RE: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)

RE: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)

[David Arocho]

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The real question is access.  Neither JAWS nor WINDOW EYES can give full
access to the Windows operating system.  If you get away from the small
number of familiar Microsoft applications, you find that you have to limp
along.  This will be so until speech and Braille and large print access are
built right into the operating system.  Linux is the only operating system
that has a prayer of getting such access built in.  However, until
X-windows is made accessible, Linux will remain a solution for only a few.
If it is not done soon, though, and X-windows gets to challenge Microsoft
for its dominance, blind people will again be left out in the cold.  The
fact is tat, unless some of us get behind it and push and make our own way
to get X-windows accessible, it is not going to get done.  If any of you
are interested in working aggressively toward that end, let me hear from
you privately.  Lists are great for getting people in touch, but they all
tend to go in the direction of griping sessions a la talk radio.  Let's
start doing, as talk is very cheap and time is not on our side.

David Arocho


[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 4715 bytes --]

From: "Richard Villa" <rvilla1@swbell.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Subject: Needs educateingRE: Message from Linux (fwd)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 03:10:42 -0800
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0201220507580.1747-100000@dhcppc2>

For those that have been using Linux for a while.  You may want to send
him an answer with some information that might educate him on Linux and it
capabilities.

Richard


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 21:10:30 +1300
From: Jonathan Mosen <jonathan@outofsight.org.nz>
Reply-To: acb-l@acb.org
To: acb-l@acb.org, 'mary otten' <maryotten@home.com>
Subject: RE: Message from Linux

Mary, music to my ears, music to my ears!

I find this Linux command-line revival really bizarre. With the quality
of Windows screen readers, Windows has opened access to the world of the
PC to blind people who aren't super-techy types. Give me the ability to
tap the ALT key and explore a menu bar in a new application over cryptic
and often huge command line sequences. Give me the ability to select a
file just by pressing the first couple of letters of its name. Give me a
nice dialogue box full of configuration options with check boxes and
radio buttons rather than a file with a long name that you must edit
just so with a text editor that has wacky command sequences. It's also
worth observing that most of the sighted people I know who are using
Linux are running X-Windows, which is a windows-like graphical user
interface that to the best of my knowledge is still out of our reach.

One of the things I am desperate to do is have a face-off with a good
Linux user on the web. I am sure that I could demonstrate that a blind
person using JFW or Windoweyes with Internet Explorer is much more
efficient surfing the web and getting to the information they need than
a Lynx user. This is even more the case now with the new version of
JAWS, which offers excellent header navigation and the speaking of
access keys. Plus, many pages that work perfectly well in IE just ain't
gonna do anything useful in Lynx. Lynx doesn't know about JAVAscript.

And talk to a Linux user about many of the tasks we zip through in
Windows daily, like word processing, sound editing, CD ripping etc. Most
have to admit they load Windows for those things.

Obviously Linux is a great option for some, particularly those who like
going deep under the hood and who have a memory for command lines. But
I'd go as far as saying that for the majority, they'd be horrified if
they found out what a Linux prompt is really like. And I speak as
someone who has used DOS since 1984 and Linux on and off. Linux seems to
be a bit trendy just now, but I'm proud of what we can do in Windows and
how it has empowered so many of us in a way that Linux never could.

Jonathan Mosen:
E-mail and MSN Messenger: jonathan@mosen.org
Work Phone: +64-6-348-8127
Mobile: +64-27-22Mosen (+64-27-226-6736)


-----Original Message-----
From: mary otten [mailto:maryotten@home.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2002 4:42 PM
To: acb-l@acb.org
Subject: Re: Message from Linux


Charlie,
What text program are you running to access the web? Lynx? Very limited,
since it still doesn't do java script. Or is there a newer version that
does? We run emacs with its w3 browser at work as well as lynx. And
there
are scads of intranet pages that are total losers. I really don't think
I'd choose to go back to a text-based browser or even pine for home use.
But more power to those of you who want to keep using them. I can't wait

to be rid of the text-based web browser at work, though. Its really
limiting! Mary



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RE: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)

[David Arocho]

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Thanks for the info.  I would be interested in hearing more about it.  I
will do a search, but if you have a specific site that may be most helpful,
let me know.

My concern is that the efforts underway have ample input from people with
disabilities, and that the accessibility features be built in so that we
don't have to depend on one vendor or another to catch up as the technology
is enhanced.  I am not a techy, but I would like to see a group spring up
which can help fund the current efforts to a degree that will make this
available in the near future.  There have been several efforts in the past,
mainly university projects, that have died on the vine for lack of
financial support.


[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 3152 bytes --]

From: "Thomas Ward" <tward@bright.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Subject: Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 07:15:01 -0800
Message-ID: <002c01c1a35a$2ee49140$0100a8c0@tward>

I take it you don't know much bout the Gnome 2.0 project. Well, here is a
more in depth look at Gnome 2. Which is part of the x-windows system.

1. Gnome 2 is being majorly over halled with speech accessible widgits,
screen reader hooks, and other fixes to make it accessible.
2. synth driver support is being added to support synths for Linux. This
project is called Gnome-speech.
3. the gtk+ language is being modified so that from now on all applications
using the standard gtk+ 2 will come out of the box accessible with
Gnopernicus and other x screen readers like it.

So steps are being taken to make X accessible, but it merely takes time.

----- Original Message -----
From: David Arocho <darocho@earthlink.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 9:08 PM
Subject: RE: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)


> The real question is access.  Neither JAWS nor WINDOW EYES can give full
> access to the Windows operating system.  If you get away from the small
> number of familiar Microsoft applications, you find that you have to limp
> along.  This will be so until speech and Braille and large print access
are
> built right into the operating system.  Linux is the only operating
system
> that has a prayer of getting such access built in.  However, until
> X-windows is made accessible, Linux will remain a solution for only a
few.
> If it is not done soon, though, and X-windows gets to challenge Microsoft
> for its dominance, blind people will again be left out in the cold.  The
> fact is tat, unless some of us get behind it and push and make our own
way
> to get X-windows accessible, it is not going to get done.  If any of you
> are interested in working aggressively toward that end, let me hear from
> you privately.  Lists are great for getting people in touch, but they all
> tend to go in the direction of griping sessions a la talk radio.  Let's
> start doing, as talk is very cheap and time is not on our side.
>
> David Arocho
>
>


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RE: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)

[David Arocho]

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Windows is still the predominant operating system used in business and it
is just unfortunate that there has not been sufficient pressure brought to
bear on Microsoft to make it accessible and affordable for blind and
visually impaired users.  It is not conscionable that one can get a
computer for under five hundred dollars, but Braille and speech access is
available only to those who can afford thousands.  The same thing may
happen with x-windows if we don't get in on the ground floor.  Without
x-windows, or something like it, Linux will never compete with the
Microsofts of the world, and Linux will remain a tool in the hands of a
minority.


[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 2508 bytes --]

From: "Raul A. Gallegos" <raul@asmodean.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Subject: Re: Needs educateingRE: Message from Linux (fwd)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 07:33:08 -0800
Message-ID: <20020122153308.GB29522@asmodean.net>

I agree with Kirk.  Linux is simply not for everyone.  Although I use
Linux for 90% of my computer tasks I still use Windows for that 10%.
That 10% mainly consists of online banking/billing because of the java.
I do find the access that I get with Window-Eyes and Internet Explorer
to be very nice.  As to the comments on sound editing and cd ripping I
know it can be done in Linux but I personally am not into it so don't
know how easy it would be.  I'm sure anything within reason can be done
in Linux and in time everything will be easy for blind users.

I personally don't mind the editing of config files, command line, etc
but I agree that some people who have never been exposed to it will be
hard-pressed to try it.  Also others  who may have used command line
utilities such as dos may look at how "easy" their world has been and
not want to go back to more typing.  Still, others may just be lazy and
want an OS to control their computer without their say-so.  *lol*

-- 
We are writing this e-mail to inform you that the mail server is down.
Please do not call the help desk for assistance.  To see the progress of
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RE: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)

[David Arocho]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1273 bytes --]

Hi, Charlie,
I am sure there are others on the list better qualified to answer specific
questions about x-windows.  I know a number of popular applications -
WordPerfect being perhaps he most notable, have been ported to x-windows.
I recall as far back as 1989 or so, there had been attempts to make the
system accessible for blind users.  I recall a presentation at a national
convention where they were using a system of speakers to simulate virtual
rooms as a means of accessing the directory structure.  I believe it was
not till the advent of Linux that x-windows has been coming into its own as
an alternative graphical user interface.  Some of the models used to
develop windows screen readers were first developed for x-windows, though,
long before Linux.

As you know, although I have been using computers since I bought the Texas
Instruments home computer (I think it was called the TI-99-4 something),
which came with a speech synthesizer and Basic - back in the  early 1980s -
I am not a techy.  I like a lot of the windows features, I like the old DOS
command driven interface, and I like to dabble with Linux.  One day the
computer will be as easy to use as the telephone; let's try to make sure
that when that day arrives the blind are not left out.

David


[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 1697 bytes --]

From: "Charles Crawford" <ccrawford@acb.org>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Subject: RE: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 08:25:08 -0800
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020122112305.01f72890@198.144.194.210>

Hey Dave,

	Good to see you on this list.  I wonder if there are some folks out there
familiar with XWindows to share the kind of navigation that goes on with
it?  I have no idea.  Is it the same icons and rdio buttons and all of
tht?  How is it different than windows and how much more easy would access
be to develop in the XWindows environment?  These are important questions
to your point I imagine.

-- charlie Crawford.


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Needs educateingRE: Message from Linux (fwd)

[Richard Villa]

For those that have been using Linux for a while.  You may want to send 
him an answer with some information that might educate him on Linux and it 
capabilities.

Richard


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 21:10:30 +1300
From: Jonathan Mosen <jonathan@outofsight.org.nz>
Reply-To: acb-l@acb.org
To: acb-l@acb.org, 'mary otten' <maryotten@home.com>
Subject: RE: Message from Linux

Mary, music to my ears, music to my ears!

I find this Linux command-line revival really bizarre. With the quality
of Windows screen readers, Windows has opened access to the world of the
PC to blind people who aren't super-techy types. Give me the ability to
tap the ALT key and explore a menu bar in a new application over cryptic
and often huge command line sequences. Give me the ability to select a
file just by pressing the first couple of letters of its name. Give me a
nice dialogue box full of configuration options with check boxes and
radio buttons rather than a file with a long name that you must edit
just so with a text editor that has wacky command sequences. It's also
worth observing that most of the sighted people I know who are using
Linux are running X-Windows, which is a windows-like graphical user
interface that to the best of my knowledge is still out of our reach.

One of the things I am desperate to do is have a face-off with a good
Linux user on the web. I am sure that I could demonstrate that a blind
person using JFW or Windoweyes with Internet Explorer is much more
efficient surfing the web and getting to the information they need than
a Lynx user. This is even more the case now with the new version of
JAWS, which offers excellent header navigation and the speaking of
access keys. Plus, many pages that work perfectly well in IE just ain't
gonna do anything useful in Lynx. Lynx doesn't know about JAVAscript.

And talk to a Linux user about many of the tasks we zip through in
Windows daily, like word processing, sound editing, CD ripping etc. Most
have to admit they load Windows for those things.

Obviously Linux is a great option for some, particularly those who like
going deep under the hood and who have a memory for command lines. But
I'd go as far as saying that for the majority, they'd be horrified if
they found out what a Linux prompt is really like. And I speak as
someone who has used DOS since 1984 and Linux on and off. Linux seems to
be a bit trendy just now, but I'm proud of what we can do in Windows and
how it has empowered so many of us in a way that Linux never could.

Jonathan Mosen:
E-mail and MSN Messenger: jonathan@mosen.org
Work Phone: +64-6-348-8127
Mobile: +64-27-22Mosen (+64-27-226-6736)
 

-----Original Message-----
From: mary otten [mailto:maryotten@home.com] 
Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2002 4:42 PM
To: acb-l@acb.org
Subject: Re: Message from Linux


Charlie,
What text program are you running to access the web? Lynx? Very limited,
since it still doesn't do java script. Or is there a newer version that
does? We run emacs with its w3 browser at work as well as lynx. And
there 
are scads of intranet pages that are total losers. I really don't think
I'd choose to go back to a text-based browser or even pine for home use.
But more power to those of you who want to keep using them. I can't wait

to be rid of the text-based web browser at work, though. Its really
limiting! Mary



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Re: Needs educateingRE: Message from Linux (fwd)

[Kirk Wood]

On Tue, 22 Jan 2002, Richard Villa wrote:
> For those that have been using Linux for a while.  You may want to send 
> him an answer with some information that might educate him on Linux and it 
> capabilities.

Lets first start here. Linux is not for the masses. Again, the new
mantra: Linux is not for the masses.

I say the above as one who enjoys Linux. Unless or until there is access
in Xwindows there is so much truth to what he says. Java-script is not an
evil plot. It will not go away. There are good reasons for it. But aside
from all that, Linux still won't be for the masses.

Guess what? There are things that are easier in windows. And I say that as
someone who knows a lot of what he is doing in both places.

=========
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.

Re: Needs educateingRE: Message from Linux (fwd)

[Thomas Ward]

Amen Kirk. That is the truth. Linux is a great os, but I know Windows users
who simply can not understand how the command line works.
If they don't have a button, icon, etc they are lost. I've tried showing
them, and they get confused.
So as a heavy user of both I can clearly see the advantages and
disadvantages to both operating systems.

----- Original Message -----
From: Kirk Wood <cpt.kirk@1tree.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 8:44 AM
Subject: Re: Needs educateingRE: Message from Linux (fwd)


> On Tue, 22 Jan 2002, Richard Villa wrote:
> > For those that have been using Linux for a while.  You may want to send
> > him an answer with some information that might educate him on Linux and
it
> > capabilities.
>
> Lets first start here. Linux is not for the masses. Again, the new
> mantra: Linux is not for the masses.
>
> I say the above as one who enjoys Linux. Unless or until there is access
> in Xwindows there is so much truth to what he says. Java-script is not an
> evil plot. It will not go away. There are good reasons for it. But aside
> from all that, Linux still won't be for the masses.
>
> Guess what? There are things that are easier in windows. And I say that as
> someone who knows a lot of what he is doing in both places.
>
> =========
> Kirk Wood
> Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
>
> Nowlan's Theory:
>         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
>         the next freeway exit.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Needs educateingRE: Message from Linux (fwd)

[Charles Hallenbeck]

I understand there are some people who can read but prefer books
with pictures in them, like comic books.

On Tue, 22 Jan 2002, Thomas Ward wrote:

> Amen Kirk. That is the truth. Linux is a great os, but I know Windows users
> who simply can not understand how the command line works.
> If they don't have a button, icon, etc they are lost. I've tried showing
> them, and they get confused.
> So as a heavy user of both I can clearly see the advantages and
> disadvantages to both operating systems.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Kirk Wood <cpt.kirk@1tree.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 8:44 AM
> Subject: Re: Needs educateingRE: Message from Linux (fwd)
>
>
> > On Tue, 22 Jan 2002, Richard Villa wrote:
> > > For those that have been using Linux for a while.  You may want to send
> > > him an answer with some information that might educate him on Linux and
> it
> > > capabilities.
> >
> > Lets first start here. Linux is not for the masses. Again, the new
> > mantra: Linux is not for the masses.
> >
> > I say the above as one who enjoys Linux. Unless or until there is access
> > in Xwindows there is so much truth to what he says. Java-script is not an
> > evil plot. It will not go away. There are good reasons for it. But aside
> > from all that, Linux still won't be for the masses.
> >
> > Guess what? There are things that are easier in windows. And I say that as
> > someone who knows a lot of what he is doing in both places.
> >
> > =========
> > Kirk Wood
> > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
> >
> > Nowlan's Theory:
> >         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
> >         the next freeway exit.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*
Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh
The Moon is Waxing Gibbous (59% of Full)

Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)

[Thomas Ward]

I take it you don't know much bout the Gnome 2.0 project. Well, here is a
more in depth look at Gnome 2. Which is part of the x-windows system.

1. Gnome 2 is being majorly over halled with speech accessible widgits,
screen reader hooks, and other fixes to make it accessible.
2. synth driver support is being added to support synths for Linux. This
project is called Gnome-speech.
3. the gtk+ language is being modified so that from now on all applications
using the standard gtk+ 2 will come out of the box accessible with
Gnopernicus and other x screen readers like it.

So steps are being taken to make X accessible, but it merely takes time.

----- Original Message -----
From: David Arocho <darocho@earthlink.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 9:08 PM
Subject: RE: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)


> The real question is access.  Neither JAWS nor WINDOW EYES can give full
> access to the Windows operating system.  If you get away from the small
> number of familiar Microsoft applications, you find that you have to limp
> along.  This will be so until speech and Braille and large print access
are
> built right into the operating system.  Linux is the only operating system
> that has a prayer of getting such access built in.  However, until
> X-windows is made accessible, Linux will remain a solution for only a few.
> If it is not done soon, though, and X-windows gets to challenge Microsoft
> for its dominance, blind people will again be left out in the cold.  The
> fact is tat, unless some of us get behind it and push and make our own way
> to get X-windows accessible, it is not going to get done.  If any of you
> are interested in working aggressively toward that end, let me hear from
> you privately.  Lists are great for getting people in touch, but they all
> tend to go in the direction of griping sessions a la talk radio.  Let's
> start doing, as talk is very cheap and time is not on our side.
>
> David Arocho
>
>

Re: Needs educateingRE: Message from Linux (fwd)

[Raul A. Gallegos]

I agree with Kirk.  Linux is simply not for everyone.  Although I use
Linux for 90% of my computer tasks I still use Windows for that 10%.
That 10% mainly consists of online banking/billing because of the java.
I do find the access that I get with Window-Eyes and Internet Explorer
to be very nice.  As to the comments on sound editing and cd ripping I
know it can be done in Linux but I personally am not into it so don't
know how easy it would be.  I'm sure anything within reason can be done
in Linux and in time everything will be easy for blind users.

I personally don't mind the editing of config files, command line, etc
but I agree that some people who have never been exposed to it will be
hard-pressed to try it.  Also others  who may have used command line
utilities such as dos may look at how "easy" their world has been and
not want to go back to more typing.  Still, others may just be lazy and
want an OS to control their computer without their say-so.  *lol*

-- 
We are writing this e-mail to inform you that the mail server is down.
Please do not call the help desk for assistance.  To see the progress of
any outage refer to your e-mail notifications.
Raul A. Gallegos - http://www.asmodean.net

Re: Needs educateingRE: Message from Linux (fwd)

[Thomas Ward]

That's eesentually what it boils down to. Ease of use. Windows Eyes and Jaws
are populare because they can press a key and wam all the links appear in a
list. Then, you can press the first letter of the link, and you jump to it.
However, one of the best kept secrets of lynx is its number links option.

lynx -number_links www.website.com


When that happens all the links are asigned a number, and by entering that
number you can jump to it just as you could with Jaws or Window Eyes in
Windows with their fancy hot keys.

Editing wavs is easier under Windows, but ripping cd's is easy with the
right program.




----- Original Message -----
From: Raul A. Gallegos <raul@asmodean.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 10:33 AM
Subject: Re: Needs educateingRE: Message from Linux (fwd)


> I agree with Kirk.  Linux is simply not for everyone.  Although I use
> Linux for 90% of my computer tasks I still use Windows for that 10%.
> That 10% mainly consists of online banking/billing because of the java.
> I do find the access that I get with Window-Eyes and Internet Explorer
> to be very nice.  As to the comments on sound editing and cd ripping I
> know it can be done in Linux but I personally am not into it so don't
> know how easy it would be.  I'm sure anything within reason can be done
> in Linux and in time everything will be easy for blind users.
>
> I personally don't mind the editing of config files, command line, etc
> but I agree that some people who have never been exposed to it will be
> hard-pressed to try it.  Also others  who may have used command line
> utilities such as dos may look at how "easy" their world has been and
> not want to go back to more typing.  Still, others may just be lazy and
> want an OS to control their computer without their say-so.  *lol*
>
> --
> We are writing this e-mail to inform you that the mail server is down.
> Please do not call the help desk for assistance.  To see the progress of
> any outage refer to your e-mail notifications.
> Raul A. Gallegos - http://www.asmodean.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

RE: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)

[Charles Crawford]

Hey Dave,

	Good to see you on this list.  I wonder if there are some folks out there 
familiar with XWindows to share the kind of navigation that goes on with 
it?  I have no idea.  Is it the same icons and rdio buttons and all of 
tht?  How is it different than windows and how much more easy would access 
be to develop in the XWindows environment?  These are important questions 
to your point I imagine.

-- charlie Crawford.

RE: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)

[Charles Hallenbeck]

I am inclined to agree with Gena on this one...

There are some very persuasive arguments contained in a two hour
lecture by Richard Stallman, founder of the Free Software
Foundation, available for download from speakup goodies audio
page in two parts:

ftp://ftp.braille.uwo.ca/pub/linux/goodies/audio-files/rms-nyu1.ogg

and
ftp://ftp.braille.uwo.ca/pub/linux/goodies/audio-files/rms-nyu2.ogg

These are audio files in the ogg/vorbis format. The entire
lecture in a more compact ogg/vorbis format is on the speakup
site somewhere, but I cannot find it immediately. The same
lecture in an mp3 format is 16 megs in size - too big to email,
and I do not have access to file space to upload  it. I presume
Windows advocates can play ogg/vorbis  files okay, right?

Chuck


*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*
Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh
The Moon is Waxing Gibbous (60% of Full)

Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)

[Jason]

Actually, being familiar with X myself, I'll answer this one.

Xwindows, is a misnomer, in reality, it's just an X server, and clients. The 
server draws to the screen, and sends user input to the clients. The clients 
are the applications, the clients are usually on the same machine as the 
server, but they don't have to be.

X itself is nothing more than a network protocol for sending graphic data to 
an X workstation, the X protocol has no provisions for button, text box, or 
any widgets for that matter, it has: line, circle, filled circle, rectangle, 
filled rectangle, pixmap, etc...

X also sends keyboard input and mouse click locations to the applications 
that own the windows they occur in.  Beyond that, X's only other capability 
is to send text glyphs (rendered in a given font) back to applications that 
request them.

As for widgets, and controls, and a nice unified API for writing programs, 
you need a "toolkit library". What's a toolkit library you ask? A better 
question might be "what isn't a toolkit library?"
First of all, there are a lot of toolkit libraries out there, some are very 
simple (Athena) while some have a full-blown callback API and can be adjusted 
with themes (GTK, GTK+) and some are object-oriented C++ based APIs (QT). 
They all basically do the same thing, provide functions/objects/structures to 
the application to draw typical GUI widgets, and send draw requests to the X 
server. Here's the hairy part, each toolkit has its own look and feel, has 
its own API, has its own conventions, and basically has its own everything. 

There's also the seperate window manager, which is simply another X client 
which registers a few special functions with the X server so it can get the 
location and owner of each window and add decorations and task switching 
behavior. Some (most) window managers do more than this, but they all do at 
least this.

Windows, on the other had, has the equivalent of the toolkit library and 
window manager built into the kernel (sort of) and most applications either 
use that, or a custom one that is very similar to it.

I'm sure this is incomplete, but I've already been wracking my brain for an 
hour over it, so I'll close here, feel free to ask questions or tell me about 
parts that are unclear.
> 	Good to see you on this list.  I wonder if there are some folks out there
> familiar with XWindows to share the kind of navigation that goes on with
> it?  I have no idea.  Is it the same icons and rdio buttons and all of
> tht?  How is it different than windows and how much more easy would access
> be to develop in the XWindows environment?  These are important questions
> to your point I imagine.
>

Re: Needs educateingRE: Message from Linux (fwd)

[Georgina]

Hi

Well I'm going to stick my head above the parapit.  So knock it off cleanly 
won't you.  <Smile>.

I disagree, Linux will be for the masses as far as the Blinux community is 
concerned, in the future.  Now before you raise your axe:

A friend beta testing for GW Micro proudly informed me that they had a couple 
of developers working on speech with flash.  I pondered, how many people will 
we have when we have the foundations to build upon?  I guess that it will be 
more that any capitalist system can offer.  I fear that many of you are 
forgetting the ethos of the Linux operating system and that the provailing 
economic situations of blind people around the world.  We don't need to knock 
MS because they're introducing new technologies and then attempting to build a 
fix for those of us who need a screen reader.

The whole structure of screen readers has been to engage between the OS and the 
graphic adapter but in XP they've changed that way of working.  As well as 
they're push to secure the copying of the operating system too, is going to 
raise questions within the minds of blind people when they consider upgrading.  We as blind people know only too well, what it is like to be bound with copy protection methods.

I do fear that our community will be become divided by those who have their 
equipment paid for by an employer or Government and those who have to find it 
themselves.

I think that blind people will give Linux a chance when they can use the GUI 
and more development will be undertaken by the Open Source community then 

these small sponges that we know as the adaptive industry.  Yes, they rule the 
day currently.  But just sit back and see where loyalty lies.

Linux as a whole, is at a very interesting point in its development.  My local 
Linux Users Group were discussing this issue a few months ago and someone 
offered this anedote:

At a meeting, someone took a box with one of the rpm packages freshly 
installed.  The new user wanted to set up his dial up service.  A long time 
experienced user went to work looking at scripts editing this way and that way 
but after some time he wasn't getting anywhere.  Anyway another newbie user was 
at the meeting and plucked up the courage and said, "I had the same problem and 
I can show you how I fixed it".  So they invited him to attempt it and within 
a few clicks of the mouse within the X environment, the box was dialing out on 
demand nicely.

So ther's a lot of potential for Linux and it is up to us how we progress.
Gena



>I agree with Kirk.  Linux is simply not for everyone.  Although I use
>Linux for 90% of my computer tasks I still use Windows for that 10%.
>That 10% mainly consists of online banking/billing because of the java.
>I do find the access that I get with Window-Eyes and Internet Explorer
>to be very nice.  As to the comments on sound editing and cd ripping I
>know it can be done in Linux but I personally am not into it so don't
>know how easy it would be.  I'm sure anything within reason can be done
>in Linux and in time everything will be easy for blind users.
>
>I personally don't mind the editing of config files, command line, etc
>but I agree that some people who have never been exposed to it will be
>hard-pressed to try it.  Also others  who may have used command line
>utilities such as dos may look at how "easy" their world has been and
>not want to go back to more typing.  Still, others may just be lazy and
>want an OS to control their computer without their say-so.  *lol*
>
>-- 
>We are writing this e-mail to inform you that the mail server is down.
>Please do not call the help desk for assistance.  To see the progress of
>any outage refer to your e-mail notifications.
>Raul A. Gallegos - http://www.asmodean.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

RE: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)

[Amanda Lee]

I would like to suggest that someone coordinate with Jonathan M and ask
him to host a Mainstream or other  show from teh acb.org acbradio site
such that some who can present the true facts behind how Linux is truly a
more open access approach.  Although Linux may not become everyone's
personal choice, it's  meaningful to at least present well-founded
information.

I can hear Mr. Crawford cheer! well I hope so!

Amanda Lee

RE: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)

[Kirk Wood]

First, the people who are really driving linux ae not in a compitition
with m$. They are trying to create the best platform for computing that
they can. It just happens that they end up being compared to windows. They
certainly wish to be better and faster as this is one indication when they
are at least in the ball park.

As for getting in on the ground floor, I suppose you again can sit and
whine. Or you can go check out and offer what you can to help a project
out. All the talk of getting in on the ground floor though is kind of in
the face of reality. X windows has been arround for awhile now. Gnome has
been arround for awhile. It does happen that speech is being included on
the major re-write of gnome. There are many things being included that
previously weren't.

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.

RE: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)

[Kirk Wood]

On Tue, 22 Jan 2002, Charles Crawford wrote:
> ... I wonder if there are some folks out there 
> familiar with XWindows to share the kind of navigation that goes on with 
> it?  ...

Hmm, this is a bit of a tricky question. The short answer is that things
are enough like m$ winblows that people quickly adapt. A bit longer is
that keyboard shortcuts are limited in the window managers I have used.

This being said, I think that once a windows manager has been made
accessible, then most applications will be as well. I don't think you will
see the m$ situation where some apps are and some are not. The thing is
that in X, one can choose the window manager (or shell) of the
system. Many of these include the ability to add skins to customize the
look (and sometimes even feel) of the system. Apps that don't behave with
the skins aren't popular. Thus a button will be a button more often. In
the m$ world, often companies make their own button which isn't
recognized. This doesn't happen as much in X as it would then crash out
with other window managers or not conform to the skin. You see one can
change their buttons from being rectangles into being ovals. They can
change them from flat to raised. If this happens correctly, it is
reasonable to think that one could use the same info to tell what it is
for speech.

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.

Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)

[Charles Crawford]

         Thanks.  I understand what you are saying.  Does this mean that 
there would not be a fix for X-Windows like the MSAA in Windows?  Would we 
need some kind of major off-screen model?

-- charlie Crawford.

At 11:09 AM 1/22/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Actually, being familiar with X myself, I'll answer this one.
>
>Xwindows, is a misnomer, in reality, it's just an X server, and clients. The
>server draws to the screen, and sends user input to the clients. The clients
>are the applications, the clients are usually on the same machine as the
>server, but they don't have to be.
>
>X itself is nothing more than a network protocol for sending graphic data to
>an X workstation, the X protocol has no provisions for button, text box, or
>any widgets for that matter, it has: line, circle, filled circle, rectangle,
>filled rectangle, pixmap, etc...
>
>X also sends keyboard input and mouse click locations to the applications
>that own the windows they occur in.  Beyond that, X's only other capability
>is to send text glyphs (rendered in a given font) back to applications that
>request them.
>
>As for widgets, and controls, and a nice unified API for writing programs,
>you need a "toolkit library". What's a toolkit library you ask? A better
>question might be "what isn't a toolkit library?"
>First of all, there are a lot of toolkit libraries out there, some are very
>simple (Athena) while some have a full-blown callback API and can be adjusted
>with themes (GTK, GTK+) and some are object-oriented C++ based APIs (QT).
>They all basically do the same thing, provide functions/objects/structures to
>the application to draw typical GUI widgets, and send draw requests to the X
>server. Here's the hairy part, each toolkit has its own look and feel, has
>its own API, has its own conventions, and basically has its own everything.
>
>There's also the seperate window manager, which is simply another X client
>which registers a few special functions with the X server so it can get the
>location and owner of each window and add decorations and task switching
>behavior. Some (most) window managers do more than this, but they all do at
>least this.
>
>Windows, on the other had, has the equivalent of the toolkit library and
>window manager built into the kernel (sort of) and most applications either
>use that, or a custom one that is very similar to it.
>
>I'm sure this is incomplete, but I've already been wracking my brain for an
>hour over it, so I'll close here, feel free to ask questions or tell me about
>parts that are unclear.
> >       Good to see you on this list.  I wonder if there are some folks 
> out there
> > familiar with XWindows to share the kind of navigation that goes on with
> > it?  I have no idea.  Is it the same icons and rdio buttons and all of
> > tht?  How is it different than windows and how much more easy would access
> > be to develop in the XWindows environment?  These are important questions
> > to your point I imagine.
> >
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)

[Kirk Wood]

On Tue, 22 Jan 2002, Charles Crawford wrote:
>          Thanks.  I understand what you are saying.  Does this mean that 
> there would not be a fix for X-Windows like the MSAA in Windows?  Would we 
> need some kind of major off-screen model?

Actually, I think the point is to put the hooks where they really
belong. Understand there will be some advantages and some limitations. To
start, you will have to use gnome. There are many other window managers,
but you will have to use gnome. But if you do use gnome, there won't be a
need for something like msaa. 

Msaa is a crutch for what should have been done. As for off scren models
and the like, I don't personally know. I think that some of that was bable
to impress people quite honestly.

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.

Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)

[Geoff Shang]

On Tue, 22 Jan 2002, Charles Crawford wrote:

>          Thanks.  I understand what you are saying.  Does this mean that
> there would not be a fix for X-Windows like the MSAA in Windows?  Would we
> need some kind of major off-screen model?

The point here is that the fix would not be in X as such, but in whatever
desktop environment you chose to use, such as gnome or KDE.  Personally,
I'd like to see KDE accessibal too.  It's not that I have a preference, but
choice is always good and it's the other big player.

Geoff.

RE: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)

[Geoff Shang]

On Tue, 22 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:

> I would like to suggest that someone coordinate with Jonathan M and ask
> him to host a Mainstream or other  show from teh acb.org acbradio site
> such that some who can present the true facts behind how Linux is truly a
> more open access approach.  Although Linux may not become everyone's
> personal choice, it's  meaningful to at least present well-founded
> information.

FWIW, I wrote to Jonathan privately.  I know the guy pretty well.  I'd be
happy to post what I sent to him.  For me, it wasn't the usability aspect
of what he wrote that got me, since that is surely a matter of personal
preference.  What did get me was the opinion that what could be done was
much less efficient and that it was his opinion that less could be done
than was actually true.  So I wrote back to him and corrected some of his
assertions.  I offered to take up his challenge, I hope he follows through
with it.

Geoff.

RE: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)

[Geoff Shang]

On Tue, 22 Jan 2002, Charles Hallenbeck wrote:

> I presume
> Windows advocates can play ogg/vorbis  files okay, right?

Yes, there is a winamp plugin that is linked to from vorbis.com.  I must
grab that lecture and re-encode it smaller in vorbis, now that I have the
bandwidth and the space to do that.

Geoff.

Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)

[Georgina]

Hi

Here's how I see it, I might be entirely wrong but its how I understand things:

You want to eat some cake?  Well you can buy a uniform one off the shelf.  
The one you buy today will taste the same as the one you buy next week.  You 
can't really change any aspect of it.

However, you can make one yourself and you can choose which of the many 
available parts to make up your whole.  You can gather a variety of 
parts or can even go back as far as growing them yourself.  Thus you don't have 
to spread your cake with jam to make it palatable, you just make it to fit 
your taste.  If X is the flour, eggs and butter.  Gnome and KDE are different 
combinations of fruit or other flavourings.

Jam here in the UK means fruit preserve, I think that it is known as jelly in 
other parts.

Gena



>         Thanks.  I understand what you are saying.  Does this mean that 
>there would not be a fix for X-Windows like the MSAA in Windows?  Would we 
>need some kind of major off-screen model?
>
>-- charlie Crawford.
>
>At 11:09 AM 1/22/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>Actually, being familiar with X myself, I'll answer this one.
>>
>>Xwindows, is a misnomer, in reality, it's just an X server, and clients. The
>>server draws to the screen, and sends user input to the clients. The clients
>>are the applications, the clients are usually on the same machine as the
>>server, but they don't have to be.
>>
>>X itself is nothing more than a network protocol for sending graphic data to
>>an X workstation, the X protocol has no provisions for button, text box, or
>>any widgets for that matter, it has: line, circle, filled circle, rectangle,
>>filled rectangle, pixmap, etc...
>>
>>X also sends keyboard input and mouse click locations to the applications
>>that own the windows they occur in.  Beyond that, X's only other capability
>>is to send text glyphs (rendered in a given font) back to applications that
>>request them.
>>
>>As for widgets, and controls, and a nice unified API for writing programs,
>>you need a "toolkit library". What's a toolkit library you ask? A better
>>question might be "what isn't a toolkit library?"
>>First of all, there are a lot of toolkit libraries out there, some are very
>>simple (Athena) while some have a full-blown callback API and can be adjusted
>>with themes (GTK, GTK+) and some are object-oriented C++ based APIs (QT).
>>They all basically do the same thing, provide functions/objects/structures to
>>the application to draw typical GUI widgets, and send draw requests to the X
>>server. Here's the hairy part, each toolkit has its own look and feel, has
>>its own API, has its own conventions, and basically has its own everything.
>>
>>There's also the seperate window manager, which is simply another X client
>>which registers a few special functions with the X server so it can get the
>>location and owner of each window and add decorations and task switching
>>behavior. Some (most) window managers do more than this, but they all do at
>>least this.
>>
>>Windows, on the other had, has the equivalent of the toolkit library and
>>window manager built into the kernel (sort of) and most applications either
>>use that, or a custom one that is very similar to it.
>>
>>I'm sure this is incomplete, but I've already been wracking my brain for an
>>hour over it, so I'll close here, feel free to ask questions or tell me about
>>parts that are unclear.
>> >       Good to see you on this list.  I wonder if there are some folks 
>> out there
>> > familiar with XWindows to share the kind of navigation that goes on with
>> > it?  I have no idea.  Is it the same icons and rdio buttons and all of
>> > tht?  How is it different than windows and how much more easy would access
>> > be to develop in the XWindows environment?  These are important questions
>> > to your point I imagine.
>> >
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Speakup mailing list
>>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)

[Thomas Ward]

Hi. Wo, hold on here!

Ok, let me explain what we are doing with Gnome to clarify things. First,
the gtk tool kit, from which Gnome is written in,  is being rewritten so
that anyone using the standard controls, widgets, etc will build accessible
apps from the get go. Gnome has also been upgraded with speech hooks that
will tell the screen reader what is being presented. Finally, Sun will be
introducing something like the Java Access bridge so that Gnopernicus can
handle Java applications under Linux. Does this clear things up?

----- Original Message -----
From: Charles Crawford <ccrawford@acb.org>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)


>          Thanks.  I understand what you are saying.  Does this mean that
> there would not be a fix for X-Windows like the MSAA in Windows?  Would we
> need some kind of major off-screen model?
>
> -- charlie Crawford.
>
> At 11:09 AM 1/22/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >Actually, being familiar with X myself, I'll answer this one.
> >
> >Xwindows, is a misnomer, in reality, it's just an X server, and clients.
The
> >server draws to the screen, and sends user input to the clients. The
clients
> >are the applications, the clients are usually on the same machine as the
> >server, but they don't have to be.
> >
> >X itself is nothing more than a network protocol for sending graphic data
to
> >an X workstation, the X protocol has no provisions for button, text box,
or
> >any widgets for that matter, it has: line, circle, filled circle,
rectangle,
> >filled rectangle, pixmap, etc...
> >
> >X also sends keyboard input and mouse click locations to the applications
> >that own the windows they occur in.  Beyond that, X's only other
capability
> >is to send text glyphs (rendered in a given font) back to applications
that
> >request them.
> >
> >As for widgets, and controls, and a nice unified API for writing
programs,
> >you need a "toolkit library". What's a toolkit library you ask? A better
> >question might be "what isn't a toolkit library?"
> >First of all, there are a lot of toolkit libraries out there, some are
very
> >simple (Athena) while some have a full-blown callback API and can be
adjusted
> >with themes (GTK, GTK+) and some are object-oriented C++ based APIs (QT).
> >They all basically do the same thing, provide
functions/objects/structures to
> >the application to draw typical GUI widgets, and send draw requests to
the X
> >server. Here's the hairy part, each toolkit has its own look and feel,
has
> >its own API, has its own conventions, and basically has its own
everything.
> >
> >There's also the seperate window manager, which is simply another X
client
> >which registers a few special functions with the X server so it can get
the
> >location and owner of each window and add decorations and task switching
> >behavior. Some (most) window managers do more than this, but they all do
at
> >least this.
> >
> >Windows, on the other had, has the equivalent of the toolkit library and
> >window manager built into the kernel (sort of) and most applications
either
> >use that, or a custom one that is very similar to it.
> >
> >I'm sure this is incomplete, but I've already been wracking my brain for
an
> >hour over it, so I'll close here, feel free to ask questions or tell me
about
> >parts that are unclear.
> > >       Good to see you on this list.  I wonder if there are some folks
> > out there
> > > familiar with XWindows to share the kind of navigation that goes on
with
> > > it?  I have no idea.  Is it the same icons and rdio buttons and all of
> > > tht?  How is it different than windows and how much more easy would
access
> > > be to develop in the XWindows environment?  These are important
questions
> > > to your point I imagine.
> > >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)

[Amanda Lee]

So in broad terms, the features are equivalent to MSAA?  However, there's a
cleaner interface than what MSAA provides because of the overal
standardization of what is already standardized in Linux???


Amanda Lee

----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Ward" <tward@bright.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 7:43 PM
Subject: Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)


> Hi. Wo, hold on here!
>
> Ok, let me explain what we are doing with Gnome to clarify things. First,
> the gtk tool kit, from which Gnome is written in,  is being rewritten so
> that anyone using the standard controls, widgets, etc will build
accessible
> apps from the get go. Gnome has also been upgraded with speech hooks that
> will tell the screen reader what is being presented. Finally, Sun will be
> introducing something like the Java Access bridge so that Gnopernicus can
> handle Java applications under Linux. Does this clear things up?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Charles Crawford <ccrawford@acb.org>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 2:27 PM
> Subject: Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)
>
>
> >          Thanks.  I understand what you are saying.  Does this mean that
> > there would not be a fix for X-Windows like the MSAA in Windows?  Would
we
> > need some kind of major off-screen model?
> >
> > -- charlie Crawford.
> >
> > At 11:09 AM 1/22/02 -0700, you wrote:
> > >Actually, being familiar with X myself, I'll answer this one.
> > >
> > >Xwindows, is a misnomer, in reality, it's just an X server, and
clients.
> The
> > >server draws to the screen, and sends user input to the clients. The
> clients
> > >are the applications, the clients are usually on the same machine as
the
> > >server, but they don't have to be.
> > >
> > >X itself is nothing more than a network protocol for sending graphic
data
> to
> > >an X workstation, the X protocol has no provisions for button, text
box,
> or
> > >any widgets for that matter, it has: line, circle, filled circle,
> rectangle,
> > >filled rectangle, pixmap, etc...
> > >
> > >X also sends keyboard input and mouse click locations to the
applications
> > >that own the windows they occur in.  Beyond that, X's only other
> capability
> > >is to send text glyphs (rendered in a given font) back to applications
> that
> > >request them.
> > >
> > >As for widgets, and controls, and a nice unified API for writing
> programs,
> > >you need a "toolkit library". What's a toolkit library you ask? A
better
> > >question might be "what isn't a toolkit library?"
> > >First of all, there are a lot of toolkit libraries out there, some are
> very
> > >simple (Athena) while some have a full-blown callback API and can be
> adjusted
> > >with themes (GTK, GTK+) and some are object-oriented C++ based APIs
(QT).
> > >They all basically do the same thing, provide
> functions/objects/structures to
> > >the application to draw typical GUI widgets, and send draw requests to
> the X
> > >server. Here's the hairy part, each toolkit has its own look and feel,
> has
> > >its own API, has its own conventions, and basically has its own
> everything.
> > >
> > >There's also the seperate window manager, which is simply another X
> client
> > >which registers a few special functions with the X server so it can get
> the
> > >location and owner of each window and add decorations and task
switching
> > >behavior. Some (most) window managers do more than this, but they all
do
> at
> > >least this.
> > >
> > >Windows, on the other had, has the equivalent of the toolkit library
and
> > >window manager built into the kernel (sort of) and most applications
> either
> > >use that, or a custom one that is very similar to it.
> > >
> > >I'm sure this is incomplete, but I've already been wracking my brain
for
> an
> > >hour over it, so I'll close here, feel free to ask questions or tell me
> about
> > >parts that are unclear.
> > > >       Good to see you on this list.  I wonder if there are some
folks
> > > out there
> > > > familiar with XWindows to share the kind of navigation that goes on
> with
> > > > it?  I have no idea.  Is it the same icons and rdio buttons and all
of
> > > > tht?  How is it different than windows and how much more easy would
> access
> > > > be to develop in the XWindows environment?  These are important
> questions
> > > > to your point I imagine.
> > > >
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Speakup mailing list
> > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)

[Thomas Ward]

Hi, let me come at this from another angle. In the Windows world a piece of
software is written, and the company then expects the screen reader
manufacturer to modify their screen reader to support their app. Some such
as Microslop include MSAA support to help the screen reader along after the
fact.
In Gnome 2 we want to write the screen reader, and sstandardize all the tool
kits, documentation, and even the sample source code to clearly show someone
how to write an an accessible app, or to upgrade their app so that it works
with Gnopernicus. So rather than making the screen reader work with the app
we want the desktop and apps to work with the screen reader.

----- Original Message -----
From: Amanda Lee <amanda@shellworld.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 8:00 PM
Subject: Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)


> So in broad terms, the features are equivalent to MSAA?  However, there's
a
> cleaner interface than what MSAA provides because of the overal
> standardization of what is already standardized in Linux???
>
>
> Amanda Lee
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Thomas Ward" <tward@bright.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 7:43 PM
> Subject: Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)
>
>
> > Hi. Wo, hold on here!
> >
> > Ok, let me explain what we are doing with Gnome to clarify things.
First,
> > the gtk tool kit, from which Gnome is written in,  is being rewritten so
> > that anyone using the standard controls, widgets, etc will build
> accessible
> > apps from the get go. Gnome has also been upgraded with speech hooks
that
> > will tell the screen reader what is being presented. Finally, Sun will
be
> > introducing something like the Java Access bridge so that Gnopernicus
can
> > handle Java applications under Linux. Does this clear things up?
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Charles Crawford <ccrawford@acb.org>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 2:27 PM
> > Subject: Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)
> >
> >
> > >          Thanks.  I understand what you are saying.  Does this mean
that
> > > there would not be a fix for X-Windows like the MSAA in Windows?
Would
> we
> > > need some kind of major off-screen model?
> > >
> > > -- charlie Crawford.
> > >
> > > At 11:09 AM 1/22/02 -0700, you wrote:
> > > >Actually, being familiar with X myself, I'll answer this one.
> > > >
> > > >Xwindows, is a misnomer, in reality, it's just an X server, and
> clients.
> > The
> > > >server draws to the screen, and sends user input to the clients. The
> > clients
> > > >are the applications, the clients are usually on the same machine as
> the
> > > >server, but they don't have to be.
> > > >
> > > >X itself is nothing more than a network protocol for sending graphic
> data
> > to
> > > >an X workstation, the X protocol has no provisions for button, text
> box,
> > or
> > > >any widgets for that matter, it has: line, circle, filled circle,
> > rectangle,
> > > >filled rectangle, pixmap, etc...
> > > >
> > > >X also sends keyboard input and mouse click locations to the
> applications
> > > >that own the windows they occur in.  Beyond that, X's only other
> > capability
> > > >is to send text glyphs (rendered in a given font) back to
applications
> > that
> > > >request them.
> > > >
> > > >As for widgets, and controls, and a nice unified API for writing
> > programs,
> > > >you need a "toolkit library". What's a toolkit library you ask? A
> better
> > > >question might be "what isn't a toolkit library?"
> > > >First of all, there are a lot of toolkit libraries out there, some
are
> > very
> > > >simple (Athena) while some have a full-blown callback API and can be
> > adjusted
> > > >with themes (GTK, GTK+) and some are object-oriented C++ based APIs
> (QT).
> > > >They all basically do the same thing, provide
> > functions/objects/structures to
> > > >the application to draw typical GUI widgets, and send draw requests
to
> > the X
> > > >server. Here's the hairy part, each toolkit has its own look and
feel,
> > has
> > > >its own API, has its own conventions, and basically has its own
> > everything.
> > > >
> > > >There's also the seperate window manager, which is simply another X
> > client
> > > >which registers a few special functions with the X server so it can
get
> > the
> > > >location and owner of each window and add decorations and task
> switching
> > > >behavior. Some (most) window managers do more than this, but they all
> do
> > at
> > > >least this.
> > > >
> > > >Windows, on the other had, has the equivalent of the toolkit library
> and
> > > >window manager built into the kernel (sort of) and most applications
> > either
> > > >use that, or a custom one that is very similar to it.
> > > >
> > > >I'm sure this is incomplete, but I've already been wracking my brain
> for
> > an
> > > >hour over it, so I'll close here, feel free to ask questions or tell
me
> > about
> > > >parts that are unclear.
> > > > >       Good to see you on this list.  I wonder if there are some
> folks
> > > > out there
> > > > > familiar with XWindows to share the kind of navigation that goes
on
> > with
> > > > > it?  I have no idea.  Is it the same icons and rdio buttons and
all
> of
> > > > > tht?  How is it different than windows and how much more easy
would
> > access
> > > > > be to develop in the XWindows environment?  These are important
> > questions
> > > > > to your point I imagine.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >_______________________________________________
> > > >Speakup mailing list
> > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)

[Amanda Lee]

Thank you.  I will, if you don't mind, cross post this to the ACB list
because there is some mis-information presented.  This is what I was looking
for ha!  How refreshing from a software developer's background and as a
blind user, how utterly like a breath of clean fresh air!

Amanda Lee

----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Ward" <tward@bright.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 8:35 PM
Subject: Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)


> Hi, let me come at this from another angle. In the Windows world a piece
of
> software is written, and the company then expects the screen reader
> manufacturer to modify their screen reader to support their app. Some such
> as Microslop include MSAA support to help the screen reader along after
the
> fact.
> In Gnome 2 we want to write the screen reader, and sstandardize all the
tool
> kits, documentation, and even the sample source code to clearly show
someone
> how to write an an accessible app, or to upgrade their app so that it
works
> with Gnopernicus. So rather than making the screen reader work with the
app
> we want the desktop and apps to work with the screen reader.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Amanda Lee <amanda@shellworld.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 8:00 PM
> Subject: Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)
>
>
> > So in broad terms, the features are equivalent to MSAA?  However,
there's
> a
> > cleaner interface than what MSAA provides because of the overal
> > standardization of what is already standardized in Linux???
> >
> >
> > Amanda Lee
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Thomas Ward" <tward@bright.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 7:43 PM
> > Subject: Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)
> >
> >
> > > Hi. Wo, hold on here!
> > >
> > > Ok, let me explain what we are doing with Gnome to clarify things.
> First,
> > > the gtk tool kit, from which Gnome is written in,  is being rewritten
so
> > > that anyone using the standard controls, widgets, etc will build
> > accessible
> > > apps from the get go. Gnome has also been upgraded with speech hooks
> that
> > > will tell the screen reader what is being presented. Finally, Sun will
> be
> > > introducing something like the Java Access bridge so that Gnopernicus
> can
> > > handle Java applications under Linux. Does this clear things up?
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Charles Crawford <ccrawford@acb.org>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 2:27 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)
> > >
> > >
> > > >          Thanks.  I understand what you are saying.  Does this mean
> that
> > > > there would not be a fix for X-Windows like the MSAA in Windows?
> Would
> > we
> > > > need some kind of major off-screen model?
> > > >
> > > > -- charlie Crawford.
> > > >
> > > > At 11:09 AM 1/22/02 -0700, you wrote:
> > > > >Actually, being familiar with X myself, I'll answer this one.
> > > > >
> > > > >Xwindows, is a misnomer, in reality, it's just an X server, and
> > clients.
> > > The
> > > > >server draws to the screen, and sends user input to the clients.
The
> > > clients
> > > > >are the applications, the clients are usually on the same machine
as
> > the
> > > > >server, but they don't have to be.
> > > > >
> > > > >X itself is nothing more than a network protocol for sending
graphic
> > data
> > > to
> > > > >an X workstation, the X protocol has no provisions for button, text
> > box,
> > > or
> > > > >any widgets for that matter, it has: line, circle, filled circle,
> > > rectangle,
> > > > >filled rectangle, pixmap, etc...
> > > > >
> > > > >X also sends keyboard input and mouse click locations to the
> > applications
> > > > >that own the windows they occur in.  Beyond that, X's only other
> > > capability
> > > > >is to send text glyphs (rendered in a given font) back to
> applications
> > > that
> > > > >request them.
> > > > >
> > > > >As for widgets, and controls, and a nice unified API for writing
> > > programs,
> > > > >you need a "toolkit library". What's a toolkit library you ask? A
> > better
> > > > >question might be "what isn't a toolkit library?"
> > > > >First of all, there are a lot of toolkit libraries out there, some
> are
> > > very
> > > > >simple (Athena) while some have a full-blown callback API and can
be
> > > adjusted
> > > > >with themes (GTK, GTK+) and some are object-oriented C++ based APIs
> > (QT).
> > > > >They all basically do the same thing, provide
> > > functions/objects/structures to
> > > > >the application to draw typical GUI widgets, and send draw requests
> to
> > > the X
> > > > >server. Here's the hairy part, each toolkit has its own look and
> feel,
> > > has
> > > > >its own API, has its own conventions, and basically has its own
> > > everything.
> > > > >
> > > > >There's also the seperate window manager, which is simply another X
> > > client
> > > > >which registers a few special functions with the X server so it can
> get
> > > the
> > > > >location and owner of each window and add decorations and task
> > switching
> > > > >behavior. Some (most) window managers do more than this, but they
all
> > do
> > > at
> > > > >least this.
> > > > >
> > > > >Windows, on the other had, has the equivalent of the toolkit
library
> > and
> > > > >window manager built into the kernel (sort of) and most
applications
> > > either
> > > > >use that, or a custom one that is very similar to it.
> > > > >
> > > > >I'm sure this is incomplete, but I've already been wracking my
brain
> > for
> > > an
> > > > >hour over it, so I'll close here, feel free to ask questions or
tell
> me
> > > about
> > > > >parts that are unclear.
> > > > > >       Good to see you on this list.  I wonder if there are some
> > folks
> > > > > out there
> > > > > > familiar with XWindows to share the kind of navigation that goes
> on
> > > with
> > > > > > it?  I have no idea.  Is it the same icons and rdio buttons and
> all
> > of
> > > > > > tht?  How is it different than windows and how much more easy
> would
> > > access
> > > > > > be to develop in the XWindows environment?  These are important
> > > questions
> > > > > > to your point I imagine.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >_______________________________________________
> > > > >Speakup mailing list
> > > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)

[Kirk Wood]

One more note in how Gnompernicus will work: Most apps in linux are
written along standardized lines. Most X apps take full advantage of the
widgets provided by the library. Now this is hugely because linux is not
for the masses. The programs are written by geeks for geeks.

When an app fails to use standardized widgets often times it must be
written to fit a particular window manager. But there is also less reason
to want to as the widgets are written with much more flexability then
macroslop equivilants. Instead of wanting to adorn the program with eye
candy from the program the general means is to allow the eye candy to be
applied via the shell.

Put another way, the general users of linux desire to customize the look
of their computer. This extends to all the programs. This is opposed to
the macroslop world where most users wouldn't have a clue. In the m$
world, companies go to great lengths to make their program look a certain
way. This is at the expense of being able to make the entire system look a
certain way. It also happens to be at the expense of the poor screen
reader trying to understand what is presented.

The best thing here is to understand that x and m$ are fundamentally
different just as linux is fundamentally different from dos.

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.

Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)

[Thomas Ward]

Sure go ahead. I think we need to get this cleared up. It is important to
let them know that x is not anything like windows from a programming
standpoint.
Oh, sure the desktops like Gnome have icons, buttons, dialogs, etc however
from a programming standpoint they are completely different.
MSAA was MS's way of making up for closing the barn door after the horse was
out. As Kirk stated in a post Linux tries to standardize all kinds of
things, and that standardization will pay off in the long run fas far as
access is concerned. Assuming Gnopernicus is written properly, and
everything works as expected.

----- Original Message -----
From: Amanda Lee <amanda@shellworld.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 8:45 PM
Subject: Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)


> Thank you.  I will, if you don't mind, cross post this to the ACB list
> because there is some mis-information presented.  This is what I was
looking
> for ha!  How refreshing from a software developer's background and as a
> blind user, how utterly like a breath of clean fresh air!
>
> Amanda Lee
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Thomas Ward" <tward@bright.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 8:35 PM
> Subject: Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)
>
>
> > Hi, let me come at this from another angle. In the Windows world a piece
> of
> > software is written, and the company then expects the screen reader
> > manufacturer to modify their screen reader to support their app. Some
such
> > as Microslop include MSAA support to help the screen reader along after
> the
> > fact.
> > In Gnome 2 we want to write the screen reader, and sstandardize all the
> tool
> > kits, documentation, and even the sample source code to clearly show
> someone
> > how to write an an accessible app, or to upgrade their app so that it
> works
> > with Gnopernicus. So rather than making the screen reader work with the
> app
> > we want the desktop and apps to work with the screen reader.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Amanda Lee <amanda@shellworld.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 8:00 PM
> > Subject: Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)
> >
> >
> > > So in broad terms, the features are equivalent to MSAA?  However,
> there's
> > a
> > > cleaner interface than what MSAA provides because of the overal
> > > standardization of what is already standardized in Linux???
> > >
> > >
> > > Amanda Lee
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Thomas Ward" <tward@bright.net>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 7:43 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi. Wo, hold on here!
> > > >
> > > > Ok, let me explain what we are doing with Gnome to clarify things.
> > First,
> > > > the gtk tool kit, from which Gnome is written in,  is being
rewritten
> so
> > > > that anyone using the standard controls, widgets, etc will build
> > > accessible
> > > > apps from the get go. Gnome has also been upgraded with speech hooks
> > that
> > > > will tell the screen reader what is being presented. Finally, Sun
will
> > be
> > > > introducing something like the Java Access bridge so that
Gnopernicus
> > can
> > > > handle Java applications under Linux. Does this clear things up?
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Charles Crawford <ccrawford@acb.org>
> > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 2:27 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >          Thanks.  I understand what you are saying.  Does this
mean
> > that
> > > > > there would not be a fix for X-Windows like the MSAA in Windows?
> > Would
> > > we
> > > > > need some kind of major off-screen model?
> > > > >
> > > > > -- charlie Crawford.
> > > > >
> > > > > At 11:09 AM 1/22/02 -0700, you wrote:
> > > > > >Actually, being familiar with X myself, I'll answer this one.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Xwindows, is a misnomer, in reality, it's just an X server, and
> > > clients.
> > > > The
> > > > > >server draws to the screen, and sends user input to the clients.
> The
> > > > clients
> > > > > >are the applications, the clients are usually on the same machine
> as
> > > the
> > > > > >server, but they don't have to be.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >X itself is nothing more than a network protocol for sending
> graphic
> > > data
> > > > to
> > > > > >an X workstation, the X protocol has no provisions for button,
text
> > > box,
> > > > or
> > > > > >any widgets for that matter, it has: line, circle, filled circle,
> > > > rectangle,
> > > > > >filled rectangle, pixmap, etc...
> > > > > >
> > > > > >X also sends keyboard input and mouse click locations to the
> > > applications
> > > > > >that own the windows they occur in.  Beyond that, X's only other
> > > > capability
> > > > > >is to send text glyphs (rendered in a given font) back to
> > applications
> > > > that
> > > > > >request them.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >As for widgets, and controls, and a nice unified API for writing
> > > > programs,
> > > > > >you need a "toolkit library". What's a toolkit library you ask? A
> > > better
> > > > > >question might be "what isn't a toolkit library?"
> > > > > >First of all, there are a lot of toolkit libraries out there,
some
> > are
> > > > very
> > > > > >simple (Athena) while some have a full-blown callback API and can
> be
> > > > adjusted
> > > > > >with themes (GTK, GTK+) and some are object-oriented C++ based
APIs
> > > (QT).
> > > > > >They all basically do the same thing, provide
> > > > functions/objects/structures to
> > > > > >the application to draw typical GUI widgets, and send draw
requests
> > to
> > > > the X
> > > > > >server. Here's the hairy part, each toolkit has its own look and
> > feel,
> > > > has
> > > > > >its own API, has its own conventions, and basically has its own
> > > > everything.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >There's also the seperate window manager, which is simply another
X
> > > > client
> > > > > >which registers a few special functions with the X server so it
can
> > get
> > > > the
> > > > > >location and owner of each window and add decorations and task
> > > switching
> > > > > >behavior. Some (most) window managers do more than this, but they
> all
> > > do
> > > > at
> > > > > >least this.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Windows, on the other had, has the equivalent of the toolkit
> library
> > > and
> > > > > >window manager built into the kernel (sort of) and most
> applications
> > > > either
> > > > > >use that, or a custom one that is very similar to it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >I'm sure this is incomplete, but I've already been wracking my
> brain
> > > for
> > > > an
> > > > > >hour over it, so I'll close here, feel free to ask questions or
> tell
> > me
> > > > about
> > > > > >parts that are unclear.
> > > > > > >       Good to see you on this list.  I wonder if there are
some
> > > folks
> > > > > > out there
> > > > > > > familiar with XWindows to share the kind of navigation that
goes
> > on
> > > > with
> > > > > > > it?  I have no idea.  Is it the same icons and rdio buttons
and
> > all
> > > of
> > > > > > > tht?  How is it different than windows and how much more easy
> > would
> > > > access
> > > > > > > be to develop in the XWindows environment?  These are
important
> > > > questions
> > > > > > > to your point I imagine.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >_______________________________________________
> > > > > >Speakup mailing list
> > > > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)

[Amanda Lee]

Yes, I tried to make that point albeit I was probably a bit overzealous ha!
this is very exciting though as in the longrun, it will afford better
Accessibility in a windowed environment.

Amanda Lee

----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Ward" <tward@bright.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 10:28 PM
Subject: Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)


> Sure go ahead. I think we need to get this cleared up. It is important to
> let them know that x is not anything like windows from a programming
> standpoint.
> Oh, sure the desktops like Gnome have icons, buttons, dialogs, etc however
> from a programming standpoint they are completely different.
> MSAA was MS's way of making up for closing the barn door after the horse
was
> out. As Kirk stated in a post Linux tries to standardize all kinds of
> things, and that standardization will pay off in the long run fas far as
> access is concerned. Assuming Gnopernicus is written properly, and
> everything works as expected.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Amanda Lee <amanda@shellworld.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 8:45 PM
> Subject: Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)
>
>
> > Thank you.  I will, if you don't mind, cross post this to the ACB list
> > because there is some mis-information presented.  This is what I was
> looking
> > for ha!  How refreshing from a software developer's background and as a
> > blind user, how utterly like a breath of clean fresh air!
> >
> > Amanda Lee
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Thomas Ward" <tward@bright.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 8:35 PM
> > Subject: Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)
> >
> >
> > > Hi, let me come at this from another angle. In the Windows world a
piece
> > of
> > > software is written, and the company then expects the screen reader
> > > manufacturer to modify their screen reader to support their app. Some
> such
> > > as Microslop include MSAA support to help the screen reader along
after
> > the
> > > fact.
> > > In Gnome 2 we want to write the screen reader, and sstandardize all
the
> > tool
> > > kits, documentation, and even the sample source code to clearly show
> > someone
> > > how to write an an accessible app, or to upgrade their app so that it
> > works
> > > with Gnopernicus. So rather than making the screen reader work with
the
> > app
> > > we want the desktop and apps to work with the screen reader.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Amanda Lee <amanda@shellworld.net>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 8:00 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)
> > >
> > >
> > > > So in broad terms, the features are equivalent to MSAA?  However,
> > there's
> > > a
> > > > cleaner interface than what MSAA provides because of the overal
> > > > standardization of what is already standardized in Linux???
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Amanda Lee
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Thomas Ward" <tward@bright.net>
> > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 7:43 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Hi. Wo, hold on here!
> > > > >
> > > > > Ok, let me explain what we are doing with Gnome to clarify things.
> > > First,
> > > > > the gtk tool kit, from which Gnome is written in,  is being
> rewritten
> > so
> > > > > that anyone using the standard controls, widgets, etc will build
> > > > accessible
> > > > > apps from the get go. Gnome has also been upgraded with speech
hooks
> > > that
> > > > > will tell the screen reader what is being presented. Finally, Sun
> will
> > > be
> > > > > introducing something like the Java Access bridge so that
> Gnopernicus
> > > can
> > > > > handle Java applications under Linux. Does this clear things up?
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: Charles Crawford <ccrawford@acb.org>
> > > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 2:27 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >          Thanks.  I understand what you are saying.  Does this
> mean
> > > that
> > > > > > there would not be a fix for X-Windows like the MSAA in Windows?
> > > Would
> > > > we
> > > > > > need some kind of major off-screen model?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -- charlie Crawford.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At 11:09 AM 1/22/02 -0700, you wrote:
> > > > > > >Actually, being familiar with X myself, I'll answer this one.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Xwindows, is a misnomer, in reality, it's just an X server, and
> > > > clients.
> > > > > The
> > > > > > >server draws to the screen, and sends user input to the
clients.
> > The
> > > > > clients
> > > > > > >are the applications, the clients are usually on the same
machine
> > as
> > > > the
> > > > > > >server, but they don't have to be.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >X itself is nothing more than a network protocol for sending
> > graphic
> > > > data
> > > > > to
> > > > > > >an X workstation, the X protocol has no provisions for button,
> text
> > > > box,
> > > > > or
> > > > > > >any widgets for that matter, it has: line, circle, filled
circle,
> > > > > rectangle,
> > > > > > >filled rectangle, pixmap, etc...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >X also sends keyboard input and mouse click locations to the
> > > > applications
> > > > > > >that own the windows they occur in.  Beyond that, X's only
other
> > > > > capability
> > > > > > >is to send text glyphs (rendered in a given font) back to
> > > applications
> > > > > that
> > > > > > >request them.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >As for widgets, and controls, and a nice unified API for
writing
> > > > > programs,
> > > > > > >you need a "toolkit library". What's a toolkit library you ask?
A
> > > > better
> > > > > > >question might be "what isn't a toolkit library?"
> > > > > > >First of all, there are a lot of toolkit libraries out there,
> some
> > > are
> > > > > very
> > > > > > >simple (Athena) while some have a full-blown callback API and
can
> > be
> > > > > adjusted
> > > > > > >with themes (GTK, GTK+) and some are object-oriented C++ based
> APIs
> > > > (QT).
> > > > > > >They all basically do the same thing, provide
> > > > > functions/objects/structures to
> > > > > > >the application to draw typical GUI widgets, and send draw
> requests
> > > to
> > > > > the X
> > > > > > >server. Here's the hairy part, each toolkit has its own look
and
> > > feel,
> > > > > has
> > > > > > >its own API, has its own conventions, and basically has its own
> > > > > everything.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >There's also the seperate window manager, which is simply
another
> X
> > > > > client
> > > > > > >which registers a few special functions with the X server so it
> can
> > > get
> > > > > the
> > > > > > >location and owner of each window and add decorations and task
> > > > switching
> > > > > > >behavior. Some (most) window managers do more than this, but
they
> > all
> > > > do
> > > > > at
> > > > > > >least this.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Windows, on the other had, has the equivalent of the toolkit
> > library
> > > > and
> > > > > > >window manager built into the kernel (sort of) and most
> > applications
> > > > > either
> > > > > > >use that, or a custom one that is very similar to it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >I'm sure this is incomplete, but I've already been wracking my
> > brain
> > > > for
> > > > > an
> > > > > > >hour over it, so I'll close here, feel free to ask questions or
> > tell
> > > me
> > > > > about
> > > > > > >parts that are unclear.
> > > > > > > >       Good to see you on this list.  I wonder if there are
> some
> > > > folks
> > > > > > > out there
> > > > > > > > familiar with XWindows to share the kind of navigation that
> goes
> > > on
> > > > > with
> > > > > > > > it?  I have no idea.  Is it the same icons and rdio buttons
> and
> > > all
> > > > of
> > > > > > > > tht?  How is it different than windows and how much more
easy
> > > would
> > > > > access
> > > > > > > > be to develop in the XWindows environment?  These are
> important
> > > > > questions
> > > > > > > > to your point I imagine.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >_______________________________________________
> > > > > > >Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)

[Amanda Lee]

Nope, "Off Screen model approach" is not a crutch.  It does not
necessarily achieve the best Accessibility but it is utilized in JFW and
HAL.  I believe that Window-Eyes also makes a good attempt to address
controls and so forth which aren't MS standard.  I believe utilizing MSAA
whereever possible is obviously the best way but it doesn't always work.
 In Window-Eyes, one can toggle MSAA on and off and it is necessary to do
so in certain instances.

Long of the short obviously a hybrid approach to utilize whatever will get
the job done.

Amanda Lee


On Tue, 22 Jan 2002, Kirk Wood wrote:

> On Tue, 22 Jan 2002, Charles Crawford wrote:
> >          Thanks.  I understand what you are saying.  Does this mean that
> > there would not be a fix for X-Windows like the MSAA in Windows?  Would we
> > need some kind of major off-screen model?
>
> Actually, I think the point is to put the hooks where they really
> belong. Understand there will be some advantages and some limitations. To
> start, you will have to use gnome. There are many other window managers,
> but you will have to use gnome. But if you do use gnome, there won't be a
> need for something like msaa.
>
> Msaa is a crutch for what should have been done. As for off scren models
> and the like, I don't personally know. I think that some of that was bable
> to impress people quite honestly.
>
> =======
> Kirk Wood
> Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
>
> Nowlan's Theory:
>         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
>         the next freeway exit.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)

[Amanda Lee]

Hahahahaha! that was cute!

I ain't domesticated anymore!  I prefer to buy my cake and eat it too!
Now if I had sufficient time to make that cake, I'd probably grind my own
spices and decorate it really nice!  but the point herein is obviously,
the masses aren't going to want to tailor things and write scripts and so
forth so there is where sharing these things will be necessary to promote
Linux as being palateible to those who don't want to bake that cake!

Amanda Lee



On Tue, 22 Jan 2002, Georgina wrote:

> Hi
>
> Here's how I see it, I might be entirely wrong but its how I understand things:
>
> You want to eat some cake?  Well you can buy a uniform one off the shelf.
> The one you buy today will taste the same as the one you buy next week.  You
> can't really change any aspect of it.
>
> However, you can make one yourself and you can choose which of the many
> available parts to make up your whole.  You can gather a variety of
> parts or can even go back as far as growing them yourself.  Thus you don't have
> to spread your cake with jam to make it palatable, you just make it to fit
> your taste.  If X is the flour, eggs and butter.  Gnome and KDE are different
> combinations of fruit or other flavourings.
>
> Jam here in the UK means fruit preserve, I think that it is known as jelly in
> other parts.
>
> Gena
>
>
>
> >         Thanks.  I understand what you are saying.  Does this mean that
> >there would not be a fix for X-Windows like the MSAA in Windows?  Would we
> >need some kind of major off-screen model?
> >
> >-- charlie Crawford.
> >
> >At 11:09 AM 1/22/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >>Actually, being familiar with X myself, I'll answer this one.
> >>
> >>Xwindows, is a misnomer, in reality, it's just an X server, and clients. The
> >>server draws to the screen, and sends user input to the clients. The clients
> >>are the applications, the clients are usually on the same machine as the
> >>server, but they don't have to be.
> >>
> >>X itself is nothing more than a network protocol for sending graphic data to
> >>an X workstation, the X protocol has no provisions for button, text box, or
> >>any widgets for that matter, it has: line, circle, filled circle, rectangle,
> >>filled rectangle, pixmap, etc...
> >>
> >>X also sends keyboard input and mouse click locations to the applications
> >>that own the windows they occur in.  Beyond that, X's only other capability
> >>is to send text glyphs (rendered in a given font) back to applications that
> >>request them.
> >>
> >>As for widgets, and controls, and a nice unified API for writing programs,
> >>you need a "toolkit library". What's a toolkit library you ask? A better
> >>question might be "what isn't a toolkit library?"
> >>First of all, there are a lot of toolkit libraries out there, some are very
> >>simple (Athena) while some have a full-blown callback API and can be adjusted
> >>with themes (GTK, GTK+) and some are object-oriented C++ based APIs (QT).
> >>They all basically do the same thing, provide functions/objects/structures to
> >>the application to draw typical GUI widgets, and send draw requests to the X
> >>server. Here's the hairy part, each toolkit has its own look and feel, has
> >>its own API, has its own conventions, and basically has its own everything.
> >>
> >>There's also the seperate window manager, which is simply another X client
> >>which registers a few special functions with the X server so it can get the
> >>location and owner of each window and add decorations and task switching
> >>behavior. Some (most) window managers do more than this, but they all do at
> >>least this.
> >>
> >>Windows, on the other had, has the equivalent of the toolkit library and
> >>window manager built into the kernel (sort of) and most applications either
> >>use that, or a custom one that is very similar to it.
> >>
> >>I'm sure this is incomplete, but I've already been wracking my brain for an
> >>hour over it, so I'll close here, feel free to ask questions or tell me about
> >>parts that are unclear.
> >> >       Good to see you on this list.  I wonder if there are some folks
> >> out there
> >> > familiar with XWindows to share the kind of navigation that goes on with
> >> > it?  I have no idea.  Is it the same icons and rdio buttons and all of
> >> > tht?  How is it different than windows and how much more easy would access
> >> > be to develop in the XWindows environment?  These are important questions
> >> > to your point I imagine.
> >> >
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Speakup mailing list
> >>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)

[Kirk Wood]

On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:
> Nope, "Off Screen model approach" is not a crutch.  It does not
> necessarily achieve the best Accessibility but it is utilized in JFW and
> HAL.  I believe that Window-Eyes also makes a good attempt to address
> controls and so forth which aren't MS standard.  I believe utilizing MSAA
> whereever possible is obviously the best way but it doesn't always work.
>  In Window-Eyes, one can toggle MSAA on and off and it is necessary to do
> so in certain instances.

Hmm, MSAA doesn't get the job done. So they have to revert to another
means of getting the job done. It doesn't work all the time either. Sounds
like a crutch to me. Of course it has been wrapped in a lot of market
speak to make it sound like the best thing since sliced bread. But they do
that with many things. 

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.

Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)

[Amanda Lee]

You are correct but it's the double-edged whammy!  MSAA sure does enable
moreso than it doesn't but it is lip service from MacroSloth at best.

In Window-Eyes for example, it's pretty currious that to open an Ecit Box
that one must turn MSAA off! in Internet Exploder
  go figure!

By the  same token, Gnome 2 can't possibly guarantee that it's a seamless
operation.  We shall see of course and I have greater personal confidence
in Gnome 2 than in MSAA which looked good on paper but we all know the
rest of the story.

Amanda Lee

 On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Kirk Wood wrote:

> On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:
> > Nope, "Off Screen model approach" is not a crutch.  It does not
> > necessarily achieve the best Accessibility but it is utilized in JFW and
> > HAL.  I believe that Window-Eyes also makes a good attempt to address
> > controls and so forth which aren't MS standard.  I believe utilizing MSAA
> > whereever possible is obviously the best way but it doesn't always work.
> >  In Window-Eyes, one can toggle MSAA on and off and it is necessary to do
> > so in certain instances.
>
> Hmm, MSAA doesn't get the job done. So they have to revert to another
> means of getting the job done. It doesn't work all the time either. Sounds
> like a crutch to me. Of course it has been wrapped in a lot of market
> speak to make it sound like the best thing since sliced bread. But they do
> that with many things.
>
> =======
> Kirk Wood
> Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
>
> Nowlan's Theory:
>         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
>         the next freeway exit.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)

[Amanda Lee]

Yeah! freedom! freedom! freedom! freedom! wish I could type tyat word all
day! long but it might drive some crazy!

"free at last"!!!

Amanda Lee


On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Georgina wrote:

> Hi
>
> Exactly, it is what the GNU is all about "Freedom" for me to bake the cake and
> for you to have a copy of the recipe if you wish and even modify it as I'm not
> perfect.  But if time is pressing, you can still have a piece to eat on the
> hoof, if you wish.  Freedom.... Freedom.... Freedom.... Freedom...
>
> Gena
>
>
>
> >Hahahahaha! that was cute!
> >
> >I ain't domesticated anymore!  I prefer to buy my cake and eat it too!
> >Now if I had sufficient time to make that cake, I'd probably grind my own
> >spices and decorate it really nice!  but the point herein is obviously,
> >the masses aren't going to want to tailor things and write scripts and so
> >forth so there is where sharing these things will be necessary to promote
> >Linux as being palateible to those who don't want to bake that cake!
> >
> >Amanda Lee
> >
> >
> >
> >On Tue, 22 Jan 2002, Georgina wrote:
> >
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> Here's how I see it, I might be entirely wrong but its how I understand thin
> gs:
> >>
> >> You want to eat some cake?  Well you can buy a uniform one off the shelf.
> >> The one you buy today will taste the same as the one you buy next week.  You
> >> can't really change any aspect of it.
> >>
> >> However, you can make one yourself and you can choose which of the many
> >> available parts to make up your whole.  You can gather a variety of
> >> parts or can even go back as far as growing them yourself.  Thus you don't h
> ave
> >> to spread your cake with jam to make it palatable, you just make it to fit
> >> your taste.  If X is the flour, eggs and butter.  Gnome and KDE are differen
> t
> >> combinations of fruit or other flavourings.
> >>
> >> Jam here in the UK means fruit preserve, I think that it is known as jelly i
> n
> >> other parts.
> >>
> >> Gena
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> >         Thanks.  I understand what you are saying.  Does this mean that
> >> >there would not be a fix for X-Windows like the MSAA in Windows?  Would we
> >> >need some kind of major off-screen model?
> >> >
> >> >-- charlie Crawford.
> >> >
> >> >At 11:09 AM 1/22/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >> >>Actually, being familiar with X myself, I'll answer this one.
> >> >>
> >> >>Xwindows, is a misnomer, in reality, it's just an X server, and clients. T
> he
> >> >>server draws to the screen, and sends user input to the clients. The clien
> ts
> >> >>are the applications, the clients are usually on the same machine as the
> >> >>server, but they don't have to be.
> >> >>
> >> >>X itself is nothing more than a network protocol for sending graphic data
> to
> >> >>an X workstation, the X protocol has no provisions for button, text box, o
> r
> >> >>any widgets for that matter, it has: line, circle, filled circle, rectangl
> e,
> >> >>filled rectangle, pixmap, etc...
> >> >>
> >> >>X also sends keyboard input and mouse click locations to the applications
> >> >>that own the windows they occur in.  Beyond that, X's only other capabilit
> y
> >> >>is to send text glyphs (rendered in a given font) back to applications tha
> t
> >> >>request them.
> >> >>
> >> >>As for widgets, and controls, and a nice unified API for writing programs,
> >> >>you need a "toolkit library". What's a toolkit library you ask? A better
> >> >>question might be "what isn't a toolkit library?"
> >> >>First of all, there are a lot of toolkit libraries out there, some are ver
> y
> >> >>simple (Athena) while some have a full-blown callback API and can be adjus
> ted
> >> >>with themes (GTK, GTK+) and some are object-oriented C++ based APIs (QT).
> >> >>They all basically do the same thing, provide functions/objects/structures
>  to
> >> >>the application to draw typical GUI widgets, and send draw requests to the
>  X
> >> >>server. Here's the hairy part, each toolkit has its own look and feel, has
> >> >>its own API, has its own conventions, and basically has its own everything
> .
> >> >>
> >> >>There's also the seperate window manager, which is simply another X client
> >> >>which registers a few special functions with the X server so it can get th
> e
> >> >>location and owner of each window and add decorations and task switching
> >> >>behavior. Some (most) window managers do more than this, but they all do a
> t
> >> >>least this.
> >> >>
> >> >>Windows, on the other had, has the equivalent of the toolkit library and
> >> >>window manager built into the kernel (sort of) and most applications eithe
> r
> >> >>use that, or a custom one that is very similar to it.
> >> >>
> >> >>I'm sure this is incomplete, but I've already been wracking my brain for a
> n
> >> >>hour over it, so I'll close here, feel free to ask questions or tell me ab
> out
> >> >>parts that are unclear.
> >> >> >       Good to see you on this list.  I wonder if there are some folks
> >> >> out there
> >> >> > familiar with XWindows to share the kind of navigation that goes on wit
> h
> >> >> > it?  I have no idea.  Is it the same icons and rdio buttons and all of
> >> >> > tht?  How is it different than windows and how much more easy would acc
> ess
> >> >> > be to develop in the XWindows environment?  These are important questio
> ns
> >> >> > to your point I imagine.
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>_______________________________________________
> >> >>Speakup mailing list
> >> >>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >> >>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >_______________________________________________
> >> >Speakup mailing list
> >> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Speakup mailing list
> >> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >>
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)

[Georgina]

Hi

Exactly, it is what the GNU is all about "Freedom" for me to bake the cake and 
for you to have a copy of the recipe if you wish and even modify it as I'm not 
perfect.  But if time is pressing, you can still have a piece to eat on the 
hoof, if you wish.  Freedom.... Freedom.... Freedom.... Freedom...

Gena



>Hahahahaha! that was cute!
>
>I ain't domesticated anymore!  I prefer to buy my cake and eat it too!
>Now if I had sufficient time to make that cake, I'd probably grind my own
>spices and decorate it really nice!  but the point herein is obviously,
>the masses aren't going to want to tailor things and write scripts and so
>forth so there is where sharing these things will be necessary to promote
>Linux as being palateible to those who don't want to bake that cake!
>
>Amanda Lee
>
>
>
>On Tue, 22 Jan 2002, Georgina wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>> Here's how I see it, I might be entirely wrong but its how I understand thin
gs:
>>
>> You want to eat some cake?  Well you can buy a uniform one off the shelf.
>> The one you buy today will taste the same as the one you buy next week.  You
>> can't really change any aspect of it.
>>
>> However, you can make one yourself and you can choose which of the many
>> available parts to make up your whole.  You can gather a variety of
>> parts or can even go back as far as growing them yourself.  Thus you don't h
ave
>> to spread your cake with jam to make it palatable, you just make it to fit
>> your taste.  If X is the flour, eggs and butter.  Gnome and KDE are differen
t
>> combinations of fruit or other flavourings.
>>
>> Jam here in the UK means fruit preserve, I think that it is known as jelly i
n
>> other parts.
>>
>> Gena
>>
>>
>>
>> >         Thanks.  I understand what you are saying.  Does this mean that
>> >there would not be a fix for X-Windows like the MSAA in Windows?  Would we
>> >need some kind of major off-screen model?
>> >
>> >-- charlie Crawford.
>> >
>> >At 11:09 AM 1/22/02 -0700, you wrote:
>> >>Actually, being familiar with X myself, I'll answer this one.
>> >>
>> >>Xwindows, is a misnomer, in reality, it's just an X server, and clients. T
he
>> >>server draws to the screen, and sends user input to the clients. The clien
ts
>> >>are the applications, the clients are usually on the same machine as the
>> >>server, but they don't have to be.
>> >>
>> >>X itself is nothing more than a network protocol for sending graphic data 
to
>> >>an X workstation, the X protocol has no provisions for button, text box, o
r
>> >>any widgets for that matter, it has: line, circle, filled circle, rectangl
e,
>> >>filled rectangle, pixmap, etc...
>> >>
>> >>X also sends keyboard input and mouse click locations to the applications
>> >>that own the windows they occur in.  Beyond that, X's only other capabilit
y
>> >>is to send text glyphs (rendered in a given font) back to applications tha
t
>> >>request them.
>> >>
>> >>As for widgets, and controls, and a nice unified API for writing programs,
>> >>you need a "toolkit library". What's a toolkit library you ask? A better
>> >>question might be "what isn't a toolkit library?"
>> >>First of all, there are a lot of toolkit libraries out there, some are ver
y
>> >>simple (Athena) while some have a full-blown callback API and can be adjus
ted
>> >>with themes (GTK, GTK+) and some are object-oriented C++ based APIs (QT).
>> >>They all basically do the same thing, provide functions/objects/structures
 to
>> >>the application to draw typical GUI widgets, and send draw requests to the
 X
>> >>server. Here's the hairy part, each toolkit has its own look and feel, has
>> >>its own API, has its own conventions, and basically has its own everything
.
>> >>
>> >>There's also the seperate window manager, which is simply another X client
>> >>which registers a few special functions with the X server so it can get th
e
>> >>location and owner of each window and add decorations and task switching
>> >>behavior. Some (most) window managers do more than this, but they all do a
t
>> >>least this.
>> >>
>> >>Windows, on the other had, has the equivalent of the toolkit library and
>> >>window manager built into the kernel (sort of) and most applications eithe
r
>> >>use that, or a custom one that is very similar to it.
>> >>
>> >>I'm sure this is incomplete, but I've already been wracking my brain for a
n
>> >>hour over it, so I'll close here, feel free to ask questions or tell me ab
out
>> >>parts that are unclear.
>> >> >       Good to see you on this list.  I wonder if there are some folks
>> >> out there
>> >> > familiar with XWindows to share the kind of navigation that goes on wit
h
>> >> > it?  I have no idea.  Is it the same icons and rdio buttons and all of
>> >> > tht?  How is it different than windows and how much more easy would acc
ess
>> >> > be to develop in the XWindows environment?  These are important questio
ns
>> >> > to your point I imagine.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>_______________________________________________
>> >>Speakup mailing list
>> >>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> >>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> >
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Speakup mailing list
>> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)

[Georgina]

Hi

Well as I said in a previous post.  Its a matter of perception.  Of course 
Microslop users aren't interested in how the PC works nor do they need to know 
a lot?  Its an illusion which some Blinux users need to drop and face reality.  
MS users have to know a lot more than they're usually given credit.  Listen 
to today's "Main Menu" feature on accessing Google's Usernet groups.  Now what 
was it?  Control + insert + down arrow for Window Eyes users and insert + enter 
for JFW 4.0 users.  Now how do I enter text in an edit field, edit box or is 
it rich edit field?  Oh ya, insert is the numeric zero key.

I'm not suggesting that GNU/Linux isn't without a steep learning curve, I'm just 
suggesting that the gap isn't as wide as many believe.

Gena



>You are correct but it's the double-edged whammy!  MSAA sure does enable
>moreso than it doesn't but it is lip service from MacroSloth at best.
>
>In Window-Eyes for example, it's pretty currious that to open an Ecit Box
>that one must turn MSAA off! in Internet Exploder
>  go figure!
>
>By the  same token, Gnome 2 can't possibly guarantee that it's a seamless
>operation.  We shall see of course and I have greater personal confidence
>in Gnome 2 than in MSAA which looked good on paper but we all know the
>rest of the story.
>
>Amanda Lee
>
> On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Kirk Wood wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:
>> > Nope, "Off Screen model approach" is not a crutch.  It does not
>> > necessarily achieve the best Accessibility but it is utilized in JFW and
>> > HAL.  I believe that Window-Eyes also makes a good attempt to address
>> > controls and so forth which aren't MS standard.  I believe utilizing MSAA
>> > whereever possible is obviously the best way but it doesn't always work.
>> >  In Window-Eyes, one can toggle MSAA on and off and it is necessary to do
>> > so in certain instances.
>>
>> Hmm, MSAA doesn't get the job done. So they have to revert to another
>> means of getting the job done. It doesn't work all the time either. Sounds
>> like a crutch to me. Of course it has been wrapped in a lot of market
>> speak to make it sound like the best thing since sliced bread. But they do
>> that with many things.
>>
>> =======
>> Kirk Wood
>> Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
>>
>> Nowlan's Theory:
>>         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
>>         the next freeway exit.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

RE: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)

[Charles Crawford]

Jeff,

         I am sure he will.  Let us know when the thing will be on ACB 
Radio and I for one will be listening!

-- charlie.
At 08:18 AM 1/23/02 +1000, you wrote:
>On Tue, 22 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:
>
> > I would like to suggest that someone coordinate with Jonathan M and ask
> > him to host a Mainstream or other  show from teh acb.org acbradio site
> > such that some who can present the true facts behind how Linux is truly a
> > more open access approach.  Although Linux may not become everyone's
> > personal choice, it's  meaningful to at least present well-founded
> > information.
>
>FWIW, I wrote to Jonathan privately.  I know the guy pretty well.  I'd be
>happy to post what I sent to him.  For me, it wasn't the usability aspect
>of what he wrote that got me, since that is surely a matter of personal
>preference.  What did get me was the opinion that what could be done was
>much less efficient and that it was his opinion that less could be done
>than was actually true.  So I wrote back to him and corrected some of his
>assertions.  I offered to take up his challenge, I hope he follows through
>with it.
>
>Geoff.
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)

[Kirk Wood]

While Gnome 2 can't promise seamless integration, it stands a better
chance. And a huge difference is that the ability to improve the situation
will be there. It won't be four or five 3rd party companies at the mercy
of the conglomerate.

There will be other limitations like being tied to programs using certain
toolkits. But the good news is that most programs use those kits.

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.

Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)

[Kirk Wood]

The gap certainly isn't as large as many would like to believe. Especially
if you talk about those who can work with many programs. Heck, from what I
have seen, you either learn some basic programming skill, or wait for
someone to write the script in JFW.

Now in all fairness m$ can't win in the arena anyway. They purchased the
technology that Hinter-Joyce used back in win95 days. They just couldn't
get things as well as they needed to be. They kept working and this is
where msaa came into the picture. But you should have heard the screams
when basic screen reader functionality was announced as part of
win2k. There was some screaming over the magnifier in win98. First, the
screams because the OS isn't accessible. Then the screams cause they would
bankrupt the companies that formed to fix the first problem. Not to
mention that the companies can't agree on an interface to the OS.

It is a big benefit that companies aren't forming to provide access to
Linux. This way the guts will be standard and the user interface will be
the only variance. (Much as there are many interfaces to cdrecord, yet
only one main package in use for recording cds.)

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.

Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)

[randy turner]

hi,

is there an elist where they are
talking about all of this?
thanks in advance
randy

On Tue, 22 Jan 2002, Thomas Ward wrote:

> I take it you don't know much bout the Gnome 2.0 project. Well, here is a
> more in depth look at Gnome 2. Which is part of the x-windows system.
>
> 1. Gnome 2 is being majorly over halled with speech accessible widgits,
> screen reader hooks, and other fixes to make it accessible.
> 2. synth driver support is being added to support synths for Linux. This
> project is called Gnome-speech.
> 3. the gtk+ language is being modified so that from now on all applications
> using the standard gtk+ 2 will come out of the box accessible with
> Gnopernicus and other x screen readers like it.
>
> So steps are being taken to make X accessible, but it merely takes time.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: David Arocho <darocho@earthlink.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 9:08 PM
> Subject: RE: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)
>
>
> > The real question is access.  Neither JAWS nor WINDOW EYES can give full
> > access to the Windows operating system.  If you get away from the small
> > number of familiar Microsoft applications, you find that you have to limp
> > along.  This will be so until speech and Braille and large print access
> are
> > built right into the operating system.  Linux is the only operating system
> > that has a prayer of getting such access built in.  However, until
> > X-windows is made accessible, Linux will remain a solution for only a few.
> > If it is not done soon, though, and X-windows gets to challenge Microsoft
> > for its dominance, blind people will again be left out in the cold.  The
> > fact is tat, unless some of us get behind it and push and make our own way
> > to get X-windows accessible, it is not going to get done.  If any of you
> > are interested in working aggressively toward that end, let me hear from
> > you privately.  Lists are great for getting people in touch, but they all
> > tend to go in the direction of griping sessions a la talk radio.  Let's
> > start doing, as talk is very cheap and time is not on our side.
> >
> > David Arocho
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Needs educateingRE: Message from Linux (fwd)

[randy turner]

hi,
i might as well stick my head up too!
i myself would be willing to donate
 to see that the gpl continued.
i am not for the copy protections that windows has but
i also realize that some cost is invalved
because programmers have to support themselvs
like everybody else,
i believe that everybody should have a choice in what op system they
choose to use
but i am for keeping the gpl and donating
what we all can to see that we all have a choice.
thanks
randy


On Tue, 22 Jan 2002, Georgina wrote:

> Hi
>
> Well I'm going to stick my head above the parapit.  So knock it off cleanly
> won't you.  <Smile>.
>
> I disagree, Linux will be for the masses as far as the Blinux community is
> concerned, in the future.  Now before you raise your axe:
>
> A friend beta testing for GW Micro proudly informed me that they had a couple
> of developers working on speech with flash.  I pondered, how many people will
> we have when we have the foundations to build upon?  I guess that it will be
> more that any capitalist system can offer.  I fear that many of you are
> forgetting the ethos of the Linux operating system and that the provailing
> economic situations of blind people around the world.  We don't need to knock
> MS because they're introducing new technologies and then attempting to build a
> fix for those of us who need a screen reader.
>
> The whole structure of screen readers has been to engage between the OS and the
> graphic adapter but in XP they've changed that way of working.  As well as
> they're push to secure the copying of the operating system too, is going to
> raise questions within the minds of blind people when they consider upgrading.  We as blind people know only too well, what it is like to be bound with copy protection methods.
>
> I do fear that our community will be become divided by those who have their
> equipment paid for by an employer or Government and those who have to find it
> themselves.
>
> I think that blind people will give Linux a chance when they can use the GUI
> and more development will be undertaken by the Open Source community then
>
> these small sponges that we know as the adaptive industry.  Yes, they rule the
> day currently.  But just sit back and see where loyalty lies.
>
> Linux as a whole, is at a very interesting point in its development.  My local
> Linux Users Group were discussing this issue a few months ago and someone
> offered this anedote:
>
> At a meeting, someone took a box with one of the rpm packages freshly
> installed.  The new user wanted to set up his dial up service.  A long time
> experienced user went to work looking at scripts editing this way and that way
> but after some time he wasn't getting anywhere.  Anyway another newbie user was
> at the meeting and plucked up the courage and said, "I had the same problem and
> I can show you how I fixed it".  So they invited him to attempt it and within
> a few clicks of the mouse within the X environment, the box was dialing out on
> demand nicely.
>
> So ther's a lot of potential for Linux and it is up to us how we progress.
> Gena
>
>
>
> >I agree with Kirk.  Linux is simply not for everyone.  Although I use
> >Linux for 90% of my computer tasks I still use Windows for that 10%.
> >That 10% mainly consists of online banking/billing because of the java.
> >I do find the access that I get with Window-Eyes and Internet Explorer
> >to be very nice.  As to the comments on sound editing and cd ripping I
> >know it can be done in Linux but I personally am not into it so don't
> >know how easy it would be.  I'm sure anything within reason can be done
> >in Linux and in time everything will be easy for blind users.
> >
> >I personally don't mind the editing of config files, command line, etc
> >but I agree that some people who have never been exposed to it will be
> >hard-pressed to try it.  Also others  who may have used command line
> >utilities such as dos may look at how "easy" their world has been and
> >not want to go back to more typing.  Still, others may just be lazy and
> >want an OS to control their computer without their say-so.  *lol*
> >
> >--
> >We are writing this e-mail to inform you that the mail server is down.
> >Please do not call the help desk for assistance.  To see the progress of
> >any outage refer to your e-mail notifications.
> >Raul A. Gallegos - http://www.asmodean.net
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)

[Charles Crawford]

         This is good information.  What can ACB do to move the project 
along?  Should we look for places to provide financial support to speed the 
development?  Should we be in touch with Sun about JAVA Bridge?  Is there a 
working prototype of this?  What screen readers will it support or or the 
other way around?

Thnaks.

-- chrlie Crawford.

At 07:43 PM 1/22/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Hi. Wo, hold on here!
>
>Ok, let me explain what we are doing with Gnome to clarify things. First,
>the gtk tool kit, from which Gnome is written in,  is being rewritten so
>that anyone using the standard controls, widgets, etc will build accessible
>apps from the get go. Gnome has also been upgraded with speech hooks that
>will tell the screen reader what is being presented. Finally, Sun will be
>introducing something like the Java Access bridge so that Gnopernicus can
>handle Java applications under Linux. Does this clear things up?
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Charles Crawford <ccrawford@acb.org>
>To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 2:27 PM
>Subject: Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)
>
>
> >          Thanks.  I understand what you are saying.  Does this mean that
> > there would not be a fix for X-Windows like the MSAA in Windows?  Would we
> > need some kind of major off-screen model?
> >
> > -- charlie Crawford.
> >
> > At 11:09 AM 1/22/02 -0700, you wrote:
> > >Actually, being familiar with X myself, I'll answer this one.
> > >
> > >Xwindows, is a misnomer, in reality, it's just an X server, and clients.
>The
> > >server draws to the screen, and sends user input to the clients. The
>clients
> > >are the applications, the clients are usually on the same machine as the
> > >server, but they don't have to be.
> > >
> > >X itself is nothing more than a network protocol for sending graphic data
>to
> > >an X workstation, the X protocol has no provisions for button, text box,
>or
> > >any widgets for that matter, it has: line, circle, filled circle,
>rectangle,
> > >filled rectangle, pixmap, etc...
> > >
> > >X also sends keyboard input and mouse click locations to the applications
> > >that own the windows they occur in.  Beyond that, X's only other
>capability
> > >is to send text glyphs (rendered in a given font) back to applications
>that
> > >request them.
> > >
> > >As for widgets, and controls, and a nice unified API for writing
>programs,
> > >you need a "toolkit library". What's a toolkit library you ask? A better
> > >question might be "what isn't a toolkit library?"
> > >First of all, there are a lot of toolkit libraries out there, some are
>very
> > >simple (Athena) while some have a full-blown callback API and can be
>adjusted
> > >with themes (GTK, GTK+) and some are object-oriented C++ based APIs (QT).
> > >They all basically do the same thing, provide
>functions/objects/structures to
> > >the application to draw typical GUI widgets, and send draw requests to
>the X
> > >server. Here's the hairy part, each toolkit has its own look and feel,
>has
> > >its own API, has its own conventions, and basically has its own
>everything.
> > >
> > >There's also the seperate window manager, which is simply another X
>client
> > >which registers a few special functions with the X server so it can get
>the
> > >location and owner of each window and add decorations and task switching
> > >behavior. Some (most) window managers do more than this, but they all do
>at
> > >least this.
> > >
> > >Windows, on the other had, has the equivalent of the toolkit library and
> > >window manager built into the kernel (sort of) and most applications
>either
> > >use that, or a custom one that is very similar to it.
> > >
> > >I'm sure this is incomplete, but I've already been wracking my brain for
>an
> > >hour over it, so I'll close here, feel free to ask questions or tell me
>about
> > >parts that are unclear.
> > > >       Good to see you on this list.  I wonder if there are some folks
> > > out there
> > > > familiar with XWindows to share the kind of navigation that goes on
>with
> > > > it?  I have no idea.  Is it the same icons and rdio buttons and all of
> > > > tht?  How is it different than windows and how much more easy would
>access
> > > > be to develop in the XWindows environment?  These are important
>questions
> > > > to your point I imagine.
> > > >
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Speakup mailing list
> > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
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RE: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)

[Gregory Nowak]

I like the idea.  If someone has the means, please suggest that to him.
Greg



> ----- Original Message -----

>From: Amanda Lee <amanda@shellworld.net

>To: speakup@braille.uwo.ca

>Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 13:43:39 -0500 (EST)

>Subject: RE: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd)

>I would like to suggest that someone coordinate with Jonathan M and ask

>him to host a Mainstream or other  show from teh acb.org acbradio site

>such that some who can present the true facts behind how Linux is truly a

>more open access approach.  Although Linux may not become everyone's

>personal choice, it's  meaningful to at least present well-founded

>information.

>I can hear Mr.  Crawford cheer! well I hope so!

>Amanda Lee





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