Mobile Accessibility

Mobile Accessibility

[Whitley CTR Cecil H]

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Hi,
hit google and answered my own question.  Couldn't find anything for a
motorola v60i though....  
Cecil

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Re: Mobile Accessibility

[Janina Sajka]

So, please consider filing a Section 255 complaint. You don't have to
use them to do so, but we have some info and forms that you can use at
http://www.afb.org/section255.asp.

I can tell you (and everyone listening in) that several of us have been
working hard on the advocacy side to get the industry to make accessible
phones. One of the problems we run into is the argument that people just
don't care. Why do they say that? Because so few people take advantage
of the complaint process built into the U.S. law.

Please consider filing a complaint. It would help a lot.

Whitley CTR Cecil H writes:
> From: Whitley CTR Cecil H <WhitleyCH.ctr@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
> 
>    Hi,
>    hit google and answered my own question.  Couldn't find anything for a
>    motorola v60i though.... 
>    Cecil

> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup


-- 
	
Janina Sajka
Email: janina@rednote.net		
Phone: (202) 408-8175

Director, Technology Research and Development
American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
http://www.afb.org

Chair, Accessibility Work Group
Free Standards Group
http://accessibility.freestandards.org

Re: Mobile Accessibility

[Cheryl Homiak]

Janina:
Are pdf files for cell phone manuals considered to be meeting
accessibility?
I am having to have my cell phone manual brailled at my own expense. the
only way I could get it, other than print, was pdf. when i downloaded the
pdf and turned it into text, I think the columns on pages must have been
interwoven or something, because I'll get a sentence or part thereof of
one topic and then it switches to a sentence of another topic. It would
appear that there was some kind of formatting or columning that neither an
html translator or text translator could handle.
Ironically, the volunteer group transcribing my manual have found the pdf
file very helpful for the transcription--but I couldn't use it "out of the
box" so to speak.
the whole accessibility thing is rather strange, as there are increasingly
voice recognition and speech production in some way by these phones, but
those capabilities never extend to actual navigation of the menus and
reading of the display, etc.


-- 
Cheryl

Re: Mobile Accessibility

[Allan Shaw]

Hi,

If you can give me some more info on what problems you were having 
accessing the pdf manual maybe I can help since I've been there several times.
by chance did it have something to do with the security settings?

At 13:05 11/5/03, you wrote:
>Janina:
>Are pdf files for cell phone manuals considered to be meeting
>accessibility?
>I am having to have my cell phone manual brailled at my own expense. the
>only way I could get it, other than print, was pdf. when i downloaded the
>pdf and turned it into text, I think the columns on pages must have been
>interwoven or something, because I'll get a sentence or part thereof of
>one topic and then it switches to a sentence of another topic. It would
>appear that there was some kind of formatting or columning that neither an
>html translator or text translator could handle.
>Ironically, the volunteer group transcribing my manual have found the pdf
>file very helpful for the transcription--but I couldn't use it "out of the
>box" so to speak.
>the whole accessibility thing is rather strange, as there are increasingly
>voice recognition and speech production in some way by these phones, but
>those capabilities never extend to actual navigation of the menus and
>reading of the display, etc.
>
>
>--
>Cheryl
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Mobile Accessibility

[Cheryl Homiak]

Oh no.
I was able to download it fine, and the table of contents was fine I
think. but there must have been columns or something strange, because
sentences from the text were interspersed, waving back and forth between
topics. I tried converting the pdf file both to html and text with the
same results.
But it really doesn't matter now in this particular instance, since i'm
having it brailled. However, it does point out one of the pdf files, at
least in linux and maybe in general; I don't know.



-- 
Cheryl

Re: Mobile Accessibility

[Thomas Stivers]

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Hash: SHA1

On 11/05/03  1:28 PM -0600, Cheryl Homiak wrote:
> Oh no.
> I was able to download it fine, and the table of contents was fine I
> think. but there must have been columns or something strange, because
> sentences from the text were interspersed, waving back and forth between
> topics. I tried converting the pdf file both to html and text with the
> same results.
> But it really doesn't matter now in this particular instance, since i'm
> having it brailled. However, it does point out one of the pdf files, at
> least in linux and maybe in general; I don't know.

I have had similar problems with converting pdf's and unfortunately I
don't know if you can say they are inaccessable because they can usually
be read fine with jfw and acrobat. This problem is similar to the
trouble with web sites and again the answer you will hear on this list
is that the pdf was made incorrectly, and the answer you will hear
elsewhere is "what?! you don't use jfw?!". There may be a way to unwrap
the interspersed lines with some programming trick, but I haven't tried
it and that wouldn't be the ideal solution anyway.

- -- 
Unix is a user friendly operating system. It just picks its friends more
carefully than others.
Thomas Stivers	e-mail: stivers_t@tomass.dyndns.org	gpg: 45CBBABD
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Re: Mobile Accessibility

[Chuck Hallenbeck]

Cheryl,

I recently had a PDF file of the manual for my router, and
noticed the interleaving of lines too. I used the "-raw" option
on pdftotext to undo the columns which worked okay, except when
it undid the two columns on a page it placed the right column
first and then the left. So lines were no longer interleaved, but
columns were in the wrong order on the page. Maybe there was a
Hebrew/English switch I was supposed to use or something.

Chuck

On Wed, 5 Nov 2003, Cheryl Homiak wrote:

> Oh no.
> I was able to download it fine, and the table of contents was fine I
> think. but there must have been columns or something strange, because
> sentences from the text were interspersed, waving back and forth between
> topics. I tried converting the pdf file both to html and text with the
> same results.
> But it really doesn't matter now in this particular instance, since i'm
> having it brailled. However, it does point out one of the pdf files, at
> least in linux and maybe in general; I don't know.
>
>
>
>

-- 
The Moon is Waxing Gibbous (91% of Full)
 Get my public key from website, http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh

Re: Mobile Accessibility

[Janina Sajka]

Yes, Cheryl, I would encourage an even simpler version of this complaint
is sufficient for a Section 255 complaint. They have to give you an
accessible manual. That needs to include words that clearly describe the
available controls, the device features, and how to use them.

Frequently, converting PDF (and other formats) gives you instructions
like:

"To program a speed dial number first press  , then the number you want
followed by the  key. Next type a two digit number for the memory
location and press  ."

Every place I have above is a graphic of the button you're supposed to
press. That doesn't work, clearly. It's sufficient grounds for a
complaint.

What you should be getting and what you can file a complaint about is
covered in a brochure we publish at http://www.afb.org/section255.asp.

By the way, AFB (and ACB and NIB's) position on PDF is also published on
line at:

http://www.afb.org/AboutPDF.asp


Cheryl Homiak writes:
> From: Cheryl Homiak <chomiak@chartermi.net>
> 
> Janina:
> Are pdf files for cell phone manuals considered to be meeting
> accessibility?
> I am having to have my cell phone manual brailled at my own expense. the
> only way I could get it, other than print, was pdf. when i downloaded the
> pdf and turned it into text, I think the columns on pages must have been
> interwoven or something, because I'll get a sentence or part thereof of
> one topic and then it switches to a sentence of another topic. It would
> appear that there was some kind of formatting or columning that neither an
> html translator or text translator could handle.
> Ironically, the volunteer group transcribing my manual have found the pdf
> file very helpful for the transcription--but I couldn't use it "out of the
> box" so to speak.
> the whole accessibility thing is rather strange, as there are increasingly
> voice recognition and speech production in some way by these phones, but
> those capabilities never extend to actual navigation of the menus and
> reading of the display, etc.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Cheryl
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
Janina Sajka
Email: janina@rednote.net		
Phone: (202) 408-8175

Director, Technology Research and Development
American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
http://www.afb.org

Chair, Accessibility Work Group
Free Standards Group
http://accessibility.freestandards.org

Re: Mobile Accessibility

[Geoff Shang]

Hi Cherryl:

Like Janina, my main problem with mobile phone manuals is the graphics used
to represent buttons on the phones, rather than using words to describe the
buttons.  As for converting PDF documents, it's been my experience that no
single tool will give you the best results.  I have a couple of different
programs here (pstotext and pdftotext) and it really depends on the PDF
file as to which tool does the better job.

Not sure about other distributions, but in Debian, pstotext is in the
pstotext package and pdftotext is in the xpdf package.

One other thing I'd say.  The U.S. having section 255 is a good thing.
Many other places don't have such laws, but we can benefit from the law in
the USA.  So, as a non-American, I encourage people to make complaints
against these things so that all of us can benefit from accessible
documentation.

Geoff.

Re: Mobile Accessibility

[Cheryl Homiak]

I'm laughing, Chuck--I'm laughing!!!
Thanks!!!

-- 
Cheryl

On Wed, 5 Nov 2003, Chuck Hallenbeck wrote:

>
Maybe there was a Hebrew/English switch I was supposed to use or something.
>
> Chuck

Re: Mobile Accessibility

[Scott Howell]

Adam,

You can do this already. You have the option of purchasing a computer 
without a monitor or any brand, modle, size, color, etc. you wish. So 
therefore you can also purchase any screen reader or in the case of 
LInux use an open source screen reader which costs you nothing, but is 
priceless.
Isn't that amazing?


On Fri, Nov 07, 2003 at 05:04:23PM -0600, Adam Myrow wrote:
> Well, on a similar subject, wouldn't it be great if computers could be
> purchased with a screen reader?  I figure that for us, the screen reader
> is as important as a monitor is to a sighted person, so we should be able

Re: Mobile Accessibility

[Buddy Brannan]

LOL...I never said they were any good, just that yu could have
one. I'm gonna keep building my own, too, thank you very much.  
-- 
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV/3    | But I will lay my burden 
Email: davros@ycardz.com   | in the cradle of your grace,
ICQ: 36621210              | And the shining beaches of your love,
http://www.ycardz.com      | and the sea of your embrace.--Dave Carter

Re: Mobile Accessibility

[Alex Snow]

Yeah but those specially adapted computers are overpriced crap.
I recently saw one with a 15 gig hdd, pentium 3 I think 700mhz, and a 
<screem> noooooo! sb16 soundcard. all for $5,000 with win98, office 
2k, and jaws 4.5 I think.
I'd rather build my own. therefore I get what i want and I can get 
something that's at least close to cutting-edge technology.
On Fri, Nov 
07, 2003 at 06:38:51PM -0500, Buddy Brannan wrote:
> Of course one can purchase a computer with a screen reader already
> installed...you just have to buy it from a reseller that sells that
> sort of thing. Me, I'll stick to building my own from now on, I
> think. That way I can get what I want.  
> -- 
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV/3    | But I will lay my burden 
> Email: davros@ycardz.com   | in the cradle of your grace,
> ICQ: 36621210              | And the shining beaches of your love,
> http://www.ycardz.com      | and the sea of your embrace.--Dave Carter
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk?

Re: Mobile Accessibility

[Buddy Brannan]

Of course one can purchase a computer with a screen reader already
installed...you just have to buy it from a reseller that sells that
sort of thing. Me, I'll stick to building my own from now on, I
think. That way I can get what I want.  
-- 
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV/3    | But I will lay my burden 
Email: davros@ycardz.com   | in the cradle of your grace,
ICQ: 36621210              | And the shining beaches of your love,
http://www.ycardz.com      | and the sea of your embrace.--Dave Carter

Re: Mobile Accessibility

[Alex Snow]

Yeah that'd be cool. though speakup should come with any linux 
computer reguardless of whether the user wants it or not just with the 
synth set to null as the default at kernel compiletime. therefore if 
lets say i bought a new computer from circuit shitty that ran linux 
all I'd need to do was modify the config for the installed bootloader.
On 
Fri, Nov 07, 2003 at 05:04:23PM -0600, Adam Myrow wrote:
> Well, on a similar subject, wouldn't it be great if computers could be
> purchased with a screen reader?  I figure that for us, the screen reader
> is as important as a monitor is to a sighted person, so we should be able
> to get it in the package, and still buy a new one if necessary.
> Linux-based computers should have the option of Speakup in place of a
> monitor, for example.  Windows-based computers should be able to be
> purchased with either JFW, Window-Eyes, or any of the other lesser-known
> screen readers.  A sighted person can get a computer with anything from a
> tiny 14-inch monitor to a 21-inch monitor.  Just my thoughts.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk?

Re: Mobile Accessibility

[Adam Myrow]

Well, on a similar subject, wouldn't it be great if computers could be
purchased with a screen reader?  I figure that for us, the screen reader
is as important as a monitor is to a sighted person, so we should be able
to get it in the package, and still buy a new one if necessary.
Linux-based computers should have the option of Speakup in place of a
monitor, for example.  Windows-based computers should be able to be
purchased with either JFW, Window-Eyes, or any of the other lesser-known
screen readers.  A sighted person can get a computer with anything from a
tiny 14-inch monitor to a 21-inch monitor.  Just my thoughts.

Re: Mobile Accessibility

[Janina Sajka]

Cingular actually has a very capable blind woman as one of their
accessibility officers. It's someone I know and respect.

But, they're still not meeting Sec. 255. I don't think you'll find they
have a phone, at least not wireless, that gives you caller ID, battery
status, etc. Because they're moving to GSM, and already have significant
GSM rollout in some areas, they certainly could adopt Mobile
Accessibility but won't because it's a crash prone application.

Well, I can't blame them for that. But, I do blame all the service
providers for not requiring manufacturers to deliver phones with fully
functional TTS. Worse still, I blame them for designing operating
systems that support downloadable applications, without providing all
the necessary support to provide functional TTS. 

Let me know if I can help. If you're considering your options, and would
file a complaint if you feel you're not getting what youshould get, I
will help.

Whitley CTR Cecil H writes:
> From: Whitley CTR Cecil H <WhitleyCH.ctr@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
> 
>    Hi Janina,
>    cingular has a disability page.  The url is:
>    http://www.cingular.com/about/disability_resources
>    They've also got a support center with both voice and tty access numbers. 
>    The above url will lead to the info.  I don't know who at AFB is
>    responsible for the section 255 page, could you see they get this info? 
>    I'll be talking with them later, in particular I want caller id, so we'll
>    see what they have to offer.  Voice dialing (*8) is a nice feature though,
>    and goes to show that accessability for some can be extra features for
>    all.
> 
>    I'm currently having fun with Motorola trying to get the manual in
>    something other than pdf.  They claim braille/large print/audio for all
>    and ascii for some phones. 
> 
>    Thanks,
>    Cecil

> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup


-- 
	
Janina Sajka
Email: janina@rednote.net		
Phone: (202) 408-8175

Director, Technology Research and Development
American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
http://www.afb.org

Chair, Accessibility Work Group
Free Standards Group
http://accessibility.freestandards.org

RE: Mobile Accessibility

[Whitley CTR Cecil H]

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Hi Janina,
cingular has a disability page.  The url is:
http://www.cingular.com/about/disability_resources
They've also got a support center with both voice and tty access numbers.
The above url will lead to the info.  I don't know who at AFB is responsible
for the section 255 page, could you see they get this info?  I'll be talking
with them later, in particular I want caller id, so we'll see what they have
to offer.  Voice dialing (*8) is a nice feature though, and goes to show
that accessability for some can be extra features for all.
I'm currently having fun with Motorola trying to get the manual in something
other than pdf.  They claim braille/large print/audio for all and ascii for
some phones.  
Thanks,
Cecil

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Re: Mobile Accessibility

[Janina Sajka]

No, they didn't force you, but they didn't exactly give you an
accessible option and the law says they should when "readily
achievable." So, it comes down to is TTS readily achievable?

As a matter of course, you pretty much have to file the complaint twice,
once against the service provider (Cingular in this instance it seems),
and a second time against the manufacturer (Nokia this time). They will
point fingers at each other if you don't.

The thing is that you don't have to work all of that out. We can move
those things forward, but it makes our job a lot easier if consumers
start the ball rolling.

Whitley CTR Cecil H writes:
> From: Whitley CTR Cecil H <WhitleyCH.ctr@cherrypoint.usmc.mil>
> 
>    Hi,
>    I agree it's strange.  The v60i allows voice recognition for phonebook
>    entries.  It took sighted assistance to set them up, but now to phone home
>    all I do is hit the "voice" button and say "home". 
> 
>    Also, who is the complaint against?  Cingulair for example did not "force"
>    me to buy this particular phone.  That selection was mine based on the
>    fact that I could better distinguish the buttons (they're larger)....  In
>    short, this was the best of a bad lot.
> 
>    I guess I need to educate myself.  Any furthur word on any of the website
>    cases? 
>    Cecil

> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup


-- 
	
Janina Sajka
Email: janina@rednote.net		
Phone: (202) 408-8175

Director, Technology Research and Development
American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
http://www.afb.org

Chair, Accessibility Work Group
Free Standards Group
http://accessibility.freestandards.org

RE: Mobile Accessibility

[Whitley CTR Cecil H]

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Hi,
I agree it's strange.  The v60i allows voice recognition for phonebook
entries.  It took sighted assistance to set them up, but now to phone home
all I do is hit the "voice" button and say "home".  
Also, who is the complaint against?  Cingulair for example did not "force"
me to buy this particular phone.  That selection was mine based on the fact
that I could better distinguish the buttons (they're larger)....  In short,
this was the best of a bad lot.
I guess I need to educate myself.  Any furthur word on any of the website
cases?  
Cecil

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