
@ ` jwantz
` Amanda Lee
0 siblings, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread
From: jwantz @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: speakup
Hi Amanda,
I agree with you--all but one comment. C at it was originally conceived
was not very efficient. However, with modern optimization techniques it
is sometimes possible to have a C program that is more efficient then
typical hand written assembly code. The problem with this type of
optimization is that it takes a very long time to compile even on a fast
machine. And no, I have never been able to write a "hello world
program" in C under DOS that can compete with my assembly version.
hello.c compiled is still more than 4000 bytes (I've gotten less under
Linux) and hello.asm produced a hello.com of 36 bytes. So I guess what
I'm saying is that I only partially disagree.
Take Care,
Jim
On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, Amanda
Lee wrote:
> At least you were taught the more difficult and, in the case of Assembler
> Language, more efficient. C is not really an efficient language because
> it carries with it a lt of overhead. However, as compared with Visual C,
> Visual Basic, JAVA, Oracle, Access and others, C is preferable.
>
> I have over 25 years experience in Software Development and maintenance.
> I have coded in a few different languages on various platforms except
> Unix/Linux which is where I'm a newbie these days. I guess my fun time
> was when I programmed Assembler Language applications on IBM Mainframes
> for about 9 years.
> The trend is to place too much emphasis upon what I call code in a box.
> There's a lot of utility in this but it doesn't work as a onesize fits all
> and sooner or later, if the developers involved don't know what really
> comprises the inside of that boxful of code, then this is how applications
> are literally thrown away and this becomes very costly.
>
> I believe Victor, that in the longrun, what you have studied will give you
> the edge.
>
> Amanda Lee
>
>
>
> On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, Victor Tsaran wrote:
>
> > Amanda, you are right. I met a lot of so-called "hard coders" during my
> > studies at the university who thought that they could do everything.I
> > graduated just a year ago and at my university, Temple University in Philly,
> > Visual C++ was only a small fraction of the program. Mostly C, Assembly and
> > C++, but on Unix and VMS. We were given a chance to try Visual C on Win NT
> > platform, but only for comparison purposes. Now I think Java is overtaking
> > slowly.
> > Vic
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Amanda Lee" <amanda@shellworld.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 3:36 PM
> > Subject: Re: Computer Science
> >
> >
> > > Nope, Unix, Mainframes aren't standard anymore. The college grads we get
> > > these days at Verizon have no clue what Unix or Mainframes are all about.
> > > Everything is taught on a Windows-based Platform. I believe JAVA is
> > > taught, probably Visual Basic, Maybe sometimes C Language but usually C
> > > Plus Plus which was actually abandoned in the project I work on for
> > > straight C Language.
> > >
> > > I would think in the future though, there will be a change back to at
> > > least teaching Linux since it can run on a less expensive platform. It's
> > > pretty disgraceful how the content of Computer Sciences education has been
> > > degraded and these kids coming out have an ego bigger than life and think
> > > they can take on the World in a day!
> > >
> > > They really struggle when they can't understand how to program and the
> > > quality of code coming out is pretty awful. There is even this mentality
> > > in the Corporate World which indicates that one can learn everything they
> > > need to on the job and yet they can't figure out why there are so many
> > > problems with efficiency and the costs resulting from poor efficiency.
> > >
> > > Amanda Lee
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, 14 Mar 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Chris,
> > > > I'm not going to get involved in the "bookshare wars', but since you
> > were
> > > > chastizing others on this list because most people use WINDOWS and not
> > > > linux, I think its only fair to point out that your computer science
> > > > department is very nonstandard. Though I am a meteorologist, not a
> > > > computer science person, I know many computer science students in the
> > past
> > > > and the present. Teaching WINDOWS programming is very nonstandard. I
> > > > would guess that at least 90 percent of the schools teach programming on
> > a
> > > > UNIX variant of some kind. In the past thre was a fair amount of people
> > > > using VMS. However, a lot of beginning C and C++ classes did use
> > > > Turbo/Borland. WINDOWS programming is much more difficult than UNIX
> > > > programming, so I suppose you are to be congratulated for making it
> > > > through such a tough curriculum.
> > > >
> > > > Jim Wantz
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread* Re: Computer Science
` jwantz
@ ` Amanda Lee
` jwantz
0 siblings, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread
From: Amanda Lee @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: speakup
Yes but you left out the CPU and Platform issues. I can tell you that C
does not run very efficiently on an IBM Mainframe for example yet IBM 370
Assembler obviously does and this is because the Assembler Language is
designed to work with the archetecture. I know of instances where certain
Function
Calls in C really bogs down an application. So you are correct to say
that the actual raw code itself may run comparably to Assembler, but not
every compiler is designed to produce efficient object code nor code which
works well with the particular CPU on the respective Platform.
Amanda Lee
On Fri, 15
Mar 2002
jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
> Hi Amanda,
> I agree with you--all but one comment. C at it was originally conceived
> was not very efficient. However, with modern optimization techniques it
> is sometimes possible to have a C program that is more efficient then
> typical hand written assembly code. The problem with this type of
> optimization is that it takes a very long time to compile even on a fast
> machine. And no, I have never been able to write a "hello world
> program" in C under DOS that can compete with my assembly version.
> hello.c compiled is still more than 4000 bytes (I've gotten less under
> Linux) and hello.asm produced a hello.com of 36 bytes. So I guess what
> I'm saying is that I only partially disagree.
>
> Take Care,
> Jim
> On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, Amanda
> Lee wrote:
>
> > At least you were taught the more difficult and, in the case of Assembler
> > Language, more efficient. C is not really an efficient language because
> > it carries with it a lt of overhead. However, as compared with Visual C,
> > Visual Basic, JAVA, Oracle, Access and others, C is preferable.
> >
> > I have over 25 years experience in Software Development and maintenance.
> > I have coded in a few different languages on various platforms except
> > Unix/Linux which is where I'm a newbie these days. I guess my fun time
> > was when I programmed Assembler Language applications on IBM Mainframes
> > for about 9 years.
> > The trend is to place too much emphasis upon what I call code in a box.
> > There's a lot of utility in this but it doesn't work as a onesize fits all
> > and sooner or later, if the developers involved don't know what really
> > comprises the inside of that boxful of code, then this is how applications
> > are literally thrown away and this becomes very costly.
> >
> > I believe Victor, that in the longrun, what you have studied will give you
> > the edge.
> >
> > Amanda Lee
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, Victor Tsaran wrote:
> >
> > > Amanda, you are right. I met a lot of so-called "hard coders" during my
> > > studies at the university who thought that they could do everything.I
> > > graduated just a year ago and at my university, Temple University in Philly,
> > > Visual C++ was only a small fraction of the program. Mostly C, Assembly and
> > > C++, but on Unix and VMS. We were given a chance to try Visual C on Win NT
> > > platform, but only for comparison purposes. Now I think Java is overtaking
> > > slowly.
> > > Vic
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Amanda Lee" <amanda@shellworld.net>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 3:36 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Computer Science
> > >
> > >
> > > > Nope, Unix, Mainframes aren't standard anymore. The college grads we get
> > > > these days at Verizon have no clue what Unix or Mainframes are all about.
> > > > Everything is taught on a Windows-based Platform. I believe JAVA is
> > > > taught, probably Visual Basic, Maybe sometimes C Language but usually C
> > > > Plus Plus which was actually abandoned in the project I work on for
> > > > straight C Language.
> > > >
> > > > I would think in the future though, there will be a change back to at
> > > > least teaching Linux since it can run on a less expensive platform. It's
> > > > pretty disgraceful how the content of Computer Sciences education has been
> > > > degraded and these kids coming out have an ego bigger than life and think
> > > > they can take on the World in a day!
> > > >
> > > > They really struggle when they can't understand how to program and the
> > > > quality of code coming out is pretty awful. There is even this mentality
> > > > in the Corporate World which indicates that one can learn everything they
> > > > need to on the job and yet they can't figure out why there are so many
> > > > problems with efficiency and the costs resulting from poor efficiency.
> > > >
> > > > Amanda Lee
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, 14 Mar 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Chris,
> > > > > I'm not going to get involved in the "bookshare wars', but since you
> > > were
> > > > > chastizing others on this list because most people use WINDOWS and not
> > > > > linux, I think its only fair to point out that your computer science
> > > > > department is very nonstandard. Though I am a meteorologist, not a
> > > > > computer science person, I know many computer science students in the
> > > past
> > > > > and the present. Teaching WINDOWS programming is very nonstandard. I
> > > > > would guess that at least 90 percent of the schools teach programming on
> > > a
> > > > > UNIX variant of some kind. In the past thre was a fair amount of people
> > > > > using VMS. However, a lot of beginning C and C++ classes did use
> > > > > Turbo/Borland. WINDOWS programming is much more difficult than UNIX
> > > > > programming, so I suppose you are to be congratulated for making it
> > > > > through such a tough curriculum.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jim Wantz
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread* Re: Computer Science
` Amanda Lee
@ ` jwantz
` Amanda Lee
0 siblings, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread
From: jwantz @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: speakup
Hey Amanda,
I guess you are talking MVS. I never had the dubious pleasure of
working on MVS but the old NWS super computers Cyber (370 clones) ran MVS.
and I knew a lot
of people who used the Cybers all of the time. I understand that their C
compiler was really bad!On Fri, 15
Jim
Mar 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:
> Yes but you left out the CPU and Platform issues. I can tell you that C
> does not run very efficiently on an IBM Mainframe for example yet IBM 370
> Assembler obviously does and this is because the Assembler Language is
> designed to work with the archetecture. I know of instances where certain
> Function
> Calls in C really bogs down an application. So you are correct to say
> that the actual raw code itself may run comparably to Assembler, but not
> every compiler is designed to produce efficient object code nor code which
> works well with the particular CPU on the respective Platform.
>
> Amanda Lee
>
> On Fri, 15
> Mar 2002
> jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
>
> > Hi Amanda,
> > I agree with you--all but one comment. C at it was originally conceived
> > was not very efficient. However, with modern optimization techniques it
> > is sometimes possible to have a C program that is more efficient then
> > typical hand written assembly code. The problem with this type of
> > optimization is that it takes a very long time to compile even on a fast
> > machine. And no, I have never been able to write a "hello world
> > program" in C under DOS that can compete with my assembly version.
> > hello.c compiled is still more than 4000 bytes (I've gotten less under
> > Linux) and hello.asm produced a hello.com of 36 bytes. So I guess what
> > I'm saying is that I only partially disagree.
> >
> > Take Care,
> > Jim
> > On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, Amanda
> > Lee wrote:
> >
> > > At least you were taught the more difficult and, in the case of Assembler
> > > Language, more efficient. C is not really an efficient language because
> > > it carries with it a lt of overhead. However, as compared with Visual C,
> > > Visual Basic, JAVA, Oracle, Access and others, C is preferable.
> > >
> > > I have over 25 years experience in Software Development and maintenance.
> > > I have coded in a few different languages on various platforms except
> > > Unix/Linux which is where I'm a newbie these days. I guess my fun time
> > > was when I programmed Assembler Language applications on IBM Mainframes
> > > for about 9 years.
> > > The trend is to place too much emphasis upon what I call code in a box.
> > > There's a lot of utility in this but it doesn't work as a onesize fits all
> > > and sooner or later, if the developers involved don't know what really
> > > comprises the inside of that boxful of code, then this is how applications
> > > are literally thrown away and this becomes very costly.
> > >
> > > I believe Victor, that in the longrun, what you have studied will give you
> > > the edge.
> > >
> > > Amanda Lee
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, Victor Tsaran wrote:
> > >
> > > > Amanda, you are right. I met a lot of so-called "hard coders" during my
> > > > studies at the university who thought that they could do everything.I
> > > > graduated just a year ago and at my university, Temple University in Philly,
> > > > Visual C++ was only a small fraction of the program. Mostly C, Assembly and
> > > > C++, but on Unix and VMS. We were given a chance to try Visual C on Win NT
> > > > platform, but only for comparison purposes. Now I think Java is overtaking
> > > > slowly.
> > > > Vic
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Amanda Lee" <amanda@shellworld.net>
> > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 3:36 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: Computer Science
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Nope, Unix, Mainframes aren't standard anymore. The college grads we get
> > > > > these days at Verizon have no clue what Unix or Mainframes are all about.
> > > > > Everything is taught on a Windows-based Platform. I believe JAVA is
> > > > > taught, probably Visual Basic, Maybe sometimes C Language but usually C
> > > > > Plus Plus which was actually abandoned in the project I work on for
> > > > > straight C Language.
> > > > >
> > > > > I would think in the future though, there will be a change back to at
> > > > > least teaching Linux since it can run on a less expensive platform. It's
> > > > > pretty disgraceful how the content of Computer Sciences education has been
> > > > > degraded and these kids coming out have an ego bigger than life and think
> > > > > they can take on the World in a day!
> > > > >
> > > > > They really struggle when they can't understand how to program and the
> > > > > quality of code coming out is pretty awful. There is even this mentality
> > > > > in the Corporate World which indicates that one can learn everything they
> > > > > need to on the job and yet they can't figure out why there are so many
> > > > > problems with efficiency and the costs resulting from poor efficiency.
> > > > >
> > > > > Amanda Lee
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, 14 Mar 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Chris,
> > > > > > I'm not going to get involved in the "bookshare wars', but since you
> > > > were
> > > > > > chastizing others on this list because most people use WINDOWS and not
> > > > > > linux, I think its only fair to point out that your computer science
> > > > > > department is very nonstandard. Though I am a meteorologist, not a
> > > > > > computer science person, I know many computer science students in the
> > > > past
> > > > > > and the present. Teaching WINDOWS programming is very nonstandard. I
> > > > > > would guess that at least 90 percent of the schools teach programming on
> > > > a
> > > > > > UNIX variant of some kind. In the past thre was a fair amount of people
> > > > > > using VMS. However, a lot of beginning C and C++ classes did use
> > > > > > Turbo/Borland. WINDOWS programming is much more difficult than UNIX
> > > > > > programming, so I suppose you are to be congratulated for making it
> > > > > > through such a tough curriculum.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jim Wantz
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread* Re: Computer Science
` jwantz
@ ` Amanda Lee
0 siblings, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: Amanda Lee @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: speakup
Yes MVS/370 and of course now it's been the 3090 series for awhile. I
can'treally be specific about details but when some funcitons of some very
critical software were re-written from ALC to C, performance detreriorated
so drastically that they had to abandon the project until pieces of the
compiler were re-written and I still don't think that the C Code ever
performed comparably.
On Fri, 15 Mar 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
> Hey Amanda,
> I guess you are talking MVS. I never had the dubious pleasure of
> working on MVS but the old NWS super computers Cyber (370 clones) ran MVS.
> and I knew a lot
> of people who used the Cybers all of the time. I understand that their C
> compiler was really bad!On Fri, 15
>
> Jim
>
> Mar 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:
>
> > Yes but you left out the CPU and Platform issues. I can tell you that C
> > does not run very efficiently on an IBM Mainframe for example yet IBM 370
> > Assembler obviously does and this is because the Assembler Language is
> > designed to work with the archetecture. I know of instances where certain
> > Function
> > Calls in C really bogs down an application. So you are correct to say
> > that the actual raw code itself may run comparably to Assembler, but not
> > every compiler is designed to produce efficient object code nor code which
> > works well with the particular CPU on the respective Platform.
> >
> > Amanda Lee
> >
> > On Fri, 15
> > Mar 2002
> > jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Amanda,
> > > I agree with you--all but one comment. C at it was originally conceived
> > > was not very efficient. However, with modern optimization techniques it
> > > is sometimes possible to have a C program that is more efficient then
> > > typical hand written assembly code. The problem with this type of
> > > optimization is that it takes a very long time to compile even on a fast
> > > machine. And no, I have never been able to write a "hello world
> > > program" in C under DOS that can compete with my assembly version.
> > > hello.c compiled is still more than 4000 bytes (I've gotten less under
> > > Linux) and hello.asm produced a hello.com of 36 bytes. So I guess what
> > > I'm saying is that I only partially disagree.
> > >
> > > Take Care,
> > > Jim
> > > On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, Amanda
> > > Lee wrote:
> > >
> > > > At least you were taught the more difficult and, in the case of Assembler
> > > > Language, more efficient. C is not really an efficient language because
> > > > it carries with it a lt of overhead. However, as compared with Visual C,
> > > > Visual Basic, JAVA, Oracle, Access and others, C is preferable.
> > > >
> > > > I have over 25 years experience in Software Development and maintenance.
> > > > I have coded in a few different languages on various platforms except
> > > > Unix/Linux which is where I'm a newbie these days. I guess my fun time
> > > > was when I programmed Assembler Language applications on IBM Mainframes
> > > > for about 9 years.
> > > > The trend is to place too much emphasis upon what I call code in a box.
> > > > There's a lot of utility in this but it doesn't work as a onesize fits all
> > > > and sooner or later, if the developers involved don't know what really
> > > > comprises the inside of that boxful of code, then this is how applications
> > > > are literally thrown away and this becomes very costly.
> > > >
> > > > I believe Victor, that in the longrun, what you have studied will give you
> > > > the edge.
> > > >
> > > > Amanda Lee
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, Victor Tsaran wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Amanda, you are right. I met a lot of so-called "hard coders" during my
> > > > > studies at the university who thought that they could do everything.I
> > > > > graduated just a year ago and at my university, Temple University in Philly,
> > > > > Visual C++ was only a small fraction of the program. Mostly C, Assembly and
> > > > > C++, but on Unix and VMS. We were given a chance to try Visual C on Win NT
> > > > > platform, but only for comparison purposes. Now I think Java is overtaking
> > > > > slowly.
> > > > > Vic
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Amanda Lee" <amanda@shellworld.net>
> > > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 3:36 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Computer Science
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Nope, Unix, Mainframes aren't standard anymore. The college grads we get
> > > > > > these days at Verizon have no clue what Unix or Mainframes are all about.
> > > > > > Everything is taught on a Windows-based Platform. I believe JAVA is
> > > > > > taught, probably Visual Basic, Maybe sometimes C Language but usually C
> > > > > > Plus Plus which was actually abandoned in the project I work on for
> > > > > > straight C Language.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I would think in the future though, there will be a change back to at
> > > > > > least teaching Linux since it can run on a less expensive platform. It's
> > > > > > pretty disgraceful how the content of Computer Sciences education has been
> > > > > > degraded and these kids coming out have an ego bigger than life and think
> > > > > > they can take on the World in a day!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > They really struggle when they can't understand how to program and the
> > > > > > quality of code coming out is pretty awful. There is even this mentality
> > > > > > in the Corporate World which indicates that one can learn everything they
> > > > > > need to on the job and yet they can't figure out why there are so many
> > > > > > problems with efficiency and the costs resulting from poor efficiency.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Amanda Lee
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, 14 Mar 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi Chris,
> > > > > > > I'm not going to get involved in the "bookshare wars', but since you
> > > > > were
> > > > > > > chastizing others on this list because most people use WINDOWS and not
> > > > > > > linux, I think its only fair to point out that your computer science
> > > > > > > department is very nonstandard. Though I am a meteorologist, not a
> > > > > > > computer science person, I know many computer science students in the
> > > > > past
> > > > > > > and the present. Teaching WINDOWS programming is very nonstandard. I
> > > > > > > would guess that at least 90 percent of the schools teach programming on
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > UNIX variant of some kind. In the past thre was a fair amount of people
> > > > > > > using VMS. However, a lot of beginning C and C++ classes did use
> > > > > > > Turbo/Borland. WINDOWS programming is much more difficult than UNIX
> > > > > > > programming, so I suppose you are to be congratulated for making it
> > > > > > > through such a tough curriculum.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Jim Wantz
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
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> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: Computer Science
` Victor Tsaran
` Amanda Lee
@ ` Brian Borowski
1 sibling, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: Brian Borowski @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: speakup
Our experience here, is similar. People taught on the MS stuff, come in
here, think they're going to make a new world for us all, that will
obsolete the current one, but then they learn after a while that netbeue
isn't the only of talking to others, and for some reason, basic MS
networking doesn't work on a large scale, and visual basic and visual C++
aren't the only languages in the world, and there's more to IP networking
then MS said, and it goes on and on.
The latest surveys and articles aren't very supportive of java taking over
the world like sun and others were supposing, and if you can do something
in java, then someone might just come along and write it in C and people
will notice just how very much faster it is in C (which just blows java
away in speed). Once again, java is a fine object-oriented language, but
OO isn't good for everything, in fact, it turns out, that it's a lot more
trouble for a lot of things, and it's also the case, that keeping things
simple when you can is certainly the best procedure to follow.
Brian Borowski
On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, Victor Tsaran wrote:
> Amanda, you are right. I met a lot of so-called "hard coders" during my
> studies at the university who thought that they could do everything.I
> graduated just a year ago and at my university, Temple University in Philly,
> Visual C++ was only a small fraction of the program. Mostly C, Assembly and
> C++, but on Unix and VMS. We were given a chance to try Visual C on Win NT
> platform, but only for comparison purposes. Now I think Java is overtaking
> slowly.
> Vic
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Amanda Lee" <amanda@shellworld.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 3:36 PM
> Subject: Re: Computer Science
>
>
> > Nope, Unix, Mainframes aren't standard anymore. The college grads we get
> > these days at Verizon have no clue what Unix or Mainframes are all about.
> > Everything is taught on a Windows-based Platform. I believe JAVA is
> > taught, probably Visual Basic, Maybe sometimes C Language but usually C
> > Plus Plus which was actually abandoned in the project I work on for
> > straight C Language.
> >
> > I would think in the future though, there will be a change back to at
> > least teaching Linux since it can run on a less expensive platform. It's
> > pretty disgraceful how the content of Computer Sciences education has been
> > degraded and these kids coming out have an ego bigger than life and think
> > they can take on the World in a day!
> >
> > They really struggle when they can't understand how to program and the
> > quality of code coming out is pretty awful. There is even this mentality
> > in the Corporate World which indicates that one can learn everything they
> > need to on the job and yet they can't figure out why there are so many
> > problems with efficiency and the costs resulting from poor efficiency.
> >
> > Amanda Lee
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 14 Mar 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Chris,
> > > I'm not going to get involved in the "bookshare wars', but since you
> were
> > > chastizing others on this list because most people use WINDOWS and not
> > > linux, I think its only fair to point out that your computer science
> > > department is very nonstandard. Though I am a meteorologist, not a
> > > computer science person, I know many computer science students in the
> past
> > > and the present. Teaching WINDOWS programming is very nonstandard. I
> > > would guess that at least 90 percent of the schools teach programming on
> a
> > > UNIX variant of some kind. In the past thre was a fair amount of people
> > > using VMS. However, a lot of beginning C and C++ classes did use
> > > Turbo/Borland. WINDOWS programming is much more difficult than UNIX
> > > programming, so I suppose you are to be congratulated for making it
> > > through such a tough curriculum.
> > >
> > > Jim Wantz
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Computer Science
@ Ameenah Ghoston
` Amanda Lee
` Janina Sajka
0 siblings, 2 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: Ameenah Ghoston @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: speakup
Hi, everyone! I have been watching the newsgroup for a while, and the
computer science topic grabbed my attention. I am at the University of
Illinois, and the computer science department teaches you theory along with
programming. In fact, the first CS. course you take, you are using Java to
learn concepts such as recursion, and other basic concepts. The next
course, you are using C++ to learn data structures such as link lists,
AVLTrees, and so on. After that, you can pick 300 level courses to try and
focus on a certain aspect of the Cs. field such compilers and programming
languages, operating systems, and the list goes on. There is a hardware
component to being a CS. major where you are using UNIX based program
to design circuits, and you even get to do some assembly programming. If
you want to be strictly hardware, then, you just major in engineering. You
have the choice of being a CS major which is very rigorous, and is similar
to the engineering program. The other option is to be a CS-statistics or
CS-mathematics major. All of the option depends on what you want to do,
and also, how good your grades. The standards here are very high. The
difficult part is trying to stay in the program.
What makes this school so great in the field of CS is that you learn more
theory then anything else. You may leave this place not knowing how to
program the best in the world but you will know the theory behind all the
concepts. No class is taught with specific focus on a operating system or
programming language. You get a very broad education when it comes to
CS. Our program is equivalent to MIT but a little cheaper.
There have been a number of blind students who have gone through the
department, and are doing very well for themselves. While accessibility is
an issue, the professors here are willing to work with you.
Furthermore, since the programs we use are all UNIX, then, you do not have
to worry about screwing with windows and JAWS. I am actually a
computer science minor and my major is history. I have taken all the
courses that every CS. major has to take. I am not trying to force my
school upon any one who is considering college, but nevertheless, I
strongly recommend that you consider this university.
Well, that is all I have to say. If you further wish to check out the CS.
department go to
http://www.cs.uiuc.edu
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: Computer Science
Ameenah Ghoston
@ ` Amanda Lee
` Janina Sajka
1 sibling, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: Amanda Lee @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: speakup
Great as this is how Conputer Sciences should be taught but unfortuneately,
many well-known universities have cut corners. I know that the foundation
of knowledge and skills you are receiving will serve you well.
I recently went to a presentation about a Masters Degree program in
Telecommunications Engineering offered from George Washington University,
Washington, DC.
I cringed when the Department Chair who presented the particulars of this
Degree program said that for a program taught to Verizon, that they would
basically water down the math content. I couldn't believe what I was
hearing as even so, some of the younger attendees started to groan about
college-level calculous and Statistics as being a
pre-requisite math requirement. Good grief! and this indicates that the
non-engineering-based CS and IT programs have weakened. I'm older than the
majority of these kids and I sure don't mind brushing up on Calculous and
Statistics as I was a good math student. But these folks couldn't even
accept it that all one really needs to do is to obtain some Pschalms
Outlines, etc. and do some studying.
Amanda Lee
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ameenah Ghoston" <ghoston@students.uiuc.edu>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 11:22 PM
Subject: Computer Science
Hi, everyone! I have been watching the newsgroup for a while, and the
computer science topic grabbed my attention. I am at the University of
Illinois, and the computer science department teaches you theory along with
programming. In fact, the first CS. course you take, you are using Java to
learn concepts such as recursion, and other basic concepts. The next
course, you are using C++ to learn data structures such as link lists,
AVLTrees, and so on. After that, you can pick 300 level courses to try and
focus on a certain aspect of the Cs. field such compilers and programming
languages, operating systems, and the list goes on. There is a hardware
component to being a CS. major where you are using UNIX based program
to design circuits, and you even get to do some assembly programming. If
you want to be strictly hardware, then, you just major in engineering. You
have the choice of being a CS major which is very rigorous, and is similar
to the engineering program. The other option is to be a CS-statistics or
CS-mathematics major. All of the option depends on what you want to do,
and also, how good your grades. The standards here are very high. The
difficult part is trying to stay in the program.
What makes this school so great in the field of CS is that you learn more
theory then anything else. You may leave this place not knowing how to
program the best in the world but you will know the theory behind all the
concepts. No class is taught with specific focus on a operating system or
programming language. You get a very broad education when it comes to
CS. Our program is equivalent to MIT but a little cheaper.
There have been a number of blind students who have gone through the
department, and are doing very well for themselves. While accessibility is
an issue, the professors here are willing to work with you.
Furthermore, since the programs we use are all UNIX, then, you do not have
to worry about screwing with windows and JAWS. I am actually a
computer science minor and my major is history. I have taken all the
courses that every CS. major has to take. I am not trying to force my
school upon any one who is considering college, but nevertheless, I
strongly recommend that you consider this university.
Well, that is all I have to say. If you further wish to check out the CS.
department go to
http://www.cs.uiuc.edu
_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: Computer Science
Ameenah Ghoston
` Amanda Lee
@ ` Janina Sajka
1 sibling, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: Janina Sajka @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: speakup
UIUC was the birthplace of the Mosaic browser. It's a very good school,
and it still leads in technology development. Easily a top ten choice,
imho.
On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, Ameenah Ghoston wrote:
> Hi, everyone! I have been watching the newsgroup for a while, and the
> computer science topic grabbed my attention. I am at the University of
> Illinois, and the computer science department teaches you theory along with
> programming. In fact, the first CS. course you take, you are using Java to
> learn concepts such as recursion, and other basic concepts. The next
> course, you are using C++ to learn data structures such as link lists,
> AVLTrees, and so on. After that, you can pick 300 level courses to try and
> focus on a certain aspect of the Cs. field such compilers and programming
> languages, operating systems, and the list goes on. There is a hardware
> component to being a CS. major where you are using UNIX based program
> to design circuits, and you even get to do some assembly programming. If
> you want to be strictly hardware, then, you just major in engineering. You
> have the choice of being a CS major which is very rigorous, and is similar
> to the engineering program. The other option is to be a CS-statistics or
> CS-mathematics major. All of the option depends on what you want to do,
> and also, how good your grades. The standards here are very high. The
> difficult part is trying to stay in the program.
>
> What makes this school so great in the field of CS is that you learn more
> theory then anything else. You may leave this place not knowing how to
> program the best in the world but you will know the theory behind all the
> concepts. No class is taught with specific focus on a operating system or
> programming language. You get a very broad education when it comes to
> CS. Our program is equivalent to MIT but a little cheaper.
> There have been a number of blind students who have gone through the
> department, and are doing very well for themselves. While accessibility is
> an issue, the professors here are willing to work with you.
> Furthermore, since the programs we use are all UNIX, then, you do not have
> to worry about screwing with windows and JAWS. I am actually a
> computer science minor and my major is history. I have taken all the
> courses that every CS. major has to take. I am not trying to force my
> school upon any one who is considering college, but nevertheless, I
> strongly recommend that you consider this university.
> Well, that is all I have to say. If you further wish to check out the CS.
> department go to
> http://www.cs.uiuc.edu
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
--
Janina Sajka, Director
Technology Research and Development
Governmental Relations Group
American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* computer science
@ Saqib Shaikh
` jwantz
0 siblings, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread
From: Saqib Shaikh @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: speakup
hi,
first off i would like to say how while my university used to be all unix
and c, it is every year more java and windows. i found it quite amusing to
log onto a windows machine and look at the start menu. we had:
perl for windows
tcl/tk for windows
python for windows
my sql
apache
open ssh
swi prolog
all of which were originally unix tools!
anyway, that's my 2 pence
saqib
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
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` jwantz
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` Alex Snow
` jwantz
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` Gregory Nowak
` Victor Tsaran
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