From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from fox-host189.dsl.visi.com ([208.42.144.189] helo=fox.sector14.net) by speech.braille.uwo.ca with esmtp (Exim 3.34 #1 (Debian)) id 16lEyT-0001bp-00 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 15:03:49 -0500 Received: from greatmachine (179-40.dynamic.visi.com [209.98.179.40]) by fox.sector14.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id g2DK3mE19195 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 14:03:49 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from capeterson@visi.com) Message-ID: <008701c1cac9$fa79ad40$28b362d1@greatmachine> From: "Chris Peterson" To: References: <004f01c1cab0$9c8b8a50$28b362d1@greatmachine> <15503.40963.908991.924172@akp.selfhost.com> Subject: list noise (was Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 14:02:15 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Sender: speakup-admin@braille.uwo.ca Errors-To: speakup-admin@braille.uwo.ca X-BeenThere: speakup@braille.uwo.ca X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: speakup@braille.uwo.ca List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Is this a list about linux or a list about speakup? If its a list about Linux, I don't need it. I was spacifically interested in learning about speakup, and the other projects associated with it. I thought this was the place to go for that. I thought this, because there are a number of other lists where this discussion might be appropriate. I've pasted in some info about them incase you weren't aware of them. The BLINUX Mailing Lists blinux-announce Topic: announcements dealing with blind support under Linux (new software, conferences etc.). Moderated list, no noise. Low number of posts. If you want to stay in contact with BLINUX. blinux-develop Topic: software development enabling the Linux user who is blind. This might be a place to go for a linux developer to write an unpack util for bookshare. Unmoderated list, currently really low traffic... blinux-list Topic: themes which contain the words Linux. and blind. For details please read the This might be a good place for this discussion. blinux-FAQ. Off topic: general Linux questions. Unmoderated list, high traffic - high noise. Postings to blinux-announce will be posted here. This might also be a good place for this discussion. I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, but there are a lot of us who receive hundreds, if not thousands, of e-mails every day and we need to be able to go through them quickly. Thats why there isn't just a general mailing list that the entire world is on. It would be kaos. This is becoming kaos and I'm sure its not something Kirk has time to deal with and nobody is saying anything about it except me. Also, addressing the issue of starting a project with everybody in mind, let me tell you right now that it isn't possible. For one thing, to please everybody would mean that you'd never get off-the-ground. What about those people who are using some other Unix-like OS such as FreeBSD? What about those using dos? Or a Braille N Speak? Or an apple II? Or a Makintosh? Or a Comodor 64? Or an Amiga? Or an Atari? How about a Vax? (I do that at school once in a while)... The list goes on for ever and ever. Just because you're vocal about Linux doesn't mean that it should be a priority. The fact is, though, that it appears to be a priority. So, why are you wining about it? They're not trying to retrofit as you're referring to it. And, I get the distinct impression that you have very little knowledge of software development or web design. Btw, I've gone and read your web page and what I see there seems to varify this. This isn't a big deal and it doesn't mean that you don't have valuable input. However, it does mean that there are things about the process that you don't fully understand. I'm trying to help to explain some of them to you so you might be able to restructure your input to be of help to those in charge of the project. This isn't the same as adding a wheelchair ramp to a building that wasn't designed to have one. Personally, I know how that can fail badly. Writing software to support another OS isn't the same thing at all. It could be, though, if someone without the right experience tried to do it. You might get something like Word Perfect for Linux was. That would be bad... I think that is probably why they're trying to be careful about getting it done right. Regarding the web site. Your assuming that the web site was inaccessible because it had a message about IE 5.5 was the wrong approach. It would've been more helpful to ignore that message and determine if the site was really accessible, or not. Then you could go to the webmaster and explain why that message was wrong, or what you found to be broken so that he/she could fix the problem. I see, though, that you didn't even try before you complained. Why should someone give you any credibility if you don't have any evidence to support your case? I see that you're a teacher. What is needed, here, is for you to teach those involved how to make things better. Just complaining with no direction is not helpful to them. It would be like a student constantly saying "I don't get it", without explaining what they don't understand. You have to go through it over and over again, trying to figure out how to explain it in a way that your student will understand. This is frustrating for you and for the student. In the sam way, this discussion is frustrating to me, and to the rest of the list that hasn't participated in it. So far, I've counted four participants in this thread. Since I know there are more than four people on the list, I suggest that the discussion might not be appropriate here. Still, I am not a moderator and have no authority to make you move. Its just a suggestion. Now, let me explain some things about myself that may give me some particular credibility, or not... I am a college student. I've spent a great deal of time teaching myself how to learn. For me, this means learning to ask questions in a way that clearly explains how to teach a sighted professor how to teach me. >>From that statement, you may deduce that I am blind. You would be right. I can't see a darn thing, but this isn't a big deal. I have also acted as a teacher. Every summer I work with a program which teaches students with visual impairments to use technology. This usually involves Windows, but has involved Braille N Speaks, and other such devices. I hope, from what I learn here, to be able to teach my students that Linux can be an alternative. I'm a computer science major. This means that I spend most of my life programming. Again, most of this is in Windows, but I'm slowly learning about programming in Linux so I have the ability to work to make Linux as usable as Windows for all our every-day tasks. Its a slow process, because Linux is different from anything I've delt with before. I'm rambling. If you've gotten this far in my message, you're probably sick of me. Well, I don't blame you. I've spent a great deal of time on this all because I want to see that this discussion, if it must take up space in my inbox and I must exercise my delete finger on it, goes in a constructive direction. I think that is what we all want, so lets try to make that happen. Also, lets try to minimize the noise that others have to hear when reading this list. It makes me want to sumarily delete messages from this list, or unsubscribe, which I don't believe is any more constructive than the noise that clogs this list. Chris Peterson _______________ The Space Report Internet and satellite delivered news from space. Visit our web site at www.TheSpaceReport.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ann Parsons" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 12:52 PM Subject: Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster > Hi all, > > I did that very thing, Mr. Petersen, and I believe that we may be > getting somewhere. If my complaints are too loud for you, I'm sorry. > You see, I happen to believe strongly that no matter what one does to > aid persons with disabilities, the primary directive should be > Universal Access. This means that when you start a project, you build > it so that it is accessible to all from the get-go, not a project that > needs to be retro-fitted. Retro-fitting has been the way of > making materials, buildings, transportation and everything else > accessible. It's time it stopped, frankly, stopped now! We have to > think in terms of *all* users, not just the fortunate few, all users, > that includes every single person who might want to access whatever > the heck it is. > > If I am disappointed in something, I say so. I believe that Bookshare > is making an effort to remedy the problem, and having the discussion > on here is right because it involves access to something via Linux. > What better place to find programmers for Linux than on a > Linux list? What better place to find programmers for making > something accessible than on a list devoted to accessibility of the > Linux system to persons who are blind? > > Ann P. > > P.S., It may interest you to know that I thought Janina was writing > to me privately last night. That's how come I was so frank in my > post. Seems my mail blooper started a whopping discussion, > though. So, I have continued it. > > A.P. > > -- > Ann K. Parsons > email: akp@eznet.net ICQ Number: 33006854 > WEB SITE: http://home.eznet.net/~akp > "All that is gold does not glitter. Not all those who wander are lost." JRRT > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > >