Red Hat Enterprise 6.2

Red Hat Enterprise 6.2

[Sean Murphy]

Hi Team,


I am going to prep for the Red Hat Admin certifications. I need to know if what screen reader is available on the console? Speakup you have to compile into the Kernel. So I am not sure if this can be done or not. Any suggestions on how to get this console to work?

I do have a serial double talk. I do not have any Linux soft synths any more. I am starting to learn Linux again for work. If anyone on the list has used Red Hat Enterprise 6.2 and know how I can install it using speech. I would be grateful.


Sean 

Re: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2

[Jason White]

Sean Murphy  <speakup@linux-speakup.org> wrote:
>
>I am going to prep for the Red Hat Admin certifications. I need to know if what screen reader is available on the console? Speakup you have to compile into the Kernel. So I am not sure if this can be
>done or not. Any suggestions on how to get this console to work?

I don't know, but have you contacted Red Hat about it? It's their
certification, after all, hence in their business interests to ensure it's
accessible to you. there might also be legal implications depending on the
laws in force in your country.

I am sure that others on this list will have advice to offer, but I think
raising the issue with Red Hat would be a very good idea not only for you but
for the benefit of others with access needs.

Re: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2

[Sean Murphy]

Jason,

Thanks for the tip. I would do this if required. First I want to find out if anyone else has done it. Rather then blazing the trail like I do with other issues I find with accessibility.


Sean from down under.

On 29/03/2013, at 5:16 PM, Jason White <jason@jasonjgw.net> wrote:

> Sean Murphy  <speakup@linux-speakup.org> wrote:
>> 
>> I am going to prep for the Red Hat Admin certifications. I need to know if what screen reader is available on the console? Speakup you have to compile into the Kernel. So I am not sure if this can be
>> done or not. Any suggestions on how to get this console to work?
> 
> I don't know, but have you contacted Red Hat about it? It's their
> certification, after all, hence in their business interests to ensure it's
> accessible to you. there might also be legal implications depending on the
> laws in force in your country.
> 
> I am sure that others on this list will have advice to offer, but I think
> raising the issue with Red Hat would be a very good idea not only for you but
> for the benefit of others with access needs.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2

[Brian Buhrow]

	hello.  For administrative tasks, you should probably learn and use
yasr for this test.  Yasr runs completely outside the kernel, so you  can
most likely build yourself an access tar file that you can drop onto the
test system and run during the tests themselves.
	For installation work, things could be trickier.  If you're allowed to
bring your own laptop into the test center and the test box has a serial
port, you could do a serial installation.  If they're using kvm or xen to
test you, then Yasr might work for that as well, see the above paragraph.
	I think the thing to do is learn as much as you can about the testing
process, play as much as you can with Red Hat on your own equipment and
discuss the issues with the testing center.  The Redhat folks may or may
not be familiar with the specific environment set up by  the testing center
since it is likely that a number of testing configurations qualify as
certified testing environments.
	Remember that hiring a reading assistant, or having them assign you
one, depending on their policy, should always be considered as well.  It's
best if you can bring your own, but some testing centers won't allow that.

Good luck.

-Brian

On Mar 29,  5:21pm, Sean Murphy wrote:
} Subject: Re: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2
} Jason,
} 
} Thanks for the tip. I would do this if required. First I want to find out if anyone else has done it. Rather then blazing the trail like I do with other issues I find with accessibility.
} 
} 
} Sean from down under.
} 
} On 29/03/2013, at 5:16 PM, Jason White <jason@jasonjgw.net> wrote:
} 
} > Sean Murphy  <speakup@linux-speakup.org> wrote:
} >> 
} >> I am going to prep for the Red Hat Admin certifications. I need to know if what screen reader is available on the console? Speakup you have to compile into the Kernel. So I am not sure if this can be
} >> done or not. Any suggestions on how to get this console to work?
} > 
} > I don't know, but have you contacted Red Hat about it? It's their
} > certification, after all, hence in their business interests to ensure it's
} > accessible to you. there might also be legal implications depending on the
} > laws in force in your country.
} > 
} > I am sure that others on this list will have advice to offer, but I think
} > raising the issue with Red Hat would be a very good idea not only for you but
} > for the benefit of others with access needs.
} > 
} > 
} > _______________________________________________
} > Speakup mailing list
} > Speakup@linux-speakup.org
} > http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
} 
} _______________________________________________
} Speakup mailing list
} Speakup@linux-speakup.org
} http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>-- End of excerpt from Sean Murphy

Re: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2

[Tony Baechler]

Jason, Red Hat has made it very clear that they have no interest in 
accessibility, so I highly doubt that just contacting them would do any 
good.  I say this from looking at their sites and finding nothing at all 
about accessibility.  They don't even ship Speakup with RHEL as far as I'm 
aware, but since it's in staging, maybe they do now.  As I recall, 6.2 is 
rather old and uses a custom kernel with a large set of patches, so I don't 
think you'll get Speakup to compile.  You could try compiling as modules and 
see if it works, but I wouldn't hold my breath.  I think the same applies to 
CentOS as well.  I'm not sure about Fedora.

I don't know if Australia has any kind of accessibility laws, but I know the 
US and UK do.  Probably someone in the US would have to ask Red Hat to make 
an accessible solution available which they would probably refuse to do.  It 
would then have to go to lawyers to settle.  It might not end up in a suit, 
but it very well might.  Most likely, an advocacy organization like the ACB 
or NFB would have to push Red Hat and it could take years.  Obviously, that 
won't help with the immediate problem.  By law, they are required to provide 
an accessibility solution for you.  Since you're in Australia, I really 
don't know if any of this would apply to you or not.  I would suggest asking 
if you can do the certification with ssh to the RHEL box.  There are ssh 
clients for Linux and Windows, so one way or the other, you could have 
speech.  If they let you bring your own laptop, you could install Debian, 
Arch or Ubuntu on it which would give you Speakup.  If not, you could see if 
they would let you ssh from Windows with NVDA or a different Windows screen 
reader.  As I said, they're required to provide an alternative solution in 
the US, so you might even be able to make them let you borrow a machine.

I don't know anything about your work, but a better approach might be to 
talk to your employer.  Yes, I realize that Red Hat gives the certification, 
but your employer might be able to somehow work with Red Hat and/or let you 
borrow a machine, especially since the point in getting it is for work.  In 
the US, employers with more than I think 10 employees are required to make 
accomodations as necessary for accessibility.  An example would be buying 
someone a screen reader so they can do their job.

In conclusion, I would suggest studying the Americans with Disabilities Act, 
or ADA.  I really don't know if it will help you, but at least you'll know 
what's required by US companies.  The ACB has several ADA seminars from the 
various conventions online.  I'm sure the NFB does as well.  I would suggest 
the following two sites:

http://www.acb.org/
http://www.acbradio.org/

I know there is an organization in Australia as well which might be able to 
help.  Please let us know what happens as I would be very interested to see 
what Red Hat says.

On 3/28/2013 10:16 PM, Jason White wrote:
> Sean Murphy<speakup@linux-speakup.org>  wrote:
>>
>> I am going to prep for the Red Hat Admin certifications. I need to know if what screen reader is available on the console? Speakup you have to compile into the Kernel. So I am not sure if this can be
>> done or not. Any suggestions on how to get this console to work?
>
> I don't know, but have you contacted Red Hat about it? It's their
> certification, after all, hence in their business interests to ensure it's
> accessible to you. there might also be legal implications depending on the
> laws in force in your country.
>
> I am sure that others on this list will have advice to offer, but I think
> raising the issue with Red Hat would be a very good idea not only for you but
> for the benefit of others with access needs.

RE: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2

[Amanda Rush]

Hi all,

Red Hat will not allow you to compile Speakup into the RHEL kernel. Also,
if you're certifying for RHEL6.2 or any of the other RHEL versions, you're
expected to specifically use that distro. Also, they will not allow you to
bring in your own system and SSH into one of their boxes to do the
certification. As of this point, there is a VM you have to use that is
provided by Red Hat that you have to use to complete the cert, as well as
one for going through the curriculum, and speakup is definitely not part
of it. I tried getting speakup to compile on both of these, and was
unsuccessful. And in order to complete the curriculum for the cert, there
are scripts that have to run on your VM so that Red Hat's servers can
grade your labs. You could try accessing the grading pages via SSH, but
you're going to have to use Elinks to do it, and Elinks doesn't play well
with their grading page.

I'd like to say Red Hat is just apathetic to accessibility concerns, or
that they just don't know any better, but given that they pretty much are
actively discouraging anyone who needs to use adaptive technology by
taking all these steps, I'm not so sure. I think the quickest solution
will be to talk to your employer and see if you can maybe demonstrate that
you can complete the tasks on the certification, and see if that would
suffice for your not having the cert. I wish you the best of luck. And
yes, if we could get one of the advocacy orgs on board and sue Red Hat,
that would be great. But it would be nice if they didn't settle, because
if it doesn't go to court, there's no legal precedence when this comes up
with another organization, (<cough>Cisco</cough>) and then the wheel has
to be reinvented all over again.

Amanda



-----Original Message-----
From: Speakup [mailto:speakup-bounces@linux-speakup.org] On Behalf Of Tony
Baechler
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 5:36 AM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2

Jason, Red Hat has made it very clear that they have no interest in
accessibility, so I highly doubt that just contacting them would do any
good.  I say this from looking at their sites and finding nothing at all
about accessibility.  They don't even ship Speakup with RHEL as far as I'm
aware, but since it's in staging, maybe they do now.  As I recall, 6.2 is
rather old and uses a custom kernel with a large set of patches, so I
don't think you'll get Speakup to compile.  You could try compiling as
modules and see if it works, but I wouldn't hold my breath.  I think the
same applies to CentOS as well.  I'm not sure about Fedora.

I don't know if Australia has any kind of accessibility laws, but I know
the US and UK do.  Probably someone in the US would have to ask Red Hat to
make an accessible solution available which they would probably refuse to
do.  It would then have to go to lawyers to settle.  It might not end up
in a suit, but it very well might.  Most likely, an advocacy organization
like the ACB or NFB would have to push Red Hat and it could take years.
Obviously, that won't help with the immediate problem.  By law, they are
required to provide an accessibility solution for you.  Since you're in
Australia, I really don't know if any of this would apply to you or not.
I would suggest asking if you can do the certification with ssh to the
RHEL box.  There are ssh clients for Linux and Windows, so one way or the
other, you could have speech.  If they let you bring your own laptop, you
could install Debian, Arch or Ubuntu on it which would give you Speakup.
If not, you could see if they would let you ssh from Windows with NVDA or
a different Windows screen reader.  As I said, they're required to provide
an alternative solution in the US, so you might even be able to make them
let you borrow a machine.

I don't know anything about your work, but a better approach might be to
talk to your employer.  Yes, I realize that Red Hat gives the
certification, but your employer might be able to somehow work with Red
Hat and/or let you borrow a machine, especially since the point in getting
it is for work.  In the US, employers with more than I think 10 employees
are required to make accomodations as necessary for accessibility.  An
example would be buying someone a screen reader so they can do their job.

In conclusion, I would suggest studying the Americans with Disabilities
Act, or ADA.  I really don't know if it will help you, but at least you'll
know what's required by US companies.  The ACB has several ADA seminars
from the various conventions online.  I'm sure the NFB does as well.  I
would suggest the following two sites:

http://www.acb.org/
http://www.acbradio.org/

I know there is an organization in Australia as well which might be able
to help.  Please let us know what happens as I would be very interested to
see what Red Hat says.

On 3/28/2013 10:16 PM, Jason White wrote:
> Sean Murphy<speakup@linux-speakup.org>  wrote:
>>
>> I am going to prep for the Red Hat Admin certifications. I need to
>> know if what screen reader is available on the console? Speakup you
have to compile into the Kernel. So I am not sure if this can be done or
not. Any suggestions on how to get this console to work?
>
> I don't know, but have you contacted Red Hat about it? It's their
> certification, after all, hence in their business interests to ensure
> it's accessible to you. there might also be legal implications
> depending on the laws in force in your country.
>
> I am sure that others on this list will have advice to offer, but I
> think raising the issue with Red Hat would be a very good idea not
> only for you but for the benefit of others with access needs.
_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@linux-speakup.org
http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2

[Rob Hudson]

Will brltty work on it? This is nuts!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Amanda Rush" <amanda@customerservant.com>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." 
<speakup@linux-speakup.org>
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 7:58 AM
Subject: RE: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2


> Hi all,
>
> Red Hat will not allow you to compile Speakup into the RHEL kernel. Also,
> if you're certifying for RHEL6.2 or any of the other RHEL versions, you're
> expected to specifically use that distro. Also, they will not allow you to
> bring in your own system and SSH into one of their boxes to do the
> certification. As of this point, there is a VM you have to use that is
> provided by Red Hat that you have to use to complete the cert, as well as
> one for going through the curriculum, and speakup is definitely not part
> of it. I tried getting speakup to compile on both of these, and was
> unsuccessful. And in order to complete the curriculum for the cert, there
> are scripts that have to run on your VM so that Red Hat's servers can
> grade your labs. You could try accessing the grading pages via SSH, but
> you're going to have to use Elinks to do it, and Elinks doesn't play well
> with their grading page.
>
> I'd like to say Red Hat is just apathetic to accessibility concerns, or
> that they just don't know any better, but given that they pretty much are
> actively discouraging anyone who needs to use adaptive technology by
> taking all these steps, I'm not so sure. I think the quickest solution
> will be to talk to your employer and see if you can maybe demonstrate that
> you can complete the tasks on the certification, and see if that would
> suffice for your not having the cert. I wish you the best of luck. And
> yes, if we could get one of the advocacy orgs on board and sue Red Hat,
> that would be great. But it would be nice if they didn't settle, because
> if it doesn't go to court, there's no legal precedence when this comes up
> with another organization, (<cough>Cisco</cough>) and then the wheel has
> to be reinvented all over again.
>
> Amanda
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Speakup [mailto:speakup-bounces@linux-speakup.org] On Behalf Of Tony
> Baechler
> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 5:36 AM
> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> Subject: Re: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2
>
> Jason, Red Hat has made it very clear that they have no interest in
> accessibility, so I highly doubt that just contacting them would do any
> good.  I say this from looking at their sites and finding nothing at all
> about accessibility.  They don't even ship Speakup with RHEL as far as I'm
> aware, but since it's in staging, maybe they do now.  As I recall, 6.2 is
> rather old and uses a custom kernel with a large set of patches, so I
> don't think you'll get Speakup to compile.  You could try compiling as
> modules and see if it works, but I wouldn't hold my breath.  I think the
> same applies to CentOS as well.  I'm not sure about Fedora.
>
> I don't know if Australia has any kind of accessibility laws, but I know
> the US and UK do.  Probably someone in the US would have to ask Red Hat to
> make an accessible solution available which they would probably refuse to
> do.  It would then have to go to lawyers to settle.  It might not end up
> in a suit, but it very well might.  Most likely, an advocacy organization
> like the ACB or NFB would have to push Red Hat and it could take years.
> Obviously, that won't help with the immediate problem.  By law, they are
> required to provide an accessibility solution for you.  Since you're in
> Australia, I really don't know if any of this would apply to you or not.
> I would suggest asking if you can do the certification with ssh to the
> RHEL box.  There are ssh clients for Linux and Windows, so one way or the
> other, you could have speech.  If they let you bring your own laptop, you
> could install Debian, Arch or Ubuntu on it which would give you Speakup.
> If not, you could see if they would let you ssh from Windows with NVDA or
> a different Windows screen reader.  As I said, they're required to provide
> an alternative solution in the US, so you might even be able to make them
> let you borrow a machine.
>
> I don't know anything about your work, but a better approach might be to
> talk to your employer.  Yes, I realize that Red Hat gives the
> certification, but your employer might be able to somehow work with Red
> Hat and/or let you borrow a machine, especially since the point in getting
> it is for work.  In the US, employers with more than I think 10 employees
> are required to make accomodations as necessary for accessibility.  An
> example would be buying someone a screen reader so they can do their job.
>
> In conclusion, I would suggest studying the Americans with Disabilities
> Act, or ADA.  I really don't know if it will help you, but at least you'll
> know what's required by US companies.  The ACB has several ADA seminars
> from the various conventions online.  I'm sure the NFB does as well.  I
> would suggest the following two sites:
>
> http://www.acb.org/
> http://www.acbradio.org/
>
> I know there is an organization in Australia as well which might be able
> to help.  Please let us know what happens as I would be very interested to
> see what Red Hat says.
>
> On 3/28/2013 10:16 PM, Jason White wrote:
>> Sean Murphy<speakup@linux-speakup.org>  wrote:
>>>
>>> I am going to prep for the Red Hat Admin certifications. I need to
>>> know if what screen reader is available on the console? Speakup you
> have to compile into the Kernel. So I am not sure if this can be done or
> not. Any suggestions on how to get this console to work?
>>
>> I don't know, but have you contacted Red Hat about it? It's their
>> certification, after all, hence in their business interests to ensure
>> it's accessible to you. there might also be legal implications
>> depending on the laws in force in your country.
>>
>> I am sure that others on this list will have advice to offer, but I
>> think raising the issue with Red Hat would be a very good idea not
>> only for you but for the benefit of others with access needs.
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup 

RE: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2

[Amanda Rush]

I'm not sure about that. As long as nothing else has to be added to the VM
in order to make it work, maybe. But I don't know as that was the one
thing I didn't try. And that would be fine when it came to all the CLI
stuff, which admittedly is most of it, but there are also some graphic
elements. Printing, for one.

-----Original Message-----
From: Speakup [mailto:speakup-bounces@linux-speakup.org] On Behalf Of Rob
Hudson
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 9:07 AM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2

Will brltty work on it? This is nuts!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Amanda Rush" <amanda@customerservant.com>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
<speakup@linux-speakup.org>
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 7:58 AM
Subject: RE: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2


> Hi all,
>
> Red Hat will not allow you to compile Speakup into the RHEL kernel.
Also,
> if you're certifying for RHEL6.2 or any of the other RHEL versions,
you're
> expected to specifically use that distro. Also, they will not allow you
to
> bring in your own system and SSH into one of their boxes to do the
> certification. As of this point, there is a VM you have to use that is
> provided by Red Hat that you have to use to complete the cert, as well
as
> one for going through the curriculum, and speakup is definitely not part
> of it. I tried getting speakup to compile on both of these, and was
> unsuccessful. And in order to complete the curriculum for the cert,
there
> are scripts that have to run on your VM so that Red Hat's servers can
> grade your labs. You could try accessing the grading pages via SSH, but
> you're going to have to use Elinks to do it, and Elinks doesn't play
well
> with their grading page.
>
> I'd like to say Red Hat is just apathetic to accessibility concerns, or
> that they just don't know any better, but given that they pretty much
are
> actively discouraging anyone who needs to use adaptive technology by
> taking all these steps, I'm not so sure. I think the quickest solution
> will be to talk to your employer and see if you can maybe demonstrate
that
> you can complete the tasks on the certification, and see if that would
> suffice for your not having the cert. I wish you the best of luck. And
> yes, if we could get one of the advocacy orgs on board and sue Red Hat,
> that would be great. But it would be nice if they didn't settle, because
> if it doesn't go to court, there's no legal precedence when this comes
up
> with another organization, (<cough>Cisco</cough>) and then the wheel has
> to be reinvented all over again.
>
> Amanda
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Speakup [mailto:speakup-bounces@linux-speakup.org] On Behalf Of
Tony
> Baechler
> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 5:36 AM
> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> Subject: Re: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2
>
> Jason, Red Hat has made it very clear that they have no interest in
> accessibility, so I highly doubt that just contacting them would do any
> good.  I say this from looking at their sites and finding nothing at all
> about accessibility.  They don't even ship Speakup with RHEL as far as
I'm
> aware, but since it's in staging, maybe they do now.  As I recall, 6.2
is
> rather old and uses a custom kernel with a large set of patches, so I
> don't think you'll get Speakup to compile.  You could try compiling as
> modules and see if it works, but I wouldn't hold my breath.  I think the
> same applies to CentOS as well.  I'm not sure about Fedora.
>
> I don't know if Australia has any kind of accessibility laws, but I know
> the US and UK do.  Probably someone in the US would have to ask Red Hat
to
> make an accessible solution available which they would probably refuse
to
> do.  It would then have to go to lawyers to settle.  It might not end up
> in a suit, but it very well might.  Most likely, an advocacy
organization
> like the ACB or NFB would have to push Red Hat and it could take years.
> Obviously, that won't help with the immediate problem.  By law, they are
> required to provide an accessibility solution for you.  Since you're in
> Australia, I really don't know if any of this would apply to you or not.
> I would suggest asking if you can do the certification with ssh to the
> RHEL box.  There are ssh clients for Linux and Windows, so one way or
the
> other, you could have speech.  If they let you bring your own laptop,
you
> could install Debian, Arch or Ubuntu on it which would give you Speakup.
> If not, you could see if they would let you ssh from Windows with NVDA
or
> a different Windows screen reader.  As I said, they're required to
provide
> an alternative solution in the US, so you might even be able to make
them
> let you borrow a machine.
>
> I don't know anything about your work, but a better approach might be to
> talk to your employer.  Yes, I realize that Red Hat gives the
> certification, but your employer might be able to somehow work with Red
> Hat and/or let you borrow a machine, especially since the point in
getting
> it is for work.  In the US, employers with more than I think 10
employees
> are required to make accomodations as necessary for accessibility.  An
> example would be buying someone a screen reader so they can do their
job.
>
> In conclusion, I would suggest studying the Americans with Disabilities
> Act, or ADA.  I really don't know if it will help you, but at least
you'll
> know what's required by US companies.  The ACB has several ADA seminars
> from the various conventions online.  I'm sure the NFB does as well.  I
> would suggest the following two sites:
>
> http://www.acb.org/
> http://www.acbradio.org/
>
> I know there is an organization in Australia as well which might be able
> to help.  Please let us know what happens as I would be very interested
to
> see what Red Hat says.
>
> On 3/28/2013 10:16 PM, Jason White wrote:
>> Sean Murphy<speakup@linux-speakup.org>  wrote:
>>>
>>> I am going to prep for the Red Hat Admin certifications. I need to
>>> know if what screen reader is available on the console? Speakup you
> have to compile into the Kernel. So I am not sure if this can be done or
> not. Any suggestions on how to get this console to work?
>>
>> I don't know, but have you contacted Red Hat about it? It's their
>> certification, after all, hence in their business interests to ensure
>> it's accessible to you. there might also be legal implications
>> depending on the laws in force in your country.
>>
>> I am sure that others on this list will have advice to offer, but I
>> think raising the issue with Red Hat would be a very good idea not
>> only for you but for the benefit of others with access needs.
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@linux-speakup.org
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RE: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2

[Kelly Prescott]

You can do all the printing from the command line or from the cups web 
interface.
Remember that in Unix and Linux, the command line is the primary way of 
getting stuff done, and the GUI is just usually a added feature/function.
I know of very few things that actually cannot be done from the command 
line with a little creativity.

-- Kelly Prescott


On Fri, 29 Mar 2013, Amanda Rush wrote:

> I'm not sure about that. As long as nothing else has to be added to the VM
> in order to make it work, maybe. But I don't know as that was the one
> thing I didn't try. And that would be fine when it came to all the CLI
> stuff, which admittedly is most of it, but there are also some graphic
> elements. Printing, for one.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Speakup [mailto:speakup-bounces@linux-speakup.org] On Behalf Of Rob
> Hudson
> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 9:07 AM
> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> Subject: Re: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2
>
> Will brltty work on it? This is nuts!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Amanda Rush" <amanda@customerservant.com>
> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
> <speakup@linux-speakup.org>
> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 7:58 AM
> Subject: RE: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2
>
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Red Hat will not allow you to compile Speakup into the RHEL kernel.
> Also,
>> if you're certifying for RHEL6.2 or any of the other RHEL versions,
> you're
>> expected to specifically use that distro. Also, they will not allow you
> to
>> bring in your own system and SSH into one of their boxes to do the
>> certification. As of this point, there is a VM you have to use that is
>> provided by Red Hat that you have to use to complete the cert, as well
> as
>> one for going through the curriculum, and speakup is definitely not part
>> of it. I tried getting speakup to compile on both of these, and was
>> unsuccessful. And in order to complete the curriculum for the cert,
> there
>> are scripts that have to run on your VM so that Red Hat's servers can
>> grade your labs. You could try accessing the grading pages via SSH, but
>> you're going to have to use Elinks to do it, and Elinks doesn't play
> well
>> with their grading page.
>>
>> I'd like to say Red Hat is just apathetic to accessibility concerns, or
>> that they just don't know any better, but given that they pretty much
> are
>> actively discouraging anyone who needs to use adaptive technology by
>> taking all these steps, I'm not so sure. I think the quickest solution
>> will be to talk to your employer and see if you can maybe demonstrate
> that
>> you can complete the tasks on the certification, and see if that would
>> suffice for your not having the cert. I wish you the best of luck. And
>> yes, if we could get one of the advocacy orgs on board and sue Red Hat,
>> that would be great. But it would be nice if they didn't settle, because
>> if it doesn't go to court, there's no legal precedence when this comes
> up
>> with another organization, (<cough>Cisco</cough>) and then the wheel has
>> to be reinvented all over again.
>>
>> Amanda
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Speakup [mailto:speakup-bounces@linux-speakup.org] On Behalf Of
> Tony
>> Baechler
>> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 5:36 AM
>> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
>> Subject: Re: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2
>>
>> Jason, Red Hat has made it very clear that they have no interest in
>> accessibility, so I highly doubt that just contacting them would do any
>> good.  I say this from looking at their sites and finding nothing at all
>> about accessibility.  They don't even ship Speakup with RHEL as far as
> I'm
>> aware, but since it's in staging, maybe they do now.  As I recall, 6.2
> is
>> rather old and uses a custom kernel with a large set of patches, so I
>> don't think you'll get Speakup to compile.  You could try compiling as
>> modules and see if it works, but I wouldn't hold my breath.  I think the
>> same applies to CentOS as well.  I'm not sure about Fedora.
>>
>> I don't know if Australia has any kind of accessibility laws, but I know
>> the US and UK do.  Probably someone in the US would have to ask Red Hat
> to
>> make an accessible solution available which they would probably refuse
> to
>> do.  It would then have to go to lawyers to settle.  It might not end up
>> in a suit, but it very well might.  Most likely, an advocacy
> organization
>> like the ACB or NFB would have to push Red Hat and it could take years.
>> Obviously, that won't help with the immediate problem.  By law, they are
>> required to provide an accessibility solution for you.  Since you're in
>> Australia, I really don't know if any of this would apply to you or not.
>> I would suggest asking if you can do the certification with ssh to the
>> RHEL box.  There are ssh clients for Linux and Windows, so one way or
> the
>> other, you could have speech.  If they let you bring your own laptop,
> you
>> could install Debian, Arch or Ubuntu on it which would give you Speakup.
>> If not, you could see if they would let you ssh from Windows with NVDA
> or
>> a different Windows screen reader.  As I said, they're required to
> provide
>> an alternative solution in the US, so you might even be able to make
> them
>> let you borrow a machine.
>>
>> I don't know anything about your work, but a better approach might be to
>> talk to your employer.  Yes, I realize that Red Hat gives the
>> certification, but your employer might be able to somehow work with Red
>> Hat and/or let you borrow a machine, especially since the point in
> getting
>> it is for work.  In the US, employers with more than I think 10
> employees
>> are required to make accomodations as necessary for accessibility.  An
>> example would be buying someone a screen reader so they can do their
> job.
>>
>> In conclusion, I would suggest studying the Americans with Disabilities
>> Act, or ADA.  I really don't know if it will help you, but at least
> you'll
>> know what's required by US companies.  The ACB has several ADA seminars
>> from the various conventions online.  I'm sure the NFB does as well.  I
>> would suggest the following two sites:
>>
>> http://www.acb.org/
>> http://www.acbradio.org/
>>
>> I know there is an organization in Australia as well which might be able
>> to help.  Please let us know what happens as I would be very interested
> to
>> see what Red Hat says.
>>
>> On 3/28/2013 10:16 PM, Jason White wrote:
>>> Sean Murphy<speakup@linux-speakup.org>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I am going to prep for the Red Hat Admin certifications. I need to
>>>> know if what screen reader is available on the console? Speakup you
>> have to compile into the Kernel. So I am not sure if this can be done or
>> not. Any suggestions on how to get this console to work?
>>>
>>> I don't know, but have you contacted Red Hat about it? It's their
>>> certification, after all, hence in their business interests to ensure
>>> it's accessible to you. there might also be legal implications
>>> depending on the laws in force in your country.
>>>
>>> I am sure that others on this list will have advice to offer, but I
>>> think raising the issue with Red Hat would be a very good idea not
>>> only for you but for the benefit of others with access needs.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
>> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
>> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

RE: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2

[Amanda Rush]

You can, but part of the Red Hat cert is to be able to use the GUI as well
as CUPS or the command line. CUPS and the CLI are option, meaning that you
have to pick one. The GUI is not option for the cert. You have to prove
that you can use it.



-----Original Message-----
From: Speakup [mailto:speakup-bounces@linux-speakup.org] On Behalf Of
Kelly Prescott
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 9:51 AM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: RE: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2

You can do all the printing from the command line or from the cups web
interface.
Remember that in Unix and Linux, the command line is the primary way of
getting stuff done, and the GUI is just usually a added feature/function.
I know of very few things that actually cannot be done from the command
line with a little creativity.

-- Kelly Prescott


On Fri, 29 Mar 2013, Amanda Rush wrote:

> I'm not sure about that. As long as nothing else has to be added to
> the VM in order to make it work, maybe. But I don't know as that was
> the one thing I didn't try. And that would be fine when it came to all
> the CLI stuff, which admittedly is most of it, but there are also some
> graphic elements. Printing, for one.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Speakup [mailto:speakup-bounces@linux-speakup.org] On Behalf Of
> Rob Hudson
> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 9:07 AM
> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> Subject: Re: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2
>
> Will brltty work on it? This is nuts!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Amanda Rush" <amanda@customerservant.com>
> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
> <speakup@linux-speakup.org>
> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 7:58 AM
> Subject: RE: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2
>
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Red Hat will not allow you to compile Speakup into the RHEL kernel.
> Also,
>> if you're certifying for RHEL6.2 or any of the other RHEL versions,
> you're
>> expected to specifically use that distro. Also, they will not allow
>> you
> to
>> bring in your own system and SSH into one of their boxes to do the
>> certification. As of this point, there is a VM you have to use that
>> is provided by Red Hat that you have to use to complete the cert, as
>> well
> as
>> one for going through the curriculum, and speakup is definitely not
>> part of it. I tried getting speakup to compile on both of these, and
>> was unsuccessful. And in order to complete the curriculum for the
>> cert,
> there
>> are scripts that have to run on your VM so that Red Hat's servers can
>> grade your labs. You could try accessing the grading pages via SSH,
>> but you're going to have to use Elinks to do it, and Elinks doesn't
>> play
> well
>> with their grading page.
>>
>> I'd like to say Red Hat is just apathetic to accessibility concerns,
>> or that they just don't know any better, but given that they pretty
>> much
> are
>> actively discouraging anyone who needs to use adaptive technology by
>> taking all these steps, I'm not so sure. I think the quickest
>> solution will be to talk to your employer and see if you can maybe
>> demonstrate
> that
>> you can complete the tasks on the certification, and see if that
>> would suffice for your not having the cert. I wish you the best of
>> luck. And yes, if we could get one of the advocacy orgs on board and
>> sue Red Hat, that would be great. But it would be nice if they didn't
>> settle, because if it doesn't go to court, there's no legal
>> precedence when this comes
> up
>> with another organization, (<cough>Cisco</cough>) and then the wheel
>> has to be reinvented all over again.
>>
>> Amanda
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Speakup [mailto:speakup-bounces@linux-speakup.org] On Behalf Of
> Tony
>> Baechler
>> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 5:36 AM
>> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
>> Subject: Re: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2
>>
>> Jason, Red Hat has made it very clear that they have no interest in
>> accessibility, so I highly doubt that just contacting them would do
>> any good.  I say this from looking at their sites and finding nothing
>> at all about accessibility.  They don't even ship Speakup with RHEL
>> as far as
> I'm
>> aware, but since it's in staging, maybe they do now.  As I recall,
>> 6.2
> is
>> rather old and uses a custom kernel with a large set of patches, so I
>> don't think you'll get Speakup to compile.  You could try compiling
>> as modules and see if it works, but I wouldn't hold my breath.  I
>> think the same applies to CentOS as well.  I'm not sure about Fedora.
>>
>> I don't know if Australia has any kind of accessibility laws, but I
>> know the US and UK do.  Probably someone in the US would have to ask
>> Red Hat
> to
>> make an accessible solution available which they would probably
>> refuse
> to
>> do.  It would then have to go to lawyers to settle.  It might not end
>> up in a suit, but it very well might.  Most likely, an advocacy
> organization
>> like the ACB or NFB would have to push Red Hat and it could take years.
>> Obviously, that won't help with the immediate problem.  By law, they
>> are required to provide an accessibility solution for you.  Since
>> you're in Australia, I really don't know if any of this would apply to
you or not.
>> I would suggest asking if you can do the certification with ssh to
>> the RHEL box.  There are ssh clients for Linux and Windows, so one
>> way or
> the
>> other, you could have speech.  If they let you bring your own laptop,
> you
>> could install Debian, Arch or Ubuntu on it which would give you
Speakup.
>> If not, you could see if they would let you ssh from Windows with
>> NVDA
> or
>> a different Windows screen reader.  As I said, they're required to
> provide
>> an alternative solution in the US, so you might even be able to make
> them
>> let you borrow a machine.
>>
>> I don't know anything about your work, but a better approach might be
>> to talk to your employer.  Yes, I realize that Red Hat gives the
>> certification, but your employer might be able to somehow work with
>> Red Hat and/or let you borrow a machine, especially since the point
>> in
> getting
>> it is for work.  In the US, employers with more than I think 10
> employees
>> are required to make accomodations as necessary for accessibility.
>> An example would be buying someone a screen reader so they can do
>> their
> job.
>>
>> In conclusion, I would suggest studying the Americans with
>> Disabilities Act, or ADA.  I really don't know if it will help you,
>> but at least
> you'll
>> know what's required by US companies.  The ACB has several ADA
>> seminars from the various conventions online.  I'm sure the NFB does
>> as well.  I would suggest the following two sites:
>>
>> http://www.acb.org/
>> http://www.acbradio.org/
>>
>> I know there is an organization in Australia as well which might be
>> able to help.  Please let us know what happens as I would be very
>> interested
> to
>> see what Red Hat says.
>>
>> On 3/28/2013 10:16 PM, Jason White wrote:
>>> Sean Murphy<speakup@linux-speakup.org>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I am going to prep for the Red Hat Admin certifications. I need to
>>>> know if what screen reader is available on the console? Speakup you
>> have to compile into the Kernel. So I am not sure if this can be done
>> or not. Any suggestions on how to get this console to work?
>>>
>>> I don't know, but have you contacted Red Hat about it? It's their
>>> certification, after all, hence in their business interests to
>>> ensure it's accessible to you. there might also be legal
>>> implications depending on the laws in force in your country.
>>>
>>> I am sure that others on this list will have advice to offer, but I
>>> think raising the issue with Red Hat would be a very good idea not
>>> only for you but for the benefit of others with access needs.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
>> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
>> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@linux-speakup.org
http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2

[Glenn]

One person I would ask about this is:
Janina Sajka
Her address is:
janina@rednote.net
Glenn

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Amanda Rush" <amanda@customerservant.com>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." 
<speakup@linux-speakup.org>
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 7:58 AM
Subject: RE: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2


Hi all,

Red Hat will not allow you to compile Speakup into the RHEL kernel. Also,
if you're certifying for RHEL6.2 or any of the other RHEL versions, you're
expected to specifically use that distro. Also, they will not allow you to
bring in your own system and SSH into one of their boxes to do the
certification. As of this point, there is a VM you have to use that is
provided by Red Hat that you have to use to complete the cert, as well as
one for going through the curriculum, and speakup is definitely not part
of it. I tried getting speakup to compile on both of these, and was
unsuccessful. And in order to complete the curriculum for the cert, there
are scripts that have to run on your VM so that Red Hat's servers can
grade your labs. You could try accessing the grading pages via SSH, but
you're going to have to use Elinks to do it, and Elinks doesn't play well
with their grading page.

I'd like to say Red Hat is just apathetic to accessibility concerns, or
that they just don't know any better, but given that they pretty much are
actively discouraging anyone who needs to use adaptive technology by
taking all these steps, I'm not so sure. I think the quickest solution
will be to talk to your employer and see if you can maybe demonstrate that
you can complete the tasks on the certification, and see if that would
suffice for your not having the cert. I wish you the best of luck. And
yes, if we could get one of the advocacy orgs on board and sue Red Hat,
that would be great. But it would be nice if they didn't settle, because
if it doesn't go to court, there's no legal precedence when this comes up
with another organization, (<cough>Cisco</cough>) and then the wheel has
to be reinvented all over again.

Amanda



-----Original Message-----
From: Speakup [mailto:speakup-bounces@linux-speakup.org] On Behalf Of Tony
Baechler
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 5:36 AM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2

Jason, Red Hat has made it very clear that they have no interest in
accessibility, so I highly doubt that just contacting them would do any
good.  I say this from looking at their sites and finding nothing at all
about accessibility.  They don't even ship Speakup with RHEL as far as I'm
aware, but since it's in staging, maybe they do now.  As I recall, 6.2 is
rather old and uses a custom kernel with a large set of patches, so I
don't think you'll get Speakup to compile.  You could try compiling as
modules and see if it works, but I wouldn't hold my breath.  I think the
same applies to CentOS as well.  I'm not sure about Fedora.

I don't know if Australia has any kind of accessibility laws, but I know
the US and UK do.  Probably someone in the US would have to ask Red Hat to
make an accessible solution available which they would probably refuse to
do.  It would then have to go to lawyers to settle.  It might not end up
in a suit, but it very well might.  Most likely, an advocacy organization
like the ACB or NFB would have to push Red Hat and it could take years.
Obviously, that won't help with the immediate problem.  By law, they are
required to provide an accessibility solution for you.  Since you're in
Australia, I really don't know if any of this would apply to you or not.
I would suggest asking if you can do the certification with ssh to the
RHEL box.  There are ssh clients for Linux and Windows, so one way or the
other, you could have speech.  If they let you bring your own laptop, you
could install Debian, Arch or Ubuntu on it which would give you Speakup.
If not, you could see if they would let you ssh from Windows with NVDA or
a different Windows screen reader.  As I said, they're required to provide
an alternative solution in the US, so you might even be able to make them
let you borrow a machine.

I don't know anything about your work, but a better approach might be to
talk to your employer.  Yes, I realize that Red Hat gives the
certification, but your employer might be able to somehow work with Red
Hat and/or let you borrow a machine, especially since the point in getting
it is for work.  In the US, employers with more than I think 10 employees
are required to make accomodations as necessary for accessibility.  An
example would be buying someone a screen reader so they can do their job.

In conclusion, I would suggest studying the Americans with Disabilities
Act, or ADA.  I really don't know if it will help you, but at least you'll
know what's required by US companies.  The ACB has several ADA seminars
from the various conventions online.  I'm sure the NFB does as well.  I
would suggest the following two sites:

http://www.acb.org/
http://www.acbradio.org/

I know there is an organization in Australia as well which might be able
to help.  Please let us know what happens as I would be very interested to
see what Red Hat says.

On 3/28/2013 10:16 PM, Jason White wrote:
> Sean Murphy<speakup@linux-speakup.org>  wrote:
>>
>> I am going to prep for the Red Hat Admin certifications. I need to
>> know if what screen reader is available on the console? Speakup you
have to compile into the Kernel. So I am not sure if this can be done or
not. Any suggestions on how to get this console to work?
>
> I don't know, but have you contacted Red Hat about it? It's their
> certification, after all, hence in their business interests to ensure
> it's accessible to you. there might also be legal implications
> depending on the laws in force in your country.
>
> I am sure that others on this list will have advice to offer, but I
> think raising the issue with Red Hat would be a very good idea not
> only for you but for the benefit of others with access needs.
_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@linux-speakup.org
http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@linux-speakup.org
http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup 

Re: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2

[Tony Baechler]

Umm, why?  She only works with Fedora as I understand and I'm not even sure 
if the Speakup Modified Fedora is still current.  It would be good if she 
could get her organization and the AFB involved though.

No, I think the only way this will change is if at least a few people 
complain loudly to the ACB and lflegal.com.  Even then, it could take years. 
  I agree that LPI seems better, based on the books I've seen.  I personally 
would be willing to support a movement to make RHEL accessible, but since I 
don't use it and don't have to, I'm not a good candidate to complain.

For those of you living in California, the CCB is also a good choice.  They 
are very strong and have taken on several big companies.  Yes, the ACB and 
CCB require membership, but it isn't expensive and you can call first to see 
if they're interested in helping.  http://ccbnet.org/

On 3/29/2013 5:25 AM, Glenn wrote:
> One person I would ask about this is:
> Janina Sajka
> Her address is:
> janina@rednote.net
> Glenn

Re: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2

[William F. Acker WB2FLW +1 303 722 7209]

Hi all,

      Sadly, I must concur with all that has been said here, at least the 
negative stuff. I couldn't get them to turn Speakup on in the Fedora 
kernel, even though the modules are right there in staging. Happily, 
there's an organization called RPM Fusion. They provide add on modules for 
Fedora that the Fedora project won't include. They were happy to build the 
Speakup modules for their staging package. I build Fedora 18 with the 
stuff from RPM Fusion and can make it available to anyone who wants it. 
Installation would require a kickstart script, or the dreaded sighted 
assistance. I know that this doesn't help with RHEL, but since Fedora was 
mentioned, I thought I'd chime in.

           Hope this helps someone.


-- 
           Bill in Denver

On Fri, 29 Mar 2013, Tony Baechler wrote:

> Umm, why?  She only works with Fedora as I understand and I'm not even sure 
> if the Speakup Modified Fedora is still current.  It would be good if she 
> could get her organization and the AFB involved though.
>
> No, I think the only way this will change is if at least a few people 
> complain loudly to the ACB and lflegal.com.  Even then, it could take years. 
> I agree that LPI seems better, based on the books I've seen.  I personally 
> would be willing to support a movement to make RHEL accessible, but since I 
> don't use it and don't have to, I'm not a good candidate to complain.
>
> For those of you living in California, the CCB is also a good choice.  They 
> are very strong and have taken on several big companies.  Yes, the ACB and 
> CCB require membership, but it isn't expensive and you can call first to see 
> if they're interested in helping.  http://ccbnet.org/
>
> On 3/29/2013 5:25 AM, Glenn wrote:
>> One person I would ask about this is:
>> Janina Sajka
>> Her address is:
>> janina@rednote.net
>> Glenn
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2

[Al Sten-Clanton]

Hi, Bill.

You probably told me, but what, if anything, was the so-called reasoning 
given to you for Fedora's attitude?  I'd think that an outfit priding 
itself on being in the vanguard of free software development, as Fedora 
seems to,  would at least be willing to consider being in the vanguard 
of accessibility.

Al

On 03/29/2013 10:24 AM, William F. Acker WB2FLW +1 303 722 7209 wrote:
> Hi all,
>
>       Sadly, I must concur with all that has been said here, at least
> the negative stuff. I couldn't get them to turn Speakup on in the Fedora
> kernel, even though the modules are right there in staging. Happily,
> there's an organization called RPM Fusion. They provide add on modules
> for Fedora that the Fedora project won't include. They were happy to
> build the Speakup modules for their staging package. I build Fedora 18
> with the stuff from RPM Fusion and can make it available to anyone who
> wants it. Installation would require a kickstart script, or the dreaded
> sighted assistance. I know that this doesn't help with RHEL, but since
> Fedora was mentioned, I thought I'd chime in.
>
>            Hope this helps someone.
>
>

Re: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2

[William F. Acker WB2FLW +1 303 722 7209]

What they said, in essence, was that they weren't interested in turning on 
Speakup until it was out of staging . I was rather rudely encouraged to get 
with upstream and make it happen.


-- 
           Bill in Denver

On Fri, 29 Mar 2013, Al Sten-Clanton wrote:

> Hi, Bill.
>
> You probably told me, but what, if anything, was the so-called reasoning 
> given to you for Fedora's attitude?  I'd think that an outfit priding itself 
> on being in the vanguard of free software development, as Fedora seems to, 
> would at least be willing to consider being in the vanguard of accessibility.
>
> Al
>
> On 03/29/2013 10:24 AM, William F. Acker WB2FLW +1 303 722 7209 wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>>       Sadly, I must concur with all that has been said here, at least
>> the negative stuff. I couldn't get them to turn Speakup on in the Fedora
>> kernel, even though the modules are right there in staging. Happily,
>> there's an organization called RPM Fusion. They provide add on modules
>> for Fedora that the Fedora project won't include. They were happy to
>> build the Speakup modules for their staging package. I build Fedora 18
>> with the stuff from RPM Fusion and can make it available to anyone who
>> wants it. Installation would require a kickstart script, or the dreaded
>> sighted assistance. I know that this doesn't help with RHEL, but since
>> Fedora was mentioned, I thought I'd chime in.
>>
>>            Hope this helps someone.
>> 
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2

[Al Sten-Clanton]

Bill, I guess that rings the old memory bell.  If I didn't like yum as 
much as I do, I might very well revamp my new machine to use Arch or 
Debian.  (you may remember that I chose Fedora last spring because of 
your speakup-modified version of 17 coming out.)

What would I have to know to "get with upstream and make it happen"?

Al

On 03/29/2013 12:15 PM, William F. Acker WB2FLW +1 303 722 7209 wrote:
> What they said, in essence, was that they weren't interested in turning
> on Speakup until it was out of staging . I was rather rudely encouraged
> to get with upstream and make it happen.
>
>

Re: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2

[John G. Heim]

I've been on the linux kernel list and there is no way that speakup is 
going to get out of staging without a rewrite. The people on the list 
kept asking me why speakup can't run in user space and stuff like that. 
The idea that speakup is for blind people like  video output is for 
sighted people was completely foreign.  How would you like it if your 
monitor was blank until the system finished booting? Would you consider 
that adequate? They didn't have an answer for that. But I'll admit that 
  I don't understand exactly what their problems are with the speakup code.

It doesn't matter though because Red Hat's  solution doesn't have to 
involve speakup. It would be nice if it did though.


On 03/29/2013 11:15 AM, William F. Acker WB2FLW +1 303 722 7209 wrote:
> What they said, in essence, was that they weren't interested in turning
> on Speakup until it was out of staging . I was rather rudely encouraged
> to get with upstream and make it happen.
>
>

Re: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2

[William F. Acker WB2FLW +1 303 722 7209]

Someone is probably going to launch an ICBM at my house for asking this 
question, but, I wonder if we could ditch serial support. Maybe that could 
be run in user space, and the rest could go into mainline. Do you know if 
it's just the serial stuff they have a problem with?


-- 
           Bill in Denver

On Fri, 29 Mar 2013, John G. Heim wrote:

> I've been on the linux kernel list and there is no way that speakup is going 
> to get out of staging without a rewrite. The people on the list kept asking 
> me why speakup can't run in user space and stuff like that. The idea that 
> speakup is for blind people like  video output is for sighted people was 
> completely foreign.  How would you like it if your monitor was blank until 
> the system finished booting? Would you consider that adequate? They didn't 
> have an answer for that. But I'll admit that  I don't understand exactly what 
> their problems are with the speakup code.
>
> It doesn't matter though because Red Hat's  solution doesn't have to involve 
> speakup. It would be nice if it did though.
>
>
> On 03/29/2013 11:15 AM, William F. Acker WB2FLW +1 303 722 7209 wrote:
>> What they said, in essence, was that they weren't interested in turning
>> on Speakup until it was out of staging . I was rather rudely encouraged
>> to get with upstream and make it happen.
>> 
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2

[Tony Baechler]

Let us not forget that RH controls much of what goes into the kernel.  They 
are primarily in charge of security and they submit many patches.  They 
probably have a lot of influence in deciding when or if something comes out 
of staging.

On 3/29/2013 8:15 AM, William F. Acker WB2FLW +1 303 722 7209 wrote:
> What they said, in essence, was that they weren't interested in turning on
> Speakup until it was out of staging . I was rather rudely encouraged to get
> with upstream and make it happen.
>
>

-- 
Have a good day,
Tony Baechler
tony@baechler.net

Re: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2

[Alex Snow]

Has anyone thought of contacting the Fedora project to see what interest 
can be generated that way?  Anything that goes into RHEL has to go 
through Fedora first, so that might be a better place to start.

On 3/29/2013 11:09 AM, Tony Baechler wrote:
> Umm, why?  She only works with Fedora as I understand and I'm not even 
> sure if the Speakup Modified Fedora is still current.  It would be 
> good if she could get her organization and the AFB involved though.
>
> No, I think the only way this will change is if at least a few people 
> complain loudly to the ACB and lflegal.com.  Even then, it could take 
> years.  I agree that LPI seems better, based on the books I've seen.  
> I personally would be willing to support a movement to make RHEL 
> accessible, but since I don't use it and don't have to, I'm not a good 
> candidate to complain.
>
> For those of you living in California, the CCB is also a good choice.  
> They are very strong and have taken on several big companies.  Yes, 
> the ACB and CCB require membership, but it isn't expensive and you can 
> call first to see if they're interested in helping.  http://ccbnet.org/
>
> On 3/29/2013 5:25 AM, Glenn wrote:
>> One person I would ask about this is:
>> Janina Sajka
>> Her address is:
>> janina@rednote.net
>> Glenn
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup

RE: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2

[Kelly Prescott]

I tried to do RHCE certification way back in the earliest days when they 
made it available, and they flat told me that it was not possible and they 
wouldn't even adapt the training so I could take it.
I see there attitude has not changed.
I am not sure of the real value of the cert in any case unless your 
employer specifically requires it.
You might try the LPI certifications at www.lpi.org
The advantage is they are vendor neutral and they still cover all 
necessary skills.
When I asked them about adapting, they were inthusiastic about doing it 
and asked me what we could come up with to make it work for me.
I was down sized soon after starting that conversation, but I think they 
might be more willing to help.

-- Kelly Prescott


  On Fri, 29 Mar 2013, 
Amanda Rush wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Red Hat will not allow you to compile Speakup into the RHEL kernel. Also,
> if you're certifying for RHEL6.2 or any of the other RHEL versions, you're
> expected to specifically use that distro. Also, they will not allow you to
> bring in your own system and SSH into one of their boxes to do the
> certification. As of this point, there is a VM you have to use that is
> provided by Red Hat that you have to use to complete the cert, as well as
> one for going through the curriculum, and speakup is definitely not part
> of it. I tried getting speakup to compile on both of these, and was
> unsuccessful. And in order to complete the curriculum for the cert, there
> are scripts that have to run on your VM so that Red Hat's servers can
> grade your labs. You could try accessing the grading pages via SSH, but
> you're going to have to use Elinks to do it, and Elinks doesn't play well
> with their grading page.
>
> I'd like to say Red Hat is just apathetic to accessibility concerns, or
> that they just don't know any better, but given that they pretty much are
> actively discouraging anyone who needs to use adaptive technology by
> taking all these steps, I'm not so sure. I think the quickest solution
> will be to talk to your employer and see if you can maybe demonstrate that
> you can complete the tasks on the certification, and see if that would
> suffice for your not having the cert. I wish you the best of luck. And
> yes, if we could get one of the advocacy orgs on board and sue Red Hat,
> that would be great. But it would be nice if they didn't settle, because
> if it doesn't go to court, there's no legal precedence when this comes up
> with another organization, (<cough>Cisco</cough>) and then the wheel has
> to be reinvented all over again.
>
> Amanda
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Speakup [mailto:speakup-bounces@linux-speakup.org] On Behalf Of Tony
> Baechler
> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 5:36 AM
> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> Subject: Re: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2
>
> Jason, Red Hat has made it very clear that they have no interest in
> accessibility, so I highly doubt that just contacting them would do any
> good.  I say this from looking at their sites and finding nothing at all
> about accessibility.  They don't even ship Speakup with RHEL as far as I'm
> aware, but since it's in staging, maybe they do now.  As I recall, 6.2 is
> rather old and uses a custom kernel with a large set of patches, so I
> don't think you'll get Speakup to compile.  You could try compiling as
> modules and see if it works, but I wouldn't hold my breath.  I think the
> same applies to CentOS as well.  I'm not sure about Fedora.
>
> I don't know if Australia has any kind of accessibility laws, but I know
> the US and UK do.  Probably someone in the US would have to ask Red Hat to
> make an accessible solution available which they would probably refuse to
> do.  It would then have to go to lawyers to settle.  It might not end up
> in a suit, but it very well might.  Most likely, an advocacy organization
> like the ACB or NFB would have to push Red Hat and it could take years.
> Obviously, that won't help with the immediate problem.  By law, they are
> required to provide an accessibility solution for you.  Since you're in
> Australia, I really don't know if any of this would apply to you or not.
> I would suggest asking if you can do the certification with ssh to the
> RHEL box.  There are ssh clients for Linux and Windows, so one way or the
> other, you could have speech.  If they let you bring your own laptop, you
> could install Debian, Arch or Ubuntu on it which would give you Speakup.
> If not, you could see if they would let you ssh from Windows with NVDA or
> a different Windows screen reader.  As I said, they're required to provide
> an alternative solution in the US, so you might even be able to make them
> let you borrow a machine.
>
> I don't know anything about your work, but a better approach might be to
> talk to your employer.  Yes, I realize that Red Hat gives the
> certification, but your employer might be able to somehow work with Red
> Hat and/or let you borrow a machine, especially since the point in getting
> it is for work.  In the US, employers with more than I think 10 employees
> are required to make accomodations as necessary for accessibility.  An
> example would be buying someone a screen reader so they can do their job.
>
> In conclusion, I would suggest studying the Americans with Disabilities
> Act, or ADA.  I really don't know if it will help you, but at least you'll
> know what's required by US companies.  The ACB has several ADA seminars
> from the various conventions online.  I'm sure the NFB does as well.  I
> would suggest the following two sites:
>
> http://www.acb.org/
> http://www.acbradio.org/
>
> I know there is an organization in Australia as well which might be able
> to help.  Please let us know what happens as I would be very interested to
> see what Red Hat says.
>
> On 3/28/2013 10:16 PM, Jason White wrote:
>> Sean Murphy<speakup@linux-speakup.org>  wrote:
>>>
>>> I am going to prep for the Red Hat Admin certifications. I need to
>>> know if what screen reader is available on the console? Speakup you
> have to compile into the Kernel. So I am not sure if this can be done or
> not. Any suggestions on how to get this console to work?
>>
>> I don't know, but have you contacted Red Hat about it? It's their
>> certification, after all, hence in their business interests to ensure
>> it's accessible to you. there might also be legal implications
>> depending on the laws in force in your country.
>>
>> I am sure that others on this list will have advice to offer, but I
>> think raising the issue with Red Hat would be a very good idea not
>> only for you but for the benefit of others with access needs.
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

RE: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2

[Amanda Rush]

Thanks for this info Kelly.



-----Original Message-----
From: Speakup [mailto:speakup-bounces@linux-speakup.org] On Behalf Of
Kelly Prescott
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 9:30 AM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: RE: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2

I tried to do RHCE certification way back in the earliest days when they
made it available, and they flat told me that it was not possible and they
wouldn't even adapt the training so I could take it.
I see there attitude has not changed.
I am not sure of the real value of the cert in any case unless your
employer specifically requires it.
You might try the LPI certifications at www.lpi.org The advantage is they
are vendor neutral and they still cover all necessary skills.
When I asked them about adapting, they were inthusiastic about doing it
and asked me what we could come up with to make it work for me.
I was down sized soon after starting that conversation, but I think they
might be more willing to help.

-- Kelly Prescott


  On Fri, 29 Mar 2013,
Amanda Rush wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Red Hat will not allow you to compile Speakup into the RHEL kernel.
> Also, if you're certifying for RHEL6.2 or any of the other RHEL
> versions, you're expected to specifically use that distro. Also, they
> will not allow you to bring in your own system and SSH into one of
> their boxes to do the certification. As of this point, there is a VM
> you have to use that is provided by Red Hat that you have to use to
> complete the cert, as well as one for going through the curriculum,
> and speakup is definitely not part of it. I tried getting speakup to
> compile on both of these, and was unsuccessful. And in order to
> complete the curriculum for the cert, there are scripts that have to
> run on your VM so that Red Hat's servers can grade your labs. You
> could try accessing the grading pages via SSH, but you're going to
> have to use Elinks to do it, and Elinks doesn't play well with their
grading page.
>
> I'd like to say Red Hat is just apathetic to accessibility concerns,
> or that they just don't know any better, but given that they pretty
> much are actively discouraging anyone who needs to use adaptive
> technology by taking all these steps, I'm not so sure. I think the
> quickest solution will be to talk to your employer and see if you can
> maybe demonstrate that you can complete the tasks on the
> certification, and see if that would suffice for your not having the
> cert. I wish you the best of luck. And yes, if we could get one of the
> advocacy orgs on board and sue Red Hat, that would be great. But it
> would be nice if they didn't settle, because if it doesn't go to
> court, there's no legal precedence when this comes up with another
> organization, (<cough>Cisco</cough>) and then the wheel has to be
reinvented all over again.
>
> Amanda
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Speakup [mailto:speakup-bounces@linux-speakup.org] On Behalf Of
> Tony Baechler
> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 5:36 AM
> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> Subject: Re: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2
>
> Jason, Red Hat has made it very clear that they have no interest in
> accessibility, so I highly doubt that just contacting them would do
> any good.  I say this from looking at their sites and finding nothing
> at all about accessibility.  They don't even ship Speakup with RHEL as
> far as I'm aware, but since it's in staging, maybe they do now.  As I
> recall, 6.2 is rather old and uses a custom kernel with a large set of
> patches, so I don't think you'll get Speakup to compile.  You could
> try compiling as modules and see if it works, but I wouldn't hold my
> breath.  I think the same applies to CentOS as well.  I'm not sure about
Fedora.
>
> I don't know if Australia has any kind of accessibility laws, but I
> know the US and UK do.  Probably someone in the US would have to ask
> Red Hat to make an accessible solution available which they would
> probably refuse to do.  It would then have to go to lawyers to settle.
> It might not end up in a suit, but it very well might.  Most likely,
> an advocacy organization like the ACB or NFB would have to push Red Hat
and it could take years.
> Obviously, that won't help with the immediate problem.  By law, they
> are required to provide an accessibility solution for you.  Since
> you're in Australia, I really don't know if any of this would apply to
you or not.
> I would suggest asking if you can do the certification with ssh to the
> RHEL box.  There are ssh clients for Linux and Windows, so one way or
> the other, you could have speech.  If they let you bring your own
> laptop, you could install Debian, Arch or Ubuntu on it which would give
you Speakup.
> If not, you could see if they would let you ssh from Windows with NVDA
> or a different Windows screen reader.  As I said, they're required to
> provide an alternative solution in the US, so you might even be able
> to make them let you borrow a machine.
>
> I don't know anything about your work, but a better approach might be
> to talk to your employer.  Yes, I realize that Red Hat gives the
> certification, but your employer might be able to somehow work with
> Red Hat and/or let you borrow a machine, especially since the point in
> getting it is for work.  In the US, employers with more than I think
> 10 employees are required to make accomodations as necessary for
> accessibility.  An example would be buying someone a screen reader so
they can do their job.
>
> In conclusion, I would suggest studying the Americans with
> Disabilities Act, or ADA.  I really don't know if it will help you,
> but at least you'll know what's required by US companies.  The ACB has
> several ADA seminars from the various conventions online.  I'm sure
> the NFB does as well.  I would suggest the following two sites:
>
> http://www.acb.org/
> http://www.acbradio.org/
>
> I know there is an organization in Australia as well which might be
> able to help.  Please let us know what happens as I would be very
> interested to see what Red Hat says.
>
> On 3/28/2013 10:16 PM, Jason White wrote:
>> Sean Murphy<speakup@linux-speakup.org>  wrote:
>>>
>>> I am going to prep for the Red Hat Admin certifications. I need to
>>> know if what screen reader is available on the console? Speakup you
> have to compile into the Kernel. So I am not sure if this can be done
> or not. Any suggestions on how to get this console to work?
>>
>> I don't know, but have you contacted Red Hat about it? It's their
>> certification, after all, hence in their business interests to ensure
>> it's accessible to you. there might also be legal implications
>> depending on the laws in force in your country.
>>
>> I am sure that others on this list will have advice to offer, but I
>> think raising the issue with Red Hat would be a very good idea not
>> only for you but for the benefit of others with access needs.
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@linux-speakup.org
http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2

[John G. Heim]

I ttalked to someone here at the University of Wisconsin who manages Red 
Hat servers. The UW has a site license for Red Hat. I don't know 
anything about it because my department uses debian (lucky for me).

Anyway, he said the reason RH still doesn't give you speakup is that 
their current release still uses a 2.6.32 kernel and speakup wsn't 
included in the official kernel source until 2.6.37 -- which is correct, 
I believe.

In a way, I can understand where RH is coming from but, holy cow, they 
are making it impossible for blind people to get certification from 
them. That's outrageous!  I mean, I hate to use this cliche but this is 
an outrage. Personally, I don't give a flying fig about Red Hat because 
my department uses debian. But even so, I find this  unconcionable. 
Somebody ought to sue their ass.

On 03/29/2013 07:58 AM, Amanda Rush wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Red Hat will not allow you to compile Speakup into the RHEL kernel. Also,
> if you're certifying for RHEL6.2 or any of the other RHEL versions, you're
> expected to specifically use that distro. Also, they will not allow you to
> bring in your own system and SSH into one of their boxes to do the
> certification. As of this point, there is a VM you have to use that is
> provided by Red Hat that you have to use to complete the cert, as well as
> one for going through the curriculum, and speakup is definitely not part
> of it. I tried getting speakup to compile on both of these, and was
> unsuccessful. And in order to complete the curriculum for the cert, there
> are scripts that have to run on your VM so that Red Hat's servers can
> grade your labs. You could try accessing the grading pages via SSH, but
> you're going to have to use Elinks to do it, and Elinks doesn't play well
> with their grading page.
>
> I'd like to say Red Hat is just apathetic to accessibility concerns, or
> that they just don't know any better, but given that they pretty much are
> actively discouraging anyone who needs to use adaptive technology by
> taking all these steps, I'm not so sure. I think the quickest solution
> will be to talk to your employer and see if you can maybe demonstrate that
> you can complete the tasks on the certification, and see if that would
> suffice for your not having the cert. I wish you the best of luck. And
> yes, if we could get one of the advocacy orgs on board and sue Red Hat,
> that would be great. But it would be nice if they didn't settle, because
> if it doesn't go to court, there's no legal precedence when this comes up
> with another organization, (<cough>Cisco</cough>) and then the wheel has
> to be reinvented all over again.
>
> Amanda
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Speakup [mailto:speakup-bounces@linux-speakup.org] On Behalf Of Tony
> Baechler
> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 5:36 AM
> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> Subject: Re: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2
>
> Jason, Red Hat has made it very clear that they have no interest in
> accessibility, so I highly doubt that just contacting them would do any
> good.  I say this from looking at their sites and finding nothing at all
> about accessibility.  They don't even ship Speakup with RHEL as far as I'm
> aware, but since it's in staging, maybe they do now.  As I recall, 6.2 is
> rather old and uses a custom kernel with a large set of patches, so I
> don't think you'll get Speakup to compile.  You could try compiling as
> modules and see if it works, but I wouldn't hold my breath.  I think the
> same applies to CentOS as well.  I'm not sure about Fedora.
>
> I don't know if Australia has any kind of accessibility laws, but I know
> the US and UK do.  Probably someone in the US would have to ask Red Hat to
> make an accessible solution available which they would probably refuse to
> do.  It would then have to go to lawyers to settle.  It might not end up
> in a suit, but it very well might.  Most likely, an advocacy organization
> like the ACB or NFB would have to push Red Hat and it could take years.
> Obviously, that won't help with the immediate problem.  By law, they are
> required to provide an accessibility solution for you.  Since you're in
> Australia, I really don't know if any of this would apply to you or not.
> I would suggest asking if you can do the certification with ssh to the
> RHEL box.  There are ssh clients for Linux and Windows, so one way or the
> other, you could have speech.  If they let you bring your own laptop, you
> could install Debian, Arch or Ubuntu on it which would give you Speakup.
> If not, you could see if they would let you ssh from Windows with NVDA or
> a different Windows screen reader.  As I said, they're required to provide
> an alternative solution in the US, so you might even be able to make them
> let you borrow a machine.
>
> I don't know anything about your work, but a better approach might be to
> talk to your employer.  Yes, I realize that Red Hat gives the
> certification, but your employer might be able to somehow work with Red
> Hat and/or let you borrow a machine, especially since the point in getting
> it is for work.  In the US, employers with more than I think 10 employees
> are required to make accomodations as necessary for accessibility.  An
> example would be buying someone a screen reader so they can do their job.
>
> In conclusion, I would suggest studying the Americans with Disabilities
> Act, or ADA.  I really don't know if it will help you, but at least you'll
> know what's required by US companies.  The ACB has several ADA seminars
> from the various conventions online.  I'm sure the NFB does as well.  I
> would suggest the following two sites:
>
> http://www.acb.org/
> http://www.acbradio.org/
>
> I know there is an organization in Australia as well which might be able
> to help.  Please let us know what happens as I would be very interested to
> see what Red Hat says.
>
> On 3/28/2013 10:16 PM, Jason White wrote:
>> Sean Murphy<speakup@linux-speakup.org>  wrote:
>>>
>>> I am going to prep for the Red Hat Admin certifications. I need to
>>> know if what screen reader is available on the console? Speakup you
> have to compile into the Kernel. So I am not sure if this can be done or
> not. Any suggestions on how to get this console to work?
>>
>> I don't know, but have you contacted Red Hat about it? It's their
>> certification, after all, hence in their business interests to ensure
>> it's accessible to you. there might also be legal implications
>> depending on the laws in force in your country.
>>
>> I am sure that others on this list will have advice to offer, but I
>> think raising the issue with Red Hat would be a very good idea not
>> only for you but for the benefit of others with access needs.
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2

[Tony Baechler]

Yes, Speakup wasn't officially in 2.6.32 kernels, but it could still be 
compiled as modules.  Debian Squeeze ships it, but they don't use a Red Hat 
kernel.  Even now, they can still make the argument that Speakup isn't 
"official" because it's in staging which is considered unofficial. 
Regardless, there are other ways of accessing RHEL such as ssh and there is 
still no excuse why they can't comply with the ADA and make RHEL accessible 
for certification.  Also, there is yasr and Gnome Terminal with Orca, so 
even without Speakup, there is still no excuse.  That still doesn't address 
the graphical part of the requirement or the ability or lack thereof to use 
the VM.

On 3/29/2013 6:18 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
> I ttalked to someone here at the University of Wisconsin who manages Red Hat
> servers. The UW has a site license for Red Hat. I don't know anything about
> it because my department uses debian (lucky for me).
>
> Anyway, he said the reason RH still doesn't give you speakup is that their
> current release still uses a 2.6.32 kernel and speakup wsn't included in the
> official kernel source until 2.6.37 -- which is correct, I believe.
>
> In a way, I can understand where RH is coming from but, holy cow, they are
> making it impossible for blind people to get certification from them. That's
> outrageous! I mean, I hate to use this cliche but this is an outrage.
> Personally, I don't give a flying fig about Red Hat because my department
> uses debian. But even so, I find this unconcionable. Somebody ought to sue
> their ass.

Re: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2

[John G. Heim]

IMO, the shocking thing isn't that REL doesn't have the speakup modules, 
it's that Red Hat apparently just threw up it's hands and said, "Sorry, 
blind people, no certs for you." Somebody should  sue them. There's no 
substitute for certification from RH itself. They *have* to make that 
accessible.

This is the kind of thing that steams my wheaties. It's part of the 
reason I help create the International Association of Visually Impaired 
Technologists (www.iavit.org).

On 03/29/2013 10:33 AM, Tony Baechler wrote:
> Yes, Speakup wasn't officially in 2.6.32 kernels, but it could still be
> compiled as modules.  Debian Squeeze ships it, but they don't use a Red
> Hat kernel.  Even now, they can still make the argument that Speakup
> isn't "official" because it's in staging which is considered unofficial.
> Regardless, there are other ways of accessing RHEL such as ssh and there
> is still no excuse why they can't comply with the ADA and make RHEL
> accessible for certification.  Also, there is yasr and Gnome Terminal
> with Orca, so even without Speakup, there is still no excuse.  That
> still doesn't address the graphical part of the requirement or the
> ability or lack thereof to use the VM.
>
> On 3/29/2013 6:18 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>> I ttalked to someone here at the University of Wisconsin who manages
>> Red Hat
>> servers. The UW has a site license for Red Hat. I don't know anything
>> about
>> it because my department uses debian (lucky for me).
>>
>> Anyway, he said the reason RH still doesn't give you speakup is that
>> their
>> current release still uses a 2.6.32 kernel and speakup wsn't included
>> in the
>> official kernel source until 2.6.37 -- which is correct, I believe.
>>
>> In a way, I can understand where RH is coming from but, holy cow, they
>> are
>> making it impossible for blind people to get certification from them.
>> That's
>> outrageous! I mean, I hate to use this cliche but this is an outrage.
>> Personally, I don't give a flying fig about Red Hat because my department
>> uses debian. But even so, I find this unconcionable. Somebody ought to
>> sue
>> their ass.
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

RE: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2

[Amanda Rush]

I spoke to my local and state NFB representatives last year around this
time, and was told that if I could find a lawyer who would take this on,
and provide the money and other such, then the NFB would then maybe be
willing to back this. But since I'm not rich, and don't have steady work,
this is pretty much impossible. I would love to find someone possibly more
in the know/higher up to talk to. People's jobs and educations are on the
line because of this.



-----Original Message-----
From: Speakup [mailto:speakup-bounces@linux-speakup.org] On Behalf Of John
G. Heim
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 10:48 AM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2

IMO, the shocking thing isn't that REL doesn't have the speakup modules,
it's that Red Hat apparently just threw up it's hands and said, "Sorry,
blind people, no certs for you." Somebody should  sue them. There's no
substitute for certification from RH itself. They *have* to make that
accessible.

This is the kind of thing that steams my wheaties. It's part of the reason
I help create the International Association of Visually Impaired
Technologists (www.iavit.org).

On 03/29/2013 10:33 AM, Tony Baechler wrote:
> Yes, Speakup wasn't officially in 2.6.32 kernels, but it could still
> be compiled as modules.  Debian Squeeze ships it, but they don't use a
> Red Hat kernel.  Even now, they can still make the argument that
> Speakup isn't "official" because it's in staging which is considered
unofficial.
> Regardless, there are other ways of accessing RHEL such as ssh and
> there is still no excuse why they can't comply with the ADA and make
> RHEL accessible for certification.  Also, there is yasr and Gnome
> Terminal with Orca, so even without Speakup, there is still no excuse.
> That still doesn't address the graphical part of the requirement or
> the ability or lack thereof to use the VM.
>
> On 3/29/2013 6:18 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>> I ttalked to someone here at the University of Wisconsin who manages
>> Red Hat servers. The UW has a site license for Red Hat. I don't know
>> anything about it because my department uses debian (lucky for me).
>>
>> Anyway, he said the reason RH still doesn't give you speakup is that
>> their current release still uses a 2.6.32 kernel and speakup wsn't
>> included in the official kernel source until 2.6.37 -- which is
>> correct, I believe.
>>
>> In a way, I can understand where RH is coming from but, holy cow,
>> they are making it impossible for blind people to get certification
>> from them.
>> That's
>> outrageous! I mean, I hate to use this cliche but this is an outrage.
>> Personally, I don't give a flying fig about Red Hat because my
>> department uses debian. But even so, I find this unconcionable.
>> Somebody ought to sue their ass.
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@linux-speakup.org
http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2

[John G. Heim]

I'll ask IAVIT's lawyer about it this afternoon. I know he feels very 
strongly about this stuff but I can't volunteer his time.  I am about as 
sure as I can be though, that he will be willing to advise anyone who 
wants to get started. I'm sure he can tell you exactly what you have a 
right to ask of Red Hat and what to do if they turn you down.
On 03/29/2013 10:33 AM, Amanda Rush wrote:
> I spoke to my local and state NFB representatives last year around this
> time, and was told that if I could find a lawyer who would take this on,
> and provide the money and other such, then the NFB would then maybe be
> willing to back this. But since I'm not rich, and don't have steady work,
> this is pretty much impossible. I would love to find someone possibly more
> in the know/higher up to talk to. People's jobs and educations are on the
> line because of this.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Speakup [mailto:speakup-bounces@linux-speakup.org] On Behalf Of John
> G. Heim
> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 10:48 AM
> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> Subject: Re: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2
>
> IMO, the shocking thing isn't that REL doesn't have the speakup modules,
> it's that Red Hat apparently just threw up it's hands and said, "Sorry,
> blind people, no certs for you." Somebody should  sue them. There's no
> substitute for certification from RH itself. They *have* to make that
> accessible.
>
> This is the kind of thing that steams my wheaties. It's part of the reason
> I help create the International Association of Visually Impaired
> Technologists (www.iavit.org).
>
> On 03/29/2013 10:33 AM, Tony Baechler wrote:
>> Yes, Speakup wasn't officially in 2.6.32 kernels, but it could still
>> be compiled as modules.  Debian Squeeze ships it, but they don't use a
>> Red Hat kernel.  Even now, they can still make the argument that
>> Speakup isn't "official" because it's in staging which is considered
> unofficial.
>> Regardless, there are other ways of accessing RHEL such as ssh and
>> there is still no excuse why they can't comply with the ADA and make
>> RHEL accessible for certification.  Also, there is yasr and Gnome
>> Terminal with Orca, so even without Speakup, there is still no excuse.
>> That still doesn't address the graphical part of the requirement or
>> the ability or lack thereof to use the VM.
>>
>> On 3/29/2013 6:18 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>> I ttalked to someone here at the University of Wisconsin who manages
>>> Red Hat servers. The UW has a site license for Red Hat. I don't know
>>> anything about it because my department uses debian (lucky for me).
>>>
>>> Anyway, he said the reason RH still doesn't give you speakup is that
>>> their current release still uses a 2.6.32 kernel and speakup wsn't
>>> included in the official kernel source until 2.6.37 -- which is
>>> correct, I believe.
>>>
>>> In a way, I can understand where RH is coming from but, holy cow,
>>> they are making it impossible for blind people to get certification
>>> from them.
>>> That's
>>> outrageous! I mean, I hate to use this cliche but this is an outrage.
>>> Personally, I don't give a flying fig about Red Hat because my
>>> department uses debian. But even so, I find this unconcionable.
>>> Somebody ought to sue their ass.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
>> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2

[Tony Baechler]

Well, I don't want to start an ACB vs. NFB argument, but I would really 
encourage you to talk to the ACB.  As I said, they've been a lot more 
willing to take Linux seriously and have taken on several large corporations 
over the years.  I am not a member of either at the moment, but I don't 
think I've heard of the ACB requiring someone to put up their own money 
before getting official backing.  I don't know what state you're in, but the 
ACB state affiliate might also be able to help.  Some states are stronger 
than others, but unlike the NFB, each state affiliate is its own 
organization which happens to be an ACB affiliate, not part of the umbrella 
organization like NFB affiliates are.  Yes, I was aware of NFB happenings 
for many years, so I'm not making things up off the top of my head.  Even if 
the ACB isn't interested, at least it's another avenue which has been 
explored and eliminated, but I personally think that they would be willing 
to help, especially if a lot of people here complained.  As I said, I 
personally don't use RH products, but I wouldn't mind testing Fedora or RHEL 
for accessibility if RH is willing to listen without being sued.  I'm 
currently doing a similar kind of testing regarding another company who has 
been willing to make their site accessible.  So far, a lot of progress has 
been made without the company being sued.

Another argument to be made to both organizations is that Linux itself is a 
large step towards equality for the blind.  In other words, we can use the 
exact same kernel, console, and command line software as the sighted as long 
as Speakup is included, either compiled into the kernel or as modules.  It 
so happens that 2.6.37 and newer ship Speakup, so we can use an identical 
kernel as the sighted, even if the distro itself isn't 100% accessible, like 
Ubuntu.  In earlier kernels, the Speakup source can still be compiled as 
modules, such as 2.6.32 in Debian Squeeze and others.  With some distros 
such as Debian, it's possible for a blind person to do an 100% independant 
install from the time the CD boots to shutting down.  There is no reason why 
Fedora at least can't provide an accessible installation as well.  In other 
words, unlike Windows, we don't need to buy screen readers, pay for upgrades 
and get sighted help to do a new install.  Those are powerful arguments when 
it comes to potential employability for blind system administrators. 
Personally, I think the most powerful thing about Speakup and Linux in 
general isn't that it talks, reads the screen, or even that I can run most 
console programs.  To me, the most powerful thing is that I can run the 
exact same versions of Apache, Postfix, MySQL, php, etc as anyone else 
managing a Linux server.  Alas, not from the RHEL console though, only from 
ssh after someone else has done the install.

On 3/29/2013 7:33 AM, Amanda Rush wrote:
> I spoke to my local and state NFB representatives last year around this
> time, and was told that if I could find a lawyer who would take this on,
> and provide the money and other such, then the NFB would then maybe be
> willing to back this. But since I'm not rich, and don't have steady work,
> this is pretty much impossible. I would love to find someone possibly more
> in the know/higher up to talk to. People's jobs and educations are on the
> line because of this.

Re: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2

[Al Sten-Clanton]

I'd think they also could adapt their views on how "official" something 
must be for inclusion.  These are human choices, not things decreed by 
nature or some divinity.

Al

On 03/29/2013 11:33 AM, Tony Baechler wrote:
> Yes, Speakup wasn't officially in 2.6.32 kernels, but it could still be
> compiled as modules.  Debian Squeeze ships it, but they don't use a Red
> Hat kernel.  Even now, they can still make the argument that Speakup
> isn't "official" because it's in staging which is considered unofficial.
> Regardless, there are other ways of accessing RHEL such as ssh and there
> is still no excuse why they can't comply with the ADA and make RHEL
> accessible for certification.  Also, there is yasr and Gnome Terminal
> with Orca, so even without Speakup, there is still no excuse.  That
> still doesn't address the graphical part of the requirement or the
> ability or lack thereof to use the VM.
>
> On 3/29/2013 6:18 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>> I ttalked to someone here at the University of Wisconsin who manages
>> Red Hat
>> servers. The UW has a site license for Red Hat. I don't know anything
>> about
>> it because my department uses debian (lucky for me).
>>
>> Anyway, he said the reason RH still doesn't give you speakup is that
>> their
>> current release still uses a 2.6.32 kernel and speakup wsn't included
>> in the
>> official kernel source until 2.6.37 -- which is correct, I believe.
>>
>> In a way, I can understand where RH is coming from but, holy cow, they
>> are
>> making it impossible for blind people to get certification from them.
>> That's
>> outrageous! I mean, I hate to use this cliche but this is an outrage.
>> Personally, I don't give a flying fig about Red Hat because my department
>> uses debian. But even so, I find this unconcionable. Somebody ought to
>> sue
>> their ass.
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

RE: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2

[Amanda Rush]

The whole thing is completely frustrating and ridiculous. This is Linux
we're talking about. There are perfectly acceptable ways to handle this
and make it accessible. Alow people to do the cert tasks and curriculum
tasks via SSH. Give us another way to run the grading scripts without
having to use Elinks since that doesn't work with the updated, modern
button on the page so we end up having to have sighted assistance to do
all the labs because the grading is time-sensitive. Sorry, I don't mean to
go off on this list, but this is something I fought with for three years
until I finally had to quit because this stuff was effecting my GPA thanks
to not being able to take the Redhat courses, which meant I couldn't take
the cert, which meant I couldn't pass the classes I needed to get to the
next step of earning my degree in IT. Not that the degree was what I was
looking for, but I kept hitting brick walls, and it got to the point where
the finances ran out and I could no longer continue. So yeah, I'm bitter.
And I'm especially so because there's absolutely no reason why it has to
be this way.



-----Original Message-----
From: Speakup [mailto:speakup-bounces@linux-speakup.org] On Behalf Of Tony
Baechler
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 11:33 AM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2

Yes, Speakup wasn't officially in 2.6.32 kernels, but it could still be
compiled as modules.  Debian Squeeze ships it, but they don't use a Red
Hat kernel.  Even now, they can still make the argument that Speakup isn't
"official" because it's in staging which is considered unofficial.
Regardless, there are other ways of accessing RHEL such as ssh and there
is still no excuse why they can't comply with the ADA and make RHEL
accessible for certification.  Also, there is yasr and Gnome Terminal with
Orca, so even without Speakup, there is still no excuse.  That still
doesn't address the graphical part of the requirement or the ability or
lack thereof to use the VM.

On 3/29/2013 6:18 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
> I ttalked to someone here at the University of Wisconsin who manages
> Red Hat servers. The UW has a site license for Red Hat. I don't know
> anything about it because my department uses debian (lucky for me).
>
> Anyway, he said the reason RH still doesn't give you speakup is that
> their current release still uses a 2.6.32 kernel and speakup wsn't
> included in the official kernel source until 2.6.37 -- which is correct,
I believe.
>
> In a way, I can understand where RH is coming from but, holy cow, they
> are making it impossible for blind people to get certification from
> them. That's outrageous! I mean, I hate to use this cliche but this is
an outrage.
> Personally, I don't give a flying fig about Red Hat because my
> department uses debian. But even so, I find this unconcionable.
> Somebody ought to sue their ass.
_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@linux-speakup.org
http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2

[Tony Baechler]

Ah well, that's about what I figured the situation was.  Thanks for 
clarifying.  I know I tried compiling Speakup into a RHEL kernel and gave 
up, but that was before it could be compiled as modules.  However, my 
comments still apply in that Red Hat is required by law to provide an 
alternative accomodation.  I'm not so sure that a suit is necessary, but 
maybe it is.  I am no longer up on current NFB happenings, but it seems that 
they aren't really serious about Linux accessibility anyway since their 
servers are running Windows.  The ACB has actively supported Linux since 
2000 and would probably be the best choice of an advocacy organization. 
Here are a few sites of possible interest:

http://lflegal.com/

The law firm above specializes in structured negotiations, meaning that they 
try very hard to work with companies before suing, but they will sue if 
necessary.

http://www.acb.org/

This should be obvious.  The American Council of the Blind specializes in 
advocacy and it's worth calling their offices.

http://www.bits-acb.org/

BITS is an affiliate of ACB and stands for Blind Information Technology 
Specialists.  They were mainly interested in Windows when I was a member, 
but it might be worth asking them to get involved.

As for myself, since Debian does take accessibility seriously and I don't 
need to use Red Hat, I stay away from it and don't plan to support it in the 
near future.  It would be nice if Red Hat would change their position, but I 
think there is more than apathy here.  I know of several people who've 
reached the same conclusion as I have, secifically that they've made it 
clear that they are not interested in accessibility.  Fortunately, unlike 
Windows, there are lots of distros to choose from, but it's too bad that so 
many companies choose RHEL.

On 3/29/2013 4:58 AM, Amanda Rush wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Red Hat will not allow you to compile Speakup into the RHEL kernel. Also,
> if you're certifying for RHEL6.2 or any of the other RHEL versions, you're
> expected to specifically use that distro. Also, they will not allow you to
> bring in your own system and SSH into one of their boxes to do the
> certification. As of this point, there is a VM you have to use that is
> provided by Red Hat that you have to use to complete the cert, as well as
> one for going through the curriculum, and speakup is definitely not part
> of it. I tried getting speakup to compile on both of these, and was
> unsuccessful. And in order to complete the curriculum for the cert, there
> are scripts that have to run on your VM so that Red Hat's servers can
> grade your labs. You could try accessing the grading pages via SSH, but
> you're going to have to use Elinks to do it, and Elinks doesn't play well
> with their grading page.
>
> I'd like to say Red Hat is just apathetic to accessibility concerns, or
> that they just don't know any better, but given that they pretty much are
> actively discouraging anyone who needs to use adaptive technology by
> taking all these steps, I'm not so sure. I think the quickest solution
> will be to talk to your employer and see if you can maybe demonstrate that
> you can complete the tasks on the certification, and see if that would
> suffice for your not having the cert. I wish you the best of luck. And
> yes, if we could get one of the advocacy orgs on board and sue Red Hat,
> that would be great. But it would be nice if they didn't settle, because
> if it doesn't go to court, there's no legal precedence when this comes up
> with another organization, (<cough>Cisco</cough>) and then the wheel has
> to be reinvented all over again.
>
> Amanda

Re: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2

[John G. Heim]

The International Association of Visually Impaired Technologists is 
currently working on creating a team to work with technology providers 
to make their products accessible.  I happen to be President of this 
organization. If anybody is interested in helping with this, email me 
off-list (jheim@math.wisc.edu).

Our web site is at www.iavit.org.




On 03/29/2013 10:03 AM, Tony Baechler wrote:
> Ah well, that's about what I figured the situation was.  Thanks for
> clarifying.  I know I tried compiling Speakup into a RHEL kernel and
> gave up, but that was before it could be compiled as modules.  However,
> my comments still apply in that Red Hat is required by law to provide an
> alternative accomodation.  I'm not so sure that a suit is necessary, but
> maybe it is.  I am no longer up on current NFB happenings, but it seems
> that they aren't really serious about Linux accessibility anyway since
> their servers are running Windows.  The ACB has actively supported Linux
> since 2000 and would probably be the best choice of an advocacy
> organization. Here are a few sites of possible interest:
>
> http://lflegal.com/
>
> The law firm above specializes in structured negotiations, meaning that
> they try very hard to work with companies before suing, but they will
> sue if necessary.
>
> http://www.acb.org/
>
> This should be obvious.  The American Council of the Blind specializes
> in advocacy and it's worth calling their offices.
>
> http://www.bits-acb.org/
>
> BITS is an affiliate of ACB and stands for Blind Information Technology
> Specialists.  They were mainly interested in Windows when I was a
> member, but it might be worth asking them to get involved.
>
> As for myself, since Debian does take accessibility seriously and I
> don't need to use Red Hat, I stay away from it and don't plan to support
> it in the near future.  It would be nice if Red Hat would change their
> position, but I think there is more than apathy here.  I know of several
> people who've reached the same conclusion as I have, secifically that
> they've made it clear that they are not interested in accessibility.
> Fortunately, unlike Windows, there are lots of distros to choose from,
> but it's too bad that so many companies choose RHEL.
>
> On 3/29/2013 4:58 AM, Amanda Rush wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Red Hat will not allow you to compile Speakup into the RHEL kernel. Also,
>> if you're certifying for RHEL6.2 or any of the other RHEL versions,
>> you're
>> expected to specifically use that distro. Also, they will not allow
>> you to
>> bring in your own system and SSH into one of their boxes to do the
>> certification. As of this point, there is a VM you have to use that is
>> provided by Red Hat that you have to use to complete the cert, as well as
>> one for going through the curriculum, and speakup is definitely not part
>> of it. I tried getting speakup to compile on both of these, and was
>> unsuccessful. And in order to complete the curriculum for the cert, there
>> are scripts that have to run on your VM so that Red Hat's servers can
>> grade your labs. You could try accessing the grading pages via SSH, but
>> you're going to have to use Elinks to do it, and Elinks doesn't play well
>> with their grading page.
>>
>> I'd like to say Red Hat is just apathetic to accessibility concerns, or
>> that they just don't know any better, but given that they pretty much are
>> actively discouraging anyone who needs to use adaptive technology by
>> taking all these steps, I'm not so sure. I think the quickest solution
>> will be to talk to your employer and see if you can maybe demonstrate
>> that
>> you can complete the tasks on the certification, and see if that would
>> suffice for your not having the cert. I wish you the best of luck. And
>> yes, if we could get one of the advocacy orgs on board and sue Red Hat,
>> that would be great. But it would be nice if they didn't settle, because
>> if it doesn't go to court, there's no legal precedence when this comes up
>> with another organization, (<cough>Cisco</cough>) and then the wheel has
>> to be reinvented all over again.
>>
>> Amanda
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2

[Jason White]

Tony Baechler  <speakup@linux-speakup.org> wrote:
>Jason, Red Hat has made it very clear that they have no interest in 
>accessibility, so I highly doubt that just contacting them would do any 
>good.  I say this from looking at their sites and finding nothing at all 
>about accessibility.  They don't even ship Speakup with RHEL as far as I'm 
>aware, but since it's in staging, maybe they do now.  

Actually, Red Hat do maintain accessibility-related packages for their
distribution (such as Gnome/Orca) and they've contributed in the past to Gnome
accessibility, so I think it's wrong to claim that they have no interest in
the issue.

If they don't hear about it from customers or potential customers, or from
people who seek certification, it won't register strongly among their
priorities. This is why I would encourage anyone interested in certification
to contact Red Hat about their accessibility needs.

Re: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2

[Sean Murphy]

Team,


thanks for all the input. Once again, we have major hurdles to over come in relation to certifications. I have already done a lot of work in another area of certifications which I cannot discuss here. It looks like I have to start another  education program/campain to get some improvements done.


I hate to think what other certifications barriers are out there in Admin, networking, project, etc that is put in our way. 
Yes, we live in a sighted world. The certification testing centres or vendors who force people in the relevant industries should be held responsible for preventing VI's from getting certifications in turn getting jobs. Cert's is what is used to short list people in the I.T industry.

I will ring Red Hat next week and let you know how it goes.


Sean 
On 30/03/2013, at 10:25 AM, Jason White <jason@jasonjgw.net> wrote:

> Tony Baechler  <speakup@linux-speakup.org> wrote:
>> Jason, Red Hat has made it very clear that they have no interest in 
>> accessibility, so I highly doubt that just contacting them would do any 
>> good.  I say this from looking at their sites and finding nothing at all 
>> about accessibility.  They don't even ship Speakup with RHEL as far as I'm 
>> aware, but since it's in staging, maybe they do now.  
> 
> Actually, Red Hat do maintain accessibility-related packages for their
> distribution (such as Gnome/Orca) and they've contributed in the past to Gnome
> accessibility, so I think it's wrong to claim that they have no interest in
> the issue.
> 
> If they don't hear about it from customers or potential customers, or from
> people who seek certification, it won't register strongly among their
> priorities. This is why I would encourage anyone interested in certification
> to contact Red Hat about their accessibility needs.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Red Hat Enterprise 6.2

[Tony Baechler]

Yes, but that argument doesn't hold water.  FreeBSD ships Gnome as well, 
also with Orca.  They have made no attempt to even try to implement 
something similar to Speakup.  It's what I would call token accessibility. 
They can say that yes, they support accessibility because they ship 
accessibility packages, but you and I know perfectly well that Orca doesn't 
do any good at the console when the machine won't boot.  Just for your 
information, you can probably run Orca in Windows as well since it's written 
in Python and all of the Gnome packages are compiled for Windows and 
probably Cygwin, but again, that doesn't make Windows or Cygwin accessible. 
  I've seen the Windows installers for all of the major Gnome packages and 
Python.

On 3/29/2013 3:25 PM, Jason White wrote:
> Tony Baechler<speakup@linux-speakup.org>  wrote:
>> Jason, Red Hat has made it very clear that they have no interest in
>> accessibility, so I highly doubt that just contacting them would do any
>> good.  I say this from looking at their sites and finding nothing at all
>> about accessibility.  They don't even ship Speakup with RHEL as far as I'm
>> aware, but since it's in staging, maybe they do now.
>
> Actually, Red Hat do maintain accessibility-related packages for their
> distribution (such as Gnome/Orca) and they've contributed in the past to Gnome
> accessibility, so I think it's wrong to claim that they have no interest in
> the issue.
>
> If they don't hear about it from customers or potential customers, or from
> people who seek certification, it won't register strongly among their
> priorities. This is why I would encourage anyone interested in certification
> to contact Red Hat about their accessibility needs.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
Have a good day,
Tony Baechler
tony@baechler.net