RE: An Accessible Adobe Reader for Linux

RE: An Accessible Adobe Reader for Linux

[Dawes, Stephen]

Jinina and all,

Don't forget about the service that Adobe provides that converts PDF to
either text or html formats.

If you come across a pdf file that you want to read on the Web, you
simply submit the url to the adobe conversion tool and it does the
conversion for you and then you can read it with your browser of choice.
The text solution requires you to email the pdf file to adobe's
conversion tool and they email you back the converted file almost
immediately.

So, you can already read PDF from linux if you need or so choose, to do
so. 

The Adobe conversion tool and all you want to know about it can be found
at:
http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/access_onlinetools.html




Stephen Dawes  <B.A., B.Sc.>
Management Systems Analyst
The City of Calgary                   |  Phone: (403) 268-5527
Information Technology #8245          |  Fax:   (403) 268-2546
   PO Box 2100 Postal Station M.      |  Email: Stephen.Dawes@calgary.ca
   Calgary, Alberta, Canada. T2P 2M5  |  Web:   http://www.calgary.ca
 



NOTICE -
This communication is intended ONLY for the use of the person or entity named above and may contain information that is confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient named above or a person responsible for delivering messages or communications to the intended recipient, YOU ARE HEREBY NOTIFIED that any use, distribution, or copying of this communication or any of the information contained in it is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone and then destroy or delete this communication, or return it to us by mail if requested by us. The City of Calgary thanks you for your attention and cooperation.

Re: An Accessible Adobe Reader for Linux

[Gregory Nowak]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

That's interesting, since I seem to recall that adobee suspended that
service a while back, due to the fact that acrobat reader 5 provides
accessibility. Of course, they did fail to mention that you had to
have a fairly recent windows screenreader for it to work (grrrr). 

Greg


On Mon, Jan 10, 2005 at 10:21:43AM -0700, Dawes, Stephen wrote:
> Jinina and all,
> 
> Don't forget about the service that Adobe provides that converts PDF to
> either text or html formats.
> 
> If you come across a pdf file that you want to read on the Web, you
> simply submit the url to the adobe conversion tool and it does the
> conversion for you and then you can read it with your browser of choice.
> The text solution requires you to email the pdf file to adobe's
> conversion tool and they email you back the converted file almost
> immediately.
> 
> So, you can already read PDF from linux if you need or so choose, to do
> so. 
> 
> The Adobe conversion tool and all you want to know about it can be found
> at:
> http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/access_onlinetools.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stephen Dawes  <B.A., B.Sc.>
> Management Systems Analyst
> The City of Calgary                   |  Phone: (403) 268-5527
> Information Technology #8245          |  Fax:   (403) 268-2546
>    PO Box 2100 Postal Station M.      |  Email: Stephen.Dawes@calgary.ca
>    Calgary, Alberta, Canada. T2P 2M5  |  Web:   http://www.calgary.ca
>  
> 
> 
> 
> NOTICE -
> This communication is intended ONLY for the use of the person or entity named above and may contain information that is confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient named above or a person responsible for delivering messages or communications to the intended recipient, YOU ARE HEREBY NOTIFIED that any use, distribution, or copying of this communication or any of the information contained in it is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone and then destroy or delete this communication, or return it to us by mail if requested by us. The City of Calgary thanks you for your attention and cooperation.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> !DSPAM:41e2b9ea299913092664996!
> 
> 

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Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org

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Re: An Accessible Adobe Reader for Linux

[Laura Eaves]

Well, on windows, acrobat7 is actually the release that makes pdf 
accessible -- if you have jaws6 that is.  but it is interesting that a 
similar update is being created for linux.
I'm not familiar with gnopernicus, but does anyone know what hooks are used 
there to make an app accessible? on windows it is MSAA.
Or is the interface the same as MSAA?
Just curious.
--le

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gregory Nowak" <greg@romuald.net.eu.org>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 12:49 PM
Subject: Re: An Accessible Adobe Reader for Linux


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

That's interesting, since I seem to recall that adobee suspended that
service a while back, due to the fact that acrobat reader 5 provides
accessibility. Of course, they did fail to mention that you had to
have a fairly recent windows screenreader for it to work (grrrr).

Greg


On Mon, Jan 10, 2005 at 10:21:43AM -0700, Dawes, Stephen wrote:
> Jinina and all,
>
> Don't forget about the service that Adobe provides that converts PDF to
> either text or html formats.
>
> If you come across a pdf file that you want to read on the Web, you
> simply submit the url to the adobe conversion tool and it does the
> conversion for you and then you can read it with your browser of choice.
> The text solution requires you to email the pdf file to adobe's
> conversion tool and they email you back the converted file almost
> immediately.
>
> So, you can already read PDF from linux if you need or so choose, to do
> so.
>
> The Adobe conversion tool and all you want to know about it can be found
> at:
> http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/access_onlinetools.html
>
>
>
>
> Stephen Dawes  <B.A., B.Sc.>
> Management Systems Analyst
> The City of Calgary                   |  Phone: (403) 268-5527
> Information Technology #8245          |  Fax:   (403) 268-2546
>    PO Box 2100 Postal Station M.      |  Email: Stephen.Dawes@calgary.ca
>    Calgary, Alberta, Canada. T2P 2M5  |  Web:   http://www.calgary.ca
>
>
>
>
> NOTICE -
> This communication is intended ONLY for the use of the person or entity 
> named above and may contain information that is confidential or legally 
> privileged. If you are not the intended recipient named above or a person 
> responsible for delivering messages or communications to the intended 
> recipient, YOU ARE HEREBY NOTIFIED that any use, distribution, or copying 
> of this communication or any of the information contained in it is 
> strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, 
> please notify us immediately by telephone and then destroy or delete this 
> communication, or return it to us by mail if requested by us. The City of 
> Calgary thanks you for your attention and cooperation.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> !DSPAM:41e2b9ea299913092664996!
>
>

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_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 

Re: An Accessible Adobe Reader for Linux

[Janina Sajka]

To learn about the "hooks," as you call them, consult the developer
pages at:

http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gap/

Laura Eaves writes:
> Well, on windows, acrobat7 is actually the release that makes pdf 
> accessible -- if you have jaws6 that is.  but it is interesting that a 
> similar update is being created for linux.
> I'm not familiar with gnopernicus, but does anyone know what hooks are used 
> there to make an app accessible? on windows it is MSAA.
> Or is the interface the same as MSAA?


Definitely not MSAA. <shudder>


After all, that's Microsoft's proprietary property, right? Not open
source nor a free license at all. 

> Just curious.
> --le

Re: An Accessible Adobe Reader for Linux

[Laura Eaves]

Hi -- thanks for the link -- I'll take a look -- but as for MSAA, the 
library implementation is proprietary to Microsoft, but the interface is 
not -- in fact the library is available for use in any windows app, whether 
developed on linux or whatever.  In fact I have heard firefox is using it 
for its windows implementation.  I guess what I was wondering is if the same 
or at least similar object library interface might be appropriate for use 
cross platform.  Of course the underlying implementation would be different, 
but the information passed to a screen reader -- say to recognize text boxes 
and navigate controls on a GUI -- would be enough the same that the MSAA 
interface could be used.
But now that I think of it, Microsoft I hear is going another direction with 
respect to accessibility, so that MSAA may become obsolete for windows in a 
a year or two.  Ah the joys of competition...  Perhaps they are thinking of 
grabbing business away from the screen reader companies??? they deny it but 
if they are removing MSAA I assume there is a reason.
Take care.
--le

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@rednote.net>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 10:11 AM
Subject: Re: An Accessible Adobe Reader for Linux


To learn about the "hooks," as you call them, consult the developer
pages at:

http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gap/

Laura Eaves writes:
> Well, on windows, acrobat7 is actually the release that makes pdf
> accessible -- if you have jaws6 that is.  but it is interesting that a
> similar update is being created for linux.
> I'm not familiar with gnopernicus, but does anyone know what hooks are 
> used
> there to make an app accessible? on windows it is MSAA.
> Or is the interface the same as MSAA?


Definitely not MSAA. <shudder>


After all, that's Microsoft's proprietary property, right? Not open
source nor a free license at all.

> Just curious.
> --le

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 

Re: An Accessible Adobe Reader for Linux

[Janina Sajka]

I don't believe msaa is held in very high regard on gnome and kde. In
fact, MS is abandoning it with Longhorn.

Laura Eaves writes:
> Hi -- thanks for the link -- I'll take a look -- but as for MSAA, the 
> library implementation is proprietary to Microsoft, but the interface is 
> not -- in fact the library is available for use in any windows app, whether 
> developed on linux or whatever.  In fact I have heard firefox is using it 
> for its windows implementation.  I guess what I was wondering is if the same 
> or at least similar object library interface might be appropriate for use 
> cross platform.  Of course the underlying implementation would be different, 
> but the information passed to a screen reader -- say to recognize text boxes 
> and navigate controls on a GUI -- would be enough the same that the MSAA 
> interface could be used.
> But now that I think of it, Microsoft I hear is going another direction with 
> respect to accessibility, so that MSAA may become obsolete for windows in a 
> a year or two.  Ah the joys of competition...  Perhaps they are thinking of 
> grabbing business away from the screen reader companies??? they deny it but 
> if they are removing MSAA I assume there is a reason.
> Take care.
> --le
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@rednote.net>
> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 10:11 AM
> Subject: Re: An Accessible Adobe Reader for Linux
> 
> 
> To learn about the "hooks," as you call them, consult the developer
> pages at:
> 
> http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gap/
> 
> Laura Eaves writes:
> > Well, on windows, acrobat7 is actually the release that makes pdf
> > accessible -- if you have jaws6 that is.  but it is interesting that a
> > similar update is being created for linux.
> > I'm not familiar with gnopernicus, but does anyone know what hooks are 
> > used
> > there to make an app accessible? on windows it is MSAA.
> > Or is the interface the same as MSAA?
> 
> 
> Definitely not MSAA. <shudder>
> 
> 
> After all, that's Microsoft's proprietary property, right? Not open
> source nor a free license at all.
> 
> > Just curious.
> > --le
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 

Janina Sajka				Phone: +1.202.494.7040
Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC	http://www.CapitalAccessibility.Com

Chair, Accessibility Workgroup		Free Standards Group (FSG)
janina@freestandards.org		http://a11y.org

If Linux can't solve your computing problem, you need a different problem.

Re: An Accessible Adobe Reader for Linux

[Chris Gray]

At best, MSAA mode was little more than a bandage.  Let's hope that 
something more positive can come out of Longhorn.  One of the primary 
reasons I am setting up a Linux box is to check out Gnome; what I've 
seen so far of its access is quite impressive though it has a ways to 
go for certain.

Chris

unsubscribe!

[Outside Touch]

How do you unsubscribe|!

John

Re: unsubscribe!

[Luke Yelavich]

On Wed, Jan 12, 2005 at 07:50:53AM EST, Outside Touch wrote:
> How do you unsubscribe|!

At the bottom of every email you get from the list is a web address. 
This takes you to the information page about the list. From there you 
can enter your email address at the bottom to change your options and 
unsubscribe. You need to know your password for the list to do so, but 
it is easy to get a reminder about it.

Hope this helps.

Luke
kk

Re: An Accessible Adobe Reader for Linux

[Janina Sajka]

Linux accessibility, at least for users who are blind, is far more
impressive on the console. In fact, it's extremely impressive on the
console rivaling, and even surpassing, many things that users of
expensive proprietary-ware applications have. The biggest thing wrong
with the console is in fact the very negative and dismissive attitude
that many GUI people seem to have of it.



Chris Gray writes:
> At best, MSAA mode was little more than a bandage.  Let's hope that 
> something more positive can come out of Longhorn.  One of the primary 
> reasons I am setting up a Linux box is to check out Gnome; what I've 
> seen so far of its access is quite impressive though it has a ways to 
> go for certain.
> 
> Chris
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 

Janina Sajka				Phone: +1.202.494.7040
Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC	http://www.CapitalAccessibility.Com

Chair, Accessibility Workgroup		Free Standards Group (FSG)
janina@freestandards.org		http://a11y.org

If Linux can't solve your computing problem, you need a different problem.

Re: An Accessible Adobe Reader for Linux

[Laura Eaves]

Yes, linux and unix have always been more accessible because they are not 
GUI, and I assume the console is text based and not graphical -- or am I 
wrong? the last time I used a unix/linux system was in the mid 90s and most 
all work was done command-line.  I have joined this list as I am getting a 
second pc in order to install and use linux for various reasons, and I want 
to check out all the accessibility advancements since I moved to a windows 
environment.
But just as sighted linux users dismiss the console interface, as you say, I 
think it is equally inappropriate for a blind user to completely ignore the 
GNOME GUI approach, and trying to make it accessible, as running a GUI 
actually is a little more than just a bunch of icons covering up the same 
operations -- the whole underpinning is implemented in an even-driven manner 
and there is a different way of thinking of things -- well actually I 
rejected GUI's for a very long time at work because I still had enough sight 
to use screen mag for work, and could not use the GUI stuff when it reared 
its ugly head... but after I lost my reading vision and switched to 
windows -- partly to get experienced using speech and partly because I was 
curious about its accessibility, I have actually gotten to like some of its 
aspects, and can see that if made accessible, it is actually rather nice. 
But I still miss unix extremely, and the flexibility, and the power of 
things and clean way it handles system operations compared with windows...
Sorry I didn't mean to get off on this thread -- I guess I just wanted to 
make the point that I am glad for the diversion I made into GUI apps and am 
actually glad (if you can believe it) that I lost my vision in order to 
force me to stop depending on it, and with my programming background I think 
GUI programs can be very useful and accessible.
But there has to be a way to access the same functionality from the gui --  
to get back to command line when necessary, query for available commands and 
docs, run scripts, etc.  That is possible in windows but so much more 
awkward!  It is truely a straight jacket compared to linux.
Take care and I have enjoyed lurking on this list.  I am learning a lot 
about speakup, which is why I joined.
Take care.
--le




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@rednote.net>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 4:58 PM
Subject: Re: An Accessible Adobe Reader for Linux


Linux accessibility, at least for users who are blind, is far more
impressive on the console. In fact, it's extremely impressive on the
console rivaling, and even surpassing, many things that users of
expensive proprietary-ware applications have. The biggest thing wrong
with the console is in fact the very negative and dismissive attitude
that many GUI people seem to have of it.



Chris Gray writes:
> At best, MSAA mode was little more than a bandage.  Let's hope that
> something more positive can come out of Longhorn.  One of the primary
> reasons I am setting up a Linux box is to check out Gnome; what I've
> seen so far of its access is quite impressive though it has a ways to
> go for certain.
>
> Chris
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 

Janina Sajka Phone: +1.202.494.7040
Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC http://www.CapitalAccessibility.Com

Chair, Accessibility Workgroup Free Standards Group (FSG)
janina@freestandards.org http://a11y.org

If Linux can't solve your computing problem, you need a different problem.


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 

Re: An Accessible Adobe Reader for Linux

[Janina Sajka]

Laura, you're correct that the console interface is character based. 

And, I also want to say that we're not ignoring Gnome. It just doesn't
do anything very useful yet.

On the other hand, since you're a programmer, let me comment that the
opportunity is there to make alternative interfaces for gnome apps,
given the object architecture that support accessibility. In other
words, it isn't necessarrily the gui which can provide access to a gnome
app. It is possible to querry all available objects on the gnome
desktop, or for a particular app, and obtain data, including text
labels, data values, etc. So, it is reasonable to consider that one
might, for instance, create an ncurses interface to gui applications. No
one has built such an interface to my knowledge, but the opportunity is
there. And there is a tool that exposes this data, though it does it
graphically and it is not itself accessible by design--in order to avoid
infinite regression. The tool is called at-poke.

I would love to see some apps from the gnome desktop made accessible
this way, while we wait for the gnome screen reader to become really
usable, because there is intrinsically no reason to paint the gui for
the user who can't appreciate it. In fact, it could be considered a
waste of resources so to do.

Laura Eaves writes:
> Yes, linux and unix have always been more accessible because they are not 
> GUI, and I assume the console is text based and not graphical -- or am I 
> wrong? the last time I used a unix/linux system was in the mid 90s and most 
> all work was done command-line.  I have joined this list as I am getting a 
> second pc in order to install and use linux for various reasons, and I want 
> to check out all the accessibility advancements since I moved to a windows 
> environment.
> But just as sighted linux users dismiss the console interface, as you say, I 
> think it is equally inappropriate for a blind user to completely ignore the 
> GNOME GUI approach, and trying to make it accessible, as running a GUI 
> actually is a little more than just a bunch of icons covering up the same 
> operations -- the whole underpinning is implemented in an even-driven manner 
> and there is a different way of thinking of things -- well actually I 
> rejected GUI's for a very long time at work because I still had enough sight 
> to use screen mag for work, and could not use the GUI stuff when it reared 
> its ugly head... but after I lost my reading vision and switched to 
> windows -- partly to get experienced using speech and partly because I was 
> curious about its accessibility, I have actually gotten to like some of its 
> aspects, and can see that if made accessible, it is actually rather nice. 
> But I still miss unix extremely, and the flexibility, and the power of 
> things and clean way it handles system operations compared with windows...
> Sorry I didn't mean to get off on this thread -- I guess I just wanted to 
> make the point that I am glad for the diversion I made into GUI apps and am 
> actually glad (if you can believe it) that I lost my vision in order to 
> force me to stop depending on it, and with my programming background I think 
> GUI programs can be very useful and accessible.
> But there has to be a way to access the same functionality from the gui --  
> to get back to command line when necessary, query for available commands and 
> docs, run scripts, etc.  That is possible in windows but so much more 
> awkward!  It is truely a straight jacket compared to linux.
> Take care and I have enjoyed lurking on this list.  I am learning a lot 
> about speakup, which is why I joined.
> Take care.
> --le

Re: An Accessible Adobe Reader for Linux

[Adam Myrow]

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005, Janina Sajka wrote:

> It is possible to query all available objects on the gnome desktop, or 
> for a particular app, and obtain data, including text labels, data 
> values, etc. So, it is reasonable to consider that one might, for 
> instance, create an ncurses interface to gui applications. No one has 
> built such an interface to my knowledge, but the opportunity is there.

Actually, somebody has tried this.  It is known as "cursing GTK."  I 
haven't tried it out, mainly because the person who was working on this 
wasn't exactly fluent in English, and I couldn't comprehend exactly what 
one would need to do to get it working.  In any case, the web site for 
this is at: http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/cursed/cursed.html.  As 
I said, the English is pretty bad, but apparently, somebody with a lot of 
patience might be able to make use of this.

Re: An Accessible Adobe Reader for Linux

[Sean McMahon]

This is something speakup could access?
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Adam Myrow" <amyrow@midsouth.rr.com>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 6:18 PM
Subject: Re: An Accessible Adobe Reader for Linux


> On Tue, 11 Jan 2005, Janina Sajka wrote:
> 
> > It is possible to query all available objects on the gnome desktop, or 
> > for a particular app, and obtain data, including text labels, data 
> > values, etc. So, it is reasonable to consider that one might, for 
> > instance, create an ncurses interface to gui applications. No one has 
> > built such an interface to my knowledge, but the opportunity is there.
> 
> Actually, somebody has tried this.  It is known as "cursing GTK."  I 
> haven't tried it out, mainly because the person who was working on this 
> wasn't exactly fluent in English, and I couldn't comprehend exactly what 
> one would need to do to get it working.  In any case, the web site for 
> this is at: http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/cursed/cursed.html.  As 
> I said, the English is pretty bad, but apparently, somebody with a lot of 
> patience might be able to make use of this.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: An Accessible Adobe Reader for Linux

[Sean McMahon]

The linux command line sometimes works like a gui.  Not everything is straight
type a command and hit enter to see what you get.  Applications like emacs and
lynx have menus where you use arro keys and such to navigate.  In the windows
world, the gui is better because it has more operations then the windows
console.  Of course in linux things like multitasking, menu navigation for
certain programs, and using more and les to controll how much output you get on
a screen, give the console all of the power and some of the friendliness of the
gui.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Laura Eaves" <leaves1@carolina.rr.com>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 3:29 PM
Subject: Re: An Accessible Adobe Reader for Linux


> Yes, linux and unix have always been more accessible because they are not
> GUI, and I assume the console is text based and not graphical -- or am I
> wrong? the last time I used a unix/linux system was in the mid 90s and most
> all work was done command-line.  I have joined this list as I am getting a
> second pc in order to install and use linux for various reasons, and I want
> to check out all the accessibility advancements since I moved to a windows
> environment.
> But just as sighted linux users dismiss the console interface, as you say, I
> think it is equally inappropriate for a blind user to completely ignore the
> GNOME GUI approach, and trying to make it accessible, as running a GUI
> actually is a little more than just a bunch of icons covering up the same
> operations -- the whole underpinning is implemented in an even-driven manner
> and there is a different way of thinking of things -- well actually I
> rejected GUI's for a very long time at work because I still had enough sight
> to use screen mag for work, and could not use the GUI stuff when it reared
> its ugly head... but after I lost my reading vision and switched to
> windows -- partly to get experienced using speech and partly because I was
> curious about its accessibility, I have actually gotten to like some of its
> aspects, and can see that if made accessible, it is actually rather nice.
> But I still miss unix extremely, and the flexibility, and the power of
> things and clean way it handles system operations compared with windows...
> Sorry I didn't mean to get off on this thread -- I guess I just wanted to
> make the point that I am glad for the diversion I made into GUI apps and am
> actually glad (if you can believe it) that I lost my vision in order to
> force me to stop depending on it, and with my programming background I think
> GUI programs can be very useful and accessible.
> But there has to be a way to access the same functionality from the gui -- 
> to get back to command line when necessary, query for available commands and
> docs, run scripts, etc.  That is possible in windows but so much more
> awkward!  It is truely a straight jacket compared to linux.
> Take care and I have enjoyed lurking on this list.  I am learning a lot
> about speakup, which is why I joined.
> Take care.
> --le
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@rednote.net>
> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 4:58 PM
> Subject: Re: An Accessible Adobe Reader for Linux
>
>
> Linux accessibility, at least for users who are blind, is far more
> impressive on the console. In fact, it's extremely impressive on the
> console rivaling, and even surpassing, many things that users of
> expensive proprietary-ware applications have. The biggest thing wrong
> with the console is in fact the very negative and dismissive attitude
> that many GUI people seem to have of it.
>
>
>
> Chris Gray writes:
> > At best, MSAA mode was little more than a bandage.  Let's hope that
> > something more positive can come out of Longhorn.  One of the primary
> > reasons I am setting up a Linux box is to check out Gnome; what I've
> > seen so far of its access is quite impressive though it has a ways to
> > go for certain.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> -- 
>
> Janina Sajka Phone: +1.202.494.7040
> Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC http://www.CapitalAccessibility.Com
>
> Chair, Accessibility Workgroup Free Standards Group (FSG)
> janina@freestandards.org http://a11y.org
>
> If Linux can't solve your computing problem, you need a different problem.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: An Accessible Adobe Reader for Linux

[Gregory Nowak]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I'm not surprised. Microsoft never stuck to their own, or
anyone else's standards for very long (snicker).

Greg


On Tue, Jan 11, 2005 at 12:32:13PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> I don't believe msaa is held in very high regard on gnome and kde. In
> fact, MS is abandoning it with Longhorn.
> 

- -- 
Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org

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Re: An Accessible Adobe Reader for Linux

[Sean McMahon]

Someone stop me if I'm wrong.  Gnome has it's own accessibility api.  Actually
there's one for gtk+ created programs, one for java and one for mozilla.  These
are of course free standards and have the potential to be more documented and
more accessible then those in windows.  How well gnome works I think right now
is more of an oppinion from those who use it, I'm not going there yet.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Laura Eaves" <leaves1@carolina.rr.com>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 10:48 PM
Subject: Re: An Accessible Adobe Reader for Linux


> Well, on windows, acrobat7 is actually the release that makes pdf
> accessible -- if you have jaws6 that is.  but it is interesting that a
> similar update is being created for linux.
> I'm not familiar with gnopernicus, but does anyone know what hooks are used
> there to make an app accessible? on windows it is MSAA.
> Or is the interface the same as MSAA?
> Just curious.
> --le
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Gregory Nowak" <greg@romuald.net.eu.org>
> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 12:49 PM
> Subject: Re: An Accessible Adobe Reader for Linux
>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> That's interesting, since I seem to recall that adobee suspended that
> service a while back, due to the fact that acrobat reader 5 provides
> accessibility. Of course, they did fail to mention that you had to
> have a fairly recent windows screenreader for it to work (grrrr).
>
> Greg
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 10, 2005 at 10:21:43AM -0700, Dawes, Stephen wrote:
> > Jinina and all,
> >
> > Don't forget about the service that Adobe provides that converts PDF to
> > either text or html formats.
> >
> > If you come across a pdf file that you want to read on the Web, you
> > simply submit the url to the adobe conversion tool and it does the
> > conversion for you and then you can read it with your browser of choice.
> > The text solution requires you to email the pdf file to adobe's
> > conversion tool and they email you back the converted file almost
> > immediately.
> >
> > So, you can already read PDF from linux if you need or so choose, to do
> > so.
> >
> > The Adobe conversion tool and all you want to know about it can be found
> > at:
> > http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/access_onlinetools.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Stephen Dawes  <B.A., B.Sc.>
> > Management Systems Analyst
> > The City of Calgary                   |  Phone: (403) 268-5527
> > Information Technology #8245          |  Fax:   (403) 268-2546
> >    PO Box 2100 Postal Station M.      |  Email: Stephen.Dawes@calgary.ca
> >    Calgary, Alberta, Canada. T2P 2M5  |  Web:   http://www.calgary.ca
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > NOTICE -
> > This communication is intended ONLY for the use of the person or entity
> > named above and may contain information that is confidential or legally
> > privileged. If you are not the intended recipient named above or a person
> > responsible for delivering messages or communications to the intended
> > recipient, YOU ARE HEREBY NOTIFIED that any use, distribution, or copying
> > of this communication or any of the information contained in it is
> > strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error,
> > please notify us immediately by telephone and then destroy or delete this
> > communication, or return it to us by mail if requested by us. The City of
> > Calgary thanks you for your attention and cooperation.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> > !DSPAM:41e2b9ea299913092664996!
> >
> >
>
> - -- 
> Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org
>
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>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: An Accessible Adobe Reader for Linux

[Gregory Nowak]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Yes, I believe that jaws got into the acrobat reader accessibility
game a bit later then window-eyes did. Yes, I also realize this is getting
way off topic, so I'll stop now.

Greg


On Tue, Jan 11, 2005 at 12:48:34AM -0500, Laura Eaves wrote:
> Well, on windows, acrobat7 is actually the release that makes pdf 
> accessible -- if you have jaws6 that is.  but it is interesting that a 
> similar update is being created for linux.
> I'm not familiar with gnopernicus, but does anyone know what hooks are used 
> there to make an app accessible? on windows it is MSAA.
> Or is the interface the same as MSAA?
> Just curious.
> --le
> 

- -- 
Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org

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Re: An Accessible Adobe Reader for Linux

[Janina Sajka]

Yes, Stephen, it's good to remind people of the cgi interface to
pdftotext available at a web address.


Dawes, Stephen writes:
> Jinina and all,
> 
> Don't forget about the service that Adobe provides that converts PDF to
> either text or html formats.
> 
> If you come across a pdf file that you want to read on the Web, you
> simply submit the url to the adobe conversion tool and it does the
> conversion for you and then you can read it with your browser of choice.
> The text solution requires you to email the pdf file to adobe's
> conversion tool and they email you back the converted file almost
> immediately.
> 
> So, you can already read PDF from linux if you need or so choose, to do
> so. 
> 
> The Adobe conversion tool and all you want to know about it can be found
> at:
> http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/access_onlinetools.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stephen Dawes  <B.A., B.Sc.>
> Management Systems Analyst
> The City of Calgary                   |  Phone: (403) 268-5527
> Information Technology #8245          |  Fax:   (403) 268-2546
>    PO Box 2100 Postal Station M.      |  Email: Stephen.Dawes@calgary.ca
>    Calgary, Alberta, Canada. T2P 2M5  |  Web:   http://www.calgary.ca
>  
> 
> 
> 
> NOTICE -
> This communication is intended ONLY for the use of the person or entity named above and may contain information that is confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient named above or a person responsible for delivering messages or communications to the intended recipient, YOU ARE HEREBY NOTIFIED that any use, distribution, or copying of this communication or any of the information contained in it is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone and then destroy or delete this communication, or return it to us by mail if requested by us. The City of Calgary thanks you for your attention and cooperation.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 

Janina Sajka				Phone: +1.202.494.7040
Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC	http://www.CapitalAccessibility.Com

Chair, Accessibility Workgroup		Free Standards Group (FSG)
janina@freestandards.org		http://a11y.org

If Linux can't solve your computing problem, you need a different problem.

Re: An Accessible Adobe Reader for Linux

[Laura Eaves]

Hi Janina --
I tried sending this once before but it bounced due to message size...
But as for gnome:
That is interesting about the query capabilities of the gnome interface --
but I disagree that implementing a full ncurses, text-only representation
based on these queries is necessary, as that would just require a lot of
useless code to do screen layout of text when graphical screen layout has
already been done by gnome, right? Actually, some users don't know this, but
with MSAA, the in MS Internet Explorer for example, the screen reader
queries the browser for the relevant text and label info for speech and
braille purposes, but lets the browser continue to display whatever pictures
and even animation happen to be on the page.  Of course, there are still
some things that aren't accessible, such as some messaging apps and also
text that continually updates that drives screen readers crazy, but the
effect is that a sighted person can come to a browser session and see and
describe a picture at the same time the blind person is hearing the alt text
spoken by the screen reader.
I know that as long as visual effects are possible, new and innovative
applications will come out that will trash a screen reader, and screen
readers will have to play catchup for accessibility, but it is still nice to
know that you don't have to construct your own text screen in order to
access a gui -- all you need is information hooks to get useful data.
If I ever get this machine up and running -- and I don't even have the pc or
the hardware synth yet -- I will probably look more into such things.
Meanwhile, enjoy!
Take care.
--le

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@rednote.net>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 7:15 PM
Subject: Re: An Accessible Adobe Reader for Linux


Laura, you're correct that the console interface is character based.

And, I also want to say that we're not ignoring Gnome. It just doesn't
do anything very useful yet.

On the other hand, since you're a programmer, let me comment that the
opportunity is there to make alternative interfaces for gnome apps,
given the object architecture that support accessibility. In other
words, it isn't necessarrily the gui which can provide access to a gnome
app. It is possible to querry all available objects on the gnome
desktop, or for a particular app, and obtain data, including text
labels, data values, etc. So, it is reasonable to consider that one
might, for instance, create an ncurses interface to gui applications. No
one has built such an interface to my knowledge, but the opportunity is
there. And there is a tool that exposes this data, though it does it
graphically and it is not itself accessible by design--in order to avoid
infinite regression. The tool is called at-poke.

I would love to see some apps from the gnome desktop made accessible
this way, while we wait for the gnome screen reader to become really
usable, because there is intrinsically no reason to paint the gui for
the user who can't appreciate it. In fact, it could be considered a
waste of resources so to do.

Re: An Accessible Adobe Reader for Linux

[Janina Sajka]

Laura Eaves writes:
> Hi Janina --
> I tried sending this once before but it bounced due to message size...
> But as for gnome:
> That is interesting about the query capabilities of the gnome interface --
> but I disagree that implementing a full ncurses, text-only representation
> based on these queries is necessary, as that would just require a lot of
> useless code to do screen layout of text when graphical screen layout has
> already been done by gnome, right? Actually, some users don't know this, but
dGo

I didn't say it was necessary. I said it was possible and that there are
good reasons to consider doing it that way, not the least of which being
that gnome is not very accessible, whereas the console is.

> queries the browser for the relevant text and label info for speech and
> braille purposes, but lets the browser continue to display whatever pictures
> and even animation happen to be on the page.  Of course, there are still
> some things that aren't accessible, such as some messaging apps and also
> text that continually updates that drives screen readers crazy, but the
> effect is that a sighted person can come to a browser session and see and
> describe a picture at the same time the blind person is hearing the alt text
> spoken by the screen reader.
> I know that as long as visual effects are possible, new and innovative
> applications will come out that will trash a screen reader, and screen
> readers will have to play catchup for accessibility, but it is still nice to
> know that you don't have to construct your own text screen in order to
> access a gui -- all you need is information hooks to get useful data.
> If I ever get this machine up and running -- and I don't even have the pc or
> the hardware synth yet -- I will probably look more into such things.
> Meanwhile, enjoy!
> Take care.
> --le
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@rednote.net>
> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 7:15 PM
> Subject: Re: An Accessible Adobe Reader for Linux
> 
> 
> Laura, you're correct that the console interface is character based.
> 
> And, I also want to say that we're not ignoring Gnome. It just doesn't
> do anything very useful yet.
> 
> On the other hand, since you're a programmer, let me comment that the
> opportunity is there to make alternative interfaces for gnome apps,
> given the object architecture that support accessibility. In other
> words, it isn't necessarrily the gui which can provide access to a gnome
> app. It is possible to querry all available objects on the gnome
> desktop, or for a particular app, and obtain data, including text
> labels, data values, etc. So, it is reasonable to consider that one
> might, for instance, create an ncurses interface to gui applications. No
> one has built such an interface to my knowledge, but the opportunity is
> there. And there is a tool that exposes this data, though it does it
> graphically and it is not itself accessible by design--in order to avoid
> infinite regression. The tool is called at-poke.
> 
> I would love to see some apps from the gnome desktop made accessible
> this way, while we wait for the gnome screen reader to become really
> usable, because there is intrinsically no reason to paint the gui for
> the user who can't appreciate it. In fact, it could be considered a
> waste of resources so to do.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 

Janina Sajka				Phone: +1.202.494.7040
Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC	http://www.CapitalAccessibility.Com

Chair, Accessibility Workgroup		Free Standards Group (FSG)
janina@freestandards.org		http://a11y.org

If Linux can't solve your computing problem, you need a different problem.

Re: An Accessible Adobe Reader for Linux

[Kenny Hitt]

Hi.  Can you provide examples where writing a ncurses program to act as
the interface to a Gnome app would be helpful?  Based on my experience
with Gnome, if the program provides the accessibility info, then it is
accessible in Gnome.  If it doesn't provide the accessibility info, I
can't see how adding the extra layer of an ncurses app talking to a GTK
app will help.
I agree Gnome screen readers still need work, but wouldn't it be better
to focus on improving them?

          Kenny
	  
On Tue, Jan 11, 2005 at 09:09:59PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> Laura Eaves writes:
> > Hi Janina --
> > I tried sending this once before but it bounced due to message size...
> > But as for gnome:
> > That is interesting about the query capabilities of the gnome interface --
> > but I disagree that implementing a full ncurses, text-only representation
> > based on these queries is necessary, as that would just require a lot of
> > useless code to do screen layout of text when graphical screen layout has
> > already been done by gnome, right? Actually, some users don't know this, but
> dGo
> 
> I didn't say it was necessary. I said it was possible and that there are
> good reasons to consider doing it that way, not the least of which being
> that gnome is not very accessible, whereas the console is.
> 

Re: An Accessible Adobe Reader for Linux

[Janina Sajka]

This is a reasonable question, Kenny.

Let me start by agreeing that, all things being equal, there's nothing
to be gained. But, all things aren't equal. For example, it takes much
more in the way of system resources to run gnome with reasonable
performance. The difference isn't slight, but quite large. For the blind
user, those are all wasted resources, wasted on painting a gui that we
don't see.

Another example is portability. I'm expecting several devices will
become available in the next year or two that run Linux--portable
devices that you carry around like you might carry a Braille Note today.
These will be ncurses capable, but will undoubtedly not be gnopernicus
capable.

Lastly, there's the inequality of the AT itself. Of course someone
should continue working on gnopernicus, and someone will. I'm not sure
there has been much "we" in that process, despite the open license, for
various reasons. I'm not sure how much "we" there will be going forward
either, for various reasons. But, I am sure there will be continued
development until a robust, reliable, and effective screen reader for
the gui emerges. I'm sure there will be such a thing, and I'm sure it
will read QT4 based apps as well as GTK+ ones, because the fat cats need
such a screen reader to keep selling to our Uncle Sam.

Now, I will confess to a certain degree of impatience. However, that's
not the whole story. Most to the point, I don't believe it would be
necessary to contrive a ncurses interface for each individual app one
wanted to port. If that were so, I would judge such a suggestion futile.
The beauty of at-poke resides in the fact that it is generic. It simply
generates a report. I believe that "report" could be turned into a
generic, interactive menu. Remember that there is a gnome AT tool called
gok, the gnome on screen keyboard. It's designed to accept input, where
gnopernicus is designed to deliver alternative output. Gok can take
input from all kinds of mechanisms, simple serial switch on up. And, it
handles them very intelligently. Unlike gnopernicus, it is a gnome
accessibility success already.


Kenny Hitt writes:
> Hi.  Can you provide examples where writing a ncurses program to act as
> the interface to a Gnome app would be helpful?  Based on my experience
> with Gnome, if the program provides the accessibility info, then it is
> accessible in Gnome.  If it doesn't provide the accessibility info, I
> can't see how adding the extra layer of an ncurses app talking to a GTK
> app will help.
> I agree Gnome screen readers still need work, but wouldn't it be better
> to focus on improving them?
> 
>           Kenny
> 	  
> On Tue, Jan 11, 2005 at 09:09:59PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > Laura Eaves writes:
> > > Hi Janina --
> > > I tried sending this once before but it bounced due to message size...
> > > But as for gnome:
> > > That is interesting about the query capabilities of the gnome interface --
> > > but I disagree that implementing a full ncurses, text-only representation
> > > based on these queries is necessary, as that would just require a lot of
> > > useless code to do screen layout of text when graphical screen layout has
> > > already been done by gnome, right? Actually, some users don't know this, but
> > dGo
> > 
> > I didn't say it was necessary. I said it was possible and that there are
> > good reasons to consider doing it that way, not the least of which being
> > that gnome is not very accessible, whereas the console is.
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 

Janina Sajka				Phone: +1.202.494.7040
Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC	http://www.CapitalAccessibility.Com

Chair, Accessibility Workgroup		Free Standards Group (FSG)
janina@freestandards.org		http://a11y.org

If Linux can't solve your computing problem, you need a different problem.

RE: An Accessible Adobe Reader for Linux

[Dawes, Stephen]

There is no mention of this service being disabled on the page I sent
the list.



Stephen Dawes  <B.A., B.Sc.>
Management Systems Analyst
The City of Calgary                   |  Phone: (403) 268-5527
Information Technology #8245          |  Fax:   (403) 268-2546
   PO Box 2100 Postal Station M.      |  Email: Stephen.Dawes@calgary.ca
   Calgary, Alberta, Canada. T2P 2M5  |  Web:   http://www.calgary.ca
 



NOTICE -
This communication is intended ONLY for the use of the person or entity named above and may contain information that is confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient named above or a person responsible for delivering messages or communications to the intended recipient, YOU ARE HEREBY NOTIFIED that any use, distribution, or copying of this communication or any of the information contained in it is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone and then destroy or delete this communication, or return it to us by mail if requested by us. The City of Calgary thanks you for your attention and cooperation.

An Accessible Adobe Reader for Linux

[Janina Sajka]

Dear Friends:

Adobe Corporation has established a web page were one can apply for
early, beta program access to their next generation Adobe Reader for
Linux. This next edition will, according to Adobe, support accessibility
through the Gnome. The URL is:

https://adobe.centercode.com/callout/default.html?callid={4EE7B13E-2D84-4AF6-A27B-E8FD6C94A42F}



-- 

Janina Sajka				Phone: +1.202.494.7040
Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC	http://www.CapitalAccessibility.Com

Chair, Accessibility Workgroup		Free Standards Group (FSG)
janina@freestandards.org		http://a11y.org

If Linux can't solve your computing problem, you need a different problem.