* anti-word @ Gregory Nowak ` anti-word Dave Hunt ` anti-word Thomas Ward 0 siblings, 2 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Gregory Nowak @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Hi all, Kirk W mentioned anti-word in a reply. I searched freshmeat, but couldn't find it. Where do I get anti-word from? Can it write as well as read word files? Thanks. Greg ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word anti-word Gregory Nowak @ ` Dave Hunt ` anti-word Janina Sajka ` anti-word Thomas Ward 1 sibling, 1 reply; 108+ messages in thread From: Dave Hunt @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup It's called "antiword", and should be on freshmeat.net. It cannot write MS Word files. -Dave ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Dave Hunt @ ` Janina Sajka ` anti-word Gregory Nowak 0 siblings, 1 reply; 108+ messages in thread From: Janina Sajka @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup On Wed, 9 Jan 2002, Dave Hunt wrote: > ... It's called "antiword", ... It > cannot write MS Word files. It isn't necessary to write MS-Word, it's only necessary to read it correctly. Users of Word can read text or HTML perfectly well. > > -Dave > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > -- Janina Sajka, Director Technology Research and Development Governmental Relations Group American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 Chair, Accessibility SIG Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) http://www.openebook.org ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Janina Sajka @ ` Gregory Nowak ` anti-word Janina Sajka 0 siblings, 1 reply; 108+ messages in thread From: Gregory Nowak @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Why do you say it isn't necessary to write word documents when that format is being used widely in the work place and academic settings today? Greg On Thu, Jan 10, 2002 at 09:47:31AM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote: > On Wed, 9 Jan 2002, Dave Hunt wrote: > > > ... It's called "antiword", ... It > > cannot write MS Word files. > > It isn't necessary to write MS-Word, it's only necessary to read it > correctly. Users of Word can read text or HTML perfectly well. > > > > > > -Dave > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > -- > > Janina Sajka, Director > Technology Research and Development > Governmental Relations Group > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > Chair, Accessibility SIG > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > http://www.openebook.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Gregory Nowak @ ` Janina Sajka ` ms-word, was: anti-word Gregory Nowak ` anti-word Amanda Lee 0 siblings, 2 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Janina Sajka @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Because everyone sitting in Word can perfectly easily retrieve a .txt or .html without knowing they did it. On Thu, 10 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > Why do you say it isn't necessary to write word documents when that format is being used widely in the work place and academic settings today? > Greg > > > On Thu, Jan 10, 2002 at 09:47:31AM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote: > > On Wed, 9 Jan 2002, Dave Hunt wrote: > > > > > ... It's called "antiword", ... It > > > cannot write MS Word files. > > > > It isn't necessary to write MS-Word, it's only necessary to read it > > correctly. Users of Word can read text or HTML perfectly well. > > > > > > > > > > -Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Speakup mailing list > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > -- > > > > Janina Sajka, Director > > Technology Research and Development > > Governmental Relations Group > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > > http://www.openebook.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > -- Janina Sajka, Director Technology Research and Development Governmental Relations Group American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 Chair, Accessibility SIG Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) http://www.openebook.org ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* ms-word, was: Re: anti-word ` anti-word Janina Sajka @ ` Gregory Nowak ` Janina Sajka ` anti-word Amanda Lee 1 sibling, 1 reply; 108+ messages in thread From: Gregory Nowak @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Ok, but people also write in word in addition to reading in it when they're in windows. Greg On Thu, Jan 10, 2002 at 04:27:55PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote: > Because everyone sitting in Word can perfectly easily retrieve a .txt or > .html without knowing they did it. > > On Thu, 10 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > Why do you say it isn't necessary to write word documents when that format is being used widely in the work place and academic settings today? > > Greg > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 10, 2002 at 09:47:31AM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote: > > > On Wed, 9 Jan 2002, Dave Hunt wrote: > > > > > > > ... It's called "antiword", ... It > > > > cannot write MS Word files. > > > > > > It isn't necessary to write MS-Word, it's only necessary to read it > > > correctly. Users of Word can read text or HTML perfectly well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Janina Sajka, Director > > > Technology Research and Development > > > Governmental Relations Group > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > > > http://www.openebook.org > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Speakup mailing list > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > -- > > Janina Sajka, Director > Technology Research and Development > Governmental Relations Group > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > Chair, Accessibility SIG > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > http://www.openebook.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: ms-word, was: Re: anti-word ` ms-word, was: anti-word Gregory Nowak @ ` Janina Sajka ` Amanda Lee ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Janina Sajka @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup On Thu, 10 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > Ok, but people also write in word in addition to reading in it when they're in windows. Greg: We're going in circles here. You need something like wv in order to read those Word files that people send out. You don't need to send them Word files in order for them to read what you write in plain text or in html, because they can perfectly well read your text or html using their Word application on Windows. Do you see the circle? > Greg > > > On Thu, Jan 10, 2002 at 04:27:55PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote: > > Because everyone sitting in Word can perfectly easily retrieve a .txt or > > .html without knowing they did it. > > > > On Thu, 10 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > > > Why do you say it isn't necessary to write word documents when that format is being used widely in the work place and academic settings today? > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 10, 2002 at 09:47:31AM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote: > > > > On Wed, 9 Jan 2002, Dave Hunt wrote: > > > > > > > > > ... It's called "antiword", ... It > > > > > cannot write MS Word files. > > > > > > > > It isn't necessary to write MS-Word, it's only necessary to read it > > > > correctly. Users of Word can read text or HTML perfectly well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Janina Sajka, Director > > > > Technology Research and Development > > > > Governmental Relations Group > > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > > > > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > > > > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG > > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > > > > http://www.openebook.org > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Speakup mailing list > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > -- > > > > Janina Sajka, Director > > Technology Research and Development > > Governmental Relations Group > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > > http://www.openebook.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > -- Janina Sajka, Director Technology Research and Development Governmental Relations Group American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 Chair, Accessibility SIG Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) http://www.openebook.org ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: ms-word, was: Re: anti-word ` Janina Sajka @ ` Amanda Lee ` Gregory Nowak ` Gregory Nowak ` Steve Holmes 2 siblings, 1 reply; 108+ messages in thread From: Amanda Lee @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Word Files, as is the case with anything in Windows, are unnecessarily full of overhead just to convey text. I like to use Notepad a lot for various tasks and it is much faster than Word or even Wordpad which will read Word6 format. So why create extra unnecessary overhead in the first place. If you need to enhance a document with special fonts, formatting, etc., then fine but most times, Word is a huge hog. Amanda Lee Alexandria, VA ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: ms-word, was: Re: anti-word ` Amanda Lee @ ` Gregory Nowak ` Janina Sajka 0 siblings, 1 reply; 108+ messages in thread From: Gregory Nowak @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup The instances I'm thinking of actually involve formatting. I use the bns for most of my word processing, and I find myself using it's extensive formatting features a lot. Greg On Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 11:56:05AM -0500, Amanda Lee wrote: > Word Files, as is the case with anything in Windows, are unnecessarily > full of overhead just to convey text. I like to use Notepad a lot for > various tasks and it is much faster than Word or even Wordpad which will > read Word6 format. So why create extra unnecessary overhead in the first > place. If you need to enhance a document with special fonts, formatting, > etc., then fine but most times, Word is a huge hog. > > Amanda Lee > Alexandria, VA > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: ms-word, was: Re: anti-word ` Gregory Nowak @ ` Janina Sajka 0 siblings, 0 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Janina Sajka @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup On Fri, 11 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > The instances I'm thinking of actually involve formatting. I use the bns for most of my word processing, and I find myself using it's extensive formatting features a lot. > > If you need to enhance a document with special fonts, formatting, > > etc., then fine but most times, Word is a huge hog. You can also use html for this. It has wonderful tags such as <center> <strong> <emphasis> (which is not the same), etc. And, it lets you link other documents and other locations in the same document. Having said all this, I should point out that this same topic has cropped up on blinux in the last 24 hours. An interesting tool was suggested there called "Almost Free Text." Find it at: http://www.maplefish.com/todd/aft.html ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: ms-word, was: Re: anti-word ` Janina Sajka ` Amanda Lee @ ` Gregory Nowak ` Janina Sajka ` Steve Holmes 2 siblings, 1 reply; 108+ messages in thread From: Gregory Nowak @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup I see the circle, I just wanted to play a little devil's advocate to see what your answer would be out of interest. Sorry if it annoyed you. Btw, what is wv? Greg On Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 11:26:44AM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote: > On Thu, 10 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > Ok, but people also write in word in addition to reading in it when they're in windows. > > Greg: We're going in circles here. You need something like wv in order to > read those Word files that people send out. You don't need to send them > Word files in order for them to read what you write in plain text or in > html, because they can perfectly well read your text or html using their > Word application on Windows. > > Do you see the circle? > > Greg > > > > On Thu, Jan 10, 2002 at 04:27:55PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote: > > > Because everyone sitting in Word can perfectly easily retrieve a .txt or > > > .html without knowing they did it. > > > > > > On Thu, 10 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > > > > > Why do you say it isn't necessary to write word documents when that format is being used widely in the work place and academic settings today? > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 10, 2002 at 09:47:31AM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote: > > > > > On Wed, 9 Jan 2002, Dave Hunt wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > ... It's called "antiword", ... It > > > > > > cannot write MS Word files. > > > > > > > > > > It isn't necessary to write MS-Word, it's only necessary to read it > > > > > correctly. Users of Word can read text or HTML perfectly well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > Janina Sajka, Director > > > > > Technology Research and Development > > > > > Governmental Relations Group > > > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > > > > > > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > > > > > > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG > > > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > > > > > http://www.openebook.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Janina Sajka, Director > > > Technology Research and Development > > > Governmental Relations Group > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > > > http://www.openebook.org > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Speakup mailing list > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > -- > > Janina Sajka, Director > Technology Research and Development > Governmental Relations Group > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > Chair, Accessibility SIG > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > http://www.openebook.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: ms-word, was: Re: anti-word ` Gregory Nowak @ ` Janina Sajka 0 siblings, 0 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Janina Sajka @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup wv used to be known as word view. It is believed that Microsoft objected to that. It's at http://wvware.org and it's gpl. No problem. -- Janina Sajka, Director Technology Research and Development Governmental Relations Group American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 Chair, Accessibility SIG Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) http://www.openebook.org ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: ms-word, was: Re: anti-word ` Janina Sajka ` Amanda Lee ` Gregory Nowak @ ` Steve Holmes ` Janina Sajka 2 siblings, 1 reply; 108+ messages in thread From: Steve Holmes @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup If it is a circle, it is a vicious one. It's one thing to update the original document and work it as a text doc in your favorite unix editor but doing this destroys all formatting and styles originnaly placed with the word processor, hence we need a word compatible word processor for linuw. On Fri, 11 Jan 2002, Janina Sajka wrote: > On Thu, 10 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > Ok, but people also write in word in addition to reading in it when they're in windows. > > Greg: We're going in circles here. You need something like wv in order to > read those Word files that people send out. You don't need to send them > Word files in order for them to read what you write in plain text or in > html, because they can perfectly well read your text or html using their > Word application on Windows. > > Do you see the circle? > > Greg > > > > On Thu, Jan 10, 2002 at 04:27:55PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote: > > > Because everyone sitting in Word can perfectly easily retrieve a .txt or > > > .html without knowing they did it. > > > > > > On Thu, 10 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > > > > > Why do you say it isn't necessary to write word documents when that format is being used widely in the work place and academic settings today? > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 10, 2002 at 09:47:31AM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote: > > > > > On Wed, 9 Jan 2002, Dave Hunt wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > ... It's called "antiword", ... It > > > > > > cannot write MS Word files. > > > > > > > > > > It isn't necessary to write MS-Word, it's only necessary to read it > > > > > correctly. Users of Word can read text or HTML perfectly well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > Janina Sajka, Director > > > > > Technology Research and Development > > > > > Governmental Relations Group > > > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > > > > > > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > > > > > > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG > > > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > > > > > http://www.openebook.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Janina Sajka, Director > > > Technology Research and Development > > > Governmental Relations Group > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > > > http://www.openebook.org > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Speakup mailing list > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: ms-word, was: Re: anti-word ` Steve Holmes @ ` Janina Sajka 0 siblings, 0 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Janina Sajka @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote: > If it is a circle, it is a vicious one. It's one thing to update the > original document and work it as a text doc in your favorite unix editor > but doing this destroys all formatting and styles originnaly placed with > the word processor, hence we need a word compatible word processor for > linuw. Sorry, you are wrong. First of all, it is unusual to get a word processed document properly formatted. Most often their creators create some semblance of formatting by assuming that pushing text around the screen, a little left, a little right, a little up and a little down by whatever means constitutes appropriate formatting. It doesnt, but the explanations are lengthy. So, I'll drop that and assume, for the purpose of my reply, that they've formatted correctly. So, if the document is correctly formatted, it will correctly translate into another formatting schema, provided the document formatting usage is published. One simply maps one to the other, and formatting is preserved, to be edited by the next person, and so on. Recall that html is but one way to keep organizational formatting intact. Unfortunately, Microsoft doesn't release it's specs for Word, so the best we can do is reverse engineer. Therefore, if it doesn't translate well, the sender gets what they deserve, the fruits of their arrogance. Please note that Word arrogance extends well beyond their proprietary .doc file format. The html generated by Word is attrocious, for example. And Microsoft's attempts to redefine high ASCII values, and muck with consensus character sets is, to my mind, the height of arrogance. I do not regard it my duty to protect such people from the consequences of their own folly. > > On Fri, 11 Jan 2002, Janina Sajka wrote: > > > On Thu, 10 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > > > Ok, but people also write in word in addition to reading in it when they're in windows. > > > > Greg: We're going in circles here. You need something like wv in order to > > read those Word files that people send out. You don't need to send them > > Word files in order for them to read what you write in plain text or in > > html, because they can perfectly well read your text or html using their > > Word application on Windows. > > > > Do you see the circle? > > > Greg > > > > > On Thu, Jan 10, 2002 at 04:27:55PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote: > > > > Because everyone sitting in Word can perfectly easily retrieve a .txt or > > > > .html without knowing they did it. > > > > > > > > On Thu, 10 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > > > > > > > Why do you say it isn't necessary to write word documents when that format is being used widely in the work place and academic settings today? > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 10, 2002 at 09:47:31AM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote: > > > > > > On Wed, 9 Jan 2002, Dave Hunt wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > ... It's called "antiword", ... It > > > > > > > cannot write MS Word files. > > > > > > > > > > > > It isn't necessary to write MS-Word, it's only necessary to read it > > > > > > correctly. Users of Word can read text or HTML perfectly well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > Janina Sajka, Director > > > > > > Technology Research and Development > > > > > > Governmental Relations Group > > > > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > > > > > > > > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > > > > > > > > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG > > > > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > > > > > > http://www.openebook.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Janina Sajka, Director > > > > Technology Research and Development > > > > Governmental Relations Group > > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > > > > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > > > > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG > > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > > > > http://www.openebook.org > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Speakup mailing list > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > -- Janina Sajka, Director Technology Research and Development Governmental Relations Group American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 Chair, Accessibility SIG Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) http://www.openebook.org ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Janina Sajka ` ms-word, was: anti-word Gregory Nowak @ ` Amanda Lee ` anti-word Gregory Nowak ` anti-word Kirk Wood 1 sibling, 2 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Amanda Lee @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Because Word is designed for idiots! Couldn't resist that one! Amanda Lee ----- Original Message ----- From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 4:27 PM Subject: Re: anti-word > Because everyone sitting in Word can perfectly easily retrieve a .txt or > .html without knowing they did it. > > On Thu, 10 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > Why do you say it isn't necessary to write word documents when that format is being used widely in the work place and academic settings today? > > Greg > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 10, 2002 at 09:47:31AM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote: > > > On Wed, 9 Jan 2002, Dave Hunt wrote: > > > > > > > ... It's called "antiword", ... It > > > > cannot write MS Word files. > > > > > > It isn't necessary to write MS-Word, it's only necessary to read it > > > correctly. Users of Word can read text or HTML perfectly well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Janina Sajka, Director > > > Technology Research and Development > > > Governmental Relations Group > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > > > http://www.openebook.org > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Speakup mailing list > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > -- > > Janina Sajka, Director > Technology Research and Development > Governmental Relations Group > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > Chair, Accessibility SIG > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > http://www.openebook.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Amanda Lee @ ` Gregory Nowak ` anti-word Kirk Wood 1 sibling, 0 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Gregory Nowak @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Yeah, I'll agree with that too. But then, isn't most or all of windblows (grin)? Greg On Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 07:06:32PM -0500, Amanda Lee wrote: > Because Word is designed for idiots! > > Couldn't resist that one! > > Amanda Lee > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 4:27 PM > Subject: Re: anti-word > > > > Because everyone sitting in Word can perfectly easily retrieve a .txt or > > .html without knowing they did it. > > > > On Thu, 10 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > > > Why do you say it isn't necessary to write word documents when that > format is being used widely in the work place and academic settings today? > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 10, 2002 at 09:47:31AM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote: > > > > On Wed, 9 Jan 2002, Dave Hunt wrote: > > > > > > > > > ... It's called "antiword", ... It > > > > > cannot write MS Word files. > > > > > > > > It isn't necessary to write MS-Word, it's only necessary to read it > > > > correctly. Users of Word can read text or HTML perfectly well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Janina Sajka, Director > > > > Technology Research and Development > > > > Governmental Relations Group > > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > > > > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > > > > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG > > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > > > > http://www.openebook.org > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Speakup mailing list > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > -- > > > > Janina Sajka, Director > > Technology Research and Development > > Governmental Relations Group > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > > http://www.openebook.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Amanda Lee ` anti-word Gregory Nowak @ ` Kirk Wood ` anti-word Amanda Lee ` anti-word Steve Holmes 1 sibling, 2 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Kirk Wood @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup On Fri, 11 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote: > Because Word is designed for idiots! I guess all sighted people are idiots. Sorry, but that kind of crap is just plain crap. Yes, word is bloated and adds an incredible amount of stuff. Particularly in the latest incarnations. But it is also clear to me that many here neither understand the sighted world, nor care to at all. That is your right. But don't wine to me when you get left back in the corner next time. Yes, HTML will give pretty decent formatting. It is a good tool for generalized text. But it doesn't support the righ formating of a good word processor. And formatting is important to the sighted world. You don't need to understand it. But you should accept it and deal with it. ======= Kirk Wood Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net Nowlan's Theory: He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from the next freeway exit. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Kirk Wood @ ` Amanda Lee ` anti-word Buddy Brannan ` anti-word Kirk Wood ` anti-word Steve Holmes 1 sibling, 2 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Amanda Lee @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Actually Kirk, I live and function quite nicely in"the sighted World" I use these lousy tools but Word is not a very well-designed wordprocessor. WordPerfect, although it doesn't do html and some of the other features of Word and other more presentation-oriented wordprocessing applications, Word is a very poor product and it is because of MacroSlop's ongoing lack of care about the quality of their products. Throw it out to the Idiots and they will suck it up! The power users I know of and yes there are many who are sighted power users actually use and prefer the keyboard and actually prefer and use something other than Word when given the opportunity. I suppose I could ahve been politically correct and stated: Word is for the masses. But it bothers me a great deal that MacroSlop is so wrought with arrogance and is more interested in being in one's face with a bunch of flashy krap than to present, even to the masses, a quality product as have other vendors of software applications. Amanda Lee Alexandria, VA ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Amanda Lee @ ` Buddy Brannan ` anti-word Kirk Wood 1 sibling, 0 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Buddy Brannan @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Greets from da big apple, Gotta agree with Amanda on this one. Seems to me Word is too full of crap to actually be useful. And that's all I've got to say about that. -- Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV | I choose you to take up all of my time. Email: davros@ycardz.com | I choose you because you're funny and kind | I want easy people from now on. | --the Nields ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Amanda Lee ` anti-word Buddy Brannan @ ` Kirk Wood 1 sibling, 0 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Kirk Wood @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Word is indeed written for the masses. That is the funy thing about a sales driven economy. Most things are for the masses. Guess what? The music on the radio is for the masses as well. The shows on TV are for the masses. The appliances in the stores are for the masses. M$ has indeed stuffed their latest versions of word with a bunch of stuffing. I personally use word97 and refuse to upgrade. I have word 2000 and don't use it. It only bloats the files. I happen to disagree with your assesment of word 95 and 97. I think they are great products. But once m$ got it right, they had to do something to make the next sale. And m$ is built on a false economy. The company will fold if they don't continue to make upgrades. And to sell the upgrades they will add features that are quite asanine. ======= Kirk Wood Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net Nowlan's Theory: He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from the next freeway exit. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Kirk Wood ` anti-word Amanda Lee @ ` Steve Holmes ` anti-word Yvonne Smith ` anti-word Janina Sajka 1 sibling, 2 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Steve Holmes @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing, I'm sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word format along with the built-in formatting, styles and such. Some of this whole anti Word sounds arogant to me. Actually, there are some things in Word an idiot wouldn't know how to use such as the VB macros and such. What we need is a tool that can create word documents that can run from linux and be used with Speakup. After all, that is what this list is about:). On Fri, 11 Jan 2002, Kirk Wood wrote: > On Fri, 11 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote: > > Because Word is designed for idiots! > > I guess all sighted people are idiots. Sorry, but that kind of crap is > just plain crap. Yes, word is bloated and adds an incredible amount of > stuff. Particularly in the latest incarnations. But it is also clear to me > that many here neither understand the sighted world, nor care to at > all. That is your right. But don't wine to me when you get left back in > the corner next time. > > Yes, HTML will give pretty decent formatting. It is a good tool for > generalized text. But it doesn't support the righ formating of a good word > processor. And formatting is important to the sighted world. You don't > need to understand it. But you should accept it and deal with it. > > ======= > Kirk Wood > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net > > Nowlan's Theory: > He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from > the next freeway exit. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Steve Holmes @ ` Yvonne Smith ` anti-word Thomas Ward ` anti-word Janina Sajka 1 sibling, 1 reply; 108+ messages in thread From: Yvonne Smith @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Good grief, a text mode word clone? The amount of work involved in that would be out of this world. I think our only hope here, people, is to hope the eventual speech access to gnome will give us access to some of the word processors in Linux that save in word format. None of them are perfect, but I think an xwindows screen reader would be a lot more productive than trying to write such a beast. And no, this is not a prelude to the "we don't need xwindows" rant that I just know someone is going to reply to this with. I'm with you on this, ok? I might not use speakup much, being a primarily emacspeak user <no, *that* isn't worth going on a rant about either, I learnt emacspeak first and only use speakup occasionally when necessary, personal preference>. Basically I'm much happier in a console or in emacs myself. All I'm saying is that, I can't imagine too many people other than us would have a huge amount of use for a word processor like that. I seem to have vague memories of a console version of word perfect existing at one point, if you bought the commercial version but don't quote me on it. I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist now in any case. What I'm trying to say is, right now, we just have to live with what we've got. If we want to do more than read word documents, we've got to run windows until someone writes a screen reader that'll let us use star office or something of the sort. If we want to use javascript, we've got to use windows until someone writes a screen reader that'll let us use netscape or Galion or something. I know, I know, it's harsh, but most sighted people aren't going to write these for us in console mode. They can already use all this stuff in x, and open source, like it or not, usually involves people writing what they personally have a use for. If none of us can or have the time to write this stuff ourselves, most likely it isn't going to get done. I know, this is harsh, and is probably going to result in me being flamed off the list, since I'm not a regular contributor, or a regular user of speakup, but while I'm here, I thought I'd say it. The same thing applies to kirk, and whoever else writes speakup. They'll write what they need first, and afterwards what other people want if they have the time and feel it's worth it. To get better service than that, you've either got to get involved in a project that more closely mirrors what you need in a program, learn to program yourself and write it yourself, or live with the decisions that the programmers make. That's just the way it is in the open source world, I'm afraid. As someone who doesn't know, and probably never will know c or c++, I'm in the same position as most of you. We can make suggestions, we can make bug reports, and we can help new users with what we know and they don't yet, to pay for what they give us, but that's about it. As it is, at least with speakup or emacspeak or something like that, we can talk to the developers. It isn't going to cost us thousands of dollars for access to what software's available and what we get might more closely resemble what we want, rather than what primarily sighted developers think we want. and finally, just to end this rant and reply to another thread, hardware vs software synthe. again, software speech is something we're all just going to have to live with. I prefer hardware speech myself, but I'm not using it much right now. I'm moving around all the time, often have limited space for things, and I just don't want to fuss with the cables and junk that the hardware synthe brings. Not only that, the amount a hardware synthe costs can put it out of reach for a lot of people. Not to mention, using a laptop with a hardware speech synthe can be a *major* pain in the neck, as a lot of you can testify. It's not something to get into a religious war about. When Tuxtalk is eventually written, those people who don't have a hardware synthe, for whatever reason, will just have to live with the fact that they won't be able to see the early bootup messages. 95% of times, that doesn't matter at all. And in my case, I'll probably end up using both, depending on which is more practical, so if I really get into trouble, I can plug the hardware synthe in and figure out why it is that my linux kernel has suddenly decided not to talk to me. But you aren't going to lose what speakup can currently give you. If you're still using hardware for speech, you'll still get the same output as speakup has always given you, and people who can't or don't want to use a hardware synthe will have access to the linux console, at least, which'll probably bring more blind people into linux, which is a good thing by anyones standards. Now I'm out of here before I rant any more, and going to duck into my flameproof bunker for a while. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Yvonne Smith @ ` Thomas Ward 0 siblings, 0 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Thomas Ward @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Rest assured Sun Micro is working on making Star Office 6 accessible with Gnopernicus. How accessible it will be in the end is open to debate until it shows up. Coming up with a shell based wordprocessor would be dificult and time consuming, and in the end Gnome 2.0 will be out before any of us could complete a vary good release. ----- Original Message ----- From: Yvonne Smith <yvonne@thewatch.net> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 1:46 AM Subject: Re: anti-word > Good grief, a text mode word clone? The amount of work involved in > that would be out of this world. I think our only hope here, people, > is to hope the eventual speech access to gnome will give us access to > some of the word processors in Linux that save in word format. None of > them are perfect, but I think an xwindows screen reader would be a lot more > productive than trying to write such a beast. > And no, this is not a prelude to the "we don't need xwindows" rant > that I just know someone is going to reply to this with. I'm with you > on this, ok? I might not use speakup much, being a primarily emacspeak > user <no, *that* isn't worth going on a rant about either, I learnt > emacspeak first and only use speakup occasionally when necessary, > personal preference>. Basically I'm much happier in a console or in > emacs myself. All I'm saying is that, I can't imagine too many people > other than us would have a huge amount of use for a word processor > like that. I seem to have vague memories of a console version of word > perfect existing at one point, if you bought the commercial version > but don't quote me on it. I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist now in any > case. What I'm trying to say is, right now, we just have to live with > what we've got. If we want to do more than read word documents, we've > got to run windows until someone writes a screen reader that'll let us > use star office or something of the sort. If we want to use > javascript, we've got to use windows until someone writes a screen > reader that'll let us use netscape or Galion or something. I know, I > know, it's harsh, but most sighted people aren't going to write these > for us in console mode. They can already use all this stuff in x, and > open source, like it or not, usually involves people writing what they > personally have a use for. If none of us can or have the time to write > this stuff ourselves, most likely it isn't going to get done. > > I know, this is harsh, and is probably going to result in me being > flamed off the list, since I'm not a regular contributor, or a regular > user of speakup, but while I'm here, I thought I'd say it. The same > thing applies to kirk, and whoever else writes speakup. They'll write > what they need first, and afterwards what other people want if they > have the time and feel it's worth it. To get better service than that, > you've either got to get involved in a project that more closely > mirrors what you need in a program, learn to program yourself and > write it yourself, or live with the decisions that the programmers > make. That's just the way it is in the open source world, I'm > afraid. As someone who doesn't know, and probably never will know c or > c++, I'm in the same position as most of you. We can make suggestions, > we can make bug reports, and we can help new users with what we know > and they don't yet, to pay for what they give us, but that's about > it. > As it is, at least with speakup or emacspeak or something like that, > we can talk to the developers. It isn't going to cost us thousands of > dollars for access to what software's available and what we get might > more closely resemble what we want, rather than what primarily sighted > developers think we want. > > and finally, just to end this rant and reply to another thread, > hardware vs software synthe. again, software speech is something we're > all just going to have to live with. I prefer hardware speech myself, > but I'm not using it much right now. I'm moving around all the time, > often have limited space for things, and I just don't want to fuss > with the cables and junk that the hardware synthe brings. Not only > that, the amount a hardware synthe costs can put it out of reach for a > lot of people. Not to mention, using a laptop with a hardware speech > synthe can be a *major* pain in the neck, as a lot of you can > testify. It's not something to get into a religious war about. When > Tuxtalk is eventually written, those people who don't have a hardware > synthe, for whatever reason, will just have to live with the fact that > they won't be able to see the early bootup messages. 95% of times, > that doesn't matter at all. And in my case, I'll probably end up using > both, depending on which is more practical, so if I really get into > trouble, I can plug the hardware synthe in and figure out why it is > that my linux kernel has suddenly decided not to talk to me. But you > aren't going to lose what speakup can currently give you. If you're > still using hardware for speech, you'll still get the same output as > speakup has always given you, and people who can't or don't want to > use a hardware synthe will have access to the linux console, at least, > which'll probably bring more blind people into linux, which is a good > thing by anyones standards. > > Now I'm out of here before I rant any more, and going to duck into my > flameproof bunker for a while. > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Steve Holmes ` anti-word Yvonne Smith @ ` Janina Sajka ` anti-word Amanda Lee ` (3 more replies) 1 sibling, 4 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Janina Sajka @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote: > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing, I'm > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word format > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such. Some of this whole > anti Word sounds arogant to me. I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file format as some kind of standard. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Janina Sajka @ ` Amanda Lee ` anti-word Charles Crawford ` anti-word Kirk Wood ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 1 reply; 108+ messages in thread From: Amanda Lee @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Amen! to that Janina! Amanda ----- Original Message ----- From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM Subject: Re: anti-word > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote: > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing, I'm > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word format > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such. Some of this whole > > anti Word sounds arogant to me. > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file > format as some kind of standard. > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Amanda Lee @ ` Charles Crawford ` anti-word Gregory Nowak ` anti-word Janina Sajka 0 siblings, 2 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Charles Crawford @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers, Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging on planet Linux. It is correct to point out that in the ideal there should not be a word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all know, the sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see the world in the same way. Don't you just hate it when that happens. Smile. I guess my view is that if word users want to communicate with those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the realities of other computer platforms. Consumer choice still has it's place! -- Charlie Crawford. At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote: >Amen! to that Janina! > >Amanda > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net> >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM >Subject: Re: anti-word > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote: > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing, >I'm > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word >format > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such. Some of this whole > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me. > > > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file > > format as some kind of standard. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Speakup mailing list >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Charles Crawford @ ` Gregory Nowak ` anti-word Janina Sajka ` (3 more replies) ` anti-word Janina Sajka 1 sibling, 4 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Gregory Nowak @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if all they know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off? Greg On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote: > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers, > > Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging on planet > Linux. It is correct to point out that in the ideal there should not be a > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all know, the > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see the world in > the same way. Don't you just hate it when that happens. Smile. > > I guess my view is that if word users want to communicate with > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the realities of > other computer platforms. Consumer choice still has it's place! > > -- Charlie Crawford. > > > > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote: > >Amen! to that Janina! > > > >Amanda > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net> > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM > >Subject: Re: anti-word > > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote: > > > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing, > >I'm > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word > >format > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such. Some of this whole > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me. > > > > > > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file > > > format as some kind of standard. > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Speakup mailing list > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Speakup mailing list > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Gregory Nowak @ ` Janina Sajka ` anti-word Gregory Nowak ` anti-word Amanda Lee ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 1 reply; 108+ messages in thread From: Janina Sajka @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Gregory, I keep telling you this answer, but there's some part of it that you seem to still miss. What part is that? They don't need to know a damm thing to retrieve either a text doc (no formatting), or an html doc (much formatting). They need know nothing special in order to do that. Do you understand this yet? On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if all they know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off? > Greg > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote: > > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers, > > > > Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging on planet > > Linux. It is correct to point out that in the ideal there should not be a > > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all know, the > > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see the world in > > the same way. Don't you just hate it when that happens. Smile. > > > > I guess my view is that if word users want to communicate with > > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the realities of > > other computer platforms. Consumer choice still has it's place! > > > > -- Charlie Crawford. > > > > > > > > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote: > > >Amen! to that Janina! > > > > > >Amanda > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net> > > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM > > >Subject: Re: anti-word > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote: > > > > > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing, > > >I'm > > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word > > >format > > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such. Some of this whole > > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I > > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I > > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file > > > > format as some kind of standard. > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >Speakup mailing list > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > -- Janina Sajka, Director Technology Research and Development Governmental Relations Group American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 Chair, Accessibility SIG Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) http://www.openebook.org ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Janina Sajka @ ` Gregory Nowak ` anti-word Amanda Lee ` (3 more replies) 0 siblings, 4 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Gregory Nowak @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Yes, I do. However, you seem to be missing the point I'm trying to get across here. So, let me give you an example. A professor of mine was handing out something that he had written for the class. Since I knew that he had written it by himself recently, I asked if he could e-mail me a plain text file instead, so I wouldn't need to mess with scannning the handout. His answer to me was: "you mean a word document?" I said "no, I mean a .txt file, a plain ASCII text file." He was still confused, so I said, "like the files that you create with notepad." He said "oh, ok." My point is as it was before. If all they know about their computer is how to turn it on and off, then how are they supposed to know about other platforms if they don't even know for sure what a text file? If some of you on this list want to blame the ignorant professor, then maybe you should blame universities, employers, and the way we learn and work today. Universities and employers are the ones today who tell you they want your papers in 12 point font, and formatted this way or that. Now, how are we supposed to achieve that in something like notepad/emacs/pico? And if someone else is wondering how the hell this guy became a professor without knowing crap about what kinds of files he could produce on his computer, then that is a new question to examine the answer to. Greg On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:29:50PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote: > Gregory, I keep telling you this answer, but there's some part of it that > you seem to still miss. What part is that? > > They don't need to know a damm thing to retrieve either a text doc (no > formatting), or an html doc (much formatting). > > They need know nothing special in order to do that. Do you understand this > yet? > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if all they know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off? > > Greg > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote: > > > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers, > > > > > > Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging on planet > > > Linux. It is correct to point out that in the ideal there should not be a > > > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all know, the > > > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see the world in > > > the same way. Don't you just hate it when that happens. Smile. > > > > > > I guess my view is that if word users want to communicate with > > > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the realities of > > > other computer platforms. Consumer choice still has it's place! > > > > > > -- Charlie Crawford. > > > > > > > > > > > > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote: > > > >Amen! to that Janina! > > > > > > > >Amanda > > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net> > > > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > > > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM > > > >Subject: Re: anti-word > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing, > > > >I'm > > > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word > > > >format > > > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such. Some of this whole > > > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I > > > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I > > > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file > > > > > format as some kind of standard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > >Speakup mailing list > > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Speakup mailing list > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > -- > > Janina Sajka, Director > Technology Research and Development > Governmental Relations Group > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > Chair, Accessibility SIG > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > http://www.openebook.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Gregory Nowak @ ` Amanda Lee ` anti-word Gregory Nowak ` anti-word Janina Sajka ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 1 reply; 108+ messages in thread From: Amanda Lee @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup You are correct. However, all that you needed to do was to point out to your professor that he could easily use "Save As" from the pulldown menu and save his documents for mailing to you in text. I frequenlty do this when I receive Word documents as I will today for two courses I'm taking this week on Networks and Advanced TCP/IP. These I will download to my notetaker as they are smaller and there is a book reader function in my notetaker and so I can read these files while I'm in the taxi going to work or whatever. I agree that the Universities are at the root of much of this but ... they really don't need to know nor do anything other than press the right buttons and click on the desired choice. Amanda Lee ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 1:24 PM Subject: Re: anti-word > Yes, I do. However, you seem to be missing the point I'm trying to get across here. So, let me give you an example. > A professor of mine was handing out something that he had written for the class. Since I knew that he had written it by himself recently, I asked if he could e-mail me a plain text file instead, so I wouldn't need to mess with scannning the handout. His answer to me was: "you mean a word document?" I said "no, I mean a .txt file, a plain ASCII text file." He was still confused, so I said, "like the files that you create with notepad." He said "oh, ok." > > My point is as it was before. If all they know about their computer is how to turn it on and off, then how are they supposed to know about other platforms if they don't even know for sure what a text file? > > If some of you on this list want to blame the ignorant professor, then maybe you should blame universities, employers, and the way we learn and work today. Universities and employers are the ones today who tell you they want your papers in 12 point font, and formatted this way or that. Now, how are we supposed to achieve that in something like notepad/emacs/pico? And if someone else is wondering how the hell this guy became a professor without knowing crap about what kinds of files he could produce on his computer, then that is a new question to examine the answer to. > Greg > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:29:50PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote: > > Gregory, I keep telling you this answer, but there's some part of it that > > you seem to still miss. What part is that? > > > > They don't need to know a damm thing to retrieve either a text doc (no > > formatting), or an html doc (much formatting). > > > > They need know nothing special in order to do that. Do you understand this > > yet? > > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > > > And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if all they know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off? > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote: > > > > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers, > > > > > > > > Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging on planet > > > > Linux. It is correct to point out that in the ideal there should not be a > > > > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all know, the > > > > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see the world in > > > > the same way. Don't you just hate it when that happens. Smile. > > > > > > > > I guess my view is that if word users want to communicate with > > > > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the realities of > > > > other computer platforms. Consumer choice still has it's place! > > > > > > > > -- Charlie Crawford. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote: > > > > >Amen! to that Janina! > > > > > > > > > >Amanda > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net> > > > > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > > > > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM > > > > >Subject: Re: anti-word > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing, > > > > >I'm > > > > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word > > > > >format > > > > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such. Some of this whole > > > > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I > > > > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I > > > > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file > > > > > > format as some kind of standard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > > >Speakup mailing list > > > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Speakup mailing list > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > -- > > > > Janina Sajka, Director > > Technology Research and Development > > Governmental Relations Group > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > > http://www.openebook.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Amanda Lee @ ` Gregory Nowak ` anti-word Charles Hallenbeck 0 siblings, 1 reply; 108+ messages in thread From: Gregory Nowak @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup I think that if I told him to just save it as a text file, he would've been even more confused, unless he was right in front of his monitor able to pull up the save as dialogue right there which he was not at the time. Besides, I don't care how they save it, as long as I get the format I asked for. Greg On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 01:52:47PM -0500, Amanda Lee wrote: > You are correct. However, all that you needed to do was to point out to > your professor that he could easily use "Save As" from the pulldown menu and > save his documents for mailing to you in text. I frequenlty do this when I > receive Word documents as I will today for two courses I'm taking this week > on Networks and Advanced TCP/IP. These I will download to my notetaker as > they are smaller and there is a book reader function in my notetaker and so > I can read these files while I'm in the taxi going to work or whatever. > > I agree that the Universities are at the root of much of this but ... they > really don't need to know nor do anything other than press the right buttons > and click on the desired choice. > > Amanda Lee > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 1:24 PM > Subject: Re: anti-word > > > > Yes, I do. However, you seem to be missing the point I'm trying to get > across here. So, let me give you an example. > > A professor of mine was handing out something that he had written for the > class. Since I knew that he had written it by himself recently, I asked if > he could e-mail me a plain text file instead, so I wouldn't need to mess > with scannning the handout. His answer to me was: "you mean a word > document?" I said "no, I mean a .txt file, a plain ASCII text file." He was > still confused, so I said, "like the files that you create with notepad." He > said "oh, ok." > > > > My point is as it was before. If all they know about their computer is how > to turn it on and off, then how are they supposed to know about other > platforms if they don't even know for sure what a text file? > > > > If some of you on this list want to blame the ignorant professor, then > maybe you should blame universities, employers, and the way we learn and > work today. Universities and employers are the ones today who tell you they > want your papers in 12 point font, and formatted this way or that. Now, how > are we supposed to achieve that in something like notepad/emacs/pico? And if > someone else is wondering how the hell this guy became a professor without > knowing crap about what kinds of files he could produce on his computer, > then that is a new question to examine the answer to. > > Greg > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:29:50PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote: > > > Gregory, I keep telling you this answer, but there's some part of it > that > > > you seem to still miss. What part is that? > > > > > > They don't need to know a damm thing to retrieve either a text doc (no > > > formatting), or an html doc (much formatting). > > > > > > They need know nothing special in order to do that. Do you understand > this > > > yet? > > > > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > > > > > And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if all > they know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off? > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote: > > > > > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers, > > > > > > > > > > Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging on > planet > > > > > Linux. It is correct to point out that in the ideal there should > not be a > > > > > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all know, > the > > > > > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see the > world in > > > > > the same way. Don't you just hate it when that happens. Smile. > > > > > > > > > > I guess my view is that if word users want to communicate > with > > > > > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the realities > of > > > > > other computer platforms. Consumer choice still has it's place! > > > > > > > > > > -- Charlie Crawford. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote: > > > > > >Amen! to that Janina! > > > > > > > > > > > >Amanda > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net> > > > > > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > > > > > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM > > > > > >Subject: Re: anti-word > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and > editing, > > > > > >I'm > > > > > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in > Word > > > > > >format > > > > > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such. Some of > this whole > > > > > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads > Word. I > > > > > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to > Microsoft. I > > > > > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, > non-consensus, file > > > > > > > format as some kind of standard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > > > >Speakup mailing list > > > > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Janina Sajka, Director > > > Technology Research and Development > > > Governmental Relations Group > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > > > http://www.openebook.org > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Speakup mailing list > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Gregory Nowak @ ` Charles Hallenbeck ` anti-word Amanda Lee ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Charles Hallenbeck @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup I do not understand why you do not just accept what he is ready to send you, since you can easily do the conversion yourself. Why expect him to do it? On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > I think that if I told him to just save it as a text file, he would've been even more confused, unless he was right in front of his monitor able to pull up the save as dialogue right there which he was not at the time. > Besides, I don't care how they save it, as long as I get the format I asked for. > Greg > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 01:52:47PM -0500, Amanda Lee wrote: > > You are correct. However, all that you needed to do was to point out to > > your professor that he could easily use "Save As" from the pulldown menu and > > save his documents for mailing to you in text. I frequenlty do this when I > > receive Word documents as I will today for two courses I'm taking this week > > on Networks and Advanced TCP/IP. These I will download to my notetaker as > > they are smaller and there is a book reader function in my notetaker and so > > I can read these files while I'm in the taxi going to work or whatever. > > > > I agree that the Universities are at the root of much of this but ... they > > really don't need to know nor do anything other than press the right buttons > > and click on the desired choice. > > > > Amanda Lee > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 1:24 PM > > Subject: Re: anti-word > > > > > > > Yes, I do. However, you seem to be missing the point I'm trying to get > > across here. So, let me give you an example. > > > A professor of mine was handing out something that he had written for the > > class. Since I knew that he had written it by himself recently, I asked if > > he could e-mail me a plain text file instead, so I wouldn't need to mess > > with scannning the handout. His answer to me was: "you mean a word > > document?" I said "no, I mean a .txt file, a plain ASCII text file." He was > > still confused, so I said, "like the files that you create with notepad." He > > said "oh, ok." > > > > > > My point is as it was before. If all they know about their computer is how > > to turn it on and off, then how are they supposed to know about other > > platforms if they don't even know for sure what a text file? > > > > > > If some of you on this list want to blame the ignorant professor, then > > maybe you should blame universities, employers, and the way we learn and > > work today. Universities and employers are the ones today who tell you they > > want your papers in 12 point font, and formatted this way or that. Now, how > > are we supposed to achieve that in something like notepad/emacs/pico? And if > > someone else is wondering how the hell this guy became a professor without > > knowing crap about what kinds of files he could produce on his computer, > > then that is a new question to examine the answer to. > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:29:50PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote: > > > > Gregory, I keep telling you this answer, but there's some part of it > > that > > > > you seem to still miss. What part is that? > > > > > > > > They don't need to know a damm thing to retrieve either a text doc (no > > > > formatting), or an html doc (much formatting). > > > > > > > > They need know nothing special in order to do that. Do you understand > > this > > > > yet? > > > > > > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > > > > > > > And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if all > > they know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off? > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote: > > > > > > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers, > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging on > > planet > > > > > > Linux. It is correct to point out that in the ideal there should > > not be a > > > > > > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all know, > > the > > > > > > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see the > > world in > > > > > > the same way. Don't you just hate it when that happens. Smile. > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess my view is that if word users want to communicate > > with > > > > > > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the realities > > of > > > > > > other computer platforms. Consumer choice still has it's place! > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Charlie Crawford. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote: > > > > > > >Amen! to that Janina! > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Amanda > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net> > > > > > > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > > > > > > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM > > > > > > >Subject: Re: anti-word > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and > > editing, > > > > > > >I'm > > > > > > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in > > Word > > > > > > >format > > > > > > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such. Some of > > this whole > > > > > > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads > > Word. I > > > > > > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to > > Microsoft. I > > > > > > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, > > non-consensus, file > > > > > > > > format as some kind of standard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > > > > >Speakup mailing list > > > > > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Janina Sajka, Director > > > > Technology Research and Development > > > > Governmental Relations Group > > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > > > > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > > > > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG > > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > > > > http://www.openebook.org > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Speakup mailing list > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > *<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>* Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh The Moon is New ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Charles Hallenbeck @ ` Amanda Lee ` anti-word Charles Hallenbeck ` anti-word Gregory Nowak ` anti-word Geoff Shang 2 siblings, 1 reply; 108+ messages in thread From: Amanda Lee @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup I'm certain that most of us suck it up and accept it but given the opportunity to enlighten someone, I do and many times they find other uses as well for themselves. So it's not always about acocmodating our individual needs as persons who are blind. Amanda Lee ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Hallenbeck" <chuckh@mhonline.net> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 2:59 PM Subject: Re: anti-word > I do not understand why you do not just accept what he is ready > to send you, since you can easily do the conversion yourself. Why > expect him to do it? > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > I think that if I told him to just save it as a text file, he would've been even more confused, unless he was right in front of his monitor able to pull up the save as dialogue right there which he was not at the time. > > Besides, I don't care how they save it, as long as I get the format I asked for. > > Greg > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 01:52:47PM -0500, Amanda Lee wrote: > > > You are correct. However, all that you needed to do was to point out to > > > your professor that he could easily use "Save As" from the pulldown menu and > > > save his documents for mailing to you in text. I frequenlty do this when I > > > receive Word documents as I will today for two courses I'm taking this week > > > on Networks and Advanced TCP/IP. These I will download to my notetaker as > > > they are smaller and there is a book reader function in my notetaker and so > > > I can read these files while I'm in the taxi going to work or whatever. > > > > > > I agree that the Universities are at the root of much of this but ... they > > > really don't need to know nor do anything other than press the right buttons > > > and click on the desired choice. > > > > > > Amanda Lee > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu> > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > > > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 1:24 PM > > > Subject: Re: anti-word > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I do. However, you seem to be missing the point I'm trying to get > > > across here. So, let me give you an example. > > > > A professor of mine was handing out something that he had written for the > > > class. Since I knew that he had written it by himself recently, I asked if > > > he could e-mail me a plain text file instead, so I wouldn't need to mess > > > with scannning the handout. His answer to me was: "you mean a word > > > document?" I said "no, I mean a .txt file, a plain ASCII text file." He was > > > still confused, so I said, "like the files that you create with notepad." He > > > said "oh, ok." > > > > > > > > My point is as it was before. If all they know about their computer is how > > > to turn it on and off, then how are they supposed to know about other > > > platforms if they don't even know for sure what a text file? > > > > > > > > If some of you on this list want to blame the ignorant professor, then > > > maybe you should blame universities, employers, and the way we learn and > > > work today. Universities and employers are the ones today who tell you they > > > want your papers in 12 point font, and formatted this way or that. Now, how > > > are we supposed to achieve that in something like notepad/emacs/pico? And if > > > someone else is wondering how the hell this guy became a professor without > > > knowing crap about what kinds of files he could produce on his computer, > > > then that is a new question to examine the answer to. > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:29:50PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote: > > > > > Gregory, I keep telling you this answer, but there's some part of it > > > that > > > > > you seem to still miss. What part is that? > > > > > > > > > > They don't need to know a damm thing to retrieve either a text doc (no > > > > > formatting), or an html doc (much formatting). > > > > > > > > > > They need know nothing special in order to do that. Do you understand > > > this > > > > > yet? > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if all > > > they know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off? > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote: > > > > > > > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging on > > > planet > > > > > > > Linux. It is correct to point out that in the ideal there should > > > not be a > > > > > > > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all know, > > > the > > > > > > > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see the > > > world in > > > > > > > the same way. Don't you just hate it when that happens. Smile. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess my view is that if word users want to communicate > > > with > > > > > > > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the realities > > > of > > > > > > > other computer platforms. Consumer choice still has it's place! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Charlie Crawford. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote: > > > > > > > >Amen! to that Janina! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Amanda > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net> > > > > > > > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > > > > > > > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: anti-word > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and > > > editing, > > > > > > > >I'm > > > > > > > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in > > > Word > > > > > > > >format > > > > > > > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such. Some of > > > this whole > > > > > > > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads > > > Word. I > > > > > > > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to > > > Microsoft. I > > > > > > > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, > > > non-consensus, file > > > > > > > > > format as some kind of standard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > > > > > >Speakup mailing list > > > > > > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > Janina Sajka, Director > > > > > Technology Research and Development > > > > > Governmental Relations Group > > > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > > > > > > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > > > > > > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG > > > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > > > > > http://www.openebook.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Speakup mailing list > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > *<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>* > Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh > The Moon is New > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Amanda Lee @ ` Charles Hallenbeck ` anti-word Amanda Lee ` anti-word Gregory Nowak 0 siblings, 2 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Charles Hallenbeck @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Hmmmm - Seems like you are saying you often have two goals: (1) get your own work done, and (2) enlighten somebody and change the world. In that case I guess you should ask your professors etcetera to do those conversions. I guess I would defer the crusading for another time and concentrate on goal #1, but that is only my own not so humble opinion. Seems to me that enlightenment works best when the enlightennee reaches out for it. For instance, if the professor etcetera should ask about the process of accessing his MS word goodies, then of course I would jump on the opportunity to outline what I must do to decode the damn thing to make it readable. If he then offers to save me the trouble next time, again I would jump at the offer and encourage him. But for me, I guess if I can get the conversion done with no fuss or muss, I would just do it and get on with life. Just an old man's two cents worth. (and also a blind professor's). Chuck On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote: > I'm certain that most of us suck it up and accept it but given the > opportunity to enlighten someone, I do and many times they find other uses > as well for themselves. So it's not always about acocmodating our > individual needs as persons who are blind. > > Amanda Lee > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Charles Hallenbeck" <chuckh@mhonline.net> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 2:59 PM > Subject: Re: anti-word > > > > I do not understand why you do not just accept what he is ready > > to send you, since you can easily do the conversion yourself. Why > > expect him to do it? > > > > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > > > I think that if I told him to just save it as a text file, he would've > been even more confused, unless he was right in front of his monitor able to > pull up the save as dialogue right there which he was not at the time. > > > Besides, I don't care how they save it, as long as I get the format I > asked for. > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 01:52:47PM -0500, Amanda Lee wrote: > > > > You are correct. However, all that you needed to do was to point out > to > > > > your professor that he could easily use "Save As" from the pulldown > menu and > > > > save his documents for mailing to you in text. I frequenlty do this > when I > > > > receive Word documents as I will today for two courses I'm taking this > week > > > > on Networks and Advanced TCP/IP. These I will download to my > notetaker as > > > > they are smaller and there is a book reader function in my notetaker > and so > > > > I can read these files while I'm in the taxi going to work or > whatever. > > > > > > > > I agree that the Universities are at the root of much of this but ... > they > > > > really don't need to know nor do anything other than press the right > buttons > > > > and click on the desired choice. > > > > > > > > Amanda Lee > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu> > > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > > > > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 1:24 PM > > > > Subject: Re: anti-word > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I do. However, you seem to be missing the point I'm trying to > get > > > > across here. So, let me give you an example. > > > > > A professor of mine was handing out something that he had written > for the > > > > class. Since I knew that he had written it by himself recently, I > asked if > > > > he could e-mail me a plain text file instead, so I wouldn't need to > mess > > > > with scannning the handout. His answer to me was: "you mean a word > > > > document?" I said "no, I mean a .txt file, a plain ASCII text file." > He was > > > > still confused, so I said, "like the files that you create with > notepad." He > > > > said "oh, ok." > > > > > > > > > > My point is as it was before. If all they know about their computer > is how > > > > to turn it on and off, then how are they supposed to know about other > > > > platforms if they don't even know for sure what a text file? > > > > > > > > > > If some of you on this list want to blame the ignorant professor, > then > > > > maybe you should blame universities, employers, and the way we learn > and > > > > work today. Universities and employers are the ones today who tell you > they > > > > want your papers in 12 point font, and formatted this way or that. > Now, how > > > > are we supposed to achieve that in something like notepad/emacs/pico? > And if > > > > someone else is wondering how the hell this guy became a professor > without > > > > knowing crap about what kinds of files he could produce on his > computer, > > > > then that is a new question to examine the answer to. > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:29:50PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote: > > > > > > Gregory, I keep telling you this answer, but there's some part of > it > > > > that > > > > > > you seem to still miss. What part is that? > > > > > > > > > > > > They don't need to know a damm thing to retrieve either a text doc > (no > > > > > > formatting), or an html doc (much formatting). > > > > > > > > > > > > They need know nothing special in order to do that. Do you > understand > > > > this > > > > > > yet? > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if > all > > > > they know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off? > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging > on > > > > planet > > > > > > > > Linux. It is correct to point out that in the ideal there > should > > > > not be a > > > > > > > > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all > know, > > > > the > > > > > > > > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see > the > > > > world in > > > > > > > > the same way. Don't you just hate it when that happens. > Smile. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess my view is that if word users want to > communicate > > > > with > > > > > > > > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the > realities > > > > of > > > > > > > > other computer platforms. Consumer choice still has it's > place! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Charlie Crawford. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote: > > > > > > > > >Amen! to that Janina! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Amanda > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net> > > > > > > > > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > > > > > > > > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM > > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: anti-word > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input > and > > > > editing, > > > > > > > > >I'm > > > > > > > > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come > back in > > > > Word > > > > > > > > >format > > > > > > > > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such. > Some of > > > > this whole > > > > > > > > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and > reads > > > > Word. I > > > > > > > > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to > > > > Microsoft. I > > > > > > > > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, > > > > non-consensus, file > > > > > > > > > > format as some kind of standard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > >Speakup mailing list > > > > > > > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > Janina Sajka, Director > > > > > > Technology Research and Development > > > > > > Governmental Relations Group > > > > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > > > > > > > > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > > > > > > > > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG > > > > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > > > > > > http://www.openebook.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Speakup mailing list > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > *<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>* > > Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh > > The Moon is New > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > *<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>* Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh The Moon is New ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Charles Hallenbeck @ ` Amanda Lee ` anti-word Gregory Nowak 1 sibling, 0 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Amanda Lee @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup You answered your own question here. If there is a time-sensative situation or for some reason an email provider is restrictive about file sizes and I've encountered this more than once as thankfully I have a different provider/Shellworld other than the lousy pittle that comes with the Cable/Broadband service, I couldn't have emailed a bunch of .ppt documents and would have had to resort to breaking down the messages containing the PowerPoint and Word documents for these courses into multiple messages. This is time-consuming to delete off attachments and to be certain to spread them to other messages such that I didn't forget an attachment in the process. If I didn't have any other choice but to be confined to the restrictions of my provider and the source for the soft copy documents waited until the last minute to send them, I would have most definitely requested text files because I wouldn't have had enough time to do the conversions along with ordinary work-related tasks and to mail them to myself here at home for studying during the evening. So it goes without saying that to address the situation on an individual basis is proactive. Some blind students only have a notetaker as their primary tool for access and many notetakers have limited storage capacity Therefore, this blind individual couldn't just accept a Word document as is. I believe that the Educational sector does need to be more flexible because after all, this is indeed a "Reasonable Accomodation" and it costs nothing but a few keystrokes on the part of the document source. Amanda Lee ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Hallenbeck" <chuckh@mhonline.net> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 3:24 PM Subject: Re: anti-word > Hmmmm - Seems like you are saying you often have two goals: (1) > get your own work done, and (2) enlighten somebody and change the > world. In that case I guess you should ask your professors > etcetera to do those conversions. I guess I would defer the > crusading for another time and concentrate on goal #1, but that > is only my own not so humble opinion. > > Seems to me that enlightenment works best when the enlightennee > reaches out for it. For instance, if the professor etcetera > should ask about the process of accessing his MS word goodies, > then of course I would jump on the opportunity to outline what I > must do to decode the damn thing to make it readable. If he then > offers to save me the trouble next time, again I would jump at > the offer and encourage him. But for me, I guess if I can get the > conversion done with no fuss or muss, I would just do it and get > on with life. > > Just an old man's two cents worth. (and also a blind > professor's). > > Chuck > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote: > > > I'm certain that most of us suck it up and accept it but given the > > opportunity to enlighten someone, I do and many times they find other uses > > as well for themselves. So it's not always about acocmodating our > > individual needs as persons who are blind. > > > > Amanda Lee > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Charles Hallenbeck" <chuckh@mhonline.net> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 2:59 PM > > Subject: Re: anti-word > > > > > > > I do not understand why you do not just accept what he is ready > > > to send you, since you can easily do the conversion yourself. Why > > > expect him to do it? > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > > > > > I think that if I told him to just save it as a text file, he would've > > been even more confused, unless he was right in front of his monitor able to > > pull up the save as dialogue right there which he was not at the time. > > > > Besides, I don't care how they save it, as long as I get the format I > > asked for. > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 01:52:47PM -0500, Amanda Lee wrote: > > > > > You are correct. However, all that you needed to do was to point out > > to > > > > > your professor that he could easily use "Save As" from the pulldown > > menu and > > > > > save his documents for mailing to you in text. I frequenlty do this > > when I > > > > > receive Word documents as I will today for two courses I'm taking this > > week > > > > > on Networks and Advanced TCP/IP. These I will download to my > > notetaker as > > > > > they are smaller and there is a book reader function in my notetaker > > and so > > > > > I can read these files while I'm in the taxi going to work or > > whatever. > > > > > > > > > > I agree that the Universities are at the root of much of this but ... > > they > > > > > really don't need to know nor do anything other than press the right > > buttons > > > > > and click on the desired choice. > > > > > > > > > > Amanda Lee > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu> > > > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > > > > > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 1:24 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: anti-word > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I do. However, you seem to be missing the point I'm trying to > > get > > > > > across here. So, let me give you an example. > > > > > > A professor of mine was handing out something that he had written > > for the > > > > > class. Since I knew that he had written it by himself recently, I > > asked if > > > > > he could e-mail me a plain text file instead, so I wouldn't need to > > mess > > > > > with scannning the handout. His answer to me was: "you mean a word > > > > > document?" I said "no, I mean a .txt file, a plain ASCII text file." > > He was > > > > > still confused, so I said, "like the files that you create with > > notepad." He > > > > > said "oh, ok." > > > > > > > > > > > > My point is as it was before. If all they know about their computer > > is how > > > > > to turn it on and off, then how are they supposed to know about other > > > > > platforms if they don't even know for sure what a text file? > > > > > > > > > > > > If some of you on this list want to blame the ignorant professor, > > then > > > > > maybe you should blame universities, employers, and the way we learn > > and > > > > > work today. Universities and employers are the ones today who tell you > > they > > > > > want your papers in 12 point font, and formatted this way or that. > > Now, how > > > > > are we supposed to achieve that in something like notepad/emacs/pico? > > And if > > > > > someone else is wondering how the hell this guy became a professor > > without > > > > > knowing crap about what kinds of files he could produce on his > > computer, > > > > > then that is a new question to examine the answer to. > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:29:50PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote: > > > > > > > Gregory, I keep telling you this answer, but there's some part of > > it > > > > > that > > > > > > > you seem to still miss. What part is that? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They don't need to know a damm thing to retrieve either a text doc > > (no > > > > > > > formatting), or an html doc (much formatting). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They need know nothing special in order to do that. Do you > > understand > > > > > this > > > > > > > yet? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if > > all > > > > > they know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off? > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging > > on > > > > > planet > > > > > > > > > Linux. It is correct to point out that in the ideal there > > should > > > > > not be a > > > > > > > > > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all > > know, > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see > > the > > > > > world in > > > > > > > > > the same way. Don't you just hate it when that happens. > > Smile. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess my view is that if word users want to > > communicate > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the > > realities > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > other computer platforms. Consumer choice still has it's > > place! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Charlie Crawford. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote: > > > > > > > > > >Amen! to that Janina! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Amanda > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net> > > > > > > > > > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > > > > > > > > > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM > > > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: anti-word > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input > > and > > > > > editing, > > > > > > > > > >I'm > > > > > > > > > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come > > back in > > > > > Word > > > > > > > > > >format > > > > > > > > > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such. > > Some of > > > > > this whole > > > > > > > > > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and > > reads > > > > > Word. I > > > > > > > > > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to > > > > > Microsoft. I > > > > > > > > > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, > > > > > non-consensus, file > > > > > > > > > > > format as some kind of standard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > >Speakup mailing list > > > > > > > > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Janina Sajka, Director > > > > > > > Technology Research and Development > > > > > > > Governmental Relations Group > > > > > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG > > > > > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > > > > > > > http://www.openebook.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > *<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>* > > > Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh > > > The Moon is New > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Speakup mailing list > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > *<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>* > Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh > The Moon is New > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Charles Hallenbeck ` anti-word Amanda Lee @ ` Gregory Nowak 1 sibling, 0 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Gregory Nowak @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Yes, thoes goals are just it, I try to do them all at once together. I am not a submissive individual by nature. Also, I know this is going in a circle, but how is the unenlightened person supposed to reach out for enlightenment if that person doesn't know there is something enlightening to reach out for? It is also worth noting that you, Janina, Amanda Kirk W. and I along with everyone else are entitled to our ownopinions which this discussion is not meant to change, only to objectively focus on what is behind the opinion and why and if it makes sense. Greg On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 03:24:23PM -0500, Charles Hallenbeck wrote: > Hmmmm - Seems like you are saying you often have two goals: (1) > get your own work done, and (2) enlighten somebody and change the > world. In that case I guess you should ask your professors > etcetera to do those conversions. I guess I would defer the > crusading for another time and concentrate on goal #1, but that > is only my own not so humble opinion. > > Seems to me that enlightenment works best when the enlightennee > reaches out for it. For instance, if the professor etcetera > should ask about the process of accessing his MS word goodies, > then of course I would jump on the opportunity to outline what I > must do to decode the damn thing to make it readable. If he then > offers to save me the trouble next time, again I would jump at > the offer and encourage him. But for me, I guess if I can get the > conversion done with no fuss or muss, I would just do it and get > on with life. > > Just an old man's two cents worth. (and also a blind > professor's). > > Chuck > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote: > > > I'm certain that most of us suck it up and accept it but given the > > opportunity to enlighten someone, I do and many times they find other uses > > as well for themselves. So it's not always about acocmodating our > > individual needs as persons who are blind. > > > > Amanda Lee > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Charles Hallenbeck" <chuckh@mhonline.net> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 2:59 PM > > Subject: Re: anti-word > > > > > > > I do not understand why you do not just accept what he is ready > > > to send you, since you can easily do the conversion yourself. Why > > > expect him to do it? > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > > > > > I think that if I told him to just save it as a text file, he would've > > been even more confused, unless he was right in front of his monitor able to > > pull up the save as dialogue right there which he was not at the time. > > > > Besides, I don't care how they save it, as long as I get the format I > > asked for. > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 01:52:47PM -0500, Amanda Lee wrote: > > > > > You are correct. However, all that you needed to do was to point out > > to > > > > > your professor that he could easily use "Save As" from the pulldown > > menu and > > > > > save his documents for mailing to you in text. I frequenlty do this > > when I > > > > > receive Word documents as I will today for two courses I'm taking this > > week > > > > > on Networks and Advanced TCP/IP. These I will download to my > > notetaker as > > > > > they are smaller and there is a book reader function in my notetaker > > and so > > > > > I can read these files while I'm in the taxi going to work or > > whatever. > > > > > > > > > > I agree that the Universities are at the root of much of this but ... > > they > > > > > really don't need to know nor do anything other than press the right > > buttons > > > > > and click on the desired choice. > > > > > > > > > > Amanda Lee > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu> > > > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > > > > > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 1:24 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: anti-word > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I do. However, you seem to be missing the point I'm trying to > > get > > > > > across here. So, let me give you an example. > > > > > > A professor of mine was handing out something that he had written > > for the > > > > > class. Since I knew that he had written it by himself recently, I > > asked if > > > > > he could e-mail me a plain text file instead, so I wouldn't need to > > mess > > > > > with scannning the handout. His answer to me was: "you mean a word > > > > > document?" I said "no, I mean a .txt file, a plain ASCII text file." > > He was > > > > > still confused, so I said, "like the files that you create with > > notepad." He > > > > > said "oh, ok." > > > > > > > > > > > > My point is as it was before. If all they know about their computer > > is how > > > > > to turn it on and off, then how are they supposed to know about other > > > > > platforms if they don't even know for sure what a text file? > > > > > > > > > > > > If some of you on this list want to blame the ignorant professor, > > then > > > > > maybe you should blame universities, employers, and the way we learn > > and > > > > > work today. Universities and employers are the ones today who tell you > > they > > > > > want your papers in 12 point font, and formatted this way or that. > > Now, how > > > > > are we supposed to achieve that in something like notepad/emacs/pico? > > And if > > > > > someone else is wondering how the hell this guy became a professor > > without > > > > > knowing crap about what kinds of files he could produce on his > > computer, > > > > > then that is a new question to examine the answer to. > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:29:50PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote: > > > > > > > Gregory, I keep telling you this answer, but there's some part of > > it > > > > > that > > > > > > > you seem to still miss. What part is that? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They don't need to know a damm thing to retrieve either a text doc > > (no > > > > > > > formatting), or an html doc (much formatting). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They need know nothing special in order to do that. Do you > > understand > > > > > this > > > > > > > yet? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if > > all > > > > > they know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off? > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging > > on > > > > > planet > > > > > > > > > Linux. It is correct to point out that in the ideal there > > should > > > > > not be a > > > > > > > > > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all > > know, > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see > > the > > > > > world in > > > > > > > > > the same way. Don't you just hate it when that happens. > > Smile. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess my view is that if word users want to > > communicate > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the > > realities > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > other computer platforms. Consumer choice still has it's > > place! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Charlie Crawford. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote: > > > > > > > > > >Amen! to that Janina! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Amanda > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net> > > > > > > > > > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > > > > > > > > > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM > > > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: anti-word > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input > > and > > > > > editing, > > > > > > > > > >I'm > > > > > > > > > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come > > back in > > > > > Word > > > > > > > > > >format > > > > > > > > > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such. > > Some of > > > > > this whole > > > > > > > > > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and > > reads > > > > > Word. I > > > > > > > > > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to > > > > > Microsoft. I > > > > > > > > > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, > > > > > non-consensus, file > > > > > > > > > > > format as some kind of standard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > >Speakup mailing list > > > > > > > > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Janina Sajka, Director > > > > > > > Technology Research and Development > > > > > > > Governmental Relations Group > > > > > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG > > > > > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > > > > > > > http://www.openebook.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > *<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>* > > > Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh > > > The Moon is New > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Speakup mailing list > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > *<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>* > Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh > The Moon is New > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Charles Hallenbeck ` anti-word Amanda Lee @ ` Gregory Nowak ` anti-word Geoff Shang 2 siblings, 0 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Gregory Nowak @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Because as I've stated in an earlier post, doing so would mean that I'm encouraging him to accept the ms word format by defacto. Greg On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 02:59:10PM -0500, Charles Hallenbeck wrote: > I do not understand why you do not just accept what he is ready > to send you, since you can easily do the conversion yourself. Why > expect him to do it? > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > I think that if I told him to just save it as a text file, he would've been even more confused, unless he was right in front of his monitor able to pull up the save as dialogue right there which he was not at the time. > > Besides, I don't care how they save it, as long as I get the format I asked for. > > Greg > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 01:52:47PM -0500, Amanda Lee wrote: > > > You are correct. However, all that you needed to do was to point out to > > > your professor that he could easily use "Save As" from the pulldown menu and > > > save his documents for mailing to you in text. I frequenlty do this when I > > > receive Word documents as I will today for two courses I'm taking this week > > > on Networks and Advanced TCP/IP. These I will download to my notetaker as > > > they are smaller and there is a book reader function in my notetaker and so > > > I can read these files while I'm in the taxi going to work or whatever. > > > > > > I agree that the Universities are at the root of much of this but ... they > > > really don't need to know nor do anything other than press the right buttons > > > and click on the desired choice. > > > > > > Amanda Lee > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu> > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > > > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 1:24 PM > > > Subject: Re: anti-word > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I do. However, you seem to be missing the point I'm trying to get > > > across here. So, let me give you an example. > > > > A professor of mine was handing out something that he had written for the > > > class. Since I knew that he had written it by himself recently, I asked if > > > he could e-mail me a plain text file instead, so I wouldn't need to mess > > > with scannning the handout. His answer to me was: "you mean a word > > > document?" I said "no, I mean a .txt file, a plain ASCII text file." He was > > > still confused, so I said, "like the files that you create with notepad." He > > > said "oh, ok." > > > > > > > > My point is as it was before. If all they know about their computer is how > > > to turn it on and off, then how are they supposed to know about other > > > platforms if they don't even know for sure what a text file? > > > > > > > > If some of you on this list want to blame the ignorant professor, then > > > maybe you should blame universities, employers, and the way we learn and > > > work today. Universities and employers are the ones today who tell you they > > > want your papers in 12 point font, and formatted this way or that. Now, how > > > are we supposed to achieve that in something like notepad/emacs/pico? And if > > > someone else is wondering how the hell this guy became a professor without > > > knowing crap about what kinds of files he could produce on his computer, > > > then that is a new question to examine the answer to. > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:29:50PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote: > > > > > Gregory, I keep telling you this answer, but there's some part of it > > > that > > > > > you seem to still miss. What part is that? > > > > > > > > > > They don't need to know a damm thing to retrieve either a text doc (no > > > > > formatting), or an html doc (much formatting). > > > > > > > > > > They need know nothing special in order to do that. Do you understand > > > this > > > > > yet? > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if all > > > they know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off? > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote: > > > > > > > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging on > > > planet > > > > > > > Linux. It is correct to point out that in the ideal there should > > > not be a > > > > > > > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all know, > > > the > > > > > > > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see the > > > world in > > > > > > > the same way. Don't you just hate it when that happens. Smile. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess my view is that if word users want to communicate > > > with > > > > > > > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the realities > > > of > > > > > > > other computer platforms. Consumer choice still has it's place! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Charlie Crawford. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote: > > > > > > > >Amen! to that Janina! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Amanda > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net> > > > > > > > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > > > > > > > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: anti-word > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and > > > editing, > > > > > > > >I'm > > > > > > > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in > > > Word > > > > > > > >format > > > > > > > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such. Some of > > > this whole > > > > > > > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads > > > Word. I > > > > > > > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to > > > Microsoft. I > > > > > > > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, > > > non-consensus, file > > > > > > > > > format as some kind of standard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > > > > > >Speakup mailing list > > > > > > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > Janina Sajka, Director > > > > > Technology Research and Development > > > > > Governmental Relations Group > > > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > > > > > > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > > > > > > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG > > > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > > > > > http://www.openebook.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Speakup mailing list > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > *<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>* > Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh > The Moon is New > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Charles Hallenbeck ` anti-word Amanda Lee ` anti-word Gregory Nowak @ ` Geoff Shang 2 siblings, 0 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Geoff Shang @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Charles Hallenbeck wrote: > I do not understand why you do not just accept what he is ready > to send you, since you can easily do the conversion yourself. Why > expect him to do it? OK, now I've read the whole thread, time for my 2C worth on it. Yes, the wv lib will give us access to word docs, but I've not found it 100% successful. For example, I've found files that end in a host of question marks instead of what should have been there. Worse, some files have said something like: This document was saved 8 times using fastsave. Some information was lost. And that's all it can tell me. I have to try and do a 'strings' on it, and man that ain't pretty. so saying we can read them isn't always true. I've only had this with a minority of docs though. As far as preparing well formatted texts go, it can be done under linux. I just created an RTF file from a text file for the first time tonight. To save anyone the headache I went through to find out how to do it, the command is: enscript -W rtf -p outputfile.rtf inputfile.txt Actually, enscript looks like it's pretty powerful, but is extremely lacking in documentation that covers all its features (like that one). another tool that looks like it might be useful is the simple document parser sdf. Apparently, you learn a simple mark-up language and it'll do the rest and convert it into lots of formats. I've not used it, but I intend to look at it. and if you want to create fully produced works of literary art, you can't go past latex. Geoff. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Gregory Nowak ` anti-word Amanda Lee @ ` Janina Sajka ` anti-word Gregory Nowak ` anti-word Steve Holmes ` anti-word Charles Crawford 3 siblings, 1 reply; 108+ messages in thread From: Janina Sajka @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Greg, I run into this all the time. Since I'm the minority--the non-word user--I take it upon myself to translate the contents into something I can read, and usually don't bother the sendor about it unless they send me something that just doesn't translate well. That's my usual approach. If, the document in question is meant for publication as opposed to something that passes between two or three people, then it's a very different story. Then they don't get to be ignorant in my view. But, as I said, that's another story. I didn't think we were talking about publication. On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > Yes, I do. However, you seem to be missing the point I'm trying to get across here. So, let me give you an example. > A professor of mine was handing out something that he had written for the class. Since I knew that he had written it by himself recently, I asked if he could e-mail me a plain text file instead, so I wouldn't need to mess with scannning the handout. His answer to me was: "you mean a word document?" I said "no, I mean a .txt file, a plain ASCII text file." He was still confused, so I said, "like the files that you create with notepad." He said "oh, ok." > > My point is as it was before. If all they know about their computer is how to turn it on and off, then how are they supposed to know about other platforms if they don't even know for sure what a text file? > > If some of you on this list want to blame the ignorant professor, then maybe you should blame universities, employers, and the way we learn and work today. Universities and employers are the ones today who tell you they want your papers in 12 point font, and formatted this way or that. Now, how are we supposed to achieve that in something like notepad/emacs/pico? And if someone else is wondering how the hell this guy became a professor without knowing crap about what kinds of files he could produce on his computer, then that is a new question to examine the answer to. > Greg > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:29:50PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote: > > Gregory, I keep telling you this answer, but there's some part of it that > > you seem to still miss. What part is that? > > > > They don't need to know a damm thing to retrieve either a text doc (no > > formatting), or an html doc (much formatting). > > > > They need know nothing special in order to do that. Do you understand this > > yet? > > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > > > And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if all they know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off? > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote: > > > > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers, > > > > > > > > Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging on planet > > > > Linux. It is correct to point out that in the ideal there should not be a > > > > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all know, the > > > > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see the world in > > > > the same way. Don't you just hate it when that happens. Smile. > > > > > > > > I guess my view is that if word users want to communicate with > > > > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the realities of > > > > other computer platforms. Consumer choice still has it's place! > > > > > > > > -- Charlie Crawford. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote: > > > > >Amen! to that Janina! > > > > > > > > > >Amanda > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net> > > > > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > > > > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM > > > > >Subject: Re: anti-word > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing, > > > > >I'm > > > > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word > > > > >format > > > > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such. Some of this whole > > > > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I > > > > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I > > > > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file > > > > > > format as some kind of standard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > > >Speakup mailing list > > > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Speakup mailing list > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > -- > > > > Janina Sajka, Director > > Technology Research and Development > > Governmental Relations Group > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > > http://www.openebook.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > -- Janina Sajka, Director Technology Research and Development Governmental Relations Group American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 Chair, Accessibility SIG Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) http://www.openebook.org ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Janina Sajka @ ` Gregory Nowak ` anti-word Janina Sajka ` anti-word Amanda Lee 0 siblings, 2 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Gregory Nowak @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Janina, First of all, we are not talking about publication (or at least I'm not in the sense of the word). Also, by taking upon your self the conversion of word documents into plain text, I feel that you are not only encouraging but also supporting the very thing you and the rest of us disscussing here are against. If you want to teach a bird to find its own food, you won't feed it continually, you will let it out the window or whatever so that it can learn. Greg On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 02:47:47PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote: > Greg, I run into this all the time. Since I'm the minority--the non-word > user--I take it upon myself to translate the contents into something I can > read, and usually don't bother the sendor about it unless they send me > something that just doesn't translate well. That's my usual approach. > > If, the document in question is meant for publication as opposed to > something that passes between two or three people, then it's a very > different story. Then they don't get to be ignorant in my view. But, as I > said, that's another story. I didn't think we were talking about > publication. > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > Yes, I do. However, you seem to be missing the point I'm trying to get across here. So, let me give you an example. > > A professor of mine was handing out something that he had written for the class. Since I knew that he had written it by himself recently, I asked if he could e-mail me a plain text file instead, so I wouldn't need to mess with scannning the handout. His answer to me was: "you mean a word document?" I said "no, I mean a .txt file, a plain ASCII text file." He was still confused, so I said, "like the files that you create with notepad." He said "oh, ok." > > > > My point is as it was before. If all they know about their computer is how to turn it on and off, then how are they supposed to know about other platforms if they don't even know for sure what a text file? > > > > If some of you on this list want to blame the ignorant professor, then maybe you should blame universities, employers, and the way we learn and work today. Universities and employers are the ones today who tell you they want your papers in 12 point font, and formatted this way or that. Now, how are we supposed to achieve that in something like notepad/emacs/pico? And if someone else is wondering how the hell this guy became a professor without knowing crap about what kinds of files he could produce on his computer, then that is a new question to examine the answer to. > > Greg > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:29:50PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote: > > > Gregory, I keep telling you this answer, but there's some part of it that > > > you seem to still miss. What part is that? > > > > > > They don't need to know a damm thing to retrieve either a text doc (no > > > formatting), or an html doc (much formatting). > > > > > > They need know nothing special in order to do that. Do you understand this > > > yet? > > > > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > > > > > And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if all they know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off? > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote: > > > > > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers, > > > > > > > > > > Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging on planet > > > > > Linux. It is correct to point out that in the ideal there should not be a > > > > > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all know, the > > > > > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see the world in > > > > > the same way. Don't you just hate it when that happens. Smile. > > > > > > > > > > I guess my view is that if word users want to communicate with > > > > > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the realities of > > > > > other computer platforms. Consumer choice still has it's place! > > > > > > > > > > -- Charlie Crawford. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote: > > > > > >Amen! to that Janina! > > > > > > > > > > > >Amanda > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net> > > > > > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > > > > > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM > > > > > >Subject: Re: anti-word > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing, > > > > > >I'm > > > > > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word > > > > > >format > > > > > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such. Some of this whole > > > > > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I > > > > > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I > > > > > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file > > > > > > > format as some kind of standard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > > > >Speakup mailing list > > > > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Janina Sajka, Director > > > Technology Research and Development > > > Governmental Relations Group > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > > > http://www.openebook.org > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Speakup mailing list > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > -- > > Janina Sajka, Director > Technology Research and Development > Governmental Relations Group > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > Chair, Accessibility SIG > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > http://www.openebook.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Gregory Nowak @ ` Janina Sajka ` anti-word Gregory Nowak ` anti-word Amanda Lee 1 sibling, 1 reply; 108+ messages in thread From: Janina Sajka @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Ah, OK, I think I understand where you're coming from on this a bit better now. It took me a long time in life to come around to the understanding that I couldn't possibly fight all battles. If for no other reason than that it is very time consuming to do so. So, I try to choose my battles in such a way as to leverage my time for greater effect in the campaign. A pro pos this discussion, to me this means that I can't educate each and every person I interact with one at a time. I think you'd agree with me that I have more impact for the good by focusing on things like the NISO/DAISY digital talking book standard, and on getting the textbook publishing industry to agree to use it meeting their obligations to make textbooks accessible. Would you agree with this prioritization? If then it follows that I can't stop and deal with every comer, I must be ready to do some of my own conversions. On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > Janina, > First of all, we are not talking about publication (or at least I'm not in the sense of the word). Also, by taking upon your self the conversion of word documents into plain text, I feel that you are not only encouraging but also supporting the very thing you and the rest of us disscussing here are against. > If you want to teach a bird to find its own food, you won't feed it continually, you will let it out the window or whatever so that it can learn. > Greg > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 02:47:47PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote: > > Greg, I run into this all the time. Since I'm the minority--the non-word > > user--I take it upon myself to translate the contents into something I can > > read, and usually don't bother the sendor about it unless they send me > > something that just doesn't translate well. That's my usual approach. > > > > If, the document in question is meant for publication as opposed to > > something that passes between two or three people, then it's a very > > different story. Then they don't get to be ignorant in my view. But, as I > > said, that's another story. I didn't think we were talking about > > publication. > > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > > > Yes, I do. However, you seem to be missing the point I'm trying to get across here. So, let me give you an example. > > > A professor of mine was handing out something that he had written for the class. Since I knew that he had written it by himself recently, I asked if he could e-mail me a plain text file instead, so I wouldn't need to mess with scannning the handout. His answer to me was: "you mean a word document?" I said "no, I mean a .txt file, a plain ASCII text file." He was still confused, so I said, "like the files that you create with notepad." He said "oh, ok." > > > > > > My point is as it was before. If all they know about their computer is how to turn it on and off, then how are they supposed to know about other platforms if they don't even know for sure what a text file? > > > > > > If some of you on this list want to blame the ignorant professor, then maybe you should blame universities, employers, and the way we learn and work today. Universities and employers are the ones today who tell you they want your papers in 12 point font, and formatted this way or that. Now, how are we supposed to achieve that in something like notepad/emacs/pico? And if someone else is wondering how the hell this guy became a professor without knowing crap about what kinds of files he could produce on his computer, then that is a new question to examine the answer to. > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:29:50PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote: > > > > Gregory, I keep telling you this answer, but there's some part of it that > > > > you seem to still miss. What part is that? > > > > > > > > They don't need to know a damm thing to retrieve either a text doc (no > > > > formatting), or an html doc (much formatting). > > > > > > > > They need know nothing special in order to do that. Do you understand this > > > > yet? > > > > > > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > > > > > > > And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if all they know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off? > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote: > > > > > > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers, > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging on planet > > > > > > Linux. It is correct to point out that in the ideal there should not be a > > > > > > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all know, the > > > > > > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see the world in > > > > > > the same way. Don't you just hate it when that happens. Smile. > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess my view is that if word users want to communicate with > > > > > > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the realities of > > > > > > other computer platforms. Consumer choice still has it's place! > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Charlie Crawford. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote: > > > > > > >Amen! to that Janina! > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Amanda > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net> > > > > > > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > > > > > > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM > > > > > > >Subject: Re: anti-word > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing, > > > > > > >I'm > > > > > > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word > > > > > > >format > > > > > > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such. Some of this whole > > > > > > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I > > > > > > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I > > > > > > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file > > > > > > > > format as some kind of standard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > > > > >Speakup mailing list > > > > > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Janina Sajka, Director > > > > Technology Research and Development > > > > Governmental Relations Group > > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > > > > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > > > > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG > > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > > > > http://www.openebook.org > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Speakup mailing list > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > -- > > > > Janina Sajka, Director > > Technology Research and Development > > Governmental Relations Group > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > > http://www.openebook.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > -- Janina Sajka, Director Technology Research and Development Governmental Relations Group American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 Chair, Accessibility SIG Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) http://www.openebook.org ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Janina Sajka @ ` Gregory Nowak 0 siblings, 0 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Gregory Nowak @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Yes, I agree with you that it is better to look at the whole picture. However, when I get the chance to educate an individual, I will do so, because when you enlighten an individual, you are enlightening the masses which ultimately are the individual if you know what I mean. Greg On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 03:19:41PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote: > Ah, OK, I think I understand where you're coming from on this a bit better > now. > > It took me a long time in life to come around to the understanding that I > couldn't possibly fight all battles. If for no other reason than that it > is very time consuming to do so. So, I try to choose my battles in such a > way as to leverage my time for greater effect in the campaign. > > A pro pos this discussion, to me this means that I can't educate each and > every person I interact with one at a time. I think you'd agree with me > that I have more impact for the good by focusing on things like the > NISO/DAISY digital talking book standard, and on getting the textbook > publishing industry to agree to use it meeting their obligations to make > textbooks accessible. Would you agree with this prioritization? > > If then it follows that I can't stop and deal with every comer, I must be > ready to do some of my own conversions. > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > Janina, > > First of all, we are not talking about publication (or at least I'm not in the sense of the word). Also, by taking upon your self the conversion of word documents into plain text, I feel that you are not only encouraging but also supporting the very thing you and the rest of us disscussing here are against. > > If you want to teach a bird to find its own food, you won't feed it continually, you will let it out the window or whatever so that it can learn. > > Greg > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 02:47:47PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote: > > > Greg, I run into this all the time. Since I'm the minority--the non-word > > > user--I take it upon myself to translate the contents into something I can > > > read, and usually don't bother the sendor about it unless they send me > > > something that just doesn't translate well. That's my usual approach. > > > > > > If, the document in question is meant for publication as opposed to > > > something that passes between two or three people, then it's a very > > > different story. Then they don't get to be ignorant in my view. But, as I > > > said, that's another story. I didn't think we were talking about > > > publication. > > > > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > > > > > Yes, I do. However, you seem to be missing the point I'm trying to get across here. So, let me give you an example. > > > > A professor of mine was handing out something that he had written for the class. Since I knew that he had written it by himself recently, I asked if he could e-mail me a plain text file instead, so I wouldn't need to mess with scannning the handout. His answer to me was: "you mean a word document?" I said "no, I mean a .txt file, a plain ASCII text file." He was still confused, so I said, "like the files that you create with notepad." He said "oh, ok." > > > > > > > > My point is as it was before. If all they know about their computer is how to turn it on and off, then how are they supposed to know about other platforms if they don't even know for sure what a text file? > > > > > > > > If some of you on this list want to blame the ignorant professor, then maybe you should blame universities, employers, and the way we learn and work today. Universities and employers are the ones today who tell you they want your papers in 12 point font, and formatted this way or that. Now, how are we supposed to achieve that in something like notepad/emacs/pico? And if someone else is wondering how the hell this guy became a professor without knowing crap about what kinds of files he could produce on his computer, then that is a new question to examine the answer to. > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:29:50PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote: > > > > > Gregory, I keep telling you this answer, but there's some part of it that > > > > > you seem to still miss. What part is that? > > > > > > > > > > They don't need to know a damm thing to retrieve either a text doc (no > > > > > formatting), or an html doc (much formatting). > > > > > > > > > > They need know nothing special in order to do that. Do you understand this > > > > > yet? > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if all they know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off? > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote: > > > > > > > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging on planet > > > > > > > Linux. It is correct to point out that in the ideal there should not be a > > > > > > > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all know, the > > > > > > > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see the world in > > > > > > > the same way. Don't you just hate it when that happens. Smile. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess my view is that if word users want to communicate with > > > > > > > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the realities of > > > > > > > other computer platforms. Consumer choice still has it's place! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Charlie Crawford. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote: > > > > > > > >Amen! to that Janina! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Amanda > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net> > > > > > > > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > > > > > > > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: anti-word > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing, > > > > > > > >I'm > > > > > > > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word > > > > > > > >format > > > > > > > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such. Some of this whole > > > > > > > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I > > > > > > > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I > > > > > > > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file > > > > > > > > > format as some kind of standard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > > > > > >Speakup mailing list > > > > > > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > Janina Sajka, Director > > > > > Technology Research and Development > > > > > Governmental Relations Group > > > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > > > > > > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > > > > > > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG > > > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > > > > > http://www.openebook.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Janina Sajka, Director > > > Technology Research and Development > > > Governmental Relations Group > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > > > http://www.openebook.org > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Speakup mailing list > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > -- > > Janina Sajka, Director > Technology Research and Development > Governmental Relations Group > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > Chair, Accessibility SIG > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > http://www.openebook.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Gregory Nowak ` anti-word Janina Sajka @ ` Amanda Lee ` anti-word Gregory Nowak 1 sibling, 1 reply; 108+ messages in thread From: Amanda Lee @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Absolutely Greg and very eloquently expressed. Amanda ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 3:02 PM Subject: Re: anti-word > Janina, > First of all, we are not talking about publication (or at least I'm not in the sense of the word). Also, by taking upon your self the conversion of word documents into plain text, I feel that you are not only encouraging but also supporting the very thing you and the rest of us disscussing here are against. > If you want to teach a bird to find its own food, you won't feed it continually, you will let it out the window or whatever so that it can learn. > Greg > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 02:47:47PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote: > > Greg, I run into this all the time. Since I'm the minority--the non-word > > user--I take it upon myself to translate the contents into something I can > > read, and usually don't bother the sendor about it unless they send me > > something that just doesn't translate well. That's my usual approach. > > > > If, the document in question is meant for publication as opposed to > > something that passes between two or three people, then it's a very > > different story. Then they don't get to be ignorant in my view. But, as I > > said, that's another story. I didn't think we were talking about > > publication. > > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > > > Yes, I do. However, you seem to be missing the point I'm trying to get across here. So, let me give you an example. > > > A professor of mine was handing out something that he had written for the class. Since I knew that he had written it by himself recently, I asked if he could e-mail me a plain text file instead, so I wouldn't need to mess with scannning the handout. His answer to me was: "you mean a word document?" I said "no, I mean a .txt file, a plain ASCII text file." He was still confused, so I said, "like the files that you create with notepad." He said "oh, ok." > > > > > > My point is as it was before. If all they know about their computer is how to turn it on and off, then how are they supposed to know about other platforms if they don't even know for sure what a text file? > > > > > > If some of you on this list want to blame the ignorant professor, then maybe you should blame universities, employers, and the way we learn and work today. Universities and employers are the ones today who tell you they want your papers in 12 point font, and formatted this way or that. Now, how are we supposed to achieve that in something like notepad/emacs/pico? And if someone else is wondering how the hell this guy became a professor without knowing crap about what kinds of files he could produce on his computer, then that is a new question to examine the answer to. > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:29:50PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote: > > > > Gregory, I keep telling you this answer, but there's some part of it that > > > > you seem to still miss. What part is that? > > > > > > > > They don't need to know a damm thing to retrieve either a text doc (no > > > > formatting), or an html doc (much formatting). > > > > > > > > They need know nothing special in order to do that. Do you understand this > > > > yet? > > > > > > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > > > > > > > And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if all they know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off? > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote: > > > > > > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers, > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging on planet > > > > > > Linux. It is correct to point out that in the ideal there should not be a > > > > > > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all know, the > > > > > > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see the world in > > > > > > the same way. Don't you just hate it when that happens. Smile. > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess my view is that if word users want to communicate with > > > > > > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the realities of > > > > > > other computer platforms. Consumer choice still has it's place! > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Charlie Crawford. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote: > > > > > > >Amen! to that Janina! > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Amanda > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net> > > > > > > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > > > > > > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM > > > > > > >Subject: Re: anti-word > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing, > > > > > > >I'm > > > > > > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word > > > > > > >format > > > > > > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such. Some of this whole > > > > > > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I > > > > > > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I > > > > > > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file > > > > > > > > format as some kind of standard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > > > > >Speakup mailing list > > > > > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Janina Sajka, Director > > > > Technology Research and Development > > > > Governmental Relations Group > > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > > > > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > > > > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG > > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > > > > http://www.openebook.org > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Speakup mailing list > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > -- > > > > Janina Sajka, Director > > Technology Research and Development > > Governmental Relations Group > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > > http://www.openebook.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Amanda Lee @ ` Gregory Nowak 0 siblings, 0 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Gregory Nowak @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Thank you Amanda. Greg On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 03:21:03PM -0500, Amanda Lee wrote: > Absolutely Greg and very eloquently expressed. > > Amanda > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 3:02 PM > Subject: Re: anti-word > > > > Janina, > > First of all, we are not talking about publication (or at least I'm not in > the sense of the word). Also, by taking upon your self the conversion of > word documents into plain text, I feel that you are not only encouraging but > also supporting the very thing you and the rest of us disscussing here are > against. > > If you want to teach a bird to find its own food, you won't feed it > continually, you will let it out the window or whatever so that it can > learn. > > Greg > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 02:47:47PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote: > > > Greg, I run into this all the time. Since I'm the minority--the non-word > > > user--I take it upon myself to translate the contents into something I > can > > > read, and usually don't bother the sendor about it unless they send me > > > something that just doesn't translate well. That's my usual approach. > > > > > > If, the document in question is meant for publication as opposed to > > > something that passes between two or three people, then it's a very > > > different story. Then they don't get to be ignorant in my view. But, as > I > > > said, that's another story. I didn't think we were talking about > > > publication. > > > > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > > > > > Yes, I do. However, you seem to be missing the point I'm trying to get > across here. So, let me give you an example. > > > > A professor of mine was handing out something that he had written for > the class. Since I knew that he had written it by himself recently, I asked > if he could e-mail me a plain text file instead, so I wouldn't need to mess > with scannning the handout. His answer to me was: "you mean a word > document?" I said "no, I mean a .txt file, a plain ASCII text file." He was > still confused, so I said, "like the files that you create with notepad." He > said "oh, ok." > > > > > > > > My point is as it was before. If all they know about their computer is > how to turn it on and off, then how are they supposed to know about other > platforms if they don't even know for sure what a text file? > > > > > > > > If some of you on this list want to blame the ignorant professor, then > maybe you should blame universities, employers, and the way we learn and > work today. Universities and employers are the ones today who tell you they > want your papers in 12 point font, and formatted this way or that. Now, how > are we supposed to achieve that in something like notepad/emacs/pico? And if > someone else is wondering how the hell this guy became a professor without > knowing crap about what kinds of files he could produce on his computer, > then that is a new question to examine the answer to. > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:29:50PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote: > > > > > Gregory, I keep telling you this answer, but there's some part of it > that > > > > > you seem to still miss. What part is that? > > > > > > > > > > They don't need to know a damm thing to retrieve either a text doc > (no > > > > > formatting), or an html doc (much formatting). > > > > > > > > > > They need know nothing special in order to do that. Do you > understand this > > > > > yet? > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if > all they know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off? > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote: > > > > > > > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging on > planet > > > > > > > Linux. It is correct to point out that in the ideal there > should not be a > > > > > > > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all > know, the > > > > > > > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see the > world in > > > > > > > the same way. Don't you just hate it when that happens. Smile. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess my view is that if word users want to > communicate with > > > > > > > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the > realities of > > > > > > > other computer platforms. Consumer choice still has it's place! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Charlie Crawford. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote: > > > > > > > >Amen! to that Janina! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Amanda > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net> > > > > > > > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > > > > > > > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: anti-word > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input > and editing, > > > > > > > >I'm > > > > > > > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come > back in Word > > > > > > > >format > > > > > > > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such. Some > of this whole > > > > > > > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and > reads Word. I > > > > > > > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to > Microsoft. I > > > > > > > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, > non-consensus, file > > > > > > > > > format as some kind of standard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > > > > > >Speakup mailing list > > > > > > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > Janina Sajka, Director > > > > > Technology Research and Development > > > > > Governmental Relations Group > > > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > > > > > > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > > > > > > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG > > > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > > > > > http://www.openebook.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Janina Sajka, Director > > > Technology Research and Development > > > Governmental Relations Group > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > > > http://www.openebook.org > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Speakup mailing list > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Gregory Nowak ` anti-word Amanda Lee ` anti-word Janina Sajka @ ` Steve Holmes ` anti-word Charles Crawford 3 siblings, 0 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Steve Holmes @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Yes and that reminds me of a similar experience I had at work one time where I had to practically walk through the procedure with a documentation gal on how to save the document in something other than word. At the time, I had little or no access to windows yet and I needed this file in .TXT format. Same problem, isn't it. They just don't use these features. On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > Yes, I do. However, you seem to be missing the point I'm trying to get across here. So, let me give you an example. > A professor of mine was handing out something that he had written for the class. Since I knew that he had written it by himself recently, I asked if he could e-mail me a plain text file instead, so I wouldn't need to mess with scannning the handout. His answer to me was: "you mean a word document?" I said "no, I mean a .txt file, a plain ASCII text file." He was still confused, so I said, "like the files that you create with notepad." He said "oh, ok." > > My point is as it was before. If all they know about their computer is how to turn it on and off, then how are they supposed to know about other platforms if they don't even know for sure what a text file? > > If some of you on this list want to blame the ignorant professor, then maybe you should blame universities, employers, and the way we learn and work today. Universities and employers are the ones today who tell you they want your papers in 12 point font, and formatted this way or that. Now, how are we supposed to achieve that in something like notepad/emacs/pico? And if someone else is wondering how the hell this guy became a professor without knowing crap about what kinds of files he could produce on his computer, then that is a new question to examine the answer to. > Greg > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:29:50PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote: > > Gregory, I keep telling you this answer, but there's some part of it that > > you seem to still miss. What part is that? > > > > They don't need to know a damm thing to retrieve either a text doc (no > > formatting), or an html doc (much formatting). > > > > They need know nothing special in order to do that. Do you understand this > > yet? > > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > > > And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if all they know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off? > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote: > > > > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers, > > > > > > > > Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging on planet > > > > Linux. It is correct to point out that in the ideal there should not be a > > > > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all know, the > > > > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see the world in > > > > the same way. Don't you just hate it when that happens. Smile. > > > > > > > > I guess my view is that if word users want to communicate with > > > > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the realities of > > > > other computer platforms. Consumer choice still has it's place! > > > > > > > > -- Charlie Crawford. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote: > > > > >Amen! to that Janina! > > > > > > > > > >Amanda > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net> > > > > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > > > > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM > > > > >Subject: Re: anti-word > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing, > > > > >I'm > > > > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word > > > > >format > > > > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such. Some of this whole > > > > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I > > > > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I > > > > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file > > > > > > format as some kind of standard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > > >Speakup mailing list > > > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Speakup mailing list > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > -- > > > > Janina Sajka, Director > > Technology Research and Development > > Governmental Relations Group > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > > http://www.openebook.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Gregory Nowak ` (2 preceding siblings ...) ` anti-word Steve Holmes @ ` Charles Crawford ` anti-word Gregory Nowak 3 siblings, 1 reply; 108+ messages in thread From: Charles Crawford @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Hi, Well I guess I did not want to get into a big duscussion of this, but you raise points worth answering and thanks for doing so. People will not know anything about anything unless there is an original introduction to it. So if the Prof get a text file, then he would seek to know how to handle it. Just as his becoming enlightened by your reference to notepad, so too would he be in a position to understand use a text document. Whether a text document is appropriate to the setting is a good question though. If we left it at that, then all would be more or less settled, but what about our rights as blind folks to access? Are they conditioned upon having to use what the employer for example uses? Well, the truth is that they aare. An employer has the right to utilize any software they want and as long as we too can use it, then we have to learn it. So the challenge to blind linux users is to relate to the windows world not as an us versus them, but as a reality check on others who use windows. It gets a bit tricky because of the accessibility issues and the relative ease of use issue. If we have to go climbing mountains that others do not have to climb to use a product, then that is not equal access, but our success in getting at least a couple of Windows programs to work well with access techincurrs a rsponsibility on our part to use that technology when required. So we are back where we began. We may not like having to use Ms-Word or Ms-anything, but if it is the standard that is accessible as well, then we have to do it. Responding to an MS-Word attachment with a text file is ok since it equally affords the reader with the same information presented in a different format. Would like to write more, but there goes that phone again. -- charlie Crawford. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Charles Crawford @ ` Gregory Nowak ` anti-word Jason ` anti-word Charles Crawford 0 siblings, 2 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Gregory Nowak @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup On Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 12:15:20PM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote: but what > about our rights as blind folks to access? Are they conditioned upon > having to use what the employer for example uses? Well, the truth is that > they aare. Is this fair? No. Can it possibly be changed? Maybe, but only by the blind masses. An employer has the right to utilize any software they want and > as long as we too can use it, then we have to learn it. A sighted person can read braille with their eyes too, maybe better then some of us with our hands. So, why aren't they all learning it if they can use it too and thus make our lives easier to some degree? Greg ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Gregory Nowak @ ` Jason ` anti-word Gregory Nowak ` anti-word Kirk Wood ` anti-word Charles Crawford 1 sibling, 2 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Jason @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup this is OT, but actually, having tried to learn braille by sight, I found that it was a lot less confusing by touch; for example: by sight the "e" and "i" symbols look the same (to me) but feel nothing alike. now you ask why I wanted to teach myself braille huh? > A sighted person can read braille with their eyes too, maybe better then > some of us with our hands. So, why aren't they all learning it if they can > use it too and thus make our lives easier to some degree? Greg ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Jason @ ` Gregory Nowak ` anti-word Kirk Wood 1 sibling, 0 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Gregory Nowak @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Ok, so maybe that wasn't a good example. Greg On Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 03:18:32PM -0700, Jason wrote: > this is OT, but actually, having tried to learn braille by sight, I found > that it was a lot less confusing by touch; for example: by sight the "e" and > "i" symbols look the same (to me) but feel nothing alike. > > now you ask why I wanted to teach myself braille huh? > > > A sighted person can read braille with their eyes too, maybe better then > > some of us with our hands. So, why aren't they all learning it if they can > > use it too and thus make our lives easier to some degree? Greg > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Jason ` anti-word Gregory Nowak @ ` Kirk Wood ` anti-word Gregory Nowak 1 sibling, 1 reply; 108+ messages in thread From: Kirk Wood @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup > A sighted person can read braille with their eyes too, maybe better then > some of us with our hands. So, why aren't they all learning it if they can > use it too and thus make our lives easier to some degree? Greg Actually, some of us do. I find it handy to be able to leave my roomie a note. But hey, perhaps we should do away with print in favor of braille. I mean why should we sighted people enjoy being able to carry an entire reference work in a single book? For example, why should I be able to fit an entire bible into a cargo pocket? It isn't like I would ever read the entire thing in a single sitting anyway right? Damn the forests, we are all going braille!!! ======= Kirk Wood Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net Nowlan's Theory: He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from the next freeway exit. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Kirk Wood @ ` Gregory Nowak ` anti-word Kirk Wood 0 siblings, 1 reply; 108+ messages in thread From: Gregory Nowak @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup hahahahahahaha. Let's do away with print anyway (grin). Greg On Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 04:56:26PM -0600, Kirk Wood wrote: > > A sighted person can read braille with their eyes too, maybe better then > > some of us with our hands. So, why aren't they all learning it if they can > > use it too and thus make our lives easier to some degree? Greg > > Actually, some of us do. I find it handy to be able to leave my roomie a > note. But hey, perhaps we should do away with print in favor of braille. I > mean why should we sighted people enjoy being able to carry an entire > reference work in a single book? For example, why should I be able to fit > an entire bible into a cargo pocket? It isn't like I would ever read the > entire thing in a single sitting anyway right? > > Damn the forests, we are all going braille!!! > > ======= > Kirk Wood > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net > > Nowlan's Theory: > He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from > the next freeway exit. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Gregory Nowak @ ` Kirk Wood ` anti-word Gregory Nowak ` braille fonts William Hubbs 0 siblings, 2 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Kirk Wood @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup > hahahahahahaha. Let's do away with print anyway (grin). > Greg Of course we could work on making smaller braille fonts. If you shrink the spacing by just 20% you would fit so much more on the page. ======= Kirk Wood Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net Nowlan's Theory: He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from the next freeway exit. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Kirk Wood @ ` Gregory Nowak ` anti-word Kirk Wood ` braille fonts William Hubbs 1 sibling, 1 reply; 108+ messages in thread From: Gregory Nowak @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Hmmmm, and how would you go about doing that? Greg On Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 07:12:27PM -0600, Kirk Wood wrote: > > hahahahahahaha. Let's do away with print anyway (grin). > > Greg > > Of course we could work on making smaller braille fonts. If you shrink the > spacing by just 20% you would fit so much more on the page. > > ======= > Kirk Wood > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net > > Nowlan's Theory: > He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from > the next freeway exit. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Gregory Nowak @ ` Kirk Wood 0 siblings, 0 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Kirk Wood @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Well it would require making new braille machines. But we would just decrease the space between dots a little. ======= Kirk Wood Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net Nowlan's Theory: He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from the next freeway exit. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* braille fonts ` anti-word Kirk Wood ` anti-word Gregory Nowak @ ` William Hubbs ` Charles Hallenbeck ` Amanda Lee 1 sibling, 2 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: William Hubbs @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Would braille still be readable if we decreased the size? If we decreased it too much, I don't think we would be able to read it. William On Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 07:12:27PM -0600, Kirk Wood wrote: > > hahahahahahaha. Let's do away with print anyway (grin). > > Greg > > Of course we could work on making smaller braille fonts. If you shrink the > spacing by just 20% you would fit so much more on the page. > > ======= > Kirk Wood > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net > > Nowlan's Theory: > He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from > the next freeway exit. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: braille fonts ` braille fonts William Hubbs @ ` Charles Hallenbeck ` BTBG ` Gregory Nowak ` Amanda Lee 1 sibling, 2 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Charles Hallenbeck @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Braille would still be readable if it were much smaller, say a half or a third of its standard size. The only thing is, you would have to use your tongue to read it, since your tongue is (almost) the only part of your body which is sufficiently sensitive. How about getting back to computing? On Mon, 14 Jan 2002, William Hubbs wrote: > Would braille still be readable if we decreased the size? > If we decreased it too much, I don't think we would be able to read it. > > William > > On Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 07:12:27PM -0600, Kirk Wood wrote: > > > hahahahahahaha. Let's do away with print anyway (grin). > > > Greg > > > > Of course we could work on making smaller braille fonts. If you shrink the > > spacing by just 20% you would fit so much more on the page. > > > > ======= > > Kirk Wood > > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net > > > > Nowlan's Theory: > > He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from > > the next freeway exit. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > *<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>* Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh The Moon is Waxing Crescent (3% of Full) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: braille fonts ` Charles Hallenbeck @ ` BTBG ` Gregory Nowak 1 sibling, 0 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: BTBG @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Now there's a mental image. Next thing you know we'll have flavored paper*grin*. Personally I think braille is small enough. If only refreshable braille displays weren't so expensive. Once ebooks become more mainstream, things like Braille and Speaks will will be the way to go in reading massive volumes of reference materials and other books. A person really could carry that previously mentioned bible in their pocket. from Keith H. A husband is someone who takes out the trash and gives the impression he just cleaned the whole house. --- You Wrote: --- Braille would still be readable if it were much smaller, say a half or a third of its standard size. The only thing is, you would have to use your tongue to read it, since your tongue is (almost) the only part of your body which is sufficiently sensitive. How about getting back to computing? <snip> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: braille fonts ` Charles Hallenbeck ` BTBG @ ` Gregory Nowak 1 sibling, 0 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Gregory Nowak @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Hmmmm, if we're going to use our tonges, there goes the idea of using paper. Greg On Tue, Jan 15, 2002 at 06:32:34AM -0500, Charles Hallenbeck wrote: > Braille would still be readable if it were much smaller, say a > half or a third of its standard size. The only thing is, you > would have to use your tongue to read it, since your tongue is > (almost) the only part of your body which is sufficiently > sensitive. > > How about getting back to computing? > > > On Mon, 14 Jan 2002, William Hubbs wrote: > > > Would braille still be readable if we decreased the size? > > If we decreased it too much, I don't think we would be able to read it. > > > > William > > > > On Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 07:12:27PM -0600, Kirk Wood wrote: > > > > hahahahahahaha. Let's do away with print anyway (grin). > > > > Greg > > > > > > Of course we could work on making smaller braille fonts. If you shrink the > > > spacing by just 20% you would fit so much more on the page. > > > > > > ======= > > > Kirk Wood > > > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net > > > > > > Nowlan's Theory: > > > He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from > > > the next freeway exit. > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Speakup mailing list > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > *<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>* > Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh > The Moon is Waxing Crescent (3% of Full) > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: braille fonts ` braille fonts William Hubbs ` Charles Hallenbeck @ ` Amanda Lee 1 sibling, 0 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Amanda Lee @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup I'm behind on the list reading. There is micro braille but isn't in wide use. The only aid I know of for writing micro braille is a special slate and stylus and I don't remember where it is or was available. Perhaps from American Printinghouse for the Blind in Louisville, KY. Amanda Lee ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Hubbs" <kc5eiv@kc5eiv.ddts.net> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 8:15 PM Subject: braille fonts > Would braille still be readable if we decreased the size? > If we decreased it too much, I don't think we would be able to read it. > > William > > On Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 07:12:27PM -0600, Kirk Wood wrote: > > > hahahahahahaha. Let's do away with print anyway (grin). > > > Greg > > > > Of course we could work on making smaller braille fonts. If you shrink the > > spacing by just 20% you would fit so much more on the page. > > > > ======= > > Kirk Wood > > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net > > > > Nowlan's Theory: > > He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from > > the next freeway exit. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Gregory Nowak ` anti-word Jason @ ` Charles Crawford 1 sibling, 0 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Charles Crawford @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Well, we are getting into the esoteric considerations of common sense. Probably time to move on to another subject. -- charlie. At 02:27 PM 01/14/2002 -0600, you wrote: >On Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 12:15:20PM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote: >but what > > about our rights as blind folks to access? Are they conditioned upon > > having to use what the employer for example uses? Well, the truth is that > > they aare. >Is this fair? No. Can it possibly be changed? Maybe, but only by the blind >masses. > > > An employer has the right to utilize any software they want and > > as long as we too can use it, then we have to learn it. >A sighted person can read braille with their eyes too, maybe better then >some of us with our hands. So, why aren't they all learning it if they can >use it too and thus make our lives easier to some degree? >Greg > > >_______________________________________________ >Speakup mailing list >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Gregory Nowak ` anti-word Janina Sajka @ ` Amanda Lee ` anti-word Gregory Nowak ` anti-word Thomas Ward ` anti-word Charles Crawford 3 siblings, 1 reply; 108+ messages in thread From: Amanda Lee @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup@Braille.Uwo.Ca They'd rather you: "don't ask/don't tell!" they simply do not care. A pc is a tool to the masses and nothing more and they don't want to be troubled with the minutia of technical information. They want to push a button and see their results. I'd personally like to do the same thing if I knew that my outcome is the same but it doesn't work that way when we aren't able to use our technologies to track in the same manner as able-sighted persons. I have received more than one form developed in Word and it is the most hosed up piece o'junk! I've never received a Word Form which I can reliably fillout and, unless I used a Braille display, there was no way to determine where the data was being entered. I do not subscribe to the notion that just because a person who is blind can marginally interact with an application in Windows, that he or she must do so to conform with what those who are clueless about how we function in the first place. If you can perform a task in Linux or DOS more effectively, provided the outcome is the same, why spend more time doing it in Windows merely for the sake of conformity. Performance is key not conformity because in this day and age, we are expected to accomplish more in less time. Amanda Lee ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 12:14 PM Subject: Re: anti-word > And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if all they know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off? > Greg > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote: > > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers, > > > > Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging on planet > > Linux. It is correct to point out that in the ideal there should not be a > > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all know, the > > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see the world in > > the same way. Don't you just hate it when that happens. Smile. > > > > I guess my view is that if word users want to communicate with > > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the realities of > > other computer platforms. Consumer choice still has it's place! > > > > -- Charlie Crawford. > > > > > > > > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote: > > >Amen! to that Janina! > > > > > >Amanda > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net> > > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM > > >Subject: Re: anti-word > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote: > > > > > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing, > > >I'm > > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word > > >format > > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such. Some of this whole > > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I > > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I > > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file > > > > format as some kind of standard. > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >Speakup mailing list > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Amanda Lee @ ` Gregory Nowak 0 siblings, 0 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Gregory Nowak @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Amanda, exactly, exactly, exactly. Greg On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:43:23PM -0500, Amanda Lee wrote: > They'd rather you: > > "don't ask/don't tell!" > > they simply do not care. A pc is a tool to the masses and nothing more and > they don't want to be troubled with the minutia of technical information. > They want to push a button and see their results. > > I'd personally like to do the same thing if I knew that my outcome is the > same but it doesn't work that way when we aren't able to use our > technologies to track in the same > manner as able-sighted persons. I have received more than one form > developed in Word and it is the most hosed up piece o'junk! I've never > received a Word Form which I can reliably fillout and, unless I used a > Braille display, there was no way to determine where the data was being > entered. > > > I do not subscribe to the notion that just because a person who is blind can > marginally interact with an application in Windows, that he or she must do > so to conform with what those who are clueless about how we function in the > first place. If you can perform a task in Linux or DOS more effectively, > provided the outcome is the same, why spend more time doing it in Windows > merely for the sake of conformity. Performance is key not conformity > because in this day and age, we are expected to accomplish more in less > time. > > Amanda Lee > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 12:14 PM > Subject: Re: anti-word > > > > And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if all they > know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off? > > Greg > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote: > > > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers, > > > > > > Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging on planet > > > Linux. It is correct to point out that in the ideal there should not be > a > > > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all know, the > > > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see the world > in > > > the same way. Don't you just hate it when that happens. Smile. > > > > > > I guess my view is that if word users want to communicate with > > > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the realities of > > > other computer platforms. Consumer choice still has it's place! > > > > > > -- Charlie Crawford. > > > > > > > > > > > > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote: > > > >Amen! to that Janina! > > > > > > > >Amanda > > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net> > > > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > > > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM > > > >Subject: Re: anti-word > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and > editing, > > > >I'm > > > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in > Word > > > >format > > > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such. Some of this > whole > > > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. > I > > > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I > > > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, > file > > > > > format as some kind of standard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > >Speakup mailing list > > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Speakup mailing list > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Gregory Nowak ` anti-word Janina Sajka ` anti-word Amanda Lee @ ` Thomas Ward ` anti-word Charles Crawford 3 siblings, 0 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Thomas Ward @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Well, as far as I have understood it the reason Microsoft has been allowed to get MS Word out to the masses is simplisity. It is easier for sighted users to move the mouse to the toolbar, click center, and be done with it. Ask any number of Joe Smo users, and they would gripe to high heaven if they had to do all documents using something like an html tag such as: <BR><CENTER> Chapter 1. </CENTER> On seeing this debate I can see opening pico and writing a paper in html to be useful. The reason for a blind user we don't have to double check the wordprocessor to make sure it did what it clamed. if there is a <I> </I> around a certain place of text we know it will be in italics. However, there are many businesses that won't budge. They want to import there Word, Excel, and access files into Linux and demand some cross platform compatibility. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gregory Nowak <gnowak1@uic.edu> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 12:14 PM Subject: Re: anti-word > And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if all they know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off? > Greg > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote: > > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers, > > > > Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging on planet > > Linux. It is correct to point out that in the ideal there should not be a > > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all know, the > > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see the world in > > the same way. Don't you just hate it when that happens. Smile. > > > > I guess my view is that if word users want to communicate with > > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the realities of > > other computer platforms. Consumer choice still has it's place! > > > > -- Charlie Crawford. > > > > > > > > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote: > > >Amen! to that Janina! > > > > > >Amanda > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net> > > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM > > >Subject: Re: anti-word > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote: > > > > > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing, > > >I'm > > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word > > >format > > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such. Some of this whole > > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I > > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I > > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file > > > > format as some kind of standard. > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >Speakup mailing list > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Gregory Nowak ` (2 preceding siblings ...) ` anti-word Thomas Ward @ ` Charles Crawford ` anti-word Gregory Nowak 3 siblings, 1 reply; 108+ messages in thread From: Charles Crawford @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Easy, they see a text file in the response. -- Charlie. At 11:14 AM 1/13/02 -0600, you wrote: >And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if all they >know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off? >Greg > > >On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote: > > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers, > > > > Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging on planet > > Linux. It is correct to point out that in the ideal there should not be a > > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all know, the > > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see the world in > > the same way. Don't you just hate it when that happens. Smile. > > > > I guess my view is that if word users want to communicate with > > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the realities of > > other computer platforms. Consumer choice still has it's place! > > > > -- Charlie Crawford. > > > > > > > > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote: > > >Amen! to that Janina! > > > > > >Amanda > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net> > > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM > > >Subject: Re: anti-word > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote: > > > > > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing, > > >I'm > > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word > > >format > > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such. Some of > this whole > > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I > > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I > > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file > > > > format as some kind of standard. > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >Speakup mailing list > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > >_______________________________________________ >Speakup mailing list >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Charles Crawford @ ` Gregory Nowak 0 siblings, 0 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Gregory Nowak @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Ok, but seeing a text file won't tell them that it's been written with emacs under Linux, since you can do the same with notepad. It's just like seeing a car won't automatically tell you that it is a shevy. Greg On Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 11:53:45AM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote: > Easy, they see a text file in the response. > -- Charlie. > At 11:14 AM 1/13/02 -0600, you wrote: > >And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if all they > >know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off? > >Greg > > > > > >On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote: > > > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers, > > > > > > Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging on planet > > > Linux. It is correct to point out that in the ideal there should not be a > > > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all know, the > > > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see the world in > > > the same way. Don't you just hate it when that happens. Smile. > > > > > > I guess my view is that if word users want to communicate with > > > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the realities of > > > other computer platforms. Consumer choice still has it's place! > > > > > > -- Charlie Crawford. > > > > > > > > > > > > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote: > > > >Amen! to that Janina! > > > > > > > >Amanda > > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net> > > > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > > > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM > > > >Subject: Re: anti-word > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing, > > > >I'm > > > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word > > > >format > > > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such. Some of > > this whole > > > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I > > > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I > > > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file > > > > > format as some kind of standard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > >Speakup mailing list > > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Speakup mailing list > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Speakup mailing list > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Charles Crawford ` anti-word Gregory Nowak @ ` Janina Sajka ` anti-word Kirk Wood 1 sibling, 1 reply; 108+ messages in thread From: Janina Sajka @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Charley: I'm all for consumer choice. That's why I like linux. And I admit that for whatever reasons most users choose Microsoft. And, I admit that, since I'm in the minoirity, I'm the one who must adapt somehow. What I cannot accept, however, is an attitude that says my choice should be entirely invisible to the majority. My choice is also my perogative. And, if the majority wishes to cede its freedoms to some corporation, that is their perogative as well. But, they cannot expect me to pretend like I do that too. I have no interest in being, or pretending to be, a slave. On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Charles Crawford wrote: > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers, > > Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging on planet > Linux. It is correct to point out that in the ideal there should not be a > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all know, the > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see the world in > the same way. Don't you just hate it when that happens. Smile. > > I guess my view is that if word users want to communicate with > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the realities of > other computer platforms. Consumer choice still has it's place! > > -- Charlie Crawford. > > > > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote: > >Amen! to that Janina! > > > >Amanda > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net> > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM > >Subject: Re: anti-word > > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote: > > > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing, > >I'm > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word > >format > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such. Some of this whole > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me. > > > > > > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file > > > format as some kind of standard. > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Speakup mailing list > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Speakup mailing list > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > -- Janina Sajka, Director Technology Research and Development Governmental Relations Group American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 Chair, Accessibility SIG Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) http://www.openebook.org ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Janina Sajka @ ` Kirk Wood ` anti-word Jason ` (3 more replies) 0 siblings, 4 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Kirk Wood @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup I hope for the sake of blind people Janina speaks for herself and not the AFB. Reality strike here. Many people use their computer for primarily business reasons. And as such they are stuck with the arrogant rules of a business. For some stupid reason us sighted folks prefer text that is formatted. And no Janina, html and text don't give the level of formatting that word does. Sorry, but does not computer. Will not compute. ======= Kirk Wood Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net Nowlan's Theory: He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from the next freeway exit. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Kirk Wood @ ` Jason ` anti-word Amanda Lee ` anti-word Kirk Wood ` anti-word Janina Sajka ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 2 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Jason @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup hmmm.... when you add cascading style sheets to the HTML format, I'd say it's almost as good as Word's formatting.... besides I've seen some HTML that's better formatted than any word document. Granted, HTML isn't exactly geared toward being printed, but it would only take a few modifications to make it so. (Anybody remember Word Perfect for DOS? It would let you veiw the formatting codes in the document and delete stupid mistakes like the bold tag that reversed the emphasis in your whole document... well HTML can do that too, Word can't) On Sunday January 13, 2002 11:49 am, you wrote: > I hope for the sake of blind people Janina speaks for herself and not the > AFB. Reality strike here. Many people use their computer for primarily > business reasons. And as such they are stuck with the arrogant rules of a > business. For some stupid reason us sighted folks prefer text that is > formatted. And no Janina, html and text don't give the level of formatting > that word does. Sorry, but does not computer. Will not compute. > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Jason @ ` Amanda Lee ` anti-word Janina Sajka ` anti-word Kirk Wood 1 sibling, 1 reply; 108+ messages in thread From: Amanda Lee @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Yes I do and still use WP5 when I want to do any reliable document formatting. I will burn my WP5 master diskettes onto CDs and keep those in a very safe place! Amanda Lee ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason" <unleet@qwest.net> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 2:00 PM Subject: Re: anti-word > hmmm.... when you add cascading style sheets to the HTML format, I'd say it's > almost as good as Word's formatting.... besides I've seen some HTML that's > better formatted than any word document. > > Granted, HTML isn't exactly geared toward being printed, but it would only > take a few modifications to make it so. > > (Anybody remember Word Perfect for DOS? It would let you veiw the formatting > codes in the document and delete stupid mistakes like the bold tag that > reversed the emphasis in your whole document... well HTML can do that too, > Word can't) > > On Sunday January 13, 2002 11:49 am, you wrote: > > I hope for the sake of blind people Janina speaks for herself and not the > > AFB. Reality strike here. Many people use their computer for primarily > > business reasons. And as such they are stuck with the arrogant rules of a > > business. For some stupid reason us sighted folks prefer text that is > > formatted. And no Janina, html and text don't give the level of formatting > > that word does. Sorry, but does not computer. Will not compute. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Amanda Lee @ ` Janina Sajka 0 siblings, 0 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Janina Sajka @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Yes, I daresay that WordPerfect 5.1 for DOS is still regarded by most blind people (who remember it) as the best word processor ever. I know quite a few folks who still use it when they actually need to get some serious writing done. On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote: > Yes I do and still use WP5 when I want to do any reliable document > formatting. I will burn my WP5 master diskettes onto CDs and keep those in > a very safe place! > > Amanda Lee > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jason" <unleet@qwest.net> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 2:00 PM > Subject: Re: anti-word > > > > hmmm.... when you add cascading style sheets to the HTML format, I'd say > it's > > almost as good as Word's formatting.... besides I've seen some HTML that's > > better formatted than any word document. > > > > Granted, HTML isn't exactly geared toward being printed, but it would only > > take a few modifications to make it so. > > > > (Anybody remember Word Perfect for DOS? It would let you veiw the > formatting > > codes in the document and delete stupid mistakes like the bold tag that > > reversed the emphasis in your whole document... well HTML can do that too, > > Word can't) > > > > On Sunday January 13, 2002 11:49 am, you wrote: > > > I hope for the sake of blind people Janina speaks for herself and not > the > > > AFB. Reality strike here. Many people use their computer for primarily > > > business reasons. And as such they are stuck with the arrogant rules of > a > > > business. For some stupid reason us sighted folks prefer text that is > > > formatted. And no Janina, html and text don't give the level of > formatting > > > that word does. Sorry, but does not computer. Will not compute. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > -- Janina Sajka, Director Technology Research and Development Governmental Relations Group American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 Chair, Accessibility SIG Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) http://www.openebook.org ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Jason ` anti-word Amanda Lee @ ` Kirk Wood ` anti-word Janina Sajka 1 sibling, 1 reply; 108+ messages in thread From: Kirk Wood @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Jason wrote: > (Anybody remember Word Perfect for DOS? It would let you veiw the formatting > codes in the document and delete stupid mistakes like the bold tag that > reversed the emphasis in your whole document... well HTML can do that too, > Word can't) And now the lack of knowing a product is perfectly illustrated. You can indeed look at formating information in Word. But there is less need to *if* you know the program. ======= Kirk Wood Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net Nowlan's Theory: He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from the next freeway exit. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Kirk Wood @ ` Janina Sajka ` word settings Kirk Wood ` anti-word Thomas Ward 0 siblings, 2 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Janina Sajka @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup How do you do that in Word? How do you get it to show its codes for carriage return, tab, bold, font, margin setting, etc., etc, all in the stream of data as they exist sequentially in the file. I'm talking byte by byte. How do you do that? On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Kirk Wood wrote: > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Jason wrote: > > (Anybody remember Word Perfect for DOS? It would let you veiw the formatting > > codes in the document and delete stupid mistakes like the bold tag that > > reversed the emphasis in your whole document... well HTML can do that too, > > Word can't) > > And now the lack of knowing a product is perfectly illustrated. You can > indeed look at formating information in Word. But there is less need to > *if* you know the program. > > ======= > Kirk Wood > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net > > Nowlan's Theory: > He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from > the next freeway exit. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > -- Janina Sajka, Director Technology Research and Development Governmental Relations Group American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 Chair, Accessibility SIG Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) http://www.openebook.org ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* word settings ` anti-word Janina Sajka @ ` Kirk Wood ` Janina Sajka ` anti-word Thomas Ward 1 sibling, 1 reply; 108+ messages in thread From: Kirk Wood @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup If you need to see formating characters in Word, click on Tools, options and go to the View tab. There you have have a host of non-printing characters shown to you. It doesn't show every character, but does reveal most. There is a good chance that the charcaters won't read with a screen reader though. I don't believe that Word deserves its place in society. I personally think that it will eventually falter as it gets more and more bloated. There are some people who notice that a file from word 2000 is 25% larger then the same file in word 97. One day people will notice that there are virtually no viruses written for non windows platforms. Until then, I will continue to upkeep my macroslop skill set. ======= Kirk Wood Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net Nowlan's Theory: He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from the next freeway exit. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: word settings ` word settings Kirk Wood @ ` Janina Sajka 0 siblings, 0 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Janina Sajka @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Kirk Wood wrote: > It doesn't show every character, but does reveal most. So, it doesn't do the same thing WordPerfect does. Or emacs. Or html ... So, are you now retracting your categorical claim of equivalence between Word and WordPerfect in this regard? On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Kirk Wood wrote: > If you need to see formating characters in Word, click on Tools, options > and go to the View tab. There you have have a host of non-printing > characters shown to you. It doesn't show every character, but does reveal > most. There is a good chance that the charcaters won't read with a screen > reader though. > > I don't believe that Word deserves its place in society. I personally > think that it will eventually falter as it gets more and more > bloated. There are some people who notice that a file from word 2000 is > 25% larger then the same file in word 97. One day people will notice that > there are virtually no viruses written for non windows platforms. Until > then, I will continue to upkeep my macroslop skill set. > > ======= > Kirk Wood > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net > > Nowlan's Theory: > He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from > the next freeway exit. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > -- Janina Sajka, Director Technology Research and Development Governmental Relations Group American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 Chair, Accessibility SIG Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) http://www.openebook.org ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Janina Sajka ` word settings Kirk Wood @ ` Thomas Ward 1 sibling, 0 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Thomas Ward @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup I sure remember. I used WP51 for dos long after all my class mates were moving on to Office 95, and I loved Wordperfect 5.1. It is a shame i can't find the diskettes, because I'd slap it on my Linux machine with dosemu. WP for dos was [perhaps the best wordprocessor ever made. > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Jason wrote: > > > (Anybody remember Word Perfect for DOS? It would let you veiw the formatting > > > codes in the document and delete stupid mistakes like the bold tag that > > > reversed the emphasis in your whole document... well HTML can do that too, > > > Word can't) > > > > And now the lack of knowing a product is perfectly illustrated. You can > > indeed look at formating information in Word. But there is less need to > > *if* you know the program. > > > > ======= > > Kirk Wood > > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net > > > > Nowlan's Theory: > > He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from > > the next freeway exit. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > -- > > Janina Sajka, Director > Technology Research and Development > Governmental Relations Group > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > Chair, Accessibility SIG > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > http://www.openebook.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Kirk Wood ` anti-word Jason @ ` Janina Sajka ` anti-word Shaun Oliver [not found] ` <Pine.LNX.4.43.0201131453550.15471-100000@toccata.dsl092-17 0-083.wdc1.dsl.speakeasy.net> 3 siblings, 0 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Janina Sajka @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Well, I believe you're wrong on both counts, in terms of what AFB supports and in terms of what's good for blind people. Proprietary formats that work sometimes, and don't work often are not good for blind people. For example, when it comes to inaccessible documents, such as the forms mentioned in an earlier message, an accomondation can reasonably be enforced under the ADA. I speak here of the most restrictive circumstance such that of employment where, as you pointed out, there are defined company standards. There are other examples. You have, however, apparently narrowed the scope of this discussion to file sharing within some kind of organizational entity--a company, a school. The issue goes beyond that. When the situation is a proprietary format to someone outside of an organizational entity, the entity is on even weaker ground. They have no basis in law to compel someone to spend money on devices they would otherwise not purchase in order to read something they're entitled to read. An excellent example of this circumstance are Sec. 508 (and I daresay 504). When the government chooses to publish forms on the web, they are now required to be accessible forms. And, they must be accessible to a wider variety of individuals with a wider variety of technologies. They cannot, for example, say "Word is accessible, so we can publish Word," because it's arguably only accessible to those with that kind of technology. The public service must serve the greater public, not just that majority that may have chosen Word somehow. On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Kirk Wood wrote: > I hope for the sake of blind people Janina speaks for herself and not the > AFB. Reality strike here. Many people use their computer for primarily > business reasons. And as such they are stuck with the arrogant rules of a > business. For some stupid reason us sighted folks prefer text that is > formatted. And no Janina, html and text don't give the level of formatting > that word does. Sorry, but does not computer. Will not compute. > > ======= > Kirk Wood > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net > > Nowlan's Theory: > He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from > the next freeway exit. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > -- Janina Sajka, Director Technology Research and Development Governmental Relations Group American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 Chair, Accessibility SIG Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) http://www.openebook.org ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Kirk Wood ` anti-word Jason ` anti-word Janina Sajka @ ` Shaun Oliver [not found] ` <Pine.LNX.4.43.0201131453550.15471-100000@toccata.dsl092-17 0-083.wdc1.dsl.speakeasy.net> 3 siblings, 0 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Shaun Oliver @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup; +Cc: samhowe On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Kirk Wood wrote: > I hope for the sake of blind people Janina speaks for herself and not the > AFB. Reality strike here. Many people use their computer for primarily > business reasons. And as such they are stuck with the arrogant rules of a > business. For some stupid reason us sighted folks prefer text that is > formatted. And no Janina, html and text don't give the level of formatting > that word does. Sorry, but does not computer. Will not compute. Here here!! This is my point exactly. We cannot expect everyone to conform to our way of doing things just because our screen reader or sheer stubbenness won't allow us to conform to everyone else. I also had it pointed out to me that web pages for example should have a degree of prettyness to them or no one will stay long enough for your page to be viable. Let's face it, sightlings want the pretty pictures and the animated gif images. all you need to do ia add a textual tag to the thing so we know what's there. I buy a magazine every month called pc world, and in this magazine they pull apart web pages and tell you why it works or why it will fail dismally. so just be mindful of what sighted people want to see when you design a web page. Just because your screen reader can read it, doesn't mean everyone else who has sight can. > > ======= > Kirk Wood > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net > > Nowlan's Theory: > He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from > the next freeway exit. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > -- Shaun Oliver Marriage is a three ring circus: engagement ring, wedding ring, and suffering. -- Roger Price Email: shauno@goanna.net.au Icq: 76958435 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
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* Re: anti-word [not found] ` <Pine.LNX.4.43.0201131453550.15471-100000@toccata.dsl092-17 0-083.wdc1.dsl.speakeasy.net> @ ` Charles Crawford ` anti-word Janina Sajka 0 siblings, 1 reply; 108+ messages in thread From: Charles Crawford @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Janina, I am not sure there is an entitlement to the processor or file of your choosing as much as there is an entitlement to accessibility. Your point on having to buy a new computer to access something does however modify the situation and I will have to think about that one. -- charlie Crawford. At 03:08 PM 1/13/02 -0500, you wrote: >Well, I believe you're wrong on both counts, in terms of what AFB supports >and in terms of what's good for blind people. > >Proprietary formats that work sometimes, and don't work often are not good >for blind people. For example, when it comes to inaccessible documents, >such as the forms mentioned in an earlier message, an accomondation can >reasonably be enforced under the ADA. I speak here of the most >restrictive circumstance such that of employment where, as you >pointed out, there are defined company standards. There are other >examples. > >You have, however, apparently narrowed the scope of this discussion to >file sharing within some kind of organizational entity--a company, a >school. The issue goes beyond that. > >When the situation is a proprietary format to someone outside of an >organizational entity, the entity is on even weaker ground. They have no >basis in law to compel someone to spend money on devices they would >otherwise not purchase in order to read something they're entitled to >read. An excellent example of this circumstance are Sec. 508 (and I >daresay 504). When the government chooses to publish forms on the web, >they are now required to be accessible forms. And, they must be accessible >to a wider variety of individuals with a wider variety of technologies. >They cannot, for example, say "Word is accessible, so we can publish >Word," because it's arguably only accessible to those with that kind of >technology. The public service must serve the greater public, not just >that majority that may have chosen Word somehow. > > > > On >Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Kirk Wood wrote: > > > I hope for the sake of blind people Janina speaks for herself and not the > > AFB. Reality strike here. Many people use their computer for primarily > > business reasons. And as such they are stuck with the arrogant rules of a > > business. For some stupid reason us sighted folks prefer text that is > > formatted. And no Janina, html and text don't give the level of formatting > > that word does. Sorry, but does not computer. Will not compute. > > > > ======= > > Kirk Wood > > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net > > > > Nowlan's Theory: > > He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from > > the next freeway exit. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > >-- > > Janina Sajka, Director > Technology Research and Development > Governmental Relations Group > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > >Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > >Chair, Accessibility SIG >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) >http://www.openebook.org > > >_______________________________________________ >Speakup mailing list >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Charles Crawford @ ` Janina Sajka ` anti-word Amanda Lee 0 siblings, 1 reply; 108+ messages in thread From: Janina Sajka @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Charley: First of all, thanks for stating the employment situation from the positive perspective. I think you and I said substantially the same thing, though I said it more negatively. The issue of whether or not access can be limited to any particular type of technology is, I think, at the core of the issue in the public domain. Let me take it to 508 directly. My 508 analysis says two things: 1.) The goivernment, as the employer of persons with disabilities, can mandate any technology it wishes to mandate, because it also has the power and obligation to deliver that technology to the worker's desk, together with training and support which understands and teaches how to use that technology accessibly. Example? PDF maybe a pretty dumb file format, but it's probably OK for the Feds to adopt PDF inhouse; 2.) Publishing to the public is a different matter entirely. The government is obligated in its public information systems to serve the public, broadly defined. It must, therefore, adopt generic technologies which are most likely to serve the greatest number of users. This is its fundamental obligation. It cannot, therefore, adopt technologies in its public infrastructures which require proprietary technologies adopted by some users, but not by others, as long as a significant minority exists. It is probably this "significant minority" which determines the bounds of this mandate, i.e. cp/m support can probably be ignored, but DOS users, Mac users, and (increasingly) linux users, probably cannot be ignored. Example: We may argue whether or not PDF is accessible with the recent enhancements from Adobe and their incorporation by screen readers such as JFW and WinEyes. In the public information sector this argument is irrelevant. A significant number, possibly still even a majority, of the public who are persons with disabilities do not have these technologies and cannot be compelled to acquire them in order to obtain service from the Federal government. Moreover, the government must design its public information systems in such a manner as is most likely to serve all of these users, and not just those who have laid out the greenbacks to acquire and acquaint themselves with more recent versions of Windows and one of the aforementioned Windows screen readers; Given that something like 90% of Federal IT spending (total of about $68 Billion by 2006) is projected to be contracted out (today's Wall Street Journal), we can expect to see this theory tested in the courts, imho. On Mon, 14 Jan 2002, Charles Crawford wrote: > Janina, > > I am not sure there is an entitlement to the processor or file of > your choosing as much as there is an entitlement to accessibility. Your > point on having to buy a new computer to access something does however > modify the situation and I will have to think about that one. > > -- charlie Crawford. > At 03:08 PM 1/13/02 -0500, you wrote: > >Well, I believe you're wrong on both counts, in terms of what AFB supports > >and in terms of what's good for blind people. > > > >Proprietary formats that work sometimes, and don't work often are not good > >for blind people. For example, when it comes to inaccessible documents, > >such as the forms mentioned in an earlier message, an accomondation can > >reasonably be enforced under the ADA. I speak here of the most > >restrictive circumstance such that of employment where, as you > >pointed out, there are defined company standards. There are other > >examples. > > > >You have, however, apparently narrowed the scope of this discussion to > >file sharing within some kind of organizational entity--a company, a > >school. The issue goes beyond that. > > > >When the situation is a proprietary format to someone outside of an > >organizational entity, the entity is on even weaker ground. They have no > >basis in law to compel someone to spend money on devices they would > >otherwise not purchase in order to read something they're entitled to > >read. An excellent example of this circumstance are Sec. 508 (and I > >daresay 504). When the government chooses to publish forms on the web, > >they are now required to be accessible forms. And, they must be accessible > >to a wider variety of individuals with a wider variety of technologies. > >They cannot, for example, say "Word is accessible, so we can publish > >Word," because it's arguably only accessible to those with that kind of > >technology. The public service must serve the greater public, not just > >that majority that may have chosen Word somehow. > > > > > > > > On > >Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Kirk Wood wrote: > > > > > I hope for the sake of blind people Janina speaks for herself and not the > > > AFB. Reality strike here. Many people use their computer for primarily > > > business reasons. And as such they are stuck with the arrogant rules of a > > > business. For some stupid reason us sighted folks prefer text that is > > > formatted. And no Janina, html and text don't give the level of formatting > > > that word does. Sorry, but does not computer. Will not compute. > > > > > > ======= > > > Kirk Wood > > > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net > > > > > > Nowlan's Theory: > > > He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from > > > the next freeway exit. > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Speakup mailing list > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > >-- > > > > Janina Sajka, Director > > Technology Research and Development > > Governmental Relations Group > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > > >Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > > >Chair, Accessibility SIG > >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > >http://www.openebook.org > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Speakup mailing list > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > -- Janina Sajka, Director Technology Research and Development Governmental Relations Group American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 Chair, Accessibility SIG Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) http://www.openebook.org ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Janina Sajka @ ` Amanda Lee 0 siblings, 0 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Amanda Lee @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Janina and all, There is an exception and that is if a Federal Employee is covered under a Union Bargaining Agreement as most Federal Employees are, then there is typically language within the Contract which provides for the accomodation of persons with disabilities. Federal Employees obviously are not under the ADA but I believe the Fair Labor Standards Act and other EEO regulations related to Federal Employees are also applicable. Yeah! I'm a lawyer wannabee ha! Amanda Lee On Mon, 14 Jan 2002, Janina Sajka wrote: > Charley: > > First of all, thanks for stating the employment situation from the > positive perspective. I think you and I said substantially the same thing, > though I said it more negatively. > > The issue of whether or not access can be limited to any particular type > of technology is, I think, at the core of the issue in the public domain. > Let me take it to 508 directly. My 508 analysis says two things: > > 1.) The goivernment, as the employer of persons with disabilities, can > mandate any technology it wishes to mandate, because it also has the power > and obligation to deliver that technology to the worker's desk, together > with training and support which understands and teaches how to use that > technology accessibly. Example? PDF maybe a pretty dumb file format, but > it's probably OK for the Feds to adopt PDF inhouse; > > 2.) Publishing to the public is a different matter entirely. The > government is obligated in its public information systems to serve the > public, broadly defined. It must, therefore, adopt generic technologies > which are most likely to serve the greatest number of users. This is its > fundamental obligation. It cannot, therefore, adopt technologies in its > public infrastructures which require proprietary technologies adopted by > some users, but not by others, as long as a significant minority exists. > It is probably this "significant minority" which determines the bounds of > this mandate, i.e. cp/m support can probably be ignored, but DOS users, > Mac users, and (increasingly) linux users, probably cannot be ignored. > Example: We may argue whether or not PDF is accessible with the recent > enhancements from Adobe and their incorporation by screen readers such as > JFW and WinEyes. In the public information sector this argument is > irrelevant. A significant number, possibly still even a majority, of the > public who are persons with disabilities do not have these technologies > and cannot be compelled to acquire them in order to obtain service from > the Federal government. Moreover, the government must design its public > information systems in such a manner as is most likely to serve all of > these users, and not just those who have laid out the greenbacks to > acquire and acquaint themselves with more recent versions of Windows and > one of the aforementioned Windows screen readers; > > Given that something like 90% of Federal IT spending (total of about $68 > Billion by 2006) is projected to be contracted out (today's Wall Street > Journal), we can expect to see this theory tested in the courts, imho. > > > > > On Mon, 14 Jan > 2002, Charles Crawford wrote: > > > Janina, > > > > I am not sure there is an entitlement to the processor or file of > > your choosing as much as there is an entitlement to accessibility. Your > > point on having to buy a new computer to access something does however > > modify the situation and I will have to think about that one. > > > > -- charlie Crawford. > > At 03:08 PM 1/13/02 -0500, you wrote: > > >Well, I believe you're wrong on both counts, in terms of what AFB supports > > >and in terms of what's good for blind people. > > > > > >Proprietary formats that work sometimes, and don't work often are not good > > >for blind people. For example, when it comes to inaccessible documents, > > >such as the forms mentioned in an earlier message, an accomondation can > > >reasonably be enforced under the ADA. I speak here of the most > > >restrictive circumstance such that of employment where, as you > > >pointed out, there are defined company standards. There are other > > >examples. > > > > > >You have, however, apparently narrowed the scope of this discussion to > > >file sharing within some kind of organizational entity--a company, a > > >school. The issue goes beyond that. > > > > > >When the situation is a proprietary format to someone outside of an > > >organizational entity, the entity is on even weaker ground. They have no > > >basis in law to compel someone to spend money on devices they would > > >otherwise not purchase in order to read something they're entitled to > > >read. An excellent example of this circumstance are Sec. 508 (and I > > >daresay 504). When the government chooses to publish forms on the web, > > >they are now required to be accessible forms. And, they must be accessible > > >to a wider variety of individuals with a wider variety of technologies. > > >They cannot, for example, say "Word is accessible, so we can publish > > >Word," because it's arguably only accessible to those with that kind of > > >technology. The public service must serve the greater public, not just > > >that majority that may have chosen Word somehow. > > > > > > > > > > > > On > > >Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Kirk Wood wrote: > > > > > > > I hope for the sake of blind people Janina speaks for herself and not the > > > > AFB. Reality strike here. Many people use their computer for primarily > > > > business reasons. And as such they are stuck with the arrogant rules of a > > > > business. For some stupid reason us sighted folks prefer text that is > > > > formatted. And no Janina, html and text don't give the level of formatting > > > > that word does. Sorry, but does not computer. Will not compute. > > > > > > > > ======= > > > > Kirk Wood > > > > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net > > > > > > > > Nowlan's Theory: > > > > He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from > > > > the next freeway exit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > >-- > > > > > > Janina Sajka, Director > > > Technology Research and Development > > > Governmental Relations Group > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > > > > >Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > > > > >Chair, Accessibility SIG > > >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > > >http://www.openebook.org > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >Speakup mailing list > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > -- > > Janina Sajka, Director > Technology Research and Development > Governmental Relations Group > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > Chair, Accessibility SIG > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > http://www.openebook.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Janina Sajka ` anti-word Amanda Lee @ ` Kirk Wood ` anti-word Janina Sajka ` anti-word Shaun Oliver ` anti-word Steve Holmes 3 siblings, 1 reply; 108+ messages in thread From: Kirk Wood @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Janina Sajka wrote: > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file > format as some kind of standard. While it may be arrogant, it is reality. The reality is that business documents are often in word format, and if they send you a document to edit in word format, they expect it back in the same format. I suppose it is arrogant, but then again companies have been arrogant for many years. They still have the gall to tell you what is acceptable to wear and expect you to schedule your life arround them. ======= Kirk Wood Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net Nowlan's Theory: He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from the next freeway exit. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Kirk Wood @ ` Janina Sajka ` anti-word Kirk Wood ` anti-word Thomas Ward 0 siblings, 2 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Janina Sajka @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Kirk, I don't give a damm if that's what they expect. From me, they don't get. Sometimes, this turns into an educational opportunity. Usually, I don't hear anything one way or the other. On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Kirk Wood wrote: > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Janina Sajka wrote: > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file > > format as some kind of standard. > > While it may be arrogant, it is reality. The reality is that business > documents are often in word format, and if they send you a document to > edit in word format, they expect it back in the same format. I suppose it > is arrogant, but then again companies have been arrogant for many > years. They still have the gall to tell you what is acceptable to wear and > expect you to schedule your life arround them. > > ======= > Kirk Wood > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net > > Nowlan's Theory: > He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from > the next freeway exit. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > -- Janina Sajka, Director Technology Research and Development Governmental Relations Group American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 Chair, Accessibility SIG Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) http://www.openebook.org ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Janina Sajka @ ` Kirk Wood ` anti-word Amanda Lee ` anti-word Thomas Ward 1 sibling, 1 reply; 108+ messages in thread From: Kirk Wood @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Janina Sajka wrote: > Kirk, I don't give a damm if that's what they expect. From me, they don't > get. > > Sometimes, this turns into an educational opportunity. Usually, I don't > hear anything one way or the other. It must be nice to *NOT* work for a real company. Janina, you proved my profound belief that you lack real world experiance. Most people would simply be unemployed taking that stance. ======= Kirk Wood Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net Nowlan's Theory: He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from the next freeway exit. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Kirk Wood @ ` Amanda Lee ` anti-word Gregory Nowak ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Amanda Lee @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Not really Greg, It is not acceptible to initiate personal attacks and we appreciate that. Having said that. I have been gainfully employed by the Private Sector/Verizon Communications for 10 years of my employed life and I have advocated for myself very effectively yet stood my ground. I've also worked nearly 9 years for Department of Treasury, Internal Revenue Service as a senior programmer analyst. I know for a fact! that advocating for what is in the best interest of my ability to perform my work effectively has enabled me rather than disabled me from the successes I have enjoyed. O'yeah, feathers get ruffled from time to time but that is just a part of life in general. One must stand his or her ground in order to overcome barriers and nobody said it's easy nor pleasant and especially that one is required to cave into what those who are otherwise clueless want to dictate. Maybe it's time to drop this thread though as we've gone beyond the topic of Speakup ha! Still the reason why the majority of us are here in the first place is simply because we know that Microsoft isn't the appropriate solution to Accessibility to persons who are blind or vision impaired. Amanda Lee ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirk Wood" <cpt.kirk@1tree.net> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 4:56 PM Subject: Re: anti-word > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Janina Sajka wrote: > > Kirk, I don't give a damm if that's what they expect. From me, they don't > > get. > > > > Sometimes, this turns into an educational opportunity. Usually, I don't > > hear anything one way or the other. > > It must be nice to *NOT* work for a real company. Janina, you proved my > profound belief that you lack real world experiance. Most people would > simply be unemployed taking that stance. > > ======= > Kirk Wood > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net > > Nowlan's Theory: > He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from > the next freeway exit. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Amanda Lee @ ` Gregory Nowak ` anti-word Amanda Lee ` anti-word Jason ` anti-word Charles Crawford 2 siblings, 1 reply; 108+ messages in thread From: Gregory Nowak @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Uhhhm, excuse me, but I didn't write the original message that you quoted after yours. Can we please get names straight if we're going to reply to a person's comments atack or otherwise directly? Greg On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 05:06:55PM -0500, Amanda Lee wrote: > Not really Greg, > It is not acceptible to initiate personal attacks and we appreciate that. > > Having said that. I have been gainfully employed by the Private > Sector/Verizon Communications for 10 years of my employed life and I have > advocated for myself very effectively yet stood my ground. I've also > worked nearly 9 years for Department of Treasury, Internal Revenue Service > as a senior programmer analyst. I know for a fact! that advocating for what > is in the best interest of my ability to perform my work effectively has > enabled me rather than disabled me from the successes I have enjoyed. > O'yeah, feathers get ruffled from time to time but that is just a part of > life in general. One must stand his or her ground in order to overcome > barriers and nobody said it's easy nor pleasant and especially that one is > required to cave into what those who are otherwise clueless want to dictate. > > Maybe it's time to drop this thread though as we've gone beyond the topic of > Speakup ha! Still the reason why the majority of us are here in the first > place is simply because we know that Microsoft isn't the appropriate > solution to Accessibility to persons who are blind or vision impaired. > > Amanda Lee > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kirk Wood" <cpt.kirk@1tree.net> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 4:56 PM > Subject: Re: anti-word > > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Janina Sajka wrote: > > > Kirk, I don't give a damm if that's what they expect. From me, they > don't > > > get. > > > > > > Sometimes, this turns into an educational opportunity. Usually, I don't > > > hear anything one way or the other. > > > > It must be nice to *NOT* work for a real company. Janina, you proved my > > profound belief that you lack real world experiance. Most people would > > simply be unemployed taking that stance. > > > > ======= > > Kirk Wood > > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net > > > > Nowlan's Theory: > > He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from > > the next freeway exit. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Gregory Nowak @ ` Amanda Lee 0 siblings, 0 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Amanda Lee @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup I'm sorry I meant to say Kirk Wood. Amana ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 5:55 PM Subject: Re: anti-word > Uhhhm, excuse me, but I didn't write the original message that you quoted after yours. Can we please get names straight if we're going to reply to a person's comments atack or otherwise directly? > Greg > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 05:06:55PM -0500, Amanda Lee wrote: > > Not really Greg, > > It is not acceptible to initiate personal attacks and we appreciate that. > > > > Having said that. I have been gainfully employed by the Private > > Sector/Verizon Communications for 10 years of my employed life and I have > > advocated for myself very effectively yet stood my ground. I've also > > worked nearly 9 years for Department of Treasury, Internal Revenue Service > > as a senior programmer analyst. I know for a fact! that advocating for what > > is in the best interest of my ability to perform my work effectively has > > enabled me rather than disabled me from the successes I have enjoyed. > > O'yeah, feathers get ruffled from time to time but that is just a part of > > life in general. One must stand his or her ground in order to overcome > > barriers and nobody said it's easy nor pleasant and especially that one is > > required to cave into what those who are otherwise clueless want to dictate. > > > > Maybe it's time to drop this thread though as we've gone beyond the topic of > > Speakup ha! Still the reason why the majority of us are here in the first > > place is simply because we know that Microsoft isn't the appropriate > > solution to Accessibility to persons who are blind or vision impaired. > > > > Amanda Lee > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Kirk Wood" <cpt.kirk@1tree.net> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> > > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 4:56 PM > > Subject: Re: anti-word > > > > > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Janina Sajka wrote: > > > > Kirk, I don't give a damm if that's what they expect. From me, they > > don't > > > > get. > > > > > > > > Sometimes, this turns into an educational opportunity. Usually, I don't > > > > hear anything one way or the other. > > > > > > It must be nice to *NOT* work for a real company. Janina, you proved my > > > profound belief that you lack real world experiance. Most people would > > > simply be unemployed taking that stance. > > > > > > ======= > > > Kirk Wood > > > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net > > > > > > Nowlan's Theory: > > > He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from > > > the next freeway exit. > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Speakup mailing list > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Amanda Lee ` anti-word Gregory Nowak @ ` Jason ` anti-word Amanda Lee ` anti-word Charles Crawford 2 siblings, 1 reply; 108+ messages in thread From: Jason @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup > Still the reason why the majority of us are here in the > first place is simply because we know that Microsoft isn't the appropriate > solution to Accessibility to persons who are blind or vision impaired. Heck, Microsoft isn't even an appropriate solution for those who aren't blind or vision impaired; Linux for those who know computers, Macs for those who don't. <ducks and runs for cover> (yes this was meant *only* for a good laugh) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Jason @ ` Amanda Lee ` anti-word Kirk Wood 0 siblings, 1 reply; 108+ messages in thread From: Amanda Lee @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Hahahahahahahah! agreed! wonder why Kirk Wood is even bothering to participate since he's been so brainwashed! Bigger certainly isn't better by any means! I'm tired of this thread! think I'll take-up Mandolin playing or something! it's more peaceful! Amanda Lee ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason" <unleet@qwest.net> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 6:01 PM Subject: Re: anti-word > > Still the reason why the majority of us are here in the > > first place is simply because we know that Microsoft isn't the appropriate > > solution to Accessibility to persons who are blind or vision impaired. > > Heck, Microsoft isn't even an appropriate solution for those who aren't blind > or vision impaired; Linux for those who know computers, Macs for those who > don't. > > <ducks and runs for cover> > > (yes this was meant *only* for a good laugh) > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Amanda Lee @ ` Kirk Wood ` anti-word Amanda Lee ` (3 more replies) 0 siblings, 4 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Kirk Wood @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote: > Hahahahahahahah! agreed! wonder why Kirk Wood is even bothering to > participate since he's been so brainwashed! Bigger certainly isn't better > by any means! Well, for someone stating personal attacks aren't appropriate you sure are good at it. First, at least I an spell my name correctly (Amana). Second, I don't feel word is better. It is used and many people have no choice in platforms at work. I use Linux at home and macroslop at work. Then again, I am sighted so perhaps not so damn bitter about corperate reality. The simple fact is that there aren't enough jobs in government (Amanda) and advocacy groups (Janina) to employ all the blind people. There are many people who are faced with harsh reality. A resume in Word format will get more attention then one in text format. And making the same thing in html takes way more skill then in word. Is it a good thing that word is so accepted? NO, it isn't. But it is reality. And when people stop being bitter and deal with reality they do better in life. I have tried for a year and a half to intorduce Linux as a server platform. But unfortunately, the choice hasn't been there. Because some people refuse to consider the costs my workplace is mired helplessly in macroslop. So I have two choices. I can be bitter and be left behind, or I can learn macroslop even if it is inferior. I think using linux at home is great. Using it when possible in the working world is even better. But going back to the original problem - not everyone has the nicity of refusing to deal with word files. ======= Kirk Wood Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net Nowlan's Theory: He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from the next freeway exit. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Kirk Wood @ ` Amanda Lee ` anti-word Janina Sajka ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 0 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Amanda Lee @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Hmmm Mr. Know it all Kirk! currious to me then why when I was job-searching in July that most online jobs resources specifically requested that resumes be sent via plain text only. This is simply because many utilize electronic retrieval systems to store, manage and to distribute resumes. Amanda Lee ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirk Wood" <cpt.kirk@1tree.net> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 7:36 PM Subject: Re: anti-word > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote: > > Hahahahahahahah! agreed! wonder why Kirk Wood is even bothering to > > participate since he's been so brainwashed! Bigger certainly isn't better > > by any means! > > Well, for someone stating personal attacks aren't appropriate you sure are > good at it. First, at least I an spell my name correctly (Amana). Second, > I don't feel word is better. It is used and many people have no choice in > platforms at work. I use Linux at home and macroslop at work. Then again, > I am sighted so perhaps not so damn bitter about corperate reality. > > The simple fact is that there aren't enough jobs in government > (Amanda) and advocacy groups (Janina) to employ all the blind > people. There are many people who are faced with harsh reality. A resume > in Word format will get more attention then one in text format. And making > the same thing in html takes way more skill then in word. > > Is it a good thing that word is so accepted? NO, it isn't. But it is > reality. And when people stop being bitter and deal with reality they do > better in life. > > I have tried for a year and a half to intorduce Linux as a server > platform. But unfortunately, the choice hasn't been there. Because some > people refuse to consider the costs my workplace is mired helplessly in > macroslop. So I have two choices. I can be bitter and be left behind, or I > can learn macroslop even if it is inferior. > > I think using linux at home is great. Using it when possible in the > working world is even better. But going back to the original problem - not > everyone has the nicity of refusing to deal with word files. > > ======= > Kirk Wood > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net > > Nowlan's Theory: > He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from > the next freeway exit. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Kirk Wood ` anti-word Amanda Lee @ ` Janina Sajka ` anti-word Kirk Wood ` anti-word Amanda Lee ` anti-word Gregory Nowak ` anti-word Thomas Ward 3 siblings, 2 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Janina Sajka @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Government? I thought she worked for one of those telco's? And, if my job isn't real, how come it pays in real money? Don't worry. I won't ask you to disclose your retirement. This isn't about whose XYZ is bigger. On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Kirk Wood wrote: > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote: > > Hahahahahahahah! agreed! wonder why Kirk Wood is even bothering to > > participate since he's been so brainwashed! Bigger certainly isn't better > > by any means! > > Well, for someone stating personal attacks aren't appropriate you sure are > good at it. First, at least I an spell my name correctly (Amana). Second, > I don't feel word is better. It is used and many people have no choice in > platforms at work. I use Linux at home and macroslop at work. Then again, > I am sighted so perhaps not so damn bitter about corperate reality. > > The simple fact is that there aren't enough jobs in government > (Amanda) and advocacy groups (Janina) to employ all the blind > people. There are many people who are faced with harsh reality. A resume > in Word format will get more attention then one in text format. And making > the same thing in html takes way more skill then in word. > > Is it a good thing that word is so accepted? NO, it isn't. But it is > reality. And when people stop being bitter and deal with reality they do > better in life. > > I have tried for a year and a half to intorduce Linux as a server > platform. But unfortunately, the choice hasn't been there. Because some > people refuse to consider the costs my workplace is mired helplessly in > macroslop. So I have two choices. I can be bitter and be left behind, or I > can learn macroslop even if it is inferior. > > I think using linux at home is great. Using it when possible in the > working world is even better. But going back to the original problem - not > everyone has the nicity of refusing to deal with word files. > > ======= > Kirk Wood > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net > > Nowlan's Theory: > He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from > the next freeway exit. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > -- Janina Sajka, Director Technology Research and Development Governmental Relations Group American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 Chair, Accessibility SIG Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) http://www.openebook.org ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Janina Sajka @ ` Kirk Wood ` anti-word Janina Sajka ` anti-word Amanda Lee ` anti-word Amanda Lee 1 sibling, 2 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Kirk Wood @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup I find it interesting that there has been so much focus on the inferiority of linux. The whole thread started because a list member needed access to word files. (Oh damn, there is that need to deal with the reality that many entities rely on the software.) Then there was a desire to make changes and convert back. Two individuals seem to think there is never a reason to go back to word. That is fine. But then the poor people who are stuck with the need are just that stuck. Now perhaps the thread can die. Obviously some will never accept that not everyone can just dismiss word as a format they may need. That is fine. ======= Kirk Wood Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net Nowlan's Theory: He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from the next freeway exit. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Kirk Wood @ ` Janina Sajka ` anti-word Amanda Lee 1 sibling, 0 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Janina Sajka @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Yes, it probably is time to drop the thread. But I can't let you suggest that an inability to produce a file to Microsoft's unpublished file format specifications demonstrates any kind of inferiority on the part of linux, because it doesn't. On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Kirk Wood wrote: > I find it interesting that there has been so much focus on the inferiority > of linux. The whole thread started because a list member needed access to > word files. (Oh damn, there is that need to deal with the reality that > many entities rely on the software.) Then there was a desire to make > changes and convert back. Two individuals seem to think there is never a > reason to go back to word. That is fine. But then the poor people who are > stuck with the need are just that stuck. > > Now perhaps the thread can die. Obviously some will never accept that not > everyone can just dismiss word as a format they may need. That is fine. > > ======= > Kirk Wood > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net > > Nowlan's Theory: > He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from > the next freeway exit. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > -- Janina Sajka, Director Technology Research and Development Governmental Relations Group American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 Chair, Accessibility SIG Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) http://www.openebook.org ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Kirk Wood ` anti-word Janina Sajka @ ` Amanda Lee 1 sibling, 0 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Amanda Lee @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup O'no! I sure as hell! will never "need" Word when there's a real wordprocessor like WordPerfect and I'll be certain there is. Amanda Lee ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirk Wood" <cpt.kirk@1tree.net> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 8:21 PM Subject: Re: anti-word > I find it interesting that there has been so much focus on the inferiority > of linux. The whole thread started because a list member needed access to > word files. (Oh damn, there is that need to deal with the reality that > many entities rely on the software.) Then there was a desire to make > changes and convert back. Two individuals seem to think there is never a > reason to go back to word. That is fine. But then the poor people who are > stuck with the need are just that stuck. > > Now perhaps the thread can die. Obviously some will never accept that not > everyone can just dismiss word as a format they may need. That is fine. > > ======= > Kirk Wood > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net > > Nowlan's Theory: > He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from > the next freeway exit. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Janina Sajka ` anti-word Kirk Wood @ ` Amanda Lee 1 sibling, 0 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Amanda Lee @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Hahahahahahahaha! well they are talking about putting all I.T. off shore by 2004 so I probably won't get to ever retire! or from Verizon. Yes I worked for the Federal Government for almost 9 years hahaha! that is why Section 508 is very close to my heart. I'm trying to find another position back in the Government to deal with Section 508 issues. I'll probably never retire from one organization but that is the way it is these days. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 8:03 PM Subject: Re: anti-word > Government? I thought she worked for one of those telco's? > > And, if my job isn't real, how come it pays in real money? > > Don't worry. I won't ask you to disclose your retirement. This isn't about > whose XYZ is bigger. > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Kirk Wood wrote: > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote: > > > Hahahahahahahah! agreed! wonder why Kirk Wood is even bothering to > > > participate since he's been so brainwashed! Bigger certainly isn't better > > > by any means! > > > > Well, for someone stating personal attacks aren't appropriate you sure are > > good at it. First, at least I an spell my name correctly (Amana). Second, > > I don't feel word is better. It is used and many people have no choice in > > platforms at work. I use Linux at home and macroslop at work. Then again, > > I am sighted so perhaps not so damn bitter about corperate reality. > > > > The simple fact is that there aren't enough jobs in government > > (Amanda) and advocacy groups (Janina) to employ all the blind > > people. There are many people who are faced with harsh reality. A resume > > in Word format will get more attention then one in text format. And making > > the same thing in html takes way more skill then in word. > > > > Is it a good thing that word is so accepted? NO, it isn't. But it is > > reality. And when people stop being bitter and deal with reality they do > > better in life. > > > > I have tried for a year and a half to intorduce Linux as a server > > platform. But unfortunately, the choice hasn't been there. Because some > > people refuse to consider the costs my workplace is mired helplessly in > > macroslop. So I have two choices. I can be bitter and be left behind, or I > > can learn macroslop even if it is inferior. > > > > I think using linux at home is great. Using it when possible in the > > working world is even better. But going back to the original problem - not > > everyone has the nicity of refusing to deal with word files. > > > > ======= > > Kirk Wood > > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net > > > > Nowlan's Theory: > > He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from > > the next freeway exit. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > -- > > Janina Sajka, Director > Technology Research and Development > Governmental Relations Group > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > Chair, Accessibility SIG > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > http://www.openebook.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Kirk Wood ` anti-word Amanda Lee ` anti-word Janina Sajka @ ` Gregory Nowak ` anti-word Thomas Ward 3 siblings, 0 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Gregory Nowak @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup I'm just cerious ... what is a sighted person doing on a speech program for linux list? Don't be offended Kirk W., I'm just wondering. Greg On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 06:36:55PM -0600, Kirk Wood wrote: > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote: > > Hahahahahahahah! agreed! wonder why Kirk Wood is even bothering to > > participate since he's been so brainwashed! Bigger certainly isn't better > > by any means! > > Well, for someone stating personal attacks aren't appropriate you sure are > good at it. First, at least I an spell my name correctly (Amana). Second, > I don't feel word is better. It is used and many people have no choice in > platforms at work. I use Linux at home and macroslop at work. Then again, > I am sighted so perhaps not so damn bitter about corperate reality. > > The simple fact is that there aren't enough jobs in government > (Amanda) and advocacy groups (Janina) to employ all the blind > people. There are many people who are faced with harsh reality. A resume > in Word format will get more attention then one in text format. And making > the same thing in html takes way more skill then in word. > > Is it a good thing that word is so accepted? NO, it isn't. But it is > reality. And when people stop being bitter and deal with reality they do > better in life. > > I have tried for a year and a half to intorduce Linux as a server > platform. But unfortunately, the choice hasn't been there. Because some > people refuse to consider the costs my workplace is mired helplessly in > macroslop. So I have two choices. I can be bitter and be left behind, or I > can learn macroslop even if it is inferior. > > I think using linux at home is great. Using it when possible in the > working world is even better. But going back to the original problem - not > everyone has the nicity of refusing to deal with word files. > > ======= > Kirk Wood > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net > > Nowlan's Theory: > He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from > the next freeway exit. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Kirk Wood ` (2 preceding siblings ...) ` anti-word Gregory Nowak @ ` Thomas Ward ` replacing m$ (was Re: anti-word) Kirk Wood 3 siblings, 1 reply; 108+ messages in thread From: Thomas Ward @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Well, I am seeing a trend. Linux is becoming slightly more popular, and my Uncle's company is looking at Star Office to replace MS Office. The hold up? Well, the company wants to be able to move all there Office 2000 files to and from Star Office. Of course I mentioned Wordperfect 2000 for Linux which might help his company solve this issue. Most people I know write their resumes out in html, and it has been well recieved. Probably because with html you can get really specific and nice looking formatting. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirk Wood <cpt.kirk@1tree.net> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 7:36 PM Subject: Re: anti-word > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote: > > Hahahahahahahah! agreed! wonder why Kirk Wood is even bothering to > > participate since he's been so brainwashed! Bigger certainly isn't better > > by any means! > > Well, for someone stating personal attacks aren't appropriate you sure are > good at it. First, at least I an spell my name correctly (Amana). Second, > I don't feel word is better. It is used and many people have no choice in > platforms at work. I use Linux at home and macroslop at work. Then again, > I am sighted so perhaps not so damn bitter about corperate reality. > > The simple fact is that there aren't enough jobs in government > (Amanda) and advocacy groups (Janina) to employ all the blind > people. There are many people who are faced with harsh reality. A resume > in Word format will get more attention then one in text format. And making > the same thing in html takes way more skill then in word. > > Is it a good thing that word is so accepted? NO, it isn't. But it is > reality. And when people stop being bitter and deal with reality they do > better in life. > > I have tried for a year and a half to intorduce Linux as a server > platform. But unfortunately, the choice hasn't been there. Because some > people refuse to consider the costs my workplace is mired helplessly in > macroslop. So I have two choices. I can be bitter and be left behind, or I > can learn macroslop even if it is inferior. > > I think using linux at home is great. Using it when possible in the > working world is even better. But going back to the original problem - not > everyone has the nicity of refusing to deal with word files. > > ======= > Kirk Wood > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net > > Nowlan's Theory: > He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from > the next freeway exit. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* replacing m$ (was Re: anti-word) ` anti-word Thomas Ward @ ` Kirk Wood 0 siblings, 0 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Kirk Wood @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup On Mon, 14 Jan 2002, Thomas Ward wrote: > Well, I am seeing a trend. Linux is becoming slightly more popular, and my > Uncle's company is looking at Star Office to replace MS Office. The hold up? > Well, the company wants to be able to move all there Office 2000 files to > and from Star Office. Actually, this is a good time to point out what the new "features" of office 2000 are. The only real one noticed by most is that the documents when placed on a m$ server easily become web pages and improved look of exported docs to web pages when not using m$ servers. This is the only "improvement" for the suite. Now to look at the cost: All office 2000 programs take longer to load. They take more disk space on the drive. Their documents take more disk space (as much as 40% more). The solution is simply to back pedal to office 97. Then they can start the process of leaving office all together if they choose. They can use Star Office in a winblows environment seamlessly. They can also seemlessly use WordPerfect across the platforms. Actually, they can use even most office 2000 docs without trouble. Outside of stuffing extra stuff into the docs for web translation office 2000 is supposed to be backward compatible. The database program is not however. ======= Kirk Wood Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net Nowlan's Theory: He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from the next freeway exit. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Amanda Lee ` anti-word Gregory Nowak ` anti-word Jason @ ` Charles Crawford 2 siblings, 0 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Charles Crawford @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Amanda, I agree with you. Thanks for saying it so well. I knew there was something I liked alot in you. Smile. -- charlie Crawforrd. At 05:06 PM 1/13/02 -0500, you wrote: >Not really Greg, > It is not acceptible to initiate personal attacks and we appreciate that. > >Having said that. I have been gainfully employed by the Private >Sector/Verizon Communications for 10 years of my employed life and I have >advocated for myself very effectively yet stood my ground. I've also >worked nearly 9 years for Department of Treasury, Internal Revenue Service >as a senior programmer analyst. I know for a fact! that advocating for what >is in the best interest of my ability to perform my work effectively has >enabled me rather than disabled me from the successes I have enjoyed. >O'yeah, feathers get ruffled from time to time but that is just a part of >life in general. One must stand his or her ground in order to overcome >barriers and nobody said it's easy nor pleasant and especially that one is >required to cave into what those who are otherwise clueless want to dictate. > >Maybe it's time to drop this thread though as we've gone beyond the topic of >Speakup ha! Still the reason why the majority of us are here in the first >place is simply because we know that Microsoft isn't the appropriate >solution to Accessibility to persons who are blind or vision impaired. > >Amanda Lee > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Kirk Wood" <cpt.kirk@1tree.net> >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 4:56 PM >Subject: Re: anti-word > > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Janina Sajka wrote: > > > Kirk, I don't give a damm if that's what they expect. From me, they >don't > > > get. > > > > > > Sometimes, this turns into an educational opportunity. Usually, I don't > > > hear anything one way or the other. > > > > It must be nice to *NOT* work for a real company. Janina, you proved my > > profound belief that you lack real world experiance. Most people would > > simply be unemployed taking that stance. > > > > ======= > > Kirk Wood > > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net > > > > Nowlan's Theory: > > He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from > > the next freeway exit. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Speakup mailing list >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Janina Sajka ` anti-word Kirk Wood @ ` Thomas Ward ` anti-word Kirk Wood 1 sibling, 1 reply; 108+ messages in thread From: Thomas Ward @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Hi, well an attitude like that it's a wonder you haven't been fired. Most colleges or employers tell me they want it a certain way, and I do it. What does shoving Linux down the throat of every uneducated person do besides make them angry? Face the facts they don't know any different. All the business/college world cares about is if it works. It comes down to they tell you what to do, and you tell them what to do. Eventually it is a fight, and someone gets the screws. Isn't there anyone on this list with any sense of acomidation? That can do what is needed to get the job done without making every uneducated user of Microslop out to be morons when they have their own reasons? ----- Original Message ----- From: Janina Sajka <janina@afb.net> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 2:51 PM Subject: Re: anti-word > Kirk, I don't give a damm if that's what they expect. From me, they don't > get. > > Sometimes, this turns into an educational opportunity. Usually, I don't > hear anything one way or the other. > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Kirk Wood wrote: > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Janina Sajka wrote: > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file > > > format as some kind of standard. > > > > While it may be arrogant, it is reality. The reality is that business > > documents are often in word format, and if they send you a document to > > edit in word format, they expect it back in the same format. I suppose it > > is arrogant, but then again companies have been arrogant for many > > years. They still have the gall to tell you what is acceptable to wear and > > expect you to schedule your life arround them. > > > > ======= > > Kirk Wood > > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net > > > > Nowlan's Theory: > > He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from > > the next freeway exit. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > -- > > Janina Sajka, Director > Technology Research and Development > Governmental Relations Group > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > Chair, Accessibility SIG > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > http://www.openebook.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Thomas Ward @ ` Kirk Wood 0 siblings, 0 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Kirk Wood @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup On Mon, 14 Jan 2002, Thomas Ward wrote: > Hi, well an attitude like that it's a wonder you haven't been fired. Most > colleges or employers tell me they want it a certain way, and I do it. This is (and has been) my one point in the whole argument. Some people don't have the luxery of telling others that the directions don't apply to them. And further, I have seen colege classes that now want papers turned in as a Word file. Is forcing you to do it this what what I see as right? NO. Is it reality? YES. ======= Kirk Wood Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net Nowlan's Theory: He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from the next freeway exit. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Janina Sajka ` anti-word Amanda Lee ` anti-word Kirk Wood @ ` Shaun Oliver ` anti-word Buddy Brannan ` anti-word Gregory Nowak ` anti-word Steve Holmes 3 siblings, 2 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Shaun Oliver @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Janina Sajka wrote: > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote: > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing, I'm > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word format > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such. Some of this whole > > anti Word sounds arogant to me. > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file > format as some kind of standard. > Well, like it or not, this is the standard we need to either abide by or change. Right at the moment all I'm seeing is a whole lot of bitching about ms word and such. to revisit Kirk w's post a few days ago, we need to take into account that microsoft word is the enforced some would say prefered word processor that is widely used in the workplace today. We need to be mindful of this when we decide not to give a fuck about formatting and presentation. I've had it pointed out to me in no uncertain terms that this is the way things are. so let's just stop fucking around with bitching and either do something about it or fucking well live with it!! I don't like microsoft any more than alot of you do but like it or not, it's here and we have to deal with it. if microsoft on the other hand were to get things right in the first place and not be so kind as to stoop to exploitative and scare tactics etc, we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion. I'm sorry for my use of colourful metafores but that's just how ai see the whole thing. > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > -- Shaun Oliver Marriage is a three ring circus: engagement ring, wedding ring, and suffering. -- Roger Price Email: shauno@goanna.net.au Icq: 76958435 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Shaun Oliver @ ` Buddy Brannan ` anti-word Gregory Nowak 1 sibling, 0 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Buddy Brannan @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Heh. Since Windows just opens something according to its file extension, why not just write something up in HTML and call it foo.doc? Who'd know the difference (as someone else said)? -- Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV/2 | I choose you to take up all of my time. Email: davros@ycardz.com | I choose you because you're funny and kind | I want easy people from now on. | --the Nields ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Shaun Oliver ` anti-word Buddy Brannan @ ` Gregory Nowak ` anti-word Shaun Oliver 1 sibling, 1 reply; 108+ messages in thread From: Gregory Nowak @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Shaun, how do we change the defacto file format then from ms-word to something else? Start a "drop ms-word" campign maybe? Of course, such a thing would require finances as well. Greg On Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 09:00:12PM +1100, Shaun Oliver wrote: > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Janina Sajka wrote: > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote: > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing, I'm > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word format > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such. Some of this whole > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me. > > > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file > > format as some kind of standard. > > > Well, like it or not, this is the standard we need to either abide by or > change. Right at the moment all I'm seeing is a whole lot of bitching > about ms word and such. > to revisit Kirk w's post a few days ago, we need to take into account that > microsoft word is the enforced some would say prefered word processor that > is widely used in the workplace today. > We need to be mindful of this when we decide not to give a fuck about > formatting and presentation. > I've had it pointed out to me in no uncertain terms that this is the way > things are. > so let's just stop fucking around with bitching and either do something > about it or fucking well live with it!! > I don't like microsoft any more than alot of you do but like it or not, > it's here and we have to deal with it. > if microsoft on the other hand were to get things right in the first place > and not be so kind as to stoop to exploitative and scare tactics etc, we > probably wouldn't even be having this discussion. > I'm sorry for my use of colourful metafores but that's just how ai see the > whole thing. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > -- > Shaun Oliver > > Marriage is a three ring circus: > engagement ring, wedding ring, and suffering. > -- Roger Price > > Email: shauno@goanna.net.au > Icq: 76958435 > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Gregory Nowak @ ` Shaun Oliver ` anti-word Steve Holmes 0 siblings, 1 reply; 108+ messages in thread From: Shaun Oliver @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup; +Cc: samhowe ok for starters, yes it'll take finance and some smart people who know some code to maybe rewrite the standard. it'll also take alot of voices to at least get ourselves and others like us heard. Let me be honest with you all. This is not going to happen just like that it'll take alot of balls to do it but it can be done. However, if some of you feel so strongly about not using word or whatever, just don't use it. I don't see what all the fuss is about. it's farely simple to me. teach them to adapt it for you or bloody well do it yourself. and if you have to occasionally use windows to edit a ms word doc and retain all the formatting attributes etc, then so be it. don't be on here bitching about it and what all else, do something about it!! I don't care what, just let's us all get off our collective arses and stop whining! This is nonproductive and isn't helping anyone. Let's just for now get on with it and when the opportunity arrises, make the appropriate noise. On Mon, 14 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > Shaun, how do we change the defacto file format then from ms-word to something else? Start a "drop ms-word" campign maybe? Of course, such a thing would require finances as well. > Greg > > > On Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 09:00:12PM +1100, Shaun Oliver wrote: > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Janina Sajka wrote: > > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote: > > > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing, I'm > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word format > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such. Some of this whole > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me. > > > > > > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file > > > format as some kind of standard. > > > > > Well, like it or not, this is the standard we need to either abide by or > > change. Right at the moment all I'm seeing is a whole lot of bitching > > about ms word and such. > > to revisit Kirk w's post a few days ago, we need to take into account that > > microsoft word is the enforced some would say prefered word processor that > > is widely used in the workplace today. > > We need to be mindful of this when we decide not to give a fuck about > > formatting and presentation. > > I've had it pointed out to me in no uncertain terms that this is the way > > things are. > > so let's just stop fucking around with bitching and either do something > > about it or fucking well live with it!! > > I don't like microsoft any more than alot of you do but like it or not, > > it's here and we have to deal with it. > > if microsoft on the other hand were to get things right in the first place > > and not be so kind as to stoop to exploitative and scare tactics etc, we > > probably wouldn't even be having this discussion. > > I'm sorry for my use of colourful metafores but that's just how ai see the > > whole thing. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > -- > > Shaun Oliver > > > > Marriage is a three ring circus: > > engagement ring, wedding ring, and suffering. > > -- Roger Price > > > > Email: shauno@goanna.net.au > > Icq: 76958435 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > -- Shaun Oliver Marriage is a three ring circus: engagement ring, wedding ring, and suffering. -- Roger Price Email: shauno@goanna.net.au Icq: 76958435 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Shaun Oliver @ ` Steve Holmes 0 siblings, 0 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Steve Holmes @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Reality wise, that is a good point. After reading this avelanche of venting yesterday, I found that it comes down to a couple points. In the immediate or short term, it may well be easier to just pop into a windows environment and use the "other guys' stuff" and get the job done. In a long term, one could go out and try to build interest and support to move to a new platform and standard. Yes, I am versed in windows and can use window-eyes as good as any of them. But I do realize that may not speak for others who have not. I think versitility is the name of the game to survive in the world of accessability. I hate proprietory formats as much as any of them. That's why I stress some form of compatibility is so important. Hence, we have programs like anti-word. Micky Soft is never gona give out the format description for Word documents but apparently, anti-word is one way to atleast decode them into other formats at our wish. The venting was probably good short term therapy for us all but let's see what we can do to promote linux as an overall platform and how it can eventually out do windows. All that probably belongs in comp.linux.advocacy perhaps but we can use this list to pump up speakup, help other blind people come into the new fold and get them going and help them share in the excitement of using an alternative operating system and all its power! I for one have been quite pleased to see the growing number of newbies coming into the list, presumably to explore alternative solutions for accessing their computers. "Come on down! the water's fine!" On Tue, 15 Jan 2002, Shaun Oliver wrote: > ok for starters, > yes it'll take finance and some smart people who know some code to maybe > rewrite the standard. > it'll also take alot of voices to at least get ourselves and others like > us heard. > Let me be honest with you all. This is not going to happen just like that > it'll take alot of balls to do it but it can be done. > However, if some of you feel so strongly about not using word or whatever, > just don't use it. I don't see what all the fuss is about. > it's farely simple to me. teach them to adapt it for you or bloody well do > it yourself. > and if you have to occasionally use windows to edit a ms word doc and > retain all the formatting attributes etc, then so be it. > don't be on here bitching about it and what all else, do something about > it!! > I don't care what, just let's us all get off our collective arses and stop > whining! This is nonproductive and isn't helping anyone. > Let's just for now get on with it and when the opportunity arrises, make > the appropriate noise. > > On Mon, 14 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > Shaun, how do we change the defacto file format then from ms-word to something else? Start a "drop ms-word" campign maybe? Of course, such a thing would require finances as well. > > Greg > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 09:00:12PM +1100, Shaun Oliver wrote: > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Janina Sajka wrote: > > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote: > > > > > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing, I'm > > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word format > > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such. Some of this whole > > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I > > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I > > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file > > > > format as some kind of standard. > > > > > > > Well, like it or not, this is the standard we need to either abide by or > > > change. Right at the moment all I'm seeing is a whole lot of bitching > > > about ms word and such. > > > to revisit Kirk w's post a few days ago, we need to take into account that > > > microsoft word is the enforced some would say prefered word processor that > > > is widely used in the workplace today. > > > We need to be mindful of this when we decide not to give a fuck about > > > formatting and presentation. > > > I've had it pointed out to me in no uncertain terms that this is the way > > > things are. > > > so let's just stop fucking around with bitching and either do something > > > about it or fucking well live with it!! > > > I don't like microsoft any more than alot of you do but like it or not, > > > it's here and we have to deal with it. > > > if microsoft on the other hand were to get things right in the first place > > > and not be so kind as to stoop to exploitative and scare tactics etc, we > > > probably wouldn't even be having this discussion. > > > I'm sorry for my use of colourful metafores but that's just how ai see the > > > whole thing. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Shaun Oliver > > > > > > Marriage is a three ring circus: > > > engagement ring, wedding ring, and suffering. > > > -- Roger Price > > > > > > Email: shauno@goanna.net.au > > > Icq: 76958435 > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Speakup mailing list > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word ` anti-word Janina Sajka ` (2 preceding siblings ...) ` anti-word Shaun Oliver @ ` Steve Holmes 3 siblings, 0 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Steve Holmes @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup I agree; I was just thinking in terms of someone updating the document and returning it in the same format as originally sent. This could especially be the case if say, several people might be sharing a document. A common format should be agreed upon. Yes, I wish at that point the "agreed upon" standard format would be something more universal than MS Word. It's pretty sick how big always seems to win the common "standard" game. While I am thinking about it, I do recall a while back sending people a resume formatted using Word perfect and how many times they couldn't import it into Word or whatever and how we ended up on settling the matter by sending it in text format instead. I recall some other parties requesting the thing in text strait away to avoid such compatibility problems. On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Janina Sajka wrote: > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote: > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing, I'm > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word format > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such. Some of this whole > > anti Word sounds arogant to me. > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file > format as some kind of standard. > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: anti-word anti-word Gregory Nowak ` anti-word Dave Hunt @ ` Thomas Ward 1 sibling, 0 replies; 108+ messages in thread From: Thomas Ward @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Hi, Tucows.com Linux section has it. Antiword is a MS Word file viewer not a wordprocessor. However, it is nice if you need to look into a Word document from Linux. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gregory Nowak <gnowak1@uic.edu> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 8:43 PM Subject: anti-word > Hi all, > > Kirk W mentioned anti-word in a reply. I searched freshmeat, but couldn't find it. Where do I get anti-word from? Can it write as well as read word files? Thanks. > Greg > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
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