* Re: If bash can, why not Speakup? @ pj ` William Hubbs 0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: pj @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Janina Sajka wrote: > I've been happily using vim for years. How do you cope with the endlessly-updating bottom line?, like: "497L, 15593C 450,2 93%" I find speakup is in general difficult with curses applications because of their screen-update optimisation. The characters don't necessarily come out in a text-related order. > My biggest complaint is that I need to be ultra-careful to > track whether I'm in insert or command mode, i.e. it would > sure help if Speakup could give me a differently pitched voice Good point :-) It might need some help from the vim folk... Peter Billam http://www.pjb.com.au pj@pjb.com.au (03) 6278 9410 "Was der Meister nicht kann, vermöcht es der Knabe, hätt er ihm immer gehorcht?" Siegfried to Mime, from Act 1 Scene 2 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: If bash can, why not Speakup? If bash can, why not Speakup? pj @ ` William Hubbs ` Albert Sten-Clanton ` If bash can, why not Speakup? Janina Sajka 0 siblings, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: William Hubbs @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 09:23:29AM +1000, pj@pjb.com.au wrote: > Janina Sajka wrote: > > I've been happily using vim for years. > > How do you cope with the endlessly-updating bottom line?, like: > "497L, 15593C 450,2 93%" > > I find speakup is in general difficult with curses applications > because of their screen-update optimisation. The characters > don't necessarily come out in a text-related order. You can disable that line by putting the following line in your ~/.vimrc: set noruler > > My biggest complaint is that I need to be ultra-careful to > > track whether I'm in insert or command mode, i.e. it would > > sure help if Speakup could give me a differently pitched voice > > Good point :-) It might need some help from the vim folk... Yes, something like this would take modifications to vim to make it communicate to speakup some how, and I'm not sure what that would involve since I haven't looked at the vim code at all. William ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* RE: If bash can, why not Speakup? ` William Hubbs @ ` Albert Sten-Clanton ` Steve Holmes ` Speech on vim backspace [Was: If bash can, why not Speakup?] Janina Sajka ` If bash can, why not Speakup? Janina Sajka 1 sibling, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Albert Sten-Clanton @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: 'Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.' In addition to the suggestion below, I'd very much like to hear the characters I'm backspacing over. I asked about this a few years ago, but I gathered that this wasn't easy to do. Any thoughts? Al -----Original Message----- From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca] On Behalf Of William Hubbs Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 6:31 PM To: speakup@braille.uwo.ca Subject: Re: If bash can, why not Speakup? On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 09:23:29AM +1000, pj@pjb.com.au wrote: > Janina Sajka wrote: > > I've been happily using vim for years. > > How do you cope with the endlessly-updating bottom line?, like: > "497L, 15593C 450,2 93%" > > I find speakup is in general difficult with curses applications > because of their screen-update optimisation. The characters don't > necessarily come out in a text-related order. You can disable that line by putting the following line in your ~/.vimrc: set noruler > > My biggest complaint is that I need to be ultra-careful to track > > whether I'm in insert or command mode, i.e. it would sure help if > > Speakup could give me a differently pitched voice > > Good point :-) It might need some help from the vim folk... Yes, something like this would take modifications to vim to make it communicate to speakup some how, and I'm not sure what that would involve since I haven't looked at the vim code at all. William _______________________________________________ Speakup mailing list Speakup@braille.uwo.ca http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: If bash can, why not Speakup? ` Albert Sten-Clanton @ ` Steve Holmes ` Gregory Nowak ` Janina Sajka ` Speech on vim backspace [Was: If bash can, why not Speakup?] Janina Sajka 1 sibling, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Steve Holmes @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup I realize the more this gets talked about, the more diluted it probably becomes. When I insert text with Vim or when I insert text in a command line in Bash, speakup speaks everything following in that line. I'm sure this is because screen contents are being changed ans speakup reflects this. However, The old vi editor (probably elvis or something) doesn't seem to exhibit this behavior but vim does. I usually have cursoring on when I do this. I don't remember if this changes when it is turned off. Another thing that would help speakup behave better with curses type applications would be to add support for user defined windows where parts of the screen could be spoken or blocked. This would be like what is available in Vocal-Eyes and Window-Eyes for that matter. This is obviously a big project and I think it would be fun to add but not sure how well that would work in a kernel based program. On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 07:48:38PM -0500, Albert Sten-Clanton wrote: > In addition to the suggestion below, I'd very much like to hear the > characters I'm backspacing over. I asked about this a few years ago, but I > gathered that this wasn't easy to do. Any thoughts? > > Al > > -----Original Message----- > From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca] > On Behalf Of William Hubbs > Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 6:31 PM > To: speakup@braille.uwo.ca > Subject: Re: If bash can, why not Speakup? > > On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 09:23:29AM +1000, pj@pjb.com.au wrote: > > Janina Sajka wrote: > > > I've been happily using vim for years. > > > > How do you cope with the endlessly-updating bottom line?, like: > > "497L, 15593C 450,2 93%" > > > > I find speakup is in general difficult with curses applications > > because of their screen-update optimisation. The characters don't > > necessarily come out in a text-related order. > > You can disable that line by putting the following line in your > ~/.vimrc: > > set noruler > > > > My biggest complaint is that I need to be ultra-careful to track > > > whether I'm in insert or command mode, i.e. it would sure help if > > > Speakup could give me a differently pitched voice > > > > Good point :-) It might need some help from the vim folk... > > Yes, something like this would take modifications to vim to make it > communicate to speakup some how, and I'm not sure what that would involve > since I haven't looked at the vim code at all. > > William > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: If bash can, why not Speakup? ` Steve Holmes @ ` Gregory Nowak ` Steve Holmes ` Janina Sajka 1 sibling, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Gregory Nowak @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 06:18:17PM -0700, Steve Holmes wrote: > Another thing that would help speakup behave better with curses type > applications would be to add support for user defined windows where > parts of the screen could be spoken or blocked. This would be like > what is available in Vocal-Eyes and Window-Eyes for that matter. This > is obviously a big project and I think it would be fun to add but not > sure how well that would work in a kernel based program. Uhhm, I thought we already had this, section 15 of the user's guide. Greg - -- web site: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org gpg public key: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org/pubkey.asc skype: gregn1 (authorization required, add me to your contacts list first) - -- Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkzkhmsACgkQ7s9z/XlyUyAcQwCaAnNbDdpMG9sqIeB6PU8zCGih ORgAoLSSMgoPXhqdNgYePMDhT7UwWwL8 =GR9+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: If bash can, why not Speakup? ` Gregory Nowak @ ` Steve Holmes ` Gregory Nowak 0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Steve Holmes @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 06:50:35PM -0700, Gregory Nowak wrote: > Uhhm, I thought we already had this, section 15 of the user's guide. I'll have to take look to see if there's anything more than I know about already. What I know of is a single user window that can be defined on the fly to be spoken but I don't recall if that can be used to block output. Also, this window cannot be saved for future use. I would like to see some day , the ability to save this and maybe other windows and load them on demand when a given application is run. I was thinking of maybe saving these window cordinates in a /sys/variable along withother speakup parameters and then a shell script could be used to load/save these stored values. I wonder how hard it would be to add new /sys/accessibility/speakup parameters for something like this. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: If bash can, why not Speakup? ` Steve Holmes @ ` Gregory Nowak 0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Gregory Nowak @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 07:02:18PM -0700, Steve Holmes wrote: > What I know of is a single user window that can be > defined on the fly to be spoken but I don't recall if that can be used > to block output. Also, this window cannot be saved for future use. I > would like to see some day , the ability to save this and maybe other > windows and load them on demand when a given application is run. I > was thinking of maybe saving these window cordinates in a > /sys/variable along withother speakup parameters and then a shell > script could be used to load/save these stored values. I wonder how > hard it would be to add new /sys/accessibility/speakup parameters for > something like this. Ah, you're right, the window functionality in speakup isn't as powerful as that in wineyes for example. When you mentioned window functionality as good as that in wineyes, or vocal-eyes, I immediately thought of being able to have only certain parts of the screen spoken, but forgot about all the rest of it, which you pointed out. Greg - -- web site: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org gpg public key: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org/pubkey.asc skype: gregn1 (authorization required, add me to your contacts list first) - -- Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkzkz3QACgkQ7s9z/XlyUyB0qwCgvxrER/8szL4RILmry2TO//Tl +ZAAoL5tQqgy0xbGkl4S0ojYx18RXUWa =+Pe0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: If bash can, why not Speakup? ` Steve Holmes ` Gregory Nowak @ ` Janina Sajka 1 sibling, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Janina Sajka @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. Steve, that would sure drive me crazy. In fact I doubt I'd be willing to live with it. All I can tell you is that it ain't happenin to me. I was having an issue in vim where Speakup would read the char I left plus the new char I had just written, but this wnet away entirely when I switched back to iso 8859-1. Janina Steve Holmes writes: > I realize the more this gets talked about, the more diluted it > probably becomes. When I insert text with Vim or when I insert text in a command > line in Bash, speakup speaks everything following in that line. I'm > sure this is because screen contents are being changed ans speakup > reflects this. However, The old vi editor (probably elvis or > something) doesn't seem to exhibit this behavior but vim does. I > usually have cursoring on when I do this. I don't remember if this > changes when it is turned off. > > Another thing that would help speakup behave better with curses type > applications would be to add support for user defined windows where > parts of the screen could be spoken or blocked. This would be like > what is available in Vocal-Eyes and Window-Eyes for that matter. This > is obviously a big project and I think it would be fun to add but not > sure how well that would work in a kernel based program. > > On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 07:48:38PM -0500, Albert Sten-Clanton wrote: > > In addition to the suggestion below, I'd very much like to hear the > > characters I'm backspacing over. I asked about this a few years ago, but I > > gathered that this wasn't easy to do. Any thoughts? > > > > Al > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca] > > On Behalf Of William Hubbs > > Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 6:31 PM > > To: speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > Subject: Re: If bash can, why not Speakup? > > > > On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 09:23:29AM +1000, pj@pjb.com.au wrote: > > > Janina Sajka wrote: > > > > I've been happily using vim for years. > > > > > > How do you cope with the endlessly-updating bottom line?, like: > > > "497L, 15593C 450,2 93%" > > > > > > I find speakup is in general difficult with curses applications > > > because of their screen-update optimisation. The characters don't > > > necessarily come out in a text-related order. > > > > You can disable that line by putting the following line in your > > ~/.vimrc: > > > > set noruler > > > > > > My biggest complaint is that I need to be ultra-careful to track > > > > whether I'm in insert or command mode, i.e. it would sure help if > > > > Speakup could give me a differently pitched voice > > > > > > Good point :-) It might need some help from the vim folk... > > > > Yes, something like this would take modifications to vim to make it > > communicate to speakup some how, and I'm not sure what that would involve > > since I haven't looked at the vim code at all. > > > > William > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup -- Janina Sajka, Phone: +1.443.300.2200 sip:janina@asterisk.rednote.net Chair, Open Accessibility janina@a11y.org Linux Foundation http://a11y.org Chair, Protocols & Formats Web Accessibility Initiative http://www.w3.org/wai/pf World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Speech on vim backspace [Was: If bash can, why not Speakup?] ` Albert Sten-Clanton ` Steve Holmes @ ` Janina Sajka ` Albert Sten-Clanton 1 sibling, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Janina Sajka @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. Albert Sten-Clanton writes: > In addition to the suggestion below, I'd very much like to hear the > characters I'm backspacing over. I asked about this a few years ago, but I > gathered that this wasn't easy to do. Any thoughts? I have speech on backspace in vim, at least I do in insert mode. You may need to set your charset to iso 8859-1 in your .vimrc. I don't recall specifically whether this problem is solved, but other nasties are solved this way. I'd love to use utf, but it isn't speaking as cleanly as 8859-1. Janina ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* RE: Speech on vim backspace [Was: If bash can, why not Speakup?] ` Speech on vim backspace [Was: If bash can, why not Speakup?] Janina Sajka @ ` Albert Sten-Clanton 0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Albert Sten-Clanton @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: 'Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.' Thanks, Janina. Al -----Original Message----- From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca] On Behalf Of Janina Sajka Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 3:32 PM To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. Subject: Speech on vim backspace [Was: If bash can, why not Speakup?] Albert Sten-Clanton writes: > In addition to the suggestion below, I'd very much like to hear the > characters I'm backspacing over. I asked about this a few years ago, > but I gathered that this wasn't easy to do. Any thoughts? I have speech on backspace in vim, at least I do in insert mode. You may need to set your charset to iso 8859-1 in your .vimrc. I don't recall specifically whether this problem is solved, but other nasties are solved this way. I'd love to use utf, but it isn't speaking as cleanly as 8859-1. Janina _______________________________________________ Speakup mailing list Speakup@braille.uwo.ca http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: If bash can, why not Speakup? ` William Hubbs ` Albert Sten-Clanton @ ` Janina Sajka ` Rynhardt Kruger ` William Hubbs 1 sibling, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Janina Sajka @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup I think my main point got lost in the litany of vim complaints that have actually been with us for a long time. I was trying to say something new that no one has commented on. So, let me try to redirect, if I may ... William Hubbs writes: > On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 09:23:29AM +1000, pj@pjb.com.au wrote: > > Janina Sajka wrote: > > > My biggest complaint is that I need to be ultra-careful to > > > track whether I'm in insert or command mode, i.e. it would > > > sure help if Speakup could give me a differently pitched voice > > > > Good point :-) It might need some help from the vim folk... > > Yes, something like this would take modifications to vim to make it > communicate to speakup some how, and I'm not sure what that would > involve since I haven't looked at the vim code at all. > Actually, I don't think we need anything from vim. Note that you can have either vim or emacs editing of bash commands. Emacs is the default, but you can reset this by issuing: set -o vim By, default, this provides bash shell command editing in insert mode. As in vim, pressing Esc takes you into command mode where all the vim command mode functionality is provided. So, the shell knows. That's got to be a value that's written somewhere, and thus something Speakup could read and respond to. I don't know where, but am I wrong? Janina > William > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup -- Janina Sajka, Phone: +1.443.300.2200 sip:janina@asterisk.rednote.net Chair, Open Accessibility janina@a11y.org Linux Foundation http://a11y.org Chair, Protocols & Formats Web Accessibility Initiative http://www.w3.org/wai/pf World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: If bash can, why not Speakup? ` If bash can, why not Speakup? Janina Sajka @ ` Rynhardt Kruger ` William Hubbs 1 sibling, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Rynhardt Kruger @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. I may be wrong, but I think that the vim editing style of bash isn't really the vim editor, but just a vim-like mode provided by readline. For instance, pressing the colon (:) while in bash vim-style command-mode, doesn't allow you to enter a vim command, but just beeps at you. So I think it's probably just a boolean value in the readline library itself which indicates to the shell whether you are in insert or command mode. Take care, Rynhardt * Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net> [101118 22:31]: > I think my main point got lost in the litany of vim complaints that have > actually been with us for a long time. I was trying to say something new > that no one has commented on. So, let me try to redirect, if I may ... > > William Hubbs writes: > > On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 09:23:29AM +1000, pj@pjb.com.au wrote: > > > Janina Sajka wrote: > > > > My biggest complaint is that I need to be ultra-careful to > > > > track whether I'm in insert or command mode, i.e. it would > > > > sure help if Speakup could give me a differently pitched voice > > > > > > Good point :-) It might need some help from the vim folk... > > > > Yes, something like this would take modifications to vim to make it > > communicate to speakup some how, and I'm not sure what that would > > involve since I haven't looked at the vim code at all. > > > Actually, I don't think we need anything from vim. > > > Note that you can have either vim or emacs editing of bash commands. > Emacs is the default, but you can reset this by issuing: > > set -o vim > > By, default, this provides bash shell command editing in insert mode. As > in vim, pressing Esc takes you into command mode where all the vim > command mode functionality is provided. > > So, the shell knows. That's got to be a value that's written somewhere, > and thus something Speakup could read and respond to. I don't know > where, but am I wrong? > > Janina > > > William > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > -- > > Janina Sajka, Phone: +1.443.300.2200 > sip:janina@asterisk.rednote.net > > Chair, Open Accessibility janina@a11y.org > Linux Foundation http://a11y.org > > Chair, Protocols & Formats > Web Accessibility Initiative http://www.w3.org/wai/pf > World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: If bash can, why not Speakup? ` If bash can, why not Speakup? Janina Sajka ` Rynhardt Kruger @ ` William Hubbs 1 sibling, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: William Hubbs @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Hi Janina, On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 03:27:18PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote: > Note that you can have either vim or emacs editing of bash commands. > Emacs is the default, but you can reset this by issuing: > > set -o vim > > By, default, this provides bash shell command editing in insert mode. As > in vim, pressing Esc takes you into command mode where all the vim > command mode functionality is provided. > > So, the shell knows. That's got to be a value that's written somewhere, > and thus something Speakup could read and respond to. I don't know > where, but am I wrong? There probably is a value for this written somewhere, but it is just in a memory location that bash knows about. That is why you have to put the command to set it up in your .bashrc file or some similar startup file if you want this setting by default. Since speakup is in the kernel, it doesn't have an easy way to keep track of which programs are running in user space or where they are stored in memory, so there isn't a way that I know of to program speakup itself to do something like what you are asking. The closest approximation of something like this would be to write a patch for bash which makes it aware of speakup and has it write values to the /sys/accessibility/speakup files to change the pitch, etc. However, that has its own issues, for example, if I'm running multiple instances of bash (say on several consoles), itwould be very easy to confuse the settings by switching consoles, etc. Does this make sense? William ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
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If bash can, why not Speakup? pj
` William Hubbs
` Albert Sten-Clanton
` Steve Holmes
` Gregory Nowak
` Steve Holmes
` Gregory Nowak
` Janina Sajka
` Speech on vim backspace [Was: If bash can, why not Speakup?] Janina Sajka
` Albert Sten-Clanton
` If bash can, why not Speakup? Janina Sajka
` Rynhardt Kruger
` William Hubbs
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