still more on bug

still more on bug

[John Heim]

Well, I got it working. All I did was comment out the return in serialio.c 
on line 46. So it still generates a warning from __release_region and 
another from synth_request_region but it ignores the error returned and just 
goes on. This appears to work.

# diff linux-2.6.37/drivers/staging/speakup/serialio.c 
linux-3.2.2/drivers/staging/speakup/serialio.c
46c46
<                       return NULL;
---
>                       /* return NULL; */

Re: still more on bug

[Kitty Litter]

Thats exactly what you were supposed to do, probably has implications that I 
don't realize but it beats not being able to use serial synth.

Re: still more on bug

[John Heim]

Is there any reason why a fix hasn't been implemented? Not to criticize the 
speakup developers -- they've done a great job. But I'd think that since the 
bug has been around for a while it would be fixed by now. If its a matter of 
finding time to do it, I'm willing to do what I can.

I suspect that the code that checks if the serial port needs to be freed is 
wrong. The code prints a message saying speakup is trying to "steal" the 
serial ports. And then it checks if ttyS0 is free and if not, calls 
__release_region, and then it checks again if the port is free. But since 
the check fails no matter what and since it doesn't seem to matter that it 
fails, most likely, the check itself is bogus.

In other words, this is probably a speakup bug rather than a kernel bug.




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kitty Litter" <n8kl@insightbb.com>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: still more on bug


> Thats exactly what you were supposed to do, probably has implications that 
> I don't realize but it beats not being able to use serial synth.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> 

Re: still more on bug

[Kitty Litter]

Some people are of the opinion that kernel developers will help fix the 
problem but I think this is pure fantasy. From what little I know the real 
answer would be to write serial drivers in userspace. This might make it 
possible to use PCI serial cards. Serial synths are a dying breed anyway. 
Get used to espeak. I don't have anywhere near the knowledge to do this and 
too old to learn all I would need to know. So if you are capable of fixing 
speakup we will all be eternally greatful!

Re: still more on bug

[John Heim]

Well, admittedly, we have a problem down the road regarding serial hardware 
synths. But it will be years before serial ports go away entirely. Every 
Dell server class machine still comes with at least one serial port. I don't 
know about other server manufacturers but I would guess they're the same. In 
fact, even dell small footprint desktops still have serial ports. So I think 
it will be some time before server class machines don't come with serial 
ports. And even after serial ports become obsolete, speakup won't be 
obsolete, it will just have to start supporting USB synths.

Speakup with software speech isn't *that* important.  You can probably use 
orca just about anywhere you use speakup with software speech. Yes, I know 
there are a few exceptions like on a grml CD. But you could use vinux or 
ubuntu instead of grml. The real value of speakup is that it works in kernel 
space.

I am not sure I'm capable of supporting speakup. Two weeks ago, I didn't 
even know how to display debugging messages.  But I'm not willing to just 
throw up my hands and say that its hopeless.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kitty Litter" <n8kl@insightbb.com>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 5:29 PM
Subject: Re: still more on bug


> Some people are of the opinion that kernel developers will help fix the 
> problem but I think this is pure fantasy. From what little I know the real 
> answer would be to write serial drivers in userspace. This might make it 
> possible to use PCI serial cards. Serial synths are a dying breed anyway. 
> Get used to espeak. I don't have anywhere near the knowledge to do this 
> and too old to learn all I would need to know. So if you are capable of 
> fixing speakup we will all be eternally greatful!
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> 

Re: still more on bug

[Deedra Waters]

John Heim wrote
| Well, admittedly, we have a problem down the road regarding serial
| hardware synths. But it will be years before serial ports go away
| entirely. Every Dell server class machine still comes with at least
| one serial port. I don't know about other server manufacturers but I
| would guess they're the same. In fact, even dell small footprint
| desktops still have serial ports. So I think it will be some time
| before server class machines don't come with serial ports. And even
| after serial ports become obsolete, speakup won't be obsolete, it
| will just have to start supporting USB synths.

You say just like it's easy to fix speakup to do what you want it to do. It's not that easy in fat to fix the code, hell i'd fix it if i could my husband would fix it if he could probably, but it's not that easy.

I've got a couple serial synths laying around but the fact is that i've not had a computer with a serial port since 2007 so yep, guess they're out of date. Last time i tried ordering a computer i couldn't get del or hp to add them even though i wanted them.

| 
| Speakup with software speech isn't *that* important.  You can
| probably use orca just about anywhere you use speakup with software
| speech. Yes, I know there are a few exceptions like on a grml CD.
| But you could use vinux or ubuntu instead of grml. The real value of
| speakup is that it works in kernel space.

The kernel folks have kind of made the whole kernel space obsolete. in terms of speakup. it doesn't start talking till late in the boot process even when i did have serial synths useable it didn't start till late in the boot process.

speakup with software speech really is the way to go these days. orca for all intents and purposes isn't really useable not for constant use. I give gnome credit they've created a semi-useable environment for blind folks, but here's the thing.

I used gnome for 4 months. on a good day i'd have to restart orca once or twice an hour on a bad day......5 times in a 1 minute period. That doesn't sound like you could take it into a work environment and use it to do your job. Least speakup could technically be used on the job. When i worked for the OSL i used it with servers. Could i do it with today's speakup? Maybe. But in a server environment maybe not. Serial synths or usb synths would be a useful thing to have in speakup this is true. But, unless there's someone who can write some nice pretty kernel code and fix the current bugs, i'm not sure i see it happening.

Really, it'd be better to put speakup in user space and attack the serial/usb issue from that point. Yeah it's nice to have it in the kernel, but really there's no point to it these days unless you fix "all of the current bugs" and i suspect there's several of them that need fixing.


| 
| I am not sure I'm capable of supporting speakup. Two weeks ago, I
| didn't even know how to display debugging messages.  But I'm not
| willing to just throw up my hands and say that its hopeless.
| 
| ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kitty Litter"
| <n8kl@insightbb.com>
| To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
| Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 5:29 PM
| Subject: Re: still more on bug
| 
| 
| >Some people are of the opinion that kernel developers will help
| >fix the problem but I think this is pure fantasy. From what little
| >I know the real answer would be to write serial drivers in
| >userspace. This might make it possible to use PCI serial cards.
| >Serial synths are a dying breed anyway. Get used to espeak. I
| >don't have anywhere near the knowledge to do this and too old to
| >learn all I would need to know. So if you are capable of fixing
| >speakup we will all be eternally greatful!
| >
| >_______________________________________________
| >Speakup mailing list
| >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
| >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
| >
| >
| 
| _______________________________________________
| Speakup mailing list
| Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
| http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
---end quoted text---

Re: still more on bug

[John Heim]

<speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: still more on bug


> John Heim wrote
> | Well, admittedly, we have a problem down the road regarding serial
> | hardware synths. But it will be years before serial ports go away
> | entirely. Every Dell server class machine still comes with at least
> | one serial port. I don't know about other server manufacturers but I
> | would guess they're the same. In fact, even dell small footprint
> | desktops still have serial ports. So I think it will be some time
> | before server class machines don't come with serial ports. And even
> | after serial ports become obsolete, speakup won't be obsolete, it
> | will just have to start supporting USB synths.
>
> You say just like it's easy to fix speakup to do what you want it to do. 
> It's not that easy in fat to fix the code, hell i'd fix it if i could my 
> husband would fix it if he could probably, but it's not that easy.
>

First of all, I didn't say it was going to be easy. But have you tried?  Are 
you an experienced C coder?  Are you saying you tried and found it couldn't 
be done?

> I've got a couple serial synths laying around but the fact is that i've 
> not had a computer with a serial port since 2007 so yep, guess they're out 
> of date. Last time i tried ordering a computer i couldn't get del or hp to 
> add them even though i wanted them.

I am typing this on a Dell Optiplex 760 with a serial port.  We have about 
100 760s all with serial ports. We have another 40 small footprint 760s in 
our student labs all with serial ports.  We have about a dozen newer Dell 
desktops and they all have serial ports. I don't know how you managed to 
order a Dell w/o a serial port but its not that hard to get one with it.

And those are just desktops. Of course, every one of our servers has a 
serial port.  We have 3 mail servers, 2 DNS servers, 3 web servers, and 6 
machines in our VMware cluster. All have serial ports.
I just built myself a machine for home with parts ordered from newegg. The 
mobo didn't have an external serial port but it does have a serial port 
header. So then it was just a matter of attaching the appropriate cable. So 
even a machine I built myself has a serial port.

Look, I'm not saying you don't come across machines w/o serial ports. But 
holy cow, I have certainly never had any trouble finding machines with 
serial ports. Laptops & apples... You're in trouble there.

Building PC without any sight (wasRE: still more on bug)

[Albert Sten-Clanton]

First, I believe 

<pcsforeveryone.com>

Also sells machines with serial ports. 

If it does not, or if it would just save me some big bucks, I may want to
assemble a machine, as John did.  John, how much sighted help did you need
with that, if any?  My limited experience with trying to assemble a computer
indicated that some stuff can be known only by way of color coding, but I'd
like to have been wrong about that.  (I have no sight.)

Thanks!

Al

-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of John Heim
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 5:50 PM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: still more on bug

<speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: still more on bug


> John Heim wrote
> | Well, admittedly, we have a problem down the road regarding serial 
> | hardware synths. But it will be years before serial ports go away 
> | entirely. Every Dell server class machine still comes with at least 
> | one serial port. I don't know about other server manufacturers but I 
> | would guess they're the same. In fact, even dell small footprint 
> | desktops still have serial ports. So I think it will be some time 
> | before server class machines don't come with serial ports. And even 
> | after serial ports become obsolete, speakup won't be obsolete, it 
> | will just have to start supporting USB synths.
>
> You say just like it's easy to fix speakup to do what you want it to do. 
> It's not that easy in fat to fix the code, hell i'd fix it if i could 
> my husband would fix it if he could probably, but it's not that easy.
>

First of all, I didn't say it was going to be easy. But have you tried?  Are
you an experienced C coder?  Are you saying you tried and found it couldn't
be done?

> I've got a couple serial synths laying around but the fact is that 
> i've not had a computer with a serial port since 2007 so yep, guess 
> they're out of date. Last time i tried ordering a computer i couldn't 
> get del or hp to add them even though i wanted them.

I am typing this on a Dell Optiplex 760 with a serial port.  We have about
100 760s all with serial ports. We have another 40 small footprint 760s in
our student labs all with serial ports.  We have about a dozen newer Dell
desktops and they all have serial ports. I don't know how you managed to
order a Dell w/o a serial port but its not that hard to get one with it.

And those are just desktops. Of course, every one of our servers has a
serial port.  We have 3 mail servers, 2 DNS servers, 3 web servers, and 6
machines in our VMware cluster. All have serial ports.
I just built myself a machine for home with parts ordered from newegg. The
mobo didn't have an external serial port but it does have a serial port
header. So then it was just a matter of attaching the appropriate cable. So
even a machine I built myself has a serial port.

Look, I'm not saying you don't come across machines w/o serial ports. But
holy cow, I have certainly never had any trouble finding machines with
serial ports. Laptops & apples... You're in trouble there.

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Building PC without any sight (wasRE: still more on bug)

[Littlefield, Tyler]

Hello:
I built a PC for a customer a while back, and it was fairly easy.
The cases come with nice handy little trays you slide out and hook the 
mobo to, so you just put in your standoffs, put in the scrues and pop 
the tray back in.
The power supplies connector to the mobo used to be a color deal--it was 
four pins and you could put it one of two ways. One way would work, the 
other would make pretty lights and smoke. It's a fairly easy process, 
just make sure you buy a static wrist strap and ground yourself out.

I also like Newegg, in case I didn't mention it: newegg.com
HTH,

On 2/14/2012 4:24 PM, Albert Sten-Clanton wrote:
> First, I believe
>
> <pcsforeveryone.com>
>
> Also sells machines with serial ports.
>
> If it does not, or if it would just save me some big bucks, I may want to
> assemble a machine, as John did.  John, how much sighted help did you need
> with that, if any?  My limited experience with trying to assemble a computer
> indicated that some stuff can be known only by way of color coding, but I'd
> like to have been wrong about that.  (I have no sight.)
>
> Thanks!
>
> Al
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
> On Behalf Of John Heim
> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 5:50 PM
> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> Subject: Re: still more on bug
>
> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 2:00 PM
> Subject: Re: still more on bug
>
>
>> John Heim wrote
>> | Well, admittedly, we have a problem down the road regarding serial
>> | hardware synths. But it will be years before serial ports go away
>> | entirely. Every Dell server class machine still comes with at least
>> | one serial port. I don't know about other server manufacturers but I
>> | would guess they're the same. In fact, even dell small footprint
>> | desktops still have serial ports. So I think it will be some time
>> | before server class machines don't come with serial ports. And even
>> | after serial ports become obsolete, speakup won't be obsolete, it
>> | will just have to start supporting USB synths.
>>
>> You say just like it's easy to fix speakup to do what you want it to do.
>> It's not that easy in fat to fix the code, hell i'd fix it if i could
>> my husband would fix it if he could probably, but it's not that easy.
>>
> First of all, I didn't say it was going to be easy. But have you tried?  Are
> you an experienced C coder?  Are you saying you tried and found it couldn't
> be done?
>
>> I've got a couple serial synths laying around but the fact is that
>> i've not had a computer with a serial port since 2007 so yep, guess
>> they're out of date. Last time i tried ordering a computer i couldn't
>> get del or hp to add them even though i wanted them.
> I am typing this on a Dell Optiplex 760 with a serial port.  We have about
> 100 760s all with serial ports. We have another 40 small footprint 760s in
> our student labs all with serial ports.  We have about a dozen newer Dell
> desktops and they all have serial ports. I don't know how you managed to
> order a Dell w/o a serial port but its not that hard to get one with it.
>
> And those are just desktops. Of course, every one of our servers has a
> serial port.  We have 3 mail servers, 2 DNS servers, 3 web servers, and 6
> machines in our VMware cluster. All have serial ports.
> I just built myself a machine for home with parts ordered from newegg. The
> mobo didn't have an external serial port but it does have a serial port
> header. So then it was just a matter of attaching the appropriate cable. So
> even a machine I built myself has a serial port.
>
> Look, I'm not saying you don't come across machines w/o serial ports. But
> holy cow, I have certainly never had any trouble finding machines with
> serial ports. Laptops&  apples... You're in trouble there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup


-- 

Take care,
Ty
Web: http://tds-solutions.net
The Aspen project: a light-weight barebones mud engine
http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud

Sent from my toaster.

Re: Building PC without any sight (wasRE: still more on bug)

[Glenn]

I've never used the wrist strap, as I always have my arms on the chassis for 
stability.
Glenn
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 6:44 PM
Subject: Re: Building PC without any sight (wasRE: still more on bug)



Hello:
I built a PC for a customer a while back, and it was fairly easy.
The cases come with nice handy little trays you slide out and hook the
mobo to, so you just put in your standoffs, put in the scrues and pop
the tray back in.
The power supplies connector to the mobo used to be a color deal--it was
four pins and you could put it one of two ways. One way would work, the
other would make pretty lights and smoke. It's a fairly easy process,
just make sure you buy a static wrist strap and ground yourself out.

I also like Newegg, in case I didn't mention it: newegg.com
HTH,

On 2/14/2012 4:24 PM, Albert Sten-Clanton wrote:
> First, I believe
>
> <pcsforeveryone.com>
>
> Also sells machines with serial ports.
>
> If it does not, or if it would just save me some big bucks, I may want to
> assemble a machine, as John did.  John, how much sighted help did you need
> with that, if any?  My limited experience with trying to assemble a 
> computer
> indicated that some stuff can be known only by way of color coding, but 
> I'd
> like to have been wrong about that.  (I have no sight.)
>
> Thanks!
>
> Al
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca 
> [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
> On Behalf Of John Heim
> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 5:50 PM
> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> Subject: Re: still more on bug
>
> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 2:00 PM
> Subject: Re: still more on bug
>
>
>> John Heim wrote
>> | Well, admittedly, we have a problem down the road regarding serial
>> | hardware synths. But it will be years before serial ports go away
>> | entirely. Every Dell server class machine still comes with at least
>> | one serial port. I don't know about other server manufacturers but I
>> | would guess they're the same. In fact, even dell small footprint
>> | desktops still have serial ports. So I think it will be some time
>> | before server class machines don't come with serial ports. And even
>> | after serial ports become obsolete, speakup won't be obsolete, it
>> | will just have to start supporting USB synths.
>>
>> You say just like it's easy to fix speakup to do what you want it to do.
>> It's not that easy in fat to fix the code, hell i'd fix it if i could
>> my husband would fix it if he could probably, but it's not that easy.
>>
> First of all, I didn't say it was going to be easy. But have you tried? 
> Are
> you an experienced C coder?  Are you saying you tried and found it 
> couldn't
> be done?
>
>> I've got a couple serial synths laying around but the fact is that
>> i've not had a computer with a serial port since 2007 so yep, guess
>> they're out of date. Last time i tried ordering a computer i couldn't
>> get del or hp to add them even though i wanted them.
> I am typing this on a Dell Optiplex 760 with a serial port.  We have about
> 100 760s all with serial ports. We have another 40 small footprint 760s in
> our student labs all with serial ports.  We have about a dozen newer Dell
> desktops and they all have serial ports. I don't know how you managed to
> order a Dell w/o a serial port but its not that hard to get one with it.
>
> And those are just desktops. Of course, every one of our servers has a
> serial port.  We have 3 mail servers, 2 DNS servers, 3 web servers, and 6
> machines in our VMware cluster. All have serial ports.
> I just built myself a machine for home with parts ordered from newegg. The
> mobo didn't have an external serial port but it does have a serial port
> header. So then it was just a matter of attaching the appropriate cable. 
> So
> even a machine I built myself has a serial port.
>
> Look, I'm not saying you don't come across machines w/o serial ports. But
> holy cow, I have certainly never had any trouble finding machines with
> serial ports. Laptops&  apples... You're in trouble there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup


-- 

Take care,
Ty
Web: http://tds-solutions.net
The Aspen project: a light-weight barebones mud engine
http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud

Sent from my toaster.

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 

Re: Building PC without any sight (wasRE: still more on bug)

[Gregory Nowak]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 09:46:00PM -0600, Glenn wrote:
> I've never used the wrist strap, as I always have my arms on the chassis for 
> stability.

I suppose that's fine, as long as you make sure the part of the
chassis your skin is in contact with isn't painted.

Greg


- -- 
web site: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org
gpg public key: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org/pubkey.asc
skype: gregn1
(authorization required, add me to your contacts list first)

- --
Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAk87N04ACgkQ7s9z/XlyUyCK9wCgtr6hUFOQFr25gztzCsQ4v1m1
XLgAoJB3gqhM9lvnfnEhcqNiwX0cDLgN
=BOB6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: Building PC without any sight (wasRE: still more on bug)

[Glenn]

I've had had my hands on hundreds of motherboards, with no problems.
I think some folks naturally carry more or less static electricity than 
others.
Glenn
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gregory Nowak" <greg@romuald.net.eu.org>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 10:40 PM
Subject: Re: Building PC without any sight (wasRE: still more on bug)


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 09:46:00PM -0600, Glenn wrote:
> I've never used the wrist strap, as I always have my arms on the chassis 
> for
> stability.

I suppose that's fine, as long as you make sure the part of the
chassis your skin is in contact with isn't painted.

Greg


- -- 
web site: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org
gpg public key: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org/pubkey.asc
skype: gregn1
(authorization required, add me to your contacts list first)

- --
Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAk87N04ACgkQ7s9z/XlyUyCK9wCgtr6hUFOQFr25gztzCsQ4v1m1
XLgAoJB3gqhM9lvnfnEhcqNiwX0cDLgN
=BOB6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 

Re: Building PC without any sight (wasRE: still more on bug)

[Littlefield, Tyler]

You probably won't burn something out, but I like to wear the wrist 
strap to make sure. I put a system together for a friend that dropped 
like 2.5k on the thing for a gaming setup. I didn't want to take the 
chance, so I just got the $3 wrist strap.
On 2/14/2012 10:13 PM, Glenn wrote:
> I've had had my hands on hundreds of motherboards, with no problems.
> I think some folks naturally carry more or less static electricity than
> others.
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gregory Nowak"<greg@romuald.net.eu.org>
> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."<speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 10:40 PM
> Subject: Re: Building PC without any sight (wasRE: still more on bug)
>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 09:46:00PM -0600, Glenn wrote:
>> I've never used the wrist strap, as I always have my arms on the chassis
>> for
>> stability.
> I suppose that's fine, as long as you make sure the part of the
> chassis your skin is in contact with isn't painted.
>
> Greg
>
>
> - -- 
> web site: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org
> gpg public key: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org/pubkey.asc
> skype: gregn1
> (authorization required, add me to your contacts list first)
>
> - --
> Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAk87N04ACgkQ7s9z/XlyUyCK9wCgtr6hUFOQFr25gztzCsQ4v1m1
> XLgAoJB3gqhM9lvnfnEhcqNiwX0cDLgN
> =BOB6
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup


-- 

Take care,
Ty
Web: http://tds-solutions.net
The Aspen project: a light-weight barebones mud engine
http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud

Sent from my toaster.

RE: Building PC without any sight, thanks

[Albert Sten-Clanton]

This is just to say thanks to the folks wou've given me what looks like good
news on this.  I think there's a local course on computer hardware coming in
April, and maybe, along with what people have written here, that will help
me roll in that direction.  (Or maybe I'll be able to read enough
elsewhere.)

Al 

-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of Littlefield, Tyler
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 12:31 AM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: Building PC without any sight (wasRE: still more on bug)

You probably won't burn something out, but I like to wear the wrist strap to
make sure. I put a system together for a friend that dropped like 2.5k on
the thing for a gaming setup. I didn't want to take the chance, so I just
got the $3 wrist strap.
On 2/14/2012 10:13 PM, Glenn wrote:
> I've had had my hands on hundreds of motherboards, with no problems.
> I think some folks naturally carry more or less static electricity 
> than others.
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gregory Nowak"<greg@romuald.net.eu.org>
> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for 
> Linux."<speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 10:40 PM
> Subject: Re: Building PC without any sight (wasRE: still more on bug)
>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 09:46:00PM -0600, Glenn wrote:
>> I've never used the wrist strap, as I always have my arms on the 
>> chassis for stability.
> I suppose that's fine, as long as you make sure the part of the 
> chassis your skin is in contact with isn't painted.
>
> Greg
>
>
> - --
> web site: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org gpg public key: 
> http://www.romuald.net.eu.org/pubkey.asc
> skype: gregn1
> (authorization required, add me to your contacts list first)
>
> - --
> Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org -----BEGIN 
> PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAk87N04ACgkQ7s9z/XlyUyCK9wCgtr6hUFOQFr25gztzCsQ4v1m1
> XLgAoJB3gqhM9lvnfnEhcqNiwX0cDLgN
> =BOB6
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup


-- 

Take care,
Ty
Web: http://tds-solutions.net
The Aspen project: a light-weight barebones mud engine
http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud

Sent from my toaster.

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Building PC without any sight (wasRE: still more on bug)

[Michael Whapples]

Hello,
The main places where I have needed sighted support in building a PC is 
connecting the front panel connectors (eg. power button, power LED, HDD LED, 
possibly USB headers, etc). Normally the front panel connectors do not have 
shaped plugs which only allow them to be connected to the correct pins. 
About all other connectors only fit in the places where they should go. The 
only possible exception might be SATA and memory connections and this isn't 
something where it doesn't work but just a loss of performance. If the board 
has SATA 3GBps and 6GBps ports like intel based boards do then if you have a 
SSD you may connect it to the slower SATA connection. In theory there is 
nothing wrong with that, but if you have gone to the expense of a SSD you 
probably want to use it at the maximum speed it can work at. With the 
memoryt connectors many modern PCs expect pairs of memory in specific 
connectors and these are colour coordinated, getting it wrong possibly won't 
make it not work, but rather will just mean you won't get the full 
performance capable of the system.

Michael Whapples

-----Original Message----- 
From: Albert Sten-Clanton
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 11:24 PM
To: 'Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.'
Subject: Building PC without any sight (wasRE: still more on bug)

First, I believe

<pcsforeveryone.com>

Also sells machines with serial ports.

If it does not, or if it would just save me some big bucks, I may want to
assemble a machine, as John did.  John, how much sighted help did you need
with that, if any?  My limited experience with trying to assemble a computer
indicated that some stuff can be known only by way of color coding, but I'd
like to have been wrong about that.  (I have no sight.)

Thanks!

Al

-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of John Heim
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 5:50 PM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: still more on bug

<speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: still more on bug


> John Heim wrote
> | Well, admittedly, we have a problem down the road regarding serial
> | hardware synths. But it will be years before serial ports go away
> | entirely. Every Dell server class machine still comes with at least
> | one serial port. I don't know about other server manufacturers but I
> | would guess they're the same. In fact, even dell small footprint
> | desktops still have serial ports. So I think it will be some time
> | before server class machines don't come with serial ports. And even
> | after serial ports become obsolete, speakup won't be obsolete, it
> | will just have to start supporting USB synths.
>
> You say just like it's easy to fix speakup to do what you want it to do.
> It's not that easy in fat to fix the code, hell i'd fix it if i could
> my husband would fix it if he could probably, but it's not that easy.
>

First of all, I didn't say it was going to be easy. But have you tried?  Are
you an experienced C coder?  Are you saying you tried and found it couldn't
be done?

> I've got a couple serial synths laying around but the fact is that
> i've not had a computer with a serial port since 2007 so yep, guess
> they're out of date. Last time i tried ordering a computer i couldn't
> get del or hp to add them even though i wanted them.

I am typing this on a Dell Optiplex 760 with a serial port.  We have about
100 760s all with serial ports. We have another 40 small footprint 760s in
our student labs all with serial ports.  We have about a dozen newer Dell
desktops and they all have serial ports. I don't know how you managed to
order a Dell w/o a serial port but its not that hard to get one with it.

And those are just desktops. Of course, every one of our servers has a
serial port.  We have 3 mail servers, 2 DNS servers, 3 web servers, and 6
machines in our VMware cluster. All have serial ports.
I just built myself a machine for home with parts ordered from newegg. The
mobo didn't have an external serial port but it does have a serial port
header. So then it was just a matter of attaching the appropriate cable. So
even a machine I built myself has a serial port.

Look, I'm not saying you don't come across machines w/o serial ports. But
holy cow, I have certainly never had any trouble finding machines with
serial ports. Laptops & apples... You're in trouble there.

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Building PC without any sight (wasRE: still more on bug)

[Buddy Brannan]

My experience tells me that the only trouble you're likely to have will be with connecting the front panel LED's and buttons. How easy or difficult this is will vary some by the motherboard, but you can usually trace the wires to where they go. The trick is putting the connectors on the right pins. Some sighted help is probably, well, helpful, in this regard, but it should be pretty minimal. 
--
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY



On Feb 14, 2012, at 6:24 PM, Albert Sten-Clanton wrote:

> First, I believe 
> 
> <pcsforeveryone.com>
> 
> Also sells machines with serial ports. 
> 
> If it does not, or if it would just save me some big bucks, I may want to
> assemble a machine, as John did.  John, how much sighted help did you need
> with that, if any?  My limited experience with trying to assemble a computer
> indicated that some stuff can be known only by way of color coding, but I'd
> like to have been wrong about that.  (I have no sight.)
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Al
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
> On Behalf Of John Heim
> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 5:50 PM
> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> Subject: Re: still more on bug
> 
> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 2:00 PM
> Subject: Re: still more on bug
> 
> 
>> John Heim wrote
>> | Well, admittedly, we have a problem down the road regarding serial 
>> | hardware synths. But it will be years before serial ports go away 
>> | entirely. Every Dell server class machine still comes with at least 
>> | one serial port. I don't know about other server manufacturers but I 
>> | would guess they're the same. In fact, even dell small footprint 
>> | desktops still have serial ports. So I think it will be some time 
>> | before server class machines don't come with serial ports. And even 
>> | after serial ports become obsolete, speakup won't be obsolete, it 
>> | will just have to start supporting USB synths.
>> 
>> You say just like it's easy to fix speakup to do what you want it to do. 
>> It's not that easy in fat to fix the code, hell i'd fix it if i could 
>> my husband would fix it if he could probably, but it's not that easy.
>> 
> 
> First of all, I didn't say it was going to be easy. But have you tried?  Are
> you an experienced C coder?  Are you saying you tried and found it couldn't
> be done?
> 
>> I've got a couple serial synths laying around but the fact is that 
>> i've not had a computer with a serial port since 2007 so yep, guess 
>> they're out of date. Last time i tried ordering a computer i couldn't 
>> get del or hp to add them even though i wanted them.
> 
> I am typing this on a Dell Optiplex 760 with a serial port.  We have about
> 100 760s all with serial ports. We have another 40 small footprint 760s in
> our student labs all with serial ports.  We have about a dozen newer Dell
> desktops and they all have serial ports. I don't know how you managed to
> order a Dell w/o a serial port but its not that hard to get one with it.
> 
> And those are just desktops. Of course, every one of our servers has a
> serial port.  We have 3 mail servers, 2 DNS servers, 3 web servers, and 6
> machines in our VMware cluster. All have serial ports.
> I just built myself a machine for home with parts ordered from newegg. The
> mobo didn't have an external serial port but it does have a serial port
> header. So then it was just a matter of attaching the appropriate cable. So
> even a machine I built myself has a serial port.
> 
> Look, I'm not saying you don't come across machines w/o serial ports. But
> holy cow, I have certainly never had any trouble finding machines with
> serial ports. Laptops & apples... You're in trouble there.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Building PC without any sight (wasRE: still more on bug)

[Glenn]

I've put quite a few together, and I don't have enough sight left to help 
me.
The only things I needed help for is the jumpers on the motherboard and hard 
drive, and the pins for some of the wires for the fan and power switch.
This information for the wires will be in the manual that should come with 
the motherboard.
So you can pretty much get all ready, and have a reader come in for a couple 
minutes to finish the wires and jumpers.
HTH.
Glenn
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Albert Sten-Clanton" <albert.e.sten_clanton@verizon.net>
To: "'Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.'" 
<speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 5:24 PM
Subject: Building PC without any sight (wasRE: still more on bug)


First, I believe

<pcsforeveryone.com>

Also sells machines with serial ports.

If it does not, or if it would just save me some big bucks, I may want to
assemble a machine, as John did.  John, how much sighted help did you need
with that, if any?  My limited experience with trying to assemble a computer
indicated that some stuff can be known only by way of color coding, but I'd
like to have been wrong about that.  (I have no sight.)

Thanks!

Al

-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of John Heim
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 5:50 PM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: still more on bug

<speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: still more on bug


> John Heim wrote
> | Well, admittedly, we have a problem down the road regarding serial
> | hardware synths. But it will be years before serial ports go away
> | entirely. Every Dell server class machine still comes with at least
> | one serial port. I don't know about other server manufacturers but I
> | would guess they're the same. In fact, even dell small footprint
> | desktops still have serial ports. So I think it will be some time
> | before server class machines don't come with serial ports. And even
> | after serial ports become obsolete, speakup won't be obsolete, it
> | will just have to start supporting USB synths.
>
> You say just like it's easy to fix speakup to do what you want it to do.
> It's not that easy in fat to fix the code, hell i'd fix it if i could
> my husband would fix it if he could probably, but it's not that easy.
>

First of all, I didn't say it was going to be easy. But have you tried?  Are
you an experienced C coder?  Are you saying you tried and found it couldn't
be done?

> I've got a couple serial synths laying around but the fact is that
> i've not had a computer with a serial port since 2007 so yep, guess
> they're out of date. Last time i tried ordering a computer i couldn't
> get del or hp to add them even though i wanted them.

I am typing this on a Dell Optiplex 760 with a serial port.  We have about
100 760s all with serial ports. We have another 40 small footprint 760s in
our student labs all with serial ports.  We have about a dozen newer Dell
desktops and they all have serial ports. I don't know how you managed to
order a Dell w/o a serial port but its not that hard to get one with it.

And those are just desktops. Of course, every one of our servers has a
serial port.  We have 3 mail servers, 2 DNS servers, 3 web servers, and 6
machines in our VMware cluster. All have serial ports.
I just built myself a machine for home with parts ordered from newegg. The
mobo didn't have an external serial port but it does have a serial port
header. So then it was just a matter of attaching the appropriate cable. So
even a machine I built myself has a serial port.

Look, I'm not saying you don't come across machines w/o serial ports. But
holy cow, I have certainly never had any trouble finding machines with
serial ports. Laptops & apples... You're in trouble there.

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 

Re: Building PC without any sight (wasRE: still more on bug)

[John Heim]

All of the cables from the case to the mobo can be identified by feel.  The 
problem is that it may not be clear where to plug them into the mobo. You'll 
be able to figure out how to connect the power, fan, sata devices, and 
serial adapter. But there will also be wires on the case for the front panel 
power and reset buttons and the audio and USB jacks. The ends of those wires 
are all different so you will be able to identify them but you won't know 
how to connect them to the mobo unless you have access to that 
documentation. And you're not going to be able to ask your spouse to look it 
up either unless they're a computer nerd too.

To tell you the truth, I got assistance from an on-line PC hobbiest group. 
One guy in particular downloaded the manual for my mobo and described via 
email how to connect up the wires. It was difficult to do but I got it. It 
worked the first time.

Another thing I got sighted assistance with was installing the CPU.   I 
bought an AMD Phenom CPU and it has itty, bitty, tiny pins.  I googled for 
instructions on installing that CPU and listened to a lot of videos. But I 
still wasn't confident enough to do it myself.  The previous machine I built 
had an Intel CPU and I installed that myself. But that was 3 or 4 years ago.

But I think that's about it. I got help with the CPU and the wires from the 
front of the case. The rest I did myself. I installed the mobo in the case, 
connected up the power, the fan, installed the RAM, the hard disk, and the 
DVD drive,.

From: "Albert Sten-Clanton" <albert.e.sten_clanton@verizon.net>
To: "'Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.'" 
<speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 5:24 PM
Subject: Building PC without any sight (wasRE: still more on bug)


> First, I believe
>
> <pcsforeveryone.com>
>
> Also sells machines with serial ports.
>
> If it does not, or if it would just save me some big bucks, I may want to
> assemble a machine, as John did.  John, how much sighted help did you need
> with that, if any?  My limited experience with trying to assemble a 
> computer
> indicated that some stuff can be known only by way of color coding, but 
> I'd
> like to have been wrong about that.  (I have no sight.)
>
> Thanks!
>
> Al
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca 
> [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
> On Behalf Of John Heim
> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 5:50 PM
> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> Subject: Re: still more on bug
>
> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 2:00 PM
> Subject: Re: still more on bug
>
>
>> John Heim wrote
>> | Well, admittedly, we have a problem down the road regarding serial
>> | hardware synths. But it will be years before serial ports go away
>> | entirely. Every Dell server class machine still comes with at least
>> | one serial port. I don't know about other server manufacturers but I
>> | would guess they're the same. In fact, even dell small footprint
>> | desktops still have serial ports. So I think it will be some time
>> | before server class machines don't come with serial ports. And even
>> | after serial ports become obsolete, speakup won't be obsolete, it
>> | will just have to start supporting USB synths.
>>
>> You say just like it's easy to fix speakup to do what you want it to do.
>> It's not that easy in fat to fix the code, hell i'd fix it if i could
>> my husband would fix it if he could probably, but it's not that easy.
>>
>
> First of all, I didn't say it was going to be easy. But have you tried? 
> Are
> you an experienced C coder?  Are you saying you tried and found it 
> couldn't
> be done?
>
>> I've got a couple serial synths laying around but the fact is that
>> i've not had a computer with a serial port since 2007 so yep, guess
>> they're out of date. Last time i tried ordering a computer i couldn't
>> get del or hp to add them even though i wanted them.
>
> I am typing this on a Dell Optiplex 760 with a serial port.  We have about
> 100 760s all with serial ports. We have another 40 small footprint 760s in
> our student labs all with serial ports.  We have about a dozen newer Dell
> desktops and they all have serial ports. I don't know how you managed to
> order a Dell w/o a serial port but its not that hard to get one with it.
>
> And those are just desktops. Of course, every one of our servers has a
> serial port.  We have 3 mail servers, 2 DNS servers, 3 web servers, and 6
> machines in our VMware cluster. All have serial ports.
> I just built myself a machine for home with parts ordered from newegg. The
> mobo didn't have an external serial port but it does have a serial port
> header. So then it was just a matter of attaching the appropriate cable. 
> So
> even a machine I built myself has a serial port.
>
> Look, I'm not saying you don't come across machines w/o serial ports. But
> holy cow, I have certainly never had any trouble finding machines with
> serial ports. Laptops & apples... You're in trouble there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> 

RE: Building PC without any sight (wasRE: still more on bug)

[Albert Sten-Clanton]

John, thank you for these comments.  They may help me a great deal.

Also, I've responded to another message of yours.  I hope it's clear from
that message that, regarding criticisms, it is not aimed at you, but at an
attidude that if one is not a programmer then one should simply wear a
muzzle.  I may be feeling too strongly about this, but I doubt it:  as one
with but an intermediate knowledge of Linux, and one with a wife who almost
prides herself on being a non-technical user, I am deeply horrified by those
whose tack seems to be that if you can't write the relevant code on a thing
then you should cement your trap shut.  In this instance, that does not seem
to be you, so I hope you will find no reason to take offense, as none was
intended.

Al 

-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of John Heim
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 5:26 PM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: Building PC without any sight (wasRE: still more on bug)

All of the cables from the case to the mobo can be identified by feel.  The
problem is that it may not be clear where to plug them into the mobo. You'll
be able to figure out how to connect the power, fan, sata devices, and
serial adapter. But there will also be wires on the case for the front panel
power and reset buttons and the audio and USB jacks. The ends of those wires
are all different so you will be able to identify them but you won't know
how to connect them to the mobo unless you have access to that
documentation. And you're not going to be able to ask your spouse to look it
up either unless they're a computer nerd too.

To tell you the truth, I got assistance from an on-line PC hobbiest group. 
One guy in particular downloaded the manual for my mobo and described via
email how to connect up the wires. It was difficult to do but I got it. It
worked the first time.

Another thing I got sighted assistance with was installing the CPU.   I 
bought an AMD Phenom CPU and it has itty, bitty, tiny pins.  I googled for
instructions on installing that CPU and listened to a lot of videos. But I
still wasn't confident enough to do it myself.  The previous machine I built
had an Intel CPU and I installed that myself. But that was 3 or 4 years ago.

But I think that's about it. I got help with the CPU and the wires from the
front of the case. The rest I did myself. I installed the mobo in the case,
connected up the power, the fan, installed the RAM, the hard disk, and the
DVD drive,.

From: "Albert Sten-Clanton" <albert.e.sten_clanton@verizon.net>
To: "'Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.'" 
<speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 5:24 PM
Subject: Building PC without any sight (wasRE: still more on bug)


> First, I believe
>
> <pcsforeveryone.com>
>
> Also sells machines with serial ports.
>
> If it does not, or if it would just save me some big bucks, I may want 
> to assemble a machine, as John did.  John, how much sighted help did 
> you need with that, if any?  My limited experience with trying to 
> assemble a computer indicated that some stuff can be known only by way 
> of color coding, but I'd like to have been wrong about that.  (I have 
> no sight.)
>
> Thanks!
>
> Al
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca
> [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
> On Behalf Of John Heim
> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 5:50 PM
> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> Subject: Re: still more on bug
>
> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 2:00 PM
> Subject: Re: still more on bug
>
>
>> John Heim wrote
>> | Well, admittedly, we have a problem down the road regarding serial 
>> | hardware synths. But it will be years before serial ports go away 
>> | entirely. Every Dell server class machine still comes with at least 
>> | one serial port. I don't know about other server manufacturers but 
>> | I would guess they're the same. In fact, even dell small footprint 
>> | desktops still have serial ports. So I think it will be some time 
>> | before server class machines don't come with serial ports. And even 
>> | after serial ports become obsolete, speakup won't be obsolete, it 
>> | will just have to start supporting USB synths.
>>
>> You say just like it's easy to fix speakup to do what you want it to do.
>> It's not that easy in fat to fix the code, hell i'd fix it if i could 
>> my husband would fix it if he could probably, but it's not that easy.
>>
>
> First of all, I didn't say it was going to be easy. But have you tried? 
> Are
> you an experienced C coder?  Are you saying you tried and found it 
> couldn't be done?
>
>> I've got a couple serial synths laying around but the fact is that 
>> i've not had a computer with a serial port since 2007 so yep, guess 
>> they're out of date. Last time i tried ordering a computer i couldn't 
>> get del or hp to add them even though i wanted them.
>
> I am typing this on a Dell Optiplex 760 with a serial port.  We have 
> about 100 760s all with serial ports. We have another 40 small 
> footprint 760s in our student labs all with serial ports.  We have 
> about a dozen newer Dell desktops and they all have serial ports. I 
> don't know how you managed to order a Dell w/o a serial port but its not
that hard to get one with it.
>
> And those are just desktops. Of course, every one of our servers has a 
> serial port.  We have 3 mail servers, 2 DNS servers, 3 web servers, 
> and 6 machines in our VMware cluster. All have serial ports.
> I just built myself a machine for home with parts ordered from newegg. 
> The mobo didn't have an external serial port but it does have a serial 
> port header. So then it was just a matter of attaching the appropriate
cable.
> So
> even a machine I built myself has a serial port.
>
> Look, I'm not saying you don't come across machines w/o serial ports. 
> But holy cow, I have certainly never had any trouble finding machines 
> with serial ports. Laptops & apples... You're in trouble there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> 

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Building PC without any sight (wasRE: still more on bug)

[Michael Whapples]

Case connectors can vary, some I would agree its a matter of knowing what 
pins in other cases its much harder. Let me give an example: The system I am 
using to write this message, the firewire and audio header cables terminate 
in individual plugs for each individual wire instead of a single plug for 
the type of connection its a header for. I needed sighted help with finding 
which was the left and right audio wires, which was the microphone one and 
which were the ground wires and then the pins on the board needed to be 
found. In fact not knowing a huge amount about the wiring of firewire and as 
the labels in the board manual differed from those on the cable I agreed 
with the sighted person not to bother trying to match those up.

As for processors, I thought normally they will only fit one way round. Yes 
you need to be careful of the pins,but you shouldn't need any force to 
insert the processor so it should be possible to do it by feel without 
damaging it. As a note: The current intel socket 1155 processors have little 
notches in the side of the chip and the socket has bits which fit into these 
so its extremely obvious which way it fits before you even start putting the 
processor on the socket.

Michael Whapples

-----Original Message----- 
From: John Heim
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 10:25 PM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: Building PC without any sight (wasRE: still more on bug)

All of the cables from the case to the mobo can be identified by feel.  The
problem is that it may not be clear where to plug them into the mobo. You'll
be able to figure out how to connect the power, fan, sata devices, and
serial adapter. But there will also be wires on the case for the front panel
power and reset buttons and the audio and USB jacks. The ends of those wires
are all different so you will be able to identify them but you won't know
how to connect them to the mobo unless you have access to that
documentation. And you're not going to be able to ask your spouse to look it
up either unless they're a computer nerd too.

To tell you the truth, I got assistance from an on-line PC hobbiest group.
One guy in particular downloaded the manual for my mobo and described via
email how to connect up the wires. It was difficult to do but I got it. It
worked the first time.

Another thing I got sighted assistance with was installing the CPU.   I
bought an AMD Phenom CPU and it has itty, bitty, tiny pins.  I googled for
instructions on installing that CPU and listened to a lot of videos. But I
still wasn't confident enough to do it myself.  The previous machine I built
had an Intel CPU and I installed that myself. But that was 3 or 4 years ago.

But I think that's about it. I got help with the CPU and the wires from the
front of the case. The rest I did myself. I installed the mobo in the case,
connected up the power, the fan, installed the RAM, the hard disk, and the
DVD drive,.

From: "Albert Sten-Clanton" <albert.e.sten_clanton@verizon.net>
To: "'Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.'"
<speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 5:24 PM
Subject: Building PC without any sight (wasRE: still more on bug)


> First, I believe
>
> <pcsforeveryone.com>
>
> Also sells machines with serial ports.
>
> If it does not, or if it would just save me some big bucks, I may want to
> assemble a machine, as John did.  John, how much sighted help did you need
> with that, if any?  My limited experience with trying to assemble a 
> computer
> indicated that some stuff can be known only by way of color coding, but 
> I'd
> like to have been wrong about that.  (I have no sight.)
>
> Thanks!
>
> Al
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca 
> [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
> On Behalf Of John Heim
> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 5:50 PM
> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> Subject: Re: still more on bug
>
> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 2:00 PM
> Subject: Re: still more on bug
>
>
>> John Heim wrote
>> | Well, admittedly, we have a problem down the road regarding serial
>> | hardware synths. But it will be years before serial ports go away
>> | entirely. Every Dell server class machine still comes with at least
>> | one serial port. I don't know about other server manufacturers but I
>> | would guess they're the same. In fact, even dell small footprint
>> | desktops still have serial ports. So I think it will be some time
>> | before server class machines don't come with serial ports. And even
>> | after serial ports become obsolete, speakup won't be obsolete, it
>> | will just have to start supporting USB synths.
>>
>> You say just like it's easy to fix speakup to do what you want it to do.
>> It's not that easy in fat to fix the code, hell i'd fix it if i could
>> my husband would fix it if he could probably, but it's not that easy.
>>
>
> First of all, I didn't say it was going to be easy. But have you tried? 
> Are
> you an experienced C coder?  Are you saying you tried and found it 
> couldn't
> be done?
>
>> I've got a couple serial synths laying around but the fact is that
>> i've not had a computer with a serial port since 2007 so yep, guess
>> they're out of date. Last time i tried ordering a computer i couldn't
>> get del or hp to add them even though i wanted them.
>
> I am typing this on a Dell Optiplex 760 with a serial port.  We have about
> 100 760s all with serial ports. We have another 40 small footprint 760s in
> our student labs all with serial ports.  We have about a dozen newer Dell
> desktops and they all have serial ports. I don't know how you managed to
> order a Dell w/o a serial port but its not that hard to get one with it.
>
> And those are just desktops. Of course, every one of our servers has a
> serial port.  We have 3 mail servers, 2 DNS servers, 3 web servers, and 6
> machines in our VMware cluster. All have serial ports.
> I just built myself a machine for home with parts ordered from newegg. The
> mobo didn't have an external serial port but it does have a serial port
> header. So then it was just a matter of attaching the appropriate cable. 
> So
> even a machine I built myself has a serial port.
>
> Look, I'm not saying you don't come across machines w/o serial ports. But
> holy cow, I have certainly never had any trouble finding machines with
> serial ports. Laptops & apples... You're in trouble there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: still more on bug

[Deedra Waters]

John Heim wrote
| <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
| Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 2:00 PM
| Subject: Re: still more on bug
| 
| 
| >John Heim wrote
| >| Well, admittedly, we have a problem down the road regarding serial
| >| hardware synths. But it will be years before serial ports go away
| >| entirely. Every Dell server class machine still comes with at least
| >| one serial port. I don't know about other server manufacturers but I
| >| would guess they're the same. In fact, even dell small footprint
| >| desktops still have serial ports. So I think it will be some time
| >| before server class machines don't come with serial ports. And even
| >| after serial ports become obsolete, speakup won't be obsolete, it
| >| will just have to start supporting USB synths.
| >
| >You say just like it's easy to fix speakup to do what you want it
| >to do. It's not that easy in fat to fix the code, hell i'd fix it
| >if i could my husband would fix it if he could probably, but it's
| >not that easy.
| >
| 
| First of all, I didn't say it was going to be easy. But have you
| tried?  Are you an experienced C coder?  Are you saying you tried
| and found it couldn't be done?

I'm saying i know several who have worked on speakup over the years and the folks who've maintained it lately can't fix it/haven't been able to is probably the better wording here. As for me, no i'm no coder at all but saying i'd be willing to work on it if i could code my way out of a wet paper bag.
| 
| >I've got a couple serial synths laying around but the fact is that
| >i've not had a computer with a serial port since 2007 so yep,
| >guess they're out of date. Last time i tried ordering a computer i
| >couldn't get del or hp to add them even though i wanted them.
| 
| I am typing this on a Dell Optiplex 760 with a serial port.  We have
| about 100 760s all with serial ports. We have another 40 small
| footprint 760s in our student labs all with serial ports.  We have
| about a dozen newer Dell desktops and they all have serial ports. I
| don't know how you managed to order a Dell w/o a serial port but its
| not that hard to get one with it.

maybe you should tell del to start advertising the models with serial ports?:P point is like i said the machines i've gotten which are generally the shitmachines as i call dells haven't had them:P

| 
| And those are just desktops. Of course, every one of our servers has
| a serial port.  We have 3 mail servers, 2 DNS servers, 3 web
| servers, and 6 machines in our VMware cluster. All have serial
| ports.
| I just built myself a machine for home with parts ordered from
| newegg. The mobo didn't have an external serial port but it does
| have a serial port header. So then it was just a matter of attaching
| the appropriate cable. So even a machine I built myself has a serial
| port.

Yeah machines you build yourselves will have serial ports i found that out after we baught our machines.... Not gonna keep arguing the point with you accept to say that most machines you see unless you know what you're looking for just usually wont have a serial port.

Serial synths aren't used hell even hardware synths aren't usually used these days it's all about software speech. I'm not saying serial/usb synths are bad, in fact i tend to prefer them. However those people who like and prefer them aren't a majority of the blind population. The majority prefers software speech as far as i've seen and could care less.Of course i could be completely wrong, but that's what i've seen over the past several years. My long-winded point here is that several factors combine together make software speech the better choice, be it the lack of serial ports on low priced machines, or the fact that the kernel folks could care less about speakup being in the kernel, or pulseaudio being forced on everyone.

If you really want the support, pitch in and start fixing code.:)
| 
| Look, I'm not saying you don't come across machines w/o serial
| ports. But holy cow, I have certainly never had any trouble finding
| machines with serial ports. Laptops & apples... You're in trouble
| there.
| 
| _______________________________________________
| Speakup mailing list
| Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
| http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
---end quoted text---

Re: still more on bug

[John Heim]

From: "Deedra Waters" <deedra@the-brannons.com>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 6:34 PM
>
> I'm saying i know several who have worked on speakup over the years and 
> the folks who've maintained it lately can't fix it/haven't been able to is 
> probably the
> better wording here. As for me, no i'm no coder at all but saying i'd be 
> willing to work on it if i could code my way out of a wet paper bag.
>

Well, don't be so negative, okay? First of all, the current group of 
developers are smart guys. I'm not saying they'll have it tomorrow but they 
may get around to it eventually. And if not, I'm sure someone will pick up 
the ball. Heck, it might even be me.

> maybe you should tell del to start advertising the models with serial 
> ports?:P point is like i said the machines i've gotten which are generally 
> the shitmachines as i > call dells haven't had them:P

It might be a good idea for you to ask on this list for recommendations next 
time you need to buy a new PC. Its not difficult to get a PC with a serial 
port. Another suggestion I have is to check used computer stores. You might 
be able to find a slightly older high-end model for cheap there. Of course, 
there is also the option of building your own PC. I built my last two PCs 
myself. Admittedly, that is not for the faint of heart.

RE: still more on bug

[Albert Sten-Clanton]

John, now much sight, if any, would you think is needed to build a PC with
serial ports?

Not a direct respons to you, but I suspect that, if a majroity of blind
folks using Linux do indeed express a degree of satisfation iwhth software
speech, it could gbe because they're stuck with it, much as most blind
people use Windows because, as somebody said to me, "you can't fight the
giant." Software speech does have its advantages, perhaps portability being
the most notable one I can think of, but, for those who like to know hwat's
kicking in as booting progresses, there's nothing like using Speakup with a
hardware synthesizer.  (Indeed, this is a key difference between using
Speakup and a hardware synthesizer and dealing with a Windows machine--or
DOS in the old days.) For those who would say either write the relevant code
or shut the hell up, I'd say this:  if ordinary users don't count, then we
can forget Linux ever even remotely approaching Windows or any other
much-uused operating system in popularity.  As a believer in freedom, I
would regard it as an undermining of Linux'
S mission to declare that only the elite among us have any business
declaring--commanding--our destiny.  (Even Microshaft doesn't do that, I
think.)

I appreciate your own efforts, so wish to be clear that the comments in the
previous paragraph are aimed at a perspective that, as far as I can tell,
does not seem to be yours at this pioint.  As a user who is unlikely to
master the relevant code, I do not wish to be relegated to the status of one
who must accept whatever the alleged majority wishes to inflict and the
programmers wish to comply with.  I will reluctantly but dutifully crawl
back to Windows, or find something else, if software freedom is not
accompanied with top-notch software quality, or if we mere user mortals are
commanded to take what we're given or wear muzzles.

Al   

-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of John Heim
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 5:53 PM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: still more on bug

From: "Deedra Waters" <deedra@the-brannons.com>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 6:34 PM
>
> I'm saying i know several who have worked on speakup over the years 
> and the folks who've maintained it lately can't fix it/haven't been 
> able to is probably the better wording here. As for me, no i'm no 
> coder at all but saying i'd be willing to work on it if i could code 
> my way out of a wet paper bag.
>

Well, don't be so negative, okay? First of all, the current group of
developers are smart guys. I'm not saying they'll have it tomorrow but they
may get around to it eventually. And if not, I'm sure someone will pick up
the ball. Heck, it might even be me.

> maybe you should tell del to start advertising the models with serial 
> ports?:P point is like i said the machines i've gotten which are 
> generally the shitmachines as i > call dells haven't had them:P

It might be a good idea for you to ask on this list for recommendations next
time you need to buy a new PC. Its not difficult to get a PC with a serial
port. Another suggestion I have is to check used computer stores. You might
be able to find a slightly older high-end model for cheap there. Of course,
there is also the option of building your own PC. I built my last two PCs
myself. Admittedly, that is not for the faint of heart.


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: still more on bug

[John Heim]

Al, practically everything you wrote below counters arguements I never made.

First, I didn't say blind people who want a machine with a serial port 
should go out there and build one. I offered that as one possible solution 
and, in fact, said it wasn't for everyone. It was the third option I listed.

Secondly, I never said people shouldn't be satisfied with software speech. 
I said hardware speech is necessary to some people for doing things like 
rescuing down servers.  If you never have to do something like that and are 
happy with software speech, obviously, its fine by me.

Third, I never said ordinary users of speakup shouldn't ask for new 
features.  In fact, that's exactly what I did myself when I said that 
speakup is going to have to support USB hardware synths someday.  I merely 
objected to someone elses suggestion that it wasn't likely to happen.  We 
weren't discussing whether supporting USB synths is a good idea or even 
whether its reasonable to ask for that feature. We were only disagreeing 
about how likely we are to ever see it.

From: "Albert Sten-Clanton" <albert.e.sten_clanton@verizon.net>
To: "'Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.'" 
<speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 6:41 PM
Subject: RE: still more on bug


> John, now much sight, if any, would you think is needed to build a PC with
> serial ports?
>
> Not a direct respons to you, but I suspect that, if a majroity of blind
> folks using Linux do indeed express a degree of satisfation iwhth software
> speech, it could gbe because they're stuck with it, much as most blind
> people use Windows because, as somebody said to me, "you can't fight the
> giant." Software speech does have its advantages, perhaps portability 
> being
> the most notable one I can think of, but, for those who like to know 
> hwat's
> kicking in as booting progresses, there's nothing like using Speakup with 
> a
> hardware synthesizer.  (Indeed, this is a key difference between using
> Speakup and a hardware synthesizer and dealing with a Windows machine--or
> DOS in the old days.) For those who would say either write the relevant 
> code
> or shut the hell up, I'd say this:  if ordinary users don't count, then we
> can forget Linux ever even remotely approaching Windows or any other
> much-uused operating system in popularity.  As a believer in freedom, I
> would regard it as an undermining of Linux'
> S mission to declare that only the elite among us have any business
> declaring--commanding--our destiny.  (Even Microshaft doesn't do that, I
> think.)
>
> I appreciate your own efforts, so wish to be clear that the comments in 
> the
> previous paragraph are aimed at a perspective that, as far as I can tell,
> does not seem to be yours at this pioint.  As a user who is unlikely to
> master the relevant code, I do not wish to be relegated to the status of 
> one
> who must accept whatever the alleged majority wishes to inflict and the
> programmers wish to comply with.  I will reluctantly but dutifully crawl
> back to Windows, or find something else, if software freedom is not
> accompanied with top-notch software quality, or if we mere user mortals 
> are
> commanded to take what we're given or wear muzzles.
>
> Al
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca 
> [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
> On Behalf Of John Heim
> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 5:53 PM
> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> Subject: Re: still more on bug
>
> From: "Deedra Waters" <deedra@the-brannons.com>
> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." 
> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 6:34 PM
>>
>> I'm saying i know several who have worked on speakup over the years
>> and the folks who've maintained it lately can't fix it/haven't been
>> able to is probably the better wording here. As for me, no i'm no
>> coder at all but saying i'd be willing to work on it if i could code
>> my way out of a wet paper bag.
>>
>
> Well, don't be so negative, okay? First of all, the current group of
> developers are smart guys. I'm not saying they'll have it tomorrow but 
> they
> may get around to it eventually. And if not, I'm sure someone will pick up
> the ball. Heck, it might even be me.
>
>> maybe you should tell del to start advertising the models with serial
>> ports?:P point is like i said the machines i've gotten which are
>> generally the shitmachines as i > call dells haven't had them:P
>
> It might be a good idea for you to ask on this list for recommendations 
> next
> time you need to buy a new PC. Its not difficult to get a PC with a serial
> port. Another suggestion I have is to check used computer stores. You 
> might
> be able to find a slightly older high-end model for cheap there. Of 
> course,
> there is also the option of building your own PC. I built my last two PCs
> myself. Admittedly, that is not for the faint of heart.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> 

RE: still more on bug

[Albert Sten-Clanton]

John, though the typing in my message below yours here was utterly lousy
(too many beers), such criticisms as I made were not directed towards you,
and I said as much there and in a later message.  Those concerning the
acceptance of software speech were in fact aimed at earlier comments from
somebody else.  

I most certainly and indisputably did not accuse you of saying that blind
people would have to build their own machines in order to get serial ports:
nothing you said gave any basis for such an assertion on my part, so I never
made it.  (Indeed, I had noted earlier yesterday that 

<www.pcsforeveruyone.com>

May actually offer serial ports.)  

Furthermore, you are among the people to whom I recall expressing gratitude
yesterday for replying positively to my question whether a blind person
could build a machine.  I must apologize if I wrote badly, but I reiterate
that I was not criticizing anything you said, and did not even address a
couple of things you mention here.

In sjhort, I have found your recent messages here concerning Speakup, serial
ports, and related matters helpful.  My concern here is that support for
hardware speech may become difficult to get down the road, maybe even
impossible for somebody not well-versed in kernel matters, and my impression
is that you may share this concern at least to some degree.

Maybe using a reply to one of your messages was a bad idea; if so, for that
I apologize.  It was the vehicle I had, and, as I said above, I tried to be
clear that your comments were not the reason for my expressed concerns.

Take care!

Al

 

-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of John Heim
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 12:23 PM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: still more on bug

Al, practically everything you wrote below counters arguements I never made.

First, I didn't say blind people who want a machine with a serial port
should go out there and build one. I offered that as one possible solution
and, in fact, said it wasn't for everyone. It was the third option I listed.

Secondly, I never said people shouldn't be satisfied with software speech. 
I said hardware speech is necessary to some people for doing things like
rescuing down servers.  If you never have to do something like that and are
happy with software speech, obviously, its fine by me.

Third, I never said ordinary users of speakup shouldn't ask for new
features.  In fact, that's exactly what I did myself when I said that
speakup is going to have to support USB hardware synths someday.  I merely
objected to someone elses suggestion that it wasn't likely to happen.  We
weren't discussing whether supporting USB synths is a good idea or even
whether its reasonable to ask for that feature. We were only disagreeing
about how likely we are to ever see it.

From: "Albert Sten-Clanton" <albert.e.sten_clanton@verizon.net>
To: "'Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.'" 
<speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 6:41 PM
Subject: RE: still more on bug


> John, now much sight, if any, would you think is needed to build a PC 
> with serial ports?
>
> Not a direct respons to you, but I suspect that, if a majroity of 
> blind folks using Linux do indeed express a degree of satisfation 
> iwhth software speech, it could gbe because they're stuck with it, 
> much as most blind people use Windows because, as somebody said to me, 
> "you can't fight the giant." Software speech does have its advantages, 
> perhaps portability being the most notable one I can think of, but, 
> for those who like to know hwat's kicking in as booting progresses, 
> there's nothing like using Speakup with a hardware synthesizer.  
> (Indeed, this is a key difference between using Speakup and a hardware 
> synthesizer and dealing with a Windows machine--or DOS in the old 
> days.) For those who would say either write the relevant code or shut 
> the hell up, I'd say this:  if ordinary users don't count, then we can 
> forget Linux ever even remotely approaching Windows or any other 
> much-uused operating system in popularity.  As a believer in freedom, 
> I would regard it as an undermining of Linux'
> S mission to declare that only the elite among us have any business 
> declaring--commanding--our destiny.  (Even Microshaft doesn't do that, 
> I
> think.)
>
> I appreciate your own efforts, so wish to be clear that the comments 
> in the previous paragraph are aimed at a perspective that, as far as I 
> can tell, does not seem to be yours at this pioint.  As a user who is 
> unlikely to master the relevant code, I do not wish to be relegated to 
> the status of one who must accept whatever the alleged majority wishes 
> to inflict and the programmers wish to comply with.  I will 
> reluctantly but dutifully crawl back to Windows, or find something 
> else, if software freedom is not accompanied with top-notch software 
> quality, or if we mere user mortals are commanded to take what we're 
> given or wear muzzles.
>
> Al
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca
> [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
> On Behalf Of John Heim
> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 5:53 PM
> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> Subject: Re: still more on bug
>
> From: "Deedra Waters" <deedra@the-brannons.com>
> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." 
> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 6:34 PM
>>
>> I'm saying i know several who have worked on speakup over the years 
>> and the folks who've maintained it lately can't fix it/haven't been 
>> able to is probably the better wording here. As for me, no i'm no 
>> coder at all but saying i'd be willing to work on it if i could code 
>> my way out of a wet paper bag.
>>
>
> Well, don't be so negative, okay? First of all, the current group of 
> developers are smart guys. I'm not saying they'll have it tomorrow but 
> they may get around to it eventually. And if not, I'm sure someone 
> will pick up the ball. Heck, it might even be me.
>
>> maybe you should tell del to start advertising the models with serial 
>> ports?:P point is like i said the machines i've gotten which are 
>> generally the shitmachines as i > call dells haven't had them:P
>
> It might be a good idea for you to ask on this list for 
> recommendations next time you need to buy a new PC. Its not difficult 
> to get a PC with a serial port. Another suggestion I have is to check 
> used computer stores. You might be able to find a slightly older 
> high-end model for cheap there. Of course, there is also the option of 
> building your own PC. I built my last two PCs myself. Admittedly, that 
> is not for the faint of heart.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> 

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: still more on bug

[Littlefield, Tyler]

I think the responses you were refering to can be discarded and ignored. 
The "shitmachine" comment as well as many others didn't do much to 
bolster the poster's comments, and there wasn't much in the way of fact. 
Either way, I think that said poster was speaking for a very small 
minority, as a lot of people would like to see Speakup get more support.

If I were a kernel guru, or had some way to hopping on that path to 
enlightenment, I'd be more than willing to help out since I already know 
c. I'm also lacking a USB synth, so that's another problem.
 From what I understand though, the USB subsystem would have to be 
enabled for a USB synth to work. There's a lot more behind USB than 
serial; I know this much from my work I've done on a toy operating 
system I've been building. The external serial cards are also an issue, 
unless you can get one that would fit in the internal PCI slot--that I 
am unsure of. PCMCIA for example though is yet another system that has 
to be enabled. This is still doable, but you're going to miss out on 
earlier boot messages.

Something I've found of interest, though it requires another system to 
catching boot messages is there is a networking boot setup in the 
kernel. I'm not really sure "networking boot" accurately describes it, 
but here are the docs:
http://www.mjmwired.net/kernel/Documentation/networking/netconsole.txt

Something else worth looking into, and I'm not really sure if it was 
mentioned in this thread but it was for sure mentioned before is Speakup 
in user space. I'd be 100% willing to at least help with something like 
that, but I remember from previous conversations that there are reasons 
why Speakup is in kernel space--the TTY access being one of them. How 
possible would it be to promote speakup to User space (yeah, I guess 
that would get rid of boot messages, but netconsole is always there), 
and then just leave a thin layer behind in kernel space to provide the 
access to the kernel that we need? From what I understand from the bit 
I've done, there exists three points to access drivers from user space:
- System calls, (though it's probably prefered that these are not used, 
since installing a system call would require that you know what number 
it would be. If something else were to install a syscall before you, you 
couldn't have a constant number).
- The proc FS, which Speakup already uses to get and set information.
- A device in /dev.

Could the TTY (and other access) be given through one of these so that 
the user-space speakup could gather the information it needed? What are 
the security implications of something like this? You obviously wouldn't 
want to just allow raw TTY access, so I'm not sure if there would be a 
way to limit this somehow.

Just my two cents and ramblings. Like I said, if there was any way to 
make this work out, I'd love to help out with it. I just don't think I 
know enough about kernel programming to hop in the trenches and start 
fixing the bugs. Both because I don't know much about kernel 
programming, and from what I understand there is need for USB support 
and work for speakup running on systems with more than one processor, 
neither of which I have.

On 2/16/2012 3:45 PM, Albert Sten-Clanton wrote:
> John, though the typing in my message below yours here was utterly lousy
> (too many beers), such criticisms as I made were not directed towards you,
> and I said as much there and in a later message.  Those concerning the
> acceptance of software speech were in fact aimed at earlier comments from
> somebody else.
>
> I most certainly and indisputably did not accuse you of saying that blind
> people would have to build their own machines in order to get serial ports:
> nothing you said gave any basis for such an assertion on my part, so I never
> made it.  (Indeed, I had noted earlier yesterday that
>
> <www.pcsforeveruyone.com>
>
> May actually offer serial ports.)
>
> Furthermore, you are among the people to whom I recall expressing gratitude
> yesterday for replying positively to my question whether a blind person
> could build a machine.  I must apologize if I wrote badly, but I reiterate
> that I was not criticizing anything you said, and did not even address a
> couple of things you mention here.
>
> In sjhort, I have found your recent messages here concerning Speakup, serial
> ports, and related matters helpful.  My concern here is that support for
> hardware speech may become difficult to get down the road, maybe even
> impossible for somebody not well-versed in kernel matters, and my impression
> is that you may share this concern at least to some degree.
>
> Maybe using a reply to one of your messages was a bad idea; if so, for that
> I apologize.  It was the vehicle I had, and, as I said above, I tried to be
> clear that your comments were not the reason for my expressed concerns.
>
> Take care!
>
> Al
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
> On Behalf Of John Heim
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 12:23 PM
> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> Subject: Re: still more on bug
>
> Al, practically everything you wrote below counters arguements I never made.
>
> First, I didn't say blind people who want a machine with a serial port
> should go out there and build one. I offered that as one possible solution
> and, in fact, said it wasn't for everyone. It was the third option I listed.
>
> Secondly, I never said people shouldn't be satisfied with software speech.
> I said hardware speech is necessary to some people for doing things like
> rescuing down servers.  If you never have to do something like that and are
> happy with software speech, obviously, its fine by me.
>
> Third, I never said ordinary users of speakup shouldn't ask for new
> features.  In fact, that's exactly what I did myself when I said that
> speakup is going to have to support USB hardware synths someday.  I merely
> objected to someone elses suggestion that it wasn't likely to happen.  We
> weren't discussing whether supporting USB synths is a good idea or even
> whether its reasonable to ask for that feature. We were only disagreeing
> about how likely we are to ever see it.
>
> From: "Albert Sten-Clanton"<albert.e.sten_clanton@verizon.net>
> To: "'Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.'"
> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 6:41 PM
> Subject: RE: still more on bug
>
>
>> John, now much sight, if any, would you think is needed to build a PC
>> with serial ports?
>>
>> Not a direct respons to you, but I suspect that, if a majroity of
>> blind folks using Linux do indeed express a degree of satisfation
>> iwhth software speech, it could gbe because they're stuck with it,
>> much as most blind people use Windows because, as somebody said to me,
>> "you can't fight the giant." Software speech does have its advantages,
>> perhaps portability being the most notable one I can think of, but,
>> for those who like to know hwat's kicking in as booting progresses,
>> there's nothing like using Speakup with a hardware synthesizer.
>> (Indeed, this is a key difference between using Speakup and a hardware
>> synthesizer and dealing with a Windows machine--or DOS in the old
>> days.) For those who would say either write the relevant code or shut
>> the hell up, I'd say this:  if ordinary users don't count, then we can
>> forget Linux ever even remotely approaching Windows or any other
>> much-uused operating system in popularity.  As a believer in freedom,
>> I would regard it as an undermining of Linux'
>> S mission to declare that only the elite among us have any business
>> declaring--commanding--our destiny.  (Even Microshaft doesn't do that,
>> I
>> think.)
>>
>> I appreciate your own efforts, so wish to be clear that the comments
>> in the previous paragraph are aimed at a perspective that, as far as I
>> can tell, does not seem to be yours at this pioint.  As a user who is
>> unlikely to master the relevant code, I do not wish to be relegated to
>> the status of one who must accept whatever the alleged majority wishes
>> to inflict and the programmers wish to comply with.  I will
>> reluctantly but dutifully crawl back to Windows, or find something
>> else, if software freedom is not accompanied with top-notch software
>> quality, or if we mere user mortals are commanded to take what we're
>> given or wear muzzles.
>>
>> Al
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca
>> [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
>> On Behalf Of John Heim
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 5:53 PM
>> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
>> Subject: Re: still more on bug
>>
>> From: "Deedra Waters"<deedra@the-brannons.com>
>> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
>> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 6:34 PM
>>> I'm saying i know several who have worked on speakup over the years
>>> and the folks who've maintained it lately can't fix it/haven't been
>>> able to is probably the better wording here. As for me, no i'm no
>>> coder at all but saying i'd be willing to work on it if i could code
>>> my way out of a wet paper bag.
>>>
>> Well, don't be so negative, okay? First of all, the current group of
>> developers are smart guys. I'm not saying they'll have it tomorrow but
>> they may get around to it eventually. And if not, I'm sure someone
>> will pick up the ball. Heck, it might even be me.
>>
>>> maybe you should tell del to start advertising the models with serial
>>> ports?:P point is like i said the machines i've gotten which are
>>> generally the shitmachines as i>  call dells haven't had them:P
>> It might be a good idea for you to ask on this list for
>> recommendations next time you need to buy a new PC. Its not difficult
>> to get a PC with a serial port. Another suggestion I have is to check
>> used computer stores. You might be able to find a slightly older
>> high-end model for cheap there. Of course, there is also the option of
>> building your own PC. I built my last two PCs myself. Admittedly, that
>> is not for the faint of heart.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup


-- 

Take care,
Ty
Web: http://tds-solutions.net
The Aspen project: a light-weight barebones mud engine
http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud

Sent from my toaster.

Re: still more on bug

[Michael Whapples]

Hello,
I will make a comment on the user space thing. I don't know about the effort 
in promoting existing speakup to user space but if one were to talk about 
more generally creating a screen reader to work in user space then I am sure 
something that would work for many in a satisfactory way could be created, 
there are sort of examples already existing showing approaches which could 
be used for accessing what is being displayed.

I think YASR using a system of spawning a new shell inside itself and so 
catching what is put out to that shell. One advantage of this approach is 
that it works on more than Linux, I believe it has been made to work on a 
Mac in the terminal window, with FreeBSD text consoles and solaris as well 
as Linux. I think though it does mean you need to start the screen reader 
for every terminal you wish to use. Also while I think ways have been made 
to get YASR work for login it isn't so clear and I haven't got that going 
with YASR (I am unclear on what to do). Also it may be worth noting, I don't 
know if YASR is still maintained and if it isn't why that would be the case 
(IE. is it a technical matter with YASR design or is it developer time).

Another alternative is look at BrlTTY. BrlTTY has screen drivers for 
different situations and that is something which could be done for user 
space if you want to support more than Linux although I think with BrlTTY 
the Linux text console driver may be the most advanced. Certainly on Linux 
in a text console BrlTTY seems to work very well, its extremely easy to get 
running (either once you have logged in or as a service which starts in the 
boot process and so gives access to log in). I don't know whether it would 
be possible if a new screen reader were to be done whether to use the same 
API as the BrlTTY screen drivers and so potentially make use of that 
existing work, its probably more of an issue with licensing than a technical 
one if any issue does exist.

I have to say I know little of the difficulties of working in the kernel, 
any programming I do is in Python or Java so I am better with user space 
stuff. However from a user angle, speakup possibly does need to keep up with 
technology, there seems to be an increasing demand for being able to use USB 
synths. Serial ports may not be disappearing entirely, but there are classes 
of computers (eg. laptops) where serial ports have near enough gone and even 
for desktops while serial ports may not be hard to find there may be other 
factors in choosing a computer and requiring a serial port possibly is just 
imposing an unnecessary restriction on the choice. I won't comment on how 
easy it is to add USB support in a kernel level screen reader due to my lack 
of knowledge in that area, however I do know that in user space you have 
libraries such as libusb which can help a lot in accessing USB devices (look 
at BrlTTY which has had USB support for some years now).

Finally what ever route is taken it will be some sort of compromise, if 
keeping it in the kernel provides better/more features it may come at the 
cost of development being slower than many may like, but putting it in user 
space may come at the cost of some features like boot messages not being 
accessible with the screen reader.

Michael Whapples

-----Original Message----- 
From: Littlefield, Tyler
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 12:13 AM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: still more on bug

I think the responses you were refering to can be discarded and ignored.
The "shitmachine" comment as well as many others didn't do much to
bolster the poster's comments, and there wasn't much in the way of fact.
Either way, I think that said poster was speaking for a very small
minority, as a lot of people would like to see Speakup get more support.

If I were a kernel guru, or had some way to hopping on that path to
enlightenment, I'd be more than willing to help out since I already know
c. I'm also lacking a USB synth, so that's another problem.
>From what I understand though, the USB subsystem would have to be
enabled for a USB synth to work. There's a lot more behind USB than
serial; I know this much from my work I've done on a toy operating
system I've been building. The external serial cards are also an issue,
unless you can get one that would fit in the internal PCI slot--that I
am unsure of. PCMCIA for example though is yet another system that has
to be enabled. This is still doable, but you're going to miss out on
earlier boot messages.

Something I've found of interest, though it requires another system to
catching boot messages is there is a networking boot setup in the
kernel. I'm not really sure "networking boot" accurately describes it,
but here are the docs:
http://www.mjmwired.net/kernel/Documentation/networking/netconsole.txt

Something else worth looking into, and I'm not really sure if it was
mentioned in this thread but it was for sure mentioned before is Speakup
in user space. I'd be 100% willing to at least help with something like
that, but I remember from previous conversations that there are reasons
why Speakup is in kernel space--the TTY access being one of them. How
possible would it be to promote speakup to User space (yeah, I guess
that would get rid of boot messages, but netconsole is always there),
and then just leave a thin layer behind in kernel space to provide the
access to the kernel that we need? From what I understand from the bit
I've done, there exists three points to access drivers from user space:
- System calls, (though it's probably prefered that these are not used,
since installing a system call would require that you know what number
it would be. If something else were to install a syscall before you, you
couldn't have a constant number).
- The proc FS, which Speakup already uses to get and set information.
- A device in /dev.

Could the TTY (and other access) be given through one of these so that
the user-space speakup could gather the information it needed? What are
the security implications of something like this? You obviously wouldn't
want to just allow raw TTY access, so I'm not sure if there would be a
way to limit this somehow.

Just my two cents and ramblings. Like I said, if there was any way to
make this work out, I'd love to help out with it. I just don't think I
know enough about kernel programming to hop in the trenches and start
fixing the bugs. Both because I don't know much about kernel
programming, and from what I understand there is need for USB support
and work for speakup running on systems with more than one processor,
neither of which I have.

On 2/16/2012 3:45 PM, Albert Sten-Clanton wrote:
> John, though the typing in my message below yours here was utterly lousy
> (too many beers), such criticisms as I made were not directed towards you,
> and I said as much there and in a later message.  Those concerning the
> acceptance of software speech were in fact aimed at earlier comments from
> somebody else.
>
> I most certainly and indisputably did not accuse you of saying that blind
> people would have to build their own machines in order to get serial 
> ports:
> nothing you said gave any basis for such an assertion on my part, so I 
> never
> made it.  (Indeed, I had noted earlier yesterday that
>
> <www.pcsforeveruyone.com>
>
> May actually offer serial ports.)
>
> Furthermore, you are among the people to whom I recall expressing 
> gratitude
> yesterday for replying positively to my question whether a blind person
> could build a machine.  I must apologize if I wrote badly, but I reiterate
> that I was not criticizing anything you said, and did not even address a
> couple of things you mention here.
>
> In sjhort, I have found your recent messages here concerning Speakup, 
> serial
> ports, and related matters helpful.  My concern here is that support for
> hardware speech may become difficult to get down the road, maybe even
> impossible for somebody not well-versed in kernel matters, and my 
> impression
> is that you may share this concern at least to some degree.
>
> Maybe using a reply to one of your messages was a bad idea; if so, for 
> that
> I apologize.  It was the vehicle I had, and, as I said above, I tried to 
> be
> clear that your comments were not the reason for my expressed concerns.
>
> Take care!
>
> Al
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca 
> [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
> On Behalf Of John Heim
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 12:23 PM
> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> Subject: Re: still more on bug
>
> Al, practically everything you wrote below counters arguements I never 
> made.
>
> First, I didn't say blind people who want a machine with a serial port
> should go out there and build one. I offered that as one possible solution
> and, in fact, said it wasn't for everyone. It was the third option I 
> listed.
>
> Secondly, I never said people shouldn't be satisfied with software speech.
> I said hardware speech is necessary to some people for doing things like
> rescuing down servers.  If you never have to do something like that and 
> are
> happy with software speech, obviously, its fine by me.
>
> Third, I never said ordinary users of speakup shouldn't ask for new
> features.  In fact, that's exactly what I did myself when I said that
> speakup is going to have to support USB hardware synths someday.  I merely
> objected to someone elses suggestion that it wasn't likely to happen.  We
> weren't discussing whether supporting USB synths is a good idea or even
> whether its reasonable to ask for that feature. We were only disagreeing
> about how likely we are to ever see it.
>
> From: "Albert Sten-Clanton"<albert.e.sten_clanton@verizon.net>
> To: "'Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.'"
> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 6:41 PM
> Subject: RE: still more on bug
>
>
>> John, now much sight, if any, would you think is needed to build a PC
>> with serial ports?
>>
>> Not a direct respons to you, but I suspect that, if a majroity of
>> blind folks using Linux do indeed express a degree of satisfation
>> iwhth software speech, it could gbe because they're stuck with it,
>> much as most blind people use Windows because, as somebody said to me,
>> "you can't fight the giant." Software speech does have its advantages,
>> perhaps portability being the most notable one I can think of, but,
>> for those who like to know hwat's kicking in as booting progresses,
>> there's nothing like using Speakup with a hardware synthesizer.
>> (Indeed, this is a key difference between using Speakup and a hardware
>> synthesizer and dealing with a Windows machine--or DOS in the old
>> days.) For those who would say either write the relevant code or shut
>> the hell up, I'd say this:  if ordinary users don't count, then we can
>> forget Linux ever even remotely approaching Windows or any other
>> much-uused operating system in popularity.  As a believer in freedom,
>> I would regard it as an undermining of Linux'
>> S mission to declare that only the elite among us have any business
>> declaring--commanding--our destiny.  (Even Microshaft doesn't do that,
>> I
>> think.)
>>
>> I appreciate your own efforts, so wish to be clear that the comments
>> in the previous paragraph are aimed at a perspective that, as far as I
>> can tell, does not seem to be yours at this pioint.  As a user who is
>> unlikely to master the relevant code, I do not wish to be relegated to
>> the status of one who must accept whatever the alleged majority wishes
>> to inflict and the programmers wish to comply with.  I will
>> reluctantly but dutifully crawl back to Windows, or find something
>> else, if software freedom is not accompanied with top-notch software
>> quality, or if we mere user mortals are commanded to take what we're
>> given or wear muzzles.
>>
>> Al
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca
>> [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
>> On Behalf Of John Heim
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 5:53 PM
>> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
>> Subject: Re: still more on bug
>>
>> From: "Deedra Waters"<deedra@the-brannons.com>
>> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
>> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 6:34 PM
>>> I'm saying i know several who have worked on speakup over the years
>>> and the folks who've maintained it lately can't fix it/haven't been
>>> able to is probably the better wording here. As for me, no i'm no
>>> coder at all but saying i'd be willing to work on it if i could code
>>> my way out of a wet paper bag.
>>>
>> Well, don't be so negative, okay? First of all, the current group of
>> developers are smart guys. I'm not saying they'll have it tomorrow but
>> they may get around to it eventually. And if not, I'm sure someone
>> will pick up the ball. Heck, it might even be me.
>>
>>> maybe you should tell del to start advertising the models with serial
>>> ports?:P point is like i said the machines i've gotten which are
>>> generally the shitmachines as i>  call dells haven't had them:P
>> It might be a good idea for you to ask on this list for
>> recommendations next time you need to buy a new PC. Its not difficult
>> to get a PC with a serial port. Another suggestion I have is to check
>> used computer stores. You might be able to find a slightly older
>> high-end model for cheap there. Of course, there is also the option of
>> building your own PC. I built my last two PCs myself. Admittedly, that
>> is not for the faint of heart.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup


-- 

Take care,
Ty
Web: http://tds-solutions.net
The Aspen project: a light-weight barebones mud engine
http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud

Sent from my toaster.

Re: still more on bug

[John Heim]

I think all you would need to do is write a device driver -- which is a 
little like saying all you need to do is build a big enough rocket and you 
can go to the moon. How's that joke go? How do you teach an elephant to 
dance the bossinova?first you teach him to samba and from there its easy.

Anyway, 25 years ago, I wrote linux device drivers for a living. But I 
haven't written a line of C in anger for 15 years. Not unless you count 
commenting out that line in the speakup synth.c program to get past the bug 
that started all this.

I intend to try to find a solution for that bug.  I don't want to step on 
anybody's toes but I figure the current developers won't mind if I take a 
look at that. But you can't barge into an open source project and just take 
over. For all we know, there may be top men working on it right now. There's 
no point in duplicating effort.  But I know no one is working on the bug I 
have been talking about because I've already asked. At one time, I'd have 
felt pretty qualified to take this on. Right now, I feel my best 
qualifications are that I'm still breathing and willing to give it a try.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 6:13 PM
Subject: Re: still more on bug


>I think the responses you were refering to can be discarded and ignored. 
>The "shitmachine" comment as well as many others didn't do much to bolster 
>the poster's comments, and there wasn't much in the way of fact. Either 
>way, I think that said poster was speaking for a very small minority, as a 
>lot of people would like to see Speakup get more support.
>
> If I were a kernel guru, or had some way to hopping on that path to 
> enlightenment, I'd be more than willing to help out since I already know 
> c. I'm also lacking a USB synth, so that's another problem.
> From what I understand though, the USB subsystem would have to be enabled 
> for a USB synth to work. There's a lot more behind USB than serial; I know 
> this much from my work I've done on a toy operating system I've been 
> building. The external serial cards are also an issue, unless you can get 
> one that would fit in the internal PCI slot--that I am unsure of. PCMCIA 
> for example though is yet another system that has to be enabled. This is 
> still doable, but you're going to miss out on earlier boot messages.
>
> Something I've found of interest, though it requires another system to 
> catching boot messages is there is a networking boot setup in the kernel. 
> I'm not really sure "networking boot" accurately describes it, but here 
> are the docs:
> http://www.mjmwired.net/kernel/Documentation/networking/netconsole.txt
>
> Something else worth looking into, and I'm not really sure if it was 
> mentioned in this thread but it was for sure mentioned before is Speakup 
> in user space. I'd be 100% willing to at least help with something like 
> that, but I remember from previous conversations that there are reasons 
> why Speakup is in kernel space--the TTY access being one of them. How 
> possible would it be to promote speakup to User space (yeah, I guess that 
> would get rid of boot messages, but netconsole is always there), and then 
> just leave a thin layer behind in kernel space to provide the access to 
> the kernel that we need? From what I understand from the bit I've done, 
> there exists three points to access drivers from user space:
> - System calls, (though it's probably prefered that these are not used, 
> since installing a system call would require that you know what number it 
> would be. If something else were to install a syscall before you, you 
> couldn't have a constant number).
> - The proc FS, which Speakup already uses to get and set information.
> - A device in /dev.
>
> Could the TTY (and other access) be given through one of these so that the 
> user-space speakup could gather the information it needed? What are the 
> security implications of something like this? You obviously wouldn't want 
> to just allow raw TTY access, so I'm not sure if there would be a way to 
> limit this somehow.
>
> Just my two cents and ramblings. Like I said, if there was any way to make 
> this work out, I'd love to help out with it. I just don't think I know 
> enough about kernel programming to hop in the trenches and start fixing 
> the bugs. Both because I don't know much about kernel programming, and 
> from what I understand there is need for USB support and work for speakup 
> running on systems with more than one processor, neither of which I have.
>
> On 2/16/2012 3:45 PM, Albert Sten-Clanton wrote:
>> John, though the typing in my message below yours here was utterly lousy
>> (too many beers), such criticisms as I made were not directed towards 
>> you,
>> and I said as much there and in a later message.  Those concerning the
>> acceptance of software speech were in fact aimed at earlier comments from
>> somebody else.
>>
>> I most certainly and indisputably did not accuse you of saying that blind
>> people would have to build their own machines in order to get serial 
>> ports:
>> nothing you said gave any basis for such an assertion on my part, so I 
>> never
>> made it.  (Indeed, I had noted earlier yesterday that
>>
>> <www.pcsforeveruyone.com>
>>
>> May actually offer serial ports.)
>>
>> Furthermore, you are among the people to whom I recall expressing 
>> gratitude
>> yesterday for replying positively to my question whether a blind person
>> could build a machine.  I must apologize if I wrote badly, but I 
>> reiterate
>> that I was not criticizing anything you said, and did not even address a
>> couple of things you mention here.
>>
>> In sjhort, I have found your recent messages here concerning Speakup, 
>> serial
>> ports, and related matters helpful.  My concern here is that support for
>> hardware speech may become difficult to get down the road, maybe even
>> impossible for somebody not well-versed in kernel matters, and my 
>> impression
>> is that you may share this concern at least to some degree.
>>
>> Maybe using a reply to one of your messages was a bad idea; if so, for 
>> that
>> I apologize.  It was the vehicle I had, and, as I said above, I tried to 
>> be
>> clear that your comments were not the reason for my expressed concerns.
>>
>> Take care!
>>
>> Al
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca 
>> [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
>> On Behalf Of John Heim
>> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 12:23 PM
>> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
>> Subject: Re: still more on bug
>>
>> Al, practically everything you wrote below counters arguements I never 
>> made.
>>
>> First, I didn't say blind people who want a machine with a serial port
>> should go out there and build one. I offered that as one possible 
>> solution
>> and, in fact, said it wasn't for everyone. It was the third option I 
>> listed.
>>
>> Secondly, I never said people shouldn't be satisfied with software 
>> speech.
>> I said hardware speech is necessary to some people for doing things like
>> rescuing down servers.  If you never have to do something like that and 
>> are
>> happy with software speech, obviously, its fine by me.
>>
>> Third, I never said ordinary users of speakup shouldn't ask for new
>> features.  In fact, that's exactly what I did myself when I said that
>> speakup is going to have to support USB hardware synths someday.  I 
>> merely
>> objected to someone elses suggestion that it wasn't likely to happen.  We
>> weren't discussing whether supporting USB synths is a good idea or even
>> whether its reasonable to ask for that feature. We were only disagreeing
>> about how likely we are to ever see it.
>>
>> From: "Albert Sten-Clanton"<albert.e.sten_clanton@verizon.net>
>> To: "'Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.'"
>> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 6:41 PM
>> Subject: RE: still more on bug
>>
>>
>>> John, now much sight, if any, would you think is needed to build a PC
>>> with serial ports?
>>>
>>> Not a direct respons to you, but I suspect that, if a majroity of
>>> blind folks using Linux do indeed express a degree of satisfation
>>> iwhth software speech, it could gbe because they're stuck with it,
>>> much as most blind people use Windows because, as somebody said to me,
>>> "you can't fight the giant." Software speech does have its advantages,
>>> perhaps portability being the most notable one I can think of, but,
>>> for those who like to know hwat's kicking in as booting progresses,
>>> there's nothing like using Speakup with a hardware synthesizer.
>>> (Indeed, this is a key difference between using Speakup and a hardware
>>> synthesizer and dealing with a Windows machine--or DOS in the old
>>> days.) For those who would say either write the relevant code or shut
>>> the hell up, I'd say this:  if ordinary users don't count, then we can
>>> forget Linux ever even remotely approaching Windows or any other
>>> much-uused operating system in popularity.  As a believer in freedom,
>>> I would regard it as an undermining of Linux'
>>> S mission to declare that only the elite among us have any business
>>> declaring--commanding--our destiny.  (Even Microshaft doesn't do that,
>>> I
>>> think.)
>>>
>>> I appreciate your own efforts, so wish to be clear that the comments
>>> in the previous paragraph are aimed at a perspective that, as far as I
>>> can tell, does not seem to be yours at this pioint.  As a user who is
>>> unlikely to master the relevant code, I do not wish to be relegated to
>>> the status of one who must accept whatever the alleged majority wishes
>>> to inflict and the programmers wish to comply with.  I will
>>> reluctantly but dutifully crawl back to Windows, or find something
>>> else, if software freedom is not accompanied with top-notch software
>>> quality, or if we mere user mortals are commanded to take what we're
>>> given or wear muzzles.
>>>
>>> Al
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca
>>> [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
>>> On Behalf Of John Heim
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 5:53 PM
>>> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
>>> Subject: Re: still more on bug
>>>
>>> From: "Deedra Waters"<deedra@the-brannons.com>
>>> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
>>> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 6:34 PM
>>>> I'm saying i know several who have worked on speakup over the years
>>>> and the folks who've maintained it lately can't fix it/haven't been
>>>> able to is probably the better wording here. As for me, no i'm no
>>>> coder at all but saying i'd be willing to work on it if i could code
>>>> my way out of a wet paper bag.
>>>>
>>> Well, don't be so negative, okay? First of all, the current group of
>>> developers are smart guys. I'm not saying they'll have it tomorrow but
>>> they may get around to it eventually. And if not, I'm sure someone
>>> will pick up the ball. Heck, it might even be me.
>>>
>>>> maybe you should tell del to start advertising the models with serial
>>>> ports?:P point is like i said the machines i've gotten which are
>>>> generally the shitmachines as i>  call dells haven't had them:P
>>> It might be a good idea for you to ask on this list for
>>> recommendations next time you need to buy a new PC. Its not difficult
>>> to get a PC with a serial port. Another suggestion I have is to check
>>> used computer stores. You might be able to find a slightly older
>>> high-end model for cheap there. Of course, there is also the option of
>>> building your own PC. I built my last two PCs myself. Admittedly, that
>>> is not for the faint of heart.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> -- 
>
> Take care,
> Ty
> Web: http://tds-solutions.net
> The Aspen project: a light-weight barebones mud engine
> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
>
> Sent from my toaster.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> 

Re: still more on bug

[John Heim]

Oops... Twenty five years ago, I wrote unix device drivers for a living, not 
linux. I don't believe linux existed 25 years ago. I worked for a company 
called Merge Technologies (www.merge.com) writing drivers for medical 
imaging equipment. Ironic, isn't it?  A blind guy writing imaging device 
drivers. But that stuff takes a lot of math and I have a BS in math.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Heim" <jheim@math.wisc.edu>
To: <tyler@tysdomain.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." 
<speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 12:35 PM
Subject: Re: still more on bug


>I think all you would need to do is write a device driver -- which is a 
>little like saying all you need to do is build a big enough rocket and you 
>can go to the moon. How's that joke go? How do you teach an elephant to 
>dance the bossinova?first you teach him to samba and from there its easy.
>
> Anyway, 25 years ago, I wrote linux device drivers for a living. But I 
> haven't written a line of C in anger for 15 years. Not unless you count 
> commenting out that line in the speakup synth.c program to get past the 
> bug that started all this.
>
> I intend to try to find a solution for that bug.  I don't want to step on 
> anybody's toes but I figure the current developers won't mind if I take a 
> look at that. But you can't barge into an open source project and just 
> take over. For all we know, there may be top men working on it right now. 
> There's no point in duplicating effort.  But I know no one is working on 
> the bug I have been talking about because I've already asked. At one time, 
> I'd have felt pretty qualified to take this on. Right now, I feel my best 
> qualifications are that I'm still breathing and willing to give it a try.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." 
> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 6:13 PM
> Subject: Re: still more on bug
>
>
>>I think the responses you were refering to can be discarded and ignored. 
>>The "shitmachine" comment as well as many others didn't do much to bolster 
>>the poster's comments, and there wasn't much in the way of fact. Either 
>>way, I think that said poster was speaking for a very small minority, as a 
>>lot of people would like to see Speakup get more support.
>>
>> If I were a kernel guru, or had some way to hopping on that path to 
>> enlightenment, I'd be more than willing to help out since I already know 
>> c. I'm also lacking a USB synth, so that's another problem.
>> From what I understand though, the USB subsystem would have to be enabled 
>> for a USB synth to work. There's a lot more behind USB than serial; I 
>> know this much from my work I've done on a toy operating system I've been 
>> building. The external serial cards are also an issue, unless you can get 
>> one that would fit in the internal PCI slot--that I am unsure of. PCMCIA 
>> for example though is yet another system that has to be enabled. This is 
>> still doable, but you're going to miss out on earlier boot messages.
>>
>> Something I've found of interest, though it requires another system to 
>> catching boot messages is there is a networking boot setup in the kernel. 
>> I'm not really sure "networking boot" accurately describes it, but here 
>> are the docs:
>> http://www.mjmwired.net/kernel/Documentation/networking/netconsole.txt
>>
>> Something else worth looking into, and I'm not really sure if it was 
>> mentioned in this thread but it was for sure mentioned before is Speakup 
>> in user space. I'd be 100% willing to at least help with something like 
>> that, but I remember from previous conversations that there are reasons 
>> why Speakup is in kernel space--the TTY access being one of them. How 
>> possible would it be to promote speakup to User space (yeah, I guess that 
>> would get rid of boot messages, but netconsole is always there), and then 
>> just leave a thin layer behind in kernel space to provide the access to 
>> the kernel that we need? From what I understand from the bit I've done, 
>> there exists three points to access drivers from user space:
>> - System calls, (though it's probably prefered that these are not used, 
>> since installing a system call would require that you know what number it 
>> would be. If something else were to install a syscall before you, you 
>> couldn't have a constant number).
>> - The proc FS, which Speakup already uses to get and set information.
>> - A device in /dev.
>>
>> Could the TTY (and other access) be given through one of these so that 
>> the user-space speakup could gather the information it needed? What are 
>> the security implications of something like this? You obviously wouldn't 
>> want to just allow raw TTY access, so I'm not sure if there would be a 
>> way to limit this somehow.
>>
>> Just my two cents and ramblings. Like I said, if there was any way to 
>> make this work out, I'd love to help out with it. I just don't think I 
>> know enough about kernel programming to hop in the trenches and start 
>> fixing the bugs. Both because I don't know much about kernel programming, 
>> and from what I understand there is need for USB support and work for 
>> speakup running on systems with more than one processor, neither of which 
>> I have.
>>
>> On 2/16/2012 3:45 PM, Albert Sten-Clanton wrote:
>>> John, though the typing in my message below yours here was utterly lousy
>>> (too many beers), such criticisms as I made were not directed towards 
>>> you,
>>> and I said as much there and in a later message.  Those concerning the
>>> acceptance of software speech were in fact aimed at earlier comments 
>>> from
>>> somebody else.
>>>
>>> I most certainly and indisputably did not accuse you of saying that 
>>> blind
>>> people would have to build their own machines in order to get serial 
>>> ports:
>>> nothing you said gave any basis for such an assertion on my part, so I 
>>> never
>>> made it.  (Indeed, I had noted earlier yesterday that
>>>
>>> <www.pcsforeveruyone.com>
>>>
>>> May actually offer serial ports.)
>>>
>>> Furthermore, you are among the people to whom I recall expressing 
>>> gratitude
>>> yesterday for replying positively to my question whether a blind person
>>> could build a machine.  I must apologize if I wrote badly, but I 
>>> reiterate
>>> that I was not criticizing anything you said, and did not even address a
>>> couple of things you mention here.
>>>
>>> In sjhort, I have found your recent messages here concerning Speakup, 
>>> serial
>>> ports, and related matters helpful.  My concern here is that support for
>>> hardware speech may become difficult to get down the road, maybe even
>>> impossible for somebody not well-versed in kernel matters, and my 
>>> impression
>>> is that you may share this concern at least to some degree.
>>>
>>> Maybe using a reply to one of your messages was a bad idea; if so, for 
>>> that
>>> I apologize.  It was the vehicle I had, and, as I said above, I tried to 
>>> be
>>> clear that your comments were not the reason for my expressed concerns.
>>>
>>> Take care!
>>>
>>> Al
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca 
>>> [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
>>> On Behalf Of John Heim
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 12:23 PM
>>> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
>>> Subject: Re: still more on bug
>>>
>>> Al, practically everything you wrote below counters arguements I never 
>>> made.
>>>
>>> First, I didn't say blind people who want a machine with a serial port
>>> should go out there and build one. I offered that as one possible 
>>> solution
>>> and, in fact, said it wasn't for everyone. It was the third option I 
>>> listed.
>>>
>>> Secondly, I never said people shouldn't be satisfied with software 
>>> speech.
>>> I said hardware speech is necessary to some people for doing things like
>>> rescuing down servers.  If you never have to do something like that and 
>>> are
>>> happy with software speech, obviously, its fine by me.
>>>
>>> Third, I never said ordinary users of speakup shouldn't ask for new
>>> features.  In fact, that's exactly what I did myself when I said that
>>> speakup is going to have to support USB hardware synths someday.  I 
>>> merely
>>> objected to someone elses suggestion that it wasn't likely to happen. 
>>> We
>>> weren't discussing whether supporting USB synths is a good idea or even
>>> whether its reasonable to ask for that feature. We were only disagreeing
>>> about how likely we are to ever see it.
>>>
>>> From: "Albert Sten-Clanton"<albert.e.sten_clanton@verizon.net>
>>> To: "'Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.'"
>>> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 6:41 PM
>>> Subject: RE: still more on bug
>>>
>>>
>>>> John, now much sight, if any, would you think is needed to build a PC
>>>> with serial ports?
>>>>
>>>> Not a direct respons to you, but I suspect that, if a majroity of
>>>> blind folks using Linux do indeed express a degree of satisfation
>>>> iwhth software speech, it could gbe because they're stuck with it,
>>>> much as most blind people use Windows because, as somebody said to me,
>>>> "you can't fight the giant." Software speech does have its advantages,
>>>> perhaps portability being the most notable one I can think of, but,
>>>> for those who like to know hwat's kicking in as booting progresses,
>>>> there's nothing like using Speakup with a hardware synthesizer.
>>>> (Indeed, this is a key difference between using Speakup and a hardware
>>>> synthesizer and dealing with a Windows machine--or DOS in the old
>>>> days.) For those who would say either write the relevant code or shut
>>>> the hell up, I'd say this:  if ordinary users don't count, then we can
>>>> forget Linux ever even remotely approaching Windows or any other
>>>> much-uused operating system in popularity.  As a believer in freedom,
>>>> I would regard it as an undermining of Linux'
>>>> S mission to declare that only the elite among us have any business
>>>> declaring--commanding--our destiny.  (Even Microshaft doesn't do that,
>>>> I
>>>> think.)
>>>>
>>>> I appreciate your own efforts, so wish to be clear that the comments
>>>> in the previous paragraph are aimed at a perspective that, as far as I
>>>> can tell, does not seem to be yours at this pioint.  As a user who is
>>>> unlikely to master the relevant code, I do not wish to be relegated to
>>>> the status of one who must accept whatever the alleged majority wishes
>>>> to inflict and the programmers wish to comply with.  I will
>>>> reluctantly but dutifully crawl back to Windows, or find something
>>>> else, if software freedom is not accompanied with top-notch software
>>>> quality, or if we mere user mortals are commanded to take what we're
>>>> given or wear muzzles.
>>>>
>>>> Al
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca
>>>> [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
>>>> On Behalf Of John Heim
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 5:53 PM
>>>> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
>>>> Subject: Re: still more on bug
>>>>
>>>> From: "Deedra Waters"<deedra@the-brannons.com>
>>>> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
>>>> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 6:34 PM
>>>>> I'm saying i know several who have worked on speakup over the years
>>>>> and the folks who've maintained it lately can't fix it/haven't been
>>>>> able to is probably the better wording here. As for me, no i'm no
>>>>> coder at all but saying i'd be willing to work on it if i could code
>>>>> my way out of a wet paper bag.
>>>>>
>>>> Well, don't be so negative, okay? First of all, the current group of
>>>> developers are smart guys. I'm not saying they'll have it tomorrow but
>>>> they may get around to it eventually. And if not, I'm sure someone
>>>> will pick up the ball. Heck, it might even be me.
>>>>
>>>>> maybe you should tell del to start advertising the models with serial
>>>>> ports?:P point is like i said the machines i've gotten which are
>>>>> generally the shitmachines as i>  call dells haven't had them:P
>>>> It might be a good idea for you to ask on this list for
>>>> recommendations next time you need to buy a new PC. Its not difficult
>>>> to get a PC with a serial port. Another suggestion I have is to check
>>>> used computer stores. You might be able to find a slightly older
>>>> high-end model for cheap there. Of course, there is also the option of
>>>> building your own PC. I built my last two PCs myself. Admittedly, that
>>>> is not for the faint of heart.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Speakup mailing list
>>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Speakup mailing list
>>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>>
>> -- 
>>
>> Take care,
>> Ty
>> Web: http://tds-solutions.net
>> The Aspen project: a light-weight barebones mud engine
>> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
>>
>> Sent from my toaster.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>