Accessible Ubuntu Installation?

Accessible Ubuntu Installation?

[Gaijin]

	Hello all,

	Just wondering if anyone is running Ubuntu and know how to
install it?  I can't seem to find anything referring to accessibility,
speakup, jupiter, or software synthesis parameters available with a
Ubuntu installation.  GRML is not starting with the swspeak boot
parameter on my puter on my desktop.  Maybe because I have a motherboard
and SB Live sound card installed.  TIA,

			Michael

Re: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?

[Tyler Littlefield]

Hello,
I haven't had much luck with it, but I did get a basic debian system going 
with grml, if that helps.
I didn't have the money to invest in a hardware synth, and I don't have a 
serial port, so I was limited to software speech.
I basically used a grml cd, made my partitions, used grub-install on the 
boot partitions, used debootstrap on the / partition, mounted, used 
mount --bind on proc and sys, then chrooted and installed a kernel and a 
bootloader.
HTH,

Thanks,
Tyler Littlefield
Web: tysdomain.com
email: tyler@tysdomain.com
My programs don't have bugs, they're called randomly added features.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gaijin" <gaijin@clearwire.net>
To: "SpeakUP Mailing List" <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 12:35 AM
Subject: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?


> Hello all,
>
> Just wondering if anyone is running Ubuntu and know how to
> install it?  I can't seem to find anything referring to accessibility,
> speakup, jupiter, or software synthesis parameters available with a
> Ubuntu installation.  GRML is not starting with the swspeak boot
> parameter on my puter on my desktop.  Maybe because I have a motherboard
> and SB Live sound card installed.  TIA,
>
> Michael
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 

Re: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?

[Gregory Nowak]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I haven't played with ubuntu for a while, but as far as I know, it
still comes with orca, and the gui installer is very accessible from
what I recall. You can find some install notes with orca and ubuntu
at:

http://live.gnome.org/Orca/UbuntuHardy

There's also:

http://www.ubuntu.com

of course. Current versions of ubuntu don't come with speakup, I don't
know about the rest of the text console screen review programs. Hth.

Greg


On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 11:35:26PM -0700, Gaijin wrote:
> 	Hello all,
> 
> 	Just wondering if anyone is running Ubuntu and know how to
> install it?  I can't seem to find anything referring to accessibility,
> speakup, jupiter, or software synthesis parameters available with a
> Ubuntu installation.  GRML is not starting with the swspeak boot
> parameter on my puter on my desktop.  Maybe because I have a motherboard
> and SB Live sound card installed.  TIA,
> 
> 			Michael
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

- -- 
web site: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org
gpg public key: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org/pubkey.asc
skype: gregn1
(authorization required, add me to your contacts list first)

- --
Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org
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=lzHz
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?

[Michael Whapples]

I don't know what the status is with ubuntu, but generally its GUI based 
and so concentrates on orca.

I will try and attend to your GRML issues. Firstly if you have more than 
one sound card check both cards for audio output, it can be 
unpredictable which will be used as the default card when booting the 
liveCD. Also remember that passing the swspeak command at the boot 
prompt only prepares the system for software speech output, you should 
hear a message saying that software speech is enabled and to run swspeak 
when booting finishes and another telling you that booting has finished. 
I find the one telling you that booting has finished tells you a few 
seconds before the command prompt actually appears. Once booting has 
finished then run the command:
swspeak
and speakup should start talking via software speech.

If you hear neither of the boot messages, either your sound isn't 
working (although I would expect the SB live to work without issue) or 
your listening through the wrong sound card (hence my earlier comment to 
try and listen to both).

Unfortunately the "which sound card" issue can't be solved entirely for 
liveCDs (I believe it affects more than GRML) but once installed it can 
be solved with the index option to the sound modules and may be 
~/.asoundrc files. Also you may be able to do something if you use GRML 
as a liveCD regular by looking into some of its persistance options for 
storing settings perminantly.

Does any of this help with GRML?

Michael Whapples
On -10/01/37 20:59, Gaijin wrote:
>   Hello all,
>
>   Just wondering if anyone is running Ubuntu and know how to
> install it?  I can't seem to find anything referring to accessibility,
> speakup, jupiter, or software synthesis parameters available with a
> Ubuntu installation.  GRML is not starting with the swspeak boot
> parameter on my puter on my desktop.  Maybe because I have a motherboard
> and SB Live sound card installed.  TIA,
>
>           Michael
>
>
>
>    

Re: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?

[Glenn Ervin]

Along with what Greg gave, you might want to know that if you use the Orca 
software synth, and you begin the install, it will quit talking once it gets 
to the disk partitioner.
The way around this is to not start the install that is on the desktop, but 
to go to a terminal, and login as administrator by doing:
sudo su
Then you unload Orca with insert + Q
You will have to tab to quit and press enter.
Then you reload orca as such:
"orca --no -setup --disable main-window&"
Then it may not speak while you are typing, but type in the following:
"ubiquity"
and press enter, and you will get an accessible install, including the 
partitioner.
HTH.
Glenn
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gregory Nowak" <greg@romuald.net.eu.org>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 2:09 AM
Subject: Re: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I haven't played with ubuntu for a while, but as far as I know, it
still comes with orca, and the gui installer is very accessible from
what I recall. You can find some install notes with orca and ubuntu
at:

http://live.gnome.org/Orca/UbuntuHardy

There's also:

http://www.ubuntu.com

of course. Current versions of ubuntu don't come with speakup, I don't
know about the rest of the text console screen review programs. Hth.

Greg


On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 11:35:26PM -0700, Gaijin wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> Just wondering if anyone is running Ubuntu and know how to
> install it?  I can't seem to find anything referring to accessibility,
> speakup, jupiter, or software synthesis parameters available with a
> Ubuntu installation.  GRML is not starting with the swspeak boot
> parameter on my puter on my desktop.  Maybe because I have a motherboard
> and SB Live sound card installed.  TIA,
>
> Michael
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

- -- 
web site: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org
gpg public key: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org/pubkey.asc
skype: gregn1
(authorization required, add me to your contacts list first)

- --
Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org
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AUsAn3KvgNjr/JNp4Gd9YKVis0v5G7+W
=lzHz
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http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup




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RE: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?

[Jerry Matheny]

With the latest Ubuntu 9.04 no need to mess with that unloading Orca and
reloading it as root and ubiquity stuff. All you do is boot up the cd, press
enter, f5, enter, enter, and it will load with accessability support, Orca
will come up talking and everything. Then just select the install icon from
the Gnome desktop and it will automatically come up talking, the way it's
supposed to.

-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of Michael Whapples
Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 11:32 AM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?

I don't know what the status is with ubuntu, but generally its GUI based 
and so concentrates on orca.

I will try and attend to your GRML issues. Firstly if you have more than 
one sound card check both cards for audio output, it can be 
unpredictable which will be used as the default card when booting the 
liveCD. Also remember that passing the swspeak command at the boot 
prompt only prepares the system for software speech output, you should 
hear a message saying that software speech is enabled and to run swspeak 
when booting finishes and another telling you that booting has finished. 
I find the one telling you that booting has finished tells you a few 
seconds before the command prompt actually appears. Once booting has 
finished then run the command:
swspeak
and speakup should start talking via software speech.

If you hear neither of the boot messages, either your sound isn't 
working (although I would expect the SB live to work without issue) or 
your listening through the wrong sound card (hence my earlier comment to 
try and listen to both).

Unfortunately the "which sound card" issue can't be solved entirely for 
liveCDs (I believe it affects more than GRML) but once installed it can 
be solved with the index option to the sound modules and may be 
~/.asoundrc files. Also you may be able to do something if you use GRML 
as a liveCD regular by looking into some of its persistance options for 
storing settings perminantly.

Does any of this help with GRML?

Michael Whapples
On -10/01/37 20:59, Gaijin wrote:
>   Hello all,
>
>   Just wondering if anyone is running Ubuntu and know how to
> install it?  I can't seem to find anything referring to accessibility,
> speakup, jupiter, or software synthesis parameters available with a
> Ubuntu installation.  GRML is not starting with the swspeak boot
> parameter on my puter on my desktop.  Maybe because I have a motherboard
> and SB Live sound card installed.  TIA,
>
>           Michael
>
>
>
>    

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?

[Glenn Ervin]

Hi,
I have the latest, and it does come up talking, until you get to the disk 
partitioning part of the installation.
Unless you have a sound card I guess.
Ubiquity is the work-around for this.
Glenn
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jerry Matheny" <starnoble@gmail.com>
To: "'Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.'" 
<speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 3:58 PM
Subject: RE: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?


With the latest Ubuntu 9.04 no need to mess with that unloading Orca and
reloading it as root and ubiquity stuff. All you do is boot up the cd, press
enter, f5, enter, enter, and it will load with accessability support, Orca
will come up talking and everything. Then just select the install icon from
the Gnome desktop and it will automatically come up talking, the way it's
supposed to.

-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of Michael Whapples
Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 11:32 AM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?

I don't know what the status is with ubuntu, but generally its GUI based
and so concentrates on orca.

I will try and attend to your GRML issues. Firstly if you have more than
one sound card check both cards for audio output, it can be
unpredictable which will be used as the default card when booting the
liveCD. Also remember that passing the swspeak command at the boot
prompt only prepares the system for software speech output, you should
hear a message saying that software speech is enabled and to run swspeak
when booting finishes and another telling you that booting has finished.
I find the one telling you that booting has finished tells you a few
seconds before the command prompt actually appears. Once booting has
finished then run the command:
swspeak
and speakup should start talking via software speech.

If you hear neither of the boot messages, either your sound isn't
working (although I would expect the SB live to work without issue) or
your listening through the wrong sound card (hence my earlier comment to
try and listen to both).

Unfortunately the "which sound card" issue can't be solved entirely for
liveCDs (I believe it affects more than GRML) but once installed it can
be solved with the index option to the sound modules and may be
~/.asoundrc files. Also you may be able to do something if you use GRML
as a liveCD regular by looking into some of its persistance options for
storing settings perminantly.

Does any of this help with GRML?

Michael Whapples
On -10/01/37 20:59, Gaijin wrote:
>   Hello all,
>
>   Just wondering if anyone is running Ubuntu and know how to
> install it?  I can't seem to find anything referring to accessibility,
> speakup, jupiter, or software synthesis parameters available with a
> Ubuntu installation.  GRML is not starting with the swspeak boot
> parameter on my puter on my desktop.  Maybe because I have a motherboard
> and SB Live sound card installed.  TIA,
>
>           Michael
>
>
>
>

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup




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Re: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?

[Georgina Joyce]

Hi

Sorry, a bit late catching up with my mail.

But just having caught up I noticed that no-one seemed to mention vinux.

www.vinux.org.uk

But like many users.  Vinux is likely to move to debian.  Ubuntu seems
to be problematic.  Bugs slip through because of the rapid devel cycle.
Many orca users are frustrated by orca continually stopping.  Which I
believe has had a negative affect upon orca.  Since returning to debian,
I don't think orca has stopped at all.
 
Gena




On Sat, 2009-05-23 at 23:35 -0700, Gaijin wrote:
> 	Hello all,
> 
> 	Just wondering if anyone is running Ubuntu and know how to
> install it?  I can't seem to find anything referring to accessibility,
> speakup, jupiter, or software synthesis parameters available with a
> Ubuntu installation.  GRML is not starting with the swspeak boot
> parameter on my puter on my desktop.  Maybe because I have a motherboard
> and SB Live sound card installed.  TIA,
> 
> 			Michael
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
-- 
Gena

M0EBP

http://ready2golinux.com 

Vinux (was: Re: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?)

[Tony Baechler]

Hi,

I'm not trying to pick on this particular post or the person posting 
it.  Is it just me, or do others here have a real problem with the idea 
of using a specialized distro for the blind?  Let me explain what I 
mean.  I am a very happy Debian user, although I've looked at Slackware, 
Red Hat, Gentoo and the Ubuntu live CD.  All of those are mainstream 
distributions that happen to have accessibility support.  Is it just my 
attitude or do others find using a special distro for the blind 
demeaning and insultive?  Instead of expecting people to use a 
blind-friendly distro, why not use an already accessible distro such as 
Debian or Ubuntu in the first place?  Besides generally getting a lot 
better support and a larger user base, there is no guarantee that a 
single developer will continue releasing new versions of the specialist 
distro in a timely manner.  That happens with mainstream distros 
already.  Also, granted I refuse to use the Vinux CD for the simple 
reason that I feel that I shouldn't have to use a specialist distro, but 
what does it offer that Ubuntu doesn't already?  From what I've read, it 
has deleted graphics packages but still comes with the same 
accessibility features and packages.

A good example of what I'm talking about is Oralux.  It's now abandoned 
and apparently used its own packaging system.  I was helping someone 
switch to grml because Oralux wasn't really working anymore and was 
abandoned.  Why not just use Debian or grml in the first place?  If 
someone could please explain why Vinux is so much better than a 
mainstream distro and why one should lower their standards to using a 
special distro primarily for the blind, I would be very interested.  To 
me, this is like being required to use sighted help for something that 
the blind can do independently.  Note that I'm not talking about using a 
screen reader or software to help the blind do a task easier, I'm only 
talking about locking oneself into a special distro that might not have 
long term support and is not designed for the general population.

Georgina Joyce wrote:
> But just having caught up I noticed that no-one seemed to mention vinux.
>   

Re: Vinux (was: Re: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?)

[Samuel Thibault]

Tony Baechler, le Mon 01 Jun 2009 04:22:06 -0700, a écrit :
> If someone could please explain why Vinux is so much better than a    
> mainstream distro and why one should lower their standards to using a 
> special distro primarily for the blind,

My understanding is that it's available _now_ with tweaks here and
there, not waiting for distributions to properly fix things like e.g.
orca's reading of root-launched applications.  I do too believe that
it's not a viable long-term solution.

Samuel

Re: Vinux (was: Re: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?)

[James & Nash]

Also it is a way to get blind people interested in Linux without having to 
mess around with various things. Linux still has a reputation for being very 
technical and designed primarily for very computer literate people not just 
the average home user which I would think the majority of people blind and 
otherwise are. That said some distros have made significant steps in making 
Linux accessible to a growing range of folks.

Take care
James Lyn Nash and Twinny
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Samuel Thibault" <samuel.thibault@ens-lyon.org>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 12:30 PM
Subject: Re: Vinux (was: Re: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?)


Tony Baechler, le Mon 01 Jun 2009 04:22:06 -0700, a écrit :
> If someone could please explain why Vinux is so much better than a
> mainstream distro and why one should lower their standards to using a
> special distro primarily for the blind,

My understanding is that it's available _now_ with tweaks here and
there, not waiting for distributions to properly fix things like e.g.
orca's reading of root-launched applications.  I do too believe that
it's not a viable long-term solution.

Samuel
_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 

Re: Vinux

[Hermann]

On 01.06.2009 at 13:30:08 Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@ens-lyon.org> wrote:

> Tony Baechler, le Mon 01 Jun 2009 04:22:06 -0700, a écrit :
>> If someone could please explain why Vinux is so much better than a    
>> mainstream distro and why one should lower their standards to using a 
>> special distro primarily for the blind,
>
> My understanding is that it's available _now_ with tweaks here and
> there, not waiting for distributions to properly fix things like e.g.
> orca's reading of root-launched applications.  I do too believe that
> it's not a viable long-term solution.
>
Exactly! Vinux was a reaction to the fact that more and more complains
arrised about Ubuntu, and the maintainer of Vinux does not intend to
create a special System for the blind. That's a big difference to Oralux
or - the latest one in that family - Adriane.
In addition: There are plans to shift Vinux to be based on Lenny.
The difference to an original Debian or GRML - wich btw. I use - is,
that Vinux, like Ubuntu, comes with Orca and other a11y stuff out of the
box.
Under GRML, for example, you have to do a lot of work to set up Gnome,
Orca and all that stuff. GRML comes with a lot of lightweight window
managers of which non is accessible.
I think we should keep all this in mind when going on with taht thread.
Hermann

RE: Vinux (was: Re: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?)

[al Sten-Clanton]

Hi!

I used to call myself a "hard-core integrationist."  Although I'd like to
find myself a lable with a somewhat different emphasis, being less
interested in conformity than in promoting equality in the number and
quality of choices, that's still not a bad term for my take on the world.
As a general approach to living in the world, therefore, I regard your
points as very sound.  

I presently use a mainstream Linux distro, Fedora.  I had to make this
version of it accessible, though, and was only able to do it after I found
the installation guide to a much earlier version.  I could upgrade to this
version only because I had a version modified with speakup.  I believe it's
correct to call this a specialized spin, and I also take it that the Fedora
gang itself is not about to make speakup available in the standard versions
any time soon, if at all.  Is this very different from Vinux, or from Chris
Brannon's Arch Linux CD?  Is it--well--less integrated than using GRML,
which I have used,  or the latest Debian release?  (Vinux is based on or is
a variant of Ubuntu, after all, and may become one of Debian, both utterly
mainstream distros.)

Frankly, I thought it was pretty cool that Vinux gave me speech
automatically when I booted up the CD:  I didn't have to wait the right
number of seconds to type just the right thing, but could sit and wait like
my sighted peers.  I didn't get as much boot-up info as they'd get, but
that's not Vinux's fault.  Maybe this is a quirk of mine, but Vinux also
made it easier to get started with Orca, though I then went back to Fedora
to go further.  

Since there seem to be a lot of specialized Linux distros, I doubt at this
point that some made to work better than usual for blind people are
necessarily nitches in second-class cybercitizenship.  Regarding
accessibility, I'm sure no better off if a mainstream distro drops it than
if an accessible distro dies.  We BrailleNote users know that special tools
can have big problems, but I'd bet that those of the BrailleNote, for
example, would be fewer or more manageable if its software was "free." 

That's my penny's worth for now.

Al

 

-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of Tony Baechler
Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:22 AM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Vinux (was: Re: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?)

Hi,

I'm not trying to pick on this particular post or the person posting it.  Is
it just me, or do others here have a real problem with the idea of using a
specialized distro for the blind?  Let me explain what I mean.  I am a very
happy Debian user, although I've looked at Slackware, Red Hat, Gentoo and
the Ubuntu live CD.  All of those are mainstream distributions that happen
to have accessibility support.  Is it just my attitude or do others find
using a special distro for the blind demeaning and insultive?  Instead of
expecting people to use a blind-friendly distro, why not use an already
accessible distro such as Debian or Ubuntu in the first place?  Besides
generally getting a lot better support and a larger user base, there is no
guarantee that a single developer will continue releasing new versions of
the specialist distro in a timely manner.  That happens with mainstream
distros already.  Also, granted I refuse to use the Vinux CD for the simple
reason that I feel that I shouldn't have to use a specialist distro, but
what does it offer that Ubuntu doesn't already?  From what I've read, it has
deleted graphics packages but still comes with the same accessibility
features and packages.

A good example of what I'm talking about is Oralux.  It's now abandoned and
apparently used its own packaging system.  I was helping someone switch to
grml because Oralux wasn't really working anymore and was abandoned.  Why
not just use Debian or grml in the first place?  If someone could please
explain why Vinux is so much better than a mainstream distro and why one
should lower their standards to using a special distro primarily for the
blind, I would be very interested.  To me, this is like being required to
use sighted help for something that the blind can do independently.  Note
that I'm not talking about using a screen reader or software to help the
blind do a task easier, I'm only talking about locking oneself into a
special distro that might not have long term support and is not designed for
the general population.

Georgina Joyce wrote:
> But just having caught up I noticed that no-one seemed to mention vinux.
>   

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Vinux (was: Re: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?)

[John G. Heim]

The main reason for something like vinux is that a lot of people have a hard 
time just getting started with linux. Over on a list for blind sysadmins, 
the question comes up just about every time someone mentions live CDs -- is 
there one that comes up talking without my having to just the right key at 
just the right time.

People are already struggling with linux, they don't want to have to 
struggle to get speech started too.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tony Baechler" <tony@baechler.net>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 6:22 AM
Subject: Vinux (was: Re: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?)


> Hi,
>
> I'm not trying to pick on this particular post or the person posting it. 
> Is it just me, or do others here have a real problem with the idea of 
> using a specialized distro for the blind?  Let me explain what I mean.  I 
> am a very happy Debian user, although I've looked at Slackware, Red Hat, 
> Gentoo and the Ubuntu live CD.  All of those are mainstream distributions 
> that happen to have accessibility support.  Is it just my attitude or do 
> others find using a special distro for the blind demeaning and insultive? 
> Instead of expecting people to use a blind-friendly distro, why not use an 
> already accessible distro such as Debian or Ubuntu in the first place? 
> Besides generally getting a lot better support and a larger user base, 
> there is no guarantee that a single developer will continue releasing new 
> versions of the specialist distro in a timely manner.  That happens with 
> mainstream distros already.  Also, granted I refuse to use the Vinux CD 
> for the simple reason that I feel that I shouldn't have to use a 
> specialist distro, but what does it offer that Ubuntu doesn't already? 
> From what I've read, it has deleted graphics packages but still comes with 
> the same accessibility features and packages.
>
> A good example of what I'm talking about is Oralux.  It's now abandoned 
> and apparently used its own packaging system.  I was helping someone 
> switch to grml because Oralux wasn't really working anymore and was 
> abandoned.  Why not just use Debian or grml in the first place?  If 
> someone could please explain why Vinux is so much better than a mainstream 
> distro and why one should lower their standards to using a special distro 
> primarily for the blind, I would be very interested.  To me, this is like 
> being required to use sighted help for something that the blind can do 
> independently.  Note that I'm not talking about using a screen reader or 
> software to help the blind do a task easier, I'm only talking about 
> locking oneself into a special distro that might not have long term 
> support and is not designed for the general population.
>
> Georgina Joyce wrote:
>> But just having caught up I noticed that no-one seemed to mention vinux.
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> 

Re: Vinux (was: Re: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?)

[Georgina Joyce]

Hi

Linux is about choice and you've had choice.  Anything that makes linux
available to more VI people has my vote.  For new users to have access
to for screen readers that they can explore is an excellent opportunity
for promoting linux.  Just because I struggled in 1998 it doesn't mean
that everyone following has to do so too.

Furthermore, because of vinux.  Linux is going to be at Sight Village,
so that people can hav a hands on look at linux.  I'm hoping that I can
assist Tony in demonstrating linux.

There's nothing elitist about using linux.
 
Thanks.


On Mon, 2009-06-01 at 04:22 -0700, Tony Baechler wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm not trying to pick on this particular post or the person posting 
> it.  Is it just me, or do others here have a real problem with the idea 
> of using a specialized distro for the blind?  Let me explain what I 
> mean.  I am a very happy Debian user, although I've looked at Slackware, 
> Red Hat, Gentoo and the Ubuntu live CD.  All of those are mainstream 
> distributions that happen to have accessibility support.  Is it just my 
> attitude or do others find using a special distro for the blind 
> demeaning and insultive?  Instead of expecting people to use a 
> blind-friendly distro, why not use an already accessible distro such as 
> Debian or Ubuntu in the first place?  Besides generally getting a lot 
> better support and a larger user base, there is no guarantee that a 
> single developer will continue releasing new versions of the specialist 
> distro in a timely manner.  That happens with mainstream distros 
> already.  Also, granted I refuse to use the Vinux CD for the simple 
> reason that I feel that I shouldn't have to use a specialist distro, but 
> what does it offer that Ubuntu doesn't already?  From what I've read, it 
> has deleted graphics packages but still comes with the same 
> accessibility features and packages.
> 
> A good example of what I'm talking about is Oralux.  It's now abandoned 
> and apparently used its own packaging system.  I was helping someone 
> switch to grml because Oralux wasn't really working anymore and was 
> abandoned.  Why not just use Debian or grml in the first place?  If 
> someone could please explain why Vinux is so much better than a 
> mainstream distro and why one should lower their standards to using a 
> special distro primarily for the blind, I would be very interested.  To 
> me, this is like being required to use sighted help for something that 
> the blind can do independently.  Note that I'm not talking about using a 
> screen reader or software to help the blind do a task easier, I'm only 
> talking about locking oneself into a special distro that might not have 
> long term support and is not designed for the general population.
> 
> Georgina Joyce wrote:
> > But just having caught up I noticed that no-one seemed to mention vinux.
> >   
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
-- 
Gena

M0EBP

http://ready2golinux.com 

Re: Vinux (was: Re: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?)

[William F. Acker WB2FLW +1 303 722 7209]

I couldn't agree more!  As it happens, I maintain a version of Fedora that 
we call "Speakup Modified Fedora".  I do this only because, IMPO, Fedora 
isn't doing what it should be doing.  I rebuild the kernel to include our 
favorite screen review system, add espeak, which is in the distro, but, 
amazingly, not on the installation media.  I also add python-brlapi and 
speech-dispatcher, again both in the distro but missing from the disks.  I 
remove absolutely nothing!  Therefore, SMF can be handed out at LUG 
meetings in the knowledge that any user can install it and use whatever 
features, whether in the original Fedora, or added in SMF.  Another 
advantage to using SMF is that every time The Fedora Project updates any 
package, no matter how small, SMF is re spun with the updated packages.


-- 
           Bill in Denver

On Mon, 1 Jun 2009, Tony Baechler wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm not trying to pick on this particular post or the person posting it.  Is 
> it just me, or do others here have a real problem with the idea of using a 
> specialized distro for the blind?  Let me explain what I mean.  I am a very 
> happy Debian user, although I've looked at Slackware, Red Hat, Gentoo and the 
> Ubuntu live CD.  All of those are mainstream distributions that happen to 
> have accessibility support.  Is it just my attitude or do others find using a 
> special distro for the blind demeaning and insultive?  Instead of expecting 
> people to use a blind-friendly distro, why not use an already accessible 
> distro such as Debian or Ubuntu in the first place?  Besides generally 
> getting a lot better support and a larger user base, there is no guarantee 
> that a single developer will continue releasing new versions of the 
> specialist distro in a timely manner.  That happens with mainstream distros 
> already.  Also, granted I refuse to use the Vinux CD for the simple reason 
> that I feel that I shouldn't have to use a specialist distro, but what does 
> it offer that Ubuntu doesn't already?  From what I've read, it has deleted 
> graphics packages but still comes with the same accessibility features and 
> packages.
>
> A good example of what I'm talking about is Oralux.  It's now abandoned and 
> apparently used its own packaging system.  I was helping someone switch to 
> grml because Oralux wasn't really working anymore and was abandoned.  Why not 
> just use Debian or grml in the first place?  If someone could please explain 
> why Vinux is so much better than a mainstream distro and why one should lower 
> their standards to using a special distro primarily for the blind, I would be 
> very interested.  To me, this is like being required to use sighted help for 
> something that the blind can do independently.  Note that I'm not talking 
> about using a screen reader or software to help the blind do a task easier, 
> I'm only talking about locking oneself into a special distro that might not 
> have long term support and is not designed for the general population.
>
> Georgina Joyce wrote:
>> But just having caught up I noticed that no-one seemed to mention vinux.
>> 
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Vinux

[Tony Baechler]

Hi,

I must disagree here.  Ubuntu already has Orca included on the live CD 
and can be accessed either once the CD is booted or from the boot menu 
with sighted help.  Perhaps you're saying that the general blind 
population would rather use a distro targeted to them, but even then I 
would be doubtful.  You don't see a special version of Windows or DOS 
for the blind, even though there are screen readers that can be 
installed.  I was independently able to boot and use the Ubuntu live CD 
and start Orca, although I did read posts here and at various other 
places first.  My point is that I'm really not sure that most blind 
people need or want a specialized distro and Ubuntu still fills the need 
for an accessible live CD.  This doesn't count grml, which also has 
software speech included and can be booted independently.  Finally, 
although Vinux is gaining in popularity, it still isn't that popular and 
is still relatively early in its development.

My great concern about projects such as Oralux and Vinux are that the 
mainstream developers, as well as other Linux users, will assume that no 
effort should be wasted in making their particular distro accessible 
because Vinux is already designed for the blind, so the blind should 
just use that.  Before the release of Debian Lenny, there was discussion 
on the various Debian lists from developers trying to understand why 
Speakup should be included as part of the installer.  Apparently quite a 
few people think that the blind should be relegated to their own special 
accessible CD image, leaving the regular CD images completely 
inaccessible.  As Samuel has pointed out, while a special CD image isn't 
all bad because of the overhead of software speech, it adds lots of 
extra confusion for the potential blind user who really doesn't know 
what to download.  I recently had a similar experience with Ubuntu, and 
I've been involved with Linux since 2000.  It took a long time before I 
could find the x86-64 standard Ubuntu CD image.  Ubuntu doesn't have a 
special accessible image because it isn't necessary.  I had no problem 
booting it and running Orca manually.  I can't imagine how much more 
difficult it would be for someone with no Linux knowledge and perhaps 
very little technical knowledge generally.  Getting back to the original 
point, I guess that's where Vinux might be useful, there is no thought 
required in trying to figure out what distro to use.  However, one 
should, in an ideal world, be able to download any CD image of any 
distro and have accessibility included with no worries of whether it's a 
special distro for the blind or not.

James & Nash wrote:
> Also it is a way to get blind people interested in Linux without 
> having to mess around with various things. Linux still has a 
> reputation for being very technical and designed primarily for very 
> computer literate people not just the average home user which I would 
> think the majority of people blind and otherwise are. That said some 
> distros have made significant steps in making Linux accessible to a 
> growing range of folks.
>
> Take care
> James Lyn Nash and Twinny
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Samuel Thibault" 
> <samuel.thibault@ens-lyon.org>
> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." 
> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 12:30 PM
> Subject: Re: Vinux (was: Re: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?)
>
>
> Tony Baechler, le Mon 01 Jun 2009 04:22:06 -0700, a écrit :
>> If someone could please explain why Vinux is so much better than a
>> mainstream distro and why one should lower their standards to using a
>> special distro primarily for the blind,
>
> My understanding is that it's available _now_ with tweaks here and
> there, not waiting for distributions to properly fix things like e.g.
> orca's reading of root-launched applications.  I do too believe that
> it's not a viable long-term solution.
>
> Samuel
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Vinux

[Tony Baechler]

Hi,

Again, I must disagree.  Debian does install basic accessibility with a 
standard install.  It doesn't install Orca, although it should.  It does 
install Speakup and I think brltty though.  Samuel is working on an 
accessibility section of the archive which should help, but Orca should 
be included as part of the standard desktop task.  Even so, one does get 
a bootable system with speech after the install and one can easily 
install Orca.  Again, Ubuntu includes Orca already, but not Speakup.  I 
guess in that regard, a distro that includes both out of the box would 
be better.  I'm not saying that any distro is perfect, and even Debian 
has work to do to make it more accessible, but the tools are easily 
available and included as part of Debian, while Orca is part of Ubuntu.

I do agree that grml is very difficult to use with X.  I got nowhere 
when I tried, so I gave up.  It is a very good command line CD and does 
include software speech, but it should include a way to install the 
standard desktop task with Orca as the Debian installer does.

Hermann wrote:
> The difference to an original Debian or GRML - wich btw. I use - is,
> that Vinux, like Ubuntu, comes with Orca and other a11y stuff out of the
> box.
>   

Re: Vinux

[Samuel Thibault]

Tony Baechler, le Tue 02 Jun 2009 02:08:44 -0700, a écrit :
> Again, I must disagree.  Debian does install basic accessibility with a 
> standard install.  It doesn't install Orca, although it should.

That was a bug.  I asked quite a few times for tests etc. but never got
that bug report before the release.  So it got fixed after the release.
Bugs that are not reported are not fixed, that's all.

Samuel

Re: Vinux

[James & Nash]

Hi Tony,

Yes, I agree with you. In an ideal world we would be able to download any 
distro we wanted and it would be accessible to us - without the need for a 
specialized disc image.

Still, Vinux is still a great idea and might promote Linux for the blind 
until they feel comfortable setting up in other distros. Hopefully, other 
big distros like Debian will one day be able to be installed independently 
by the blind.

Take care

James, Lyn, Nash and Twinny
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tony Baechler" <tony@baechler.net>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 10:00 AM
Subject: Re: Vinux


Hi,

I must disagree here.  Ubuntu already has Orca included on the live CD
and can be accessed either once the CD is booted or from the boot menu
with sighted help.  Perhaps you're saying that the general blind
population would rather use a distro targeted to them, but even then I
would be doubtful.  You don't see a special version of Windows or DOS
for the blind, even though there are screen readers that can be
installed.  I was independently able to boot and use the Ubuntu live CD
and start Orca, although I did read posts here and at various other
places first.  My point is that I'm really not sure that most blind
people need or want a specialized distro and Ubuntu still fills the need
for an accessible live CD.  This doesn't count grml, which also has
software speech included and can be booted independently.  Finally,
although Vinux is gaining in popularity, it still isn't that popular and
is still relatively early in its development.

My great concern about projects such as Oralux and Vinux are that the
mainstream developers, as well as other Linux users, will assume that no
effort should be wasted in making their particular distro accessible
because Vinux is already designed for the blind, so the blind should
just use that.  Before the release of Debian Lenny, there was discussion
on the various Debian lists from developers trying to understand why
Speakup should be included as part of the installer.  Apparently quite a
few people think that the blind should be relegated to their own special
accessible CD image, leaving the regular CD images completely
inaccessible.  As Samuel has pointed out, while a special CD image isn't
all bad because of the overhead of software speech, it adds lots of
extra confusion for the potential blind user who really doesn't know
what to download.  I recently had a similar experience with Ubuntu, and
I've been involved with Linux since 2000.  It took a long time before I
could find the x86-64 standard Ubuntu CD image.  Ubuntu doesn't have a
special accessible image because it isn't necessary.  I had no problem
booting it and running Orca manually.  I can't imagine how much more
difficult it would be for someone with no Linux knowledge and perhaps
very little technical knowledge generally.  Getting back to the original
point, I guess that's where Vinux might be useful, there is no thought
required in trying to figure out what distro to use.  However, one
should, in an ideal world, be able to download any CD image of any
distro and have accessibility included with no worries of whether it's a
special distro for the blind or not.

James & Nash wrote:
> Also it is a way to get blind people interested in Linux without having to 
> mess around with various things. Linux still has a reputation for being 
> very technical and designed primarily for very computer literate people 
> not just the average home user which I would think the majority of people 
> blind and otherwise are. That said some distros have made significant 
> steps in making Linux accessible to a growing range of folks.
>
> Take care
> James Lyn Nash and Twinny
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Samuel Thibault" 
> <samuel.thibault@ens-lyon.org>
> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." 
> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 12:30 PM
> Subject: Re: Vinux (was: Re: Accessible Ubuntu Installation?)
>
>
> Tony Baechler, le Mon 01 Jun 2009 04:22:06 -0700, a écrit :
>> If someone could please explain why Vinux is so much better than a
>> mainstream distro and why one should lower their standards to using a
>> special distro primarily for the blind,
>
> My understanding is that it's available _now_ with tweaks here and
> there, not waiting for distributions to properly fix things like e.g.
> orca's reading of root-launched applications.  I do too believe that
> it's not a viable long-term solution.
>
> Samuel
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 

Re: Vinux

[Tony Baechler]

Ah, this I understand.  I was unaware that the live CD would come up 
talking.  That is a valid point and I can see why people would like 
that.  Oralux was supposed to do the same thing, but it didn't work for 
me.  Again, that opens up a bunch of other issues, such as what if there 
are multiple sound cards?  What if Linux doesn't support the driver for 
your sound card?  The advantage to something like grml is that you have 
more flexibility, even though it requires typing the right thing within 
the right number of seconds.  You can have software speech, hardware 
speech if you have a hardware synth, or no speech if you would rather 
use ssh, or a combination of the above.  I was working on someone else's 
machine when for no obvious reason, grml lost software speech.  I 
couldn't do much without speech, but it wasn't a problem.  I just set up 
dhcp, started an ssh server and finished from a different machine.  Yes, 
a new blind user won't know about that, but the point is that you aren't 
locked into one method of doing things, even though it does mean 
entering boot parameters.

I must say that I really like the way Debian handles this with the 
installation.  It beeps to let you know that it's booted and doesn't 
timeout right away.  It also is smart enough to install Speakup 
automatically if you use it to do the install.

John G. Heim wrote:
> The main reason for something like vinux is that a lot of people have 
> a hard time just getting started with linux. Over on a list for blind 
> sysadmins, the question comes up just about every time someone 
> mentions live CDs -- is there one that comes up talking without my 
> having to just the right key at just the right time.
>
> People are already struggling with linux, they don't want to have to 
> struggle to get speech started too.

Re: Vinux

[James & Nash]

Hi Tony,

So how do you tell Debian that you want to use speakup during the 
installation?

Thanks

james lyn Nash and Twinny
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tony Baechler" <tony@baechler.net>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 10:27 AM
Subject: Re: Vinux


> Ah, this I understand.  I was unaware that the live CD would come up 
> talking.  That is a valid point and I can see why people would like that. 
> Oralux was supposed to do the same thing, but it didn't work for me. 
> Again, that opens up a bunch of other issues, such as what if there are 
> multiple sound cards?  What if Linux doesn't support the driver for your 
> sound card?  The advantage to something like grml is that you have more 
> flexibility, even though it requires typing the right thing within the 
> right number of seconds.  You can have software speech, hardware speech if 
> you have a hardware synth, or no speech if you would rather use ssh, or a 
> combination of the above.  I was working on someone else's machine when 
> for no obvious reason, grml lost software speech.  I couldn't do much 
> without speech, but it wasn't a problem.  I just set up dhcp, started an 
> ssh server and finished from a different machine.  Yes, a new blind user 
> won't know about that, but the point is that you aren't locked into one 
> method of doing things, even though it does mean entering boot parameters.
>
> I must say that I really like the way Debian handles this with the 
> installation.  It beeps to let you know that it's booted and doesn't 
> timeout right away.  It also is smart enough to install Speakup 
> automatically if you use it to do the install.
>
> John G. Heim wrote:
>> The main reason for something like vinux is that a lot of people have a 
>> hard time just getting started with linux. Over on a list for blind 
>> sysadmins, the question comes up just about every time someone mentions 
>> live CDs -- is there one that comes up talking without my having to just 
>> the right key at just the right time.
>>
>> People are already struggling with linux, they don't want to have to 
>> struggle to get speech started too.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 

Re: Vinux

[Samuel Thibault]

James & Nash, le Tue 02 Jun 2009 11:32:33 +0100, a écrit :
> So how do you tell Debian that you want to use speakup during the 
> installation?

By reading the official documentation:

http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/ch05s02.html

Samuel

Re: Vinux

[James & Nash]

Thanks Samuel

James, Lyn, Nash and Twinny
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Samuel Thibault" <samuel.thibault@ens-lyon.org>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 12:29 PM
Subject: Re: Vinux


James & Nash, le Tue 02 Jun 2009 11:32:33 +0100, a écrit :
> So how do you tell Debian that you want to use speakup during the
> installation?

By reading the official documentation:

http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/ch05s02.html

Samuel
_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 

Re: Vinux

[Terry D. Cudney]

Hi guys,

   I want to step in here and say a big "Thank You" to Samuel and all the Debian Installer team.

   I have installed Debian using speakup for the installation, without sighted assistance on several machines, from A64's to notebooks.

   The installations have all been from CD or USB-stick using a Litetalk or Tripletalk synth for the installation and end up with speakup (with either hardware orespeak (software speech)) and orca access readily available.

   I agree that during installation, the timing/entry of parameters is a bit of a trick, and perhaps daunting to a new user, but what os can be installed unaided by a blind user besides this?

   The progress over the last year to make blind, unaided installation possible, has been impressive... thanks to people like Samuel it will only get better.

   We live in a world where we (the blind) are in the minority, but we don't have to be quarantined into exclusive programs for blind users... that just widens the gap between us and the rest of the world. The better way to go is what is being done with debian... make the installation  and use of the system fully accessible without barriers between us and the rest of the world.

   Thanks again to all who are working in the effort to make linux accessible... speakup, orca and all the people working on various mainstream distributions!

   My $0.02...

   --terry

On Tue, Jun 02, 2009 at 01:29:25PM +0200, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> James & Nash, le Tue 02 Jun 2009 11:32:33 +0100, a écrit :
> > So how do you tell Debian that you want to use speakup during the 
> > installation?
> 
> By reading the official documentation:
> 
> http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/ch05s02.html
> 
> Samuel
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
Name:	Terry D. Cudney
Phone:	705-812-4949
SIP: 8978@ekiga.net
E-mail:	terry@octothorp.org

Having a smoking section in a restaurant is like...
having a peeing sectionin a swimming pool.

Tired of technology? Check this out: http://www.shibumi.org/eoti.htm

Re: Vinux

[Gregory Nowak]

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Hash: SHA1

On Tue, Jun 02, 2009 at 02:08:44AM -0700, Tony Baechler wrote:
> Debian does install basic accessibility with a  
> standard install.  It doesn't install Orca, although it should.

I humbly beg to differ here. One of the things I like about debian,
(at least as far as installations of Etch were concerned), is that
doing a basic install, without running tasksel, gave you a system
about 400 Mb in size. Having orca installed as part of a base install
implies also installing x11, and gnome, which would bloat the installed
system significantly, and wouldn't be desirable for those who just
want to install a basic text console machine. Bloat is one of the
things I don't like about Ubuntu's install, and I seem to also recall
reading posts from people on this list who claim that an install of
GRML is also bloated, though I can't speak from experience, since the
last time I tried installing GRML to HD was a few years ago, and
things might have changed since then.

Greg


- -- 
web site: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org
gpg public key: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org/pubkey.asc
skype: gregn1
(authorization required, add me to your contacts list first)

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Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org
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re: vinux

[Georgina Joyce]

Hi

Vinux is now using debian.

On Tue, 2009-06-23 at 20:12 -0400, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> For really fast booting systems, ubuntu is a nightmare.  If a system boots 
> slower ubuntu probably will work, but with vinux even on a fast booting 
> system you boot it and wait and in time orca comes up talking.  The thing 
> with ubuntu as was explained over on the gnome-orca list is that several 
> issues with ubuntu regarding use of root account with speech were fixed in 
> vinux and those fixes went out pre-packaged.  I do have an older version 
> of ubuntu around which needed sighted assistance to get installed and 
> talking because of that booting issue.  There's no way I could recommend 
> ubuntu as a first Linux for a blind person needing accessibility like orca 
> but could recommend grml or vinux or debian though.  What was a nice 
> surprise with grml was that it installed on my laptop and runs, I don't 
> know that the other flavors of Linux can do that especially not debian.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
-- 
Gena


four kinds of freedom, for the users of the software:

    * The freedom to run the program, for any purpose (freedom 0).
    * The freedom to study how the program works, and adapt it to your
needs (freedom 1). Access to the source code is a precondition for this.
    * The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor
(freedom 2).
    * The freedom to improve the program, and release your improvements
to the public, so that the whole community benefits (freedom 3). Access
to the source code is a precondition for this.

Richard Matthew Stallman

re: vinux

[Jude DaShiell]

For really fast booting systems, ubuntu is a nightmare.  If a system boots 
slower ubuntu probably will work, but with vinux even on a fast booting 
system you boot it and wait and in time orca comes up talking.  The thing 
with ubuntu as was explained over on the gnome-orca list is that several 
issues with ubuntu regarding use of root account with speech were fixed in 
vinux and those fixes went out pre-packaged.  I do have an older version 
of ubuntu around which needed sighted assistance to get installed and 
talking because of that booting issue.  There's no way I could recommend 
ubuntu as a first Linux for a blind person needing accessibility like orca 
but could recommend grml or vinux or debian though.  What was a nice 
surprise with grml was that it installed on my laptop and runs, I don't 
know that the other flavors of Linux can do that especially not debian.