FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Dawes, Stephen]

Hi all,
Although this is a little off topic, I felt that it kind of fit in with the latest talk about Free Programming Books. The down side to this article however, is that the people behind it are trying to make a buck. They are not offering the service for free as was the case with Napster where they got the idea from. 
Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with making a buck. (That is a US$) 


Steve Dawes
PH:  (403) 268-5527. 
Mailto:  sdawes@gov.calgary.ab.ca 

-----Original Message-----
From: Manning Ralph [mailto:ralph.manning@NLC-BNC.CA]
Sent: March 11, 2002 1:59 PM
To: ACCESSINFO-L@INFOSERV.NLC-BNC.CA
Subject: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a
page from Napster


> FYI: From HoustonChronicle.com -- http://www.HoustonChronicle.com |
> Section: Technology News
>
> March 3, 2002, 9:19PM
>
> Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster
>
> Associated Press
> http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/printstory.hts/tech/news/1279925
>
>
> SAN FRANCISCO -- Bookshare.org is borrowing a page from Napster, but
> hoping for a happier ending.
>
> Much like the ill-fated music-sharing service, Bookshare lets computer
> users share copyrighted material -- in this case, books -- over the
> Internet.
>
> Empowered with a special exemption from copyright law, Bookshare hopes to
> avoid the bitter legal fight that bogged down Napster and prove Napster's
> subversive technology can be applied for social good.
>
> Bookshare, based in Palo Alto, is building an online library of books
> scanned into audio and Braille formats for the exclusive use of the blind
> and people with reading problems such as dyslexia.
>
> The target audience, about 5 million people nationwide, qualifies
> Bookshare for a copyright exemption created in 1996 to encourage greater
> distribution of literature to the blind and reading-impaired.
>
> With a $1.3 million investment from a nonprofit technology organization,
> Benetech, Bookshare hopes to break even by next year. To do so, it will
> need at least 10,000 subscribers willing to pay a $25 setup fee and a $50
> annual subscription to download as many books as they want.
>
> "Great technology that helps people but doesn't make a lot of money
> usually never gets done," said James R. Fruchterman, Benetech's chief
> executive. "We are on a mission to make sure socially cool applications
> happen."
>
> If not for Napster, Bookshare probably never would have been created.
> Fruchterman got the idea in 2000, shortly after his son joined millions of
> teen-agers hooked on the music-sharing service.
>
> Bookshare, launched Feb. 21, is starting out with 8,000 titles from an
> eclectic mix of authors ranging from Shakespeare to William Shatner.
>
> Fruchterman believes the library easily can expand to 40,000 digital books
> within the next two years by tapping into the collections stored on the
> computers of its users.
>
> With just 5 percent of all books available on audio, many people feed
> paperbacks page by page into a special scanner to create audio files. It's
> tedious work requiring about three hours per book.
>
> "Scanning books is kind of like watching paint dry," said Rich Ring, a
> Portland, Ore., computer instructor who is blind. "If you are going to do
> it, why not share the work with everyone? That's what makes Bookshare a
> wonderful way to give back to the community."
>
> One blind man who scanned a book almost every day for the past 10 years
> already has given more than 3,000 titles to Bookshare, Fruchterman said.
>
> Despite its special exemption, Bookshare faced some resistance from book
> publishers worried about an invasion from readers who aren't blind or
> disabled.
>
> "About 20 percent of the publishers were scared to death of us,"
> Fruchterman said. Bookshare didn't reassure publishers with its original
> name -- "Bookster."
>
> Bookshare eased industry concerns by keeping all its files on a central,
> secure server. In contrast, Napster and other music-sharing systems
> provided a springboard for users to leap from one hard drive to another in
> search of copyright songs to download for free.
>
> About 3,000 of the titles on Bookshare's site can be downloaded by anyone
> because the copyrights on the works have expired. For the remainder,
> subscribers must prove they are blind or have a reading disability.
>
> Despite the controls, publishers will be watching closely.
>
> "Technology advances at a pace far faster than any of us can imagine, so
> one of the things we are concerned about is what might happen in the
> future," said Allan Adler, a vice president at the Association of American
> Publishers, the industry's main trade group.
>
> Bookshare's format seems unlikely to appeal to people accustomed to
> listening to taped books read by professional narrators. Using special
> computer equipment, books will come through in an automated electronic
> voice.
>
> "If you are not accustomed to sitting in front of a computer listening to
> a synthetic voice read to you, this isn't going to be a very attractive
> option," Ring said.
>
> Those who prefer tactile reading can use specialized printers or
> electronic displays to "read" braille. But such equipment is expensive. So
> only about 10 percent of Bookshare's users are expected to use braille,
> said Fruchterman. The rest will listen to audio.
>
> Other companies, such as Audible Inc. and Books on Tape Inc., sell more
> polished audio versions of books online.
>
> With 20,000 titles from books, magazines and newspapers, Audible offers
> monthly subscriptions starting at $12.95 per month, while Books on Tape
> sells audio tapes at discount prices.
>
> Bookshare signed up 60 subscribers in its first week.
>
> Blind people who participated in a three-month test are confident the
> service will succeed.
>
> "It's an idea that I had been wishing someone would develop," said John
> Panarese, a test user in New York. "But I thought it was going to be
> impossible after all the flak Napster got."

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Janina Sajka]

Wait a minute here. This isn't quite fair ...

1.)	Yes, Book Share costs a subscription fee. But, recognize this isn't 
going 
into pockets. Benetech is a registered nonprofit, so the fees go toward 
maintaining the service. Somebody has to do that. Also, I would be very 
surprised if they won't wave it if someone pleads hardship. Heck, you can 
earn the fee by simply posting content to Book Share.

2.) Book Share is looking for a linux savvy programmer to write a program
that will unpack books downloaded from Book Share on the linux platform.
They will supply documentation and their existing code for Windows to help
this along. Given our recent programming discussion here, there should be
several folks on this list qualified to do this.


 On Tue, 12 Mar 2002, Dawes, Stephen wrote:

> Hi all,
> Although this is a little off topic, I felt that it kind of fit in with the latest talk about Free Programming Books. The down side to this article however, is that the people behind it are trying to make a buck. They are not offering the service for free as was the case with Napster where they got the idea from. 
> Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with making a buck. (That is a US$) 
> 
> 
> Steve Dawes
> PH:  (403) 268-5527. 
> Mailto:  sdawes@gov.calgary.ab.ca 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Manning Ralph [mailto:ralph.manning@NLC-BNC.CA]
> Sent: March 11, 2002 1:59 PM
> To: ACCESSINFO-L@INFOSERV.NLC-BNC.CA
> Subject: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a
> page from Napster
> 
> 
> > FYI: From HoustonChronicle.com -- http://www.HoustonChronicle.com |
> > Section: Technology News
> >
> > March 3, 2002, 9:19PM
> >
> > Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster
> >
> > Associated Press
> > http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/printstory.hts/tech/news/1279925
> >
> >
> > SAN FRANCISCO -- Bookshare.org is borrowing a page from Napster, but
> > hoping for a happier ending.
> >
> > Much like the ill-fated music-sharing service, Bookshare lets computer
> > users share copyrighted material -- in this case, books -- over the
> > Internet.
> >
> > Empowered with a special exemption from copyright law, Bookshare hopes to
> > avoid the bitter legal fight that bogged down Napster and prove Napster's
> > subversive technology can be applied for social good.
> >
> > Bookshare, based in Palo Alto, is building an online library of books
> > scanned into audio and Braille formats for the exclusive use of the blind
> > and people with reading problems such as dyslexia.
> >
> > The target audience, about 5 million people nationwide, qualifies
> > Bookshare for a copyright exemption created in 1996 to encourage greater
> > distribution of literature to the blind and reading-impaired.
> >
> > With a $1.3 million investment from a nonprofit technology organization,
> > Benetech, Bookshare hopes to break even by next year. To do so, it will
> > need at least 10,000 subscribers willing to pay a $25 setup fee and a $50
> > annual subscription to download as many books as they want.
> >
> > "Great technology that helps people but doesn't make a lot of money
> > usually never gets done," said James R. Fruchterman, Benetech's chief
> > executive. "We are on a mission to make sure socially cool applications
> > happen."
> >
> > If not for Napster, Bookshare probably never would have been created.
> > Fruchterman got the idea in 2000, shortly after his son joined millions of
> > teen-agers hooked on the music-sharing service.
> >
> > Bookshare, launched Feb. 21, is starting out with 8,000 titles from an
> > eclectic mix of authors ranging from Shakespeare to William Shatner.
> >
> > Fruchterman believes the library easily can expand to 40,000 digital books
> > within the next two years by tapping into the collections stored on the
> > computers of its users.
> >
> > With just 5 percent of all books available on audio, many people feed
> > paperbacks page by page into a special scanner to create audio files. It's
> > tedious work requiring about three hours per book.
> >
> > "Scanning books is kind of like watching paint dry," said Rich Ring, a
> > Portland, Ore., computer instructor who is blind. "If you are going to do
> > it, why not share the work with everyone? That's what makes Bookshare a
> > wonderful way to give back to the community."
> >
> > One blind man who scanned a book almost every day for the past 10 years
> > already has given more than 3,000 titles to Bookshare, Fruchterman said.
> >
> > Despite its special exemption, Bookshare faced some resistance from book
> > publishers worried about an invasion from readers who aren't blind or
> > disabled.
> >
> > "About 20 percent of the publishers were scared to death of us,"
> > Fruchterman said. Bookshare didn't reassure publishers with its original
> > name -- "Bookster."
> >
> > Bookshare eased industry concerns by keeping all its files on a central,
> > secure server. In contrast, Napster and other music-sharing systems
> > provided a springboard for users to leap from one hard drive to another in
> > search of copyright songs to download for free.
> >
> > About 3,000 of the titles on Bookshare's site can be downloaded by anyone
> > because the copyrights on the works have expired. For the remainder,
> > subscribers must prove they are blind or have a reading disability.
> >
> > Despite the controls, publishers will be watching closely.
> >
> > "Technology advances at a pace far faster than any of us can imagine, so
> > one of the things we are concerned about is what might happen in the
> > future," said Allan Adler, a vice president at the Association of American
> > Publishers, the industry's main trade group.
> >
> > Bookshare's format seems unlikely to appeal to people accustomed to
> > listening to taped books read by professional narrators. Using special
> > computer equipment, books will come through in an automated electronic
> > voice.
> >
> > "If you are not accustomed to sitting in front of a computer listening to
> > a synthetic voice read to you, this isn't going to be a very attractive
> > option," Ring said.
> >
> > Those who prefer tactile reading can use specialized printers or
> > electronic displays to "read" braille. But such equipment is expensive. So
> > only about 10 percent of Bookshare's users are expected to use braille,
> > said Fruchterman. The rest will listen to audio.
> >
> > Other companies, such as Audible Inc. and Books on Tape Inc., sell more
> > polished audio versions of books online.
> >
> > With 20,000 titles from books, magazines and newspapers, Audible offers
> > monthly subscriptions starting at $12.95 per month, while Books on Tape
> > sells audio tapes at discount prices.
> >
> > Bookshare signed up 60 subscribers in its first week.
> >
> > Blind people who participated in a three-month test are confident the
> > service will succeed.
> >
> > "It's an idea that I had been wishing someone would develop," said John
> > Panarese, a test user in New York. "But I thought it was going to be
> > impossible after all the flak Napster got."
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Ann Parsons]

Hi Jannina,

They are?  When?  Great!  Are they going to make the web site
accessible finally!!!?  

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Janina Sajka]

Hey, Ann:

Are you having problems with:

	http://www.bookshare.org?

Or, is it the benetech site, which I don't recall off-hand?

Here's the lynx display about www.bookshare.org:


   Linkname: Bookshare.org
        URL: http://www.bookshare.org/web/Welcome.html
    Charset: iso-8859-1 (assumed)
     Server: Apache/1.3.23 (Unix) PHP/4.0.6 mod_ssl/2.8.6 OpenSSL/0.9.6a
       Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 19:53:35 GMT

So, if there's something there that isn't working, please let me know. I'm 
meeting with them next week at CSUN. I'm on the Advisory Board for 
BookShare.
 On Tue, 12 Mar 2002, Ann Parsons wrote:

> Hi Jannina,
> 
> They are?  When?  Great!  Are they going to make the web site
> accessible finally!!!?  
> 
> Ann P.
> 
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Ann Parsons]

Hi Janina,

Well, I found that it was virtually impossible to get at the site
during the beta.  I found that the application was only a long, long,
long, long, long agreement with several check boxes, but there was no
place to add an address, a name of anything else!  I haven't been back
there because it says on the top of the page that "this site is for
users of MSIE5.5 or above."  I just didn't bother.  I figured that
there was nothing I could do.  My Windows computer has been down for
two months, and I want so much to download books and to join, but what
can I do?  I have some books here I've scanned that I might
conceivably want to upload there, but nobody deigned to say anything
to me.  I'm on the beta list.  Nobody bothered to talk to me at all,
find out *why* I was unhappy with the site, or what I was
experiencing.  In fact, they just about ignored me cuz I use Linux.
It was made very, very, very, very, very, very clear that I was just
chopped liver and so I haven't bothered to even try to access the site
in Lynx.  I figured that it would be virtually impossible, so I've
been waiting for my Windows machine to get fixed, and now I discover I
have to wait more time!

Janina, I hate Windows, but I want to join Bookshare`!  I want to
download books!  It won't do me any good to go there anyway in Lynx
cuz the unpack tool is for Windows, or didn't you realize that?  Sure
they're looking for somebody to write their program for Linux because
they've finally awakened to the fact that maybe somebody ought to pay
attention to another OS.  But what's the good of writing an unpack
tool for Linux when the site is "only for MSIE5.5 or above"?  I mean
if you're going to be *that* exclusive, what's the good, Janina?  What
about people who only have MSIE4 or Netscape or PW-Webspeak or IBM web
reader?  What about those peopoe, huh?  Do they know how snooty and
exclusive that phrase sounds?  Do they realize how it looks?  Haven't
we had enough of being shut out?  

If my Windows machine isn't up yet, and if I only have Linux, then
downloading an unpack tool for Windows isn't going to do me a hoot in
Hell.  Maybe that's why everybody has been ignoring me, eh?  I'm
sorry, Janina, but you asked me, and I'm telling you.  I feel shut
out, ignored, and thrown away.  The site is for "MSIE5.5 or later", it
says so right on the page, damn it!!!  It's supposed to be for the
blind.  It's supposed to be so that we can access books!  It's
supposed to be a tool to help us, and it's just another fanthom,
supposedly accessible but only if you have the right equipment.
<sigh>  What about people who use W3, what about them?  What about
people who have shell accounts, there are some, you know.  They're
limited to Lynx.  I'm sorry, Janina, but I'm disgusted and feeling
angry and really quite upset.  I didn't realize how upset I was till
you asked me how I was doing.

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Janina Sajka]

Well, Ann, I think the long long long application form is still there, but 
the MSIE message is gone gone gone, as best I can tell.

Also, they've stopped asking for Doctor's verification of disability. 
While their Chafee Amendment copyright exemption requires them to get some 
kind of disability authentication, they've wisely arranged with NLS to 
provide this service. So, if you're registered with NLS, that will serve 
at BookShare.


On Tue, 12 Mar 2002, Ann Parsons wrote:

> Hi Janina,
> 
> Well, I found that it was virtually impossible to get at the site
> during the beta.  I found that the application was only a long, long,
> long, long, long agreement with several check boxes, but there was no
> place to add an address, a name of anything else!  I haven't been back
> there because it says on the top of the page that "this site is for
> users of MSIE5.5 or above."  I just didn't bother.  I figured that
> there was nothing I could do.  My Windows computer has been down for
> two months, and I want so much to download books and to join, but what
> can I do?  I have some books here I've scanned that I might
> conceivably want to upload there, but nobody deigned to say anything
> to me.  I'm on the beta list.  Nobody bothered to talk to me at all,
> find out *why* I was unhappy with the site, or what I was
> experiencing.  In fact, they just about ignored me cuz I use Linux.
> It was made very, very, very, very, very, very clear that I was just
> chopped liver and so I haven't bothered to even try to access the site
> in Lynx.  I figured that it would be virtually impossible, so I've
> been waiting for my Windows machine to get fixed, and now I discover I
> have to wait more time!
> 
> Janina, I hate Windows, but I want to join Bookshare`!  I want to
> download books!  It won't do me any good to go there anyway in Lynx
> cuz the unpack tool is for Windows, or didn't you realize that?  Sure
> they're looking for somebody to write their program for Linux because
> they've finally awakened to the fact that maybe somebody ought to pay
> attention to another OS.  But what's the good of writing an unpack
> tool for Linux when the site is "only for MSIE5.5 or above"?  I mean
> if you're going to be *that* exclusive, what's the good, Janina?  What
> about people who only have MSIE4 or Netscape or PW-Webspeak or IBM web
> reader?  What about those peopoe, huh?  Do they know how snooty and
> exclusive that phrase sounds?  Do they realize how it looks?  Haven't
> we had enough of being shut out?  
> 
> If my Windows machine isn't up yet, and if I only have Linux, then
> downloading an unpack tool for Windows isn't going to do me a hoot in
> Hell.  Maybe that's why everybody has been ignoring me, eh?  I'm
> sorry, Janina, but you asked me, and I'm telling you.  I feel shut
> out, ignored, and thrown away.  The site is for "MSIE5.5 or later", it
> says so right on the page, damn it!!!  It's supposed to be for the
> blind.  It's supposed to be so that we can access books!  It's
> supposed to be a tool to help us, and it's just another fanthom,
> supposedly accessible but only if you have the right equipment.
> <sigh>  What about people who use W3, what about them?  What about
> people who have shell accounts, there are some, you know.  They're
> limited to Lynx.  I'm sorry, Janina, but I'm disgusted and feeling
> angry and really quite upset.  I didn't realize how upset I was till
> you asked me how I was doing.
> 
> Ann P.
> 
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Ann Parsons]

Hi Janina,

<smile>  OK, but that doesn't answer my questions, Janina.  Here they
are again.

1.  Where do you enter your name and so on on the application?  All I
    saw was the long agreement form.  That should have come *after*
    you added your name and so on.  I never saw any place to add
    personal data.

2.  I'm glad about the verification process, and I can certainly
    provide that info, no problem, but if the site only works for
    MSIE5.5 will the search boxes work?  Will anything work at all?
    See, that's what's so misleading.  If the statement "this site is
    for MSIE5.5 or later" is gone, then does that mean the site is now
    accessible?  I haven't seen anything on the beta lists about work
    in Linux or talk of Linux or anything.  I got the impression that
    the subject was werboten.   It's nice to know that somebody is
    doing something, but I thought the whole idea of the beta list for
    the site was to let people *know* what was going on.  I told Peter
    that I'd be happy to help and that I was willing to test in Lynx.
    When I wrote that I found the site to be inaccessible with Lynx, I
    got no response at all, nothing!  Now maybe there was something I
    was doing wrong, but if that was the case, then they should have
    treated me with the same patience and understanding and courtesy
    that the Windows users got, frankly!!

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Janina Sajka]

Well, what can I tell you? I filled out their form using lynx on linux
with speakup. I found it not the best designed form because it was very
chatty and not as clearly written as it might be, but I was able to do it.

 On Tue, 12 Mar 2002, Ann Parsons wrote:

> Hi Janina,
> 
> <smile>  OK, but that doesn't answer my questions, Janina.  Here they
> are again.
> 
> 1.  Where do you enter your name and so on on the application?  All I
>     saw was the long agreement form.  That should have come *after*
>     you added your name and so on.  I never saw any place to add
>     personal data.
> 
> 2.  I'm glad about the verification process, and I can certainly
>     provide that info, no problem, but if the site only works for
>     MSIE5.5 will the search boxes work?  Will anything work at all?
>     See, that's what's so misleading.  If the statement "this site is
>     for MSIE5.5 or later" is gone, then does that mean the site is now
>     accessible?  I haven't seen anything on the beta lists about work
>     in Linux or talk of Linux or anything.  I got the impression that
>     the subject was werboten.   It's nice to know that somebody is
>     doing something, but I thought the whole idea of the beta list for
>     the site was to let people *know* what was going on.  I told Peter
>     that I'd be happy to help and that I was willing to test in Lynx.
>     When I wrote that I found the site to be inaccessible with Lynx, I
>     got no response at all, nothing!  Now maybe there was something I
>     was doing wrong, but if that was the case, then they should have
>     treated me with the same patience and understanding and courtesy
>     that the Windows users got, frankly!!
> 
> Ann P.
> 
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Ann Parsons]

Hi Janina,

I wrote you privately on this, but maybe someone can help?  I got an
error msg saying that my browser didn't support Shttp.  Do I need to
upgrade Lynx or something?  Please advise.

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Janina Sajka]

Yes, yes, I just got your message--probably you were writing yours as I 
was writing mine! <grin>

This shouldn't be a problem, and if it is, I can promise they'll fix it -- 
or else! <grin>

Meanwhile, let me go check myself ...


On Tue, 12 Mar 2002, Ann Parsons wrote:

> Hi Janina,
> 
> I wrote you privately on this, but maybe someone can help?  I got an
> error msg saying that my browser didn't support Shttp.  Do I need to
> upgrade Lynx or something?  Please advise.
> 
> Ann P.
> 
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Ann Parsons]

Hi Janina,

I got the upgrade and all is well.  But I do have some suggestions.
Sheesh, if they'd only said something weeks ago!!  

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Janina Sajka]

Yep. This should degrade gracefully, as they say. They sure can tell your 
browser isn't doing https, and they can even tell what browser you're 
using. This should result in gentler pages with some options.  

Want to help me make a list of needed improvements? I meet with them next 
week in L.A.
 On Tue, 12 
Mar 2002, Ann Parsons wrote:

> Hi Janina,
> 
> I got the upgrade and all is well.  But I do have some suggestions.
> Sheesh, if they'd only said something weeks ago!!  
> 
> Ann P.
> 
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Ann Parsons]

Hi Janina,

Sure, send me private mail, tell me what you have already.

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Steve Holmes]

The last time I looked on their site I was kinda luce warm about it as I
felt $75 a year and not being really sure if any of the existing titles
would interest me or not.  However, if I do go for it, I would definitely
push for the compression/decompression tools to be available in linux.  In
fact, it should not be proprietary either.  It ot be GNU based or
something.  I guess my GNU religion is showing:).

On Wed, 13 Mar 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:

> Yep. This should degrade gracefully, as they say. They sure can tell your
> browser isn't doing https, and they can even tell what browser you're
> using. This should result in gentler pages with some options.
>
> Want to help me make a list of needed improvements? I meet with them next
> week in L.A.
>  On Tue, 12
> Mar 2002, Ann Parsons wrote:
>
> > Hi Janina,
> >
> > I got the upgrade and all is well.  But I do have some suggestions.
> > Sheesh, if they'd only said something weeks ago!!
> >
> > Ann P.
> >
> >
>
>

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

Steve, it's $50 per year, the $25 is a one-time set-up fee.  Just so
we have the info straight.

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Amanda Lee]

Actually, the cost is $50 per year.  First year there is a $25 setup fee.
But as stated, if you contribute by submitting books that you scan,
correct errors and do what they call Publish to submit books already
uploaded and/or do what is known as Basic Publish whereby you clean-up
their database to reflect appropriate information about the entried
therein, you earn fifty cents per title.  To download and correct a book,
you earn $2.50.  Do ten of those per year, you earn half of your annual
membership.

So, there are ways that a person with limited income resources can benefit
and still use the service.

Amanda Lee

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Georgina]

Hi

Please see my message on the cost of producing these books.  To say that 
someone with low income can recooperate some or all of their costs is got to 
be missleading.

As you already know my feelings on the cost of K1000 there's no need for me 
to go into that but if someone can't afford a scanner and K1000 or even Open 
Book Ruby, how are they going to recooperate some or all of the cost?

Surely, corretcing is out of the question too?  Firstly, they'd have to go 
and buy the book and then be able to compare words and other symbols on the 
screen with that on the printed pages of the book.

Furthermore, that's if they can afford to use Windows to use the above ocr 
packages.  I understood that the image files were also required, thus only 
Windows users might and I say might be the only ones to be able to submit 
scanned material.  What is the required format?

It'll be very interesting to see how many people will be in a position to 
submit material to the project.

Gena



>Actually, the cost is $50 per year.  First year there is a $25 setup fee.
>But as stated, if you contribute by submitting books that you scan,
>correct errors and do what they call Publish to submit books already
>uploaded and/or do what is known as Basic Publish whereby you clean-up
>their database to reflect appropriate information about the entried
>therein, you earn fifty cents per title.  To download and correct a book,
>you earn $2.50.  Do ten of those per year, you earn half of your annual
>membership.
>
>So, there are ways that a person with limited income resources can benefit
>and still use the service.
>
>Amanda Lee
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

Gena, a couple of misconceptions here.  First, one doesn't have to buy
the book in order to scan it.  One can request the book from a regular
library and scan it.  As for the cost of K1000 or Ruby, yes, these do
cost, and it is a shame that such things have to cost as much as they
do.  

There are scholarships available through various organizations,
apparently.    I think what they are trying to do is to get Lions or
something similar to donate the money so that folks who can not afford
the fee will be able to do so.    I think they are also looking for
organizations who want to scan books.  

I know it looks like things are sort of skewed, and I know they need
to do more about getting access via Lynx and that, but the idea is
sound.  

I'm not sure what formats they require.  I do know that there are
strict rules about not submitting stuff that has been scanned for you,
like text books and all, or propriatary materials from a university.
They're working on all this.  It's only a couple of weeks old.
They'll work out the kinks.

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Janina Sajka]

Forget OpenBook and K1000 and all that Windows <expletive deleted> stuff, 
use scanimage and gocr from the command line. It works.


On Fri, 15 Mar 2002, Ann Parsons wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> Gena, a couple of misconceptions here.  First, one doesn't have to buy
> the book in order to scan it.  One can request the book from a regular
> library and scan it.  As for the cost of K1000 or Ruby, yes, these do
> cost, and it is a shame that such things have to cost as much as they
> do.  
> 
> There are scholarships available through various organizations,
> apparently.    I think what they are trying to do is to get Lions or
> something similar to donate the money so that folks who can not afford
> the fee will be able to do so.    I think they are also looking for
> organizations who want to scan books.  
> 
> I know it looks like things are sort of skewed, and I know they need
> to do more about getting access via Lynx and that, but the idea is
> sound.  
> 
> I'm not sure what formats they require.  I do know that there are
> strict rules about not submitting stuff that has been scanned for you,
> like text books and all, or propriatary materials from a university.
> They're working on all this.  It's only a couple of weeks old.
> They'll work out the kinks.
> 
> Ann P.
> 
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Gregory Nowak]

I humbley disagree that the windows ocr programs should be dumpped. First, the ocr engine in something like gocr is not as good as it is in openbook for example. In fact, I believe that someone on this list stated a while back that they thought that openbook ruby had the best ocr engine out there. Second, even though there may be kernel drivers for them, SANE doesn't support every scanner out there. This is why the windows ocr packages cannot be dumpped, at least not until they are comparible in their performance to their gnu/linux counterparts.
Greg


On Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 01:30:30PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> Forget OpenBook and K1000 and all that Windows <expletive deleted> stuff, 
> use scanimage and gocr from the command line. It works.
> 
> 
> On Fri, 15 Mar 2002, Ann Parsons wrote:
> 
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > Gena, a couple of misconceptions here.  First, one doesn't have to buy
> > the book in order to scan it.  One can request the book from a regular
> > library and scan it.  As for the cost of K1000 or Ruby, yes, these do
> > cost, and it is a shame that such things have to cost as much as they
> > do.  
> > 
> > There are scholarships available through various organizations,
> > apparently.    I think what they are trying to do is to get Lions or
> > something similar to donate the money so that folks who can not afford
> > the fee will be able to do so.    I think they are also looking for
> > organizations who want to scan books.  
> > 
> > I know it looks like things are sort of skewed, and I know they need
> > to do more about getting access via Lynx and that, but the idea is
> > sound.  
> > 
> > I'm not sure what formats they require.  I do know that there are
> > strict rules about not submitting stuff that has been scanned for you,
> > like text books and all, or propriatary materials from a university.
> > They're working on all this.  It's only a couple of weeks old.
> > They'll work out the kinks.
> > 
> > Ann P.
> > 
> > 
> 
> -- 
> 	
> 				Janina Sajka, Director
> 				Technology Research and Development
> 				Governmental Relations Group
> 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Amanda Lee]

Actually, I am not saying this with predjudice so please don't think that
I am talking out of personal preference by making a statement which isn't
factual but I am making the following statement which is indeed a fact.

Open book relies upon an earlier version of Fineengine than does the
Kurzweil K1000 and this particular OCR Engine is slower than the more
current version.

I wouldn't be surprised that the next release of Open Book will offer the
latest version of Finengine.

I prefer K1000 for this reason and for other reasons I won't go into here
because this is indeed way off topic ha!

Still, if one has made an investment in one of these fine products which
are indeed designed for persons who are blind but also are way above
standard in terms of how they produce translation from print to text, as
long as that product is reliable and works well for the individual, ther
is no need really to dump one for the other as they are comparable in
quality.

Amanda Lee



On Fri, 15 Mar 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:

> I humbley disagree that the windows ocr programs should be dumpped. First, the ocr engine in something like gocr is not as good as it is in openbook for example. In fact, I believe that someone on this list stated a while back that they thought that openbook ruby had the best ocr engine out there. Second, even though there may be kernel drivers for them, SANE doesn't support every scanner out there. This is why the windows ocr packages cannot be dumpped, at least not until they are comparible in their performance to their gnu/linux counterparts.
> Greg
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 01:30:30PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > Forget OpenBook and K1000 and all that Windows <expletive deleted> stuff,
> > use scanimage and gocr from the command line. It works.
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 15 Mar 2002, Ann Parsons wrote:
> >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > Gena, a couple of misconceptions here.  First, one doesn't have to buy
> > > the book in order to scan it.  One can request the book from a regular
> > > library and scan it.  As for the cost of K1000 or Ruby, yes, these do
> > > cost, and it is a shame that such things have to cost as much as they
> > > do.
> > >
> > > There are scholarships available through various organizations,
> > > apparently.    I think what they are trying to do is to get Lions or
> > > something similar to donate the money so that folks who can not afford
> > > the fee will be able to do so.    I think they are also looking for
> > > organizations who want to scan books.
> > >
> > > I know it looks like things are sort of skewed, and I know they need
> > > to do more about getting access via Lynx and that, but the idea is
> > > sound.
> > >
> > > I'm not sure what formats they require.  I do know that there are
> > > strict rules about not submitting stuff that has been scanned for you,
> > > like text books and all, or propriatary materials from a university.
> > > They're working on all this.  It's only a couple of weeks old.
> > > They'll work out the kinks.
> > >
> > > Ann P.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > 				Janina Sajka, Director
> > 				Technology Research and Development
> > 				Governmental Relations Group
> > 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Ot scanning software, was Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Toby Fisher]

On Fri, 15 Mar 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:

> Still, if one has made an investment in one of these fine products which
> are indeed designed for persons who are blind but also are way above
> standard in terms of how they produce translation from print to text, as
> long as that product is reliable and works well for the individual, ther
> is no need really to dump one for the other as they are comparable in
> quality.

I quite agree, each to his/her own.

For me, I use Omnipage, which came with my scanner.  Ok, it is not perfect
and I do not use it for heavy scanning, but it does a nice job on my mail,
some of which is hand-written and/or on coloured paper.  I'm using a
relatively old version, 9.0, but it work fine for me.
Btw, I only paid #60 GB (about $75) for my scanner.
I suspect it wouldn't scan books too well, though I am going to try it
because it may come in useful elsewhere for me.

Cheers.
-- 
Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808

Re: Ot scanning software, was Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Georgina]

Hi

I think that you will find that your scanner will do the job nicely.  If it 
can scan at 300 dots per inch (DPI) then all you need is the software.  I'd 
suggest that people also purchased the stand-alone Fine Reader OCR software.  
It is cheaper and more accurate and is what makes k1000 andobr the products 
they are.

See http://www.abbeyy.com


Gena



>On Fri, 15 Mar 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:
>
>> Still, if one has made an investment in one of these fine products which
>> are indeed designed for persons who are blind but also are way above
>> standard in terms of how they produce translation from print to text, as
>> long as that product is reliable and works well for the individual, ther
>> is no need really to dump one for the other as they are comparable in
>> quality.
>
>I quite agree, each to his/her own.
>
>For me, I use Omnipage, which came with my scanner.  Ok, it is not perfect
>and I do not use it for heavy scanning, but it does a nice job on my mail,
>some of which is hand-written and/or on coloured paper.  I'm using a
>relatively old version, 9.0, but it work fine for me.
>Btw, I only paid #60 GB (about $75) for my scanner.
>I suspect it wouldn't scan books too well, though I am going to try it
>because it may come in useful elsewhere for me.
>
>Cheers.
>-- 
>Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
>Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
>ICQ: #61744808
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Ot scanning software, was Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Toby Fisher]

On Sat, 16 Mar 2002, Georgina wrote:

> I think that you will find that your scanner will do the job nicely.  If it
> can scan at 300 dots per inch (DPI) then all you need is the software.  I'd
> suggest that people also purchased the stand-alone Fine Reader OCR software.
> It is cheaper and more accurate and is what makes k1000 andobr the products
> they are.

Hi, and thanks for that info.

Well, my scanner will do 600 dpi so I should be ok there.  To bring this
somewhat back on topic, how does gocr stand up in this regard?

Cheers.

-- 
Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808

Re: Ot scanning software, was Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Gregory Nowak]

I didn't think that ocr could work with hand written stuff.
Greg


On Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 07:27:42AM +0000, Toby Fisher wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Mar 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:
> 
> > Still, if one has made an investment in one of these fine products which
> > are indeed designed for persons who are blind but also are way above
> > standard in terms of how they produce translation from print to text, as
> > long as that product is reliable and works well for the individual, ther
> > is no need really to dump one for the other as they are comparable in
> > quality.
> 
> I quite agree, each to his/her own.
> 
> For me, I use Omnipage, which came with my scanner.  Ok, it is not perfect
> and I do not use it for heavy scanning, but it does a nice job on my mail,
> some of which is hand-written and/or on coloured paper.  I'm using a
> relatively old version, 9.0, but it work fine for me.
> Btw, I only paid #60 GB (about $75) for my scanner.
> I suspect it wouldn't scan books too well, though I am going to try it
> because it may come in useful elsewhere for me.
> 
> Cheers.
> -- 
> Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
> Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
> ICQ: #61744808
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Ot scanning software, was Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Amanda Lee]

No ocr cant but you can scan it into an image.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2002 11:44 AM
Subject: Re: Ot scanning software, was Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing
service for the blind borrows a page from Napster


I didn't think that ocr could work with hand written stuff.
Greg


On Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 07:27:42AM +0000, Toby Fisher wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Mar 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:
>
> > Still, if one has made an investment in one of these fine products which
> > are indeed designed for persons who are blind but also are way above
> > standard in terms of how they produce translation from print to text, as
> > long as that product is reliable and works well for the individual, ther
> > is no need really to dump one for the other as they are comparable in
> > quality.
>
> I quite agree, each to his/her own.
>
> For me, I use Omnipage, which came with my scanner.  Ok, it is not perfect
> and I do not use it for heavy scanning, but it does a nice job on my mail,
> some of which is hand-written and/or on coloured paper.  I'm using a
> relatively old version, 9.0, but it work fine for me.
> Btw, I only paid #60 GB (about $75) for my scanner.
> I suspect it wouldn't scan books too well, though I am going to try it
> because it may come in useful elsewhere for me.
>
> Cheers.
> --
> Toby Fisher Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
> Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272 Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
> ICQ: #61744808
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Ot scanning software, was Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Toby Fisher]

On Sat, 16 Mar 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:

> No ocr cant but you can scan it into an image.

I wonder if the key to it is that I tell the ocr software to ignore all
fonts and formatting, but at the same time tell it that there is a mixed
page layout.  Interestingly, the only things it seems to have troulbe with
are bank statements, phone bills etc but that's not a problem as I fget
those in braille, it just means I know what they are and can thus file
them away.

Cheers.

-- 
Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808

Re: Ot scanning software, was Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Toby Fisher]

On Sat, 16 Mar 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:

> I didn't think that ocr could work with hand written stuff.

Hehe, nor did I, maybe I just know ppl with real neat hand writing. *grin*

Cheers.

-- 
Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

Good post Greg, there are some draw-backs that really need to be
acknowledged, much as we hate to.  However, should things improve, as
I say, I'll be one of the first to try it.

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

Janina, you better not keep talking like that.  You better not,
because if you do, I'm going to demand lessons in SANE and GOCR and
I'm going to want to know every single thing about it.  Further, if I
discover that this stuff works out of the box for an inexperienced
user like me, I'm going to trash Windows so fast you won't have time
to blink!  

How well does this stuff work?  How well does it work with speakup?
What's the learning curve like?  In short, give me the straight scoop,
all of it, mind, the whole scoop! 

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Janina Sajka]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, I have to write another HOWTO. Fortunately, this 
one is pretty short! <grin>

Actually, I discovered this by necessity a few weeks ago. I had a book 
from the library that I desparately wanted to read. So, having heard that 
scanning wasn't accessible under linux except for that ocrshop thing that 
I didn't want to spend $99 on just for one book, I rooted around in my old 
CDR's for my trusty old OpenBook Ruby. I found and installed on my Win 
system, and guess what, Windows wouldn't work anymore. Seems some kind of 
conflict with the old OpenBook SAPI stuff against the newer ones in 
Win-Eyes and JFW. Groan. 

So, I go to linux and start reading. First, I do apropos ocr -- and of 
course I find gocr. Then I do ocr scan and I find scanimage. Hmmm, says I, 
let's do man scanimage, well, and would you believe there it was.

So, I created a temporary directory for myself, and studied the commands 
for scanimage. I soon discovered I could put a switch onto my command line 
that would give me time to turn the page in the book and reposition it on 
the scanner. I forget what it is--but it's there. This let me push a 
button on my scanner to scan the next page. So, I did that. Now, I had 600 
files in this temp directory--one file per page of this book.

Next I ran them through gocr.

What can I say? I'm reading.

Is it as good as K1000 or the new OpenBook? I have no opinion. I wouldn't 
know. 

Does it have a friendly intuitive front end. Absolutely. The best!

<big grin>



On Fri, 15 Mar 2002, Ann Parsons wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> Janina, you better not keep talking like that.  You better not,
> because if you do, I'm going to demand lessons in SANE and GOCR and
> I'm going to want to know every single thing about it.  Further, if I
> discover that this stuff works out of the box for an inexperienced
> user like me, I'm going to trash Windows so fast you won't have time
> to blink!  
> 
> How well does this stuff work?  How well does it work with speakup?
> What's the learning curve like?  In short, give me the straight scoop,
> all of it, mind, the whole scoop! 
> 
> Ann P.
> 
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

<smile>  OK, well let me get my sound stuff working first, then, I'll
see.

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Maurice A. Mines]

hi me to 

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Janina Sajka]

Oh, I don't know, Gina. Maybe they could use a ten year old scanner, linux 
and sane and gocr, like I do.


On Fri, 15 Mar 2002, Georgina wrote:

> Hi
> 
> Please see my message on the cost of producing these books.  To say that 
> someone with low income can recooperate some or all of their costs is got to 
> be missleading.
> 
> As you already know my feelings on the cost of K1000 there's no need for me 
> to go into that but if someone can't afford a scanner and K1000 or even Open 
> Book Ruby, how are they going to recooperate some or all of the cost?
> 
> Surely, corretcing is out of the question too?  Firstly, they'd have to go 
> and buy the book and then be able to compare words and other symbols on the 
> screen with that on the printed pages of the book.
> 
> Furthermore, that's if they can afford to use Windows to use the above ocr 
> packages.  I understood that the image files were also required, thus only 
> Windows users might and I say might be the only ones to be able to submit 
> scanned material.  What is the required format?
> 
> It'll be very interesting to see how many people will be in a position to 
> submit material to the project.
> 
> Gena
> 
> 
> 
> >Actually, the cost is $50 per year.  First year there is a $25 setup fee.
> >But as stated, if you contribute by submitting books that you scan,
> >correct errors and do what they call Publish to submit books already
> >uploaded and/or do what is known as Basic Publish whereby you clean-up
> >their database to reflect appropriate information about the entried
> >therein, you earn fifty cents per title.  To download and correct a book,
> >you earn $2.50.  Do ten of those per year, you earn half of your annual
> >membership.
> >
> >So, there are ways that a person with limited income resources can benefit
> >and still use the service.
> >
> >Amanda Lee
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Amanda Lee]

Or in Windblows, TextBridge comes free with some scanners and scanners are
cheapper than probably Janina's was ten years ago <smile!>  TextBridge
does not have the more user-oriented features found in a product such as
K1000 or Open book, but, if one is determined to convert printed materials
into an accessible form, it can be done at a fairly reasonable cost.

much the same, Janina has a good solution as well...

Amanda Lee



On Fri, 15 Mar 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:

> Oh, I don't know, Gina. Maybe they could use a ten year old scanner, linux
> and sane and gocr, like I do.
>
>
> On Fri, 15 Mar 2002, Georgina wrote:
>
> > Hi
> >
> > Please see my message on the cost of producing these books.  To say that
> > someone with low income can recooperate some or all of their costs is got to
> > be missleading.
> >
> > As you already know my feelings on the cost of K1000 there's no need for me
> > to go into that but if someone can't afford a scanner and K1000 or even Open
> > Book Ruby, how are they going to recooperate some or all of the cost?
> >
> > Surely, corretcing is out of the question too?  Firstly, they'd have to go
> > and buy the book and then be able to compare words and other symbols on the
> > screen with that on the printed pages of the book.
> >
> > Furthermore, that's if they can afford to use Windows to use the above ocr
> > packages.  I understood that the image files were also required, thus only
> > Windows users might and I say might be the only ones to be able to submit
> > scanned material.  What is the required format?
> >
> > It'll be very interesting to see how many people will be in a position to
> > submit material to the project.
> >
> > Gena
> >
> >
> >
> > >Actually, the cost is $50 per year.  First year there is a $25 setup fee.
> > >But as stated, if you contribute by submitting books that you scan,
> > >correct errors and do what they call Publish to submit books already
> > >uploaded and/or do what is known as Basic Publish whereby you clean-up
> > >their database to reflect appropriate information about the entried
> > >therein, you earn fifty cents per title.  To download and correct a book,
> > >you earn $2.50.  Do ten of those per year, you earn half of your annual
> > >membership.
> > >
> > >So, there are ways that a person with limited income resources can benefit
> > >and still use the service.
> > >
> > >Amanda Lee
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Speakup mailing list
> > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> --
>
> 				Janina Sajka, Director
> 				Technology Research and Development
> 				Governmental Relations Group
> 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Janina Sajka]

OK. Next problem! <grin>

Full page braille displays have long been a kind of holy grail that we 
dream of and can't attain. As things stand, a single line display is 
horrendously expensive.

We need a breakthrough. We need two breakthroughs, actually:

1.)	Price. Anything we know today says this would go through the 
ceiling--tens of thousands of dollars, at least;

2.)	Complexity. I don't know that we understand how to build anything 
this complicated and keep it controlled. Current single line displays are 
already very complicated, mechanically--which is why they're so expensive.

My conclusion: Were we to make breakthroughs on the above two points we'd 
want a full page braille display before this kind of unit.


-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Janina Sajka]

Ooops. Sorry folks, somehow between the time I read the message I was 
replying to, I managed to push a button and reply to the wrong message.

If that doesn't make sense, just know that this message had nothing to do 
with speakup or this list. It was one of those inside AFB discussions that 
got inserted in the wrong place.

Sorry.
 On Fri, 15 Mar 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:

> OK. Next problem! <grin>
> 
> Full page braille displays have long been a kind of holy grail that we 
> dream of and can't attain. As things stand, a single line display is 
> horrendously expensive.
> 
> We need a breakthrough. We need two breakthroughs, actually:
> 
> 1.)	Price. Anything we know today says this would go through the 
> ceiling--tens of thousands of dollars, at least;
> 
> 2.)	Complexity. I don't know that we understand how to build anything 
> this complicated and keep it controlled. Current single line displays are 
> already very complicated, mechanically--which is why they're so expensive.
> 
> My conclusion: Were we to make breakthroughs on the above two points we'd 
> want a full page braille display before this kind of unit.
> 
> 
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Ann Parsons]

Hi Janina,

Actually, it kinda made sense.  It fit into some other stuff I was
reading and I didn't even blink when it came through.  It followed
beautifully, at least in my mail queue.  

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Amanda Lee]

Yes and I want one which opens like a braille  book which isn't heavy nor
too rigid that I can hold on my lap with perhaps a cable plugged into my
Notebook which is in its' airlines compliant case at my feet under the
seat in front of me.  Actually, forget the fargin' cable, it shall be
wireless and shall receive the signal from my notebook to deliver the
goods which make me my page of braille so that I can sit comfortably in a
seat anywhere and read to my lil' heart's desire!

LOL! LOL! some more!

I still do want this you know!

Amanda Lee



On Fri, 15 Mar 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:

> OK. Next problem! <grin>
>
> Full page braille displays have long been a kind of holy grail that we
> dream of and can't attain. As things stand, a single line display is
> horrendously expensive.
>
> We need a breakthrough. We need two breakthroughs, actually:
>
> 1.)	Price. Anything we know today says this would go through the
> ceiling--tens of thousands of dollars, at least;
>
> 2.)	Complexity. I don't know that we understand how to build anything
> this complicated and keep it controlled. Current single line displays are
> already very complicated, mechanically--which is why they're so expensive.
>
> My conclusion: Were we to make breakthroughs on the above two points we'd
> want a full page braille display before this kind of unit.
>
>
> --
>
> 				Janina Sajka, Director
> 				Technology Research and Development
> 				Governmental Relations Group
> 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Steve Holmes]

Oh, and while we're at it, I want it to have a little cup hole on the
corner for my scotch on the rocks so I can drink and fly while I'm
surfing!

On Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 03:39:37PM -0500, Amanda Lee wrote:
> Yes and I want one which opens like a braille  book which isn't heavy nor
> too rigid that I can hold on my lap with perhaps a cable plugged into my
> Notebook which is in its' airlines compliant case at my feet under the
> seat in front of me.  Actually, forget the fargin' cable, it shall be
> wireless and shall receive the signal from my notebook to deliver the
> goods which make me my page of braille so that I can sit comfortably in a
> seat anywhere and read to my lil' heart's desire!
> 
> LOL! LOL! some more!
> 
> I still do want this you know!
> 
> Amanda Lee
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, 15 Mar 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
> 
> > OK. Next problem! <grin>
> >
> > Full page braille displays have long been a kind of holy grail that we
> > dream of and can't attain. As things stand, a single line display is
> > horrendously expensive.
> >
> > We need a breakthrough. We need two breakthroughs, actually:
> >
> > 1.)	Price. Anything we know today says this would go through the
> > ceiling--tens of thousands of dollars, at least;
> >
> > 2.)	Complexity. I don't know that we understand how to build anything
> > this complicated and keep it controlled. Current single line displays are
> > already very complicated, mechanically--which is why they're so expensive.
> >
> > My conclusion: Were we to make breakthroughs on the above two points we'd
> > want a full page braille display before this kind of unit.
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > 				Janina Sajka, Director
> > 				Technology Research and Development
> > 				Governmental Relations Group
> > 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Amanda Lee]

Naa you need a rapid infuser for that so you can obtain the e most bang
especially while airborne because one achieves double-duty that way!
<snicker!>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Holmes" <steve@holmesgrown.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2002 2:34 AM
Subject: Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a
page from Napster


Oh, and while we're at it, I want it to have a little cup hole on the
corner for my scotch on the rocks so I can drink and fly while I'm
surfing!

On Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 03:39:37PM -0500, Amanda Lee wrote:
> Yes and I want one which opens like a braille  book which isn't heavy nor
> too rigid that I can hold on my lap with perhaps a cable plugged into my
> Notebook which is in its' airlines compliant case at my feet under the
> seat in front of me.  Actually, forget the fargin' cable, it shall be
> wireless and shall receive the signal from my notebook to deliver the
> goods which make me my page of braille so that I can sit comfortably in a
> seat anywhere and read to my lil' heart's desire!
>
> LOL! LOL! some more!
>
> I still do want this you know!
>
> Amanda Lee
>
>
>
> On Fri, 15 Mar 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
>
> > OK. Next problem! <grin>
> >
> > Full page braille displays have long been a kind of holy grail that we
> > dream of and can't attain. As things stand, a single line display is
> > horrendously expensive.
> >
> > We need a breakthrough. We need two breakthroughs, actually:
> >
> > 1.) Price. Anything we know today says this would go through the
> > ceiling--tens of thousands of dollars, at least;
> >
> > 2.) Complexity. I don't know that we understand how to build anything
> > this complicated and keep it controlled. Current single line displays
are
> > already very complicated, mechanically--which is why they're so
expensive.
> >
> > My conclusion: Were we to make breakthroughs on the above two points
we'd
> > want a full page braille display before this kind of unit.
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Janina Sajka, Director
> > Technology Research and Development
> > Governmental Relations Group
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[jwantz]

Hi,
A number of years ago I had the opportunity to work with a full page I 
thought was produced by AFB.  They were using it for graphics display.  
It took about 35 seconds to display a map--but hey it worked.  I'm 
fairly sure that it could also display Braille.  On OCR, I believe that 
their is a Linux OCR package that uses Fine Engine.  Both k1000 and Ruby 
use Fine engine.  I have a friend who has k1000 and the latest Openbook 
Ruby and he feels that k1000 is slightly better on recognition.  It must 
be something than the OCR engine!

     Jim
On Fri, 15 Mar 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:

> OK. Next problem! <grin>
> 
> Full page braille displays have long been a kind of holy grail that we 
> dream of and can't attain. As things stand, a single line display is 
> horrendously expensive.
> 
> We need a breakthrough. We need two breakthroughs, actually:
> 
> 1.)	Price. Anything we know today says this would go through the 
> ceiling--tens of thousands of dollars, at least;
> 
> 2.)	Complexity. I don't know that we understand how to build anything 
> this complicated and keep it controlled. Current single line displays are 
> already very complicated, mechanically--which is why they're so expensive.
> 
> My conclusion: Were we to make breakthroughs on the above two points we'd 
> want a full page braille display before this kind of unit.
> 
> 
> 

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[TALMAGE]

But if it is wireless you won't be able to use it on that aircraft.

Dave Talmage

At 03:39 PM 3/15/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Yes and I want one which opens like a braille  book which isn't heavy nor
>too rigid that I can hold on my lap with perhaps a cable plugged into my
>Notebook which is in its' airlines compliant case at my feet under the
>seat in front of me.  Actually, forget the fargin' cable, it shall be
>wireless and shall receive the signal from my notebook to deliver the
>goods which make me my page of braille so that I can sit comfortably in a
>seat anywhere and read to my lil' heart's desire!

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Amanda Lee]

Not entirely true as if it is infrared it would probably be acceptible.  But
couldn't use any wireless technology operating on either the 900MHZ or
2.4Ghz bands.

Amanda Lee

----- Original Message -----
From: <TALMAGE@SOMTEL.COM>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 11:31 PM
Subject: Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a
page from Napster


But if it is wireless you won't be able to use it on that aircraft.

Dave Talmage

At 03:39 PM 3/15/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Yes and I want one which opens like a braille  book which isn't heavy nor
>too rigid that I can hold on my lap with perhaps a cable plugged into my
>Notebook which is in its' airlines compliant case at my feet under the
>seat in front of me.  Actually, forget the fargin' cable, it shall be
>wireless and shall receive the signal from my notebook to deliver the
>goods which make me my page of braille so that I can sit comfortably in a
>seat anywhere and read to my lil' heart's desire!


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Toby Fisher]

On Sat, 16 Mar 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:

> Not entirely true as if it is infrared it would probably be acceptible.  But
> couldn't use any wireless technology operating on either the 900MHZ or
> 2.4Ghz bands.

Perhaps, but can you imagine trying to explain to the attendants that it
doesn't run on those frequencies?  I mean, like they'll believe you,
hahaha.  In fact, if you're really lucky, a fellow passenger might even
think it were a controller for a bomb or something. *smile*

Cheers.
-- 
Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Amanda Lee]

They would likely not see a thing but your notebook in it's carrying case
and your braille page which they don't need to know about what comprises its
connectivity methodology.

For me, the  infrared is already built-into my notebook and that is not
obvious to the human eye.  Same could exist inside of the braille display.


Amanda Lee


----- Original Message -----
From: "Toby Fisher" <toby_fisher@bigfoot.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2002 2:46 AM
Subject: Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a
page from Napster


On Sat, 16 Mar 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:

> Not entirely true as if it is infrared it would probably be acceptible.
But
> couldn't use any wireless technology operating on either the 900MHZ or
> 2.4Ghz bands.

Perhaps, but can you imagine trying to explain to the attendants that it
doesn't run on those frequencies?  I mean, like they'll believe you,
hahaha.  In fact, if you're really lucky, a fellow passenger might even
think it were a controller for a bomb or something. *smile*

Cheers.
--
Toby Fisher Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272 Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808



_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Gregory Nowak]

Yeah, but you'd need to line up the ports, so there goes the idea of having the notebook under the seat.
Greg


On Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 11:40:05AM -0500, Amanda Lee wrote:
> They would likely not see a thing but your notebook in it's carrying case
> and your braille page which they don't need to know about what comprises its
> connectivity methodology.
> 
> For me, the  infrared is already built-into my notebook and that is not
> obvious to the human eye.  Same could exist inside of the braille display.
> 
> 
> Amanda Lee
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Toby Fisher" <toby_fisher@bigfoot.com>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2002 2:46 AM
> Subject: Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a
> page from Napster
> 
> 
> On Sat, 16 Mar 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:
> 
> > Not entirely true as if it is infrared it would probably be acceptible.
> But
> > couldn't use any wireless technology operating on either the 900MHZ or
> > 2.4Ghz bands.
> 
> Perhaps, but can you imagine trying to explain to the attendants that it
> doesn't run on those frequencies?  I mean, like they'll believe you,
> hahaha.  In fact, if you're really lucky, a fellow passenger might even
> think it were a controller for a bomb or something. *smile*
> 
> Cheers.
> --
> Toby Fisher Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
> Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272 Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
> ICQ: #61744808
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Amanda Lee]

One can just place the notebook directly under seat in front of them with
the end containing the wireless device facing them.  I actually am not
certain where the one inside my notebook is as there are no labels or arrows
or anything which one needs to line up with.   So I would think that even
though infrared is very directional, that it would work in this instance
because the distance and line of site is very close on.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2002 12:01 PM
Subject: Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a
page from Napster


Yeah, but you'd need to line up the ports, so there goes the idea of having
the notebook under the seat.
Greg


On Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 11:40:05AM -0500, Amanda Lee wrote:
> They would likely not see a thing but your notebook in it's carrying case
> and your braille page which they don't need to know about what comprises
its
> connectivity methodology.
>
> For me, the  infrared is already built-into my notebook and that is not
> obvious to the human eye.  Same could exist inside of the braille display.
>
>
> Amanda Lee
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Toby Fisher" <toby_fisher@bigfoot.com>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2002 2:46 AM
> Subject: Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a
> page from Napster
>
>
> On Sat, 16 Mar 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:
>
> > Not entirely true as if it is infrared it would probably be acceptible.
> But
> > couldn't use any wireless technology operating on either the 900MHZ or
> > 2.4Ghz bands.
>
> Perhaps, but can you imagine trying to explain to the attendants that it
> doesn't run on those frequencies?  I mean, like they'll believe you,
> hahaha.  In fact, if you're really lucky, a fellow passenger might even
> think it were a controller for a bomb or something. *smile*
>
> Cheers.
> --
> Toby Fisher Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
> Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272 Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
> ICQ: #61744808
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

<smile>  BTW gals, it's Gena, not Gina.  If you're going to fight with
somebody the least you can do is spell his/her name right.  

Thing is, Janina, what I'm most concerned about is the user friendly
aspect of this software of yours.  I'm not a programmer, and I'm just
learning to write scripts and so on.  

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Janina Sajka]

Yes, I'm so very sorry, Gena. I, of all  people, should not be doing this 
to others. What's that thing about do unto others?

Very sorry, and thanks, Ann, for bringing me up on it. I promise not to 
mis-spell Gena's name ever again.

On Fri, 15 Mar 2002, Ann Parsons wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> <smile>  BTW gals, it's Gena, not Gina.  If you're going to fight with
> somebody the least you can do is spell his/her name right.  
> 
> Thing is, Janina, what I'm most concerned about is the user friendly
> aspect of this software of yours.  I'm not a programmer, and I'm just
> learning to write scripts and so on.  
> 
> Ann P.
> 
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Georgina]

Hi

Don't worry about it, I chose to be different and spell it differently.  
Its just one of those intriguing facets of the transsexual condition.

Gena



>
>Yes, I'm so very sorry, Gena. I, of all  people, should not be doing this 
>to others. What's that thing about do unto others?
>
>Very sorry, and thanks, Ann, for bringing me up on it. I promise not to 
>mis-spell Gena's name ever again.
>
>On Fri, 15 Mar 2002, Ann Parsons wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> <smile>  BTW gals, it's Gena, not Gina.  If you're going to fight with
>> somebody the least you can do is spell his/her name right.  
>> 
>> Thing is, Janina, what I'm most concerned about is the user friendly
>> aspect of this software of yours.  I'm not a programmer, and I'm just
>> learning to write scripts and so on.  
>> 
>> Ann P.
>> 
>> 
>
>-- 
>	
>				Janina Sajka, Director
>				Technology Research and Development
>				Governmental Relations Group
>				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
>Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
>Chair, Accessibility SIG
>Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>http://www.openebook.org
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Georgina]

Hi

Can that type of set up meet their requirements in terms of the required image 
file?


Gena



>Oh, I don't know, Gina. Maybe they could use a ten year old scanner, linux 
>and sane and gocr, like I do.
>
>
>On Fri, 15 Mar 2002, Georgina wrote:
>
>> Hi
>> 
>> Please see my message on the cost of producing these books.  To say that 
>> someone with low income can recooperate some or all of their costs is got to
 
>> be missleading.
>> 
>> As you already know my feelings on the cost of K1000 there's no need for me 
>> to go into that but if someone can't afford a scanner and K1000 or even Open
 
>> Book Ruby, how are they going to recooperate some or all of the cost?
>> 
>> Surely, corretcing is out of the question too?  Firstly, they'd have to go 
>> and buy the book and then be able to compare words and other symbols on the 
>> screen with that on the printed pages of the book.
>> 
>> Furthermore, that's if they can afford to use Windows to use the above ocr 
>> packages.  I understood that the image files were also required, thus only 
>> Windows users might and I say might be the only ones to be able to submit 
>> scanned material.  What is the required format?
>> 
>> It'll be very interesting to see how many people will be in a position to 
>> submit material to the project.
>> 
>> Gena
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> >Actually, the cost is $50 per year.  First year there is a $25 setup fee.
>> >But as stated, if you contribute by submitting books that you scan,
>> >correct errors and do what they call Publish to submit books already
>> >uploaded and/or do what is known as Basic Publish whereby you clean-up
>> >their database to reflect appropriate information about the entried
>> >therein, you earn fifty cents per title.  To download and correct a book,
>> >you earn $2.50.  Do ten of those per year, you earn half of your annual
>> >membership.
>> >
>> >So, there are ways that a person with limited income resources can benefit
>> >and still use the service.
>> >
>> >Amanda Lee
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Speakup mailing list
>> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> 
>
>-- 
>	
>				Janina Sajka, Director
>				Technology Research and Development
>				Governmental Relations Group
>				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
>Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
>Chair, Accessibility SIG
>Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>http://www.openebook.org
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Amanda Lee]

As has been said at least twice on here,

read this please...

Image files are not and I repeat this, image files are not required on
Bookshare.  I am a Volunteer there and I follow the discussions as well as
policy.

Amanda Lee

----- Original Message -----
From: "Georgina" <gena@gena-j.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 8:35 PM
Subject: Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a
page from Napster


Hi

Can that type of set up meet their requirements in terms of the required
image
file?


Gena



>Oh, I don't know, Gina. Maybe they could use a ten year old scanner, linux
>and sane and gocr, like I do.
>
>
>On Fri, 15 Mar 2002, Georgina wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>> Please see my message on the cost of producing these books.  To say that
>> someone with low income can recooperate some or all of their costs is got
to

>> be missleading.
>>
>> As you already know my feelings on the cost of K1000 there's no need for
me
>> to go into that but if someone can't afford a scanner and K1000 or even
Open

>> Book Ruby, how are they going to recooperate some or all of the cost?
>>
>> Surely, corretcing is out of the question too?  Firstly, they'd have to
go
>> and buy the book and then be able to compare words and other symbols on
the
>> screen with that on the printed pages of the book.
>>
>> Furthermore, that's if they can afford to use Windows to use the above
ocr
>> packages.  I understood that the image files were also required, thus
only
>> Windows users might and I say might be the only ones to be able to submit
>> scanned material.  What is the required format?
>>
>> It'll be very interesting to see how many people will be in a position to
>> submit material to the project.
>>
>> Gena
>>
>>
>>
>> >Actually, the cost is $50 per year.  First year there is a $25 setup
fee.
>> >But as stated, if you contribute by submitting books that you scan,
>> >correct errors and do what they call Publish to submit books already
>> >uploaded and/or do what is known as Basic Publish whereby you clean-up
>> >their database to reflect appropriate information about the entried
>> >therein, you earn fifty cents per title.  To download and correct a
book,
>> >you earn $2.50.  Do ten of those per year, you earn half of your annual
>> >membership.
>> >
>> >So, there are ways that a person with limited income resources can
benefit
>> >and still use the service.
>> >
>> >Amanda Lee
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Speakup mailing list
>> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>
>--
>
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
>Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
>Chair, Accessibility SIG
>Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>http://www.openebook.org
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[jwantz]

Hi Gena,
I thought the cost of k1000 and Openbook Ruby were the same.  I run 
k1000 on a WINDOWS machine and the image files use tiff format.  As far 
as I know Ruby does as well.  I doubt they want image files though I 
haven't read their web page yet.  I assume they want processed text.

     Jim Wantz
On 
Fri, 15 Mar 2002, Georgina wrote:

> Hi
> 
> Please see my message on the cost of producing these books.  To say that 
> someone with low income can recooperate some or all of their costs is got to 
> be missleading.
> 
> As you already know my feelings on the cost of K1000 there's no need for me 
> to go into that but if someone can't afford a scanner and K1000 or even Open 
> Book Ruby, how are they going to recooperate some or all of the cost?
> 
> Surely, corretcing is out of the question too?  Firstly, they'd have to go 
> and buy the book and then be able to compare words and other symbols on the 
> screen with that on the printed pages of the book.
> 
> Furthermore, that's if they can afford to use Windows to use the above ocr 
> packages.  I understood that the image files were also required, thus only 
> Windows users might and I say might be the only ones to be able to submit 
> scanned material.  What is the required format?
> 
> It'll be very interesting to see how many people will be in a position to 
> submit material to the project.
> 
> Gena
> 
> 
> 
> >Actually, the cost is $50 per year.  First year there is a $25 setup fee.
> >But as stated, if you contribute by submitting books that you scan,
> >correct errors and do what they call Publish to submit books already
> >uploaded and/or do what is known as Basic Publish whereby you clean-up
> >their database to reflect appropriate information about the entried
> >therein, you earn fifty cents per title.  To download and correct a book,
> >you earn $2.50.  Do ten of those per year, you earn half of your annual
> >membership.
> >
> >So, there are ways that a person with limited income resources can benefit
> >and still use the service.
> >
> >Amanda Lee
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Amanda Lee]

They don't require image files.  They will accept image files but will
hold these until they have the proper technology to convert these into an
accessible electronic format.  I questioned their acceptance of Image
files because they are huge and am concerned about their running out of
storage space for these pigs.  I cringe about it but if this is the only
way they can receive a book, in moderation, I suppose this isn't all bad.

Amanda Lee



On Fri, 15 Mar 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:

> Hi Gena,
> I thought the cost of k1000 and Openbook Ruby were the same.  I run
> k1000 on a WINDOWS machine and the image files use tiff format.  As far
> as I know Ruby does as well.  I doubt they want image files though I
> haven't read their web page yet.  I assume they want processed text.
>
>      Jim Wantz
> On
> Fri, 15 Mar 2002, Georgina wrote:
>
> > Hi
> >
> > Please see my message on the cost of producing these books.  To say that
> > someone with low income can recooperate some or all of their costs is got to
> > be missleading.
> >
> > As you already know my feelings on the cost of K1000 there's no need for me
> > to go into that but if someone can't afford a scanner and K1000 or even Open
> > Book Ruby, how are they going to recooperate some or all of the cost?
> >
> > Surely, corretcing is out of the question too?  Firstly, they'd have to go
> > and buy the book and then be able to compare words and other symbols on the
> > screen with that on the printed pages of the book.
> >
> > Furthermore, that's if they can afford to use Windows to use the above ocr
> > packages.  I understood that the image files were also required, thus only
> > Windows users might and I say might be the only ones to be able to submit
> > scanned material.  What is the required format?
> >
> > It'll be very interesting to see how many people will be in a position to
> > submit material to the project.
> >
> > Gena
> >
> >
> >
> > >Actually, the cost is $50 per year.  First year there is a $25 setup fee.
> > >But as stated, if you contribute by submitting books that you scan,
> > >correct errors and do what they call Publish to submit books already
> > >uploaded and/or do what is known as Basic Publish whereby you clean-up
> > >their database to reflect appropriate information about the entried
> > >therein, you earn fifty cents per title.  To download and correct a book,
> > >you earn $2.50.  Do ten of those per year, you earn half of your annual
> > >membership.
> > >
> > >So, there are ways that a person with limited income resources can benefit
> > >and still use the service.
> > >
> > >Amanda Lee
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Speakup mailing list
> > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Georgina]

Hi

I thought that they required both formats, the text and its image so that 
when the ocr technology gets better the images can be reprocessed?

I think that it was the k1000 list that suggested that kes files would be 
required for the rerecognising of the pages.

Gena



>They don't require image files.  They will accept image files but will
>hold these until they have the proper technology to convert these into an
>accessible electronic format.  I questioned their acceptance of Image
>files because they are huge and am concerned about their running out of
>storage space for these pigs.  I cringe about it but if this is the only
>way they can receive a book, in moderation, I suppose this isn't all bad.
>
>Amanda Lee
>
>
>
>On Fri, 15 Mar 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
>
>> Hi Gena,
>> I thought the cost of k1000 and Openbook Ruby were the same.  I run
>> k1000 on a WINDOWS machine and the image files use tiff format.  As far
>> as I know Ruby does as well.  I doubt they want image files though I
>> haven't read their web page yet.  I assume they want processed text.
>>
>>      Jim Wantz
>> On
>> Fri, 15 Mar 2002, Georgina wrote:
>>
>> > Hi
>> >
>> > Please see my message on the cost of producing these books.  To say that
>> > someone with low income can recooperate some or all of their costs is got 
to
>> > be missleading.
>> >
>> > As you already know my feelings on the cost of K1000 there's no need for m
e
>> > to go into that but if someone can't afford a scanner and K1000 or even Op
en
>> > Book Ruby, how are they going to recooperate some or all of the cost?
>> >
>> > Surely, corretcing is out of the question too?  Firstly, they'd have to go
>> > and buy the book and then be able to compare words and other symbols on th
e
>> > screen with that on the printed pages of the book.
>> >
>> > Furthermore, that's if they can afford to use Windows to use the above ocr
>> > packages.  I understood that the image files were also required, thus only
>> > Windows users might and I say might be the only ones to be able to submit
>> > scanned material.  What is the required format?
>> >
>> > It'll be very interesting to see how many people will be in a position to
>> > submit material to the project.
>> >
>> > Gena
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > >Actually, the cost is $50 per year.  First year there is a $25 setup fee.
>> > >But as stated, if you contribute by submitting books that you scan,
>> > >correct errors and do what they call Publish to submit books already
>> > >uploaded and/or do what is known as Basic Publish whereby you clean-up
>> > >their database to reflect appropriate information about the entried
>> > >therein, you earn fifty cents per title.  To download and correct a book,
>> > >you earn $2.50.  Do ten of those per year, you earn half of your annual
>> > >membership.
>> > >
>> > >So, there are ways that a person with limited income resources can benefi
t
>> > >and still use the service.
>> > >
>> > >Amanda Lee
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >_______________________________________________
>> > >Speakup mailing list
>> > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Speakup mailing list
>> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> >
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Amanda Lee]

Nope, image files are not required only in the case whereby someone
contributes doesn't have an alternative means for scanning text is an image
file even accepted.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Georgina" <gena@gena-j.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 9:04 PM
Subject: Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a
page from Napster


Hi

I thought that they required both formats, the text and its image so that
when the ocr technology gets better the images can be reprocessed?

I think that it was the k1000 list that suggested that kes files would be
required for the rerecognising of the pages.

Gena



>They don't require image files.  They will accept image files but will
>hold these until they have the proper technology to convert these into an
>accessible electronic format.  I questioned their acceptance of Image
>files because they are huge and am concerned about their running out of
>storage space for these pigs.  I cringe about it but if this is the only
>way they can receive a book, in moderation, I suppose this isn't all bad.
>
>Amanda Lee
>
>
>
>On Fri, 15 Mar 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
>
>> Hi Gena,
>> I thought the cost of k1000 and Openbook Ruby were the same.  I run
>> k1000 on a WINDOWS machine and the image files use tiff format.  As far
>> as I know Ruby does as well.  I doubt they want image files though I
>> haven't read their web page yet.  I assume they want processed text.
>>
>>      Jim Wantz
>> On
>> Fri, 15 Mar 2002, Georgina wrote:
>>
>> > Hi
>> >
>> > Please see my message on the cost of producing these books.  To say
that
>> > someone with low income can recooperate some or all of their costs is
got
to
>> > be missleading.
>> >
>> > As you already know my feelings on the cost of K1000 there's no need
for m
e
>> > to go into that but if someone can't afford a scanner and K1000 or even
Op
en
>> > Book Ruby, how are they going to recooperate some or all of the cost?
>> >
>> > Surely, corretcing is out of the question too?  Firstly, they'd have to
go
>> > and buy the book and then be able to compare words and other symbols on
th
e
>> > screen with that on the printed pages of the book.
>> >
>> > Furthermore, that's if they can afford to use Windows to use the above
ocr
>> > packages.  I understood that the image files were also required, thus
only
>> > Windows users might and I say might be the only ones to be able to
submit
>> > scanned material.  What is the required format?
>> >
>> > It'll be very interesting to see how many people will be in a position
to
>> > submit material to the project.
>> >
>> > Gena
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > >Actually, the cost is $50 per year.  First year there is a $25 setup
fee.
>> > >But as stated, if you contribute by submitting books that you scan,
>> > >correct errors and do what they call Publish to submit books already
>> > >uploaded and/or do what is known as Basic Publish whereby you clean-up
>> > >their database to reflect appropriate information about the entried
>> > >therein, you earn fifty cents per title.  To download and correct a
book,
>> > >you earn $2.50.  Do ten of those per year, you earn half of your
annual
>> > >membership.
>> > >
>> > >So, there are ways that a person with limited income resources can
benefi
t
>> > >and still use the service.
>> > >
>> > >Amanda Lee
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >_______________________________________________
>> > >Speakup mailing list
>> > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Speakup mailing list
>> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> >
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
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Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[TALMAGE]

I understood them to say that they would take the image files in addition
to the file that has already been converted to either  rtf, txt, doc, etc.
They just want the images on hand in case ocr improves significantly. I too
would question the value of trying to maintain image files in any quantity,
you would need enough to make it worth while to even bother, but not so
many that your storage and band width are taken up by storing and
uploading.  All in all I think it is a bad idea.

Dave Talmage

At 03:34 PM 3/15/02 -0500, you wrote:
>They don't require image files.  They will accept image files but will
>hold these until they have the proper technology to convert these into an
>accessible electronic format.  I questioned their acceptance of Image
>files because they are huge and am concerned about their running out of
>storage space for these pigs.  I cringe about it but if this is the only
>way they can receive a book, in moderation, I suppose this isn't all bad.

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Buddy Brannan]

If you're using debian, install lynx-ssl instead of just lynx. That'll
ensure you get https support. You'll also need the SSL libraries (openssl).
-- 
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV/3  | I choose you to take up all of my time.
Email: davros@ycardz.com | I choose you because you're funny and kind
                         | I want easy people from now on.
                         | --the Nields

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Ann Parsons]

Hi Buddy,

I am using Debian, and I typed apt-get install lynx-ssl  It seems to
work, although I did get an error.  Do I need to apt-get openssl?
Please advise.

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Georgina]

Hi

Thanks, thanks, for this post.  No wonder why I couldn't get very far
with Lynx.  Debian can be so bloody hard at times.

Gena



>If you're using debian, install lynx-ssl instead of just lynx. That'll
>ensure you get https support. You'll also need the SSL libraries (openssl).
>-- 
>Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV/3  | I choose you to take up all of my time.
>Email: davros@ycardz.com | I choose you because you're funny and kind
>                         | I want easy people from now on.
>                         | --the Nields
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Janina Sajka]

OK, here's the scoop. You probably do need to upgrade your lynx. It must 
be pretty old, frankly, if it doesn't contain support for SSL connections 
-- what's know as https:// etc. Lynx has supported SSL by default ever 
since the Clinton Administration lifted export restrictions -- which was 
back in 2000 or even 1999 as I recall.

The point, of course, is to protect the information you send across the 
net against identity theft. Not that what you would send to BookShare is 
as sensitive as what you might send to your bank, but it's still a good 
idea to use secure communications. And, it is very accessible--you won't 
even know the difference once you have it.

PS: If you want to get subscribed before getting your lynx upgraded, I'm 
sure they would help out by phone. Drop them an e-nmail off the page. But, 
I think you will need to encrypt in order to download.

 On Tue, 12 Mar 2002, Ann Parsons 
wrote:

> Hi Janina,
> 
> I wrote you privately on this, but maybe someone can help?  I got an
> error msg saying that my browser didn't support Shttp.  Do I need to
> upgrade Lynx or something?  Please advise.
> 
> Ann P.
> 
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Ann Parsons]

Hi Janina,

All is well.  I got subscribed.  Thanks for your help.  I really
appreciate it.  I thought the only way I could access anything was via
Windows and I was feeling extremely frustrated.  I guess when I
upgraded to Woody, Lynx didn't upgrade itself.  It has now, took me
about five mins.  

I think they need somebody on that discussion list who can help with
access via Lynx.  It's a really lonely feeling to listen to all kinds
of Windows hints and tips and not be able to act on 'em.  I'm glad I
got this far.  Still won't be able to download copyrighted books, but
I can't do that till I'm certified anyhow.  By then, my guru should
have my Windows set-up going again.  

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Janina Sajka]

Hey, Ann:

Maybe, with a little luck, you'll be able to just read your books on linux 
before that Windows box is fixed!

On Wed, 13 Mar 2002, Ann Parsons wrote:

> Hi Janina,
> 
> All is well.  I got subscribed.  Thanks for your help.  I really
> appreciate it.  I thought the only way I could access anything was via
> Windows and I was feeling extremely frustrated.  I guess when I
> upgraded to Woody, Lynx didn't upgrade itself.  It has now, took me
> about five mins.  
> 
> I think they need somebody on that discussion list who can help with
> access via Lynx.  It's a really lonely feeling to listen to all kinds
> of Windows hints and tips and not be able to act on 'em.  I'm glad I
> got this far.  Still won't be able to download copyrighted books, but
> I can't do that till I'm certified anyhow.  By then, my guru should
> have my Windows set-up going again.  
> 
> Ann P.
> 
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Ann Parsons]

Hi Janina,

Now, that would be super, absolutely super! 

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows apage from Napster

[Igor Gueths]

Hi Ann. Do you mean an error that says lynx does not support https urls or something? because if this is the case, I believe the latest version of lynx supports Ssl. 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Ann Parsons <akp@eznet.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 8:12 PM
Subject: Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows apage from Napster


> Hi Janina,
> 
> I wrote you privately on this, but maybe someone can help?  I got an
> error msg saying that my browser didn't support Shttp.  Do I need to
> upgrade Lynx or something?  Please advise.
> 
> Ann P.
> 
> -- 
> Ann K. Parsons  
> email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup


_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows apage from Napster

[Ann Parsons]

Hi Igor,

All's well, all's fixed.  No worries.

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

I have now successfully updated my Lynx and have accessed the forms at
Bookshare.  I did have a small amount of trouble, however.  I think I
did everything right.

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Janina Sajka]

Yeh, Ann. 

I will convey the "slight bit of trouble" part. I think their form, and 
its onscreen / onspeech presentation could be much clearer.


On Tue, 12 Mar 2002, Ann Parsons wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> I have now successfully updated my Lynx and have accessed the forms at
> Bookshare.  I did have a small amount of trouble, however.  I think I
> did everything right.
> 
> Ann P.
> 
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Ann Parsons]

Hi Janina,

thanks, appreciate your time and your patience in listening to me.

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Chris Peterson]

Could you guys take this off the list?

Chris Peterson
_______________
The Space Report
Internet and satellite delivered news from space.
Visit our web site at www.TheSpaceReport.com




----- Original Message -----
From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 5:59 PM
Subject: Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a
page from Napster


> Hi Janina,
>
> <smile>  OK, but that doesn't answer my questions, Janina.  Here they
> are again.
>
> 1.  Where do you enter your name and so on on the application?  All I
>     saw was the long agreement form.  That should have come *after*
>     you added your name and so on.  I never saw any place to add
>     personal data.
>
> 2.  I'm glad about the verification process, and I can certainly
>     provide that info, no problem, but if the site only works for
>     MSIE5.5 will the search boxes work?  Will anything work at all?
>     See, that's what's so misleading.  If the statement "this site is
>     for MSIE5.5 or later" is gone, then does that mean the site is now
>     accessible?  I haven't seen anything on the beta lists about work
>     in Linux or talk of Linux or anything.  I got the impression that
>     the subject was werboten.   It's nice to know that somebody is
>     doing something, but I thought the whole idea of the beta list for
>     the site was to let people *know* what was going on.  I told Peter
>     that I'd be happy to help and that I was willing to test in Lynx.
>     When I wrote that I found the site to be inaccessible with Lynx, I
>     got no response at all, nothing!  Now maybe there was something I
>     was doing wrong, but if that was the case, then they should have
>     treated me with the same patience and understanding and courtesy
>     that the Windows users got, frankly!!
>
> Ann P.
>
> --
> Ann K. Parsons
> email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
JRRT
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Janina Sajka]

Chris:

Indeed, it was a discussion rather off the Linux topic at the point you 
wrote your note. But, I bet that you've now noticed Linux and 
accessibility became very relevant in the thread. And, it seems it was an 
issue for more folks than just the two of us.
 On Wed, 13 Mar 2002, Chris 
Peterson wrote:

> Could you guys take this off the list?
> 
> Chris Peterson
> _______________
> The Space Report
> Internet and satellite delivered news from space.
> Visit our web site at www.TheSpaceReport.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 5:59 PM
> Subject: Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a
> page from Napster
> 
> 
> > Hi Janina,
> >
> > <smile>  OK, but that doesn't answer my questions, Janina.  Here they
> > are again.
> >
> > 1.  Where do you enter your name and so on on the application?  All I
> >     saw was the long agreement form.  That should have come *after*
> >     you added your name and so on.  I never saw any place to add
> >     personal data.
> >
> > 2.  I'm glad about the verification process, and I can certainly
> >     provide that info, no problem, but if the site only works for
> >     MSIE5.5 will the search boxes work?  Will anything work at all?
> >     See, that's what's so misleading.  If the statement "this site is
> >     for MSIE5.5 or later" is gone, then does that mean the site is now
> >     accessible?  I haven't seen anything on the beta lists about work
> >     in Linux or talk of Linux or anything.  I got the impression that
> >     the subject was werboten.   It's nice to know that somebody is
> >     doing something, but I thought the whole idea of the beta list for
> >     the site was to let people *know* what was going on.  I told Peter
> >     that I'd be happy to help and that I was willing to test in Lynx.
> >     When I wrote that I found the site to be inaccessible with Lynx, I
> >     got no response at all, nothing!  Now maybe there was something I
> >     was doing wrong, but if that was the case, then they should have
> >     treated me with the same patience and understanding and courtesy
> >     that the Windows users got, frankly!!
> >
> > Ann P.
> >
> > --
> > Ann K. Parsons
> > email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> > WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> > "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
> JRRT
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Steve Holmes]

I am pleased to hear that they dropped the doctor verification.  It seems
like every service that offers services to the blind wants their own
individual verification from a doctor.  Each trip to the doctor means time
off work, office visit copays and no actual service rendored, etc.  I'm
glad they are willing to work with NLS so the same verification can be
used; so much more efficient, frankly.  I'm greateful for my life time
membership with RFB I got before they went to a renewable one.

Anyhow, I believe I went there before the doctor verification was removed
but I successfully accessed the site with lynx.  I have lynx with SSL
installed here if that really made the difference.

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

Yep, it really *did* make the difference between being able to sign up
and not.

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Patricia Logan]

     Right on, Ann!  My feelings about this almost completely 
duplicate yours.  The blindness esbablishment as well as the 
sighted world in computers, when they can't blackmail us into 
suffering with Windows for employment purposes, try the carrot 
as well as the stick.  They offer us things we would very much 
love to have, such as a wider variety of reading material, if 
and only if ...

     Janina, perhaps it might we worthwhile to compile a list 
of names of people who would use the book sharing service if 
the site and files were made linux and lynx accessible.   There 
may well be enough of us to put pressure on them big time.  If 
you make that list please add my name, resident of New York, 
NY, under Ann's.

     Pat Logan
On Tue, 12 Mar 2002, Ann Parsons wrote:

> Hi Janina,
> 
> Well, I found that it was virtually impossible to get at the site
> during the beta.  I found that the application was only a long, long,
> long, long, long agreement with several check boxes, but there was no
> place to add an address, a name of anything else!  I haven't been back
> there because it says on the top of the page that "this site is for
> users of MSIE5.5 or above."  I just didn't bother.  I figured that
> there was nothing I could do.  My Windows computer has been down for
> two months, and I want so much to download books and to join, but what
> can I do?  I have some books here I've scanned that I might
> conceivably want to upload there, but nobody deigned to say anything
> to me.  I'm on the beta list.  Nobody bothered to talk to me at all,
> find out *why* I was unhappy with the site, or what I was
> experiencing.  In fact, they just about ignored me cuz I use Linux.
> It was made very, very, very, very, very, very clear that I was just
> chopped liver and so I haven't bothered to even try to access the site
> in Lynx.  I figured that it would be virtually impossible, so I've
> been waiting for my Windows machine to get fixed, and now I discover I
> have to wait more time!
> 
> Janina, I hate Windows, but I want to join Bookshare`!  I want to
> download books!  It won't do me any good to go there anyway in Lynx
> cuz the unpack tool is for Windows, or didn't you realize that?  Sure
> they're looking for somebody to write their program for Linux because
> they've finally awakened to the fact that maybe somebody ought to pay
> attention to another OS.  But what's the good of writing an unpack
> tool for Linux when the site is "only for MSIE5.5 or above"?  I mean
> if you're going to be *that* exclusive, what's the good, Janina?  What
> about people who only have MSIE4 or Netscape or PW-Webspeak or IBM web
> reader?  What about those peopoe, huh?  Do they know how snooty and
> exclusive that phrase sounds?  Do they realize how it looks?  Haven't
> we had enough of being shut out?  
> 
> If my Windows machine isn't up yet, and if I only have Linux, then
> downloading an unpack tool for Windows isn't going to do me a hoot in
> Hell.  Maybe that's why everybody has been ignoring me, eh?  I'm
> sorry, Janina, but you asked me, and I'm telling you.  I feel shut
> out, ignored, and thrown away.  The site is for "MSIE5.5 or later", it
> says so right on the page, damn it!!!  It's supposed to be for the
> blind.  It's supposed to be so that we can access books!  It's
> supposed to be a tool to help us, and it's just another fanthom,
> supposedly accessible but only if you have the right equipment.
> <sigh>  What about people who use W3, what about them?  What about
> people who have shell accounts, there are some, you know.  They're
> limited to Lynx.  I'm sorry, Janina, but I'm disgusted and feeling
> angry and really quite upset.  I didn't realize how upset I was till
> you asked me how I was doing.
> 
> Ann P.
> 
> 

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Chris Peterson]

Oh my God!  You people amaze me over and over again.

They don't need pressure on them to make the system accessible to Linux
users.  They just need a programmer with the experience to write the
software for them.  This may surprise you, but there are many more Windows
users than Linux users and programming for Windows and Linux are different
enough so that it isn't necessarily an easy proposition to write a Linux
unpack utility with their current programmers.

Not to mention that this is a nonproffit organization that is simply trying
to organize us to do a good thing and, rather than being happy about it and
trying to provide constructive suggestions, you want to gang up on them all
at once.  Wow!  They should shut down even before they start because they
can't please everyone on the first day.  I don't believe it!

So what would be the best way to handle this?  Why not get intouch with
anyone you know who has experience programming in Linux and ask them to
volunteer to help out with a linux version of the unpack utility.

Also, rather than saying, "the web site is not accessible", before you even
tried to use it, why not go through the web site and make a list of things
you'd change to make it easier to use with Lynx.  Then send that to them and
they'll have something to work with.

Finally, if you don't have anything constructive to say, keep your mouth
shut and let them work the bugs out.  They're not Microsoft, and they don't
need us ganging up on them.  They could be spending their time on
money-making ventures, but they're trying to put together a system that'll
help us out.  I, for one, aplaud their efforts and want to see them succeed.
I imagine I'll also contribute a book from time to time.

Now, could you all take this off the list as it has nothing to do with
speakup?  Thanks!

Chris Peterson
_______________
The Space Report
Internet and satellite delivered news from space.
Visit our web site at www.TheSpaceReport.com




----- Original Message -----
From: "Patricia Logan" <plogan@dorsai.org>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 7:27 AM
Subject: Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a
page from Napster


>      Right on, Ann!  My feelings about this almost completely
> duplicate yours.  The blindness esbablishment as well as the
> sighted world in computers, when they can't blackmail us into
> suffering with Windows for employment purposes, try the carrot
> as well as the stick.  They offer us things we would very much
> love to have, such as a wider variety of reading material, if
> and only if ...
>
>      Janina, perhaps it might we worthwhile to compile a list
> of names of people who would use the book sharing service if
> the site and files were made linux and lynx accessible.   There
> may well be enough of us to put pressure on them big time.  If
> you make that list please add my name, resident of New York,
> NY, under Ann's.
>
>      Pat Logan
> On Tue, 12 Mar 2002, Ann Parsons wrote:
>
> > Hi Janina,
> >
> > Well, I found that it was virtually impossible to get at the site
> > during the beta.  I found that the application was only a long, long,
> > long, long, long agreement with several check boxes, but there was no
> > place to add an address, a name of anything else!  I haven't been back
> > there because it says on the top of the page that "this site is for
> > users of MSIE5.5 or above."  I just didn't bother.  I figured that
> > there was nothing I could do.  My Windows computer has been down for
> > two months, and I want so much to download books and to join, but what
> > can I do?  I have some books here I've scanned that I might
> > conceivably want to upload there, but nobody deigned to say anything
> > to me.  I'm on the beta list.  Nobody bothered to talk to me at all,
> > find out *why* I was unhappy with the site, or what I was
> > experiencing.  In fact, they just about ignored me cuz I use Linux.
> > It was made very, very, very, very, very, very clear that I was just
> > chopped liver and so I haven't bothered to even try to access the site
> > in Lynx.  I figured that it would be virtually impossible, so I've
> > been waiting for my Windows machine to get fixed, and now I discover I
> > have to wait more time!
> >
> > Janina, I hate Windows, but I want to join Bookshare`!  I want to
> > download books!  It won't do me any good to go there anyway in Lynx
> > cuz the unpack tool is for Windows, or didn't you realize that?  Sure
> > they're looking for somebody to write their program for Linux because
> > they've finally awakened to the fact that maybe somebody ought to pay
> > attention to another OS.  But what's the good of writing an unpack
> > tool for Linux when the site is "only for MSIE5.5 or above"?  I mean
> > if you're going to be *that* exclusive, what's the good, Janina?  What
> > about people who only have MSIE4 or Netscape or PW-Webspeak or IBM web
> > reader?  What about those peopoe, huh?  Do they know how snooty and
> > exclusive that phrase sounds?  Do they realize how it looks?  Haven't
> > we had enough of being shut out?
> >
> > If my Windows machine isn't up yet, and if I only have Linux, then
> > downloading an unpack tool for Windows isn't going to do me a hoot in
> > Hell.  Maybe that's why everybody has been ignoring me, eh?  I'm
> > sorry, Janina, but you asked me, and I'm telling you.  I feel shut
> > out, ignored, and thrown away.  The site is for "MSIE5.5 or later", it
> > says so right on the page, damn it!!!  It's supposed to be for the
> > blind.  It's supposed to be so that we can access books!  It's
> > supposed to be a tool to help us, and it's just another fanthom,
> > supposedly accessible but only if you have the right equipment.
> > <sigh>  What about people who use W3, what about them?  What about
> > people who have shell accounts, there are some, you know.  They're
> > limited to Lynx.  I'm sorry, Janina, but I'm disgusted and feeling
> > angry and really quite upset.  I didn't realize how upset I was till
> > you asked me how I was doing.
> >
> > Ann P.
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

I did that very thing, Mr. Petersen, and I believe that we may be
getting somewhere.  If my complaints are too loud for you, I'm sorry.
You see, I happen to believe strongly that no matter what one does to
aid persons with disabilities, the primary directive should be
Universal Access.  This means that when you start a project, you build
it so that it is accessible to all from the get-go, not a project that
needs to be retro-fitted.  Retro-fitting has been the way of
making materials, buildings, transportation and everything else
accessible.  It's time it stopped, frankly, stopped now!  We have to
think in terms of *all* users, not just the fortunate few, all users,
that includes every single person who might want to access whatever
the heck it is.  

If I am disappointed in something, I say so.  I believe that Bookshare
is making an effort to remedy the problem, and having the discussion
on here is right because it involves access to something via Linux.
<smile>  What better place to find programmers for Linux than on a
Linux list?  What better place to find programmers for making
something accessible than on a list devoted to accessibility of the
Linux system to persons who are blind?  

Ann P.

P.S.,  It may interest you to know that I thought Janina was writing
to me privately last night.  That's how come I was so frank in my
post.  <smile>  Seems my mail blooper started a whopping discussion,
though.  So, I have continued it. 

A.P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

list noise (was Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster)

[Chris Peterson]

Is this a list about linux or a list about speakup?  If its a list about
Linux, I don't need it.  I was spacifically interested in learning about
speakup, and the other projects associated with it.  I thought this was the
place to go for that.

I thought this, because there are a number of other lists where this
discussion might be appropriate.  I've pasted in some info about them incase
you weren't aware of them.
The BLINUX Mailing Lists
blinux-announce
Topic: announcements dealing with blind support under Linux (new software,
conferences etc.).
Moderated list, no noise.
Low number of posts.
If you want to stay in contact with BLINUX.
blinux-develop
Topic: software development enabling the Linux user who is blind.

This might be a place to go for a linux developer to write an unpack util
for bookshare.

Unmoderated list, currently really low traffic...

blinux-list
Topic: themes which contain the words Linux. and blind. For details please
read the

This might be a good place for this discussion.

blinux-FAQ.
Off topic: general Linux questions.
Unmoderated list, high traffic - high noise.
Postings to blinux-announce will be posted here.

This might also be a good place for this discussion.

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, but there are a lot of us who
receive hundreds, if not thousands, of e-mails every day and we need to be
able to go through them quickly.  Thats why there isn't just a general
mailing list that the entire world is on.  It would be kaos.  This is
becoming kaos and I'm sure its not something Kirk has time to deal with and
nobody is saying anything about it except me.

Also, addressing the issue of starting a project with everybody in mind, let
me tell you right now that it isn't possible.  For one thing, to please
everybody would mean that you'd never get off-the-ground.  What about those
people who are using some other Unix-like OS such as FreeBSD?  What about
those using dos?  Or a Braille N Speak?  Or an apple II?  Or a Makintosh?
Or a Comodor 64?  Or an Amiga?  Or an Atari?  How about a Vax? (I do that at
school once in a while)...  The list goes on for ever and ever.  Just
because you're vocal about Linux doesn't mean that it should be a priority.
The fact is, though, that it appears to be a priority.  So, why are you
wining about it?  They're not trying to retrofit as you're referring to it.
And, I get the distinct impression that you have very little knowledge of
software development or web design.

Btw, I've gone and read your web page and what I see there seems to varify
this.  This isn't a big deal and it doesn't mean that you don't have
valuable input.  However, it does mean that there are things about the
process that you don't fully understand.  I'm trying to help to explain some
of them to you so you might be able to restructure your input to be of help
to those in charge of the project.

This isn't the same as adding a wheelchair ramp to a building that wasn't
designed to have one.  Personally, I know how that can fail badly.  Writing
software to support another OS isn't the same thing at all.  It could be,
though, if someone without the right experience tried to do it.  You might
get something like Word Perfect for Linux was.  That would be bad...  I
think that is probably why they're trying to be careful about getting it
done right.

Regarding the web site.  Your assuming that the web site was inaccessible
because it had a message about IE 5.5 was the wrong approach.  It would've
been more helpful to ignore that message and determine if the site was
really accessible, or not.  Then you could go to the webmaster and explain
why that message was wrong, or what you found to be broken so that he/she
could fix the problem.  I see, though, that you didn't even try before you
complained.  Why should someone give you any credibility if you don't have
any evidence to support your case?

I see that you're a teacher.  What is needed, here, is for you to teach
those involved how to make things better.  Just complaining with no
direction is not helpful to them.  It would be like a student constantly
saying "I don't get it", without explaining what they don't understand.  You
have to go through it over and over again, trying to figure out how to
explain it in a way that your student will understand.  This is frustrating
for you and for the student.  In the sam way, this discussion is frustrating
to me, and to the rest of the list that hasn't participated in it.

So far, I've counted four participants in this thread.  Since I know there
are more than four people on the list, I suggest that the discussion might
not be appropriate here.  Still, I am not a moderator and have no authority
to make you move.  Its just a suggestion.

Now, let me explain some things about myself that may give me some
particular credibility, or not...  I am a college student.  I've spent a
great deal of time teaching myself how to learn.  For me, this means
learning to ask questions in a way that clearly explains how to teach a
sighted professor how to teach me.

>From that statement, you may deduce that I am blind.  You would be right.  I
can't see a darn thing, but this isn't a big deal.

I have also acted as a teacher.  Every summer I work with a program which
teaches students with visual impairments to use technology.  This usually
involves Windows, but has involved Braille N Speaks, and other such devices.
I hope, from what I learn here, to be able to teach my students that Linux
can be an alternative.

I'm a computer science major.  This means that I spend most of my life
programming.  Again, most of this is in Windows, but I'm slowly learning
about programming in Linux so I have the ability to work to make Linux as
usable as Windows for all our every-day tasks.  Its a slow process, because
Linux is different from anything I've delt with before.

I'm rambling.  If you've gotten this far in my message, you're probably sick
of me.  Well, I don't blame you.  I've spent a great deal of time on this
all because I want to see that this discussion, if it must take up space in
my inbox and I must exercise my delete finger on it, goes in a constructive
direction.  I think that is what we all want, so lets try to make that
happen.  Also, lets try to minimize the noise that others have to hear when
reading this list.  It makes me want to sumarily delete messages from this
list, or unsubscribe, which I don't believe is any more constructive than
the noise that clogs this list.

Chris Peterson
_______________
The Space Report
Internet and satellite delivered news from space.
Visit our web site at www.TheSpaceReport.com




----- Original Message -----
From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 12:52 PM
Subject: Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a
page from Napster


> Hi all,
>
> I did that very thing, Mr. Petersen, and I believe that we may be
> getting somewhere.  If my complaints are too loud for you, I'm sorry.
> You see, I happen to believe strongly that no matter what one does to
> aid persons with disabilities, the primary directive should be
> Universal Access.  This means that when you start a project, you build
> it so that it is accessible to all from the get-go, not a project that
> needs to be retro-fitted.  Retro-fitting has been the way of
> making materials, buildings, transportation and everything else
> accessible.  It's time it stopped, frankly, stopped now!  We have to
> think in terms of *all* users, not just the fortunate few, all users,
> that includes every single person who might want to access whatever
> the heck it is.
>
> If I am disappointed in something, I say so.  I believe that Bookshare
> is making an effort to remedy the problem, and having the discussion
> on here is right because it involves access to something via Linux.
> <smile>  What better place to find programmers for Linux than on a
> Linux list?  What better place to find programmers for making
> something accessible than on a list devoted to accessibility of the
> Linux system to persons who are blind?
>
> Ann P.
>
> P.S.,  It may interest you to know that I thought Janina was writing
> to me privately last night.  That's how come I was so frank in my
> post.  <smile>  Seems my mail blooper started a whopping discussion,
> though.  So, I have continued it.
>
> A.P.
>
> --
> Ann K. Parsons
> email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
JRRT
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: list noise (was Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster)

[Amanda Lee]

Hmmm so now we have a new List Moderator I daresay?



On Wed, 13 Mar 2002, Chris Peterson wrote:

> Is this a list about linux or a list about speakup?  If its a list about
> Linux, I don't need it.  I was spacifically interested in learning about
> speakup, and the other projects associated with it.  I thought this was the
> place to go for that.
>
> I thought this, because there are a number of other lists where this
> discussion might be appropriate.  I've pasted in some info about them incase
> you weren't aware of them.
> The BLINUX Mailing Lists
> blinux-announce
> Topic: announcements dealing with blind support under Linux (new software,
> conferences etc.).
> Moderated list, no noise.
> Low number of posts.
> If you want to stay in contact with BLINUX.
> blinux-develop
> Topic: software development enabling the Linux user who is blind.
>
> This might be a place to go for a linux developer to write an unpack util
> for bookshare.
>
> Unmoderated list, currently really low traffic...
>
> blinux-list
> Topic: themes which contain the words Linux. and blind. For details please
> read the
>
> This might be a good place for this discussion.
>
> blinux-FAQ.
> Off topic: general Linux questions.
> Unmoderated list, high traffic - high noise.
> Postings to blinux-announce will be posted here.
>
> This might also be a good place for this discussion.
>
> I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, but there are a lot of us who
> receive hundreds, if not thousands, of e-mails every day and we need to be
> able to go through them quickly.  Thats why there isn't just a general
> mailing list that the entire world is on.  It would be kaos.  This is
> becoming kaos and I'm sure its not something Kirk has time to deal with and
> nobody is saying anything about it except me.
>
> Also, addressing the issue of starting a project with everybody in mind, let
> me tell you right now that it isn't possible.  For one thing, to please
> everybody would mean that you'd never get off-the-ground.  What about those
> people who are using some other Unix-like OS such as FreeBSD?  What about
> those using dos?  Or a Braille N Speak?  Or an apple II?  Or a Makintosh?
> Or a Comodor 64?  Or an Amiga?  Or an Atari?  How about a Vax? (I do that at
> school once in a while)...  The list goes on for ever and ever.  Just
> because you're vocal about Linux doesn't mean that it should be a priority.
> The fact is, though, that it appears to be a priority.  So, why are you
> wining about it?  They're not trying to retrofit as you're referring to it.
> And, I get the distinct impression that you have very little knowledge of
> software development or web design.
>
> Btw, I've gone and read your web page and what I see there seems to varify
> this.  This isn't a big deal and it doesn't mean that you don't have
> valuable input.  However, it does mean that there are things about the
> process that you don't fully understand.  I'm trying to help to explain some
> of them to you so you might be able to restructure your input to be of help
> to those in charge of the project.
>
> This isn't the same as adding a wheelchair ramp to a building that wasn't
> designed to have one.  Personally, I know how that can fail badly.  Writing
> software to support another OS isn't the same thing at all.  It could be,
> though, if someone without the right experience tried to do it.  You might
> get something like Word Perfect for Linux was.  That would be bad...  I
> think that is probably why they're trying to be careful about getting it
> done right.
>
> Regarding the web site.  Your assuming that the web site was inaccessible
> because it had a message about IE 5.5 was the wrong approach.  It would've
> been more helpful to ignore that message and determine if the site was
> really accessible, or not.  Then you could go to the webmaster and explain
> why that message was wrong, or what you found to be broken so that he/she
> could fix the problem.  I see, though, that you didn't even try before you
> complained.  Why should someone give you any credibility if you don't have
> any evidence to support your case?
>
> I see that you're a teacher.  What is needed, here, is for you to teach
> those involved how to make things better.  Just complaining with no
> direction is not helpful to them.  It would be like a student constantly
> saying "I don't get it", without explaining what they don't understand.  You
> have to go through it over and over again, trying to figure out how to
> explain it in a way that your student will understand.  This is frustrating
> for you and for the student.  In the sam way, this discussion is frustrating
> to me, and to the rest of the list that hasn't participated in it.
>
> So far, I've counted four participants in this thread.  Since I know there
> are more than four people on the list, I suggest that the discussion might
> not be appropriate here.  Still, I am not a moderator and have no authority
> to make you move.  Its just a suggestion.
>
> Now, let me explain some things about myself that may give me some
> particular credibility, or not...  I am a college student.  I've spent a
> great deal of time teaching myself how to learn.  For me, this means
> learning to ask questions in a way that clearly explains how to teach a
> sighted professor how to teach me.
>
> >From that statement, you may deduce that I am blind.  You would be right.  I
> can't see a darn thing, but this isn't a big deal.
>
> I have also acted as a teacher.  Every summer I work with a program which
> teaches students with visual impairments to use technology.  This usually
> involves Windows, but has involved Braille N Speaks, and other such devices.
> I hope, from what I learn here, to be able to teach my students that Linux
> can be an alternative.
>
> I'm a computer science major.  This means that I spend most of my life
> programming.  Again, most of this is in Windows, but I'm slowly learning
> about programming in Linux so I have the ability to work to make Linux as
> usable as Windows for all our every-day tasks.  Its a slow process, because
> Linux is different from anything I've delt with before.
>
> I'm rambling.  If you've gotten this far in my message, you're probably sick
> of me.  Well, I don't blame you.  I've spent a great deal of time on this
> all because I want to see that this discussion, if it must take up space in
> my inbox and I must exercise my delete finger on it, goes in a constructive
> direction.  I think that is what we all want, so lets try to make that
> happen.  Also, lets try to minimize the noise that others have to hear when
> reading this list.  It makes me want to sumarily delete messages from this
> list, or unsubscribe, which I don't believe is any more constructive than
> the noise that clogs this list.
>
> Chris Peterson
> _______________
> The Space Report
> Internet and satellite delivered news from space.
> Visit our web site at www.TheSpaceReport.com
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 12:52 PM
> Subject: Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a
> page from Napster
>
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I did that very thing, Mr. Petersen, and I believe that we may be
> > getting somewhere.  If my complaints are too loud for you, I'm sorry.
> > You see, I happen to believe strongly that no matter what one does to
> > aid persons with disabilities, the primary directive should be
> > Universal Access.  This means that when you start a project, you build
> > it so that it is accessible to all from the get-go, not a project that
> > needs to be retro-fitted.  Retro-fitting has been the way of
> > making materials, buildings, transportation and everything else
> > accessible.  It's time it stopped, frankly, stopped now!  We have to
> > think in terms of *all* users, not just the fortunate few, all users,
> > that includes every single person who might want to access whatever
> > the heck it is.
> >
> > If I am disappointed in something, I say so.  I believe that Bookshare
> > is making an effort to remedy the problem, and having the discussion
> > on here is right because it involves access to something via Linux.
> > <smile>  What better place to find programmers for Linux than on a
> > Linux list?  What better place to find programmers for making
> > something accessible than on a list devoted to accessibility of the
> > Linux system to persons who are blind?
> >
> > Ann P.
> >
> > P.S.,  It may interest you to know that I thought Janina was writing
> > to me privately last night.  That's how come I was so frank in my
> > post.  <smile>  Seems my mail blooper started a whopping discussion,
> > though.  So, I have continued it.
> >
> > A.P.
> >
> > --
> > Ann K. Parsons
> > email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> > WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> > "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
> JRRT
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: list noise (was Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster)

[Chris Peterson]

Make yourself look foolish by not reading my messages before you reply to
them.

Chris Peterson
_______________
The Space Report
Internet and satellite delivered news from space.
Visit our web site at www.TheSpaceReport.com




----- Original Message -----
From: "Amanda Lee" <amanda@shellworld.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 2:13 PM
Subject: Re: list noise (was Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for
the blind borrows a page from Napster)


> Hmmm so now we have a new List Moderator I daresay?
>
>
>
> On Wed, 13 Mar 2002, Chris Peterson wrote:
>
> > Is this a list about linux or a list about speakup?  If its a list about
> > Linux, I don't need it.  I was spacifically interested in learning about
> > speakup, and the other projects associated with it.  I thought this was
the
> > place to go for that.
> >
> > I thought this, because there are a number of other lists where this
> > discussion might be appropriate.  I've pasted in some info about them
incase
> > you weren't aware of them.
> > The BLINUX Mailing Lists
> > blinux-announce
> > Topic: announcements dealing with blind support under Linux (new
software,
> > conferences etc.).
> > Moderated list, no noise.
> > Low number of posts.
> > If you want to stay in contact with BLINUX.
> > blinux-develop
> > Topic: software development enabling the Linux user who is blind.
> >
> > This might be a place to go for a linux developer to write an unpack
util
> > for bookshare.
> >
> > Unmoderated list, currently really low traffic...
> >
> > blinux-list
> > Topic: themes which contain the words Linux. and blind. For details
please
> > read the
> >
> > This might be a good place for this discussion.
> >
> > blinux-FAQ.
> > Off topic: general Linux questions.
> > Unmoderated list, high traffic - high noise.
> > Postings to blinux-announce will be posted here.
> >
> > This might also be a good place for this discussion.
> >
> > I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, but there are a lot of us who
> > receive hundreds, if not thousands, of e-mails every day and we need to
be
> > able to go through them quickly.  Thats why there isn't just a general
> > mailing list that the entire world is on.  It would be kaos.  This is
> > becoming kaos and I'm sure its not something Kirk has time to deal with
and
> > nobody is saying anything about it except me.
> >
> > Also, addressing the issue of starting a project with everybody in mind,
let
> > me tell you right now that it isn't possible.  For one thing, to please
> > everybody would mean that you'd never get off-the-ground.  What about
those
> > people who are using some other Unix-like OS such as FreeBSD?  What
about
> > those using dos?  Or a Braille N Speak?  Or an apple II?  Or a
Makintosh?
> > Or a Comodor 64?  Or an Amiga?  Or an Atari?  How about a Vax? (I do
that at
> > school once in a while)...  The list goes on for ever and ever.  Just
> > because you're vocal about Linux doesn't mean that it should be a
priority.
> > The fact is, though, that it appears to be a priority.  So, why are you
> > wining about it?  They're not trying to retrofit as you're referring to
it.
> > And, I get the distinct impression that you have very little knowledge
of
> > software development or web design.
> >
> > Btw, I've gone and read your web page and what I see there seems to
varify
> > this.  This isn't a big deal and it doesn't mean that you don't have
> > valuable input.  However, it does mean that there are things about the
> > process that you don't fully understand.  I'm trying to help to explain
some
> > of them to you so you might be able to restructure your input to be of
help
> > to those in charge of the project.
> >
> > This isn't the same as adding a wheelchair ramp to a building that
wasn't
> > designed to have one.  Personally, I know how that can fail badly.
Writing
> > software to support another OS isn't the same thing at all.  It could
be,
> > though, if someone without the right experience tried to do it.  You
might
> > get something like Word Perfect for Linux was.  That would be bad...  I
> > think that is probably why they're trying to be careful about getting it
> > done right.
> >
> > Regarding the web site.  Your assuming that the web site was
inaccessible
> > because it had a message about IE 5.5 was the wrong approach.  It
would've
> > been more helpful to ignore that message and determine if the site was
> > really accessible, or not.  Then you could go to the webmaster and
explain
> > why that message was wrong, or what you found to be broken so that
he/she
> > could fix the problem.  I see, though, that you didn't even try before
you
> > complained.  Why should someone give you any credibility if you don't
have
> > any evidence to support your case?
> >
> > I see that you're a teacher.  What is needed, here, is for you to teach
> > those involved how to make things better.  Just complaining with no
> > direction is not helpful to them.  It would be like a student constantly
> > saying "I don't get it", without explaining what they don't understand.
You
> > have to go through it over and over again, trying to figure out how to
> > explain it in a way that your student will understand.  This is
frustrating
> > for you and for the student.  In the sam way, this discussion is
frustrating
> > to me, and to the rest of the list that hasn't participated in it.
> >
> > So far, I've counted four participants in this thread.  Since I know
there
> > are more than four people on the list, I suggest that the discussion
might
> > not be appropriate here.  Still, I am not a moderator and have no
authority
> > to make you move.  Its just a suggestion.
> >
> > Now, let me explain some things about myself that may give me some
> > particular credibility, or not...  I am a college student.  I've spent a
> > great deal of time teaching myself how to learn.  For me, this means
> > learning to ask questions in a way that clearly explains how to teach a
> > sighted professor how to teach me.
> >
> > >From that statement, you may deduce that I am blind.  You would be
right.  I
> > can't see a darn thing, but this isn't a big deal.
> >
> > I have also acted as a teacher.  Every summer I work with a program
which
> > teaches students with visual impairments to use technology.  This
usually
> > involves Windows, but has involved Braille N Speaks, and other such
devices.
> > I hope, from what I learn here, to be able to teach my students that
Linux
> > can be an alternative.
> >
> > I'm a computer science major.  This means that I spend most of my life
> > programming.  Again, most of this is in Windows, but I'm slowly learning
> > about programming in Linux so I have the ability to work to make Linux
as
> > usable as Windows for all our every-day tasks.  Its a slow process,
because
> > Linux is different from anything I've delt with before.
> >
> > I'm rambling.  If you've gotten this far in my message, you're probably
sick
> > of me.  Well, I don't blame you.  I've spent a great deal of time on
this
> > all because I want to see that this discussion, if it must take up space
in
> > my inbox and I must exercise my delete finger on it, goes in a
constructive
> > direction.  I think that is what we all want, so lets try to make that
> > happen.  Also, lets try to minimize the noise that others have to hear
when
> > reading this list.  It makes me want to sumarily delete messages from
this
> > list, or unsubscribe, which I don't believe is any more constructive
than
> > the noise that clogs this list.
> >
> > Chris Peterson
> > _______________
> > The Space Report
> > Internet and satellite delivered news from space.
> > Visit our web site at www.TheSpaceReport.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 12:52 PM
> > Subject: Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows
a
> > page from Napster
> >
> >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > I did that very thing, Mr. Petersen, and I believe that we may be
> > > getting somewhere.  If my complaints are too loud for you, I'm sorry.
> > > You see, I happen to believe strongly that no matter what one does to
> > > aid persons with disabilities, the primary directive should be
> > > Universal Access.  This means that when you start a project, you build
> > > it so that it is accessible to all from the get-go, not a project that
> > > needs to be retro-fitted.  Retro-fitting has been the way of
> > > making materials, buildings, transportation and everything else
> > > accessible.  It's time it stopped, frankly, stopped now!  We have to
> > > think in terms of *all* users, not just the fortunate few, all users,
> > > that includes every single person who might want to access whatever
> > > the heck it is.
> > >
> > > If I am disappointed in something, I say so.  I believe that Bookshare
> > > is making an effort to remedy the problem, and having the discussion
> > > on here is right because it involves access to something via Linux.
> > > <smile>  What better place to find programmers for Linux than on a
> > > Linux list?  What better place to find programmers for making
> > > something accessible than on a list devoted to accessibility of the
> > > Linux system to persons who are blind?
> > >
> > > Ann P.
> > >
> > > P.S.,  It may interest you to know that I thought Janina was writing
> > > to me privately last night.  That's how come I was so frank in my
> > > post.  <smile>  Seems my mail blooper started a whopping discussion,
> > > though.  So, I have continued it.
> > >
> > > A.P.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Ann K. Parsons
> > > email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> > > WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> > > "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are
lost."
> > JRRT
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: list noise (was Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster)

[Gregory Nowak]

Ok, I just had to reply. As far as I know, (and I humbley stand to be corrected by Kirk R.), this is a list for speakup, gnu/linux, and anything else relivent threads lead to (just like the reflector according to the info about it on the speakup site).
I'll get on it one of these days when I have more time to find out for myself if the site is correct (smile).
Greg


On Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 02:02:15PM -0600, Chris Peterson wrote:
> Is this a list about linux or a list about speakup?  If its a list about
> Linux, I don't need it.  I was spacifically interested in learning about
> speakup, and the other projects associated with it.  I thought this was the
> place to go for that.
> 
> I thought this, because there are a number of other lists where this
> discussion might be appropriate.  I've pasted in some info about them incase
> you weren't aware of them.
> The BLINUX Mailing Lists
> blinux-announce
> Topic: announcements dealing with blind support under Linux (new software,
> conferences etc.).
> Moderated list, no noise.
> Low number of posts.
> If you want to stay in contact with BLINUX.
> blinux-develop
> Topic: software development enabling the Linux user who is blind.
> 
> This might be a place to go for a linux developer to write an unpack util
> for bookshare.
> 
> Unmoderated list, currently really low traffic...
> 
> blinux-list
> Topic: themes which contain the words Linux. and blind. For details please
> read the
> 
> This might be a good place for this discussion.
> 
> blinux-FAQ.
> Off topic: general Linux questions.
> Unmoderated list, high traffic - high noise.
> Postings to blinux-announce will be posted here.
> 
> This might also be a good place for this discussion.
> 
> I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, but there are a lot of us who
> receive hundreds, if not thousands, of e-mails every day and we need to be
> able to go through them quickly.  Thats why there isn't just a general
> mailing list that the entire world is on.  It would be kaos.  This is
> becoming kaos and I'm sure its not something Kirk has time to deal with and
> nobody is saying anything about it except me.
> 
> Also, addressing the issue of starting a project with everybody in mind, let
> me tell you right now that it isn't possible.  For one thing, to please
> everybody would mean that you'd never get off-the-ground.  What about those
> people who are using some other Unix-like OS such as FreeBSD?  What about
> those using dos?  Or a Braille N Speak?  Or an apple II?  Or a Makintosh?
> Or a Comodor 64?  Or an Amiga?  Or an Atari?  How about a Vax? (I do that at
> school once in a while)...  The list goes on for ever and ever.  Just
> because you're vocal about Linux doesn't mean that it should be a priority.
> The fact is, though, that it appears to be a priority.  So, why are you
> wining about it?  They're not trying to retrofit as you're referring to it.
> And, I get the distinct impression that you have very little knowledge of
> software development or web design.
> 
> Btw, I've gone and read your web page and what I see there seems to varify
> this.  This isn't a big deal and it doesn't mean that you don't have
> valuable input.  However, it does mean that there are things about the
> process that you don't fully understand.  I'm trying to help to explain some
> of them to you so you might be able to restructure your input to be of help
> to those in charge of the project.
> 
> This isn't the same as adding a wheelchair ramp to a building that wasn't
> designed to have one.  Personally, I know how that can fail badly.  Writing
> software to support another OS isn't the same thing at all.  It could be,
> though, if someone without the right experience tried to do it.  You might
> get something like Word Perfect for Linux was.  That would be bad...  I
> think that is probably why they're trying to be careful about getting it
> done right.
> 
> Regarding the web site.  Your assuming that the web site was inaccessible
> because it had a message about IE 5.5 was the wrong approach.  It would've
> been more helpful to ignore that message and determine if the site was
> really accessible, or not.  Then you could go to the webmaster and explain
> why that message was wrong, or what you found to be broken so that he/she
> could fix the problem.  I see, though, that you didn't even try before you
> complained.  Why should someone give you any credibility if you don't have
> any evidence to support your case?
> 
> I see that you're a teacher.  What is needed, here, is for you to teach
> those involved how to make things better.  Just complaining with no
> direction is not helpful to them.  It would be like a student constantly
> saying "I don't get it", without explaining what they don't understand.  You
> have to go through it over and over again, trying to figure out how to
> explain it in a way that your student will understand.  This is frustrating
> for you and for the student.  In the sam way, this discussion is frustrating
> to me, and to the rest of the list that hasn't participated in it.
> 
> So far, I've counted four participants in this thread.  Since I know there
> are more than four people on the list, I suggest that the discussion might
> not be appropriate here.  Still, I am not a moderator and have no authority
> to make you move.  Its just a suggestion.
> 
> Now, let me explain some things about myself that may give me some
> particular credibility, or not...  I am a college student.  I've spent a
> great deal of time teaching myself how to learn.  For me, this means
> learning to ask questions in a way that clearly explains how to teach a
> siteed professor how to teach me.
> 
> >From that statement, you may deduce that I am blind.  You would be right.  I
> can't see a darn thing, but this isn't a big deal.
> 
> I have also acted as a teacher.  Every summer I work with a program which
> teaches students with visual impairments to use technology.  This usually
> involves Windows, but has involved Braille N Speaks, and other such devices.
> I hope, from what I learn here, to be able to teach my students that Linux
> can be an alternative.
> 
> I'm a computer science major.  This means that I spend most of my life
> programming.  Again, most of this is in Windows, but I'm slowly learning
> about programming in Linux so I have the ability to work to make Linux as
> usable as Windows for all our every-day tasks.  Its a slow process, because
> Linux is different from anything I've delt with before.
> 
> I'm rambling.  If you've gotten this far in my message, you're probably sick
> of me.  Well, I don't blame you.  I've spent a great deal of time on this
> all because I want to see that this discussion, if it must take up space in
> my inbox and I must exercise my delete finger on it, goes in a constructive
> direction.  I think that is what we all want, so lets try to make that
> happen.  Also, lets try to minimize the noise that others have to hear when
> reading this list.  It makes me want to sumarily delete messages from this
> list, or unsubscribe, which I don't believe is any more constructive than
> the noise that clogs this list.
> 
> Chris Peterson
> _______________
> The Space Report
> Internet and satellite delivered news from space.
> Visit our web site at www.TheSpaceReport.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 12:52 PM
> Subject: Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a
> page from Napster
> 
> 
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I did that very thing, Mr. Petersen, and I believe that we may be
> > getting somewhere.  If my complaints are too loud for you, I'm sorry.
> > You see, I happen to believe strongly that no matter what one does to
> > aid persons with disabilities, the primary directive should be
> > Universal Access.  This means that when you start a project, you build
> > it so that it is accessible to all from the get-go, not a project that
> > needs to be retro-fitted.  Retro-fitting has been the way of
> > making materials, buildings, transportation and everything else
> > accessible.  It's time it stopped, frankly, stopped now!  We have to
> > think in terms of *all* users, not just the fortunate few, all users,
> > that includes every single person who might want to access whatever
> > the heck it is.
> >
> > If I am disappointed in something, I say so.  I believe that Bookshare
> > is making an effort to remedy the problem, and having the discussion
> > on here is right because it involves access to something via Linux.
> > <smile>  What better place to find programmers for Linux than on a
> > Linux list?  What better place to find programmers for making
> > something accessible than on a list devoted to accessibility of the
> > Linux system to persons who are blind?
> >
> > Ann P.
> >
> > P.S.,  It may interest you to know that I thought Janina was writing
> > to me privately last night.  That's how come I was so frank in my
> > post.  <smile>  Seems my mail blooper started a whopping discussion,
> > though.  So, I have continued it.
> >
> > A.P.
> >
> > --
> > Ann K. Parsons
> > email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> > WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> > "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
> JRRT
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Off List Re: list noise

[Keith Heltsley]

I for one, have enjoyed reading your rants on the speak up list. I have a
couple comments/questions.

for one, I figure that I don't dislike you since I read all your message, I
was actually more fascinated than angry or annoyed by your words.

I tend to agree with you. It happens probably more on the speak up list than
some of the other, non-technical, lists that I'm on. People tend to get off
the subject, make thread changes and not change the subject lines and so
forth. I end up deleting things when the focus is lost. Occasionally I will
actually look at a email with a subject that I have been deleting to see how
much the topic has changed from it's original. then keep deleting it because
it has degraded even more.

I don't participate right now because I don't currently run a Linux box. I'm
stuck in Windows-land until I can get the updated RedHat 7.2 disks. Someone
is supposed to be sending me a copy. I'm sure I'll start up some threads
once I get it installed.

One final question. You mentioned using Braille and Speak. From your
statement it seemed that you imply that you use it on the web. Is that
possible? Did you mean the M20 or M40? Maybe you meant that you used the BNS
as aexternal synthesizer?

I ask all those things because I may be getting one soon. I had a brief
class to familiarize myself with its basic operation but I'd like to hear
what you can tell me about using one.


from
Keith H.
btbgkh@yahoo.com

Everyone has a photographic memory. Some just don't have film.

Re: Off List Re: list noise

[Gregory Nowak]

Could you please state who you meant the below message for? Somehow I get the feeling  that I seem to be the only one here in a while who posted about using the bns, thus I have to conclude that you were reffering to me. No, I don't use my bns 640 and 2k for the web, because I don't happen to have a shell account. Although, I have used it with vterm when I wanted to see what it was like to use it as a terminal for my gnu/linux box.
Greg


On Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 05:35:21PM -0800, Keith Heltsley wrote:
> I for one, have enjoyed reading your rants on the speak up list. I have a
> couple comments/questions.
> 
> for one, I figure that I don't dislike you since I read all your message, I
> was actually more fascinated than angry or annoyed by your words.
> 
> I tend to agree with you. It happens probably more on the speak up list than
> some of the other, non-technical, lists that I'm on. People tend to get off
> the subject, make thread changes and not change the subject lines and so
> forth. I end up deleting things when the focus is lost. Occasionally I will
> actually look at a email with a subject that I have been deleting to see how
> much the topic has changed from it's original. then keep deleting it because
> it has degraded even more.
> 
> I don't participate right now because I don't currently run a Linux box. I'm
> stuck in Windows-land until I can get the updated RedHat 7.2 disks. Someone
> is supposed to be sending me a copy. I'm sure I'll start up some threads
> once I get it installed.
> 
> One final question. You mentioned using Braille and Speak. From your
> statement it seemed that you imply that you use it on the web. Is that
> possible? Did you mean the M20 or M40? Maybe you meant that you used the BNS
> as aexternal synthesizer?
> 
> I ask all those things because I may be getting one soon. I had a brief
> class to familiarize myself with its basic operation but I'd like to hear
> what you can tell me about using one.
> 
> 
> from
> Keith H.
> btbgkh@yahoo.com
> 
> Everyone has a photographic memory. Some just don't have film.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Off List Re: list noise

[Keith Heltsley]

--- You Wrote ---
Could you please state who you meant the below message for? Somehow I get
<snip>
, I don't use my bns
640 and 2k for the web, because I don't happen to have a shell account.
<snip>

The message was meant for Chris Peterson. He wrote, way down toward the end
of his message about teaching folks on it's usage.

Sorry again about the confusion, but if I would have replied correctly the
message would have went to the right person to begin with.

from
Keith H.

OK, so what's the speed of dark?

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Georgina]

Hi

Well, I'm glad for this discussion for a number of reasons.  Primarily
because I can now access my account with the Open University because a
lister responded that Debian users need to apt-get install lynx-ssl.

Perhaps the list owner has commented upon the appropriateness of the
discussion or not but I'd be suprised if such gags are supported.

Gena



>Hi all,
>
>I did that very thing, Mr. Petersen, and I believe that we may be
>getting somewhere.  If my complaints are too loud for you, I'm sorry.
>You see, I happen to believe strongly that no matter what one does to
>aid persons with disabilities, the primary directive should be
>Universal Access.  This means that when you start a project, you build
>it so that it is accessible to all from the get-go, not a project that
>needs to be retro-fitted.  Retro-fitting has been the way of
>making materials, buildings, transportation and everything else
>accessible.  It's time it stopped, frankly, stopped now!  We have to
>think in terms of *all* users, not just the fortunate few, all users,
>that includes every single person who might want to access whatever
>the heck it is.  
>
>If I am disappointed in something, I say so.  I believe that Bookshare
>is making an effort to remedy the problem, and having the discussion
>on here is right because it involves access to something via Linux.
><smile>  What better place to find programmers for Linux than on a
>Linux list?  What better place to find programmers for making
>something accessible than on a list devoted to accessibility of the
>Linux system to persons who are blind?  
>
>Ann P.
>
>P.S.,  It may interest you to know that I thought Janina was writing
>to me privately last night.  That's how come I was so frank in my
>post.  <smile>  Seems my mail blooper started a whopping discussion,
>though.  So, I have continued it. 
>
>A.P.
>
>-- 
>			Ann K. Parsons  
>email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
>WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
>"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Amanda Lee]

Hi folks!

In retrospect, everything afore-mentioned in this thread is most definitely
applicable to Speakup since the root purpose was to ascertain that Speakup
plus lynx plus Linux which is the Operating System supporting all of the
items above are able to work together with the application itself which is
Bookshare.

As  for the ensuing tangential thread! know what! it's still aplicable
because the Access and Usability  issues discussed herein are also most
definitely related.

There are many aspects which involve Speakup which naturally emerge because
all parties involved in this effort are essentially in their own unique
universe.  There is really no other forum quite like this one whereby we may
work together as a community comprised of naturally evolving teams to
resolve the unique issues of Speakup.  This List is not for the casual user
nor for the user who desires a tightly controled environment.  For such
constraints would severely stiffal the positive outcomes which naturally
emerge from our candid and open interactions.

Amanda Lee

Alexandria, VA



----- Original Message -----
From: "Georgina" <gena@gena-j.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 7:09 PM
Subject: Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a
page from Napster


Hi

Well, I'm glad for this discussion for a number of reasons.  Primarily
because I can now access my account with the Open University because a
lister responded that Debian users need to apt-get install lynx-ssl.

Perhaps the list owner has commented upon the appropriateness of the
discussion or not but I'd be suprised if such gags are supported.

Gena



>Hi all,
>
>I did that very thing, Mr. Petersen, and I believe that we may be
>getting somewhere.  If my complaints are too loud for you, I'm sorry.
>You see, I happen to believe strongly that no matter what one does to
>aid persons with disabilities, the primary directive should be
>Universal Access.  This means that when you start a project, you build
>it so that it is accessible to all from the get-go, not a project that
>needs to be retro-fitted.  Retro-fitting has been the way of
>making materials, buildings, transportation and everything else
>accessible.  It's time it stopped, frankly, stopped now!  We have to
>think in terms of *all* users, not just the fortunate few, all users,
>that includes every single person who might want to access whatever
>the heck it is.
>
>If I am disappointed in something, I say so.  I believe that Bookshare
>is making an effort to remedy the problem, and having the discussion
>on here is right because it involves access to something via Linux.
><smile>  What better place to find programmers for Linux than on a
>Linux list?  What better place to find programmers for making
>something accessible than on a list devoted to accessibility of the
>Linux system to persons who are blind?
>
>Ann P.
>
>P.S.,  It may interest you to know that I thought Janina was writing
>to me privately last night.  That's how come I was so frank in my
>post.  <smile>  Seems my mail blooper started a whopping discussion,
>though.  So, I have continued it.
>
>A.P.
>
>--
> Ann K. Parsons
>email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
>WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
>"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
JRRT
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Janina Sajka]

Go, Amanda. You keep writing like this, and I'll start worrying about my 
job! <grin>

On Wed, 13 Mar 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:

> Hi folks!
> 
> In retrospect, everything afore-mentioned in this thread is most definitely
> applicable to Speakup since the root purpose was to ascertain that Speakup
> plus lynx plus Linux which is the Operating System supporting all of the
> items above are able to work together with the application itself which is
> Bookshare.
> 
> As  for the ensuing tangential thread! know what! it's still aplicable
> because the Access and Usability  issues discussed herein are also most
> definitely related.
> 
> There are many aspects which involve Speakup which naturally emerge because
> all parties involved in this effort are essentially in their own unique
> universe.  There is really no other forum quite like this one whereby we may
> work together as a community comprised of naturally evolving teams to
> resolve the unique issues of Speakup.  This List is not for the casual user
> nor for the user who desires a tightly controled environment.  For such
> constraints would severely stiffal the positive outcomes which naturally
> emerge from our candid and open interactions.
> 
> Amanda Lee
> 
> Alexandria, VA
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Georgina" <gena@gena-j.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 7:09 PM
> Subject: Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a
> page from Napster
> 
> 
> Hi
> 
> Well, I'm glad for this discussion for a number of reasons.  Primarily
> because I can now access my account with the Open University because a
> lister responded that Debian users need to apt-get install lynx-ssl.
> 
> Perhaps the list owner has commented upon the appropriateness of the
> discussion or not but I'd be suprised if such gags are supported.
> 
> Gena
> 
> 
> 
> >Hi all,
> >
> >I did that very thing, Mr. Petersen, and I believe that we may be
> >getting somewhere.  If my complaints are too loud for you, I'm sorry.
> >You see, I happen to believe strongly that no matter what one does to
> >aid persons with disabilities, the primary directive should be
> >Universal Access.  This means that when you start a project, you build
> >it so that it is accessible to all from the get-go, not a project that
> >needs to be retro-fitted.  Retro-fitting has been the way of
> >making materials, buildings, transportation and everything else
> >accessible.  It's time it stopped, frankly, stopped now!  We have to
> >think in terms of *all* users, not just the fortunate few, all users,
> >that includes every single person who might want to access whatever
> >the heck it is.
> >
> >If I am disappointed in something, I say so.  I believe that Bookshare
> >is making an effort to remedy the problem, and having the discussion
> >on here is right because it involves access to something via Linux.
> ><smile>  What better place to find programmers for Linux than on a
> >Linux list?  What better place to find programmers for making
> >something accessible than on a list devoted to accessibility of the
> >Linux system to persons who are blind?
> >
> >Ann P.
> >
> >P.S.,  It may interest you to know that I thought Janina was writing
> >to me privately last night.  That's how come I was so frank in my
> >post.  <smile>  Seems my mail blooper started a whopping discussion,
> >though.  So, I have continued it.
> >
> >A.P.
> >
> >--
> > Ann K. Parsons
> >email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> >WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> >"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
> JRRT
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Amanda Lee]

Naa, doubt you'll ever have to worry about the great job you do for
Speakup and for AFB.

On the other hand, some of us are also strong Advocates for universal
access and other purposes.  So just allow us to preech whenever we get the
notion to get preechy <smile!>


Amanda Lee

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Amanda Lee]

Man you just don't get it! what are you doing hanging onto a Linux list
for if you're  saying this kind of nonsense?

O' I see! they didn't teach you in WindBlows for the blinkie how to find
the Delete key cuz being a WindBlows supporter, you sure don't want to
think about where it is!






On Wed, 13 Mar 2002, Chris Peterson wrote:

> Oh my God!  You people amaze me over and over again.
>
> They don't need pressure on them to make the system accessible to Linux
> users.  They just need a programmer with the experience to write the
> software for them.  This may surprise you, but there are many more Windows
> users than Linux users and programming for Windows and Linux are different
> enough so that it isn't necessarily an easy proposition to write a Linux
> unpack utility with their current programmers.
>
> Not to mention that this is a nonproffit organization that is simply trying
> to organize us to do a good thing and, rather than being happy about it and
> trying to provide constructive suggestions, you want to gang up on them all
> at once.  Wow!  They should shut down even before they start because they
> can't please everyone on the first day.  I don't believe it!
>
> So what would be the best way to handle this?  Why not get intouch with
> anyone you know who has experience programming in Linux and ask them to
> volunteer to help out with a linux version of the unpack utility.
>
> Also, rather than saying, "the web site is not accessible", before you even
> tried to use it, why not go through the web site and make a list of things
> you'd change to make it easier to use with Lynx.  Then send that to them and
> they'll have something to work with.
>
> Finally, if you don't have anything constructive to say, keep your mouth
> shut and let them work the bugs out.  They're not Microsoft, and they don't
> need us ganging up on them.  They could be spending their time on
> money-making ventures, but they're trying to put together a system that'll
> help us out.  I, for one, aplaud their efforts and want to see them succeed.
> I imagine I'll also contribute a book from time to time.
>
> Now, could you all take this off the list as it has nothing to do with
> speakup?  Thanks!
>
> Chris Peterson
> _______________
> The Space Report
> Internet and satellite delivered news from space.
> Visit our web site at www.TheSpaceReport.com
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Patricia Logan" <plogan@dorsai.org>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 7:27 AM
> Subject: Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a
> page from Napster
>
>
> >      Right on, Ann!  My feelings about this almost completely
> > duplicate yours.  The blindness esbablishment as well as the
> > sighted world in computers, when they can't blackmail us into
> > suffering with Windows for employment purposes, try the carrot
> > as well as the stick.  They offer us things we would very much
> > love to have, such as a wider variety of reading material, if
> > and only if ...
> >
> >      Janina, perhaps it might we worthwhile to compile a list
> > of names of people who would use the book sharing service if
> > the site and files were made linux and lynx accessible.   There
> > may well be enough of us to put pressure on them big time.  If
> > you make that list please add my name, resident of New York,
> > NY, under Ann's.
> >
> >      Pat Logan
> > On Tue, 12 Mar 2002, Ann Parsons wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Janina,
> > >
> > > Well, I found that it was virtually impossible to get at the site
> > > during the beta.  I found that the application was only a long, long,
> > > long, long, long agreement with several check boxes, but there was no
> > > place to add an address, a name of anything else!  I haven't been back
> > > there because it says on the top of the page that "this site is for
> > > users of MSIE5.5 or above."  I just didn't bother.  I figured that
> > > there was nothing I could do.  My Windows computer has been down for
> > > two months, and I want so much to download books and to join, but what
> > > can I do?  I have some books here I've scanned that I might
> > > conceivably want to upload there, but nobody deigned to say anything
> > > to me.  I'm on the beta list.  Nobody bothered to talk to me at all,
> > > find out *why* I was unhappy with the site, or what I was
> > > experiencing.  In fact, they just about ignored me cuz I use Linux.
> > > It was made very, very, very, very, very, very clear that I was just
> > > chopped liver and so I haven't bothered to even try to access the site
> > > in Lynx.  I figured that it would be virtually impossible, so I've
> > > been waiting for my Windows machine to get fixed, and now I discover I
> > > have to wait more time!
> > >
> > > Janina, I hate Windows, but I want to join Bookshare`!  I want to
> > > download books!  It won't do me any good to go there anyway in Lynx
> > > cuz the unpack tool is for Windows, or didn't you realize that?  Sure
> > > they're looking for somebody to write their program for Linux because
> > > they've finally awakened to the fact that maybe somebody ought to pay
> > > attention to another OS.  But what's the good of writing an unpack
> > > tool for Linux when the site is "only for MSIE5.5 or above"?  I mean
> > > if you're going to be *that* exclusive, what's the good, Janina?  What
> > > about people who only have MSIE4 or Netscape or PW-Webspeak or IBM web
> > > reader?  What about those peopoe, huh?  Do they know how snooty and
> > > exclusive that phrase sounds?  Do they realize how it looks?  Haven't
> > > we had enough of being shut out?
> > >
> > > If my Windows machine isn't up yet, and if I only have Linux, then
> > > downloading an unpack tool for Windows isn't going to do me a hoot in
> > > Hell.  Maybe that's why everybody has been ignoring me, eh?  I'm
> > > sorry, Janina, but you asked me, and I'm telling you.  I feel shut
> > > out, ignored, and thrown away.  The site is for "MSIE5.5 or later", it
> > > says so right on the page, damn it!!!  It's supposed to be for the
> > > blind.  It's supposed to be so that we can access books!  It's
> > > supposed to be a tool to help us, and it's just another fanthom,
> > > supposedly accessible but only if you have the right equipment.
> > > <sigh>  What about people who use W3, what about them?  What about
> > > people who have shell accounts, there are some, you know.  They're
> > > limited to Lynx.  I'm sorry, Janina, but I'm disgusted and feeling
> > > angry and really quite upset.  I didn't realize how upset I was till
> > > you asked me how I was doing.
> > >
> > > Ann P.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[randy turner]

hahaha
man i am really cracking up so bad reading this!
you are just too much amanda! lol!
randy turner


On Wed, 13 Mar 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:

> Man you just don't get it! what are you doing hanging onto a Linux list
> for if you're  saying this kind of nonsense?
>
> O' I see! they didn't teach you in WindBlows for the blinkie how to find
> the Delete key cuz being a WindBlows supporter, you sure don't want to
> think about where it is!
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, 13 Mar 2002, Chris Peterson wrote:
>
> > Oh my God!  You people amaze me over and over again.
> >
> > They don't need pressure on them to make the system accessible to Linux
> > users.  They just need a programmer with the experience to write the
> > software for them.  This may surprise you, but there are many more Windows
> > users than Linux users and programming for Windows and Linux are different
> > enough so that it isn't necessarily an easy proposition to write a Linux
> > unpack utility with their current programmers.
> >
> > Not to mention that this is a nonproffit organization that is simply trying
> > to organize us to do a good thing and, rather than being happy about it and
> > trying to provide constructive suggestions, you want to gang up on them all
> > at once.  Wow!  They should shut down even before they start because they
> > can't please everyone on the first day.  I don't believe it!
> >
> > So what would be the best way to handle this?  Why not get intouch with
> > anyone you know who has experience programming in Linux and ask them to
> > volunteer to help out with a linux version of the unpack utility.
> >
> > Also, rather than saying, "the web site is not accessible", before you even
> > tried to use it, why not go through the web site and make a list of things
> > you'd change to make it easier to use with Lynx.  Then send that to them and
> > they'll have something to work with.
> >
> > Finally, if you don't have anything constructive to say, keep your mouth
> > shut and let them work the bugs out.  They're not Microsoft, and they don't
> > need us ganging up on them.  They could be spending their time on
> > money-making ventures, but they're trying to put together a system that'll
> > help us out.  I, for one, aplaud their efforts and want to see them succeed.
> > I imagine I'll also contribute a book from time to time.
> >
> > Now, could you all take this off the list as it has nothing to do with
> > speakup?  Thanks!
> >
> > Chris Peterson
> > _______________
> > The Space Report
> > Internet and satellite delivered news from space.
> > Visit our web site at www.TheSpaceReport.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Patricia Logan" <plogan@dorsai.org>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 7:27 AM
> > Subject: Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a
> > page from Napster
> >
> >
> > >      Right on, Ann!  My feelings about this almost completely
> > > duplicate yours.  The blindness esbablishment as well as the
> > > sighted world in computers, when they can't blackmail us into
> > > suffering with Windows for employment purposes, try the carrot
> > > as well as the stick.  They offer us things we would very much
> > > love to have, such as a wider variety of reading material, if
> > > and only if ...
> > >
> > >      Janina, perhaps it might we worthwhile to compile a list
> > > of names of people who would use the book sharing service if
> > > the site and files were made linux and lynx accessible.   There
> > > may well be enough of us to put pressure on them big time.  If
> > > you make that list please add my name, resident of New York,
> > > NY, under Ann's.
> > >
> > >      Pat Logan
> > > On Tue, 12 Mar 2002, Ann Parsons wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Janina,
> > > >
> > > > Well, I found that it was virtually impossible to get at the site
> > > > during the beta.  I found that the application was only a long, long,
> > > > long, long, long agreement with several check boxes, but there was no
> > > > place to add an address, a name of anything else!  I haven't been back
> > > > there because it says on the top of the page that "this site is for
> > > > users of MSIE5.5 or above."  I just didn't bother.  I figured that
> > > > there was nothing I could do.  My Windows computer has been down for
> > > > two months, and I want so much to download books and to join, but what
> > > > can I do?  I have some books here I've scanned that I might
> > > > conceivably want to upload there, but nobody deigned to say anything
> > > > to me.  I'm on the beta list.  Nobody bothered to talk to me at all,
> > > > find out *why* I was unhappy with the site, or what I was
> > > > experiencing.  In fact, they just about ignored me cuz I use Linux.
> > > > It was made very, very, very, very, very, very clear that I was just
> > > > chopped liver and so I haven't bothered to even try to access the site
> > > > in Lynx.  I figured that it would be virtually impossible, so I've
> > > > been waiting for my Windows machine to get fixed, and now I discover I
> > > > have to wait more time!
> > > >
> > > > Janina, I hate Windows, but I want to join Bookshare`!  I want to
> > > > download books!  It won't do me any good to go there anyway in Lynx
> > > > cuz the unpack tool is for Windows, or didn't you realize that?  Sure
> > > > they're looking for somebody to write their program for Linux because
> > > > they've finally awakened to the fact that maybe somebody ought to pay
> > > > attention to another OS.  But what's the good of writing an unpack
> > > > tool for Linux when the site is "only for MSIE5.5 or above"?  I mean
> > > > if you're going to be *that* exclusive, what's the good, Janina?  What
> > > > about people who only have MSIE4 or Netscape or PW-Webspeak or IBM web
> > > > reader?  What about those peopoe, huh?  Do they know how snooty and
> > > > exclusive that phrase sounds?  Do they realize how it looks?  Haven't
> > > > we had enough of being shut out?
> > > >
> > > > If my Windows machine isn't up yet, and if I only have Linux, then
> > > > downloading an unpack tool for Windows isn't going to do me a hoot in
> > > > Hell.  Maybe that's why everybody has been ignoring me, eh?  I'm
> > > > sorry, Janina, but you asked me, and I'm telling you.  I feel shut
> > > > out, ignored, and thrown away.  The site is for "MSIE5.5 or later", it
> > > > says so right on the page, damn it!!!  It's supposed to be for the
> > > > blind.  It's supposed to be so that we can access books!  It's
> > > > supposed to be a tool to help us, and it's just another fanthom,
> > > > supposedly accessible but only if you have the right equipment.
> > > > <sigh>  What about people who use W3, what about them?  What about
> > > > people who have shell accounts, there are some, you know.  They're
> > > > limited to Lynx.  I'm sorry, Janina, but I'm disgusted and feeling
> > > > angry and really quite upset.  I didn't realize how upset I was till
> > > > you asked me how I was doing.
> > > >
> > > > Ann P.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

Now, Amanda, if you continue in this vein I'm going to have to take
responsibility for corrupting you.  You gotta play nice, gal.  You
can't go actin' like this old bard.  You aren't near old enough yet.
Me, I'm one year away from being called up by AARP and so I can be as
eccentric as I want.  It's a privilege of age.     

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Ann Parsons]

Hi Pat,

I discovered I needed to upgrade my Lynx.  So I did that.  I managed
to log in, I think.  

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Amanda Lee]

Hmmm, I haven't tried using lynx to login and have accounts for bookshare
as member and as volunteer.

I can tell you that there are problems even with a windblows Screen Reader
with filling out the Basic Publish form so it ain't accessible to Linux
nor to Windblows.

Go figure!

A few of us chided them a bit this week on the bookshare list to go to a
Linux Server.

What did we get?

A bunch of duuhhhhhhhhhhh ! ! ! dead air! ! !

I think that Peter had one of his budies code up the pages and looks like
they don't know much about web Accessibility.

I agree that there's no reason why a site which promotes etext shouldn't
be at least accessible to all Platforms of personal computers.

I sure wish I could make it to CSUN cuz I'd be biting their heels!

Amanda Lee

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Janina Sajka]

Hi, Amanda:

I think the issues that have been identified as problems with the 
membership application on BookShare are OS independent. The verbiage could 
be simpler, and the edit fields better located  and provided with better 
prompts. It's just a so-so writing job, as was this paragraph! <grin>

BookShare is already running unix of some kind. I think it may be FreeBSD, 
but I'm not sure. I've already provided some security analysis to them, 
and I've advised them to move to mailman and leave Topica in the dust. Not 
that Topica is inaccessible. Only when you have to use the Topica web page 
to you get to groan through those endless navbars. Still, they could do 
this themselves nicely.

Other issues? Besides the unpacking tool for linux?
 On Wed, 13 Mar 2002, 
Amanda Lee wrote:

> Hmmm, I haven't tried using lynx to login and have accounts for bookshare
> as member and as volunteer.
> 
> I can tell you that there are problems even with a windblows Screen Reader
> with filling out the Basic Publish form so it ain't accessible to Linux
> nor to Windblows.
> 
> Go figure!
> 
> A few of us chided them a bit this week on the bookshare list to go to a
> Linux Server.
> 
> What did we get?
> 
> A bunch of duuhhhhhhhhhhh ! ! ! dead air! ! !
> 
> I think that Peter had one of his budies code up the pages and looks like
> they don't know much about web Accessibility.
> 
> I agree that there's no reason why a site which promotes etext shouldn't
> be at least accessible to all Platforms of personal computers.
> 
> I sure wish I could make it to CSUN cuz I'd be biting their heels!
> 
> Amanda Lee
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Amanda Lee]

Well they had some serious server problems for about 10 days which
affected mail and the site itself.  Jim T. said it was a Server issue and
was going to order a new one.  I was under the impression, from comments
from others on the list, that it was a Windows-based server.  Perhaps this
is the internal server which is used for Mail and so forth.  You're much
closer to the action than I am.

There is just a lot of poor organizational issues in those forms.  One
problem is that if one accidentally loses their place and the page goes
away during the Basic Publish process, a new book comes up so there's no
way to go back and finish up your work.
That's not really an Accessibility issue at all but poor design.
I would inquire about timing
 on pages containing forms as when one might go out to search down
some information on the net about a title to input into their
database, they could end-up losing everything entered because the
time has expired.

Anyway,
your points aregood and sure do appreciate it that we have someone
of your calibre to advocate.

Good luck!

Amanda Lee

FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

Interesting article.  It's a good site, but it doesn't work well in
Lynx.  I tried to use it with Lynx because my compute that runs that
Other OS is down, but I can't really make a go of it.  Anyone on here
tried to use the site?  

BTW, for you Canadians, Benetech is working with the US Feds and
Canada to get the exemption to other countries in the world, so you
will be able to download copyrighted books.  

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

RE: list noise (was Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster)

[Dawes, Stephen]

Chris 

I am the one responsible for introducing this thread to the list. 
If you want to point your finger of blame for straying of topic, point it directly at me.
However, I will say that in reading through your rant, I couldn't help but notice, that you haven't learned all that you said you have. "... I've spent a great deal of time teaching myself how to learn. 
For me, this means learning to ask questions in a way ..." 
I suggest that you go back to the start of this thread,, read the initial post, and listen to what it says. You will here, 
"Although this is a little off topic, I felt that it kind of fit in with the latest talk about Free Programming Books."

"So what is the lesson here?" You ask Chris. Well, part of asking good questions is listening to the answers. In the case of this thread, I provided you with the solution long before you went on your tirade. You should of heard "a little off topic" and from that point on when you heard the subject line "USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster)" you automatically deleted the message without reading it. This would greatly speed up the time that it takes to read through your Email and reduce your frustration levels.

As to the subject matter of the list, why not go to the speakup home page, and read it carefully to find out what the group is really about. 
http://linux-speakup.org

There, I have said my bit. Oh yeah, Chris, if you don't like the messages that I post to the list, write yourself a filter to block all messages from me, and you won't hurt my feelings if you do! You can post a rebuttal if you like, but this all I am going to write on your unnecessary attack.

Steve Dawes
PH:  (403) 268-5527. 
Mailto:  sdawes@gov.calgary.ab.ca 



-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Peterson [mailto:capeterson@visi.com]
Sent: 2002 March 13 1:02 PM
To: speakup@braille.uwo.ca
Subject: list noise (was Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for
the blind borrows a page from Napster)


Is this a list about linux or a list about speakup?  If its a list about
Linux, I don't need it.  I was spacifically interested in learning about
speakup, and the other projects associated with it.  I thought this was the
place to go for that.

I thought this, because there are a number of other lists where this
discussion might be appropriate.  I've pasted in some info about them incase
you weren't aware of them.
The BLINUX Mailing Lists
blinux-announce
Topic: announcements dealing with blind support under Linux (new software,
conferences etc.).
Moderated list, no noise.
Low number of posts.
If you want to stay in contact with BLINUX.
blinux-develop
Topic: software development enabling the Linux user who is blind.

This might be a place to go for a linux developer to write an unpack util
for bookshare.

Unmoderated list, currently really low traffic...

blinux-list
Topic: themes which contain the words Linux. and blind. For details please
read the

This might be a good place for this discussion.

blinux-FAQ.
Off topic: general Linux questions.
Unmoderated list, high traffic - high noise.
Postings to blinux-announce will be posted here.

This might also be a good place for this discussion.

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, but there are a lot of us who
receive hundreds, if not thousands, of e-mails every day and we need to be
able to go through them quickly.  Thats why there isn't just a general
mailing list that the entire world is on.  It would be kaos.  This is
becoming kaos and I'm sure its not something Kirk has time to deal with and
nobody is saying anything about it except me.

Also, addressing the issue of starting a project with everybody in mind, let
me tell you right now that it isn't possible.  For one thing, to please
everybody would mean that you'd never get off-the-ground.  What about those
people who are using some other Unix-like OS such as FreeBSD?  What about
those using dos?  Or a Braille N Speak?  Or an apple II?  Or a Makintosh?
Or a Comodor 64?  Or an Amiga?  Or an Atari?  How about a Vax? (I do that at
school once in a while)...  The list goes on for ever and ever.  Just
because you're vocal about Linux doesn't mean that it should be a priority.
The fact is, though, that it appears to be a priority.  So, why are you
wining about it?  They're not trying to retrofit as you're referring to it.
And, I get the distinct impression that you have very little knowledge of
software development or web design.

Btw, I've gone and read your web page and what I see there seems to varify
this.  This isn't a big deal and it doesn't mean that you don't have
valuable input.  However, it does mean that there are things about the
process that you don't fully understand.  I'm trying to help to explain some
of them to you so you might be able to restructure your input to be of help
to those in charge of the project.

This isn't the same as adding a wheelchair ramp to a building that wasn't
designed to have one.  Personally, I know how that can fail badly.  Writing
software to support another OS isn't the same thing at all.  It could be,
though, if someone without the right experience tried to do it.  You might
get something like Word Perfect for Linux was.  That would be bad...  I
think that is probably why they're trying to be careful about getting it
done right.

Regarding the web site.  Your assuming that the web site was inaccessible
because it had a message about IE 5.5 was the wrong approach.  It would've
been more helpful to ignore that message and determine if the site was
really accessible, or not.  Then you could go to the webmaster and explain
why that message was wrong, or what you found to be broken so that he/she
could fix the problem.  I see, though, that you didn't even try before you
complained.  Why should someone give you any credibility if you don't have
any evidence to support your case?

I see that you're a teacher.  What is needed, here, is for you to teach
those involved how to make things better.  Just complaining with no
direction is not helpful to them.  It would be like a student constantly
saying "I don't get it", without explaining what they don't understand.  You
have to go through it over and over again, trying to figure out how to
explain it in a way that your student will understand.  This is frustrating
for you and for the student.  In the sam way, this discussion is frustrating
to me, and to the rest of the list that hasn't participated in it.

So far, I've counted four participants in this thread.  Since I know there
are more than four people on the list, I suggest that the discussion might
not be appropriate here.  Still, I am not a moderator and have no authority
to make you move.  Its just a suggestion.

Now, let me explain some things about myself that may give me some
particular credibility, or not...  I am a college student.  I've spent a
great deal of time teaching myself how to learn.  For me, this means
learning to ask questions in a way that clearly explains how to teach a
sighted professor how to teach me.

>From that statement, you may deduce that I am blind.  You would be right.  I
can't see a darn thing, but this isn't a big deal.

I have also acted as a teacher.  Every summer I work with a program which
teaches students with visual impairments to use technology.  This usually
involves Windows, but has involved Braille N Speaks, and other such devices.
I hope, from what I learn here, to be able to teach my students that Linux
can be an alternative.

I'm a computer science major.  This means that I spend most of my life
programming.  Again, most of this is in Windows, but I'm slowly learning
about programming in Linux so I have the ability to work to make Linux as
usable as Windows for all our every-day tasks.  Its a slow process, because
Linux is different from anything I've delt with before.

I'm rambling.  If you've gotten this far in my message, you're probably sick
of me.  Well, I don't blame you.  I've spent a great deal of time on this
all because I want to see that this discussion, if it must take up space in
my inbox and I must exercise my delete finger on it, goes in a constructive
direction.  I think that is what we all want, so lets try to make that
happen.  Also, lets try to minimize the noise that others have to hear when
reading this list.  It makes me want to sumarily delete messages from this
list, or unsubscribe, which I don't believe is any more constructive than
the noise that clogs this list.

Chris Peterson
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 12:52 PM
Subject: Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a
page from Napster


> Hi all,
>
> I did that very thing, Mr. Petersen, and I believe that we may be
> getting somewhere.  If my complaints are too loud for you, I'm sorry.
> You see, I happen to believe strongly that no matter what one does to
> aid persons with disabilities, the primary directive should be
> Universal Access.  This means that when you start a project, you build
> it so that it is accessible to all from the get-go, not a project that
> needs to be retro-fitted.  Retro-fitting has been the way of
> making materials, buildings, transportation and everything else
> accessible.  It's time it stopped, frankly, stopped now!  We have to
> think in terms of *all* users, not just the fortunate few, all users,
> that includes every single person who might want to access whatever
> the heck it is.
>
> If I am disappointed in something, I say so.  I believe that Bookshare
> is making an effort to remedy the problem, and having the discussion
> on here is right because it involves access to something via Linux.
> <smile>  What better place to find programmers for Linux than on a
> Linux list?  What better place to find programmers for making
> something accessible than on a list devoted to accessibility of the
> Linux system to persons who are blind?
>
> Ann P.
>
> P.S.,  It may interest you to know that I thought Janina was writing
> to me privately last night.  That's how come I was so frank in my
> post.  <smile>  Seems my mail blooper started a whopping discussion,
> though.  So, I have continued it.
>
> A.P.
>
> --
> Ann K. Parsons
> email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
JRRT
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>



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