Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16

Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16

[Janina Sajka]

Mike Pedersen writes:
> We have been informed, however, that there can be only one screen
> reader/magnifier in the GNOME desktop.
> 
That's a rather outrageous attitude. Who made that decision?

Are they also prepared to have only one web browser? ONly one media
player? ONly one word processor? Only one email client application?

The day may come when there is but one screen reader on the GUI desktop,
but I rather doubt it given that both Gnome and KDE are likely to remain
with us. However, to proactively restrict inclusion while all manner of
other (sometimes only half-baked) applications are included rankles.

Frankly, it's an insult. This kind of grudging support for accessibility needs to be stopped
right now. In fact, it's a stretch to even call it "support."

Do these deciders  wonder that people in Massachusetts got so upset last
year over the simple move to an open file format. Given this kind of
attitude, they'll never change their minds

Always remember that just proclaiming, "we support accessibility,"
doesn't make it so. We will not judge by published proclamations but
rather by deeds.

-- 

Janina Sajka				Phone: +1.240.715.1272
Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC	http://CapitalAccessibility.Com

Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. and Canada--Go to http://ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more.

Chair, Accessibility Workgroup		Free Standards Group (FSG)
janina@freestandards.org		http://a11y.org

Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16

[Justin Ekis]

On Sat, Jun 10, 2006 at 12:21:54PM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> Are they also prepared to have only one web browser? ONly one media
> player? ONly one word processor? Only one email client application?
If I understand correctly, they are talking about inclusion in the 
official gnome.org desktop release. and that is exactly the situation. 
epiphany is the web browser, totem is the media player, gedit is the 
word processor and evolution is the email application. 
Look at ftp.gnome.org/pub/GNOME/desktop/2.14/2.14.2/sources

> The day may come when there is but one screen reader on the GUI desktop,
> but I rather doubt it given that both Gnome and KDE are likely to remain
> with us. However, to proactively restrict inclusion while all manner of
> other (sometimes only half-baked) applications are included rankles.
They said the GNOME desktop. The GNOME desktop release seems to have 
exactly one of everything and I doubt any of it is half baked. If it's 
not in that directory it's not included in the official desktop.

> Frankly, it's an insult. This kind of grudging support for accessibility needs to be stopped
> right now. In fact, it's a stretch to even call it "support."
>From my reading of the mailing lists, the new version of yelp was
held out of  at least one and I think two desktop releases because it 
had accessibility regressions. That sounds like support to me.

Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16

[Janina Sajka]

OK. My misunderstanding, so my apologies. I not sure I agree with only
one of each category as a policy, but that certainly isn't a
discriminatory policy, so it's a very different matter.

Holding back yelp over a11y is certainly a good indicator, as well. But,
we can't extrapolate from that that the entire desktop is vetted for
a11y. Certainly not epiphany or abi-word, right? That rather makes me
wonder what the basis of this "only one of a kind" policy is. However,
it's clear my sense of injustice was unwarranted.

Janina



Justin Ekis writes:
> On Sat, Jun 10, 2006 at 12:21:54PM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > Are they also prepared to have only one web browser? ONly one media
> > player? ONly one word processor? Only one email client application?
> If I understand correctly, they are talking about inclusion in the 
> official gnome.org desktop release. and that is exactly the situation. 
> epiphany is the web browser, totem is the media player, gedit is the 
> word processor and evolution is the email application. 
> Look at ftp.gnome.org/pub/GNOME/desktop/2.14/2.14.2/sources
> 
> > The day may come when there is but one screen reader on the GUI desktop,
> > but I rather doubt it given that both Gnome and KDE are likely to remain
> > with us. However, to proactively restrict inclusion while all manner of
> > other (sometimes only half-baked) applications are included rankles.
> They said the GNOME desktop. The GNOME desktop release seems to have 
> exactly one of everything and I doubt any of it is half baked. If it's 
> not in that directory it's not included in the official desktop.
> 
> > Frankly, it's an insult. This kind of grudging support for accessibility needs to be stopped
> > right now. In fact, it's a stretch to even call it "support."
> >From my reading of the mailing lists, the new version of yelp was
> held out of  at least one and I think two desktop releases because it 
> had accessibility regressions. That sounds like support to me.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 

Janina Sajka				Phone: +1.240.715.1272
Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC	http://CapitalAccessibility.Com

Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. and Canada--Go to http://ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more.

Chair, Accessibility Workgroup		Free Standards Group (FSG)
janina@freestandards.org		http://a11y.org

RE: getting orca included in gnome 2.16

[Jim Grimsby JR.]

Hi well if there was real support for access then only accessible programs
would be included in the one of a kind.
Also accessibility would be enabled by default.  
Also orca would be the one screen reader at this time for orca from what I
understand and read supports more devices working as it does with emacs
servers as well as gnome speech.
Just my thoughts.

Jim Grimsby JR.
Msn: jim.grimsby@att.net
e-mail: jimgrims@pacbell.net
Skype: jim.grimsby


-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of Janina Sajka
Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2006 4:25 PM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16


OK. My misunderstanding, so my apologies. I not sure I agree with only one
of each category as a policy, but that certainly isn't a discriminatory
policy, so it's a very different matter.

Holding back yelp over a11y is certainly a good indicator, as well. But, we
can't extrapolate from that that the entire desktop is vetted for a11y.
Certainly not epiphany or abi-word, right? That rather makes me wonder what
the basis of this "only one of a kind" policy is. However, it's clear my
sense of injustice was unwarranted.

Janina



Justin Ekis writes:
> On Sat, Jun 10, 2006 at 12:21:54PM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > Are they also prepared to have only one web browser? ONly one media 
> > player? ONly one word processor? Only one email client application?
> If I understand correctly, they are talking about inclusion in the
> official gnome.org desktop release. and that is exactly the situation. 
> epiphany is the web browser, totem is the media player, gedit is the 
> word processor and evolution is the email application. 
> Look at ftp.gnome.org/pub/GNOME/desktop/2.14/2.14.2/sources
> 
> > The day may come when there is but one screen reader on the GUI 
> > desktop, but I rather doubt it given that both Gnome and KDE are 
> > likely to remain with us. However, to proactively restrict inclusion 
> > while all manner of other (sometimes only half-baked) applications 
> > are included rankles.
> They said the GNOME desktop. The GNOME desktop release seems to have
> exactly one of everything and I doubt any of it is half baked. If it's 
> not in that directory it's not included in the official desktop.
> 
> > Frankly, it's an insult. This kind of grudging support for 
> >accessibility needs to be stopped  right now. In fact, it's a stretch 
> >to even call it "support." From my reading of the mailing lists, the 
> >new version of yelp was
> held out of  at least one and I think two desktop releases because it
> had accessibility regressions. That sounds like support to me.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca 
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 

Janina Sajka				Phone: +1.240.715.1272
Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC	http://CapitalAccessibility.Com

Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. and
Canada--Go to http://ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more.

Chair, Accessibility Workgroup		Free Standards Group (FSG)
janina@freestandards.org		http://a11y.org

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Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16

[Janina Sajka]

Henrik Nilsen Omma writes:
> Janina Sajka wrote:
> >Mike Pedersen writes:
> >  
> >>We have been informed, however, that there can be only one screen
> >>reader/magnifier in the GNOME desktop.
> >>
> >>    
> >That's a rather outrageous attitude. Who made that decision?
> >
> >Are they also prepared to have only one web browser? ONly one media
> >player? ONly one word processor? Only one email client application?
> >  
> I think you may have misinterpreted this slightly. The idea is that 
> there will only be one official screen reader in Gnome, as there indeed 
> is only one email client (Evolution), one browser (Epiphany), one office 
> suite (gnome office, using abiword and gnumeric). Distributions can, and 
> do, change these defaults and users can install a whole range of options.
> 
So, it seems I have misunderstood the policy quite thoroughly. I
apologize for that. I am not sure the policy of having only one of a
kind makes much sense to me, but I certainly do not find discrimination in such
a policy when it's even handidly applied across the board.

> In Ubuntu we include Firefox instead of Epiphany, OpenOffice instead of 
> Gnome Office, etc. I see no problems with that. Currently we have 
> Gnopernicus installed by default and Orca as an option. For our next 
> release we will likely change that so that Orca becomes the default and 
> Gnopernicus the option. We still package and support a wide range of 
> options beyond that though and we are actively working on several new 
> accessibility tools from scratch.


Yes, those are accessibility friendly substitutions, and Ubuntu is to be
commended for this.

> >Frankly, it's an insult. This kind of grudging support for accessibility 
> >needs to be stopped right now. In fact, it's a stretch to even call it 
> >"support."
> >  
> This may be true in some areas of the open source world still, that 
> accessibility is an afterthought, but we are working to improve that. An 
> important factor in becoming better at this is learning to collaborate 
> better and work together on common tools. Choice is good in principle, 
> but the price of fragmented effort can be high.

Indeed so, especially in edge cases such as AT apps On the other hand AT
on the Linux GUI is still fairly new, and what approaches will prove
truly successful for the user is still to be seen.. We certainly do need
to work on cooperation and collaboration, but I suspect we're stronger
if we support the option for alternative approaches. I suspect, for
instance, that accessibility on the desktop is enhanced because KDE and
Gnome were able to agree on the same messaging SPI, while continuing to
remain autonomous and distinctive desktops.

> 
> Finally, I think you are complaining the wrong audience here (various 
> accessibility lists). All these people are already on your side. If you 
> want to make this complaint it should go to the main developer lists of 
> gnome, redhat, ubuntu, etc. Though that said, I do actually think that 
> gnome is right in their policy on this.

While I apologize for seeing injustice where there clearly isn't any, I
still remain unconvinced that an "only one of a kind" policy is the smarter policy. Different
issue, of course. 

Janina

> 
> Henrik Omma
> Ubuntu Accessibility Coordinator
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list
> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org
> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list

-- 

Janina Sajka				Phone: +1.240.715.1272
Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC	http://CapitalAccessibility.Com

Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. and Canada--Go to http://ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more.

Chair, Accessibility Workgroup		Free Standards Group (FSG)
janina@freestandards.org		http://a11y.org

Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16

[Janina Sajka]

Thanks, Kris, for getting at the real issue that I missed.
I must indeed agree with you. I, for one, am glad that there are dozens
of sopas at the store, and several airlines to fly across the Atlantic.
I understand it's harder to support choice in distributions and
desktops, but I believe it's essential so to do, if for no other reason
than it makes us think harder to get the important things right. It's not important that we all use the same email client, for instance, but it is
important that we can read email from anyone. I believe the latter is at
risk when we allow ourselves the ease of the former.

Janina

Kris Van Hees writes:
> On Sat, Jun 10, 2006 at 08:01:00PM +0100, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote:
> > Janina Sajka wrote:
> > >Mike Pedersen writes:
> > >>We have been informed, however, that there can be only one screen
> > >>reader/magnifier in the GNOME desktop.
> > >>    
> > >That's a rather outrageous attitude. Who made that decision?
> > >
> > >Are they also prepared to have only one web browser? ONly one media
> > >player? ONly one word processor? Only one email client application?
> > >  
> > I think you may have misinterpreted this slightly. The idea is that 
> > there will only be one official screen reader in Gnome, as there indeed 
> > is only one email client (Evolution), one browser (Epiphany), one office 
> > suite (gnome office, using abiword and gnumeric). Distributions can, and 
> > do, change these defaults and users can install a whole range of options.
> 
> Not to start a holy war, but a reasonable part of the audience that believes in
> an alternative to Microsoft Windows also supports the notion of *not* including
> various other applications and suites.  While Gnome is surely not an OS, it
> seems rather weird (and potentially dangerous) to me to end up with a situation
> where Gnome has an official screen reader, an official mail client, etc...
> By including specific official applications and suites in Gnome, you're bound
> to get into a situation where a large group of people will end up simply
> sticking to the officially included applications and suites, either by choice
> (easier) or as mandated by an IT department that takes the "we only run the
> officially included stuff" approach (all too comon).
> 
> And in the end... why not simply leave Gnome to be the desktop environment it
> is, and let users choose what they want?  Why does there need to be one
> official choice, and optional alternatives?  I can see where the general public
> falls for this, and how from a "let's pretend the user is stupid" perspective
> this can be considered "user-friendly", but I would hope that we (as a special
> interest group) can express a genuine concern about this type of policy to
> the powers that be (and that make this type of policy).
> 
> 	Kris
> _______________________________________________
> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list
> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org
> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list

-- 

Janina Sajka				Phone: +1.240.715.1272
Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC	http://CapitalAccessibility.Com

Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. and Canada--Go to http://ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more.

Chair, Accessibility Workgroup		Free Standards Group (FSG)
janina@freestandards.org		http://a11y.org