Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux

Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux

[Kenny Hitt]

Hi.

If you find such a browser, let me know.  Mozilla accessibility isn't
there yet.

Hope this helps.
          Kenny

On Wed, Jun 08, 2005 at 01:30:13PM -0400, Jared wrote:
> I have to do some testing for section 508 compliance on a product at the company I work for. I know I will be using internet explorer under windows. This product is supposed to be cross platform, is there any browser that's accessible enough to test under linux which works under x-windows? Appreciate any info.
> 
> --
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Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux

[David Poehlman]

how about safari under mac?

--  
Jonnie Apple Seed
With His:
Hands-On Technolog(eye)s


On Jun 8, 2005, at 1:22 PM, Kenny Hitt wrote:

Hi.

If you find such a browser, let me know.  Mozilla accessibility isn't
there yet.

Hope this helps.
           Kenny

On Wed, Jun 08, 2005 at 01:30:13PM -0400, Jared wrote:

> I have to do some testing for section 508 compliance on a product  
> at the company I work for. I know I will be using internet explorer  
> under windows. This product is supposed to be cross platform, is  
> there any browser that's accessible enough to test under linux  
> which works under x-windows? Appreciate any info.
>
> --
> This message was sent using 3wmail.
> Your fast free POP3 mail client at www.3wmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

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Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux

[Sean McMahon]

Why can't you test complience with a text-based browser.  I'm sure if something
works in lynx, it would be complient right?
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jared" <jared-stofflett@pop-server.twmi.rr.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 10:30 AM
Subject: web browsing and section 508 under linux


I have to do some testing for section 508 compliance on a product at the company
I work for. I know I will be using internet explorer under windows. This product
is supposed to be cross platform, is there any browser that's accessible enough
to test under linux which works under x-windows? Appreciate any info.

--
This message was sent using 3wmail.
Your fast free POP3 mail client at www.3wmail.com

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web browsing and section 508 under linux

[Jared]

I have to do some testing for section 508 compliance on a product at the company I work for. I know I will be using internet explorer under windows. This product is supposed to be cross platform, is there any browser that's accessible enough to test under linux which works under x-windows? Appreciate any info.

--
This message was sent using 3wmail.
Your fast free POP3 mail client at www.3wmail.com

Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux

[Ryan Mann]

For an accessible web browser that works under Xwindows, you 
might want to look at Freedombox.  It uses Mozilla for web 
browsing.  I've used it under Linux and it works pretty 
well.  Their web site is http://www.freedombox.info or 
http://linux.freedombox.info.


On Wed, 8 Jun 2005, Jared wrote:

> I have to do some testing for section 508 compliance on a product at the company I work for. I know I will be using internet explorer under windows. This product is supposed to be cross platform, is there any browser that's accessible enough to test under linux which works under x-windows? Appreciate any info.
>
> --
> This message was sent using 3wmail.
> Your fast free POP3 mail client at www.3wmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux

[Ryan Mann]

Lynx is limitted in functionality.  For example, there is no 
support for Javascript.


On Wed, 8 Jun 2005, Sean McMahon wrote:

> Why can't you test complience with a text-based browser.  I'm sure if something
> works in lynx, it would be complient right?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jared" <jared-stofflett@pop-server.twmi.rr.com>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 10:30 AM
> Subject: web browsing and section 508 under linux
>
>
> I have to do some testing for section 508 compliance on a product at the company
> I work for. I know I will be using internet explorer under windows. This product
> is supposed to be cross platform, is there any browser that's accessible enough
> to test under linux which works under x-windows? Appreciate any info.
>
> --
> This message was sent using 3wmail.
> Your fast free POP3 mail client at www.3wmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux

[Karen Lewellen]

However,
  links, does have javascript abilities.


On Wed, 8 Jun 2005, Ryan Mann wrote:

>
> Lynx is limitted in functionality.  For example, there is no support for 
> Javascript.
>
>
> On Wed, 8 Jun 2005, Sean McMahon wrote:
>
>>  Why can't you test complience with a text-based browser.  I'm sure if
>>  something
>>  works in lynx, it would be complient right?
>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>  From: "Jared" <jared-stofflett@pop-server.twmi.rr.com>
>>  To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>  Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 10:30 AM
>>  Subject: web browsing and section 508 under linux
>> 
>>
>>  I have to do some testing for section 508 compliance on a product at the
>>  company
>>  I work for. I know I will be using internet explorer under windows. This
>>  product
>>  is supposed to be cross platform, is there any browser that's accessible
>>  enough
>>  to test under linux which works under x-windows? Appreciate any info.
>>
>>  --
>>  This message was sent using 3wmail.
>>  Your fast free POP3 mail client at www.3wmail.com
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  Speakup mailing list
>>  Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>  http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> 
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  Speakup mailing list
>>  Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>  http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> 
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux

[Glenn at home]

What about FireFox?
It works with JFW, but it is not easy to use since its not too good with 
tabbing, but it works with the Jaws cursor, if one can tolerate that.
Glenn

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ryan Mann" <rmann@rmisp.net>
To: "ajred" <jared-stofflett@twmi.rr.com>; "Speakup is a screen review 
system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux



For an accessible web browser that works under Xwindows, you
might want to look at Freedombox.  It uses Mozilla for web
browsing.  I've used it under Linux and it works pretty
well.  Their web site is http://www.freedombox.info or
http://linux.freedombox.info.


On Wed, 8 Jun 2005, Jared wrote:

> I have to do some testing for section 508 compliance on a product at the 
> company I work for. I know I will be using internet explorer under 
> windows. This product is supposed to be cross platform, is there any 
> browser that's accessible enough to test under linux which works under 
> x-windows? Appreciate any info.
>
> --
> This message was sent using 3wmail.
> Your fast free POP3 mail client at www.3wmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

_______________________________________________
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RE: web browsing and section 508 under linux

[Sina Bahram]

I would hardly call that an accessible web browser.

Take care,
Sina 

-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of David Poehlman
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 1:23 PM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux

how about safari under mac?

--
Jonnie Apple Seed
With His:
Hands-On Technolog(eye)s


On Jun 8, 2005, at 1:22 PM, Kenny Hitt wrote:

Hi.

If you find such a browser, let me know.  Mozilla accessibility isn't there
yet.

Hope this helps.
           Kenny

On Wed, Jun 08, 2005 at 01:30:13PM -0400, Jared wrote:

> I have to do some testing for section 508 compliance on a product at 
> the company I work for. I know I will be using internet explorer under 
> windows. This product is supposed to be cross platform, is there any 
> browser that's accessible enough to test under linux which works under 
> x-windows? Appreciate any info.
>
> --
> This message was sent using 3wmail.
> Your fast free POP3 mail client at www.3wmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

_______________________________________________
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Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
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Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
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RE: web browsing and section 508 under linux

[Sina Bahram]

But it doesn't work at all with accessibility related features.

You can't navigate by headers, read alt tags automatically, use forms
reliably, and so forth ...

Take care,
Sina

-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of Glenn at home
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 8:49 PM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux

What about FireFox?
It works with JFW, but it is not easy to use since its not too good with
tabbing, but it works with the Jaws cursor, if one can tolerate that.
Glenn

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Mann" <rmann@rmisp.net>
To: "ajred" <jared-stofflett@twmi.rr.com>; "Speakup is a screen review
system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux



For an accessible web browser that works under Xwindows, you might want to
look at Freedombox.  It uses Mozilla for web browsing.  I've used it under
Linux and it works pretty well.  Their web site is
http://www.freedombox.info or http://linux.freedombox.info.


On Wed, 8 Jun 2005, Jared wrote:

> I have to do some testing for section 508 compliance on a product at 
> the company I work for. I know I will be using internet explorer under 
> windows. This product is supposed to be cross platform, is there any 
> browser that's accessible enough to test under linux which works under 
> x-windows? Appreciate any info.
>
> --
> This message was sent using 3wmail.
> Your fast free POP3 mail client at www.3wmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

_______________________________________________
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Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux

[Buddy Brannan]

On Wed, Jun 08, 2005 at 10:29:04PM -0400, Sina Bahram wrote:
> I would hardly call that an accessible web browser.

Then clearly, you haven't used the latest version with OSX 10.4
Tiger. It actually works quite nicely, once you get the hang of the
philosophy behind Voiceover's controls. (Of course, this isn't a
relevant topic to this list, but I encourage you to visit
http://www.macvisionaries.com anyway.) 

Buddy

RE: web browsing and section 508 under linux

[Sina Bahram]

Actually, I just installed Tiger on one of the multiple computers in the
office, two weeks ago, and I beta tested Tiger for a long while.

I would hardly call their attitude towards accessibility one that should be
admired, or a philosophy that should be imulated by anyone else.

I think that the immediate reaction of: ooo now macs can speak, is blinding
people to the quality of how and what.

But, I do agree: it's totally off topic, and I'll stop posting on it.

Take care,
Sina

-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of Buddy Brannan
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 11:09 PM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux

On Wed, Jun 08, 2005 at 10:29:04PM -0400, Sina Bahram wrote:
> I would hardly call that an accessible web browser.

Then clearly, you haven't used the latest version with OSX 10.4 Tiger. It
actually works quite nicely, once you get the hang of the philosophy behind
Voiceover's controls. (Of course, this isn't a relevant topic to this list,
but I encourage you to visit http://www.macvisionaries.com anyway.) 

Buddy

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Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux

[Cheryl Homiak]

Hmm, I don't think I have the attitude that "oo, now Mac can talk" and I 
am certainly not blind to vo's shortcomings. However, I'm extremely 
pleased with some of the things I'm able to do with it after only a week 
of work with it. I'm not discarding my linux tools but I'm certainly 
pleased to have it as yet another option.
I don't think there is any one browser out there that meets all of our 
needs and of course some of the issue is also with how websites are 
constructed. Until the day comes when I find something that really 
handles everything, I value all the tools I've found.



-- 
Cheryl

"Where your treasure is,
there will your heart be also."

RE: web browsing and section 508 under linux

[Sina Bahram]

Agreed, and I do also agree with your idea of the more tools, the better

Take care,
Sina

-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of Cheryl Homiak
Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 12:14 AM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux

Hmm, I don't think I have the attitude that "oo, now Mac can talk" and I am
certainly not blind to vo's shortcomings. However, I'm extremely pleased
with some of the things I'm able to do with it after only a week of work
with it. I'm not discarding my linux tools but I'm certainly pleased to have
it as yet another option.
I don't think there is any one browser out there that meets all of our needs
and of course some of the issue is also with how websites are constructed.
Until the day comes when I find something that really handles everything, I
value all the tools I've found.



--
Cheryl

"Where your treasure is,
there will your heart be also."

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Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
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Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux

[David Poehlman]

I have not found it to be inaccessible at all.  The accessibility  
features weere invented due to the inequities in screen readers, osx  
rewrites this paradigm.

-- 
Jonnie Apple Seed
With His:
Hands-On Technolog(eye)s


On Jun 8, 2005, at 10:43 PM, Sina Bahram wrote:

But it doesn't work at all with accessibility related features.

You can't navigate by headers, read alt tags automatically, use forms
reliably, and so forth ...

Take care,
Sina

-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup- 
bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of Glenn at home
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 8:49 PM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux

What about FireFox?
It works with JFW, but it is not easy to use since its not too good with
tabbing, but it works with the Jaws cursor, if one can tolerate that.
Glenn

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Mann" <rmann@rmisp.net>
To: "ajred" <jared-stofflett@twmi.rr.com>; "Speakup is a screen review
system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux



For an accessible web browser that works under Xwindows, you might  
want to
look at Freedombox.  It uses Mozilla for web browsing.  I've used it  
under
Linux and it works pretty well.  Their web site is
http://www.freedombox.info or http://linux.freedombox.info.


On Wed, 8 Jun 2005, Jared wrote:


> I have to do some testing for section 508 compliance on a product at
> the company I work for. I know I will be using internet explorer under
> windows. This product is supposed to be cross platform, is there any
> browser that's accessible enough to test under linux which works under
> x-windows? Appreciate any info.
>
> --
> This message was sent using 3wmail.
> Your fast free POP3 mail client at www.3wmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup



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Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
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Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux

[David Poehlman]

Infact, it is the most accessible web browser I have ever used and  
I've used plenty of them.

-- 
Jonnie Apple Seed
With His:
Hands-On Technolog(eye)s


On Jun 8, 2005, at 10:29 PM, Sina Bahram wrote:

I would hardly call that an accessible web browser.

Take care,
Sina

-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup- 
bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of David Poehlman
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 1:23 PM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux

how about safari under mac?

--
Jonnie Apple Seed
With His:
Hands-On Technolog(eye)s


On Jun 8, 2005, at 1:22 PM, Kenny Hitt wrote:

Hi.

If you find such a browser, let me know.  Mozilla accessibility isn't  
there
yet.

Hope this helps.
            Kenny

On Wed, Jun 08, 2005 at 01:30:13PM -0400, Jared wrote:


> I have to do some testing for section 508 compliance on a product at
> the company I work for. I know I will be using internet explorer under
> windows. This product is supposed to be cross platform, is there any
> browser that's accessible enough to test under linux which works under
> x-windows? Appreciate any info.
>
> --
> This message was sent using 3wmail.
> Your fast free POP3 mail client at www.3wmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

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Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
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Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
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Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux

[Karen Lewellen]

Yes,
It is my understanding firefox works wonderfully with window eyes.  Perhaps 
the problem is jfw?   it usually is where the problem lies, grin.
Karen

On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, David Poehlman wrote:

> I have not found it to be inaccessible at all.  The accessibility features 
> weere invented due to the inequities in screen readers, osx rewrites this 
> paradigm.
>
> -- 
> Jonnie Apple Seed
> With His:
> Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
>
>
> On Jun 8, 2005, at 10:43 PM, Sina Bahram wrote:
>
> But it doesn't work at all with accessibility related features.
>
> You can't navigate by headers, read alt tags automatically, use forms
> reliably, and so forth ...
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
> On Behalf Of Glenn at home
> Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 8:49 PM
> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> Subject: Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux
>
> What about FireFox?
> It works with JFW, but it is not easy to use since its not too good with
> tabbing, but it works with the Jaws cursor, if one can tolerate that.
> Glenn
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ryan Mann" <rmann@rmisp.net>
> To: "ajred" <jared-stofflett@twmi.rr.com>; "Speakup is a screen review
> system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 12:38 PM
> Subject: Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux
>
>
>
> For an accessible web browser that works under Xwindows, you might want to
> look at Freedombox.  It uses Mozilla for web browsing.  I've used it under
> Linux and it works pretty well.  Their web site is
> http://www.freedombox.info or http://linux.freedombox.info.
>
>
> On Wed, 8 Jun 2005, Jared wrote:
>
>
>> I have to do some testing for section 508 compliance on a product at
>> the company I work for. I know I will be using internet explorer under
>> windows. This product is supposed to be cross platform, is there any
>> browser that's accessible enough to test under linux which works under
>> x-windows? Appreciate any info.
>> 
>> --
>> This message was sent using 3wmail.
>> Your fast free POP3 mail client at www.3wmail.com
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> 
>> 
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux

[Karen Lewellen]

oops?
missed this one.
Indeed though in any case. mac in general and of course safari is 
beyond accessible.  can be obtained with a lot less money, and does not 
have the windows problems to boot.
Still accessibility is a very individual, not a generalized thing.  What 
is accessible for one may not be for someone else, as we all bring our 
individual skills strengths and weakness tot he table.
Karen

On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, David Poehlman wrote:

> Infact, it is the most accessible web browser I have ever used and I've used 
> plenty of them.
>
> -- 
> Jonnie Apple Seed
> With His:
> Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
>
>
> On Jun 8, 2005, at 10:29 PM, Sina Bahram wrote:
>
> I would hardly call that an accessible web browser.
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
> On Behalf Of David Poehlman
> Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 1:23 PM
> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> Subject: Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux
>
> how about safari under mac?
>
> --
> Jonnie Apple Seed
> With His:
> Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
>
>
> On Jun 8, 2005, at 1:22 PM, Kenny Hitt wrote:
>
> Hi.
>
> If you find such a browser, let me know.  Mozilla accessibility isn't there
> yet.
>
> Hope this helps.
>           Kenny
>
> On Wed, Jun 08, 2005 at 01:30:13PM -0400, Jared wrote:
>
>
>> I have to do some testing for section 508 compliance on a product at
>> the company I work for. I know I will be using internet explorer under
>> windows. This product is supposed to be cross platform, is there any
>> browser that's accessible enough to test under linux which works under
>> x-windows? Appreciate any info.
>> 
>> --
>> This message was sent using 3wmail.
>> Your fast free POP3 mail client at www.3wmail.com
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> 
>> 
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux

[David Poehlman]

It is my understanding that at some point, jaws and window eyes will  
support firefox.  It is also my understanding that a current beta of  
we works somewhat with window eyes.  The problem is that when you  
build a cross platform app to work with windows, it's hard to get  
things to work together.

-- 
Jonnie Apple Seed
With His:
Hands-On Technolog(eye)s


On Jun 9, 2005, at 8:51 AM, Karen Lewellen wrote:

Yes,
It is my understanding firefox works wonderfully with window eyes.   
Perhaps the problem is jfw?   it usually is where the problem lies,  
grin.
Karen

On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, David Poehlman wrote:


> I have not found it to be inaccessible at all.  The accessibility  
> features weere invented due to the inequities in screen readers,  
> osx rewrites this paradigm.
>
> -- 
> Jonnie Apple Seed
> With His:
> Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
>
>
> On Jun 8, 2005, at 10:43 PM, Sina Bahram wrote:
>
> But it doesn't work at all with accessibility related features.
>
> You can't navigate by headers, read alt tags automatically, use forms
> reliably, and so forth ...
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup- 
> bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
> On Behalf Of Glenn at home
> Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 8:49 PM
> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> Subject: Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux
>
> What about FireFox?
> It works with JFW, but it is not easy to use since its not too good  
> with
> tabbing, but it works with the Jaws cursor, if one can tolerate that.
> Glenn
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ryan Mann" <rmann@rmisp.net>
> To: "ajred" <jared-stofflett@twmi.rr.com>; "Speakup is a screen review
> system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 12:38 PM
> Subject: Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux
>
>
>
> For an accessible web browser that works under Xwindows, you might  
> want to
> look at Freedombox.  It uses Mozilla for web browsing.  I've used  
> it under
> Linux and it works pretty well.  Their web site is
> http://www.freedombox.info or http://linux.freedombox.info.
>
>
> On Wed, 8 Jun 2005, Jared wrote:
>
>
>
>> I have to do some testing for section 508 compliance on a product at
>> the company I work for. I know I will be using internet explorer  
>> under
>> windows. This product is supposed to be cross platform, is there any
>> browser that's accessible enough to test under linux which works  
>> under
>> x-windows? Appreciate any info.
>> --
>> This message was sent using 3wmail.
>> Your fast free POP3 mail client at www.3wmail.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux

[David Poehlman]

Ah,

There are standards by which you can measure accessibility and  
usability.  I draw on these standards in my responses to this type of  
question.  I have many years of experience in developping  and  
implementing tests including observational data by the ton.  I  
usually remain in the back ground but will speak out when a strongly  
opinionated incorrect statement is put forth because I feel that the  
facts should be given to the community.

Yes, There is personal preference and yes, there are many factors  
that need to be taken into account before a fit can be made for  
someone's needs especially if there are multiple barriers to consider  
but, no.  It is quite clear how to achieve what can be achieved.   
Apple have broken the bar on this.

Thanks!

-- 
Jonnie Apple Seed
With His:
Hands-On Technolog(eye)s

Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux

[Janina Sajka]

Jared writes:
> I have to do some testing for section 508 compliance on a product at the company I work for. I know I will be using internet explorer under windows. This product is supposed to be cross platform, is there any browser that's accessible enough to test under linux which works under x-windows? Appreciate any info.
> 
> --
> This message was sent using 3wmail.
> Your fast free POP3 mail client at www.3wmail.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
I wasn't aware that Sec. 508 only applied to graphical environments. Did
I miss something? Else, why would you be restricting compliance testing
that way?

-- 

Chair, Accessibility Workgroup		Free Standards Group (FSG)
janina@freestandards.org		http://a11y.org

Janina Sajka				Phone: +1.202.494.7040
Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC	http://www.CapitalAccessibility.Com

Bringing the Owasys 22C screenless cell phone to the U.S. and Canada. Go to http://www.ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more.

Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux

[Janina Sajka]

Ah, and maybe I missed something else? I don't recall Sec. 508 requires
js. My recollection of Sec. 508 regs is that any use of scripting is
supposed to degrade in an accessible manner if a script capable user
agent is in use.

Ryan Mann writes:
> 
> Lynx is limitted in functionality.  For example, there is no 
> support for Javascript.
> 
> 
> On Wed, 8 Jun 2005, Sean McMahon wrote:
> 
> >Why can't you test complience with a text-based browser.  I'm sure if 
> >something
> >works in lynx, it would be complient right?
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Jared" <jared-stofflett@pop-server.twmi.rr.com>
> >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> >Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 10:30 AM
> >Subject: web browsing and section 508 under linux
> >
> >
> >I have to do some testing for section 508 compliance on a product at the 
> >company
> >I work for. I know I will be using internet explorer under windows. This 
> >product
> >is supposed to be cross platform, is there any browser that's accessible 
> >enough
> >to test under linux which works under x-windows? Appreciate any info.
> >
> >--
> >This message was sent using 3wmail.
> >Your fast free POP3 mail client at www.3wmail.com
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 

Chair, Accessibility Workgroup		Free Standards Group (FSG)
janina@freestandards.org		http://a11y.org

Janina Sajka				Phone: +1.202.494.7040
Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC	http://www.CapitalAccessibility.Com

Bringing the Owasys 22C screenless cell phone to the U.S. and Canada. Go to http://www.ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more.

Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux

[David Poehlman]

I was told that it must have text in the script but that it does not  
have to support non js user agents.

-- 
Jonnie Apple Seed
With His:
Hands-On Technolog(eye)s


On Jun 9, 2005, at 7:27 PM, Janina Sajka wrote:

Ah, and maybe I missed something else? I don't recall Sec. 508 requires
js. My recollection of Sec. 508 regs is that any use of scripting is
supposed to degrade in an accessible manner if a script capable user
agent is in use.

Ryan Mann writes:

>
> Lynx is limitted in functionality.  For example, there is no
> support for Javascript.
>
>
> On Wed, 8 Jun 2005, Sean McMahon wrote:
>
>
>> Why can't you test complience with a text-based browser.  I'm sure if
>> something
>> works in lynx, it would be complient right?
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jared" <jared-stofflett@pop-server.twmi.rr.com>
>> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 10:30 AM
>> Subject: web browsing and section 508 under linux
>>
>>
>> I have to do some testing for section 508 compliance on a product  
>> at the
>> company
>> I work for. I know I will be using internet explorer under  
>> windows. This
>> product
>> is supposed to be cross platform, is there any browser that's  
>> accessible
>> enough
>> to test under linux which works under x-windows? Appreciate any info.
>>
>> --
>> This message was sent using 3wmail.
>> Your fast free POP3 mail client at www.3wmail.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

-- 

Chair, Accessibility Workgroup        Free Standards Group (FSG)
janina@freestandards.org        http://a11y.org

Janina Sajka                Phone: +1.202.494.7040
Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC    http:// 
www.CapitalAccessibility.Com

Bringing the Owasys 22C screenless cell phone to the U.S. and Canada.  
Go to http://www.ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more.


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux

[Karen Lewellen]

Wait,
That I want to see in writing.  Since when does the government dictate 
which scripting agents are to be used?  508 means basically ease of access 
which generally means non-graphical, as you cannot fully control the 
graphical structure.
If  people are being told that, it is time someone filed an anti-trust law 
suit against freedom scientific.
Karen

On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, David Poehlman wrote:

> I was told that it must have text in the script but that it does not have to 
> support non js user agents.
>
> -- 
> Jonnie Apple Seed
> With His:
> Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
>
>
> On Jun 9, 2005, at 7:27 PM, Janina Sajka wrote:
>
> Ah, and maybe I missed something else? I don't recall Sec. 508 requires
> js. My recollection of Sec. 508 regs is that any use of scripting is
> supposed to degrade in an accessible manner if a script capable user
> agent is in use.
>
> Ryan Mann writes:
>
>> 
>> Lynx is limitted in functionality.  For example, there is no
>> support for Javascript.
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, 8 Jun 2005, Sean McMahon wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> > Why can't you test complience with a text-based browser.  I'm sure if
>> > something
>> > works in lynx, it would be complient right?
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Jared" <jared-stofflett@pop-server.twmi.rr.com>
>> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>> > Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 10:30 AM
>> > Subject: web browsing and section 508 under linux
>> > 
>> > 
>> > I have to do some testing for section 508 compliance on a product at the
>> > company
>> > I work for. I know I will be using internet explorer under windows. This
>> > product
>> > is supposed to be cross platform, is there any browser that's accessible
>> > enough
>> > to test under linux which works under x-windows? Appreciate any info.
>> > 
>> > --
>> > This message was sent using 3wmail.
>> > Your fast free POP3 mail client at www.3wmail.com
>> > 
>>> _______________________________________________
>> > Speakup mailing list
>> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> > 
>> > 
>>> _______________________________________________
>> > Speakup mailing list
>> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> > 
>> > 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> 
>
> -- 
>
> Chair, Accessibility Workgroup        Free Standards Group (FSG)
> janina@freestandards.org        http://a11y.org
>
> Janina Sajka                Phone: +1.202.494.7040
> Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC    http://www.CapitalAccessibility.Com
>
> Bringing the Owasys 22C screenless cell phone to the U.S. and Canada. Go to 
> http://www.ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux

[Janina Sajka]

OK. I'm refresehed on this ...

The EITAAC suggested using W3C/WAI, however the Access Board decided to
define javascript accessibility on its own so does diverge in this
regard.

David Poehlman writes:
> I was told that it must have text in the script but that it does not  
> have to support non js user agents.
> 
> -- 
> Jonnie Apple Seed
> With His:
> Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
> 
> 
> On Jun 9, 2005, at 7:27 PM, Janina Sajka wrote:
> 
> Ah, and maybe I missed something else? I don't recall Sec. 508 requires
> js. My recollection of Sec. 508 regs is that any use of scripting is
> supposed to degrade in an accessible manner if a script capable user
> agent is in use.
> 
> Ryan Mann writes:
> 
> >
> >Lynx is limitted in functionality.  For example, there is no
> >support for Javascript.
> >
> >
> >On Wed, 8 Jun 2005, Sean McMahon wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Why can't you test complience with a text-based browser.  I'm sure if
> >>something
> >>works in lynx, it would be complient right?
> >>----- Original Message -----
> >>From: "Jared" <jared-stofflett@pop-server.twmi.rr.com>
> >>To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> >>Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 10:30 AM
> >>Subject: web browsing and section 508 under linux
> >>
> >>
> >>I have to do some testing for section 508 compliance on a product  
> >>at the
> >>company
> >>I work for. I know I will be using internet explorer under  
> >>windows. This
> >>product
> >>is supposed to be cross platform, is there any browser that's  
> >>accessible
> >>enough
> >>to test under linux which works under x-windows? Appreciate any info.
> >>
> >>--
> >>This message was sent using 3wmail.
> >>Your fast free POP3 mail client at www.3wmail.com
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Speakup mailing list
> >>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >>
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Speakup mailing list
> >>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >>
> >>
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> -- 
> 
> Chair, Accessibility Workgroup        Free Standards Group (FSG)
> janina@freestandards.org        http://a11y.org
> 
> Janina Sajka                Phone: +1.202.494.7040
> Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC    http:// 
> www.CapitalAccessibility.Com
> 
> Bringing the Owasys 22C screenless cell phone to the U.S. and Canada.  
> Go to http://www.ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 

Chair, Accessibility Workgroup		Free Standards Group (FSG)
janina@freestandards.org		http://a11y.org

Janina Sajka				Phone: +1.202.494.7040
Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC	http://www.CapitalAccessibility.Com

Bringing the Owasys 22C screenless cell phone to the U.S. and Canada. Go to http://www.ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more.

Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux

[Janina Sajka]

Remember that 508 applies to U.S. Federal web sites, not to anyone else
unless someone else has voluntary decided to adopt 508 guidance. Thus,
the Feds most certainly have always defined their own what can and
cannot be done by the government itself, subject only to review by the
courts.

I found the following:

http://www.access-board.gov/sec508/guide/1194.22.htm#(l)

PS: Be careful with this URL. If you issue it on the command line, as
for example:

lynx http://www.access-board.gov/sec508/guide/1194.22.htm#(l)

it will break unless you quote the URL:

lynx "http://www.access-board.gov/sec508/guide/1194.22.htm#(l)"

Guess the Access Board isn't omniscient! <grin>

Karen Lewellen writes:
> Wait,
> That I want to see in writing.  Since when does the government dictate 
> which scripting agents are to be used?  508 means basically ease of access 
> which generally means non-graphical, as you cannot fully control the 
> graphical structure.
> If  people are being told that, it is time someone filed an anti-trust law 
> suit against freedom scientific.
> Karen
> 
> On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, David Poehlman wrote:
> 
> >I was told that it must have text in the script but that it does not have 
> >to support non js user agents.
> >
> >-- 
> >Jonnie Apple Seed
> >With His:
> >Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
> >
> >
> >On Jun 9, 2005, at 7:27 PM, Janina Sajka wrote:
> >
> >Ah, and maybe I missed something else? I don't recall Sec. 508 requires
> >js. My recollection of Sec. 508 regs is that any use of scripting is
> >supposed to degrade in an accessible manner if a script capable user
> >agent is in use.
> >
> >Ryan Mann writes:
> >
> >>
> >>Lynx is limitted in functionality.  For example, there is no
> >>support for Javascript.
> >>
> >>
> >>On Wed, 8 Jun 2005, Sean McMahon wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> Why can't you test complience with a text-based browser.  I'm sure if
> >>> something
> >>> works in lynx, it would be complient right?
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Jared" <jared-stofflett@pop-server.twmi.rr.com>
> >>> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 10:30 AM
> >>> Subject: web browsing and section 508 under linux
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> I have to do some testing for section 508 compliance on a product at the
> >>> company
> >>> I work for. I know I will be using internet explorer under windows. This
> >>> product
> >>> is supposed to be cross platform, is there any browser that's accessible
> >>> enough
> >>> to test under linux which works under x-windows? Appreciate any info.
> >>> 
> >>> --
> >>> This message was sent using 3wmail.
> >>> Your fast free POP3 mail client at www.3wmail.com
> >>> 
> >>>_______________________________________________
> >>> Speakup mailing list
> >>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>>_______________________________________________
> >>> Speakup mailing list
> >>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Speakup mailing list
> >>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >>
> >
> >-- 
> >
> >Chair, Accessibility Workgroup        Free Standards Group (FSG)
> >janina@freestandards.org        http://a11y.org
> >
> >Janina Sajka                Phone: +1.202.494.7040
> >Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC    http://www.CapitalAccessibility.Com
> >
> >Bringing the Owasys 22C screenless cell phone to the U.S. and Canada. Go 
> >to http://www.ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more.
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 

Chair, Accessibility Workgroup		Free Standards Group (FSG)
janina@freestandards.org		http://a11y.org

Janina Sajka				Phone: +1.202.494.7040
Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC	http://www.CapitalAccessibility.Com

Bringing the Owasys 22C screenless cell phone to the U.S. and Canada. Go to http://www.ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more.

Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux

[Karen Lewellen]

but why?
given its expense, the problems it has, the lack of real support for 
anyone making a commitment to it.
the w3 rules are simple clear and more of a level playing field.
I am just wondering from a journalistic standpoint.
Karen

On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, Janina Sajka wrote:

> OK. I'm refresehed on this ...
>
> The EITAAC suggested using W3C/WAI, however the Access Board decided to
> define javascript accessibility on its own so does diverge in this
> regard.
>
> David Poehlman writes:
>> I was told that it must have text in the script but that it does not
>> have to support non js user agents.
>>
>> --
>> Jonnie Apple Seed
>> With His:
>> Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
>>
>>
>> On Jun 9, 2005, at 7:27 PM, Janina Sajka wrote:
>>
>> Ah, and maybe I missed something else? I don't recall Sec. 508 requires
>> js. My recollection of Sec. 508 regs is that any use of scripting is
>> supposed to degrade in an accessible manner if a script capable user
>> agent is in use.
>>
>> Ryan Mann writes:
>>
>>>
>>> Lynx is limitted in functionality.  For example, there is no
>>> support for Javascript.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 8 Jun 2005, Sean McMahon wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Why can't you test complience with a text-based browser.  I'm sure if
>>>> something
>>>> works in lynx, it would be complient right?
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Jared" <jared-stofflett@pop-server.twmi.rr.com>
>>>> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 10:30 AM
>>>> Subject: web browsing and section 508 under linux
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have to do some testing for section 508 compliance on a product
>>>> at the
>>>> company
>>>> I work for. I know I will be using internet explorer under
>>>> windows. This
>>>> product
>>>> is supposed to be cross platform, is there any browser that's
>>>> accessible
>>>> enough
>>>> to test under linux which works under x-windows? Appreciate any info.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> This message was sent using 3wmail.
>>>> Your fast free POP3 mail client at www.3wmail.com
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Speakup mailing list
>>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Speakup mailing list
>>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Chair, Accessibility Workgroup        Free Standards Group (FSG)
>> janina@freestandards.org        http://a11y.org
>>
>> Janina Sajka                Phone: +1.202.494.7040
>> Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC    http://
>> www.CapitalAccessibility.Com
>>
>> Bringing the Owasys 22C screenless cell phone to the U.S. and Canada.
>> Go to http://www.ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> -- 
>
> Chair, Accessibility Workgroup		Free Standards Group (FSG)
> janina@freestandards.org		http://a11y.org
>
> Janina Sajka				Phone: +1.202.494.7040
> Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC	http://www.CapitalAccessibility.Com
>
> Bringing the Owasys 22C screenless cell phone to the U.S. and Canada. Go to http://www.ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux

[Janina Sajka]

I honestly don't know. I can speculate, but it would be just my guess,
educated though it might be considered.

Karen Lewellen writes:
> but why?
> given its expense, the problems it has, the lack of real support for 
> anyone making a commitment to it.
> the w3 rules are simple clear and more of a level playing field.
> I am just wondering from a journalistic standpoint.
> Karen
> 
> On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, Janina Sajka wrote:
> 
> >OK. I'm refresehed on this ...
> >
> >The EITAAC suggested using W3C/WAI, however the Access Board decided to
> >define javascript accessibility on its own so does diverge in this
> >regard.
> >
> >David Poehlman writes:
> >>I was told that it must have text in the script but that it does not
> >>have to support non js user agents.
> >>
> >>--
> >>Jonnie Apple Seed
> >>With His:
> >>Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
> >>
> >>
> >>On Jun 9, 2005, at 7:27 PM, Janina Sajka wrote:
> >>
> >>Ah, and maybe I missed something else? I don't recall Sec. 508 requires
> >>js. My recollection of Sec. 508 regs is that any use of scripting is
> >>supposed to degrade in an accessible manner if a script capable user
> >>agent is in use.
> >>
> >>Ryan Mann writes:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>Lynx is limitted in functionality.  For example, there is no
> >>>support for Javascript.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>On Wed, 8 Jun 2005, Sean McMahon wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Why can't you test complience with a text-based browser.  I'm sure if
> >>>>something
> >>>>works in lynx, it would be complient right?
> >>>>----- Original Message -----
> >>>>From: "Jared" <jared-stofflett@pop-server.twmi.rr.com>
> >>>>To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> >>>>Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 10:30 AM
> >>>>Subject: web browsing and section 508 under linux
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>I have to do some testing for section 508 compliance on a product
> >>>>at the
> >>>>company
> >>>>I work for. I know I will be using internet explorer under
> >>>>windows. This
> >>>>product
> >>>>is supposed to be cross platform, is there any browser that's
> >>>>accessible
> >>>>enough
> >>>>to test under linux which works under x-windows? Appreciate any info.
> >>>>
> >>>>--
> >>>>This message was sent using 3wmail.
> >>>>Your fast free POP3 mail client at www.3wmail.com
> >>>>
> >>>>_______________________________________________
> >>>>Speakup mailing list
> >>>>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >>>>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>_______________________________________________
> >>>>Speakup mailing list
> >>>>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >>>>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>_______________________________________________
> >>>Speakup mailing list
> >>>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >>>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >>>
> >>
> >>--
> >>
> >>Chair, Accessibility Workgroup        Free Standards Group (FSG)
> >>janina@freestandards.org        http://a11y.org
> >>
> >>Janina Sajka                Phone: +1.202.494.7040
> >>Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC    http://
> >>www.CapitalAccessibility.Com
> >>
> >>Bringing the Owasys 22C screenless cell phone to the U.S. and Canada.
> >>Go to http://www.ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more.
> >>
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Speakup mailing list
> >>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Speakup mailing list
> >>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >-- 
> >
> >Chair, Accessibility Workgroup		Free Standards Group (FSG)
> >janina@freestandards.org		http://a11y.org
> >
> >Janina Sajka				Phone: +1.202.494.7040
> >Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC	http://www.CapitalAccessibility.Com
> >
> >Bringing the Owasys 22C screenless cell phone to the U.S. and Canada. Go 
> >to http://www.ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more.
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 

Chair, Accessibility Workgroup		Free Standards Group (FSG)
janina@freestandards.org		http://a11y.org

Janina Sajka				Phone: +1.202.494.7040
Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC	http://www.CapitalAccessibility.Com

Bringing the Owasys 22C screenless cell phone to the U.S. and Canada. Go to http://www.ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more.

Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux

[Janina Sajka]

elinks was mentioned in this thread as a console browser with javascript
support.

I have an rpm of elinks-0.10.3 with javascript support available on my
ftp site if anyone would like it:

ftp://ftp.rednote.net/fedora/rednote/RPMS/

You will also need the js rpm package.

Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux

[David Poehlman]

interesting.

-- 
Jonnie Apple Seed
With His:
Hands-On Technolog(eye)s


On Jun 9, 2005, at 10:23 PM, Janina Sajka wrote:

elinks was mentioned in this thread as a console browser with javascript
support.

I have an rpm of elinks-0.10.3 with javascript support available on my
ftp site if anyone would like it:

ftp://ftp.rednote.net/fedora/rednote/RPMS/

You will also need the js rpm package.


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux

[David Poehlman]

It was a back room deal.  It had to do with a percieved security  
issue.  It was said that the only way to provide time out warnings  
was through js.

-- 
Jonnie Apple Seed
With His:
Hands-On Technolog(eye)s


On Jun 9, 2005, at 10:21 PM, Janina Sajka wrote:

I honestly don't know. I can speculate, but it would be just my guess,
educated though it might be considered.

Karen Lewellen writes:

> but why?
> given its expense, the problems it has, the lack of real support for
> anyone making a commitment to it.
> the w3 rules are simple clear and more of a level playing field.
> I am just wondering from a journalistic standpoint.
> Karen
>
> On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, Janina Sajka wrote:
>
>
>> OK. I'm refresehed on this ...
>>
>> The EITAAC suggested using W3C/WAI, however the Access Board  
>> decided to
>> define javascript accessibility on its own so does diverge in this
>> regard.
>>
>> David Poehlman writes:
>>
>>> I was told that it must have text in the script but that it does not
>>> have to support non js user agents.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Jonnie Apple Seed
>>> With His:
>>> Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 9, 2005, at 7:27 PM, Janina Sajka wrote:
>>>
>>> Ah, and maybe I missed something else? I don't recall Sec. 508  
>>> requires
>>> js. My recollection of Sec. 508 regs is that any use of scripting is
>>> supposed to degrade in an accessible manner if a script capable user
>>> agent is in use.
>>>
>>> Ryan Mann writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Lynx is limitted in functionality.  For example, there is no
>>>> support for Javascript.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 8 Jun 2005, Sean McMahon wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Why can't you test complience with a text-based browser.  I'm  
>>>>> sure if
>>>>> something
>>>>> works in lynx, it would be complient right?
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Jared" <jared-stofflett@pop-server.twmi.rr.com>
>>>>> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 10:30 AM
>>>>> Subject: web browsing and section 508 under linux
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have to do some testing for section 508 compliance on a product
>>>>> at the
>>>>> company
>>>>> I work for. I know I will be using internet explorer under
>>>>> windows. This
>>>>> product
>>>>> is supposed to be cross platform, is there any browser that's
>>>>> accessible
>>>>> enough
>>>>> to test under linux which works under x-windows? Appreciate any  
>>>>> info.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> This message was sent using 3wmail.
>>>>> Your fast free POP3 mail client at www.3wmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Speakup mailing list
>>>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Speakup mailing list
>>>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Speakup mailing list
>>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Chair, Accessibility Workgroup        Free Standards Group (FSG)
>>> janina@freestandards.org        http://a11y.org
>>>
>>> Janina Sajka                Phone: +1.202.494.7040
>>> Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC    http://
>>> www.CapitalAccessibility.Com
>>>
>>> Bringing the Owasys 22C screenless cell phone to the U.S. and  
>>> Canada.
>>> Go to http://www.ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>
>>
>> -- 
>>
>> Chair, Accessibility Workgroup        Free Standards Group (FSG)
>> janina@freestandards.org        http://a11y.org
>>
>> Janina Sajka                Phone: +1.202.494.7040
>> Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC    http:// 
>> www.CapitalAccessibility.Com
>>
>> Bringing the Owasys 22C screenless cell phone to the U.S. and  
>> Canada. Go
>> to http://www.ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

-- 

Chair, Accessibility Workgroup        Free Standards Group (FSG)
janina@freestandards.org        http://a11y.org

Janina Sajka                Phone: +1.202.494.7040
Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC    http:// 
www.CapitalAccessibility.Com

Bringing the Owasys 22C screenless cell phone to the U.S. and Canada.  
Go to http://www.ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more.


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux

[Karen Lewellen]

  Go ahead, I am really interested in your opinion on this given you are
  actively involved with some of the process.
  It seems so unreasonable just from a majority standpoint.   depending on who
  you ask 80% of the blindness population is unemployed,  and the cost of the
  jfw setup, including all of the additional scripting you may have to pay for
  is astronomical.  add to this that the price of other products, window eyes,
  windows-bridge are far mor reasonable, and require less scripting to achieve
  a like affect, if not a better one.  That is of course assuming you want
  graphical at all.  How many people  even in  that small 20% market  are using
  dos under those windows setups?
  Likewise the Internet in general could be seen as a tool used by the average,
  say that 80% as an door through which they can educate and expand their
  professional options,  much like a library.
  Additionally, even governmental compliance works for the majority, with the
  least common denominator serving as the rule.  This should translate into
  text, or text plus Javascript as with eLinks, or if graphics 
are included into the most available, most cost efficient level that puts the
  majority at a even point.  JFW is hardly suitable as such a model.
  This is why I find the stance of the freedom box people, and I just cannot
  believe they did not want people to think of FS with that name, given how
  inappropriate it is for a browser, when they choose not to make their product
  work with lynx.  Lynx is where the 80% of your market is starting, why not
  give them the tools to appreciate your product and let them want to pay for
  it because it works for them, then charge for the browser that is already not
  working at the level of most of your market.
  This is a bit of a tangent, but echos the same point.  Given where the
  audience is standing, it is unrealistic to make that gap wider.
  By the way, indeed 508 is for the moment a governmental standard, but as the
  first post in this thread illustrates, the private sector is likely to look
  at the established standard before creating one of their own.
  for example the folks stuck with faulty Microsoft products, even if they do
  not do the job etc.
  So do share your opinion here?
I have my own ideas, but welcome yours educated to be sure.
  Karen

>> > > > 
>> > > >  Bringing the Owasys 22C screenless cell phone to the U.S. and 
>> > > >  Canada.
>> > > >  Go to http://www.ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more.
>> > > > 
>> > > > 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>> > > >  Speakup mailing list
>> > > >  Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> > > >  http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> > > > 
>> > > > 
>> > > > 
>> > > > 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>> > > >  Speakup mailing list
>> > > >  Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> > > >  http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> > > 
>> > >  --
>> > > 
>> > >  Chair, Accessibility Workgroup		Free Standards Group (FSG)
>> > >  janina@freestandards.org		http://a11y.org
>> > > 
>> > >  Janina Sajka				Phone: +1.202.494.7040
>> > >  Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC 
>> > >  http://www.CapitalAccessibility.Com
>> > > 
>> > >  Bringing the Owasys 22C screenless cell phone to the U.S. and Canada. 
>> > >  Go
>> > >  to http://www.ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more.
>> > > 
>> > > 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>> > >  Speakup mailing list
>> > >  Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> > >  http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> > > 
>> > 
>>> _______________________________________________
>> >  Speakup mailing list
>> >  Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> >  http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>>  -- 
>>
>>  Chair, Accessibility Workgroup		Free Standards Group (FSG)
>>  janina@freestandards.org		http://a11y.org
>>
>>  Janina Sajka				Phone: +1.202.494.7040
>>  Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC	http://www.CapitalAccessibility.Com
>>
>>  Bringing the Owasys 22C screenless cell phone to the U.S. and Canada. Go
>>  to http://www.ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more.
>> 
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  Speakup mailing list
>>  Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>  http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> 
>
>

Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux

[Janina Sajka]

Well, it is probably useful to recognize who did it, and what their
credentials are for doing it. The agency entrusted with the task had no
previous experience in technology regulations. In particular, I would
warrant most of its Board not particularly qualified in technology,
though perhaps well qualified in more traditional accessibility issues.
Suffice it to say they had to change their name from "Architectural and
Transportation Barriers Compliance Board." Just a few years previous to
this assignment, they described their charge as "all the things in a
building that wouldn't fall out if you could turn the building upside
down and shake it."

I'm not saying it was unreasonable to entrust the task to this agency,
just that they were rather new to the kind of regulating being asked of
them.

The thesis suggested by David Poehlman is probably as good as any. Even
though it smacks of "in loco parentis," it's plausible. So, too, is the
notion expressed at the URL I posted yesterday that some computational
tasks should be done client side, rather than server side, as if servers
were going to be overloaded with extraneous computational loads.

Suffice it to say that 508 represents the first time fairly serious
requirements on accessibility were imposed by the world's number one
technology customer. If you look at press stories about 508 around the
year 2000, there was quite a bit of fear mongering. It should not be
surprising that significant pressure would be exerted against various
provisions or proposed provisions.

Despite any failings, and I believe 508 has failings, I still regard it
as a solid move forward. Discrepencies such as the one under discussion
cannot continue unaddressed, because technology tends to abhor
discrepencies among political jurisdictions. Industry isn't served if
entity 1 requires A, but entity 2 requires "not A." Such things need to
be resolved and eventually this one will be.

I would close by observing my own disappointment about 508 is not so
much with the regs, but with our communities failure to pose any
significant challenge to 508 enforcement or practice. I'm unaware of any
significant 508 complaint, and that is just not credible to me.
Certainly there are problems, and there are mechanisms for adjudicating
complaints. I am one who believes that the 508 regulations fall far
short of the 508 law itself and are thus excellent fodder for
complaints. But, we don't have any--at least not any significant ones.



Karen Lewellen writes:
> 
>  Go ahead, I am really interested in your opinion on this given you are
>  actively involved with some of the process.

Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux

[David Poehlman]

Janina,

Well said but I don't know what local parentus is <grin>  They had  
plenty of help.  They had deep discussions with the wai and others  
around the country and infact the world.  Much of what they adopted  
came at the urging of industry and somewhat of a lack among the   
consumer community although I know that afb commented in volumes.  I  
do know that the draft we saw before publication was substantially  
changed between that final draft and its publication through locked  
room proceedings.

I've said enough on this though considering it's off topic for the  
list.  One more item though.  508 will be revisitted and hopefully,  
this time, it will be improved re the standards, but with the way  
that wcag 2.0 is going, I have my doubts if it is strung against it.

-- 
Jonnie Apple Seed
With His:
Hands-On Technolog(eye)s


On Jun 10, 2005, at 9:11 AM, Janina Sajka wrote:

Well, it is probably useful to recognize who did it, and what their
credentials are for doing it. The agency entrusted with the task had no
previous experience in technology regulations. In particular, I would
warrant most of its Board not particularly qualified in technology,
though perhaps well qualified in more traditional accessibility issues.
Suffice it to say they had to change their name from "Architectural and
Transportation Barriers Compliance Board." Just a few years previous to
this assignment, they described their charge as "all the things in a
building that wouldn't fall out if you could turn the building upside
down and shake it."

I'm not saying it was unreasonable to entrust the task to this agency,
just that they were rather new to the kind of regulating being asked of
them.

The thesis suggested by David Poehlman is probably as good as any. Even
though it smacks of "in loco parentis," it's plausible. So, too, is the
notion expressed at the URL I posted yesterday that some computational
tasks should be done client side, rather than server side, as if servers
were going to be overloaded with extraneous computational loads.

Suffice it to say that 508 represents the first time fairly serious
requirements on accessibility were imposed by the world's number one
technology customer. If you look at press stories about 508 around the
year 2000, there was quite a bit of fear mongering. It should not be
surprising that significant pressure would be exerted against various
provisions or proposed provisions.

Despite any failings, and I believe 508 has failings, I still regard it
as a solid move forward. Discrepencies such as the one under discussion
cannot continue unaddressed, because technology tends to abhor
discrepencies among political jurisdictions. Industry isn't served if
entity 1 requires A, but entity 2 requires "not A." Such things need to
be resolved and eventually this one will be.

I would close by observing my own disappointment about 508 is not so
much with the regs, but with our communities failure to pose any
significant challenge to 508 enforcement or practice. I'm unaware of any
significant 508 complaint, and that is just not credible to me.
Certainly there are problems, and there are mechanisms for adjudicating
complaints. I am one who believes that the 508 regulations fall far
short of the 508 law itself and are thus excellent fodder for
complaints. But, we don't have any--at least not any significant ones.



Karen Lewellen writes:

>
>  Go ahead, I am really interested in your opinion on this given you  
> are
>  actively involved with some of the process.
>

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux

[Janina Sajka]

Hi, 

David, I hoped to convey that industry had substantial influence in
weakening 508 regulations during the reg writing process. I certainly
agree with your point on that.

You are also correct that a move is afoot to revisit 508 regs. I would
hope this does not happen for another year or two. I think the time is
very wrong for that. For example, how can the Access Board properly
write regs when no one has seen what UI-Automation will give us, and
only begun to understand what Cocoa and AT-SPI can and cannot do?
Frankly, I would expect revisiting the regs today would only serve to
entrench existing practices for another 5 or 6 years.

David Poehlman writes:
> Janina,
> 
> Well said but I don't know what local parentus is <grin>  They had  
> plenty of help.  They had deep discussions with the wai and others  
> around the country and infact the world.  Much of what they adopted  
> came at the urging of industry and somewhat of a lack among the   
> consumer community although I know that afb commented in volumes.  I  
> do know that the draft we saw before publication was substantially  
> changed between that final draft and its publication through locked  
> room proceedings.
> 
> I've said enough on this though considering it's off topic for the  
> list.  One more item though.  508 will be revisitted and hopefully,  
> this time, it will be improved re the standards, but with the way  
> that wcag 2.0 is going, I have my doubts if it is strung against it.
> 
> -- 
> Jonnie Apple Seed
> With His:
> Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
> 
> 
> On Jun 10, 2005, at 9:11 AM, Janina Sajka wrote:
> 
> Well, it is probably useful to recognize who did it, and what their
> credentials are for doing it. The agency entrusted with the task had no
> previous experience in technology regulations. In particular, I would
> warrant most of its Board not particularly qualified in technology,
> though perhaps well qualified in more traditional accessibility issues.
> Suffice it to say they had to change their name from "Architectural and
> Transportation Barriers Compliance Board." Just a few years previous to
> this assignment, they described their charge as "all the things in a
> building that wouldn't fall out if you could turn the building upside
> down and shake it."
> 
> I'm not saying it was unreasonable to entrust the task to this agency,
> just that they were rather new to the kind of regulating being asked of
> them.
> 
> The thesis suggested by David Poehlman is probably as good as any. Even
> though it smacks of "in loco parentis," it's plausible. So, too, is the
> notion expressed at the URL I posted yesterday that some computational
> tasks should be done client side, rather than server side, as if servers
> were going to be overloaded with extraneous computational loads.
> 
> Suffice it to say that 508 represents the first time fairly serious
> requirements on accessibility were imposed by the world's number one
> technology customer. If you look at press stories about 508 around the
> year 2000, there was quite a bit of fear mongering. It should not be
> surprising that significant pressure would be exerted against various
> provisions or proposed provisions.
> 
> Despite any failings, and I believe 508 has failings, I still regard it
> as a solid move forward. Discrepencies such as the one under discussion
> cannot continue unaddressed, because technology tends to abhor
> discrepencies among political jurisdictions. Industry isn't served if
> entity 1 requires A, but entity 2 requires "not A." Such things need to
> be resolved and eventually this one will be.
> 
> I would close by observing my own disappointment about 508 is not so
> much with the regs, but with our communities failure to pose any
> significant challenge to 508 enforcement or practice. I'm unaware of any
> significant 508 complaint, and that is just not credible to me.
> Certainly there are problems, and there are mechanisms for adjudicating
> complaints. I am one who believes that the 508 regulations fall far
> short of the 508 law itself and are thus excellent fodder for
> complaints. But, we don't have any--at least not any significant ones.
> 
> 
> 
> Karen Lewellen writes:
> 
> >
> > Go ahead, I am really interested in your opinion on this given you  
> >are
> > actively involved with some of the process.
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 

Chair, Accessibility Workgroup		Free Standards Group (FSG)
janina@freestandards.org		http://a11y.org

Janina Sajka				Phone: +1.202.494.7040
Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC	http://www.CapitalAccessibility.Com

Bringing the Owasys 22C screenless cell phone to the U.S. and Canada. Go to http://www.ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more.

Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux

[Sean McMahon]

One clarification on this thread, 508 applies to governmental agencies and those
which recieve federal funding.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@shellworld.net>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 8:16 PM
Subject: Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux


>
>   Go ahead, I am really interested in your opinion on this given you are
>   actively involved with some of the process.
>   It seems so unreasonable just from a majority standpoint.   depending on who
>   you ask 80% of the blindness population is unemployed,  and the cost of the
>   jfw setup, including all of the additional scripting you may have to pay for
>   is astronomical.  add to this that the price of other products, window eyes,
>   windows-bridge are far mor reasonable, and require less scripting to achieve
>   a like affect, if not a better one.  That is of course assuming you want
>   graphical at all.  How many people  even in  that small 20% market  are
using
>   dos under those windows setups?
>   Likewise the Internet in general could be seen as a tool used by the
average,
>   say that 80% as an door through which they can educate and expand their
>   professional options,  much like a library.
>   Additionally, even governmental compliance works for the majority, with the
>   least common denominator serving as the rule.  This should translate into
>   text, or text plus Javascript as with eLinks, or if graphics
> are included into the most available, most cost efficient level that puts the
>   majority at a even point.  JFW is hardly suitable as such a model.
>   This is why I find the stance of the freedom box people, and I just cannot
>   believe they did not want people to think of FS with that name, given how
>   inappropriate it is for a browser, when they choose not to make their
product
>   work with lynx.  Lynx is where the 80% of your market is starting, why not
>   give them the tools to appreciate your product and let them want to pay for
>   it because it works for them, then charge for the browser that is already
not
>   working at the level of most of your market.
>   This is a bit of a tangent, but echos the same point.  Given where the
>   audience is standing, it is unrealistic to make that gap wider.
>   By the way, indeed 508 is for the moment a governmental standard, but as the
>   first post in this thread illustrates, the private sector is likely to look
>   at the established standard before creating one of their own.
>   for example the folks stuck with faulty Microsoft products, even if they do
>   not do the job etc.
>   So do share your opinion here?
> I have my own ideas, but welcome yours educated to be sure.
>   Karen
>
> >> > > >
> >> > > >  Bringing the Owasys 22C screenless cell phone to the U.S. and
> >> > > >  Canada.
> >> > > >  Go to http://www.ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more.
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >> > > >  Speakup mailing list
> >> > > >  Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >> > > >  http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >> > > >  Speakup mailing list
> >> > > >  Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >> > > >  http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >> > >
> >> > >  --
> >> > >
> >> > >  Chair, Accessibility Workgroup Free Standards Group (FSG)
> >> > >  janina@freestandards.org http://a11y.org
> >> > >
> >> > >  Janina Sajka Phone: +1.202.494.7040
> >> > >  Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC
> >> > >  http://www.CapitalAccessibility.Com
> >> > >
> >> > >  Bringing the Owasys 22C screenless cell phone to the U.S. and Canada.
> >> > >  Go
> >> > >  to http://www.ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >> > >  Speakup mailing list
> >> > >  Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >> > >  http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >> >  Speakup mailing list
> >> >  Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >> >  http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >>
> >>  -- 
> >>
> >>  Chair, Accessibility Workgroup Free Standards Group (FSG)
> >>  janina@freestandards.org http://a11y.org
> >>
> >>  Janina Sajka Phone: +1.202.494.7040
> >>  Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC http://www.CapitalAccessibility.Com
> >>
> >>  Bringing the Owasys 22C screenless cell phone to the U.S. and Canada. Go
> >>  to http://www.ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more.
> >>
> >>
> >>  _______________________________________________
> >>  Speakup mailing list
> >>  Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >>  http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >>
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux

[Steve Holmes]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: RIPEMD160

On Wed, Jun 08, 2005 at 02:10:16PM -0400, Karen Lewellen wrote:
> However,
>  links, does have javascript abilities.

Not very good Javascript though.  Try it with phpmysqladmin or
pghpgadmin some time.  These two web based database admin tools put up
nice looking screens under MS IE or Firefox but links - zippo.  Of
javascript based web sites I've beento, I would say that 1 or 2 percent
were successful; the rest failed!

- -- 
HolmesGrown Solutions
The best solutions for the best price!
http://ld.net/?holmesgrown
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Version: GnuPG v1.2.7 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFCsKbLWSjv55S0LfERA3lhAJ9eWRiLL6Tg9yFTQxfGxN31A/F3UgCfWaNx
tBBw3K7QMi1xqwLYI4SGUw8=
=iL0q
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux

[Karen Lewellen]

I have no idea what those databases are.
Such only illustrates the real individualism in web usage.  I have used 
elinks with wonderful success time and time again, navigating and working 
with Javascripts with only a 1% at most failure rate.
I do not have to use this often, but when it is needful it has came 
through for me most  of the time.  This is however, me.    I can only 
speak to my own usage, and  would not ever tell a person that a program is not 
good or for them  just because I have had little success with it.
the P in PC after all does stand for personal, and my own experience is in 
no way a measure for what another's might be.  I dare say the same can be 
said for everyone, smiles.
  Karen

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005, Steve Holmes wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: RIPEMD160
>
> On Wed, Jun 08, 2005 at 02:10:16PM -0400, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>> However,
>>  links, does have javascript abilities.
>
> Not very good Javascript though.  Try it with phpmysqladmin or
> pghpgadmin some time.  These two web based database admin tools put up
> nice looking screens under MS IE or Firefox but links - zippo.  Of
> javascript based web sites I've beento, I would say that 1 or 2 percent
> were successful; the rest failed!
>
> - --
> HolmesGrown Solutions
> The best solutions for the best price!
> http://ld.net/?holmesgrown
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.2.7 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iD8DBQFCsKbLWSjv55S0LfERA3lhAJ9eWRiLL6Tg9yFTQxfGxN31A/F3UgCfWaNx
> tBBw3K7QMi1xqwLYI4SGUw8=
> =iL0q
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux

[Sean McMahon]

links and elinks are two different browsers.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@shellworld.net>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 3:22 PM
Subject: Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux


> I have no idea what those databases are.
> Such only illustrates the real individualism in web usage.  I have used
> elinks with wonderful success time and time again, navigating and working
> with Javascripts with only a 1% at most failure rate.
> I do not have to use this often, but when it is needful it has came
> through for me most  of the time.  This is however, me.    I can only
> speak to my own usage, and  would not ever tell a person that a program is not
> good or for them  just because I have had little success with it.
> the P in PC after all does stand for personal, and my own experience is in
> no way a measure for what another's might be.  I dare say the same can be
> said for everyone, smiles.
>   Karen
>
> On Wed, 15 Jun 2005, Steve Holmes wrote:
>
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: RIPEMD160
> >
> > On Wed, Jun 08, 2005 at 02:10:16PM -0400, Karen Lewellen wrote:
> >> However,
> >>  links, does have javascript abilities.
> >
> > Not very good Javascript though.  Try it with phpmysqladmin or
> > pghpgadmin some time.  These two web based database admin tools put up
> > nice looking screens under MS IE or Firefox but links - zippo.  Of
> > javascript based web sites I've beento, I would say that 1 or 2 percent
> > were successful; the rest failed!
> >
> > - --
> > HolmesGrown Solutions
> > The best solutions for the best price!
> > http://ld.net/?holmesgrown
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > Version: GnuPG v1.2.7 (GNU/Linux)
> >
> > iD8DBQFCsKbLWSjv55S0LfERA3lhAJ9eWRiLL6Tg9yFTQxfGxN31A/F3UgCfWaNx
> > tBBw3K7QMi1xqwLYI4SGUw8=
> > =iL0q
> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux

[hank smith]

what is the difference between the 2?
email:
hanksmith4@earthlink.net
gmail:
hanksmith5@gmail.com
msn messenger:
hanksmith4@earthlink.net
aim:
hanksmith5
skype:
hanksmith5
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sean McMahon" <smcmahon@usgs.gov>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 5:38 PM
Subject: Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux


> links and elinks are two different browsers.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@shellworld.net>
> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." 
> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 3:22 PM
> Subject: Re: web browsing and section 508 under linux
>
>
>> I have no idea what those databases are.
>> Such only illustrates the real individualism in web usage.  I have used
>> elinks with wonderful success time and time again, navigating and working
>> with Javascripts with only a 1% at most failure rate.
>> I do not have to use this often, but when it is needful it has came
>> through for me most  of the time.  This is however, me.    I can only
>> speak to my own usage, and  would not ever tell a person that a program 
>> is not
>> good or for them  just because I have had little success with it.
>> the P in PC after all does stand for personal, and my own experience is 
>> in
>> no way a measure for what another's might be.  I dare say the same can be
>> said for everyone, smiles.
>>   Karen
>>
>> On Wed, 15 Jun 2005, Steve Holmes wrote:
>>
>> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> > Hash: RIPEMD160
>> >
>> > On Wed, Jun 08, 2005 at 02:10:16PM -0400, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>> >> However,
>> >>  links, does have javascript abilities.
>> >
>> > Not very good Javascript though.  Try it with phpmysqladmin or
>> > pghpgadmin some time.  These two web based database admin tools put up
>> > nice looking screens under MS IE or Firefox but links - zippo.  Of
>> > javascript based web sites I've beento, I would say that 1 or 2 percent
>> > were successful; the rest failed!
>> >
>> > - --
>> > HolmesGrown Solutions
>> > The best solutions for the best price!
>> > http://ld.net/?holmesgrown
>> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>> > Version: GnuPG v1.2.7 (GNU/Linux)
>> >
>> > iD8DBQFCsKbLWSjv55S0LfERA3lhAJ9eWRiLL6Tg9yFTQxfGxN31A/F3UgCfWaNx
>> > tBBw3K7QMi1xqwLYI4SGUw8=
>> > =iL0q
>> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Speakup mailing list
>> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> -- 
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>