* Re: Vinux (was: Re: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?)
` Vinux (was: Re: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?) Tony Baechler
@ ` Samuel Thibault
` James & Nash
` Vinux Hermann
` Vinux (was: Re: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?) al Sten-Clanton
` (3 subsequent siblings)
4 siblings, 2 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: Samuel Thibault @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Tony Baechler, le Mon 01 Jun 2009 04:22:06 -0700, a écrit :
> If someone could please explain why Vinux is so much better than a
> mainstream distro and why one should lower their standards to using a
> special distro primarily for the blind,
My understanding is that it's available _now_ with tweaks here and
there, not waiting for distributions to properly fix things like e.g.
orca's reading of root-launched applications. I do too believe that
it's not a viable long-term solution.
Samuel
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread* Re: Vinux (was: Re: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?)
` Samuel Thibault
@ ` James & Nash
` Vinux Tony Baechler
` Vinux Hermann
1 sibling, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread
From: James & Nash @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Also it is a way to get blind people interested in Linux without having to
mess around with various things. Linux still has a reputation for being very
technical and designed primarily for very computer literate people not just
the average home user which I would think the majority of people blind and
otherwise are. That said some distros have made significant steps in making
Linux accessible to a growing range of folks.
Take care
James Lyn Nash and Twinny
----- Original Message -----
From: "Samuel Thibault" <samuel.thibault@ens-lyon.org>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 12:30 PM
Subject: Re: Vinux (was: Re: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?)
Tony Baechler, le Mon 01 Jun 2009 04:22:06 -0700, a écrit :
> If someone could please explain why Vinux is so much better than a
> mainstream distro and why one should lower their standards to using a
> special distro primarily for the blind,
My understanding is that it's available _now_ with tweaks here and
there, not waiting for distributions to properly fix things like e.g.
orca's reading of root-launched applications. I do too believe that
it's not a viable long-term solution.
Samuel
_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread* Re: Vinux
` James & Nash
@ ` Tony Baechler
` Vinux James & Nash
0 siblings, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread
From: Tony Baechler @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Hi,
I must disagree here. Ubuntu already has Orca included on the live CD
and can be accessed either once the CD is booted or from the boot menu
with sighted help. Perhaps you're saying that the general blind
population would rather use a distro targeted to them, but even then I
would be doubtful. You don't see a special version of Windows or DOS
for the blind, even though there are screen readers that can be
installed. I was independently able to boot and use the Ubuntu live CD
and start Orca, although I did read posts here and at various other
places first. My point is that I'm really not sure that most blind
people need or want a specialized distro and Ubuntu still fills the need
for an accessible live CD. This doesn't count grml, which also has
software speech included and can be booted independently. Finally,
although Vinux is gaining in popularity, it still isn't that popular and
is still relatively early in its development.
My great concern about projects such as Oralux and Vinux are that the
mainstream developers, as well as other Linux users, will assume that no
effort should be wasted in making their particular distro accessible
because Vinux is already designed for the blind, so the blind should
just use that. Before the release of Debian Lenny, there was discussion
on the various Debian lists from developers trying to understand why
Speakup should be included as part of the installer. Apparently quite a
few people think that the blind should be relegated to their own special
accessible CD image, leaving the regular CD images completely
inaccessible. As Samuel has pointed out, while a special CD image isn't
all bad because of the overhead of software speech, it adds lots of
extra confusion for the potential blind user who really doesn't know
what to download. I recently had a similar experience with Ubuntu, and
I've been involved with Linux since 2000. It took a long time before I
could find the x86-64 standard Ubuntu CD image. Ubuntu doesn't have a
special accessible image because it isn't necessary. I had no problem
booting it and running Orca manually. I can't imagine how much more
difficult it would be for someone with no Linux knowledge and perhaps
very little technical knowledge generally. Getting back to the original
point, I guess that's where Vinux might be useful, there is no thought
required in trying to figure out what distro to use. However, one
should, in an ideal world, be able to download any CD image of any
distro and have accessibility included with no worries of whether it's a
special distro for the blind or not.
James & Nash wrote:
> Also it is a way to get blind people interested in Linux without
> having to mess around with various things. Linux still has a
> reputation for being very technical and designed primarily for very
> computer literate people not just the average home user which I would
> think the majority of people blind and otherwise are. That said some
> distros have made significant steps in making Linux accessible to a
> growing range of folks.
>
> Take care
> James Lyn Nash and Twinny
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Samuel Thibault"
> <samuel.thibault@ens-lyon.org>
> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 12:30 PM
> Subject: Re: Vinux (was: Re: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?)
>
>
> Tony Baechler, le Mon 01 Jun 2009 04:22:06 -0700, a écrit :
>> If someone could please explain why Vinux is so much better than a
>> mainstream distro and why one should lower their standards to using a
>> special distro primarily for the blind,
>
> My understanding is that it's available _now_ with tweaks here and
> there, not waiting for distributions to properly fix things like e.g.
> orca's reading of root-launched applications. I do too believe that
> it's not a viable long-term solution.
>
> Samuel
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread* Re: Vinux
` Vinux Tony Baechler
@ ` James & Nash
0 siblings, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: James & Nash @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Hi Tony,
Yes, I agree with you. In an ideal world we would be able to download any
distro we wanted and it would be accessible to us - without the need for a
specialized disc image.
Still, Vinux is still a great idea and might promote Linux for the blind
until they feel comfortable setting up in other distros. Hopefully, other
big distros like Debian will one day be able to be installed independently
by the blind.
Take care
James, Lyn, Nash and Twinny
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Baechler" <tony@baechler.net>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 10:00 AM
Subject: Re: Vinux
Hi,
I must disagree here. Ubuntu already has Orca included on the live CD
and can be accessed either once the CD is booted or from the boot menu
with sighted help. Perhaps you're saying that the general blind
population would rather use a distro targeted to them, but even then I
would be doubtful. You don't see a special version of Windows or DOS
for the blind, even though there are screen readers that can be
installed. I was independently able to boot and use the Ubuntu live CD
and start Orca, although I did read posts here and at various other
places first. My point is that I'm really not sure that most blind
people need or want a specialized distro and Ubuntu still fills the need
for an accessible live CD. This doesn't count grml, which also has
software speech included and can be booted independently. Finally,
although Vinux is gaining in popularity, it still isn't that popular and
is still relatively early in its development.
My great concern about projects such as Oralux and Vinux are that the
mainstream developers, as well as other Linux users, will assume that no
effort should be wasted in making their particular distro accessible
because Vinux is already designed for the blind, so the blind should
just use that. Before the release of Debian Lenny, there was discussion
on the various Debian lists from developers trying to understand why
Speakup should be included as part of the installer. Apparently quite a
few people think that the blind should be relegated to their own special
accessible CD image, leaving the regular CD images completely
inaccessible. As Samuel has pointed out, while a special CD image isn't
all bad because of the overhead of software speech, it adds lots of
extra confusion for the potential blind user who really doesn't know
what to download. I recently had a similar experience with Ubuntu, and
I've been involved with Linux since 2000. It took a long time before I
could find the x86-64 standard Ubuntu CD image. Ubuntu doesn't have a
special accessible image because it isn't necessary. I had no problem
booting it and running Orca manually. I can't imagine how much more
difficult it would be for someone with no Linux knowledge and perhaps
very little technical knowledge generally. Getting back to the original
point, I guess that's where Vinux might be useful, there is no thought
required in trying to figure out what distro to use. However, one
should, in an ideal world, be able to download any CD image of any
distro and have accessibility included with no worries of whether it's a
special distro for the blind or not.
James & Nash wrote:
> Also it is a way to get blind people interested in Linux without having to
> mess around with various things. Linux still has a reputation for being
> very technical and designed primarily for very computer literate people
> not just the average home user which I would think the majority of people
> blind and otherwise are. That said some distros have made significant
> steps in making Linux accessible to a growing range of folks.
>
> Take care
> James Lyn Nash and Twinny
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Samuel Thibault"
> <samuel.thibault@ens-lyon.org>
> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 12:30 PM
> Subject: Re: Vinux (was: Re: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?)
>
>
> Tony Baechler, le Mon 01 Jun 2009 04:22:06 -0700, a écrit :
>> If someone could please explain why Vinux is so much better than a
>> mainstream distro and why one should lower their standards to using a
>> special distro primarily for the blind,
>
> My understanding is that it's available _now_ with tweaks here and
> there, not waiting for distributions to properly fix things like e.g.
> orca's reading of root-launched applications. I do too believe that
> it's not a viable long-term solution.
>
> Samuel
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: Vinux
` Samuel Thibault
` James & Nash
@ ` Hermann
` Vinux Tony Baechler
1 sibling, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread
From: Hermann @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
On 01.06.2009 at 13:30:08 Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@ens-lyon.org> wrote:
> Tony Baechler, le Mon 01 Jun 2009 04:22:06 -0700, a écrit :
>> If someone could please explain why Vinux is so much better than a
>> mainstream distro and why one should lower their standards to using a
>> special distro primarily for the blind,
>
> My understanding is that it's available _now_ with tweaks here and
> there, not waiting for distributions to properly fix things like e.g.
> orca's reading of root-launched applications. I do too believe that
> it's not a viable long-term solution.
>
Exactly! Vinux was a reaction to the fact that more and more complains
arrised about Ubuntu, and the maintainer of Vinux does not intend to
create a special System for the blind. That's a big difference to Oralux
or - the latest one in that family - Adriane.
In addition: There are plans to shift Vinux to be based on Lenny.
The difference to an original Debian or GRML - wich btw. I use - is,
that Vinux, like Ubuntu, comes with Orca and other a11y stuff out of the
box.
Under GRML, for example, you have to do a lot of work to set up Gnome,
Orca and all that stuff. GRML comes with a lot of lightweight window
managers of which non is accessible.
I think we should keep all this in mind when going on with taht thread.
Hermann
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread* Re: Vinux
` Vinux Hermann
@ ` Tony Baechler
` Vinux Samuel Thibault
` Vinux Gregory Nowak
0 siblings, 2 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: Tony Baechler @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Hi,
Again, I must disagree. Debian does install basic accessibility with a
standard install. It doesn't install Orca, although it should. It does
install Speakup and I think brltty though. Samuel is working on an
accessibility section of the archive which should help, but Orca should
be included as part of the standard desktop task. Even so, one does get
a bootable system with speech after the install and one can easily
install Orca. Again, Ubuntu includes Orca already, but not Speakup. I
guess in that regard, a distro that includes both out of the box would
be better. I'm not saying that any distro is perfect, and even Debian
has work to do to make it more accessible, but the tools are easily
available and included as part of Debian, while Orca is part of Ubuntu.
I do agree that grml is very difficult to use with X. I got nowhere
when I tried, so I gave up. It is a very good command line CD and does
include software speech, but it should include a way to install the
standard desktop task with Orca as the Debian installer does.
Hermann wrote:
> The difference to an original Debian or GRML - wich btw. I use - is,
> that Vinux, like Ubuntu, comes with Orca and other a11y stuff out of the
> box.
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread* Re: Vinux
` Vinux Tony Baechler
@ ` Samuel Thibault
` Vinux Gregory Nowak
1 sibling, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: Samuel Thibault @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Tony Baechler, le Tue 02 Jun 2009 02:08:44 -0700, a écrit :
> Again, I must disagree. Debian does install basic accessibility with a
> standard install. It doesn't install Orca, although it should.
That was a bug. I asked quite a few times for tests etc. but never got
that bug report before the release. So it got fixed after the release.
Bugs that are not reported are not fixed, that's all.
Samuel
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread* Re: Vinux
` Vinux Tony Baechler
` Vinux Samuel Thibault
@ ` Gregory Nowak
1 sibling, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: Gregory Nowak @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Tue, Jun 02, 2009 at 02:08:44AM -0700, Tony Baechler wrote:
> Debian does install basic accessibility with a
> standard install. It doesn't install Orca, although it should.
I humbly beg to differ here. One of the things I like about debian,
(at least as far as installations of Etch were concerned), is that
doing a basic install, without running tasksel, gave you a system
about 400 Mb in size. Having orca installed as part of a base install
implies also installing x11, and gnome, which would bloat the installed
system significantly, and wouldn't be desirable for those who just
want to install a basic text console machine. Bloat is one of the
things I don't like about Ubuntu's install, and I seem to also recall
reading posts from people on this list who claim that an install of
GRML is also bloated, though I can't speak from experience, since the
last time I tried installing GRML to HD was a few years ago, and
things might have changed since then.
Greg
- --
web site: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org
gpg public key: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org/pubkey.asc
skype: gregn1
(authorization required, add me to your contacts list first)
- --
Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* RE: Vinux (was: Re: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?)
` Vinux (was: Re: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?) Tony Baechler
` Samuel Thibault
@ ` al Sten-Clanton
` John G. Heim
` (2 subsequent siblings)
4 siblings, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: al Sten-Clanton @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 'Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.'
Hi!
I used to call myself a "hard-core integrationist." Although I'd like to
find myself a lable with a somewhat different emphasis, being less
interested in conformity than in promoting equality in the number and
quality of choices, that's still not a bad term for my take on the world.
As a general approach to living in the world, therefore, I regard your
points as very sound.
I presently use a mainstream Linux distro, Fedora. I had to make this
version of it accessible, though, and was only able to do it after I found
the installation guide to a much earlier version. I could upgrade to this
version only because I had a version modified with speakup. I believe it's
correct to call this a specialized spin, and I also take it that the Fedora
gang itself is not about to make speakup available in the standard versions
any time soon, if at all. Is this very different from Vinux, or from Chris
Brannon's Arch Linux CD? Is it--well--less integrated than using GRML,
which I have used, or the latest Debian release? (Vinux is based on or is
a variant of Ubuntu, after all, and may become one of Debian, both utterly
mainstream distros.)
Frankly, I thought it was pretty cool that Vinux gave me speech
automatically when I booted up the CD: I didn't have to wait the right
number of seconds to type just the right thing, but could sit and wait like
my sighted peers. I didn't get as much boot-up info as they'd get, but
that's not Vinux's fault. Maybe this is a quirk of mine, but Vinux also
made it easier to get started with Orca, though I then went back to Fedora
to go further.
Since there seem to be a lot of specialized Linux distros, I doubt at this
point that some made to work better than usual for blind people are
necessarily nitches in second-class cybercitizenship. Regarding
accessibility, I'm sure no better off if a mainstream distro drops it than
if an accessible distro dies. We BrailleNote users know that special tools
can have big problems, but I'd bet that those of the BrailleNote, for
example, would be fewer or more manageable if its software was "free."
That's my penny's worth for now.
Al
-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of Tony Baechler
Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:22 AM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Vinux (was: Re: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?)
Hi,
I'm not trying to pick on this particular post or the person posting it. Is
it just me, or do others here have a real problem with the idea of using a
specialized distro for the blind? Let me explain what I mean. I am a very
happy Debian user, although I've looked at Slackware, Red Hat, Gentoo and
the Ubuntu live CD. All of those are mainstream distributions that happen
to have accessibility support. Is it just my attitude or do others find
using a special distro for the blind demeaning and insultive? Instead of
expecting people to use a blind-friendly distro, why not use an already
accessible distro such as Debian or Ubuntu in the first place? Besides
generally getting a lot better support and a larger user base, there is no
guarantee that a single developer will continue releasing new versions of
the specialist distro in a timely manner. That happens with mainstream
distros already. Also, granted I refuse to use the Vinux CD for the simple
reason that I feel that I shouldn't have to use a specialist distro, but
what does it offer that Ubuntu doesn't already? From what I've read, it has
deleted graphics packages but still comes with the same accessibility
features and packages.
A good example of what I'm talking about is Oralux. It's now abandoned and
apparently used its own packaging system. I was helping someone switch to
grml because Oralux wasn't really working anymore and was abandoned. Why
not just use Debian or grml in the first place? If someone could please
explain why Vinux is so much better than a mainstream distro and why one
should lower their standards to using a special distro primarily for the
blind, I would be very interested. To me, this is like being required to
use sighted help for something that the blind can do independently. Note
that I'm not talking about using a screen reader or software to help the
blind do a task easier, I'm only talking about locking oneself into a
special distro that might not have long term support and is not designed for
the general population.
Georgina Joyce wrote:
> But just having caught up I noticed that no-one seemed to mention vinux.
>
_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread* Re: Vinux (was: Re: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?)
` Vinux (was: Re: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?) Tony Baechler
` Samuel Thibault
` Vinux (was: Re: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?) al Sten-Clanton
@ ` John G. Heim
` Vinux Tony Baechler
` Vinux (was: Re: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?) Georgina Joyce
` William F. Acker WB2FLW +1 303 722 7209
4 siblings, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread
From: John G. Heim @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
The main reason for something like vinux is that a lot of people have a hard
time just getting started with linux. Over on a list for blind sysadmins,
the question comes up just about every time someone mentions live CDs -- is
there one that comes up talking without my having to just the right key at
just the right time.
People are already struggling with linux, they don't want to have to
struggle to get speech started too.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Baechler" <tony@baechler.net>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 6:22 AM
Subject: Vinux (was: Re: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?)
> Hi,
>
> I'm not trying to pick on this particular post or the person posting it.
> Is it just me, or do others here have a real problem with the idea of
> using a specialized distro for the blind? Let me explain what I mean. I
> am a very happy Debian user, although I've looked at Slackware, Red Hat,
> Gentoo and the Ubuntu live CD. All of those are mainstream distributions
> that happen to have accessibility support. Is it just my attitude or do
> others find using a special distro for the blind demeaning and insultive?
> Instead of expecting people to use a blind-friendly distro, why not use an
> already accessible distro such as Debian or Ubuntu in the first place?
> Besides generally getting a lot better support and a larger user base,
> there is no guarantee that a single developer will continue releasing new
> versions of the specialist distro in a timely manner. That happens with
> mainstream distros already. Also, granted I refuse to use the Vinux CD
> for the simple reason that I feel that I shouldn't have to use a
> specialist distro, but what does it offer that Ubuntu doesn't already?
> From what I've read, it has deleted graphics packages but still comes with
> the same accessibility features and packages.
>
> A good example of what I'm talking about is Oralux. It's now abandoned
> and apparently used its own packaging system. I was helping someone
> switch to grml because Oralux wasn't really working anymore and was
> abandoned. Why not just use Debian or grml in the first place? If
> someone could please explain why Vinux is so much better than a mainstream
> distro and why one should lower their standards to using a special distro
> primarily for the blind, I would be very interested. To me, this is like
> being required to use sighted help for something that the blind can do
> independently. Note that I'm not talking about using a screen reader or
> software to help the blind do a task easier, I'm only talking about
> locking oneself into a special distro that might not have long term
> support and is not designed for the general population.
>
> Georgina Joyce wrote:
>> But just having caught up I noticed that no-one seemed to mention vinux.
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread* Re: Vinux
` John G. Heim
@ ` Tony Baechler
` Vinux James & Nash
0 siblings, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread
From: Tony Baechler @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Ah, this I understand. I was unaware that the live CD would come up
talking. That is a valid point and I can see why people would like
that. Oralux was supposed to do the same thing, but it didn't work for
me. Again, that opens up a bunch of other issues, such as what if there
are multiple sound cards? What if Linux doesn't support the driver for
your sound card? The advantage to something like grml is that you have
more flexibility, even though it requires typing the right thing within
the right number of seconds. You can have software speech, hardware
speech if you have a hardware synth, or no speech if you would rather
use ssh, or a combination of the above. I was working on someone else's
machine when for no obvious reason, grml lost software speech. I
couldn't do much without speech, but it wasn't a problem. I just set up
dhcp, started an ssh server and finished from a different machine. Yes,
a new blind user won't know about that, but the point is that you aren't
locked into one method of doing things, even though it does mean
entering boot parameters.
I must say that I really like the way Debian handles this with the
installation. It beeps to let you know that it's booted and doesn't
timeout right away. It also is smart enough to install Speakup
automatically if you use it to do the install.
John G. Heim wrote:
> The main reason for something like vinux is that a lot of people have
> a hard time just getting started with linux. Over on a list for blind
> sysadmins, the question comes up just about every time someone
> mentions live CDs -- is there one that comes up talking without my
> having to just the right key at just the right time.
>
> People are already struggling with linux, they don't want to have to
> struggle to get speech started too.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread* Re: Vinux
` Vinux Tony Baechler
@ ` James & Nash
` Vinux Samuel Thibault
0 siblings, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread
From: James & Nash @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Hi Tony,
So how do you tell Debian that you want to use speakup during the
installation?
Thanks
james lyn Nash and Twinny
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Baechler" <tony@baechler.net>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 10:27 AM
Subject: Re: Vinux
> Ah, this I understand. I was unaware that the live CD would come up
> talking. That is a valid point and I can see why people would like that.
> Oralux was supposed to do the same thing, but it didn't work for me.
> Again, that opens up a bunch of other issues, such as what if there are
> multiple sound cards? What if Linux doesn't support the driver for your
> sound card? The advantage to something like grml is that you have more
> flexibility, even though it requires typing the right thing within the
> right number of seconds. You can have software speech, hardware speech if
> you have a hardware synth, or no speech if you would rather use ssh, or a
> combination of the above. I was working on someone else's machine when
> for no obvious reason, grml lost software speech. I couldn't do much
> without speech, but it wasn't a problem. I just set up dhcp, started an
> ssh server and finished from a different machine. Yes, a new blind user
> won't know about that, but the point is that you aren't locked into one
> method of doing things, even though it does mean entering boot parameters.
>
> I must say that I really like the way Debian handles this with the
> installation. It beeps to let you know that it's booted and doesn't
> timeout right away. It also is smart enough to install Speakup
> automatically if you use it to do the install.
>
> John G. Heim wrote:
>> The main reason for something like vinux is that a lot of people have a
>> hard time just getting started with linux. Over on a list for blind
>> sysadmins, the question comes up just about every time someone mentions
>> live CDs -- is there one that comes up talking without my having to just
>> the right key at just the right time.
>>
>> People are already struggling with linux, they don't want to have to
>> struggle to get speech started too.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread* Re: Vinux
` Vinux James & Nash
@ ` Samuel Thibault
` Vinux James & Nash
` Vinux Terry D. Cudney
0 siblings, 2 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: Samuel Thibault @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
James & Nash, le Tue 02 Jun 2009 11:32:33 +0100, a écrit :
> So how do you tell Debian that you want to use speakup during the
> installation?
By reading the official documentation:
http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/ch05s02.html
Samuel
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread* Re: Vinux
` Vinux Samuel Thibault
@ ` James & Nash
` Vinux Terry D. Cudney
1 sibling, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: James & Nash @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Thanks Samuel
James, Lyn, Nash and Twinny
----- Original Message -----
From: "Samuel Thibault" <samuel.thibault@ens-lyon.org>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 12:29 PM
Subject: Re: Vinux
James & Nash, le Tue 02 Jun 2009 11:32:33 +0100, a écrit :
> So how do you tell Debian that you want to use speakup during the
> installation?
By reading the official documentation:
http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/ch05s02.html
Samuel
_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread* Re: Vinux
` Vinux Samuel Thibault
` Vinux James & Nash
@ ` Terry D. Cudney
1 sibling, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: Terry D. Cudney @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Hi guys,
I want to step in here and say a big "Thank You" to Samuel and all the Debian Installer team.
I have installed Debian using speakup for the installation, without sighted assistance on several machines, from A64's to notebooks.
The installations have all been from CD or USB-stick using a Litetalk or Tripletalk synth for the installation and end up with speakup (with either hardware orespeak (software speech)) and orca access readily available.
I agree that during installation, the timing/entry of parameters is a bit of a trick, and perhaps daunting to a new user, but what os can be installed unaided by a blind user besides this?
The progress over the last year to make blind, unaided installation possible, has been impressive... thanks to people like Samuel it will only get better.
We live in a world where we (the blind) are in the minority, but we don't have to be quarantined into exclusive programs for blind users... that just widens the gap between us and the rest of the world. The better way to go is what is being done with debian... make the installation and use of the system fully accessible without barriers between us and the rest of the world.
Thanks again to all who are working in the effort to make linux accessible... speakup, orca and all the people working on various mainstream distributions!
My $0.02...
--terry
On Tue, Jun 02, 2009 at 01:29:25PM +0200, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> James & Nash, le Tue 02 Jun 2009 11:32:33 +0100, a écrit :
> > So how do you tell Debian that you want to use speakup during the
> > installation?
>
> By reading the official documentation:
>
> http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/ch05s02.html
>
> Samuel
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
--
Name: Terry D. Cudney
Phone: 705-812-4949
SIP: 8978@ekiga.net
E-mail: terry@octothorp.org
Having a smoking section in a restaurant is like...
having a peeing sectionin a swimming pool.
Tired of technology? Check this out: http://www.shibumi.org/eoti.htm
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: Vinux (was: Re: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?)
` Vinux (was: Re: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?) Tony Baechler
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
` John G. Heim
@ ` Georgina Joyce
` William F. Acker WB2FLW +1 303 722 7209
4 siblings, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: Georgina Joyce @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Hi
Linux is about choice and you've had choice. Anything that makes linux
available to more VI people has my vote. For new users to have access
to for screen readers that they can explore is an excellent opportunity
for promoting linux. Just because I struggled in 1998 it doesn't mean
that everyone following has to do so too.
Furthermore, because of vinux. Linux is going to be at Sight Village,
so that people can hav a hands on look at linux. I'm hoping that I can
assist Tony in demonstrating linux.
There's nothing elitist about using linux.
Thanks.
On Mon, 2009-06-01 at 04:22 -0700, Tony Baechler wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm not trying to pick on this particular post or the person posting
> it. Is it just me, or do others here have a real problem with the idea
> of using a specialized distro for the blind? Let me explain what I
> mean. I am a very happy Debian user, although I've looked at Slackware,
> Red Hat, Gentoo and the Ubuntu live CD. All of those are mainstream
> distributions that happen to have accessibility support. Is it just my
> attitude or do others find using a special distro for the blind
> demeaning and insultive? Instead of expecting people to use a
> blind-friendly distro, why not use an already accessible distro such as
> Debian or Ubuntu in the first place? Besides generally getting a lot
> better support and a larger user base, there is no guarantee that a
> single developer will continue releasing new versions of the specialist
> distro in a timely manner. That happens with mainstream distros
> already. Also, granted I refuse to use the Vinux CD for the simple
> reason that I feel that I shouldn't have to use a specialist distro, but
> what does it offer that Ubuntu doesn't already? From what I've read, it
> has deleted graphics packages but still comes with the same
> accessibility features and packages.
>
> A good example of what I'm talking about is Oralux. It's now abandoned
> and apparently used its own packaging system. I was helping someone
> switch to grml because Oralux wasn't really working anymore and was
> abandoned. Why not just use Debian or grml in the first place? If
> someone could please explain why Vinux is so much better than a
> mainstream distro and why one should lower their standards to using a
> special distro primarily for the blind, I would be very interested. To
> me, this is like being required to use sighted help for something that
> the blind can do independently. Note that I'm not talking about using a
> screen reader or software to help the blind do a task easier, I'm only
> talking about locking oneself into a special distro that might not have
> long term support and is not designed for the general population.
>
> Georgina Joyce wrote:
> > But just having caught up I noticed that no-one seemed to mention vinux.
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
--
Gena
M0EBP
http://ready2golinux.com
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread* Re: Vinux (was: Re: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?)
` Vinux (was: Re: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?) Tony Baechler
` (3 preceding siblings ...)
` Vinux (was: Re: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?) Georgina Joyce
@ ` William F. Acker WB2FLW +1 303 722 7209
4 siblings, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: William F. Acker WB2FLW +1 303 722 7209 @ UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
I couldn't agree more! As it happens, I maintain a version of Fedora that
we call "Speakup Modified Fedora". I do this only because, IMPO, Fedora
isn't doing what it should be doing. I rebuild the kernel to include our
favorite screen review system, add espeak, which is in the distro, but,
amazingly, not on the installation media. I also add python-brlapi and
speech-dispatcher, again both in the distro but missing from the disks. I
remove absolutely nothing! Therefore, SMF can be handed out at LUG
meetings in the knowledge that any user can install it and use whatever
features, whether in the original Fedora, or added in SMF. Another
advantage to using SMF is that every time The Fedora Project updates any
package, no matter how small, SMF is re spun with the updated packages.
--
Bill in Denver
On Mon, 1 Jun 2009, Tony Baechler wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm not trying to pick on this particular post or the person posting it. Is
> it just me, or do others here have a real problem with the idea of using a
> specialized distro for the blind? Let me explain what I mean. I am a very
> happy Debian user, although I've looked at Slackware, Red Hat, Gentoo and the
> Ubuntu live CD. All of those are mainstream distributions that happen to
> have accessibility support. Is it just my attitude or do others find using a
> special distro for the blind demeaning and insultive? Instead of expecting
> people to use a blind-friendly distro, why not use an already accessible
> distro such as Debian or Ubuntu in the first place? Besides generally
> getting a lot better support and a larger user base, there is no guarantee
> that a single developer will continue releasing new versions of the
> specialist distro in a timely manner. That happens with mainstream distros
> already. Also, granted I refuse to use the Vinux CD for the simple reason
> that I feel that I shouldn't have to use a specialist distro, but what does
> it offer that Ubuntu doesn't already? From what I've read, it has deleted
> graphics packages but still comes with the same accessibility features and
> packages.
>
> A good example of what I'm talking about is Oralux. It's now abandoned and
> apparently used its own packaging system. I was helping someone switch to
> grml because Oralux wasn't really working anymore and was abandoned. Why not
> just use Debian or grml in the first place? If someone could please explain
> why Vinux is so much better than a mainstream distro and why one should lower
> their standards to using a special distro primarily for the blind, I would be
> very interested. To me, this is like being required to use sighted help for
> something that the blind can do independently. Note that I'm not talking
> about using a screen reader or software to help the blind do a task easier,
> I'm only talking about locking oneself into a special distro that might not
> have long term support and is not designed for the general population.
>
> Georgina Joyce wrote:
>> But just having caught up I noticed that no-one seemed to mention vinux.
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread