Re: If bash can, why not Speakup?

Re: If bash can, why not Speakup?

[pj]

Janina Sajka wrote:
> I've been happily using vim for years.

How do you cope with the endlessly-updating bottom line?, like:
 "497L, 15593C                             450,2         93%"

I find speakup is in general difficult with curses applications
because of their screen-update optimisation.  The characters
don't necessarily come out in a text-related order.

> My biggest complaint is that I need to be ultra-careful to
> track whether I'm in insert or command mode, i.e. it would
> sure help if Speakup could give me a differently pitched voice

Good point :-)  It might need some help from the vim folk...

Peter Billam

http://www.pjb.com.au       pj@pjb.com.au      (03) 6278 9410
"Was der Meister nicht kann,   vermöcht es der Knabe, hätt er
 ihm immer gehorcht?"   Siegfried to Mime, from Act 1 Scene 2

Re: If bash can, why not Speakup?

[William Hubbs]

On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 09:23:29AM +1000, pj@pjb.com.au wrote:
> Janina Sajka wrote:
> > I've been happily using vim for years.
> 
> How do you cope with the endlessly-updating bottom line?, like:
>  "497L, 15593C                             450,2         93%"
> 
> I find speakup is in general difficult with curses applications
> because of their screen-update optimisation.  The characters
> don't necessarily come out in a text-related order.

You can disable that line by putting the following line in your
~/.vimrc:

set noruler

> > My biggest complaint is that I need to be ultra-careful to
> > track whether I'm in insert or command mode, i.e. it would
> > sure help if Speakup could give me a differently pitched voice
> 
> Good point :-)  It might need some help from the vim folk...

Yes, something like this would take modifications to vim to make it
communicate to speakup some how, and I'm not sure what that would
involve since I haven't looked at the vim code at all.

William

RE: If bash can, why not Speakup?

[Albert Sten-Clanton]

In addition to the suggestion below, I'd very much like to hear the
characters I'm backspacing over.  I asked about this a few years ago, but I
gathered that this wasn't easy to do.  Any thoughts?

Al 

-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of William Hubbs
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 6:31 PM
To: speakup@braille.uwo.ca
Subject: Re: If bash can, why not Speakup?

On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 09:23:29AM +1000, pj@pjb.com.au wrote:
> Janina Sajka wrote:
> > I've been happily using vim for years.
> 
> How do you cope with the endlessly-updating bottom line?, like:
>  "497L, 15593C                             450,2         93%"
> 
> I find speakup is in general difficult with curses applications 
> because of their screen-update optimisation.  The characters don't 
> necessarily come out in a text-related order.

You can disable that line by putting the following line in your
~/.vimrc:

set noruler

> > My biggest complaint is that I need to be ultra-careful to track 
> > whether I'm in insert or command mode, i.e. it would sure help if 
> > Speakup could give me a differently pitched voice
> 
> Good point :-)  It might need some help from the vim folk...

Yes, something like this would take modifications to vim to make it
communicate to speakup some how, and I'm not sure what that would involve
since I haven't looked at the vim code at all.

William

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: If bash can, why not Speakup?

[Steve Holmes]

I realize the more this gets talked about, the more diluted it
probably becomes.  When I insert text with Vim or when I insert text in a command
line in Bash, speakup speaks everything following in that line.  I'm
sure this is because screen contents are being changed ans speakup
reflects this.  However, The old vi editor (probably elvis or
something) doesn't seem to exhibit this behavior but vim does.  I
usually have cursoring on when I do this.  I don't remember if this
changes when it is turned off.

Another thing that would help speakup behave better with curses type
applications would be to add support for user defined windows where
parts of the screen could be spoken or blocked.  This would be like
what is available in Vocal-Eyes and Window-Eyes for that matter.  This
is obviously a big project and I think it would be fun to add but not
sure how well that would work in a kernel based program.

On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 07:48:38PM -0500, Albert Sten-Clanton wrote:
> In addition to the suggestion below, I'd very much like to hear the
> characters I'm backspacing over.  I asked about this a few years ago, but I
> gathered that this wasn't easy to do.  Any thoughts?
> 
> Al 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
> On Behalf Of William Hubbs
> Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 6:31 PM
> To: speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> Subject: Re: If bash can, why not Speakup?
> 
> On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 09:23:29AM +1000, pj@pjb.com.au wrote:
> > Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > I've been happily using vim for years.
> > 
> > How do you cope with the endlessly-updating bottom line?, like:
> >  "497L, 15593C                             450,2         93%"
> > 
> > I find speakup is in general difficult with curses applications 
> > because of their screen-update optimisation.  The characters don't 
> > necessarily come out in a text-related order.
> 
> You can disable that line by putting the following line in your
> ~/.vimrc:
> 
> set noruler
> 
> > > My biggest complaint is that I need to be ultra-careful to track 
> > > whether I'm in insert or command mode, i.e. it would sure help if 
> > > Speakup could give me a differently pitched voice
> > 
> > Good point :-)  It might need some help from the vim folk...
> 
> Yes, something like this would take modifications to vim to make it
> communicate to speakup some how, and I'm not sure what that would involve
> since I haven't looked at the vim code at all.
> 
> William
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: If bash can, why not Speakup?

[Gregory Nowak]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 06:18:17PM -0700, Steve Holmes wrote:
> Another thing that would help speakup behave better with curses type
> applications would be to add support for user defined windows where
> parts of the screen could be spoken or blocked.  This would be like
> what is available in Vocal-Eyes and Window-Eyes for that matter.  This
> is obviously a big project and I think it would be fun to add but not
> sure how well that would work in a kernel based program.

Uhhm, I thought we already had this, section 15 of the user's guide.

Greg


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Re: If bash can, why not Speakup?

[Steve Holmes]

On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 06:50:35PM -0700, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> Uhhm, I thought we already had this, section 15 of the user's guide.

I'll have to take look to see if there's anything more than I know
about already.  What I know of is a single user window that can be
defined on the fly to be spoken but I don't recall if that can be used
to block output.  Also, this window cannot be saved for future use.  I
would like to see some day , the ability to save this and maybe other
windows and load them on demand when a given application is run.  I
was thinking of maybe saving these window cordinates in a
/sys/variable along withother speakup parameters and then a shell
script could be used to load/save these stored values.  I wonder how
hard it would be to add new /sys/accessibility/speakup parameters for
something like this.

Re: If bash can, why not Speakup?

[Gregory Nowak]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 07:02:18PM -0700, Steve Holmes wrote:
> What I know of is a single user window that can be
> defined on the fly to be spoken but I don't recall if that can be used
> to block output.  Also, this window cannot be saved for future use.  I
> would like to see some day , the ability to save this and maybe other
> windows and load them on demand when a given application is run.  I
> was thinking of maybe saving these window cordinates in a
> /sys/variable along withother speakup parameters and then a shell
> script could be used to load/save these stored values.  I wonder how
> hard it would be to add new /sys/accessibility/speakup parameters for
> something like this.

Ah, you're right, the window functionality in speakup isn't as
powerful as that in wineyes for example. When you mentioned window
functionality as good as that in wineyes, or vocal-eyes, I immediately
thought of being able to have only certain parts of the screen spoken,
but forgot about all the rest of it, which you pointed out.

Greg


- -- 
web site: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org
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Re: If bash can, why not Speakup?

[Janina Sajka]

I think my main point got lost in the litany of vim complaints that have
actually been with us for a long time. I was trying to say something new
that no one has commented on. So, let me try to redirect, if I may ...

William Hubbs writes:
> On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 09:23:29AM +1000, pj@pjb.com.au wrote:
> > Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > My biggest complaint is that I need to be ultra-careful to
> > > track whether I'm in insert or command mode, i.e. it would
> > > sure help if Speakup could give me a differently pitched voice
> > 
> > Good point :-)  It might need some help from the vim folk...
> 
> Yes, something like this would take modifications to vim to make it
> communicate to speakup some how, and I'm not sure what that would
> involve since I haven't looked at the vim code at all.
> 
Actually, I don't think we need anything from vim.


Note that you can have either vim or emacs editing of bash commands.
Emacs is the default, but you can reset this by issuing:

set -o vim

By, default, this provides bash shell command editing in insert mode. As
in vim, pressing Esc takes you into command mode where all the vim
command mode functionality is provided.

So, the shell knows. That's got to be a value that's written somewhere,
and thus something Speakup could read and respond to. I don't know
where, but am I wrong?

Janina

> William
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 

Janina Sajka,	Phone:	+1.443.300.2200
		sip:janina@asterisk.rednote.net

Chair, Open Accessibility	janina@a11y.org	
Linux Foundation		http://a11y.org

Chair, Protocols & Formats
Web Accessibility Initiative	http://www.w3.org/wai/pf
World Wide Web Consortium (W3C)

Speech on vim backspace [Was: If bash can, why not Speakup?]

[Janina Sajka]

Albert Sten-Clanton writes:
> In addition to the suggestion below, I'd very much like to hear the
> characters I'm backspacing over.  I asked about this a few years ago, but I
> gathered that this wasn't easy to do.  Any thoughts?


I have speech on backspace in vim, at least I do in insert mode.

You may need to set your charset to iso 8859-1 in your .vimrc. I don't
recall specifically whether this problem is solved, but other nasties
are solved this way. I'd love to use utf, but it isn't speaking as
cleanly as 8859-1.

Janina

Re: If bash can, why not Speakup?

[Janina Sajka]

Steve, that would sure drive me crazy. In fact I doubt I'd be willing to
live with it.

All I can tell you is that it ain't happenin to me. I was having an
issue in vim where Speakup would read the char I left plus the new char
I had just written, but this wnet away entirely when I switched back to
iso 8859-1.


Janina

Steve Holmes writes:
> I realize the more this gets talked about, the more diluted it
> probably becomes.  When I insert text with Vim or when I insert text in a command
> line in Bash, speakup speaks everything following in that line.  I'm
> sure this is because screen contents are being changed ans speakup
> reflects this.  However, The old vi editor (probably elvis or
> something) doesn't seem to exhibit this behavior but vim does.  I
> usually have cursoring on when I do this.  I don't remember if this
> changes when it is turned off.
> 
> Another thing that would help speakup behave better with curses type
> applications would be to add support for user defined windows where
> parts of the screen could be spoken or blocked.  This would be like
> what is available in Vocal-Eyes and Window-Eyes for that matter.  This
> is obviously a big project and I think it would be fun to add but not
> sure how well that would work in a kernel based program.
> 
> On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 07:48:38PM -0500, Albert Sten-Clanton wrote:
> > In addition to the suggestion below, I'd very much like to hear the
> > characters I'm backspacing over.  I asked about this a few years ago, but I
> > gathered that this wasn't easy to do.  Any thoughts?
> > 
> > Al 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
> > On Behalf Of William Hubbs
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 6:31 PM
> > To: speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > Subject: Re: If bash can, why not Speakup?
> > 
> > On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 09:23:29AM +1000, pj@pjb.com.au wrote:
> > > Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > > I've been happily using vim for years.
> > > 
> > > How do you cope with the endlessly-updating bottom line?, like:
> > >  "497L, 15593C                             450,2         93%"
> > > 
> > > I find speakup is in general difficult with curses applications 
> > > because of their screen-update optimisation.  The characters don't 
> > > necessarily come out in a text-related order.
> > 
> > You can disable that line by putting the following line in your
> > ~/.vimrc:
> > 
> > set noruler
> > 
> > > > My biggest complaint is that I need to be ultra-careful to track 
> > > > whether I'm in insert or command mode, i.e. it would sure help if 
> > > > Speakup could give me a differently pitched voice
> > > 
> > > Good point :-)  It might need some help from the vim folk...
> > 
> > Yes, something like this would take modifications to vim to make it
> > communicate to speakup some how, and I'm not sure what that would involve
> > since I haven't looked at the vim code at all.
> > 
> > William
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 

Janina Sajka,	Phone:	+1.443.300.2200
		sip:janina@asterisk.rednote.net

Chair, Open Accessibility	janina@a11y.org	
Linux Foundation		http://a11y.org

Chair, Protocols & Formats
Web Accessibility Initiative	http://www.w3.org/wai/pf
World Wide Web Consortium (W3C)

Re: If bash can, why not Speakup?

[Rynhardt Kruger]

I may be wrong, but I think that the vim editing style of bash isn't really the vim editor, but just a vim-like mode 
provided by readline. For instance, pressing the colon (:) while in bash vim-style command-mode, doesn't allow you to 
enter a vim command, but just beeps at you. So I think it's probably just a boolean value in the readline library itself 
which indicates to the shell whether you are in insert or command mode.

Take care,

Rynhardt

* Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net> [101118 22:31]:
> I think my main point got lost in the litany of vim complaints that have
> actually been with us for a long time. I was trying to say something new
> that no one has commented on. So, let me try to redirect, if I may ...
> 
> William Hubbs writes:
> > On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 09:23:29AM +1000, pj@pjb.com.au wrote:
> > > Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > > My biggest complaint is that I need to be ultra-careful to
> > > > track whether I'm in insert or command mode, i.e. it would
> > > > sure help if Speakup could give me a differently pitched voice
> > > 
> > > Good point :-)  It might need some help from the vim folk...
> > 
> > Yes, something like this would take modifications to vim to make it
> > communicate to speakup some how, and I'm not sure what that would
> > involve since I haven't looked at the vim code at all.
> > 
> Actually, I don't think we need anything from vim.
> 
> 
> Note that you can have either vim or emacs editing of bash commands.
> Emacs is the default, but you can reset this by issuing:
> 
> set -o vim
> 
> By, default, this provides bash shell command editing in insert mode. As
> in vim, pressing Esc takes you into command mode where all the vim
> command mode functionality is provided.
> 
> So, the shell knows. That's got to be a value that's written somewhere,
> and thus something Speakup could read and respond to. I don't know
> where, but am I wrong?
> 
> Janina
> 
> > William
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> -- 
> 
> Janina Sajka,	Phone:	+1.443.300.2200
> 		sip:janina@asterisk.rednote.net
> 
> Chair, Open Accessibility	janina@a11y.org	
> Linux Foundation		http://a11y.org
> 
> Chair, Protocols & Formats
> Web Accessibility Initiative	http://www.w3.org/wai/pf
> World Wide Web Consortium (W3C)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: If bash can, why not Speakup?

[William Hubbs]

Hi Janina,

On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 03:27:18PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> Note that you can have either vim or emacs editing of bash commands.
> Emacs is the default, but you can reset this by issuing:
> 
> set -o vim
> 
> By, default, this provides bash shell command editing in insert mode. As
> in vim, pressing Esc takes you into command mode where all the vim
> command mode functionality is provided.
> 
> So, the shell knows. That's got to be a value that's written somewhere,
> and thus something Speakup could read and respond to. I don't know
> where, but am I wrong?

There probably is a value for this written somewhere, but it is just in
a memory location that bash knows about. That is why you have to put the
command to set it up in your .bashrc file or some similar startup file
if you want this setting by default.

Since speakup is in the kernel, it doesn't have an easy way to keep
track of which programs are running in user space or where they are
stored in memory, so there isn't a way that I know of to program speakup
itself to do something like what you are asking.

The closest approximation of something like this would be to write a
patch for bash which makes it aware of speakup and has it write values
to the /sys/accessibility/speakup files to change the pitch, etc.
However, that has its own issues, for example, if I'm running multiple
instances of bash (say on several consoles), itwould be very easy to
confuse the settings by switching consoles, etc.

Does this make sense?

William

RE: Speech on vim backspace [Was: If bash can, why not Speakup?]

[Albert Sten-Clanton]

Thanks, Janina. 

Al 

-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of Janina Sajka
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 3:32 PM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Speech on vim backspace [Was: If bash can, why not Speakup?]

Albert Sten-Clanton writes:
> In addition to the suggestion below, I'd very much like to hear the 
> characters I'm backspacing over.  I asked about this a few years ago, 
> but I gathered that this wasn't easy to do.  Any thoughts?


I have speech on backspace in vim, at least I do in insert mode.

You may need to set your charset to iso 8859-1 in your .vimrc. I don't
recall specifically whether this problem is solved, but other nasties are
solved this way. I'd love to use utf, but it isn't speaking as cleanly as
8859-1.

Janina
_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup