list noise (was Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a page from Napster)

["Chris Peterson" <capeterson@visi.com>]

Is this a list about linux or a list about speakup?  If its a list about
Linux, I don't need it.  I was spacifically interested in learning about
speakup, and the other projects associated with it.  I thought this was the
place to go for that.

I thought this, because there are a number of other lists where this
discussion might be appropriate.  I've pasted in some info about them incase
you weren't aware of them.
The BLINUX Mailing Lists
blinux-announce
Topic: announcements dealing with blind support under Linux (new software,
conferences etc.).
Moderated list, no noise.
Low number of posts.
If you want to stay in contact with BLINUX.
blinux-develop
Topic: software development enabling the Linux user who is blind.

This might be a place to go for a linux developer to write an unpack util
for bookshare.

Unmoderated list, currently really low traffic...

blinux-list
Topic: themes which contain the words Linux. and blind. For details please
read the

This might be a good place for this discussion.

blinux-FAQ.
Off topic: general Linux questions.
Unmoderated list, high traffic - high noise.
Postings to blinux-announce will be posted here.

This might also be a good place for this discussion.

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, but there are a lot of us who
receive hundreds, if not thousands, of e-mails every day and we need to be
able to go through them quickly.  Thats why there isn't just a general
mailing list that the entire world is on.  It would be kaos.  This is
becoming kaos and I'm sure its not something Kirk has time to deal with and
nobody is saying anything about it except me.

Also, addressing the issue of starting a project with everybody in mind, let
me tell you right now that it isn't possible.  For one thing, to please
everybody would mean that you'd never get off-the-ground.  What about those
people who are using some other Unix-like OS such as FreeBSD?  What about
those using dos?  Or a Braille N Speak?  Or an apple II?  Or a Makintosh?
Or a Comodor 64?  Or an Amiga?  Or an Atari?  How about a Vax? (I do that at
school once in a while)...  The list goes on for ever and ever.  Just
because you're vocal about Linux doesn't mean that it should be a priority.
The fact is, though, that it appears to be a priority.  So, why are you
wining about it?  They're not trying to retrofit as you're referring to it.
And, I get the distinct impression that you have very little knowledge of
software development or web design.

Btw, I've gone and read your web page and what I see there seems to varify
this.  This isn't a big deal and it doesn't mean that you don't have
valuable input.  However, it does mean that there are things about the
process that you don't fully understand.  I'm trying to help to explain some
of them to you so you might be able to restructure your input to be of help
to those in charge of the project.

This isn't the same as adding a wheelchair ramp to a building that wasn't
designed to have one.  Personally, I know how that can fail badly.  Writing
software to support another OS isn't the same thing at all.  It could be,
though, if someone without the right experience tried to do it.  You might
get something like Word Perfect for Linux was.  That would be bad...  I
think that is probably why they're trying to be careful about getting it
done right.

Regarding the web site.  Your assuming that the web site was inaccessible
because it had a message about IE 5.5 was the wrong approach.  It would've
been more helpful to ignore that message and determine if the site was
really accessible, or not.  Then you could go to the webmaster and explain
why that message was wrong, or what you found to be broken so that he/she
could fix the problem.  I see, though, that you didn't even try before you
complained.  Why should someone give you any credibility if you don't have
any evidence to support your case?

I see that you're a teacher.  What is needed, here, is for you to teach
those involved how to make things better.  Just complaining with no
direction is not helpful to them.  It would be like a student constantly
saying "I don't get it", without explaining what they don't understand.  You
have to go through it over and over again, trying to figure out how to
explain it in a way that your student will understand.  This is frustrating
for you and for the student.  In the sam way, this discussion is frustrating
to me, and to the rest of the list that hasn't participated in it.

So far, I've counted four participants in this thread.  Since I know there
are more than four people on the list, I suggest that the discussion might
not be appropriate here.  Still, I am not a moderator and have no authority
to make you move.  Its just a suggestion.

Now, let me explain some things about myself that may give me some
particular credibility, or not...  I am a college student.  I've spent a
great deal of time teaching myself how to learn.  For me, this means
learning to ask questions in a way that clearly explains how to teach a
sighted professor how to teach me.

>From that statement, you may deduce that I am blind.  You would be right.  I
can't see a darn thing, but this isn't a big deal.

I have also acted as a teacher.  Every summer I work with a program which
teaches students with visual impairments to use technology.  This usually
involves Windows, but has involved Braille N Speaks, and other such devices.
I hope, from what I learn here, to be able to teach my students that Linux
can be an alternative.

I'm a computer science major.  This means that I spend most of my life
programming.  Again, most of this is in Windows, but I'm slowly learning
about programming in Linux so I have the ability to work to make Linux as
usable as Windows for all our every-day tasks.  Its a slow process, because
Linux is different from anything I've delt with before.

I'm rambling.  If you've gotten this far in my message, you're probably sick
of me.  Well, I don't blame you.  I've spent a great deal of time on this
all because I want to see that this discussion, if it must take up space in
my inbox and I must exercise my delete finger on it, goes in a constructive
direction.  I think that is what we all want, so lets try to make that
happen.  Also, lets try to minimize the noise that others have to hear when
reading this list.  It makes me want to sumarily delete messages from this
list, or unsubscribe, which I don't believe is any more constructive than
the noise that clogs this list.

Chris Peterson
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 12:52 PM
Subject: Re: FW: USA: Online book-sharing service for the blind borrows a
page from Napster


> Hi all,
>
> I did that very thing, Mr. Petersen, and I believe that we may be
> getting somewhere.  If my complaints are too loud for you, I'm sorry.
> You see, I happen to believe strongly that no matter what one does to
> aid persons with disabilities, the primary directive should be
> Universal Access.  This means that when you start a project, you build
> it so that it is accessible to all from the get-go, not a project that
> needs to be retro-fitted.  Retro-fitting has been the way of
> making materials, buildings, transportation and everything else
> accessible.  It's time it stopped, frankly, stopped now!  We have to
> think in terms of *all* users, not just the fortunate few, all users,
> that includes every single person who might want to access whatever
> the heck it is.
>
> If I am disappointed in something, I say so.  I believe that Bookshare
> is making an effort to remedy the problem, and having the discussion
> on here is right because it involves access to something via Linux.
> <smile>  What better place to find programmers for Linux than on a
> Linux list?  What better place to find programmers for making
> something accessible than on a list devoted to accessibility of the
> Linux system to persons who are blind?
>
> Ann P.
>
> P.S.,  It may interest you to know that I thought Janina was writing
> to me privately last night.  That's how come I was so frank in my
> post.  <smile>  Seems my mail blooper started a whopping discussion,
> though.  So, I have continued it.
>
> A.P.
>
> --
> Ann K. Parsons
> email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
JRRT
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>