finished with slackware

finished with slackware

[Jude DaShiell]

14.1 was the killer.  Nothing I did documented or otherwise got any speech 
out of that version of slackware so the disks have been trashed.  I'll not 
buy any future version of the distribution either since by the time the 
disks arrive invariably one or more of them get broken by the shipping 
process.  Slackware is too thrifty to have bubble wrap insulating their 
jewel cases in those cardboard boxes they use for shipping and I have 
complained about this repeatedly to slackware too.  So far as I'm 
concerned, the distribution is inaccessible for installation or use.  I 
suspect further something happens in the boot process that makes litetalk 
synthesizers unable to speak even when no attempt is made to access the 
synthesizer on boot up.  Because after doing a boot up by just hitting the 
enter key a couple times echo statements directed to ttyS0 and ttyS1 
produced silence and the litetalk said it was ready before booting the 
machine.  Also in sighted boot up state, modprobe speakup-synth=ltlk and 
modprobe speakup-synth=ltlk speakup-ser=0 and modprobe speakup-synth=ltlk 
speakup-ser=1 statements all failed to contact the synthesizer as did 
replacing the dash characters first with underscores and then replacing 
the underscore characters by periods in those commands.

What makes this worse is that earlier I offered to donate a doubletalk 
litetalk synthesizer to slackware and pay for the shipping so slackware 
could do some real accessibility testing with at least one synthesizer.  I 
did not mention what I paid for that synthesizer either.  Slackware 
aggressively refused my offer.  How slackware does its accessibility 
testing is that they put a monitor on a serial port that shows serial 
traffic.  Then they boot up using the booting parameters for speakup they 
put in their documentation and watch to see if any traffic goes out that 
serial port.  If traffic goes out, their accessibility test has passed.  
With the current situation, slackware is unable to prove signals adverse 
to accessibility do not go out over the serial ports to synthesizers since 
they have no synthesizer on which to actually hear what does or does not 
happen and are not interested in correcting that deficiency.



jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net> Twitter: @jdashiel

Re: finished with slackware

[Cleverson Casarin Uliana]

Dear Jude,

I am considering the Crux distribution, whose phylosophy is quite close 
to Slackware. Its CD image is inaccessible as well, but it is probably 
possible to install it from within another distro. See the following 
thread I started on their mailing list, I have not yet tried the 
described process but it theoretically should work...
http://lists.crux.nu/pipermail/crux/2014-October/004021.html

Greetings,
Cleverson

Em 01/11/2014 07:27, Jude DaShiell escreveu:
> 14.1 was the killer.  Nothing I did documented or otherwise got any speech
> out of that version of slackware so the disks have been trashed.  I'll not
> buy any future version of the distribution either since by the time the
> disks arrive invariably one or more of them get broken by the shipping
> process.  Slackware is too thrifty to have bubble wrap insulating their
> jewel cases in those cardboard boxes they use for shipping and I have
> complained about this repeatedly to slackware too.  So far as I'm
> concerned, the distribution is inaccessible for installation or use.  I
> suspect further something happens in the boot process that makes litetalk
> synthesizers unable to speak even when no attempt is made to access the
> synthesizer on boot up.  Because after doing a boot up by just hitting the
> enter key a couple times echo statements directed to ttyS0 and ttyS1
> produced silence and the litetalk said it was ready before booting the
> machine.  Also in sighted boot up state, modprobe speakup-synth=ltlk and
> modprobe speakup-synth=ltlk speakup-ser=0 and modprobe speakup-synth=ltlk
> speakup-ser=1 statements all failed to contact the synthesizer as did
> replacing the dash characters first with underscores and then replacing
> the underscore characters by periods in those commands.
>
> What makes this worse is that earlier I offered to donate a doubletalk
> litetalk synthesizer to slackware and pay for the shipping so slackware
> could do some real accessibility testing with at least one synthesizer.  I
> did not mention what I paid for that synthesizer either.  Slackware
> aggressively refused my offer.  How slackware does its accessibility
> testing is that they put a monitor on a serial port that shows serial
> traffic.  Then they boot up using the booting parameters for speakup they
> put in their documentation and watch to see if any traffic goes out that
> serial port.  If traffic goes out, their accessibility test has passed.
> With the current situation, slackware is unable to prove signals adverse
> to accessibility do not go out over the serial ports to synthesizers since
> they have no synthesizer on which to actually hear what does or does not
> happen and are not interested in correcting that deficiency.
>
>
>
> jude<jdashiel@shellworld.net>  Twitter: @jdashiel
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: finished with slackware

[Glenn / Lenny]

Jude,
Why do you not burn your own disks?
Glenn
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jude DaShiell" <jdashiel@shellworld.net>
To: <speakup@linux-speakup.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2014 4:27 AM
Subject: finished with slackware


14.1 was the killer.  Nothing I did documented or otherwise got any speech 
out of that version of slackware so the disks have been trashed.  I'll not 
buy any future version of the distribution either since by the time the 
disks arrive invariably one or more of them get broken by the shipping 
process.  Slackware is too thrifty to have bubble wrap insulating their 
jewel cases in those cardboard boxes they use for shipping and I have 
complained about this repeatedly to slackware too.  So far as I'm 
concerned, the distribution is inaccessible for installation or use.  I 
suspect further something happens in the boot process that makes litetalk 
synthesizers unable to speak even when no attempt is made to access the 
synthesizer on boot up.  Because after doing a boot up by just hitting the 
enter key a couple times echo statements directed to ttyS0 and ttyS1 
produced silence and the litetalk said it was ready before booting the 
machine.  Also in sighted boot up state, modprobe speakup-synth=ltlk and 
modprobe speakup-synth=ltlk speakup-ser=0 and modprobe speakup-synth=ltlk 
speakup-ser=1 statements all failed to contact the synthesizer as did 
replacing the dash characters first with underscores and then replacing 
the underscore characters by periods in those commands.

What makes this worse is that earlier I offered to donate a doubletalk 
litetalk synthesizer to slackware and pay for the shipping so slackware 
could do some real accessibility testing with at least one synthesizer.  I 
did not mention what I paid for that synthesizer either.  Slackware 
aggressively refused my offer.  How slackware does its accessibility 
testing is that they put a monitor on a serial port that shows serial 
traffic.  Then they boot up using the booting parameters for speakup they 
put in their documentation and watch to see if any traffic goes out that 
serial port.  If traffic goes out, their accessibility test has passed.  
With the current situation, slackware is unable to prove signals adverse 
to accessibility do not go out over the serial ports to synthesizers since 
they have no synthesizer on which to actually hear what does or does not 
happen and are not interested in correcting that deficiency.



jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net> Twitter: @jdashiel

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@linux-speakup.org
http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup

finished with slackware

[Jude DaShiell]

Tony,

How long did you wait from when the dvd started spinning until you did 
your typing?
Also, the slackware-howto file is inaccurate since it left:
speakup.s speakup.synth=ltlk in that file.  I was trying to get it to come 
up with hugesmp.s with and without speakup.s in the boot parameters 
earlier but never could figure out the wait time.



jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net> Twitter: @jdashiel

Re: finished with slackware

[tony seth]

I don't think I had to wait that long, just a few seconds probably no 
more then five. I've only tried it on that one machine, and dells seem 
to be pretty happy with whatever I throw at them. I never even looked 
at the howto, just did it from memory of earlier versions.
Take care...
Cheereo!

finished with slackware

[Jude DaShiell]

I have an amd athelon k8 northbridge processor dual core machine with 
1,000MB of memory on it and a litetalk synthesizer attached to its only 
serial port and keying in boot parameters almost as soon as starting the 
machine also fails on this hardware.  I can't do anything with slackware 
on the laptops I have since if those have serial ports, those ports have 9 
holes rather than 9 pins and the litetalk synthesizers do not come with 
dual serial plugs one with holes and the other with pins and I don't have 
the necessary cable to bend the gender.  When I moved out of Maryland I 
left too much technology there by other people's choices and where I'm at 
now I may be able to shop for technology once in a five year period of 
time.  Slackware needs to start emulating debian by making a boot beep 
happen at the boot prompt on their installation disks otherwise whatever 
other hardware I get in the future makes no sense to even consider that 
distribution.  The company is either unwilling or incapable of getting 
their subscription shipping problem straightened out too.



jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net> Twitter: @jdashiel

Re: finished with slackware

[Mike Ray]

Jude,

The ports on the backs of your laptops that feel like female DB9 sockets
are probably VGA ports rather than female RS232.  I have never known a
device other than a MODEM or MODEM-like device, such as an external
hardware synth like the Apollo to have a female DB9 on it.

I have a Dell D630 laptop.  This is a 64 bit machine and is built very
ruggedly and it has an RS232 port.  They are still available as refurbs
and I recommend them as Linux workhorses.

Mike

On 04/11/2014 11:00, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> I have an amd athelon k8 northbridge processor dual core machine with 
> 1,000MB of memory on it and a litetalk synthesizer attached to its only 
> serial port and keying in boot parameters almost as soon as starting the 
> machine also fails on this hardware.  I can't do anything with slackware 
> on the laptops I have since if those have serial ports, those ports have 9 
> holes rather than 9 pins and the litetalk synthesizers do not come with 
> dual serial plugs one with holes and the other with pins and I don't have 
> the necessary cable to bend the gender.  When I moved out of Maryland I 
> left too much technology there by other people's choices and where I'm at 
> now I may be able to shop for technology once in a five year period of 
> time.  Slackware needs to start emulating debian by making a boot beep 
> happen at the boot prompt on their installation disks otherwise whatever 
> other hardware I get in the future makes no sense to even consider that 
> distribution.  The company is either unwilling or incapable of getting 
> their subscription shipping problem straightened out too.
> 
> 
> 
> jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net> Twitter: @jdashiel
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 


-- 
Michael A. Ray
Analyst/Programmer
Witley, Surrey, South-east UK

The box said: 'install Windows XP, 7 or better'. So I installed Linux

Interested in accessibility on the Raspberry Pi?
Visit: http://www.raspberryvi.org/
>From where you can join our mailing list for visually-impaired Pi hackers

Re: finished with slackware

[Gregory Nowak]

On Tue, Nov 04, 2014 at 03:23:07PM +0000, Mike Ray wrote:
> Jude,
> 
> The ports on the backs of your laptops that feel like female DB9 sockets
> are probably VGA ports rather than female RS232.

They also have 15 holes, not nine.

Greg

-- 
web site: http://www.gregn.net
gpg public key: http://www.gregn.net/pubkey.asc
skype: gregn1
(authorization required, add me to your contacts list first)
If we haven't been in touch before, e-mail me before adding me to your contacts.

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Re: finished with slackware

[John G Heim]

Are you trying to install slackware or is it already installed? I 
suspect the slackware installer has a kernel that does not contain the 
patch that letsspeakup talk to a litetalk.  Once you getslackware 
installed, you could probably ssh to the machine, download and patch the 
kernel source code, and recompile the kernel. But I'd be surprised if a 
litetalk would work with the installer for any distro out there. Maybe 
vinux or sonar.

If I was really desperate to use slackware, I'd probably try booting 
from a live slackware ISO and enable ssh. Then I'd ssh to the machine 
and do a manual install. I don't know about slackware but debian has a 
program called debbootstrap that installs all necessary packages except 
a kernel. So you have to partition the disk, run debbootstrap, install a 
kernel and reboot. If there is something like debbootstrap for 
slackware, it might not be too difficult.

I recently switched to vinux and have been pretty happy. But I used to 
be a debian user so the transition to vinux wasn't too difficult.



On 11/04/2014 05:00 AM, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> I have an amd athelon k8 northbridge processor dual core machine with
> 1,000MB of memory on it and a litetalk synthesizer attached to its only
> serial port and keying in boot parameters almost as soon as starting the
> machine also fails on this hardware.  I can't do anything with slackware
> on the laptops I have since if those have serial ports, those ports have 9
> holes rather than 9 pins and the litetalk synthesizers do not come with
> dual serial plugs one with holes and the other with pins and I don't have
> the necessary cable to bend the gender.  When I moved out of Maryland I
> left too much technology there by other people's choices and where I'm at
> now I may be able to shop for technology once in a five year period of
> time.  Slackware needs to start emulating debian by making a boot beep
> happen at the boot prompt on their installation disks otherwise whatever
> other hardware I get in the future makes no sense to even consider that
> distribution.  The company is either unwilling or incapable of getting
> their subscription shipping problem straightened out too.
>
>
>
> jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net> Twitter: @jdashiel
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: finished with slackware

[Martin G. McCormick]

Gregory Nowak writes:
> On Tue, Nov 04, 2014 at 03:23:07PM +0000, Mike Ray wrote:
> > Jude,
> >
> > The ports on the backs of your laptops that feel like female DB9 sockets
> > are probably VGA ports rather than female RS232.
> 
> They also have 15 holes, not nine.

	Yes. If you jently run a fingernail down the cmiddle of
the connector you can feel 3 rows of holes if they are VGA.

Martin

re: finished with slackware

[Jude DaShiell]

I was trying to install a current version of slackware using the litetalk 
synthesizer earlier.  Given slackware's installer kernel is broken, I got 
some remote sighted assistance and was told wait 30 seconds then key in 
boot parameters and that fails persistently insofaras getting speech up.  
So apparently slackware and Fedora have something in common.  In both 
cases an installer interested in doing an accessible installation needs to 
find and download an earlier version of the operating systems that did 
install accessibly and use that version to install then upgrade through 
the versions to get to current versions.  Moonshine on Fedora worked on 
intel machines in the past and if my memory is correct, maybe slackware 
11.2 ought to be able to get it done in this case.  What I will do now is 
take a stab at getting slackware 11.2 to speak and if that fails as time 
and my download quotas permit will try other versions in the future.  This 
is now a low priority back burner project.  I was surprised the 
distribution got broken in this way.



jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net> Twitter: @JudeDaShiell

Re: finished with slackware

[Steve Holmes]

I hate hearing stuff like this; we have made so much progress over the
years in making Linux accessible and then these things start coming
up. When you can't even boot a basic system with current versions of
installer and kernel, then there is something seriously wrong!

I grew up on Slackware clear back in 1994 or so. I then had to login
from a different computer running a terminal emulator but that was a
start.

As for me, I like Arch Linux and there is a current talking image
available. I thought Fedora was currently accessible; no?

On Fri, Feb 06, 2015 at 08:37:32PM -0500, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> I was trying to install a current version of slackware using the litetalk 
> synthesizer earlier.  Given slackware's installer kernel is broken, I got 
> some remote sighted assistance and was told wait 30 seconds then key in 
> boot parameters and that fails persistently insofaras getting speech up.  
> So apparently slackware and Fedora have something in common.  In both 
> cases an installer interested in doing an accessible installation needs to 
> find and download an earlier version of the operating systems that did 
> install accessibly and use that version to install then upgrade through 
> the versions to get to current versions.  Moonshine on Fedora worked on 
> intel machines in the past and if my memory is correct, maybe slackware 
> 11.2 ought to be able to get it done in this case.  What I will do now is 
> take a stab at getting slackware 11.2 to speak and if that fails as time 
> and my download quotas permit will try other versions in the future.  This 
> is now a low priority back burner project.  I was surprised the 
> distribution got broken in this way.
> 
> 
> 
> jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net> Twitter: @JudeDaShiell
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: finished with slackware

[Mike Ray]

I agree with this sentiment.  Unfortunately none of us can do anything
when developers make an active choice not to pursue accessibility matters.

Yes Fedora is accessible and can be installed with no sight although
it's not very easy.

This is not an exhaustive list but in my experience the following
distros are installable by me, with absolutely no sight, out-of-the-box:

* Debian
* Trisquel
* Talking Arch
* Talking Parabola Libre (based on talking Arch)
* Vinux (losing the plot)
* Ubuntu, with particular reference to Ubuntu Mate alpha

There are others and the above is not in any particular order although I
have to say Trisquel is my current favourite.  The live CD starts to
talk if you just leave the keyboard alone for a couple of minutes.

Now, name and shame, there was a recent post to the Orca list in which
somebody said they had spoken to a developer from Linux Mint who
declared they had no interest in accessibility, and presumably had no
intention of bothering with it.

Slackware seems similarly afflicted, although read on...

I have 2 Dell Latitude D630 laptops and a Dolphin Apollo hardware synth.

One D630 successfully boots the latest 64-bit Slackware when I type:

speakup.s speakup.synth=apollo

At the boot prompt, the other does not.  BIOS settings on both are
correct for the serial port to work.

This email now encourages me to try an earlier Slackware because I did
not know there was a problem with recent versions.

Docs on the disk seem to suggest the huge.s kernel now also has speakup
in it and the speakup.s kernel, and presumably the boot params lead to
the huge kernel anyway.

Mike


On 07/02/2015 08:52, Steve Holmes wrote:
> I hate hearing stuff like this; we have made so much progress over the
> years in making Linux accessible and then these things start coming
> up. When you can't even boot a basic system with current versions of
> installer and kernel, then there is something seriously wrong!
> 
> I grew up on Slackware clear back in 1994 or so. I then had to login
> from a different computer running a terminal emulator but that was a
> start.
> 
> As for me, I like Arch Linux and there is a current talking image
> available. I thought Fedora was currently accessible; no?
> 
> On Fri, Feb 06, 2015 at 08:37:32PM -0500, Jude DaShiell wrote:
>> I was trying to install a current version of slackware using the litetalk 
>> synthesizer earlier.  Given slackware's installer kernel is broken, I got 
>> some remote sighted assistance and was told wait 30 seconds then key in 
>> boot parameters and that fails persistently insofaras getting speech up.  
>> So apparently slackware and Fedora have something in common.  In both 
>> cases an installer interested in doing an accessible installation needs to 
>> find and download an earlier version of the operating systems that did 
>> install accessibly and use that version to install then upgrade through 
>> the versions to get to current versions.  Moonshine on Fedora worked on 
>> intel machines in the past and if my memory is correct, maybe slackware 
>> 11.2 ought to be able to get it done in this case.  What I will do now is 
>> take a stab at getting slackware 11.2 to speak and if that fails as time 
>> and my download quotas permit will try other versions in the future.  This 
>> is now a low priority back burner project.  I was surprised the 
>> distribution got broken in this way.
>>
>>
>>
>> jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net> Twitter: @JudeDaShiell
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
>> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 


-- 
Michael A. Ray
Analyst/Programmer
Witley, Surrey, South-east UK

Don't judge my disability until you witness my ability

Interested in accessibility on the Raspberry Pi?
Visit: http://www.raspberryvi.org/
>From where you can join our mailing list for visually-impaired Pi hackers

Re: finished with slackware

[Glenn / Lenny]

You know, I use Ubuntu, and I have become disenchanted with Linux.  With 
every new release, we have to rebuild accessibility.
Sure it is free, and it is safer and more powerful than Windows, but Windows 
is still more accessible than Linux.
I had big hopes for Linux, and I have reached a point now where it is just a 
tool in the toolbox, mainly for drive manipulation.

Glenn
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Holmes" <steve@holmesgrown.com>
To: <speakup@linux-speakup.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2015 2:52 AM
Subject: Re: finished with slackware


I hate hearing stuff like this; we have made so much progress over the
years in making Linux accessible and then these things start coming
up. When you can't even boot a basic system with current versions of
installer and kernel, then there is something seriously wrong!

I grew up on Slackware clear back in 1994 or so. I then had to login
from a different computer running a terminal emulator but that was a
start.

As for me, I like Arch Linux and there is a current talking image
available. I thought Fedora was currently accessible; no?

On Fri, Feb 06, 2015 at 08:37:32PM -0500, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> I was trying to install a current version of slackware using the litetalk
> synthesizer earlier.  Given slackware's installer kernel is broken, I got
> some remote sighted assistance and was told wait 30 seconds then key in
> boot parameters and that fails persistently insofaras getting speech up.
> So apparently slackware and Fedora have something in common.  In both
> cases an installer interested in doing an accessible installation needs to
> find and download an earlier version of the operating systems that did
> install accessibly and use that version to install then upgrade through
> the versions to get to current versions.  Moonshine on Fedora worked on
> intel machines in the past and if my memory is correct, maybe slackware
> 11.2 ought to be able to get it done in this case.  What I will do now is
> take a stab at getting slackware 11.2 to speak and if that fails as time
> and my download quotas permit will try other versions in the future.  This
> is now a low priority back burner project.  I was surprised the
> distribution got broken in this way.
>
>
>
> jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net> Twitter: @JudeDaShiell
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@linux-speakup.org
http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: finished with slackware

[John G. Heim]

I wouldn't go quite that far. I will agree though that the accessibility 
tools in linux have gotten worse in the last 5 years, not better. This 
is a disturbing trend. I think things began to fall apart when Oracle 
bought Sun and got rid of the orca development team.

What we should really do is to put together a group to collect grants to 
pay for orca development.  We could include speakup development but I 
think a single dedicated developer could probably rewrite speakup from 
scratch in about 6 months. It's a small project compared to the 
continuing development that orca represents.

I'll talk to IAVIT's lawyer about it.



On 02/07/2015 08:43 AM, Glenn / Lenny wrote:
> You know, I use Ubuntu, and I have become disenchanted with Linux.  With
> every new release, we have to rebuild accessibility.
> Sure it is free, and it is safer and more powerful than Windows, but Windows
> is still more accessible than Linux.
> I had big hopes for Linux, and I have reached a point now where it is just a
> tool in the toolbox, mainly for drive manipulation.
>
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Holmes" <steve@holmesgrown.com>
> To: <speakup@linux-speakup.org>
> Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2015 2:52 AM
> Subject: Re: finished with slackware
>
>
> I hate hearing stuff like this; we have made so much progress over the
> years in making Linux accessible and then these things start coming
> up. When you can't even boot a basic system with current versions of
> installer and kernel, then there is something seriously wrong!
>
> I grew up on Slackware clear back in 1994 or so. I then had to login
> from a different computer running a terminal emulator but that was a
> start.
>
> As for me, I like Arch Linux and there is a current talking image
> available. I thought Fedora was currently accessible; no?
>
> On Fri, Feb 06, 2015 at 08:37:32PM -0500, Jude DaShiell wrote:
>> I was trying to install a current version of slackware using the litetalk
>> synthesizer earlier.  Given slackware's installer kernel is broken, I got
>> some remote sighted assistance and was told wait 30 seconds then key in
>> boot parameters and that fails persistently insofaras getting speech up.
>> So apparently slackware and Fedora have something in common.  In both
>> cases an installer interested in doing an accessible installation needs to
>> find and download an earlier version of the operating systems that did
>> install accessibly and use that version to install then upgrade through
>> the versions to get to current versions.  Moonshine on Fedora worked on
>> intel machines in the past and if my memory is correct, maybe slackware
>> 11.2 ought to be able to get it done in this case.  What I will do now is
>> take a stab at getting slackware 11.2 to speak and if that fails as time
>> and my download quotas permit will try other versions in the future.  This
>> is now a low priority back burner project.  I was surprised the
>> distribution got broken in this way.
>>
>>
>>
>> jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net> Twitter: @JudeDaShiell
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
>> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: finished with slackware

[Mike Ray]

Slackware is, as far as I know, the only distro which has, seemingly ALL
the speakup synth 'modules' compiled into the kernel, e.g. not as
external modules.

I think the above is historical, but is also coincidentally an advantage
to us, as for those of us with hardware synths, it makes it possible to
boot and install, assuming it is working right.

Speakup re-written in 6 months?  Why is there a need to re-write it?
The only reason I can think of is the now almost universal lack of
serial ports on computers and the current inability of speakup to use
USB for hardware synths.  I don't know if it is even possible to use USB
with a kernel module.  And I don't know whether USB or USB hardware
synths use or support hardware hand-shaking.

There has been talk of the tty being removed from the kernel, at which
time speakup will, presumably, become unusable at all.

The see-saw nature of accessibility in modern Linux is a downside to
diversity.  There is a lot to choose from, which means there are also a
lot of failure points.  There are a lot of developers who, being able to
see perfectly well, give little thought to accessibility.  Projects
change hands, developers move on, and a project which had good
accessibility can suddenly stop working for us simply because of a
developer change.

Orca certainly needs more financial support.  If God forbid, anything
happened to take Joanie away from Orca development, we would be in
crisis.  But that is not an uncommon situation in OSS.

I think installers are getting better.  So much so that VI-specific
distros like Vinux and Sonar are now almost irrelevant.  IMHO their only
advantage is ootb package tweaking.  A lot of inaccessible packages are
not included by default like they are in mainstream distros, where we
have to fiddle about cherry-picking what we can and cannot use.

Back to speakup specifically for a moment...IMHO what is really needed
is for the source to be brought up to kernel standards to get it out of
staging, and for the web site to be refreshed.  The web site looks and
feels stale and untouched.  Leading some sighted folks to believe
speakup is dead and irrelevant, which it is definitely not.

Mike


On 07/02/2015 15:55, John G. Heim wrote:
> I wouldn't go quite that far. I will agree though that the accessibility
> tools in linux have gotten worse in the last 5 years, not better. This
> is a disturbing trend. I think things began to fall apart when Oracle
> bought Sun and got rid of the orca development team.
> 
> What we should really do is to put together a group to collect grants to
> pay for orca development.  We could include speakup development but I
> think a single dedicated developer could probably rewrite speakup from
> scratch in about 6 months. It's a small project compared to the
> continuing development that orca represents.
> 
> I'll talk to IAVIT's lawyer about it.
> 
> 
> 
> On 02/07/2015 08:43 AM, Glenn / Lenny wrote:
>> You know, I use Ubuntu, and I have become disenchanted with Linux.  With
>> every new release, we have to rebuild accessibility.
>> Sure it is free, and it is safer and more powerful than Windows, but
>> Windows
>> is still more accessible than Linux.
>> I had big hopes for Linux, and I have reached a point now where it is
>> just a
>> tool in the toolbox, mainly for drive manipulation.
>>
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Steve Holmes" <steve@holmesgrown.com>
>> To: <speakup@linux-speakup.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2015 2:52 AM
>> Subject: Re: finished with slackware
>>
>>
>> I hate hearing stuff like this; we have made so much progress over the
>> years in making Linux accessible and then these things start coming
>> up. When you can't even boot a basic system with current versions of
>> installer and kernel, then there is something seriously wrong!
>>
>> I grew up on Slackware clear back in 1994 or so. I then had to login
>> from a different computer running a terminal emulator but that was a
>> start.
>>
>> As for me, I like Arch Linux and there is a current talking image
>> available. I thought Fedora was currently accessible; no?
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 06, 2015 at 08:37:32PM -0500, Jude DaShiell wrote:
>>> I was trying to install a current version of slackware using the
>>> litetalk
>>> synthesizer earlier.  Given slackware's installer kernel is broken, I
>>> got
>>> some remote sighted assistance and was told wait 30 seconds then key in
>>> boot parameters and that fails persistently insofaras getting speech up.
>>> So apparently slackware and Fedora have something in common.  In both
>>> cases an installer interested in doing an accessible installation
>>> needs to
>>> find and download an earlier version of the operating systems that did
>>> install accessibly and use that version to install then upgrade through
>>> the versions to get to current versions.  Moonshine on Fedora worked on
>>> intel machines in the past and if my memory is correct, maybe slackware
>>> 11.2 ought to be able to get it done in this case.  What I will do
>>> now is
>>> take a stab at getting slackware 11.2 to speak and if that fails as time
>>> and my download quotas permit will try other versions in the future. 
>>> This
>>> is now a low priority back burner project.  I was surprised the
>>> distribution got broken in this way.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net> Twitter: @JudeDaShiell
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
>>> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
>> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
>> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup


-- 
Michael A. Ray
Analyst/Programmer
Witley, Surrey, South-east UK

Don't judge my disability until you witness my ability

Interested in accessibility on the Raspberry Pi?
Visit: http://www.raspberryvi.org/
>From where you can join our mailing list for visually-impaired Pi hackers

Re: finished with slackware

[John G. Heim]

Well, the USB thing is reason enough to rewrite speakup. But another 
reason is that it's stuck in the staging area because the code is not up 
to the standards set by the kernel developers.

That 6-month thing is totally a wild-ass guess. At one time, I could 
write a kernel module in a week. That was 20 years ago though and I'll 
admit I neither remember how to do it nor can I understand the kernel 
code currently. It can't be *that* much harder though than it used to 
be.  Of course, there is a lot more to speakup than the synth driver 
modules. But I'm figuring a lot of the code could be re-used. I mean, 
you don't have to redesign the user interface.


On 02/07/2015 11:57 AM, Mike Ray wrote:
>
> Slackware is, as far as I know, the only distro which has, seemingly ALL
> the speakup synth 'modules' compiled into the kernel, e.g. not as
> external modules.
>
> I think the above is historical, but is also coincidentally an advantage
> to us, as for those of us with hardware synths, it makes it possible to
> boot and install, assuming it is working right.
>
> Speakup re-written in 6 months?  Why is there a need to re-write it?
> The only reason I can think of is the now almost universal lack of
> serial ports on computers and the current inability of speakup to use
> USB for hardware synths.  I don't know if it is even possible to use USB
> with a kernel module.  And I don't know whether USB or USB hardware
> synths use or support hardware hand-shaking.
>
> There has been talk of the tty being removed from the kernel, at which
> time speakup will, presumably, become unusable at all.
>
> The see-saw nature of accessibility in modern Linux is a downside to
> diversity.  There is a lot to choose from, which means there are also a
> lot of failure points.  There are a lot of developers who, being able to
> see perfectly well, give little thought to accessibility.  Projects
> change hands, developers move on, and a project which had good
> accessibility can suddenly stop working for us simply because of a
> developer change.
>
> Orca certainly needs more financial support.  If God forbid, anything
> happened to take Joanie away from Orca development, we would be in
> crisis.  But that is not an uncommon situation in OSS.
>
> I think installers are getting better.  So much so that VI-specific
> distros like Vinux and Sonar are now almost irrelevant.  IMHO their only
> advantage is ootb package tweaking.  A lot of inaccessible packages are
> not included by default like they are in mainstream distros, where we
> have to fiddle about cherry-picking what we can and cannot use.
>
> Back to speakup specifically for a moment...IMHO what is really needed
> is for the source to be brought up to kernel standards to get it out of
> staging, and for the web site to be refreshed.  The web site looks and
> feels stale and untouched.  Leading some sighted folks to believe
> speakup is dead and irrelevant, which it is definitely not.
>
> Mike
>
>
> On 07/02/2015 15:55, John G. Heim wrote:
>> I wouldn't go quite that far. I will agree though that the accessibility
>> tools in linux have gotten worse in the last 5 years, not better. This
>> is a disturbing trend. I think things began to fall apart when Oracle
>> bought Sun and got rid of the orca development team.
>>
>> What we should really do is to put together a group to collect grants to
>> pay for orca development.  We could include speakup development but I
>> think a single dedicated developer could probably rewrite speakup from
>> scratch in about 6 months. It's a small project compared to the
>> continuing development that orca represents.
>>
>> I'll talk to IAVIT's lawyer about it.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 02/07/2015 08:43 AM, Glenn / Lenny wrote:
>>> You know, I use Ubuntu, and I have become disenchanted with Linux.  With
>>> every new release, we have to rebuild accessibility.
>>> Sure it is free, and it is safer and more powerful than Windows, but
>>> Windows
>>> is still more accessible than Linux.
>>> I had big hopes for Linux, and I have reached a point now where it is
>>> just a
>>> tool in the toolbox, mainly for drive manipulation.
>>>
>>> Glenn
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Steve Holmes" <steve@holmesgrown.com>
>>> To: <speakup@linux-speakup.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2015 2:52 AM
>>> Subject: Re: finished with slackware
>>>
>>>
>>> I hate hearing stuff like this; we have made so much progress over the
>>> years in making Linux accessible and then these things start coming
>>> up. When you can't even boot a basic system with current versions of
>>> installer and kernel, then there is something seriously wrong!
>>>
>>> I grew up on Slackware clear back in 1994 or so. I then had to login
>>> from a different computer running a terminal emulator but that was a
>>> start.
>>>
>>> As for me, I like Arch Linux and there is a current talking image
>>> available. I thought Fedora was currently accessible; no?
>>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 06, 2015 at 08:37:32PM -0500, Jude DaShiell wrote:
>>>> I was trying to install a current version of slackware using the
>>>> litetalk
>>>> synthesizer earlier.  Given slackware's installer kernel is broken, I
>>>> got
>>>> some remote sighted assistance and was told wait 30 seconds then key in
>>>> boot parameters and that fails persistently insofaras getting speech up.
>>>> So apparently slackware and Fedora have something in common.  In both
>>>> cases an installer interested in doing an accessible installation
>>>> needs to
>>>> find and download an earlier version of the operating systems that did
>>>> install accessibly and use that version to install then upgrade through
>>>> the versions to get to current versions.  Moonshine on Fedora worked on
>>>> intel machines in the past and if my memory is correct, maybe slackware
>>>> 11.2 ought to be able to get it done in this case.  What I will do
>>>> now is
>>>> take a stab at getting slackware 11.2 to speak and if that fails as time
>>>> and my download quotas permit will try other versions in the future.
>>>> This
>>>> is now a low priority back burner project.  I was surprised the
>>>> distribution got broken in this way.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net> Twitter: @JudeDaShiell
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Speakup mailing list
>>>> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
>>>> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
>>> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
>>> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
>> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: finished with slackware

[Jason White]

John G. Heim <jheim@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
> I wouldn't go quite that far. I will agree though that the accessibility
> tools in linux have gotten worse in the last 5 years, not better. This is a
> disturbing trend. I think things began to fall apart when Oracle bought Sun
> and got rid of the orca development team.

Having observed this entire history, I think the GNOME 2 to GNOME 3 transition
was initially disastrous for accessibility, in part as a result of the
necessary move to the DBus-based version of AT-SPI 2.

Since the release of GNOME 3, the advances that were lost have been largely,
if not entirely, regained.

Of course, if there were more resources devoted to this effort, the software
would be much better than it is now. The departure of IBM and Sun from the
scene and the lack of uptake by commercial Linux distributors (who stand to
benefit from accessibility, including regulatory compliance in countries that
represent important markets for their products and services) have undoubtedly
slowed progress considerably.

The Linux console and command line environment remains as accessible as ever.
Some of the newer tools (NetworkManager, PulseAudio) have comprehensive
command line and terminal-oriented interfaces. Systemd and its associated
tools are also well supported at the shell prompt. It seems then that
developers are looking after the command line environment (and to a lesser
degree terminal-based applications), which are superior under Linux than under
competing systems.

Others, who have different needs, may well disagree with this appraisal.

Re: finished with slackware

[John G. Heim]

The trend has been to enable software speech in talking installers.  I 
think it is going to be a long time before you will be able to do an 
install with a hardware synth in any distro. That may never work again.



On 02/07/2015 02:52 AM, Steve Holmes wrote:
> I hate hearing stuff like this; we have made so much progress over the
> years in making Linux accessible and then these things start coming
> up. When you can't even boot a basic system with current versions of
> installer and kernel, then there is something seriously wrong!
>
> I grew up on Slackware clear back in 1994 or so. I then had to login
> from a different computer running a terminal emulator but that was a
> start.
>
> As for me, I like Arch Linux and there is a current talking image
> available. I thought Fedora was currently accessible; no?
>
> On Fri, Feb 06, 2015 at 08:37:32PM -0500, Jude DaShiell wrote:
>> I was trying to install a current version of slackware using the litetalk
>> synthesizer earlier.  Given slackware's installer kernel is broken, I got
>> some remote sighted assistance and was told wait 30 seconds then key in
>> boot parameters and that fails persistently insofaras getting speech up.
>> So apparently slackware and Fedora have something in common.  In both
>> cases an installer interested in doing an accessible installation needs to
>> find and download an earlier version of the operating systems that did
>> install accessibly and use that version to install then upgrade through
>> the versions to get to current versions.  Moonshine on Fedora worked on
>> intel machines in the past and if my memory is correct, maybe slackware
>> 11.2 ought to be able to get it done in this case.  What I will do now is
>> take a stab at getting slackware 11.2 to speak and if that fails as time
>> and my download quotas permit will try other versions in the future.  This
>> is now a low priority back burner project.  I was surprised the
>> distribution got broken in this way.
>>
>>
>>
>> jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net> Twitter: @JudeDaShiell
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
>> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: finished with slackware

[John G. Heim]

It doesn't matter what distro you use, it's in the linux kernel. You 
have to patch the kernel code to make speakup work with many hardware 
synths including the litetalk.

I wrote instructions for building a patched debian kernel. I know these 
instructions don't directly apply to you but maybe you can use them to 
patch the code for your kernel. The key is to comment out one line in a 
source code module in the speakup code:

http://www.iavit.org/~john/debian/build.html




On 02/06/2015 07:37 PM, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> I was trying to install a current version of slackware using the litetalk
> synthesizer earlier.  Given slackware's installer kernel is broken, I got
> some remote sighted assistance and was told wait 30 seconds then key in
> boot parameters and that fails persistently insofaras getting speech up.
> So apparently slackware and Fedora have something in common.  In both
> cases an installer interested in doing an accessible installation needs to
> find and download an earlier version of the operating systems that did
> install accessibly and use that version to install then upgrade through
> the versions to get to current versions.  Moonshine on Fedora worked on
> intel machines in the past and if my memory is correct, maybe slackware
> 11.2 ought to be able to get it done in this case.  What I will do now is
> take a stab at getting slackware 11.2 to speak and if that fails as time
> and my download quotas permit will try other versions in the future.  This
> is now a low priority back burner project.  I was surprised the
> distribution got broken in this way.
>
>
>
> jude <jdashiel@shellworld.net> Twitter: @JudeDaShiell
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>