anti-word

anti-word

[Gregory Nowak]

Hi all,

Kirk W mentioned anti-word in a reply. I searched freshmeat, but couldn't find it. Where do I get anti-word from? Can it write as well as read word files? Thanks.
Greg

Re: anti-word

[Dave Hunt]

It's called "antiword", and should be on freshmeat.net.  It cannot write 
MS Word files.

-Dave

Re: anti-word

[Thomas Ward]

Hi, Tucows.com Linux section has it. Antiword is a MS Word file viewer not a
wordprocessor.
However, it is nice if you need to look into a Word document from Linux.


----- Original Message -----
From: Gregory Nowak <gnowak1@uic.edu>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 8:43 PM
Subject: anti-word


> Hi all,
>
> Kirk W mentioned anti-word in a reply. I searched freshmeat, but couldn't
find it. Where do I get anti-word from? Can it write as well as read word
files? Thanks.
> Greg
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: anti-word

[Janina Sajka]

On Wed, 9 Jan 2002, Dave Hunt wrote:

> ... It's called "antiword", ...   It
> cannot write MS Word files.

It isn't necessary to write MS-Word, it's only necessary to read it 
correctly. Users of Word can read text or HTML perfectly well.


> 
> -Dave
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: anti-word

[Gregory Nowak]

Why do you say it isn't necessary to write word documents when that format is being used widely in the work place and academic settings today?
Greg


On Thu, Jan 10, 2002 at 09:47:31AM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Jan 2002, Dave Hunt wrote:
> 
> > ... It's called "antiword", ...   It
> > cannot write MS Word files.
> 
> It isn't necessary to write MS-Word, it's only necessary to read it 
> correctly. Users of Word can read text or HTML perfectly well.
> 
> 
> > 
> > -Dave
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> -- 
> 	
> 				Janina Sajka, Director
> 				Technology Research and Development
> 				Governmental Relations Group
> 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: anti-word

[Janina Sajka]

Because everyone sitting in Word can perfectly easily retrieve a .txt or 
.html without knowing they did it.

On Thu, 10 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:

> Why do you say it isn't necessary to write word documents when that format is being used widely in the work place and academic settings today?
> Greg
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jan 10, 2002 at 09:47:31AM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > On Wed, 9 Jan 2002, Dave Hunt wrote:
> > 
> > > ... It's called "antiword", ...   It
> > > cannot write MS Word files.
> > 
> > It isn't necessary to write MS-Word, it's only necessary to read it 
> > correctly. Users of Word can read text or HTML perfectly well.
> > 
> > 
> > > 
> > > -Dave
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > 	
> > 				Janina Sajka, Director
> > 				Technology Research and Development
> > 				Governmental Relations Group
> > 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > 
> > Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > 
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

ms-word, was: Re: anti-word

[Gregory Nowak]

Ok, but people also write in word in addition to reading in it when they're in windows.
Greg


On Thu, Jan 10, 2002 at 04:27:55PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> Because everyone sitting in Word can perfectly easily retrieve a .txt or 
> .html without knowing they did it.
> 
> On Thu, 10 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> 
> > Why do you say it isn't necessary to write word documents when that format is being used widely in the work place and academic settings today?
> > Greg
> > 
> > 
> > On Thu, Jan 10, 2002 at 09:47:31AM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > On Wed, 9 Jan 2002, Dave Hunt wrote:
> > > 
> > > > ... It's called "antiword", ...   It
> > > > cannot write MS Word files.
> > > 
> > > It isn't necessary to write MS-Word, it's only necessary to read it 
> > > correctly. Users of Word can read text or HTML perfectly well.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > -Dave
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > 	
> > > 				Janina Sajka, Director
> > > 				Technology Research and Development
> > > 				Governmental Relations Group
> > > 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > 
> > > Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > 
> > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > http://www.openebook.org
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> -- 
> 	
> 				Janina Sajka, Director
> 				Technology Research and Development
> 				Governmental Relations Group
> 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: ms-word, was: Re: anti-word

[Janina Sajka]

On Thu, 10 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:

> Ok, but people also write in word in addition to reading in it when they're in windows.

Greg: We're going in circles here. You need something like wv in order to 
read those Word files that people send out. You don't need to send them 
Word files in order for them to read what you write in plain text or in 
html, because they can perfectly well read your text or html using their 
Word application on Windows.

Do you see the circle?
 > Greg > > 
> On Thu, Jan 10, 2002 at 04:27:55PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > Because everyone sitting in Word can perfectly easily retrieve a .txt or 
> > .html without knowing they did it.
> > 
> > On Thu, 10 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > 
> > > Why do you say it isn't necessary to write word documents when that format is being used widely in the work place and academic settings today?
> > > Greg
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Thu, Jan 10, 2002 at 09:47:31AM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > > On Wed, 9 Jan 2002, Dave Hunt wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > ... It's called "antiword", ...   It
> > > > > cannot write MS Word files.
> > > > 
> > > > It isn't necessary to write MS-Word, it's only necessary to read it 
> > > > correctly. Users of Word can read text or HTML perfectly well.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > -Dave
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > -- 
> > > > 	
> > > > 				Janina Sajka, Director
> > > > 				Technology Research and Development
> > > > 				Governmental Relations Group
> > > > 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > > 
> > > > Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > > 
> > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > > http://www.openebook.org
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > 	
> > 				Janina Sajka, Director
> > 				Technology Research and Development
> > 				Governmental Relations Group
> > 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > 
> > Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > 
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: ms-word, was: Re: anti-word

[Amanda Lee]

Word Files, as is the case with anything in Windows, are unnecessarily
full of overhead just to convey text.  I like to use Notepad a lot for
various tasks and it is much faster than Word or even Wordpad which will
read Word6 format.  So why create extra unnecessary overhead in the first
place.  If you need to enhance a document with special fonts, formatting,
etc., then fine but most times, Word is a huge hog.

Amanda Lee
Alexandria, VA

Re: ms-word, was: Re: anti-word

[Gregory Nowak]

I see the circle, I just wanted to play a little devil's advocate to see what your answer would be out of interest. Sorry if it annoyed you. Btw, what is wv?
Greg


On Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 11:26:44AM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> 
> > Ok, but people also write in word in addition to reading in it when they're in windows.
> 
> Greg: We're going in circles here. You need something like wv in order to 
> read those Word files that people send out. You don't need to send them 
> Word files in order for them to read what you write in plain text or in 
> html, because they can perfectly well read your text or html using their 
> Word application on Windows.
> 
> Do you see the circle?
>  > Greg > > 
> > On Thu, Jan 10, 2002 at 04:27:55PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > Because everyone sitting in Word can perfectly easily retrieve a .txt or 
> > > .html without knowing they did it.
> > > 
> > > On Thu, 10 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Why do you say it isn't necessary to write word documents when that format is being used widely in the work place and academic settings today?
> > > > Greg
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > On Thu, Jan 10, 2002 at 09:47:31AM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > > > On Wed, 9 Jan 2002, Dave Hunt wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > ... It's called "antiword", ...   It
> > > > > > cannot write MS Word files.
> > > > > 
> > > > > It isn't necessary to write MS-Word, it's only necessary to read it 
> > > > > correctly. Users of Word can read text or HTML perfectly well.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > -Dave
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > -- 
> > > > > 	
> > > > > 				Janina Sajka, Director
> > > > > 				Technology Research and Development
> > > > > 				Governmental Relations Group
> > > > > 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > > > 
> > > > > Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > > > 
> > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > > > http://www.openebook.org
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > 	
> > > 				Janina Sajka, Director
> > > 				Technology Research and Development
> > > 				Governmental Relations Group
> > > 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > 
> > > Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > 
> > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > http://www.openebook.org
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> -- 
> 	
> 				Janina Sajka, Director
> 				Technology Research and Development
> 				Governmental Relations Group
> 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: ms-word, was: Re: anti-word

[Gregory Nowak]

The instances I'm thinking of actually involve formatting. I use the bns for most of my word processing, and I find myself using it's extensive formatting features a lot.
Greg


On Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 11:56:05AM -0500, Amanda Lee wrote:
> Word Files, as is the case with anything in Windows, are unnecessarily
> full of overhead just to convey text.  I like to use Notepad a lot for
> various tasks and it is much faster than Word or even Wordpad which will
> read Word6 format.  So why create extra unnecessary overhead in the first
> place.  If you need to enhance a document with special fonts, formatting,
> etc., then fine but most times, Word is a huge hog.
> 
> Amanda Lee
> Alexandria, VA
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: ms-word, was: Re: anti-word

[Janina Sajka]

wv used to be known as word view. It is believed that Microsoft objected 
to that.

It's at http://wvware.org
and it's gpl.

No problem. 


-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: ms-word, was: Re: anti-word

[Janina Sajka]

On Fri, 11 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:

> The instances I'm thinking of actually involve formatting. I use the bns for most of my word processing, and I find myself using it's extensive formatting features a lot.
> > If you need to enhance a document with special fonts, formatting,
> > etc., then fine but most times, Word is a huge hog.

You can also use html for this. It has wonderful tags such as <center> 
<strong> <emphasis> (which is not the same), etc. And, it lets you link 
other documents and other locations in the same document.

Having said all this, I should point out that this same topic has cropped
up on blinux in the last 24 hours. An interesting tool was suggested there
called "Almost Free Text." Find it at:


http://www.maplefish.com/todd/aft.html

Re: anti-word

[Amanda Lee]

Because Word is designed for idiots!

Couldn't resist that one!

Amanda Lee

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 4:27 PM
Subject: Re: anti-word


> Because everyone sitting in Word can perfectly easily retrieve a .txt or
> .html without knowing they did it.
>
> On Thu, 10 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
>
> > Why do you say it isn't necessary to write word documents when that
format is being used widely in the work place and academic settings today?
> > Greg
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 10, 2002 at 09:47:31AM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > On Wed, 9 Jan 2002, Dave Hunt wrote:
> > >
> > > > ... It's called "antiword", ...   It
> > > > cannot write MS Word files.
> > >
> > > It isn't necessary to write MS-Word, it's only necessary to read it
> > > correctly. Users of Word can read text or HTML perfectly well.
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > -Dave
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > Technology Research and Development
> > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > >
> > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > >
> > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > http://www.openebook.org
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: anti-word

[Gregory Nowak]

Yeah, I'll agree with that too. But then, isn't most or all of windblows (grin)?
Greg


On Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 07:06:32PM -0500, Amanda Lee wrote:
> Because Word is designed for idiots!
> 
> Couldn't resist that one!
> 
> Amanda Lee
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 4:27 PM
> Subject: Re: anti-word
> 
> 
> > Because everyone sitting in Word can perfectly easily retrieve a .txt or
> > .html without knowing they did it.
> >
> > On Thu, 10 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> >
> > > Why do you say it isn't necessary to write word documents when that
> format is being used widely in the work place and academic settings today?
> > > Greg
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jan 10, 2002 at 09:47:31AM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > > On Wed, 9 Jan 2002, Dave Hunt wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > ... It's called "antiword", ...   It
> > > > > cannot write MS Word files.
> > > >
> > > > It isn't necessary to write MS-Word, it's only necessary to read it
> > > > correctly. Users of Word can read text or HTML perfectly well.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -Dave
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > > Technology Research and Development
> > > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > >
> > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > >
> > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > > http://www.openebook.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Janina Sajka, Director
> > Technology Research and Development
> > Governmental Relations Group
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: anti-word

[Kirk Wood]

On Fri, 11 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:
> Because Word is designed for idiots!

I guess all sighted people are idiots. Sorry, but that kind of crap is
just plain crap. Yes, word is bloated and adds an incredible amount of
stuff. Particularly in the latest incarnations. But it is also clear to me
that many here neither understand the sighted world, nor care to at
all. That is your right. But don't wine to me when you get left back in
the corner next time.

Yes, HTML will give pretty decent formatting. It is a good tool for
generalized text. But it doesn't support the righ formating of a good word
processor. And formatting is important to the sighted world. You don't
need to understand it. But you should accept it and deal with it.

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.

Re: anti-word

[Amanda Lee]

Actually Kirk, I live and function quite nicely in"the sighted World" I use
these lousy tools but Word is not a very well-designed wordprocessor.
WordPerfect, although it doesn't do html and some of the other features of
Word and other more presentation-oriented wordprocessing applications, Word
is a very poor product and it is because of MacroSlop's ongoing lack of care
about the quality of their products.  Throw it out to the Idiots and they
will suck it up!

The power users I know of and yes there are many who are sighted power users
actually use and prefer the keyboard and actually prefer and use something
other than Word when given the opportunity.

I suppose I could ahve been politically correct and stated:

Word is for the masses.

But it bothers me a great deal that MacroSlop is so wrought with arrogance
and is more interested in being in one's face with a bunch of flashy krap
than to present, even to the masses, a quality product as have other vendors
of software applications.


Amanda Lee
Alexandria, VA

Re: anti-word

[Buddy Brannan]

Greets from da big apple,

Gotta agree with Amanda on this one. Seems to me Word is too full of
crap to actually be useful. And that's all I've got to say about that.
-- 
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV    | I choose you to take up all of my time.
Email: davros@ycardz.com | I choose you because you're funny and kind
                         | I want easy people from now on.
                         | --the Nields

Re: anti-word

[Kirk Wood]

Word is indeed written for the masses. That is the funy thing about a
sales driven economy. Most things are for the masses. Guess what? The
music on the radio is for the masses as well. The shows on TV are for the
masses. The appliances in the stores are for the masses.

M$ has indeed stuffed their latest versions of word with a bunch of
stuffing. I personally use word97 and refuse to upgrade. I have word 2000
and don't use it. It only bloats the files. I happen to disagree with your
assesment of word 95 and 97. I think they are great products. But once m$
got it right, they had to do something to make the next sale. And m$ is
built on a false economy. The company will fold if they don't continue to
make upgrades. And to sell the upgrades they will add features that are
quite asanine.

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.

Re: anti-word

[Steve Holmes]

Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing, I'm
sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word format
along with the built-in formatting, styles and such.  Some of this whole
anti Word sounds arogant to me.

Actually, there are some things in Word an idiot wouldn't know how to use
such as the VB macros and such.

What we need is a tool that can create word documents that can run from
linux and be used with Speakup.  After all, that is what this list is
about:).

On Fri, 11 Jan 2002, Kirk Wood wrote:

> On Fri, 11 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:
> > Because Word is designed for idiots!
>
> I guess all sighted people are idiots. Sorry, but that kind of crap is
> just plain crap. Yes, word is bloated and adds an incredible amount of
> stuff. Particularly in the latest incarnations. But it is also clear to me
> that many here neither understand the sighted world, nor care to at
> all. That is your right. But don't wine to me when you get left back in
> the corner next time.
>
> Yes, HTML will give pretty decent formatting. It is a good tool for
> generalized text. But it doesn't support the righ formating of a good word
> processor. And formatting is important to the sighted world. You don't
> need to understand it. But you should accept it and deal with it.
>
> =======
> Kirk Wood
> Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
>
> Nowlan's Theory:
>         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
>         the next freeway exit.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: ms-word, was: Re: anti-word

[Steve Holmes]

If it is a circle, it is a vicious one. It's one thing to update the
original document and work it as a text doc in your favorite unix editor
but doing this destroys all formatting and styles originnaly placed with
the word processor, hence we need a word compatible word processor for
linuw.

On Fri, 11 Jan 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:

> On Thu, 10 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
>
> > Ok, but people also write in word in addition to reading in it when they're in windows.
>
> Greg: We're going in circles here. You need something like wv in order to
> read those Word files that people send out. You don't need to send them
> Word files in order for them to read what you write in plain text or in
> html, because they can perfectly well read your text or html using their
> Word application on Windows.
>
> Do you see the circle?
>  > Greg > >
> > On Thu, Jan 10, 2002 at 04:27:55PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > Because everyone sitting in Word can perfectly easily retrieve a .txt or
> > > .html without knowing they did it.
> > >
> > > On Thu, 10 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > >
> > > > Why do you say it isn't necessary to write word documents when that format is being used widely in the work place and academic settings today?
> > > > Greg
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Jan 10, 2002 at 09:47:31AM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > > > On Wed, 9 Jan 2002, Dave Hunt wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > ... It's called "antiword", ...   It
> > > > > > cannot write MS Word files.
> > > > >
> > > > > It isn't necessary to write MS-Word, it's only necessary to read it
> > > > > correctly. Users of Word can read text or HTML perfectly well.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -Dave
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > >
> > > > > 				Janina Sajka, Director
> > > > > 				Technology Research and Development
> > > > > 				Governmental Relations Group
> > > > > 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > > >
> > > > > Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > > >
> > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > > > http://www.openebook.org
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > 				Janina Sajka, Director
> > > 				Technology Research and Development
> > > 				Governmental Relations Group
> > > 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > >
> > > Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > >
> > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > http://www.openebook.org
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>

Re: anti-word

[Yvonne Smith]

Good grief, a text mode word clone? The amount of work involved in
that would be out of this world. I think our only hope here, people,
is to hope the eventual speech access to gnome will give us access to
some of the word processors in Linux that save in word format. None of
them are perfect, but I think an xwindows screen reader would be a lot more
productive than trying to write such a beast. 
And no, this is not a prelude to the "we don't need xwindows" rant
that I just know someone is going to reply to this with. I'm with you
on this, ok? I might not use speakup much, being a primarily emacspeak
user <no, *that* isn't worth going on a rant about either, I learnt
emacspeak first and only use speakup occasionally when necessary,
personal preference>. Basically I'm much happier in a console or in
emacs myself. All I'm saying is that, I can't imagine too many people
other than us would have a huge amount of use for a word processor
like that. I seem to have vague memories of a console version of word
perfect existing at one point, if you bought the commercial version
but don't quote me on it. I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist now in any
case. What I'm trying to say is, right now, we just have to live with
what we've got. If we want to do more than read word documents, we've
got to run windows until someone writes a screen reader that'll let us
use star office or something of the sort. If we want to use
javascript, we've got to use windows until someone writes a screen
reader that'll let us use netscape or Galion or something. I know, I
know, it's harsh, but most sighted people aren't going to write these
for us in console mode. They can already use all this stuff in x, and
open source, like it or not, usually involves people writing what they
personally have a use for. If none of us can or have the time to write
this stuff ourselves, most likely it isn't going to get done.

I know, this is harsh, and is probably going to result in me being
flamed off the list, since I'm not a regular contributor, or a regular
user of speakup, but while I'm here, I thought I'd say it. The same
thing applies to kirk, and whoever else writes speakup. They'll write
what they need first, and afterwards what other people want if they
have the time and feel it's worth it. To get better service than that,
you've either got to get involved in a project that more closely
mirrors what you need in a program, learn to program yourself and
write it yourself, or live with the decisions that the programmers
make. That's just the way it is in the open source world, I'm
afraid. As someone who doesn't know, and probably never will know c or
c++, I'm in the same position as most of you. We can make suggestions,
we can make bug reports, and we can help new users with what we know
and they don't yet, to pay for what they give us, but that's about
it. 
As it is, at least with speakup or emacspeak or something like that,
we can talk to the developers. It isn't going to cost us thousands of
dollars for access to what software's available and what we get might
more closely resemble what we want, rather than what primarily sighted
developers think we want. 

and finally, just to end this rant and reply to another thread,
hardware vs software synthe. again, software speech is something we're
all just going to have to live with. I prefer hardware speech myself,
but I'm not using it much right now. I'm moving around all the time,
often have limited space for things, and I just don't want to fuss
with the cables and junk that the hardware synthe brings. Not only
that, the amount a hardware synthe costs can put it out of reach for a
lot of people. Not to mention, using a laptop with a hardware speech
synthe can be a *major* pain in the neck, as a lot of you can
testify. It's not something to get into a religious war about. When
Tuxtalk is eventually written, those people who don't have a hardware
synthe, for whatever reason, will just have to live with the fact that
they won't be able to see the early bootup messages. 95% of times,
that doesn't matter at all. And in my case, I'll probably end up using
both, depending on which is more practical, so if I really get into
trouble, I can plug the hardware synthe in and figure out why it is
that my linux kernel has suddenly decided not to talk to me. But you
aren't going to lose what speakup can currently give you. If you're
still using hardware for speech, you'll still get the same output as
speakup has always given you, and people who can't or don't want to
use a hardware synthe will have access to the linux console, at least,
which'll probably bring more blind people into linux, which is a good
thing by anyones standards.

Now I'm out of here before I rant any more, and going to duck into my
flameproof bunker for a while.

Re: anti-word

[Thomas Ward]

Rest assured Sun Micro is working on making Star Office 6 accessible with
Gnopernicus. How accessible it will be in the end is open to debate until it
shows up.
Coming up with a shell based wordprocessor would be dificult and time
consuming, and in the end Gnome 2.0 will be out before any of us could
complete a vary good release.

----- Original Message -----
From: Yvonne Smith <yvonne@thewatch.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 1:46 AM
Subject: Re: anti-word


> Good grief, a text mode word clone? The amount of work involved in
> that would be out of this world. I think our only hope here, people,
> is to hope the eventual speech access to gnome will give us access to
> some of the word processors in Linux that save in word format. None of
> them are perfect, but I think an xwindows screen reader would be a lot
more
> productive than trying to write such a beast.
> And no, this is not a prelude to the "we don't need xwindows" rant
> that I just know someone is going to reply to this with. I'm with you
> on this, ok? I might not use speakup much, being a primarily emacspeak
> user <no, *that* isn't worth going on a rant about either, I learnt
> emacspeak first and only use speakup occasionally when necessary,
> personal preference>. Basically I'm much happier in a console or in
> emacs myself. All I'm saying is that, I can't imagine too many people
> other than us would have a huge amount of use for a word processor
> like that. I seem to have vague memories of a console version of word
> perfect existing at one point, if you bought the commercial version
> but don't quote me on it. I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist now in any
> case. What I'm trying to say is, right now, we just have to live with
> what we've got. If we want to do more than read word documents, we've
> got to run windows until someone writes a screen reader that'll let us
> use star office or something of the sort. If we want to use
> javascript, we've got to use windows until someone writes a screen
> reader that'll let us use netscape or Galion or something. I know, I
> know, it's harsh, but most sighted people aren't going to write these
> for us in console mode. They can already use all this stuff in x, and
> open source, like it or not, usually involves people writing what they
> personally have a use for. If none of us can or have the time to write
> this stuff ourselves, most likely it isn't going to get done.
>
> I know, this is harsh, and is probably going to result in me being
> flamed off the list, since I'm not a regular contributor, or a regular
> user of speakup, but while I'm here, I thought I'd say it. The same
> thing applies to kirk, and whoever else writes speakup. They'll write
> what they need first, and afterwards what other people want if they
> have the time and feel it's worth it. To get better service than that,
> you've either got to get involved in a project that more closely
> mirrors what you need in a program, learn to program yourself and
> write it yourself, or live with the decisions that the programmers
> make. That's just the way it is in the open source world, I'm
> afraid. As someone who doesn't know, and probably never will know c or
> c++, I'm in the same position as most of you. We can make suggestions,
> we can make bug reports, and we can help new users with what we know
> and they don't yet, to pay for what they give us, but that's about
> it.
> As it is, at least with speakup or emacspeak or something like that,
> we can talk to the developers. It isn't going to cost us thousands of
> dollars for access to what software's available and what we get might
> more closely resemble what we want, rather than what primarily sighted
> developers think we want.
>
> and finally, just to end this rant and reply to another thread,
> hardware vs software synthe. again, software speech is something we're
> all just going to have to live with. I prefer hardware speech myself,
> but I'm not using it much right now. I'm moving around all the time,
> often have limited space for things, and I just don't want to fuss
> with the cables and junk that the hardware synthe brings. Not only
> that, the amount a hardware synthe costs can put it out of reach for a
> lot of people. Not to mention, using a laptop with a hardware speech
> synthe can be a *major* pain in the neck, as a lot of you can
> testify. It's not something to get into a religious war about. When
> Tuxtalk is eventually written, those people who don't have a hardware
> synthe, for whatever reason, will just have to live with the fact that
> they won't be able to see the early bootup messages. 95% of times,
> that doesn't matter at all. And in my case, I'll probably end up using
> both, depending on which is more practical, so if I really get into
> trouble, I can plug the hardware synthe in and figure out why it is
> that my linux kernel has suddenly decided not to talk to me. But you
> aren't going to lose what speakup can currently give you. If you're
> still using hardware for speech, you'll still get the same output as
> speakup has always given you, and people who can't or don't want to
> use a hardware synthe will have access to the linux console, at least,
> which'll probably bring more blind people into linux, which is a good
> thing by anyones standards.
>
> Now I'm out of here before I rant any more, and going to duck into my
> flameproof bunker for a while.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: anti-word

[Janina Sajka]

On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:

> Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing, I'm
> sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word format
> along with the built-in formatting, styles and such.  Some of this whole
> anti Word sounds arogant to me.


I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I 
regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I 
further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file 
format as some kind of standard.

Re: anti-word

[Amanda Lee]

Amen! to that Janina!

Amanda


----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM
Subject: Re: anti-word


> On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
>
> > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing,
I'm
> > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word
format
> > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such.  Some of this whole
> > anti Word sounds arogant to me.
>
>
> I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I
> regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I
> further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file
> format as some kind of standard.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: ms-word, was: Re: anti-word

[Janina Sajka]

On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:

> If it is a circle, it is a vicious one. It's one thing to update the
> original document and work it as a text doc in your favorite unix editor
> but doing this destroys all formatting and styles originnaly placed with
> the word processor, hence we need a word compatible word processor for
> linuw.

Sorry, you are wrong. First of all, it is unusual to get a word processed 
document properly formatted. Most often their creators create some 
semblance of formatting by assuming that pushing text around the screen, a 
little left, a little right, a little up and a little down by whatever 
means constitutes appropriate formatting. It doesnt, but the explanations 
are lengthy. So, I'll drop that and assume, for the purpose of my reply, 
that they've formatted correctly.

So, if the document is correctly formatted, it will correctly translate 
into another formatting schema, provided the document formatting usage is 
published. One simply maps one to the other, and formatting is preserved, 
to be edited by the next person, and so on. Recall that html is but one 
way to keep organizational formatting intact. Unfortunately, Microsoft 
doesn't release it's specs for Word, so the best we can do is reverse 
engineer. Therefore, if it doesn't translate well, the sender gets what 
they deserve, the fruits of their arrogance.

Please note that Word arrogance extends well beyond their proprietary .doc 
file format. The html generated by Word is attrocious, for example. And 
Microsoft's attempts to redefine high ASCII values, and muck with 
consensus character sets is, to my mind, the height of arrogance.

I do not regard it my duty to protect such people from the consequences of 
their own folly. 
 > > On 
Fri, 11 Jan 
2002, Janina Sajka wrote: > > > On Thu, 10 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> >
> > > Ok, but people also write in word in addition to reading in it when they're in windows.
> >
> > Greg: We're going in circles here. You need something like wv in order to
> > read those Word files that people send out. You don't need to send them
> > Word files in order for them to read what you write in plain text or in
> > html, because they can perfectly well read your text or html using their
> > Word application on Windows.
> >
> > Do you see the circle?
> >  > Greg > >
> > > On Thu, Jan 10, 2002 at 04:27:55PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > > Because everyone sitting in Word can perfectly easily retrieve a .txt or
> > > > .html without knowing they did it.
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, 10 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Why do you say it isn't necessary to write word documents when that format is being used widely in the work place and academic settings today?
> > > > > Greg
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Jan 10, 2002 at 09:47:31AM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > > > > On Wed, 9 Jan 2002, Dave Hunt wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > ... It's called "antiword", ...   It
> > > > > > > cannot write MS Word files.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It isn't necessary to write MS-Word, it's only necessary to read it
> > > > > > correctly. Users of Word can read text or HTML perfectly well.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -Dave
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 				Janina Sajka, Director
> > > > > > 				Technology Research and Development
> > > > > > 				Governmental Relations Group
> > > > > > 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > > > > http://www.openebook.org
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > 				Janina Sajka, Director
> > > > 				Technology Research and Development
> > > > 				Governmental Relations Group
> > > > 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > >
> > > > Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > >
> > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > > http://www.openebook.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: anti-word

[Gregory Nowak]

And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if all they know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off?
Greg


On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote:
> Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers,
> 
>          Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging on planet 
> Linux.  It is correct to point out that in the ideal there should not be a 
> word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all know, the 
> sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see the world in 
> the same way.  Don't you just hate it when that happens.  Smile.
> 
>          I guess my view is that if word users want to communicate with 
> those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the realities of 
> other computer platforms.  Consumer choice still has it's place!
> 
> -- Charlie Crawford.
> 
> 
> 
> At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> >Amen! to that Janina!
> >
> >Amanda
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM
> >Subject: Re: anti-word
> >
> >
> > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
> > >
> > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing,
> >I'm
> > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word
> >format
> > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such.  Some of this whole
> > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me.
> > >
> > >
> > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I
> > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I
> > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file
> > > format as some kind of standard.
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: anti-word

[Charles Crawford]

Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers,

         Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging on planet 
Linux.  It is correct to point out that in the ideal there should not be a 
word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all know, the 
sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see the world in 
the same way.  Don't you just hate it when that happens.  Smile.

         I guess my view is that if word users want to communicate with 
those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the realities of 
other computer platforms.  Consumer choice still has it's place!

-- Charlie Crawford.



At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Amen! to that Janina!
>
>Amanda
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
>To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM
>Subject: Re: anti-word
>
>
> > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
> >
> > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing,
>I'm
> > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word
>format
> > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such.  Some of this whole
> > > anti Word sounds arogant to me.
> >
> >
> > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I
> > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I
> > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file
> > format as some kind of standard.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: anti-word

[Janina Sajka]

Charley:

I'm all for consumer choice. That's why I like linux. And I admit that for 
whatever reasons most users choose Microsoft. And, I admit that, since I'm 
in the minoirity, I'm the one who must adapt somehow.

What I cannot accept, however, is an attitude that says my choice should 
be entirely invisible to the majority. My choice is also my perogative. 
And, if the majority wishes to cede its freedoms to some corporation, that 
is their perogative as well. But, they cannot expect me to pretend like I 
do that too. I have no interest in being, or pretending to be, a slave.


On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Charles Crawford wrote:

> Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers,
> 
>          Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging on planet 
> Linux.  It is correct to point out that in the ideal there should not be a 
> word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all know, the 
> sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see the world in 
> the same way.  Don't you just hate it when that happens.  Smile.
> 
>          I guess my view is that if word users want to communicate with 
> those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the realities of 
> other computer platforms.  Consumer choice still has it's place!
> 
> -- Charlie Crawford.
> 
> 
> 
> At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> >Amen! to that Janina!
> >
> >Amanda
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM
> >Subject: Re: anti-word
> >
> >
> > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
> > >
> > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing,
> >I'm
> > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word
> >format
> > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such.  Some of this whole
> > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me.
> > >
> > >
> > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I
> > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I
> > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file
> > > format as some kind of standard.
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: anti-word

[Janina Sajka]

Gregory, I keep telling you this answer, but there's some part of it that 
you seem to still miss. What part is that?

They don't need to know a damm thing to retrieve either a text doc (no 
formatting), or an html doc (much formatting).

They need know nothing special in order to do that. Do you understand this 
yet?

On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:

> And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if all they know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off?
> Greg
> 
> 
> On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote:
> > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers,
> > 
> >          Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging on planet 
> > Linux.  It is correct to point out that in the ideal there should not be a 
> > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all know, the 
> > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see the world in 
> > the same way.  Don't you just hate it when that happens.  Smile.
> > 
> >          I guess my view is that if word users want to communicate with 
> > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the realities of 
> > other computer platforms.  Consumer choice still has it's place!
> > 
> > -- Charlie Crawford.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > >Amen! to that Janina!
> > >
> > >Amanda
> > >
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM
> > >Subject: Re: anti-word
> > >
> > >
> > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing,
> > >I'm
> > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word
> > >format
> > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such.  Some of this whole
> > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I
> > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I
> > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file
> > > > format as some kind of standard.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Speakup mailing list
> > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: anti-word

[Amanda Lee]

They'd rather you:

"don't ask/don't tell!"

they simply do not care.  A pc is a tool to the masses and nothing more and
they don't want to be troubled with the minutia of technical information.
They want to push a button and see their results.

I'd personally like to do the same thing if I knew that my outcome is the
same but it doesn't work that way when we aren't able to use our
technologies to track in the same
manner as able-sighted persons.  I have received more than one form
developed in Word and it is the most hosed up piece o'junk! I've never
received a Word Form which I can reliably fillout and, unless I used a
Braille display, there was no way to determine where the data was being
entered.


I do not subscribe to the notion that just because a person who is blind can
marginally interact with an application in Windows, that he or she must do
so to conform with what those who are clueless about how we function in the
first place.   If you can perform a task in Linux or  DOS more effectively,
provided the outcome is the same, why spend more time doing it in Windows
merely for the sake of conformity.  Performance is key not conformity
because in this day and age, we are expected to accomplish more in less
time.

Amanda Lee




----- Original Message -----
From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 12:14 PM
Subject: Re: anti-word


> And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if all they
know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off?
> Greg
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote:
> > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers,
> >
> >          Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging on planet
> > Linux.  It is correct to point out that in the ideal there should not be
a
> > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all know, the
> > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see the world
in
> > the same way.  Don't you just hate it when that happens.  Smile.
> >
> >          I guess my view is that if word users want to communicate with
> > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the realities of
> > other computer platforms.  Consumer choice still has it's place!
> >
> > -- Charlie Crawford.
> >
> >
> >
> > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > >Amen! to that Janina!
> > >
> > >Amanda
> > >
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM
> > >Subject: Re: anti-word
> > >
> > >
> > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and
editing,
> > >I'm
> > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in
Word
> > >format
> > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such.  Some of this
whole
> > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word.
I
> > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I
> > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus,
file
> > > > format as some kind of standard.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Speakup mailing list
> > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: anti-word

[Gregory Nowak]

Yes, I do. However, you seem to be missing the point I'm trying to get across here. So, let me give you an example.
A professor of mine was handing out something that he had written for the class. Since I knew that he had written it by himself recently, I asked if he could e-mail me a plain text file instead, so I wouldn't need to mess with scannning the handout. His answer to me was: "you mean a word document?" I said "no, I mean a .txt file, a plain ASCII text file." He was still confused, so I said, "like the files that you create with notepad." He said "oh, ok."

My point is as it was before. If all they know about their computer is how to turn it on and off, then how are they supposed to know about other platforms if they don't even know for sure what a text file?

If some of you on this list want to blame the ignorant professor, then maybe you should blame universities, employers, and the way we learn and work today. Universities and employers are the ones today who tell you they want your papers in 12 point font, and formatted this way or that. Now, how are we supposed to achieve that in something like notepad/emacs/pico? And if someone else is wondering how the hell this guy became a professor without knowing crap about what kinds of files he could produce on his computer, then that is a new question to examine the answer to.
Greg


On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:29:50PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> Gregory, I keep telling you this answer, but there's some part of it that 
> you seem to still miss. What part is that?
> 
> They don't need to know a damm thing to retrieve either a text doc (no 
> formatting), or an html doc (much formatting).
> 
> They need know nothing special in order to do that. Do you understand this 
> yet?
> 
> On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> 
> > And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if all they know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off?
> > Greg
> > 
> > 
> > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote:
> > > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers,
> > > 
> > >          Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging on planet 
> > > Linux.  It is correct to point out that in the ideal there should not be a 
> > > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all know, the 
> > > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see the world in 
> > > the same way.  Don't you just hate it when that happens.  Smile.
> > > 
> > >          I guess my view is that if word users want to communicate with 
> > > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the realities of 
> > > other computer platforms.  Consumer choice still has it's place!
> > > 
> > > -- Charlie Crawford.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > > >Amen! to that Janina!
> > > >
> > > >Amanda
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM
> > > >Subject: Re: anti-word
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing,
> > > >I'm
> > > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word
> > > >format
> > > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such.  Some of this whole
> > > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I
> > > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I
> > > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file
> > > > > format as some kind of standard.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >_______________________________________________
> > > >Speakup mailing list
> > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> -- 
> 	
> 				Janina Sajka, Director
> 				Technology Research and Development
> 				Governmental Relations Group
> 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: anti-word

[Gregory Nowak]

Amanda, exactly, exactly, exactly.
Greg


On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:43:23PM -0500, Amanda Lee wrote:
> They'd rather you:
> 
> "don't ask/don't tell!"
> 
> they simply do not care.  A pc is a tool to the masses and nothing more and
> they don't want to be troubled with the minutia of technical information.
> They want to push a button and see their results.
> 
> I'd personally like to do the same thing if I knew that my outcome is the
> same but it doesn't work that way when we aren't able to use our
> technologies to track in the same
> manner as able-sighted persons.  I have received more than one form
> developed in Word and it is the most hosed up piece o'junk! I've never
> received a Word Form which I can reliably fillout and, unless I used a
> Braille display, there was no way to determine where the data was being
> entered.
> 
> 
> I do not subscribe to the notion that just because a person who is blind can
> marginally interact with an application in Windows, that he or she must do
> so to conform with what those who are clueless about how we function in the
> first place.   If you can perform a task in Linux or  DOS more effectively,
> provided the outcome is the same, why spend more time doing it in Windows
> merely for the sake of conformity.  Performance is key not conformity
> because in this day and age, we are expected to accomplish more in less
> time.
> 
> Amanda Lee
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 12:14 PM
> Subject: Re: anti-word
> 
> 
> > And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if all they
> know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off?
> > Greg
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote:
> > > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers,
> > >
> > >          Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging on planet
> > > Linux.  It is correct to point out that in the ideal there should not be
> a
> > > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all know, the
> > > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see the world
> in
> > > the same way.  Don't you just hate it when that happens.  Smile.
> > >
> > >          I guess my view is that if word users want to communicate with
> > > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the realities of
> > > other computer platforms.  Consumer choice still has it's place!
> > >
> > > -- Charlie Crawford.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > > >Amen! to that Janina!
> > > >
> > > >Amanda
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM
> > > >Subject: Re: anti-word
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and
> editing,
> > > >I'm
> > > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in
> Word
> > > >format
> > > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such.  Some of this
> whole
> > > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word.
> I
> > > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I
> > > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus,
> file
> > > > > format as some kind of standard.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >_______________________________________________
> > > >Speakup mailing list
> > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: anti-word

[Kirk Wood]

On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
> I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I 
> regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I 
> further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file 
> format as some kind of standard.

While it may be arrogant, it is reality. The reality is that business
documents are often in word format, and if they send you a document to
edit in word format, they expect it back in the same format. I suppose it
is arrogant, but then again companies have been arrogant for many
years. They still have the gall to tell you what is acceptable to wear and
expect you to schedule your life arround them.

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.

Re: anti-word

[Kirk Wood]

I hope for the sake of blind people Janina speaks for herself and not the
AFB. Reality strike here. Many people use their computer for primarily
business reasons. And as such they are stuck with the arrogant rules of a
business. For some stupid reason us sighted folks prefer text that is
formatted. And no Janina, html and text don't give the level of formatting
that word does. Sorry, but does not computer. Will not compute.

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.

Re: anti-word

[Amanda Lee]

You are correct.  However, all that you needed to do was to point out to
your professor that he could easily use "Save As" from the pulldown menu and
save his documents for mailing to you in text.  I frequenlty do this when I
receive Word documents as I will today for two courses I'm taking this week
on Networks and Advanced TCP/IP.  These I will download to my notetaker as
they are smaller and there is a book reader function in my notetaker and so
I can read these files while I'm in the taxi going to work or whatever.

I agree that the Universities are at the root of much of this but ...  they
really don't need to know nor do anything other than press the right buttons
and click on the desired choice.

Amanda Lee

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 1:24 PM
Subject: Re: anti-word


> Yes, I do. However, you seem to be missing the point I'm trying to get
across here. So, let me give you an example.
> A professor of mine was handing out something that he had written for the
class. Since I knew that he had written it by himself recently, I asked if
he could e-mail me a plain text file instead, so I wouldn't need to mess
with scannning the handout. His answer to me was: "you mean a word
document?" I said "no, I mean a .txt file, a plain ASCII text file." He was
still confused, so I said, "like the files that you create with notepad." He
said "oh, ok."
>
> My point is as it was before. If all they know about their computer is how
to turn it on and off, then how are they supposed to know about other
platforms if they don't even know for sure what a text file?
>
> If some of you on this list want to blame the ignorant professor, then
maybe you should blame universities, employers, and the way we learn and
work today. Universities and employers are the ones today who tell you they
want your papers in 12 point font, and formatted this way or that. Now, how
are we supposed to achieve that in something like notepad/emacs/pico? And if
someone else is wondering how the hell this guy became a professor without
knowing crap about what kinds of files he could produce on his computer,
then that is a new question to examine the answer to.
> Greg
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:29:50PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > Gregory, I keep telling you this answer, but there's some part of it
that
> > you seem to still miss. What part is that?
> >
> > They don't need to know a damm thing to retrieve either a text doc (no
> > formatting), or an html doc (much formatting).
> >
> > They need know nothing special in order to do that. Do you understand
this
> > yet?
> >
> > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> >
> > > And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if all
they know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off?
> > > Greg
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote:
> > > > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers,
> > > >
> > > >          Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging on
planet
> > > > Linux.  It is correct to point out that in the ideal there should
not be a
> > > > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all know,
the
> > > > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see the
world in
> > > > the same way.  Don't you just hate it when that happens.  Smile.
> > > >
> > > >          I guess my view is that if word users want to communicate
with
> > > > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the realities
of
> > > > other computer platforms.  Consumer choice still has it's place!
> > > >
> > > > -- Charlie Crawford.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > > > >Amen! to that Janina!
> > > > >
> > > > >Amanda
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM
> > > > >Subject: Re: anti-word
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and
editing,
> > > > >I'm
> > > > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in
Word
> > > > >format
> > > > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such.  Some of
this whole
> > > > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads
Word. I
> > > > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to
Microsoft. I
> > > > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary,
non-consensus, file
> > > > > > format as some kind of standard.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >_______________________________________________
> > > > >Speakup mailing list
> > > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Janina Sajka, Director
> > Technology Research and Development
> > Governmental Relations Group
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: anti-word

[Jason]

hmmm.... when you add cascading style sheets to the HTML format, I'd say it's 
almost as good as Word's formatting.... besides I've seen some HTML that's 
better formatted than any word document.

Granted, HTML isn't exactly geared toward being printed, but it would only 
take a few modifications to make it so.

(Anybody remember Word Perfect for DOS? It would let you veiw the formatting 
codes in the document and delete stupid mistakes like the bold tag that 
reversed the emphasis in your whole document... well HTML can do that too, 
Word can't)

On Sunday January 13, 2002 11:49 am, you wrote:
> I hope for the sake of blind people Janina speaks for herself and not the
> AFB. Reality strike here. Many people use their computer for primarily
> business reasons. And as such they are stuck with the arrogant rules of a
> business. For some stupid reason us sighted folks prefer text that is
> formatted. And no Janina, html and text don't give the level of formatting
> that word does. Sorry, but does not computer. Will not compute.
>

Re: anti-word

[Amanda Lee]

Yes I do and still use WP5 when I want to do any reliable document
formatting.  I will burn my WP5 master diskettes onto CDs and keep those in
a very safe place!

Amanda Lee

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jason" <unleet@qwest.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: anti-word


> hmmm.... when you add cascading style sheets to the HTML format, I'd say
it's
> almost as good as Word's formatting.... besides I've seen some HTML that's
> better formatted than any word document.
>
> Granted, HTML isn't exactly geared toward being printed, but it would only
> take a few modifications to make it so.
>
> (Anybody remember Word Perfect for DOS? It would let you veiw the
formatting
> codes in the document and delete stupid mistakes like the bold tag that
> reversed the emphasis in your whole document... well HTML can do that too,
> Word can't)
>
> On Sunday January 13, 2002 11:49 am, you wrote:
> > I hope for the sake of blind people Janina speaks for herself and not
the
> > AFB. Reality strike here. Many people use their computer for primarily
> > business reasons. And as such they are stuck with the arrogant rules of
a
> > business. For some stupid reason us sighted folks prefer text that is
> > formatted. And no Janina, html and text don't give the level of
formatting
> > that word does. Sorry, but does not computer. Will not compute.
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: anti-word

[Janina Sajka]

Greg, I run into this all the time. Since I'm the minority--the non-word 
user--I take it upon myself to translate the contents into something I can 
read, and usually don't bother the sendor about it unless they send me 
something that just doesn't translate well. That's my usual approach.

If, the document in question is meant for publication as opposed to 
something that passes between two or three people, then it's a very 
different story. Then they don't get to be ignorant in my view. But, as I 
said, that's another story. I didn't think we were talking about 
publication.

 On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:

> Yes, I do. However, you seem to be missing the point I'm trying to get across here. So, let me give you an example.
> A professor of mine was handing out something that he had written for the class. Since I knew that he had written it by himself recently, I asked if he could e-mail me a plain text file instead, so I wouldn't need to mess with scannning the handout. His answer to me was: "you mean a word document?" I said "no, I mean a .txt file, a plain ASCII text file." He was still confused, so I said, "like the files that you create with notepad." He said "oh, ok."
> 
> My point is as it was before. If all they know about their computer is how to turn it on and off, then how are they supposed to know about other platforms if they don't even know for sure what a text file?
> 
> If some of you on this list want to blame the ignorant professor, then maybe you should blame universities, employers, and the way we learn and work today. Universities and employers are the ones today who tell you they want your papers in 12 point font, and formatted this way or that. Now, how are we supposed to achieve that in something like notepad/emacs/pico? And if someone else is wondering how the hell this guy became a professor without knowing crap about what kinds of files he could produce on his computer, then that is a new question to examine the answer to.
> Greg
> 
> 
> On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:29:50PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > Gregory, I keep telling you this answer, but there's some part of it that 
> > you seem to still miss. What part is that?
> > 
> > They don't need to know a damm thing to retrieve either a text doc (no 
> > formatting), or an html doc (much formatting).
> > 
> > They need know nothing special in order to do that. Do you understand this 
> > yet?
> > 
> > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > 
> > > And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if all they know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off?
> > > Greg
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote:
> > > > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers,
> > > > 
> > > >          Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging on planet 
> > > > Linux.  It is correct to point out that in the ideal there should not be a 
> > > > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all know, the 
> > > > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see the world in 
> > > > the same way.  Don't you just hate it when that happens.  Smile.
> > > > 
> > > >          I guess my view is that if word users want to communicate with 
> > > > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the realities of 
> > > > other computer platforms.  Consumer choice still has it's place!
> > > > 
> > > > -- Charlie Crawford.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > > > >Amen! to that Janina!
> > > > >
> > > > >Amanda
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM
> > > > >Subject: Re: anti-word
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing,
> > > > >I'm
> > > > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word
> > > > >format
> > > > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such.  Some of this whole
> > > > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I
> > > > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I
> > > > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file
> > > > > > format as some kind of standard.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >_______________________________________________
> > > > >Speakup mailing list
> > > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > 	
> > 				Janina Sajka, Director
> > 				Technology Research and Development
> > 				Governmental Relations Group
> > 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > 
> > Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > 
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: anti-word

[Janina Sajka]

Kirk, I don't give a damm if that's what they expect. From me, they don't 
get.

Sometimes, this turns into an educational opportunity. Usually, I don't 
hear anything one way or the other.

On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Kirk Wood wrote:

> On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I 
> > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I 
> > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file 
> > format as some kind of standard.
> 
> While it may be arrogant, it is reality. The reality is that business
> documents are often in word format, and if they send you a document to
> edit in word format, they expect it back in the same format. I suppose it
> is arrogant, but then again companies have been arrogant for many
> years. They still have the gall to tell you what is acceptable to wear and
> expect you to schedule your life arround them.
> 
> =======
> Kirk Wood
> Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
> 
> Nowlan's Theory:
>         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
>         the next freeway exit.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: anti-word

[Gregory Nowak]

I think that if I told him to just save it as a text file, he would've been even more confused, unless he was right in front of his monitor able to pull up the save as dialogue right there which he was not at the time.
Besides, I don't care how they save it, as long as I get the format I asked for.
Greg


On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 01:52:47PM -0500, Amanda Lee wrote:
> You are correct.  However, all that you needed to do was to point out to
> your professor that he could easily use "Save As" from the pulldown menu and
> save his documents for mailing to you in text.  I frequenlty do this when I
> receive Word documents as I will today for two courses I'm taking this week
> on Networks and Advanced TCP/IP.  These I will download to my notetaker as
> they are smaller and there is a book reader function in my notetaker and so
> I can read these files while I'm in the taxi going to work or whatever.
> 
> I agree that the Universities are at the root of much of this but ...  they
> really don't need to know nor do anything other than press the right buttons
> and click on the desired choice.
> 
> Amanda Lee
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 1:24 PM
> Subject: Re: anti-word
> 
> 
> > Yes, I do. However, you seem to be missing the point I'm trying to get
> across here. So, let me give you an example.
> > A professor of mine was handing out something that he had written for the
> class. Since I knew that he had written it by himself recently, I asked if
> he could e-mail me a plain text file instead, so I wouldn't need to mess
> with scannning the handout. His answer to me was: "you mean a word
> document?" I said "no, I mean a .txt file, a plain ASCII text file." He was
> still confused, so I said, "like the files that you create with notepad." He
> said "oh, ok."
> >
> > My point is as it was before. If all they know about their computer is how
> to turn it on and off, then how are they supposed to know about other
> platforms if they don't even know for sure what a text file?
> >
> > If some of you on this list want to blame the ignorant professor, then
> maybe you should blame universities, employers, and the way we learn and
> work today. Universities and employers are the ones today who tell you they
> want your papers in 12 point font, and formatted this way or that. Now, how
> are we supposed to achieve that in something like notepad/emacs/pico? And if
> someone else is wondering how the hell this guy became a professor without
> knowing crap about what kinds of files he could produce on his computer,
> then that is a new question to examine the answer to.
> > Greg
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:29:50PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > Gregory, I keep telling you this answer, but there's some part of it
> that
> > > you seem to still miss. What part is that?
> > >
> > > They don't need to know a damm thing to retrieve either a text doc (no
> > > formatting), or an html doc (much formatting).
> > >
> > > They need know nothing special in order to do that. Do you understand
> this
> > > yet?
> > >
> > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > >
> > > > And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if all
> they know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off?
> > > > Greg
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote:
> > > > > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers,
> > > > >
> > > > >          Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging on
> planet
> > > > > Linux.  It is correct to point out that in the ideal there should
> not be a
> > > > > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all know,
> the
> > > > > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see the
> world in
> > > > > the same way.  Don't you just hate it when that happens.  Smile.
> > > > >
> > > > >          I guess my view is that if word users want to communicate
> with
> > > > > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the realities
> of
> > > > > other computer platforms.  Consumer choice still has it's place!
> > > > >
> > > > > -- Charlie Crawford.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > > > > >Amen! to that Janina!
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Amanda
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > > > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM
> > > > > >Subject: Re: anti-word
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and
> editing,
> > > > > >I'm
> > > > > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in
> Word
> > > > > >format
> > > > > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such.  Some of
> this whole
> > > > > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads
> Word. I
> > > > > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to
> Microsoft. I
> > > > > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary,
> non-consensus, file
> > > > > > > format as some kind of standard.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >_______________________________________________
> > > > > >Speakup mailing list
> > > > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > Technology Research and Development
> > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > >
> > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > >
> > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > http://www.openebook.org
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: anti-word

[Charles Hallenbeck]

I do not understand why you do not just accept what he is ready
to send you, since you can easily do the conversion yourself. Why
expect him to do it?


On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:

> I think that if I told him to just save it as a text file, he would've been even more confused, unless he was right in front of his monitor able to pull up the save as dialogue right there which he was not at the time.
> Besides, I don't care how they save it, as long as I get the format I asked for.
> Greg
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 01:52:47PM -0500, Amanda Lee wrote:
> > You are correct.  However, all that you needed to do was to point out to
> > your professor that he could easily use "Save As" from the pulldown menu and
> > save his documents for mailing to you in text.  I frequenlty do this when I
> > receive Word documents as I will today for two courses I'm taking this week
> > on Networks and Advanced TCP/IP.  These I will download to my notetaker as
> > they are smaller and there is a book reader function in my notetaker and so
> > I can read these files while I'm in the taxi going to work or whatever.
> >
> > I agree that the Universities are at the root of much of this but ...  they
> > really don't need to know nor do anything other than press the right buttons
> > and click on the desired choice.
> >
> > Amanda Lee
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 1:24 PM
> > Subject: Re: anti-word
> >
> >
> > > Yes, I do. However, you seem to be missing the point I'm trying to get
> > across here. So, let me give you an example.
> > > A professor of mine was handing out something that he had written for the
> > class. Since I knew that he had written it by himself recently, I asked if
> > he could e-mail me a plain text file instead, so I wouldn't need to mess
> > with scannning the handout. His answer to me was: "you mean a word
> > document?" I said "no, I mean a .txt file, a plain ASCII text file." He was
> > still confused, so I said, "like the files that you create with notepad." He
> > said "oh, ok."
> > >
> > > My point is as it was before. If all they know about their computer is how
> > to turn it on and off, then how are they supposed to know about other
> > platforms if they don't even know for sure what a text file?
> > >
> > > If some of you on this list want to blame the ignorant professor, then
> > maybe you should blame universities, employers, and the way we learn and
> > work today. Universities and employers are the ones today who tell you they
> > want your papers in 12 point font, and formatted this way or that. Now, how
> > are we supposed to achieve that in something like notepad/emacs/pico? And if
> > someone else is wondering how the hell this guy became a professor without
> > knowing crap about what kinds of files he could produce on his computer,
> > then that is a new question to examine the answer to.
> > > Greg
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:29:50PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > > Gregory, I keep telling you this answer, but there's some part of it
> > that
> > > > you seem to still miss. What part is that?
> > > >
> > > > They don't need to know a damm thing to retrieve either a text doc (no
> > > > formatting), or an html doc (much formatting).
> > > >
> > > > They need know nothing special in order to do that. Do you understand
> > this
> > > > yet?
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if all
> > they know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off?
> > > > > Greg
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote:
> > > > > > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >          Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging on
> > planet
> > > > > > Linux.  It is correct to point out that in the ideal there should
> > not be a
> > > > > > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all know,
> > the
> > > > > > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see the
> > world in
> > > > > > the same way.  Don't you just hate it when that happens.  Smile.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >          I guess my view is that if word users want to communicate
> > with
> > > > > > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the realities
> > of
> > > > > > other computer platforms.  Consumer choice still has it's place!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -- Charlie Crawford.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > > > > > >Amen! to that Janina!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Amanda
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > > > > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > > > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM
> > > > > > >Subject: Re: anti-word
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and
> > editing,
> > > > > > >I'm
> > > > > > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in
> > Word
> > > > > > >format
> > > > > > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such.  Some of
> > this whole
> > > > > > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads
> > Word. I
> > > > > > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to
> > Microsoft. I
> > > > > > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary,
> > non-consensus, file
> > > > > > > > format as some kind of standard.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >_______________________________________________
> > > > > > >Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > > Technology Research and Development
> > > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > >
> > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > >
> > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > > http://www.openebook.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*
Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh
The Moon is New

Re: anti-word

[Gregory Nowak]

Janina,
First of all, we are not talking about publication (or at least I'm not in the sense of the word). Also, by taking upon your self the conversion of word documents into plain text, I feel that you are not only encouraging but also supporting the very thing you and the rest of us disscussing here are against.
If you want to teach a bird to find its own food, you won't feed it continually, you will let it out the window or whatever so that it can learn.
Greg


On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 02:47:47PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> Greg, I run into this all the time. Since I'm the minority--the non-word 
> user--I take it upon myself to translate the contents into something I can 
> read, and usually don't bother the sendor about it unless they send me 
> something that just doesn't translate well. That's my usual approach.
> 
> If, the document in question is meant for publication as opposed to 
> something that passes between two or three people, then it's a very 
> different story. Then they don't get to be ignorant in my view. But, as I 
> said, that's another story. I didn't think we were talking about 
> publication.
> 
>  On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> 
> > Yes, I do. However, you seem to be missing the point I'm trying to get across here. So, let me give you an example.
> > A professor of mine was handing out something that he had written for the class. Since I knew that he had written it by himself recently, I asked if he could e-mail me a plain text file instead, so I wouldn't need to mess with scannning the handout. His answer to me was: "you mean a word document?" I said "no, I mean a .txt file, a plain ASCII text file." He was still confused, so I said, "like the files that you create with notepad." He said "oh, ok."
> > 
> > My point is as it was before. If all they know about their computer is how to turn it on and off, then how are they supposed to know about other platforms if they don't even know for sure what a text file?
> > 
> > If some of you on this list want to blame the ignorant professor, then maybe you should blame universities, employers, and the way we learn and work today. Universities and employers are the ones today who tell you they want your papers in 12 point font, and formatted this way or that. Now, how are we supposed to achieve that in something like notepad/emacs/pico? And if someone else is wondering how the hell this guy became a professor without knowing crap about what kinds of files he could produce on his computer, then that is a new question to examine the answer to.
> > Greg
> > 
> > 
> > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:29:50PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > Gregory, I keep telling you this answer, but there's some part of it that 
> > > you seem to still miss. What part is that?
> > > 
> > > They don't need to know a damm thing to retrieve either a text doc (no 
> > > formatting), or an html doc (much formatting).
> > > 
> > > They need know nothing special in order to do that. Do you understand this 
> > > yet?
> > > 
> > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > > 
> > > > And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if all they know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off?
> > > > Greg
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote:
> > > > > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers,
> > > > > 
> > > > >          Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging on planet 
> > > > > Linux.  It is correct to point out that in the ideal there should not be a 
> > > > > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all know, the 
> > > > > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see the world in 
> > > > > the same way.  Don't you just hate it when that happens.  Smile.
> > > > > 
> > > > >          I guess my view is that if word users want to communicate with 
> > > > > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the realities of 
> > > > > other computer platforms.  Consumer choice still has it's place!
> > > > > 
> > > > > -- Charlie Crawford.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > > > > >Amen! to that Janina!
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Amanda
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > > > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM
> > > > > >Subject: Re: anti-word
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing,
> > > > > >I'm
> > > > > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word
> > > > > >format
> > > > > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such.  Some of this whole
> > > > > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I
> > > > > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I
> > > > > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file
> > > > > > > format as some kind of standard.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >_______________________________________________
> > > > > >Speakup mailing list
> > > > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > 	
> > > 				Janina Sajka, Director
> > > 				Technology Research and Development
> > > 				Governmental Relations Group
> > > 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > 
> > > Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > 
> > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > http://www.openebook.org
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> -- 
> 	
> 				Janina Sajka, Director
> 				Technology Research and Development
> 				Governmental Relations Group
> 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: anti-word

[Amanda Lee]

I'm certain that most of us suck it up and accept it but given the
opportunity to enlighten someone, I do and many times they find other uses
as well for themselves.  So it's not always about acocmodating our
individual needs as persons who are blind.

Amanda Lee

----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Hallenbeck" <chuckh@mhonline.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 2:59 PM
Subject: Re: anti-word


> I do not understand why you do not just accept what he is ready
> to send you, since you can easily do the conversion yourself. Why
> expect him to do it?
>
>
> On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
>
> > I think that if I told him to just save it as a text file, he would've
been even more confused, unless he was right in front of his monitor able to
pull up the save as dialogue right there which he was not at the time.
> > Besides, I don't care how they save it, as long as I get the format I
asked for.
> > Greg
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 01:52:47PM -0500, Amanda Lee wrote:
> > > You are correct.  However, all that you needed to do was to point out
to
> > > your professor that he could easily use "Save As" from the pulldown
menu and
> > > save his documents for mailing to you in text.  I frequenlty do this
when I
> > > receive Word documents as I will today for two courses I'm taking this
week
> > > on Networks and Advanced TCP/IP.  These I will download to my
notetaker as
> > > they are smaller and there is a book reader function in my notetaker
and so
> > > I can read these files while I'm in the taxi going to work or
whatever.
> > >
> > > I agree that the Universities are at the root of much of this but ...
they
> > > really don't need to know nor do anything other than press the right
buttons
> > > and click on the desired choice.
> > >
> > > Amanda Lee
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 1:24 PM
> > > Subject: Re: anti-word
> > >
> > >
> > > > Yes, I do. However, you seem to be missing the point I'm trying to
get
> > > across here. So, let me give you an example.
> > > > A professor of mine was handing out something that he had written
for the
> > > class. Since I knew that he had written it by himself recently, I
asked if
> > > he could e-mail me a plain text file instead, so I wouldn't need to
mess
> > > with scannning the handout. His answer to me was: "you mean a word
> > > document?" I said "no, I mean a .txt file, a plain ASCII text file."
He was
> > > still confused, so I said, "like the files that you create with
notepad." He
> > > said "oh, ok."
> > > >
> > > > My point is as it was before. If all they know about their computer
is how
> > > to turn it on and off, then how are they supposed to know about other
> > > platforms if they don't even know for sure what a text file?
> > > >
> > > > If some of you on this list want to blame the ignorant professor,
then
> > > maybe you should blame universities, employers, and the way we learn
and
> > > work today. Universities and employers are the ones today who tell you
they
> > > want your papers in 12 point font, and formatted this way or that.
Now, how
> > > are we supposed to achieve that in something like notepad/emacs/pico?
And if
> > > someone else is wondering how the hell this guy became a professor
without
> > > knowing crap about what kinds of files he could produce on his
computer,
> > > then that is a new question to examine the answer to.
> > > > Greg
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:29:50PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > > > Gregory, I keep telling you this answer, but there's some part of
it
> > > that
> > > > > you seem to still miss. What part is that?
> > > > >
> > > > > They don't need to know a damm thing to retrieve either a text doc
(no
> > > > > formatting), or an html doc (much formatting).
> > > > >
> > > > > They need know nothing special in order to do that. Do you
understand
> > > this
> > > > > yet?
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if
all
> > > they know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off?
> > > > > > Greg
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford
wrote:
> > > > > > > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >          Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging
on
> > > planet
> > > > > > > Linux.  It is correct to point out that in the ideal there
should
> > > not be a
> > > > > > > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all
know,
> > > the
> > > > > > > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see
the
> > > world in
> > > > > > > the same way.  Don't you just hate it when that happens.
Smile.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >          I guess my view is that if word users want to
communicate
> > > with
> > > > > > > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the
realities
> > > of
> > > > > > > other computer platforms.  Consumer choice still has it's
place!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -- Charlie Crawford.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > > > > > > >Amen! to that Janina!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Amanda
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > > > > > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > > > > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM
> > > > > > > >Subject: Re: anti-word
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input
and
> > > editing,
> > > > > > > >I'm
> > > > > > > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come
back in
> > > Word
> > > > > > > >format
> > > > > > > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such.
Some of
> > > this whole
> > > > > > > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and
reads
> > > Word. I
> > > > > > > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to
> > > Microsoft. I
> > > > > > > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary,
> > > non-consensus, file
> > > > > > > > > format as some kind of standard.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >_______________________________________________
> > > > > > > >Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > >
> > > > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > > > Technology Research and Development
> > > > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > > >
> > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > > >
> > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > > > http://www.openebook.org
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> *<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*
> Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh
> The Moon is New
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: anti-word

[Janina Sajka]

Well, I believe you're wrong on both counts, in terms of what AFB supports
and in terms of what's good for blind people.

Proprietary formats that work sometimes, and don't work often are not good 
for blind people. For example, when it comes to inaccessible documents, 
such as the forms mentioned in an earlier message, an accomondation can 
reasonably be enforced under the ADA. I speak here of the most 
restrictive circumstance such that of employment where, as you 
pointed out, there are defined company standards. There are other 
examples.

You have, however, apparently narrowed the scope of this discussion to
file sharing within some kind of organizational entity--a company, a
school.  The issue goes beyond that.

When the situation is a proprietary format to someone outside of an
organizational entity, the entity is on even weaker ground. They have no
basis in law to compel someone to spend money on devices they would
otherwise not purchase in order to read something they're entitled to
read. An excellent example of this circumstance are Sec. 508 (and I 
daresay 504). When the government chooses to publish forms on the web, 
they are now required to be accessible forms. And, they must be accessible 
to a wider variety of individuals with a wider variety of technologies. 
They cannot, for example, say "Word is accessible, so we can publish 
Word," because it's arguably only accessible to those with that kind of 
technology. The public service must serve the greater public, not just 
that majority that may have chosen Word somehow. 



 On 
Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Kirk Wood wrote:

> I hope for the sake of blind people Janina speaks for herself and not the
> AFB. Reality strike here. Many people use their computer for primarily
> business reasons. And as such they are stuck with the arrogant rules of a
> business. For some stupid reason us sighted folks prefer text that is
> formatted. And no Janina, html and text don't give the level of formatting
> that word does. Sorry, but does not computer. Will not compute.
> 
> =======
> Kirk Wood
> Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
> 
> Nowlan's Theory:
>         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
>         the next freeway exit.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: anti-word

[Janina Sajka]

Yes, I daresay that WordPerfect 5.1 for DOS is still regarded by most 
blind people (who remember it) as the best word processor ever. I know 
quite a few folks who still use it when they actually need to get some 
serious writing done.


On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:

> Yes I do and still use WP5 when I want to do any reliable document
> formatting.  I will burn my WP5 master diskettes onto CDs and keep those in
> a very safe place!
> 
> Amanda Lee
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jason" <unleet@qwest.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 2:00 PM
> Subject: Re: anti-word
> 
> 
> > hmmm.... when you add cascading style sheets to the HTML format, I'd say
> it's
> > almost as good as Word's formatting.... besides I've seen some HTML that's
> > better formatted than any word document.
> >
> > Granted, HTML isn't exactly geared toward being printed, but it would only
> > take a few modifications to make it so.
> >
> > (Anybody remember Word Perfect for DOS? It would let you veiw the
> formatting
> > codes in the document and delete stupid mistakes like the bold tag that
> > reversed the emphasis in your whole document... well HTML can do that too,
> > Word can't)
> >
> > On Sunday January 13, 2002 11:49 am, you wrote:
> > > I hope for the sake of blind people Janina speaks for herself and not
> the
> > > AFB. Reality strike here. Many people use their computer for primarily
> > > business reasons. And as such they are stuck with the arrogant rules of
> a
> > > business. For some stupid reason us sighted folks prefer text that is
> > > formatted. And no Janina, html and text don't give the level of
> formatting
> > > that word does. Sorry, but does not computer. Will not compute.
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: anti-word

[Janina Sajka]

Ah, OK, I think I understand where you're coming from on this a bit better 
now.

It took me a long time in life to come around to the understanding that I 
couldn't possibly fight all battles. If for no other reason than that it 
is very time consuming to do so. So, I try to choose my battles in such a 
way as to leverage my time for greater effect in the campaign. 

A pro pos this discussion, to me this means that I can't educate each and 
every person I interact with one at a time. I think you'd agree with me 
that I have more impact for the good by focusing on things like the 
NISO/DAISY digital talking book standard, and on getting the textbook 
publishing industry to agree to use it meeting their obligations to make 
textbooks accessible. Would you agree with this prioritization?

If then it follows that I can't stop and deal with every comer, I must be 
ready to do some of my own conversions.


 On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:

> Janina,
> First of all, we are not talking about publication (or at least I'm not in the sense of the word). Also, by taking upon your self the conversion of word documents into plain text, I feel that you are not only encouraging but also supporting the very thing you and the rest of us disscussing here are against.
> If you want to teach a bird to find its own food, you won't feed it continually, you will let it out the window or whatever so that it can learn.
> Greg
> 
> 
> On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 02:47:47PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > Greg, I run into this all the time. Since I'm the minority--the non-word 
> > user--I take it upon myself to translate the contents into something I can 
> > read, and usually don't bother the sendor about it unless they send me 
> > something that just doesn't translate well. That's my usual approach.
> > 
> > If, the document in question is meant for publication as opposed to 
> > something that passes between two or three people, then it's a very 
> > different story. Then they don't get to be ignorant in my view. But, as I 
> > said, that's another story. I didn't think we were talking about 
> > publication.
> > 
> >  On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > 
> > > Yes, I do. However, you seem to be missing the point I'm trying to get across here. So, let me give you an example.
> > > A professor of mine was handing out something that he had written for the class. Since I knew that he had written it by himself recently, I asked if he could e-mail me a plain text file instead, so I wouldn't need to mess with scannning the handout. His answer to me was: "you mean a word document?" I said "no, I mean a .txt file, a plain ASCII text file." He was still confused, so I said, "like the files that you create with notepad." He said "oh, ok."
> > > 
> > > My point is as it was before. If all they know about their computer is how to turn it on and off, then how are they supposed to know about other platforms if they don't even know for sure what a text file?
> > > 
> > > If some of you on this list want to blame the ignorant professor, then maybe you should blame universities, employers, and the way we learn and work today. Universities and employers are the ones today who tell you they want your papers in 12 point font, and formatted this way or that. Now, how are we supposed to achieve that in something like notepad/emacs/pico? And if someone else is wondering how the hell this guy became a professor without knowing crap about what kinds of files he could produce on his computer, then that is a new question to examine the answer to.
> > > Greg
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:29:50PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > > Gregory, I keep telling you this answer, but there's some part of it that 
> > > > you seem to still miss. What part is that?
> > > > 
> > > > They don't need to know a damm thing to retrieve either a text doc (no 
> > > > formatting), or an html doc (much formatting).
> > > > 
> > > > They need know nothing special in order to do that. Do you understand this 
> > > > yet?
> > > > 
> > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if all they know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off?
> > > > > Greg
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote:
> > > > > > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers,
> > > > > > 
> > > > > >          Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging on planet 
> > > > > > Linux.  It is correct to point out that in the ideal there should not be a 
> > > > > > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all know, the 
> > > > > > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see the world in 
> > > > > > the same way.  Don't you just hate it when that happens.  Smile.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > >          I guess my view is that if word users want to communicate with 
> > > > > > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the realities of 
> > > > > > other computer platforms.  Consumer choice still has it's place!
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > -- Charlie Crawford.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > > > > > >Amen! to that Janina!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Amanda
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > > > > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > > > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM
> > > > > > >Subject: Re: anti-word
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing,
> > > > > > >I'm
> > > > > > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word
> > > > > > >format
> > > > > > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such.  Some of this whole
> > > > > > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I
> > > > > > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I
> > > > > > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file
> > > > > > > > format as some kind of standard.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >_______________________________________________
> > > > > > >Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > 
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > -- 
> > > > 	
> > > > 				Janina Sajka, Director
> > > > 				Technology Research and Development
> > > > 				Governmental Relations Group
> > > > 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > > 
> > > > Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > > 
> > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > > http://www.openebook.org
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > 	
> > 				Janina Sajka, Director
> > 				Technology Research and Development
> > 				Governmental Relations Group
> > 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > 
> > Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > 
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: anti-word

[Amanda Lee]

Absolutely Greg and very eloquently expressed.

Amanda

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 3:02 PM
Subject: Re: anti-word


> Janina,
> First of all, we are not talking about publication (or at least I'm not in
the sense of the word). Also, by taking upon your self the conversion of
word documents into plain text, I feel that you are not only encouraging but
also supporting the very thing you and the rest of us disscussing here are
against.
> If you want to teach a bird to find its own food, you won't feed it
continually, you will let it out the window or whatever so that it can
learn.
> Greg
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 02:47:47PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > Greg, I run into this all the time. Since I'm the minority--the non-word
> > user--I take it upon myself to translate the contents into something I
can
> > read, and usually don't bother the sendor about it unless they send me
> > something that just doesn't translate well. That's my usual approach.
> >
> > If, the document in question is meant for publication as opposed to
> > something that passes between two or three people, then it's a very
> > different story. Then they don't get to be ignorant in my view. But, as
I
> > said, that's another story. I didn't think we were talking about
> > publication.
> >
> >  On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> >
> > > Yes, I do. However, you seem to be missing the point I'm trying to get
across here. So, let me give you an example.
> > > A professor of mine was handing out something that he had written for
the class. Since I knew that he had written it by himself recently, I asked
if he could e-mail me a plain text file instead, so I wouldn't need to mess
with scannning the handout. His answer to me was: "you mean a word
document?" I said "no, I mean a .txt file, a plain ASCII text file." He was
still confused, so I said, "like the files that you create with notepad." He
said "oh, ok."
> > >
> > > My point is as it was before. If all they know about their computer is
how to turn it on and off, then how are they supposed to know about other
platforms if they don't even know for sure what a text file?
> > >
> > > If some of you on this list want to blame the ignorant professor, then
maybe you should blame universities, employers, and the way we learn and
work today. Universities and employers are the ones today who tell you they
want your papers in 12 point font, and formatted this way or that. Now, how
are we supposed to achieve that in something like notepad/emacs/pico? And if
someone else is wondering how the hell this guy became a professor without
knowing crap about what kinds of files he could produce on his computer,
then that is a new question to examine the answer to.
> > > Greg
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:29:50PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > > Gregory, I keep telling you this answer, but there's some part of it
that
> > > > you seem to still miss. What part is that?
> > > >
> > > > They don't need to know a damm thing to retrieve either a text doc
(no
> > > > formatting), or an html doc (much formatting).
> > > >
> > > > They need know nothing special in order to do that. Do you
understand this
> > > > yet?
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if
all they know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off?
> > > > > Greg
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote:
> > > > > > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >          Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging on
planet
> > > > > > Linux.  It is correct to point out that in the ideal there
should not be a
> > > > > > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all
know, the
> > > > > > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see the
world in
> > > > > > the same way.  Don't you just hate it when that happens.  Smile.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >          I guess my view is that if word users want to
communicate with
> > > > > > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the
realities of
> > > > > > other computer platforms.  Consumer choice still has it's place!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -- Charlie Crawford.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > > > > > >Amen! to that Janina!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Amanda
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > > > > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > > > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM
> > > > > > >Subject: Re: anti-word
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input
and editing,
> > > > > > >I'm
> > > > > > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come
back in Word
> > > > > > >format
> > > > > > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such.  Some
of this whole
> > > > > > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and
reads Word. I
> > > > > > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to
Microsoft. I
> > > > > > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary,
non-consensus, file
> > > > > > > > format as some kind of standard.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >_______________________________________________
> > > > > > >Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > > Technology Research and Development
> > > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > >
> > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > >
> > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > > http://www.openebook.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Janina Sajka, Director
> > Technology Research and Development
> > Governmental Relations Group
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: anti-word

[Charles Hallenbeck]

Hmmmm - Seems like you are saying you often have two goals: (1)
get your own work done, and (2) enlighten somebody and change the
world. In that case I guess you should ask your professors
etcetera to do those conversions. I guess I would defer the
crusading for another time and concentrate on goal #1, but that
is only my own not so humble opinion.

Seems to me that enlightenment works best when the enlightennee
reaches out for it. For instance, if the professor etcetera
should ask about the process of accessing his MS word goodies,
then of course I would jump on the opportunity to outline what I
must do to decode the damn thing to make it readable. If he then
offers to save me the trouble next time, again I would jump at
the offer and encourage him. But for me, I guess if I can get the
conversion done with no fuss or muss, I would just do it and get
on with life.

Just an old man's two cents worth. (and also a blind
professor's).

Chuck


On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:

> I'm certain that most of us suck it up and accept it but given the
> opportunity to enlighten someone, I do and many times they find other uses
> as well for themselves.  So it's not always about acocmodating our
> individual needs as persons who are blind.
>
> Amanda Lee
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Charles Hallenbeck" <chuckh@mhonline.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 2:59 PM
> Subject: Re: anti-word
>
>
> > I do not understand why you do not just accept what he is ready
> > to send you, since you can easily do the conversion yourself. Why
> > expect him to do it?
> >
> >
> > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> >
> > > I think that if I told him to just save it as a text file, he would've
> been even more confused, unless he was right in front of his monitor able to
> pull up the save as dialogue right there which he was not at the time.
> > > Besides, I don't care how they save it, as long as I get the format I
> asked for.
> > > Greg
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 01:52:47PM -0500, Amanda Lee wrote:
> > > > You are correct.  However, all that you needed to do was to point out
> to
> > > > your professor that he could easily use "Save As" from the pulldown
> menu and
> > > > save his documents for mailing to you in text.  I frequenlty do this
> when I
> > > > receive Word documents as I will today for two courses I'm taking this
> week
> > > > on Networks and Advanced TCP/IP.  These I will download to my
> notetaker as
> > > > they are smaller and there is a book reader function in my notetaker
> and so
> > > > I can read these files while I'm in the taxi going to work or
> whatever.
> > > >
> > > > I agree that the Universities are at the root of much of this but ...
> they
> > > > really don't need to know nor do anything other than press the right
> buttons
> > > > and click on the desired choice.
> > > >
> > > > Amanda Lee
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu>
> > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 1:24 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: anti-word
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Yes, I do. However, you seem to be missing the point I'm trying to
> get
> > > > across here. So, let me give you an example.
> > > > > A professor of mine was handing out something that he had written
> for the
> > > > class. Since I knew that he had written it by himself recently, I
> asked if
> > > > he could e-mail me a plain text file instead, so I wouldn't need to
> mess
> > > > with scannning the handout. His answer to me was: "you mean a word
> > > > document?" I said "no, I mean a .txt file, a plain ASCII text file."
> He was
> > > > still confused, so I said, "like the files that you create with
> notepad." He
> > > > said "oh, ok."
> > > > >
> > > > > My point is as it was before. If all they know about their computer
> is how
> > > > to turn it on and off, then how are they supposed to know about other
> > > > platforms if they don't even know for sure what a text file?
> > > > >
> > > > > If some of you on this list want to blame the ignorant professor,
> then
> > > > maybe you should blame universities, employers, and the way we learn
> and
> > > > work today. Universities and employers are the ones today who tell you
> they
> > > > want your papers in 12 point font, and formatted this way or that.
> Now, how
> > > > are we supposed to achieve that in something like notepad/emacs/pico?
> And if
> > > > someone else is wondering how the hell this guy became a professor
> without
> > > > knowing crap about what kinds of files he could produce on his
> computer,
> > > > then that is a new question to examine the answer to.
> > > > > Greg
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:29:50PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > > > > Gregory, I keep telling you this answer, but there's some part of
> it
> > > > that
> > > > > > you seem to still miss. What part is that?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > They don't need to know a damm thing to retrieve either a text doc
> (no
> > > > > > formatting), or an html doc (much formatting).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > They need know nothing special in order to do that. Do you
> understand
> > > > this
> > > > > > yet?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if
> all
> > > > they know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off?
> > > > > > > Greg
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford
> wrote:
> > > > > > > > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >          Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging
> on
> > > > planet
> > > > > > > > Linux.  It is correct to point out that in the ideal there
> should
> > > > not be a
> > > > > > > > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all
> know,
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see
> the
> > > > world in
> > > > > > > > the same way.  Don't you just hate it when that happens.
> Smile.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >          I guess my view is that if word users want to
> communicate
> > > > with
> > > > > > > > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the
> realities
> > > > of
> > > > > > > > other computer platforms.  Consumer choice still has it's
> place!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > -- Charlie Crawford.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > > > > > > > >Amen! to that Janina!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >Amanda
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > > > > > > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > > > > > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM
> > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: anti-word
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input
> and
> > > > editing,
> > > > > > > > >I'm
> > > > > > > > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come
> back in
> > > > Word
> > > > > > > > >format
> > > > > > > > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such.
> Some of
> > > > this whole
> > > > > > > > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and
> reads
> > > > Word. I
> > > > > > > > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to
> > > > Microsoft. I
> > > > > > > > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary,
> > > > non-consensus, file
> > > > > > > > > > format as some kind of standard.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > >Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > > > > Technology Research and Development
> > > > > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > > > > http://www.openebook.org
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> > *<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*
> > Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh
> > The Moon is New
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*
Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh
The Moon is New

Re: anti-word

[Amanda Lee]

You answered your own question here.  If there is a time-sensative situation
or for some reason an email provider is restrictive about file sizes and
I've encountered this more than once as thankfully I have a different
provider/Shellworld other than the lousy pittle that comes with the
Cable/Broadband service, I couldn't have emailed a bunch of .ppt documents
and would have had to resort to breaking down the messages containing the
PowerPoint and Word documents for these courses into multiple messages.
This is time-consuming to delete off attachments and to be certain to spread
them to other messages such that I didn't forget an attachment in the
process.  If I didn't have any other choice but to be confined to the
restrictions of my provider and the source for the soft copy documents
waited until the last minute to send them, I would have most definitely
requested text files because I wouldn't have had enough time to do the
conversions along with ordinary work-related tasks and to mail them to
myself here at home for studying during the evening.  So it goes without
saying that to address the situation on an individual basis is proactive.
Some blind students only have a notetaker as their primary tool for access
and  many notetakers  have limited storage capacity  Therefore, this blind
individual couldn't just accept a Word document as is.  I believe that the
Educational sector does need to be more flexible because after all, this is
indeed a "Reasonable Accomodation" and it costs nothing but a few keystrokes
on the part of the document source.

Amanda Lee

----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Hallenbeck" <chuckh@mhonline.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 3:24 PM
Subject: Re: anti-word


> Hmmmm - Seems like you are saying you often have two goals: (1)
> get your own work done, and (2) enlighten somebody and change the
> world. In that case I guess you should ask your professors
> etcetera to do those conversions. I guess I would defer the
> crusading for another time and concentrate on goal #1, but that
> is only my own not so humble opinion.
>
> Seems to me that enlightenment works best when the enlightennee
> reaches out for it. For instance, if the professor etcetera
> should ask about the process of accessing his MS word goodies,
> then of course I would jump on the opportunity to outline what I
> must do to decode the damn thing to make it readable. If he then
> offers to save me the trouble next time, again I would jump at
> the offer and encourage him. But for me, I guess if I can get the
> conversion done with no fuss or muss, I would just do it and get
> on with life.
>
> Just an old man's two cents worth. (and also a blind
> professor's).
>
> Chuck
>
>
> On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:
>
> > I'm certain that most of us suck it up and accept it but given the
> > opportunity to enlighten someone, I do and many times they find other
uses
> > as well for themselves.  So it's not always about acocmodating our
> > individual needs as persons who are blind.
> >
> > Amanda Lee
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Charles Hallenbeck" <chuckh@mhonline.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 2:59 PM
> > Subject: Re: anti-word
> >
> >
> > > I do not understand why you do not just accept what he is ready
> > > to send you, since you can easily do the conversion yourself. Why
> > > expect him to do it?
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > >
> > > > I think that if I told him to just save it as a text file, he
would've
> > been even more confused, unless he was right in front of his monitor
able to
> > pull up the save as dialogue right there which he was not at the time.
> > > > Besides, I don't care how they save it, as long as I get the format
I
> > asked for.
> > > > Greg
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 01:52:47PM -0500, Amanda Lee wrote:
> > > > > You are correct.  However, all that you needed to do was to point
out
> > to
> > > > > your professor that he could easily use "Save As" from the
pulldown
> > menu and
> > > > > save his documents for mailing to you in text.  I frequenlty do
this
> > when I
> > > > > receive Word documents as I will today for two courses I'm taking
this
> > week
> > > > > on Networks and Advanced TCP/IP.  These I will download to my
> > notetaker as
> > > > > they are smaller and there is a book reader function in my
notetaker
> > and so
> > > > > I can read these files while I'm in the taxi going to work or
> > whatever.
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree that the Universities are at the root of much of this but
...
> > they
> > > > > really don't need to know nor do anything other than press the
right
> > buttons
> > > > > and click on the desired choice.
> > > > >
> > > > > Amanda Lee
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu>
> > > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 1:24 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: anti-word
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Yes, I do. However, you seem to be missing the point I'm trying
to
> > get
> > > > > across here. So, let me give you an example.
> > > > > > A professor of mine was handing out something that he had
written
> > for the
> > > > > class. Since I knew that he had written it by himself recently, I
> > asked if
> > > > > he could e-mail me a plain text file instead, so I wouldn't need
to
> > mess
> > > > > with scannning the handout. His answer to me was: "you mean a word
> > > > > document?" I said "no, I mean a .txt file, a plain ASCII text
file."
> > He was
> > > > > still confused, so I said, "like the files that you create with
> > notepad." He
> > > > > said "oh, ok."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My point is as it was before. If all they know about their
computer
> > is how
> > > > > to turn it on and off, then how are they supposed to know about
other
> > > > > platforms if they don't even know for sure what a text file?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If some of you on this list want to blame the ignorant
professor,
> > then
> > > > > maybe you should blame universities, employers, and the way we
learn
> > and
> > > > > work today. Universities and employers are the ones today who tell
you
> > they
> > > > > want your papers in 12 point font, and formatted this way or that.
> > Now, how
> > > > > are we supposed to achieve that in something like
notepad/emacs/pico?
> > And if
> > > > > someone else is wondering how the hell this guy became a professor
> > without
> > > > > knowing crap about what kinds of files he could produce on his
> > computer,
> > > > > then that is a new question to examine the answer to.
> > > > > > Greg
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:29:50PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > > > > > Gregory, I keep telling you this answer, but there's some part
of
> > it
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > you seem to still miss. What part is that?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > They don't need to know a damm thing to retrieve either a text
doc
> > (no
> > > > > > > formatting), or an html doc (much formatting).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > They need know nothing special in order to do that. Do you
> > understand
> > > > > this
> > > > > > > yet?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms
if
> > all
> > > > > they know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and
off?
> > > > > > > > Greg
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford
> > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >          Well, looks like the world of advocacy is
impinging
> > on
> > > > > planet
> > > > > > > > > Linux.  It is correct to point out that in the ideal there
> > should
> > > > > not be a
> > > > > > > > > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we
all
> > know,
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not
see
> > the
> > > > > world in
> > > > > > > > > the same way.  Don't you just hate it when that happens.
> > Smile.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >          I guess my view is that if word users want to
> > communicate
> > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the
> > realities
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > other computer platforms.  Consumer choice still has it's
> > place!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > -- Charlie Crawford.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >Amen! to that Janina!
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >Amanda
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > > > > > > > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > > > > > > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM
> > > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: anti-word
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your
input
> > and
> > > > > editing,
> > > > > > > > > >I'm
> > > > > > > > > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to
come
> > back in
> > > > > Word
> > > > > > > > > >format
> > > > > > > > > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such.
> > Some of
> > > > > this whole
> > > > > > > > > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants
and
> > reads
> > > > > Word. I
> > > > > > > > > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to
> > > > > Microsoft. I
> > > > > > > > > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary,
> > > > > non-consensus, file
> > > > > > > > > > > format as some kind of standard.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > >Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > > > > > Technology Research and Development
> > > > > > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > > > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > > > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > > > > > http://www.openebook.org
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > > *<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*
> > > Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh
> > > The Moon is New
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> *<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*
> Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh
> The Moon is New
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: anti-word

[Kirk Wood]

On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Jason wrote:
> (Anybody remember Word Perfect for DOS? It would let you veiw the formatting 
> codes in the document and delete stupid mistakes like the bold tag that 
> reversed the emphasis in your whole document... well HTML can do that too, 
> Word can't)

And now the lack of knowing a product is perfectly illustrated. You can
indeed look at formating information in Word. But there is less need to
*if* you know the program.

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.

Re: anti-word

[Kirk Wood]

On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
> Kirk, I don't give a damm if that's what they expect. From me, they don't 
> get.
> 
> Sometimes, this turns into an educational opportunity. Usually, I don't 
> hear anything one way or the other.

It must be nice to *NOT* work for a real company. Janina, you proved my
profound belief that you lack real world experiance. Most people would
simply be unemployed taking that stance.

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.

Re: anti-word

[Amanda Lee]

Not really Greg,
 It is not acceptible to initiate personal attacks and we appreciate that.

Having said that.  I have been gainfully employed by the Private
Sector/Verizon Communications for 10 years of my employed life and I have
advocated for myself very effectively yet stood my ground.   I've also
worked nearly 9 years for Department of Treasury, Internal Revenue Service
as a senior programmer analyst.  I know for a fact! that advocating for what
is in the best interest of my ability to perform my work effectively has
enabled me rather than disabled me from the successes I have enjoyed.
O'yeah, feathers get ruffled from time to time but that is just a part of
life in general.  One must stand his or her ground in order to overcome
barriers and nobody said it's easy nor pleasant and especially that one is
required to cave into what those who are otherwise clueless want to dictate.

Maybe it's time to drop this thread though as we've gone beyond the topic of
Speakup ha!  Still the reason why the majority of us are here in the first
place is simply because we know that  Microsoft isn't the appropriate
solution to Accessibility to persons who are blind or vision impaired.

Amanda Lee

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kirk Wood" <cpt.kirk@1tree.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 4:56 PM
Subject: Re: anti-word


> On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > Kirk, I don't give a damm if that's what they expect. From me, they
don't
> > get.
> >
> > Sometimes, this turns into an educational opportunity. Usually, I don't
> > hear anything one way or the other.
>
> It must be nice to *NOT* work for a real company. Janina, you proved my
> profound belief that you lack real world experiance. Most people would
> simply be unemployed taking that stance.
>
> =======
> Kirk Wood
> Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
>
> Nowlan's Theory:
>         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
>         the next freeway exit.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: anti-word

[Gregory Nowak]

Because as I've stated in an earlier post, doing so would mean that I'm encouraging him to accept the ms word format by defacto.
Greg


On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 02:59:10PM -0500, Charles Hallenbeck wrote:
> I do not understand why you do not just accept what he is ready
> to send you, since you can easily do the conversion yourself. Why
> expect him to do it?
> 
> 
> On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> 
> > I think that if I told him to just save it as a text file, he would've been even more confused, unless he was right in front of his monitor able to pull up the save as dialogue right there which he was not at the time.
> > Besides, I don't care how they save it, as long as I get the format I asked for.
> > Greg
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 01:52:47PM -0500, Amanda Lee wrote:
> > > You are correct.  However, all that you needed to do was to point out to
> > > your professor that he could easily use "Save As" from the pulldown menu and
> > > save his documents for mailing to you in text.  I frequenlty do this when I
> > > receive Word documents as I will today for two courses I'm taking this week
> > > on Networks and Advanced TCP/IP.  These I will download to my notetaker as
> > > they are smaller and there is a book reader function in my notetaker and so
> > > I can read these files while I'm in the taxi going to work or whatever.
> > >
> > > I agree that the Universities are at the root of much of this but ...  they
> > > really don't need to know nor do anything other than press the right buttons
> > > and click on the desired choice.
> > >
> > > Amanda Lee
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 1:24 PM
> > > Subject: Re: anti-word
> > >
> > >
> > > > Yes, I do. However, you seem to be missing the point I'm trying to get
> > > across here. So, let me give you an example.
> > > > A professor of mine was handing out something that he had written for the
> > > class. Since I knew that he had written it by himself recently, I asked if
> > > he could e-mail me a plain text file instead, so I wouldn't need to mess
> > > with scannning the handout. His answer to me was: "you mean a word
> > > document?" I said "no, I mean a .txt file, a plain ASCII text file." He was
> > > still confused, so I said, "like the files that you create with notepad." He
> > > said "oh, ok."
> > > >
> > > > My point is as it was before. If all they know about their computer is how
> > > to turn it on and off, then how are they supposed to know about other
> > > platforms if they don't even know for sure what a text file?
> > > >
> > > > If some of you on this list want to blame the ignorant professor, then
> > > maybe you should blame universities, employers, and the way we learn and
> > > work today. Universities and employers are the ones today who tell you they
> > > want your papers in 12 point font, and formatted this way or that. Now, how
> > > are we supposed to achieve that in something like notepad/emacs/pico? And if
> > > someone else is wondering how the hell this guy became a professor without
> > > knowing crap about what kinds of files he could produce on his computer,
> > > then that is a new question to examine the answer to.
> > > > Greg
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:29:50PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > > > Gregory, I keep telling you this answer, but there's some part of it
> > > that
> > > > > you seem to still miss. What part is that?
> > > > >
> > > > > They don't need to know a damm thing to retrieve either a text doc (no
> > > > > formatting), or an html doc (much formatting).
> > > > >
> > > > > They need know nothing special in order to do that. Do you understand
> > > this
> > > > > yet?
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if all
> > > they know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off?
> > > > > > Greg
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote:
> > > > > > > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >          Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging on
> > > planet
> > > > > > > Linux.  It is correct to point out that in the ideal there should
> > > not be a
> > > > > > > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all know,
> > > the
> > > > > > > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see the
> > > world in
> > > > > > > the same way.  Don't you just hate it when that happens.  Smile.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >          I guess my view is that if word users want to communicate
> > > with
> > > > > > > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the realities
> > > of
> > > > > > > other computer platforms.  Consumer choice still has it's place!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -- Charlie Crawford.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > > > > > > >Amen! to that Janina!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Amanda
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > > > > > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > > > > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM
> > > > > > > >Subject: Re: anti-word
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and
> > > editing,
> > > > > > > >I'm
> > > > > > > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in
> > > Word
> > > > > > > >format
> > > > > > > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such.  Some of
> > > this whole
> > > > > > > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads
> > > Word. I
> > > > > > > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to
> > > Microsoft. I
> > > > > > > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary,
> > > non-consensus, file
> > > > > > > > > format as some kind of standard.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >_______________________________________________
> > > > > > > >Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > >
> > > > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > > > Technology Research and Development
> > > > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > > >
> > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > > >
> > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > > > http://www.openebook.org
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> *<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*
> Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh
> The Moon is New
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: anti-word

[Gregory Nowak]

Yes, I agree with you that it is better to look at the whole picture. However, when I get the chance to educate an individual, I will do so, because when you enlighten an individual, you are enlightening the masses which ultimately are the individual if you know what I mean.
Greg


On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 03:19:41PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> Ah, OK, I think I understand where you're coming from on this a bit better 
> now.
> 
> It took me a long time in life to come around to the understanding that I 
> couldn't possibly fight all battles. If for no other reason than that it 
> is very time consuming to do so. So, I try to choose my battles in such a 
> way as to leverage my time for greater effect in the campaign. 
> 
> A pro pos this discussion, to me this means that I can't educate each and 
> every person I interact with one at a time. I think you'd agree with me 
> that I have more impact for the good by focusing on things like the 
> NISO/DAISY digital talking book standard, and on getting the textbook 
> publishing industry to agree to use it meeting their obligations to make 
> textbooks accessible. Would you agree with this prioritization?
> 
> If then it follows that I can't stop and deal with every comer, I must be 
> ready to do some of my own conversions.
> 
> 
>  On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> 
> > Janina,
> > First of all, we are not talking about publication (or at least I'm not in the sense of the word). Also, by taking upon your self the conversion of word documents into plain text, I feel that you are not only encouraging but also supporting the very thing you and the rest of us disscussing here are against.
> > If you want to teach a bird to find its own food, you won't feed it continually, you will let it out the window or whatever so that it can learn.
> > Greg
> > 
> > 
> > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 02:47:47PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > Greg, I run into this all the time. Since I'm the minority--the non-word 
> > > user--I take it upon myself to translate the contents into something I can 
> > > read, and usually don't bother the sendor about it unless they send me 
> > > something that just doesn't translate well. That's my usual approach.
> > > 
> > > If, the document in question is meant for publication as opposed to 
> > > something that passes between two or three people, then it's a very 
> > > different story. Then they don't get to be ignorant in my view. But, as I 
> > > said, that's another story. I didn't think we were talking about 
> > > publication.
> > > 
> > >  On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Yes, I do. However, you seem to be missing the point I'm trying to get across here. So, let me give you an example.
> > > > A professor of mine was handing out something that he had written for the class. Since I knew that he had written it by himself recently, I asked if he could e-mail me a plain text file instead, so I wouldn't need to mess with scannning the handout. His answer to me was: "you mean a word document?" I said "no, I mean a .txt file, a plain ASCII text file." He was still confused, so I said, "like the files that you create with notepad." He said "oh, ok."
> > > > 
> > > > My point is as it was before. If all they know about their computer is how to turn it on and off, then how are they supposed to know about other platforms if they don't even know for sure what a text file?
> > > > 
> > > > If some of you on this list want to blame the ignorant professor, then maybe you should blame universities, employers, and the way we learn and work today. Universities and employers are the ones today who tell you they want your papers in 12 point font, and formatted this way or that. Now, how are we supposed to achieve that in something like notepad/emacs/pico? And if someone else is wondering how the hell this guy became a professor without knowing crap about what kinds of files he could produce on his computer, then that is a new question to examine the answer to.
> > > > Greg
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:29:50PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > > > Gregory, I keep telling you this answer, but there's some part of it that 
> > > > > you seem to still miss. What part is that?
> > > > > 
> > > > > They don't need to know a damm thing to retrieve either a text doc (no 
> > > > > formatting), or an html doc (much formatting).
> > > > > 
> > > > > They need know nothing special in order to do that. Do you understand this 
> > > > > yet?
> > > > > 
> > > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if all they know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off?
> > > > > > Greg
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote:
> > > > > > > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers,
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >          Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging on planet 
> > > > > > > Linux.  It is correct to point out that in the ideal there should not be a 
> > > > > > > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all know, the 
> > > > > > > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see the world in 
> > > > > > > the same way.  Don't you just hate it when that happens.  Smile.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >          I guess my view is that if word users want to communicate with 
> > > > > > > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the realities of 
> > > > > > > other computer platforms.  Consumer choice still has it's place!
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > -- Charlie Crawford.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > > > > > > >Amen! to that Janina!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Amanda
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > > > > > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > > > > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM
> > > > > > > >Subject: Re: anti-word
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing,
> > > > > > > >I'm
> > > > > > > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word
> > > > > > > >format
> > > > > > > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such.  Some of this whole
> > > > > > > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I
> > > > > > > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I
> > > > > > > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file
> > > > > > > > > format as some kind of standard.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >_______________________________________________
> > > > > > > >Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > -- 
> > > > > 	
> > > > > 				Janina Sajka, Director
> > > > > 				Technology Research and Development
> > > > > 				Governmental Relations Group
> > > > > 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > > > 
> > > > > Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > > > 
> > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > > > http://www.openebook.org
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > 	
> > > 				Janina Sajka, Director
> > > 				Technology Research and Development
> > > 				Governmental Relations Group
> > > 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > 
> > > Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > 
> > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > http://www.openebook.org
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> -- 
> 	
> 				Janina Sajka, Director
> 				Technology Research and Development
> 				Governmental Relations Group
> 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: anti-word

[Gregory Nowak]

Thank you Amanda.
Greg


On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 03:21:03PM -0500, Amanda Lee wrote:
> Absolutely Greg and very eloquently expressed.
> 
> Amanda
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 3:02 PM
> Subject: Re: anti-word
> 
> 
> > Janina,
> > First of all, we are not talking about publication (or at least I'm not in
> the sense of the word). Also, by taking upon your self the conversion of
> word documents into plain text, I feel that you are not only encouraging but
> also supporting the very thing you and the rest of us disscussing here are
> against.
> > If you want to teach a bird to find its own food, you won't feed it
> continually, you will let it out the window or whatever so that it can
> learn.
> > Greg
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 02:47:47PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > Greg, I run into this all the time. Since I'm the minority--the non-word
> > > user--I take it upon myself to translate the contents into something I
> can
> > > read, and usually don't bother the sendor about it unless they send me
> > > something that just doesn't translate well. That's my usual approach.
> > >
> > > If, the document in question is meant for publication as opposed to
> > > something that passes between two or three people, then it's a very
> > > different story. Then they don't get to be ignorant in my view. But, as
> I
> > > said, that's another story. I didn't think we were talking about
> > > publication.
> > >
> > >  On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > >
> > > > Yes, I do. However, you seem to be missing the point I'm trying to get
> across here. So, let me give you an example.
> > > > A professor of mine was handing out something that he had written for
> the class. Since I knew that he had written it by himself recently, I asked
> if he could e-mail me a plain text file instead, so I wouldn't need to mess
> with scannning the handout. His answer to me was: "you mean a word
> document?" I said "no, I mean a .txt file, a plain ASCII text file." He was
> still confused, so I said, "like the files that you create with notepad." He
> said "oh, ok."
> > > >
> > > > My point is as it was before. If all they know about their computer is
> how to turn it on and off, then how are they supposed to know about other
> platforms if they don't even know for sure what a text file?
> > > >
> > > > If some of you on this list want to blame the ignorant professor, then
> maybe you should blame universities, employers, and the way we learn and
> work today. Universities and employers are the ones today who tell you they
> want your papers in 12 point font, and formatted this way or that. Now, how
> are we supposed to achieve that in something like notepad/emacs/pico? And if
> someone else is wondering how the hell this guy became a professor without
> knowing crap about what kinds of files he could produce on his computer,
> then that is a new question to examine the answer to.
> > > > Greg
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:29:50PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > > > Gregory, I keep telling you this answer, but there's some part of it
> that
> > > > > you seem to still miss. What part is that?
> > > > >
> > > > > They don't need to know a damm thing to retrieve either a text doc
> (no
> > > > > formatting), or an html doc (much formatting).
> > > > >
> > > > > They need know nothing special in order to do that. Do you
> understand this
> > > > > yet?
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if
> all they know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off?
> > > > > > Greg
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote:
> > > > > > > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >          Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging on
> planet
> > > > > > > Linux.  It is correct to point out that in the ideal there
> should not be a
> > > > > > > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all
> know, the
> > > > > > > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see the
> world in
> > > > > > > the same way.  Don't you just hate it when that happens.  Smile.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >          I guess my view is that if word users want to
> communicate with
> > > > > > > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the
> realities of
> > > > > > > other computer platforms.  Consumer choice still has it's place!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -- Charlie Crawford.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > > > > > > >Amen! to that Janina!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Amanda
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > > > > > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > > > > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM
> > > > > > > >Subject: Re: anti-word
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input
> and editing,
> > > > > > > >I'm
> > > > > > > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come
> back in Word
> > > > > > > >format
> > > > > > > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such.  Some
> of this whole
> > > > > > > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and
> reads Word. I
> > > > > > > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to
> Microsoft. I
> > > > > > > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary,
> non-consensus, file
> > > > > > > > > format as some kind of standard.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >_______________________________________________
> > > > > > > >Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > >
> > > > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > > > Technology Research and Development
> > > > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > > >
> > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > > >
> > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > > > http://www.openebook.org
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > Technology Research and Development
> > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > >
> > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > >
> > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > http://www.openebook.org
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: anti-word

[Gregory Nowak]

Yes, thoes goals are just it, I try to do them all at once together. I am not a submissive individual by nature. 
Also, I know this is going in a circle, but how is the unenlightened person supposed to reach out for enlightenment if that person doesn't know there is something enlightening to reach out for?
It is also worth noting that you, Janina, Amanda Kirk W. and I along with everyone else are entitled to our ownopinions which this discussion is not meant to change, only to objectively focus on what is behind the opinion and why and if it makes sense.
Greg


On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 03:24:23PM -0500, Charles Hallenbeck wrote:
> Hmmmm - Seems like you are saying you often have two goals: (1)
> get your own work done, and (2) enlighten somebody and change the
> world. In that case I guess you should ask your professors
> etcetera to do those conversions. I guess I would defer the
> crusading for another time and concentrate on goal #1, but that
> is only my own not so humble opinion.
> 
> Seems to me that enlightenment works best when the enlightennee
> reaches out for it. For instance, if the professor etcetera
> should ask about the process of accessing his MS word goodies,
> then of course I would jump on the opportunity to outline what I
> must do to decode the damn thing to make it readable. If he then
> offers to save me the trouble next time, again I would jump at
> the offer and encourage him. But for me, I guess if I can get the
> conversion done with no fuss or muss, I would just do it and get
> on with life.
> 
> Just an old man's two cents worth. (and also a blind
> professor's).
> 
> Chuck
> 
> 
> On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:
> 
> > I'm certain that most of us suck it up and accept it but given the
> > opportunity to enlighten someone, I do and many times they find other uses
> > as well for themselves.  So it's not always about acocmodating our
> > individual needs as persons who are blind.
> >
> > Amanda Lee
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Charles Hallenbeck" <chuckh@mhonline.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 2:59 PM
> > Subject: Re: anti-word
> >
> >
> > > I do not understand why you do not just accept what he is ready
> > > to send you, since you can easily do the conversion yourself. Why
> > > expect him to do it?
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > >
> > > > I think that if I told him to just save it as a text file, he would've
> > been even more confused, unless he was right in front of his monitor able to
> > pull up the save as dialogue right there which he was not at the time.
> > > > Besides, I don't care how they save it, as long as I get the format I
> > asked for.
> > > > Greg
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 01:52:47PM -0500, Amanda Lee wrote:
> > > > > You are correct.  However, all that you needed to do was to point out
> > to
> > > > > your professor that he could easily use "Save As" from the pulldown
> > menu and
> > > > > save his documents for mailing to you in text.  I frequenlty do this
> > when I
> > > > > receive Word documents as I will today for two courses I'm taking this
> > week
> > > > > on Networks and Advanced TCP/IP.  These I will download to my
> > notetaker as
> > > > > they are smaller and there is a book reader function in my notetaker
> > and so
> > > > > I can read these files while I'm in the taxi going to work or
> > whatever.
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree that the Universities are at the root of much of this but ...
> > they
> > > > > really don't need to know nor do anything other than press the right
> > buttons
> > > > > and click on the desired choice.
> > > > >
> > > > > Amanda Lee
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu>
> > > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 1:24 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: anti-word
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Yes, I do. However, you seem to be missing the point I'm trying to
> > get
> > > > > across here. So, let me give you an example.
> > > > > > A professor of mine was handing out something that he had written
> > for the
> > > > > class. Since I knew that he had written it by himself recently, I
> > asked if
> > > > > he could e-mail me a plain text file instead, so I wouldn't need to
> > mess
> > > > > with scannning the handout. His answer to me was: "you mean a word
> > > > > document?" I said "no, I mean a .txt file, a plain ASCII text file."
> > He was
> > > > > still confused, so I said, "like the files that you create with
> > notepad." He
> > > > > said "oh, ok."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My point is as it was before. If all they know about their computer
> > is how
> > > > > to turn it on and off, then how are they supposed to know about other
> > > > > platforms if they don't even know for sure what a text file?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If some of you on this list want to blame the ignorant professor,
> > then
> > > > > maybe you should blame universities, employers, and the way we learn
> > and
> > > > > work today. Universities and employers are the ones today who tell you
> > they
> > > > > want your papers in 12 point font, and formatted this way or that.
> > Now, how
> > > > > are we supposed to achieve that in something like notepad/emacs/pico?
> > And if
> > > > > someone else is wondering how the hell this guy became a professor
> > without
> > > > > knowing crap about what kinds of files he could produce on his
> > computer,
> > > > > then that is a new question to examine the answer to.
> > > > > > Greg
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:29:50PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > > > > > Gregory, I keep telling you this answer, but there's some part of
> > it
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > you seem to still miss. What part is that?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > They don't need to know a damm thing to retrieve either a text doc
> > (no
> > > > > > > formatting), or an html doc (much formatting).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > They need know nothing special in order to do that. Do you
> > understand
> > > > > this
> > > > > > > yet?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if
> > all
> > > > > they know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off?
> > > > > > > > Greg
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford
> > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >          Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging
> > on
> > > > > planet
> > > > > > > > > Linux.  It is correct to point out that in the ideal there
> > should
> > > > > not be a
> > > > > > > > > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all
> > know,
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see
> > the
> > > > > world in
> > > > > > > > > the same way.  Don't you just hate it when that happens.
> > Smile.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >          I guess my view is that if word users want to
> > communicate
> > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the
> > realities
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > other computer platforms.  Consumer choice still has it's
> > place!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > -- Charlie Crawford.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >Amen! to that Janina!
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >Amanda
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > > > > > > > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > > > > > > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM
> > > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: anti-word
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input
> > and
> > > > > editing,
> > > > > > > > > >I'm
> > > > > > > > > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come
> > back in
> > > > > Word
> > > > > > > > > >format
> > > > > > > > > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such.
> > Some of
> > > > > this whole
> > > > > > > > > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and
> > reads
> > > > > Word. I
> > > > > > > > > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to
> > > > > Microsoft. I
> > > > > > > > > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary,
> > > > > non-consensus, file
> > > > > > > > > > > format as some kind of standard.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > >Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > > > > > Technology Research and Development
> > > > > > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > > > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > > > > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > > > > > http://www.openebook.org
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > > *<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*
> > > Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh
> > > The Moon is New
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> *<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*
> Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh
> The Moon is New
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: anti-word

[Gregory Nowak]

Uhhhm, excuse me, but I didn't write the original message that you quoted after yours. Can we please get names straight if we're going to reply to a person's comments atack or otherwise directly?
Greg


On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 05:06:55PM -0500, Amanda Lee wrote:
> Not really Greg,
>  It is not acceptible to initiate personal attacks and we appreciate that.
> 
> Having said that.  I have been gainfully employed by the Private
> Sector/Verizon Communications for 10 years of my employed life and I have
> advocated for myself very effectively yet stood my ground.   I've also
> worked nearly 9 years for Department of Treasury, Internal Revenue Service
> as a senior programmer analyst.  I know for a fact! that advocating for what
> is in the best interest of my ability to perform my work effectively has
> enabled me rather than disabled me from the successes I have enjoyed.
> O'yeah, feathers get ruffled from time to time but that is just a part of
> life in general.  One must stand his or her ground in order to overcome
> barriers and nobody said it's easy nor pleasant and especially that one is
> required to cave into what those who are otherwise clueless want to dictate.
> 
> Maybe it's time to drop this thread though as we've gone beyond the topic of
> Speakup ha!  Still the reason why the majority of us are here in the first
> place is simply because we know that  Microsoft isn't the appropriate
> solution to Accessibility to persons who are blind or vision impaired.
> 
> Amanda Lee
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kirk Wood" <cpt.kirk@1tree.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 4:56 PM
> Subject: Re: anti-word
> 
> 
> > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > Kirk, I don't give a damm if that's what they expect. From me, they
> don't
> > > get.
> > >
> > > Sometimes, this turns into an educational opportunity. Usually, I don't
> > > hear anything one way or the other.
> >
> > It must be nice to *NOT* work for a real company. Janina, you proved my
> > profound belief that you lack real world experiance. Most people would
> > simply be unemployed taking that stance.
> >
> > =======
> > Kirk Wood
> > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
> >
> > Nowlan's Theory:
> >         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
> >         the next freeway exit.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: anti-word

[Amanda Lee]

I'm sorry I meant to say Kirk Wood.

Amana

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 5:55 PM
Subject: Re: anti-word


> Uhhhm, excuse me, but I didn't write the original message that you quoted
after yours. Can we please get names straight if we're going to reply to a
person's comments atack or otherwise directly?
> Greg
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 05:06:55PM -0500, Amanda Lee wrote:
> > Not really Greg,
> >  It is not acceptible to initiate personal attacks and we appreciate
that.
> >
> > Having said that.  I have been gainfully employed by the Private
> > Sector/Verizon Communications for 10 years of my employed life and I
have
> > advocated for myself very effectively yet stood my ground.   I've also
> > worked nearly 9 years for Department of Treasury, Internal Revenue
Service
> > as a senior programmer analyst.  I know for a fact! that advocating for
what
> > is in the best interest of my ability to perform my work effectively has
> > enabled me rather than disabled me from the successes I have enjoyed.
> > O'yeah, feathers get ruffled from time to time but that is just a part
of
> > life in general.  One must stand his or her ground in order to overcome
> > barriers and nobody said it's easy nor pleasant and especially that one
is
> > required to cave into what those who are otherwise clueless want to
dictate.
> >
> > Maybe it's time to drop this thread though as we've gone beyond the
topic of
> > Speakup ha!  Still the reason why the majority of us are here in the
first
> > place is simply because we know that  Microsoft isn't the appropriate
> > solution to Accessibility to persons who are blind or vision impaired.
> >
> > Amanda Lee
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Kirk Wood" <cpt.kirk@1tree.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 4:56 PM
> > Subject: Re: anti-word
> >
> >
> > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > > Kirk, I don't give a damm if that's what they expect. From me, they
> > don't
> > > > get.
> > > >
> > > > Sometimes, this turns into an educational opportunity. Usually, I
don't
> > > > hear anything one way or the other.
> > >
> > > It must be nice to *NOT* work for a real company. Janina, you proved
my
> > > profound belief that you lack real world experiance. Most people would
> > > simply be unemployed taking that stance.
> > >
> > > =======
> > > Kirk Wood
> > > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
> > >
> > > Nowlan's Theory:
> > >         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
> > >         the next freeway exit.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: anti-word

[Jason]

> Still the reason why the majority of us are here in the
> first place is simply because we know that  Microsoft isn't the appropriate
> solution to Accessibility to persons who are blind or vision impaired.

Heck, Microsoft isn't even an appropriate solution for those who aren't blind 
or vision impaired; Linux for those who know computers, Macs for those who 
don't.

   <ducks and runs for cover>

(yes this was meant *only* for a good laugh)

Re: anti-word

[Amanda Lee]

Hahahahahahahah! agreed! wonder why Kirk Wood is even bothering to
participate since he's been so brainwashed!  Bigger certainly isn't better
by any means!

I'm tired of this thread! think I'll take-up Mandolin playing or something!
it's more peaceful!

Amanda Lee

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jason" <unleet@qwest.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 6:01 PM
Subject: Re: anti-word


> > Still the reason why the majority of us are here in the
> > first place is simply because we know that  Microsoft isn't the
appropriate
> > solution to Accessibility to persons who are blind or vision impaired.
>
> Heck, Microsoft isn't even an appropriate solution for those who aren't
blind
> or vision impaired; Linux for those who know computers, Macs for those who
> don't.
>
>    <ducks and runs for cover>
>
> (yes this was meant *only* for a good laugh)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: anti-word

[Amanda Lee]

Hmmm Mr. Know it all Kirk! currious to me then why when I was job-searching
in July that most online jobs resources specifically requested that resumes
be sent via plain text only.  This is simply because many utilize electronic
retrieval systems to store, manage and to distribute resumes.



Amanda Lee

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kirk Wood" <cpt.kirk@1tree.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: anti-word


> On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:
> > Hahahahahahahah! agreed! wonder why Kirk Wood is even bothering to
> > participate since he's been so brainwashed!  Bigger certainly isn't
better
> > by any means!
>
> Well, for someone stating personal attacks aren't appropriate you sure are
> good at it. First, at least I an spell my name correctly (Amana). Second,
> I don't feel word is better. It is used and many people have no choice in
> platforms at work. I use Linux at home and macroslop at work. Then again,
> I am sighted so perhaps not so damn bitter about corperate reality.
>
> The simple fact is that there aren't enough jobs in government
> (Amanda) and advocacy groups (Janina) to employ all the blind
> people. There are many people who are faced with harsh reality. A resume
> in Word format will get more attention then one in text format. And making
> the same thing in html takes way more skill then in word.
>
> Is it a good thing that word is so accepted? NO, it isn't. But it is
> reality. And when people stop being bitter and deal with reality they do
> better in life.
>
> I have tried for a year and a half to intorduce Linux as a server
> platform. But unfortunately, the choice hasn't been there. Because some
> people refuse to consider the costs my workplace is mired helplessly in
> macroslop. So I have two choices. I can be bitter and be left behind, or I
> can learn macroslop even if it is inferior.
>
> I think using linux at home is great. Using it when possible in the
> working world is even better. But going back to the original problem - not
> everyone has the nicity of refusing to deal with word files.
>
> =======
> Kirk Wood
> Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
>
> Nowlan's Theory:
>         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
>         the next freeway exit.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: anti-word

[Kirk Wood]

On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:
> Hahahahahahahah! agreed! wonder why Kirk Wood is even bothering to
> participate since he's been so brainwashed!  Bigger certainly isn't better
> by any means!

Well, for someone stating personal attacks aren't appropriate you sure are
good at it. First, at least I an spell my name correctly (Amana). Second,
I don't feel word is better. It is used and many people have no choice in
platforms at work. I use Linux at home and macroslop at work. Then again,
I am sighted so perhaps not so damn bitter about corperate reality.

The simple fact is that there aren't enough jobs in government
(Amanda) and advocacy groups (Janina) to employ all the blind
people. There are many people who are faced with harsh reality. A resume
in Word format will get more attention then one in text format. And making
the same thing in html takes way more skill then in word.

Is it a good thing that word is so accepted? NO, it isn't. But it is
reality. And when people stop being bitter and deal with reality they do
better in life.

I have tried for a year and a half to intorduce Linux as a server
platform. But unfortunately, the choice hasn't been there. Because some
people refuse to consider the costs my workplace is mired helplessly in
macroslop. So I have two choices. I can be bitter and be left behind, or I
can learn macroslop even if it is inferior.

I think using linux at home is great. Using it when possible in the
working world is even better. But going back to the original problem - not
everyone has the nicity of refusing to deal with word files.

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.

Re: anti-word

[Janina Sajka]

How do you do that in Word? How do you get it to show its codes for 
carriage return, tab, bold, font, margin setting, etc., etc, all in the 
stream of data as they exist sequentially in the file. I'm talking byte by 
byte. How do you do that?
 On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Kirk Wood wrote:

> On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Jason wrote:
> > (Anybody remember Word Perfect for DOS? It would let you veiw the formatting 
> > codes in the document and delete stupid mistakes like the bold tag that 
> > reversed the emphasis in your whole document... well HTML can do that too, 
> > Word can't)
> 
> And now the lack of knowing a product is perfectly illustrated. You can
> indeed look at formating information in Word. But there is less need to
> *if* you know the program.
> 
> =======
> Kirk Wood
> Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
> 
> Nowlan's Theory:
>         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
>         the next freeway exit.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: anti-word

[Janina Sajka]

Government? I thought she worked for one of those telco's?

And, if my job isn't real, how come it pays in real money?

Don't worry. I won't ask you to disclose your retirement. This isn't about 
whose XYZ is bigger.

On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Kirk Wood wrote:

> On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:
> > Hahahahahahahah! agreed! wonder why Kirk Wood is even bothering to
> > participate since he's been so brainwashed!  Bigger certainly isn't better
> > by any means!
> 
> Well, for someone stating personal attacks aren't appropriate you sure are
> good at it. First, at least I an spell my name correctly (Amana). Second,
> I don't feel word is better. It is used and many people have no choice in
> platforms at work. I use Linux at home and macroslop at work. Then again,
> I am sighted so perhaps not so damn bitter about corperate reality.
> 
> The simple fact is that there aren't enough jobs in government
> (Amanda) and advocacy groups (Janina) to employ all the blind
> people. There are many people who are faced with harsh reality. A resume
> in Word format will get more attention then one in text format. And making
> the same thing in html takes way more skill then in word.
> 
> Is it a good thing that word is so accepted? NO, it isn't. But it is
> reality. And when people stop being bitter and deal with reality they do
> better in life.
> 
> I have tried for a year and a half to intorduce Linux as a server
> platform. But unfortunately, the choice hasn't been there. Because some
> people refuse to consider the costs my workplace is mired helplessly in
> macroslop. So I have two choices. I can be bitter and be left behind, or I
> can learn macroslop even if it is inferior.
> 
> I think using linux at home is great. Using it when possible in the
> working world is even better. But going back to the original problem - not
> everyone has the nicity of refusing to deal with word files.
> 
> =======
> Kirk Wood
> Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
> 
> Nowlan's Theory:
>         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
>         the next freeway exit.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

word settings

[Kirk Wood]

If you need to see formating characters in Word, click on Tools, options
and go to the View tab. There you have have a host of non-printing
characters shown to you. It doesn't show every character, but does reveal
most. There is a good chance that the charcaters won't read with a screen
reader though.

I don't believe that Word deserves its place in society. I personally
think that it will eventually falter as it gets more and more
bloated. There are some people who notice that a file from word 2000 is
25% larger then the same file in word 97. One day people will notice that
there are virtually no viruses written for non windows platforms. Until
then, I will continue to upkeep my macroslop skill set.

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.

Re: word settings

[Janina Sajka]

On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Kirk Wood wrote:

> It doesn't show every character, but does reveal most.

So, it doesn't do the same thing WordPerfect does. Or emacs. Or html ...
So, are you now retracting your categorical claim of equivalence between 
Word and WordPerfect in this regard?

On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Kirk Wood wrote:

> If you need to see formating characters in Word, click on Tools, options
> and go to the View tab. There you have have a host of non-printing
> characters shown to you. It doesn't show every character, but does reveal
> most. There is a good chance that the charcaters won't read with a screen
> reader though.
> 
> I don't believe that Word deserves its place in society. I personally
> think that it will eventually falter as it gets more and more
> bloated. There are some people who notice that a file from word 2000 is
> 25% larger then the same file in word 97. One day people will notice that
> there are virtually no viruses written for non windows platforms. Until
> then, I will continue to upkeep my macroslop skill set.
> 
> =======
> Kirk Wood
> Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
> 
> Nowlan's Theory:
>         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
>         the next freeway exit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: anti-word

[Kirk Wood]

I find it interesting that there has been so much focus on the inferiority
of linux. The whole thread started because a list member needed access to
word files. (Oh damn, there is that need to deal with the reality that
many entities rely on the software.) Then there was a desire to make
changes and convert back. Two individuals seem to think there is never a
reason to go back to word. That is fine. But then the poor people who are
stuck with the need are just that stuck. 

Now perhaps the thread can die. Obviously some will never accept that not
everyone can just dismiss word as a format they may need. That is fine.

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.

Re: anti-word

[Janina Sajka]

Yes, it probably is time to drop the thread. But I can't let you suggest 
that an inability to produce a file to Microsoft's unpublished file format 
specifications demonstrates any kind of inferiority on the part of linux, 
because it doesn't.



 On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Kirk Wood wrote:

> I find it interesting that there has been so much focus on the inferiority
> of linux. The whole thread started because a list member needed access to
> word files. (Oh damn, there is that need to deal with the reality that
> many entities rely on the software.) Then there was a desire to make
> changes and convert back. Two individuals seem to think there is never a
> reason to go back to word. That is fine. But then the poor people who are
> stuck with the need are just that stuck. 
> 
> Now perhaps the thread can die. Obviously some will never accept that not
> everyone can just dismiss word as a format they may need. That is fine.
> 
> =======
> Kirk Wood
> Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
> 
> Nowlan's Theory:
>         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
>         the next freeway exit.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: anti-word

[Amanda Lee]

Hahahahahahahaha!  well they are talking about putting all I.T. off shore by
2004 so I probably won't get to ever retire! or from Verizon.  Yes I worked
for the Federal Government for almost 9 years hahaha! that is why Section
508 is very close to my heart.  I'm trying to find another position back in
the Government to deal with Section 508 issues.  I'll probably never retire
from one organization but that is the way it is these days.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 8:03 PM
Subject: Re: anti-word


> Government? I thought she worked for one of those telco's?
>
> And, if my job isn't real, how come it pays in real money?
>
> Don't worry. I won't ask you to disclose your retirement. This isn't about
> whose XYZ is bigger.
>
> On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Kirk Wood wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:
> > > Hahahahahahahah! agreed! wonder why Kirk Wood is even bothering to
> > > participate since he's been so brainwashed!  Bigger certainly isn't
better
> > > by any means!
> >
> > Well, for someone stating personal attacks aren't appropriate you sure
are
> > good at it. First, at least I an spell my name correctly (Amana).
Second,
> > I don't feel word is better. It is used and many people have no choice
in
> > platforms at work. I use Linux at home and macroslop at work. Then
again,
> > I am sighted so perhaps not so damn bitter about corperate reality.
> >
> > The simple fact is that there aren't enough jobs in government
> > (Amanda) and advocacy groups (Janina) to employ all the blind
> > people. There are many people who are faced with harsh reality. A resume
> > in Word format will get more attention then one in text format. And
making
> > the same thing in html takes way more skill then in word.
> >
> > Is it a good thing that word is so accepted? NO, it isn't. But it is
> > reality. And when people stop being bitter and deal with reality they do
> > better in life.
> >
> > I have tried for a year and a half to intorduce Linux as a server
> > platform. But unfortunately, the choice hasn't been there. Because some
> > people refuse to consider the costs my workplace is mired helplessly in
> > macroslop. So I have two choices. I can be bitter and be left behind, or
I
> > can learn macroslop even if it is inferior.
> >
> > I think using linux at home is great. Using it when possible in the
> > working world is even better. But going back to the original problem -
not
> > everyone has the nicity of refusing to deal with word files.
> >
> > =======
> > Kirk Wood
> > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
> >
> > Nowlan's Theory:
> >         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
> >         the next freeway exit.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: anti-word

[Amanda Lee]

O'no! I sure as hell! will never "need" Word when there's a real
wordprocessor like WordPerfect and I'll be certain there is.

Amanda Lee


----- Original Message -----
From: "Kirk Wood" <cpt.kirk@1tree.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 8:21 PM
Subject: Re: anti-word


> I find it interesting that there has been so much focus on the inferiority
> of linux. The whole thread started because a list member needed access to
> word files. (Oh damn, there is that need to deal with the reality that
> many entities rely on the software.) Then there was a desire to make
> changes and convert back. Two individuals seem to think there is never a
> reason to go back to word. That is fine. But then the poor people who are
> stuck with the need are just that stuck.
>
> Now perhaps the thread can die. Obviously some will never accept that not
> everyone can just dismiss word as a format they may need. That is fine.
>
> =======
> Kirk Wood
> Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
>
> Nowlan's Theory:
>         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
>         the next freeway exit.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: anti-word

[Gregory Nowak]

I'm just cerious ... what is a sighted person doing on a speech program for linux list? Don't be offended Kirk W., I'm just wondering.
Greg


On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 06:36:55PM -0600, Kirk Wood wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:
> > Hahahahahahahah! agreed! wonder why Kirk Wood is even bothering to
> > participate since he's been so brainwashed!  Bigger certainly isn't better
> > by any means!
> 
> Well, for someone stating personal attacks aren't appropriate you sure are
> good at it. First, at least I an spell my name correctly (Amana). Second,
> I don't feel word is better. It is used and many people have no choice in
> platforms at work. I use Linux at home and macroslop at work. Then again,
> I am sighted so perhaps not so damn bitter about corperate reality.
> 
> The simple fact is that there aren't enough jobs in government
> (Amanda) and advocacy groups (Janina) to employ all the blind
> people. There are many people who are faced with harsh reality. A resume
> in Word format will get more attention then one in text format. And making
> the same thing in html takes way more skill then in word.
> 
> Is it a good thing that word is so accepted? NO, it isn't. But it is
> reality. And when people stop being bitter and deal with reality they do
> better in life.
> 
> I have tried for a year and a half to intorduce Linux as a server
> platform. But unfortunately, the choice hasn't been there. Because some
> people refuse to consider the costs my workplace is mired helplessly in
> macroslop. So I have two choices. I can be bitter and be left behind, or I
> can learn macroslop even if it is inferior.
> 
> I think using linux at home is great. Using it when possible in the
> working world is even better. But going back to the original problem - not
> everyone has the nicity of refusing to deal with word files.
> 
> =======
> Kirk Wood
> Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
> 
> Nowlan's Theory:
>         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
>         the next freeway exit.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: anti-word

[Thomas Ward]

Well, as far as I have understood it the reason Microsoft has been allowed
to get MS Word out to the masses is simplisity.
It is easier for sighted users to move the mouse to the toolbar, click
center, and be done with it. Ask any number of Joe Smo users, and they would
gripe to high heaven if they had to do all documents using something like an
html tag such as:

<BR><CENTER> Chapter 1. </CENTER>

On seeing this debate I can see opening pico and writing a paper in html to
be useful. The reason for a blind user we don't have to double check the
wordprocessor to make sure it did what it clamed. if there is a <I> </I>
around a certain place of text we know it will be in italics.
However, there are many businesses that won't budge. They want to import
there Word, Excel, and access files into Linux and demand some cross
platform compatibility.



----- Original Message -----
From: Gregory Nowak <gnowak1@uic.edu>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 12:14 PM
Subject: Re: anti-word


> And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if all they
know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off?
> Greg
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote:
> > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers,
> >
> >          Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging on planet
> > Linux.  It is correct to point out that in the ideal there should not be
a
> > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all know, the
> > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see the world
in
> > the same way.  Don't you just hate it when that happens.  Smile.
> >
> >          I guess my view is that if word users want to communicate with
> > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the realities of
> > other computer platforms.  Consumer choice still has it's place!
> >
> > -- Charlie Crawford.
> >
> >
> >
> > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > >Amen! to that Janina!
> > >
> > >Amanda
> > >
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM
> > >Subject: Re: anti-word
> > >
> > >
> > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and
editing,
> > >I'm
> > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in
Word
> > >format
> > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such.  Some of this
whole
> > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word.
I
> > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I
> > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus,
file
> > > > format as some kind of standard.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Speakup mailing list
> > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: anti-word

[Thomas Ward]

I sure remember. I used WP51 for dos long after all my class mates were
moving on to Office 95, and I loved Wordperfect 5.1.
It is a shame i can't find the diskettes, because I'd slap it on my Linux
machine with dosemu.
WP for dos was [perhaps the best wordprocessor ever made.


>
> > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Jason wrote:
> > > (Anybody remember Word Perfect for DOS? It would let you veiw the
formatting
> > > codes in the document and delete stupid mistakes like the bold tag
that
> > > reversed the emphasis in your whole document... well HTML can do that
too,
> > > Word can't)
> >
> > And now the lack of knowing a product is perfectly illustrated. You can
> > indeed look at formating information in Word. But there is less need to
> > *if* you know the program.
> >
> > =======
> > Kirk Wood
> > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
> >
> > Nowlan's Theory:
> >         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
> >         the next freeway exit.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: anti-word

[Thomas Ward]

Well, I am seeing a trend. Linux is becoming slightly more popular, and my
Uncle's company is looking at Star Office to replace MS Office. The hold up?
Well, the company wants to be able to move all there Office 2000 files to
and from Star Office.

Of course I mentioned Wordperfect 2000 for Linux which might help his
company solve this issue.

Most people I know write their resumes out in html, and it has been well
recieved. Probably because with html you can get really specific and nice
looking formatting.



----- Original Message -----
From: Kirk Wood <cpt.kirk@1tree.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: anti-word


> On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:
> > Hahahahahahahah! agreed! wonder why Kirk Wood is even bothering to
> > participate since he's been so brainwashed!  Bigger certainly isn't
better
> > by any means!
>
> Well, for someone stating personal attacks aren't appropriate you sure are
> good at it. First, at least I an spell my name correctly (Amana). Second,
> I don't feel word is better. It is used and many people have no choice in
> platforms at work. I use Linux at home and macroslop at work. Then again,
> I am sighted so perhaps not so damn bitter about corperate reality.
>
> The simple fact is that there aren't enough jobs in government
> (Amanda) and advocacy groups (Janina) to employ all the blind
> people. There are many people who are faced with harsh reality. A resume
> in Word format will get more attention then one in text format. And making
> the same thing in html takes way more skill then in word.
>
> Is it a good thing that word is so accepted? NO, it isn't. But it is
> reality. And when people stop being bitter and deal with reality they do
> better in life.
>
> I have tried for a year and a half to intorduce Linux as a server
> platform. But unfortunately, the choice hasn't been there. Because some
> people refuse to consider the costs my workplace is mired helplessly in
> macroslop. So I have two choices. I can be bitter and be left behind, or I
> can learn macroslop even if it is inferior.
>
> I think using linux at home is great. Using it when possible in the
> working world is even better. But going back to the original problem - not
> everyone has the nicity of refusing to deal with word files.
>
> =======
> Kirk Wood
> Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
>
> Nowlan's Theory:
>         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
>         the next freeway exit.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: anti-word

[Thomas Ward]

Hi, well an attitude like that it's a wonder you haven't been fired. Most
colleges or employers tell me they want it a certain way, and I do it.

What does shoving  Linux down the throat of every uneducated person do
besides make them angry? Face the facts they don't know any different. All
the
business/college world cares about is if it works.

It comes down to they tell you what to do, and you tell them what to do.
Eventually it is a fight, and someone gets the screws.


Isn't there anyone on this list with any sense of acomidation? That can do
what is needed to get the job done without making every uneducated user of
Microslop out to be morons when they have their own reasons?


----- Original Message -----
From: Janina Sajka <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 2:51 PM
Subject: Re: anti-word


> Kirk, I don't give a damm if that's what they expect. From me, they don't
> get.
>
> Sometimes, this turns into an educational opportunity. Usually, I don't
> hear anything one way or the other.
>
> On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Kirk Wood wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I
> > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I
> > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file
> > > format as some kind of standard.
> >
> > While it may be arrogant, it is reality. The reality is that business
> > documents are often in word format, and if they send you a document to
> > edit in word format, they expect it back in the same format. I suppose
it
> > is arrogant, but then again companies have been arrogant for many
> > years. They still have the gall to tell you what is acceptable to wear
and
> > expect you to schedule your life arround them.
> >
> > =======
> > Kirk Wood
> > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
> >
> > Nowlan's Theory:
> >         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
> >         the next freeway exit.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: anti-word

[Shaun Oliver]

On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:

> On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
>
> > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing, I'm
> > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word format
> > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such.  Some of this whole
> > anti Word sounds arogant to me.
>
>
> I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I
> regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I
> further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file
> format as some kind of standard.
>
Well, like it or not, this is the standard we need to either abide by or
change. Right at the moment all I'm seeing is a whole lot of bitching
about ms word and such.
to revisit Kirk w's post a few days ago, we need to take into account that
microsoft word is the enforced some would say prefered word processor that
is widely used in the workplace today.
We need to be mindful of this when we decide not to give a fuck about
formatting and presentation.
I've had it pointed out to me in no uncertain terms that this is the way
things are.
so let's just stop fucking around with bitching and either do something
about it or fucking well live with it!!
I don't like microsoft any more than alot of you do but like it or not,
it's here and we have to deal with it.
if microsoft on the other hand were to get things right in the first place
and not be so kind as to stoop to exploitative and scare tactics etc, we
probably wouldn't even be having this discussion.
I'm sorry for my use of colourful metafores but that's just how ai see the
whole thing.
 >
> _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

-- 
Shaun Oliver

Marriage is a three ring circus:
engagement ring, wedding ring, and suffering.
                -- Roger Price

Email: shauno@goanna.net.au
Icq: 76958435

Re: anti-word

[Shaun Oliver]

On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Kirk Wood wrote:

> I hope for the sake of blind people Janina speaks for herself and not the
> AFB. Reality strike here. Many people use their computer for primarily
> business reasons. And as such they are stuck with the arrogant rules of a
> business. For some stupid reason us sighted folks prefer text that is
> formatted. And no Janina, html and text don't give the level of formatting
> that word does. Sorry, but does not computer. Will not compute.

Here here!! This is my point exactly.
We cannot expect everyone to conform to our way of doing things just
because our screen reader or sheer stubbenness won't allow us to conform
to everyone else.
I also had it pointed out to me that web pages for example should have a
degree of prettyness to them or no one will stay long enough for your page
to be viable.
Let's face it, sightlings want the pretty pictures and the animated gif
images. all you need to do ia add a textual tag to the thing so we know
what's there.
I buy a magazine every month called pc world, and in this magazine they
pull apart web pages and tell you why it works or why it will fail
dismally.
so just be mindful of what sighted people want to see when you design a
web page.
Just because your screen reader can read it, doesn't mean everyone else
who has sight can.
 > > ======= > Kirk Wood > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
>
> Nowlan's Theory:
>         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
>         the next freeway exit.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

-- 
Shaun Oliver

Marriage is a three ring circus:
engagement ring, wedding ring, and suffering.
                -- Roger Price

Email: shauno@goanna.net.au
Icq: 76958435

replacing m$ (was Re: anti-word)

[Kirk Wood]

On Mon, 14 Jan 2002, Thomas Ward wrote:
> Well, I am seeing a trend. Linux is becoming slightly more popular, and my
> Uncle's company is looking at Star Office to replace MS Office. The hold up?
> Well, the company wants to be able to move all there Office 2000 files to
> and from Star Office.

Actually, this is a good time to point out what the new "features" of
office 2000 are. The only real one noticed by most is that the documents
when placed on a m$ server easily become web pages and improved look of
exported docs to web pages when not using m$ servers. This is the only
"improvement" for the suite.

Now to look at the cost: All office 2000 programs take longer to
load. They take more disk space on the drive. Their documents take more
disk space (as much as 40% more). 

The solution is simply to back pedal to office 97. Then they can start the
process of leaving office all together if they choose. They can use Star
Office in a winblows environment seamlessly. They can also seemlessly use
WordPerfect across the platforms. Actually, they can use even most office
2000 docs without trouble. Outside of stuffing extra stuff into the docs
for web translation office 2000 is supposed to be backward compatible. The
database program is not however. 

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.

Re: anti-word

[Kirk Wood]

On Mon, 14 Jan 2002, Thomas Ward wrote:
> Hi, well an attitude like that it's a wonder you haven't been fired. Most
> colleges or employers tell me they want it a certain way, and I do it.

This is (and has been) my one point in the whole argument. Some people
don't have the luxery of telling others that the directions don't apply to
them. And further, I have seen colege classes that now want papers turned
in as a Word file.

Is forcing you to do it this what what I see as right? NO. Is it
reality? YES.

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.

Re: anti-word

[Buddy Brannan]

Heh. Since Windows just opens something according to its file
extension, why not just write something up in HTML and call it
foo.doc? Who'd know the difference (as someone else said)?
-- 
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV/2  | I choose you to take up all of my time.
Email: davros@ycardz.com | I choose you because you're funny and kind
                         | I want easy people from now on.
                         | --the Nields

Re: anti-word

[Steve Holmes]

I agree; I was just thinking in terms of someone updating the document and
returning it in the same format as originally sent.  This could especially
be the case if say, several people might be sharing a document.  A common
format should be agreed upon.  Yes, I wish at that point the "agreed upon"
standard format would be something more universal than MS Word.  It's
pretty sick how big always seems to win the common "standard" game.

While I am thinking about it, I do recall a while back sending people a
resume formatted using Word perfect and how many times they couldn't
import it into Word or whatever and how we ended up on settling the matter
by sending it in text format instead.  I recall some other parties
requesting the thing in text strait away to avoid such compatibility
problems.

On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:

> On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
>
> > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing, I'm
> > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word format
> > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such.  Some of this whole
> > anti Word sounds arogant to me.
>
>
> I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I
> regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I
> further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file
> format as some kind of standard.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: anti-word

[Steve Holmes]

Yes and that reminds me of a similar experience I had at work one time
where I had to practically walk through the procedure with a documentation
gal on how to save the document in something other than word.  At the
time, I had little or no access to windows yet and I needed this file in
.TXT format.

Same problem, isn't it.  They just don't use these features.

On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:

> Yes, I do. However, you seem to be missing the point I'm trying to get across here. So, let me give you an example.
> A professor of mine was handing out something that he had written for the class. Since I knew that he had written it by himself recently, I asked if he could e-mail me a plain text file instead, so I wouldn't need to mess with scannning the handout. His answer to me was: "you mean a word document?" I said "no, I mean a .txt file, a plain ASCII text file." He was still confused, so I said, "like the files that you create with notepad." He said "oh, ok."
>
> My point is as it was before. If all they know about their computer is how to turn it on and off, then how are they supposed to know about other platforms if they don't even know for sure what a text file?
>
> If some of you on this list want to blame the ignorant professor, then maybe you should blame universities, employers, and the way we learn and work today. Universities and employers are the ones today who tell you they want your papers in 12 point font, and formatted this way or that. Now, how are we supposed to achieve that in something like notepad/emacs/pico? And if someone else is wondering how the hell this guy became a professor without knowing crap about what kinds of files he could produce on his computer, then that is a new question to examine the answer to.
> Greg
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:29:50PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > Gregory, I keep telling you this answer, but there's some part of it that
> > you seem to still miss. What part is that?
> >
> > They don't need to know a damm thing to retrieve either a text doc (no
> > formatting), or an html doc (much formatting).
> >
> > They need know nothing special in order to do that. Do you understand this
> > yet?
> >
> > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> >
> > > And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if all they know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off?
> > > Greg
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote:
> > > > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers,
> > > >
> > > >          Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging on planet
> > > > Linux.  It is correct to point out that in the ideal there should not be a
> > > > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all know, the
> > > > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see the world in
> > > > the same way.  Don't you just hate it when that happens.  Smile.
> > > >
> > > >          I guess my view is that if word users want to communicate with
> > > > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the realities of
> > > > other computer platforms.  Consumer choice still has it's place!
> > > >
> > > > -- Charlie Crawford.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > > > >Amen! to that Janina!
> > > > >
> > > > >Amanda
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM
> > > > >Subject: Re: anti-word
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing,
> > > > >I'm
> > > > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word
> > > > >format
> > > > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such.  Some of this whole
> > > > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I
> > > > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I
> > > > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file
> > > > > > format as some kind of standard.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >_______________________________________________
> > > > >Speakup mailing list
> > > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > 				Janina Sajka, Director
> > 				Technology Research and Development
> > 				Governmental Relations Group
> > 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: anti-word

[Charles Crawford]

Easy, they see a text file in the response.
-- Charlie.
At 11:14 AM 1/13/02 -0600, you wrote:
>And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if all they 
>know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off?
>Greg
>
>
>On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote:
> > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers,
> >
> >          Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging on planet
> > Linux.  It is correct to point out that in the ideal there should not be a
> > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all know, the
> > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see the world in
> > the same way.  Don't you just hate it when that happens.  Smile.
> >
> >          I guess my view is that if word users want to communicate with
> > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the realities of
> > other computer platforms.  Consumer choice still has it's place!
> >
> > -- Charlie Crawford.
> >
> >
> >
> > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > >Amen! to that Janina!
> > >
> > >Amanda
> > >
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM
> > >Subject: Re: anti-word
> > >
> > >
> > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing,
> > >I'm
> > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word
> > >format
> > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such.  Some of 
> this whole
> > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I
> > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I
> > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file
> > > > format as some kind of standard.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Speakup mailing list
> > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: anti-word

[Charles Crawford]

Hi,

	Well I guess I did not want to get into a big duscussion of this, but you 
raise points worth answering and thanks for doing so.

	People will not know anything about anything unless there is an original 
introduction to it.  So if the Prof get a text file, then he would seek to 
know how to handle it.  Just as his becoming enlightened by your reference 
to notepad, so too would he be in a position to understand use a text 
document.  Whether a text document is appropriate to the setting is a good 
question though.

	If we left it at that, then all would be more or less settled, but what 
about our rights as blind folks to access?  Are they conditioned upon 
having to use what the employer for example uses?  Well, the truth is that 
they aare.  An employer has the right to utilize any software they want and 
as long as we too can use it, then we have to learn it.

	So the challenge to blind linux users is to relate to the windows world 
not as an us versus them, but as a reality check on others who use 
windows.  It gets a bit tricky because of the accessibility issues and the 
relative ease of use issue.  If we have to go climbing mountains that 
others do not have to climb to use a product, then that is not equal 
access, but our success in getting at least a couple of Windows programs to 
work well with access techincurrs a rsponsibility on our part to use that 
technology when required.

	So we are back where we began.  We may not like having to use Ms-Word or 
Ms-anything, but if it is the standard that is accessible as well, then we 
have to do it.  Responding to an MS-Word attachment with a text file is ok 
since it equally affords the reader with the same information presented in 
a different format.

	Would like to write more, but there goes that phone again.

-- charlie Crawford.

Re: anti-word

[Charles Crawford]

Janina,

         I am not sure there is an entitlement to the processor or file of 
your choosing as much as there is an entitlement to accessibility.  Your 
point on having to buy a new computer to access something does however 
modify the situation and I will have to think about that one.

-- charlie Crawford.
At 03:08 PM 1/13/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Well, I believe you're wrong on both counts, in terms of what AFB supports
>and in terms of what's good for blind people.
>
>Proprietary formats that work sometimes, and don't work often are not good
>for blind people. For example, when it comes to inaccessible documents,
>such as the forms mentioned in an earlier message, an accomondation can
>reasonably be enforced under the ADA. I speak here of the most
>restrictive circumstance such that of employment where, as you
>pointed out, there are defined company standards. There are other
>examples.
>
>You have, however, apparently narrowed the scope of this discussion to
>file sharing within some kind of organizational entity--a company, a
>school.  The issue goes beyond that.
>
>When the situation is a proprietary format to someone outside of an
>organizational entity, the entity is on even weaker ground. They have no
>basis in law to compel someone to spend money on devices they would
>otherwise not purchase in order to read something they're entitled to
>read. An excellent example of this circumstance are Sec. 508 (and I
>daresay 504). When the government chooses to publish forms on the web,
>they are now required to be accessible forms. And, they must be accessible
>to a wider variety of individuals with a wider variety of technologies.
>They cannot, for example, say "Word is accessible, so we can publish
>Word," because it's arguably only accessible to those with that kind of
>technology. The public service must serve the greater public, not just
>that majority that may have chosen Word somehow.
>
>
>
>  On
>Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Kirk Wood wrote:
>
> > I hope for the sake of blind people Janina speaks for herself and not the
> > AFB. Reality strike here. Many people use their computer for primarily
> > business reasons. And as such they are stuck with the arrogant rules of a
> > business. For some stupid reason us sighted folks prefer text that is
> > formatted. And no Janina, html and text don't give the level of formatting
> > that word does. Sorry, but does not computer. Will not compute.
> >
> > =======
> > Kirk Wood
> > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
> >
> > Nowlan's Theory:
> >         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
> >         the next freeway exit.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>--
>
>                                 Janina Sajka, Director
>                                 Technology Research and Development
>                                 Governmental Relations Group
>                                 American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
>Email: janina@afb.net           Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
>Chair, Accessibility SIG
>Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>http://www.openebook.org
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: anti-word

[Charles Crawford]

Amanda,

         I agree with you.  Thanks for saying it so well.  I knew there was 
something I liked alot in you.  Smile.

-- charlie Crawforrd.
At 05:06 PM 1/13/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Not really Greg,
>  It is not acceptible to initiate personal attacks and we appreciate that.
>
>Having said that.  I have been gainfully employed by the Private
>Sector/Verizon Communications for 10 years of my employed life and I have
>advocated for myself very effectively yet stood my ground.   I've also
>worked nearly 9 years for Department of Treasury, Internal Revenue Service
>as a senior programmer analyst.  I know for a fact! that advocating for what
>is in the best interest of my ability to perform my work effectively has
>enabled me rather than disabled me from the successes I have enjoyed.
>O'yeah, feathers get ruffled from time to time but that is just a part of
>life in general.  One must stand his or her ground in order to overcome
>barriers and nobody said it's easy nor pleasant and especially that one is
>required to cave into what those who are otherwise clueless want to dictate.
>
>Maybe it's time to drop this thread though as we've gone beyond the topic of
>Speakup ha!  Still the reason why the majority of us are here in the first
>place is simply because we know that  Microsoft isn't the appropriate
>solution to Accessibility to persons who are blind or vision impaired.
>
>Amanda Lee
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Kirk Wood" <cpt.kirk@1tree.net>
>To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 4:56 PM
>Subject: Re: anti-word
>
>
> > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > Kirk, I don't give a damm if that's what they expect. From me, they
>don't
> > > get.
> > >
> > > Sometimes, this turns into an educational opportunity. Usually, I don't
> > > hear anything one way or the other.
> >
> > It must be nice to *NOT* work for a real company. Janina, you proved my
> > profound belief that you lack real world experiance. Most people would
> > simply be unemployed taking that stance.
> >
> > =======
> > Kirk Wood
> > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
> >
> > Nowlan's Theory:
> >         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
> >         the next freeway exit.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: anti-word

[Janina Sajka]

Charley:

First of all, thanks for stating the employment situation from the 
positive perspective. I think you and I said substantially the same thing, 
though I said it more negatively.

The issue of whether or not access can be limited to any particular type 
of technology is, I think, at the core of the issue in the public domain. 
Let me take it to 508 directly. My 508 analysis says two things:

1.)	The goivernment, as the employer of persons with disabilities, can 
mandate any technology it wishes to mandate, because it also has the power 
and obligation to deliver that technology to the worker's desk, together 
with training and support which understands and teaches how to use that 
technology accessibly. Example? PDF maybe a pretty dumb file format, but 
it's probably OK for the Feds to adopt PDF inhouse;

2.)	Publishing to the public is a different matter entirely. The 
government is obligated in its public information systems to serve the 
public, broadly defined. It must, therefore, adopt generic technologies 
which are most likely to serve the greatest number of users. This is its 
fundamental obligation. It cannot, therefore, adopt technologies in its 
public infrastructures which require proprietary technologies adopted by 
some users, but not by others, as long as a significant minority exists. 
It is probably this "significant minority" which determines the bounds of 
this mandate, i.e. cp/m support can probably be ignored, but DOS users, 
Mac users, and (increasingly) linux users, probably cannot be ignored. 
Example: We may argue whether or not PDF is accessible with the recent 
enhancements from Adobe and their incorporation by screen readers such as 
JFW and WinEyes. In the public information sector this argument is 
irrelevant. A significant number, possibly still even a majority, of the 
public who are persons with disabilities do not have these technologies 
and cannot be compelled to acquire them in order to obtain service from 
the Federal government. Moreover, the government must design its public 
information systems in such a manner as is most likely to serve all of 
these users, and not just those who have laid out the greenbacks to 
acquire and acquaint themselves with more recent versions of Windows and 
one of the aforementioned Windows screen readers;

Given that something like 90% of Federal IT spending (total of about $68 
Billion by 2006) is projected to be contracted out (today's Wall Street 
Journal), we can expect to see this theory tested in the courts, imho.




 On Mon, 14 Jan 
2002, Charles Crawford wrote:

> Janina,
> 
>          I am not sure there is an entitlement to the processor or file of 
> your choosing as much as there is an entitlement to accessibility.  Your 
> point on having to buy a new computer to access something does however 
> modify the situation and I will have to think about that one.
> 
> -- charlie Crawford.
> At 03:08 PM 1/13/02 -0500, you wrote:
> >Well, I believe you're wrong on both counts, in terms of what AFB supports
> >and in terms of what's good for blind people.
> >
> >Proprietary formats that work sometimes, and don't work often are not good
> >for blind people. For example, when it comes to inaccessible documents,
> >such as the forms mentioned in an earlier message, an accomondation can
> >reasonably be enforced under the ADA. I speak here of the most
> >restrictive circumstance such that of employment where, as you
> >pointed out, there are defined company standards. There are other
> >examples.
> >
> >You have, however, apparently narrowed the scope of this discussion to
> >file sharing within some kind of organizational entity--a company, a
> >school.  The issue goes beyond that.
> >
> >When the situation is a proprietary format to someone outside of an
> >organizational entity, the entity is on even weaker ground. They have no
> >basis in law to compel someone to spend money on devices they would
> >otherwise not purchase in order to read something they're entitled to
> >read. An excellent example of this circumstance are Sec. 508 (and I
> >daresay 504). When the government chooses to publish forms on the web,
> >they are now required to be accessible forms. And, they must be accessible
> >to a wider variety of individuals with a wider variety of technologies.
> >They cannot, for example, say "Word is accessible, so we can publish
> >Word," because it's arguably only accessible to those with that kind of
> >technology. The public service must serve the greater public, not just
> >that majority that may have chosen Word somehow.
> >
> >
> >
> >  On
> >Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Kirk Wood wrote:
> >
> > > I hope for the sake of blind people Janina speaks for herself and not the
> > > AFB. Reality strike here. Many people use their computer for primarily
> > > business reasons. And as such they are stuck with the arrogant rules of a
> > > business. For some stupid reason us sighted folks prefer text that is
> > > formatted. And no Janina, html and text don't give the level of formatting
> > > that word does. Sorry, but does not computer. Will not compute.
> > >
> > > =======
> > > Kirk Wood
> > > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
> > >
> > > Nowlan's Theory:
> > >         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
> > >         the next freeway exit.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >--
> >
> >                                 Janina Sajka, Director
> >                                 Technology Research and Development
> >                                 Governmental Relations Group
> >                                 American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> >Email: janina@afb.net           Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> >Chair, Accessibility SIG
> >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> >http://www.openebook.org
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: anti-word

[Amanda Lee]

Janina and all,

There is an exception and that is if a Federal Employee is covered under a
Union Bargaining Agreement as most Federal Employees are, then there is
typically language within the Contract which provides for the accomodation
of persons with disabilities.

Federal Employees obviously are not under the ADA but I believe the Fair
Labor Standards Act and other EEO regulations related to Federal Employees
are also applicable.

Yeah! I'm a lawyer wannabee ha!

Amanda Lee



On Mon, 14 Jan 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:

> Charley:
>
> First of all, thanks for stating the employment situation from the
> positive perspective. I think you and I said substantially the same thing,
> though I said it more negatively.
>
> The issue of whether or not access can be limited to any particular type
> of technology is, I think, at the core of the issue in the public domain.
> Let me take it to 508 directly. My 508 analysis says two things:
>
> 1.)	The goivernment, as the employer of persons with disabilities, can
> mandate any technology it wishes to mandate, because it also has the power
> and obligation to deliver that technology to the worker's desk, together
> with training and support which understands and teaches how to use that
> technology accessibly. Example? PDF maybe a pretty dumb file format, but
> it's probably OK for the Feds to adopt PDF inhouse;
>
> 2.)	Publishing to the public is a different matter entirely. The
> government is obligated in its public information systems to serve the
> public, broadly defined. It must, therefore, adopt generic technologies
> which are most likely to serve the greatest number of users. This is its
> fundamental obligation. It cannot, therefore, adopt technologies in its
> public infrastructures which require proprietary technologies adopted by
> some users, but not by others, as long as a significant minority exists.
> It is probably this "significant minority" which determines the bounds of
> this mandate, i.e. cp/m support can probably be ignored, but DOS users,
> Mac users, and (increasingly) linux users, probably cannot be ignored.
> Example: We may argue whether or not PDF is accessible with the recent
> enhancements from Adobe and their incorporation by screen readers such as
> JFW and WinEyes. In the public information sector this argument is
> irrelevant. A significant number, possibly still even a majority, of the
> public who are persons with disabilities do not have these technologies
> and cannot be compelled to acquire them in order to obtain service from
> the Federal government. Moreover, the government must design its public
> information systems in such a manner as is most likely to serve all of
> these users, and not just those who have laid out the greenbacks to
> acquire and acquaint themselves with more recent versions of Windows and
> one of the aforementioned Windows screen readers;
>
> Given that something like 90% of Federal IT spending (total of about $68
> Billion by 2006) is projected to be contracted out (today's Wall Street
> Journal), we can expect to see this theory tested in the courts, imho.
>
>
>
>
>  On Mon, 14 Jan
> 2002, Charles Crawford wrote:
>
> > Janina,
> >
> >          I am not sure there is an entitlement to the processor or file of
> > your choosing as much as there is an entitlement to accessibility.  Your
> > point on having to buy a new computer to access something does however
> > modify the situation and I will have to think about that one.
> >
> > -- charlie Crawford.
> > At 03:08 PM 1/13/02 -0500, you wrote:
> > >Well, I believe you're wrong on both counts, in terms of what AFB supports
> > >and in terms of what's good for blind people.
> > >
> > >Proprietary formats that work sometimes, and don't work often are not good
> > >for blind people. For example, when it comes to inaccessible documents,
> > >such as the forms mentioned in an earlier message, an accomondation can
> > >reasonably be enforced under the ADA. I speak here of the most
> > >restrictive circumstance such that of employment where, as you
> > >pointed out, there are defined company standards. There are other
> > >examples.
> > >
> > >You have, however, apparently narrowed the scope of this discussion to
> > >file sharing within some kind of organizational entity--a company, a
> > >school.  The issue goes beyond that.
> > >
> > >When the situation is a proprietary format to someone outside of an
> > >organizational entity, the entity is on even weaker ground. They have no
> > >basis in law to compel someone to spend money on devices they would
> > >otherwise not purchase in order to read something they're entitled to
> > >read. An excellent example of this circumstance are Sec. 508 (and I
> > >daresay 504). When the government chooses to publish forms on the web,
> > >they are now required to be accessible forms. And, they must be accessible
> > >to a wider variety of individuals with a wider variety of technologies.
> > >They cannot, for example, say "Word is accessible, so we can publish
> > >Word," because it's arguably only accessible to those with that kind of
> > >technology. The public service must serve the greater public, not just
> > >that majority that may have chosen Word somehow.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  On
> > >Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Kirk Wood wrote:
> > >
> > > > I hope for the sake of blind people Janina speaks for herself and not the
> > > > AFB. Reality strike here. Many people use their computer for primarily
> > > > business reasons. And as such they are stuck with the arrogant rules of a
> > > > business. For some stupid reason us sighted folks prefer text that is
> > > > formatted. And no Janina, html and text don't give the level of formatting
> > > > that word does. Sorry, but does not computer. Will not compute.
> > > >
> > > > =======
> > > > Kirk Wood
> > > > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
> > > >
> > > > Nowlan's Theory:
> > > >         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
> > > >         the next freeway exit.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > >--
> > >
> > >                                 Janina Sajka, Director
> > >                                 Technology Research and Development
> > >                                 Governmental Relations Group
> > >                                 American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > >
> > >Email: janina@afb.net           Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > >
> > >Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > >http://www.openebook.org
> > >
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Speakup mailing list
> > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> --
>
> 				Janina Sajka, Director
> 				Technology Research and Development
> 				Governmental Relations Group
> 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: anti-word

[Gregory Nowak]

Shaun, how do we change the defacto file format then from ms-word to something else? Start a "drop ms-word" campign maybe? Of course, such a thing would require finances as well.
Greg


On Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 09:00:12PM +1100, Shaun Oliver wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
> 
> > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
> >
> > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing, I'm
> > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word format
> > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such.  Some of this whole
> > > anti Word sounds arogant to me.
> >
> >
> > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I
> > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I
> > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file
> > format as some kind of standard.
> >
> Well, like it or not, this is the standard we need to either abide by or
> change. Right at the moment all I'm seeing is a whole lot of bitching
> about ms word and such.
> to revisit Kirk w's post a few days ago, we need to take into account that
> microsoft word is the enforced some would say prefered word processor that
> is widely used in the workplace today.
> We need to be mindful of this when we decide not to give a fuck about
> formatting and presentation.
> I've had it pointed out to me in no uncertain terms that this is the way
> things are.
> so let's just stop fucking around with bitching and either do something
> about it or fucking well live with it!!
> I don't like microsoft any more than alot of you do but like it or not,
> it's here and we have to deal with it.
> if microsoft on the other hand were to get things right in the first place
> and not be so kind as to stoop to exploitative and scare tactics etc, we
> probably wouldn't even be having this discussion.
> I'm sorry for my use of colourful metafores but that's just how ai see the
> whole thing.
>  >
> > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> -- 
> Shaun Oliver
> 
> Marriage is a three ring circus:
> engagement ring, wedding ring, and suffering.
>                 -- Roger Price
> 
> Email: shauno@goanna.net.au
> Icq: 76958435
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: anti-word

[Gregory Nowak]

Ok, but seeing a text file won't tell them that it's been written with emacs under Linux, since you can do the same with notepad. It's just like seeing a car won't automatically tell you that it is a shevy.
Greg


On Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 11:53:45AM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote:
> Easy, they see a text file in the response.
> -- Charlie.
> At 11:14 AM 1/13/02 -0600, you wrote:
> >And how do you expect them to know about the other platforms if all they 
> >know about their windows computer is how to turn it on and off?
> >Greg
> >
> >
> >On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:17:03PM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote:
> > > Hello Amanda, Janina and other interested listers,
> > >
> > >          Well, looks like the world of advocacy is impinging on planet
> > > Linux.  It is correct to point out that in the ideal there should not be a
> > > word processing standard imposed by a company, but as we all know, the
> > > sender of a word file getting a text file back might not see the world in
> > > the same way.  Don't you just hate it when that happens.  Smile.
> > >
> > >          I guess my view is that if word users want to communicate with
> > > those who don't use word, then they have to adjust to the realities of
> > > other computer platforms.  Consumer choice still has it's place!
> > >
> > > -- Charlie Crawford.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > At 11:09 AM 01/13/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > > >Amen! to that Janina!
> > > >
> > > >Amanda
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > > >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:06 AM
> > > >Subject: Re: anti-word
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing,
> > > >I'm
> > > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word
> > > >format
> > > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such.  Some of 
> > this whole
> > > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I
> > > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I
> > > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file
> > > > > format as some kind of standard.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >_______________________________________________
> > > >Speakup mailing list
> > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: anti-word

[Gregory Nowak]

On Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 12:15:20PM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote:
but what 
> about our rights as blind folks to access?  Are they conditioned upon 
> having to use what the employer for example uses?  Well, the truth is that 
> they aare. 
Is this fair? No. Can it possibly be changed? Maybe, but only by the blind masses.


 An employer has the right to utilize any software they want and 
> as long as we too can use it, then we have to learn it.
A sighted person can read braille with their eyes too, maybe better then some of us with our hands. So, why aren't they all learning it if they can use it too and thus make our lives easier to some degree?
Greg

Re: anti-word

[Jason]

this is OT, but actually, having tried to learn braille by sight, I found 
that it was a lot less confusing by touch; for example: by sight the "e" and 
"i" symbols look the same (to me) but feel nothing alike.

now you ask why I wanted to teach myself braille huh?

> A sighted person can read braille with their eyes too, maybe better then
> some of us with our hands. So, why aren't they all learning it if they can
> use it too and thus make our lives easier to some degree? Greg

Re: anti-word

[Gregory Nowak]

Ok, so maybe that wasn't a good example.
Greg


On Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 03:18:32PM -0700, Jason wrote:
> this is OT, but actually, having tried to learn braille by sight, I found 
> that it was a lot less confusing by touch; for example: by sight the "e" and 
> "i" symbols look the same (to me) but feel nothing alike.
> 
> now you ask why I wanted to teach myself braille huh?
> 
> > A sighted person can read braille with their eyes too, maybe better then
> > some of us with our hands. So, why aren't they all learning it if they can
> > use it too and thus make our lives easier to some degree? Greg
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: anti-word

[Kirk Wood]

> A sighted person can read braille with their eyes too, maybe better then
> some of us with our hands. So, why aren't they all learning it if they can
> use it too and thus make our lives easier to some degree? Greg

Actually, some of us do. I find it handy to be able to leave my roomie a
note. But hey, perhaps we should do away with print in favor of braille. I
mean why should we sighted people enjoy being able to carry an entire
reference work in a single book? For example, why should I be able to fit
an entire bible into a cargo pocket? It isn't like I would ever read the
entire thing in a single sitting anyway right?

Damn the forests, we are all going braille!!!

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.

Re: anti-word

[Gregory Nowak]

hahahahahahaha. Let's do away with print anyway (grin). 
Greg


On Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 04:56:26PM -0600, Kirk Wood wrote:
> > A sighted person can read braille with their eyes too, maybe better then
> > some of us with our hands. So, why aren't they all learning it if they can
> > use it too and thus make our lives easier to some degree? Greg
> 
> Actually, some of us do. I find it handy to be able to leave my roomie a
> note. But hey, perhaps we should do away with print in favor of braille. I
> mean why should we sighted people enjoy being able to carry an entire
> reference work in a single book? For example, why should I be able to fit
> an entire bible into a cargo pocket? It isn't like I would ever read the
> entire thing in a single sitting anyway right?
> 
> Damn the forests, we are all going braille!!!
> 
> =======
> Kirk Wood
> Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
> 
> Nowlan's Theory:
>         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
>         the next freeway exit.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: anti-word

[Gregory Nowak]

Hmmmm, and how would you go about doing that?
Greg


On Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 07:12:27PM -0600, Kirk Wood wrote:
> > hahahahahahaha. Let's do away with print anyway (grin). 
> > Greg
> 
> Of course we could work on making smaller braille fonts. If you shrink the
> spacing by just 20% you would fit so much more on the page.
> 
> =======
> Kirk Wood
> Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
> 
> Nowlan's Theory:
>         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
>         the next freeway exit.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: anti-word

[Kirk Wood]

> hahahahahahaha. Let's do away with print anyway (grin). 
> Greg

Of course we could work on making smaller braille fonts. If you shrink the
spacing by just 20% you would fit so much more on the page.

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.

braille fonts

[William Hubbs]

Would braille still be readable if we decreased the size? 
If we decreased it too much, I don't think we would be able to read it.

William

On Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 07:12:27PM -0600, Kirk Wood wrote:
> > hahahahahahaha. Let's do away with print anyway (grin). 
> > Greg
> 
> Of course we could work on making smaller braille fonts. If you shrink the
> spacing by just 20% you would fit so much more on the page.
> 
> =======
> Kirk Wood
> Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
> 
> Nowlan's Theory:
>         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
>         the next freeway exit.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: anti-word

[Kirk Wood]

Well it would require making new braille machines. But we would just
decrease the space between dots a little.

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.

Re: anti-word

[Shaun Oliver]

ok for starters,
yes it'll take finance and some smart people who know some code to maybe
rewrite the standard.
it'll also take alot of voices to at least get ourselves and others like
us heard.
Let me be honest with you all. This is not going to happen just like that
it'll take alot of balls to do it but it can be done.
However, if some of you feel so strongly about not using word or whatever,
just don't use it. I don't see what all the fuss is about.
it's farely simple to me. teach them to adapt it for you or bloody well do
it yourself.
and if you have to occasionally use windows to edit a ms word doc and
retain all the formatting attributes etc, then so be it.
don't be on here bitching about it and what all else, do something about
it!!
I don't care what, just let's us all get off our collective arses and stop
whining! This is nonproductive and isn't helping anyone.
Let's just for now get on with it and when the opportunity arrises, make
the appropriate noise.

On Mon, 14 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:

> Shaun, how do we change the defacto file format then from ms-word to something else? Start a "drop ms-word" campign maybe? Of course, such a thing would require finances as well.
> Greg
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 09:00:12PM +1100, Shaun Oliver wrote:
> > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
> >
> > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
> > >
> > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing, I'm
> > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word format
> > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such.  Some of this whole
> > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me.
> > >
> > >
> > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I
> > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I
> > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file
> > > format as some kind of standard.
> > >
> > Well, like it or not, this is the standard we need to either abide by or
> > change. Right at the moment all I'm seeing is a whole lot of bitching
> > about ms word and such.
> > to revisit Kirk w's post a few days ago, we need to take into account that
> > microsoft word is the enforced some would say prefered word processor that
> > is widely used in the workplace today.
> > We need to be mindful of this when we decide not to give a fuck about
> > formatting and presentation.
> > I've had it pointed out to me in no uncertain terms that this is the way
> > things are.
> > so let's just stop fucking around with bitching and either do something
> > about it or fucking well live with it!!
> > I don't like microsoft any more than alot of you do but like it or not,
> > it's here and we have to deal with it.
> > if microsoft on the other hand were to get things right in the first place
> > and not be so kind as to stoop to exploitative and scare tactics etc, we
> > probably wouldn't even be having this discussion.
> > I'm sorry for my use of colourful metafores but that's just how ai see the
> > whole thing.
> >  >
> > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Shaun Oliver
> >
> > Marriage is a three ring circus:
> > engagement ring, wedding ring, and suffering.
> >                 -- Roger Price
> >
> > Email: shauno@goanna.net.au
> > Icq: 76958435
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

-- 
Shaun Oliver

Marriage is a three ring circus:
engagement ring, wedding ring, and suffering.
                -- Roger Price

Email: shauno@goanna.net.au
Icq: 76958435

Re: braille fonts

[Charles Hallenbeck]

Braille would still be readable if it were much smaller, say a
half or a third of its standard size. The only thing is, you
would have to use your tongue to read it, since your tongue is
(almost) the only part of your body which is sufficiently
sensitive.

How about getting back to computing?


On Mon, 14 Jan 2002, William Hubbs wrote:

> Would braille still be readable if we decreased the size?
> If we decreased it too much, I don't think we would be able to read it.
>
> William
>
> On Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 07:12:27PM -0600, Kirk Wood wrote:
> > > hahahahahahaha. Let's do away with print anyway (grin).
> > > Greg
> >
> > Of course we could work on making smaller braille fonts. If you shrink the
> > spacing by just 20% you would fit so much more on the page.
> >
> > =======
> > Kirk Wood
> > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
> >
> > Nowlan's Theory:
> >         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
> >         the next freeway exit.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*
Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh
The Moon is Waxing Crescent (3% of Full)

Re: anti-word

[Steve Holmes]

Reality wise, that is a good point.  After reading this avelanche of
venting  yesterday, I found that it comes down to a couple points.  In the
immediate or short term, it may well be easier to just pop into a windows
environment and use the "other guys' stuff" and get the job done.  In a
long term, one could go out and try to build interest and support to move
to a new platform and standard.  Yes, I am versed in windows and can use
window-eyes as good as any of them.  But I do realize that may not speak
for others who have not.  I think versitility is the name of the game to
survive in the world of accessability.  I hate proprietory formats as much
as any of them.  That's why I stress some form of compatibility is so
important.  Hence, we have programs like anti-word.  Micky Soft is never
gona give out the format description for Word documents but apparently,
anti-word is one way to atleast decode them into other formats at our
wish.

The venting was probably good short term therapy for us all but let's see
what we can do to promote linux as an overall platform and how it can
eventually out do windows.  All that probably belongs in
comp.linux.advocacy perhaps but we can use this list to pump up speakup,
help other blind people come into the new fold and get them going and help
them share in the excitement of using an alternative operating system and
all its power!  I for one have been quite pleased to see the growing
number of newbies coming into the list, presumably to explore alternative
solutions for accessing their computers.  "Come on down! the water's
fine!"

On Tue, 15 Jan 2002, Shaun Oliver wrote:

> ok for starters,
> yes it'll take finance and some smart people who know some code to maybe
> rewrite the standard.
> it'll also take alot of voices to at least get ourselves and others like
> us heard.
> Let me be honest with you all. This is not going to happen just like that
> it'll take alot of balls to do it but it can be done.
> However, if some of you feel so strongly about not using word or whatever,
> just don't use it. I don't see what all the fuss is about.
> it's farely simple to me. teach them to adapt it for you or bloody well do
> it yourself.
> and if you have to occasionally use windows to edit a ms word doc and
> retain all the formatting attributes etc, then so be it.
> don't be on here bitching about it and what all else, do something about
> it!!
> I don't care what, just let's us all get off our collective arses and stop
> whining! This is nonproductive and isn't helping anyone.
> Let's just for now get on with it and when the opportunity arrises, make
> the appropriate noise.
>
> On Mon, 14 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
>
> > Shaun, how do we change the defacto file format then from ms-word to something else? Start a "drop ms-word" campign maybe? Of course, such a thing would require finances as well.
> > Greg
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 09:00:12PM +1100, Shaun Oliver wrote:
> > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Yes and if a word document is sent to you for your input and editing, I'm
> > > > > sure the original party would expect the thing to come back in Word format
> > > > > along with the built-in formatting, styles and such.  Some of this whole
> > > > > anti Word sounds arogant to me.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I rather think it arrogant to presume everyone wants and reads Word. I
> > > > regard it as arrogant to presume we all pay tribute to Microsoft. I
> > > > further regard it arrogant to treat a proprietary, non-consensus, file
> > > > format as some kind of standard.
> > > >
> > > Well, like it or not, this is the standard we need to either abide by or
> > > change. Right at the moment all I'm seeing is a whole lot of bitching
> > > about ms word and such.
> > > to revisit Kirk w's post a few days ago, we need to take into account that
> > > microsoft word is the enforced some would say prefered word processor that
> > > is widely used in the workplace today.
> > > We need to be mindful of this when we decide not to give a fuck about
> > > formatting and presentation.
> > > I've had it pointed out to me in no uncertain terms that this is the way
> > > things are.
> > > so let's just stop fucking around with bitching and either do something
> > > about it or fucking well live with it!!
> > > I don't like microsoft any more than alot of you do but like it or not,
> > > it's here and we have to deal with it.
> > > if microsoft on the other hand were to get things right in the first place
> > > and not be so kind as to stoop to exploitative and scare tactics etc, we
> > > probably wouldn't even be having this discussion.
> > > I'm sorry for my use of colourful metafores but that's just how ai see the
> > > whole thing.
> > >  >
> > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Shaun Oliver
> > >
> > > Marriage is a three ring circus:
> > > engagement ring, wedding ring, and suffering.
> > >                 -- Roger Price
> > >
> > > Email: shauno@goanna.net.au
> > > Icq: 76958435
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>

Re: anti-word

[Charles Crawford]

Well, we are getting into the esoteric considerations of common 
sense.  Probably time to move on to another subject.

-- charlie.
At 02:27 PM 01/14/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>On Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 12:15:20PM -0500, Charles Crawford wrote:
>but what
> > about our rights as blind folks to access?  Are they conditioned upon
> > having to use what the employer for example uses?  Well, the truth is that
> > they aare.
>Is this fair? No. Can it possibly be changed? Maybe, but only by the blind 
>masses.
>
>
>  An employer has the right to utilize any software they want and
> > as long as we too can use it, then we have to learn it.
>A sighted person can read braille with their eyes too, maybe better then 
>some of us with our hands. So, why aren't they all learning it if they can 
>use it too and thus make our lives easier to some degree?
>Greg
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: braille fonts

[BTBG]

Now there's a mental image. Next thing you know we'll have flavored
paper*grin*. Personally I think braille is small enough. If only refreshable
braille displays weren't so expensive.

Once ebooks become more mainstream, things like Braille and Speaks will will
be the way to go in reading massive volumes of reference materials and other
books. A person really could carry that previously mentioned bible in their
pocket.

from
Keith H.

A husband is someone who takes out the trash and gives the
impression he just cleaned the whole house.


--- You Wrote: ---

Braille would still be readable if it were much smaller, say a
half or a third of its standard size. The only thing is, you
would have to use your tongue to read it, since your tongue is
(almost) the only part of your body which is sufficiently
sensitive.
How about getting back to computing?
<snip>

Re: braille fonts

[Gregory Nowak]

Hmmmm, if we're going to use our tonges, there goes the idea of using paper.
Greg


On Tue, Jan 15, 2002 at 06:32:34AM -0500, Charles Hallenbeck wrote:
> Braille would still be readable if it were much smaller, say a
> half or a third of its standard size. The only thing is, you
> would have to use your tongue to read it, since your tongue is
> (almost) the only part of your body which is sufficiently
> sensitive.
> 
> How about getting back to computing?
> 
> 
> On Mon, 14 Jan 2002, William Hubbs wrote:
> 
> > Would braille still be readable if we decreased the size?
> > If we decreased it too much, I don't think we would be able to read it.
> >
> > William
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 07:12:27PM -0600, Kirk Wood wrote:
> > > > hahahahahahaha. Let's do away with print anyway (grin).
> > > > Greg
> > >
> > > Of course we could work on making smaller braille fonts. If you shrink the
> > > spacing by just 20% you would fit so much more on the page.
> > >
> > > =======
> > > Kirk Wood
> > > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
> > >
> > > Nowlan's Theory:
> > >         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
> > >         the next freeway exit.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> *<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*
> Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh
> The Moon is Waxing Crescent (3% of Full)
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: anti-word

[Geoff Shang]

On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Charles Hallenbeck wrote:

> I do not understand why you do not just accept what he is ready
> to send you, since you can easily do the conversion yourself. Why
> expect him to do it?

OK, now I've read the whole thread, time for my 2C worth on it.

Yes, the wv lib will give us access to word docs, but I've not found it
100% successful.  For example, I've found files that end in a host of
question marks instead of what should have been there.  Worse, some files
have said something like:

This document was saved 8 times using fastsave.  Some information was
lost.

And that's all it can tell me.  I have to try and do a 'strings' on it, and
man that ain't pretty.  so saying we can read them isn't always true.  I've
only had this with a minority of docs though.

As far as preparing well formatted texts go, it can be done under linux.  I
just created an RTF file from a text file for the first time tonight.  To
save anyone the headache I went through to find out how to do it, the
command is:

enscript -W rtf -p outputfile.rtf inputfile.txt

Actually, enscript looks like it's pretty powerful, but is extremely
lacking in documentation that covers all its features (like that one).

another tool that looks like it might be useful is the simple document
parser sdf.  Apparently, you learn a simple mark-up language and it'll do
the
rest and convert it into lots of formats.  I've not used it, but I intend
to look at it.
and if you want to create fully produced works of literary art, you can't
go past latex.

Geoff.

Re: braille fonts

[Amanda Lee]

I'm behind on the list reading.  There is micro braille but isn't in wide
use.  The only aid I know of for writing micro braille is a special slate
and stylus and I don't remember where it is or was available.  Perhaps from
American Printinghouse for the Blind in Louisville, KY.

Amanda Lee

----- Original Message -----
From: "William Hubbs" <kc5eiv@kc5eiv.ddts.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 8:15 PM
Subject: braille fonts


> Would braille still be readable if we decreased the size?
> If we decreased it too much, I don't think we would be able to read it.
>
> William
>
> On Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 07:12:27PM -0600, Kirk Wood wrote:
> > > hahahahahahaha. Let's do away with print anyway (grin).
> > > Greg
> >
> > Of course we could work on making smaller braille fonts. If you shrink
the
> > spacing by just 20% you would fit so much more on the page.
> >
> > =======
> > Kirk Wood
> > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
> >
> > Nowlan's Theory:
> >         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
> >         the next freeway exit.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: anti-word

[Rich Caloggero]

I think the real issue for many here is that of, well, money!
If a sighted person goes and buys a computer, and they decide to get a
windows box, they can take it home and use it right away (out of the box).
When a blind person buys a windows box (yup, I actually did because I wanted
to use cakewalk, and no such software exists in an accessible form for any
other OS), they need to spend another nonsignificant lump of cash (probably
at least half of what the computer is worth or more) just to be able to use
it. After all the cash is laid out, we can't even make *full* use of it, and
to make matters worse, the screen reader is usually one of the main
culprates in causing crashes or other system-level missbehaviors.

Having said all that, I think word is a defacto standard, and if you have
the means (a box with a windows screen reader and a copy of word), then you
should know how to use it to either read the document, or produce an rtf or
txt document for yourself. If you get sent a word document to edit, you need
to send back a word document with your changes included. Whether we like it
or not, sighted people like word and have demonstrated this by spending cash
to obtain it. To be fair, it does do just about everything required of a
decent, powerful, and fairly straightforward (if your sighted) document
publishing environment.

To add more fuel to the fire, there is a project (several in fact) here at
MIT to make courseware available on-line for all institute courses. A number
of frameworks are being tried, but the consensus seems to be that HTML ain't
good enough. People have gravitated to, -- hold on to your hats -- PDF as
the format of choice. If not PDF, word is also acceptable.  This is, in the
minds of the humble folks at the MIT Access Tech Lab, a very bad thing! I
believe PDF is popular in the academic world because it provides fairly
rigorous copyright protection. Both word and PDF are binary files, so you
need the right software to read them, which makes copyright protection
easier to enforce. HTML could be read without even a browser with a bit of
effort. MIT and other private institutions are not covered by ADA
regulations (508 etc), at least this is my understanding. Please tell me
otherwise if this is not true.

Just my two cents...

                    Rich Caloggero
                    MIT ATIC


----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Crawford" <ccrawford@acb.org>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 12:15 PM
Subject: Re: anti-word


> Hi,
>
> Well I guess I did not want to get into a big duscussion of this, but you
> raise points worth answering and thanks for doing so.
>
> People will not know anything about anything unless there is an original
> introduction to it.  So if the Prof get a text file, then he would seek to
> know how to handle it.  Just as his becoming enlightened by your reference
> to notepad, so too would he be in a position to understand use a text
> document.  Whether a text document is appropriate to the setting is a good
> question though.
>
> If we left it at that, then all would be more or less settled, but what
> about our rights as blind folks to access?  Are they conditioned upon
> having to use what the employer for example uses?  Well, the truth is that
> they aare.  An employer has the right to utilize any software they want
and
> as long as we too can use it, then we have to learn it.
>
> So the challenge to blind linux users is to relate to the windows world
> not as an us versus them, but as a reality check on others who use
> windows.  It gets a bit tricky because of the accessibility issues and the
> relative ease of use issue.  If we have to go climbing mountains that
> others do not have to climb to use a product, then that is not equal
> access, but our success in getting at least a couple of Windows programs
to
> work well with access techincurrs a rsponsibility on our part to use that
> technology when required.
>
> So we are back where we began.  We may not like having to use Ms-Word or
> Ms-anything, but if it is the standard that is accessible as well, then we
> have to do it.  Responding to an MS-Word attachment with a text file is ok
> since it equally affords the reader with the same information presented in
> a different format.
>
> Would like to write more, but there goes that phone again.
>
> -- charlie Crawford.
>
>
>

anti-word

[ddunfee]

Regarding having to share a document before it is put out, it makes better
sense to have it in plain text format and then the person who is to
broadcast the final version is the one who decides about style and format.  
The basic reason for a document is the information content and that is the
function best erved by using a universal format.  Passing around the text
with no end of line markers etc. allows anyone to format it in their
application of choice for whatever reasons they choose. ms is always trying
to force one to use and upgrade a version of word for market control and
proffit.  That is habit only and we need not have to play that game.  It is
just as easy to establish a corperate culture of using universal formats as
not, it is only habit and tradition.