How to get an accessible telephone

How to get an accessible telephone

[Janina Sajka]

In the U.S. telephones and telephone services must be accessible. It's the law. Unfortunately, putting a law in the law
book isn't enough. Consumers must insist on the benefits the law entitles them to, and they must complain to the
appropriate authorities if they don't get the benefits they're entitled to.

     * Do you receive your phone bills in a format you can read?
     * Do you have your telephone's manual in a format you can read?
     * Does your phone speak its settings as you arrow around the menus?
     * Can you adjust your telephone's display to make it more readable?

AFB wants to help you get the accessible telephone and telephone service the law entitles you to. 

Step One:	Become informed. Know your rights. To learn more, read our newly revised brochure on this subject at:

	http://www.afb.org/section255.asp

Step Two:	If you try and don't succeed, complain to the authorities. We've designed a complaint form you can use:

	http://www.afb.org/255complaint.asp

Step Three:	Let us know the results of your complaint. We can't be your personal advocate, but the
information we get from many individuals will help us advocate better for you with industry and the government.

Our brochure explains all of this and provides links to additional information. Please bookmark this URL and use it to
get the accessible telephone and telephone service you're entitled to by law:

	http://www.afb.org/section255.asp

Please feel free to distribute this notice and our brochure wherever you see fit.


-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

   Please avoid sending me Word or Power-Point attachments.
   See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Re: How to get an accessible telephone

[Alex Snow]

My telephone is a clunky old all metal rodery, and the only special feature
it's got is it rings.  It is perfictly accessible.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <uaccess-l@trace.wisc.edu>; <webwatch@yahoogroups.com>;
<speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 5:37 PM
Subject: How to get an accessible telephone


> In the U.S. telephones and telephone services must be accessible. It's the
law. Unfortunately, putting a law in the law
> book isn't enough. Consumers must insist on the benefits the law entitles
them to, and they must complain to the
> appropriate authorities if they don't get the benefits they're entitled
to.
>
>      * Do you receive your phone bills in a format you can read?
>      * Do you have your telephone's manual in a format you can read?
>      * Does your phone speak its settings as you arrow around the menus?
>      * Can you adjust your telephone's display to make it more readable?
>
> AFB wants to help you get the accessible telephone and telephone service
the law entitles you to.
>
> Step One: Become informed. Know your rights. To learn more, read our newly
revised brochure on this subject at:
>
> http://www.afb.org/section255.asp
>
> Step Two: If you try and don't succeed, complain to the authorities. We've
designed a complaint form you can use:
>
> http://www.afb.org/255complaint.asp
>
> Step Three: Let us know the results of your complaint. We can't be your
personal advocate, but the
> information we get from many individuals will help us advocate better for
you with industry and the government.
>
> Our brochure explains all of this and provides links to additional
information. Please bookmark this URL and use it to
> get the accessible telephone and telephone service you're entitled to by
law:
>
> http://www.afb.org/section255.asp
>
> Please feel free to distribute this notice and our brochure wherever you
see fit.
>
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
>
>    Please avoid sending me Word or Power-Point attachments.
>    See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: How to get an accessible telephone

[Janina Sajka]

And what about your phone bills? Got them in a format you can
read independently?

On Mon, 6 May 2002, Alex Snow wrote:

> My telephone is a clunky old all metal rodery, and the only special feature
> it's got is it rings.  It is perfictly accessible.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <uaccess-l@trace.wisc.edu>; <webwatch@yahoogroups.com>;
> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 5:37 PM
> Subject: How to get an accessible telephone
> 
> 
> > In the U.S. telephones and telephone services must be accessible. It's the
> law. Unfortunately, putting a law in the law
> > book isn't enough. Consumers must insist on the benefits the law entitles
> them to, and they must complain to the
> > appropriate authorities if they don't get the benefits they're entitled
> to.
> >
> >      * Do you receive your phone bills in a format you can read?
> >      * Do you have your telephone's manual in a format you can read?
> >      * Does your phone speak its settings as you arrow around the menus?
> >      * Can you adjust your telephone's display to make it more readable?
> >
> > AFB wants to help you get the accessible telephone and telephone service
> the law entitles you to.
> >
> > Step One: Become informed. Know your rights. To learn more, read our newly
> revised brochure on this subject at:
> >
> > http://www.afb.org/section255.asp
> >
> > Step Two: If you try and don't succeed, complain to the authorities. We've
> designed a complaint form you can use:
> >
> > http://www.afb.org/255complaint.asp
> >
> > Step Three: Let us know the results of your complaint. We can't be your
> personal advocate, but the
> > information we get from many individuals will help us advocate better for
> you with industry and the government.
> >
> > Our brochure explains all of this and provides links to additional
> information. Please bookmark this URL and use it to
> > get the accessible telephone and telephone service you're entitled to by
> law:
> >
> > http://www.afb.org/section255.asp
> >
> > Please feel free to distribute this notice and our brochure wherever you
> see fit.
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Janina Sajka, Director
> > Technology Research and Development
> > Governmental Relations Group
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> >
> >    Please avoid sending me Word or Power-Point attachments.
> >    See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: How to get an accessible telephone

['Georgina']

Hi

Well I don't get mine in an accessible format but I'm in the UK so I
guess that not relevant to you.  But is it for this list too?
Gena



Blindness Advocacy and Self Help Online www.bashonline.org

>And what about your phone bills? Got them in a format you can
>read independently?
>
>On Mon, 6 May 2002, Alex Snow wrote:
>
>> My telephone is a clunky old all metal rodery, and the only special feature
>> it's got is it rings.  It is perfictly accessible.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
>> To: <uaccess-l@trace.wisc.edu>; <webwatch@yahoogroups.com>;
>> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>> Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 5:37 PM
>> Subject: How to get an accessible telephone
>> 
>> 
>> > In the U.S. telephones and telephone services must be accessible. It's the
>> law. Unfortunately, putting a law in the law
>> > book isn't enough. Consumers must insist on the benefits the law entitles
>> them to, and they must complain to the
>> > appropriate authorities if they don't get the benefits they're entitled
>> to.
>> >
>> >      * Do you receive your phone bills in a format you can read?
>> >      * Do you have your telephone's manual in a format you can read?
>> >      * Does your phone speak its settings as you arrow around the menus?
>> >      * Can you adjust your telephone's display to make it more readable?
>> >
>> > AFB wants to help you get the accessible telephone and telephone service
>> the law entitles you to.
>> >
>> > Step One: Become informed. Know your rights. To learn more, read our newly
>> revised brochure on this subject at:
>> >
>> > http://www.afb.org/section255.asp
>> >
>> > Step Two: If you try and don't succeed, complain to the authorities. We've
>> designed a complaint form you can use:
>> >
>> > http://www.afb.org/255complaint.asp
>> >
>> > Step Three: Let us know the results of your complaint. We can't be your
>> personal advocate, but the
>> > information we get from many individuals will help us advocate better for
>> you with industry and the government.
>> >
>> > Our brochure explains all of this and provides links to additional
>> information. Please bookmark this URL and use it to
>> > get the accessible telephone and telephone service you're entitled to by
>> law:
>> >
>> > http://www.afb.org/section255.asp
>> >
>> > Please feel free to distribute this notice and our brochure wherever you
>> see fit.
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > Janina Sajka, Director
>> > Technology Research and Development
>> > Governmental Relations Group
>> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>> >
>> > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>> >
>> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
>> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>> > http://www.openebook.org
>> >
>> >    Please avoid sending me Word or Power-Point attachments.
>> >    See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Speakup mailing list
>> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> >
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> 
>
>-- 
>	
>				Janina Sajka, Director
>				Technology Research and Development
>				Governmental Relations Group
>				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
>Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
>Chair, Accessibility SIG
>Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>http://www.openebook.org
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: How to get an accessible telephone

[Toby Fisher]

On Tue, 7 May 2002, 'Georgina' wrote:

> Hi
>
> Well I don't get mine in an accessible format but I'm in the UK so I
> guess that not relevant to you.  But is it for this list too?

Hi Gena,

This is for other UK subscribers as well.  BT offer braille and disk
bills, Kingston Communication offer bills on disk, only MS Excel though,
despite my protests.  Others I can't comment, but the access-uk list or
similar is probably a more appropriate forum in the UK.

Cheers.

-- 
Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808
   Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
   See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Re: How to get an accessible telephone

[Alex Snow]

Yeah.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 8:30 PM
Subject: Re: How to get an accessible telephone


> And what about your phone bills? Got them in a format you can
> read independently?
>
> On Mon, 6 May 2002, Alex Snow wrote:
>
> > My telephone is a clunky old all metal rodery, and the only special
feature
> > it's got is it rings.  It is perfictly accessible.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > To: <uaccess-l@trace.wisc.edu>; <webwatch@yahoogroups.com>;
> > <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 5:37 PM
> > Subject: How to get an accessible telephone
> >
> >
> > > In the U.S. telephones and telephone services must be accessible. It's
the
> > law. Unfortunately, putting a law in the law
> > > book isn't enough. Consumers must insist on the benefits the law
entitles
> > them to, and they must complain to the
> > > appropriate authorities if they don't get the benefits they're
entitled
> > to.
> > >
> > >      * Do you receive your phone bills in a format you can read?
> > >      * Do you have your telephone's manual in a format you can read?
> > >      * Does your phone speak its settings as you arrow around the
menus?
> > >      * Can you adjust your telephone's display to make it more
readable?
> > >
> > > AFB wants to help you get the accessible telephone and telephone
service
> > the law entitles you to.
> > >
> > > Step One: Become informed. Know your rights. To learn more, read our
newly
> > revised brochure on this subject at:
> > >
> > > http://www.afb.org/section255.asp
> > >
> > > Step Two: If you try and don't succeed, complain to the authorities.
We've
> > designed a complaint form you can use:
> > >
> > > http://www.afb.org/255complaint.asp
> > >
> > > Step Three: Let us know the results of your complaint. We can't be
your
> > personal advocate, but the
> > > information we get from many individuals will help us advocate better
for
> > you with industry and the government.
> > >
> > > Our brochure explains all of this and provides links to additional
> > information. Please bookmark this URL and use it to
> > > get the accessible telephone and telephone service you're entitled to
by
> > law:
> > >
> > > http://www.afb.org/section255.asp
> > >
> > > Please feel free to distribute this notice and our brochure wherever
you
> > see fit.
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > Technology Research and Development
> > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > >
> > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > >
> > > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > > http://www.openebook.org
> > >
> > >    Please avoid sending me Word or Power-Point attachments.
> > >    See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

xwindows

[Jim Ruby]

Do you think we will ever have access to the gui?

I find that I can access things faster in windows then in Linux text mode.  I will admit that linux works much better then windows or the winxp.

Re: xwindows

[Saqib Shaikh]

I am almost certain that the Gnopernicus X screen reader will be released in
some form before Christmas.

See http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gap

Saqib
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Ruby" <jruby@charter.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 4:12 AM
Subject: xwindows


> Do you think we will ever have access to the gui?
>
> I find that I can access things faster in windows then in Linux text mode.
I will admit that linux works much better then windows or the winxp.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: xwindows

[Charles Crawford]

Jim,

         There is access not far off.  I would like to see a menuing system 
for Linix text mode that would reduce the criptic command line having to 
remember all those commands and switches.

-- charlie Crawford.
At 10:12 PM 05/12/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Do you think we will ever have access to the gui?
>
>I find that I can access things faster in windows then in Linux text 
>mode.  I will admit that linux works much better then windows or the winxp.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: xwindows

[Janina Sajka]

Charlie:

Well, there's absolutely nothing stopping someone from writing
such a menuing system! 

hint hint hint

Getting people to use it instead of the command line? Well,
that's another story.

Here's what I think will happen. Some peopl will chose it because
it seems to make life simple. Then they'll want to do something
the menus don't support. Then the author gets mail saying "why
doesn't your menu ..." Then were are you?

Back at the command line?

Hopefully. Because the alternative, a fully capable menuing
system, is far worse.

Just goes to say there's no substitute for learning.

On Mon, 13 May 2002, Charles Crawford wrote:

> Jim,
> 
>          There is access not far off.  I would like to see a menuing system 
> for Linix text mode that would reduce the criptic command line having to 
> remember all those commands and switches.
> 
> -- charlie Crawford.
> At 10:12 PM 05/12/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> >Do you think we will ever have access to the gui?
> >
> >I find that I can access things faster in windows then in Linux text 
> >mode.  I will admit that linux works much better then windows or the winxp.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: xwindows

[jwantz]

Hi Charlie,
Well, I personally like those cryptic commands--each one does a single 
task well.  I hate tabbing through a long list of checkboxes and radio 
buttons (oops, which radio button in the last 15 did I check?)  As for 
quickness Jim, there are a few tasks in that unmentionable series of 
operating systems that are achievable very quickly--but I find most 
tasks very cumbersome on those graphical OS's.  Of course having worked 
on UNIX systems for about 8 years might have somethingto do with my 
attitude.

     Jim Wantz WB0TFK
On Mon, 13 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:

> Charlie:
> 
> Well, there's absolutely nothing stopping someone from writing
> such a menuing system! 
> 
> hint hint hint
> 
> Getting people to use it instead of the command line? Well,
> that's another story.
> 
> Here's what I think will happen. Some peopl will chose it because
> it seems to make life simple. Then they'll want to do something
> the menus don't support. Then the author gets mail saying "why
> doesn't your menu ..." Then were are you?
> 
> Back at the command line?
> 
> Hopefully. Because the alternative, a fully capable menuing
> system, is far worse.
> 
> Just goes to say there's no substitute for learning.
> 
> On Mon, 13 May 2002, Charles Crawford wrote:
> 
> > Jim,
> > 
> >          There is access not far off.  I would like to see a menuing system 
> > for Linix text mode that would reduce the criptic command line having to 
> > remember all those commands and switches.
> > 
> > -- charlie Crawford.
> > At 10:12 PM 05/12/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > >Do you think we will ever have access to the gui?
> > >
> > >I find that I can access things faster in windows then in Linux text 
> > >mode.  I will admit that linux works much better then windows or the winxp.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Speakup mailing list
> > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> 

Re: xwindows

[Charles Crawford]

Did you ever use TD in DOS?  That is what I am talking about.

-- charlie Crawford.
At 12:01 PM 5/13/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Hi Charlie,
>Well, I personally like those cryptic commands--each one does a single
>task well.  I hate tabbing through a long list of checkboxes and radio
>buttons (oops, which radio button in the last 15 did I check?)  As for
>quickness Jim, there are a few tasks in that unmentionable series of
>operating systems that are achievable very quickly--but I find most
>tasks very cumbersome on those graphical OS's.  Of course having worked
>on UNIX systems for about 8 years might have somethingto do with my
>attitude.
>
>      Jim Wantz WB0TFK
>On Mon, 13 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
>
> > Charlie:
> >
> > Well, there's absolutely nothing stopping someone from writing
> > such a menuing system!
> >
> > hint hint hint
> >
> > Getting people to use it instead of the command line? Well,
> > that's another story.
> >
> > Here's what I think will happen. Some peopl will chose it because
> > it seems to make life simple. Then they'll want to do something
> > the menus don't support. Then the author gets mail saying "why
> > doesn't your menu ..." Then were are you?
> >
> > Back at the command line?
> >
> > Hopefully. Because the alternative, a fully capable menuing
> > system, is far worse.
> >
> > Just goes to say there's no substitute for learning.
> >
> > On Mon, 13 May 2002, Charles Crawford wrote:
> >
> > > Jim,
> > >
> > >          There is access not far off.  I would like to see a menuing 
> system
> > > for Linix text mode that would reduce the criptic command line having to
> > > remember all those commands and switches.
> > >
> > > -- charlie Crawford.
> > > At 10:12 PM 05/12/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > > >Do you think we will ever have access to the gui?
> > > >
> > > >I find that I can access things faster in windows then in Linux text
> > > >mode.  I will admit that linux works much better then windows or the 
> winxp.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >_______________________________________________
> > > >Speakup mailing list
> > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: xwindows

[Toby Fisher]

On Mon, 13 May 2002, Charles Crawford wrote:

> Did you ever use TD in DOS?  That is what I am talking about.

You could probably right yourself a rudimentary system using bash or
similar, or perl for a bit more error-checking etc.  Your other problem,
though, is that you'd probably spend more time going through menus,
sub-menus etc etc and it'd end up taking far longer to find anything,
especially those less popular apps.

Cheers.

-- 
Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808
   Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
   See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Re: xwindows

[Janina Sajka]

Well, get the code from Jamal and port it. 

I never used td because its features were always behind what I
needed, i.e. the zip it supported wasn't the latest, the
WordPerfect it read wasn't the latest, etc.

And, to tell the truth, I saw no reason to learn td's cryptic
commands when I already knew a superior 4DOS command set.

If you learn bash, you can take that knowledge anywhere bash is.
If you learn a td clone, you can only use a td clone.

On Mon, 13 May 2002, Charles Crawford wrote:

> Did you ever use TD in DOS?  That is what I am talking about.
> 
> -- charlie Crawford.
> At 12:01 PM 5/13/02 -0400, you wrote:
> >Hi Charlie,
> >Well, I personally like those cryptic commands--each one does a single
> >task well.  I hate tabbing through a long list of checkboxes and radio
> >buttons (oops, which radio button in the last 15 did I check?)  As for
> >quickness Jim, there are a few tasks in that unmentionable series of
> >operating systems that are achievable very quickly--but I find most
> >tasks very cumbersome on those graphical OS's.  Of course having worked
> >on UNIX systems for about 8 years might have somethingto do with my
> >attitude.
> >
> >      Jim Wantz WB0TFK
> >On Mon, 13 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
> >
> > > Charlie:
> > >
> > > Well, there's absolutely nothing stopping someone from writing
> > > such a menuing system!
> > >
> > > hint hint hint
> > >
> > > Getting people to use it instead of the command line? Well,
> > > that's another story.
> > >
> > > Here's what I think will happen. Some peopl will chose it because
> > > it seems to make life simple. Then they'll want to do something
> > > the menus don't support. Then the author gets mail saying "why
> > > doesn't your menu ..." Then were are you?
> > >
> > > Back at the command line?
> > >
> > > Hopefully. Because the alternative, a fully capable menuing
> > > system, is far worse.
> > >
> > > Just goes to say there's no substitute for learning.
> > >
> > > On Mon, 13 May 2002, Charles Crawford wrote:
> > >
> > > > Jim,
> > > >
> > > >          There is access not far off.  I would like to see a menuing 
> > system
> > > > for Linix text mode that would reduce the criptic command line having to
> > > > remember all those commands and switches.
> > > >
> > > > -- charlie Crawford.
> > > > At 10:12 PM 05/12/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > > > >Do you think we will ever have access to the gui?
> > > > >
> > > > >I find that I can access things faster in windows then in Linux text
> > > > >mode.  I will admit that linux works much better then windows or the 
> > winxp.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >_______________________________________________
> > > > >Speakup mailing list
> > > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: xwindows

[Octavian Rasnita]

But a good idea would be something like Norton Commander for DOS which has a
command line.
If someone knows the command line parameters, they can use it, but if they
don't know, they can choose from a lot of menus.

A good idea would be a  kind of menus that can be easily changed without
programming.
For example, it would be nice to be able to go to the menu, choose the
commands menu/shell submenu, then from there choose "Print HTTPD.conf file"

This would be more simple than typing cat /etc/httpd/conf/httpd.conf for
some users because they don't need to remember all that path.
Of course, it was just an example, but there are a lot more complicated
command lines.

And that menuing system, should accept me to go to "Configure menu" submenu,
and there to be able to define other menus and submenus with the command
lines I want.
It should have a good "find files"  feature that has options  that can be
checked, or advanced options like Regular expressions.

This way, or the graphical interface, it is absolutely necessary for Linux
to beat Windows.

But yes, of course, somebody should make that program, but for free...
nobody  jumps.

I am a beginner in Linux, and reading the man pages is like reading  some
comments from a C or Perl code.
There is no real help in Linux like in Windows.
In my opinion, the help file is for those who don't know, for beginners, for
newbies.
The man pages  of Linux are kind of reference for advanced users who don't
remember well the command line parameters, etc.

That menuing program, if it is well done, and sold for a resonable fee (not
for free) would help many new Linux users.

Those new Linux users may want  to pay  for some nice programs that don't
cost as much as the Windows ones, and this way, the Linux community will
increase, and a lot of programmers will think to start learning programming
under Linux.

A system as Linux now, will remain only for advanced users, system
administrators, web space providers, and not for the large public.
The problem is that someone should start this for free, because, those Linux
advanced users won't pay for such a software.
They will use the command line  because they know how.

But making that software, or (for blind users)  making the graphical
interface accessible for us, will be profitable even they will start
creating it for free or for a very low cost.


Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 6:09 PM
Subject: Re: xwindows


Charlie:

Well, there's absolutely nothing stopping someone from writing
such a menuing system!

hint hint hint

Getting people to use it instead of the command line? Well,
that's another story.

Here's what I think will happen. Some peopl will chose it because
it seems to make life simple. Then they'll want to do something
the menus don't support. Then the author gets mail saying "why
doesn't your menu ..." Then were are you?

Back at the command line?

Hopefully. Because the alternative, a fully capable menuing
system, is far worse.

Just goes to say there's no substitute for learning.

On Mon, 13 May 2002, Charles Crawford wrote:

> Jim,
>
>          There is access not far off.  I would like to see a menuing
system
> for Linix text mode that would reduce the criptic command line having to
> remember all those commands and switches.
>
> -- charlie Crawford.
> At 10:12 PM 05/12/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> >Do you think we will ever have access to the gui?
> >
> >I find that I can access things faster in windows then in Linux text
> >mode.  I will admit that linux works much better then windows or the
winxp.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

--

Janina Sajka, Director
Technology Research and Development
Governmental Relations Group
American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: xwindows

[Cecil H. Whitley]

Hi,
Unfortunately for us all, there is already such a system.  It's called
xwindows/gnome and/or kde and/or windows maker.  The gui is the sighted
world's menuing system.  It keeps the user from having to remember commands.
They can simply mouse around (with tool tips and the like) until they find
what they think they are looking for.  With context sensative help, etc, a
text based menuing system just won't have the market.

At Cherry Point we had a dos based menuing system prior to windows 3.x.  It
was replaced by windows 3.x.  After all selecting a menu item is just one
step away from clicking on an icon.  A text based menuing system is too
restrictive for the power user and isn't expandable by the novice (after
all, they have to know the commands to put in the menu in the first place).
We used it as a mechanism to exert centralized control prior to windows.
After windows we just simply locked down the gui.

I agree that it would simplify things (and at this point that would be a
great help to me) but I also believe that the market segment it would appeal
to is very small (same old story).  If I had programming time to devote to
something, it certainly would not be that.

Regards,

Cecil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@home.ro>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 9:04 PM
Subject: Re: xwindows


> But a good idea would be something like Norton Commander for DOS which has
a
> command line.
> If someone knows the command line parameters, they can use it, but if they
> don't know, they can choose from a lot of menus.
>
> A good idea would be a  kind of menus that can be easily changed without
> programming.
> For example, it would be nice to be able to go to the menu, choose the
> commands menu/shell submenu, then from there choose "Print HTTPD.conf
file"
>
> This would be more simple than typing cat /etc/httpd/conf/httpd.conf for
> some users because they don't need to remember all that path.
> Of course, it was just an example, but there are a lot more complicated
> command lines.
>
> And that menuing system, should accept me to go to "Configure menu"
submenu,
> and there to be able to define other menus and submenus with the command
> lines I want.
> It should have a good "find files"  feature that has options  that can be
> checked, or advanced options like Regular expressions.
>
> This way, or the graphical interface, it is absolutely necessary for Linux
> to beat Windows.
>
> But yes, of course, somebody should make that program, but for free...
> nobody  jumps.
>
> I am a beginner in Linux, and reading the man pages is like reading  some
> comments from a C or Perl code.
> There is no real help in Linux like in Windows.
> In my opinion, the help file is for those who don't know, for beginners,
for
> newbies.
> The man pages  of Linux are kind of reference for advanced users who don't
> remember well the command line parameters, etc.
>
> That menuing program, if it is well done, and sold for a resonable fee
(not
> for free) would help many new Linux users.
>
> Those new Linux users may want  to pay  for some nice programs that don't
> cost as much as the Windows ones, and this way, the Linux community will
> increase, and a lot of programmers will think to start learning
programming
> under Linux.
>
> A system as Linux now, will remain only for advanced users, system
> administrators, web space providers, and not for the large public.
> The problem is that someone should start this for free, because, those
Linux
> advanced users won't pay for such a software.
> They will use the command line  because they know how.
>
> But making that software, or (for blind users)  making the graphical
> interface accessible for us, will be profitable even they will start
> creating it for free or for a very low cost.
>
>
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 6:09 PM
> Subject: Re: xwindows
>
>
> Charlie:
>
> Well, there's absolutely nothing stopping someone from writing
> such a menuing system!
>
> hint hint hint
>
> Getting people to use it instead of the command line? Well,
> that's another story.
>
> Here's what I think will happen. Some peopl will chose it because
> it seems to make life simple. Then they'll want to do something
> the menus don't support. Then the author gets mail saying "why
> doesn't your menu ..." Then were are you?
>
> Back at the command line?
>
> Hopefully. Because the alternative, a fully capable menuing
> system, is far worse.
>
> Just goes to say there's no substitute for learning.
>
> On Mon, 13 May 2002, Charles Crawford wrote:
>
> > Jim,
> >
> >          There is access not far off.  I would like to see a menuing
> system
> > for Linix text mode that would reduce the criptic command line having to
> > remember all those commands and switches.
> >
> > -- charlie Crawford.
> > At 10:12 PM 05/12/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > >Do you think we will ever have access to the gui?
> > >
> > >I find that I can access things faster in windows then in Linux text
> > >mode.  I will admit that linux works much better then windows or the
> winxp.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Speakup mailing list
> > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: xwindows

[Ameer Armaly]

Exactly!  You have no real way to start.  When I started using jfw in 1997,
I listened to the tapes, and in 1998, started reading the windows help.
Once in the summer, I was reading the msn troubleshooter for fun, and
stumbled on of those "the troubleshooter can't help you." it had a special
part thaqt said "call x if your in y, or y if you are in z" or that kind of
thing.
Anyway, I called a spanish phone number, and kept hitting numbers til
someone answered, and then promptly hung up <lol>.  I think the only reason
linux is so crapy in so many places is that the people that are writing it
don't have a long-term goal.  For example, the goal for most software
development companies is to make money.  Since the only thing in linux that
I know of that you can buy is oss and installation cds, there's not much of
a goal.  But they do it anyway.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@home.ro>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 9:04 PM
Subject: Re: xwindows


> But a good idea would be something like Norton Commander for DOS which has
a
> command line.
> If someone knows the command line parameters, they can use it, but if they
> don't know, they can choose from a lot of menus.
>
> A good idea would be a  kind of menus that can be easily changed without
> programming.
> For example, it would be nice to be able to go to the menu, choose the
> commands menu/shell submenu, then from there choose "Print HTTPD.conf
file"
>
> This would be more simple than typing cat /etc/httpd/conf/httpd.conf for
> some users because they don't need to remember all that path.
> Of course, it was just an example, but there are a lot more complicated
> command lines.
>
> And that menuing system, should accept me to go to "Configure menu"
submenu,
> and there to be able to define other menus and submenus with the command
> lines I want.
> It should have a good "find files"  feature that has options  that can be
> checked, or advanced options like Regular expressions.
>
> This way, or the graphical interface, it is absolutely necessary for Linux
> to beat Windows.
>
> But yes, of course, somebody should make that program, but for free...
> nobody  jumps.
>
> I am a beginner in Linux, and reading the man pages is like reading  some
> comments from a C or Perl code.
> There is no real help in Linux like in Windows.
> In my opinion, the help file is for those who don't know, for beginners,
for
> newbies.
> The man pages  of Linux are kind of reference for advanced users who don't
> remember well the command line parameters, etc.
>
> That menuing program, if it is well done, and sold for a resonable fee
(not
> for free) would help many new Linux users.
>
> Those new Linux users may want  to pay  for some nice programs that don't
> cost as much as the Windows ones, and this way, the Linux community will
> increase, and a lot of programmers will think to start learning
programming
> under Linux.
>
> A system as Linux now, will remain only for advanced users, system
> administrators, web space providers, and not for the large public.
> The problem is that someone should start this for free, because, those
Linux
> advanced users won't pay for such a software.
> They will use the command line  because they know how.
>
> But making that software, or (for blind users)  making the graphical
> interface accessible for us, will be profitable even they will start
> creating it for free or for a very low cost.
>
>
> Teddy,
> orasnita@home.ro
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 6:09 PM
> Subject: Re: xwindows
>
>
> Charlie:
>
> Well, there's absolutely nothing stopping someone from writing
> such a menuing system!
>
> hint hint hint
>
> Getting people to use it instead of the command line? Well,
> that's another story.
>
> Here's what I think will happen. Some peopl will chose it because
> it seems to make life simple. Then they'll want to do something
> the menus don't support. Then the author gets mail saying "why
> doesn't your menu ..." Then were are you?
>
> Back at the command line?
>
> Hopefully. Because the alternative, a fully capable menuing
> system, is far worse.
>
> Just goes to say there's no substitute for learning.
>
> On Mon, 13 May 2002, Charles Crawford wrote:
>
> > Jim,
> >
> >          There is access not far off.  I would like to see a menuing
> system
> > for Linix text mode that would reduce the criptic command line having to
> > remember all those commands and switches.
> >
> > -- charlie Crawford.
> > At 10:12 PM 05/12/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > >Do you think we will ever have access to the gui?
> > >
> > >I find that I can access things faster in windows then in Linux text
> > >mode.  I will admit that linux works much better then windows or the
> winxp.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Speakup mailing list
> > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: xwindows

[Charles Crawford]

This is helpful.

Thanks.

-- charlie.
At 10:20 PM 5/13/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Exactly!  You have no real way to start.  When I started using jfw in 1997,
>I listened to the tapes, and in 1998, started reading the windows help.
>Once in the summer, I was reading the msn troubleshooter for fun, and
>stumbled on of those "the troubleshooter can't help you." it had a special
>part thaqt said "call x if your in y, or y if you are in z" or that kind of
>thing.
>Anyway, I called a spanish phone number, and kept hitting numbers til
>someone answered, and then promptly hung up <lol>.  I think the only reason
>linux is so crapy in so many places is that the people that are writing it
>don't have a long-term goal.  For example, the goal for most software
>development companies is to make money.  Since the only thing in linux that
>I know of that you can buy is oss and installation cds, there's not much of
>a goal.  But they do it anyway.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@home.ro>
>To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 9:04 PM
>Subject: Re: xwindows
>
>
> > But a good idea would be something like Norton Commander for DOS which has
>a
> > command line.
> > If someone knows the command line parameters, they can use it, but if they
> > don't know, they can choose from a lot of menus.
> >
> > A good idea would be a  kind of menus that can be easily changed without
> > programming.
> > For example, it would be nice to be able to go to the menu, choose the
> > commands menu/shell submenu, then from there choose "Print HTTPD.conf
>file"
> >
> > This would be more simple than typing cat /etc/httpd/conf/httpd.conf for
> > some users because they don't need to remember all that path.
> > Of course, it was just an example, but there are a lot more complicated
> > command lines.
> >
> > And that menuing system, should accept me to go to "Configure menu"
>submenu,
> > and there to be able to define other menus and submenus with the command
> > lines I want.
> > It should have a good "find files"  feature that has options  that can be
> > checked, or advanced options like Regular expressions.
> >
> > This way, or the graphical interface, it is absolutely necessary for Linux
> > to beat Windows.
> >
> > But yes, of course, somebody should make that program, but for free...
> > nobody  jumps.
> >
> > I am a beginner in Linux, and reading the man pages is like reading  some
> > comments from a C or Perl code.
> > There is no real help in Linux like in Windows.
> > In my opinion, the help file is for those who don't know, for beginners,
>for
> > newbies.
> > The man pages  of Linux are kind of reference for advanced users who don't
> > remember well the command line parameters, etc.
> >
> > That menuing program, if it is well done, and sold for a resonable fee
>(not
> > for free) would help many new Linux users.
> >
> > Those new Linux users may want  to pay  for some nice programs that don't
> > cost as much as the Windows ones, and this way, the Linux community will
> > increase, and a lot of programmers will think to start learning
>programming
> > under Linux.
> >
> > A system as Linux now, will remain only for advanced users, system
> > administrators, web space providers, and not for the large public.
> > The problem is that someone should start this for free, because, those
>Linux
> > advanced users won't pay for such a software.
> > They will use the command line  because they know how.
> >
> > But making that software, or (for blind users)  making the graphical
> > interface accessible for us, will be profitable even they will start
> > creating it for free or for a very low cost.
> >
> >
> > Teddy,
> > orasnita@home.ro
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 6:09 PM
> > Subject: Re: xwindows
> >
> >
> > Charlie:
> >
> > Well, there's absolutely nothing stopping someone from writing
> > such a menuing system!
> >
> > hint hint hint
> >
> > Getting people to use it instead of the command line? Well,
> > that's another story.
> >
> > Here's what I think will happen. Some peopl will chose it because
> > it seems to make life simple. Then they'll want to do something
> > the menus don't support. Then the author gets mail saying "why
> > doesn't your menu ..." Then were are you?
> >
> > Back at the command line?
> >
> > Hopefully. Because the alternative, a fully capable menuing
> > system, is far worse.
> >
> > Just goes to say there's no substitute for learning.
> >
> > On Mon, 13 May 2002, Charles Crawford wrote:
> >
> > > Jim,
> > >
> > >          There is access not far off.  I would like to see a menuing
> > system
> > > for Linix text mode that would reduce the criptic command line having to
> > > remember all those commands and switches.
> > >
> > > -- charlie Crawford.
> > > At 10:12 PM 05/12/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > > >Do you think we will ever have access to the gui?
> > > >
> > > >I find that I can access things faster in windows then in Linux text
> > > >mode.  I will admit that linux works much better then windows or the
> > winxp.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >_______________________________________________
> > > >Speakup mailing list
> > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Janina Sajka, Director
> > Technology Research and Development
> > Governmental Relations Group
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: xwindows

[Toby Fisher]

On Tue, 14 May 2002, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> But a good idea would be something like Norton Commander for DOS which has a
> command line.
> If someone knows the command line parameters, they can use it, but if they
> don't know, they can choose from a lot of menus.
>
> A good idea would be a  kind of menus that can be easily changed without
> programming.
> For example, it would be nice to be able to go to the menu, choose the
> commands menu/shell submenu, then from there choose "Print HTTPD.conf file"
>
> This would be more simple than typing cat /etc/httpd/conf/httpd.conf for
> some users because they don't need to remember all that path.
> Of course, it was just an example, but there are a lot more complicated
> command lines.

The problem is, that to take your idea to its logical conclusion, you
would end up with say , a cdrecord menu, then a load of checkboxes for the
commandline options you wanted, then you might have to give some switches
a parameter, it'd just get too messy.

And anyway, if that's the kind of thing you want, there's linuxconf, bane
of my previous working life.

Cheers.

-- 
Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808
   Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
   See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Re: xwindows

[Steve Holmes]

And that's the beauty of script writing learned at the user level
where custom menu type scripts can be writtin for just about
anything.  I'm currently working on a menu solution for burning cd's
for example.

On Mon, May 13, 2002 at 11:09:04AM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> Charlie:
> 
> Well, there's absolutely nothing stopping someone from writing
> such a menuing system! 
> 
> hint hint hint
> 
> Getting people to use it instead of the command line? Well,
> that's another story.
> 
> Here's what I think will happen. Some peopl will chose it because
> it seems to make life simple. Then they'll want to do something
> the menus don't support. Then the author gets mail saying "why
> doesn't your menu ..." Then were are you?
> 
> Back at the command line?
> 
> Hopefully. Because the alternative, a fully capable menuing
> system, is far worse.
> 
> Just goes to say there's no substitute for learning.
> 
> On Mon, 13 May 2002, Charles Crawford wrote:
> 
> > Jim,
> > 
> >          There is access not far off.  I would like to see a menuing system 
> > for Linix text mode that would reduce the criptic command line having to 
> > remember all those commands and switches.
> > 
> > -- charlie Crawford.
> > At 10:12 PM 05/12/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > >Do you think we will ever have access to the gui?
> > >
> > >I find that I can access things faster in windows then in Linux text 
> > >mode.  I will admit that linux works much better then windows or the winxp.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Speakup mailing list
> > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> -- 
> 	
> 				Janina Sajka, Director
> 				Technology Research and Development
> 				Governmental Relations Group
> 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: xwindows

[Charles Crawford]

Janina,

         Well, I kind of agree and disagree.  One reason why Windows is so 
popular is the lack of heavy learning of command line commands.  DOS was 
criptic, but Linux is even more so.  Hence, if we want to get the command 
line to be supported by many more people than currently using it, then we 
need to come up with a menuing system that eliminates alot of the criptic 
stuff.  If i can launch a program in linux from a menu and then the program 
gives me option like Pine, then it would work well.  I am talking about all 
the system stuff that is so exacting and with all due respect to the 
programmers, not very intuitive or descritive.

-- charlie.
At 11:09 AM 5/13/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Charlie:
>
>Well, there's absolutely nothing stopping someone from writing
>such a menuing system!
>
>hint hint hint
>
>Getting people to use it instead of the command line? Well,
>that's another story.
>
>Here's what I think will happen. Some peopl will chose it because
>it seems to make life simple. Then they'll want to do something
>the menus don't support. Then the author gets mail saying "why
>doesn't your menu ..." Then were are you?
>
>Back at the command line?
>
>Hopefully. Because the alternative, a fully capable menuing
>system, is far worse.
>
>Just goes to say there's no substitute for learning.
>
>On Mon, 13 May 2002, Charles Crawford wrote:
>
> > Jim,
> >
> >          There is access not far off.  I would like to see a menuing 
> system
> > for Linix text mode that would reduce the criptic command line having to
> > remember all those commands and switches.
> >
> > -- charlie Crawford.
> > At 10:12 PM 05/12/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > >Do you think we will ever have access to the gui?
> > >
> > >I find that I can access things faster in windows then in Linux text
> > >mode.  I will admit that linux works much better then windows or the 
> winxp.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Speakup mailing list
> > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>--
>
>                                 Janina Sajka, Director
>                                 Technology Research and Development
>                                 Governmental Relations Group
>                                 American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
>Email: janina@afb.net           Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
>Chair, Accessibility SIG
>Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>http://www.openebook.org
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: xwindows

[Toby Fisher]

On Mon, 13 May 2002, Charles Crawford wrote:

> Janina,
>
>          Well, I kind of agree and disagree.  One reason why Windows is so
> popular is the lack of heavy learning of command line commands.  DOS was
> criptic, but Linux is even more so.  Hence, if we want to get the command
> line to be supported by many more people than currently using it, then we
> need to come up with a menuing system that eliminates alot of the criptic
> stuff.  If i can launch a program in linux from a menu and then the program
> gives me option like Pine, then it would work well.  I am talking about all
> the system stuff that is so exacting and with all due respect to the
> programmers, not very intuitive or descritive.

One way to put this is to say that things have improved greatly, with the
use of things like ncurses and also much more documentation than there
ever used to be - if you used Linux back in 1995 you'll know what I mean,
though even then it could be adequate.  Another way to put it, if I were
being particularly blunt, which I'm not, is r t fm.

Ok, so people don't use uniform interfaces, but that's great, cos it means
that those that don't like a certain interface have a choice.

Cheers.

-- 
Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808
   Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
   See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Re: xwindows

[Janina Sajka]

On Mon, 13 May 2002, Toby Fisher wrote:

> Ok, so people don't use uniform interfaces, but that's great, cos it means
> that those that don't like a certain interface have a choice.


Indeed. Choices abound. You don't like bash? Cool, try csh, tcsh,
or zsh, or even ksh. 

Or, you can get involved in building a menu interface like
Charlie wants. Please note I never said "you can't," or even "you
shouldn't." I just say why I don't think much of them. I always
invite him to go for it.

Heck, maybe Charlie, you should go to http://www.freshmeat.net
and put menu in the search box, or maybe "linux shell menu," and
see what's out there.

Now, X is another story.
Don't like GNOME? 

Too bad! <grin>

Unless, of course, you can see.

> 
> Cheers.
> 
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: xwindows

[Janina Sajka]

It's quite trivial to build menus for linux. They're well
supported by bash.

You may recall all of the old ISP's had them -- Concentric,
Inteport, etc., etc. Those were just shell scripts.

Nothing is stopping anyone. The entire process is very
accessible.

So, why aren't people talking about them? Maybe because they're
not that helpful after all.

On Mon, 13 May 2002, Charles Crawford wrote:

> Janina,
> 
>          Well, I kind of agree and disagree.  One reason why Windows is so 
> popular is the lack of heavy learning of command line commands.  DOS was 
> criptic, but Linux is even more so.  Hence, if we want to get the command 
> line to be supported by many more people than currently using it, then we 
> need to come up with a menuing system that eliminates alot of the criptic 
> stuff.  If i can launch a program in linux from a menu and then the program 
> gives me option like Pine, then it would work well.  I am talking about all 
> the system stuff that is so exacting and with all due respect to the 
> programmers, not very intuitive or descritive.
> 
> -- charlie.
> At 11:09 AM 5/13/02 -0400, you wrote:
> >Charlie:
> >
> >Well, there's absolutely nothing stopping someone from writing
> >such a menuing system!
> >
> >hint hint hint
> >
> >Getting people to use it instead of the command line? Well,
> >that's another story.
> >
> >Here's what I think will happen. Some peopl will chose it because
> >it seems to make life simple. Then they'll want to do something
> >the menus don't support. Then the author gets mail saying "why
> >doesn't your menu ..." Then were are you?
> >
> >Back at the command line?
> >
> >Hopefully. Because the alternative, a fully capable menuing
> >system, is far worse.
> >
> >Just goes to say there's no substitute for learning.
> >
> >On Mon, 13 May 2002, Charles Crawford wrote:
> >
> > > Jim,
> > >
> > >          There is access not far off.  I would like to see a menuing 
> > system
> > > for Linix text mode that would reduce the criptic command line having to
> > > remember all those commands and switches.
> > >
> > > -- charlie Crawford.
> > > At 10:12 PM 05/12/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > > >Do you think we will ever have access to the gui?
> > > >
> > > >I find that I can access things faster in windows then in Linux text
> > > >mode.  I will admit that linux works much better then windows or the 
> > winxp.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >_______________________________________________
> > > >Speakup mailing list
> > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >--
> >
> >                                 Janina Sajka, Director
> >                                 Technology Research and Development
> >                                 Governmental Relations Group
> >                                 American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> >Email: janina@afb.net           Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> >Chair, Accessibility SIG
> >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> >http://www.openebook.org
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: xwindows

[Charles Crawford]

>Hi toby and all,


         You said: "Another way to put it, if I were
>being particularly blunt, which I'm not, is r t fm.
>
>Ok, so people don't use uniform interfaces, but that's great, cos it means
>that those that don't like a certain interface have a choice."


   While I understand what you are saying, the statement only reinforces 
the view of the vast majority of people who reject Linux and Unix for that 
matter based upon the real difficulties of using them.

         I do not consider myself a novice at computing and I love the text 
mode of Linux and it's speed, but spending inordinate amounts of time 
trying to learn and use this obviously great system is a time consumer 
neither I nor most other folks can aford.

         Even when I have consulted the how to docs, I have to say that 
they often only sort of help.  So why is there not a tape tutorial for 
Linux tht can be used by the average blind person?  Maybe that is more 
needed than any other project.

-- Charlie.

Re: xwindows

[Will Smith]

Hello Charles,

Thanks for saying so well what I've been thinking for years!  I'd be glad
to purchase a linux "how-to" tutorial that would  provide a solid and
detailed step by step guide on how to set up and run slackware and debian
for my daily online needs.

I'm surprised that no one has been willing or able to create such a
tutorial product, as I believe it would fill a great and growing need by
many blind computer users.

Will
wilsmith@iglou.com
 On Tue, 14 May 2002, Charles Crawford wrote:

>
> >Hi toby and all,
>
>
>          You said: "Another way to put it, if I were
> >being particularly blunt, which I'm not, is r t fm.
> >
> >Ok, so people don't use uniform interfaces, but that's great, cos it means
> >that those that don't like a certain interface have a choice."
>
>
>    While I understand what you are saying, the statement only reinforces
> the view of the vast majority of people who reject Linux and Unix for that
> matter based upon the real difficulties of using them.
>
>          I do not consider myself a novice at computing and I love the text
> mode of Linux and it's speed, but spending inordinate amounts of time
> trying to learn and use this obviously great system is a time consumer
> neither I nor most other folks can aford.
>
>          Even when I have consulted the how to docs, I have to say that
> they often only sort of help.  So why is there not a tape tutorial for
> Linux tht can be used by the average blind person?  Maybe that is more
> needed than any other project.
>
> -- Charlie.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: xwindows

[Toby Fisher]

On Tue, 14 May 2002, Will Smith wrote:

> I'm surprised that no one has been willing or able to create such a
> tutorial product, as I believe it would fill a great and growing need by
> many blind computer users.

Unfortunately, I'm not.  Think about it.
The first problem you've got is to try and cover every conceivable piece
of relevant hardware, modems (hardware or winmodems), sound cards,
mother-board chipsets, ith or without another os already installed,
network cards, dsl access (which can differ, some need ppp over atm, some
don't), where ould it end?

Cheers.

-- 
Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808
   Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
   See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Re: xwindows

[Will Smith]

Hi there,

Actually there'd be good reason to design such a tutorial around a readily
available, relatively inexpensive PC available widely as a refurbished
unit.  Something like one of the Compaq 4000 or earlier HP Pavilion or
Dell come to mind.  Describe a unit using a Dubltalk card, Soundblaster
16, with their original CD unit.  Use a widely availble and solid modem
that works with linux.

This should cover it for a wide number of us who'd like to start with a
modestly priced and widely avalable PC, devoted entirely to running linux
for the first time.

I do realize hardware variations can cause troubles, and  that's why I
would recommend using a widely available unit.

Will
wilsmith@iglou.com
 On Tue, 14 May 2002, Toby
Fisher wrote:

> On Tue, 14 May 2002, Will Smith wrote:
>
> > I'm surprised that no one has been willing or able to create such a
> > tutorial product, as I believe it would fill a great and growing need by
> > many blind computer users.
>
> Unfortunately, I'm not.  Think about it.
> The first problem you've got is to try and cover every conceivable piece
> of relevant hardware, modems (hardware or winmodems), sound cards,
> mother-board chipsets, ith or without another os already installed,
> network cards, dsl access (which can differ, some need ppp over atm, some
> don't), where ould it end?
>
> Cheers.
>
> --
> Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
> Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
> ICQ: #61744808
>    Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
>    See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: xwindows

[David Poehlman]

heck, we could even put together a shop to build them to speck and put
the instructions out with the units.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Will Smith" <wilsmith@iglou.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 1:51 PM
Subject: Re: xwindows


Hi there,

Actually there'd be good reason to design such a tutorial around a
readily
available, relatively inexpensive PC available widely as a refurbished
unit.  Something like one of the Compaq 4000 or earlier HP Pavilion or
Dell come to mind.  Describe a unit using a Dubltalk card, Soundblaster
16, with their original CD unit.  Use a widely availble and solid modem
that works with linux.

This should cover it for a wide number of us who'd like to start with a
modestly priced and widely avalable PC, devoted entirely to running
linux
for the first time.

I do realize hardware variations can cause troubles, and  that's why I
would recommend using a widely available unit.

Will
wilsmith@iglou.com
 On Tue, 14 May 2002, Toby
Fisher wrote:

> On Tue, 14 May 2002, Will Smith wrote:
>
> > I'm surprised that no one has been willing or able to create such a
> > tutorial product, as I believe it would fill a great and growing
need by
> > many blind computer users.
>
> Unfortunately, I'm not.  Think about it.
> The first problem you've got is to try and cover every conceivable
piece
> of relevant hardware, modems (hardware or winmodems), sound cards,
> mother-board chipsets, ith or without another os already installed,
> network cards, dsl access (which can differ, some need ppp over atm,
some
> don't), where ould it end?
>
> Cheers.
>
> --
> Toby Fisher Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
> Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272 Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
> ICQ: #61744808
>    Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
>    See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>



_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: xwindows

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

Will, there's a guy up in Canada who's doing this very thing.  I'll
give you his name if you want it.

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: xwindows

[Will Smith]

Hi Ann,

Thanks for telling me about this, and indeed several on this list  might
like this info too!  Forthe record, this is the first I've heard of it.


Will
wilsmith@iglou.com


On Tue, 14 May 2002, Ann Parsons wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Will, there's a guy up in Canada who's doing this very thing.  I'll
> give you his name if you want it.
>
> Ann P.
>
> --
> 			Ann K. Parsons
> email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
> WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: xwindows

[charles crawford]

A guy doing what in Canada?

-- charlie.


On Tue, 14 May 2002, Ann Parsons wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Will, there's a guy up in Canada who's doing this very thing.  I'll
> give you his name if you want it.
>
> Ann P.
>
>

Re: xwindows

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

Sorry, I guess I should have quoted some of the msg.  But Gary Murphy
was offering computers complete with emacspeak on them.  Dunnow if
he's still doing it, but I have his address someplace.

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: xwindows

['Georgina']

Hi

Ummm, possibly.  I guess it depends upon what country you are in to
define a typical PC.

I think that we often forget the mp3 tutorials that are mainly held on
Main Menu.  Surely shouldn't focus be upon extending them?

Gena



Blindness Advocacy and Self Help Online www.bashonline.org

>Hi there,
>
>Actually there'd be good reason to design such a tutorial around a readily
>available, relatively inexpensive PC available widely as a refurbished
>unit.  Something like one of the Compaq 4000 or earlier HP Pavilion or
>Dell come to mind.  Describe a unit using a Dubltalk card, Soundblaster
>16, with their original CD unit.  Use a widely availble and solid modem
>that works with linux.
>
>This should cover it for a wide number of us who'd like to start with a
>modestly priced and widely avalable PC, devoted entirely to running linux
>for the first time.
>
>I do realize hardware variations can cause troubles, and  that's why I
>would recommend using a widely available unit.
>
>Will
>wilsmith@iglou.com
> On Tue, 14 May 2002, Toby
>Fisher wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 14 May 2002, Will Smith wrote:
>>
>> > I'm surprised that no one has been willing or able to create such a
>> > tutorial product, as I believe it would fill a great and growing need by
>> > many blind computer users.
>>
>> Unfortunately, I'm not.  Think about it.
>> The first problem you've got is to try and cover every conceivable piece
>> of relevant hardware, modems (hardware or winmodems), sound cards,
>> mother-board chipsets, ith or without another os already installed,
>> network cards, dsl access (which can differ, some need ppp over atm, some
>> don't), where ould it end?
>>
>> Cheers.
>>
>> --
>> Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
>> Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
>> ICQ: #61744808
>>    Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
>>    See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: xwindows

[charles crawford]

	Perhaps we can find the grant money to have a tutorial really done
well.

-- charlie.


On Tue, 14 May 2002, Will Smith wrote:

> Hello Charles,
>
> Thanks for saying so well what I've been thinking for years!  I'd be glad
> to purchase a linux "how-to" tutorial that would  provide a solid and
> detailed step by step guide on how to set up and run slackware and debian
> for my daily online needs.
>
> I'm surprised that no one has been willing or able to create such a
> tutorial product, as I believe it would fill a great and growing need by
> many blind computer users.
>
> Will
> wilsmith@iglou.com
>  On Tue, 14 May 2002, Charles Crawford wrote:
>
> >
> > >Hi toby and all,
> >
> >
> >          You said: "Another way to put it, if I were
> > >being particularly blunt, which I'm not, is r t fm.
> > >
> > >Ok, so people don't use uniform interfaces, but that's great, cos it means
> > >that those that don't like a certain interface have a choice."
> >
> >
> >    While I understand what you are saying, the statement only reinforces
> > the view of the vast majority of people who reject Linux and Unix for that
> > matter based upon the real difficulties of using them.
> >
> >          I do not consider myself a novice at computing and I love the text
> > mode of Linux and it's speed, but spending inordinate amounts of time
> > trying to learn and use this obviously great system is a time consumer
> > neither I nor most other folks can aford.
> >
> >          Even when I have consulted the how to docs, I have to say that
> > they often only sort of help.  So why is there not a tape tutorial for
> > Linux tht can be used by the average blind person?  Maybe that is more
> > needed than any other project.
> >
> > -- Charlie.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: xwindows

[Steve Holmes]

I think there's a few reasons why.  First of all, it takes time; the
time spent will be the free available time someone has to sit down and
do such a thing.  Another is that basic needs vary enough that it may
be quite difficult to come up with a generic tutorial that would fit
everyone.  Some while back, there were two brief introductions to
Linux done for the Main Menu program.  Brief, yes; a bit specific?
yes.  Joe Norton's deal mainly spent time on getting and installing
Slackware and Matt Campbell's project talked about Debian and doing
some basic functions on getting around on Linux.  I'm not sure if
either of these programs will really get someone going with Linux, but
it is a good start.

This all-in-one tutorial would have to address the differences among
the popular distributions of Linux, how to use and configure several
clients like mail for use, how to configure lynx since that seems to
be the browser of choice, some basic sys admin needs such as getting
PPP to work or configuring the network interface.  Gee did I miss
anything?:) You can see quickly how this tutorial becomes a *HUGE*
project.  I wonder how much time Jonathan has available for this; it
might take six months:)  I don't know, might not take that long but it
is a mammoth project indeed.

On Tue, May 14, 2002 at 01:26:52PM -0400, Will Smith wrote:
> Hello Charles,
> 
> Thanks for saying so well what I've been thinking for years!  I'd be glad
> to purchase a linux "how-to" tutorial that would  provide a solid and
> detailed step by step guide on how to set up and run slackware and debian
> for my daily online needs.
> 
> I'm surprised that no one has been willing or able to create such a
> tutorial product, as I believe it would fill a great and growing need by
> many blind computer users.
> 
> Will
> wilsmith@iglou.com
>  On Tue, 14 May 2002, Charles Crawford wrote:
> 
> >
> > >Hi toby and all,
> >
> >
> >          You said: "Another way to put it, if I were
> > >being particularly blunt, which I'm not, is r t fm.
> > >
> > >Ok, so people don't use uniform interfaces, but that's great, cos it means
> > >that those that don't like a certain interface have a choice."
> >
> >
> >    While I understand what you are saying, the statement only reinforces
> > the view of the vast majority of people who reject Linux and Unix for that
> > matter based upon the real difficulties of using them.
> >
> >          I do not consider myself a novice at computing and I love the text
> > mode of Linux and it's speed, but spending inordinate amounts of time
> > trying to learn and use this obviously great system is a time consumer
> > neither I nor most other folks can aford.
> >
> >          Even when I have consulted the how to docs, I have to say that
> > they often only sort of help.  So why is there not a tape tutorial for
> > Linux tht can be used by the average blind person?  Maybe that is more
> > needed than any other project.
> >
> > -- Charlie.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: xwindows

[Erik Heil]

Hi, Steve.  I would be interested in helping to create such a tutorial.
However, we would have to have some standard course, because their are so
mahy istros out there.  It may be safe to assume that I would concentrate on
Debian, because this is mainly what I am ufamiliar with.  As far as setting
up Lynx and pine goes, that's a pretty streight forward process.  You nneed
not be concerned with building the applications from source code, because
there are always precompiled binaries available.  In my case, editing a
makefile and building a particular application from its source tree really
isn't a problem.  Then again this might be considered an advanced topic.
I'd be interested to hear any comments from you and the list at large as a
whole.  For those of you who may be at the NFB convention this year in
Louieville, I was even thinking of doing some Linux promoting, perhaps
creating a few CD sets of the binary and source Debian distros.
--Regards,
Erik
>eheil@rcn.com>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Holmes" <steve@holmesgrown.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 8:16 AM
Subject: Re: xwindows


> I think there's a few reasons why.  First of all, it takes time; the
> time spent will be the free available time someone has to sit down and
> do such a thing.  Another is that basic needs vary enough that it may
> be quite difficult to come up with a generic tutorial that would fit
> everyone.  Some while back, there were two brief introductions to
> Linux done for the Main Menu program.  Brief, yes; a bit specific?
> yes.  Joe Norton's deal mainly spent time on getting and installing
> Slackware and Matt Campbell's project talked about Debian and doing
> some basic functions on getting around on Linux.  I'm not sure if
> either of these programs will really get someone going with Linux, but
> it is a good start.
>
> This all-in-one tutorial would have to address the differences among
> the popular distributions of Linux, how to use and configure several
> clients like mail for use, how to configure lynx since that seems to
> be the browser of choice, some basic sys admin needs such as getting
> PPP to work or configuring the network interface.  Gee did I miss
> anything?:) You can see quickly how this tutorial becomes a *HUGE*
> project.  I wonder how much time Jonathan has available for this; it
> might take six months:)  I don't know, might not take that long but it
> is a mammoth project indeed.
>
> On Tue, May 14, 2002 at 01:26:52PM -0400, Will Smith wrote:
> > Hello Charles,
> >
> > Thanks for saying so well what I've been thinking for years!  I'd be
glad
> > to purchase a linux "how-to" tutorial that would  provide a solid and
> > detailed step by step guide on how to set up and run slackware and
debian
> > for my daily online needs.
> >
> > I'm surprised that no one has been willing or able to create such a
> > tutorial product, as I believe it would fill a great and growing need by
> > many blind computer users.
> >
> > Will
> > wilsmith@iglou.com
> >  On Tue, 14 May 2002, Charles Crawford wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > >Hi toby and all,
> > >
> > >
> > >          You said: "Another way to put it, if I were
> > > >being particularly blunt, which I'm not, is r t fm.
> > > >
> > > >Ok, so people don't use uniform interfaces, but that's great, cos it
means
> > > >that those that don't like a certain interface have a choice."
> > >
> > >
> > >    While I understand what you are saying, the statement only
reinforces
> > > the view of the vast majority of people who reject Linux and Unix for
that
> > > matter based upon the real difficulties of using them.
> > >
> > >          I do not consider myself a novice at computing and I love the
text
> > > mode of Linux and it's speed, but spending inordinate amounts of time
> > > trying to learn and use this obviously great system is a time consumer
> > > neither I nor most other folks can aford.
> > >
> > >          Even when I have consulted the how to docs, I have to say
that
> > > they often only sort of help.  So why is there not a tape tutorial for
> > > Linux tht can be used by the average blind person?  Maybe that is more
> > > needed than any other project.
> > >
> > > -- Charlie.
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: xwindows

[Toby Fisher]

hOn Wed, 15 May 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:

<snip>

> This all-in-one tutorial would have to address the differences among
> the popular distributions of Linux, how to use and configure several
> clients like mail for use, how to configure lynx since that seems to
> be the browser of choice, some basic sys admin needs such as getting
> PPP to work or configuring the network interface.  Gee did I miss
> anything?:) You can see quickly how this tutorial becomes a *HUGE*
> project.  I wonder how much time Jonathan has available for this; it
> might take six months:)  I don't know, might not take that long but it
> is a mammoth project indeed.

A lot of care would also have to be taken to avoid confusing the new user,
which could be done very easily.  I think it would also be necessary to
state at the beginning the steps involved, i.e. choose distro,
installation, otherwise there is a danger that a user will take one look
and come to the conclusion that there's loads to do, it sounds
complicated, and they won't bother.

Cheers.

-- 
Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808
   Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
   See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Re: xwindows

[Brian Borowski]

I can't figure out, how having a menuing  system, is going to help the
cammand line?

Brian Borowski



On Mon, 13 May 2002, Charles Crawford wrote:

> Janina,
>
>          Well, I kind of agree and disagree.  One reason why Windows is so
> popular is the lack of heavy learning of command line commands.  DOS was
> criptic, but Linux is even more so.  Hence, if we want to get the command
> line to be supported by many more people than currently using it, then we
> need to come up with a menuing system that eliminates alot of the criptic
> stuff.  If i can launch a program in linux from a menu and then the program
> gives me option like Pine, then it would work well.  I am talking about all
> the system stuff that is so exacting and with all due respect to the
> programmers, not very intuitive or descritive.
>
> -- charlie.
> At 11:09 AM 5/13/02 -0400, you wrote:
> >Charlie:
> >
> >Well, there's absolutely nothing stopping someone from writing
> >such a menuing system!
> >
> >hint hint hint
> >
> >Getting people to use it instead of the command line? Well,
> >that's another story.
> >
> >Here's what I think will happen. Some peopl will chose it because
> >it seems to make life simple. Then they'll want to do something
> >the menus don't support. Then the author gets mail saying "why
> >doesn't your menu ..." Then were are you?
> >
> >Back at the command line?
> >
> >Hopefully. Because the alternative, a fully capable menuing
> >system, is far worse.
> >
> >Just goes to say there's no substitute for learning.
> >
> >On Mon, 13 May 2002, Charles Crawford wrote:
> >
> > > Jim,
> > >
> > >          There is access not far off.  I would like to see a menuing
> > system
> > > for Linix text mode that would reduce the criptic command line having to
> > > remember all those commands and switches.
> > >
> > > -- charlie Crawford.
> > > At 10:12 PM 05/12/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > > >Do you think we will ever have access to the gui?
> > > >
> > > >I find that I can access things faster in windows then in Linux text
> > > >mode.  I will admit that linux works much better then windows or the
> > winxp.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >_______________________________________________
> > > >Speakup mailing list
> > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >--
> >
> >                                 Janina Sajka, Director
> >                                 Technology Research and Development
> >                                 Governmental Relations Group
> >                                 American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> >Email: janina@afb.net           Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> >Chair, Accessibility SIG
> >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> >http://www.openebook.org
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: xwindows

[Jim Ruby]

There is it is just a bash or csh script and they are nice, but still slower then a actual gui.

Just my opinions.

On Mon, 13 May 2002 07:05:33 -0400, Charles Crawford wrote:

>Jim,
>
>         There is access not far off.  I would like to see a menuing system 
>for Linix text mode that would reduce the criptic command line having to 
>remember all those commands and switches.
>
>-- charlie Crawford.
>At 10:12 PM 05/12/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>>Do you think we will ever have access to the gui?
>>
>>I find that I can access things faster in windows then in Linux text 
>>mode.  I will admit that linux works much better then windows or the winxp.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Speakup mailing list
>>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: xwindows

[Janina Sajka]

On Mon, 13 May 2002, Jim Ruby wrote:

> There is it is just a bash or csh script and they are nice, but still slower then a actual gui.

Can you explain "slower?" Without a mouse in the act, how is a
text menu slower than a GUI?

Re: xwindows

['Georgina']

Hi

Don't know if this is what your looking for:

debian:~# apt-cache show pdmenu
Package: pdmenu
Priority: optional
Section: shells
Installed-Size: 236
Maintainer: Joey Hess <joeyh@debian.org>
Architecture: i386
Version: 1.2.69
Depends: libc6 (>= 2.2.3-1), libgpmg1 (>= 1.14-16), slang1 (>> 1.3.0-0)
Suggests: menu (>= 2.0.0-5)
Conflicts: menu (<< 2.0.0-5)
Filename: pool/main/p/pdmenu/pdmenu_1.2.69_i386.deb
Size: 50846
MD5sum: 34633056c210e8cc78d5495fa4ffd8dc
Description: Simple full screen menu program.
 A simple full screen menu program, intended to be comfortable
 login shell for inexperienced users.
 .
 Pdmenu interfaces with Debian's menu system, to provide
 automatically-generated lists of installed programs.
 
Gena



Blindness Advocacy and Self Help Online www.bashonline.org

>Jim,
>
>         There is access not far off.  I would like to see a menuing system 
>for Linix text mode that would reduce the criptic command line having to 
>remember all those commands and switches.
>
>-- charlie Crawford.
>At 10:12 PM 05/12/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>>Do you think we will ever have access to the gui?
>>
>>I find that I can access things faster in windows then in Linux text 
>>mode.  I will admit that linux works much better then windows or the winxp.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Speakup mailing list
>>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: xwindows

[Igor Gueths]

Hi. I'm going to assume that it only generates lists of installed Debian packages? Or it has a path variable to tell it where to search for binaries?  
----- Original Message ----- 
From: 'Georgina' <gena@gena-j.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 9:19 PM
Subject: Re: xwindows 


> Hi
> 
> Don't know if this is what your looking for:
> 
> debian:~# apt-cache show pdmenu
> Package: pdmenu
> Priority: optional
> Section: shells
> Installed-Size: 236
> Maintainer: Joey Hess <joeyh@debian.org>
> Architecture: i386
> Version: 1.2.69
> Depends: libc6 (>= 2.2.3-1), libgpmg1 (>= 1.14-16), slang1 (>> 1.3.0-0)
> Suggests: menu (>= 2.0.0-5)
> Conflicts: menu (<< 2.0.0-5)
> Filename: pool/main/p/pdmenu/pdmenu_1.2.69_i386.deb
> Size: 50846
> MD5sum: 34633056c210e8cc78d5495fa4ffd8dc
> Description: Simple full screen menu program.
>  A simple full screen menu program, intended to be comfortable
>  login shell for inexperienced users.
>  .
>  Pdmenu interfaces with Debian's menu system, to provide
>  automatically-generated lists of installed programs.
>  
> Gena
> 
> 
> 
> Blindness Advocacy and Self Help Online www.bashonline.org
> 
> >Jim,
> >
> >         There is access not far off.  I would like to see a menuing system 
> >for Linix text mode that would reduce the criptic command line having to 
> >remember all those commands and switches.
> >
> >-- charlie Crawford.
> >At 10:12 PM 05/12/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> >>Do you think we will ever have access to the gui?
> >>
> >>I find that I can access things faster in windows then in Linux text 
> >>mode.  I will admit that linux works much better then windows or the winxp.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Speakup mailing list
> >>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: xwindows

['Georgina']

Hi

Why assume, the package maintainer's address is there and I'm sure you
could find a web page for the package.  Use your distribution's
procedure for searching for packages.


Gena



Blindness Advocacy and Self Help Online www.bashonline.org

>Hi. I'm going to assume that it only generates lists of installed Debian =
>packages? Or it has a path variable to tell it where to search for =
>binaries? =20
>----- Original Message -----=20
>From: 'Georgina' <gena@gena-j.net>
>To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 9:19 PM
>Subject: Re: xwindows=20
>
>
>> Hi
>>=20
>> Don't know if this is what your looking for:
>>=20
>> debian:~# apt-cache show pdmenu
>> Package: pdmenu
>> Priority: optional
>> Section: shells
>> Installed-Size: 236
>> Maintainer: Joey Hess <joeyh@debian.org>
>> Architecture: i386
>> Version: 1.2.69
>> Depends: libc6 (>=3D 2.2.3-1), libgpmg1 (>=3D 1.14-16), slang1 (>> =
>1.3.0-0)
>> Suggests: menu (>=3D 2.0.0-5)
>> Conflicts: menu (<< 2.0.0-5)
>> Filename: pool/main/p/pdmenu/pdmenu_1.2.69_i386.deb
>> Size: 50846
>> MD5sum: 34633056c210e8cc78d5495fa4ffd8dc
>> Description: Simple full screen menu program.
>>  A simple full screen menu program, intended to be comfortable
>>  login shell for inexperienced users.
>>  .
>>  Pdmenu interfaces with Debian's menu system, to provide
>>  automatically-generated lists of installed programs.
>> =20
>> Gena
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Blindness Advocacy and Self Help Online www.bashonline.org
>>=20
>> >Jim,
>> >
>> >         There is access not far off.  I would like to see a menuing =
>system=20
>> >for Linix text mode that would reduce the criptic command line having =
>to=20
>> >remember all those commands and switches.
>> >
>> >-- charlie Crawford.
>> >At 10:12 PM 05/12/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>> >>Do you think we will ever have access to the gui?
>> >>
>> >>I find that I can access things faster in windows then in Linux text =
>
>> >>mode.  I will admit that linux works much better then windows or the =
>winxp.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>_______________________________________________
>> >>Speakup mailing list
>> >>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> >>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> >
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Speakup mailing list
>> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>=20
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: xwindows

[Rich Caloggero]

I agree with this. It takes far less typing and its generally just quicker
to get around and accomplish many typical tasks with a GUI or object-based
interface. I've got repetative strain injury from typing too much and
playing guitar, so anything which saves typing is really necisary for me.
Linux is a much better system overall, so to have access to a GUI or
object-based interface under Linux is going to be fantastique!! Look for
more about Gnome and Gnome accessibility as the summer progresses. You can
bet that I'll be one of the first to jump on this bandwaggon!!

                    Rich Caloggero
                    MIT Adaptive Tech. for Info. and Computing


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Ruby" <jruby@charter.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2002 11:12 PM
Subject: xwindows


> Do you think we will ever have access to the gui?
>
> I find that I can access things faster in windows then in Linux text mode.
I will admit that linux works much better then windows or the winxp.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: xwindows

[Jim Ruby]

If this takes off, I will jump away from windows too because I just like the gui or ojb interface as it is just a lot less work to get around and is faster.

On Mon, 13 May 2002 13:32:06 -0400, Rich Caloggero wrote:

>I agree with this. It takes far less typing and its generally just quicker
>to get around and accomplish many typical tasks with a GUI or object-based
>interface. I've got repetative strain injury from typing too much and
>playing guitar, so anything which saves typing is really necisary for me.
>Linux is a much better system overall, so to have access to a GUI or
>object-based interface under Linux is going to be fantastique!! Look for
>more about Gnome and Gnome accessibility as the summer progresses. You can
>bet that I'll be one of the first to jump on this bandwaggon!!
>
>                    Rich Caloggero
>                    MIT Adaptive Tech. for Info. and Computing
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Jim Ruby" <jruby@charter.net>
>To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2002 11:12 PM
>Subject: xwindows
>
>
>> Do you think we will ever have access to the gui?
>>
>> I find that I can access things faster in windows then in Linux text mode.
>I will admit that linux works much better then windows or the winxp.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: xwindows

[Janina Sajka]

Don't know what you mean by "takes off," but GUI access will
definitely be available for Linux and some other Unix
environments later this year. This is driven by several factors,
not the least of those being Section 508.

So, more options for Linux/Unix users, and those who would be.

On Mon, 13 May 2002, Jim Ruby wrote:

> If this takes off, I will jump away from windows too because I just like the gui or ojb interface as it is just a lot less work to get around and is faster.
> 
> On Mon, 13 May 2002 13:32:06 -0400, Rich Caloggero wrote:
> 
> >I agree with this. It takes far less typing and its generally just quicker
> >to get around and accomplish many typical tasks with a GUI or object-based
> >interface. I've got repetative strain injury from typing too much and
> >playing guitar, so anything which saves typing is really necisary for me.
> >Linux is a much better system overall, so to have access to a GUI or
> >object-based interface under Linux is going to be fantastique!! Look for
> >more about Gnome and Gnome accessibility as the summer progresses. You can
> >bet that I'll be one of the first to jump on this bandwaggon!!
> >
> >                    Rich Caloggero
> >                    MIT Adaptive Tech. for Info. and Computing
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Jim Ruby" <jruby@charter.net>
> >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> >Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2002 11:12 PM
> >Subject: xwindows
> >
> >
> >> Do you think we will ever have access to the gui?
> >>
> >> I find that I can access things faster in windows then in Linux text mode.
> >I will admit that linux works much better then windows or the winxp.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: xwindows

[Scott Howell]

I think the one reason I'd like to have access to the X environment is
this.

1. I'd be able to teach sighted folks how to use it and its something
they are familiar with. Make it a good learning experience and it'll be
one more reason for them to choose Linux. Afterall, there is a tun of
apps and more coming that folks can use to accomplish daily tasks they
now perform under windows.

2. Would give more access to different browsers and this despite
everything I've not heard, would aid it accessing sites that use frames,
java scripting etc. Some who go unmentioned hate these things, but ay
lets be realistic cause fangled web pages ain't going away in the near
future.

3. Access to applications which are not available for the text console
thus offering greater flexibility in what is available.

whoops, guess that was 3 reasons.

Scott

Re: xwindows

['Georgina']

Hi

Sorry,  but I mus disagree.  You only have to listen to reviews on Main
Menu and here the number of keystrokes required to achieve a simple
task.  Its a question of what you know and what you believe you know to
be fact.

If you count the number of keystrokes you actually use in MS Windows
you'd be suprised.  When you become comfortable with a screen reader and
the operating system you believe it to be easy.  Its a matter of
perception.

I read new mail with fewer keystrokes with nmh than I did with Outlook.
My fingers stay on the typewriter keys and I don't have to use nearly
impossible key combinations.

In Outlook I pressed escape, curser down, and enter.  In nmh I use
curser down and enter.  Big deal, I've saved one keypress per message
but as I receive over a hundred a day, its a significant amount.

The arguement that blind people need a graphical user interface is
totally illogical.  The only reasoning is to normalise us all.

Gena



Blindness Advocacy and Self Help Online www.bashonline.org

>I agree with this. It takes far less typing and its generally just quicker
>to get around and accomplish many typical tasks with a GUI or object-based
>interface. I've got repetative strain injury from typing too much and
>playing guitar, so anything which saves typing is really necisary for me.
>Linux is a much better system overall, so to have access to a GUI or
>object-based interface under Linux is going to be fantastique!! Look for
>more about Gnome and Gnome accessibility as the summer progresses. You can
>bet that I'll be one of the first to jump on this bandwaggon!!
>
>                    Rich Caloggero
>                    MIT Adaptive Tech. for Info. and Computing
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Jim Ruby" <jruby@charter.net>
>To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2002 11:12 PM
>Subject: xwindows
>
>
>> Do you think we will ever have access to the gui?
>>
>> I find that I can access things faster in windows then in Linux text mode.
>I will admit that linux works much better then windows or the winxp.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: xwindows

[David Poehlman]

Gena,  Thanks for this.  I agree totally.

----- Original Message -----
From: "'Georgina'" <gena@gena-j.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 2:10 PM
Subject: Re: xwindows


Hi

Sorry,  but I mus disagree.  You only have to listen to reviews on Main
Menu and here the number of keystrokes required to achieve a simple
task.  Its a question of what you know and what you believe you know to
be fact.

If you count the number of keystrokes you actually use in MS Windows
you'd be suprised.  When you become comfortable with a screen reader and
the operating system you believe it to be easy.  Its a matter of
perception.

I read new mail with fewer keystrokes with nmh than I did with Outlook.
My fingers stay on the typewriter keys and I don't have to use nearly
impossible key combinations.

In Outlook I pressed escape, curser down, and enter.  In nmh I use
curser down and enter.  Big deal, I've saved one keypress per message
but as I receive over a hundred a day, its a significant amount.

The arguement that blind people need a graphical user interface is
totally illogical.  The only reasoning is to normalise us all.

Gena



Blindness Advocacy and Self Help Online www.bashonline.org

>I agree with this. It takes far less typing and its generally just
quicker
>to get around and accomplish many typical tasks with a GUI or
object-based
>interface. I've got repetative strain injury from typing too much and
>playing guitar, so anything which saves typing is really necisary for
me.
>Linux is a much better system overall, so to have access to a GUI or
>object-based interface under Linux is going to be fantastique!! Look
for
>more about Gnome and Gnome accessibility as the summer progresses. You
can
>bet that I'll be one of the first to jump on this bandwaggon!!
>
>                    Rich Caloggero
>                    MIT Adaptive Tech. for Info. and Computing
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Jim Ruby" <jruby@charter.net>
>To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2002 11:12 PM
>Subject: xwindows
>
>
>> Do you think we will ever have access to the gui?
>>
>> I find that I can access things faster in windows then in Linux text
mode.
>I will admit that linux works much better then windows or the winxp.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: xwindows

[Cheryl Homiak]

Also, you have to remember that just because we have access to a gui doesn't
mean it's going to be easy. How many times have i heard blind windowws users
complain that they did something but can't undo it or duplicate it because
they're not sure how they did it in the first place. Having a screen reader that
really allows you to sort out where you are and what you are changing or are
about to change would be vital.
My biggest concern for linux right now isn't gui per se; my biggest concern is
Internet accessibility. My main reason for being interested in Xwindows at all
is the hope of being able eventually to use a browser that will allow me to
access Internet sites that I cannot now access. I don't know if that is a
realistic hope, but that is frankly my main concern.

Re: xwindows

[jwantz]

Hi,
Well, there isn't anything to prevent someone re-writing lynx in such a 
way that it would function the same as internet explorer in WINDOWS.  
Except that it would be a lot of work of course.  I agree, Internet 
Exploder will access more things than lynx.  We can only hope that 
Netscrape will work better under Gnome than it does under WINDOWS.

     Jim Wantz WB0TFK
On Tue, 
14 May 2002, Cheryl Homiak wrote:

> Also, you have to remember that just because we have access to a gui doesn't
> mean it's going to be easy. How many times have i heard blind windowws users
> complain that they did something but can't undo it or duplicate it because
> they're not sure how they did it in the first place. Having a screen reader that
> really allows you to sort out where you are and what you are changing or are
> about to change would be vital.
> My biggest concern for linux right now isn't gui per se; my biggest concern is
> Internet accessibility. My main reason for being interested in Xwindows at all
> is the hope of being able eventually to use a browser that will allow me to
> access Internet sites that I cannot now access. I don't know if that is a
> realistic hope, but that is frankly my main concern.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: xwindows

[Janina Sajka]

Heav en forefiend. 

I like lynx just as it is. I would hate to think it would ever
behave like Internet Explorer., That would be brain dead.

Now, one can wish for javascript support without emmulating IE.
Those two are not the same thing.

On Wed, 15 May 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:

> Hi,
> Well, there isn't anything to prevent someone re-writing lynx in such a 
> way that it would function the same as internet explorer in WINDOWS.  
> Except that it would be a lot of work of course.  I agree, Internet 
> Exploder will access more things than lynx.  We can only hope that 
> Netscrape will work better under Gnome than it does under WINDOWS.
> 
>      Jim Wantz WB0TFK
> On Tue, 
> 14 May 2002, Cheryl Homiak wrote:
> 
> > Also, you have to remember that just because we have access to a gui doesn't
> > mean it's going to be easy. How many times have i heard blind windowws users
> > complain that they did something but can't undo it or duplicate it because
> > they're not sure how they did it in the first place. Having a screen reader that
> > really allows you to sort out where you are and what you are changing or are
> > about to change would be vital.
> > My biggest concern for linux right now isn't gui per se; my biggest concern is
> > Internet accessibility. My main reason for being interested in Xwindows at all
> > is the hope of being able eventually to use a browser that will allow me to
> > access Internet sites that I cannot now access. I don't know if that is a
> > realistic hope, but that is frankly my main concern.
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: xwindows

[David Poehlman]

one could wish for a lynx like ie. if ie were like lynx we could have
the best of both worlds and drop the security nonsense.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 2:45 PM
Subject: Re: xwindows



Heav en forefiend.

I like lynx just as it is. I would hate to think it would ever
behave like Internet Explorer., That would be brain dead.

Now, one can wish for javascript support without emmulating IE.
Those two are not the same thing.

On Wed, 15 May 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:

> Hi,
> Well, there isn't anything to prevent someone re-writing lynx in such
a
> way that it would function the same as internet explorer in WINDOWS.
> Except that it would be a lot of work of course.  I agree, Internet
> Exploder will access more things than lynx.  We can only hope that
> Netscrape will work better under Gnome than it does under WINDOWS.
>
>      Jim Wantz WB0TFK
> On Tue,
> 14 May 2002, Cheryl Homiak wrote:
>
> > Also, you have to remember that just because we have access to a gui
doesn't
> > mean it's going to be easy. How many times have i heard blind
windowws users
> > complain that they did something but can't undo it or duplicate it
because
> > they're not sure how they did it in the first place. Having a screen
reader that
> > really allows you to sort out where you are and what you are
changing or are
> > about to change would be vital.
> > My biggest concern for linux right now isn't gui per se; my biggest
concern is
> > Internet accessibility. My main reason for being interested in
Xwindows at all
> > is the hope of being able eventually to use a browser that will
allow me to
> > access Internet sites that I cannot now access. I don't know if that
is a
> > realistic hope, but that is frankly my main concern.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

--

Janina Sajka, Director
Technology Research and Development
Governmental Relations Group
American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: xwindows

[jwantz]

Hi Janina,
Well, Java support would be nice and it really should handle frames and 
tables.  I do like the ability in Internet Exploder to be able to tab 
and shift-tab through links.  At home though, the only thing I normally 
use WINDOWS for is Kurzweil 1000.  I'd guess that I spend 98% of my time 
on Linux.

     Jim Wantz WB0TFK
On Thu, 16 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:

> 
> Heav en forefiend. 
> 
> I like lynx just as it is. I would hate to think it would ever
> behave like Internet Explorer., That would be brain dead.
> 
> Now, one can wish for javascript support without emmulating IE.
> Those two are not the same thing.
> 
> On Wed, 15 May 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
> 
> > Hi,
> > Well, there isn't anything to prevent someone re-writing lynx in such a 
> > way that it would function the same as internet explorer in WINDOWS.  
> > Except that it would be a lot of work of course.  I agree, Internet 
> > Exploder will access more things than lynx.  We can only hope that 
> > Netscrape will work better under Gnome than it does under WINDOWS.
> > 
> >      Jim Wantz WB0TFK
> > On Tue, 
> > 14 May 2002, Cheryl Homiak wrote:
> > 
> > > Also, you have to remember that just because we have access to a gui doesn't
> > > mean it's going to be easy. How many times have i heard blind windowws users
> > > complain that they did something but can't undo it or duplicate it because
> > > they're not sure how they did it in the first place. Having a screen reader that
> > > really allows you to sort out where you are and what you are changing or are
> > > about to change would be vital.
> > > My biggest concern for linux right now isn't gui per se; my biggest concern is
> > > Internet accessibility. My main reason for being interested in Xwindows at all
> > > is the hope of being able eventually to use a browser that will allow me to
> > > access Internet sites that I cannot now access. I don't know if that is a
> > > realistic hope, but that is frankly my main concern.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> 

Re: xwindows

[Janina Sajka]

Hi, Jim:

I don't mind the way Lynx handles frames. In fact, I rather
prefer it on sites I visit often. I simply bookmark the
particular frame that I'm interested in. Saves me from slogging
through nav bars, mostly.

And, while tab and shift-tab don't take you from link to link in
lynx, up and down arrows do exactly that.

Tables that linearize properly seem to be OK from my view in
lynx.

And, of course, Lynx supports streaming very well.

So, what's missing? java and Javascript is pretty much it, imho.

On the other hand, IE can take an eternity to load a page. Very
annoying. Give me lynx for speed, please.

On Fri, 17 May 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:

> Hi Janina,
> Well, Java support would be nice and it really should handle frames and 
> tables.  I do like the ability in Internet Exploder to be able to tab 
> and shift-tab through links.  At home though, the only thing I normally 
> use WINDOWS for is Kurzweil 1000.  I'd guess that I spend 98% of my time 
> on Linux.
> 
>      Jim Wantz WB0TFK
> On Thu, 16 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Heav en forefiend. 
> > 
> > I like lynx just as it is. I would hate to think it would ever
> > behave like Internet Explorer., That would be brain dead.
> > 
> > Now, one can wish for javascript support without emmulating IE.
> > Those two are not the same thing.
> > 
> > On Wed, 15 May 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
> > 
> > > Hi,
> > > Well, there isn't anything to prevent someone re-writing lynx in such a 
> > > way that it would function the same as internet explorer in WINDOWS.  
> > > Except that it would be a lot of work of course.  I agree, Internet 
> > > Exploder will access more things than lynx.  We can only hope that 
> > > Netscrape will work better under Gnome than it does under WINDOWS.
> > > 
> > >      Jim Wantz WB0TFK
> > > On Tue, 
> > > 14 May 2002, Cheryl Homiak wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Also, you have to remember that just because we have access to a gui doesn't
> > > > mean it's going to be easy. How many times have i heard blind windowws users
> > > > complain that they did something but can't undo it or duplicate it because
> > > > they're not sure how they did it in the first place. Having a screen reader that
> > > > really allows you to sort out where you are and what you are changing or are
> > > > about to change would be vital.
> > > > My biggest concern for linux right now isn't gui per se; my biggest concern is
> > > > Internet accessibility. My main reason for being interested in Xwindows at all
> > > > is the hope of being able eventually to use a browser that will allow me to
> > > > access Internet sites that I cannot now access. I don't know if that is a
> > > > realistic hope, but that is frankly my main concern.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: xwindows

[Toby Fisher]

On Fri, 17 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:

> I don't mind the way Lynx handles frames. In fact, I rather
> prefer it on sites I visit often. I simply bookmark the
> particular frame that I'm interested in. Saves me from slogging
> through nav bars, mostly.

Oh yes, and those frames inside frames.   Do you know, once I went to a
page with IE, and JFW announced the following:
"Page has 20 frames, and 13 links"
I mean, what on earth?!?  It turns out that most of the frames, empty
frames, were used for layout, because somebody was too bone idle to use
tables etc.
There were even empty frames *inside* empty frames, what's all that about?

<snip>

> So, what's missing? java and Javascript is pretty much it, imho.

There must be plans to look at javascript inclusion, as there's an option
in configure for it, even if it doesn't do anything at present.

Cheers.

-- 
Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808
   Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
   See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Re: xwindows

[jwantz]

Hi Janina,
Hmmm, I never thought about bookmarking to get around frames--that's a 
rather cool idea.  In some cases auto-redirects do present lynx with 
problems--though normally you can follow the link.  Recently I have been 
running into streams that won't play, they are normally called something 
.clip.  Any ideas what they might be?I'm fairly sure I could find 
something that would play them if I only knew what they were.

     Jim
On Fri, 17 
May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:

> Hi, Jim:
> 
> I don't mind the way Lynx handles frames. In fact, I rather
> prefer it on sites I visit often. I simply bookmark the
> particular frame that I'm interested in. Saves me from slogging
> through nav bars, mostly.
> 
> And, while tab and shift-tab don't take you from link to link in
> lynx, up and down arrows do exactly that.
> 
> Tables that linearize properly seem to be OK from my view in
> lynx.
> 
> And, of course, Lynx supports streaming very well.
> 
> So, what's missing? java and Javascript is pretty much it, imho.
> 
> On the other hand, IE can take an eternity to load a page. Very
> annoying. Give me lynx for speed, please.
> 
> On Fri, 17 May 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
> 
> > Hi Janina,
> > Well, Java support would be nice and it really should handle frames and 
> > tables.  I do like the ability in Internet Exploder to be able to tab 
> > and shift-tab through links.  At home though, the only thing I normally 
> > use WINDOWS for is Kurzweil 1000.  I'd guess that I spend 98% of my time 
> > on Linux.
> > 
> >      Jim Wantz WB0TFK
> > On Thu, 16 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > 
> > > 
> > > Heav en forefiend. 
> > > 
> > > I like lynx just as it is. I would hate to think it would ever
> > > behave like Internet Explorer., That would be brain dead.
> > > 
> > > Now, one can wish for javascript support without emmulating IE.
> > > Those two are not the same thing.
> > > 
> > > On Wed, 15 May 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Hi,
> > > > Well, there isn't anything to prevent someone re-writing lynx in such a 
> > > > way that it would function the same as internet explorer in WINDOWS.  
> > > > Except that it would be a lot of work of course.  I agree, Internet 
> > > > Exploder will access more things than lynx.  We can only hope that 
> > > > Netscrape will work better under Gnome than it does under WINDOWS.
> > > > 
> > > >      Jim Wantz WB0TFK
> > > > On Tue, 
> > > > 14 May 2002, Cheryl Homiak wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > Also, you have to remember that just because we have access to a gui doesn't
> > > > > mean it's going to be easy. How many times have i heard blind windowws users
> > > > > complain that they did something but can't undo it or duplicate it because
> > > > > they're not sure how they did it in the first place. Having a screen reader that
> > > > > really allows you to sort out where you are and what you are changing or are
> > > > > about to change would be vital.
> > > > > My biggest concern for linux right now isn't gui per se; my biggest concern is
> > > > > Internet accessibility. My main reason for being interested in Xwindows at all
> > > > > is the hope of being able eventually to use a browser that will allow me to
> > > > > access Internet sites that I cannot now access. I don't know if that is a
> > > > > realistic hope, but that is frankly my main concern.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> 

Re: xwindows

[Janina Sajka]

Hmmm, haven't heard of .clip. No doubt it somebody's idea of
market domination.

Have you heard of a file type with the extension .mpl. Speakeasy
has started using it, and it has made those pages break in lynx.
The W3C validator has nasty things to say about it, too. What I'd
like to know is what software company creates .mpl.

On Fri, 17 May 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:

> Hi Janina,
> Hmmm, I never thought about bookmarking to get around frames--that's a 
> rather cool idea.  In some cases auto-redirects do present lynx with 
> problems--though normally you can follow the link.  Recently I have been 
> running into streams that won't play, they are normally called something 
> .clip.  Any ideas what they might be?I'm fairly sure I could find 
> something that would play them if I only knew what they were.
> 
>      Jim
> On Fri, 17 
> May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
> 
> > Hi, Jim:
> > 
> > I don't mind the way Lynx handles frames. In fact, I rather
> > prefer it on sites I visit often. I simply bookmark the
> > particular frame that I'm interested in. Saves me from slogging
> > through nav bars, mostly.
> > 
> > And, while tab and shift-tab don't take you from link to link in
> > lynx, up and down arrows do exactly that.
> > 
> > Tables that linearize properly seem to be OK from my view in
> > lynx.
> > 
> > And, of course, Lynx supports streaming very well.
> > 
> > So, what's missing? java and Javascript is pretty much it, imho.
> > 
> > On the other hand, IE can take an eternity to load a page. Very
> > annoying. Give me lynx for speed, please.
> > 
> > On Fri, 17 May 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
> > 
> > > Hi Janina,
> > > Well, Java support would be nice and it really should handle frames and 
> > > tables.  I do like the ability in Internet Exploder to be able to tab 
> > > and shift-tab through links.  At home though, the only thing I normally 
> > > use WINDOWS for is Kurzweil 1000.  I'd guess that I spend 98% of my time 
> > > on Linux.
> > > 
> > >      Jim Wantz WB0TFK
> > > On Thu, 16 May 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Heav en forefiend. 
> > > > 
> > > > I like lynx just as it is. I would hate to think it would ever
> > > > behave like Internet Explorer., That would be brain dead.
> > > > 
> > > > Now, one can wish for javascript support without emmulating IE.
> > > > Those two are not the same thing.
> > > > 
> > > > On Wed, 15 May 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > > Well, there isn't anything to prevent someone re-writing lynx in such a 
> > > > > way that it would function the same as internet explorer in WINDOWS.  
> > > > > Except that it would be a lot of work of course.  I agree, Internet 
> > > > > Exploder will access more things than lynx.  We can only hope that 
> > > > > Netscrape will work better under Gnome than it does under WINDOWS.
> > > > > 
> > > > >      Jim Wantz WB0TFK
> > > > > On Tue, 
> > > > > 14 May 2002, Cheryl Homiak wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > Also, you have to remember that just because we have access to a gui doesn't
> > > > > > mean it's going to be easy. How many times have i heard blind windowws users
> > > > > > complain that they did something but can't undo it or duplicate it because
> > > > > > they're not sure how they did it in the first place. Having a screen reader that
> > > > > > really allows you to sort out where you are and what you are changing or are
> > > > > > about to change would be vital.
> > > > > > My biggest concern for linux right now isn't gui per se; my biggest concern is
> > > > > > Internet accessibility. My main reason for being interested in Xwindows at all
> > > > > > is the hope of being able eventually to use a browser that will allow me to
> > > > > > access Internet sites that I cannot now access. I don't know if that is a
> > > > > > realistic hope, but that is frankly my main concern.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: xwindows

[Dave Hunt <]

Hello!

You want speed in a browser?  Have a look at edbrowse.  Another nice
edbrowse feature?  only the output you want.  Unfortunately, it
doesn't work with mailcap for streeming and the like.  Also, it can be
a little hard to learn to use (Perl's regular expression syntax can
help there).  Also, there's w3.

-Dave

Re: xwindows

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

I must agree with Gena.  I would like to see us get access to Gnome
and to Xwindows,.  It will help us to access some of those things
which the majority seems to think are so important.  

On the other hand, as far as I understand this and how it works.  The
command-line interface will never go away in Linux.  You can still do
most things with the commands.  Graphics is good for some things, but
it can not hold a candle to a robust command-line interface at all.
It will never be able to do that.  Why?  Because navigating in Windows
is at best an exercise in memorization of keystrokes which may or may
not get you what you want, and at worst a plodding torturous treck
through menu after menu.  

If you are a Windows expert, then Windows is easy for a blind person.
It does require a great deal of visualization and reliance upon the
blind user's conprehension of visual relationships and so on.  When
you press a key in Windows, there's usually no way to go back to
verify that the command you gave was correct.  You just have to trust
that your memory isn't faulty or the menus are correct.  If I type a
command in Linux, usually, there's a way I can check the syntax of
that command to be damned sure I got what I wanted.  When a sighted
person uses a mouse, there is immediate visual feedback.  The color of
the link pressed changes, the color of the text in the window changes,
something happens visually!  Usually the only confirmation you get is
if the program does what you wanted, and sometimes you have to check
that too.  No, too slow, too combersome too damned time consuming. 

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: How to get an accessible telephone

[Scott Howell]

Ay, maybe this would apply to that damned cell phone I have. The only
good part is that they have shortcut keys for most menu items, they do
offer the manual in accessible formats including braille, but I can't
use the address book or not as far as I can tell. So, they're pretty
good, but you can bet I'll be filing something cause the local Verizon
folk haven't any clue how to get me a braille phone bill and my buddy in
New Jersey has been getting braille utility and phone bills.
Also, my wife wnated this really neat all-in-one phone, but its menus
are as accessible as windows is stable.

Scott

Re: How to get an accessible telephone

[Janina Sajka]

Please do all of this. And please pass this information on to
anyone you know.

Can I say this any more clearly? We have the law on our side, but
the whole thing will go down the drain if people don't file those
complaints.

OK, for all the non U.S. people, sorry about taking up your
bandwidth. But, this is important.

On Tue, 7 May 2002, Scott Howell wrote:

> Ay, maybe this would apply to that damned cell phone I have. The only
> good part is that they have shortcut keys for most menu items, they do
> offer the manual in accessible formats including braille, but I can't
> use the address book or not as far as I can tell. So, they're pretty
> good, but you can bet I'll be filing something cause the local Verizon
> folk haven't any clue how to get me a braille phone bill and my buddy in
> New Jersey has been getting braille utility and phone bills.
> Also, my wife wnated this really neat all-in-one phone, but its menus
> are as accessible as windows is stable.
> 
> Scott
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: How to get an accessible telephone

[Charles Hallenbeck]

Hi Buddy,

Verizon provides me with braille phone bills okay. They started
doing that when they were NYNEX in this area, then Bell Atlantic,
and now Verizon.

Chuck

On Tue, 7 May 2002, Scott Howell wrote:

> Ay, maybe this would apply to that damned cell phone I have. The only
> good part is that they have shortcut keys for most menu items, they do
> offer the manual in accessible formats including braille, but I can't
> use the address book or not as far as I can tell. So, they're pretty
> good, but you can bet I'll be filing something cause the local Verizon
> folk haven't any clue how to get me a braille phone bill and my buddy in
> New Jersey has been getting braille utility and phone bills.
> Also, my wife wnated this really neat all-in-one phone, but its menus
> are as accessible as windows is stable.
>
> Scott
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

-- 
Visit me at http://www.valstar.net/~hallenbeck
The Moon is Waning Crescent (18% of Full)