getting off my windows dependency

getting off my windows dependency

[Farhan]

Hey i want to get off my windows dependency for reading email and using the net but i'm not sure how to do this. i need some help to get away from...microcrap. help?

Re: getting off my windows dependency

[Kirk Reiser]

What do you need help with?  Saying you want help with no details is
like absolutely useless.  Do you have your networking going?  If not,
tell us what is and what is not working currently.  I need a billion
dollars! help!!

  Kirk

-- 

Kirk Reiser				The Computer Braille Facility
e-mail: kirk@braille.uwo.ca		University of Western Ontario
phone: (519) 661-3061

Re: getting off my windows dependency

[mikster4]

Would be helpful if you described what you want help with.

I will assume that you meant what e-mail clients and web browsers are 
there. I will assume you have your hardware sorted, and can get a connection 
to the internet. 

I am currently writing this e-mail in cone. I like this because it 
allows you to have multiple accounts specified, supports pop3, imap, 
smtp, local mail and limited support for news accounts. I have found that 
cone does not like my university imap server, so for that I use pine. 
There are many more, and if you are using a distribution like Debian 
or Gentoo with many packages and a package management system, search 
that for e-mail, or similar.

Web browsers, elinks is a good general purpose text based one, giving 
cookies, java script, bookmarks, support for frames, and more. Most 
pre-built packages of elinks do not seem to have java script, you may 
have to build it from source (I found the patch included with elinks  
0.11 did not work on spidermonkey, so I had to compile spidermonkey 
with elinks 0.10 first). Links2 comes with java script built in for 
most pre-built packages, but links2 is more limited in features, 
elinks is a branch-off from links2 and aims to give more features. 
Lynx is a very basic text browser, but for simple things, I find best. There 
may be some for gnome, but I don't know of these and their accessibility. 
Mike 
Farhan writes:

> Hey i want to get off my windows dependency for reading email and using the net but i'm not sure how to do this. i need some help to get away from...microcrap. help?
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: getting off my windows dependency

[Farhan]

networking is working and yes. a billion would be nice. i just need help 
with email. my email acount uses SSL connections ...and useing the internet 
lynx show-cursor doesn't like me.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kirk Reiser" <kirk@braille.uwo.ca>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 9:16 AM
Subject: Re: getting off my windows dependency


> What do you need help with?  Saying you want help with no details is
> like absolutely useless.  Do you have your networking going?  If not,
> tell us what is and what is not working currently.  I need a billion
> dollars! help!!
>
>  Kirk
>
> -- 
>
> Kirk Reiser The Computer Braille Facility
> e-mail: kirk@braille.uwo.ca University of Western Ontario
> phone: (519) 661-3061
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 

Re: getting off my windows dependency

[Kirk Reiser]

Okay this is better.  I believe that most of the mail clients such as
pine, mutt or fetch mail can use ssl if you are using a pop3/imap
server.  I can't say for sure because I only use smtp for both
directions.

I am not sure what you mean by show-cursor doesn't like you exactly
either.  I didn't think it was an alive feature but if it were that
might even be better.  I will include my .lynxrc file below which you
can cut out and drop into your home directory and modify for your
specifics.

Everyone around here has their own opinion on the best mail client so
I'll leave them convince you about that although like I said above I
think most of them support ssl connections these days.

  Kirk

# Lynx User Defaults File

# This file contains options saved from the Lynx Options Screen (normally
# with the '>' key).  There is normally no need to edit this file manually,
# since the defaults here can be controlled from the Options Screen, and the
# next time options are saved from the Options Screen this file will be
# completely rewritten.  You have been warned...
# If you are looking for the general configuration file - it is normally
# called lynx.cfg, and it has different content and a different format.
# It is not this file.

# accept_all_cookies allows the user to tell Lynx to automatically
# accept all cookies if desired.  The default is "FALSE" which will
# prompt for each cookie.  Set accept_all_cookies to "TRUE" to accept
# all cookies.
accept_all_cookies=off

# bookmark_file specifies the name and location of the default bookmark
# file into which the user can paste links for easy access at a later
# date.
bookmark_file=lynx_bookmarks.html

# If case_sensitive_searching is "on" then when the user invokes a search
# using the 's' or '/' keys, the search performed will be case sensitive
# instead of case INsensitive.  The default is usually "off".
case_sensitive_searching=off

# The character_set definition controls the representation of 8 bit
# characters for your terminal.  If 8 bit characters do not show up
# correctly on your screen you may try changing to a different 8 bit
# set or using the 7 bit character approximations.
# Current valid characters sets are:
#    Western (ISO-8859-1)
#    7 bit approximations (US-ASCII)
#    Western (ISO-8859-15)
#    Western (cp850)
#    Western (windows-1252)
#    IBM PC US codepage (cp437)
#    DEC Multinational
#    Macintosh (8 bit)
#    NeXT character set
#    HP Roman8
#    Chinese
#    Japanese (EUC-JP)
#    Japanese (Shift_JIS)
#    Korean
#    Taipei (Big5)
#    Vietnamese (VISCII)
#    Transparent
#    Eastern European (ISO-8859-2)
#    Eastern European (cp852)
#    Eastern European (windows-1250)
#    Latin 3 (ISO-8859-3)
#    Latin 4 (ISO-8859-4)
#    Baltic Rim (cp775)
#    Baltic Rim (windows-1257)
#    Cyrillic (ISO-8859-5)
#    Cyrillic (cp866)
#    Cyrillic (windows-1251)
#    Cyrillic (KOI8-R)
#    Arabic (ISO-8859-6)
#    Arabic (cp864)
#    Arabic (windows-1256)
#    Greek (ISO-8859-7)
#    Greek (cp737)
#    Greek2 (cp869)
#    Greek (windows-1253)
#    Hebrew (ISO-8859-8)
#    Hebrew (cp862)
#    Hebrew (windows-1255)
#    Turkish (ISO-8859-9)
#    ISO-8859-10
#    UNICODE (UTF-8)
#    RFC 1345 w/o Intro
#    RFC 1345 Mnemonic
#    Ukrainian Cyrillic (cp866u)
#    Ukrainian Cyrillic (KOI8-U)
character_set=Western (ISO-8859-1)

# cookie_accept_domains and cookie_reject_domains are comma-delimited
# lists of domains from which Lynx should automatically accept or reject
# all cookies.  If a domain is specified in both options, rejection will
# take precedence.  The accept_all_cookies parameter will override any
# settings made here.
cookie_accept_domains=

# cookie_file specifies the file from which to read persistent cookies.
# The default is ~/.lynx_cookies.
cookie_file=/usr/friends/kirk/.lynx_cookies

# cookie_loose_invalid_domains, cookie_strict_invalid_domains, and
# cookie_query_invalid_domains are comma-delimited lists of which domains
# should be subjected to varying degrees of validity checking.  If a
# domain is set to strict checking, strict conformance to RFC2109 will
# be applied.  A domain with loose checking will be allowed to set cookies
# with an invalid path or domain attribute.  All domains will default to
# querying the user for an invalid path or domain.
cookie_loose_invalid_domains=

cookie_query_invalid_domains=

cookie_reject_domains=

cookie_strict_invalid_domains=

# dir_list_styles specifies the directory list style under DIRED_SUPPORT
# (if implemented).  The default is "MIXED_STYLE", which sorts both
# files and directories together.  "FILES_FIRST" lists files first and
# "DIRECTORIES_FIRST" lists directories first.
dir_list_style=MIXED_STYLE

# If emacs_keys is to "on" then the normal EMACS movement keys:
#   ^N = down    ^P = up
#   ^B = left    ^F = right
# will be enabled.
emacs_keys=on

# file_editor specifies the editor to be invoked when editing local files
# or sending mail.  If no editor is specified, then file editing is disabled
# unless it is activated from the command line, and the built-in line editor
# will be used for sending mail.
file_editor=emacs

# The file_sorting_method specifies which value to sort on when viewing
# file lists such as FTP directories.  The options are:
#    BY_FILENAME -- sorts on the name of the file
#    BY_TYPE     -- sorts on the type of the file
#    BY_SIZE     -- sorts on the size of the file
#    BY_DATE     -- sorts on the date of the file
file_sorting_method=BY_FILENAME

# If keypad_mode is set to "NUMBERS_AS_ARROWS", then the numbers on
# your keypad when the numlock is on will act as arrow keys:
#             8 = Up Arrow
#   4 = Left Arrow    6 = Right Arrow
#             2 = Down Arrow
# and the corresponding keyboard numbers will act as arrow keys,
# regardless of whether numlock is on.
# If keypad_mode is set to "LINKS_ARE_NUMBERED", then numbers will
# appear next to each link and numbers are used to select links.
# If keypad_mode is set to "LINKS_AND_FORM_FIELDS_ARE_NUMBERED", then
# numbers will appear next to each link and visible form input field.
# Numbers are used to select links, or to move the "current link" to a
# form input field or button.  In addition, options in popup menus are
# indexed so that the user may type an option number to select an option in
# a popup menu, even if the option isn't visible on the screen.  Reference
# lists and output from the list command also enumerate form inputs.
# NOTE: Some fixed format documents may look disfigured when
# "LINKS_ARE_NUMBERED" or "LINKS_AND_FORM_FIELDS_ARE_NUMBERED" are
# enabled.
keypad_mode=NUMBERS_AS_ARROWS

# lineedit_mode specifies the key binding used for inputting strings in
# prompts and forms.  If lineedit_mode is set to "Default Binding" then
# the following control characters are used for moving and deleting:

#              Prev  Next       Enter = Accept input
#    Move char: <-    ->        ^G    = Cancel input
#    Move word: ^P    ^N        ^U    = Erase line
#  Delete char: ^H    ^R        ^A    = Beginning of line
#  Delete word: ^B    ^F        ^E    = End of line

# Current lineedit modes are:
#    Bash-like Bindings
#    Default Binding
#    Alternate Bindings
lineedit_mode=Default Binding

# The following allow you to define sub-bookmark files and descriptions.
# The format is multi_bookmark<capital_letter>=<filename>,<description>
# Up to 26 bookmark files (for the English capital letters) are allowed.
# We start with "multi_bookmarkB" since 'A' is the default (see above).
multi_bookmarkB=
multi_bookmarkC=
multi_bookmarkD=
multi_bookmarkE=
multi_bookmarkF=
multi_bookmarkG=
multi_bookmarkH=
multi_bookmarkI=
multi_bookmarkJ=
multi_bookmarkK=
multi_bookmarkL=
multi_bookmarkM=
multi_bookmarkN=
multi_bookmarkO=
multi_bookmarkP=
multi_bookmarkQ=
multi_bookmarkR=
multi_bookmarkS=
multi_bookmarkT=
multi_bookmarkU=
multi_bookmarkV=
multi_bookmarkW=
multi_bookmarkX=
multi_bookmarkY=
multi_bookmarkZ=

# personal_mail_address specifies your personal mail address.  The
# address will be sent during HTTP file transfers for authorization and
# logging purposes, and for mailed comments.
# If you do not want this information given out, set the NO_FROM_HEADER
# to TRUE in lynx.cfg, or use the -nofrom command line switch.  You also
# could leave this field blank, but then you won't have it included in
# your mailed comments.
personal_mail_address=kirk@braille.uwo.ca

# preferred_charset specifies the character set in MIME notation (e.g.,
# ISO-8859-2, ISO-8859-5) which Lynx will indicate you prefer in requests
# to http servers using an Accept-Charset header.  The value should NOT
# include ISO-8859-1 or US-ASCII, since those values are always assumed
# by default.  May be a comma-separated list.
# If a file in that character set is available, the server will send it.
# If no Accept-Charset header is present, the default is that any
# character set is acceptable.  If an Accept-Charset header is present,
# and if the server cannot send a response which is acceptable
# according to the Accept-Charset header, then the server SHOULD send
# an error response, though the sending of an unacceptable response
# is also allowed.
preferred_charset=

# preferred_language specifies the language in MIME notation (e.g., en,
# fr, may be a comma-separated list in decreasing preference)
# which Lynx will indicate you prefer in requests to http servers.
# If a file in that language is available, the server will send it.
# Otherwise, the server will send the file in it's default language.
preferred_language=en

# select_popups specifies whether the OPTIONs in a SELECT block which
# lacks a MULTIPLE attribute are presented as a vertical list of radio
# buttons or via a popup menu.  Note that if the MULTIPLE attribute is
# present in the SELECT start tag, Lynx always will create a vertical list
# of checkboxes for the OPTIONs.  A value of "on" will set popup menus
# as the default while a value of "off" will set use of radio boxes.
# The default can be overridden via the -popup command line toggle.
select_popups=on

# show_color specifies how to set the color mode at startup.  A value of
# "never" will force color mode off (treat the terminal as monochrome)
# at startup even if the terminal appears to be color capable.  A value of
# "always" will force color mode on even if the terminal appears to be
# monochrome, if this is supported by the library used to build lynx.
# A value of "default" will yield the behavior of assuming
# a monochrome terminal unless color capability is inferred at startup
# based on the terminal type, or the -color command line switch is used, or
# the COLORTERM environment variable is set.  The default behavior always is
# used in anonymous accounts or if the "option_save" restriction is set.
# The effect of the saved value can be overridden via
# the -color and -nocolor command line switches.
# The mode set at startup can be changed via the "show color" option in
# the 'o'ptions menu.  If the option settings are saved, the "on" and
# "off" "show color" settings will be treated as "default".
show_color=always

# show_cursor specifies whether to 'hide' the cursor to the right (and
# bottom, if possible) of the screen, or to place it to the left of the
# current link in documents, or current option in select popup windows.
# Positioning the cursor to the left of the current link or option is
# helpful for speech or braille interfaces, and when the terminal is
# one which does not distinguish the current link based on highlighting
# or color.  A value of "on" will set positioning to the left as the
# default while a value of "off" will set 'hiding' of the cursor.
# The default can be overridden via the -show_cursor command line toggle.
show_cursor=on

# show_dotfiles specifies that the directory listing should include
# "hidden" (dot) files/directories.  If set "on", this will be
# honored only if enabled via userdefs.h and/or lynx.cfg, and not
# restricted via a command line switch.  If display of hidden files
# is disabled, creation of such files via Lynx also is disabled.
show_dotfiles=off

# If sub_bookmarks is not turned "off", and multiple bookmarks have
# been defined (see below), then all bookmark operations will first
# prompt the user to select an active sub-bookmark file.  If the default
# Lynx bookmark_file is defined (see above), it will be used as the
# default selection.  When this option is set to "advanced", and the
# user mode is advanced, the 'v'iew bookmark command will invoke a
# statusline prompt instead of the menu seen in novice and intermediate
# user modes.  When this option is set to "standard", the menu will be
# presented regardless of user mode.
sub_bookmarks=OFF

# user_mode specifies the users level of knowledge with Lynx.  The
# default is "NOVICE" which displays two extra lines of help at the
# bottom of the screen to aid the user in learning the basic Lynx
# commands.  Set user_mode to "INTERMEDIATE" to turn off the extra info.
# Use "ADVANCED" to see the URL of the currently selected link at the
# bottom of the screen.
user_mode=ADVANCED

# If verbose_images is "on", lynx will print the name of the image
# source file in place of [INLINE], [LINK] or [IMAGE]
# See also VERBOSE_IMAGES in lynx.cfg
verbose_images=on

# If vi_keys is set to "on", then the normal VI movement keys:
#   j = down    k = up
#   h = left    l = right
# will be enabled.  These keys are only lower case.
# Capital 'H', 'J' and 'K will still activate help, jump shortcuts,
# and the keymap display, respectively.
vi_keys=off

# The visited_links setting controls how Lynx organizes the information
# in the Visited Links Page.
visited_links=LAST_REVERSED


-- 

Kirk Reiser				The Computer Braille Facility
e-mail: kirk@braille.uwo.ca		University of Western Ontario
phone: (519) 661-3061

Re: getting off my windows dependency

[Sean McMahon]

The short answer is read some documentation.  Unlike windows you can't go
putsing along guessing what to do, you have to learn and understand your
programs a little more.  Do you need basic command support?  Some good programs?
Places to look for further help? What you want to do is certainly doable in
linux.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Farhan" <i.am.farhan@gmail.com>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 7:45 AM
Subject: getting off my windows dependency


Hey i want to get off my windows dependency for reading email and using the net
but i'm not sure how to do this. i need some help to get away from...microcrap.
help?
_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: getting off my windows dependency

[Farhan]

yes, i actaully tried lynx and it was sorta wierd, i'll try elinks and see 
what happens do i have to type elinks show-cursor or not
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <mikster4@msn.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 11:36 AM
Subject: Re: getting off my windows dependency


> Would be helpful if you described what you want help with.
>
> I will assume that you meant what e-mail clients and web browsers are 
> there. I will assume you have your hardware sorted, and can get a 
> connection to the internet.
> I am currently writing this e-mail in cone. I like this because it allows 
> you to have multiple accounts specified, supports pop3, imap, smtp, local 
> mail and limited support for news accounts. I have found that cone does 
> not like my university imap server, so for that I use pine. There are many 
> more, and if you are using a distribution like Debian or Gentoo with many 
> packages and a package management system, search that for e-mail, or 
> similar.
>
> Web browsers, elinks is a good general purpose text based one, giving 
> cookies, java script, bookmarks, support for frames, and more. Most 
> pre-built packages of elinks do not seem to have java script, you may have 
> to build it from source (I found the patch included with elinks  0.11 did 
> not work on spidermonkey, so I had to compile spidermonkey with elinks 
> 0.10 first). Links2 comes with java script built in for most pre-built 
> packages, but links2 is more limited in features, elinks is a branch-off 
> from links2 and aims to give more features. Lynx is a very basic text 
> browser, but for simple things, I find best. There may be some for gnome, 
> but I don't know of these and their accessibility. Mike Farhan writes:
>
>> Hey i want to get off my windows dependency for reading email and using 
>> the net but i'm not sure how to do this. i need some help to get away 
>> from...microcrap. help?
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 

Audigy2

[Chris Gray]

Has anybody had experiences yet with Creative's Audigy2 sound card?  I'm 
particularly interested in using this under Debian Linux.

Thanks.

Chris

Re: Audigy2

[mikster4]

I can't talk about the PCI version, but the Audigy 2 NX (USB version of 
Audigy2) is possible to use. I think it is supported by alsa, and so 
you will want alsa installed. The 2.6.11 kernels come with alsa, the 
2.4 kernels will require the alsa modules. The Audigy 2 NX has problems 
with some sample rates, e.g. 44.1kHz, supposedly this can be solved by 
re-sampling the sound with software first. If any one can suggest some 
software to do this, I would be interested.
Mike
Chris Gray writes:

> Has anybody had experiences yet with Creative's Audigy2 sound card?  I'm 
> particularly interested in using this under Debian Linux.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Chris
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: Audigy2

[Gregory Nowak]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Thu, Mar 10, 2005 at 07:01:42PM +0000, mikster4@msn.com wrote:
supposedly this can be solved by 
> re-sampling the sound with software first. If any one can suggest some 
> software to do this, I would be interested.

Try sox, which comes with nearly every distribution of gnu/linux.

Greg



- -- 
Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org
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Re: getting off my windows dependency

[mikster4]

I am not sure what you are meaning about show cursor. If you mean for  
it to show a cursor like in a text editor, I am not aware of one. I 
read the page with the numpad review keys, and use the cursor keys to 
move the highlight between page objects (e.g. links, text boxes, 
buttons, etc). Windows screen readers give you a false impression, 
they make it possible to cursor through the page like a word 
processor, in fact remove the screen reader, and that is no longer so. 

All settings for elinks can be reached through the menu system, and 
the screens that appear. You may find the setting screens more usable if you 
have no page loaded. Also you will find you will have to keep changing 
between cursoring mode in speakup.
Mike
 Farhan writes:

> yes, i actaully tried lynx and it was sorta wierd, i'll try elinks and see 
> what happens do i have to type elinks show-cursor or not
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <mikster4@msn.com>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 11:36 AM
> Subject: Re: getting off my windows dependency
> 
> 
>> Would be helpful if you described what you want help with.
>>
>> I will assume that you meant what e-mail clients and web browsers are 
>> there. I will assume you have your hardware sorted, and can get a 
>> connection to the internet.
>> I am currently writing this e-mail in cone. I like this because it allows 
>> you to have multiple accounts specified, supports pop3, imap, smtp, local 
>> mail and limited support for news accounts. I have found that cone does 
>> not like my university imap server, so for that I use pine. There are many 
>> more, and if you are using a distribution like Debian or Gentoo with many 
>> packages and a package management system, search that for e-mail, or 
>> similar.
>>
>> Web browsers, elinks is a good general purpose text based one, giving 
>> cookies, java script, bookmarks, support for frames, and more. Most 
>> pre-built packages of elinks do not seem to have java script, you may have 
>> to build it from source (I found the patch included with elinks  0.11 did 
>> not work on spidermonkey, so I had to compile spidermonkey with elinks 
>> 0.10 first). Links2 comes with java script built in for most pre-built 
>> packages, but links2 is more limited in features, elinks is a branch-off 
>> from links2 and aims to give more features. Lynx is a very basic text 
>> browser, but for simple things, I find best. There may be some for gnome, 
>> but I don't know of these and their accessibility. Mike Farhan writes:
>>
>>> Hey i want to get off my windows dependency for reading email and using 
>>> the net but i'm not sure how to do this. i need some help to get away 
>>> from...microcrap. help?
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: Audigy2

[mikster4]

Hi,
I hadn't noticed that sox can output to a sound card. It does work though.
Is there anything that can work in the background, and re-sample everything 
that goes to the sound card, it is just I want to use that sound card for 
listening to my music, and sox is not designed for loading a list of files 
or a playlist.
Mike
 Gregory Nowak writes:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On Thu, Mar 10, 2005 at 07:01:42PM +0000, mikster4@msn.com wrote:
> supposedly this can be solved by 
>> re-sampling the sound with software first. If any one can suggest some 
>> software to do this, I would be interested.
> 
> Try sox, which comes with nearly every distribution of gnu/linux.
> 
> Greg
> 
> 
> 
> - -- 
> Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux)
> 
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> =rFq7
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

RE: getting off my windows dependency

[Sina Bahram]

Actually, I don't know why that is a false impression: they do not give you
the illusion of a text editor, as the data is read only, and also it makes
copying and pasting more intuitive ... Sited users can drag the mouse across
some text, highlighting it, and then do whatever with it, so I see no reason
why visually impaired users should not also have this ability?

Furthermore, I'm assuming you know this already since you brought windows
screenreaders into it, they call their cursors differently when doing this:
for example, jaws refers to it as a virtual cursor, specifically designed
for exactly this.

Supernova and wineyes have similar naming conventions, but the illude me
right now; however, all the rellavent manuals and information is availible
on the respective companies' websites.

I just found your statement a bit weird, since I don't believe that the
purpose of a website as purely presentational, should be always taken over
the obvious content that websites provide.

Take care,
Sina

-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of mikster4@msn.com
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 2:13 PM
To: speakup@braille.uwo.ca
Subject: Re: getting off my windows dependency

I am not sure what you are meaning about show cursor. If you mean for it to
show a cursor like in a text editor, I am not aware of one. I read the page
with the numpad review keys, and use the cursor keys to move the highlight
between page objects (e.g. links, text boxes, buttons, etc). Windows screen
readers give you a false impression, they make it possible to cursor through
the page like a word processor, in fact remove the screen reader, and that
is no longer so. 

All settings for elinks can be reached through the menu system, and the
screens that appear. You may find the setting screens more usable if you
have no page loaded. Also you will find you will have to keep changing
between cursoring mode in speakup.
Mike
 Farhan writes:

> yes, i actaully tried lynx and it was sorta wierd, i'll try elinks and 
> see what happens do i have to type elinks show-cursor or not
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <mikster4@msn.com>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 11:36 AM
> Subject: Re: getting off my windows dependency
> 
> 
>> Would be helpful if you described what you want help with.
>>
>> I will assume that you meant what e-mail clients and web browsers are 
>> there. I will assume you have your hardware sorted, and can get a 
>> connection to the internet.
>> I am currently writing this e-mail in cone. I like this because it 
>> allows you to have multiple accounts specified, supports pop3, imap, 
>> smtp, local mail and limited support for news accounts. I have found 
>> that cone does not like my university imap server, so for that I use 
>> pine. There are many more, and if you are using a distribution like 
>> Debian or Gentoo with many packages and a package management system, 
>> search that for e-mail, or similar.
>>
>> Web browsers, elinks is a good general purpose text based one, giving 
>> cookies, java script, bookmarks, support for frames, and more. Most 
>> pre-built packages of elinks do not seem to have java script, you may 
>> have to build it from source (I found the patch included with elinks  
>> 0.11 did not work on spidermonkey, so I had to compile spidermonkey 
>> with elinks 0.10 first). Links2 comes with java script built in for 
>> most pre-built packages, but links2 is more limited in features, 
>> elinks is a branch-off from links2 and aims to give more features. 
>> Lynx is a very basic text browser, but for simple things, I find 
>> best. There may be some for gnome, but I don't know of these and their
accessibility. Mike Farhan writes:
>>
>>> Hey i want to get off my windows dependency for reading email and 
>>> using the net but i'm not sure how to do this. i need some help to 
>>> get away from...microcrap. help?
>>> _______________________________________________

Re: getting off my windows dependency

[mikster4]

Sina Bahram writes:

> Actually, I don't know why that is a false impression: they do not give you
> the illusion of a text editor, as the data is read only, and also it makes
> copying and pasting more intuitive ... Sited users can drag the mouse across
> some text, highlighting it, and then do whatever with it, so I see no reason
> why visually impaired users should not also have this ability?
I was maening more that it is not how the web browser works itself, it is 
something inserted by the screen reader. Normally you can't cursor around 
the page in a web browser, only jump between the controls. Maybe it is my 
mistake, but I thought the person was expecting this behaviour to be in the 
web browser.
> 
> Furthermore, I'm assuming you know this already since you brought windows
> screenreaders into it, they call their cursors differently when doing this:
> for example, jaws refers to it as a virtual cursor, specifically designed
> for exactly this.
> 
> Supernova and wineyes have similar naming conventions, but the illude me
> right now; however, all the rellavent manuals and information is availible
> on the respective companies' websites.
> 
> I just found your statement a bit weird, since I don't believe that the
> purpose of a website as purely presentational, should be always taken over
> the obvious content that websites provide.
> 
> Take care,
> Sina
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
> On Behalf Of mikster4@msn.com
> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 2:13 PM
> To: speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> Subject: Re: getting off my windows dependency
> 
> I am not sure what you are meaning about show cursor. If you mean for it to
> show a cursor like in a text editor, I am not aware of one. I read the page
> with the numpad review keys, and use the cursor keys to move the highlight
> between page objects (e.g. links, text boxes, buttons, etc). Windows screen
> readers give you a false impression, they make it possible to cursor through
> the page like a word processor, in fact remove the screen reader, and that
> is no longer so. 
> 
> All settings for elinks can be reached through the menu system, and the
> screens that appear. You may find the setting screens more usable if you
> have no page loaded. Also you will find you will have to keep changing
> between cursoring mode in speakup.
> Mike
>  Farhan writes:
> 
>> yes, i actaully tried lynx and it was sorta wierd, i'll try elinks and 
>> see what happens do i have to type elinks show-cursor or not
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <mikster4@msn.com>
>> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 11:36 AM
>> Subject: Re: getting off my windows dependency
>> 
>> 
>>> Would be helpful if you described what you want help with.
>>>
>>> I will assume that you meant what e-mail clients and web browsers are 
>>> there. I will assume you have your hardware sorted, and can get a 
>>> connection to the internet.
>>> I am currently writing this e-mail in cone. I like this because it 
>>> allows you to have multiple accounts specified, supports pop3, imap, 
>>> smtp, local mail and limited support for news accounts. I have found 
>>> that cone does not like my university imap server, so for that I use 
>>> pine. There are many more, and if you are using a distribution like 
>>> Debian or Gentoo with many packages and a package management system, 
>>> search that for e-mail, or similar.
>>>
>>> Web browsers, elinks is a good general purpose text based one, giving 
>>> cookies, java script, bookmarks, support for frames, and more. Most 
>>> pre-built packages of elinks do not seem to have java script, you may 
>>> have to build it from source (I found the patch included with elinks  
>>> 0.11 did not work on spidermonkey, so I had to compile spidermonkey 
>>> with elinks 0.10 first). Links2 comes with java script built in for 
>>> most pre-built packages, but links2 is more limited in features, 
>>> elinks is a branch-off from links2 and aims to give more features. 
>>> Lynx is a very basic text browser, but for simple things, I find 
>>> best. There may be some for gnome, but I don't know of these and their
> accessibility. Mike Farhan writes:
>>>
>>>> Hey i want to get off my windows dependency for reading email and 
>>>> using the net but i'm not sure how to do this. i need some help to 
>>>> get away from...microcrap. help?
>>>> _______________________________________________
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: getting off my windows dependency

[Toby Fisher]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kirk Reiser" <kirk@braille.uwo.ca>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 6:04 PM
Subject: Re: getting off my windows dependency


> Okay this is better.  I believe that most of the mail clients such as
> pine, mutt or fetch mail can use ssl if you are using a pop3/imap
> server.  I can't say for sure because I only use smtp for both
> directions.

Pine can cope quite happily with ssl for imap, for both reading and sending. 
Can't speak for any other client I'm afraid.

HTH

> I am not sure what you mean by show-cursor doesn't like you exactly
> either.  I didn't think it was an alive feature but if it were that
> might even be better.

Be afraid ...

Toby

RE: getting off my windows dependency

[jim grimsby]

Hi, I downloaded a  speech friendly version of the config file for lynx.
Should it go in the home directory or the etc directory?  
Thanks

RE: getting off my windows dependency

[jim grimsby]

Well mozila god I hope I am spelling that right does infact allow you to
turn on a cursor and move threw the hole web page just as you would a word
processor.  And this feature is not built in to the screen reader but in the
browser.  

Re: getting off my windows dependency

[Janina Sajka]

What does "weird" mean?

The -show_cursor argument is for lynx with a y, not elinks. Pay
attention.

Farhan writes:
> yes, i actaully tried lynx and it was sorta wierd, i'll try elinks and see 
> what happens do i have to type elinks show-cursor or not
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <mikster4@msn.com>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 11:36 AM
> Subject: Re: getting off my windows dependency
> 
> 
> >Would be helpful if you described what you want help with.
> >
> >I will assume that you meant what e-mail clients and web browsers are 
> >there. I will assume you have your hardware sorted, and can get a 
> >connection to the internet.
> >I am currently writing this e-mail in cone. I like this because it allows 
> >you to have multiple accounts specified, supports pop3, imap, smtp, local 
> >mail and limited support for news accounts. I have found that cone does 
> >not like my university imap server, so for that I use pine. There are many 
> >more, and if you are using a distribution like Debian or Gentoo with many 
> >packages and a package management system, search that for e-mail, or 
> >similar.
> >
> >Web browsers, elinks is a good general purpose text based one, giving 
> >cookies, java script, bookmarks, support for frames, and more. Most 
> >pre-built packages of elinks do not seem to have java script, you may have 
> >to build it from source (I found the patch included with elinks  0.11 did 
> >not work on spidermonkey, so I had to compile spidermonkey with elinks 
> >0.10 first). Links2 comes with java script built in for most pre-built 
> >packages, but links2 is more limited in features, elinks is a branch-off 
> >from links2 and aims to give more features. Lynx is a very basic text 
> >browser, but for simple things, I find best. There may be some for gnome, 
> >but I don't know of these and their accessibility. Mike Farhan writes:
> >
> >>Hey i want to get off my windows dependency for reading email and using 
> >>the net but i'm not sure how to do this. i need some help to get away 
> >>from...microcrap. help?
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Speakup mailing list
> >>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >>
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 

Janina Sajka				Phone: +1.202.494.7040
Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC	http://www.CapitalAccessibility.Com

Chair, Accessibility Workgroup		Free Standards Group (FSG)
janina@freestandards.org		http://a11y.org

If Linux can't solve your computing problem, you need a different problem.

Re: getting off my windows dependency

[Janina Sajka]

to ignore the system cursor. It's parked in the lower left hand corner.

If you expect lynx to behave like IE, you're going to be frustrated. It
doesn't.

Up and down arrow moves through focusable elements, i.e. hyperlinks,
drop-down lists, form fields, etc.

Since you can't edit the text of a web page in lynx, there's really no
point to the default Windows behavior, imho. Reading with the screen
review keys is what most of us do.

mikster4@msn.com writes:
> I am not sure what you are meaning about show cursor. If you mean for  
> it to show a cursor like in a text editor, I am not aware of one. I 
> read the page with the numpad review keys, and use the cursor keys to 
> move the highlight between page objects (e.g. links, text boxes, 
> buttons, etc). Windows screen readers give you a false impression, 
> they make it possible to cursor through the page like a word 
> processor, in fact remove the screen reader, and that is no longer so. 
> 
> All settings for elinks can be reached through the menu system, and 
> the screens that appear. You may find the setting screens more usable if 
> you have no page loaded. Also you will find you will have to keep changing 
> between cursoring mode in speakup.
> Mike
> Farhan writes:
> 
> >yes, i actaully tried lynx and it was sorta wierd, i'll try elinks and see 
> >what happens do i have to type elinks show-cursor or not
> >----- Original Message ----- 
> >From: <mikster4@msn.com>
> >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> >Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 11:36 AM
> >Subject: Re: getting off my windows dependency
> >
> >
> >>Would be helpful if you described what you want help with.
> >>
> >>I will assume that you meant what e-mail clients and web browsers are 
> >>there. I will assume you have your hardware sorted, and can get a 
> >>connection to the internet.
> >>I am currently writing this e-mail in cone. I like this because it allows 
> >>you to have multiple accounts specified, supports pop3, imap, smtp, local 
> >>mail and limited support for news accounts. I have found that cone does 
> >>not like my university imap server, so for that I use pine. There are 
> >>many more, and if you are using a distribution like Debian or Gentoo with 
> >>many packages and a package management system, search that for e-mail, or 
> >>similar.
> >>
> >>Web browsers, elinks is a good general purpose text based one, giving 
> >>cookies, java script, bookmarks, support for frames, and more. Most 
> >>pre-built packages of elinks do not seem to have java script, you may 
> >>have to build it from source (I found the patch included with elinks  
> >>0.11 did not work on spidermonkey, so I had to compile spidermonkey with 
> >>elinks 0.10 first). Links2 comes with java script built in for most 
> >>pre-built packages, but links2 is more limited in features, elinks is a 
> >>branch-off from links2 and aims to give more features. Lynx is a very 
> >>basic text browser, but for simple things, I find best. There may be some 
> >>for gnome, but I don't know of these and their accessibility. Mike Farhan 
> >>writes:
> >>
> >>>Hey i want to get off my windows dependency for reading email and using 
> >>>the net but i'm not sure how to do this. i need some help to get away 
> >>>from...microcrap. help?
> >>>_______________________________________________
> >>>Speakup mailing list
> >>>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >>>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >>>
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Speakup mailing list
> >>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 

Janina Sajka				Phone: +1.202.494.7040
Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC	http://www.CapitalAccessibility.Com

Chair, Accessibility Workgroup		Free Standards Group (FSG)
janina@freestandards.org		http://a11y.org

If Linux can't solve your computing problem, you need a different problem.

Re: getting off my windows dependency

[Janina Sajka]

And, it's one thing that makes Mozilla an inferior browser experience at
this time.

jim grimsby writes:
> Well mozila god I hope I am spelling that right does infact allow you to
> turn on a cursor and move threw the hole web page just as you would a word
> processor.  And this feature is not built in to the screen reader but in the
> browser.  
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 

Janina Sajka				Phone: +1.202.494.7040
Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC	http://www.CapitalAccessibility.Com

Chair, Accessibility Workgroup		Free Standards Group (FSG)
janina@freestandards.org		http://a11y.org

If Linux can't solve your computing problem, you need a different problem.

Re: getting off my windows dependency

[Janina Sajka]

"doesn't like me" is not something that anyone can help you with.

You'll have to stick to facts if you want help. Emotional responses will
get you a pat on the head, or a kick in the you know where, but won't
help you one wit.

Farhan writes:
> networking is working and yes. a billion would be nice. i just need help 
> with email. my email acount uses SSL connections ...and useing the internet 
> lynx show-cursor doesn't like me.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Kirk Reiser" <kirk@braille.uwo.ca>
> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 9:16 AM
> Subject: Re: getting off my windows dependency
> 
> 
> >What do you need help with?  Saying you want help with no details is
> >like absolutely useless.  Do you have your networking going?  If not,
> >tell us what is and what is not working currently.  I need a billion
> >dollars! help!!
> >
> > Kirk
> >
> >-- 
> >
> >Kirk Reiser The Computer Braille Facility
> >e-mail: kirk@braille.uwo.ca University of Western Ontario
> >phone: (519) 661-3061
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 

Janina Sajka				Phone: +1.202.494.7040
Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC	http://www.CapitalAccessibility.Com

Chair, Accessibility Workgroup		Free Standards Group (FSG)
janina@freestandards.org		http://a11y.org

If Linux can't solve your computing problem, you need a different problem.

Re: getting off my windows dependency

[Sean McMahon]

If it's lynx.cfg it can go where ever you want.  If others access your system,
you'd want it in the home directory.  If not that is up to you.  If it's the
.lynxrc file, that goes in your home directory.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "jim grimsby" <jimgrims@pacbell.net>
To: "'Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.'" <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 7:02 PM
Subject: RE: getting off my windows dependency


> Hi, I downloaded a  speech friendly version of the config file for lynx.
> Should it go in the home directory or the etc directory?
> Thanks
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: getting off my windows dependency

[Janina Sajka]

Under Fedora (at the least), /etc/lynx.cfg is no longer intended to be
user editable. Rather, system local edits should go in
/etc/lynx-site.cfg which will be persistent across upgrades.

Sean McMahon writes:
> If it's lynx.cfg it can go where ever you want.  If others access your system,
> you'd want it in the home directory.  If not that is up to you.  If it's the
> .lynxrc file, that goes in your home directory.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "jim grimsby" <jimgrims@pacbell.net>
> To: "'Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.'" <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 7:02 PM
> Subject: RE: getting off my windows dependency
> 
> 
> > Hi, I downloaded a  speech friendly version of the config file for lynx.
> > Should it go in the home directory or the etc directory?
> > Thanks
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 

Janina Sajka				Phone: +1.202.494.7040
Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC	http://www.CapitalAccessibility.Com

Chair, Accessibility Workgroup		Free Standards Group (FSG)
janina@freestandards.org		http://a11y.org

If Linux can't solve your computing problem, you need a different problem.

Re: getting off my windows dependency

[seth creature]

Hi there, as it happens, I am curious about the lynx.cfg file, should it 
have a leading dot as the .lynxrc?
Thanks...
Cheereo!


On Fri, 11 Mar 2005, Sean McMahon wrote:

> If it's lynx.cfg it can go where ever you want.  If others access your system,
> you'd want it in the home directory.  If not that is up to you.  If it's the
> .lynxrc file, that goes in your home directory.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "jim grimsby" <jimgrims@pacbell.net>
> To: "'Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.'" <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 7:02 PM
> Subject: RE: getting off my windows dependency
>
>
>> Hi, I downloaded a  speech friendly version of the config file for lynx.
>> Should it go in the home directory or the etc directory?
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: getting off my windows dependency

[Janina Sajka]

No. The traditional situation puts lynx.cfg (without the leading dot) in
/etc, while individual settings go in your home directory as the hidden
file, .lynxrc.

Obviously, lynx supports loading a different lynx.cfg, and that could
certainly live anywhere.

Note also my recent post about the new strategy of system wide
customizations going into a /etc/lynx-site.cfg file.

seth creature writes:
> Hi there, as it happens, I am curious about the lynx.cfg file, should it 
> have a leading dot as the .lynxrc?
> Thanks...
> Cheereo!
> 
> 
> On Fri, 11 Mar 2005, Sean McMahon wrote:
> 
> >If it's lynx.cfg it can go where ever you want.  If others access your 
> >system,
> >you'd want it in the home directory.  If not that is up to you.  If it's 
> >the
> >.lynxrc file, that goes in your home directory.
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "jim grimsby" <jimgrims@pacbell.net>
> >To: "'Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.'" 
> ><speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> >Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 7:02 PM
> >Subject: RE: getting off my windows dependency
> >
> >
> >>Hi, I downloaded a  speech friendly version of the config file for lynx.
> >>Should it go in the home directory or the etc directory?
> >>Thanks
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Speakup mailing list
> >>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 

Janina Sajka				Phone: +1.202.494.7040
Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC	http://www.CapitalAccessibility.Com

Chair, Accessibility Workgroup		Free Standards Group (FSG)
janina@freestandards.org		http://a11y.org

If Linux can't solve your computing problem, you need a different problem.

Re: getting off my windows dependency

[seth creature]

Thanks much... now I know where to put the one I downloaded.
Cheereo!

Re: getting off my windows dependency

[Lorenzo Taylor]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I have found that windows screen readers simply give you too much information
that you will never need, and their bad habbit of putting each column entry in a
table on it's own virtual line is just too weird for me.  And it doesn't stop
there, either.  When copying and pasting a web page using Jaws, (I can't ssay
that this is true of Window Eyes, as I haven't had all that much experience with
it), things like "nested table with 6 columns and 27 rows nesting level 2" get
into the pasted text, and all links and table column entries are on their own
lines in the pasted text so that the entire look of the web page is lost.  This
may be perfectly OK if you are only sharing the pasted portion of a page with
blind users, but it confuses the heck out of any sited people who see it, so
don't try to copy a really funny or informative section of a web page and paste
it into an email to all your sited friends if you are using Jaws without doing
some very serious editing which requires more knowledge of the layout of the
original page than even Jaws will give you.

Just my $0.02

Lorenzo
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Re: getting off my windows dependency

[Sergei V. Fleytin]

Hello, listers,

>>>>> "m" == mikster4  <mikster4@msn.com> writes:

m> I was maening more that it is not how the web browser works itself,
m> it is something inserted by the screen reader. Normally you can't
m> cursor around the page in a web browser, only jump between the
m> controls. Maybe it is my mistake, but I thought the person was
m> expecting this behaviour to be in the web browser.

I'd like to make some comment concerning this topic. Both links2 and
elinks allow users to navigate within a page like in an editor. Links2
provide what they call "braille terminal" wich, in my opinion is a
very cool and convenient feature. Elinks also can be customize to
behave in similar fashion though it would not be as blind friendly as
braille terminal in links2. But elinks has so many cool features,
including tab browsing, that it really worth our attention. Below is a
fragment from my elinks.conf wich allow to move by characters and
lines within elinks using vi-like keybindings.


bind "main" "k" = "move-cursor-up"
bind "main" "l" = "move-cursor-right"
bind "main" "h" = "move-cursor-left"
bind "main" "j" = "move-cursor-down"

set ui.show_status_bar = 0

I hope it would be useful for someone.


-- 
With best regards, Sergei.

Re: getting off my windows dependency

[Janina Sajka]

Why would browsing by line, word, or char be a browser feature? It seems
to me such functionality is the responsibility of the assistive
technology, not the browser.

Also, when you say "tab browsing," what does that mean? Is there some
unique definition of tab browsing in elinks?


Sergei V. Fleytin writes:
> Hello, listers,
> 
> >>>>> "m" == mikster4  <mikster4@msn.com> writes:
> 
> m> I was maening more that it is not how the web browser works itself,
> m> it is something inserted by the screen reader. Normally you can't
> m> cursor around the page in a web browser, only jump between the
> m> controls. Maybe it is my mistake, but I thought the person was
> m> expecting this behaviour to be in the web browser.
> 
> I'd like to make some comment concerning this topic. Both links2 and
> elinks allow users to navigate within a page like in an editor. Links2
> provide what they call "braille terminal" wich, in my opinion is a
> very cool and convenient feature. Elinks also can be customize to
> behave in similar fashion though it would not be as blind friendly as
> braille terminal in links2. But elinks has so many cool features,
> including tab browsing, that it really worth our attention. Below is a
> fragment from my elinks.conf wich allow to move by characters and
> lines within elinks using vi-like keybindings.
> 
> 
> bind "main" "k" = "move-cursor-up"
> bind "main" "l" = "move-cursor-right"
> bind "main" "h" = "move-cursor-left"
> bind "main" "j" = "move-cursor-down"
> 
> set ui.show_status_bar = 0
> 
> I hope it would be useful for someone.
> 
> 
> -- 
> With best regards, Sergei.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 

Janina Sajka				Phone: +1.202.494.7040
Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC	http://www.CapitalAccessibility.Com

Chair, Accessibility Workgroup		Free Standards Group (FSG)
janina@freestandards.org		http://a11y.org

If Linux can't solve your computing problem, you need a different problem.

Re[2]: getting off my windows dependency

[Farhan]

well, look at it this way. with window eyes and jaws they put each link on one line each. with supernova it doesn't do that. see, it differs even in windows. with lynx and elynx you look at it from a sorta sighted perspective, with out the websites beeing all processed.
on 4/4/2005 janina@rednote.netJanina Sajka
said
Why would browsing by line, word, or char be a browser feature? It seems
to me such functionality is the responsibility of the assistive
technology, not the browser.

Also, when you say "tab browsing," what does that mean? Is there some
unique definition of tab browsing in elinks?


Sergei V. Fleytin writes:
> Hello, listers,
> 
> >>>>> "m" == mikster4  <mikster4@msn.com> writes:
> 
> m> I was maening more that it is not how the web browser works itself,
> m> it is something inserted by the screen reader. Normally you can't
> m> cursor around the page in a web browser, only jump between the
> m> controls. Maybe it is my mistake, but I thought the person was
> m> expecting this behaviour to be in the web browser.
> 
> I'd like to make some comment concerning this topic. Both links2 and
> elinks allow users to navigate within a page like in an editor. Links2
> provide what they call "braille terminal" wich, in my opinion is a
> very cool and convenient feature. Elinks also can be customize to
> behave in similar fashion though it would not be as blind friendly as
> braille terminal in links2. But elinks has so many cool features,
> including tab browsing, that it really worth our attention. Below is a
> fragment from my elinks.conf wich allow to move by characters and
> lines within elinks using vi-like keybindings.
> 
> 
> bind "main" "k" = "move-cursor-up"
> bind "main" "l" = "move-cursor-right"
> bind "main" "h" = "move-cursor-left"
> bind "main" "j" = "move-cursor-down"
> 
> set ui.show_status_bar = 0
> 
> I hope it would be useful for someone.
> 
> 
> -- 
> With best regards, Sergei.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 

Janina Sajka				Phone: +1.202.494.7040
Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC	http://www.CapitalAccessibility.Com

Chair, Accessibility Workgroup		Free Standards Group (FSG)
janina@freestandards.org		http://a11y.org

If Linux can't solve your computing problem, you need a different problem.


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: getting off my windows dependency

[Kenny Hitt]

Hi.

Tab browsing is a feature found in Mozilla as well as elinks.  The idea
is you have several pages open in a single browser session and you
switch between them by switching tabs.  Consider a javascript that pops
up a new window.  If it does it in a new tab, you can get back to the
actual site easily in the text console.
BTW, Mozilla actually opens a new Window instead of a tab which
can make browsing some sites a real pain.  Since the new
windows are not accessible most of the time you are forced to alt-tab
until you find the origional window displayint the site.
Due to Mozilla's limited accessibility, I've found it a bad idea to
close these windows.  It gets frustrating when you end up closing what
you think is the add only to find you closed the window displaying the
actual site.  With tabs, the "windows" are kept in the browser instead
of becoming another task on your window list.

Hope this helps.
          Kenny



On Mon, Apr 04, 2005 at 10:10:03AM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> Why would browsing by line, word, or char be a browser feature? It seems
> to me such functionality is the responsibility of the assistive
> technology, not the browser.
> 
> Also, when you say "tab browsing," what does that mean? Is there some
> unique definition of tab browsing in elinks?
> 
> 
> Sergei V. Fleytin writes:
> > Hello, listers,
> > 
> > >>>>> "m" == mikster4  <mikster4@msn.com> writes:
> > 
> > m> I was maening more that it is not how the web browser works itself,
> > m> it is something inserted by the screen reader. Normally you can't
> > m> cursor around the page in a web browser, only jump between the
> > m> controls. Maybe it is my mistake, but I thought the person was
> > m> expecting this behaviour to be in the web browser.
> > 
> > I'd like to make some comment concerning this topic. Both links2 and
> > elinks allow users to navigate within a page like in an editor. Links2
> > provide what they call "braille terminal" wich, in my opinion is a
> > very cool and convenient feature. Elinks also can be customize to
> > behave in similar fashion though it would not be as blind friendly as
> > braille terminal in links2. But elinks has so many cool features,
> > including tab browsing, that it really worth our attention. Below is a
> > fragment from my elinks.conf wich allow to move by characters and
> > lines within elinks using vi-like keybindings.
> > 
> > 
> > bind "main" "k" = "move-cursor-up"
> > bind "main" "l" = "move-cursor-right"
> > bind "main" "h" = "move-cursor-left"
> > bind "main" "j" = "move-cursor-down"
> > 
> > set ui.show_status_bar = 0
> > 
> > I hope it would be useful for someone.
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > With best regards, Sergei.
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> -- 
> 
> Janina Sajka				Phone: +1.202.494.7040
> Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC	http://www.CapitalAccessibility.Com
> 
> Chair, Accessibility Workgroup		Free Standards Group (FSG)
> janina@freestandards.org		http://a11y.org
> 
> If Linux can't solve your computing problem, you need a different problem.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: getting off my windows dependency

[Sergei V. Fleytin]

Hello, Janina,

>>>>> "JS" == Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net> writes:

JS> Why would browsing by line, word, or char be a browser feature? It
JS> seems to me such functionality is the responsibility of the
JS> assistive technology, not the browser.


Janina, I agree with you in general, but in my opinion it is not a
very bad things when developers have our needs in mind. Those of us
who used DOS operating system in the past should remember how many DOS
applications included support for blind users and therefore made our
life easeire even when some of us used screen reader with very poor
functionality. Therefore I am very pleased that some of the linux
developers follow such a good practise. 

-- 
With best regards, Sergei.

RE: getting off my windows dependency

[jim grimsby]

>>>>> "JS" == Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net> writes:

JS> Why would browsing by line, word, or char be a browser feature? It 
JS> seems to me such functionality is the responsibility of the 
JS> assistive technology, not the browser.
Another good reason is if you were just using the speakup review keys
every time you go to the end of the page you then have to hit page down
move the speakup scan cursor to the top of the screen to review the next
page with it built in as it should be you can just review the screen
with normal browser commands.  This feature and knowing about it just
maid my day.  
Now all we need is a conf file with everything all setup this way so all
we have to do is put the file in place.  Maybe put it on the speakup
sight.  Also configuration files for mutt and other programs to make it
more speakup user friendly.  In this way when a new user comes along we
can direct them to these files and say here you go.  
Also remember that a lot of users such as my self come from windows and
are used to these features in there web browsing it does not matter to
the average user what is making it work as long as it does.  
Hth 

Re: getting off my windows dependency

[Janina Sajka]

I'm afraid I don't understand your answer.

You're saying that the Windows screen readers handle browsers
differently. That part I understand. But, I wasn't asking about that.

I do think I do understand that you have a preference for output that is
rendered the same way as it would be without a screen reader. Well and
good. That may, or may not, be a valuable thing, depending on personal
choice, I expect.

But, haven't you configured your browser to provide you navigation in
the rendered content? I'm unaware that sighted users would have such a
requirement. I would rather expect they woudln't.

And, that takes me back to my first question: Isn't reviewing content
line by line, or word by word, or char by char, our requirement for
assistive technology, and not the browser? Seems to me it belongs with
AT, not browsers.

Farhan writes:
> well, look at it this way. with window eyes and jaws they put each link on one line each. with supernova it doesn't do that. see, it differs even in windows. with lynx and elynx you look at it from a sorta sighted perspective, with out the websites beeing all processed.
> on 4/4/2005 janina@rednote.netJanina Sajka
> said
> Why would browsing by line, word, or char be a browser feature? It seems
> to me such functionality is the responsibility of the assistive
> technology, not the browser.
> 
> Also, when you say "tab browsing," what does that mean? Is there some
> unique definition of tab browsing in elinks?
> 
> 
> Sergei V. Fleytin writes:
> > Hello, listers,
> > 
> > >>>>> "m" == mikster4  <mikster4@msn.com> writes:
> > 
> > m> I was maening more that it is not how the web browser works itself,
> > m> it is something inserted by the screen reader. Normally you can't
> > m> cursor around the page in a web browser, only jump between the
> > m> controls. Maybe it is my mistake, but I thought the person was
> > m> expecting this behaviour to be in the web browser.
> > 
> > I'd like to make some comment concerning this topic. Both links2 and
> > elinks allow users to navigate within a page like in an editor. Links2
> > provide what they call "braille terminal" wich, in my opinion is a
> > very cool and convenient feature. Elinks also can be customize to
> > behave in similar fashion though it would not be as blind friendly as
> > braille terminal in links2. But elinks has so many cool features,
> > including tab browsing, that it really worth our attention. Below is a
> > fragment from my elinks.conf wich allow to move by characters and
> > lines within elinks using vi-like keybindings.
> > 
> > 
> > bind "main" "k" = "move-cursor-up"
> > bind "main" "l" = "move-cursor-right"
> > bind "main" "h" = "move-cursor-left"
> > bind "main" "j" = "move-cursor-down"
> > 
> > set ui.show_status_bar = 0
> > 
> > I hope it would be useful for someone.
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > With best regards, Sergei.
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> -- 
> 
> Janina Sajka				Phone: +1.202.494.7040
> Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC	http://www.CapitalAccessibility.Com
> 
> Chair, Accessibility Workgroup		Free Standards Group (FSG)
> janina@freestandards.org		http://a11y.org
> 
> If Linux can't solve your computing problem, you need a different problem.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 

Janina Sajka				Phone: +1.202.494.7040
Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC	http://www.CapitalAccessibility.Com

Chair, Accessibility Workgroup		Free Standards Group (FSG)
janina@freestandards.org		http://a11y.org

If Linux can't solve your computing problem, you need a different problem.

Re: getting off my windows dependency

[Janina Sajka]

OK. This makes some sense, but I suspect we agree it can be a nuisance
for adapted browsing.

After reading your description--and thinking about your strategy for
handling "tab browsing," I think I still prefer the way this works on
the cat, meaning the cat's backspace key feature.

Kenny Hitt writes:
> Hi.
> 
> Tab browsing is a feature found in Mozilla as well as elinks.  The idea
> is you have several pages open in a single browser session and you
> switch between them by switching tabs.  Consider a javascript that pops
> up a new window.  If it does it in a new tab, you can get back to the
> actual site easily in the text console.
> BTW, Mozilla actually opens a new Window instead of a tab which
> can make browsing some sites a real pain.  Since the new
> windows are not accessible most of the time you are forced to alt-tab
> until you find the origional window displayint the site.
> Due to Mozilla's limited accessibility, I've found it a bad idea to
> close these windows.  It gets frustrating when you end up closing what
> you think is the add only to find you closed the window displaying the
> actual site.  With tabs, the "windows" are kept in the browser instead
> of becoming another task on your window list.
> 
> Hope this helps.
>           Kenny
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Apr 04, 2005 at 10:10:03AM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > Why would browsing by line, word, or char be a browser feature? It seems
> > to me such functionality is the responsibility of the assistive
> > technology, not the browser.
> > 
> > Also, when you say "tab browsing," what does that mean? Is there some
> > unique definition of tab browsing in elinks?
> > 
> > 
> > Sergei V. Fleytin writes:
> > > Hello, listers,
> > > 
> > > >>>>> "m" == mikster4  <mikster4@msn.com> writes:
> > > 
> > > m> I was maening more that it is not how the web browser works itself,
> > > m> it is something inserted by the screen reader. Normally you can't
> > > m> cursor around the page in a web browser, only jump between the
> > > m> controls. Maybe it is my mistake, but I thought the person was
> > > m> expecting this behaviour to be in the web browser.
> > > 
> > > I'd like to make some comment concerning this topic. Both links2 and
> > > elinks allow users to navigate within a page like in an editor. Links2
> > > provide what they call "braille terminal" wich, in my opinion is a
> > > very cool and convenient feature. Elinks also can be customize to
> > > behave in similar fashion though it would not be as blind friendly as
> > > braille terminal in links2. But elinks has so many cool features,
> > > including tab browsing, that it really worth our attention. Below is a
> > > fragment from my elinks.conf wich allow to move by characters and
> > > lines within elinks using vi-like keybindings.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > bind "main" "k" = "move-cursor-up"
> > > bind "main" "l" = "move-cursor-right"
> > > bind "main" "h" = "move-cursor-left"
> > > bind "main" "j" = "move-cursor-down"
> > > 
> > > set ui.show_status_bar = 0
> > > 
> > > I hope it would be useful for someone.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > With best regards, Sergei.
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> > -- 
> > 
> > Janina Sajka				Phone: +1.202.494.7040
> > Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC	http://www.CapitalAccessibility.Com
> > 
> > Chair, Accessibility Workgroup		Free Standards Group (FSG)
> > janina@freestandards.org		http://a11y.org
> > 
> > If Linux can't solve your computing problem, you need a different problem.
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 

Janina Sajka				Phone: +1.202.494.7040
Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC	http://www.CapitalAccessibility.Com

Chair, Accessibility Workgroup		Free Standards Group (FSG)
janina@freestandards.org		http://a11y.org

If Linux can't solve your computing problem, you need a different problem.

RE: Re[2]: getting off my windows dependency

[jim grimsby]

well, look at it this way. with window eyes and jaws they put each link
on one line each. with supernova it doesn't do that. see, it differs
even in windows. with lynx and elynx you look at it from a sorta sighted
perspective, with out the websites beeing all processed.
Note according to the w3c links should be on there own line! So the
screen reader forcing it to be so is just forcing it to look like the
w3c says it should look.  I personally like this feature quite well in
windows and would be happy to see it echoed here in lynx.  
 on 4/4/2005 janina@rednote.netJanina Sajka said Why would browsing by
line, word, or char be a browser feature? It seems to me such
functionality is the responsibility of the assistive technology, not the
browser.

Also, when you say "tab browsing," what does that mean? Is there some
unique definition of tab browsing in elinks?


Sergei V. Fleytin writes:
> Hello, listers,
> 
> >>>>> "m" == mikster4  <mikster4@msn.com> writes:
> 
> m> I was maening more that it is not how the web browser works itself,

> m> it is something inserted by the screen reader. Normally you can't 
> m> cursor around the page in a web browser, only jump between the 
> m> controls. Maybe it is my mistake, but I thought the person was 
> m> expecting this behaviour to be in the web browser.
> 
> I'd like to make some comment concerning this topic. Both links2 and 
> elinks allow users to navigate within a page like in an editor. Links2

> provide what they call "braille terminal" wich, in my opinion is a 
> very cool and convenient feature. Elinks also can be customize to 
> behave in similar fashion though it would not be as blind friendly as 
> braille terminal in links2. But elinks has so many cool features, 
> including tab browsing, that it really worth our attention. Below is a

> fragment from my elinks.conf wich allow to move by characters and 
> lines within elinks using vi-like keybindings.
> 
> 
> bind "main" "k" = "move-cursor-up"
> bind "main" "l" = "move-cursor-right"
> bind "main" "h" = "move-cursor-left"
> bind "main" "j" = "move-cursor-down"
> 
> set ui.show_status_bar = 0
> 
> I hope it would be useful for someone.
> 
> 
> --
> With best regards, Sergei.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca 
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 

Janina Sajka				Phone: +1.202.494.7040
Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC
http://www.CapitalAccessibility.Com

Chair, Accessibility Workgroup		Free Standards Group (FSG)
janina@freestandards.org		http://a11y.org

If Linux can't solve your computing problem, you need a different
problem.


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: getting off my windows dependency

[Kenny Hitt]

Hi.

On Mon, Apr 04, 2005 at 11:26:35AM -0700, jim grimsby wrote:
> 
> Now all we need is a conf file with everything all setup this way so all
> we have to do is put the file in place.  Maybe put it on the speakup
> sight.  Also configuration files for mutt and other programs to make it
> more speakup user friendly.  In this way when a new user comes along we
> can direct them to these files and say here you go.  
> Also remember that a lot of users such as my self come from windows and
> are used to these features in there web browsing it does not matter to
> the average user what is making it work as long as it does.  
> Hth 
> 

When will you have the files ready?  The only way things usually get
done in Linux is when someone does them.  Since you consider such files
important, you are the best one to create and maintain them.

Hope this helps.
          Kenny

Re: getting off my windows dependency

[Kenny Hitt]

Hi.


On Mon, Apr 04, 2005 at 02:37:58PM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> OK. This makes some sense, but I suspect we agree it can be a nuisance
> for adapted browsing.
> 
> After reading your description--and thinking about your strategy for
> handling "tab browsing," I think I still prefer the way this works on
> the cat, meaning the cat's backspace key feature.
> 

That option isn't available since the javascript opens a new browser
window.  You have a new browser session, so there isn't a previous page
to go back to.  At this point, the cat just won't do anything with sites
like this.  Unfortunately, the cat just hasn't kept up with the latest
web technology.  I've personally stopped using it except in a few
scripts that I haven't updated yet.

Hope this helps.
          Kenny
	  

RE: getting off my windows dependency

[jim grimsby]

I'm afraid I don't understand your answer.

You're saying that the Windows screen readers handle browsers
differently. That part I understand. But, I wasn't asking about that.
This is correct. 
I do think I do understand that you have a preference for output that is
rendered the same way as it would be without a screen reader. Well and
good. That may, or may not, be a valuable thing, depending on personal
choice, I expect.
This is also a good point. 
But, haven't you configured your browser to provide you navigation in
the rendered content? I'm unaware that sighted users would have such a
requirement. I would rather expect they woudln't.
There are plug-ins that provide just this type of functionality for
internet explorer they are for sighted users that wish to use the
keyboard for selecting text.   Also a number of sighted people I have
spoken with say that making the link stand out on a line on its own is
helpful.  I took a web design class a few years ago and was told to
always put the link by it self on its own line and to draw attention to
it.  To make it catchy to the eye was the way he frazed it.  He also
said it was a good idea to write a simple web page with as few graphics
as possible for though users who were still using dialup modems.  He
also said to avoid the naming of links like click here.  He said it was
a good idea to include the hole title of the link for example click here
to return to the home page not click here 
To return to the home page with click here being the name of the link.  
And, that takes me back to my first question: Isn't reviewing content
line by line, or word by word, or char by char, our requirement for
assistive technology, and not the browser? Seems to me it belongs with
AT, not browsers.
What does it matter.  Either way whether it is built in to the browser
or the screen reader as long as you have the feature.  Your point is
basically is it is not the function of the program you are using but the
function of the screen reader to provide a access technology feature.
My point is that as long as the feature is provided it really does not
matter who is doing the providing.  Remember the more programmers who at
`key are needs in to account the more accessible the said programs will
be.  Not sure if you were ever a dos user but there were a lot of
programs that did things to try to help provide more access.  Silver
express mail reader had a speech friendly mode witch provided
information to the bios witch was not written to the screen thus making
messages more readable.  In fact in this case it provided to much out
put at some times. Telix had a hole section in its documentation on how
to set it up to work well with screen readers.  Como as we all remember
had features like this as well.  Bleu wave had a speech out put feature.
Windows programs have continued this real player for windows has
sections on how to make it work best with screen readers.  The on line
bible has a section on making it work and a speech friendly mode.
Acrobat reader has speech built in that will read the document to you.
Note lots of sighted people I know use this features.  Your point would
be that all this should be the function of the screen reader.  But why.
If programs that are main streem start putting these things in to the
core of the code then that makes less work for the creators of the
screen reader.  I am sure kerk  would appreciate that.  My issue is when
we have to use some program that is not off the shelf or main streem to
get a job done.  I have no objection when a programmer has done some
thing to make it easier to access said program.  My issue is also when a
programmer ads features to make the program more accessible and in fact
makes it harder to use.  Lets take the silver express example.  Silver
express had a feature called the talking cursor.  This was well and
good.  So you turn off the cursor for the screen reader and use the
talking cursor.  The problem was that the talking cursor did not work in
the editor.  So you had to enable your cursor again.  If you are going
to add a feature of this nature it needs to work across  the board.
Then you have people who write programs and tell you to turn off such
and such feature to gain access to it.  An example of this is goldwave
for windows.  They tell you to turn off the menu graphics if you do not
your screen reader will not be able to read the menus.  This is not true
I have tried it with jaws window bridge and window eyes the menus read
fine whether or not this feature is on or off.  I get question on a
regular basis for I wrote the gold wave scripts for jaws how do I turn
off these menus so jaws will work with gold wave.  The answer is of
course not to bother.  So if people want to help that is wonderful.  But
lets make sure the features they add really help.  For example the lynx
feature really would help but the gold wave document about turning off
graphics in menus does not.  
Hth 

RE: getting off my windows dependency

[jim grimsby]

OK. This makes some sense, but I suspect we agree it can be a nuisance
for adapted browsing.
Why it is just like a tab control basically it allows you to move back
and forth between to web pages.  For example lets say you have a mutt
document on the one had and your isp settings on the other hand.  You
open them up in to tabs and review the mutt documentation to find out
how to configure mutt and when you get to the info you want you then
switch over to your isp settings page get the info you need there  and
you then use both pages to create your configuration file.  
After reading your description--a

RE: getting off my windows dependency

[jim grimsby]

> 
> Now all we need is a conf file with everything all setup this way so 
> all we have to do is put the file in place.  Maybe put it on the 
> speakup sight.  Also configuration files for mutt and other programs 
> to make it more speakup user friendly.  In this way when a new user 
> comes along we can direct them to these files and say here you go.
> Also remember that a lot of users such as my self come from windows
and
> are used to these features in there web browsing it does not matter to
> the average user what is making it work as long as it does.  
> Hth 
> 

When will you have the files ready?  The only way things usually get
done in Linux is when someone does them.  Since you consider such files
important, you are the best one to create and maintain them.
Ok so does any one else think they are important?
If so I would be happy to do it.  Not sure I am the best person for the
job write now as I my self am getting my feet wet as it were in this
operating system.  I see it as an important job because of the fact as I
get clients who want a linux based computer built it would be a lot
easier to put the files in place for each instead of have to reinvent
the will.  

Re: Re[2]: getting off my windows dependency

[Sean McMahon]

The w3c says you have to put each link on a seperate line?  As someone who
writes some web content how is that possable?  Mind pointing out where it says
such a thing?
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "jim grimsby" <jimgrims@pacbell.net>
To: "'Farhan'" <i.am.Farhan@gmail.com>; "'Speakup is a screen review system for
Linux.'" <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 11:38 AM
Subject: RE: Re[2]: getting off my windows dependency




well, look at it this way. with window eyes and jaws they put each link
on one line each. with supernova it doesn't do that. see, it differs
even in windows. with lynx and elynx you look at it from a sorta sighted
perspective, with out the websites beeing all processed.
Note according to the w3c links should be on there own line! So the
screen reader forcing it to be so is just forcing it to look like the
w3c says it should look.  I personally like this feature quite well in
windows and would be happy to see it echoed here in lynx.
 on 4/4/2005 janina@rednote.netJanina Sajka said Why would browsing by
line, word, or char be a browser feature? It seems to me such
functionality is the responsibility of the assistive technology, not the
browser.

Also, when you say "tab browsing," what does that mean? Is there some
unique definition of tab browsing in elinks?


Sergei V. Fleytin writes:
> Hello, listers,
>
> >>>>> "m" == mikster4  <mikster4@msn.com> writes:
>
> m> I was maening more that it is not how the web browser works itself,

> m> it is something inserted by the screen reader. Normally you can't
> m> cursor around the page in a web browser, only jump between the
> m> controls. Maybe it is my mistake, but I thought the person was
> m> expecting this behaviour to be in the web browser.
>
> I'd like to make some comment concerning this topic. Both links2 and
> elinks allow users to navigate within a page like in an editor. Links2

> provide what they call "braille terminal" wich, in my opinion is a
> very cool and convenient feature. Elinks also can be customize to
> behave in similar fashion though it would not be as blind friendly as
> braille terminal in links2. But elinks has so many cool features,
> including tab browsing, that it really worth our attention. Below is a

> fragment from my elinks.conf wich allow to move by characters and
> lines within elinks using vi-like keybindings.
>
>
> bind "main" "k" = "move-cursor-up"
> bind "main" "l" = "move-cursor-right"
> bind "main" "h" = "move-cursor-left"
> bind "main" "j" = "move-cursor-down"
>
> set ui.show_status_bar = 0
>
> I hope it would be useful for someone.
>
>
> --
> With best regards, Sergei.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 

Janina Sajka Phone: +1.202.494.7040
Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC
http://www.CapitalAccessibility.Com

Chair, Accessibility Workgroup Free Standards Group (FSG)
janina@freestandards.org http://a11y.org

If Linux can't solve your computing problem, you need a different
problem.


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup



_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: getting off my windows dependency

[Sean McMahon]

Or you could just open up a new console and work in two consoles at the same
time.  If that doesn't work, you use ctrl+z to suspend and bg to place one
process in the background.  I don't understand this tabbed browsing either.
Seems like a graphical thing, so how do you work this in the console.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "jim grimsby" <jimgrims@pacbell.net>
To: "'Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.'" <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 12:13 PM
Subject: RE: getting off my windows dependency


>
>
> OK. This makes some sense, but I suspect we agree it can be a nuisance
> for adapted browsing.
> Why it is just like a tab control basically it allows you to move back
> and forth between to web pages.  For example lets say you have a mutt
> document on the one had and your isp settings on the other hand.  You
> open them up in to tabs and review the mutt documentation to find out
> how to configure mutt and when you get to the info you want you then
> switch over to your isp settings page get the info you need there  and
> you then use both pages to create your configuration file.
> After reading your description--a
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

RE: Re[2]: getting off my windows dependency

[jim grimsby]

Well this is according to my teacher but he said that is the way it
should be and he told us to use paragraph markers. Hth 

-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca
[mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca] On Behalf Of Sean McMahon
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 1:03 PM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: Re[2]: getting off my windows dependency


The w3c says you have to put each link on a seperate line?  As someone
who writes some web content how is that possable?  Mind pointing out
where it says such a thing?
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "jim grimsby" <jimgrims@pacbell.net>
To: "'Farhan'" <i.am.Farhan@gmail.com>; "'Speakup is a screen review
system for Linux.'" <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 11:38 AM
Subject: RE: Re[2]: getting off my windows dependency




well, look at it this way. with window eyes and jaws they put each link
on one line each. with supernova it doesn't do that. see, it differs
even in windows. with lynx and elynx you look at it from a sorta sighted
perspective, with out the websites beeing all processed. Note according
to the w3c links should be on there own line! So the screen reader
forcing it to be so is just forcing it to look like the w3c says it
should look.  I personally like this feature quite well in windows and
would be happy to see it echoed here in lynx.  on 4/4/2005
janina@rednote.netJanina Sajka said Why would browsing by line, word, or
char be a browser feature? It seems to me such functionality is the
responsibility of the assistive technology, not the browser.

Also, when you say "tab browsing," what does that mean? Is there some
unique definition of tab browsing in elinks?


Sergei V. Fleytin writes:
> Hello, listers,
>
> >>>>> "m" == mikster4  <mikster4@msn.com> writes:
>
> m> I was maening more that it is not how the web browser works itself,

> m> it is something inserted by the screen reader. Normally you can't 
> m> cursor around the page in a web browser, only jump between the 
> m> controls. Maybe it is my mistake, but I thought the person was 
> m> expecting this behaviour to be in the web browser.
>
> I'd like to make some comment concerning this topic. Both links2 and 
> elinks allow users to navigate within a page like in an editor. Links2

> provide what they call "braille terminal" wich, in my opinion is a 
> very cool and convenient feature. Elinks also can be customize to 
> behave in similar fashion though it would not be as blind friendly as 
> braille terminal in links2. But elinks has so many cool features, 
> including tab browsing, that it really worth our attention. Below is a

> fragment from my elinks.conf wich allow to move by characters and 
> lines within elinks using vi-like keybindings.
>
>
> bind "main" "k" = "move-cursor-up"
> bind "main" "l" = "move-cursor-right"
> bind "main" "h" = "move-cursor-left"
> bind "main" "j" = "move-cursor-down"
>
> set ui.show_status_bar = 0
>
> I hope it would be useful for someone.
>
>
> --
> With best regards, Sergei.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca 
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 

Janina Sajka Phone: +1.202.494.7040
Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC http://www.CapitalAccessibility.Com

Chair, Accessibility Workgroup Free Standards Group (FSG)
janina@freestandards.org http://a11y.org

If Linux can't solve your computing problem, you need a different
problem.


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup



_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: getting off my windows dependency

[Sean McMahon]

The blind programming site has some configuration files for lynx the cat for
example.  Yes such files would be important.  The beauty of linux is there is
assentially no company, no support, no boss, no marketing team to go through.
You are the community, the user, the developer, the tech support.  While
solisiting opinions may be a good idea, getting a no vote from someone ain't
gunna keep you from doing what you feel is important work.  If we're going to do
this,  I don't want to see, the one or only choice for a conf file, I'd like to
see many alternatives.  The growth of linux depends on the learning curve as
much as ease of use because it is so powerfull.  I wouldn't users to come away
from a site with posted conf files feeling like they now have everything
perfect, but more like they've been given some pointers and they must now rtfm
for a bit.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "jim grimsby" <jimgrims@pacbell.net>
To: "'Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.'" <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 12:17 PM
Subject: RE: getting off my windows dependency


>
> Now all we need is a conf file with everything all setup this way so
> all we have to do is put the file in place.  Maybe put it on the
> speakup sight.  Also configuration files for mutt and other programs
> to make it more speakup user friendly.  In this way when a new user
> comes along we can direct them to these files and say here you go.
> Also remember that a lot of users such as my self come from windows
and
> are used to these features in there web browsing it does not matter to
> the average user what is making it work as long as it does.
> Hth
>

When will you have the files ready?  The only way things usually get
done in Linux is when someone does them.  Since you consider such files
important, you are the best one to create and maintain them.
Ok so does any one else think they are important?
If so I would be happy to do it.  Not sure I am the best person for the
job write now as I my self am getting my feet wet as it were in this
operating system.  I see it as an important job because of the fact as I
get clients who want a linux based computer built it would be a lot
easier to put the files in place for each instead of have to reinvent
the will.



_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: getting off my windows dependency

[Steve Holmes]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: RIPEMD160

I have several comments on this interesting thread.

Conf files are helpful but many of these will reflect personal
preferences.  I've looked often at some conf files that have been
shared over time and I'll find parts that look interesting and helpful
but other parts I would totally disagree with so I usually end up
rolling my own.  Yes, I'm experienced now so perhaps would sing a
different tune if I was new to this stuff.

Somebody mentioned tab controls or tab navigation.  I use both linux
and windows and I don't mind tab controls at all.  The latest Firefox
for windows allows the opening of links in tabs and you can use
ctrl-page up and down to cycle through the tabs or I think there's a
way to open the list like a standard windows tab control.  These tabs
are definitely far better than opening separate instances of the
program or separate processes.  Someone mentioned separate consoles or
subprocesses or inferiror shells to run other tasks.  That is hardly
a way to deal with the exploding of web documents.  Screen is an
interesting way to have "multiple windows" but still, I don't think
web browsing could be accommodated this way.  Hmmm, interesting idea
if a text browser could some how open up another screen window for
links when a tab browsing session is desired.

Actually, it comes to mind that w3 for Emacs might enable web browsing
where one could simply scroll down tthrough the page since you're in
an emacs buffer.  This would surely work with emacspeak anyhow; but
that's another subject:).

- -- 
HolmesGrown Solutions
The best solutions for the best price!
http://ld.net/?holmesgrown
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Re: getting off my windows dependency

[nick G]

Just wondering where'd "Lynx the cat" come from?  How'd someone come up with 
that, of all things?
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@rednote.net>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 2:37 PM
Subject: Re: getting off my windows dependency


OK. This makes some sense, but I suspect we agree it can be a nuisance
for adapted browsing.

After reading your description--and thinking about your strategy for
handling "tab browsing," I think I still prefer the way this works on
the cat, meaning the cat's backspace key feature.

Kenny Hitt writes:
> Hi.
>
> Tab browsing is a feature found in Mozilla as well as elinks.  The idea
> is you have several pages open in a single browser session and you
> switch between them by switching tabs.  Consider a javascript that pops
> up a new window.  If it does it in a new tab, you can get back to the
> actual site easily in the text console.
> BTW, Mozilla actually opens a new Window instead of a tab which
> can make browsing some sites a real pain.  Since the new
> windows are not accessible most of the time you are forced to alt-tab
> until you find the origional window displayint the site.
> Due to Mozilla's limited accessibility, I've found it a bad idea to
> close these windows.  It gets frustrating when you end up closing what
> you think is the add only to find you closed the window displaying the
> actual site.  With tabs, the "windows" are kept in the browser instead
> of becoming another task on your window list.
>
> Hope this helps.
>           Kenny
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 04, 2005 at 10:10:03AM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > Why would browsing by line, word, or char be a browser feature? It seems
> > to me such functionality is the responsibility of the assistive
> > technology, not the browser.
> >
> > Also, when you say "tab browsing," what does that mean? Is there some
> > unique definition of tab browsing in elinks?
> >
> >
> > Sergei V. Fleytin writes:
> > > Hello, listers,
> > >
> > > >>>>> "m" == mikster4  <mikster4@msn.com> writes:
> > >
> > > m> I was maening more that it is not how the web browser works itself,
> > > m> it is something inserted by the screen reader. Normally you can't
> > > m> cursor around the page in a web browser, only jump between the
> > > m> controls. Maybe it is my mistake, but I thought the person was
> > > m> expecting this behaviour to be in the web browser.
> > >
> > > I'd like to make some comment concerning this topic. Both links2 and
> > > elinks allow users to navigate within a page like in an editor. Links2
> > > provide what they call "braille terminal" wich, in my opinion is a
> > > very cool and convenient feature. Elinks also can be customize to
> > > behave in similar fashion though it would not be as blind friendly as
> > > braille terminal in links2. But elinks has so many cool features,
> > > including tab browsing, that it really worth our attention. Below is a
> > > fragment from my elinks.conf wich allow to move by characters and
> > > lines within elinks using vi-like keybindings.
> > >
> > >
> > > bind "main" "k" = "move-cursor-up"
> > > bind "main" "l" = "move-cursor-right"
> > > bind "main" "h" = "move-cursor-left"
> > > bind "main" "j" = "move-cursor-down"
> > >
> > > set ui.show_status_bar = 0
> > >
> > > I hope it would be useful for someone.
> > >
> > >
> > > -- 
> > > With best regards, Sergei.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> > -- 
> >
> > Janina Sajka Phone: +1.202.494.7040
> > Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC http://www.CapitalAccessibility.Com
> >
> > Chair, Accessibility Workgroup Free Standards Group (FSG)
> > janina@freestandards.org http://a11y.org
> >
> > If Linux can't solve your computing problem, you need a different 
> > problem.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 

Janina Sajka Phone: +1.202.494.7040
Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC http://www.CapitalAccessibility.Com

Chair, Accessibility Workgroup Free Standards Group (FSG)
janina@freestandards.org http://a11y.org

If Linux can't solve your computing problem, you need a different problem.


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

RE: getting off my windows dependency

[jim grimsby]

Conf files are helpful but many of these will reflect personal
preferences.  I've looked often at some conf files that have been shared
over time and I'll find parts that look interesting and helpful but
other parts I would totally disagree with so I usually end up rolling my
own.  Yes, I'm experienced now so perhaps would sing a different tune if
I was new to this stuff.
The idea was to get the user started.  The idea is not to say this is
the only way but this is a method to get you started.   So let say that
in lynx show_cursor was turned on number links and forms and the braile
terminal mode was enabled. One configuration and then lets say we have
another just wish show_cursor turned on.  This way instead of having
from the get go go in and configure it they would have a base line
starting point.  What yall think.  
Somebody mentioned tab controls or tab navigation.  I use both linux and
windows and I don't mind tab controls at all.  The latest Firefox for
windows allows the opening of links in tabs and you can use ctrl-page up
and down to cycle through the tabs or I think there's a way to open the
list like a standard windows tab control.  These tabs are definitely far
better than opening separate instances of the program or separate
processes.  Someone mentioned separate consoles or subprocesses or
inferiror shells to run other tasks.  That is hardly a way to deal with
the exploding of web documents.  Screen is an interesting way to have
"multiple windows" but still, I don't think web browsing could be
accommodated this way.  Hmmm, interesting idea if a text browser could
some how open up another screen window for links when a tab browsing
session is desired.

Actually, it comes to mind that w3 for Emacs might enable web browsing
where one could simply scroll down tthrough the page since you're in an
emacs buffer.  This would surely work with emacspeak anyhow; but that's
another subject:).

- -- 
HolmesGrown Solutions
The best solutions for the best price! http://ld.net/?holmesgrown
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=5q/f
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: getting off my windows dependency

[Chuck Hallenbeck]

Hi,

On Mon, 4 Apr 2005, nick G wrote:

> Just wondering where'd "Lynx the cat" come from?  How'd someone come up with
> that, of all things?
Lynx was written by a bunch of guys at the University of Kansas as an
alternative to Archie and Gopher which were popular at the time. There
was a DOS version written before too long, called "Bobcat", which the
dictionary defines as a "small North American lynx". Folks on this list
began calling it "Lynx the Cat" as opposed to "Links the Chain" because
Lynx and Links sound alike when a speech synthesizer gets its hands on
them! I believe Anne Parsons offered that distinction.

Chuck



-- 
The Moon is Waning Crescent (19% of Full)
"Things are in the saddle, and they ride mankind." Ralph Waldo Emerson
Visit my download site at http://www.mhcable.com/~chuckh

Re: getting off my windows dependency

[Sean McMahon]

First of all the braille terminal is specific to links the chain not lynx the
cat.  But in principal maybe a good idea.  One configuration file could also be
setup so that all options are expanded while another could be setup where the
user would see the view of the dropdown box as you would in windows, one box.
If you're going to do this be sure to get the right file.  there's both a .cfg
file and a .lynxrc file for the cat and I assume a .linksrc file for the chain.
Initally it'll be on your website so do with what you will.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "jim grimsby" <jimgrims@pacbell.net>
To: "'Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.'" <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 3:31 PM
Subject: RE: getting off my windows dependency



Conf files are helpful but many of these will reflect personal
preferences.  I've looked often at some conf files that have been shared
over time and I'll find parts that look interesting and helpful but
other parts I would totally disagree with so I usually end up rolling my
own.  Yes, I'm experienced now so perhaps would sing a different tune if
I was new to this stuff.
The idea was to get the user started.  The idea is not to say this is
the only way but this is a method to get you started.   So let say that
in lynx show_cursor was turned on number links and forms and the braile
terminal mode was enabled. One configuration and then lets say we have
another just wish show_cursor turned on.  This way instead of having
from the get go go in and configure it they would have a base line
starting point.  What yall think.
Somebody mentioned tab controls or tab navigation.  I use both linux and
windows and I don't mind tab controls at all.  The latest Firefox for
windows allows the opening of links in tabs and you can use ctrl-page up
and down to cycle through the tabs or I think there's a way to open the
list like a standard windows tab control.  These tabs are definitely far
better than opening separate instances of the program or separate
processes.  Someone mentioned separate consoles or subprocesses or
inferiror shells to run other tasks.  That is hardly a way to deal with
the exploding of web documents.  Screen is an interesting way to have
"multiple windows" but still, I don't think web browsing could be
accommodated this way.  Hmmm, interesting idea if a text browser could
some how open up another screen window for links when a tab browsing
session is desired.

Actually, it comes to mind that w3 for Emacs might enable web browsing
where one could simply scroll down tthrough the page since you're in an
emacs buffer.  This would surely work with emacspeak anyhow; but that's
another subject:).

- -- 
HolmesGrown Solutions
The best solutions for the best price! http://ld.net/?holmesgrown
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Re: getting off my windows dependency

[Janina Sajka]

jim grimsby writes:
> 
> But, haven't you configured your browser to provide you navigation in
> the rendered content? I'm unaware that sighted users would have such a
> requirement. I would rather expect they woudln't.
> There are plug-ins that provide just this type of functionality for
> internet explorer they are for sighted users that wish to use the
> keyboard for selecting text.

Really? You have to get a special plugin to use the keyboard to select
text in Win? My, but it's behind the times.
Amazing anyone bothers with it.

>  Also a number of sighted people I have
> spoken with say that making the link stand out on a line on its own is
> helpful.
Wait a minute here. Are we talking about navigating from link to link?
Or are we talking about accessing whatever text may appear around and
among the links?

I thought you were speaking of the latter, not the former.
Clearly, it's a browser function to provide navigability from link to
link. That's not what I was talking about.

Is this an issue of imprecise words being thrown around? Or just of
tossing unrelated bits into a different topic discussion?

  I took a web design class a few years ago and was told to
> always put the link by it self on its own line and to draw attention to
> it.  To make it catchy to the eye was the way he frazed it.  He also
> said it was a good idea to write a simple web page with as few graphics
> as possible for though users who were still using dialup modems.  He
> also said to avoid the naming of links like click here.  He said it was
> a good idea to include the hole title of the link for example click here
> to return to the home page not click here 
> To return to the home page with click here being the name of the link.  

All good advice, but this is link navigation, not web page content
navigation. Apples and oranges, I believe. OK, they're both fruit, but
they're not the same fruit.

> And, that takes me back to my first question: Isn't reviewing content
> line by line, or word by word, or char by char, our requirement for
> assistive technology, and not the browser? Seems to me it belongs with
> AT, not browsers.
> What does it matter.  Either way whether it is built in to the browser
> or the screen reader as long as you have the feature.  Your point is
> basically is it is not the function of the program you are using but the
> function of the screen reader to provide a access technology feature.
> My point is that as long as the feature is provided it really does not
> matter who is doing the providing.  Remember the more programmers who at
> `key are needs in to account the more accessible the said programs will
> be.

I actually do think it matters. For one thing, I'd like to see clashes
avoided.For another, our needs are not the only accessibility needs that
require support.

So, I think a clear understanding of where responsibility for various
functional features rests is a smarter strategy far more likely to get
more accessibility into more applications then the occasional tidbit of
support in some random application.

My goal is accessibility support directly provided by the toolkits that
developers use to create applications.

Besides, there really is expertise involved in developing good screen
reading software, or good sip and puff interface software, etc.

Re: getting off my windows dependency

[Janina Sajka]

Hi, Sergei:

Oh, I certainly agree that programmers should keep our needs in mind.
Unfortunately, they need also to keep in mind the needs of people who do
not hear, the people with no hands, the people who tend to flip chars in
words, etc., etc., etc. There are many many kinds of disability, and
accessibility is about all of these, not just blind braille users, or
blind speech users, or low vision people, etc., etc.

That's why it's important to develop clear ideas of responsibility, and
to make sure that accessibility support is both thorough and
sufficiently generic.

Sergei V. Fleytin writes:
> Hello, Janina,
> 
> >>>>> "JS" == Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net> writes:
> 
> JS> Why would browsing by line, word, or char be a browser feature? It
> JS> seems to me such functionality is the responsibility of the
> JS> assistive technology, not the browser.
> 
> 
> Janina, I agree with you in general, but in my opinion it is not a
> very bad things when developers have our needs in mind. Those of us
> who used DOS operating system in the past should remember how many DOS
> applications included support for blind users and therefore made our
> life easeire even when some of us used screen reader with very poor
> functionality. Therefore I am very pleased that some of the linux
> developers follow such a good practise. 
> 
> -- 
> With best regards, Sergei.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 

Janina Sajka				Phone: +1.202.494.7040
Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC	http://www.CapitalAccessibility.Com

Chair, Accessibility Workgroup		Free Standards Group (FSG)
janina@freestandards.org		http://a11y.org

If Linux can't solve your computing problem, you need a different problem.

Re: getting off my windows dependency

[Kenny Hitt]

Hi.

On Mon, Apr 04, 2005 at 05:36:43PM -0400, nick G wrote:
> Just wondering where'd "Lynx the cat" come from?  How'd someone come up with 
> that, of all things?

I first heard Ann Parsons use it on the reflector.  Since l y n x is
spelled the same as a type of cat, and L i n k s is part of a chain, it
makes since.  You might have noticed they sound the same, but behave
verry differently.

Hope this helps.
          Kenny
	  

Re: getting off my windows dependency

[Janina Sajka]

jim grimsby writes:
> 
> 
> OK. This makes some sense, but I suspect we agree it can be a nuisance
> for adapted browsing.
> Why it is just like a tab control basically it allows you to move back
> and forth between to web pages.  For example lets say you have a mutt
> document on the one had and your isp settings on the other hand. 

It's a nuisance if an application decides, on its own logic, to force
you into multiple screens/instances. It's a feature if the user wants
and asks for it.

That's the difference. It's a question of who is in control.

PS: Mutt configurations are not written in html, so are not "web
documents." Neither, for that matter, are any network settings
configuration files relating to any ISP I know. While these might, or
might not, be managed via an html front end, they are blessedly simple
ASCII files which can be edited any way you choose.

That's the point. Freedom to choose.

Re: getting off my windows dependency

[Janina Sajka]

Steve Holmes writes:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: RIPEMD160
> 
> I have several comments on this interesting thread.
> 
> Conf files are helpful but many of these will reflect personal
> preferences.  I've looked often at some conf files that have been
> shared over time and I'll find parts that look interesting and helpful
> but other parts I would totally disagree with so I usually end up
> rolling my own.  Yes, I'm experienced now so perhaps would sing a
> different tune if I was new to this stuff.


Absolutely. As one who has shared her conf files for quite some time, I
would add that mine are usually in one state or another of development.
There are portions that work just as I want, and others that don't quite
work. Because they are mine and intended for my own use, these different
sections are not necessarily well identified or documented. Yet, I
believe it helpful to share them.

I do suspect, though, that we could find agreement on some basics. For
example, whether one is in pine, mutt, lynx, or links, one needs the
system cursor to be located where the current focus is.

Those of you who have harkened back to the days of DOS might recall this
fundamental criterion. It's no different today on the Linux console. It
does us no good, because of the way speech and braille interfaces work,
to have the system cursor abandoned to the lower right hand corner of
the display screen.

Of course, it does no sighted user any good either to not have an
indication of where the current focus is. They have simply been provided
other, historically familiar mechanisms to indicate this--such as the
so-called "highlight bar."

So, to contribute one such critical switch:

lynx -show_cursor

is essential to the blind user, and should be defined as the default via
~/.lynxrc or a lynx-site.cfg.

Ditto for pine and mutt.

RE: getting off my windows dependency

[jim grimsby]

 Mutt configurations are not written in html, so are not "web
documents." Neither, for that matter, are any network settings
configuration files relating to any ISP I know. While these might, or
might not, be managed via an html front end, they are blessedly simple
ASCII files which can be edited any way you choose.
I never implied that they were.  The documentation for mutt is available
in html and in the example I provided the documentation was being used
for reference as you created said configurations.  If I was unclear on
that point sorry about that.  When ever I set up a new system window
linux what ever I always have the docs right at my finger tips literally
on my alva so I can make sure I am setting everything up right.  I am a
big documentation reader always have been.  
Thanks for the feed back!

RE: getting off my windows dependency

[jim grimsby]

It's a nuisance if an application decides, on its own logic, to force
you into multiple screens/instances. It's a feature if the user wants
and asks for it.
Agreed but this is not an adaptive problem at this point but a usability
problem.  An adaptive problem is a problem that a screen reader can not
handle a usability problem is when a program does not work the way a
user wants it to.  If the program does not provide a choice then yep it
is a usability problem.  Solved very simply.  Use another program if you
do not like the features of the other program.