Re: Using Grub with Speech

Re: Using Grub with Speech

[Sean M McMahon]

I just found some sample menu.lst files.  Here's one with a lot of stuff 
in it but it shows a few lines with boot perameters after the kernel name 
and lines with windows 95 loaded, or one of those windows systems.
http://www.antlinux.com/lifebook/menu.lst
here's another posted at
http://www.dewback.cl/files/public/confs/menu.lst
how would you get lilo to talk?  I may use it instead.

Re: Using Grub with Speech

[Steve Holmes]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Thu, Sep 16, 2004 at 11:27:40AM -0700, Sean M McMahon wrote:
> how would you get lilo to talk?  I may use it instead.

I just inserted the following line in the top of my lilo.conf file:
serial = 0,9600n8

That works great with my speakout synth.  Does your question mean that
grub doesn't talk at all? Is there no way to get speech from the grub prompt?

- -- 
HolmesGrown Solutions
The best solutions for the best price!
http://ld.net/?holmesgrown
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=G6Sy
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Re: Using Grub with Speech

[Janina Sajka]

Steve Holmes writes:
> Does your question mean that
> grub doesn't talk at all? Is there no way to get speech from the grub prompt?
> 
Correct. There is no way.

> 
- -- 
> HolmesGrown Solutions
> The best solutions for the best price!
> http://ld.net/?holmesgrown
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux)
> 
> iD8DBQFBTyzRWSjv55S0LfERAljzAKD1K2B285MyPyB5Qc15/wH7OswvHQCfXmcP
> yVxjR5d2F0y4+NOC7A5VBys=
> =G6Sy
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Chair
				Accessibility Workgroup
				Free Standards Group (FSG)

janina@freestandards.org	Phone: +1 202.494.7040

Re: Using Grub with Speech

[Janina Sajka]

Steve Holmes writes:
> Does your question mean that
> grub doesn't talk at all? Is there no way to get speech from the grub prompt?
> 
Correct. There is no way.

> 
- -- 
> HolmesGrown Solutions
> The best solutions for the best price!
> http://ld.net/?holmesgrown
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux)
> 
> iD8DBQFBTyzRWSjv55S0LfERAljzAKD1K2B285MyPyB5Qc15/wH7OswvHQCfXmcP
> yVxjR5d2F0y4+NOC7A5VBys=
> =G6Sy
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Chair
				Accessibility Workgroup
				Free Standards Group (FSG)

janina@freestandards.org	Phone: +1 202.494.7040

Re: Using Grub with Speech

[Steve Holmes]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

That's too bad.  I'm rather spoiled with getting speech right when
lilo pops up.  It comes in handy when trying to verify boot sequences
and whether or not the machine is even functioning correctly.  Can
grub be made to beep by inserting control-g's in the menu file?

- -- 
HolmesGrown Solutions
The best solutions for the best price!
http://ld.net/?holmesgrown
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Re: Using Grub with Speech

[Janina Sajka]

Yes, grub will beep. Put a Ctrl-G ahead of the title. Here's an example:


title \aFedora Core (2.6.8-1.541.rootsmp)

In case you don't see the Ctrl-G, it's immediately ahead of the word
"Fedora."

Steve Holmes writes:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> That's too bad.  I'm rather spoiled with getting speech right when
> lilo pops up.  It comes in handy when trying to verify boot sequences
> and whether or not the machine is even functioning correctly.  Can
> grub be made to beep by inserting control-g's in the menu file?
> 
> - -- 
> HolmesGrown Solutions
> The best solutions for the best price!
> http://ld.net/?holmesgrown
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux)
> 
> iD8DBQFBT2fQWSjv55S0LfERAogyAJwJzYmPrej1+XpwBZ5XD5wtpX/f+ACdE39d
> m3HWXDCnT0HiQ0uhubasJp0=
> =DxO1
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Chair
				Accessibility Workgroup
				Free Standards Group (FSG)

janina@freestandards.org	Phone: +1 202.494.7040

Linux and data storage?

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi all,
This is an odd one, so I hope I ask it in such a way to make sense.
I do not have a Linux machine.  I have been trying to get this, and 
thought I had one in the he works but it seems that party either made up the 
machines they were offering, or  for some other reason is not coming 
through.
In any case, I do use a Linux shell service extensively.  I fear almost 
too extensively, as you will understand in a moment.
The OS on the system i use mostly is dos, and I use nettamer to telnet to 
my Linux shell.
In the workspace of my shell service i have a great deal of irreplaceable 
files and programs.  I eave them up here, for ease, but I just was 
reminded that this may be a venerable state of affairs.
Fortunately when the server went down nothing was lost or so it seems, but 
I have a serious factor to consider.
  My question has two parts.
first, is there a way to move large amounts of data stored in the 
workspace of a Linux shell service to another location in tact, with 
relative ease,  and without taking all of the data on the entire system?
second, if my machine was also a Linux one, would this kind of storage be 
easy to do?
As I said before I do not have such a machine, but this has shaken me up 
enough that if a full Linux or Linux/dos or Linux/windows machine would 
give me some firm safe backup, I will have to start advertising for 
someone to build this for me and encurl the expense.
  I have too busy a professional life to do this myself, and would rather 
pay someone with the skills than lose valuable time trying to re-invent the 
wheel.
Thanks,
Karen

Re: Linux and data storage?

[hank]

where do you get your shell service from>?
am curious.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@shellworld.net>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 5:23 PM
Subject: Linux and data storage?


> Hi all,
> This is an odd one, so I hope I ask it in such a way to make sense.
> I do not have a Linux machine.  I have been trying to get this, and 
> thought I had one in the he works but it seems that party either made up 
> the machines they were offering, or  for some other reason is not coming 
> through.
> In any case, I do use a Linux shell service extensively.  I fear almost 
> too extensively, as you will understand in a moment.
> The OS on the system i use mostly is dos, and I use nettamer to telnet to 
> my Linux shell.
> In the workspace of my shell service i have a great deal of irreplaceable 
> files and programs.  I eave them up here, for ease, but I just was 
> reminded that this may be a venerable state of affairs.
> Fortunately when the server went down nothing was lost or so it seems, but 
> I have a serious factor to consider.
>  My question has two parts.
> first, is there a way to move large amounts of data stored in the 
> workspace of a Linux shell service to another location in tact, with 
> relative ease,  and without taking all of the data on the entire system?
> second, if my machine was also a Linux one, would this kind of storage be 
> easy to do?
> As I said before I do not have such a machine, but this has shaken me up 
> enough that if a full Linux or Linux/dos or Linux/windows machine would 
> give me some firm safe backup, I will have to start advertising for 
> someone to build this for me and encurl the expense.
>  I have too busy a professional life to do this myself, and would rather 
> pay someone with the skills than lose valuable time trying to re-invent 
> the wheel.
> Thanks,
> Karen
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 

----------------------------------------
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Re: Linux and data storage?

[Chuck Hallenbeck]

Karen,

You have two bottlenecks, seems to me. One is your connection speed, the
other is nettamer. You can use "tar" on your ISP's system to aggregate
those precious files into one archive, assuming you have the space, and
then move that archive somewhere. Nettamer could retrieve it with its
ftp facility, but it might take forever over a dialup link.

If you had a linux desktop, you could use an ftp client on your desktop,
call it "system A", to move files from "system B" to "system C",
assuming you had the necessary access permissions and such.

Also, you could email stuff to yourself with attachments, although
nettamer is a little weird about attachments, and then you have filesize
limits.

Finally, if you had a Linux desktop and a high speed connection you
would be home free. Just grab all those files quickly with an FTP
client, move them to your desktop, and burn them to a CD if you need to.

My Linux system uses two 40 GB disks, one of which is used extensively
to backup stuff on the other. Not exactly a raid system, but heavily
redundant. I do use CD backups too once in a blue moon.

Your DOS desktop has limited HD storage. A Linux desktop would not. I
have a DOS partition of 500 MB on each of my two 40 GB hard discs, just
in case, but have not booted into DOS in several years. For my own
situation, I cannot imagine ever being able (psychologically) to return
to DOS and Nettamer.

Chuck


On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, Karen Lewellen wrote:

> Hi all,
> This is an odd one, so I hope I ask it in such a way to make sense.
> I do not have a Linux machine.  I have been trying to get this, and thought I 
> had one in the he works but it seems that party either made up the machines 
> they were offering, or  for some other reason is not coming through.
> In any case, I do use a Linux shell service extensively.  I fear almost too 
> extensively, as you will understand in a moment.
> The OS on the system i use mostly is dos, and I use nettamer to telnet to my 
> Linux shell.
> In the workspace of my shell service i have a great deal of irreplaceable 
> files and programs.  I eave them up here, for ease, but I just was reminded 
> that this may be a venerable state of affairs.
> Fortunately when the server went down nothing was lost or so it seems, but I 
> have a serious factor to consider.
> My question has two parts.
> first, is there a way to move large amounts of data stored in the workspace 
> of a Linux shell service to another location in tact, with relative ease, 
> and without taking all of the data on the entire system?
> second, if my machine was also a Linux one, would this kind of storage be 
> easy to do?
> As I said before I do not have such a machine, but this has shaken me up 
> enough that if a full Linux or Linux/dos or Linux/windows machine would give 
> me some firm safe backup, I will have to start advertising for someone to 
> build this for me and encurl the expense.
> I have too busy a professional life to do this myself, and would rather pay 
> someone with the skills than lose valuable time trying to re-invent the 
> wheel.
> Thanks,
> Karen
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

-- 
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Home page at http://www.mhcable.com/~chuckh
Speakfreely address 24.105.197.112:2074

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Karen Lewellen]

shellworld.net
www.shellworld.net
admin@shellworld.net
for the contact.


On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, hank wrote:

> where do you get your shell service from>?
> am curious.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karen Lewellen" 
> <klewellen@shellworld.net>
> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 5:23 PM
> Subject: Linux and data storage?
>
>
>> Hi all,
>> This is an odd one, so I hope I ask it in such a way to make sense.
>> I do not have a Linux machine.  I have been trying to get this, and 
>> thought I had one in the he works but it seems that party either made up 
>> the machines they were offering, or  for some other reason is not coming 
>> through.
>> In any case, I do use a Linux shell service extensively.  I fear almost 
>> too extensively, as you will understand in a moment.
>> The OS on the system i use mostly is dos, and I use nettamer to telnet to 
>> my Linux shell.
>> In the workspace of my shell service i have a great deal of irreplaceable 
>> files and programs.  I eave them up here, for ease, but I just was 
>> reminded that this may be a venerable state of affairs.
>> Fortunately when the server went down nothing was lost or so it seems, 
>> but I have a serious factor to consider.
>> My question has two parts.
>> first, is there a way to move large amounts of data stored in the 
>> workspace of a Linux shell service to another location in tact, with 
>> relative ease,  and without taking all of the data on the entire system?
>> second, if my machine was also a Linux one, would this kind of storage be 
>> easy to do?
>> As I said before I do not have such a machine, but this has shaken me up 
>> enough that if a full Linux or Linux/dos or Linux/windows machine would 
>> give me some firm safe backup, I will have to start advertising for 
>> someone to build this for me and encurl the expense.
>> I have too busy a professional life to do this myself, and would rather 
>> pay someone with the skills than lose valuable time trying to re-invent 
>> the wheel.
>> Thanks,
>> Karen
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 
>
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>
>

RE: Linux and data storage?

[Sina Bahram]

If I may humbly suggest?

Fxp, or flash xp as I think it is...is a windows tool that allows someone to
connect to one ftp, then connect to the other ftp...and then say, FTP A,
copy stuff to FTP B....then all you have to do is sit back and let the data
packets flow...it doesn't go through your system at all: so you could
transfer information at any speed, only limited by the two ftp servers, not
by your own connection.

*shrug* is there a linux equivalent to this tool/protocall?

Take care,
Sina

No trees were destroyed in sending this message; however, a large number of
electrons were terribly inconvenienced. 
-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of Chuck Hallenbeck
Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 8:51 PM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: Linux and data storage?

Karen,

You have two bottlenecks, seems to me. One is your connection speed, the
other is nettamer. You can use "tar" on your ISP's system to aggregate those
precious files into one archive, assuming you have the space, and then move
that archive somewhere. Nettamer could retrieve it with its ftp facility,
but it might take forever over a dialup link.

If you had a linux desktop, you could use an ftp client on your desktop,
call it "system A", to move files from "system B" to "system C", assuming
you had the necessary access permissions and such.

Also, you could email stuff to yourself with attachments, although nettamer
is a little weird about attachments, and then you have filesize limits.

Finally, if you had a Linux desktop and a high speed connection you would be
home free. Just grab all those files quickly with an FTP client, move them
to your desktop, and burn them to a CD if you need to.

My Linux system uses two 40 GB disks, one of which is used extensively to
backup stuff on the other. Not exactly a raid system, but heavily redundant.
I do use CD backups too once in a blue moon.

Your DOS desktop has limited HD storage. A Linux desktop would not. I have a
DOS partition of 500 MB on each of my two 40 GB hard discs, just in case,
but have not booted into DOS in several years. For my own situation, I
cannot imagine ever being able (psychologically) to return to DOS and
Nettamer.

Chuck

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Luke Yelavich]

On Mon, Sep 27, 2004 at 10:23:46AM EST, Karen Lewellen wrote:
> Hi all,
> This is an odd one, so I hope I ask it in such a way to make sense.
> I do not have a Linux machine.  I have been trying to get this, and 
> thought I had one in the he works but it seems that party either made up 
> the machines they were offering, or  for some other reason is not coming 
> through.

Thats a shame, but I guess it can't be helped.

<Snip>
> first, is there a way to move large amounts of data stored in the 
> workspace of a Linux shell service to another location in tact, with 
> relative ease,  and without taking all of the data on the entire system?

There is certainly a way of doing this, read below.

> second, if my machine was also a Linux one, would this kind of storage be 
> easy to do?

If you had a Linux machine locally, I.E one that you owned and used yourself,
it would be a lot easier to do, as the tools that I am thinking of are readily
available on Linux.

The tools I am thinking of, are the SSH suite of tools, particularly one command
being scp. This command allows you to copy data securely over a network
connection, by means of encryption.

You will have to investigate whether such tools are available for DOS, but if
there is, it will be easy to copy all the data over in one command, without
bringing the rest of the system with it.

The only problem might be that you may have to use tools other than net tamer
to connect to the net in order to use scp.

As I said earlier, if you have local access to a Linux machine, this would be
a hell of a lot easier to do.

I hope this helps.

Luke

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi,
I would not use nettamer's ftp facilities for this.  i have a great ftp 
client called agents, which is fast and clean, but again i am using a 
dialup so am  limited via the 56k connection speed.
would tar work with my isp as a ppp/ip connection, and in dos?
Not holding on to dos so much as seeking a fast solution.
as a telnet to shellworld, nettamer is wonderful.  as the best solution, 
I realize its drawbacks, but I know no one with the Linux expertise at 
this end.
So while the Linux setup with a high speed connection sounds marvelous, I 
am still short a technical mind for this.
Thanks for the tar idea, where might i find this?
Karen

On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, Chuck Hallenbeck wrote:

> Karen,
>
> You have two bottlenecks, seems to me. One is your connection speed, the
> other is nettamer. You can use "tar" on your ISP's system to aggregate
> those precious files into one archive, assuming you have the space, and
> then move that archive somewhere. Nettamer could retrieve it with its
> ftp facility, but it might take forever over a dialup link.
>
> If you had a linux desktop, you could use an ftp client on your desktop,
> call it "system A", to move files from "system B" to "system C",
> assuming you had the necessary access permissions and such.
>
> Also, you could email stuff to yourself with attachments, although
> nettamer is a little weird about attachments, and then you have filesize
> limits.
>
> Finally, if you had a Linux desktop and a high speed connection you
> would be home free. Just grab all those files quickly with an FTP
> client, move them to your desktop, and burn them to a CD if you need to.
>
> My Linux system uses two 40 GB disks, one of which is used extensively
> to backup stuff on the other. Not exactly a raid system, but heavily
> redundant. I do use CD backups too once in a blue moon.
>
> Your DOS desktop has limited HD storage. A Linux desktop would not. I
> have a DOS partition of 500 MB on each of my two 40 GB hard discs, just
> in case, but have not booted into DOS in several years. For my own
> situation, I cannot imagine ever being able (psychologically) to return
> to DOS and Nettamer.
>
> Chuck
>
>
> On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>> This is an odd one, so I hope I ask it in such a way to make sense.
>> I do not have a Linux machine.  I have been trying to get this, and 
>> thought I had one in the he works but it seems that party either made up 
>> the machines they were offering, or  for some other reason is not coming 
>> through.
>> In any case, I do use a Linux shell service extensively.  I fear almost 
>> too extensively, as you will understand in a moment.
>> The OS on the system i use mostly is dos, and I use nettamer to telnet to 
>> my Linux shell.
>> In the workspace of my shell service i have a great deal of irreplaceable 
>> files and programs.  I eave them up here, for ease, but I just was 
>> reminded that this may be a venerable state of affairs.
>> Fortunately when the server went down nothing was lost or so it seems, 
>> but I have a serious factor to consider.
>> My question has two parts.
>> first, is there a way to move large amounts of data stored in the 
>> workspace of a Linux shell service to another location in tact, with 
>> relative ease, and without taking all of the data on the entire system?
>> second, if my machine was also a Linux one, would this kind of storage be 
>> easy to do?
>> As I said before I do not have such a machine, but this has shaken me up 
>> enough that if a full Linux or Linux/dos or Linux/windows machine would 
>> give me some firm safe backup, I will have to start advertising for 
>> someone to build this for me and encurl the expense.
>> I have too busy a professional life to do this myself, and would rather 
>> pay someone with the skills than lose valuable time trying to re-invent 
>> the wheel.
>> Thanks,
>> Karen
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> 
>
> -- 
> The Moon is Waxing Gibbous (97% of Full)
> Home page at http://www.mhcable.com/~chuckh
> Speakfreely address 24.105.197.112:2074
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

RE: Linux and data storage?

[Karen Lewellen]

hmm,
Let me be sure I follow you.
This is a program that runs in windows, that would let me move the contents 
of my shellworld workspace,  <i have ftp here too of course> to say the 
storage on my website<where I also  have ftp,> and that is not located on 
shellworld?
if all this is true, where can i find this tool?
Karen

On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, Sina Bahram wrote:

> If I may humbly suggest?
>
> Fxp, or flash xp as I think it is...is a windows tool that allows someone to
> connect to one ftp, then connect to the other ftp...and then say, FTP A,
> copy stuff to FTP B....then all you have to do is sit back and let the data
> packets flow...it doesn't go through your system at all: so you could
> transfer information at any speed, only limited by the two ftp servers, not
> by your own connection.
>
> *shrug* is there a linux equivalent to this tool/protocall?
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
> No trees were destroyed in sending this message; however, a large number of
> electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
> On Behalf Of Chuck Hallenbeck
> Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 8:51 PM
> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> Subject: Re: Linux and data storage?
>
> Karen,
>
> You have two bottlenecks, seems to me. One is your connection speed, the
> other is nettamer. You can use "tar" on your ISP's system to aggregate those
> precious files into one archive, assuming you have the space, and then move
> that archive somewhere. Nettamer could retrieve it with its ftp facility,
> but it might take forever over a dialup link.
>
> If you had a linux desktop, you could use an ftp client on your desktop,
> call it "system A", to move files from "system B" to "system C", assuming
> you had the necessary access permissions and such.
>
> Also, you could email stuff to yourself with attachments, although nettamer
> is a little weird about attachments, and then you have filesize limits.
>
> Finally, if you had a Linux desktop and a high speed connection you would be
> home free. Just grab all those files quickly with an FTP client, move them
> to your desktop, and burn them to a CD if you need to.
>
> My Linux system uses two 40 GB disks, one of which is used extensively to
> backup stuff on the other. Not exactly a raid system, but heavily redundant.
> I do use CD backups too once in a blue moon.
>
> Your DOS desktop has limited HD storage. A Linux desktop would not. I have a
> DOS partition of 500 MB on each of my two 40 GB hard discs, just in case,
> but have not booted into DOS in several years. For my own situation, I
> cannot imagine ever being able (psychologically) to return to DOS and
> Nettamer.
>
> Chuck
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

RE: Linux and data storage?

[Sina Bahram]

Fxp can be found at 

www.flashfxp.com

Hope that helps.

Take care,
Sina

No trees were destroyed in sending this message; however, a large number of
electrons were terribly inconvenienced. 
-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of Karen Lewellen
Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 9:15 PM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: RE: Linux and data storage?

hmm,
Let me be sure I follow you.
This is a program that runs in windows, that would let me move the contents
of my shellworld workspace,  <i have ftp here too of course> to say the
storage on my website<where I also  have ftp,> and that is not located on
shellworld?
if all this is true, where can i find this tool?
Karen

On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, Sina Bahram wrote:

> If I may humbly suggest?
>
> Fxp, or flash xp as I think it is...is a windows tool that allows 
> someone to connect to one ftp, then connect to the other ftp...and 
> then say, FTP A, copy stuff to FTP B....then all you have to do is sit 
> back and let the data packets flow...it doesn't go through your system 
> at all: so you could transfer information at any speed, only limited 
> by the two ftp servers, not by your own connection.
>
> *shrug* is there a linux equivalent to this tool/protocall?
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
> No trees were destroyed in sending this message; however, a large 
> number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca 
> [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
> On Behalf Of Chuck Hallenbeck
> Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 8:51 PM
> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> Subject: Re: Linux and data storage?
>
> Karen,
>
> You have two bottlenecks, seems to me. One is your connection speed, 
> the other is nettamer. You can use "tar" on your ISP's system to 
> aggregate those precious files into one archive, assuming you have the 
> space, and then move that archive somewhere. Nettamer could retrieve 
> it with its ftp facility, but it might take forever over a dialup link.
>
> If you had a linux desktop, you could use an ftp client on your 
> desktop, call it "system A", to move files from "system B" to "system 
> C", assuming you had the necessary access permissions and such.
>
> Also, you could email stuff to yourself with attachments, although 
> nettamer is a little weird about attachments, and then you have filesize
limits.
>
> Finally, if you had a Linux desktop and a high speed connection you 
> would be home free. Just grab all those files quickly with an FTP 
> client, move them to your desktop, and burn them to a CD if you need to.
>
> My Linux system uses two 40 GB disks, one of which is used extensively 
> to backup stuff on the other. Not exactly a raid system, but heavily
redundant.
> I do use CD backups too once in a blue moon.
>
> Your DOS desktop has limited HD storage. A Linux desktop would not. I 
> have a DOS partition of 500 MB on each of my two 40 GB hard discs, 
> just in case, but have not booted into DOS in several years. For my 
> own situation, I cannot imagine ever being able (psychologically) to 
> return to DOS and Nettamer.
>
> Chuck
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi,
I have no local access to a Linux  machine, as said.  However nettamer 
is not necessarily  the only way I can connect to the net.
I have all the connection information, so any program that is a stand 
alone ppp/ip, as with agents for example, can get me to the net.
I will ask about these tools in dos, and a connection method.
Thanks,
Karen


On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Luke Yelavich wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 27, 2004 at 10:23:46AM EST, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> This is an odd one, so I hope I ask it in such a way to make sense.
>> I do not have a Linux machine.  I have been trying to get this, and
>> thought I had one in the he works but it seems that party either made up
>> the machines they were offering, or  for some other reason is not coming
>> through.
>
> Thats a shame, but I guess it can't be helped.
>
> <Snip>
>> first, is there a way to move large amounts of data stored in the
>> workspace of a Linux shell service to another location in tact, with
>> relative ease,  and without taking all of the data on the entire system?
>
> There is certainly a way of doing this, read below.
>
>> second, if my machine was also a Linux one, would this kind of storage be
>> easy to do?
>
> If you had a Linux machine locally, I.E one that you owned and used yourself,
> it would be a lot easier to do, as the tools that I am thinking of are readily
> available on Linux.
>
> The tools I am thinking of, are the SSH suite of tools, particularly one command
> being scp. This command allows you to copy data securely over a network
> connection, by means of encryption.
>
> You will have to investigate whether such tools are available for DOS, but if
> there is, it will be easy to copy all the data over in one command, without
> bringing the rest of the system with it.
>
> The only problem might be that you may have to use tools other than net tamer
> to connect to the net in order to use scp.
>
> As I said earlier, if you have local access to a Linux machine, this would be
> a hell of a lot easier to do.
>
> I hope this helps.
>
> Luke
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

RE: Linux and data storage?

[Karen Lewellen]

Thanks, It may.
While the Linux machine I have been waiting for nearly 6months or more 
seems to be nonexistent, I know more than a few people who use windows 
grin.
Karen


On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, Sina Bahram wrote:

> Fxp can be found at
>
> www.flashfxp.com
>
> Hope that helps.
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
> No trees were destroyed in sending this message; however, a large number of
> electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
> On Behalf Of Karen Lewellen
> Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 9:15 PM
> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> Subject: RE: Linux and data storage?
>
> hmm,
> Let me be sure I follow you.
> This is a program that runs in windows, that would let me move the contents
> of my shellworld workspace,  <i have ftp here too of course> to say the
> storage on my website<where I also  have ftp,> and that is not located on
> shellworld?
> if all this is true, where can i find this tool?
> Karen
>
> On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, Sina Bahram wrote:
>
>> If I may humbly suggest?
>>
>> Fxp, or flash xp as I think it is...is a windows tool that allows
>> someone to connect to one ftp, then connect to the other ftp...and
>> then say, FTP A, copy stuff to FTP B....then all you have to do is sit
>> back and let the data packets flow...it doesn't go through your system
>> at all: so you could transfer information at any speed, only limited
>> by the two ftp servers, not by your own connection.
>>
>> *shrug* is there a linux equivalent to this tool/protocall?
>>
>> Take care,
>> Sina
>>
>> No trees were destroyed in sending this message; however, a large
>> number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca
>> [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
>> On Behalf Of Chuck Hallenbeck
>> Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 8:51 PM
>> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
>> Subject: Re: Linux and data storage?
>>
>> Karen,
>>
>> You have two bottlenecks, seems to me. One is your connection speed,
>> the other is nettamer. You can use "tar" on your ISP's system to
>> aggregate those precious files into one archive, assuming you have the
>> space, and then move that archive somewhere. Nettamer could retrieve
>> it with its ftp facility, but it might take forever over a dialup link.
>>
>> If you had a linux desktop, you could use an ftp client on your
>> desktop, call it "system A", to move files from "system B" to "system
>> C", assuming you had the necessary access permissions and such.
>>
>> Also, you could email stuff to yourself with attachments, although
>> nettamer is a little weird about attachments, and then you have filesize
> limits.
>>
>> Finally, if you had a Linux desktop and a high speed connection you
>> would be home free. Just grab all those files quickly with an FTP
>> client, move them to your desktop, and burn them to a CD if you need to.
>>
>> My Linux system uses two 40 GB disks, one of which is used extensively
>> to backup stuff on the other. Not exactly a raid system, but heavily
> redundant.
>> I do use CD backups too once in a blue moon.
>>
>> Your DOS desktop has limited HD storage. A Linux desktop would not. I
>> have a DOS partition of 500 MB on each of my two 40 GB hard discs,
>> just in case, but have not booted into DOS in several years. For my
>> own situation, I cannot imagine ever being able (psychologically) to
>> return to DOS and Nettamer.
>>
>> Chuck
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

RE: Linux and data storage?

[Hart Larry]

I agree with Karen, these last 30 hours on Shellworld should be a wakeup call 
for all of us.  While we have our files-and-data back again, I should really 
consider eventually handling pine and all the features of a shell right here 
locally.  I suppose however, if I were running some mail server software, I 
would almost never be able to boot the machine in to windows to run openbook, 
as the mail server would not be collecting incoming messages?
Back in January, when I left CTS, another shell provider, I tried downloading 
everything, but I may not have it all.  I was thinking earlier that I was going 
to have to move items around.  Last night we tried logging in to cts, but I 
think they are gone?
Hart

Re: Linux and data storage?

[doc]

Looking for tips on how to install rpm programs.
Doc Wright
http://wrightplaceinc.net
If we can't look at ourselves, and ask, why?
then where does the learning start?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@shellworld.net>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 6:23 PM
Subject: Linux and data storage?


Hi all,
This is an odd one, so I hope I ask it in such a way to make sense.
I do not have a Linux machine.  I have been trying to get this, and
thought I had one in the he works but it seems that party either made up the
machines they were offering, or  for some other reason is not coming
through.
In any case, I do use a Linux shell service extensively.  I fear almost
too extensively, as you will understand in a moment.
The OS on the system i use mostly is dos, and I use nettamer to telnet to
my Linux shell.
In the workspace of my shell service i have a great deal of irreplaceable
files and programs.  I eave them up here, for ease, but I just was
reminded that this may be a venerable state of affairs.
Fortunately when the server went down nothing was lost or so it seems, but
I have a serious factor to consider.
  My question has two parts.
first, is there a way to move large amounts of data stored in the
workspace of a Linux shell service to another location in tact, with
relative ease,  and without taking all of the data on the entire system?
second, if my machine was also a Linux one, would this kind of storage be
easy to do?
As I said before I do not have such a machine, but this has shaken me up
enough that if a full Linux or Linux/dos or Linux/windows machine would
give me some firm safe backup, I will have to start advertising for
someone to build this for me and encurl the expense.
  I have too busy a professional life to do this myself, and would rather
pay someone with the skills than lose valuable time trying to re-invent the
wheel.
Thanks,
Karen


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Linux and data storage?

[nick G]

The Tool itself is called FlashFXP.  FXP is the protacall.
Thanks,
Nick
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@nc.rr.com>
To: "'Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.'" 
<speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 9:01 PM
Subject: RE: Linux and data storage?


> If I may humbly suggest?
>
> Fxp, or flash xp as I think it is...is a windows tool that allows someone 
> to
> connect to one ftp, then connect to the other ftp...and then say, FTP A,
> copy stuff to FTP B....then all you have to do is sit back and let the 
> data
> packets flow...it doesn't go through your system at all: so you could
> transfer information at any speed, only limited by the two ftp servers, 
> not
> by your own connection.
>
> *shrug* is there a linux equivalent to this tool/protocall?
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
> No trees were destroyed in sending this message; however, a large number 
> of
> electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca 
> [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
> On Behalf Of Chuck Hallenbeck
> Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 8:51 PM
> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> Subject: Re: Linux and data storage?
>
> Karen,
>
> You have two bottlenecks, seems to me. One is your connection speed, the
> other is nettamer. You can use "tar" on your ISP's system to aggregate 
> those
> precious files into one archive, assuming you have the space, and then 
> move
> that archive somewhere. Nettamer could retrieve it with its ftp facility,
> but it might take forever over a dialup link.
>
> If you had a linux desktop, you could use an ftp client on your desktop,
> call it "system A", to move files from "system B" to "system C", assuming
> you had the necessary access permissions and such.
>
> Also, you could email stuff to yourself with attachments, although 
> nettamer
> is a little weird about attachments, and then you have filesize limits.
>
> Finally, if you had a Linux desktop and a high speed connection you would 
> be
> home free. Just grab all those files quickly with an FTP client, move them
> to your desktop, and burn them to a CD if you need to.
>
> My Linux system uses two 40 GB disks, one of which is used extensively to
> backup stuff on the other. Not exactly a raid system, but heavily 
> redundant.
> I do use CD backups too once in a blue moon.
>
> Your DOS desktop has limited HD storage. A Linux desktop would not. I have 
> a
> DOS partition of 500 MB on each of my two 40 GB hard discs, just in case,
> but have not booted into DOS in several years. For my own situation, I
> cannot imagine ever being able (psychologically) to return to DOS and
> Nettamer.
>
> Chuck
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Luke Davis]

On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, doc wrote:

> Looking for tips on how to install rpm programs.

With the RPM program.  It comes with Redhat.  If you don't have Redhat, 
look into alien.

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Terry D. Cudney]

Hi Karen, Larry, et al,

	To answer your original question, Karen, if you get your linux machine up and running you can use 'rsync' to transfer selective file/directory/sub-directoies to/from the shell account to your linux box. That is, if the shellworld machine has 'rsync' available.

	For your question Larry, if you want to dual boot between  Linux and another OS you can do that easily using one of the boot managers (lilo or grub). If you are worried about losing mail while in the other OS, just let your ISP spool the mail while you are not up in Linux. You can do that by using a pop retrieval program like 'fetchmail' to retrieve mail periodically from your isp, or just put a '.forward' file in the home directory of your shell account to push mail to your mta (exim or whichever you like). You then just rename the .forward file to something else while booted to the other os on your local machine. Mail then waits in your mailbox on the ISP until you enable forwarding again.

	There are just so many ways to do things in Linux! As others have mentioned, ftp, local redundancy, various backup methods, etc. It is very much worth the effort to move to Linux... <grin>

	HTH,

	--terry

On Sun, Sep 26, 2004 at 06:36:58PM -0700, Hart Larry wrote:
> I agree with Karen, these last 30 hours on Shellworld should be a wakeup 
> call for all of us.  While we have our files-and-data back again, I should 
> really consider eventually handling pine and all the features of a shell 
> right here locally.  I suppose however, if I were running some mail server 
> software, I would almost never be able to boot the machine in to windows to 
> run openbook, as the mail server would not be collecting incoming messages?
> Back in January, when I left CTS, another shell provider, I tried 
> downloading everything, but I may not have it all.  I was thinking earlier 
> that I was going to have to move items around.  Last night we tried logging 
> in to cts, but I think they are gone?
> Hart
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 

Name:	Terry D. Cudney
Phone:	(705) 422-0039
E-mail:	terry@wasaga.dyns.net

Having a smoking section in a restaurant is like...
having a peeing sectionin a swimming pool.

Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Karen Lewellen]

Thanks, but i have no Linux machine to get up and running.
I have the promise of Linux machine that has not materialized, and no new 
source for such a machine.
anyone do Linux config system setup work?
Karen

On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, Terry D. Cudney wrote:

> Hi Karen, Larry, et al,
>
> 	To answer your original question, Karen, if you get your linux machine up and running you can use 'rsync' to transfer selective file/directory/sub-directoies to/from the shell account to your linux box. That is, if the shellworld machine has 'rsync' available.
>
> 	For your question Larry, if you want to dual boot between  Linux and another OS you can do that easily using one of the boot managers (lilo or grub). If you are worried about losing mail while in the other OS, just let your ISP spool the mail while you are not up in Linux. You can do that by using a pop retrieval program like 'fetchmail' to retrieve mail periodically from your isp, or just put a '.forward' file in the home directory of your shell account to push mail to your mta (exim or whichever you like). You then just rename the .forward file to something else while booted to the other os on your local machine. Mail then waits in your mailbox on the ISP until you enable forwarding again.
>
> 	There are just so many ways to do things in Linux! As others have mentioned, ftp, local redundancy, various backup methods, etc. It is very much worth the effort to move to Linux... <grin>
>
> 	HTH,
>
> 	--terry
>
> On Sun, Sep 26, 2004 at 06:36:58PM -0700, Hart Larry wrote:
>> I agree with Karen, these last 30 hours on Shellworld should be a wakeup
>> call for all of us.  While we have our files-and-data back again, I should
>> really consider eventually handling pine and all the features of a shell
>> right here locally.  I suppose however, if I were running some mail server
>> software, I would almost never be able to boot the machine in to windows to
>> run openbook, as the mail server would not be collecting incoming messages?
>> Back in January, when I left CTS, another shell provider, I tried
>> downloading everything, but I may not have it all.  I was thinking earlier
>> that I was going to have to move items around.  Last night we tried logging
>> in to cts, but I think they are gone?
>> Hart
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> -- 
>
> Name:	Terry D. Cudney
> Phone:	(705) 422-0039
> E-mail:	terry@wasaga.dyns.net
>
> Having a smoking section in a restaurant is like...
> having a peeing sectionin a swimming pool.
>
> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

RE: Linux and data storage?

[Sina Bahram]

There ya go....

Then is there a linux tool that can do fxp for her?

 Take care,
Sina

No trees were destroyed in sending this message; however, a large number of
electrons were terribly inconvenienced. 
-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of nick G
Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 9:58 PM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: Linux and data storage?

The Tool itself is called FlashFXP.  FXP is the protacall.
Thanks,
Nick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@nc.rr.com>
To: "'Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.'" 
<speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 9:01 PM
Subject: RE: Linux and data storage?


> If I may humbly suggest?
>
> Fxp, or flash xp as I think it is...is a windows tool that allows someone 
> to
> connect to one ftp, then connect to the other ftp...and then say, FTP A,
> copy stuff to FTP B....then all you have to do is sit back and let the 
> data
> packets flow...it doesn't go through your system at all: so you could
> transfer information at any speed, only limited by the two ftp servers, 
> not
> by your own connection.
>
> *shrug* is there a linux equivalent to this tool/protocall?
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
> No trees were destroyed in sending this message; however, a large number 
> of
> electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca 
> [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
> On Behalf Of Chuck Hallenbeck
> Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 8:51 PM
> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> Subject: Re: Linux and data storage?
>
> Karen,
>
> You have two bottlenecks, seems to me. One is your connection speed, the
> other is nettamer. You can use "tar" on your ISP's system to aggregate 
> those
> precious files into one archive, assuming you have the space, and then 
> move
> that archive somewhere. Nettamer could retrieve it with its ftp facility,
> but it might take forever over a dialup link.
>
> If you had a linux desktop, you could use an ftp client on your desktop,
> call it "system A", to move files from "system B" to "system C", assuming
> you had the necessary access permissions and such.
>
> Also, you could email stuff to yourself with attachments, although 
> nettamer
> is a little weird about attachments, and then you have filesize limits.
>
> Finally, if you had a Linux desktop and a high speed connection you would 
> be
> home free. Just grab all those files quickly with an FTP client, move them
> to your desktop, and burn them to a CD if you need to.
>
> My Linux system uses two 40 GB disks, one of which is used extensively to
> backup stuff on the other. Not exactly a raid system, but heavily 
> redundant.
> I do use CD backups too once in a blue moon.
>
> Your DOS desktop has limited HD storage. A Linux desktop would not. I have

> a
> DOS partition of 500 MB on each of my two 40 GB hard discs, just in case,
> but have not booted into DOS in several years. For my own situation, I
> cannot imagine ever being able (psychologically) to return to DOS and
> Nettamer.
>
> Chuck
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Terry D. Cudney]

Hi Karen,

	Well, if you have a machine running DOS now, you have a machine that almost certainly would run Linux. The only two criteria that I can think of are 1) sufficient disk space to dual boot between Linux and your current OS and 2) a hardware synth that works with speakup.. For several years I ran Linux and Windows on one machine, booting Windows less and less often until recently I got rid of Windows on that machine altogether. Yes I do have another machine with Windows on it now but I didn't have a second machine for several years.

	You did say that you don't have the time to set up Linux. I understand that. It does take time to setup/learn. But you don't have to abandon your other os while you  do it. The time spent to learn to install/configure/manage your linux system is time that will pay rich dividends in the long run. On the other hand if you have someone else install/configure for you you still won't know how it works to be able to manage the system on a day-to-day basis.

	I guess it depends on what yu want. If you want to use the power of Linux, you need to know how it works to some degree at least. You really learn that by doing your own installation and configuration.

	If you or anyone wants to install linux on any system for personal use,  my suggestion  is to do the homework first, reading about the options available, methods of installation for your chosen linux distribution, etc. When you feel that you understand what you have to do, then go for it. the actual installation should easily be completed in an evening, after which you should still have your other os available if you want it.

	As I said above though, it depends on what you want... If you really want Linux that is the best way to go. If it's too much bother for you, then probably it's not worth your time and just carry on with what you have already.

	HTH,

	--terry

-- 

Name:	Terry D. Cudney
Phone:	(705) 422-0039
E-mail:	terry@wasaga.dyns.net

Having a smoking section in a restaurant is like...
having a peeing sectionin a swimming pool.

Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Hart Larry]

Well Terry, you are absolutely right.  First of all Karen could use dosemu 
while in linux.  Gee, I wish I could better run that?
Next, you see that the first 2 years I was running DOS, I was just typing 
commands.  I had very little idea what they meant or how you use them in other 
areas.  Well, then in 1995 I got a shell account, but I knew nothing about 
unix.  I actually thought it should be declared a swear-word.  I feel much 
differently today.
Last October 2 friends installed linux--and certainly the machine is lots more 
stable than the every other day crashes in windows.
Sure I still have plenty of outstanding issues, but basicly I would love to 
find a live interactive linux class where I can learn the basics--and 
eventually configure-and-installing programs, without as much handholding.
A live instructor would be the best
Thanks from Southern Cal
Hart

games

[doc]

Are there any games available for linux?
Doc Wright
http://wrightplaceinc.net
If we can't look at ourselves, and ask, why?
then where does the learning start?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Hart Larry" <chime@hubert-humphrey.com>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: Linux and data storage?


Well Terry, you are absolutely right.  First of all Karen could use dosemu
while in linux.  Gee, I wish I could better run that?
Next, you see that the first 2 years I was running DOS, I was just typing
commands.  I had very little idea what they meant or how you use them in
other
areas.  Well, then in 1995 I got a shell account, but I knew nothing about
unix.  I actually thought it should be declared a swear-word.  I feel much
differently today.
Last October 2 friends installed linux--and certainly the machine is lots
more
stable than the every other day crashes in windows.
Sure I still have plenty of outstanding issues, but basicly I would love to
find a live interactive linux class where I can learn the basics--and
eventually configure-and-installing programs, without as much handholding.
A live instructor would be the best
Thanks from Southern Cal
Hart


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: games

[Jayson Smith]

If you're talking about console games, there's a collection of games called
BSD Games.  In Gentoo, the package name is bsd-games I think.  Other
distributions probably have their own packages for it.  I think with Debian
they are automatically installed.  Some are less usable by a blind person
than others, but there are such classics as "Hunt the Wumpus" and "Advent",
as well as a very usable monopoly game called monop.
Jayson.

----- Original Message -----
From: "doc" <talmidim@wrightplaceinc.net>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 11:59 PM
Subject: games


> Are there any games available for linux?
> Doc Wright
> http://wrightplaceinc.net
> If we can't look at ourselves, and ask, why?
> then where does the learning start?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Hart Larry" <chime@hubert-humphrey.com>
> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
<speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 9:35 PM
> Subject: Re: Linux and data storage?
>
>
> Well Terry, you are absolutely right.  First of all Karen could use dosemu
> while in linux.  Gee, I wish I could better run that?
> Next, you see that the first 2 years I was running DOS, I was just typing
> commands.  I had very little idea what they meant or how you use them in
> other
> areas.  Well, then in 1995 I got a shell account, but I knew nothing about
> unix.  I actually thought it should be declared a swear-word.  I feel much
> differently today.
> Last October 2 friends installed linux--and certainly the machine is lots
> more
> stable than the every other day crashes in windows.
> Sure I still have plenty of outstanding issues, but basicly I would love
to
> find a live interactive linux class where I can learn the basics--and
> eventually configure-and-installing programs, without as much handholding.
> A live instructor would be the best
> Thanks from Southern Cal
> Hart
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: games

[Gregory Nowak]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Yes, try the bsd games collection package, assuming your distribution
comes with it. Slackware does come with it in the I believe y series,
if you're using slackware.

Greg


On Sun, Sep 26, 2004 at 09:59:49PM -0600, doc wrote:
> Are there any games available for linux?
> Doc Wright
> http://wrightplaceinc.net
> If we can't look at ourselves, and ask, why?
> then where does the learning start?
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Hart Larry" <chime@hubert-humphrey.com>
> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 9:35 PM
> Subject: Re: Linux and data storage?
> 
> 
> Well Terry, you are absolutely right.  First of all Karen could use dosemu
> while in linux.  Gee, I wish I could better run that?
> Next, you see that the first 2 years I was running DOS, I was just typing
> commands.  I had very little idea what they meant or how you use them in
> other
> areas.  Well, then in 1995 I got a shell account, but I knew nothing about
> unix.  I actually thought it should be declared a swear-word.  I feel much
> differently today.
> Last October 2 friends installed linux--and certainly the machine is lots
> more
> stable than the every other day crashes in windows.
> Sure I still have plenty of outstanding issues, but basicly I would love to
> find a live interactive linux class where I can learn the basics--and
> eventually configure-and-installing programs, without as much handholding.
> A live instructor would be the best
> Thanks from Southern Cal
> Hart
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> !DSPAM:41579046155365741049749!
> 
> 

- -- 
Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org
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Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFBV5je7s9z/XlyUyARAvYkAJ4u5X/ZYzWzpF+pIGyab3mv3bGQPgCfcOio
sdRBCvrscwNtdSdL0l8YgGs=
=Qhhz
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

I have to disagree in part here, Terry.  I had help in installing my
linux system, and although I've learned a great deal in the past few
years, when I started, I knew very little but I learned as I went.  I
do admit that learning administration after the fact may not be the
best way to go, but it does work.  

I suggest that you do two things.  First, do the reading that Terry
suggests.  That's one good thing about Linux, there's lots and lots of
documentation. 

Then, I suggest you contact your Linux Users Group and see if someone
can work with you to get a machine up and running.  

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  
Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Janina Sajka]

Hi, Karen:

You don't say how much data you have there? Issue the following command
from your home directory to find out how much data you have:

du -ms .

It will give you a number in megabytes. It may take some time to run.

Now, to your question. You ask whether it would be easy. Well, yes, it
might be, or it might not be.

It's not likely to be pleasant to move copious amounts of data over a
dial up modem connection, but there are easy technologies that can
insure you get a true copy even if it takes some time to accomplish.

I'm thinking of rsync.

And, yes, you are on the right track. Hardware and software can be
replaced. One's work/data files cannot be so readily replaced. So, it is
wise to have one's important data in two physical clocations.

But let's start out by defining how much "a lot" is.

Karen Lewellen writes:
> Hi all,
> This is an odd one, so I hope I ask it in such a way to make sense.
> I do not have a Linux machine.  I have been trying to get this, and 
> thought I had one in the he works but it seems that party either made up 
> the machines they were offering, or  for some other reason is not coming 
> through.
> In any case, I do use a Linux shell service extensively.  I fear almost 
> too extensively, as you will understand in a moment.
> The OS on the system i use mostly is dos, and I use nettamer to telnet to 
> my Linux shell.
> In the workspace of my shell service i have a great deal of irreplaceable 
> files and programs.  I eave them up here, for ease, but I just was 
> reminded that this may be a venerable state of affairs.
> Fortunately when the server went down nothing was lost or so it seems, but 
> I have a serious factor to consider.
>  My question has two parts.
> first, is there a way to move large amounts of data stored in the 
> workspace of a Linux shell service to another location in tact, with 
> relative ease,  and without taking all of the data on the entire system?
> second, if my machine was also a Linux one, would this kind of storage be 
> easy to do?
> As I said before I do not have such a machine, but this has shaken me up 
> enough that if a full Linux or Linux/dos or Linux/windows machine would 
> give me some firm safe backup, I will have to start advertising for 
> someone to build this for me and encurl the expense.
>  I have too busy a professional life to do this myself, and would rather 
> pay someone with the skills than lose valuable time trying to re-invent the 
> wheel.
> Thanks,
> Karen
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Chair
				Accessibility Workgroup
				Free Standards Group (FSG)

janina@freestandards.org	Phone: +1 202.494.7040

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Janina Sajka]

I don't know specifically about her shell provider, but it would be
customary that she could build her .tar.bz2 archive under /tmp and then
rscync it off.

I'm willing to bet, though, that she has far less than a CD ROM's worth
of data. Perhaps we'll soon see.

Chuck Hallenbeck writes:
> Karen,
> 
> You have two bottlenecks, seems to me. One is your connection speed, the
> other is nettamer. You can use "tar" on your ISP's system to aggregate
> those precious files into one archive, assuming you have the space, and
> then move that archive somewhere. Nettamer could retrieve it with its
> ftp facility, but it might take forever over a dialup link.
> 
> If you had a linux desktop, you could use an ftp client on your desktop,
> call it "system A", to move files from "system B" to "system C",
> assuming you had the necessary access permissions and such.
> 
> Also, you could email stuff to yourself with attachments, although
> nettamer is a little weird about attachments, and then you have filesize
> limits.
> 
> Finally, if you had a Linux desktop and a high speed connection you
> would be home free. Just grab all those files quickly with an FTP
> client, move them to your desktop, and burn them to a CD if you need to.
> 
> My Linux system uses two 40 GB disks, one of which is used extensively
> to backup stuff on the other. Not exactly a raid system, but heavily
> redundant. I do use CD backups too once in a blue moon.
> 
> Your DOS desktop has limited HD storage. A Linux desktop would not. I
> have a DOS partition of 500 MB on each of my two 40 GB hard discs, just
> in case, but have not booted into DOS in several years. For my own
> situation, I cannot imagine ever being able (psychologically) to return
> to DOS and Nettamer.
> 
> Chuck
> 
> 
> On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, Karen Lewellen wrote:
> 
> >Hi all,
> >This is an odd one, so I hope I ask it in such a way to make sense.
> >I do not have a Linux machine.  I have been trying to get this, and 
> >thought I had one in the he works but it seems that party either made up 
> >the machines they were offering, or  for some other reason is not coming 
> >through.
> >In any case, I do use a Linux shell service extensively.  I fear almost 
> >too extensively, as you will understand in a moment.
> >The OS on the system i use mostly is dos, and I use nettamer to telnet to 
> >my Linux shell.
> >In the workspace of my shell service i have a great deal of irreplaceable 
> >files and programs.  I eave them up here, for ease, but I just was 
> >reminded that this may be a venerable state of affairs.
> >Fortunately when the server went down nothing was lost or so it seems, but 
> >I have a serious factor to consider.
> >My question has two parts.
> >first, is there a way to move large amounts of data stored in the 
> >workspace of a Linux shell service to another location in tact, with 
> >relative ease, and without taking all of the data on the entire system?
> >second, if my machine was also a Linux one, would this kind of storage be 
> >easy to do?
> >As I said before I do not have such a machine, but this has shaken me up 
> >enough that if a full Linux or Linux/dos or Linux/windows machine would 
> >give me some firm safe backup, I will have to start advertising for 
> >someone to build this for me and encurl the expense.
> >I have too busy a professional life to do this myself, and would rather 
> >pay someone with the skills than lose valuable time trying to re-invent 
> >the wheel.
> >Thanks,
> >Karen
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> -- 
> The Moon is Waxing Gibbous (97% of Full)
> Home page at http://www.mhcable.com/~chuckh
> Speakfreely address 24.105.197.112:2074
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Chair
				Accessibility Workgroup
				Free Standards Group (FSG)

janina@freestandards.org	Phone: +1 202.494.7040

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Janina Sajka]

What do you mean "Is there a Linux equivalent?"

Have you forgotten where networking was invented? It certainly wasn't
invented on Windows, Sina. Sheesh. What a question.

This is trivial on Linux. We've done it for years. There are several
ways to accomplish it.

Get a clue.

Sina Bahram writes:
> If I may humbly suggest?
> 
> Fxp, or flash xp as I think it is...is a windows tool that allows someone to
> connect to one ftp, then connect to the other ftp...and then say, FTP A,
> copy stuff to FTP B....then all you have to do is sit back and let the data
> packets flow...it doesn't go through your system at all: so you could
> transfer information at any speed, only limited by the two ftp servers, not
> by your own connection.
> 
> *shrug* is there a linux equivalent to this tool/protocall?
> 
> Take care,
> Sina
> 
> No trees were destroyed in sending this message; however, a large number of
> electrons were terribly inconvenienced. 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
> On Behalf Of Chuck Hallenbeck
> Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 8:51 PM
> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> Subject: Re: Linux and data storage?
> 
> Karen,
> 
> You have two bottlenecks, seems to me. One is your connection speed, the
> other is nettamer. You can use "tar" on your ISP's system to aggregate those
> precious files into one archive, assuming you have the space, and then move
> that archive somewhere. Nettamer could retrieve it with its ftp facility,
> but it might take forever over a dialup link.
> 
> If you had a linux desktop, you could use an ftp client on your desktop,
> call it "system A", to move files from "system B" to "system C", assuming
> you had the necessary access permissions and such.
> 
> Also, you could email stuff to yourself with attachments, although nettamer
> is a little weird about attachments, and then you have filesize limits.
> 
> Finally, if you had a Linux desktop and a high speed connection you would be
> home free. Just grab all those files quickly with an FTP client, move them
> to your desktop, and burn them to a CD if you need to.
> 
> My Linux system uses two 40 GB disks, one of which is used extensively to
> backup stuff on the other. Not exactly a raid system, but heavily redundant.
> I do use CD backups too once in a blue moon.
> 
> Your DOS desktop has limited HD storage. A Linux desktop would not. I have a
> DOS partition of 500 MB on each of my two 40 GB hard discs, just in case,
> but have not booted into DOS in several years. For my own situation, I
> cannot imagine ever being able (psychologically) to return to DOS and
> Nettamer.
> 
> Chuck
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Chair
				Accessibility Workgroup
				Free Standards Group (FSG)

janina@freestandards.org	Phone: +1 202.494.7040

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Janina Sajka]

If you have ftp access on two machines, forget Windows, and just log
into one. Launch a good ftp client like ncftp, start the transfer,
and go to bed.

You certainly don't need Windows.

PS: If you use ncftp you could even use bgget (or bgput) to run the
transfers in background, which means you could log off and your files
would still get transfered.

Now, does Windows have that? Huh, Sina?

Karen Lewellen writes:
> hmm,
> Let me be sure I follow you.
> This is a program that runs in windows, that would let me move the contents 
> of my shellworld workspace,  <i have ftp here too of course> to say the 
> storage on my website<where I also  have ftp,> and that is not located on 
> shellworld?
> if all this is true, where can i find this tool?
> Karen
> 
> On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, Sina Bahram wrote:
> 
> >If I may humbly suggest?
> >
> >Fxp, or flash xp as I think it is...is a windows tool that allows someone 
> >to
> >connect to one ftp, then connect to the other ftp...and then say, FTP A,
> >copy stuff to FTP B....then all you have to do is sit back and let the data
> >packets flow...it doesn't go through your system at all: so you could
> >transfer information at any speed, only limited by the two ftp servers, not
> >by your own connection.
> >
> >*shrug* is there a linux equivalent to this tool/protocall?
> >
> >Take care,
> >Sina
> >
> >No trees were destroyed in sending this message; however, a large number of
> >electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca 
> >[mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
> >On Behalf Of Chuck Hallenbeck
> >Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 8:51 PM
> >To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> >Subject: Re: Linux and data storage?
> >
> >Karen,
> >
> >You have two bottlenecks, seems to me. One is your connection speed, the
> >other is nettamer. You can use "tar" on your ISP's system to aggregate 
> >those
> >precious files into one archive, assuming you have the space, and then move
> >that archive somewhere. Nettamer could retrieve it with its ftp facility,
> >but it might take forever over a dialup link.
> >
> >If you had a linux desktop, you could use an ftp client on your desktop,
> >call it "system A", to move files from "system B" to "system C", assuming
> >you had the necessary access permissions and such.
> >
> >Also, you could email stuff to yourself with attachments, although nettamer
> >is a little weird about attachments, and then you have filesize limits.
> >
> >Finally, if you had a Linux desktop and a high speed connection you would 
> >be
> >home free. Just grab all those files quickly with an FTP client, move them
> >to your desktop, and burn them to a CD if you need to.
> >
> >My Linux system uses two 40 GB disks, one of which is used extensively to
> >backup stuff on the other. Not exactly a raid system, but heavily 
> >redundant.
> >I do use CD backups too once in a blue moon.
> >
> >Your DOS desktop has limited HD storage. A Linux desktop would not. I have 
> >a
> >DOS partition of 500 MB on each of my two 40 GB hard discs, just in case,
> >but have not booted into DOS in several years. For my own situation, I
> >cannot imagine ever being able (psychologically) to return to DOS and
> >Nettamer.
> >
> >Chuck
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Chair
				Accessibility Workgroup
				Free Standards Group (FSG)

janina@freestandards.org	Phone: +1 202.494.7040

RE: Linux and data storage?

[Sina Bahram]

Thank you for that ever so polite answer Janina *smile*

You are, as always, as helpful as ever.

Have a nice day.

Take care,
Sina

No trees were destroyed in sending this message; however, a large number of
electrons were terribly inconvenienced. 
-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of Janina Sajka
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 2:15 PM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: Linux and data storage?

What do you mean "Is there a Linux equivalent?"

Have you forgotten where networking was invented? It certainly wasn't
invented on Windows, Sina. Sheesh. What a question.

This is trivial on Linux. We've done it for years. There are several ways to
accomplish it.

Get a clue.

Sina Bahram writes:
> If I may humbly suggest?
> 
> Fxp, or flash xp as I think it is...is a windows tool that allows 
> someone to connect to one ftp, then connect to the other ftp...and 
> then say, FTP A, copy stuff to FTP B....then all you have to do is sit 
> back and let the data packets flow...it doesn't go through your system 
> at all: so you could transfer information at any speed, only limited 
> by the two ftp servers, not by your own connection.
> 
> *shrug* is there a linux equivalent to this tool/protocall?
> 
> Take care,
> Sina
> 
> No trees were destroyed in sending this message; however, a large 
> number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca 
> [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
> On Behalf Of Chuck Hallenbeck
> Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 8:51 PM
> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> Subject: Re: Linux and data storage?
> 
> Karen,
> 
> You have two bottlenecks, seems to me. One is your connection speed, 
> the other is nettamer. You can use "tar" on your ISP's system to 
> aggregate those precious files into one archive, assuming you have the 
> space, and then move that archive somewhere. Nettamer could retrieve 
> it with its ftp facility, but it might take forever over a dialup link.
> 
> If you had a linux desktop, you could use an ftp client on your 
> desktop, call it "system A", to move files from "system B" to "system 
> C", assuming you had the necessary access permissions and such.
> 
> Also, you could email stuff to yourself with attachments, although 
> nettamer is a little weird about attachments, and then you have filesize
limits.
> 
> Finally, if you had a Linux desktop and a high speed connection you 
> would be home free. Just grab all those files quickly with an FTP 
> client, move them to your desktop, and burn them to a CD if you need to.
> 
> My Linux system uses two 40 GB disks, one of which is used extensively 
> to backup stuff on the other. Not exactly a raid system, but heavily
redundant.
> I do use CD backups too once in a blue moon.
> 
> Your DOS desktop has limited HD storage. A Linux desktop would not. I 
> have a DOS partition of 500 MB on each of my two 40 GB hard discs, 
> just in case, but have not booted into DOS in several years. For my 
> own situation, I cannot imagine ever being able (psychologically) to 
> return to DOS and Nettamer.
> 
> Chuck
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Chair
				Accessibility Workgroup
				Free Standards Group (FSG)

janina@freestandards.org	Phone: +1 202.494.7040


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Janina Sajka]

I have two answers for you.

1.)	First I give you your fish:

rpm -iv [package-name].rpm

2.)	I teach you to fish:

rpm --help 2>&1 |more
man rpm

Or, go to the net and find a copy of Miximum RPM (freely available on
line) and bookmark it.

doc writes:
> Looking for tips on how to install rpm programs.
> Doc Wright
> http://wrightplaceinc.net
> If we can't look at ourselves, and ask, why?
> then where does the learning start?
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@shellworld.net>
> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 6:23 PM
> Subject: Linux and data storage?
> 
> 
> Hi all,
> This is an odd one, so I hope I ask it in such a way to make sense.
> I do not have a Linux machine.  I have been trying to get this, and
> thought I had one in the he works but it seems that party either made up the
> machines they were offering, or  for some other reason is not coming
> through.
> In any case, I do use a Linux shell service extensively.  I fear almost
> too extensively, as you will understand in a moment.
> The OS on the system i use mostly is dos, and I use nettamer to telnet to
> my Linux shell.
> In the workspace of my shell service i have a great deal of irreplaceable
> files and programs.  I eave them up here, for ease, but I just was
> reminded that this may be a venerable state of affairs.
> Fortunately when the server went down nothing was lost or so it seems, but
> I have a serious factor to consider.
>   My question has two parts.
> first, is there a way to move large amounts of data stored in the
> workspace of a Linux shell service to another location in tact, with
> relative ease,  and without taking all of the data on the entire system?
> second, if my machine was also a Linux one, would this kind of storage be
> easy to do?
> As I said before I do not have such a machine, but this has shaken me up
> enough that if a full Linux or Linux/dos or Linux/windows machine would
> give me some firm safe backup, I will have to start advertising for
> someone to build this for me and encurl the expense.
>   I have too busy a professional life to do this myself, and would rather
> pay someone with the skills than lose valuable time trying to re-invent the
> wheel.
> Thanks,
> Karen
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Chair
				Accessibility Workgroup
				Free Standards Group (FSG)

janina@freestandards.org	Phone: +1 202.494.7040

RE: Linux and data storage?

[Sina Bahram]

Hi Janina,

Actually there very well could be a Windows equivalent; not that I'd really
care if there is or isn't.

I wasn't suggesting that Windows was in any way, shape, or form needed here.
I said that there was a windows tool, which I mistakenly at first called fxp
rather than Flash XP. Then someone pointed out that fxp was the
protocall...and I sent a message asking for a Linux use of this so that she
can get her transfer complete.

In short...i've tried to be helpful, while you have in two separate emails
offered help in conjunction with criticism towards me for my suggestion,
which I did point out quite humbly, and secondly offered an extremely
immature and unbecoming attitude.

I do appologise to Karen for Janina's attitude. Karen, I wish you the best
of luck in getting your data transferred.

Take care,
Sina 

No trees were destroyed in sending this message; however, a large number of
electrons were terribly inconvenienced. 
-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of Janina Sajka
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 2:18 PM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: Linux and data storage?

If you have ftp access on two machines, forget Windows, and just log into
one. Launch a good ftp client like ncftp, start the transfer, and go to bed.

You certainly don't need Windows.

PS: If you use ncftp you could even use bgget (or bgput) to run the
transfers in background, which means you could log off and your files would
still get transfered.

Now, does Windows have that? Huh, Sina?

Karen Lewellen writes:
> hmm,
> Let me be sure I follow you.
> This is a program that runs in windows, that would let me move the 
> contents of my shellworld workspace,  <i have ftp here too of course> 
> to say the storage on my website<where I also  have ftp,> and that is 
> not located on shellworld?
> if all this is true, where can i find this tool?
> Karen
> 
> On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, Sina Bahram wrote:
> 
> >If I may humbly suggest?
> >
> >Fxp, or flash xp as I think it is...is a windows tool that allows 
> >someone to connect to one ftp, then connect to the other ftp...and 
> >then say, FTP A, copy stuff to FTP B....then all you have to do is 
> >sit back and let the data packets flow...it doesn't go through your 
> >system at all: so you could transfer information at any speed, only 
> >limited by the two ftp servers, not by your own connection.
> >
> >*shrug* is there a linux equivalent to this tool/protocall?
> >
> >Take care,
> >Sina
> >
> >No trees were destroyed in sending this message; however, a large 
> >number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Janina Sajka]

Frankly, Sina, I really don't care whether you like my posts or not.

Point is, your advice isn't very good in this instance, to put it
bluntly. 

Shell World already has all the tools shee needs. No need to go looking
for some application to install on some Windows machine.

There are times, Sinna, when bad help is less helpful than keeping
quiet. Frankly, I consider any advice that says "go get Windows" to be
pretty bad advice, especially on this list.

So, if you feel put upon by me, you should.


Sina Bahram writes:
> Thank you for that ever so polite answer Janina *smile*
> 
> You are, as always, as helpful as ever.
> 
> Have a nice day.
> 
> Take care,
> Sina
> 
> No trees were destroyed in sending this message; however, a large number of
> electrons were terribly inconvenienced. 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
> On Behalf Of Janina Sajka
> Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 2:15 PM
> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> Subject: Re: Linux and data storage?
> 
> What do you mean "Is there a Linux equivalent?"
> 
> Have you forgotten where networking was invented? It certainly wasn't
> invented on Windows, Sina. Sheesh. What a question.
> 
> This is trivial on Linux. We've done it for years. There are several ways to
> accomplish it.
> 
> Get a clue.
> 
> Sina Bahram writes:
> > If I may humbly suggest?
> > 
> > Fxp, or flash xp as I think it is...is a windows tool that allows 
> > someone to connect to one ftp, then connect to the other ftp...and 
> > then say, FTP A, copy stuff to FTP B....then all you have to do is sit 
> > back and let the data packets flow...it doesn't go through your system 
> > at all: so you could transfer information at any speed, only limited 
> > by the two ftp servers, not by your own connection.
> > 
> > *shrug* is there a linux equivalent to this tool/protocall?
> > 
> > Take care,
> > Sina
> > 
> > No trees were destroyed in sending this message; however, a large 
> > number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca 
> > [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
> > On Behalf Of Chuck Hallenbeck
> > Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 8:51 PM
> > To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> > Subject: Re: Linux and data storage?
> > 
> > Karen,
> > 
> > You have two bottlenecks, seems to me. One is your connection speed, 
> > the other is nettamer. You can use "tar" on your ISP's system to 
> > aggregate those precious files into one archive, assuming you have the 
> > space, and then move that archive somewhere. Nettamer could retrieve 
> > it with its ftp facility, but it might take forever over a dialup link.
> > 
> > If you had a linux desktop, you could use an ftp client on your 
> > desktop, call it "system A", to move files from "system B" to "system 
> > C", assuming you had the necessary access permissions and such.
> > 
> > Also, you could email stuff to yourself with attachments, although 
> > nettamer is a little weird about attachments, and then you have filesize
> limits.
> > 
> > Finally, if you had a Linux desktop and a high speed connection you 
> > would be home free. Just grab all those files quickly with an FTP 
> > client, move them to your desktop, and burn them to a CD if you need to.
> > 
> > My Linux system uses two 40 GB disks, one of which is used extensively 
> > to backup stuff on the other. Not exactly a raid system, but heavily
> redundant.
> > I do use CD backups too once in a blue moon.
> > 
> > Your DOS desktop has limited HD storage. A Linux desktop would not. I 
> > have a DOS partition of 500 MB on each of my two 40 GB hard discs, 
> > just in case, but have not booted into DOS in several years. For my 
> > own situation, I cannot imagine ever being able (psychologically) to 
> > return to DOS and Nettamer.
> > 
> > Chuck
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> -- 
> 	
> 				Janina Sajka, Chair
> 				Accessibility Workgroup
> 				Free Standards Group (FSG)
> 
> janina@freestandards.org	Phone: +1 202.494.7040
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Chair
				Accessibility Workgroup
				Free Standards Group (FSG)

janina@freestandards.org	Phone: +1 202.494.7040

RE: Linux and data storage?

[Sina Bahram]

Hi Janina,

Please point out where I recommended the installation of, the use of, the
installing upon, or any other permutation of Windows? I said I was familiar
with a Windows tool, and in fact...if you refer to my post: I asked for the
linux equivalent: for Karen, and also for my own edification.

Please explain where I recommended Windows?

Take care,
Sina

No trees were destroyed in sending this message; however, a large number of
electrons were terribly inconvenienced. 
-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of Janina Sajka
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 2:51 PM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: Linux and data storage?

Frankly, Sina, I really don't care whether you like my posts or not.

Point is, your advice isn't very good in this instance, to put it bluntly. 

Shell World already has all the tools shee needs. No need to go looking for
some application to install on some Windows machine.

There are times, Sinna, when bad help is less helpful than keeping quiet.
Frankly, I consider any advice that says "go get Windows" to be pretty bad
advice, especially on this list.

So, if you feel put upon by me, you should.


Sina Bahram writes:
> Thank you for that ever so polite answer Janina *smile*
> 
> You are, as always, as helpful as ever.
> 
> Have a nice day.
> 
> Take care,
> Sina
> 
> No trees were destroyed in sending this message; however, a large 
> number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca 
> [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
> On Behalf Of Janina Sajka
> Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 2:15 PM
> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> Subject: Re: Linux and data storage?
> 
> What do you mean "Is there a Linux equivalent?"
> 
> Have you forgotten where networking was invented? It certainly wasn't 
> invented on Windows, Sina. Sheesh. What a question.
> 
> This is trivial on Linux. We've done it for years. There are several 
> ways to accomplish it.
> 
> Get a clue.
> 
> Sina Bahram writes:
> > If I may humbly suggest?
> > 
> > Fxp, or flash xp as I think it is...is a windows tool that allows 
> > someone to connect to one ftp, then connect to the other ftp...and 
> > then say, FTP A, copy stuff to FTP B....then all you have to do is 
> > sit back and let the data packets flow...it doesn't go through your 
> > system at all: so you could transfer information at any speed, only 
> > limited by the two ftp servers, not by your own connection.
> > 
> > *shrug* is there a linux equivalent to this tool/protocall?
> > 
> > Take care,
> > Sina
> > 
> > No trees were destroyed in sending this message; however, a large 
> > number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

Re: Linux and data storage?

[doc]

Can you make ncftp secure and if so how?
Doc Wright
http://wrightplaceinc.net
If we can't look at ourselves, and ask, why?
then where does the learning start?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@rednote.net>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 12:17 PM
Subject: Re: Linux and data storage?


If you have ftp access on two machines, forget Windows, and just log
into one. Launch a good ftp client like ncftp, start the transfer,
and go to bed.

You certainly don't need Windows.

PS: If you use ncftp you could even use bgget (or bgput) to run the
transfers in background, which means you could log off and your files
would still get transfered.

Now, does Windows have that? Huh, Sina?

Karen Lewellen writes:
> hmm,
> Let me be sure I follow you.
> This is a program that runs in windows, that would let me move the
contents
> of my shellworld workspace,  <i have ftp here too of course> to say the
> storage on my website<where I also  have ftp,> and that is not located on
> shellworld?
> if all this is true, where can i find this tool?
> Karen
>
> On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, Sina Bahram wrote:
>
> >If I may humbly suggest?
> >
> >Fxp, or flash xp as I think it is...is a windows tool that allows someone
> >to
> >connect to one ftp, then connect to the other ftp...and then say, FTP A,
> >copy stuff to FTP B....then all you have to do is sit back and let the
data
> >packets flow...it doesn't go through your system at all: so you could
> >transfer information at any speed, only limited by the two ftp servers,
not
> >by your own connection.
> >
> >*shrug* is there a linux equivalent to this tool/protocall?
> >
> >Take care,
> >Sina
> >
> >No trees were destroyed in sending this message; however, a large number
of
> >electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca
> >[mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
> >On Behalf Of Chuck Hallenbeck
> >Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 8:51 PM
> >To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> >Subject: Re: Linux and data storage?
> >
> >Karen,
> >
> >You have two bottlenecks, seems to me. One is your connection speed, the
> >other is nettamer. You can use "tar" on your ISP's system to aggregate
> >those
> >precious files into one archive, assuming you have the space, and then
move
> >that archive somewhere. Nettamer could retrieve it with its ftp facility,
> >but it might take forever over a dialup link.
> >
> >If you had a linux desktop, you could use an ftp client on your desktop,
> >call it "system A", to move files from "system B" to "system C", assuming
> >you had the necessary access permissions and such.
> >
> >Also, you could email stuff to yourself with attachments, although
nettamer
> >is a little weird about attachments, and then you have filesize limits.
> >
> >Finally, if you had a Linux desktop and a high speed connection you would
> >be
> >home free. Just grab all those files quickly with an FTP client, move
them
> >to your desktop, and burn them to a CD if you need to.
> >
> >My Linux system uses two 40 GB disks, one of which is used extensively to
> >backup stuff on the other. Not exactly a raid system, but heavily
> >redundant.
> >I do use CD backups too once in a blue moon.
> >
> >Your DOS desktop has limited HD storage. A Linux desktop would not. I
have
> >a
> >DOS partition of 500 MB on each of my two 40 GB hard discs, just in case,
> >but have not booted into DOS in several years. For my own situation, I
> >cannot imagine ever being able (psychologically) to return to DOS and
> >Nettamer.
> >
> >Chuck
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 

Janina Sajka, Chair
Accessibility Workgroup
Free Standards Group (FSG)

janina@freestandards.org Phone: +1 202.494.7040


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Luke Davis]

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Luke Yelavich wrote:

> The tools I am thinking of, are the SSH suite of tools, particularly one 
> command being scp. This command allows you to copy data securely over a 
> network connection, by means of encryption.

sftp, might be a better option, for several files.

RE: Linux and data storage?

[Luke Davis]

Um, if you have FTP access on both, why would you need that tool?  Why not 
just telnet to Shellworld, from there FTP to your web server (sftp or scp 
or rsync would be better), and transfer the files directly?

  On Sun, 26 Sep 
2004, Karen Lewellen wrote:

> hmm,
> Let me be sure I follow you.
> This is a program that runs in windows, that would let me move the contents 
> of my shellworld workspace,  <i have ftp here too of course> to say the 
> storage on my website<where I also  have ftp,> and that is not located on 
> shellworld?
> if all this is true, where can i find this tool?
> Karen
>
> On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, Sina Bahram wrote:
>
>> If I may humbly suggest?
>> 
>> Fxp, or flash xp as I think it is...is a windows tool that allows someone 
>> to
>> connect to one ftp, then connect to the other ftp...and then say, FTP A,
>> copy stuff to FTP B....then all you have to do is sit back and let the 
>> data
>> packets flow...it doesn't go through your system at all: so you could
>> transfer information at any speed, only limited by the two ftp servers, 
>> not
>> by your own connection.
>> 
>> *shrug* is there a linux equivalent to this tool/protocall?
>> 
>> Take care,
>> Sina
>> 
>> No trees were destroyed in sending this message; however, a large number 
>> of
>> electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca 
>> [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
>> On Behalf Of Chuck Hallenbeck
>> Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 8:51 PM
>> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
>> Subject: Re: Linux and data storage?
>> 
>> Karen,
>> 
>> You have two bottlenecks, seems to me. One is your connection speed, the
>> other is nettamer. You can use "tar" on your ISP's system to aggregate 
>> those
>> precious files into one archive, assuming you have the space, and then 
>> move
>> that archive somewhere. Nettamer could retrieve it with its ftp facility,
>> but it might take forever over a dialup link.
>> 
>> If you had a linux desktop, you could use an ftp client on your desktop,
>> call it "system A", to move files from "system B" to "system C", assuming
>> you had the necessary access permissions and such.
>> 
>> Also, you could email stuff to yourself with attachments, although 
>> nettamer
>> is a little weird about attachments, and then you have filesize limits.
>> 
>> Finally, if you had a Linux desktop and a high speed connection you would 
>> be
>> home free. Just grab all those files quickly with an FTP client, move 
>> them
>> to your desktop, and burn them to a CD if you need to.
>> 
>> My Linux system uses two 40 GB disks, one of which is used extensively to
>> backup stuff on the other. Not exactly a raid system, but heavily 
>> redundant.
>> I do use CD backups too once in a blue moon.
>> 
>> Your DOS desktop has limited HD storage. A Linux desktop would not. I 
>> have a
>> DOS partition of 500 MB on each of my two 40 GB hard discs, just in case,
>> but have not booted into DOS in several years. For my own situation, I
>> cannot imagine ever being able (psychologically) to return to DOS and
>> Nettamer.
>> 
>> Chuck
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> 
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Karen Lewellen]

  Hi janina,
Perhaps you did not read all of my post, but again I only have one 
machine.
If the program suggested does not require my system, but does require 
windows, anyone living anywhere that I know an complete the task for me it 
seems.  but your suggestion involves my having two computers which I have 
said I do not have.
Karen

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:

> If you have ftp access on two machines, forget Windows, and just log
> into one. Launch a good ftp client like ncftp, start the transfer,
> and go to bed.
>
> You certainly don't need Windows.
>
> PS: If you use ncftp you could even use bgget (or bgput) to run the
> transfers in background, which means you could log off and your files
> would still get transfered.
>
> Now, does Windows have that? Huh, Sina?
>
> Karen Lewellen writes:
>> hmm,
>> Let me be sure I follow you.
>> This is a program that runs in windows, that would let me move the contents
>> of my shellworld workspace,  <i have ftp here too of course> to say the
>> storage on my website<where I also  have ftp,> and that is not located on
>> shellworld?
>> if all this is true, where can i find this tool?
>> Karen
>>
>> On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, Sina Bahram wrote:
>>
>>> If I may humbly suggest?
>>>
>>> Fxp, or flash xp as I think it is...is a windows tool that allows someone
>>> to
>>> connect to one ftp, then connect to the other ftp...and then say, FTP A,
>>> copy stuff to FTP B....then all you have to do is sit back and let the data
>>> packets flow...it doesn't go through your system at all: so you could
>>> transfer information at any speed, only limited by the two ftp servers, not
>>> by your own connection.
>>>
>>> *shrug* is there a linux equivalent to this tool/protocall?
>>>
>>> Take care,
>>> Sina
>>>
>>> No trees were destroyed in sending this message; however, a large number of
>>> electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca
>>> [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
>>> On Behalf Of Chuck Hallenbeck
>>> Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 8:51 PM
>>> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
>>> Subject: Re: Linux and data storage?
>>>
>>> Karen,
>>>
>>> You have two bottlenecks, seems to me. One is your connection speed, the
>>> other is nettamer. You can use "tar" on your ISP's system to aggregate
>>> those
>>> precious files into one archive, assuming you have the space, and then move
>>> that archive somewhere. Nettamer could retrieve it with its ftp facility,
>>> but it might take forever over a dialup link.
>>>
>>> If you had a linux desktop, you could use an ftp client on your desktop,
>>> call it "system A", to move files from "system B" to "system C", assuming
>>> you had the necessary access permissions and such.
>>>
>>> Also, you could email stuff to yourself with attachments, although nettamer
>>> is a little weird about attachments, and then you have filesize limits.
>>>
>>> Finally, if you had a Linux desktop and a high speed connection you would
>>> be
>>> home free. Just grab all those files quickly with an FTP client, move them
>>> to your desktop, and burn them to a CD if you need to.
>>>
>>> My Linux system uses two 40 GB disks, one of which is used extensively to
>>> backup stuff on the other. Not exactly a raid system, but heavily
>>> redundant.
>>> I do use CD backups too once in a blue moon.
>>>
>>> Your DOS desktop has limited HD storage. A Linux desktop would not. I have
>>> a
>>> DOS partition of 500 MB on each of my two 40 GB hard discs, just in case,
>>> but have not booted into DOS in several years. For my own situation, I
>>> cannot imagine ever being able (psychologically) to return to DOS and
>>> Nettamer.
>>>
>>> Chuck
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> -- 
>
> 				Janina Sajka, Chair
> 				Accessibility Workgroup
> 				Free Standards Group (FSG)
>
> janina@freestandards.org	Phone: +1 202.494.7040
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Luke Davis]

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:

> You don't say how much data you have there? Issue the following command
> from your home directory to find out how much data you have:
> du -ms .

-m is not a supported option under the du provided with FreeBSD, which is 
what Shellworld is running, assuming that is the ISP she is talking about.

-h should probably work for the same effect.

Luke

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Janina Sajka]

Sina Bahram writes:
> Hi Janina,
> 
> Please point out where I recommended the installation of, the use of, the
> installing upon, or any other permutation of Windows? I said I was
> familiar

No, that's not what you said. Your words exactly:

"If I may humbly suggest?

Sounds like a recommendation to me.

Find your message at:

http://braille.uwo.ca/pipermail/speakup/2004-September/030120.html

You may want to spin it differently now that you've been challenged on
it, but I'm not going to continue down this road with you because it's
fruitless. It's not my point to piss you off. As I said, bad advice is
often worse than no advice at all. The above referenced email is clearly
a suggestion for a particular tool. It may be sufficient for the task,
but it's by no means the best, or even the only choice. If you don't
know a Linux answer on a Linux list, perhaps you might wait and learn
something rather than hijacking the thread and the list.

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi again
Thanks for the command!
I will want to know this regardless, and am guessing, I hope correctly, 
that it is only my home directory, not the data stored in pine for me.
Thanks again,
Karen

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:

> Hi, Karen:
>
> You don't say how much data you have there? Issue the following command
> from your home directory to find out how much data you have:
>
> du -ms .
>
> It will give you a number in megabytes. It may take some time to run.
>
> Now, to your question. You ask whether it would be easy. Well, yes, it
> might be, or it might not be.
>
> It's not likely to be pleasant to move copious amounts of data over a
> dial up modem connection, but there are easy technologies that can
> insure you get a true copy even if it takes some time to accomplish.
>
> I'm thinking of rsync.
>
> And, yes, you are on the right track. Hardware and software can be
> replaced. One's work/data files cannot be so readily replaced. So, it is
> wise to have one's important data in two physical clocations.
>
> But let's start out by defining how much "a lot" is.
>
> Karen Lewellen writes:
>> Hi all,
>> This is an odd one, so I hope I ask it in such a way to make sense.
>> I do not have a Linux machine.  I have been trying to get this, and
>> thought I had one in the he works but it seems that party either made up
>> the machines they were offering, or  for some other reason is not coming
>> through.
>> In any case, I do use a Linux shell service extensively.  I fear almost
>> too extensively, as you will understand in a moment.
>> The OS on the system i use mostly is dos, and I use nettamer to telnet to
>> my Linux shell.
>> In the workspace of my shell service i have a great deal of irreplaceable
>> files and programs.  I eave them up here, for ease, but I just was
>> reminded that this may be a venerable state of affairs.
>> Fortunately when the server went down nothing was lost or so it seems, but
>> I have a serious factor to consider.
>>  My question has two parts.
>> first, is there a way to move large amounts of data stored in the
>> workspace of a Linux shell service to another location in tact, with
>> relative ease,  and without taking all of the data on the entire system?
>> second, if my machine was also a Linux one, would this kind of storage be
>> easy to do?
>> As I said before I do not have such a machine, but this has shaken me up
>> enough that if a full Linux or Linux/dos or Linux/windows machine would
>> give me some firm safe backup, I will have to start advertising for
>> someone to build this for me and encurl the expense.
>>  I have too busy a professional life to do this myself, and would rather
>> pay someone with the skills than lose valuable time trying to re-invent the
>> wheel.
>> Thanks,
>> Karen
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> -- 
>
> 				Janina Sajka, Chair
> 				Accessibility Workgroup
> 				Free Standards Group (FSG)
>
> janina@freestandards.org	Phone: +1 202.494.7040
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Janina Sajka]

No, you can't, not in any useful way.

However, I'm not aware that security is the largest concern here. We're
talking about a one time file transfer. I would certainly not suggest
ncftp for regular use backing up data because the password does get sent
in the clear.

Frankly, building the .tar.bz2 file in /tmp might be considered
insecure, as anyone might get at it there.

The background transfer of ncftp is a very nic feature, though. You can
get similar securely with nohup and scp or rsync.

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Janina Sajka]

Exactly why I'm on Sinna's case about this. He's clouded and confused
things.

Luke Davis writes:
> Um, if you have FTP access on both, why would you need that tool?  Why not 
> just telnet to Shellworld, from there FTP to your web server (sftp or scp 
> or rsync would be better), and transfer the files directly?
> 
>  On Sun, 26 Sep 
> 2004, Karen Lewellen wrote:
> 
> >hmm,
> >Let me be sure I follow you.
> >This is a program that runs in windows, that would let me move the 
> >contents of my shellworld workspace,  <i have ftp here too of course> to 
> >say the storage on my website<where I also  have ftp,> and that is not 
> >located on shellworld?
> >if all this is true, where can i find this tool?
> >Karen
> >
> >On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, Sina Bahram wrote:
> >
> >>If I may humbly suggest?
> >>
> >>Fxp, or flash xp as I think it is...is a windows tool that allows someone 
> >>to
> >>connect to one ftp, then connect to the other ftp...and then say, FTP A,
> >>copy stuff to FTP B....then all you have to do is sit back and let the 
> >>data
> >>packets flow...it doesn't go through your system at all: so you could
> >>transfer information at any speed, only limited by the two ftp servers, 
> >>not
> >>by your own connection.
> >>
> >>*shrug* is there a linux equivalent to this tool/protocall?
> >>
> >>Take care,
> >>Sina
> >>
> >>No trees were destroyed in sending this message; however, a large number 
> >>of
> >>electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca 
> >>[mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
> >>On Behalf Of Chuck Hallenbeck
> >>Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 8:51 PM
> >>To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> >>Subject: Re: Linux and data storage?
> >>
> >>Karen,
> >>
> >>You have two bottlenecks, seems to me. One is your connection speed, the
> >>other is nettamer. You can use "tar" on your ISP's system to aggregate 
> >>those
> >>precious files into one archive, assuming you have the space, and then 
> >>move
> >>that archive somewhere. Nettamer could retrieve it with its ftp facility,
> >>but it might take forever over a dialup link.
> >>
> >>If you had a linux desktop, you could use an ftp client on your desktop,
> >>call it "system A", to move files from "system B" to "system C", assuming
> >>you had the necessary access permissions and such.
> >>
> >>Also, you could email stuff to yourself with attachments, although 
> >>nettamer
> >>is a little weird about attachments, and then you have filesize limits.
> >>
> >>Finally, if you had a Linux desktop and a high speed connection you would 
> >>be
> >>home free. Just grab all those files quickly with an FTP client, move 
> >>them
> >>to your desktop, and burn them to a CD if you need to.
> >>
> >>My Linux system uses two 40 GB disks, one of which is used extensively to
> >>backup stuff on the other. Not exactly a raid system, but heavily 
> >>redundant.
> >>I do use CD backups too once in a blue moon.
> >>
> >>Your DOS desktop has limited HD storage. A Linux desktop would not. I 
> >>have a
> >>DOS partition of 500 MB on each of my two 40 GB hard discs, just in case,
> >>but have not booted into DOS in several years. For my own situation, I
> >>cannot imagine ever being able (psychologically) to return to DOS and
> >>Nettamer.
> >>
> >>Chuck
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Speakup mailing list
> >>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >>
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Chair
				Accessibility Workgroup
				Free Standards Group (FSG)

janina@freestandards.org	Phone: +1 202.494.7040

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Karen Lewellen]

Janina,
We shall not see quite yet grin.  It seems that there is no -m option in 
our edition of the "du" program.
  I ran it in this way:
du -ms
I was told that  following:
illegal usage du -m
with a list of other command line options.
I have asked our system administrator how the program works for us.
Karen

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:

> I don't know specifically about her shell provider, but it would be
> customary that she could build her .tar.bz2 archive under /tmp and then
> rscync it off.
>
> I'm willing to bet, though, that she has far less than a CD ROM's worth
> of data. Perhaps we'll soon see.
>
> Chuck Hallenbeck writes:
>> Karen,
>>
>> You have two bottlenecks, seems to me. One is your connection speed, the
>> other is nettamer. You can use "tar" on your ISP's system to aggregate
>> those precious files into one archive, assuming you have the space, and
>> then move that archive somewhere. Nettamer could retrieve it with its
>> ftp facility, but it might take forever over a dialup link.
>>
>> If you had a linux desktop, you could use an ftp client on your desktop,
>> call it "system A", to move files from "system B" to "system C",
>> assuming you had the necessary access permissions and such.
>>
>> Also, you could email stuff to yourself with attachments, although
>> nettamer is a little weird about attachments, and then you have filesize
>> limits.
>>
>> Finally, if you had a Linux desktop and a high speed connection you
>> would be home free. Just grab all those files quickly with an FTP
>> client, move them to your desktop, and burn them to a CD if you need to.
>>
>> My Linux system uses two 40 GB disks, one of which is used extensively
>> to backup stuff on the other. Not exactly a raid system, but heavily
>> redundant. I do use CD backups too once in a blue moon.
>>
>> Your DOS desktop has limited HD storage. A Linux desktop would not. I
>> have a DOS partition of 500 MB on each of my two 40 GB hard discs, just
>> in case, but have not booted into DOS in several years. For my own
>> situation, I cannot imagine ever being able (psychologically) to return
>> to DOS and Nettamer.
>>
>> Chuck
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>> This is an odd one, so I hope I ask it in such a way to make sense.
>>> I do not have a Linux machine.  I have been trying to get this, and
>>> thought I had one in the he works but it seems that party either made up
>>> the machines they were offering, or  for some other reason is not coming
>>> through.
>>> In any case, I do use a Linux shell service extensively.  I fear almost
>>> too extensively, as you will understand in a moment.
>>> The OS on the system i use mostly is dos, and I use nettamer to telnet to
>>> my Linux shell.
>>> In the workspace of my shell service i have a great deal of irreplaceable
>>> files and programs.  I eave them up here, for ease, but I just was
>>> reminded that this may be a venerable state of affairs.
>>> Fortunately when the server went down nothing was lost or so it seems, but
>>> I have a serious factor to consider.
>>> My question has two parts.
>>> first, is there a way to move large amounts of data stored in the
>>> workspace of a Linux shell service to another location in tact, with
>>> relative ease, and without taking all of the data on the entire system?
>>> second, if my machine was also a Linux one, would this kind of storage be
>>> easy to do?
>>> As I said before I do not have such a machine, but this has shaken me up
>>> enough that if a full Linux or Linux/dos or Linux/windows machine would
>>> give me some firm safe backup, I will have to start advertising for
>>> someone to build this for me and encurl the expense.
>>> I have too busy a professional life to do this myself, and would rather
>>> pay someone with the skills than lose valuable time trying to re-invent
>>> the wheel.
>>> Thanks,
>>> Karen
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>
>>
>> --
>> The Moon is Waxing Gibbous (97% of Full)
>> Home page at http://www.mhcable.com/~chuckh
>> Speakfreely address 24.105.197.112:2074
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> -- 
>
> 				Janina Sajka, Chair
> 				Accessibility Workgroup
> 				Free Standards Group (FSG)
>
> janina@freestandards.org	Phone: +1 202.494.7040
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Luke Davis]

Janina

Sina did not suggest use of windows.  He said, that windows can do this: 
how is it done in Linux?

Your condecention and insults, were not called for in this case, 
Janina--you misread his original message.  You are the only one who 
thought he suggested using Windows.  I also notice, that, while in your 
bluster, you state the inferiority of Windows, and the application 
mentioned, you never answered Sina's question, about how it is done in 
Linux.

Saying something is so, and being unable or unwilling to explain it, 
serves absolutely no purpose.

Is it possible that you could have been at fault here, not Sina?


On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:

> Frankly, Sina, I really don't care whether you like my posts or not.
>
> Point is, your advice isn't very good in this instance, to put it
> bluntly.

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Luke Davis]

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, doc wrote:

> Can you make ncftp secure and if so how?

Why would you want to expend the effort, when SFTP and similar tools are 
available?

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Janina Sajka]

I think you misread me, then. I did say how to do it in Linux. I said
rsync would be preferred. I also talked about ftp, particularly the bg
facility of ncftp.

Besides, she asked whether it was easy to do in Linux. That would make a
Windows suggestion unresponsive at best.

So, Luke, have you canvased all readers of the list to isolate me as the
only one who misunderstood? Bunk.

Luke Davis writes:
> Janina
> 
> Sina did not suggest use of windows.  He said, that windows can do this: 
> how is it done in Linux?
> 
> Your condecention and insults, were not called for in this case, 
> Janina--you misread his original message.  You are the only one who 
> thought he suggested using Windows.  I also notice, that, while in your 
> bluster, you state the inferiority of Windows, and the application 
> mentioned, you never answered Sina's question, about how it is done in 
> Linux.
> 
> Saying something is so, and being unable or unwilling to explain it, 
> serves absolutely no purpose.
> 
> Is it possible that you could have been at fault here, not Sina?
> 
> 
> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:
> 
> >Frankly, Sina, I really don't care whether you like my posts or not.
> >
> >Point is, your advice isn't very good in this instance, to put it
> >bluntly.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Chair
				Accessibility Workgroup
				Free Standards Group (FSG)

janina@freestandards.org	Phone: +1 202.494.7040

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Janina Sajka]

I don't know how sftp would be better?

1.)	You can specify a file mask to transfer multiple files with scp.

2.)	You can specify multiple source files with scp, and do so in one
command where sftp would require you to do one at a time if you didn't
use a file mask.

And, didn't we agree that the better strategy would be to tar and either
bun or gun zip the archive first?

Luke Davis writes:
> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Luke Yelavich wrote:
> 
> >The tools I am thinking of, are the SSH suite of tools, particularly one 
> >command being scp. This command allows you to copy data securely over a 
> >network connection, by means of encryption.
> 
> sftp, might be a better option, for several files.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Chair
				Accessibility Workgroup
				Free Standards Group (FSG)

janina@freestandards.org	Phone: +1 202.494.7040

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Janina Sajka]

Good point, Luke. I betray my ignorance of bsd.

Luke Davis writes:
> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:
> 
> >You don't say how much data you have there? Issue the following command
> >from your home directory to find out how much data you have:
> >du -ms .
> 
> -m is not a supported option under the du provided with FreeBSD, which is 
> what Shellworld is running, assuming that is the ISP she is talking about.
> 
> -h should probably work for the same effect.
> 
> Luke
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Chair
				Accessibility Workgroup
				Free Standards Group (FSG)

janina@freestandards.org	Phone: +1 202.494.7040

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Luke Davis]

Karen, you just said, that you have a web server, not on Shellworld, 
whereon you could store your data.  Janina is talking about FTPing 
directly from Shellworld to that, as I also suggested in another message.

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Karen Lewellen wrote:

> Hi janina,
> Perhaps you did not read all of my post, but again I only have one machine.
> If the program suggested does not require my system, but does require 
> windows, anyone living anywhere that I know an complete the task for me it 
> seems.  but your suggestion involves my having two computers which I have 
> said I do not have.
> Karen
>
> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:
>
>> If you have ftp access on two machines, forget Windows, and just log
>> into one. Launch a good ftp client like ncftp, start the transfer,
>> and go to bed.
>> 
>> You certainly don't need Windows.
>> 
>> PS: If you use ncftp you could even use bgget (or bgput) to run the
>> transfers in background, which means you could log off and your files
>> would still get transfered.
>> 
>> Now, does Windows have that? Huh, Sina?
>> 
>> Karen Lewellen writes:
>>> hmm,
>>> Let me be sure I follow you.
>>> This is a program that runs in windows, that would let me move the 
>>> contents
>>> of my shellworld workspace,  <i have ftp here too of course> to say the
>>> storage on my website<where I also  have ftp,> and that is not located 
>>> on
>>> shellworld?
>>> if all this is true, where can i find this tool?
>>> Karen
>>> 
>>> On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, Sina Bahram wrote:
>>> 
>>>> If I may humbly suggest?
>>>> 
>>>> Fxp, or flash xp as I think it is...is a windows tool that allows 
>>>> someone
>>>> to
>>>> connect to one ftp, then connect to the other ftp...and then say, FTP 
>>>> A,
>>>> copy stuff to FTP B....then all you have to do is sit back and let 
>>>> the data
>>>> packets flow...it doesn't go through your system at all: so you could
>>>> transfer information at any speed, only limited by the two ftp 
>>>> servers, not
>>>> by your own connection.
>>>> 
>>>> *shrug* is there a linux equivalent to this tool/protocall?
>>>> 
>>>> Take care,
>>>> Sina
>>>> 
>>>> No trees were destroyed in sending this message; however, a large 
>>>> number of
>>>> electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca
>>>> [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
>>>> On Behalf Of Chuck Hallenbeck
>>>> Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 8:51 PM
>>>> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
>>>> Subject: Re: Linux and data storage?
>>>> 
>>>> Karen,
>>>> 
>>>> You have two bottlenecks, seems to me. One is your connection speed, 
>>>> the
>>>> other is nettamer. You can use "tar" on your ISP's system to 
>>>> aggregate
>>>> those
>>>> precious files into one archive, assuming you have the space, and 
>>>> then move
>>>> that archive somewhere. Nettamer could retrieve it with its ftp 
>>>> facility,
>>>> but it might take forever over a dialup link.
>>>> 
>>>> If you had a linux desktop, you could use an ftp client on your 
>>>> desktop,
>>>> call it "system A", to move files from "system B" to "system C", 
>>>> assuming
>>>> you had the necessary access permissions and such.
>>>> 
>>>> Also, you could email stuff to yourself with attachments, although 
>>>> nettamer
>>>> is a little weird about attachments, and then you have filesize 
>>>> limits.
>>>> 
>>>> Finally, if you had a Linux desktop and a high speed connection you 
>>>> would
>>>> be
>>>> home free. Just grab all those files quickly with an FTP client, move 
>>>> them
>>>> to your desktop, and burn them to a CD if you need to.
>>>> 
>>>> My Linux system uses two 40 GB disks, one of which is used 
>>>> extensively to
>>>> backup stuff on the other. Not exactly a raid system, but heavily
>>>> redundant.
>>>> I do use CD backups too once in a blue moon.
>>>> 
>>>> Your DOS desktop has limited HD storage. A Linux desktop would not. I 
>>>> have
>>>> a
>>>> DOS partition of 500 MB on each of my two 40 GB hard discs, just in 
>>>> case,
>>>> but have not booted into DOS in several years. For my own situation, 
>>>> I
>>>> cannot imagine ever being able (psychologically) to return to DOS and
>>>> Nettamer.
>>>> 
>>>> Chuck
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Speakup mailing list
>>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> 
>> -- 
>> 
>> Janina Sajka, Chair
>> Accessibility Workgroup
>> Free Standards Group (FSG)
>> 
>> janina@freestandards.org	Phone: +1 202.494.7040
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> 
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Janina Sajka]

Your "data stored in Pine for you," as you put it, is probably also part
of your home directory. It's probably in a directory called mail.

Never fear. There are ways to exclude the mail directory when you copy
your files into a tar archive file.

The best way to get a number on how much you have to back up, then, is
probably to get a total on your home directory and all its
subdirectories, then do the same thing for the mail directory and
subtract.

Karen Lewellen writes:
> Hi again
> Thanks for the command!
> I will want to know this regardless, and am guessing, I hope correctly, 
> that it is only my home directory, not the data stored in pine for me.
> Thanks again,
> Karen
> 
> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:
> 
> >Hi, Karen:
> >
> >You don't say how much data you have there? Issue the following command
> >from your home directory to find out how much data you have:
> >
> >du -ms .
> >
> >It will give you a number in megabytes. It may take some time to run.
> >
> >Now, to your question. You ask whether it would be easy. Well, yes, it
> >might be, or it might not be.
> >
> >It's not likely to be pleasant to move copious amounts of data over a
> >dial up modem connection, but there are easy technologies that can
> >insure you get a true copy even if it takes some time to accomplish.
> >
> >I'm thinking of rsync.
> >
> >And, yes, you are on the right track. Hardware and software can be
> >replaced. One's work/data files cannot be so readily replaced. So, it is
> >wise to have one's important data in two physical clocations.
> >
> >But let's start out by defining how much "a lot" is.
> >
> >Karen Lewellen writes:
> >>Hi all,
> >>This is an odd one, so I hope I ask it in such a way to make sense.
> >>I do not have a Linux machine.  I have been trying to get this, and
> >>thought I had one in the he works but it seems that party either made up
> >>the machines they were offering, or  for some other reason is not coming
> >>through.
> >>In any case, I do use a Linux shell service extensively.  I fear almost
> >>too extensively, as you will understand in a moment.
> >>The OS on the system i use mostly is dos, and I use nettamer to telnet to
> >>my Linux shell.
> >>In the workspace of my shell service i have a great deal of irreplaceable
> >>files and programs.  I eave them up here, for ease, but I just was
> >>reminded that this may be a venerable state of affairs.
> >>Fortunately when the server went down nothing was lost or so it seems, but
> >>I have a serious factor to consider.
> >> My question has two parts.
> >>first, is there a way to move large amounts of data stored in the
> >>workspace of a Linux shell service to another location in tact, with
> >>relative ease,  and without taking all of the data on the entire system?
> >>second, if my machine was also a Linux one, would this kind of storage be
> >>easy to do?
> >>As I said before I do not have such a machine, but this has shaken me up
> >>enough that if a full Linux or Linux/dos or Linux/windows machine would
> >>give me some firm safe backup, I will have to start advertising for
> >>someone to build this for me and encurl the expense.
> >> I have too busy a professional life to do this myself, and would rather
> >>pay someone with the skills than lose valuable time trying to re-invent 
> >>the
> >>wheel.
> >>Thanks,
> >>Karen
> >>
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Speakup mailing list
> >>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >-- 
> >
> >				Janina Sajka, Chair
> >				Accessibility Workgroup
> >				Free Standards Group (FSG)
> >
> >janina@freestandards.org	Phone: +1 202.494.7040
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Chair
				Accessibility Workgroup
				Free Standards Group (FSG)

janina@freestandards.org	Phone: +1 202.494.7040

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Luke Davis]

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Karen Lewellen wrote:

> I will want to know this regardless, and am guessing, I hope correctly, that 
> it is only my home directory, not the data stored in pine for me.

Pine is a program.  It does not store any data for you.

If you're talking about your saved mail, in folders such as 
saved-messages, sent-mail, and other folders you have created: they are 
under ~/mail, so they would be included in the du command, and in the 
backup.

If you are talking about new mail, or any other mail stored in your inbox: 
that would not be included, as it is in /var/mail/klewellen.

Luke

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Luke Davis]

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:

> Frankly, building the .tar.bz2 file in /tmp might be considered
> insecure, as anyone might get at it there.

Even if it is chmoded to 0600?

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Luke Davis]

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:

> Exactly why I'm on Sinna's case about this. He's clouded and confused
> things.

Agreed that the suggestion was not directly useful to the current 
situation, but I still don't believe it was suggesting use of Windows. 
His "if I may suggest", I took to refer to the last line, "might there be 
a linux solution similar to this?", not to the middle section of 
explanatory text, describing what he wanted a Linux solution for.
(paraphrasing)

RE: Linux and data storage?

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi Sina,
I for one thank you for your help here.  There is no such thing as too much 
information in a case like this.
The idea of doing the transfer from my ftp here on shellworld to the ftp on 
my site as a quick solution while I find another one is fine by me.
I apologize that Janina does not agree, but it is not her data.
Karen

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Sina Bahram wrote:

> Hi Janina,
>
> Actually there very well could be a Windows equivalent; not that I'd really
> care if there is or isn't.
>
> I wasn't suggesting that Windows was in any way, shape, or form needed here.
> I said that there was a windows tool, which I mistakenly at first called fxp
> rather than Flash XP. Then someone pointed out that fxp was the
> protocall...and I sent a message asking for a Linux use of this so that she
> can get her transfer complete.
>
> In short...i've tried to be helpful, while you have in two separate emails
> offered help in conjunction with criticism towards me for my suggestion,
> which I did point out quite humbly, and secondly offered an extremely
> immature and unbecoming attitude.
>
> I do appologise to Karen for Janina's attitude. Karen, I wish you the best
> of luck in getting your data transferred.
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
> No trees were destroyed in sending this message; however, a large number of
> electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
> On Behalf Of Janina Sajka
> Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 2:18 PM
> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> Subject: Re: Linux and data storage?
>
> If you have ftp access on two machines, forget Windows, and just log into
> one. Launch a good ftp client like ncftp, start the transfer, and go to bed.
>
> You certainly don't need Windows.
>
> PS: If you use ncftp you could even use bgget (or bgput) to run the
> transfers in background, which means you could log off and your files would
> still get transfered.
>
> Now, does Windows have that? Huh, Sina?
>
> Karen Lewellen writes:
>> hmm,
>> Let me be sure I follow you.
>> This is a program that runs in windows, that would let me move the
>> contents of my shellworld workspace,  <i have ftp here too of course>
>> to say the storage on my website<where I also  have ftp,> and that is
>> not located on shellworld?
>> if all this is true, where can i find this tool?
>> Karen
>>
>> On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, Sina Bahram wrote:
>>
>>> If I may humbly suggest?
>>>
>>> Fxp, or flash xp as I think it is...is a windows tool that allows
>>> someone to connect to one ftp, then connect to the other ftp...and
>>> then say, FTP A, copy stuff to FTP B....then all you have to do is
>>> sit back and let the data packets flow...it doesn't go through your
>>> system at all: so you could transfer information at any speed, only
>>> limited by the two ftp servers, not by your own connection.
>>>
>>> *shrug* is there a linux equivalent to this tool/protocall?
>>>
>>> Take care,
>>> Sina
>>>
>>> No trees were destroyed in sending this message; however, a large
>>> number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Janina Sajka]

600 certainly does help. Can you build a tar and chmod at the same time?
I realize we're splitting hairs here.

Luke Davis writes:
> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:
> 
> >Frankly, building the .tar.bz2 file in /tmp might be considered
> >insecure, as anyone might get at it there.
> 
> Even if it is chmoded to 0600?
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Chair
				Accessibility Workgroup
				Free Standards Group (FSG)

janina@freestandards.org	Phone: +1 202.494.7040

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Luke Davis]

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:

> I think you misread me, then. I did say how to do it in Linux. I said
> rsync would be preferred. I also talked about ftp, particularly the bg
> facility of ncftp.

My bad, then.  If Rsync can do what ever kind of transfers are done by the 
windows app mentioned, then fine.

> Besides, she asked whether it was easy to do in Linux. That would make a
> Windows suggestion unresponsive at best.

<sie> I saw no Windows suggestion.  This is pointless.

> So, Luke, have you canvased all readers of the list to isolate me as the
> only one who misunderstood? Bunk.

No, I have canvased all responders, by their public comments.

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Janina Sajka]

Oh, and we could continue to parse that first email from him, but why?
To prove what an ogre I am? I can defend myself quite nicely, thank you,
including on a parse of that message.

Point is it did hijack the discussion. You and I are still trying to
clear it up, e.g. a direct file transfer between two external machines.

Luke Davis writes:
> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:
> 
> >Exactly why I'm on Sinna's case about this. He's clouded and confused
> >things.
> 
> Agreed that the suggestion was not directly useful to the current 
> situation, but I still don't believe it was suggesting use of Windows. 
> His "if I may suggest", I took to refer to the last line, "might there be 
> a linux solution similar to this?", not to the middle section of 
> explanatory text, describing what he wanted a Linux solution for.
> (paraphrasing)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Chair
				Accessibility Workgroup
				Free Standards Group (FSG)

janina@freestandards.org	Phone: +1 202.494.7040

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Janina Sajka]

Oh, and we could continue to parse that first email from him, but why?
To prove what an ogre I am? I can defend myself quite nicely, thank you,
including on a parse of that message.

Point is it did hijack the discussion. You and I are still trying to
clear it up, e.g. a direct file transfer between two external machines.

Luke Davis writes:
> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:
> 
> >Exactly why I'm on Sinna's case about this. He's clouded and confused
> >things.
> 
> Agreed that the suggestion was not directly useful to the current 
> situation, but I still don't believe it was suggesting use of Windows. 
> His "if I may suggest", I took to refer to the last line, "might there be 
> a linux solution similar to this?", not to the middle section of 
> explanatory text, describing what he wanted a Linux solution for.
> (paraphrasing)

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Janina Sajka]

600 certainly does help. Can you build a tar and chmod at the same time?
I realize we're splitting hairs here.

Luke Davis writes:
> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:
> 
> >Frankly, building the .tar.bz2 file in /tmp might be considered
> >insecure, as anyone might get at it there.
> 
> Even if it is chmoded to 0600?

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Janina Sajka]

Yes, Luke was just point out that -m is not available on BSD.

But, you probably do have:

du --help

You should check from your prompt on shell world, but I suspect you can
just do:

du -s

and get a result in kilobytes. The -m just gives the result in
megabytes..

But, having also myself just looked at du --help, I can now ammend
something else I just said a minute ago. Instead of subtracting a total
for mail, do:

du -s -x mail/

to exclude the mail directory from the calculations.

So, get anything better with these commands?

Karen Lewellen writes:
> Janina,
> We shall not see quite yet grin.  It seems that there is no -m option in 
> our edition of the "du" program.
>  I ran it in this way:
> du -ms
> I was told that  following:
> illegal usage du -m
> with a list of other command line options.
> I have asked our system administrator how the program works for us.
> Karen

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Luke Davis]

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:

> I don't know how sftp would be better?

Six of one, half a duzzen...  Which ever usage type to which she is used, 
will be better.  Options, options, options.

> And, didn't we agree that the better strategy would be to tar and either
> bun or gun zip the archive first?

It would be easier than an rsync, not to mention less annoying to the 
system administrator, yes.

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Janina Sajka]

Huh? I've been explaining several ways to do it. None of the commands I
gave you for doing this require you to go get any software. They're all
about using what you already have access to on shell world, most likely.

Yes, it's certainly your data. And, if you want to use Windows, I'm
certainly not going to stop you. But I will complain if we start using
this list to discuss using Windows to do this job.

Karen Lewellen writes:
> Hi Sina,
> I for one thank you for your help here.  There is no such thing as too much 
> information in a case like this.
> The idea of doing the transfer from my ftp here on shellworld to the ftp on 
> my site as a quick solution while I find another one is fine by me.
> I apologize that Janina does not agree, but it is not her data.
> Karen
> 
> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Sina Bahram wrote:
> 
> >Hi Janina,
> >
> >Actually there very well could be a Windows equivalent; not that I'd really
> >care if there is or isn't.
> >
> >I wasn't suggesting that Windows was in any way, shape, or form needed 
> >here.
> >I said that there was a windows tool, which I mistakenly at first called 
> >fxp
> >rather than Flash XP. Then someone pointed out that fxp was the
> >protocall...and I sent a message asking for a Linux use of this so that she
> >can get her transfer complete.
> >
> >In short...i've tried to be helpful, while you have in two separate emails
> >offered help in conjunction with criticism towards me for my suggestion,
> >which I did point out quite humbly, and secondly offered an extremely
> >immature and unbecoming attitude.
> >
> >I do appologise to Karen for Janina's attitude. Karen, I wish you the best
> >of luck in getting your data transferred.
> >
> >Take care,
> >Sina
> >
> >No trees were destroyed in sending this message; however, a large number of
> >electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca 
> >[mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
> >On Behalf Of Janina Sajka
> >Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 2:18 PM
> >To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> >Subject: Re: Linux and data storage?
> >
> >If you have ftp access on two machines, forget Windows, and just log into
> >one. Launch a good ftp client like ncftp, start the transfer, and go to 
> >bed.
> >
> >You certainly don't need Windows.
> >
> >PS: If you use ncftp you could even use bgget (or bgput) to run the
> >transfers in background, which means you could log off and your files would
> >still get transfered.
> >
> >Now, does Windows have that? Huh, Sina?
> >
> >Karen Lewellen writes:
> >>hmm,
> >>Let me be sure I follow you.
> >>This is a program that runs in windows, that would let me move the
> >>contents of my shellworld workspace,  <i have ftp here too of course>
> >>to say the storage on my website<where I also  have ftp,> and that is
> >>not located on shellworld?
> >>if all this is true, where can i find this tool?
> >>Karen
> >>
> >>On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, Sina Bahram wrote:
> >>
> >>>If I may humbly suggest?
> >>>
> >>>Fxp, or flash xp as I think it is...is a windows tool that allows
> >>>someone to connect to one ftp, then connect to the other ftp...and
> >>>then say, FTP A, copy stuff to FTP B....then all you have to do is
> >>>sit back and let the data packets flow...it doesn't go through your
> >>>system at all: so you could transfer information at any speed, only
> >>>limited by the two ftp servers, not by your own connection.
> >>>
> >>>*shrug* is there a linux equivalent to this tool/protocall?
> >>>
> >>>Take care,
> >>>Sina
> >>>
> >>>No trees were destroyed in sending this message; however, a large
> >>>number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Chair
				Accessibility Workgroup
				Free Standards Group (FSG)

janina@freestandards.org	Phone: +1 202.494.7040

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Janina Sajka]

Luke Davis writes:
> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:
mm> 
> >I think you misread me, then. I did say how to do it in Linux. I said
> >rsync would be preferred. I also talked about ftp, particularly the bg
> >facility of ncftp.
> 
> My bad, then.  If Rsync can do what ever kind of transfers are done by the 
> windows app mentioned, then fine.
> 
> >Besides, she asked whether it was easy to do in Linux. That would make a
> >Windows suggestion unresponsive at best.
> 
> <sie> I saw no Windows suggestion.  This is pointless.
So, are we agreed to stop it?
> 

> >So, Luke, have you canvased all readers of the list to isolate me as the
> >only one who misunderstood? Bunk.
> 
> No, I have canvased all responders, by their public comments.
> 
You and him so far equals all.

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Janina Sajka]

I would tar even for an rsync.

To me rsync is the top tool because it checks that what was received is
a true copy of what was sent--more so than just byte count, time and
date.

And, it supports ssh.

Luke Davis writes:
> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:
> 
> >I don't know how sftp would be better?
> 
> Six of one, half a duzzen...  Which ever usage type to which she is used, 
> will be better.  Options, options, options.
> 
> >And, didn't we agree that the better strategy would be to tar and either
> >bun or gun zip the archive first?
> 
> It would be easier than an rsync, not to mention less annoying to the 
> system administrator, yes.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Chair
				Accessibility Workgroup
				Free Standards Group (FSG)

janina@freestandards.org	Phone: +1 202.494.7040

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Luke Davis]

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:

> 600 certainly does help. Can you build a tar and chmod at the same time?

Hmm, an interesting question.  There are two ways to test this idea, which 
I will now attempt...

Starting the tar process in one window (using screen), and in another 
listing the file in /tmp, shows, 644.  Doing a chmod to 600, while the tar 
is still in progress, then listing the file again, shows 600.  So that 
solution appears to work, as would, of course, backgrounding the tar 
process, and changing the mode.

The other method:

touch /tmp/ldtf.tbz
chmod 600 /tmp/ldtf.tbz
tar --bzip2 -cf /tmp/ldtf.tbz ~/

also acomplishes the task of keeping the file private, so I suppose the 
answer is yes, in all possible ways.

> I realize we're splitting hairs here.

So what?  The more hairs you split, the more lessons you learn about hair.
Put another way: in order to determine the means by which something 
operates, is frequently to split it open, and see!

Luke

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Janina Sajka]

Yes, this is useful. It's probably beyond what she needs to be concerned
about, but certainly useful.

Luke Davis writes:
> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:
> 
> >600 certainly does help. Can you build a tar and chmod at the same time?
> 
> Hmm, an interesting question.  There are two ways to test this idea, which 
> I will now attempt...
> 
> Starting the tar process in one window (using screen), and in another 
> listing the file in /tmp, shows, 644.  Doing a chmod to 600, while the tar 
> is still in progress, then listing the file again, shows 600.  So that 
> solution appears to work, as would, of course, backgrounding the tar 
> process, and changing the mode.
> 
> The other method:
> 
> touch /tmp/ldtf.tbz
> chmod 600 /tmp/ldtf.tbz
> tar --bzip2 -cf /tmp/ldtf.tbz ~/
> 
> also acomplishes the task of keeping the file private, so I suppose the 
> answer is yes, in all possible ways.
> 
> >I realize we're splitting hairs here.
> 
> So what?  The more hairs you split, the more lessons you learn about hair.
> Put another way: in order to determine the means by which something 
> operates, is frequently to split it open, and see!
> 
> Luke
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Chair
				Accessibility Workgroup
				Free Standards Group (FSG)

janina@freestandards.org	Phone: +1 202.494.7040

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Luke Davis]

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:

>> <sie> I saw no Windows suggestion.  This is pointless.
> So, are we agreed to stop it?

You will not conceed, I will not conceed; we have no choice but to stop 
it.  There is no new data upon which further debate could be based.

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Luke Davis]

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:

> I would tar even for an rsync.
> To me rsync is the top tool because it checks that what was received is
> a true copy of what was sent--more so than just byte count, time and
> date.

Oh yes, I forgot about that capability.  That does indeed give it the 
advantage.

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Luke Davis]

A word to Karen: if you do any of the tarish things discussed in this 
thread, be certain to delete the backup archive, after it has completed 
its transit.  /tmp is only cleared on reboot, and that usually only 
happens 1.5 times per year.

  On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:

> Yes, this is useful. It's probably beyond what she needs to be concerned
> about, but certainly useful.
>
> Luke Davis writes:
>> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:
>>
>>> 600 certainly does help. Can you build a tar and chmod at the same time?
>>
>> Hmm, an interesting question.  There are two ways to test this idea, which
>> I will now attempt...
>>
>> Starting the tar process in one window (using screen), and in another
>> listing the file in /tmp, shows, 644.  Doing a chmod to 600, while the tar
>> is still in progress, then listing the file again, shows 600.  So that
>> solution appears to work, as would, of course, backgrounding the tar
>> process, and changing the mode.
>>
>> The other method:
>>
>> touch /tmp/ldtf.tbz
>> chmod 600 /tmp/ldtf.tbz
>> tar --bzip2 -cf /tmp/ldtf.tbz ~/
>>
>> also acomplishes the task of keeping the file private, so I suppose the
>> answer is yes, in all possible ways.

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Janina Sajka]

And my example tar command is probably not the most advisable. Better to
do something like:
tar -cjpf /tmp/karen.tbz ../karen/

You want a tar archive file that will create a directory when you
uncompress and copy all your files into that directory.
Luke Davis writes:
> A word to Karen: if you do any of the tarish things discussed in this 
> thread, be certain to delete the backup archive, after it has completed 
> its transit.  /tmp is only cleared on reboot, and that usually only 
> happens 1.5 times per year.
> 
>  On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:
> 
> >Yes, this is useful. It's probably beyond what she needs to be concerned
> >about, but certainly useful.
> >
> >Luke Davis writes:
> >>On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:
> >>
> >>>600 certainly does help. Can you build a tar and chmod at the same time?
> >>
> >>Hmm, an interesting question.  There are two ways to test this idea, which
> >>I will now attempt...
> >>
> >>Starting the tar process in one window (using screen), and in another
> >>listing the file in /tmp, shows, 644.  Doing a chmod to 600, while the tar
> >>is still in progress, then listing the file again, shows 600.  So that
> >>solution appears to work, as would, of course, backgrounding the tar
> >>process, and changing the mode.
> >>
> >>The other method:
> >>
> >>touch /tmp/ldtf.tbz
> >>chmod 600 /tmp/ldtf.tbz
> >>tar --bzip2 -cf /tmp/ldtf.tbz ~/
> >>
> >>also acomplishes the task of keeping the file private, so I suppose the
> >>answer is yes, in all possible ways.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Chair
				Accessibility Workgroup
				Free Standards Group (FSG)

janina@freestandards.org	Phone: +1 202.494.7040

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Karen Lewellen]

Yes Skywalker, I do mean my data at Shellworld, and yes it seems your -h 
solution did work...I think.
I ran this twice.
first i did:
du -hs
keeping janina's  inclusion.
i was told.
1.8g
now, i ran
du -h
and got more of a directory breakdown, but still got the same total.
some of this is under sub directories like /vicq and /amil,
the data from which I might not want to copy.
but in theory I have almost 2gb of data up here everything included.
Karen

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Luke Davis wrote:

> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:
>
>> You don't say how much data you have there? Issue the following command
>> from your home directory to find out how much data you have:
>> du -ms .
>
> -m is not a supported option under the du provided with FreeBSD, which is 
> what Shellworld is running, assuming that is the ISP she is talking about.
>
> -h should probably work for the same effect.
>
> Luke
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Luke Davis]

Okay, since you're on shellworld, you can run:

kwota

Do that, and show us the results.

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Karen Lewellen wrote:

> Yes Skywalker, I do mean my data at Shellworld, and yes it seems your -h 
> solution did work...I think.
> I ran this twice.
> first i did:
> du -hs
> keeping janina's  inclusion.
> i was told.
> 1.8g
> now, i ran
> du -h
> and got more of a directory breakdown, but still got the same total.
> some of this is under sub directories like /vicq and /amil,
> the data from which I might not want to copy.
> but in theory I have almost 2gb of data up here everything included.
> Karen

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Karen Lewellen]

nope,
suggest means well suggest.
if the  question had been or if there had been no question,
a recommendation might have be considered as to have been implied.
assuming one is reading more into the he sentence than needful, as you seem to 
have been doing.
That the word suggestion was used, and as a question, was not or does not 
to me imply a recommendation.
It was directed to me.
Karen
as Miss Teach

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:

> Sina Bahram writes:
>> Hi Janina,
>>
>> Please point out where I recommended the installation of, the use of, the
>> installing upon, or any other permutation of Windows? I said I was
>> familiar
>
> No, that's not what you said. Your words exactly:
>
> "If I may humbly suggest?
>
> Sounds like a recommendation to me.
>
> Find your message at:
>
> http://braille.uwo.ca/pipermail/speakup/2004-September/030120.html
>
> You may want to spin it differently now that you've been challenged on
> it, but I'm not going to continue down this road with you because it's
> fruitless. It's not my point to piss you off. As I said, bad advice is
> often worse than no advice at all. The above referenced email is clearly
> a suggestion for a particular tool. It may be sufficient for the task,
> but it's by no means the best, or even the only choice. If you don't
> know a Linux answer on a Linux list, perhaps you might wait and learn
> something rather than hijacking the thread and the list.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Karen Lewellen]

Not for me!
it is one idea among many.
i am sorry if you are confused though janina.


On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:

> Exactly why I'm on Sinna's case about this. He's clouded and confused
> things.
>
> Luke Davis writes:
>> Um, if you have FTP access on both, why would you need that tool?  Why not
>> just telnet to Shellworld, from there FTP to your web server (sftp or scp
>> or rsync would be better), and transfer the files directly?
>>
>>  On Sun, 26 Sep
>> 2004, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>
>>> hmm,
>>> Let me be sure I follow you.
>>> This is a program that runs in windows, that would let me move the
>>> contents of my shellworld workspace,  <i have ftp here too of course> to
>>> say the storage on my website<where I also  have ftp,> and that is not
>>> located on shellworld?
>>> if all this is true, where can i find this tool?
>>> Karen
>>>
>>> On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, Sina Bahram wrote:
>>>
>>>> If I may humbly suggest?
>>>>
>>>> Fxp, or flash xp as I think it is...is a windows tool that allows someone
>>>> to
>>>> connect to one ftp, then connect to the other ftp...and then say, FTP A,
>>>> copy stuff to FTP B....then all you have to do is sit back and let the
>>>> data
>>>> packets flow...it doesn't go through your system at all: so you could
>>>> transfer information at any speed, only limited by the two ftp servers,
>>>> not
>>>> by your own connection.
>>>>
>>>> *shrug* is there a linux equivalent to this tool/protocall?
>>>>
>>>> Take care,
>>>> Sina
>>>>
>>>> No trees were destroyed in sending this message; however, a large number
>>>> of
>>>> electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca
>>>> [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
>>>> On Behalf Of Chuck Hallenbeck
>>>> Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 8:51 PM
>>>> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
>>>> Subject: Re: Linux and data storage?
>>>>
>>>> Karen,
>>>>
>>>> You have two bottlenecks, seems to me. One is your connection speed, the
>>>> other is nettamer. You can use "tar" on your ISP's system to aggregate
>>>> those
>>>> precious files into one archive, assuming you have the space, and then
>>>> move
>>>> that archive somewhere. Nettamer could retrieve it with its ftp facility,
>>>> but it might take forever over a dialup link.
>>>>
>>>> If you had a linux desktop, you could use an ftp client on your desktop,
>>>> call it "system A", to move files from "system B" to "system C", assuming
>>>> you had the necessary access permissions and such.
>>>>
>>>> Also, you could email stuff to yourself with attachments, although
>>>> nettamer
>>>> is a little weird about attachments, and then you have filesize limits.
>>>>
>>>> Finally, if you had a Linux desktop and a high speed connection you would
>>>> be
>>>> home free. Just grab all those files quickly with an FTP client, move
>>>> them
>>>> to your desktop, and burn them to a CD if you need to.
>>>>
>>>> My Linux system uses two 40 GB disks, one of which is used extensively to
>>>> backup stuff on the other. Not exactly a raid system, but heavily
>>>> redundant.
>>>> I do use CD backups too once in a blue moon.
>>>>
>>>> Your DOS desktop has limited HD storage. A Linux desktop would not. I
>>>> have a
>>>> DOS partition of 500 MB on each of my two 40 GB hard discs, just in case,
>>>> but have not booted into DOS in several years. For my own situation, I
>>>> cannot imagine ever being able (psychologically) to return to DOS and
>>>> Nettamer.
>>>>
>>>> Chuck
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Speakup mailing list
>>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> -- 
>
> 				Janina Sajka, Chair
> 				Accessibility Workgroup
> 				Free Standards Group (FSG)
>
> janina@freestandards.org	Phone: +1 202.494.7040
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

RE: Linux and data storage?

[Karen Lewellen]

Our shellworld administrator suggested the following as an alternative to 
du:
kwota
from which i got
your files occupy 1902.82 megabits of system space.
very polite that program.
and I hope i just stated that number correctly grin
Karen

RE: Linux and data storage?

[Sina Bahram]

No..i believe you previously stated that you were on my case about
Windows...are we changing the issue now?

Janina...that's exactly all you are...you're just on my case...you're not
helping by attacking me for something I didn't even suggest, namely using
Windows, and I don't see how the helps things at all...

Take care,
Sina 

No trees were destroyed in sending this message; however, a large number of
electrons were terribly inconvenienced. 
-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of Janina Sajka
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 4:30 PM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: Linux and data storage?

Exactly why I'm on Sinna's case about this. He's clouded and confused
things.

Luke Davis writes:
> Um, if you have FTP access on both, why would you need that tool?  Why 
> not just telnet to Shellworld, from there FTP to your web server (sftp 
> or scp or rsync would be better), and transfer the files directly?
> 
>  On Sun, 26 Sep
> 2004, Karen Lewellen wrote:
> 
> >hmm,
> >Let me be sure I follow you.
> >This is a program that runs in windows, that would let me move the 
> >contents of my shellworld workspace,  <i have ftp here too of course> 
> >to say the storage on my website<where I also  have ftp,> and that is 
> >not located on shellworld?
> >if all this is true, where can i find this tool?
> >Karen
> >
> >On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, Sina Bahram wrote:
> >
> >>If I may humbly suggest?
> >>
> >>Fxp, or flash xp as I think it is...is a windows tool that allows 
> >>someone to connect to one ftp, then connect to the other ftp...and 
> >>then say, FTP A, copy stuff to FTP B....then all you have to do is 
> >>sit back and let the data packets flow...it doesn't go through your 
> >>system at all: so you could transfer information at any speed, only 
> >>limited by the two ftp servers, not by your own connection.
> >>
> >>*shrug* is there a linux equivalent to this tool/protocall?
> >>
> >>Take care,
> >>Sina
> >>
> >>No trees were destroyed in sending this message; however, a large 
> >>number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca 
> >>[mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
> >>On Behalf Of Chuck Hallenbeck
> >>Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 8:51 PM
> >>To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> >>Subject: Re: Linux and data storage?
> >>
> >>Karen,
> >>
> >>You have two bottlenecks, seems to me. One is your connection speed, 
> >>the other is nettamer. You can use "tar" on your ISP's system to 
> >>aggregate those precious files into one archive, assuming you have 
> >>the space, and then move that archive somewhere. Nettamer could 
> >>retrieve it with its ftp facility, but it might take forever over a 
> >>dialup link.
> >>
> >>If you had a linux desktop, you could use an ftp client on your 
> >>desktop, call it "system A", to move files from "system B" to 
> >>"system C", assuming you had the necessary access permissions and such.
> >>
> >>Also, you could email stuff to yourself with attachments, although 
> >>nettamer is a little weird about attachments, and then you have 
> >>filesize limits.
> >>
> >>Finally, if you had a Linux desktop and a high speed connection you 
> >>would be home free. Just grab all those files quickly with an FTP 
> >>client, move them to your desktop, and burn them to a CD if you need 
> >>to.
> >>
> >>My Linux system uses two 40 GB disks, one of which is used 
> >>extensively to backup stuff on the other. Not exactly a raid system, 
> >>but heavily redundant.
> >>I do use CD backups too once in a blue moon.
> >>
> >>Your DOS desktop has limited HD storage. A Linux desktop would not. 
> >>I have a DOS partition of 500 MB on each of my two 40 GB hard discs, 
> >>just in case, but have not booted into DOS in several years. For my 
> >>own situation, I cannot imagine ever being able (psychologically) to 
> >>return to DOS and Nettamer.
> >>
> >>Chuck
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Speakup mailing list
> >>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >>
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Chair
				Accessibility Workgroup
				Free Standards Group (FSG)

janina@freestandards.org	Phone: +1 202.494.7040


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Karen Lewellen]

Would it indeed janina?
  the mention of windows not possibly be easy y given my personal array of 
associates who use windows, compared to those that use Linux?
You are enough of an expert on my personal  situation to know how many 
computers I have, and just how i might define easy?
It seems you were not only misunderstanding, you were making mind reading 
assumptions too.  very bad ones at that.

Indeed Luc is correct.
Karen

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:

> I think you misread me, then. I did say how to do it in Linux. I said
> rsync would be preferred. I also talked about ftp, particularly the bg
> facility of ncftp.
>
> Besides, she asked whether it was easy to do in Linux. That would make a
> Windows suggestion unresponsive at best.
>
> So, Luke, have you canvased all readers of the list to isolate me as the
> only one who misunderstood? Bunk.
>
> Luke Davis writes:
>> Janina
>>
>> Sina did not suggest use of windows.  He said, that windows can do this:
>> how is it done in Linux?
>>
>> Your condecention and insults, were not called for in this case,
>> Janina--you misread his original message.  You are the only one who
>> thought he suggested using Windows.  I also notice, that, while in your
>> bluster, you state the inferiority of Windows, and the application
>> mentioned, you never answered Sina's question, about how it is done in
>> Linux.
>>
>> Saying something is so, and being unable or unwilling to explain it,
>> serves absolutely no purpose.
>>
>> Is it possible that you could have been at fault here, not Sina?
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:
>>
>>> Frankly, Sina, I really don't care whether you like my posts or not.
>>>
>>> Point is, your advice isn't very good in this instance, to put it
>>> bluntly.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> -- 
>
> 				Janina Sajka, Chair
> 				Accessibility Workgroup
> 				Free Standards Group (FSG)
>
> janina@freestandards.org	Phone: +1 202.494.7040
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

RE: Linux and data storage?

[Sina Bahram]

Hi Janina,

Sina Bahram said:

Fxp, or flash xp as I think it is...is a windows tool that allows someone to
connect to one ftp, then connect to the other ftp...and then say, FTP A,
copy stuff to FTP B....then all you have to do is sit back and let the data
packets flow...it doesn't go through your system at all: so you could
transfer information at any speed, only limited by the two ftp servers, not
by your own connection.

Then Sina Bahram said:

*shrug* is there a linux equivalent to this tool/protocall?

Which of course we know there is. Again...where is my recommendation of
Windows?

That is a direct quote...no spinning at all. Please point it out. As for
hijacking the thread, I believe you have done a wonderful job of this by
somehow convincing yourself that I made a recommendation which I did not,
and then criticising me on it numerous times.

By the way...i'm not pissed off. In fact, by the tone of your emails: it
seems you are the one who is upset. I can simply shrug off a
misunderstanding and absolutely not worry about it, but you continue to use
an acusatory tone, and act as if I have done something wrong.

Thank you for your suggestion to sit back and learn something: I constantly
learn things on this list, and I'm sorry that your attitude is one that does
not encourage learning or educated discussion, but rather one of baseless
acusations and false claims.

Take care,
Sina
 
No trees were destroyed in sending this message; however, a large number of
electrons were terribly inconvenienced. 
-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of Janina Sajka
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 4:21 PM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: Linux and data storage?

Sina Bahram writes:
> Hi Janina,
> 
> Please point out where I recommended the installation of, the use of, 
> the installing upon, or any other permutation of Windows? I said I was 
> familiar

No, that's not what you said. Your words exactly:

"If I may humbly suggest?

Sounds like a recommendation to me.

Find your message at:

http://braille.uwo.ca/pipermail/speakup/2004-September/030120.html

You may want to spin it differently now that you've been challenged on it,
but I'm not going to continue down this road with you because it's
fruitless. It's not my point to piss you off. As I said, bad advice is often
worse than no advice at all. The above referenced email is clearly a
suggestion for a particular tool. It may be sufficient for the task, but
it's by no means the best, or even the only choice. If you don't know a
Linux answer on a Linux list, perhaps you might wait and learn something
rather than hijacking the thread and the list.

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Karen Lewellen]

*we* agreed on no such thing.
I have no intention of risking a zip of any of these files, nor do i want 
to have to create alist.
I want a direct uninterrupted transfer of the entire contents of  my home 
directory here minus the shellworld programs themselves to a directory so 
created on the ftp area of my site to so store them as a backup.
no one said anything about ziping anything.
Tar was s mentioned before you came in this morning yes.


On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:

> I don't know how sftp would be better?
>
> 1.)	You can specify a file mask to transfer multiple files with scp.
>
> 2.)	You can specify multiple source files with scp, and do so in one
> command where sftp would require you to do one at a time if you didn't
> use a file mask.
>
> And, didn't we agree that the better strategy would be to tar and either
> bun or gun zip the archive first?
>
> Luke Davis writes:
>> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Luke Yelavich wrote:
>>
>>> The tools I am thinking of, are the SSH suite of tools, particularly one
>>> command being scp. This command allows you to copy data securely over a
>>> network connection, by means of encryption.
>>
>> sftp, might be a better option, for several files.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> -- 
>
> 				Janina Sajka, Chair
> 				Accessibility Workgroup
> 				Free Standards Group (FSG)
>
> janina@freestandards.org	Phone: +1 202.494.7040
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

RE: Linux and data storage?

[Sina Bahram]

All the best to you...good luck transfering the data.

Take care,
Sina 

No trees were destroyed in sending this message; however, a large number of
electrons were terribly inconvenienced. 
-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of Karen Lewellen
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 4:53 PM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: RE: Linux and data storage?

Hi Sina,
I for one thank you for your help here.  There is no such thing as too much
information in a case like this.
The idea of doing the transfer from my ftp here on shellworld to the ftp on
my site as a quick solution while I find another one is fine by me.
I apologize that Janina does not agree, but it is not her data.
Karen

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Sina Bahram wrote:

> Hi Janina,
>
> Actually there very well could be a Windows equivalent; not that I'd 
> really care if there is or isn't.
>
> I wasn't suggesting that Windows was in any way, shape, or form needed
here.
> I said that there was a windows tool, which I mistakenly at first 
> called fxp rather than Flash XP. Then someone pointed out that fxp was 
> the protocall...and I sent a message asking for a Linux use of this so 
> that she can get her transfer complete.
>
> In short...i've tried to be helpful, while you have in two separate 
> emails offered help in conjunction with criticism towards me for my 
> suggestion, which I did point out quite humbly, and secondly offered 
> an extremely immature and unbecoming attitude.
>
> I do appologise to Karen for Janina's attitude. Karen, I wish you the 
> best of luck in getting your data transferred.
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
> No trees were destroyed in sending this message; however, a large 
> number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca 
> [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
> On Behalf Of Janina Sajka
> Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 2:18 PM
> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> Subject: Re: Linux and data storage?
>
> If you have ftp access on two machines, forget Windows, and just log 
> into one. Launch a good ftp client like ncftp, start the transfer, and go
to bed.
>
> You certainly don't need Windows.
>
> PS: If you use ncftp you could even use bgget (or bgput) to run the 
> transfers in background, which means you could log off and your files 
> would still get transfered.
>
> Now, does Windows have that? Huh, Sina?
>
> Karen Lewellen writes:
>> hmm,
>> Let me be sure I follow you.
>> This is a program that runs in windows, that would let me move the 
>> contents of my shellworld workspace,  <i have ftp here too of course> 
>> to say the storage on my website<where I also  have ftp,> and that is 
>> not located on shellworld?
>> if all this is true, where can i find this tool?
>> Karen
>>
>> On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, Sina Bahram wrote:
>>
>>> If I may humbly suggest?
>>>
>>> Fxp, or flash xp as I think it is...is a windows tool that allows 
>>> someone to connect to one ftp, then connect to the other ftp...and 
>>> then say, FTP A, copy stuff to FTP B....then all you have to do is 
>>> sit back and let the data packets flow...it doesn't go through your 
>>> system at all: so you could transfer information at any speed, only 
>>> limited by the two ftp servers, not by your own connection.
>>>
>>> *shrug* is there a linux equivalent to this tool/protocall?
>>>
>>> Take care,
>>> Sina
>>>
>>> No trees were destroyed in sending this message; however, a large 
>>> number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Karen Lewellen]

Skywalker,
I did note your message and replied to it, hitting the size limit again 
it seems so let me try again.
I ask you specifically as you too are on shellworld.
As i said I have no intention of zipping anything, so if i understand this 
i should be able to do the following.
a, create a directory on the server where my site resides, which too is a 
Linux based server let's call it backup.
b, from my shellworld home prompt run sftp or tar or one of the other ftp 
based transfer programs  and copy the contents of my home directory to 
the so created directory on my website server?
I do not want to have to specify, so if this does mean  i must coy over 
mail and the like so be it.  frankly it might not be so bad an idea given 
the folders in that area too.
I would rather have everything even if more than i need, than lose 
anything seeking what i think i want.
What say you, do I understand the process correctly?
Karen

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Janina Sajka]

Karen Lewellen writes:
> nope,
> suggest means well suggest.
> if the  question had been or if there had been no question,
> a recommendation might have be considered as to have been implied.

Well, let's try the dictionary. May I suggest Wordnet's #1, #3, and
possibly #5 would apply as well.

May I also note that your interpretation is #2 on the word list order,
and mine is #1?

dict suggest
3 definitions found

>From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) [web1913]:

  Suggest \Sug*gest"\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. {Suggested}; p. pr. &
     vb. n. {Suggesting}.] [L. suggestus, p. p. of suggerere to
     put under, furnish, suggest; sub under + gerere to carry, to
     bring. See {Jest}.]
     1. To introduce indirectly to the thoughts; to cause to be
        thought of, usually by the agency of other objects.

              Some ideas . . . are suggested to the mind by all
              the ways of sensation and reflection. --Locke.

     2. To propose with difference or modesty; to hint; to
        intimate; as, to suggest a difficulty.

     3. To seduce; to prompt to evil; to tempt. [Obs.]

              Knowing that tender youth is soon suggested. --Shak.

     4. To inform secretly. [Obs.]

     Syn: To hint; allude to; refer to; insinuate.

>From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) [web1913]:

  Suggest \Sug*gest"\, v. i.
     To make suggestions; to tempt. [Obs.]

           And ever weaker grows through acted crime, Or
           seeming-genial, venial fault, Recurring and suggesting
           still.                                   --Tennyson.

>From WordNet (r) 2.0 [wn]:

  suggest
       v 1: make a proposal, declare a plan for something [syn:
{propose},
             {advise}]
       2: imply as a possibility; "The evidence suggests a need for
          more clarification" [syn: {intimate}]
       3: drop a hint; intimate by a hint [syn: {hint}]
       4: suggest the necessity of an intervention; in medicine;
          "Tetracycline is indicated in such cases" [syn: {indicate}]
          [ant: {contraindicate}]
       5: call to mind or evoke [syn: {evoke}, {paint a picture}]

> assuming one is reading more into the he sentence than needful, as you seem 
> to have been doing.
> That the word suggestion was used, and as a question, was not or does not 
> to me imply a recommendation.
> It was directed to me.
> Karen
> as Miss Teach

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Karen Lewellen]

,Thanks for the distinction.  In that case, I will want to include the 
/mail directory as well.
Karen

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Luke Davis wrote:

> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>
>> I will want to know this regardless, and am guessing, I hope correctly, 
>> that it is only my home directory, not the data stored in pine for me.
>
> Pine is a program.  It does not store any data for you.
>
> If you're talking about your saved mail, in folders such as saved-messages, 
> sent-mail, and other folders you have created: they are under ~/mail, so they 
> would be included in the du command, and in the backup.
>
> If you are talking about new mail, or any other mail stored in your inbox: 
> that would not be included, as it is in /var/mail/klewellen.
>
> Luke
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Luke Davis]

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Karen Lewellen wrote:

> I have no intention of risking a zip of any of these files, nor do i want to

Risking a zip?  What does that mean?  Where is the risk?  Gnu Zip (not PK 
Zip), and Bzip2, are highly stable formats.
Tar is an archiving method used for decades on unix.  In fact, Linux uses 
bzip2 as its kernel format these days.

This exact method is how many of us who backup shellworld user data, do 
it, on a regular basis--tar archived into bzip, or gzip.

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Karen Lewellen]

Clear it up for whom janina?
You have already shown that you are not first hand aware of the shellworld 
setup, given your mistake in using the du program.
It is better that Luc give me the answers as he knows this service better 
than you do.
and in an effort to split further hairs, i have not two external machines. 
I have two ftp accounts which is not the same thing.
Karen

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:

> Oh, and we could continue to parse that first email from him, but why?
> To prove what an ogre I am? I can defend myself quite nicely, thank you,
> including on a parse of that message.
>
> Point is it did hijack the discussion. You and I are still trying to
> clear it up, e.g. a direct file transfer between two external machines.
>
> Luke Davis writes:
>> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:
>>
>>> Exactly why I'm on Sinna's case about this. He's clouded and confused
>>> things.
>>
>> Agreed that the suggestion was not directly useful to the current
>> situation, but I still don't believe it was suggesting use of Windows.
>> His "if I may suggest", I took to refer to the last line, "might there be
>> a linux solution similar to this?", not to the middle section of
>> explanatory text, describing what he wanted a Linux solution for.
>> (paraphrasing)
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> -- 
>
> 				Janina Sajka, Chair
> 				Accessibility Workgroup
> 				Free Standards Group (FSG)
>
> janina@freestandards.org	Phone: +1 202.494.7040
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Karen Lewellen]

Again you are incorrect.
kwota was far more informative than du was in any case.
again you are not knowledgeable as to shellworld's specific setup to 
contribute to this in my opinion.
Its my data, so my opinion is what matters in the long run grin.
Karen

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:

> Yes, Luke was just point out that -m is not available on BSD.
>
> But, you probably do have:
>
> du --help
>
> You should check from your prompt on shell world, but I suspect you can
> just do:
>
> du -s
>
> and get a result in kilobytes. The -m just gives the result in
> megabytes..
>
> But, having also myself just looked at du --help, I can now ammend
> something else I just said a minute ago. Instead of subtracting a total
> for mail, do:
>
> du -s -x mail/
>
> to exclude the mail directory from the calculations.
>
> So, get anything better with these commands?
>
> Karen Lewellen writes:
>> Janina,
>> We shall not see quite yet grin.  It seems that there is no -m option in
>> our edition of the "du" program.
>>  I ran it in this way:
>> du -ms
>> I was told that  following:
>> illegal usage du -m
>> with a list of other command line options.
>> I have asked our system administrator how the program works for us.
>> Karen
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Janina Sajka]

Karen Lewellen writes:
> Would it indeed janina?
>  the mention of windows not possibly be easy y given my personal array of 
> associates who use windows, compared to those that use Linux?
> You are enough of an expert on my personal  situation to know how many 
> computers I have, and just how i might define easy?
> It seems you were not only misunderstanding, you were making mind reading 
> assumptions too.  very bad ones at that.
Huh? Karen, what you posted was:

http://braille.uwo.ca/pipermail/speakup/2004-September/030116.html

"
"My question has two parts.
first, is there a way to move large amounts of data stored in the
workspace of a Linux shell service to another location in tact, with
relative ease,  and without taking all of the data on the entire system?
second, if my machine was also a Linux one, would this kind of storage
be
easy to do?""

So, I have no notion of what you meant beyond what you said. And,
frankly, it's nothing to me. As you yourself said, it's your data.
As far as I'm concerned, you're welcome to copy it longhand, if you
prefer.
There are people for whom that would be easier, I'm sure.

> 
> Indeed Luc is correct.
> Karen
> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:
> 
> >I think you misread me, then. I did say how to do it in Linux. I said
> >rsync would be preferred. I also talked about ftp, particularly the bg
> >facility of ncftp.
> >
> >Besides, she asked whether it was easy to do in Linux. That would make a
> >Windows suggestion unresponsive at best.
> >
> >So, Luke, have you canvased all readers of the list to isolate me as the
> >only one who misunderstood? Bunk.
> >
> >Luke Davis writes:
> >>Janina
> >>
> >>Sina did not suggest use of windows.  He said, that windows can do this:
> >>how is it done in Linux?
> >>
> >>Your condecention and insults, were not called for in this case,
> >>Janina--you misread his original message.  You are the only one who
> >>thought he suggested using Windows.  I also notice, that, while in your
> >>bluster, you state the inferiority of Windows, and the application
> >>mentioned, you never answered Sina's question, about how it is done in
> >>Linux.
> >>
> >>Saying something is so, and being unable or unwilling to explain it,
> >>serves absolutely no purpose.
> >>
> >>Is it possible that you could have been at fault here, not Sina?
> >>
> >>
> >>On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:
> >>
> >>>Frankly, Sina, I really don't care whether you like my posts or not.
> >>>
> >>>Point is, your advice isn't very good in this instance, to put it
> >>>bluntly.
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Speakup mailing list
> >>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >-- 
> >
> >				Janina Sajka, Chair
> >				Accessibility Workgroup
> >				Free Standards Group (FSG)
> >
> >janina@freestandards.org	Phone: +1 202.494.7040
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Chair
				Accessibility Workgroup
				Free Standards Group (FSG)

janina@freestandards.org	Phone: +1 202.494.7040

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Janina Sajka]

Sina Bahram writes:
> Hi Janina,
> 
> Please point out where I recommended the installation of, the use of, the
> installing upon, or any other permutation of Windows? I said I was familiar
> with a Windows tool, and in fact...if you refer to my post: I asked for the
> linux equivalent: for Karen, and also for my own edification.
> 
> Please explain where I recommended Windows?

So, how do you now spin your "shrug?"

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Luke Davis]

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Karen Lewellen wrote:

> As i said I have no intention of zipping anything, so if i understand this i

and as I said, that seems a strange fobia.  Regardless, however--

> should be able to do the following.
> a, create a directory on the server where my site resides, which too is a 
> Linux based server let's call it backup.

What do you mean, "which too"?  If we are talking about Shellworld, it is 
not Linux, in any way, shape, or form.

> b, from my shellworld home prompt run sftp or tar or one of the other ftp 
> based transfer programs  and copy the contents of my home directory to the so 
> created directory on my website server?

tar is not a transfer program.  It is an archival tool.

Tar takes several files, and copies them into one large file.  It stands 
for "tape archiver", and was originally used for exactly that purpose.
For example, if you did:

cd ~/
tar --exclude ~/mail -cf /tmp/karen_backup.tar ../

Will copy your entire home directory, excepting the mail directory which 
contains your saved messages, into a contiguous archive, in the file 
/tmp/karen_backup.tar.  That file may then be moved to another server or 
the like.

Better, would be to compress it using gzip, or, still better, bzip2, and 
then transfer it, using sftp, rsync, ftp, ncftp, or some transfer program.

> I do not want to have to specify, so if this does mean  i must coy over mail 
> and the like so be it.  frankly it might not be so bad an idea given the 
> folders in that area too.

To copy in the way you suggest, a transfer using rsync, is probably the 
best option.

> What say you, do I understand the process correctly?

Parts of it, yes.  Other parts, not so much.

Luke

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Janina Sajka]

Fascinating, why would you delete your first sentence from your post
while resending it this time?

Have you bethought yourself?

Sina Bahram writes:
> Hi Janina,
> 
> Sina Bahram said:
> 
> Fxp, or flash xp as I think it is...is a windows tool that allows someone to
> connect to one ftp, then connect to the other ftp...and then say, FTP A,
> copy stuff to FTP B....then all you have to do is sit back and let the data
> packets flow...it doesn't go through your system at all: so you could
> transfer information at any speed, only limited by the two ftp servers, not
> by your own connection.

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Luke Davis]

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Karen Lewellen wrote:

> You have already shown that you are not first hand aware of the shellworld 
> setup, given your mistake in using the du program.
> It is better that Luc give me the answers as he knows this service better

Be careful with exclusionary statements such as that.  You will alienate 
help.  I happen to be here right now.  When I leave tonight, I may not 
pick back up on this conversation for days.

Take help where you can get it.  You told her that Shellworld was Linux. 
It is not, it is FreeBSD.  She gave you a Linux command syntax, because 
you told her that was what you were using.

Luke

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Luke Davis]

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Karen Lewellen wrote:

> kwota was far more informative than du was in any case.

They actually said about the same thing, which is what I was expecting.

1900 Megabytes at 1,000 byte kilobytes, is quite the same thing as 1.8 
gigabytes, in 1024 byte megabytes, which is what du gave you.

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Karen Lewellen]

wrong again,
My definition as it was my question involving my situation is numberone in 
the only dictionary that mattershere.


On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:

> Karen Lewellen writes:
>> nope,
>> suggest means well suggest.
>> if the  question had been or if there had been no question,
>> a recommendation might have be considered as to have been implied.
>
> Well, let's try the dictionary. May I suggest Wordnet's #1, #3, and
> possibly #5 would apply as well.
>
> May I also note that your interpretation is #2 on the word list order,
> and mine is #1?
>
> dict suggest
> 3 definitions found
>
>> From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) [web1913]:
>
>  Suggest \Sug*gest"\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. {Suggested}; p. pr. &
>     vb. n. {Suggesting}.] [L. suggestus, p. p. of suggerere to
>     put under, furnish, suggest; sub under + gerere to carry, to
>     bring. See {Jest}.]
>     1. To introduce indirectly to the thoughts; to cause to be
>        thought of, usually by the agency of other objects.
>
>              Some ideas . . . are suggested to the mind by all
>              the ways of sensation and reflection. --Locke.
>
>     2. To propose with difference or modesty; to hint; to
>        intimate; as, to suggest a difficulty.
>
>     3. To seduce; to prompt to evil; to tempt. [Obs.]
>
>              Knowing that tender youth is soon suggested. --Shak.
>
>     4. To inform secretly. [Obs.]
>
>     Syn: To hint; allude to; refer to; insinuate.
>
>> From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) [web1913]:
>
>  Suggest \Sug*gest"\, v. i.
>     To make suggestions; to tempt. [Obs.]
>
>           And ever weaker grows through acted crime, Or
>           seeming-genial, venial fault, Recurring and suggesting
>           still.                                   --Tennyson.
>
>> From WordNet (r) 2.0 [wn]:
>
>  suggest
>       v 1: make a proposal, declare a plan for something [syn:
> {propose},
>             {advise}]
>       2: imply as a possibility; "The evidence suggests a need for
>          more clarification" [syn: {intimate}]
>       3: drop a hint; intimate by a hint [syn: {hint}]
>       4: suggest the necessity of an intervention; in medicine;
>          "Tetracycline is indicated in such cases" [syn: {indicate}]
>          [ant: {contraindicate}]
>       5: call to mind or evoke [syn: {evoke}, {paint a picture}]
>
>> assuming one is reading more into the he sentence than needful, as you seem
>> to have been doing.
>> That the word suggestion was used, and as a question, was not or does not
>> to me imply a recommendation.
>> It was directed to me.
>> Karen
>> as Miss Teach
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Janina Sajka]

Sounds like Humpty Dumpty logic, actually.

"When I use a word, it means precisely what I mean it to mean, no more,
no less."

That really helps, now, doesn't it?

Karen Lewellen writes:
> wrong again,
> My definition as it was my question involving my situation is numberone in 
> the only dictionary that mattershere.
> 
> 
> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:
> 
> >Karen Lewellen writes:
> >>nope,
> >>suggest means well suggest.
> >>if the  question had been or if there had been no question,
> >>a recommendation might have be considered as to have been implied.
> >
> >Well, let's try the dictionary. May I suggest Wordnet's #1, #3, and
> >possibly #5 would apply as well.
> >
> >May I also note that your interpretation is #2 on the word list order,
> >and mine is #1?
> >
> >dict suggest
> >3 definitions found
> >
> >>From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) [web1913]:
> >
> > Suggest \Sug*gest"\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. {Suggested}; p. pr. &
> >    vb. n. {Suggesting}.] [L. suggestus, p. p. of suggerere to
> >    put under, furnish, suggest; sub under + gerere to carry, to
> >    bring. See {Jest}.]
> >    1. To introduce indirectly to the thoughts; to cause to be
> >       thought of, usually by the agency of other objects.
> >
> >             Some ideas . . . are suggested to the mind by all
> >             the ways of sensation and reflection. --Locke.
> >
> >    2. To propose with difference or modesty; to hint; to
> >       intimate; as, to suggest a difficulty.
> >
> >    3. To seduce; to prompt to evil; to tempt. [Obs.]
> >
> >             Knowing that tender youth is soon suggested. --Shak.
> >
> >    4. To inform secretly. [Obs.]
> >
> >    Syn: To hint; allude to; refer to; insinuate.
> >
> >>From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) [web1913]:
> >
> > Suggest \Sug*gest"\, v. i.
> >    To make suggestions; to tempt. [Obs.]
> >
> >          And ever weaker grows through acted crime, Or
> >          seeming-genial, venial fault, Recurring and suggesting
> >          still.                                   --Tennyson.
> >
> >>From WordNet (r) 2.0 [wn]:
> >
> > suggest
> >      v 1: make a proposal, declare a plan for something [syn:
> >{propose},
> >            {advise}]
> >      2: imply as a possibility; "The evidence suggests a need for
> >         more clarification" [syn: {intimate}]
> >      3: drop a hint; intimate by a hint [syn: {hint}]
> >      4: suggest the necessity of an intervention; in medicine;
> >         "Tetracycline is indicated in such cases" [syn: {indicate}]
> >         [ant: {contraindicate}]
> >      5: call to mind or evoke [syn: {evoke}, {paint a picture}]
> >
> >>assuming one is reading more into the he sentence than needful, as you 
> >>seem
> >>to have been doing.
> >>That the word suggestion was used, and as a question, was not or does not
> >>to me imply a recommendation.
> >>It was directed to me.
> >>Karen
> >>as Miss Teach
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Chair
				Accessibility Workgroup
				Free Standards Group (FSG)

janina@freestandards.org	Phone: +1 202.494.7040

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Karen Lewellen]

Much of this is music materials and the like which do not compress well 
when using those programs  as I have tried.
I do not want to chance it.
Call me a chicken if you wish but it is my data.  Will the methods 
suggested do this, no compression involved?
Karen

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Luke Davis wrote:

> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>
>> I have no intention of risking a zip of any of these files, nor do i want 
>> to
>
> Risking a zip?  What does that mean?  Where is the risk?  Gnu Zip (not PK 
> Zip), and Bzip2, are highly stable formats.
> Tar is an archiving method used for decades on unix.  In fact, Linux uses 
> bzip2 as its kernel format these days.
>
> This exact method is how many of us who backup shellworld user data, do it, 
> on a regular basis--tar archived into bzip, or gzip.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Janina Sajka]

Just to finish up on backup strategies:

The first backup is the big chore. But, it's not the last word--unless,
of course, one never changes one's data. Not likely.

So, a backup routine is the real target.

rsync is the right tool especially for the backup routine because it
intelligently copies only those portions that have changed. Very
effective, especially on low bandwidth connections.

Luke Davis writes:
> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Karen Lewellen wrote:
> 
> >You have already shown that you are not first hand aware of the shellworld 
> >setup, given your mistake in using the du program.
> >It is better that Luc give me the answers as he knows this service better
> 
> Be careful with exclusionary statements such as that.  You will alienate 
> help.  I happen to be here right now.  When I leave tonight, I may not 
> pick back up on this conversation for days.
> 
> Take help where you can get it.  You told her that Shellworld was Linux. 
> It is not, it is FreeBSD.  She gave you a Linux command syntax, because 
> you told her that was what you were using.
> 
> Luke
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Chair
				Accessibility Workgroup
				Free Standards Group (FSG)

janina@freestandards.org	Phone: +1 202.494.7040

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Karen Lewellen]

Sorry, granted a lot of this has gotten off center with all of janina's 
needless chattering.

first, the server that hosts my site has a Linux shell base to it, using 
the red hat distribution  which I know has a different name now.
You pointed out before when we were discussing du that shellworld too uses 
a Linux element to  its foundation, and many of the programs here are Linux 
based and  the services is advertised to some as a Linux shell.
Thus my description.
I am not going to archive so from your explanation, i will not need tar.
so rsynch will accomplish a copy of the  data here save for the mail in my 
inbox at the time of the transfer?
now am I more on point?
Karen

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Luke Davis wrote:

> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>
>> As i said I have no intention of zipping anything, so if i understand 
>> this i
>
> and as I said, that seems a strange fobia.  Regardless, however--
>
>> should be able to do the following.
>> a, create a directory on the server where my site resides, which too is a 
>> Linux based server let's call it backup.
>
> What do you mean, "which too"?  If we are talking about Shellworld, it is not 
> Linux, in any way, shape, or form.
>
>> b, from my shellworld home prompt run sftp or tar or one of the other ftp 
>> based transfer programs  and copy the contents of my home directory to 
>> the so created directory on my website server?
>
> tar is not a transfer program.  It is an archival tool.
>
> Tar takes several files, and copies them into one large file.  It stands for 
> "tape archiver", and was originally used for exactly that purpose.
> For example, if you did:
>
> cd ~/
> tar --exclude ~/mail -cf /tmp/karen_backup.tar ../
>
> Will copy your entire home directory, excepting the mail directory which 
> contains your saved messages, into a contiguous archive, in the file 
> /tmp/karen_backup.tar.  That file may then be moved to another server or the 
> like.
>
> Better, would be to compress it using gzip, or, still better, bzip2, and then 
> transfer it, using sftp, rsync, ftp, ncftp, or some transfer program.
>
>> I do not want to have to specify, so if this does mean  i must coy over 
>> mail and the like so be it.  frankly it might not be so bad an idea given 
>> the folders in that area too.
>
> To copy in the way you suggest, a transfer using rsync, is probably the best 
> option.
>
>> What say you, do I understand the process correctly?
>
> Parts of it, yes.  Other parts, not so much.
>
> Luke
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Luke Davis]

You forget what tar is.  It adds everything together, so it compresses far 
better, than any of it would individually.
For example, a gig of text, and maybe a third of binary data, can compress 
down to about 350 MB.

Now, keep in mind the system: does Shellworld admin, want you moving a 
Gig of data across its connection, when there is a choice to compress it 
into a few hundred MB?

Yes, it is your data, but it is not your system.

You still haven't explained what the risk is.  Additionally, it is not as 
if the original data was not still there.

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Karen Lewellen wrote:

> Much of this is music materials and the like which do not compress well when 
> using those programs  as I have tried.
> I do not want to chance it.
> Call me a chicken if you wish but it is my data.  Will the methods suggested 
> do this, no compression involved?
> Karen
>
> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Luke Davis wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>> 
>>> I have no intention of risking a zip of any of these files, nor do i 
>>> want to
>> 
>> Risking a zip?  What does that mean?  Where is the risk?  Gnu Zip (not PK 
>> Zip), and Bzip2, are highly stable formats.
>> Tar is an archiving method used for decades on unix.  In fact, Linux uses 
>> bzip2 as its kernel format these days.
>> 
>> This exact method is how many of us who backup shellworld user data, do 
>> it, on a regular basis--tar archived into bzip, or gzip.
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> 
>> 
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Luke Davis]

You have tried bzip2?

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Karen Lewellen wrote:

> Much of this is music materials and the like which do not compress well when 
> using those programs  as I have tried.
> I do not want to chance it.
> Call me a chicken if you wish but it is my data.  Will the methods suggested 
> do this, no compression involved?
> Karen
>
> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Luke Davis wrote:

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Karen Lewellen]

I dislike her treatment of others.  She is spending time defending herself 
and  I do not consider her to be helping at all.

so,
if you may leave the table, care to add and i am sorry if it has been 
given already the command land for using rsync?
Thus I can end this thread and let others get back to business?

Thanks,
Karen

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Luke Davis wrote:

> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>
>> You have already shown that you are not first hand aware of the 
>> shellworld setup, given your mistake in using the du program.
>> It is better that Luc give me the answers as he knows this service better
>
> Be careful with exclusionary statements such as that.  You will alienate 
> help.  I happen to be here right now.  When I leave tonight, I may not pick 
> back up on this conversation for days.
>
> Take help where you can get it.  You told her that Shellworld was Linux. It 
> is not, it is FreeBSD.  She gave you a Linux command syntax, because you told 
> her that was what you were using.
>
> Luke
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Karen Lewellen]

well yes I know that, but I like the expression given better grin.


On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Luke Davis wrote:

> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>
>> kwota was far more informative than du was in any case.
>
> They actually said about the same thing, which is what I was expecting.
>
> 1900 Megabytes at 1,000 byte kilobytes, is quite the same thing as 1.8 
> gigabytes, in 1024 byte megabytes, which is what du gave you.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Luke Davis]

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Karen Lewellen wrote:

> You pointed out before when we were discussing du that shellworld too uses a 
> Linux element to  its foundation, and many of the programs here are Linux 
> based and  the services is advertised to some as a Linux shell.
> Thus my description.

I said no such thing.  That is, to borrow Janina's word, bunk.

> I am not going to archive so from your explanation, i will not need tar.
> so rsynch will accomplish a copy of the  data here save for the mail in my 
> inbox at the time of the transfer?

The program is "rsync", not "rsynch".  The answer is yes.

Good luck.

Luke

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Luke Davis]

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Karen Lewellen wrote:

> You pointed out before when we were discussing du that shellworld too uses a 
> Linux element to  its foundation, and many of the programs here are Linux 
> based and  the services is advertised to some as a Linux shell.

Where is Shellworld advertising a Linux shell?

It hasn't been Linux based for years, and if someone is still running ads 
saying that it is, they should probably stop.

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Karen Lewellen]

I will have no problem transferring the data as i desire.   I have 200 gb 
of storage over there,  another 1.8 or so is not going to be noticed. 
Besides i hope it will be temporary with my taking it down to my own 
system at some point.

If janina is to be believed it is my system, I have two of them remember?
I plan to inform them that the data is going to be transfered, and as they 
have a rather simple idea of   the shell setup, light years behind 
shellworld,  transferring the data as i wish is what I pay for in a sense.
The risk is any of the data not being compressed properly, a chance with 
any such program, and one I choose not to take
yes the data is still here....now, but it might not have been very easily 
indeed.
Karen

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Luke Davis wrote:

> You forget what tar is.  It adds everything together, so it compresses far 
> better, than any of it would individually.
> For example, a gig of text, and maybe a third of binary data, can compress 
> down to about 350 MB.
>
> Now, keep in mind the system: does Shellworld admin, want you moving a Gig of 
> data across its connection, when there is a choice to compress it into a few 
> hundred MB?
>
> Yes, it is your data, but it is not your system.
>
> You still haven't explained what the risk is.  Additionally, it is not as if 
> the original data was not still there.
>
> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>
>> Much of this is music materials and the like which do not compress well 
>> when using those programs  as I have tried.
>> I do not want to chance it.
>> Call me a chicken if you wish but it is my data.  Will the methods 
>> suggested do this, no compression involved?
>> Karen
>> 
>> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Luke Davis wrote:
>> 
>>> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I have no intention of risking a zip of any of these files, nor do i 
>>>> want to
>>> 
>>> Risking a zip?  What does that mean?  Where is the risk?  Gnu Zip (not 
>>> PK Zip), and Bzip2, are highly stable formats.
>>> Tar is an archiving method used for decades on unix.  In fact, Linux 
>>> uses bzip2 as its kernel format these days.
>>> 
>>> This exact method is how many of us who backup shellworld user data, do 
>>> it, on a regular basis--tar archived into bzip, or gzip.
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> 
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Karen Lewellen]

thanks for the correction and the good wishes!
Karen

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Luke Davis wrote:

> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>
>> You pointed out before when we were discussing du that shellworld too 
>> uses a Linux element to  its foundation, and many of the programs here 
>> are Linux based and  the services is advertised to some as a Linux shell.
>> Thus my description.
>
> I said no such thing.  That is, to borrow Janina's word, bunk.
>
>> I am not going to archive so from your explanation, i will not need tar.
>> so rsynch will accomplish a copy of the  data here save for the mail in 
>> my inbox at the time of the transfer?
>
> The program is "rsync", not "rsynch".  The answer is yes.
>
> Good luck.
>
> Luke
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Linux and data storage?

[nick G]

It is really hard to corrupt a zip file.  There are no risks involved.  And 
If you create a zip, you don't have to delete what is in your home directory 
anyway...Or so I believe.  Your welcome to correct me, go on, do it!
Thanks,
Nick
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@shellworld.net>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 6:18 PM
Subject: Re: Linux and data storage?


> *we* agreed on no such thing.
> I have no intention of risking a zip of any of these files, nor do i want 
> to have to create alist.
> I want a direct uninterrupted transfer of the entire contents of  my home 
> directory here minus the shellworld programs themselves to a directory so 
> created on the ftp area of my site to so store them as a backup.
> no one said anything about ziping anything.
> Tar was s mentioned before you came in this morning yes.
>
>
> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:
>
>> I don't know how sftp would be better?
>>
>> 1.) You can specify a file mask to transfer multiple files with scp.
>>
>> 2.) You can specify multiple source files with scp, and do so in one
>> command where sftp would require you to do one at a time if you didn't
>> use a file mask.
>>
>> And, didn't we agree that the better strategy would be to tar and either
>> bun or gun zip the archive first?
>>
>> Luke Davis writes:
>>> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Luke Yelavich wrote:
>>>
>>>> The tools I am thinking of, are the SSH suite of tools, particularly 
>>>> one
>>>> command being scp. This command allows you to copy data securely over a
>>>> network connection, by means of encryption.
>>>
>>> sftp, might be a better option, for several files.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>> -- 
>>
>> Janina Sajka, Chair
>> Accessibility Workgroup
>> Free Standards Group (FSG)
>>
>> janina@freestandards.org Phone: +1 202.494.7040
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

RE: Linux and data storage?

[Sina Bahram]

Hi Janina,

Because you had already quoted it.

Where's your response...i only see the complaint about not quoting my first
sentence?

Take care,
Sina

No trees were destroyed in sending this message; however, a large number of
electrons were terribly inconvenienced. 
-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of Janina Sajka
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 7:04 PM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: Linux and data storage?

Fascinating, why would you delete your first sentence from your post while
resending it this time?

Have you bethought yourself?

Sina Bahram writes:
> Hi Janina,
> 
> Sina Bahram said:
> 
> Fxp, or flash xp as I think it is...is a windows tool that allows 
> someone to connect to one ftp, then connect to the other ftp...and 
> then say, FTP A, copy stuff to FTP B....then all you have to do is sit 
> back and let the data packets flow...it doesn't go through your system 
> at all: so you could transfer information at any speed, only limited 
> by the two ftp servers, not by your own connection.

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Chuck Hallenbeck]

Karen,

The choice of whether to compress or not is your choice, of course, but
you should know that the risk you are worried about is virtually
non-existent in most Linux users view. There is another downside to
transferring your data without compression. You will be transferring two
or three times as much data as you would if compressed, it will
therefore take two or three times as long, and will be two or three
times more likely to be encounter transmission errors, system
interruptions, and other acts of God. Those risks are small too, nearly
as small as compression/decompression failures. But the choice is yours,
and either way it will work.

Chuck

non-

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Karen Lewellen wrote:

> I will have no problem transferring the data as i desire.   I have 200 gb of 
> storage over there,  another 1.8 or so is not going to be noticed. Besides i 
> hope it will be temporary with my taking it down to my own system at some 
> point.
>
> If janina is to be believed it is my system, I have two of them remember?
> I plan to inform them that the data is going to be transfered, and as they 
> have a rather simple idea of   the shell setup, light years behind 
> shellworld,  transferring the data as i wish is what I pay for in a sense.
> The risk is any of the data not being compressed properly, a chance with any 
> such program, and one I choose not to take
> yes the data is still here....now, but it might not have been very easily 
> indeed.
> Karen
>
> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Luke Davis wrote:
>
>> You forget what tar is.  It adds everything together, so it compresses far 
>> better, than any of it would individually.
>> For example, a gig of text, and maybe a third of binary data, can compress 
>> down to about 350 MB.
>> 
>> Now, keep in mind the system: does Shellworld admin, want you moving a Gig 
>> of data across its connection, when there is a choice to compress it into 
>> a few hundred MB?
>> 
>> Yes, it is your data, but it is not your system.
>> 
>> You still haven't explained what the risk is.  Additionally, it is not as 
>> if the original data was not still there.
>> 
>> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>> 
>>> Much of this is music materials and the like which do not compress well 
>>> when using those programs  as I have tried.
>>> I do not want to chance it.
>>> Call me a chicken if you wish but it is my data.  Will the methods 
>>> suggested do this, no compression involved?
>>> Karen
>>> 
>>> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Luke Davis wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> I have no intention of risking a zip of any of these files, nor do i 
>>>>> want to
>>>> 
>>>> Risking a zip?  What does that mean?  Where is the risk?  Gnu Zip (not 
>>>> PK Zip), and Bzip2, are highly stable formats.
>>>> Tar is an archiving method used for decades on unix.  In fact, Linux 
>>>> uses bzip2 as its kernel format these days.
>>>> 
>>>> This exact method is how many of us who backup shellworld user data, 
>>>> do it, on a regular basis--tar archived into bzip, or gzip.
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Speakup mailing list
>>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> 
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

-- 
The Moon is Full
Home page at http://www.mhcable.com/~chuckh
Speakfreely address 24.105.197.112:2074

RE: Linux and data storage?

[Sina Bahram]

How do you mean Janina?

Again...you just requoted me without saying anything except asking me how I
would change my opinion.

I ask the same question which you are unable to answer.

Where did I recommend the use of Windows?

This is not a hard question...you faulted me for this: I submit I did not do
it. I think this is inappropriate on your part.

Take care,
Sina 

No trees were destroyed in sending this message; however, a large number of
electrons were terribly inconvenienced. 
-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of Janina Sajka
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 7:02 PM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: Linux and data storage?

Sina Bahram writes:
> Hi Janina,
> 
> Please point out where I recommended the installation of, the use of, 
> the installing upon, or any other permutation of Windows? I said I was 
> familiar with a Windows tool, and in fact...if you refer to my post: I 
> asked for the linux equivalent: for Karen, and also for my own
edification.
> 
> Please explain where I recommended Windows?

So, how do you now spin your "shrug?"

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Janina Sajka]

Yes, Sina, I answered you. If you choose to think differently, that is
your perogative. 

PS: Expect the same in the future if I'm around and you cook up some
wacky advice. I'm far more interested in good tech support on this list
than I am in smoothing ruffled feathers.


Sina Bahram writes:
> How do you mean Janina?
> 
> Again...you just requoted me without saying anything except asking me how I
> would change my opinion.
> 
> I ask the same question which you are unable to answer.
> 
> Where did I recommend the use of Windows?
> 
> This is not a hard question...you faulted me for this: I submit I did not do
> it. I think this is inappropriate on your part.
> 
> Take care,
> Sina 
> 
> No trees were destroyed in sending this message; however, a large number of
> electrons were terribly inconvenienced. 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
> On Behalf Of Janina Sajka
> Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 7:02 PM
> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> Subject: Re: Linux and data storage?
> 
> Sina Bahram writes:
> > Hi Janina,
> > 
> > Please point out where I recommended the installation of, the use of, 
> > the installing upon, or any other permutation of Windows? I said I was 
> > familiar with a Windows tool, and in fact...if you refer to my post: I 
> > asked for the linux equivalent: for Karen, and also for my own
> edification.
> > 
> > Please explain where I recommended Windows?
> 
> So, how do you now spin your "shrug?"
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Chair
				Accessibility Workgroup
				Free Standards Group (FSG)

janina@freestandards.org	Phone: +1 202.494.7040

Re: Linux and data storage?

[Karen Lewellen]

Thanks Chuck,
I wold rather run the risk of an act of God, than the risk of poorly 
compressed data.
As I have stated clearly, I am not as of yet a true Linux user save for my 
shell experiences.  i do, however, know that the people running my site's 
server have not installed everything nor everything correctly. i do not 
want a compressed file i cannot decompress later.
Also, When I want the data transfered to my own system, I can compress at 
that point.  I would know what decompression tools I have on my end 
at least, once I have a Linux system of some kind.
Karen

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Chuck Hallenbeck wrote:

> Karen,
>
> The choice of whether to compress or not is your choice, of course, but
> you should know that the risk you are worried about is virtually
> non-existent in most Linux users view. There is another downside to
> transferring your data without compression. You will be transferring two
> or three times as much data as you would if compressed, it will
> therefore take two or three times as long, and will be two or three
> times more likely to be encounter transmission errors, system
> interruptions, and other acts of God. Those risks are small too, nearly
> as small as compression/decompression failures. But the choice is yours,
> and either way it will work.
>
> Chuck
>
> non-
>
> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>
>> I will have no problem transferring the data as i desire.   I have 200 gb 
>> of storage over there,  another 1.8 or so is not going to be noticed. 
>> Besides i hope it will be temporary with my taking it down to my own 
>> system at some point.
>> 
>> If janina is to be believed it is my system, I have two of them remember?
>> I plan to inform them that the data is going to be transfered, and as 
>> they have a rather simple idea of   the shell setup, light years behind 
>> shellworld,  transferring the data as i wish is what I pay for in a 
>> sense.
>> The risk is any of the data not being compressed properly, a chance with 
>> any such program, and one I choose not to take
>> yes the data is still here....now, but it might not have been very easily 
>> indeed.
>> Karen
>> 
>> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Luke Davis wrote:
>> 
>>> You forget what tar is.  It adds everything together, so it compresses 
>>> far better, than any of it would individually.
>>> For example, a gig of text, and maybe a third of binary data, can 
>>> compress down to about 350 MB.
>>> 
>>> Now, keep in mind the system: does Shellworld admin, want you moving a 
>>> Gig of data across its connection, when there is a choice to compress 
>>> it into a few hundred MB?
>>> 
>>> Yes, it is your data, but it is not your system.
>>> 
>>> You still haven't explained what the risk is.  Additionally, it is not 
>>> as if the original data was not still there.
>>> 
>>> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Much of this is music materials and the like which do not compress 
>>>> well when using those programs  as I have tried.
>>>> I do not want to chance it.
>>>> Call me a chicken if you wish but it is my data.  Will the methods 
>>>> suggested do this, no compression involved?
>>>> Karen
>>>> 
>>>> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Luke Davis wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> I have no intention of risking a zip of any of these files, nor 
>>>>>> do i want to
>>>>> 
>>>>> Risking a zip?  What does that mean?  Where is the risk?  Gnu Zip 
>>>>> (not PK Zip), and Bzip2, are highly stable formats.
>>>>> Tar is an archiving method used for decades on unix.  In fact, 
>>>>> Linux uses bzip2 as its kernel format these days.
>>>>> 
>>>>> This exact method is how many of us who backup shellworld user 
>>>>> data, do it, on a regular basis--tar archived into bzip, or gzip.
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Speakup mailing list
>>>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Speakup mailing list
>>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> 
>
> -- 
> The Moon is Full
> Home page at http://www.mhcable.com/~chuckh
> Speakfreely address 24.105.197.112:2074
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Linux system...dressed downfrom yesterday.

[Karen Lewellen]

Going to try to send this again with some removed.



> Carol, Hart, and Anne.
> going to combine my reply in one note here, and speak to Janina's 
> new suggestions below.
> No carol, this machine would not suit my Linux needs, even though it is both 
> a Pentium class machine and has a fair amount of memory for dos, 80 meg.
> It does not have a cdrw drive, nor does it have  a hard drive of the size i 
> have read suggested for some of the packages I might consider. Additionally, 
> Linux does not have a word processor in the sense of wordperfect as we 
discussed some time back.  I 
> do a great deal of work daily with this and other programs, and I would 
> prefer having a separate machine for the Linux activity.  Not that such might 
> not be done with the additions of other hardware, just not how I want to try 
> this.
> Someone the other day posted of losing 20 or more gig of data to this 
> adventure.  as Hart and I just almost discovered, even losing a great deal 
> less than this could be devastating.  I want to both be able to keep working 
> at my pace and bring in these new tools.
>
> You are quite right as to reading up, however.  I have asked  two questions 
> more than once on this list, and never gotten an answer above, "it is a 
> matter of personal taste."
> I will ask them again.
> If one wants to compare distribution packages, pros and cons of  them, where 
> can one go?  and second is there one good book or set of text that is a Linux 
> guide from commands up?
> I  have no problem learning as i go, when i got my first computer, I learned 
> operating system, major programs screen readers and the like in two days, and 
> have rained others on operating systems, including  older editions of 
> windows.
> i will certainly not be in a situation of using commands I do not understand, 
> as there are only certain tasks I want to perform with this machine.
>
>
>
> I know from reading posts here some I would want to avoid, as I do not want 
> to have to compile things.
> Too I would rather have more than i need in a  a  Distribution, than have to 
> make changes later.  Still there are some programs I know I want based on my 
> extensive use of Linux in my shell.  things like screen and pine and 
> anti-word and pdf-to-text and both editions of the browsers, LINKS, as in a 
> chain, and LYNX, as in a cat.
> I am guessing that things like  listening to audio on line become easy with a 
> Linux desktop, something that I cannot do on my shell, as it is not tied to 
> my system directly..
> I have not heard much discussion of firefox here, or even opera, which may 
> not run in Linux, but if accessing media sites and taking part in online 
> conferences < another feature I have not heard talked of here>   is still a 
> windows thing than this box may become a Linux/windows one.
> Part of my work requires me to  listen to archived programs, an increasing 
> number of mpu setups, and the like.
> As for Anne's suggestion to contact a local Linux users group, before this 
> morning I would have said there were none.  I have searched on occasion, and 
> found none, but apparently one has been started.  Whether this will translate 
> into someone interested in helping me locate the hardware and do the 
> installation remains to be seen.
> I am sorry but I flat disagree as to the time idea.  I have a job and run a 
> production company.  I want indeed to read up as much as i can  so as to 
> choose the distribution best for me, guide the choices of system 
equipment,  and  run the programs, but I would rather 
> get someone else to help with or actually do the  installation and work with 
> the hardware.  Its my  time and my money, and I do not think i will be using 
> commands with no understanding of them.  No reason why this should happen.
> Lastly Carol, I have a dec express which i could move from machine to 
> machine and I believe this does work with speakup.  I would rather a dec 
> internal card for this machine, as I want to use the soundcard only for sound 
> work.  Thanks for all of your input.
>
> On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, Terry D. Cudney wrote:
>
>> Hi Karen,
>> 
>> Well, if you have a machine running DOS now, you have a machine 
>> that almost certainly would run Linux. The only two criteria that I

Re: Linux system...dressed downfrom yesterday.

[Janina Sajka]

You're not going to find a comparison of distros. From time to time
someone tries to write such a thing, but even these occasional efforts
are quickly out of date and therefore unhelpful.

As I'm sure has been said here over and over, distros are very much a
matter of personal choice. There is, and will never be, a definitive
answer about "which is better," or "which one is better for me." 

As for reading, may I point out that I provided you suggested reading
which you spurned? You're, of course, welcome to spurn me, but you are
not then in a position to say you've not received an answer. Just
because you might not get an answer you like doesn't mean you haven't
been answered.

Re: Linux system...dressed downfrom yesterday.

[Karen Lewellen]

and may I remind you that I have asked you not to answer this exchange. 
Therefore you are intentionally being disruptive, supporting my feelings 
about just how helpful you really wish to be here.
you suggested I read your material, I have demurred.  Please spare us another 
day of janina defending herself.
You have no idea what is or  is not helpful to another person.
Please Janina, do not answer my posts again.
I dislike your manner of treating others and I do not want to prolong a 
discussion with more of this.


On Tue, 28 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:

> You're not going to find a comparison of distros. From time to time
> someone tries to write such a thing, but even these occasional efforts
> are quickly out of date and therefore unhelpful.
>
> As I'm sure has been said here over and over, distros are very much a
> matter of personal choice. There is, and will never be, a definitive
> answer about "which is better," or "which one is better for me."
>
> As for reading, may I point out that I provided you suggested reading
> which you spurned? You're, of course, welcome to spurn me, but you are
> not then in a position to say you've not received an answer. Just
> because you might not get an answer you like doesn't mean you haven't
> been answered.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Linux system...dressed downfrom yesterday.

[Janina Sajka]

You're on a public list and your posts go to a public list. I have as
much right to answer any posting there as you do.

If you don't want to hear from me just put me in your kill list. That's
your job, not mine.


Karen Lewellen writes:
> and may I remind you that I have asked you not to answer this exchange. 
> Therefore you are intentionally being disruptive, supporting my feelings 
> about just how helpful you really wish to be here.
> you suggested I read your material, I have demurred.  Please spare us 
> another day of janina defending herself.
> You have no idea what is or  is not helpful to another person.
> Please Janina, do not answer my posts again.
> I dislike your manner of treating others and I do not want to prolong a 
> discussion with more of this.
> 
> 
> On Tue, 28 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:
> 
> >You're not going to find a comparison of distros. From time to time
> >someone tries to write such a thing, but even these occasional efforts
> >are quickly out of date and therefore unhelpful.
> >
> >As I'm sure has been said here over and over, distros are very much a
> >matter of personal choice. There is, and will never be, a definitive
> >answer about "which is better," or "which one is better for me."
> >
> >As for reading, may I point out that I provided you suggested reading
> >which you spurned? You're, of course, welcome to spurn me, but you are
> >not then in a position to say you've not received an answer. Just
> >because you might not get an answer you like doesn't mean you haven't
> >been answered.
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Chair
				Accessibility Workgroup
				Free Standards Group (FSG)

janina@freestandards.org	Phone: +1 202.494.7040

Re: Linux system...dressed downfrom yesterday.

[Karen Lewellen]

You are saying that indeed you will intentionally and deliberately 
disregard the stated requests of any other lister.  Thanks again for 
illustrating my point.
I could kill you yes, but i prefer your knowing instead that from this 
point forward I am just ignoring your  disrespectful behavior.  Or I may 
kill you have not decided yet grin.
You could of course Kill me instead and save us both a great deal of 
unpleasantness.  It must be rather stressful being on the defence all the 
time.


On Tue, 28 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:

> You're on a public list and your posts go to a public list. I have as
> much right to answer any posting there as you do.
>
> If you don't want to hear from me just put me in your kill list. That's
> your job, not mine.
>
>
> Karen Lewellen writes:
>> and may I remind you that I have asked you not to answer this exchange.
>> Therefore you are intentionally being disruptive, supporting my feelings
>> about just how helpful you really wish to be here.
>> you suggested I read your material, I have demurred.  Please spare us
>> another day of janina defending herself.
>> You have no idea what is or  is not helpful to another person.
>> Please Janina, do not answer my posts again.
>> I dislike your manner of treating others and I do not want to prolong a
>> discussion with more of this.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 28 Sep 2004, Janina Sajka wrote:
>>
>>> You're not going to find a comparison of distros. From time to time
>>> someone tries to write such a thing, but even these occasional efforts
>>> are quickly out of date and therefore unhelpful.
>>>
>>> As I'm sure has been said here over and over, distros are very much a
>>> matter of personal choice. There is, and will never be, a definitive
>>> answer about "which is better," or "which one is better for me."
>>>
>>> As for reading, may I point out that I provided you suggested reading
>>> which you spurned? You're, of course, welcome to spurn me, but you are
>>> not then in a position to say you've not received an answer. Just
>>> because you might not get an answer you like doesn't mean you haven't
>>> been answered.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> -- 
>
> 				Janina Sajka, Chair
> 				Accessibility Workgroup
> 				Free Standards Group (FSG)
>
> janina@freestandards.org	Phone: +1 202.494.7040
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Linux system...dressed downfrom yesterday.

[Janina Sajka]

In this context, 'kill' is a term of art. It refers to the technology
which automatically deletes email that matches certain criteria. It's
typically available via several mail handling utilities, including mail
clients.

It may be an unfortunate term, but that's another issue that you can
take up or ignore.

Karen Lewellen writes:
> You are saying that indeed you will intentionally and deliberately 
> disregard the stated requests of any other lister.  Thanks again for 
> illustrating my point.
Not what I said at all, just how you chose to read me.

Re: Linux system...dressed downfrom yesterday.

[Kenny Hitt]

Hi.  Ok,  I'll try.

On Tue, Sep 28, 2004 at 08:08:28AM -0400, Karen Lewellen wrote:
<snip>

> >I will ask them again.
> >If one wants to compare distribution packages, pros and cons of  them, 
> >where can one go?  and second is there one good book or set of text that 
> >is a Linux guide from commands up?

You aren't likely to find any comparison of distros.  One person's cool
feature is another's anoying problem.  The best you can do is look at
the web site for a distro and decide if it has the features you like.
Linux is all about choice.  You don't notice this because you use a
shell account on another computer.  You are limited by the admin to the
programs and behaviors set by the owners.  When you have your own Linux
box, you can change every program on the system to something you like.
The real differences with distros is the type of packaging system used
and the decisions on default apps.  You can't change the packaging
system, but you can change the apps.  Some thoughts to help you narrow
down your decisions are below.

If you want to install without sighted assistance, then you
probably want to only look at Debian, Fedora, Slackware, or Gentoo.
Since you say you don't want to compile software, Gentoo and Slackware
are probably not for you.  If you have to use Pine for email, then you
probably want Fedora.  Because of licensing, Debian doesn't have a
package for Pine.  In Debian, you would have to build Pine from source.
Debian and Slackware have docs written for the beginner specific to
their distro, don't know about Fedora.  You can get intro books for
Linux from www.empowermentzone.com.  Just search the page for Linux.

> >I  have no problem learning as i go, when i got my first computer, I 
> >learned operating system, major programs screen readers and the like in 
> >two days, and have rained others on operating systems, including  older 
> >editions of windows.
> >i will certainly not be in a situation of using commands I do not 
> >understand, as there are only certain tasks I want to perform with this 
> >machine.
> >

You aren't likely to learn Linux in 2 days.  If you just want a Linux
system to work and start using quickly with no effort, pay someone to
install and maintain it for you.  Of course if you take that root, you
will have to use the programs They decide and the system will only work
the way they want.

> >I am guessing that things like  listening to audio on line become easy 
> >with a Linux desktop, something that I cannot do on my shell, as it is not 
> >tied to my system directly..

Yes, I can listen to ogg, mp3, Real audio, or Windows Media with no
problems.

> >I have not heard much discussion of firefox here, or even opera, which may 
> >not run in Linux, but if accessing media sites and taking part in online 
> >conferences < another feature I have not heard talked of here>   is still 
> >a windows thing than this box may become a Linux/windows one.
All those programs exist in Linux, but they are GUI apps that aren't
accessible.  There are accessible apps for text chat, but forget the
browsers.

> >Part of my work requires me to  listen to archived programs, an increasing 
> >number of mpu setups, and the like.

You can listen to them with console apps.

> >As for Anne's suggestion to contact a local Linux users group, before this 
> >morning I would have said there were none.  I have searched on occasion, 
> >and found none, but apparently one has been started.  Whether this will 
> >translate into someone interested in helping me locate the hardware and do 
> >the installation remains to be seen.
> >I am sorry but I flat disagree as to the time idea.  I have a job and run 
> >a production company.  I want indeed to read up as much as i can  so as to 
> >choose the distribution best for me, guide the choices of system 
> equipment,  and  run the programs, but I would rather 
> >get someone else to help with or actually do the  installation and work 
> >with the hardware.  Its my  time and my money, and I do not think i will 
> >be using commands with no understanding of them.  No reason why this 
> >should happen.

It sounds like you should pay someone to set up a Linux box for you and
don't give you the root password.  Either that or just stick with
windows.  Linux isn't for everyone, and it would seem it isn't for you.

Hope this helps.
          Kenny

Re: Linux system...dressed downfrom yesterday.

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi,
Much of this is most helpful.  Let me clear up what i mean by a 
comparative site for distributions.
I was thinking of a place that lists the programs included in each 
distribution package, so I would know what  features and options I am 
getting or losing in each choice.
Between your outline below, and a site referenced some posts back, you may 
have accomplished this.
I am also not using windows, and intended to get someone to work with me, 
not for me.
I want to have to fine tune as little as possible, but realize some fine 
tuning will be needful as the latest distribution I choose may not have 
the absolute  latest apps as it were.
If text chat is an option, as in my logging into a site where chat is 
taking place and  doing this, not as in msn or aol messenger, than it 
s should be fine.
Still this is not such an important thing that I would dump Linux all 
together.
I am not sure why you may feel Linux is not for me,  Time choice and 
experience will indicate this, but all the more reason not to use my 
primary machine for this.
   Given so much of Linux is unaccessible in any  case  I may find i have 
three machines in the end,  The one I use  now, a Linux only or 
Linux/windows structure to make use of what can be done including finding 
comparable Linux solutions  to the GUI programs if possible, and the mac I 
already know i need for  another aspect of my professional life.  All 
used to the best of their ability, but all contributing  all the way 
around.
I 
will not be using what said person likes, as said person will be 
installing under my direction,  I am serious as to getting educated. 
There is a happy medium between doing it all myself and giving the project 
over entirely to another, I  am sorry you have not  personally experienced 
this, but I have many many times.
  To 
my mind it will be no different than having sighted assistance for this, 
and if  I choose a distribution  which does not really require this, than 
perhaps they are assisting  me with the hardware only.
Hard to say, still your wisdom here contributes tot he investigation. 
Thanks
Karen

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004, Kenny Hitt wrote:

> Hi.  Ok,  I'll try.
>

Re: Linux system...dressed downfrom yesterday.

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

Ladies, ladies, please!  No blood, please no blood, if you must yowl
and scratch each other, please make sure that there is no blood.  I
hate the sight of blood!  

What's all the hoopla?  If I were choosing a distribution of Linux,
and I needed help, I would tend to choose the one which was used by
the most people whom I felt might be able to help me.  Might I suggest
that Karen you try looking into Debian.  It is a user friendly distro,
and I think you may have more luck in getting help installing it.
You may also want to begin the reading program which Janina has
outlined.  Why?  Because as you begin to do things in Linux, you will
learn to understand what you read.  

I know that the documentation may seem daunting, but I'd prefer having
docs to not having them.  <Psst> I'll tell you a secret about linuxers
in general.  If you make an effort to read documentation, they are
much more likely to help you.  It's sort of an initiation thing,
Karen.  It proves you're willing to stick with the thing and not just
let other people do it for you.  We're an independent lot here, and we
encourage self learning, independent exploration and independent
thought.  

Therefore, the ability to say, "I read the man page on chmod, what
does this mean?"  Makes a terrific impression because it says you're
an independent explorer too.  Now, if you want help by having somebody
set up your system for you, then you've got to agree to begin to learn
how to use that system and to take an active part in what goes on.  If
you want a system configured for you, suggest you contact Gary
Lawrence Murphy,  at:  garym@canada.com.  I dunnow if he's still
building Linux systems for people, but you might try.  In the mean
time, please, no blood, I just *hate* the sight of blood!!

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  
Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Correction about Pine and debian; was Linux system...dressed downfrom yesterday.

[Cheryl Homiak]

Just a little correction.
Pine now has .deb packages on their website so no, you don't have to 
compile from source in debian if you don't want to do that. I think this 
just started with version 4.60.



-- 
Cheryl

"Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

Re: Linux system...dressed downfrom yesterday.

[Gregory Nowak]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Tue, Sep 28, 2004 at 08:31:31AM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> As I'm sure has been said here over and over, distros are very much a
> matter of personal choice. There is, and will never be, a definitive
> answer about "which is better," or "which one is better for me." 
> 

Hmm, we either have a contradiction here, or you meant to say isn't,
instead of saying is in a couple places in the above quote.

Greg



- -- 
Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org
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Re: Linux system...dressed downfrom yesterday.

[Janina Sajka]

Gregory Nowak writes:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On Tue, Sep 28, 2004 at 08:31:31AM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > As I'm sure has been said here over and over, distros are very much a
> > matter of personal choice. There is, and will never be, a definitive
> > answer about "which is better," or "which one is better for me." 
> > 
> 
> Hmm, we either have a contradiction here, or you meant to say isn't,
> instead of saying is in a couple places in the above quote.

You're right, but I think only one place, namely the first.
Sorry about that.

> 
> Greg
> 
> 
> 
> - -- 
> Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux)
> 
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> C8lTuMasIDA+uY/xPPFfrKE=
> =VTeT
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Chair
				Accessibility Workgroup
				Free Standards Group (FSG)

janina@freestandards.org	Phone: +1 202.494.7040

Re: Linux system...dressed downfrom yesterday.

[Karen Lewellen]

Anne,
lol!
But mom...... can i make blood if i clean up afterwards? grin.
Of course I plan to read everything, although i need not rely on Janina's 
ideas as i have gotten many off list and from early research.
believe me, as someone who has had to spend a lot of time reading and 
understanding federal regulations the documentation reads like a fiction 
novel.
My idea of having the system built for me has to start with my reading and 
understanding programs and commands, as I intend to tell the party 
involved what is desired.  Cannot do this without understanding the 
situation, in fact that may have been
The mistake I made with the system I thought I was going to get.  Trusting 
the person to be forthright.
In any case your idea crosses many professions, people take your questions 
more seriously if you have done your homework.
I intend to do this fully, choosing the package that gives me what i 
require, and reading all i can find.
If nothing else I will have a lot of good research for a radio story.
Thanks  for the funny Anne, and thanks to all who have given me ideas for 
my search both on list and off.
Karen

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004, Ann Parsons wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Ladies, ladies, please!  No blood, please no blood, if you must yowl
> and scratch each other, please make sure that there is no blood.  I
> hate the sight of blood!
>
> What's all the hoopla?  If I were choosing a distribution of Linux,
> and I needed help, I would tend to choose the one which was used by
> the most people whom I felt might be able to help me.  Might I suggest
> that Karen you try looking into Debian.  It is a user friendly distro,
> and I think you may have more luck in getting help installing it.
> You may also want to begin the reading program which Janina has
> outlined.  Why?  Because as you begin to do things in Linux, you will
> learn to understand what you read.
>
> I know that the documentation may seem daunting, but I'd prefer having
> docs to not having them.  <Psst> I'll tell you a secret about linuxers
> in general.  If you make an effort to read documentation, they are
> much more likely to help you.  It's sort of an initiation thing,
> Karen.  It proves you're willing to stick with the thing and not just
> let other people do it for you.  We're an independent lot here, and we
> encourage self learning, independent exploration and independent
> thought.
>
> Therefore, the ability to say, "I read the man page on chmod, what
> does this mean?"  Makes a terrific impression because it says you're
> an independent explorer too.  Now, if you want help by having somebody
> set up your system for you, then you've got to agree to begin to learn
> how to use that system and to take an active part in what goes on.  If
> you want a system configured for you, suggest you contact Gary
> Lawrence Murphy,  at:  garym@canada.com.  I dunnow if he's still
> building Linux systems for people, but you might try.  In the mean
> time, please, no blood, I just *hate* the sight of blood!!
>
> Ann P.
>
> -- 
> 			Ann K. Parsons
> email:  akp@eznet.net
> WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> "All that is gold does not glitter.
> Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Linux system...dressed downfrom yesterday.

[Sean M McMahon]

On something you said in your post, doesn't debian offer pine in the 
non-free section of their mirrors?