* Software speech opinions @ Keith Hinton ` Jan Buchal ` Doug Sutherland 0 siblings, 2 replies; 34+ messages in thread From: Keith Hinton @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Hi Kirk and all at the Speakup mailing list. I wanted to express my opinions on Speakup's actual design itself and with software speech. First, I hope that Speech-Dispatcher and SpeechD-up (wich are free open source projects) continue to receive bugfixes in CVS, as much as possible, and that at some point all SMP related issues are solved. What if some users need Speech-Dispatcher Hynek eaven after the TTS API provider has been created and works? I suggest still keeping the project around and improving it. Not with features, (Speech-Dispatcher is already cool as it is) but that bugfixes and updates of that type can still be maintained for those who still wish to use it. Now, regarding Speakup itself, I believe Hardware speech is going to be a thing of the passed; especially with computers becoming USB-connection based, and having nno serial ports. My new Gateway desktop is a perfect example. Also, most Linux LiveCD's refuse to use anything but a speakup hardware module, and therefore I wonder if softsynth should be really the approach here? I have to SSH most Linux installations from a working software-enabled Speakup machine here on my network anyways. So there is still a use for old technology, however I wonder if Speakup could be patched to work with USB/firewire/newer synthesizers, and rewrite it's interface so that it uses drivers like softsynth? BTW Kirk, where is the documentation for softsynth itself and how that works? It is not well documented, and I have been wanting to play with writing my own drivers, and do not have a clear API for Speakup/Sftsyn. Regards, --Keith Skype: skypedude1234 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* Re: Software speech opinions Software speech opinions Keith Hinton @ ` Jan Buchal ` Doug Sutherland 1 sibling, 0 replies; 34+ messages in thread From: Jan Buchal @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. >>>>> "KH" == Keith Hinton <keithint38@CommSpeed.net> writes: KH> Hi Kirk and all at the Speakup mailing list. I wanted to express KH> my opinions on Speakup's actual design itself and with software KH> speech. First, I hope that Speech-Dispatcher and SpeechD-up KH> (wich are free open source projects) continue to receive KH> bugfixes in CVS, as much as possible, and that at some point all KH> SMP related issues are solved. What if some users need KH> Speech-Dispatcher Hynek eaven after the TTS API provider has KH> been created and works? I suggest still keeping the project KH> around and improving it. Not with features, (Speech-Dispatcher KH> is already cool as it is) but that bugfixes and updates of that KH> type can still be maintained for those who still wish to use it. Hello, speech dispatcher in C implementation is still one of key Brailcom project. tts-api-provider and a new implementation of speech dispatcher will bring new possibilities but again we will support both variant how long will be necessary. Now you can try a new cvs snapshot of C speech dispatcher where are some bug fixes. Best -- Jan Buchal Tel: (00420) 24 24 86 008 Mob: (00420) 608023021 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* Re: Software speech opinions Software speech opinions Keith Hinton ` Jan Buchal @ ` Doug Sutherland ` Gaijin 1 sibling, 1 reply; 34+ messages in thread From: Doug Sutherland @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. A bit of a delayed reply ... Keith wrote: I believe Hardware speech is going to be a thing of the passed; especially with computers becoming USB-connection based, and having no serial ports. I can't imagine why that should obsolete speech hardware, there will just have to be new drivers and some software work, that's all. -- Doug ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* Re: Software speech opinions ` Doug Sutherland @ ` Gaijin ` Doug Sutherland 0 siblings, 1 reply; 34+ messages in thread From: Gaijin @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. Doug Sutherland wrote: > I can't imagine why that should obsolete speech hardware, there will just > have to be new drivers and some software work, that's all. The new DECTalk Express is USB. It's more a matter of hardware synth manufacturers wanting to continue making money. A Mojo pin drive with Win-Eyes or JAWS and a hardware synth is more portable across Windows platforms. You can plug them into a library computer and go...if they'll let you. Michael ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* Re: Software speech opinions ` Gaijin @ ` Doug Sutherland ` C.M. Brannon ` Gaijin 0 siblings, 2 replies; 34+ messages in thread From: Doug Sutherland @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. What I meant was, if PCs don't have serial ports then synths will be made for USB, and then its a software issue. They will not become obsolete because of USB, in fact USB is arguably much better. There is always someone wanting to make money. What bugs me is when they are greedy. The price of assistive tech in general is obscene. -- Doug ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* Re: Software speech opinions ` Doug Sutherland @ ` C.M. Brannon ` Travis Siegel ` Gaijin 1 sibling, 1 reply; 34+ messages in thread From: C.M. Brannon @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. "Doug Sutherland" <doug@proficio.ca> writes: > What I meant was, if PCs don't have serial ports then synths will be > made for USB, and then its a software issue. They will not become > obsolete because of USB, in fact USB is arguably much better. The problem with the current offerings is that the manufacturers are unwilling to give out programming docs. Hence, no speakup support. I won't do business with those kind of people, even though the Triple Talk is well within my budget. I would suggest that others do the same. I wonder about the possibility of reverse-engineering one of these synths using a Windows system. For example, usbsnoop is a win32 program that can monitor traffic to and from USB devices (see http://benoit.papillault.free.fr/usbsnoop/). -- Chris ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* Re: Software speech opinions ` C.M. Brannon @ ` Travis Siegel ` Glenn Ervin ` Doug Sutherland 0 siblings, 2 replies; 34+ messages in thread From: Travis Siegel @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. This is exactly how I worked out the Artic Technologies serial disk transfer mode. They sold a software pack you could buy for their notetakers that would give you some additional capabilities. The problem was, they wanted several hundred dollars for the floppy drive their system used. (although you could turn your pc into a floppy for the note taker if so desired) This is the program I wrote my own driver for (though I never finished it, so it's not really distributable) But, it's easy enough to pretend to be the drive, and watch what the device sends back. Lots of drivers are written using this approach. And, I see no reason why usb devices should be any different. On Jun 24, 2007, at 1:04 PM, C.M. Brannon wrote: > "Doug Sutherland" <doug@proficio.ca> writes: > >> What I meant was, if PCs don't have serial ports then synths will be >> made for USB, and then its a software issue. They will not become >> obsolete because of USB, in fact USB is arguably much better. > > The problem with the current offerings is that the manufacturers > are unwilling to give out programming docs. Hence, no speakup > support. I won't do business with those kind of people, even though > the Triple Talk is well within my budget. I would suggest that others > do the same. > > I wonder about the possibility of reverse-engineering one > of these synths using a Windows system. For example, usbsnoop is a > win32 program that can monitor traffic to and from USB devices > (see http://benoit.papillault.free.fr/usbsnoop/). > > > -- Chris > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* Re: Software speech opinions ` Travis Siegel @ ` Glenn Ervin ` Doug Sutherland 1 sibling, 0 replies; 34+ messages in thread From: Glenn Ervin @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. That sounds like the utility called PcDisk that Blazie put out for use with the Braille & Speaks. Glenn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Travis Siegel" <tsiegel@softcon.com> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 1:42 PM Subject: Re: Software speech opinions This is exactly how I worked out the Artic Technologies serial disk transfer mode. They sold a software pack you could buy for their notetakers that would give you some additional capabilities. The problem was, they wanted several hundred dollars for the floppy drive their system used. (although you could turn your pc into a floppy for the note taker if so desired) This is the program I wrote my own driver for (though I never finished it, so it's not really distributable) But, it's easy enough to pretend to be the drive, and watch what the device sends back. Lots of drivers are written using this approach. And, I see no reason why usb devices should be any different. On Jun 24, 2007, at 1:04 PM, C.M. Brannon wrote: > "Doug Sutherland" <doug@proficio.ca> writes: > >> What I meant was, if PCs don't have serial ports then synths will be >> made for USB, and then its a software issue. They will not become >> obsolete because of USB, in fact USB is arguably much better. > > The problem with the current offerings is that the manufacturers > are unwilling to give out programming docs. Hence, no speakup > support. I won't do business with those kind of people, even though > the Triple Talk is well within my budget. I would suggest that others > do the same. > > I wonder about the possibility of reverse-engineering one > of these synths using a Windows system. For example, usbsnoop is a > win32 program that can monitor traffic to and from USB devices > (see http://benoit.papillault.free.fr/usbsnoop/). > > > -- Chris > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > _______________________________________________ Speakup mailing list Speakup@braille.uwo.ca http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* Re: Software speech opinions ` Travis Siegel ` Glenn Ervin @ ` Doug Sutherland 1 sibling, 0 replies; 34+ messages in thread From: Doug Sutherland @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. There is also hardware usb analyzers http://www.ellisys.com/products/usbex200/index.php -- Doug ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* Re: Software speech opinions ` Doug Sutherland ` C.M. Brannon @ ` Gaijin ` Gregory Nowak 1 sibling, 1 reply; 34+ messages in thread From: Gaijin @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. Doug Sutherland wrote: > There is always someone wanting to make money. What bugs me is > when they are greedy. The price of assistive tech in general is obscene. I can understand that. We're such a small market that it's necessary to charge so much to recoup the expense of making the stuff. It's relativity. For every action, there's an equal and opposite reaction, and someone is gonna starve. That's why I feel like Linux is so special. People freely offer what we now have, without really depriving little Cindy of what's on her dinner plate. Money doesn't even enter the picture. Michael ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* Re: Software speech opinions ` Gaijin @ ` Gregory Nowak ` Gaijin ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 34+ messages in thread From: Gregory Nowak @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I personally feel, and I don't think I'm alone, that the rnd cost recovery excuse goes only so far. True, rnd costs might have been an issue in the beginning, along with the size of the market the products are aimed at, but let's take for example the screen reader manufacturers for the other popular os. With the kinds of prices they charge, and given the large amount of sails they've most likely made over their product's lifetime, I would have thought they've recovered their rnd costs long, long ago, and then some. No, I think that what's driving prices of A.T. for the most part these days is pure and simple greed, not to mention that these companies' biggest customer is the U.S. government, and that it has deep pockets to boot, from the perspective of the companies. Greg On Sun, Jun 24, 2007 at 07:58:43PM +0100, Gaijin wrote: > I can understand that. We're such a small market that it's > necessary to charge so much to recoup the expense of making the stuff. > It's relativity. For every action, there's an equal and opposite > reaction, and someone is gonna starve. That's why I feel like Linux is > so special. People freely offer what we now have, without really > depriving little Cindy of what's on her dinner plate. Money doesn't > even enter the picture. > > Michael > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup - -- web site: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org gpg public key: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org/pubkey.asc skype: gregn1 (authorization required, add me to your contacts list first) - -- Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFGfzOL7s9z/XlyUyARAklZAJ9vS+K7Si62iGATtamZBl0DhtdXUwCeP17E UBhj3h0aoqYObOeRdjTYkIs= =nVqI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* Re: Software speech opinions ` Gregory Nowak @ ` Gaijin ` Doug Smith ` Doug Sutherland ` Glenn Ervin 2 siblings, 1 reply; 34+ messages in thread From: Gaijin @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. Gregory Nowak wrote: > I personally feel, and I don't think I'm alone, that the rnd cost > recovery excuse goes only so far. That's just the initial cost. The company has to stay in business. That means weekly paychecks for all it's employees so they can support their own families. Even if you sell a few hundred copies this month, next month's bills are just around the corner. Even if the government pays it all, your customer base is still microscopic. It's not fair, but that's life. <shrugs> Michael ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* Re: Software speech opinions ` Gaijin @ ` Doug Smith 0 siblings, 0 replies; 34+ messages in thread From: Doug Smith @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. Well, forget the company. Forget the entire concept of money, economics and all that bullcrap. Long live open source!!! I use espeak with speechd-up, speech-dispatcher, and speakup. I really like it, I really enjoy software speæch because, I have a small laptop, itśs all self-contained, just bust this puppy out, fire it up, and, what do you know, it's thære. It's ready to get me through any computing job I have ever asked it to do. I know that you can see some more of the boot messages with hardware speech, but software speech really is the best. -- Doug Smith: C.S.F.C. Computer Scientist For CHRIST ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* Re: Software speech opinions ` Gregory Nowak ` Gaijin @ ` Doug Sutherland ` Gaijin ` Glenn Ervin 2 siblings, 1 reply; 34+ messages in thread From: Doug Sutherland @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. There is another problem with assistive tech, I'm not sure if or how much this applies to speech, but it became clear to me when discussing ideas for assistive products or projects with people of the type who have money. In every single circumstance, the answer was: there are grants for that. Since the work is done by grants, that is also a way to keep prices jacked up. I have spoken with many people who needs various types of assistive tech and I was quite shocked at the reality of the situation. One woman needed just some kind of special chair and it was thousands of dollars, it can't be done without insurance or some kind of beaurocratic "process'. And herein lies the rub, the people who can make these things affordable do not on purpose. It would seem to be part of the "club" of people who feed each others business interests. I even had one executive type say to me "we are not philantropists" when proposing an assistive tech idea. He didn't get it, there is a market and the market is not "free" because it's artifically inflated by the beurocracy that believes you need "grants" to do anything. I say BS, it's time for some people to just get out and do things, assume they do not need a grant to get an idea moving. It may be slower and uphill but then not relying on "grants" means not being in the "game" that keeps assistive tech away from people who need it. -- Doug ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* Re: Software speech opinions ` Doug Sutherland @ ` Gaijin 0 siblings, 0 replies; 34+ messages in thread From: Gaijin @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. Doug Sutherland wrote: > Since the work is done by grants, that is also a way to > keep prices jacked up. As long as they're doing it for money, barter, or any other kind of payment, we'll lose. If businesses had any compassion, they could run off a few special assistive products just for the hell of it, not to make money, but just to be compassionate. It's the people who absolutely have to make a business out of it, profitable or non-profit, that are screwing us. To *stay* in business, they have to inflate the price. We could all convert to communism, but hello, the government is already confiscating the money to pay for our needs anyway. What's the difference? I don't like it, but there's no other choice. Life blows chunks. <laughs> Michael ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* Re: Software speech opinions ` Gregory Nowak ` Gaijin ` Doug Sutherland @ ` Glenn Ervin ` Doug Sutherland [not found] ` <20070626042409.GA25331@cm.nu> 2 siblings, 2 replies; 34+ messages in thread From: Glenn Ervin @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. I don't like to see profit made on the backs of the disabled. I believe in capitalism, I would have to, as I have a Bachelor's degree in Business management, but profit should be made on things like lawn mowers, not on products which allow the disabled to use off-the-shelf products. Indeed, greed is at play here, and I look forward to the future of "Open-Source". Glenn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregory Nowak" <greg@romuald.net.eu.org> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 10:16 PM Subject: Re: Software speech opinions -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I personally feel, and I don't think I'm alone, that the rnd cost recovery excuse goes only so far. True, rnd costs might have been an issue in the beginning, along with the size of the market the products are aimed at, but let's take for example the screen reader manufacturers for the other popular os. With the kinds of prices they charge, and given the large amount of sails they've most likely made over their product's lifetime, I would have thought they've recovered their rnd costs long, long ago, and then some. No, I think that what's driving prices of A.T. for the most part these days is pure and simple greed, not to mention that these companies' biggest customer is the U.S. government, and that it has deep pockets to boot, from the perspective of the companies. Greg On Sun, Jun 24, 2007 at 07:58:43PM +0100, Gaijin wrote: > I can understand that. We're such a small market that it's > necessary to charge so much to recoup the expense of making the stuff. > It's relativity. For every action, there's an equal and opposite > reaction, and someone is gonna starve. That's why I feel like Linux is > so special. People freely offer what we now have, without really > depriving little Cindy of what's on her dinner plate. Money doesn't > even enter the picture. > > Michael > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup - -- web site: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org gpg public key: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org/pubkey.asc skype: gregn1 (authorization required, add me to your contacts list first) - -- Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFGfzOL7s9z/XlyUyARAklZAJ9vS+K7Si62iGATtamZBl0DhtdXUwCeP17E UBhj3h0aoqYObOeRdjTYkIs= =nVqI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- _______________________________________________ Speakup mailing list Speakup@braille.uwo.ca http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* Re: Software speech opinions ` Glenn Ervin @ ` Doug Sutherland ` Glenn Ervin [not found] ` <20070626042409.GA25331@cm.nu> 1 sibling, 1 reply; 34+ messages in thread From: Doug Sutherland @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. I used to have resources for some R&D and did many things. One was to get a "special" keyboard designed for people with limited motor skills, to find out what was so special about it, and why it was so damn expesive. Granted it was more expensive than a normal keyboard, had proximity sensors and audible feedback, and somebody had to write some custom firmware, but at $450 for a keyboard that was an astounding sum. If you look beyond stuff like just software, to the whole assistive tech market in general, you see inflated prices that as I said, I consider to be obscene. Software can be free, yes, but that doesn't solve many other needs. Much work needs to be done and it can't all be free, or the advancement is limited. As long as assistive tech is considered to be something that is so radically different that the only answer is "there are grants for that" then choices are limited and some of the much needed R&D doesn't get done. I personally believe most people are missing something important, that some of these assistive tech ideas are ones that many people need. Take speech tech for example, people can't look at a computer screen while they are driving, and not really efficiently while walking. They do not need to be disabled in any way to benefit from speech and many other assistive technologies. Work on all of these things are more globally desireable than one would think if you break them down into parts. Take a keyboard for example, there should be multiple modalities available as the input to anything and the output from everything in the long term. I'm all for open source but then to expect everything to be free means, at least to some degree, you get what you pay for. People will pay for good tech, if it's fair priced. At least part of what is happening, the part I don't like, is that for some things, they are intentionally so expensive that nobody can afford them without some subsidy, grant, insurance, or some other bueroctratic process. More comptetition would actually drive prices down. More people making products would be a good thing. If all assistive tech was done for free then it would only ever be hobby activity, it will never put food on the table of people who produce it. -- Doug ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* Re: Software speech opinions ` Doug Sutherland @ ` Glenn Ervin ` Steve Holmes 0 siblings, 1 reply; 34+ messages in thread From: Glenn Ervin @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. The argument about competition bringing down the price does not wash with screen-readers for Windows. JFW & W E have both gone up in the past years, and continue to do so. I am waiting for a screen-reader like NVDA or Thunder to get nearly as functional as the above mentioned major screen-readers, and maybe then they will come down in price. But until they have to, they will keep milking us for all it's worth. Glenn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Sutherland" <doug@proficio.ca> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 11:42 PM Subject: Re: Software speech opinions I used to have resources for some R&D and did many things. One was to get a "special" keyboard designed for people with limited motor skills, to find out what was so special about it, and why it was so damn expesive. Granted it was more expensive than a normal keyboard, had proximity sensors and audible feedback, and somebody had to write some custom firmware, but at $450 for a keyboard that was an astounding sum. If you look beyond stuff like just software, to the whole assistive tech market in general, you see inflated prices that as I said, I consider to be obscene. Software can be free, yes, but that doesn't solve many other needs. Much work needs to be done and it can't all be free, or the advancement is limited. As long as assistive tech is considered to be something that is so radically different that the only answer is "there are grants for that" then choices are limited and some of the much needed R&D doesn't get done. I personally believe most people are missing something important, that some of these assistive tech ideas are ones that many people need. Take speech tech for example, people can't look at a computer screen while they are driving, and not really efficiently while walking. They do not need to be disabled in any way to benefit from speech and many other assistive technologies. Work on all of these things are more globally desireable than one would think if you break them down into parts. Take a keyboard for example, there should be multiple modalities available as the input to anything and the output from everything in the long term. I'm all for open source but then to expect everything to be free means, at least to some degree, you get what you pay for. People will pay for good tech, if it's fair priced. At least part of what is happening, the part I don't like, is that for some things, they are intentionally so expensive that nobody can afford them without some subsidy, grant, insurance, or some other bueroctratic process. More comptetition would actually drive prices down. More people making products would be a good thing. If all assistive tech was done for free then it would only ever be hobby activity, it will never put food on the table of people who produce it. -- Doug _______________________________________________ Speakup mailing list Speakup@braille.uwo.ca http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* Re: Software speech opinions ` Glenn Ervin @ ` Steve Holmes 0 siblings, 0 replies; 34+ messages in thread From: Steve Holmes @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Like others have said on the list here, it's one thing to make a profit but another to gouge with huge margins. I keep hearing "small markets" and all that. I like Doug Southerland's mention of diversifying the market; expanding it to those without disabilities. I remember when screen readers for DOS went down real low - something like $200 or so and now the windows versions are around $1,000. I really don't think inflation has gone up all that much. One good example of reasonable pricing is the Cepstral voices. You can buy a single voice for $29 and even Software DECtalk from Fonix sold for $50; I assume it still does? That's not too out of line. >From a philosophical standpoint, I prefer the open source / free software model - look at gnu/linux, but these other guys who don't have anything else to sell, they might need the closed software model. One point of greed from my point of view would be Access Solutions refusing to publicize the specs for their USB synths. Just think, they could publish the specs and as a result the units could be more easily used on more platforms. That means more sales in my book. You would think that would be a no-brainer for any company but so many companies are stupid about this. I mean look at Apple and the Ipod; they don't want anyone to be compatible with it! On Mon, Jun 25, 2007 at 11:31:42PM -0500, Glenn Ervin wrote: > The argument about competition bringing down the price does not wash with > screen-readers for Windows. > JFW & W E have both gone up in the past years, and continue to do so. > I am waiting for a screen-reader like NVDA or Thunder to get nearly as > functional as the above mentioned major screen-readers, and maybe then they > will come down in price. > But until they have to, they will keep milking us for all it's worth. > Glenn > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Doug Sutherland" <doug@proficio.ca> > To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 11:42 PM > Subject: Re: Software speech opinions > > > I used to have resources for some R&D and did many things. One was > to get a "special" keyboard designed for people with limited motor skills, > to find out what was so special about it, and why it was so damn > expesive. Granted it was more expensive than a normal keyboard, had > proximity sensors and audible feedback, and somebody had to write > some custom firmware, but at $450 for a keyboard that was an > astounding sum. If you look beyond stuff like just software, to the whole > assistive tech market in general, you see inflated prices that as I said, I > consider to be obscene. > > Software can be free, yes, but that doesn't solve many other needs. Much > work needs to be done and it can't all be free, or the advancement is > limited. As long as assistive tech is considered to be something that is so > radically different that the only answer is "there are grants for that" then > choices are limited and some of the much needed R&D doesn't get done. > I personally believe most people are missing something important, that > some of these assistive tech ideas are ones that many people need. Take > speech tech for example, people can't look at a computer screen while > they are driving, and not really efficiently while walking. They do not > need to be disabled in any way to benefit from speech and many other > assistive technologies. > > Work on all of these things are more globally desireable than one would > think if you break them down into parts. Take a keyboard for example, > there should be multiple modalities available as the input to anything and > the output from everything in the long term. I'm all for open source but > then to expect everything to be free means, at least to some degree, you > get what you pay for. People will pay for good tech, if it's fair priced. > At least part of what is happening, the part I don't like, is that for some > things, they are intentionally so expensive that nobody can afford them > without some subsidy, grant, insurance, or some other bueroctratic > process. More comptetition would actually drive prices down. More > people making products would be a good thing. If all assistive tech > was done for free then it would only ever be hobby activity, it will > never put food on the table of people who produce it. > > -- Doug > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup -- HolmesGrown Solutions The best solutions for the best price! http://holmesgrown.ld.net/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
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* Re: Software speech opinions [not found] ` <20070626042409.GA25331@cm.nu> @ ` Glenn Ervin ` John Heim ` Doug Sutherland ` John Heim 2 siblings, 1 reply; 34+ messages in thread From: Glenn Ervin @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. It is a free country, and in the name of good capitalism, people have the right to create anything legal and sell it. It is just a shame that the poorest group of individuals have to be kept down by having to pay 5 to 10 times for a product that the sighted have access to. We are an "easy target" for a developer out there, and they pat themselves on the back telling themselves that they have done such a good thing, by creating a product that allows us access, and indeed, they may not be making any more than if they had created a slightly popular product for the sighted, but they could contribute more to society by contributing in an open-source environment, and not try to see themselves as altruistic, or otherwise great slayers to the so called plight of the Blind. Glenn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shane" <shane-keyword-speakup.aca783@cm.nu> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 11:24 PM Subject: Re: Software speech opinions On Mon, Jun 25, 2007 at 10:15:58PM -0500, Glenn Ervin wrote: > I don't like to see profit made on the backs of the disabled. > I believe in capitalism, I would have to, as I have a Bachelor's degree in > Business management, but profit should be made on things like lawn mowers, > not on products which allow the disabled to use off-the-shelf products. > Indeed, greed is at play here, and I look forward to the future of > "Open-Source". I really don't have a problem paying for software I use be it to make otherwise usable software accessible or simply to get a job done. As far as I'm concerned, the makers of access tech can charge any amount they'd like. If it's too expensive, people will either not use it or more likely develope their own solutions which doesn't hurt opensource in the slightest. Not trying to justify closed source software at all as the key advantage of open source for me anyway isn't its free of charge nature but rather for the ability to modify it to suit my needs. For those who think prices are inflated by the greedy corporation, if that were the case and so much profit was being made in the area, why haven't other firms entered the market, driving prices down as a result? S _______________________________________________ Speakup mailing list Speakup@braille.uwo.ca http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* Re: Software speech opinions ` Glenn Ervin @ ` John Heim ` Albert E. Sten-Clanton 0 siblings, 1 reply; 34+ messages in thread From: John Heim @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. I would ask people spouting off in this thread to ask themselves what *they* have contributed. It seems to me that a lot of people are making suggestions for what other people should do or sell. Say the best thing to do is to move speakup into user space. How is that going to get done? I guess we're all going to volunteer Kirk to do it. Eh? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* Re: Software speech opinions ` John Heim @ ` Albert E. Sten-Clanton ` John Heim 0 siblings, 1 reply; 34+ messages in thread From: Albert E. Sten-Clanton @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. > I would ask people spouting off in this thread to ask themselves what *they* > have contributed. It seems to me that a lot of people are making suggestions > for what other people should do or sell. > > Say the best thing to do is to move speakup into user space. How is that > going to get done? I guess we're all going to volunteer Kirk to do it. Eh? You seem to be saying that the mere users should keep their traps shut. In real life, a good majority of the people who use computers will know little or nothing about how to fix the problems that arise. Do you really propose that these people, such as my wife, have no business complaining or suggesting because they're not ultranerds? As for myself, I do intend to learn enough to work on speakup and other code. I'm a programmer; that stuff grabs me; I hope to make a living at it again. but if I were to try to "contribute" at the moment, the worst code ever found in the kernel or in Speakup would look like utter beauty and perfection compared to what I'd write. You'd want me executed for pretending I could do anything useful! Yet, for me to learn what I need to, I need things to work well enough, just like the users I know who'd rather swallow thumbtacks than write programs. I can think of no reason I should refrain from making suggestions for improvement, if I treat people right when I do it. Nobody here said that he or she had appointed Kirk to do all the work folks want. Kirk would probably punch out anybody who tried to do that. Ignorant as I am, however, I think I can tell that a number of people on this list know enough to do the job, and maybe some of them will when they have the time. If so, I'd bet the suggestions put here will be of some help to them in deciding how best to use that time. If that doesn't happen, well, then those of us who can't do the job, for whatever reasons, will either endure the problems or look for a better system. Al ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* Re: Software speech opinions ` Albert E. Sten-Clanton @ ` John Heim ` Glenn Ervin ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 34+ messages in thread From: John Heim @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Albert E. Sten-Clanton" <albert.e.sten_clanton@verizon.net> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 12:03 PM Subject: Re: Software speech opinions >> I would ask people spouting off in this thread to ask themselves what >> *they* >> have contributed. It seems to me that a lot of people are making >> suggestions >> for what other people should do or sell. >> >> Say the best thing to do is to move speakup into user space. How is that >> going to get done? I guess we're all going to volunteer Kirk to do it. >> Eh? > > You seem to be saying that the mere users should keep their traps shut I never said anything of the sort. >. In real life, a good majority of the people who use computers will know >little or nothing about how to fix the problems that arise. Do you really >propose that these people, such as my wife, have no business complaining or >suggesting because they're not ultranerds? Well, sort of, yeah. Pointing out problems is one thing. Complaining is another. And telling other people what they should do to solve your problems is yet another thing entirely. But anyway, my main point was to suggest that people ask themselves what they've contributed to the open source community. Even if you're not a coder, you can write documentation, maintain a web site, etc. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* Re: Software speech opinions ` John Heim @ ` Glenn Ervin ` Scott Berry ` Albert E. Sten-Clanton 2 siblings, 0 replies; 34+ messages in thread From: Glenn Ervin @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. Or we can donate money, which does help the open-source movement. Glenn ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Heim" <jheim@math.wisc.edu> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 1:17 PM Subject: Re: Software speech opinions ----- Original Message ----- From: "Albert E. Sten-Clanton" <albert.e.sten_clanton@verizon.net> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 12:03 PM Subject: Re: Software speech opinions >> I would ask people spouting off in this thread to ask themselves what >> *they* >> have contributed. It seems to me that a lot of people are making >> suggestions >> for what other people should do or sell. >> >> Say the best thing to do is to move speakup into user space. How is that >> going to get done? I guess we're all going to volunteer Kirk to do it. >> Eh? > > You seem to be saying that the mere users should keep their traps shut I never said anything of the sort. >. In real life, a good majority of the people who use computers will know >little or nothing about how to fix the problems that arise. Do you really >propose that these people, such as my wife, have no business complaining or >suggesting because they're not ultranerds? Well, sort of, yeah. Pointing out problems is one thing. Complaining is another. And telling other people what they should do to solve your problems is yet another thing entirely. But anyway, my main point was to suggest that people ask themselves what they've contributed to the open source community. Even if you're not a coder, you can write documentation, maintain a web site, etc. _______________________________________________ Speakup mailing list Speakup@braille.uwo.ca http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* Re: Software speech opinions ` John Heim ` Glenn Ervin @ ` Scott Berry ` John Heim ` Albert E. Sten-Clanton 2 siblings, 1 reply; 34+ messages in thread From: Scott Berry @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. Right John, I agree but have to disagree too. I have started helping for the first time a site that I run software for my router off of. It is called www.xwrt.org they make a web interface for Wrt project which can be found at http://www.openwrt.org. But working for instance with a wiki is a bit of a trick. That seems to be about how 90% (percent) of the open source docs are kept. Now as for speakup, I do not use Speakup I do all admin chores remotely through a Windows computer which works fine for me. So as for Speakup I don't use it but like to keep current on it. I don't know how to program in Linux at all. I don't expect Kirk to do everything either but it is very good to voice. That might just be how the Speakup gets changed at some point. I myself would like to see Speakup in the kernel and user space we would have the best of both world. TTFN, Scott ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Heim" <jheim@math.wisc.edu> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 1:17 PM Subject: Re: Software speech opinions > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Albert E. Sten-Clanton" <albert.e.sten_clanton@verizon.net> > To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." > <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 12:03 PM > Subject: Re: Software speech opinions > > >>> I would ask people spouting off in this thread to ask themselves what >>> *they* >>> have contributed. It seems to me that a lot of people are making >>> suggestions >>> for what other people should do or sell. >>> >>> Say the best thing to do is to move speakup into user space. How is that >>> going to get done? I guess we're all going to volunteer Kirk to do it. >>> Eh? >> >> You seem to be saying that the mere users should keep their traps shut > > I never said anything of the sort. > >>. In real life, a good majority of the people who use computers will know >>little or nothing about how to fix the problems that arise. Do you really >>propose that these people, such as my wife, have no business complaining >>or >>suggesting because they're not ultranerds? > > Well, sort of, yeah. Pointing out problems is one thing. Complaining is > another. And telling other people what they should do to solve your > problems > is yet another thing entirely. > > But anyway, my main point was to suggest that people ask themselves what > they've contributed to the open source community. Even if you're not a > coder, you can write documentation, maintain a web site, etc. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.9/870 - Release Date: 6/26/2007 > 10:07 AM > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* Re: Software speech opinions ` Scott Berry @ ` John Heim ` Scott Berry 0 siblings, 1 reply; 34+ messages in thread From: John Heim @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. Well, I'm not sure of exactly what I said that you disagree with. Maybe you can clarify that? I think you're reading more into my comments then was actually there. From: "Scott Berry" <sberry@northlc.com> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 7:08 PM Subject: Re: Software speech opinions > Right John, > > I agree but have to disagree too. I have started helping for the first > time > a site that I run software for my router off of. It is called > www.xwrt.org > they make a web interface for Wrt project which can be found at > http://www.openwrt.org. But working for instance with a wiki is a bit of > a > trick. That seems to be about how 90% (percent) of the open source docs > are > kept. Now as for speakup, I do not use Speakup I do all admin chores > remotely through a Windows computer which works fine for me. So as for > Speakup I don't use it but like to keep current on it. I don't know how > to > program in Linux at all. I don't expect Kirk to do everything either but > it > is very good to voice. That might just be how the Speakup gets changed at > some point. I myself would like to see Speakup in the kernel and user > space > we would have the best of both world. > > TTFN, > > Scott > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Heim" <jheim@math.wisc.edu> > To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." > <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 1:17 PM > Subject: Re: Software speech opinions > > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Albert E. Sten-Clanton" <albert.e.sten_clanton@verizon.net> >> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." >> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> >> Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 12:03 PM >> Subject: Re: Software speech opinions >> >> >>>> I would ask people spouting off in this thread to ask themselves what >>>> *they* >>>> have contributed. It seems to me that a lot of people are making >>>> suggestions >>>> for what other people should do or sell. >>>> >>>> Say the best thing to do is to move speakup into user space. How is >>>> that >>>> going to get done? I guess we're all going to volunteer Kirk to do it. >>>> Eh? >>> >>> You seem to be saying that the mere users should keep their traps shut >> >> I never said anything of the sort. >> >>>. In real life, a good majority of the people who use computers will >>>know >>>little or nothing about how to fix the problems that arise. Do you >>>really >>>propose that these people, such as my wife, have no business complaining >>>or >>>suggesting because they're not ultranerds? >> >> Well, sort of, yeah. Pointing out problems is one thing. Complaining is >> another. And telling other people what they should do to solve your >> problems >> is yet another thing entirely. >> >> But anyway, my main point was to suggest that people ask themselves what >> they've contributed to the open source community. Even if you're not a >> coder, you can write documentation, maintain a web site, etc. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Speakup mailing list >> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca >> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup >> >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.9/870 - Release Date: 6/26/2007 >> 10:07 AM >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* Re: Software speech opinions ` John Heim @ ` Scott Berry 0 siblings, 0 replies; 34+ messages in thread From: Scott Berry @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. That's very possible John. I apologize for doing this. Scott ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Heim" <jheim@math.wisc.edu> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 12:22 PM Subject: Re: Software speech opinions > Well, I'm not sure of exactly what I said that you disagree with. Maybe > you > can clarify that? I think you're reading more into my comments then was > actually there. > > > From: "Scott Berry" <sberry@northlc.com> > To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." > <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 7:08 PM > Subject: Re: Software speech opinions > > >> Right John, >> >> I agree but have to disagree too. I have started helping for the first >> time >> a site that I run software for my router off of. It is called >> www.xwrt.org >> they make a web interface for Wrt project which can be found at >> http://www.openwrt.org. But working for instance with a wiki is a bit of >> a >> trick. That seems to be about how 90% (percent) of the open source docs >> are >> kept. Now as for speakup, I do not use Speakup I do all admin chores >> remotely through a Windows computer which works fine for me. So as for >> Speakup I don't use it but like to keep current on it. I don't know how >> to >> program in Linux at all. I don't expect Kirk to do everything either but >> it >> is very good to voice. That might just be how the Speakup gets changed >> at >> some point. I myself would like to see Speakup in the kernel and user >> space >> we would have the best of both world. >> >> TTFN, >> >> Scott >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "John Heim" <jheim@math.wisc.edu> >> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." >> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> >> Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 1:17 PM >> Subject: Re: Software speech opinions >> >> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Albert E. Sten-Clanton" <albert.e.sten_clanton@verizon.net> >>> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." >>> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 12:03 PM >>> Subject: Re: Software speech opinions >>> >>> >>>>> I would ask people spouting off in this thread to ask themselves what >>>>> *they* >>>>> have contributed. It seems to me that a lot of people are making >>>>> suggestions >>>>> for what other people should do or sell. >>>>> >>>>> Say the best thing to do is to move speakup into user space. How is >>>>> that >>>>> going to get done? I guess we're all going to volunteer Kirk to do it. >>>>> Eh? >>>> >>>> You seem to be saying that the mere users should keep their traps shut >>> >>> I never said anything of the sort. >>> >>>>. In real life, a good majority of the people who use computers will >>>>know >>>>little or nothing about how to fix the problems that arise. Do you >>>>really >>>>propose that these people, such as my wife, have no business complaining >>>>or >>>>suggesting because they're not ultranerds? >>> >>> Well, sort of, yeah. Pointing out problems is one thing. Complaining is >>> another. And telling other people what they should do to solve your >>> problems >>> is yet another thing entirely. >>> >>> But anyway, my main point was to suggest that people ask themselves what >>> they've contributed to the open source community. Even if you're not a >>> coder, you can write documentation, maintain a web site, etc. >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Speakup mailing list >>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca >>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >>> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.9/870 - Release Date: 6/26/2007 >>> 10:07 AM >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Speakup mailing list >> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca >> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.9/870 - Release Date: 6/26/2007 > 10:07 AM > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* Re: Software speech opinions ` John Heim ` Glenn Ervin ` Scott Berry @ ` Albert E. Sten-Clanton 2 siblings, 0 replies; 34+ messages in thread From: Albert E. Sten-Clanton @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. > >. In real life, a good majority of the people who use computers will know > >little or nothing about how to fix the problems that arise. Do you really > >propose that these people, such as my wife, have no business complaining or > >suggesting because they're not ultranerds? > > Well, sort of, yeah. Pointing out problems is one thing. Complaining is > another. And telling other people what they should do to solve your problems > is yet another thing entirely. > I know there are good and bad ways of "pointing out problems," which is why I mentioned treating people right when you do it. I hope I generally do. As for "telling other people what they should do to solve your problems," that's about what I'd expect of any constructive user of any product to do if he or she didn't create the product--for that matter, whether it's "free" or not. To me, the question is not whether you should do it, but how. > But anyway, my main point was to suggest that people ask themselves what > they've contributed to the open source community. Even if you're not a > coder, you can write documentation, maintain a web site, etc. > This is certainly a fair point. I'd add only that you can't be expected to contribute in those ways until you know what you're doing. I've learned the hard way that bad documentation sometimes is worse than none at all, for example. In any event, my impression is that those who made suggestions or complaints on the relevant topics here are already givers as well as takers. Somebody else suggested giving money to the free software movement. That also seems a good idea, though I don't know to whom I'd donate for the purpose of, say, getting Speakup or similar non-visual access into the vanilla kernel as a standard feature (assuming it can be done). Al ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* Re: Software speech opinions [not found] ` <20070626042409.GA25331@cm.nu> ` Glenn Ervin @ ` Doug Sutherland ` Doug Sutherland ` John Heim ` John Heim 2 siblings, 2 replies; 34+ messages in thread From: Doug Sutherland @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. I made no mention of corporations, they go for where the huge bucks are, but what I was saying is that there may be a more indirect relation, to things like insurance. In any event, there is something seriously wrong with the assistive tech market as a whole. I used to have a huge collection of links to assistive tech of all kinds. Check out some of these prices as just one example. https://www.assistivetech.com/cgi/shopper.cgi A six foot wheelchair joystick cable is $109. A lightwriter with dectalk voices is $4425. Something is not right. -- Doug ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* Re: Software speech opinions ` Doug Sutherland @ ` Doug Sutherland ` Glenn Ervin ` John Heim 1 sibling, 1 reply; 34+ messages in thread From: Doug Sutherland @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. "Mercury SGD is our dedicated communication device, approved by Medicare and other insurance programs as a speech-generating device." http://www.assistivetech.com/p-mercury.htm Approved by medicare for over $7000. This is what I mean. If you look at the big picture, there is more going on than what you observe in prices and such. Such prices would not be even thinkable without the fact that it's "covered" which means some people will have them, most will not, and if the market really was free then the prices would be dramatically lower. -- Doug ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* Re: Software speech opinions ` Doug Sutherland @ ` Glenn Ervin 0 siblings, 0 replies; 34+ messages in thread From: Glenn Ervin @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. Well, I have decided, in the past year, to do my best to market open-source products to my clients, rather than the expensive screen-readers. Only when the open-source does not do the job, will I promote the expensive screen-readers. Glenn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Sutherland" <doug@proficio.ca> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 12:44 AM Subject: Re: Software speech opinions "Mercury SGD is our dedicated communication device, approved by Medicare and other insurance programs as a speech-generating device." http://www.assistivetech.com/p-mercury.htm Approved by medicare for over $7000. This is what I mean. If you look at the big picture, there is more going on than what you observe in prices and such. Such prices would not be even thinkable without the fact that it's "covered" which means some people will have them, most will not, and if the market really was free then the prices would be dramatically lower. -- Doug _______________________________________________ Speakup mailing list Speakup@braille.uwo.ca http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* Re: Software speech opinions ` Doug Sutherland ` Doug Sutherland @ ` John Heim ` Butch Bussen 1 sibling, 1 reply; 34+ messages in thread From: John Heim @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Sutherland" <doug@proficio.ca> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 12:37 AM Subject: Re: Software speech opinions >I made no mention of corporations, they go for where the huge > bucks are, but what I was saying is that there may be a more > indirect relation, to things like insurance. In any event, there is > something seriously wrong with the assistive tech market as a > whole. I used to have a huge collection of links to assistive > tech of all kinds. Check out some of these prices as just one > example. > > https://www.assistivetech.com/cgi/shopper.cgi > > A six foot wheelchair joystick cable is $109. A lightwriter > with dectalk voices is $4425. Something is not right. I was looking into the cost of braille displays a few weeks ago and was shocked at the prices. But what makes you think these prices are out of line? I mean, maybe it just costs that much per unit because of the low volume. If you figure in R&D costs, support costs, and manufacturing costs, maybe it just costs that much. If not, then why doesn't somebody put out a $1000 braille display and wipe out the competition? Admittedly, I can see a point on the other side too. We all believe in capitalism but corporations exist in the real world too. There is an ethical contradiction in our society where corporations get legal status as a person but nobody expects them to act morrally. In fact, in some circles, if you say corporations should behave as if they have a concience, you're passed off as a crazy liberal. We don't praise a human being for devoting all of his time and all of his energy toward making money. But the mere suggestion that a corporation might devote some of it's resources toward something other than making money is considered crazy. But if a corporation is going to be given the right to free speech, for example, then why is it unfair to expect it to have a concience as well? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* Re: Software speech opinions ` John Heim @ ` Butch Bussen 0 siblings, 0 replies; 34+ messages in thread From: Butch Bussen @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. Well, it isn't just the disabled market. Take a look at microsoft. Back in 95 I bought windows 95 for $88.00. A computer then cost around $2000.00 Today you can buy a fair system for around $600.00 and The last I looked, Vist will cost you two or three hundred, and they sell millions of copies. 73s Butch Bussen wa0vjr ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
* Re: Software speech opinions [not found] ` <20070626042409.GA25331@cm.nu> ` Glenn Ervin ` Doug Sutherland @ ` John Heim 2 siblings, 0 replies; 34+ messages in thread From: John Heim @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. From: "Shane" <shane-keyword-speakup.aca783@cm.nu> > For those who think prices are inflated by the greedy > corporation, if that were the case and so much profit was > being made in the area, why haven't other firms entered the > market, driving prices down as a result? This is a good point. Mostly, stuff costs what it costs. But there is a thread going on on the jaws list right now about Freedom Scientific becoming arrogant because jaws is "institutionalized". Once you've purchased jaws, it is very difficult to move to a competitor because it requires another huge outlay of cash and time. For years, I have been wanting to switch to Window-Eyes when I'm working with Windows. But I haven't even asked the University to buy Window-eyes because I know it would be opening a can of worms. The University bought Jaws originally on my recommendation. But now it's on the lab machines and I can't ask them to switch to something else. Also, I would have to learn how to use Window-eyes and at least for a while, I'd be less productive. I'd have to provide justification for that as well. My current plan is to switch to either orca or VoiceOver as soon as either one of those tools is ready for prime time. I'll either buy a Mac for home or set up a PC with orca at home and learn the new screen reader that way. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 34+ messages in thread
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