speakup todo?

speakup todo?

[Littlefield, Tyler]

Hello all:
I'm trying to transfer, and applying for scholarships and all that I'd 
like to be able to make some contributions to projects that I can note.
I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I figured 
I'd start by working on something I use almost daily. I'm curious then 
if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup could have to it.
I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to 
userspace--as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the 
kernel for would be hardware speech (and since serial ports are dying 
out that could be a dead point), and accessing the console directly. How 
easy would it be then, to have speakup run in userspace, but access a 
smaller cut-down version of itself in the kernel to provide the access 
to the console we need?
We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. It 
could return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it works 
now--one byte is the color, and the other byte is the ascii value. The 
sequence file would just iterate over the console's lines. I'm also 
curious how we'd handle something like key presses like caps+u to move 
up a line etc.

If I'm way off here, I'd still like to help out if possible; is there a 
todo list around, or stuff people would like to see done? If there are 
people willing to answer questions from time to time in terms of the 
kernel programming, since that's something I've not done before, I'm 
game to start coding.

Another question is then, how do people catch panics? Since I'm not 
quite cool enough to write code that just works, I'm sure I'll be 
dealing with panics, but I can't see them on the console and usually 
it's when speakup goes boom anyway.

-- 
Take care,
Ty
http://tds-solutions.net
The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave.

Re: speakup todo?

[Samuel Thibault]

Hello,

Littlefield, Tyler, le Sun 16 Sep 2012 12:17:15 -0600, a écrit :
> I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I figured I'd
> start by working on something I use almost daily.

That's usually the best way: it brings both motivation and good testing.

> I'm curious then if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup
> could have to it.

See the TODO file in the speakup repository, and the TODO file in
linux/drivers/staging/speakup

> I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to userspace

There are actually already some userspace readers: yasr, brltty.

> --as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the kernel for
> would be hardware speech

Actually only for a couple of them. Others can be driven from /dev/ttyS0
from userland.

> and accessing the console directly.

That, however is an important point.

> We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. It could
> return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it works now--one byte
> is the color, and the other byte is the ascii value.

This is already available as /dev/vcsa*, and what brltty uses. But
that's not very convenient, because it only provides a snapshot, and
not the whole flow. If you cat a file, for instance, you want it spoken
completely, and not only the last screen. Without pausing the cat
process from the kernel, you won't get it.

The kernel could expose the flow to userland like it currently does to
speakup, but the pause feature would probably be frowned up. It'd
easily get stuck for good.

> If there are people willing to answer questions from time to time in
> terms of the kernel programming, since that's something I've not done
> before, I'm game to start coding.

See the kernelnewbies website and IRC channel, it's meant for that.

> Another question is then, how do people catch panics?

Through a serial console, for instance (console=ttyS1)

Samuel

Re: speakup todo?

[Glenn]

The big one for SpeakUp would be for it to have the option to switch to JFW 
key mappings.
This will allow many people to switch to Linux easily.
Microsoft did this with MS Word, allowing people to use Word Perfect key 
mappings.
I think this is the only way Linux will ever become any more popular to 
screenreader users.
Glenn

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 1:17 PM
Subject: speakup todo?


Hello all:
I'm trying to transfer, and applying for scholarships and all that I'd
like to be able to make some contributions to projects that I can note.
I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I figured
I'd start by working on something I use almost daily. I'm curious then
if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup could have to it.
I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to
userspace--as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the
kernel for would be hardware speech (and since serial ports are dying
out that could be a dead point), and accessing the console directly. How
easy would it be then, to have speakup run in userspace, but access a
smaller cut-down version of itself in the kernel to provide the access
to the console we need?
We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. It
could return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it works
now--one byte is the color, and the other byte is the ascii value. The
sequence file would just iterate over the console's lines. I'm also
curious how we'd handle something like key presses like caps+u to move
up a line etc.

If I'm way off here, I'd still like to help out if possible; is there a
todo list around, or stuff people would like to see done? If there are
people willing to answer questions from time to time in terms of the
kernel programming, since that's something I've not done before, I'm
game to start coding.

Another question is then, how do people catch panics? Since I'm not
quite cool enough to write code that just works, I'm sure I'll be
dealing with panics, but I can't see them on the console and usually
it's when speakup goes boom anyway.

-- 
Take care,
Ty
http://tds-solutions.net
The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that 
dares not reason is a slave.

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 

Re: speakup todo?

[Littlefield, Tyler]

I'm not really to worried about JFW key mappings honestly. First it's 
sort of weird, but mainly if they can't get used to using different 
keys, they're never going to live on Linux, at least not in the cli.
On 9/16/2012 2:34 PM, Glenn wrote:
> The big one for SpeakUp would be for it to have the option to switch to JFW
> key mappings.
> This will allow many people to switch to Linux easily.
> Microsoft did this with MS Word, allowing people to use Word Perfect key
> mappings.
> I think this is the only way Linux will ever become any more popular to
> screenreader users.
> Glenn
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 1:17 PM
> Subject: speakup todo?
>
>
> Hello all:
> I'm trying to transfer, and applying for scholarships and all that I'd
> like to be able to make some contributions to projects that I can note.
> I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I figured
> I'd start by working on something I use almost daily. I'm curious then
> if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup could have to it.
> I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to
> userspace--as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the
> kernel for would be hardware speech (and since serial ports are dying
> out that could be a dead point), and accessing the console directly. How
> easy would it be then, to have speakup run in userspace, but access a
> smaller cut-down version of itself in the kernel to provide the access
> to the console we need?
> We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. It
> could return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it works
> now--one byte is the color, and the other byte is the ascii value. The
> sequence file would just iterate over the console's lines. I'm also
> curious how we'd handle something like key presses like caps+u to move
> up a line etc.
>
> If I'm way off here, I'd still like to help out if possible; is there a
> todo list around, or stuff people would like to see done? If there are
> people willing to answer questions from time to time in terms of the
> kernel programming, since that's something I've not done before, I'm
> game to start coding.
>
> Another question is then, how do people catch panics? Since I'm not
> quite cool enough to write code that just works, I'm sure I'll be
> dealing with panics, but I can't see them on the console and usually
> it's when speakup goes boom anyway.
>


-- 
Take care,
Ty
http://tds-solutions.net
The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave.

Re: speakup todo?

[Glenn]

That is the kind of thinking that will keep Linux in the shadows.
I teach people how to use screenreaders, and people have a hard enough time 
switching from the mouse to all these keyboard commands.
When people begrudgingly learn JFW keyboard mappings to some degree, do you 
think they will willing go out to learn different key mappings?
Only the techie types do that.
Glenn

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for 
Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 3:39 PM
Subject: Re: speakup todo?


I'm not really to worried about JFW key mappings honestly. First it's
sort of weird, but mainly if they can't get used to using different
keys, they're never going to live on Linux, at least not in the cli.
On 9/16/2012 2:34 PM, Glenn wrote:
> The big one for SpeakUp would be for it to have the option to switch to 
> JFW
> key mappings.
> This will allow many people to switch to Linux easily.
> Microsoft did this with MS Word, allowing people to use Word Perfect key
> mappings.
> I think this is the only way Linux will ever become any more popular to
> screenreader users.
> Glenn
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." 
> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 1:17 PM
> Subject: speakup todo?
>
>
> Hello all:
> I'm trying to transfer, and applying for scholarships and all that I'd
> like to be able to make some contributions to projects that I can note.
> I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I figured
> I'd start by working on something I use almost daily. I'm curious then
> if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup could have to it.
> I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to
> userspace--as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the
> kernel for would be hardware speech (and since serial ports are dying
> out that could be a dead point), and accessing the console directly. How
> easy would it be then, to have speakup run in userspace, but access a
> smaller cut-down version of itself in the kernel to provide the access
> to the console we need?
> We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. It
> could return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it works
> now--one byte is the color, and the other byte is the ascii value. The
> sequence file would just iterate over the console's lines. I'm also
> curious how we'd handle something like key presses like caps+u to move
> up a line etc.
>
> If I'm way off here, I'd still like to help out if possible; is there a
> todo list around, or stuff people would like to see done? If there are
> people willing to answer questions from time to time in terms of the
> kernel programming, since that's something I've not done before, I'm
> game to start coding.
>
> Another question is then, how do people catch panics? Since I'm not
> quite cool enough to write code that just works, I'm sure I'll be
> dealing with panics, but I can't see them on the console and usually
> it's when speakup goes boom anyway.
>


-- 
Take care,
Ty
http://tds-solutions.net
The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that 
dares not reason is a slave.

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 

Re: speakup todo?

[Alonzo Cuellar]

I think the key bindings are fine. There is no trouble with them at all.
Always be able to expand your mind set. Even if little progress is made. After all, you get more advantages from learning the way other screen readers work.
I can see where the option might be useful, but if you don't learn it full force and always stay trapped in the way jaws works, then you'll never expand your horizons.
people come to linux expecting it to be something like windows. Its not and it probably never will be similar to windows. Its made for you to explore, etc.
I was forced in using linux due to an accident I had with my computer. That was fine by me though. Ever since then I prefer the unix variances weather is be linux or mac.
I'm no programmer by any means, but I do enjoy working with other operating systems.
The argument that only techies spend the time to learn new keyboard commands is always widely used. I consider that as an excuse. Everyone can learn how to use a device weather it be a phone or computer. Maybe the person may have difficulty and may not excel where in mastering it, but thats ok. You can apply this to any situation.
If we were to stop learning… Then we would never excel and stay trapped in the mind frame that this or that is to hard.
Learn while you still can. Once you get older it gets harder to learn and thats where it might be a problem.

Alonzo


On Sep 16, 2012, at 3:59 PM, Glenn <glennervin@cableone.net> wrote:

> That is the kind of thinking that will keep Linux in the shadows.
> I teach people how to use screenreaders, and people have a hard enough time 
> switching from the mouse to all these keyboard commands.
> When people begrudgingly learn JFW keyboard mappings to some degree, do you 
> think they will willing go out to learn different key mappings?
> Only the techie types do that.
> Glenn
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
> To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for 
> Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 3:39 PM
> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
> 
> 
> I'm not really to worried about JFW key mappings honestly. First it's
> sort of weird, but mainly if they can't get used to using different
> keys, they're never going to live on Linux, at least not in the cli.
> On 9/16/2012 2:34 PM, Glenn wrote:
>> The big one for SpeakUp would be for it to have the option to switch to 
>> JFW
>> key mappings.
>> This will allow many people to switch to Linux easily.
>> Microsoft did this with MS Word, allowing people to use Word Perfect key
>> mappings.
>> I think this is the only way Linux will ever become any more popular to
>> screenreader users.
>> Glenn
>> 
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
>> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." 
>> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 1:17 PM
>> Subject: speakup todo?
>> 
>> 
>> Hello all:
>> I'm trying to transfer, and applying for scholarships and all that I'd
>> like to be able to make some contributions to projects that I can note.
>> I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I figured
>> I'd start by working on something I use almost daily. I'm curious then
>> if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup could have to it.
>> I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to
>> userspace--as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the
>> kernel for would be hardware speech (and since serial ports are dying
>> out that could be a dead point), and accessing the console directly. How
>> easy would it be then, to have speakup run in userspace, but access a
>> smaller cut-down version of itself in the kernel to provide the access
>> to the console we need?
>> We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. It
>> could return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it works
>> now--one byte is the color, and the other byte is the ascii value. The
>> sequence file would just iterate over the console's lines. I'm also
>> curious how we'd handle something like key presses like caps+u to move
>> up a line etc.
>> 
>> If I'm way off here, I'd still like to help out if possible; is there a
>> todo list around, or stuff people would like to see done? If there are
>> people willing to answer questions from time to time in terms of the
>> kernel programming, since that's something I've not done before, I'm
>> game to start coding.
>> 
>> Another question is then, how do people catch panics? Since I'm not
>> quite cool enough to write code that just works, I'm sure I'll be
>> dealing with panics, but I can't see them on the console and usually
>> it's when speakup goes boom anyway.
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Take care,
> Ty
> http://tds-solutions.net
> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that 
> dares not reason is a slave.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: speakup todo?

[Glenn]

That is true in a perfect world, but it is not like that, and the reality is 
as I stated, that very few Blind users will migrate to Linux without 
something familiar to use.
But you already use it, so why should you care if more users take to Linux?

Glenn

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alonzo Cuellar" <mariachiac@gmail.com>
To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for 
Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: speakup todo?


I think the key bindings are fine. There is no trouble with them at all.
Always be able to expand your mind set. Even if little progress is made. 
After all, you get more advantages from learning the way other screen 
readers work.
I can see where the option might be useful, but if you don't learn it full 
force and always stay trapped in the way jaws works, then you'll never 
expand your horizons.
people come to linux expecting it to be something like windows. Its not and 
it probably never will be similar to windows. Its made for you to explore, 
etc.
I was forced in using linux due to an accident I had with my computer. That 
was fine by me though. Ever since then I prefer the unix variances weather 
is be linux or mac.
I'm no programmer by any means, but I do enjoy working with other operating 
systems.
The argument that only techies spend the time to learn new keyboard commands 
is always widely used. I consider that as an excuse. Everyone can learn how 
to use a device weather it be a phone or computer. Maybe the person may have 
difficulty and may not excel where in mastering it, but thats ok. You can 
apply this to any situation.
If we were to stop learning… Then we would never excel and stay trapped in 
the mind frame that this or that is to hard.
Learn while you still can. Once you get older it gets harder to learn and 
thats where it might be a problem.

Alonzo


On Sep 16, 2012, at 3:59 PM, Glenn <glennervin@cableone.net> wrote:

> That is the kind of thinking that will keep Linux in the shadows.
> I teach people how to use screenreaders, and people have a hard enough 
> time
> switching from the mouse to all these keyboard commands.
> When people begrudgingly learn JFW keyboard mappings to some degree, do 
> you
> think they will willing go out to learn different key mappings?
> Only the techie types do that.
> Glenn
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
> To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for
> Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 3:39 PM
> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>
>
> I'm not really to worried about JFW key mappings honestly. First it's
> sort of weird, but mainly if they can't get used to using different
> keys, they're never going to live on Linux, at least not in the cli.
> On 9/16/2012 2:34 PM, Glenn wrote:
>> The big one for SpeakUp would be for it to have the option to switch to
>> JFW
>> key mappings.
>> This will allow many people to switch to Linux easily.
>> Microsoft did this with MS Word, allowing people to use Word Perfect key
>> mappings.
>> I think this is the only way Linux will ever become any more popular to
>> screenreader users.
>> Glenn
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
>> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
>> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 1:17 PM
>> Subject: speakup todo?
>>
>>
>> Hello all:
>> I'm trying to transfer, and applying for scholarships and all that I'd
>> like to be able to make some contributions to projects that I can note.
>> I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I figured
>> I'd start by working on something I use almost daily. I'm curious then
>> if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup could have to it.
>> I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to
>> userspace--as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the
>> kernel for would be hardware speech (and since serial ports are dying
>> out that could be a dead point), and accessing the console directly. How
>> easy would it be then, to have speakup run in userspace, but access a
>> smaller cut-down version of itself in the kernel to provide the access
>> to the console we need?
>> We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. It
>> could return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it works
>> now--one byte is the color, and the other byte is the ascii value. The
>> sequence file would just iterate over the console's lines. I'm also
>> curious how we'd handle something like key presses like caps+u to move
>> up a line etc.
>>
>> If I'm way off here, I'd still like to help out if possible; is there a
>> todo list around, or stuff people would like to see done? If there are
>> people willing to answer questions from time to time in terms of the
>> kernel programming, since that's something I've not done before, I'm
>> game to start coding.
>>
>> Another question is then, how do people catch panics? Since I'm not
>> quite cool enough to write code that just works, I'm sure I'll be
>> dealing with panics, but I can't see them on the console and usually
>> it's when speakup goes boom anyway.
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Take care,
> Ty
> http://tds-solutions.net
> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he 
> that
> dares not reason is a slave.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 

Re: speakup todo?

[Glenn]

Actually, it is this attitude among the sighted, that keeps most technology 
from being made accessible to the Blind.
Wow.
Glenn

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alonzo Cuellar" <mariachiac@gmail.com>
To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for 
Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: speakup todo?


I think the key bindings are fine. There is no trouble with them at all.
Always be able to expand your mind set. Even if little progress is made. 
After all, you get more advantages from learning the way other screen 
readers work.
I can see where the option might be useful, but if you don't learn it full 
force and always stay trapped in the way jaws works, then you'll never 
expand your horizons.
people come to linux expecting it to be something like windows. Its not and 
it probably never will be similar to windows. Its made for you to explore, 
etc.
I was forced in using linux due to an accident I had with my computer. That 
was fine by me though. Ever since then I prefer the unix variances weather 
is be linux or mac.
I'm no programmer by any means, but I do enjoy working with other operating 
systems.
The argument that only techies spend the time to learn new keyboard commands 
is always widely used. I consider that as an excuse. Everyone can learn how 
to use a device weather it be a phone or computer. Maybe the person may have 
difficulty and may not excel where in mastering it, but thats ok. You can 
apply this to any situation.
If we were to stop learning… Then we would never excel and stay trapped in 
the mind frame that this or that is to hard.
Learn while you still can. Once you get older it gets harder to learn and 
thats where it might be a problem.

Alonzo


On Sep 16, 2012, at 3:59 PM, Glenn <glennervin@cableone.net> wrote:

> That is the kind of thinking that will keep Linux in the shadows.
> I teach people how to use screenreaders, and people have a hard enough 
> time
> switching from the mouse to all these keyboard commands.
> When people begrudgingly learn JFW keyboard mappings to some degree, do 
> you
> think they will willing go out to learn different key mappings?
> Only the techie types do that.
> Glenn
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
> To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for
> Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 3:39 PM
> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>
>
> I'm not really to worried about JFW key mappings honestly. First it's
> sort of weird, but mainly if they can't get used to using different
> keys, they're never going to live on Linux, at least not in the cli.
> On 9/16/2012 2:34 PM, Glenn wrote:
>> The big one for SpeakUp would be for it to have the option to switch to
>> JFW
>> key mappings.
>> This will allow many people to switch to Linux easily.
>> Microsoft did this with MS Word, allowing people to use Word Perfect key
>> mappings.
>> I think this is the only way Linux will ever become any more popular to
>> screenreader users.
>> Glenn
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
>> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
>> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 1:17 PM
>> Subject: speakup todo?
>>
>>
>> Hello all:
>> I'm trying to transfer, and applying for scholarships and all that I'd
>> like to be able to make some contributions to projects that I can note.
>> I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I figured
>> I'd start by working on something I use almost daily. I'm curious then
>> if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup could have to it.
>> I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to
>> userspace--as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the
>> kernel for would be hardware speech (and since serial ports are dying
>> out that could be a dead point), and accessing the console directly. How
>> easy would it be then, to have speakup run in userspace, but access a
>> smaller cut-down version of itself in the kernel to provide the access
>> to the console we need?
>> We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. It
>> could return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it works
>> now--one byte is the color, and the other byte is the ascii value. The
>> sequence file would just iterate over the console's lines. I'm also
>> curious how we'd handle something like key presses like caps+u to move
>> up a line etc.
>>
>> If I'm way off here, I'd still like to help out if possible; is there a
>> todo list around, or stuff people would like to see done? If there are
>> people willing to answer questions from time to time in terms of the
>> kernel programming, since that's something I've not done before, I'm
>> game to start coding.
>>
>> Another question is then, how do people catch panics? Since I'm not
>> quite cool enough to write code that just works, I'm sure I'll be
>> dealing with panics, but I can't see them on the console and usually
>> it's when speakup goes boom anyway.
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Take care,
> Ty
> http://tds-solutions.net
> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he 
> that
> dares not reason is a slave.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 

Re: speakup todo?

[Alonzo Cuellar]

I think the only reason why technology doesn't get made accessible is because we are a small market. I was only stating my opinion. I know many users won't go to linux because of the learning curve. I think though if you aspire to learn something you will. It goes the same for work or any type of situation involving learning. Our world is not perfect, we are not perfect, etc. As blind individuals though we have to take it a step further to make something work. Its a sad thing, but perhaps later accessibility will be considered. meaning that maybe technology that is not accessible will be made accessible allowing us to interface easier. Thats already happening though with iOs and Android Devices. Which is great.

The end user can use what ever they enjoy using. Does it matter to me if an individual uses Linux? In a way yes because it would certainly help where accessibility is concerned. But only the user can make the choice to learn the OS. Most people don't bother because it may be to complex.
Since you teach though I can see where having a universal layout would help. Thats nearly impossible though because every screen reader interfaces with reading/presenting  info differently.
I didn't mean to have an attitude or to come off rude. There is just plenty of choices out there and if the person wants to they can certainly begin to use what ever screen reader they want.
Alonzo



On Sep 16, 2012, at 4:51 PM, Glenn <glennervin@cableone.net> wrote:

> Actually, it is this attitude among the sighted, that keeps most technology 
> from being made accessible to the Blind.
> Wow.
> Glenn
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Alonzo Cuellar" <mariachiac@gmail.com>
> To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for 
> Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 4:38 PM
> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
> 
> 
> I think the key bindings are fine. There is no trouble with them at all.
> Always be able to expand your mind set. Even if little progress is made. 
> After all, you get more advantages from learning the way other screen 
> readers work.
> I can see where the option might be useful, but if you don't learn it full 
> force and always stay trapped in the way jaws works, then you'll never 
> expand your horizons.
> people come to linux expecting it to be something like windows. Its not and 
> it probably never will be similar to windows. Its made for you to explore, 
> etc.
> I was forced in using linux due to an accident I had with my computer. That 
> was fine by me though. Ever since then I prefer the unix variances weather 
> is be linux or mac.
> I'm no programmer by any means, but I do enjoy working with other operating 
> systems.
> The argument that only techies spend the time to learn new keyboard commands 
> is always widely used. I consider that as an excuse. Everyone can learn how 
> to use a device weather it be a phone or computer. Maybe the person may have 
> difficulty and may not excel where in mastering it, but thats ok. You can 
> apply this to any situation.
> If we were to stop learning… Then we would never excel and stay trapped in 
> the mind frame that this or that is to hard.
> Learn while you still can. Once you get older it gets harder to learn and 
> thats where it might be a problem.
> 
> Alonzo
> 
> 
> On Sep 16, 2012, at 3:59 PM, Glenn <glennervin@cableone.net> wrote:
> 
>> That is the kind of thinking that will keep Linux in the shadows.
>> I teach people how to use screenreaders, and people have a hard enough 
>> time
>> switching from the mouse to all these keyboard commands.
>> When people begrudgingly learn JFW keyboard mappings to some degree, do 
>> you
>> think they will willing go out to learn different key mappings?
>> Only the techie types do that.
>> Glenn
>> 
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
>> To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for
>> Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 3:39 PM
>> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>> 
>> 
>> I'm not really to worried about JFW key mappings honestly. First it's
>> sort of weird, but mainly if they can't get used to using different
>> keys, they're never going to live on Linux, at least not in the cli.
>> On 9/16/2012 2:34 PM, Glenn wrote:
>>> The big one for SpeakUp would be for it to have the option to switch to
>>> JFW
>>> key mappings.
>>> This will allow many people to switch to Linux easily.
>>> Microsoft did this with MS Word, allowing people to use Word Perfect key
>>> mappings.
>>> I think this is the only way Linux will ever become any more popular to
>>> screenreader users.
>>> Glenn
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
>>> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
>>> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 1:17 PM
>>> Subject: speakup todo?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hello all:
>>> I'm trying to transfer, and applying for scholarships and all that I'd
>>> like to be able to make some contributions to projects that I can note.
>>> I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I figured
>>> I'd start by working on something I use almost daily. I'm curious then
>>> if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup could have to it.
>>> I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to
>>> userspace--as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the
>>> kernel for would be hardware speech (and since serial ports are dying
>>> out that could be a dead point), and accessing the console directly. How
>>> easy would it be then, to have speakup run in userspace, but access a
>>> smaller cut-down version of itself in the kernel to provide the access
>>> to the console we need?
>>> We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. It
>>> could return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it works
>>> now--one byte is the color, and the other byte is the ascii value. The
>>> sequence file would just iterate over the console's lines. I'm also
>>> curious how we'd handle something like key presses like caps+u to move
>>> up a line etc.
>>> 
>>> If I'm way off here, I'd still like to help out if possible; is there a
>>> todo list around, or stuff people would like to see done? If there are
>>> people willing to answer questions from time to time in terms of the
>>> kernel programming, since that's something I've not done before, I'm
>>> game to start coding.
>>> 
>>> Another question is then, how do people catch panics? Since I'm not
>>> quite cool enough to write code that just works, I'm sure I'll be
>>> dealing with panics, but I can't see them on the console and usually
>>> it's when speakup goes boom anyway.
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Take care,
>> Ty
>> http://tds-solutions.net
>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
>> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he 
>> that
>> dares not reason is a slave.
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: speakup todo?

[Rob Hudson]

For a long time I was leary of switching to linux because I could not stand 
the espeak voice, and that was the only option available to me as far as 
speech synthesis went, not having a hardware synthesizer other than my 
braille lite. I am afflicted with severe hearing loss and the metallic tin 
can nature of that voice is such that I can only understand one out of every 
five words or so. Even if I lower the pitch and speed it only helps a 
little.
Then I found out about voxin, which helped a great deal. It's not exactly 
current, but I can understand everything it says, when it actually works. 
Also I have a braille display now so I can use BRLTTY. In fact, I just 
installed Debian Squeeze with no speech and only braille the other day.
As far as Speakup's key bindings go, I do not see what the problem is. As 
far as I know if you do not like a certain key combination for performing an 
action, you can redefine it to something else pretty easily. I myself didn't 
have much of a hard time using speakup's keys, although I did find myself 
doing its key combinations in windows and wondering briefly why it didn't 
work. Lol.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Glenn" <glennervin@cableone.net>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 4:48 PM
Subject: Re: speakup todo?


That is true in a perfect world, but it is not like that, and the reality is
as I stated, that very few Blind users will migrate to Linux without
something familiar to use.
But you already use it, so why should you care if more users take to Linux?

Glenn

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alonzo Cuellar" <mariachiac@gmail.com>
To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for
Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: speakup todo?


I think the key bindings are fine. There is no trouble with them at all.
Always be able to expand your mind set. Even if little progress is made.
After all, you get more advantages from learning the way other screen
readers work.
I can see where the option might be useful, but if you don't learn it full
force and always stay trapped in the way jaws works, then you'll never
expand your horizons.
people come to linux expecting it to be something like windows. Its not and
it probably never will be similar to windows. Its made for you to explore,
etc.
I was forced in using linux due to an accident I had with my computer. That
was fine by me though. Ever since then I prefer the unix variances weather
is be linux or mac.
I'm no programmer by any means, but I do enjoy working with other operating
systems.
The argument that only techies spend the time to learn new keyboard commands
is always widely used. I consider that as an excuse. Everyone can learn how
to use a device weather it be a phone or computer. Maybe the person may have
difficulty and may not excel where in mastering it, but thats ok. You can
apply this to any situation.
If we were to stop learning… Then we would never excel and stay trapped in
the mind frame that this or that is to hard.
Learn while you still can. Once you get older it gets harder to learn and
thats where it might be a problem.

Alonzo


On Sep 16, 2012, at 3:59 PM, Glenn <glennervin@cableone.net> wrote:

> That is the kind of thinking that will keep Linux in the shadows.
> I teach people how to use screenreaders, and people have a hard enough
> time
> switching from the mouse to all these keyboard commands.
> When people begrudgingly learn JFW keyboard mappings to some degree, do
> you
> think they will willing go out to learn different key mappings?
> Only the techie types do that.
> Glenn
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
> To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for
> Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 3:39 PM
> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>
>
> I'm not really to worried about JFW key mappings honestly. First it's
> sort of weird, but mainly if they can't get used to using different
> keys, they're never going to live on Linux, at least not in the cli.
> On 9/16/2012 2:34 PM, Glenn wrote:
>> The big one for SpeakUp would be for it to have the option to switch to
>> JFW
>> key mappings.
>> This will allow many people to switch to Linux easily.
>> Microsoft did this with MS Word, allowing people to use Word Perfect key
>> mappings.
>> I think this is the only way Linux will ever become any more popular to
>> screenreader users.
>> Glenn
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
>> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
>> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 1:17 PM
>> Subject: speakup todo?
>>
>>
>> Hello all:
>> I'm trying to transfer, and applying for scholarships and all that I'd
>> like to be able to make some contributions to projects that I can note.
>> I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I figured
>> I'd start by working on something I use almost daily. I'm curious then
>> if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup could have to it.
>> I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to
>> userspace--as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the
>> kernel for would be hardware speech (and since serial ports are dying
>> out that could be a dead point), and accessing the console directly. How
>> easy would it be then, to have speakup run in userspace, but access a
>> smaller cut-down version of itself in the kernel to provide the access
>> to the console we need?
>> We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. It
>> could return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it works
>> now--one byte is the color, and the other byte is the ascii value. The
>> sequence file would just iterate over the console's lines. I'm also
>> curious how we'd handle something like key presses like caps+u to move
>> up a line etc.
>>
>> If I'm way off here, I'd still like to help out if possible; is there a
>> todo list around, or stuff people would like to see done? If there are
>> people willing to answer questions from time to time in terms of the
>> kernel programming, since that's something I've not done before, I'm
>> game to start coding.
>>
>> Another question is then, how do people catch panics? Since I'm not
>> quite cool enough to write code that just works, I'm sure I'll be
>> dealing with panics, but I can't see them on the console and usually
>> it's when speakup goes boom anyway.
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Take care,
> Ty
> http://tds-solutions.net
> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he
> that
> dares not reason is a slave.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 

Re: speakup todo?

[Littlefield, Tyler]

No, htis isn't the attitude the sighted people have. Learning a new 
operating system requires just that, that you sit down and learn. Look 
at all the blind people jumping on the OSX band waggon and buying $1800 
shiny MacBooks. They learned those, and Voiceover's keys are nothing 
like Jaws's.
On 9/16/2012 3:51 PM, Glenn wrote:
> Actually, it is this attitude among the sighted, that keeps most technology
> from being made accessible to the Blind.
> Wow.
> Glenn
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alonzo Cuellar" <mariachiac@gmail.com>
> To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for
> Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 4:38 PM
> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>
>
> I think the key bindings are fine. There is no trouble with them at all.
> Always be able to expand your mind set. Even if little progress is made.
> After all, you get more advantages from learning the way other screen
> readers work.
> I can see where the option might be useful, but if you don't learn it full
> force and always stay trapped in the way jaws works, then you'll never
> expand your horizons.
> people come to linux expecting it to be something like windows. Its not and
> it probably never will be similar to windows. Its made for you to explore,
> etc.
> I was forced in using linux due to an accident I had with my computer. That
> was fine by me though. Ever since then I prefer the unix variances weather
> is be linux or mac.
> I'm no programmer by any means, but I do enjoy working with other operating
> systems.
> The argument that only techies spend the time to learn new keyboard commands
> is always widely used. I consider that as an excuse. Everyone can learn how
> to use a device weather it be a phone or computer. Maybe the person may have
> difficulty and may not excel where in mastering it, but thats ok. You can
> apply this to any situation.
> If we were to stop learning… Then we would never excel and stay trapped in
> the mind frame that this or that is to hard.
> Learn while you still can. Once you get older it gets harder to learn and
> thats where it might be a problem.
>
> Alonzo
>
>
> On Sep 16, 2012, at 3:59 PM, Glenn <glennervin@cableone.net> wrote:
>
>> That is the kind of thinking that will keep Linux in the shadows.
>> I teach people how to use screenreaders, and people have a hard enough
>> time
>> switching from the mouse to all these keyboard commands.
>> When people begrudgingly learn JFW keyboard mappings to some degree, do
>> you
>> think they will willing go out to learn different key mappings?
>> Only the techie types do that.
>> Glenn
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
>> To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for
>> Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 3:39 PM
>> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>>
>>
>> I'm not really to worried about JFW key mappings honestly. First it's
>> sort of weird, but mainly if they can't get used to using different
>> keys, they're never going to live on Linux, at least not in the cli.
>> On 9/16/2012 2:34 PM, Glenn wrote:
>>> The big one for SpeakUp would be for it to have the option to switch to
>>> JFW
>>> key mappings.
>>> This will allow many people to switch to Linux easily.
>>> Microsoft did this with MS Word, allowing people to use Word Perfect key
>>> mappings.
>>> I think this is the only way Linux will ever become any more popular to
>>> screenreader users.
>>> Glenn
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
>>> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
>>> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 1:17 PM
>>> Subject: speakup todo?
>>>
>>>
>>> Hello all:
>>> I'm trying to transfer, and applying for scholarships and all that I'd
>>> like to be able to make some contributions to projects that I can note.
>>> I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I figured
>>> I'd start by working on something I use almost daily. I'm curious then
>>> if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup could have to it.
>>> I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to
>>> userspace--as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the
>>> kernel for would be hardware speech (and since serial ports are dying
>>> out that could be a dead point), and accessing the console directly. How
>>> easy would it be then, to have speakup run in userspace, but access a
>>> smaller cut-down version of itself in the kernel to provide the access
>>> to the console we need?
>>> We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. It
>>> could return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it works
>>> now--one byte is the color, and the other byte is the ascii value. The
>>> sequence file would just iterate over the console's lines. I'm also
>>> curious how we'd handle something like key presses like caps+u to move
>>> up a line etc.
>>>
>>> If I'm way off here, I'd still like to help out if possible; is there a
>>> todo list around, or stuff people would like to see done? If there are
>>> people willing to answer questions from time to time in terms of the
>>> kernel programming, since that's something I've not done before, I'm
>>> game to start coding.
>>>
>>> Another question is then, how do people catch panics? Since I'm not
>>> quite cool enough to write code that just works, I'm sure I'll be
>>> dealing with panics, but I can't see them on the console and usually
>>> it's when speakup goes boom anyway.
>>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Take care,
>> Ty
>> http://tds-solutions.net
>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
>> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he
>> that
>> dares not reason is a slave.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup


-- 
Take care,
Ty
http://tds-solutions.net
The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave.

Re: speakup todo?

[Jason Miller]

Hello.

Let me start by this first. You've been on several lists, bitching and 
complaining about everyone switching to JFW keybindings. The first time 
I saw it, you went to the wrong list to complain about something not 
sharing bindings with JFW that wasn't even the right list. I said it 
there, adn I'll say it here again. If not having JFW bindings was going 
to be a killer for the blind, then things like Orca, Speakup, Emacs, 
Voice Over, along with *coughs* Window Eyes, and NVDA on Windows 
wouldn't exist. To put your argument to a rest, if what you said were 
true, then why are so many people switching away from jaws, just 
speaking alone of windows, and going to NVDA or Window Eyes, let alone 
those that are migrating to other *nix based systems? I don't know what 
kind of personal crusade you are on, but from what I've seen, this is 
nothing more than you trying to troll.

Secondly, like I said, he's been on several lists complaining about no 
one in the linux world using the JFW based keybindings. This 
conversation could go on forever, but it would be just feeding a troll. 
If everyone here has noticed, he's hijacked Tyler's thread, just to stir 
up trouble. He seems to do that elsewhere on other Linux accessibility 
lists, and when someone points out a valid argument, he seems to get 
frustrated, and go away.

*shrugs* if you've really taught computers to the blind, then you would 
understand that they are willing to learn what works. Not everyone needs 
the windows world, and not everyone wants to stay in that ecosystem. You 
don't go to every list, start complaining about how things should be 
like windows, and JAWS, otherwise like I've told you before, only JAWS 
would exist, and there would be no other accessibility programs out 
there. Basically it comes down to this, and this is why I am not too 
sure about what you say about teaching those with vision impairments how 
to use technology. You teach someone who doesn't know different 
techniques, teach them different systems that would fit their needs, and 
you let them decide. You don't force a single way onto them, and go 
everywhere else that isn't of that way to stir up trouble.

Anyway, end of my rant towards this guy.

On 09/16/2012 05:51 PM, Glenn wrote:
> Actually, it is this attitude among the sighted, that keeps most technology
> from being made accessible to the Blind.
> Wow.
> Glenn
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alonzo Cuellar"<mariachiac@gmail.com>
> To: "Glenn"<glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for
> Linux."<speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 4:38 PM
> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>
>
> I think the key bindings are fine. There is no trouble with them at all.
> Always be able to expand your mind set. Even if little progress is made.
> After all, you get more advantages from learning the way other screen
> readers work.
> I can see where the option might be useful, but if you don't learn it full
> force and always stay trapped in the way jaws works, then you'll never
> expand your horizons.
> people come to linux expecting it to be something like windows. Its not and
> it probably never will be similar to windows. Its made for you to explore,
> etc.
> I was forced in using linux due to an accident I had with my computer. That
> was fine by me though. Ever since then I prefer the unix variances weather
> is be linux or mac.
> I'm no programmer by any means, but I do enjoy working with other operating
> systems.
> The argument that only techies spend the time to learn new keyboard commands
> is always widely used. I consider that as an excuse. Everyone can learn how
> to use a device weather it be a phone or computer. Maybe the person may have
> difficulty and may not excel where in mastering it, but thats ok. You can
> apply this to any situation.
> If we were to stop learning… Then we would never excel and stay trapped in
> the mind frame that this or that is to hard.
> Learn while you still can. Once you get older it gets harder to learn and
> thats where it might be a problem.
>
> Alonzo
>
>
> On Sep 16, 2012, at 3:59 PM, Glenn<glennervin@cableone.net>  wrote:
>
>> That is the kind of thinking that will keep Linux in the shadows.
>> I teach people how to use screenreaders, and people have a hard enough
>> time
>> switching from the mouse to all these keyboard commands.
>> When people begrudgingly learn JFW keyboard mappings to some degree, do
>> you
>> think they will willing go out to learn different key mappings?
>> Only the techie types do that.
>> Glenn
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler"<tyler@tysdomain.com>
>> To: "Glenn"<glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for
>> Linux."<speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 3:39 PM
>> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>>
>>
>> I'm not really to worried about JFW key mappings honestly. First it's
>> sort of weird, but mainly if they can't get used to using different
>> keys, they're never going to live on Linux, at least not in the cli.
>> On 9/16/2012 2:34 PM, Glenn wrote:
>>> The big one for SpeakUp would be for it to have the option to switch to
>>> JFW
>>> key mappings.
>>> This will allow many people to switch to Linux easily.
>>> Microsoft did this with MS Word, allowing people to use Word Perfect key
>>> mappings.
>>> I think this is the only way Linux will ever become any more popular to
>>> screenreader users.
>>> Glenn
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler"<tyler@tysdomain.com>
>>> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
>>> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 1:17 PM
>>> Subject: speakup todo?
>>>
>>>
>>> Hello all:
>>> I'm trying to transfer, and applying for scholarships and all that I'd
>>> like to be able to make some contributions to projects that I can note.
>>> I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I figured
>>> I'd start by working on something I use almost daily. I'm curious then
>>> if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup could have to it.
>>> I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to
>>> userspace--as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the
>>> kernel for would be hardware speech (and since serial ports are dying
>>> out that could be a dead point), and accessing the console directly. How
>>> easy would it be then, to have speakup run in userspace, but access a
>>> smaller cut-down version of itself in the kernel to provide the access
>>> to the console we need?
>>> We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. It
>>> could return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it works
>>> now--one byte is the color, and the other byte is the ascii value. The
>>> sequence file would just iterate over the console's lines. I'm also
>>> curious how we'd handle something like key presses like caps+u to move
>>> up a line etc.
>>>
>>> If I'm way off here, I'd still like to help out if possible; is there a
>>> todo list around, or stuff people would like to see done? If there are
>>> people willing to answer questions from time to time in terms of the
>>> kernel programming, since that's something I've not done before, I'm
>>> game to start coding.
>>>
>>> Another question is then, how do people catch panics? Since I'm not
>>> quite cool enough to write code that just works, I'm sure I'll be
>>> dealing with panics, but I can't see them on the console and usually
>>> it's when speakup goes boom anyway.
>>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Take care,
>> Ty
>> http://tds-solutions.net
>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
>> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he
>> that
>> dares not reason is a slave.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup


-- 
Jason Miller
Vinux PR Coordinator

Re: speakup todo?

[Littlefield, Tyler]

 >But you already use it, so why should you care if more users take to 
Linux?
I really don't either way. People are going to use Linux because they 
want to, probably because they want to learn. Linux is not an 
all-purpose desktop; ever tried doing your banking from the cli? It's 
not something for the end-user. Sure we have projects like Vinux--where 
we ship out huge bloated cds with everything in the ubuntu repo that can 
fit on it, but even that's not an all-purpose desktop, even though 
people swear by it.

My point though was that by learning Linux (and if you're using speakup 
you're using the cli), you have to learn what comes with it. Whether 
that's how to set up and configure your cli apps, or how to use the 
screen reader. Whatever reader you go with, even NVDA vs Jaws or 
Voiceover requires you learn something new, and the shift from Windows 
to OSX and Jaws/NVDA to Voiceover is quite drastic, and people still 
manage to learn it without jaws keybindings.
On 9/16/2012 3:48 PM, Glenn wrote:
> That is true in a perfect world, but it is not like that, and the reality is
> as I stated, that very few Blind users will migrate to Linux without
> something familiar to use.
> But you already use it, so why should you care if more users take to Linux?
>
> Glenn
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alonzo Cuellar" <mariachiac@gmail.com>
> To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for
> Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 4:38 PM
> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>
>
> I think the key bindings are fine. There is no trouble with them at all.
> Always be able to expand your mind set. Even if little progress is made.
> After all, you get more advantages from learning the way other screen
> readers work.
> I can see where the option might be useful, but if you don't learn it full
> force and always stay trapped in the way jaws works, then you'll never
> expand your horizons.
> people come to linux expecting it to be something like windows. Its not and
> it probably never will be similar to windows. Its made for you to explore,
> etc.
> I was forced in using linux due to an accident I had with my computer. That
> was fine by me though. Ever since then I prefer the unix variances weather
> is be linux or mac.
> I'm no programmer by any means, but I do enjoy working with other operating
> systems.
> The argument that only techies spend the time to learn new keyboard commands
> is always widely used. I consider that as an excuse. Everyone can learn how
> to use a device weather it be a phone or computer. Maybe the person may have
> difficulty and may not excel where in mastering it, but thats ok. You can
> apply this to any situation.
> If we were to stop learning… Then we would never excel and stay trapped in
> the mind frame that this or that is to hard.
> Learn while you still can. Once you get older it gets harder to learn and
> thats where it might be a problem.
>
> Alonzo
>
>
> On Sep 16, 2012, at 3:59 PM, Glenn <glennervin@cableone.net> wrote:
>
>> That is the kind of thinking that will keep Linux in the shadows.
>> I teach people how to use screenreaders, and people have a hard enough
>> time
>> switching from the mouse to all these keyboard commands.
>> When people begrudgingly learn JFW keyboard mappings to some degree, do
>> you
>> think they will willing go out to learn different key mappings?
>> Only the techie types do that.
>> Glenn
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
>> To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for
>> Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 3:39 PM
>> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>>
>>
>> I'm not really to worried about JFW key mappings honestly. First it's
>> sort of weird, but mainly if they can't get used to using different
>> keys, they're never going to live on Linux, at least not in the cli.
>> On 9/16/2012 2:34 PM, Glenn wrote:
>>> The big one for SpeakUp would be for it to have the option to switch to
>>> JFW
>>> key mappings.
>>> This will allow many people to switch to Linux easily.
>>> Microsoft did this with MS Word, allowing people to use Word Perfect key
>>> mappings.
>>> I think this is the only way Linux will ever become any more popular to
>>> screenreader users.
>>> Glenn
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
>>> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
>>> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 1:17 PM
>>> Subject: speakup todo?
>>>
>>>
>>> Hello all:
>>> I'm trying to transfer, and applying for scholarships and all that I'd
>>> like to be able to make some contributions to projects that I can note.
>>> I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I figured
>>> I'd start by working on something I use almost daily. I'm curious then
>>> if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup could have to it.
>>> I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to
>>> userspace--as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the
>>> kernel for would be hardware speech (and since serial ports are dying
>>> out that could be a dead point), and accessing the console directly. How
>>> easy would it be then, to have speakup run in userspace, but access a
>>> smaller cut-down version of itself in the kernel to provide the access
>>> to the console we need?
>>> We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. It
>>> could return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it works
>>> now--one byte is the color, and the other byte is the ascii value. The
>>> sequence file would just iterate over the console's lines. I'm also
>>> curious how we'd handle something like key presses like caps+u to move
>>> up a line etc.
>>>
>>> If I'm way off here, I'd still like to help out if possible; is there a
>>> todo list around, or stuff people would like to see done? If there are
>>> people willing to answer questions from time to time in terms of the
>>> kernel programming, since that's something I've not done before, I'm
>>> game to start coding.
>>>
>>> Another question is then, how do people catch panics? Since I'm not
>>> quite cool enough to write code that just works, I'm sure I'll be
>>> dealing with panics, but I can't see them on the console and usually
>>> it's when speakup goes boom anyway.
>>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Take care,
>> Ty
>> http://tds-solutions.net
>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
>> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he
>> that
>> dares not reason is a slave.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup


-- 
Take care,
Ty
http://tds-solutions.net
The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave.

Re: speakup todo?

[Alonzo Cuellar]

I agree with Jason and tyler. You have to do whats necessary to learn an OS. You either take it by the horns and see what you can accomplish or forget it. Linux may not be an all purpose desktop, but for those who are willing to use it I'm sure become rewarded later.
SAme applies for voiceover and the mac. I had no idea how to use it. It was just trial and error with me and my brother. Now I can use it just fine.

Alonzo





On Sep 16, 2012, at 5:15 PM, "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com> wrote:

> >But you already use it, so why should you care if more users take to Linux?
> I really don't either way. People are going to use Linux because they want to, probably because they want to learn. Linux is not an all-purpose desktop; ever tried doing your banking from the cli? It's not something for the end-user. Sure we have projects like Vinux--where we ship out huge bloated cds with everything in the ubuntu repo that can fit on it, but even that's not an all-purpose desktop, even though people swear by it.
> 
> My point though was that by learning Linux (and if you're using speakup you're using the cli), you have to learn what comes with it. Whether that's how to set up and configure your cli apps, or how to use the screen reader. Whatever reader you go with, even NVDA vs Jaws or Voiceover requires you learn something new, and the shift from Windows to OSX and Jaws/NVDA to Voiceover is quite drastic, and people still manage to learn it without jaws keybindings.
> On 9/16/2012 3:48 PM, Glenn wrote:
>> That is true in a perfect world, but it is not like that, and the reality is
>> as I stated, that very few Blind users will migrate to Linux without
>> something familiar to use.
>> But you already use it, so why should you care if more users take to Linux?
>> 
>> Glenn
>> 
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Alonzo Cuellar" <mariachiac@gmail.com>
>> To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for
>> Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 4:38 PM
>> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>> 
>> 
>> I think the key bindings are fine. There is no trouble with them at all.
>> Always be able to expand your mind set. Even if little progress is made.
>> After all, you get more advantages from learning the way other screen
>> readers work.
>> I can see where the option might be useful, but if you don't learn it full
>> force and always stay trapped in the way jaws works, then you'll never
>> expand your horizons.
>> people come to linux expecting it to be something like windows. Its not and
>> it probably never will be similar to windows. Its made for you to explore,
>> etc.
>> I was forced in using linux due to an accident I had with my computer. That
>> was fine by me though. Ever since then I prefer the unix variances weather
>> is be linux or mac.
>> I'm no programmer by any means, but I do enjoy working with other operating
>> systems.
>> The argument that only techies spend the time to learn new keyboard commands
>> is always widely used. I consider that as an excuse. Everyone can learn how
>> to use a device weather it be a phone or computer. Maybe the person may have
>> difficulty and may not excel where in mastering it, but thats ok. You can
>> apply this to any situation.
>> If we were to stop learning… Then we would never excel and stay trapped in
>> the mind frame that this or that is to hard.
>> Learn while you still can. Once you get older it gets harder to learn and
>> thats where it might be a problem.
>> 
>> Alonzo
>> 
>> 
>> On Sep 16, 2012, at 3:59 PM, Glenn <glennervin@cableone.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> That is the kind of thinking that will keep Linux in the shadows.
>>> I teach people how to use screenreaders, and people have a hard enough
>>> time
>>> switching from the mouse to all these keyboard commands.
>>> When people begrudgingly learn JFW keyboard mappings to some degree, do
>>> you
>>> think they will willing go out to learn different key mappings?
>>> Only the techie types do that.
>>> Glenn
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
>>> To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for
>>> Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 3:39 PM
>>> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I'm not really to worried about JFW key mappings honestly. First it's
>>> sort of weird, but mainly if they can't get used to using different
>>> keys, they're never going to live on Linux, at least not in the cli.
>>> On 9/16/2012 2:34 PM, Glenn wrote:
>>>> The big one for SpeakUp would be for it to have the option to switch to
>>>> JFW
>>>> key mappings.
>>>> This will allow many people to switch to Linux easily.
>>>> Microsoft did this with MS Word, allowing people to use Word Perfect key
>>>> mappings.
>>>> I think this is the only way Linux will ever become any more popular to
>>>> screenreader users.
>>>> Glenn
>>>> 
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
>>>> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
>>>> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 1:17 PM
>>>> Subject: speakup todo?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Hello all:
>>>> I'm trying to transfer, and applying for scholarships and all that I'd
>>>> like to be able to make some contributions to projects that I can note.
>>>> I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I figured
>>>> I'd start by working on something I use almost daily. I'm curious then
>>>> if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup could have to it.
>>>> I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to
>>>> userspace--as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the
>>>> kernel for would be hardware speech (and since serial ports are dying
>>>> out that could be a dead point), and accessing the console directly. How
>>>> easy would it be then, to have speakup run in userspace, but access a
>>>> smaller cut-down version of itself in the kernel to provide the access
>>>> to the console we need?
>>>> We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. It
>>>> could return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it works
>>>> now--one byte is the color, and the other byte is the ascii value. The
>>>> sequence file would just iterate over the console's lines. I'm also
>>>> curious how we'd handle something like key presses like caps+u to move
>>>> up a line etc.
>>>> 
>>>> If I'm way off here, I'd still like to help out if possible; is there a
>>>> todo list around, or stuff people would like to see done? If there are
>>>> people willing to answer questions from time to time in terms of the
>>>> kernel programming, since that's something I've not done before, I'm
>>>> game to start coding.
>>>> 
>>>> Another question is then, how do people catch panics? Since I'm not
>>>> quite cool enough to write code that just works, I'm sure I'll be
>>>> dealing with panics, but I can't see them on the console and usually
>>>> it's when speakup goes boom anyway.
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Take care,
>>> Ty
>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
>>> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he
>>> that
>>> dares not reason is a slave.
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> -- 
> Take care,
> Ty
> http://tds-solutions.net
> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: speakup todo?

[Glenn]

I am referring to the attitude, not the result.
The attitude here is that people either have to do it this way, or not at 
all.
We all owe a lot to mostly sighted programmers, and some Blind ones too, who 
wanted to make computers accessible to the Blind.
Now that you are in, so to speak, why should you care if less techie folks 
get to use something other than windows?
Some sighted folks think that it is nice if we can use a computer, but they 
don't care enough to make it happen for us.
We see this in equipment like cell phones.
Most people think that we all can learn a bunch of unspoken commands to use 
a cell phone.
I can, but I sure don't wish to do that if I don't have to.
So many folks, for example, will use a less functional phone like the Haven, 
because it is totally accessible, rather than having a phone with bluetooth 
or a camera.
Now if phone makers cared enough to make all phones accessible like the 
Haven, then we could choose according to actual phone functions.
Likewise, it would be nice if folks could try Linux based on its merits as 
an OS, but because they have invested a lot into learning JFW, and they will 
never change, because that is the path of less resistance.
And like I mentioned before, unless someone is techie enough to care about 
it, the extra work involved is not worth it, because folks don't understand 
the benefits of an OS like Linux.
Glenn

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for 
Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 5:12 PM
Subject: Re: speakup todo?


No, htis isn't the attitude the sighted people have. Learning a new
operating system requires just that, that you sit down and learn. Look
at all the blind people jumping on the OSX band waggon and buying $1800
shiny MacBooks. They learned those, and Voiceover's keys are nothing
like Jaws's.
On 9/16/2012 3:51 PM, Glenn wrote:
> Actually, it is this attitude among the sighted, that keeps most 
> technology
> from being made accessible to the Blind.
> Wow.
> Glenn
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alonzo Cuellar" <mariachiac@gmail.com>
> To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for
> Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 4:38 PM
> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>
>
> I think the key bindings are fine. There is no trouble with them at all.
> Always be able to expand your mind set. Even if little progress is made.
> After all, you get more advantages from learning the way other screen
> readers work.
> I can see where the option might be useful, but if you don't learn it full
> force and always stay trapped in the way jaws works, then you'll never
> expand your horizons.
> people come to linux expecting it to be something like windows. Its not 
> and
> it probably never will be similar to windows. Its made for you to explore,
> etc.
> I was forced in using linux due to an accident I had with my computer. 
> That
> was fine by me though. Ever since then I prefer the unix variances weather
> is be linux or mac.
> I'm no programmer by any means, but I do enjoy working with other 
> operating
> systems.
> The argument that only techies spend the time to learn new keyboard 
> commands
> is always widely used. I consider that as an excuse. Everyone can learn 
> how
> to use a device weather it be a phone or computer. Maybe the person may 
> have
> difficulty and may not excel where in mastering it, but thats ok. You can
> apply this to any situation.
> If we were to stop learning… Then we would never excel and stay trapped in
> the mind frame that this or that is to hard.
> Learn while you still can. Once you get older it gets harder to learn and
> thats where it might be a problem.
>
> Alonzo
>
>
> On Sep 16, 2012, at 3:59 PM, Glenn <glennervin@cableone.net> wrote:
>
>> That is the kind of thinking that will keep Linux in the shadows.
>> I teach people how to use screenreaders, and people have a hard enough
>> time
>> switching from the mouse to all these keyboard commands.
>> When people begrudgingly learn JFW keyboard mappings to some degree, do
>> you
>> think they will willing go out to learn different key mappings?
>> Only the techie types do that.
>> Glenn
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
>> To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system 
>> for
>> Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 3:39 PM
>> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>>
>>
>> I'm not really to worried about JFW key mappings honestly. First it's
>> sort of weird, but mainly if they can't get used to using different
>> keys, they're never going to live on Linux, at least not in the cli.
>> On 9/16/2012 2:34 PM, Glenn wrote:
>>> The big one for SpeakUp would be for it to have the option to switch to
>>> JFW
>>> key mappings.
>>> This will allow many people to switch to Linux easily.
>>> Microsoft did this with MS Word, allowing people to use Word Perfect key
>>> mappings.
>>> I think this is the only way Linux will ever become any more popular to
>>> screenreader users.
>>> Glenn
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
>>> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
>>> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 1:17 PM
>>> Subject: speakup todo?
>>>
>>>
>>> Hello all:
>>> I'm trying to transfer, and applying for scholarships and all that I'd
>>> like to be able to make some contributions to projects that I can note.
>>> I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I figured
>>> I'd start by working on something I use almost daily. I'm curious then
>>> if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup could have to it.
>>> I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to
>>> userspace--as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the
>>> kernel for would be hardware speech (and since serial ports are dying
>>> out that could be a dead point), and accessing the console directly. How
>>> easy would it be then, to have speakup run in userspace, but access a
>>> smaller cut-down version of itself in the kernel to provide the access
>>> to the console we need?
>>> We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. It
>>> could return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it works
>>> now--one byte is the color, and the other byte is the ascii value. The
>>> sequence file would just iterate over the console's lines. I'm also
>>> curious how we'd handle something like key presses like caps+u to move
>>> up a line etc.
>>>
>>> If I'm way off here, I'd still like to help out if possible; is there a
>>> todo list around, or stuff people would like to see done? If there are
>>> people willing to answer questions from time to time in terms of the
>>> kernel programming, since that's something I've not done before, I'm
>>> game to start coding.
>>>
>>> Another question is then, how do people catch panics? Since I'm not
>>> quite cool enough to write code that just works, I'm sure I'll be
>>> dealing with panics, but I can't see them on the console and usually
>>> it's when speakup goes boom anyway.
>>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Take care,
>> Ty
>> http://tds-solutions.net
>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
>> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he
>> that
>> dares not reason is a slave.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup


-- 
Take care,
Ty
http://tds-solutions.net
The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that 
dares not reason is a slave.

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 

Re: speakup todo?

[Littlefield, Tyler]

I don't get the point in your ramblings.
You are complaining about phones (all phones) not being acccessible. 
That's kind of how life goes. I don't need to learn a lot of unspoken 
commands to use my IPhone, you just flick around the screen. A basic 
user to text and make calls doesn't need to learn to much. I'm also 
blind, so well, using a camera isn't on my top 100 things to do with my 
phone. If I need a picture taken, I let someone take it and it's not off 
center and blurry and everything else.

Now, on to your OS comment. Do you currently use Linux with Speakup? 
Because this isn't something "less techy folks" are going to do. Yes, I 
would love to see Linux as a viable option to replace Windows for blind 
people, but it's not there and changing Speakups key bindings to work 
more like Jaws isn't going to get it there.
On 9/16/2012 4:33 PM, Glenn wrote:
> I am referring to the attitude, not the result.
> The attitude here is that people either have to do it this way, or not at
> all.
> We all owe a lot to mostly sighted programmers, and some Blind ones too, who
> wanted to make computers accessible to the Blind.
> Now that you are in, so to speak, why should you care if less techie folks
> get to use something other than windows?
> Some sighted folks think that it is nice if we can use a computer, but they
> don't care enough to make it happen for us.
> We see this in equipment like cell phones.
> Most people think that we all can learn a bunch of unspoken commands to use
> a cell phone.
> I can, but I sure don't wish to do that if I don't have to.
> So many folks, for example, will use a less functional phone like the Haven,
> because it is totally accessible, rather than having a phone with bluetooth
> or a camera.
> Now if phone makers cared enough to make all phones accessible like the
> Haven, then we could choose according to actual phone functions.
> Likewise, it would be nice if folks could try Linux based on its merits as
> an OS, but because they have invested a lot into learning JFW, and they will
> never change, because that is the path of less resistance.
> And like I mentioned before, unless someone is techie enough to care about
> it, the extra work involved is not worth it, because folks don't understand
> the benefits of an OS like Linux.
> Glenn
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
> To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for
> Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 5:12 PM
> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>
>
> No, htis isn't the attitude the sighted people have. Learning a new
> operating system requires just that, that you sit down and learn. Look
> at all the blind people jumping on the OSX band waggon and buying $1800
> shiny MacBooks. They learned those, and Voiceover's keys are nothing
> like Jaws's.
> On 9/16/2012 3:51 PM, Glenn wrote:
>> Actually, it is this attitude among the sighted, that keeps most
>> technology
>> from being made accessible to the Blind.
>> Wow.
>> Glenn
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Alonzo Cuellar" <mariachiac@gmail.com>
>> To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for
>> Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 4:38 PM
>> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>>
>>
>> I think the key bindings are fine. There is no trouble with them at all.
>> Always be able to expand your mind set. Even if little progress is made.
>> After all, you get more advantages from learning the way other screen
>> readers work.
>> I can see where the option might be useful, but if you don't learn it full
>> force and always stay trapped in the way jaws works, then you'll never
>> expand your horizons.
>> people come to linux expecting it to be something like windows. Its not
>> and
>> it probably never will be similar to windows. Its made for you to explore,
>> etc.
>> I was forced in using linux due to an accident I had with my computer.
>> That
>> was fine by me though. Ever since then I prefer the unix variances weather
>> is be linux or mac.
>> I'm no programmer by any means, but I do enjoy working with other
>> operating
>> systems.
>> The argument that only techies spend the time to learn new keyboard
>> commands
>> is always widely used. I consider that as an excuse. Everyone can learn
>> how
>> to use a device weather it be a phone or computer. Maybe the person may
>> have
>> difficulty and may not excel where in mastering it, but thats ok. You can
>> apply this to any situation.
>> If we were to stop learning… Then we would never excel and stay trapped in
>> the mind frame that this or that is to hard.
>> Learn while you still can. Once you get older it gets harder to learn and
>> thats where it might be a problem.
>>
>> Alonzo
>>
>>
>> On Sep 16, 2012, at 3:59 PM, Glenn <glennervin@cableone.net> wrote:
>>
>>> That is the kind of thinking that will keep Linux in the shadows.
>>> I teach people how to use screenreaders, and people have a hard enough
>>> time
>>> switching from the mouse to all these keyboard commands.
>>> When people begrudgingly learn JFW keyboard mappings to some degree, do
>>> you
>>> think they will willing go out to learn different key mappings?
>>> Only the techie types do that.
>>> Glenn
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
>>> To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system
>>> for
>>> Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 3:39 PM
>>> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm not really to worried about JFW key mappings honestly. First it's
>>> sort of weird, but mainly if they can't get used to using different
>>> keys, they're never going to live on Linux, at least not in the cli.
>>> On 9/16/2012 2:34 PM, Glenn wrote:
>>>> The big one for SpeakUp would be for it to have the option to switch to
>>>> JFW
>>>> key mappings.
>>>> This will allow many people to switch to Linux easily.
>>>> Microsoft did this with MS Word, allowing people to use Word Perfect key
>>>> mappings.
>>>> I think this is the only way Linux will ever become any more popular to
>>>> screenreader users.
>>>> Glenn
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
>>>> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
>>>> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 1:17 PM
>>>> Subject: speakup todo?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello all:
>>>> I'm trying to transfer, and applying for scholarships and all that I'd
>>>> like to be able to make some contributions to projects that I can note.
>>>> I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I figured
>>>> I'd start by working on something I use almost daily. I'm curious then
>>>> if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup could have to it.
>>>> I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to
>>>> userspace--as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the
>>>> kernel for would be hardware speech (and since serial ports are dying
>>>> out that could be a dead point), and accessing the console directly. How
>>>> easy would it be then, to have speakup run in userspace, but access a
>>>> smaller cut-down version of itself in the kernel to provide the access
>>>> to the console we need?
>>>> We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. It
>>>> could return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it works
>>>> now--one byte is the color, and the other byte is the ascii value. The
>>>> sequence file would just iterate over the console's lines. I'm also
>>>> curious how we'd handle something like key presses like caps+u to move
>>>> up a line etc.
>>>>
>>>> If I'm way off here, I'd still like to help out if possible; is there a
>>>> todo list around, or stuff people would like to see done? If there are
>>>> people willing to answer questions from time to time in terms of the
>>>> kernel programming, since that's something I've not done before, I'm
>>>> game to start coding.
>>>>
>>>> Another question is then, how do people catch panics? Since I'm not
>>>> quite cool enough to write code that just works, I'm sure I'll be
>>>> dealing with panics, but I can't see them on the console and usually
>>>> it's when speakup goes boom anyway.
>>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Take care,
>>> Ty
>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
>>> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he
>>> that
>>> dares not reason is a slave.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>


-- 
Take care,
Ty
http://tds-solutions.net
The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave.

Re: speakup todo?

[Glenn]

I have tried to get folks to switch to Linux, but it is difficult,
as people like what is familiar to them.
The situation on the other list, the Orca list I think, was that I am on 
digest on that list, and I did not reply to the thread subject, I'm not sure 
how to do that from digest mode, which on that instance, was regarding key 
bindings in Orca, but I wrote a new thread with a similar subject line, and 
some folks thought it had nothing to do with that subject on that list.
But yes, I am trying to get the Linux community to wake up to this need.
In fact, in Windows, the program Window Eyes finally smartened up and used 
JFW key bindings.
It may be easy for someone who knows how to make new key bindings, but not 
for a new user.
If it is really fairly easy to make a new set of key bindings, then why 
doesn't someone just do it, and make it an option for new users, like Window 
Eyes did?
Glenn
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jason Miller" <hobbgoblin79@gmail.com>
To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for 
Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 5:13 PM
Subject: Re: speakup todo?


Hello.

Let me start by this first. You've been on several lists, bitching and
complaining about everyone switching to JFW keybindings. The first time
I saw it, you went to the wrong list to complain about something not
sharing bindings with JFW that wasn't even the right list. I said it
there, adn I'll say it here again. If not having JFW bindings was going
to be a killer for the blind, then things like Orca, Speakup, Emacs,
Voice Over, along with *coughs* Window Eyes, and NVDA on Windows
wouldn't exist. To put your argument to a rest, if what you said were
true, then why are so many people switching away from jaws, just
speaking alone of windows, and going to NVDA or Window Eyes, let alone
those that are migrating to other *nix based systems? I don't know what
kind of personal crusade you are on, but from what I've seen, this is
nothing more than you trying to troll.

Secondly, like I said, he's been on several lists complaining about no
one in the linux world using the JFW based keybindings. This
conversation could go on forever, but it would be just feeding a troll.
If everyone here has noticed, he's hijacked Tyler's thread, just to stir
up trouble. He seems to do that elsewhere on other Linux accessibility
lists, and when someone points out a valid argument, he seems to get
frustrated, and go away.

*shrugs* if you've really taught computers to the blind, then you would
understand that they are willing to learn what works. Not everyone needs
the windows world, and not everyone wants to stay in that ecosystem. You
don't go to every list, start complaining about how things should be
like windows, and JAWS, otherwise like I've told you before, only JAWS
would exist, and there would be no other accessibility programs out
there. Basically it comes down to this, and this is why I am not too
sure about what you say about teaching those with vision impairments how
to use technology. You teach someone who doesn't know different
techniques, teach them different systems that would fit their needs, and
you let them decide. You don't force a single way onto them, and go
everywhere else that isn't of that way to stir up trouble.

Anyway, end of my rant towards this guy.

On 09/16/2012 05:51 PM, Glenn wrote:
> Actually, it is this attitude among the sighted, that keeps most 
> technology
> from being made accessible to the Blind.
> Wow.
> Glenn
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alonzo Cuellar"<mariachiac@gmail.com>
> To: "Glenn"<glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for
> Linux."<speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 4:38 PM
> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>
>
> I think the key bindings are fine. There is no trouble with them at all.
> Always be able to expand your mind set. Even if little progress is made.
> After all, you get more advantages from learning the way other screen
> readers work.
> I can see where the option might be useful, but if you don't learn it full
> force and always stay trapped in the way jaws works, then you'll never
> expand your horizons.
> people come to linux expecting it to be something like windows. Its not 
> and
> it probably never will be similar to windows. Its made for you to explore,
> etc.
> I was forced in using linux due to an accident I had with my computer. 
> That
> was fine by me though. Ever since then I prefer the unix variances weather
> is be linux or mac.
> I'm no programmer by any means, but I do enjoy working with other 
> operating
> systems.
> The argument that only techies spend the time to learn new keyboard 
> commands
> is always widely used. I consider that as an excuse. Everyone can learn 
> how
> to use a device weather it be a phone or computer. Maybe the person may 
> have
> difficulty and may not excel where in mastering it, but thats ok. You can
> apply this to any situation.
> If we were to stop learning… Then we would never excel and stay trapped in
> the mind frame that this or that is to hard.
> Learn while you still can. Once you get older it gets harder to learn and
> thats where it might be a problem.
>
> Alonzo
>
>
> On Sep 16, 2012, at 3:59 PM, Glenn<glennervin@cableone.net>  wrote:
>
>> That is the kind of thinking that will keep Linux in the shadows.
>> I teach people how to use screenreaders, and people have a hard enough
>> time
>> switching from the mouse to all these keyboard commands.
>> When people begrudgingly learn JFW keyboard mappings to some degree, do
>> you
>> think they will willing go out to learn different key mappings?
>> Only the techie types do that.
>> Glenn
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler"<tyler@tysdomain.com>
>> To: "Glenn"<glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for
>> Linux."<speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 3:39 PM
>> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>>
>>
>> I'm not really to worried about JFW key mappings honestly. First it's
>> sort of weird, but mainly if they can't get used to using different
>> keys, they're never going to live on Linux, at least not in the cli.
>> On 9/16/2012 2:34 PM, Glenn wrote:
>>> The big one for SpeakUp would be for it to have the option to switch to
>>> JFW
>>> key mappings.
>>> This will allow many people to switch to Linux easily.
>>> Microsoft did this with MS Word, allowing people to use Word Perfect key
>>> mappings.
>>> I think this is the only way Linux will ever become any more popular to
>>> screenreader users.
>>> Glenn
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler"<tyler@tysdomain.com>
>>> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
>>> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 1:17 PM
>>> Subject: speakup todo?
>>>
>>>
>>> Hello all:
>>> I'm trying to transfer, and applying for scholarships and all that I'd
>>> like to be able to make some contributions to projects that I can note.
>>> I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I figured
>>> I'd start by working on something I use almost daily. I'm curious then
>>> if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup could have to it.
>>> I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to
>>> userspace--as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the
>>> kernel for would be hardware speech (and since serial ports are dying
>>> out that could be a dead point), and accessing the console directly. How
>>> easy would it be then, to have speakup run in userspace, but access a
>>> smaller cut-down version of itself in the kernel to provide the access
>>> to the console we need?
>>> We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. It
>>> could return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it works
>>> now--one byte is the color, and the other byte is the ascii value. The
>>> sequence file would just iterate over the console's lines. I'm also
>>> curious how we'd handle something like key presses like caps+u to move
>>> up a line etc.
>>>
>>> If I'm way off here, I'd still like to help out if possible; is there a
>>> todo list around, or stuff people would like to see done? If there are
>>> people willing to answer questions from time to time in terms of the
>>> kernel programming, since that's something I've not done before, I'm
>>> game to start coding.
>>>
>>> Another question is then, how do people catch panics? Since I'm not
>>> quite cool enough to write code that just works, I'm sure I'll be
>>> dealing with panics, but I can't see them on the console and usually
>>> it's when speakup goes boom anyway.
>>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Take care,
>> Ty
>> http://tds-solutions.net
>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
>> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he
>> that
>> dares not reason is a slave.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup


-- 
Jason Miller
Vinux PR Coordinator

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 

Re: speakup todo?

[Littlefield, Tyler]

OK. so you want keys likeys like Jaws's keybindings to work. so lets say 
I bind up arrow to caps+u, down arrow to caps+o. How exactly do you want 
someone to uh, move up and down in the terminal now? Lets now bind 
caps+j and caps+l to left and right, respectively. Awesome, now I can't 
move around and edit parts of my command, this is great. Lets set up key 
bindings for highlight tracking, shall we? Well snap, Jaws doesn't 
appear to have a tracking option that I can copy that keybind for, wo is 
me... I'll need to leave that one alone.

Speakup works a lot differently than Jaws does. You have screen review 
commands, but Jaws lets you move up and down left and right through text 
presented in windows, edit boxes etc. Making it where the user could 
move up and down around the screen with the arrow keys kind of kills 
programs that use those keys, like the handy editors, for example.
Since you want these key bindings, would you mind clarifying how you 
expect this to work?
On 9/16/2012 4:42 PM, Glenn wrote:
> I have tried to get folks to switch to Linux, but it is difficult,
> as people like what is familiar to them.
> The situation on the other list, the Orca list I think, was that I am on
> digest on that list, and I did not reply to the thread subject, I'm not sure
> how to do that from digest mode, which on that instance, was regarding key
> bindings in Orca, but I wrote a new thread with a similar subject line, and
> some folks thought it had nothing to do with that subject on that list.
> But yes, I am trying to get the Linux community to wake up to this need.
> In fact, in Windows, the program Window Eyes finally smartened up and used
> JFW key bindings.
> It may be easy for someone who knows how to make new key bindings, but not
> for a new user.
> If it is really fairly easy to make a new set of key bindings, then why
> doesn't someone just do it, and make it an option for new users, like Window
> Eyes did?
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jason Miller" <hobbgoblin79@gmail.com>
> To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for
> Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 5:13 PM
> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>
>
> Hello.
>
> Let me start by this first. You've been on several lists, bitching and
> complaining about everyone switching to JFW keybindings. The first time
> I saw it, you went to the wrong list to complain about something not
> sharing bindings with JFW that wasn't even the right list. I said it
> there, adn I'll say it here again. If not having JFW bindings was going
> to be a killer for the blind, then things like Orca, Speakup, Emacs,
> Voice Over, along with *coughs* Window Eyes, and NVDA on Windows
> wouldn't exist. To put your argument to a rest, if what you said were
> true, then why are so many people switching away from jaws, just
> speaking alone of windows, and going to NVDA or Window Eyes, let alone
> those that are migrating to other *nix based systems? I don't know what
> kind of personal crusade you are on, but from what I've seen, this is
> nothing more than you trying to troll.
>
> Secondly, like I said, he's been on several lists complaining about no
> one in the linux world using the JFW based keybindings. This
> conversation could go on forever, but it would be just feeding a troll.
> If everyone here has noticed, he's hijacked Tyler's thread, just to stir
> up trouble. He seems to do that elsewhere on other Linux accessibility
> lists, and when someone points out a valid argument, he seems to get
> frustrated, and go away.
>
> *shrugs* if you've really taught computers to the blind, then you would
> understand that they are willing to learn what works. Not everyone needs
> the windows world, and not everyone wants to stay in that ecosystem. You
> don't go to every list, start complaining about how things should be
> like windows, and JAWS, otherwise like I've told you before, only JAWS
> would exist, and there would be no other accessibility programs out
> there. Basically it comes down to this, and this is why I am not too
> sure about what you say about teaching those with vision impairments how
> to use technology. You teach someone who doesn't know different
> techniques, teach them different systems that would fit their needs, and
> you let them decide. You don't force a single way onto them, and go
> everywhere else that isn't of that way to stir up trouble.
>
> Anyway, end of my rant towards this guy.
>
> On 09/16/2012 05:51 PM, Glenn wrote:
>> Actually, it is this attitude among the sighted, that keeps most
>> technology
>> from being made accessible to the Blind.
>> Wow.
>> Glenn
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Alonzo Cuellar"<mariachiac@gmail.com>
>> To: "Glenn"<glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for
>> Linux."<speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 4:38 PM
>> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>>
>>
>> I think the key bindings are fine. There is no trouble with them at all.
>> Always be able to expand your mind set. Even if little progress is made.
>> After all, you get more advantages from learning the way other screen
>> readers work.
>> I can see where the option might be useful, but if you don't learn it full
>> force and always stay trapped in the way jaws works, then you'll never
>> expand your horizons.
>> people come to linux expecting it to be something like windows. Its not
>> and
>> it probably never will be similar to windows. Its made for you to explore,
>> etc.
>> I was forced in using linux due to an accident I had with my computer.
>> That
>> was fine by me though. Ever since then I prefer the unix variances weather
>> is be linux or mac.
>> I'm no programmer by any means, but I do enjoy working with other
>> operating
>> systems.
>> The argument that only techies spend the time to learn new keyboard
>> commands
>> is always widely used. I consider that as an excuse. Everyone can learn
>> how
>> to use a device weather it be a phone or computer. Maybe the person may
>> have
>> difficulty and may not excel where in mastering it, but thats ok. You can
>> apply this to any situation.
>> If we were to stop learning… Then we would never excel and stay trapped in
>> the mind frame that this or that is to hard.
>> Learn while you still can. Once you get older it gets harder to learn and
>> thats where it might be a problem.
>>
>> Alonzo
>>
>>
>> On Sep 16, 2012, at 3:59 PM, Glenn<glennervin@cableone.net>  wrote:
>>
>>> That is the kind of thinking that will keep Linux in the shadows.
>>> I teach people how to use screenreaders, and people have a hard enough
>>> time
>>> switching from the mouse to all these keyboard commands.
>>> When people begrudgingly learn JFW keyboard mappings to some degree, do
>>> you
>>> think they will willing go out to learn different key mappings?
>>> Only the techie types do that.
>>> Glenn
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler"<tyler@tysdomain.com>
>>> To: "Glenn"<glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for
>>> Linux."<speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 3:39 PM
>>> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm not really to worried about JFW key mappings honestly. First it's
>>> sort of weird, but mainly if they can't get used to using different
>>> keys, they're never going to live on Linux, at least not in the cli.
>>> On 9/16/2012 2:34 PM, Glenn wrote:
>>>> The big one for SpeakUp would be for it to have the option to switch to
>>>> JFW
>>>> key mappings.
>>>> This will allow many people to switch to Linux easily.
>>>> Microsoft did this with MS Word, allowing people to use Word Perfect key
>>>> mappings.
>>>> I think this is the only way Linux will ever become any more popular to
>>>> screenreader users.
>>>> Glenn
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler"<tyler@tysdomain.com>
>>>> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
>>>> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 1:17 PM
>>>> Subject: speakup todo?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello all:
>>>> I'm trying to transfer, and applying for scholarships and all that I'd
>>>> like to be able to make some contributions to projects that I can note.
>>>> I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I figured
>>>> I'd start by working on something I use almost daily. I'm curious then
>>>> if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup could have to it.
>>>> I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to
>>>> userspace--as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the
>>>> kernel for would be hardware speech (and since serial ports are dying
>>>> out that could be a dead point), and accessing the console directly. How
>>>> easy would it be then, to have speakup run in userspace, but access a
>>>> smaller cut-down version of itself in the kernel to provide the access
>>>> to the console we need?
>>>> We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. It
>>>> could return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it works
>>>> now--one byte is the color, and the other byte is the ascii value. The
>>>> sequence file would just iterate over the console's lines. I'm also
>>>> curious how we'd handle something like key presses like caps+u to move
>>>> up a line etc.
>>>>
>>>> If I'm way off here, I'd still like to help out if possible; is there a
>>>> todo list around, or stuff people would like to see done? If there are
>>>> people willing to answer questions from time to time in terms of the
>>>> kernel programming, since that's something I've not done before, I'm
>>>> game to start coding.
>>>>
>>>> Another question is then, how do people catch panics? Since I'm not
>>>> quite cool enough to write code that just works, I'm sure I'll be
>>>> dealing with panics, but I can't see them on the console and usually
>>>> it's when speakup goes boom anyway.
>>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Take care,
>>> Ty
>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
>>> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he
>>> that
>>> dares not reason is a slave.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>


-- 
Take care,
Ty
http://tds-solutions.net
The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave.

Re: speakup todo?

[Glenn]

You wrote:
>But you already use it, so why should you care if more users take to
Linux?
* I don't like to see folks who cannot afford it to have to buy a new 
computer because Windows stops supporting the OS, and also having to buy and 
expensive screenreader all the time.
Glenn

I really don't either way. People are going to use Linux because they
want to, probably because they want to learn. Linux is not an
all-purpose desktop; ever tried doing your banking from the cli? It's
not something for the end-user. Sure we have projects like Vinux--where
we ship out huge bloated cds with everything in the ubuntu repo that can
fit on it, but even that's not an all-purpose desktop, even though
people swear by it.

My point though was that by learning Linux (and if you're using speakup
you're using the cli), you have to learn what comes with it. Whether
that's how to set up and configure your cli apps, or how to use the
screen reader. Whatever reader you go with, even NVDA vs Jaws or
Voiceover requires you learn something new, and the shift from Windows
to OSX and Jaws/NVDA to Voiceover is quite drastic, and people still
manage to learn it without jaws keybindings.
On 9/16/2012 3:48 PM, Glenn wrote:
> That is true in a perfect world, but it is not like that, and the reality 
> is
> as I stated, that very few Blind users will migrate to Linux without
> something familiar to use.
> But you already use it, so why should you care if more users take to 
> Linux?
>
> Glenn
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alonzo Cuellar" <mariachiac@gmail.com>
> To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for
> Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 4:38 PM
> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>
>
> I think the key bindings are fine. There is no trouble with them at all.
> Always be able to expand your mind set. Even if little progress is made.
> After all, you get more advantages from learning the way other screen
> readers work.
> I can see where the option might be useful, but if you don't learn it full
> force and always stay trapped in the way jaws works, then you'll never
> expand your horizons.
> people come to linux expecting it to be something like windows. Its not 
> and
> it probably never will be similar to windows. Its made for you to explore,
> etc.
> I was forced in using linux due to an accident I had with my computer. 
> That
> was fine by me though. Ever since then I prefer the unix variances weather
> is be linux or mac.
> I'm no programmer by any means, but I do enjoy working with other 
> operating
> systems.
> The argument that only techies spend the time to learn new keyboard 
> commands
> is always widely used. I consider that as an excuse. Everyone can learn 
> how
> to use a device weather it be a phone or computer. Maybe the person may 
> have
> difficulty and may not excel where in mastering it, but thats ok. You can
> apply this to any situation.
> If we were to stop learning… Then we would never excel and stay trapped in
> the mind frame that this or that is to hard.
> Learn while you still can. Once you get older it gets harder to learn and
> thats where it might be a problem.
>
> Alonzo
>
>
> On Sep 16, 2012, at 3:59 PM, Glenn <glennervin@cableone.net> wrote:
>
>> That is the kind of thinking that will keep Linux in the shadows.
>> I teach people how to use screenreaders, and people have a hard enough
>> time
>> switching from the mouse to all these keyboard commands.
>> When people begrudgingly learn JFW keyboard mappings to some degree, do
>> you
>> think they will willing go out to learn different key mappings?
>> Only the techie types do that.
>> Glenn
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
>> To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system 
>> for
>> Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 3:39 PM
>> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>>
>>
>> I'm not really to worried about JFW key mappings honestly. First it's
>> sort of weird, but mainly if they can't get used to using different
>> keys, they're never going to live on Linux, at least not in the cli.
>> On 9/16/2012 2:34 PM, Glenn wrote:
>>> The big one for SpeakUp would be for it to have the option to switch to
>>> JFW
>>> key mappings.
>>> This will allow many people to switch to Linux easily.
>>> Microsoft did this with MS Word, allowing people to use Word Perfect key
>>> mappings.
>>> I think this is the only way Linux will ever become any more popular to
>>> screenreader users.
>>> Glenn
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
>>> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
>>> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 1:17 PM
>>> Subject: speakup todo?
>>>
>>>
>>> Hello all:
>>> I'm trying to transfer, and applying for scholarships and all that I'd
>>> like to be able to make some contributions to projects that I can note.
>>> I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I figured
>>> I'd start by working on something I use almost daily. I'm curious then
>>> if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup could have to it.
>>> I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to
>>> userspace--as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the
>>> kernel for would be hardware speech (and since serial ports are dying
>>> out that could be a dead point), and accessing the console directly. How
>>> easy would it be then, to have speakup run in userspace, but access a
>>> smaller cut-down version of itself in the kernel to provide the access
>>> to the console we need?
>>> We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. It
>>> could return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it works
>>> now--one byte is the color, and the other byte is the ascii value. The
>>> sequence file would just iterate over the console's lines. I'm also
>>> curious how we'd handle something like key presses like caps+u to move
>>> up a line etc.
>>>
>>> If I'm way off here, I'd still like to help out if possible; is there a
>>> todo list around, or stuff people would like to see done? If there are
>>> people willing to answer questions from time to time in terms of the
>>> kernel programming, since that's something I've not done before, I'm
>>> game to start coding.
>>>
>>> Another question is then, how do people catch panics? Since I'm not
>>> quite cool enough to write code that just works, I'm sure I'll be
>>> dealing with panics, but I can't see them on the console and usually
>>> it's when speakup goes boom anyway.
>>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Take care,
>> Ty
>> http://tds-solutions.net
>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
>> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he
>> that
>> dares not reason is a slave.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup


-- 
Take care,
Ty
http://tds-solutions.net
The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that 
dares not reason is a slave.

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: speakup todo?

[Glenn]

And if this attitude prevails, then you will always be in a small club, 
maybe you want it that way though.
But keep in mind that Linux would have not even become as popular to the 
sighted if it would not have taken on a windows-like appeal.
Glenn

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alonzo Cuellar" <mariachiac@gmail.com>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 5:24 PM
Subject: Re: speakup todo?


I agree with Jason and tyler. You have to do whats necessary to learn an OS. 
You either take it by the horns and see what you can accomplish or forget 
it. Linux may not be an all purpose desktop, but for those who are willing 
to use it I'm sure become rewarded later.
SAme applies for voiceover and the mac. I had no idea how to use it. It was 
just trial and error with me and my brother. Now I can use it just fine.

Alonzo





On Sep 16, 2012, at 5:15 PM, "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com> 
wrote:

> >But you already use it, so why should you care if more users take to 
> >Linux?
> I really don't either way. People are going to use Linux because they want 
> to, probably because they want to learn. Linux is not an all-purpose 
> desktop; ever tried doing your banking from the cli? It's not something 
> for the end-user. Sure we have projects like Vinux--where we ship out huge 
> bloated cds with everything in the ubuntu repo that can fit on it, but 
> even that's not an all-purpose desktop, even though people swear by it.
>
> My point though was that by learning Linux (and if you're using speakup 
> you're using the cli), you have to learn what comes with it. Whether 
> that's how to set up and configure your cli apps, or how to use the screen 
> reader. Whatever reader you go with, even NVDA vs Jaws or Voiceover 
> requires you learn something new, and the shift from Windows to OSX and 
> Jaws/NVDA to Voiceover is quite drastic, and people still manage to learn 
> it without jaws keybindings.
> On 9/16/2012 3:48 PM, Glenn wrote:
>> That is true in a perfect world, but it is not like that, and the reality 
>> is
>> as I stated, that very few Blind users will migrate to Linux without
>> something familiar to use.
>> But you already use it, so why should you care if more users take to 
>> Linux?
>>
>> Glenn
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Alonzo Cuellar" <mariachiac@gmail.com>
>> To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system 
>> for
>> Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 4:38 PM
>> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>>
>>
>> I think the key bindings are fine. There is no trouble with them at all.
>> Always be able to expand your mind set. Even if little progress is made.
>> After all, you get more advantages from learning the way other screen
>> readers work.
>> I can see where the option might be useful, but if you don't learn it 
>> full
>> force and always stay trapped in the way jaws works, then you'll never
>> expand your horizons.
>> people come to linux expecting it to be something like windows. Its not 
>> and
>> it probably never will be similar to windows. Its made for you to 
>> explore,
>> etc.
>> I was forced in using linux due to an accident I had with my computer. 
>> That
>> was fine by me though. Ever since then I prefer the unix variances 
>> weather
>> is be linux or mac.
>> I'm no programmer by any means, but I do enjoy working with other 
>> operating
>> systems.
>> The argument that only techies spend the time to learn new keyboard 
>> commands
>> is always widely used. I consider that as an excuse. Everyone can learn 
>> how
>> to use a device weather it be a phone or computer. Maybe the person may 
>> have
>> difficulty and may not excel where in mastering it, but thats ok. You can
>> apply this to any situation.
>> If we were to stop learning… Then we would never excel and stay trapped 
>> in
>> the mind frame that this or that is to hard.
>> Learn while you still can. Once you get older it gets harder to learn and
>> thats where it might be a problem.
>>
>> Alonzo
>>
>>
>> On Sep 16, 2012, at 3:59 PM, Glenn <glennervin@cableone.net> wrote:
>>
>>> That is the kind of thinking that will keep Linux in the shadows.
>>> I teach people how to use screenreaders, and people have a hard enough
>>> time
>>> switching from the mouse to all these keyboard commands.
>>> When people begrudgingly learn JFW keyboard mappings to some degree, do
>>> you
>>> think they will willing go out to learn different key mappings?
>>> Only the techie types do that.
>>> Glenn
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
>>> To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system 
>>> for
>>> Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 3:39 PM
>>> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm not really to worried about JFW key mappings honestly. First it's
>>> sort of weird, but mainly if they can't get used to using different
>>> keys, they're never going to live on Linux, at least not in the cli.
>>> On 9/16/2012 2:34 PM, Glenn wrote:
>>>> The big one for SpeakUp would be for it to have the option to switch to
>>>> JFW
>>>> key mappings.
>>>> This will allow many people to switch to Linux easily.
>>>> Microsoft did this with MS Word, allowing people to use Word Perfect 
>>>> key
>>>> mappings.
>>>> I think this is the only way Linux will ever become any more popular to
>>>> screenreader users.
>>>> Glenn
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
>>>> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
>>>> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 1:17 PM
>>>> Subject: speakup todo?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello all:
>>>> I'm trying to transfer, and applying for scholarships and all that I'd
>>>> like to be able to make some contributions to projects that I can note.
>>>> I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I figured
>>>> I'd start by working on something I use almost daily. I'm curious then
>>>> if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup could have to it.
>>>> I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to
>>>> userspace--as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the
>>>> kernel for would be hardware speech (and since serial ports are dying
>>>> out that could be a dead point), and accessing the console directly. 
>>>> How
>>>> easy would it be then, to have speakup run in userspace, but access a
>>>> smaller cut-down version of itself in the kernel to provide the access
>>>> to the console we need?
>>>> We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. It
>>>> could return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it works
>>>> now--one byte is the color, and the other byte is the ascii value. The
>>>> sequence file would just iterate over the console's lines. I'm also
>>>> curious how we'd handle something like key presses like caps+u to move
>>>> up a line etc.
>>>>
>>>> If I'm way off here, I'd still like to help out if possible; is there a
>>>> todo list around, or stuff people would like to see done? If there are
>>>> people willing to answer questions from time to time in terms of the
>>>> kernel programming, since that's something I've not done before, I'm
>>>> game to start coding.
>>>>
>>>> Another question is then, how do people catch panics? Since I'm not
>>>> quite cool enough to write code that just works, I'm sure I'll be
>>>> dealing with panics, but I can't see them on the console and usually
>>>> it's when speakup goes boom anyway.
>>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Take care,
>>> Ty
>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
>>> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he
>>> that
>>> dares not reason is a slave.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> -- 
> Take care,
> Ty
> http://tds-solutions.net
> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he 
> that dares not reason is a slave.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 

Re: speakup todo?

[mk360]

     Well, I'm a speakup user and I use NVDA on windows and it uses some 
similar keys than speakup to review the text. I don't need JAWS keys and 
if I need to choose
I prefer the actual situation.
El 16-09-2012 19:44, Littlefield, Tyler escribió:
> OK. so you want keys likeys like Jaws's keybindings to work. so lets 
> say I bind up arrow to caps+u, down arrow to caps+o. How exactly do 
> you want someone to uh, move up and down in the terminal now? Lets now 
> bind caps+j and caps+l to left and right, respectively. Awesome, now I 
> can't move around and edit parts of my command, this is great. Lets 
> set up key bindings for highlight tracking, shall we? Well snap, Jaws 
> doesn't appear to have a tracking option that I can copy that keybind 
> for, wo is me... I'll need to leave that one alone.
>
> Speakup works a lot differently than Jaws does. You have screen review 
> commands, but Jaws lets you move up and down left and right through 
> text presented in windows, edit boxes etc. Making it where the user 
> could move up and down around the screen with the arrow keys kind of 
> kills programs that use those keys, like the handy editors, for example.
> Since you want these key bindings, would you mind clarifying how you 
> expect this to work?
> On 9/16/2012 4:42 PM, Glenn wrote:
>> I have tried to get folks to switch to Linux, but it is difficult,
>> as people like what is familiar to them.
>> The situation on the other list, the Orca list I think, was that I am on
>> digest on that list, and I did not reply to the thread subject, I'm 
>> not sure
>> how to do that from digest mode, which on that instance, was 
>> regarding key
>> bindings in Orca, but I wrote a new thread with a similar subject 
>> line, and
>> some folks thought it had nothing to do with that subject on that list.
>> But yes, I am trying to get the Linux community to wake up to this need.
>> In fact, in Windows, the program Window Eyes finally smartened up and 
>> used
>> JFW key bindings.
>> It may be easy for someone who knows how to make new key bindings, 
>> but not
>> for a new user.
>> If it is really fairly easy to make a new set of key bindings, then why
>> doesn't someone just do it, and make it an option for new users, like 
>> Window
>> Eyes did?
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jason Miller" <hobbgoblin79@gmail.com>
>> To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review 
>> system for
>> Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 5:13 PM
>> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>>
>>
>> Hello.
>>
>> Let me start by this first. You've been on several lists, bitching and
>> complaining about everyone switching to JFW keybindings. The first time
>> I saw it, you went to the wrong list to complain about something not
>> sharing bindings with JFW that wasn't even the right list. I said it
>> there, adn I'll say it here again. If not having JFW bindings was going
>> to be a killer for the blind, then things like Orca, Speakup, Emacs,
>> Voice Over, along with *coughs* Window Eyes, and NVDA on Windows
>> wouldn't exist. To put your argument to a rest, if what you said were
>> true, then why are so many people switching away from jaws, just
>> speaking alone of windows, and going to NVDA or Window Eyes, let alone
>> those that are migrating to other *nix based systems? I don't know what
>> kind of personal crusade you are on, but from what I've seen, this is
>> nothing more than you trying to troll.
>>
>> Secondly, like I said, he's been on several lists complaining about no
>> one in the linux world using the JFW based keybindings. This
>> conversation could go on forever, but it would be just feeding a troll.
>> If everyone here has noticed, he's hijacked Tyler's thread, just to stir
>> up trouble. He seems to do that elsewhere on other Linux accessibility
>> lists, and when someone points out a valid argument, he seems to get
>> frustrated, and go away.
>>
>> *shrugs* if you've really taught computers to the blind, then you would
>> understand that they are willing to learn what works. Not everyone needs
>> the windows world, and not everyone wants to stay in that ecosystem. You
>> don't go to every list, start complaining about how things should be
>> like windows, and JAWS, otherwise like I've told you before, only JAWS
>> would exist, and there would be no other accessibility programs out
>> there. Basically it comes down to this, and this is why I am not too
>> sure about what you say about teaching those with vision impairments how
>> to use technology. You teach someone who doesn't know different
>> techniques, teach them different systems that would fit their needs, and
>> you let them decide. You don't force a single way onto them, and go
>> everywhere else that isn't of that way to stir up trouble.
>>
>> Anyway, end of my rant towards this guy.
>>
>> On 09/16/2012 05:51 PM, Glenn wrote:
>>> Actually, it is this attitude among the sighted, that keeps most
>>> technology
>>> from being made accessible to the Blind.
>>> Wow.
>>> Glenn
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Alonzo Cuellar"<mariachiac@gmail.com>
>>> To: "Glenn"<glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review 
>>> system for
>>> Linux."<speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 4:38 PM
>>> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>>>
>>>
>>> I think the key bindings are fine. There is no trouble with them at 
>>> all.
>>> Always be able to expand your mind set. Even if little progress is 
>>> made.
>>> After all, you get more advantages from learning the way other screen
>>> readers work.
>>> I can see where the option might be useful, but if you don't learn 
>>> it full
>>> force and always stay trapped in the way jaws works, then you'll never
>>> expand your horizons.
>>> people come to linux expecting it to be something like windows. Its not
>>> and
>>> it probably never will be similar to windows. Its made for you to 
>>> explore,
>>> etc.
>>> I was forced in using linux due to an accident I had with my computer.
>>> That
>>> was fine by me though. Ever since then I prefer the unix variances 
>>> weather
>>> is be linux or mac.
>>> I'm no programmer by any means, but I do enjoy working with other
>>> operating
>>> systems.
>>> The argument that only techies spend the time to learn new keyboard
>>> commands
>>> is always widely used. I consider that as an excuse. Everyone can learn
>>> how
>>> to use a device weather it be a phone or computer. Maybe the person may
>>> have
>>> difficulty and may not excel where in mastering it, but thats ok. 
>>> You can
>>> apply this to any situation.
>>> If we were to stop learning… Then we would never excel and stay 
>>> trapped in
>>> the mind frame that this or that is to hard.
>>> Learn while you still can. Once you get older it gets harder to 
>>> learn and
>>> thats where it might be a problem.
>>>
>>> Alonzo
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sep 16, 2012, at 3:59 PM, Glenn<glennervin@cableone.net>  wrote:
>>>
>>>> That is the kind of thinking that will keep Linux in the shadows.
>>>> I teach people how to use screenreaders, and people have a hard enough
>>>> time
>>>> switching from the mouse to all these keyboard commands.
>>>> When people begrudgingly learn JFW keyboard mappings to some 
>>>> degree, do
>>>> you
>>>> think they will willing go out to learn different key mappings?
>>>> Only the techie types do that.
>>>> Glenn
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler"<tyler@tysdomain.com>
>>>> To: "Glenn"<glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review 
>>>> system for
>>>> Linux."<speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 3:39 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm not really to worried about JFW key mappings honestly. First it's
>>>> sort of weird, but mainly if they can't get used to using different
>>>> keys, they're never going to live on Linux, at least not in the cli.
>>>> On 9/16/2012 2:34 PM, Glenn wrote:
>>>>> The big one for SpeakUp would be for it to have the option to 
>>>>> switch to
>>>>> JFW
>>>>> key mappings.
>>>>> This will allow many people to switch to Linux easily.
>>>>> Microsoft did this with MS Word, allowing people to use Word 
>>>>> Perfect key
>>>>> mappings.
>>>>> I think this is the only way Linux will ever become any more 
>>>>> popular to
>>>>> screenreader users.
>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler"<tyler@tysdomain.com>
>>>>> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
>>>>> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 1:17 PM
>>>>> Subject: speakup todo?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello all:
>>>>> I'm trying to transfer, and applying for scholarships and all that 
>>>>> I'd
>>>>> like to be able to make some contributions to projects that I can 
>>>>> note.
>>>>> I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I 
>>>>> figured
>>>>> I'd start by working on something I use almost daily. I'm curious 
>>>>> then
>>>>> if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup could have to 
>>>>> it.
>>>>> I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to
>>>>> userspace--as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the
>>>>> kernel for would be hardware speech (and since serial ports are dying
>>>>> out that could be a dead point), and accessing the console 
>>>>> directly. How
>>>>> easy would it be then, to have speakup run in userspace, but access a
>>>>> smaller cut-down version of itself in the kernel to provide the 
>>>>> access
>>>>> to the console we need?
>>>>> We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. It
>>>>> could return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it works
>>>>> now--one byte is the color, and the other byte is the ascii value. 
>>>>> The
>>>>> sequence file would just iterate over the console's lines. I'm also
>>>>> curious how we'd handle something like key presses like caps+u to 
>>>>> move
>>>>> up a line etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I'm way off here, I'd still like to help out if possible; is 
>>>>> there a
>>>>> todo list around, or stuff people would like to see done? If there 
>>>>> are
>>>>> people willing to answer questions from time to time in terms of the
>>>>> kernel programming, since that's something I've not done before, I'm
>>>>> game to start coding.
>>>>>
>>>>> Another question is then, how do people catch panics? Since I'm not
>>>>> quite cool enough to write code that just works, I'm sure I'll be
>>>>> dealing with panics, but I can't see them on the console and usually
>>>>> it's when speakup goes boom anyway.
>>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> Take care,
>>>> Ty
>>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
>>>> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
>>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a 
>>>> fool; he
>>>> that
>>>> dares not reason is a slave.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Speakup mailing list
>>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Speakup mailing list
>>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>
>

Re: speakup todo?

[Glenn]

You wrote:
Now, on to your OS comment. Do you currently use Linux with Speakup?
Because this isn't something "less techy folks" are going to do. Yes, I
would love to see Linux as a viable option to replace Windows for blind
people, but it's not there and changing Speakups key bindings to work
more like Jaws isn't going to get it there.
* that is an untested opinion.
Glenn

On 9/16/2012 4:33 PM, Glenn wrote:
> I am referring to the attitude, not the result.
> The attitude here is that people either have to do it this way, or not at
> all.
> We all owe a lot to mostly sighted programmers, and some Blind ones too, 
> who
> wanted to make computers accessible to the Blind.
> Now that you are in, so to speak, why should you care if less techie folks
> get to use something other than windows?
> Some sighted folks think that it is nice if we can use a computer, but 
> they
> don't care enough to make it happen for us.
> We see this in equipment like cell phones.
> Most people think that we all can learn a bunch of unspoken commands to 
> use
> a cell phone.
> I can, but I sure don't wish to do that if I don't have to.
> So many folks, for example, will use a less functional phone like the 
> Haven,
> because it is totally accessible, rather than having a phone with 
> bluetooth
> or a camera.
> Now if phone makers cared enough to make all phones accessible like the
> Haven, then we could choose according to actual phone functions.
> Likewise, it would be nice if folks could try Linux based on its merits as
> an OS, but because they have invested a lot into learning JFW, and they 
> will
> never change, because that is the path of less resistance.
> And like I mentioned before, unless someone is techie enough to care about
> it, the extra work involved is not worth it, because folks don't 
> understand
> the benefits of an OS like Linux.
> Glenn
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
> To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for
> Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 5:12 PM
> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>
>
> No, htis isn't the attitude the sighted people have. Learning a new
> operating system requires just that, that you sit down and learn. Look
> at all the blind people jumping on the OSX band waggon and buying $1800
> shiny MacBooks. They learned those, and Voiceover's keys are nothing
> like Jaws's.
> On 9/16/2012 3:51 PM, Glenn wrote:
>> Actually, it is this attitude among the sighted, that keeps most
>> technology
>> from being made accessible to the Blind.
>> Wow.
>> Glenn
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Alonzo Cuellar" <mariachiac@gmail.com>
>> To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system 
>> for
>> Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 4:38 PM
>> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>>
>>
>> I think the key bindings are fine. There is no trouble with them at all.
>> Always be able to expand your mind set. Even if little progress is made.
>> After all, you get more advantages from learning the way other screen
>> readers work.
>> I can see where the option might be useful, but if you don't learn it 
>> full
>> force and always stay trapped in the way jaws works, then you'll never
>> expand your horizons.
>> people come to linux expecting it to be something like windows. Its not
>> and
>> it probably never will be similar to windows. Its made for you to 
>> explore,
>> etc.
>> I was forced in using linux due to an accident I had with my computer.
>> That
>> was fine by me though. Ever since then I prefer the unix variances 
>> weather
>> is be linux or mac.
>> I'm no programmer by any means, but I do enjoy working with other
>> operating
>> systems.
>> The argument that only techies spend the time to learn new keyboard
>> commands
>> is always widely used. I consider that as an excuse. Everyone can learn
>> how
>> to use a device weather it be a phone or computer. Maybe the person may
>> have
>> difficulty and may not excel where in mastering it, but thats ok. You can
>> apply this to any situation.
>> If we were to stop learning… Then we would never excel and stay trapped 
>> in
>> the mind frame that this or that is to hard.
>> Learn while you still can. Once you get older it gets harder to learn and
>> thats where it might be a problem.
>>
>> Alonzo
>>
>>
>> On Sep 16, 2012, at 3:59 PM, Glenn <glennervin@cableone.net> wrote:
>>
>>> That is the kind of thinking that will keep Linux in the shadows.
>>> I teach people how to use screenreaders, and people have a hard enough
>>> time
>>> switching from the mouse to all these keyboard commands.
>>> When people begrudgingly learn JFW keyboard mappings to some degree, do
>>> you
>>> think they will willing go out to learn different key mappings?
>>> Only the techie types do that.
>>> Glenn
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
>>> To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system
>>> for
>>> Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 3:39 PM
>>> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm not really to worried about JFW key mappings honestly. First it's
>>> sort of weird, but mainly if they can't get used to using different
>>> keys, they're never going to live on Linux, at least not in the cli.
>>> On 9/16/2012 2:34 PM, Glenn wrote:
>>>> The big one for SpeakUp would be for it to have the option to switch to
>>>> JFW
>>>> key mappings.
>>>> This will allow many people to switch to Linux easily.
>>>> Microsoft did this with MS Word, allowing people to use Word Perfect 
>>>> key
>>>> mappings.
>>>> I think this is the only way Linux will ever become any more popular to
>>>> screenreader users.
>>>> Glenn
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
>>>> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
>>>> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 1:17 PM
>>>> Subject: speakup todo?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello all:
>>>> I'm trying to transfer, and applying for scholarships and all that I'd
>>>> like to be able to make some contributions to projects that I can note.
>>>> I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I figured
>>>> I'd start by working on something I use almost daily. I'm curious then
>>>> if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup could have to it.
>>>> I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to
>>>> userspace--as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the
>>>> kernel for would be hardware speech (and since serial ports are dying
>>>> out that could be a dead point), and accessing the console directly. 
>>>> How
>>>> easy would it be then, to have speakup run in userspace, but access a
>>>> smaller cut-down version of itself in the kernel to provide the access
>>>> to the console we need?
>>>> We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. It
>>>> could return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it works
>>>> now--one byte is the color, and the other byte is the ascii value. The
>>>> sequence file would just iterate over the console's lines. I'm also
>>>> curious how we'd handle something like key presses like caps+u to move
>>>> up a line etc.
>>>>
>>>> If I'm way off here, I'd still like to help out if possible; is there a
>>>> todo list around, or stuff people would like to see done? If there are
>>>> people willing to answer questions from time to time in terms of the
>>>> kernel programming, since that's something I've not done before, I'm
>>>> game to start coding.
>>>>
>>>> Another question is then, how do people catch panics? Since I'm not
>>>> quite cool enough to write code that just works, I'm sure I'll be
>>>> dealing with panics, but I can't see them on the console and usually
>>>> it's when speakup goes boom anyway.
>>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Take care,
>>> Ty
>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
>>> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he
>>> that
>>> dares not reason is a slave.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>


-- 
Take care,
Ty
http://tds-solutions.net
The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that 
dares not reason is a slave.

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 

Re: speakup todo?

[Glenn]

If I knew how to do it, I would have done it myself for everyone else to 
benefit from.
But if it works in JFW, it should work in Speakup, by making a virtual 
cursor, like the Jaws cursor.
And this works in Windows in a terminal.
Glenn

 ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for 
Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 5:44 PM
Subject: Re: speakup todo?


OK. so you want keys likeys like Jaws's keybindings to work. so lets say
I bind up arrow to caps+u, down arrow to caps+o. How exactly do you want
someone to uh, move up and down in the terminal now? Lets now bind
caps+j and caps+l to left and right, respectively. Awesome, now I can't
move around and edit parts of my command, this is great. Lets set up key
bindings for highlight tracking, shall we? Well snap, Jaws doesn't
appear to have a tracking option that I can copy that keybind for, wo is
me... I'll need to leave that one alone.

Speakup works a lot differently than Jaws does. You have screen review
commands, but Jaws lets you move up and down left and right through text
presented in windows, edit boxes etc. Making it where the user could
move up and down around the screen with the arrow keys kind of kills
programs that use those keys, like the handy editors, for example.
Since you want these key bindings, would you mind clarifying how you
expect this to work?
On 9/16/2012 4:42 PM, Glenn wrote:
> I have tried to get folks to switch to Linux, but it is difficult,
> as people like what is familiar to them.
> The situation on the other list, the Orca list I think, was that I am on
> digest on that list, and I did not reply to the thread subject, I'm not 
> sure
> how to do that from digest mode, which on that instance, was regarding key
> bindings in Orca, but I wrote a new thread with a similar subject line, 
> and
> some folks thought it had nothing to do with that subject on that list.
> But yes, I am trying to get the Linux community to wake up to this need.
> In fact, in Windows, the program Window Eyes finally smartened up and used
> JFW key bindings.
> It may be easy for someone who knows how to make new key bindings, but not
> for a new user.
> If it is really fairly easy to make a new set of key bindings, then why
> doesn't someone just do it, and make it an option for new users, like 
> Window
> Eyes did?
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jason Miller" <hobbgoblin79@gmail.com>
> To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for
> Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 5:13 PM
> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>
>
> Hello.
>
> Let me start by this first. You've been on several lists, bitching and
> complaining about everyone switching to JFW keybindings. The first time
> I saw it, you went to the wrong list to complain about something not
> sharing bindings with JFW that wasn't even the right list. I said it
> there, adn I'll say it here again. If not having JFW bindings was going
> to be a killer for the blind, then things like Orca, Speakup, Emacs,
> Voice Over, along with *coughs* Window Eyes, and NVDA on Windows
> wouldn't exist. To put your argument to a rest, if what you said were
> true, then why are so many people switching away from jaws, just
> speaking alone of windows, and going to NVDA or Window Eyes, let alone
> those that are migrating to other *nix based systems? I don't know what
> kind of personal crusade you are on, but from what I've seen, this is
> nothing more than you trying to troll.
>
> Secondly, like I said, he's been on several lists complaining about no
> one in the linux world using the JFW based keybindings. This
> conversation could go on forever, but it would be just feeding a troll.
> If everyone here has noticed, he's hijacked Tyler's thread, just to stir
> up trouble. He seems to do that elsewhere on other Linux accessibility
> lists, and when someone points out a valid argument, he seems to get
> frustrated, and go away.
>
> *shrugs* if you've really taught computers to the blind, then you would
> understand that they are willing to learn what works. Not everyone needs
> the windows world, and not everyone wants to stay in that ecosystem. You
> don't go to every list, start complaining about how things should be
> like windows, and JAWS, otherwise like I've told you before, only JAWS
> would exist, and there would be no other accessibility programs out
> there. Basically it comes down to this, and this is why I am not too
> sure about what you say about teaching those with vision impairments how
> to use technology. You teach someone who doesn't know different
> techniques, teach them different systems that would fit their needs, and
> you let them decide. You don't force a single way onto them, and go
> everywhere else that isn't of that way to stir up trouble.
>
> Anyway, end of my rant towards this guy.
>
> On 09/16/2012 05:51 PM, Glenn wrote:
>> Actually, it is this attitude among the sighted, that keeps most
>> technology
>> from being made accessible to the Blind.
>> Wow.
>> Glenn
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Alonzo Cuellar"<mariachiac@gmail.com>
>> To: "Glenn"<glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for
>> Linux."<speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 4:38 PM
>> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>>
>>
>> I think the key bindings are fine. There is no trouble with them at all.
>> Always be able to expand your mind set. Even if little progress is made.
>> After all, you get more advantages from learning the way other screen
>> readers work.
>> I can see where the option might be useful, but if you don't learn it 
>> full
>> force and always stay trapped in the way jaws works, then you'll never
>> expand your horizons.
>> people come to linux expecting it to be something like windows. Its not
>> and
>> it probably never will be similar to windows. Its made for you to 
>> explore,
>> etc.
>> I was forced in using linux due to an accident I had with my computer.
>> That
>> was fine by me though. Ever since then I prefer the unix variances 
>> weather
>> is be linux or mac.
>> I'm no programmer by any means, but I do enjoy working with other
>> operating
>> systems.
>> The argument that only techies spend the time to learn new keyboard
>> commands
>> is always widely used. I consider that as an excuse. Everyone can learn
>> how
>> to use a device weather it be a phone or computer. Maybe the person may
>> have
>> difficulty and may not excel where in mastering it, but thats ok. You can
>> apply this to any situation.
>> If we were to stop learning… Then we would never excel and stay trapped 
>> in
>> the mind frame that this or that is to hard.
>> Learn while you still can. Once you get older it gets harder to learn and
>> thats where it might be a problem.
>>
>> Alonzo
>>
>>
>> On Sep 16, 2012, at 3:59 PM, Glenn<glennervin@cableone.net>  wrote:
>>
>>> That is the kind of thinking that will keep Linux in the shadows.
>>> I teach people how to use screenreaders, and people have a hard enough
>>> time
>>> switching from the mouse to all these keyboard commands.
>>> When people begrudgingly learn JFW keyboard mappings to some degree, do
>>> you
>>> think they will willing go out to learn different key mappings?
>>> Only the techie types do that.
>>> Glenn
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler"<tyler@tysdomain.com>
>>> To: "Glenn"<glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system 
>>> for
>>> Linux."<speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 3:39 PM
>>> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm not really to worried about JFW key mappings honestly. First it's
>>> sort of weird, but mainly if they can't get used to using different
>>> keys, they're never going to live on Linux, at least not in the cli.
>>> On 9/16/2012 2:34 PM, Glenn wrote:
>>>> The big one for SpeakUp would be for it to have the option to switch to
>>>> JFW
>>>> key mappings.
>>>> This will allow many people to switch to Linux easily.
>>>> Microsoft did this with MS Word, allowing people to use Word Perfect 
>>>> key
>>>> mappings.
>>>> I think this is the only way Linux will ever become any more popular to
>>>> screenreader users.
>>>> Glenn
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler"<tyler@tysdomain.com>
>>>> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
>>>> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 1:17 PM
>>>> Subject: speakup todo?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello all:
>>>> I'm trying to transfer, and applying for scholarships and all that I'd
>>>> like to be able to make some contributions to projects that I can note.
>>>> I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I figured
>>>> I'd start by working on something I use almost daily. I'm curious then
>>>> if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup could have to it.
>>>> I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to
>>>> userspace--as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the
>>>> kernel for would be hardware speech (and since serial ports are dying
>>>> out that could be a dead point), and accessing the console directly. 
>>>> How
>>>> easy would it be then, to have speakup run in userspace, but access a
>>>> smaller cut-down version of itself in the kernel to provide the access
>>>> to the console we need?
>>>> We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. It
>>>> could return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it works
>>>> now--one byte is the color, and the other byte is the ascii value. The
>>>> sequence file would just iterate over the console's lines. I'm also
>>>> curious how we'd handle something like key presses like caps+u to move
>>>> up a line etc.
>>>>
>>>> If I'm way off here, I'd still like to help out if possible; is there a
>>>> todo list around, or stuff people would like to see done? If there are
>>>> people willing to answer questions from time to time in terms of the
>>>> kernel programming, since that's something I've not done before, I'm
>>>> game to start coding.
>>>>
>>>> Another question is then, how do people catch panics? Since I'm not
>>>> quite cool enough to write code that just works, I'm sure I'll be
>>>> dealing with panics, but I can't see them on the console and usually
>>>> it's when speakup goes boom anyway.
>>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Take care,
>>> Ty
>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
>>> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he
>>> that
>>> dares not reason is a slave.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>


-- 
Take care,
Ty
http://tds-solutions.net
The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that 
dares not reason is a slave.

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 

Re: speakup todo?

[Littlefield, Tyler]

I'm going to throw this out there, then I'm done as far as this 
highjacking of the thread is concerned.

You keep asking for JFW keybindings for Speakup because well, because 
less techy people want to use Linux apparently, and besides the fact 
that it'd break how Speakup works, it'd also break everything else like 
navigation in the terminal, editors etc. The thing that I really want to 
get across, since you clearly don't use speakup much is that the cli is 
a realm where you type in commands and get feedback, sometimes run 
ncurses based apps, but I really don't remember the last time I ran 
something interactive with the exception of emacs. This means that while 
you might save those poor souls from learning complicated keybindings 
like caps+u,o,j,l etc they still have to learn commands, as well as a 
new operating system.

You also make a point about Linux picking up in popularity with the 
introduction of a GUI; I will give you that point, but you're arguing 
over oranges and apples here. You want a cli reader to be made uh, 
easier to use I guess with keybindings that are jaws-like, but you 
mention the whole "windows appeal," which last I checked doesn't include 
a cli.

You also mention a virtual cursor. I'm sorry, but I don't want to 
activate my Speakup Cursor every time I want to review text, and then 
activate my PC cursor when I want to do what my arrow keys actually do. 
This is a lot of effort, a lot of time wasted and frankly you get 
nothing out of it.

 >* I don't like to see folks who cannot afford it to have to buy a new
 >computer because Windows stops supporting the OS, and also having to 
buy and
 >expensive screenreader all the time.
It's Microsoft that stops supporting the OS, and you don't need to buy a 
new computer. Windows seven runs on pretty bad hardware, and there were 
plenty of people that upgraded from XP to seven on their current 
hardware. It's also worth noting that Microsoft has had Windows XP out 
for more than 7+ years now, and they're just now trying to stop 
supporting it. As for paying money for a screen reader, I urge you to go 
check out NVDA. Granted you'll have the NVDA list to troll about 
JFW-like keybindings, and for that I'm sorry for the NVDA people, but 
it's free and if you can wrap your head around some new keyboard 
commands, you might just be amazed!
On 9/16/2012 4:48 PM, Glenn wrote:
> And if this attitude prevails, then you will always be in a small club,
> maybe you want it that way though.
> But keep in mind that Linux would have not even become as popular to the
> sighted if it would not have taken on a windows-like appeal.
> Glenn
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alonzo Cuellar" <mariachiac@gmail.com>
> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 5:24 PM
> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>
>
> I agree with Jason and tyler. You have to do whats necessary to learn an OS.
> You either take it by the horns and see what you can accomplish or forget
> it. Linux may not be an all purpose desktop, but for those who are willing
> to use it I'm sure become rewarded later.
> SAme applies for voiceover and the mac. I had no idea how to use it. It was
> just trial and error with me and my brother. Now I can use it just fine.
>
> Alonzo
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 16, 2012, at 5:15 PM, "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
> wrote:
>
>>> But you already use it, so why should you care if more users take to
>>> Linux?
>> I really don't either way. People are going to use Linux because they want
>> to, probably because they want to learn. Linux is not an all-purpose
>> desktop; ever tried doing your banking from the cli? It's not something
>> for the end-user. Sure we have projects like Vinux--where we ship out huge
>> bloated cds with everything in the ubuntu repo that can fit on it, but
>> even that's not an all-purpose desktop, even though people swear by it.
>>
>> My point though was that by learning Linux (and if you're using speakup
>> you're using the cli), you have to learn what comes with it. Whether
>> that's how to set up and configure your cli apps, or how to use the screen
>> reader. Whatever reader you go with, even NVDA vs Jaws or Voiceover
>> requires you learn something new, and the shift from Windows to OSX and
>> Jaws/NVDA to Voiceover is quite drastic, and people still manage to learn
>> it without jaws keybindings.
>> On 9/16/2012 3:48 PM, Glenn wrote:
>>> That is true in a perfect world, but it is not like that, and the reality
>>> is
>>> as I stated, that very few Blind users will migrate to Linux without
>>> something familiar to use.
>>> But you already use it, so why should you care if more users take to
>>> Linux?
>>>
>>> Glenn
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Alonzo Cuellar" <mariachiac@gmail.com>
>>> To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system
>>> for
>>> Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 4:38 PM
>>> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>>>
>>>
>>> I think the key bindings are fine. There is no trouble with them at all.
>>> Always be able to expand your mind set. Even if little progress is made.
>>> After all, you get more advantages from learning the way other screen
>>> readers work.
>>> I can see where the option might be useful, but if you don't learn it
>>> full
>>> force and always stay trapped in the way jaws works, then you'll never
>>> expand your horizons.
>>> people come to linux expecting it to be something like windows. Its not
>>> and
>>> it probably never will be similar to windows. Its made for you to
>>> explore,
>>> etc.
>>> I was forced in using linux due to an accident I had with my computer.
>>> That
>>> was fine by me though. Ever since then I prefer the unix variances
>>> weather
>>> is be linux or mac.
>>> I'm no programmer by any means, but I do enjoy working with other
>>> operating
>>> systems.
>>> The argument that only techies spend the time to learn new keyboard
>>> commands
>>> is always widely used. I consider that as an excuse. Everyone can learn
>>> how
>>> to use a device weather it be a phone or computer. Maybe the person may
>>> have
>>> difficulty and may not excel where in mastering it, but thats ok. You can
>>> apply this to any situation.
>>> If we were to stop learning… Then we would never excel and stay trapped
>>> in
>>> the mind frame that this or that is to hard.
>>> Learn while you still can. Once you get older it gets harder to learn and
>>> thats where it might be a problem.
>>>
>>> Alonzo
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sep 16, 2012, at 3:59 PM, Glenn <glennervin@cableone.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> That is the kind of thinking that will keep Linux in the shadows.
>>>> I teach people how to use screenreaders, and people have a hard enough
>>>> time
>>>> switching from the mouse to all these keyboard commands.
>>>> When people begrudgingly learn JFW keyboard mappings to some degree, do
>>>> you
>>>> think they will willing go out to learn different key mappings?
>>>> Only the techie types do that.
>>>> Glenn
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
>>>> To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system
>>>> for
>>>> Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 3:39 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm not really to worried about JFW key mappings honestly. First it's
>>>> sort of weird, but mainly if they can't get used to using different
>>>> keys, they're never going to live on Linux, at least not in the cli.
>>>> On 9/16/2012 2:34 PM, Glenn wrote:
>>>>> The big one for SpeakUp would be for it to have the option to switch to
>>>>> JFW
>>>>> key mappings.
>>>>> This will allow many people to switch to Linux easily.
>>>>> Microsoft did this with MS Word, allowing people to use Word Perfect
>>>>> key
>>>>> mappings.
>>>>> I think this is the only way Linux will ever become any more popular to
>>>>> screenreader users.
>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
>>>>> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
>>>>> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 1:17 PM
>>>>> Subject: speakup todo?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello all:
>>>>> I'm trying to transfer, and applying for scholarships and all that I'd
>>>>> like to be able to make some contributions to projects that I can note.
>>>>> I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I figured
>>>>> I'd start by working on something I use almost daily. I'm curious then
>>>>> if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup could have to it.
>>>>> I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to
>>>>> userspace--as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the
>>>>> kernel for would be hardware speech (and since serial ports are dying
>>>>> out that could be a dead point), and accessing the console directly.
>>>>> How
>>>>> easy would it be then, to have speakup run in userspace, but access a
>>>>> smaller cut-down version of itself in the kernel to provide the access
>>>>> to the console we need?
>>>>> We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. It
>>>>> could return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it works
>>>>> now--one byte is the color, and the other byte is the ascii value. The
>>>>> sequence file would just iterate over the console's lines. I'm also
>>>>> curious how we'd handle something like key presses like caps+u to move
>>>>> up a line etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I'm way off here, I'd still like to help out if possible; is there a
>>>>> todo list around, or stuff people would like to see done? If there are
>>>>> people willing to answer questions from time to time in terms of the
>>>>> kernel programming, since that's something I've not done before, I'm
>>>>> game to start coding.
>>>>>
>>>>> Another question is then, how do people catch panics? Since I'm not
>>>>> quite cool enough to write code that just works, I'm sure I'll be
>>>>> dealing with panics, but I can't see them on the console and usually
>>>>> it's when speakup goes boom anyway.
>>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> Take care,
>>>> Ty
>>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
>>>> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
>>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he
>>>> that
>>>> dares not reason is a slave.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Speakup mailing list
>>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Speakup mailing list
>>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>> -- 
>> Take care,
>> Ty
>> http://tds-solutions.net
>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
>> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he
>> that dares not reason is a slave.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup


-- 
Take care,
Ty
http://tds-solutions.net
The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave.

Re: speakup todo?

[Rob Hudson]

You already have sort of a virtual cursor thingy, with the Screen program. 
It's called copy mode. I'm not sure what else you can do that's like it.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for 
Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 5:56 PM
Subject: Re: speakup todo?


I'm going to throw this out there, then I'm done as far as this
highjacking of the thread is concerned.

You keep asking for JFW keybindings for Speakup because well, because
less techy people want to use Linux apparently, and besides the fact
that it'd break how Speakup works, it'd also break everything else like
navigation in the terminal, editors etc. The thing that I really want to
get across, since you clearly don't use speakup much is that the cli is
a realm where you type in commands and get feedback, sometimes run
ncurses based apps, but I really don't remember the last time I ran
something interactive with the exception of emacs. This means that while
you might save those poor souls from learning complicated keybindings
like caps+u,o,j,l etc they still have to learn commands, as well as a
new operating system.

You also make a point about Linux picking up in popularity with the
introduction of a GUI; I will give you that point, but you're arguing
over oranges and apples here. You want a cli reader to be made uh,
easier to use I guess with keybindings that are jaws-like, but you
mention the whole "windows appeal," which last I checked doesn't include
a cli.

You also mention a virtual cursor. I'm sorry, but I don't want to
activate my Speakup Cursor every time I want to review text, and then
activate my PC cursor when I want to do what my arrow keys actually do.
This is a lot of effort, a lot of time wasted and frankly you get
nothing out of it.

 >* I don't like to see folks who cannot afford it to have to buy a new
 >computer because Windows stops supporting the OS, and also having to
buy and
 >expensive screenreader all the time.
It's Microsoft that stops supporting the OS, and you don't need to buy a
new computer. Windows seven runs on pretty bad hardware, and there were
plenty of people that upgraded from XP to seven on their current
hardware. It's also worth noting that Microsoft has had Windows XP out
for more than 7+ years now, and they're just now trying to stop
supporting it. As for paying money for a screen reader, I urge you to go
check out NVDA. Granted you'll have the NVDA list to troll about
JFW-like keybindings, and for that I'm sorry for the NVDA people, but
it's free and if you can wrap your head around some new keyboard
commands, you might just be amazed!
On 9/16/2012 4:48 PM, Glenn wrote:
> And if this attitude prevails, then you will always be in a small club,
> maybe you want it that way though.
> But keep in mind that Linux would have not even become as popular to the
> sighted if it would not have taken on a windows-like appeal.
> Glenn
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alonzo Cuellar" <mariachiac@gmail.com>
> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." 
> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 5:24 PM
> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>
>
> I agree with Jason and tyler. You have to do whats necessary to learn an 
> OS.
> You either take it by the horns and see what you can accomplish or forget
> it. Linux may not be an all purpose desktop, but for those who are willing
> to use it I'm sure become rewarded later.
> SAme applies for voiceover and the mac. I had no idea how to use it. It 
> was
> just trial and error with me and my brother. Now I can use it just fine.
>
> Alonzo
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 16, 2012, at 5:15 PM, "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
> wrote:
>
>>> But you already use it, so why should you care if more users take to
>>> Linux?
>> I really don't either way. People are going to use Linux because they 
>> want
>> to, probably because they want to learn. Linux is not an all-purpose
>> desktop; ever tried doing your banking from the cli? It's not something
>> for the end-user. Sure we have projects like Vinux--where we ship out 
>> huge
>> bloated cds with everything in the ubuntu repo that can fit on it, but
>> even that's not an all-purpose desktop, even though people swear by it.
>>
>> My point though was that by learning Linux (and if you're using speakup
>> you're using the cli), you have to learn what comes with it. Whether
>> that's how to set up and configure your cli apps, or how to use the 
>> screen
>> reader. Whatever reader you go with, even NVDA vs Jaws or Voiceover
>> requires you learn something new, and the shift from Windows to OSX and
>> Jaws/NVDA to Voiceover is quite drastic, and people still manage to learn
>> it without jaws keybindings.
>> On 9/16/2012 3:48 PM, Glenn wrote:
>>> That is true in a perfect world, but it is not like that, and the 
>>> reality
>>> is
>>> as I stated, that very few Blind users will migrate to Linux without
>>> something familiar to use.
>>> But you already use it, so why should you care if more users take to
>>> Linux?
>>>
>>> Glenn
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Alonzo Cuellar" <mariachiac@gmail.com>
>>> To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system
>>> for
>>> Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 4:38 PM
>>> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>>>
>>>
>>> I think the key bindings are fine. There is no trouble with them at all.
>>> Always be able to expand your mind set. Even if little progress is made.
>>> After all, you get more advantages from learning the way other screen
>>> readers work.
>>> I can see where the option might be useful, but if you don't learn it
>>> full
>>> force and always stay trapped in the way jaws works, then you'll never
>>> expand your horizons.
>>> people come to linux expecting it to be something like windows. Its not
>>> and
>>> it probably never will be similar to windows. Its made for you to
>>> explore,
>>> etc.
>>> I was forced in using linux due to an accident I had with my computer.
>>> That
>>> was fine by me though. Ever since then I prefer the unix variances
>>> weather
>>> is be linux or mac.
>>> I'm no programmer by any means, but I do enjoy working with other
>>> operating
>>> systems.
>>> The argument that only techies spend the time to learn new keyboard
>>> commands
>>> is always widely used. I consider that as an excuse. Everyone can learn
>>> how
>>> to use a device weather it be a phone or computer. Maybe the person may
>>> have
>>> difficulty and may not excel where in mastering it, but thats ok. You 
>>> can
>>> apply this to any situation.
>>> If we were to stop learning… Then we would never excel and stay trapped
>>> in
>>> the mind frame that this or that is to hard.
>>> Learn while you still can. Once you get older it gets harder to learn 
>>> and
>>> thats where it might be a problem.
>>>
>>> Alonzo
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sep 16, 2012, at 3:59 PM, Glenn <glennervin@cableone.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> That is the kind of thinking that will keep Linux in the shadows.
>>>> I teach people how to use screenreaders, and people have a hard enough
>>>> time
>>>> switching from the mouse to all these keyboard commands.
>>>> When people begrudgingly learn JFW keyboard mappings to some degree, do
>>>> you
>>>> think they will willing go out to learn different key mappings?
>>>> Only the techie types do that.
>>>> Glenn
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
>>>> To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system
>>>> for
>>>> Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 3:39 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm not really to worried about JFW key mappings honestly. First it's
>>>> sort of weird, but mainly if they can't get used to using different
>>>> keys, they're never going to live on Linux, at least not in the cli.
>>>> On 9/16/2012 2:34 PM, Glenn wrote:
>>>>> The big one for SpeakUp would be for it to have the option to switch 
>>>>> to
>>>>> JFW
>>>>> key mappings.
>>>>> This will allow many people to switch to Linux easily.
>>>>> Microsoft did this with MS Word, allowing people to use Word Perfect
>>>>> key
>>>>> mappings.
>>>>> I think this is the only way Linux will ever become any more popular 
>>>>> to
>>>>> screenreader users.
>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
>>>>> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
>>>>> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 1:17 PM
>>>>> Subject: speakup todo?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello all:
>>>>> I'm trying to transfer, and applying for scholarships and all that I'd
>>>>> like to be able to make some contributions to projects that I can 
>>>>> note.
>>>>> I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I 
>>>>> figured
>>>>> I'd start by working on something I use almost daily. I'm curious then
>>>>> if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup could have to it.
>>>>> I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to
>>>>> userspace--as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the
>>>>> kernel for would be hardware speech (and since serial ports are dying
>>>>> out that could be a dead point), and accessing the console directly.
>>>>> How
>>>>> easy would it be then, to have speakup run in userspace, but access a
>>>>> smaller cut-down version of itself in the kernel to provide the access
>>>>> to the console we need?
>>>>> We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. It
>>>>> could return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it works
>>>>> now--one byte is the color, and the other byte is the ascii value. The
>>>>> sequence file would just iterate over the console's lines. I'm also
>>>>> curious how we'd handle something like key presses like caps+u to move
>>>>> up a line etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I'm way off here, I'd still like to help out if possible; is there 
>>>>> a
>>>>> todo list around, or stuff people would like to see done? If there are
>>>>> people willing to answer questions from time to time in terms of the
>>>>> kernel programming, since that's something I've not done before, I'm
>>>>> game to start coding.
>>>>>
>>>>> Another question is then, how do people catch panics? Since I'm not
>>>>> quite cool enough to write code that just works, I'm sure I'll be
>>>>> dealing with panics, but I can't see them on the console and usually
>>>>> it's when speakup goes boom anyway.
>>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> Take care,
>>>> Ty
>>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
>>>> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
>>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he
>>>> that
>>>> dares not reason is a slave.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Speakup mailing list
>>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Speakup mailing list
>>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>> -- 
>> Take care,
>> Ty
>> http://tds-solutions.net
>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
>> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he
>> that dares not reason is a slave.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup


-- 
Take care,
Ty
http://tds-solutions.net
The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that 
dares not reason is a slave.

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

RE: speakup todo?

[Albert Sten-Clanton]

Agreed.  Plus, why screw up key mapping that's already decent?  I had an
easier time because the keys are a lot like ASAP was for DOS, but it would
have been easy enough even without that.

Al 

-----Original Message-----
From: Speakup [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca] On Behalf Of
Littlefield, Tyler
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 4:39 PM
To: Glenn; Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: speakup todo?

I'm not really to worried about JFW key mappings honestly. First it's sort
of weird, but mainly if they can't get used to using different keys, they're
never going to live on Linux, at least not in the cli.
On 9/16/2012 2:34 PM, Glenn wrote:
> The big one for SpeakUp would be for it to have the option to switch 
> to JFW key mappings.
> This will allow many people to switch to Linux easily.
> Microsoft did this with MS Word, allowing people to use Word Perfect 
> key mappings.
> I think this is the only way Linux will ever become any more popular 
> to screenreader users.
> Glenn
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." 
> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 1:17 PM
> Subject: speakup todo?
>
>
> Hello all:
> I'm trying to transfer, and applying for scholarships and all that I'd 
> like to be able to make some contributions to projects that I can note.
> I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I 
> figured I'd start by working on something I use almost daily. I'm 
> curious then if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup could
have to it.
> I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to 
> userspace--as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the 
> kernel for would be hardware speech (and since serial ports are dying 
> out that could be a dead point), and accessing the console directly. 
> How easy would it be then, to have speakup run in userspace, but 
> access a smaller cut-down version of itself in the kernel to provide 
> the access to the console we need?
> We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. It 
> could return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it works 
> now--one byte is the color, and the other byte is the ascii value. The 
> sequence file would just iterate over the console's lines. I'm also 
> curious how we'd handle something like key presses like caps+u to move 
> up a line etc.
>
> If I'm way off here, I'd still like to help out if possible; is there 
> a todo list around, or stuff people would like to see done? If there 
> are people willing to answer questions from time to time in terms of 
> the kernel programming, since that's something I've not done before, 
> I'm game to start coding.
>
> Another question is then, how do people catch panics? Since I'm not 
> quite cool enough to write code that just works, I'm sure I'll be 
> dealing with panics, but I can't see them on the console and usually 
> it's when speakup goes boom anyway.
>


--
Take care,
Ty
http://tds-solutions.net
The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that
dares not reason is a slave.

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
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RE: speakup todo?

[Albert Sten-Clanton]

I disagree.  If Speakup's keys were hard to learn, I'd give it more
credence, but it took little time to learn the keys I use most often.
Certainly, I'm glad enough that a number of keystrokes that work in Windows
also work with the GUI in Linux.  The Speakup keys are a lot like the ones
ASAP used, my favorite DOS screen reader.  If ASAW had worked out, maybe my
transition to Linux would have been even easier.  

Al 

-----Original Message-----
From: Speakup [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca] On Behalf Of Glenn
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 4:59 PM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: speakup todo?

That is the kind of thinking that will keep Linux in the shadows.
I teach people how to use screenreaders, and people have a hard enough time
switching from the mouse to all these keyboard commands.
When people begrudgingly learn JFW keyboard mappings to some degree, do you
think they will willing go out to learn different key mappings?
Only the techie types do that.
Glenn

----- Original Message -----
From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for
Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 3:39 PM
Subject: Re: speakup todo?


I'm not really to worried about JFW key mappings honestly. First it's sort
of weird, but mainly if they can't get used to using different keys, they're
never going to live on Linux, at least not in the cli.
On 9/16/2012 2:34 PM, Glenn wrote:
> The big one for SpeakUp would be for it to have the option to switch 
> to JFW key mappings.
> This will allow many people to switch to Linux easily.
> Microsoft did this with MS Word, allowing people to use Word Perfect 
> key mappings.
> I think this is the only way Linux will ever become any more popular 
> to screenreader users.
> Glenn
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." 
> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 1:17 PM
> Subject: speakup todo?
>
>
> Hello all:
> I'm trying to transfer, and applying for scholarships and all that I'd 
> like to be able to make some contributions to projects that I can note.
> I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I 
> figured I'd start by working on something I use almost daily. I'm 
> curious then if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup could
have to it.
> I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to 
> userspace--as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the 
> kernel for would be hardware speech (and since serial ports are dying 
> out that could be a dead point), and accessing the console directly. 
> How easy would it be then, to have speakup run in userspace, but 
> access a smaller cut-down version of itself in the kernel to provide 
> the access to the console we need?
> We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. It 
> could return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it works 
> now--one byte is the color, and the other byte is the ascii value. The 
> sequence file would just iterate over the console's lines. I'm also 
> curious how we'd handle something like key presses like caps+u to move 
> up a line etc.
>
> If I'm way off here, I'd still like to help out if possible; is there 
> a todo list around, or stuff people would like to see done? If there 
> are people willing to answer questions from time to time in terms of 
> the kernel programming, since that's something I've not done before, 
> I'm game to start coding.
>
> Another question is then, how do people catch panics? Since I'm not 
> quite cool enough to write code that just works, I'm sure I'll be 
> dealing with panics, but I can't see them on the console and usually 
> it's when speakup goes boom anyway.
>


--
Take care,
Ty
http://tds-solutions.net
The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that
dares not reason is a slave.

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

RE: speakup todo?

[Albert Sten-Clanton]

Maybe I'm missing something because it's too close to my bed time, but why
is this thread comparing blind people using Windows with blind people using
Speakup, rather than use of JFW in Windows with Orca and one of the Linux
desktops?  Somebody averse to the command line would stick to Orca, would he
or she not?  

I'd think a better comparison would be between the Windows command prompt
and a Linux console.  (I've used that of XP, but don't know the quality of
whatever command prompt Windows 7 or 8 has.) I gather the Windows command
prompt has more to it than it usually gets credited for, but I find using
JFW in it is of minimal help.  (I found Orca to be like that in a terminal;
I don't know if that's still true.) In contrast, Speakup in the Linux
console is much more usable.  The keys are easy to learn.  Why would I want
to change those to emulate JFW keystrokes?

Incidentally, I don't mind if Orca borrows the best JFW has to offer, but
that should only be for making Orca the best it can be, not adopting more of
JFW than is truly better.  If people can learn the Mac and VoiceOver, as
others have noted, it seems bizarre to me to suppose that they can't do as
well learning Linux.  

Just my fake dime's worth.

Al 

-----Original Message-----
From: Speakup [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca] On Behalf Of Glenn
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 6:50 PM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: speakup todo?

You wrote:
Now, on to your OS comment. Do you currently use Linux with Speakup?
Because this isn't something "less techy folks" are going to do. Yes, I
would love to see Linux as a viable option to replace Windows for blind
people, but it's not there and changing Speakups key bindings to work more
like Jaws isn't going to get it there.
* that is an untested opinion.
Glenn

On 9/16/2012 4:33 PM, Glenn wrote:
> I am referring to the attitude, not the result.
> The attitude here is that people either have to do it this way, or not 
> at all.
> We all owe a lot to mostly sighted programmers, and some Blind ones 
> too, who wanted to make computers accessible to the Blind.
> Now that you are in, so to speak, why should you care if less techie 
> folks get to use something other than windows?
> Some sighted folks think that it is nice if we can use a computer, but 
> they don't care enough to make it happen for us.
> We see this in equipment like cell phones.
> Most people think that we all can learn a bunch of unspoken commands 
> to use a cell phone.
> I can, but I sure don't wish to do that if I don't have to.
> So many folks, for example, will use a less functional phone like the 
> Haven, because it is totally accessible, rather than having a phone 
> with bluetooth or a camera.
> Now if phone makers cared enough to make all phones accessible like 
> the Haven, then we could choose according to actual phone functions.
> Likewise, it would be nice if folks could try Linux based on its 
> merits as an OS, but because they have invested a lot into learning 
> JFW, and they will never change, because that is the path of less 
> resistance.
> And like I mentioned before, unless someone is techie enough to care 
> about it, the extra work involved is not worth it, because folks don't 
> understand the benefits of an OS like Linux.
> Glenn
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
> To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system 
> for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 5:12 PM
> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>
>
> No, htis isn't the attitude the sighted people have. Learning a new 
> operating system requires just that, that you sit down and learn. Look 
> at all the blind people jumping on the OSX band waggon and buying 
> $1800 shiny MacBooks. They learned those, and Voiceover's keys are 
> nothing like Jaws's.
> On 9/16/2012 3:51 PM, Glenn wrote:
>> Actually, it is this attitude among the sighted, that keeps most 
>> technology from being made accessible to the Blind.
>> Wow.
>> Glenn
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Alonzo Cuellar" <mariachiac@gmail.com>
>> To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review 
>> system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 4:38 PM
>> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>>
>>
>> I think the key bindings are fine. There is no trouble with them at all.
>> Always be able to expand your mind set. Even if little progress is made.
>> After all, you get more advantages from learning the way other screen
>> readers work.
>> I can see where the option might be useful, but if you don't learn it 
>> full
>> force and always stay trapped in the way jaws works, then you'll never
>> expand your horizons.
>> people come to linux expecting it to be something like windows. Its not
>> and
>> it probably never will be similar to windows. Its made for you to 
>> explore,
>> etc.
>> I was forced in using linux due to an accident I had with my computer.
>> That
>> was fine by me though. Ever since then I prefer the unix variances 
>> weather
>> is be linux or mac.
>> I'm no programmer by any means, but I do enjoy working with other
>> operating
>> systems.
>> The argument that only techies spend the time to learn new keyboard
>> commands
>> is always widely used. I consider that as an excuse. Everyone can learn
>> how
>> to use a device weather it be a phone or computer. Maybe the person may
>> have
>> difficulty and may not excel where in mastering it, but thats ok. You can
>> apply this to any situation.
>> If we were to stop learning. Then we would never excel and stay trapped 
>> in
>> the mind frame that this or that is to hard.
>> Learn while you still can. Once you get older it gets harder to learn and
>> thats where it might be a problem.
>>
>> Alonzo
>>
>>
>> On Sep 16, 2012, at 3:59 PM, Glenn <glennervin@cableone.net> wrote:
>>
>>> That is the kind of thinking that will keep Linux in the shadows.
>>> I teach people how to use screenreaders, and people have a hard enough
>>> time
>>> switching from the mouse to all these keyboard commands.
>>> When people begrudgingly learn JFW keyboard mappings to some degree, do
>>> you
>>> think they will willing go out to learn different key mappings?
>>> Only the techie types do that.
>>> Glenn
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
>>> To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system
>>> for
>>> Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 3:39 PM
>>> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm not really to worried about JFW key mappings honestly. First it's
>>> sort of weird, but mainly if they can't get used to using different
>>> keys, they're never going to live on Linux, at least not in the cli.
>>> On 9/16/2012 2:34 PM, Glenn wrote:
>>>> The big one for SpeakUp would be for it to have the option to switch to
>>>> JFW
>>>> key mappings.
>>>> This will allow many people to switch to Linux easily.
>>>> Microsoft did this with MS Word, allowing people to use Word Perfect 
>>>> key
>>>> mappings.
>>>> I think this is the only way Linux will ever become any more popular to
>>>> screenreader users.
>>>> Glenn
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
>>>> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
>>>> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 1:17 PM
>>>> Subject: speakup todo?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello all:
>>>> I'm trying to transfer, and applying for scholarships and all that I'd
>>>> like to be able to make some contributions to projects that I can note.
>>>> I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I figured
>>>> I'd start by working on something I use almost daily. I'm curious then
>>>> if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup could have to it.
>>>> I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to
>>>> userspace--as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the
>>>> kernel for would be hardware speech (and since serial ports are dying
>>>> out that could be a dead point), and accessing the console directly. 
>>>> How
>>>> easy would it be then, to have speakup run in userspace, but access a
>>>> smaller cut-down version of itself in the kernel to provide the access
>>>> to the console we need?
>>>> We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. It
>>>> could return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it works
>>>> now--one byte is the color, and the other byte is the ascii value. The
>>>> sequence file would just iterate over the console's lines. I'm also
>>>> curious how we'd handle something like key presses like caps+u to move
>>>> up a line etc.
>>>>
>>>> If I'm way off here, I'd still like to help out if possible; is there a
>>>> todo list around, or stuff people would like to see done? If there are
>>>> people willing to answer questions from time to time in terms of the
>>>> kernel programming, since that's something I've not done before, I'm
>>>> game to start coding.
>>>>
>>>> Another question is then, how do people catch panics? Since I'm not
>>>> quite cool enough to write code that just works, I'm sure I'll be
>>>> dealing with panics, but I can't see them on the console and usually
>>>> it's when speakup goes boom anyway.
>>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Take care,
>>> Ty
>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
>>> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he
>>> that
>>> dares not reason is a slave.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>


-- 
Take care,
Ty
http://tds-solutions.net
The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that

dares not reason is a slave.

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: speakup todo?

[Glenn]

I wasn't ever suggesting the key mappings be changed, just the option be 
created to switch to a JFW style if one chooses.
Glenn
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Albert Sten-Clanton" <albert.e.sten_clanton@verizon.net>
To: "'Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.'" 
<speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 7:33 PM
Subject: RE: speakup todo?


Agreed.  Plus, why screw up key mapping that's already decent?  I had an
easier time because the keys are a lot like ASAP was for DOS, but it would
have been easy enough even without that.

Al

-----Original Message-----
From: Speakup [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca] On Behalf Of
Littlefield, Tyler
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 4:39 PM
To: Glenn; Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: speakup todo?

I'm not really to worried about JFW key mappings honestly. First it's sort
of weird, but mainly if they can't get used to using different keys, they're
never going to live on Linux, at least not in the cli.
On 9/16/2012 2:34 PM, Glenn wrote:
> The big one for SpeakUp would be for it to have the option to switch
> to JFW key mappings.
> This will allow many people to switch to Linux easily.
> Microsoft did this with MS Word, allowing people to use Word Perfect
> key mappings.
> I think this is the only way Linux will ever become any more popular
> to screenreader users.
> Glenn
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 1:17 PM
> Subject: speakup todo?
>
>
> Hello all:
> I'm trying to transfer, and applying for scholarships and all that I'd
> like to be able to make some contributions to projects that I can note.
> I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I
> figured I'd start by working on something I use almost daily. I'm
> curious then if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup could
have to it.
> I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to
> userspace--as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the
> kernel for would be hardware speech (and since serial ports are dying
> out that could be a dead point), and accessing the console directly.
> How easy would it be then, to have speakup run in userspace, but
> access a smaller cut-down version of itself in the kernel to provide
> the access to the console we need?
> We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. It
> could return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it works
> now--one byte is the color, and the other byte is the ascii value. The
> sequence file would just iterate over the console's lines. I'm also
> curious how we'd handle something like key presses like caps+u to move
> up a line etc.
>
> If I'm way off here, I'd still like to help out if possible; is there
> a todo list around, or stuff people would like to see done? If there
> are people willing to answer questions from time to time in terms of
> the kernel programming, since that's something I've not done before,
> I'm game to start coding.
>
> Another question is then, how do people catch panics? Since I'm not
> quite cool enough to write code that just works, I'm sure I'll be
> dealing with panics, but I can't see them on the console and usually
> it's when speakup goes boom anyway.
>


--
Take care,
Ty
http://tds-solutions.net
The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that
dares not reason is a slave.

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 

RE: speakup todo?

[mike]

I have to agree with tie here. Also if you use nvda you have some ideas on
keyboard commands but if they really want to learn Linux and Speakup read
the manual.

-----Original Message-----
From: Speakup [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca] On Behalf Of
Littlefield, Tyler
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 3:39 PM
To: Glenn; Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: speakup todo?

I'm not really to worried about JFW key mappings honestly. First it's sort
of weird, but mainly if they can't get used to using different keys, they're
never going to live on Linux, at least not in the cli.
On 9/16/2012 2:34 PM, Glenn wrote:
> The big one for SpeakUp would be for it to have the option to switch 
> to JFW key mappings.
> This will allow many people to switch to Linux easily.
> Microsoft did this with MS Word, allowing people to use Word Perfect 
> key mappings.
> I think this is the only way Linux will ever become any more popular 
> to screenreader users.
> Glenn
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." 
> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 1:17 PM
> Subject: speakup todo?
>
>
> Hello all:
> I'm trying to transfer, and applying for scholarships and all that I'd 
> like to be able to make some contributions to projects that I can note.
> I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I 
> figured I'd start by working on something I use almost daily. I'm 
> curious then if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup could
have to it.
> I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to 
> userspace--as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the 
> kernel for would be hardware speech (and since serial ports are dying 
> out that could be a dead point), and accessing the console directly. 
> How easy would it be then, to have speakup run in userspace, but 
> access a smaller cut-down version of itself in the kernel to provide 
> the access to the console we need?
> We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. It 
> could return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it works 
> now--one byte is the color, and the other byte is the ascii value. The 
> sequence file would just iterate over the console's lines. I'm also 
> curious how we'd handle something like key presses like caps+u to move 
> up a line etc.
>
> If I'm way off here, I'd still like to help out if possible; is there 
> a todo list around, or stuff people would like to see done? If there 
> are people willing to answer questions from time to time in terms of 
> the kernel programming, since that's something I've not done before, 
> I'm game to start coding.
>
> Another question is then, how do people catch panics? Since I'm not 
> quite cool enough to write code that just works, I'm sure I'll be 
> dealing with panics, but I can't see them on the console and usually 
> it's when speakup goes boom anyway.
>


--
Take care,
Ty
http://tds-solutions.net
The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that
dares not reason is a slave.

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: speakup todo?

[Brian Buhrow]

	Hello.  If you want to know how Speakup might work in user-space, check
out yasr, which is a completely user-space based screen reader.  I use it
every day under NetBSD, where it works wonderfully.
	As far as kernel programming goes, see if you can find some books on
the topic, read kernel code, and learn how to generate and use crash dumps
so you can do post mortoms  on kernels after they crash.   Learn how to set
up a serial console since it will let you see panics as they happen, and,
if you have two machines, learn how to set up and use kgdb, the in-kernel
gdb debugger.
	Kernel code isn't that much different from regular code, both  should
be easy to read, as efficient as possible without being convoluted, and as
well tested and bullet proof as possible.
	Good luck, and happy hacking!
On Sep 16, 12:17pm, "Littlefield, Tyler" wrote:
} Subject: speakup todo?
} Hello all:
} I'm trying to transfer, and applying for scholarships and all that I'd 
} like to be able to make some contributions to projects that I can note.
} I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I figured 
} I'd start by working on something I use almost daily. I'm curious then 
} if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup could have to it.
} I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to 
} userspace--as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the 
} kernel for would be hardware speech (and since serial ports are dying 
} out that could be a dead point), and accessing the console directly. How 
} easy would it be then, to have speakup run in userspace, but access a 
} smaller cut-down version of itself in the kernel to provide the access 
} to the console we need?
} We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. It 
} could return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it works 
} now--one byte is the color, and the other byte is the ascii value. The 
} sequence file would just iterate over the console's lines. I'm also 
} curious how we'd handle something like key presses like caps+u to move 
} up a line etc.
} 
} If I'm way off here, I'd still like to help out if possible; is there a 
} todo list around, or stuff people would like to see done? If there are 
} people willing to answer questions from time to time in terms of the 
} kernel programming, since that's something I've not done before, I'm 
} game to start coding.
} 
} Another question is then, how do people catch panics? Since I'm not 
} quite cool enough to write code that just works, I'm sure I'll be 
} dealing with panics, but I can't see them on the console and usually 
} it's when speakup goes boom anyway.
} 
} -- 
} Take care,
} Ty
} http://tds-solutions.net
} The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
} http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
} He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave.
} 
} _______________________________________________
} Speakup mailing list
} Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
} http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>-- End of excerpt from "Littlefield, Tyler"

Re: speakup todo?

[Littlefield, Tyler]

hello:
Thanks for the info; I think my biggest issue is I really don't have 
systems with serial ports. Has anyone played with netconsole? apparently 
you can hook a system up over a crossover cable and send messages to it, 
but I'm not sure how well it works.

On another unrelated note, I'm curious how you managed to install BSD; 
did you do something without a serial install?

On 9/16/2012 10:31 PM, Brian Buhrow wrote:
> 	Hello.  If you want to know how Speakup might work in user-space, check
> out yasr, which is a completely user-space based screen reader.  I use it
> every day under NetBSD, where it works wonderfully.
> 	As far as kernel programming goes, see if you can find some books on
> the topic, read kernel code, and learn how to generate and use crash dumps
> so you can do post mortoms  on kernels after they crash.   Learn how to set
> up a serial console since it will let you see panics as they happen, and,
> if you have two machines, learn how to set up and use kgdb, the in-kernel
> gdb debugger.
> 	Kernel code isn't that much different from regular code, both  should
> be easy to read, as efficient as possible without being convoluted, and as
> well tested and bullet proof as possible.
> 	Good luck, and happy hacking!
> On Sep 16, 12:17pm, "Littlefield, Tyler" wrote:
> } Subject: speakup todo?
> } Hello all:
> } I'm trying to transfer, and applying for scholarships and all that I'd
> } like to be able to make some contributions to projects that I can note.
> } I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I figured
> } I'd start by working on something I use almost daily. I'm curious then
> } if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup could have to it.
> } I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to
> } userspace--as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the
> } kernel for would be hardware speech (and since serial ports are dying
> } out that could be a dead point), and accessing the console directly. How
> } easy would it be then, to have speakup run in userspace, but access a
> } smaller cut-down version of itself in the kernel to provide the access
> } to the console we need?
> } We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. It
> } could return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it works
> } now--one byte is the color, and the other byte is the ascii value. The
> } sequence file would just iterate over the console's lines. I'm also
> } curious how we'd handle something like key presses like caps+u to move
> } up a line etc.
> }
> } If I'm way off here, I'd still like to help out if possible; is there a
> } todo list around, or stuff people would like to see done? If there are
> } people willing to answer questions from time to time in terms of the
> } kernel programming, since that's something I've not done before, I'm
> } game to start coding.
> }
> } Another question is then, how do people catch panics? Since I'm not
> } quite cool enough to write code that just works, I'm sure I'll be
> } dealing with panics, but I can't see them on the console and usually
> } it's when speakup goes boom anyway.
> }
> } --
> } Take care,
> } Ty
> } http://tds-solutions.net
> } The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
> } http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
> } He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave.
> }
> } _______________________________________________
> } Speakup mailing list
> } Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> } http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> -- End of excerpt from "Littlefield, Tyler"
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup


-- 
Take care,
Ty
http://tds-solutions.net
The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave.

Re: speakup todo?

[Brian Buhrow]

On Sep 16, 10:35pm, "Littlefield, Tyler" wrote:
} Subject: Re: speakup todo?
} hello:
} Thanks for the info; I think my biggest issue is I really don't have 
} systems with serial ports. Has anyone played with netconsole? apparently 
} you can hook a system up over a crossover cable and send messages to it, 
} but I'm not sure how well it works.
} 
} On another unrelated note, I'm curious how you managed to install BSD; 
} did you do something without a serial install?
	Typicaly, for my BSD installs, I do a serial console.  Recently, I did
a machine without a serial port.  In that case, I built a bootable USB
flash disk with all I needed, and had it startup an sshd on a known IP
address.  Once in, I can then run the system from there, and initialize the
hard drive, check all the drivers and make sure all will work before
building an installation on the hardware itself that will come up talking.
-Brian

Re: speakup todo?

[Keith Barrett]

Just remember, not all windows users use jfw.



On 16/09/2012 22:38, Alonzo Cuellar wrote:
> I think the key bindings are fine. There is no trouble with them at all.
> Always be able to expand your mind set. Even if little progress is made. After all, you get more advantages from learning the way other screen readers work.
> I can see where the option might be useful, but if you don't learn it full force and always stay trapped in the way jaws works, then you'll never expand your horizons.
> people come to linux expecting it to be something like windows. Its not and it probably never will be similar to windows. Its made for you to explore, etc.
> I was forced in using linux due to an accident I had with my computer. That was fine by me though. Ever since then I prefer the unix variances weather is be linux or mac.
> I'm no programmer by any means, but I do enjoy working with other operating systems.
> The argument that only techies spend the time to learn new keyboard commands is always widely used. I consider that as an excuse. Everyone can learn how to use a device weather it be a phone or computer. Maybe the person may have difficulty and may not excel where in mastering it, but thats ok. You can apply this to any situation.
> If we were to stop learning… Then we would never excel and stay trapped in the mind frame that this or that is to hard.
> Learn while you still can. Once you get older it gets harder to learn and thats where it might be a problem.
>
> Alonzo
>
>
> On Sep 16, 2012, at 3:59 PM, Glenn <glennervin@cableone.net> wrote:
>
>> That is the kind of thinking that will keep Linux in the shadows.
>> I teach people how to use screenreaders, and people have a hard enough time
>> switching from the mouse to all these keyboard commands.
>> When people begrudgingly learn JFW keyboard mappings to some degree, do you
>> think they will willing go out to learn different key mappings?
>> Only the techie types do that.
>> Glenn
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
>> To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for
>> Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 3:39 PM
>> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>>
>>
>> I'm not really to worried about JFW key mappings honestly. First it's
>> sort of weird, but mainly if they can't get used to using different
>> keys, they're never going to live on Linux, at least not in the cli.
>> On 9/16/2012 2:34 PM, Glenn wrote:
>>> The big one for SpeakUp would be for it to have the option to switch to
>>> JFW
>>> key mappings.
>>> This will allow many people to switch to Linux easily.
>>> Microsoft did this with MS Word, allowing people to use Word Perfect key
>>> mappings.
>>> I think this is the only way Linux will ever become any more popular to
>>> screenreader users.
>>> Glenn
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com>
>>> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
>>> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 1:17 PM
>>> Subject: speakup todo?
>>>
>>>
>>> Hello all:
>>> I'm trying to transfer, and applying for scholarships and all that I'd
>>> like to be able to make some contributions to projects that I can note.
>>> I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I figured
>>> I'd start by working on something I use almost daily. I'm curious then
>>> if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup could have to it.
>>> I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to
>>> userspace--as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the
>>> kernel for would be hardware speech (and since serial ports are dying
>>> out that could be a dead point), and accessing the console directly. How
>>> easy would it be then, to have speakup run in userspace, but access a
>>> smaller cut-down version of itself in the kernel to provide the access
>>> to the console we need?
>>> We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. It
>>> could return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it works
>>> now--one byte is the color, and the other byte is the ascii value. The
>>> sequence file would just iterate over the console's lines. I'm also
>>> curious how we'd handle something like key presses like caps+u to move
>>> up a line etc.
>>>
>>> If I'm way off here, I'd still like to help out if possible; is there a
>>> todo list around, or stuff people would like to see done? If there are
>>> people willing to answer questions from time to time in terms of the
>>> kernel programming, since that's something I've not done before, I'm
>>> game to start coding.
>>>
>>> Another question is then, how do people catch panics? Since I'm not
>>> quite cool enough to write code that just works, I'm sure I'll be
>>> dealing with panics, but I can't see them on the console and usually
>>> it's when speakup goes boom anyway.
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Take care,
>> Ty
>> http://tds-solutions.net
>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
>> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that
>> dares not reason is a slave.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: speakup todo?

[Kyle]

I would definitely be interested in a Speakup-style screen reader in 
userspace. YASR, unless it has changed recently, runs a subshell for its 
functionality, so unfortunately, there is no access to all virtual 
consoles or the login prompt. It may, however, be worth looking at SBL 
as a base for comparison, as it doesn't appear to run a subshell. I am, 
however, at least in my Knoppix Adriane virtual machine, noticing that 
the keymap doesn't appear to work in the non-Adriane console, although 
characters typed into that console do speak, and I would guess that new 
text that appears in this console would also be spoken.
~Kyle

Re: speakup todo?

[Kyle]

I just thought of another userspace example. Have a look at Brltty. I 
believe it is portable to other OS's such as the BSD's, and as far as I 
know, it requires no specialized kernel code. At least on Linux, it can 
start as a system daemon fairly early in the boot process, allowing 
access to all virtual consoles on the system. Brltty also doesn't depend 
on a subshell in order to have full functionality. So Brltty and SBL are 
currently the best to look at to determine whether or not it would be 
possible to make something like Speakup run in userspace, while 
hopefully remaining kernel agnostic. Having said this, I realize that 
SBL may not necessarily be kernel agnostic, but I do believe that Brltty 
is, and therefore it could be a great model to use as a userspace base.
~Kyle

Speakup history lesson, was Re: speakup todo?

[Kirk Reiser]

Maybe I will give a small history lesson about speakup.  I never
thought I'd be doing something like this!

Speakup's keymap was originally based on ASAP as a few folks have
noticed.  I did it that way because I used ASAP in DOS for many years
and Larry and I were originally going to write speakup together.  He
fell asleep and got a really, really good job as head of research and
development for APH.  I OTH, got frustrated and started reading
through Linux kernel code shortly after Linus released it.  I spent a
few years trying to find funding to do the development of speakup but
gave up after group after group wern't interested because everyone was
into Windows.  I decided to finally write speakup myself, for myself.
A few other folks said they'd be interested in playing with it and so
it goes.

As for a JFW keymap, I wrote one for speakup about a year after I
released the first few versions because some people made the same type
of comments as you have Glen.  It gained a few users but mostly was
just ignored.  When we rewrote how key handling was done, I never
bothered with the JAWs keymap because it just was never really used.

A few people have also pointed out that NVDAs keymap is similar to
speakup's.  This is true Jamie and Nick were both involved in speakup
and bookserve in earlier years.  They have made NVDA a really usable
alternative to the proprietary Windows screen readers and they have
kept to their tradition with our joint projects of open source and
freely available.  I'm very happy for their commitment.

So there you go, speakup had JFW keymaps and nobody used them.  Of
course if someone wants to write new ones, we'll happily include them.
This is open source afterall.

   Kirk

On Sun, 16 Sep 2012, Glenn wrote:

> I have tried to get folks to switch to Linux, but it is difficult,
> as people like what is familiar to them.
> The situation on the other list, the Orca list I think, was that I am on
> digest on that list, and I did not reply to the thread subject, I'm not sure
> how to do that from digest mode, which on that instance, was regarding key
> bindings in Orca, but I wrote a new thread with a similar subject line, and
> some folks thought it had nothing to do with that subject on that list.
> But yes, I am trying to get the Linux community to wake up to this need.
> In fact, in Windows, the program Window Eyes finally smartened up and used
> JFW key bindings.
> It may be easy for someone who knows how to make new key bindings, but not
> for a new user.
> If it is really fairly easy to make a new set of key bindings, then why
> doesn't someone just do it, and make it an option for new users, like Window
> Eyes did?
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jason Miller" <hobbgoblin79@gmail.com>
> To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for
> Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 5:13 PM
> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>
>
> Hello.
>
> Let me start by this first. You've been on several lists, bitching and
> complaining about everyone switching to JFW keybindings. The first time
> I saw it, you went to the wrong list to complain about something not
> sharing bindings with JFW that wasn't even the right list. I said it
> there, adn I'll say it here again. If not having JFW bindings was going
> to be a killer for the blind, then things like Orca, Speakup, Emacs,
> Voice Over, along with *coughs* Window Eyes, and NVDA on Windows
> wouldn't exist. To put your argument to a rest, if what you said were
> true, then why are so many people switching away from jaws, just
> speaking alone of windows, and going to NVDA or Window Eyes, let alone
> those that are migrating to other *nix based systems? I don't know what
> kind of personal crusade you are on, but from what I've seen, this is
> nothing more than you trying to troll.
>
> Secondly, like I said, he's been on several lists complaining about no
> one in the linux world using the JFW based keybindings. This
> conversation could go on forever, but it would be just feeding a troll.
> If everyone here has noticed, he's hijacked Tyler's thread, just to stir
> up trouble. He seems to do that elsewhere on other Linux accessibility
> lists, and when someone points out a valid argument, he seems to get
> frustrated, and go away.
>
> *shrugs* if you've really taught computers to the blind, then you would
> understand that they are willing to learn what works. Not everyone needs
> the windows world, and not everyone wants to stay in that ecosystem. You
> don't go to every list, start complaining about how things should be
> like windows, and JAWS, otherwise like I've told you before, only JAWS
> would exist, and there would be no other accessibility programs out
> there. Basically it comes down to this, and this is why I am not too
> sure about what you say about teaching those with vision impairments how
> to use technology. You teach someone who doesn't know different
> techniques, teach them different systems that would fit their needs, and
> you let them decide. You don't force a single way onto them, and go
> everywhere else that isn't of that way to stir up trouble.
>
> Anyway, end of my rant towards this guy.
>
> On 09/16/2012 05:51 PM, Glenn wrote:
>> Actually, it is this attitude among the sighted, that keeps most
>> technology
>> from being made accessible to the Blind.
>> Wow.
>> Glenn
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Alonzo Cuellar"<mariachiac@gmail.com>
>> To: "Glenn"<glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for
>> Linux."<speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 4:38 PM
>> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>>
>>
>> I think the key bindings are fine. There is no trouble with them at all.
>> Always be able to expand your mind set. Even if little progress is made.
>> After all, you get more advantages from learning the way other screen
>> readers work.
>> I can see where the option might be useful, but if you don't learn it full
>> force and always stay trapped in the way jaws works, then you'll never
>> expand your horizons.
>> people come to linux expecting it to be something like windows. Its not
>> and
>> it probably never will be similar to windows. Its made for you to explore,
>> etc.
>> I was forced in using linux due to an accident I had with my computer.
>> That
>> was fine by me though. Ever since then I prefer the unix variances weather
>> is be linux or mac.
>> I'm no programmer by any means, but I do enjoy working with other
>> operating
>> systems.
>> The argument that only techies spend the time to learn new keyboard
>> commands
>> is always widely used. I consider that as an excuse. Everyone can learn
>> how
>> to use a device weather it be a phone or computer. Maybe the person may
>> have
>> difficulty and may not excel where in mastering it, but thats ok. You can
>> apply this to any situation.
>> If we were to stop learning? Then we would never excel and stay trapped in
>> the mind frame that this or that is to hard.
>> Learn while you still can. Once you get older it gets harder to learn and
>> thats where it might be a problem.
>>
>> Alonzo
>>
>>
>> On Sep 16, 2012, at 3:59 PM, Glenn<glennervin@cableone.net>  wrote:
>>
>>> That is the kind of thinking that will keep Linux in the shadows.
>>> I teach people how to use screenreaders, and people have a hard enough
>>> time
>>> switching from the mouse to all these keyboard commands.
>>> When people begrudgingly learn JFW keyboard mappings to some degree, do
>>> you
>>> think they will willing go out to learn different key mappings?
>>> Only the techie types do that.
>>> Glenn
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler"<tyler@tysdomain.com>
>>> To: "Glenn"<glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for
>>> Linux."<speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 3:39 PM
>>> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm not really to worried about JFW key mappings honestly. First it's
>>> sort of weird, but mainly if they can't get used to using different
>>> keys, they're never going to live on Linux, at least not in the cli.
>>> On 9/16/2012 2:34 PM, Glenn wrote:
>>>> The big one for SpeakUp would be for it to have the option to switch to
>>>> JFW
>>>> key mappings.
>>>> This will allow many people to switch to Linux easily.
>>>> Microsoft did this with MS Word, allowing people to use Word Perfect key
>>>> mappings.
>>>> I think this is the only way Linux will ever become any more popular to
>>>> screenreader users.
>>>> Glenn
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler"<tyler@tysdomain.com>
>>>> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
>>>> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 1:17 PM
>>>> Subject: speakup todo?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello all:
>>>> I'm trying to transfer, and applying for scholarships and all that I'd
>>>> like to be able to make some contributions to projects that I can note.
>>>> I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I figured
>>>> I'd start by working on something I use almost daily. I'm curious then
>>>> if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup could have to it.
>>>> I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to
>>>> userspace--as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the
>>>> kernel for would be hardware speech (and since serial ports are dying
>>>> out that could be a dead point), and accessing the console directly. How
>>>> easy would it be then, to have speakup run in userspace, but access a
>>>> smaller cut-down version of itself in the kernel to provide the access
>>>> to the console we need?
>>>> We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. It
>>>> could return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it works
>>>> now--one byte is the color, and the other byte is the ascii value. The
>>>> sequence file would just iterate over the console's lines. I'm also
>>>> curious how we'd handle something like key presses like caps+u to move
>>>> up a line etc.
>>>>
>>>> If I'm way off here, I'd still like to help out if possible; is there a
>>>> todo list around, or stuff people would like to see done? If there are
>>>> people willing to answer questions from time to time in terms of the
>>>> kernel programming, since that's something I've not done before, I'm
>>>> game to start coding.
>>>>
>>>> Another question is then, how do people catch panics? Since I'm not
>>>> quite cool enough to write code that just works, I'm sure I'll be
>>>> dealing with panics, but I can't see them on the console and usually
>>>> it's when speakup goes boom anyway.
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Take care,
>>> Ty
>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
>>> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he
>>> that
>>> dares not reason is a slave.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> -- 
> Jason Miller
> Vinux PR Coordinator
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

--
Kirk Reiser				The Computer Braille Facility
e-mail: kirk@braille.uwo.ca		University of Western Ontario
phone: (519) 661-3061

RE: Speakup history lesson, was Re: speakup todo?

[Albert Sten-Clanton]

Kirk, thanks for that information.  Take care!

Al 

-----Original Message-----
From: Speakup [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca] On Behalf Of Kirk
Reiser
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2012 8:51 AM
To: Glenn; Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Speakup history lesson, was Re: speakup todo?

Maybe I will give a small history lesson about speakup.  I never thought I'd
be doing something like this!

Speakup's keymap was originally based on ASAP as a few folks have noticed.
I did it that way because I used ASAP in DOS for many years and Larry and I
were originally going to write speakup together.  He fell asleep and got a
really, really good job as head of research and development for APH.  I OTH,
got frustrated and started reading through Linux kernel code shortly after
Linus released it.  I spent a few years trying to find funding to do the
development of speakup but gave up after group after group wern't interested
because everyone was into Windows.  I decided to finally write speakup
myself, for myself.
A few other folks said they'd be interested in playing with it and so it
goes.

As for a JFW keymap, I wrote one for speakup about a year after I released
the first few versions because some people made the same type of comments as
you have Glen.  It gained a few users but mostly was just ignored.  When we
rewrote how key handling was done, I never bothered with the JAWs keymap
because it just was never really used.

A few people have also pointed out that NVDAs keymap is similar to
speakup's.  This is true Jamie and Nick were both involved in speakup and
bookserve in earlier years.  They have made NVDA a really usable alternative
to the proprietary Windows screen readers and they have kept to their
tradition with our joint projects of open source and freely available.  I'm
very happy for their commitment.

So there you go, speakup had JFW keymaps and nobody used them.  Of course if
someone wants to write new ones, we'll happily include them.
This is open source afterall.

   Kirk

On Sun, 16 Sep 2012, Glenn wrote:

> I have tried to get folks to switch to Linux, but it is difficult, as 
> people like what is familiar to them.
> The situation on the other list, the Orca list I think, was that I am 
> on digest on that list, and I did not reply to the thread subject, I'm 
> not sure how to do that from digest mode, which on that instance, was 
> regarding key bindings in Orca, but I wrote a new thread with a 
> similar subject line, and some folks thought it had nothing to do with
that subject on that list.
> But yes, I am trying to get the Linux community to wake up to this need.
> In fact, in Windows, the program Window Eyes finally smartened up and 
> used JFW key bindings.
> It may be easy for someone who knows how to make new key bindings, but 
> not for a new user.
> If it is really fairly easy to make a new set of key bindings, then 
> why doesn't someone just do it, and make it an option for new users, 
> like Window Eyes did?
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jason Miller" <hobbgoblin79@gmail.com>
> To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system 
> for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 5:13 PM
> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>
>
> Hello.
>
> Let me start by this first. You've been on several lists, bitching and 
> complaining about everyone switching to JFW keybindings. The first 
> time I saw it, you went to the wrong list to complain about something 
> not sharing bindings with JFW that wasn't even the right list. I said 
> it there, adn I'll say it here again. If not having JFW bindings was 
> going to be a killer for the blind, then things like Orca, Speakup, 
> Emacs, Voice Over, along with *coughs* Window Eyes, and NVDA on 
> Windows wouldn't exist. To put your argument to a rest, if what you 
> said were true, then why are so many people switching away from jaws, 
> just speaking alone of windows, and going to NVDA or Window Eyes, let 
> alone those that are migrating to other *nix based systems? I don't 
> know what kind of personal crusade you are on, but from what I've 
> seen, this is nothing more than you trying to troll.
>
> Secondly, like I said, he's been on several lists complaining about no 
> one in the linux world using the JFW based keybindings. This 
> conversation could go on forever, but it would be just feeding a troll.
> If everyone here has noticed, he's hijacked Tyler's thread, just to 
> stir up trouble. He seems to do that elsewhere on other Linux 
> accessibility lists, and when someone points out a valid argument, he 
> seems to get frustrated, and go away.
>
> *shrugs* if you've really taught computers to the blind, then you 
> would understand that they are willing to learn what works. Not 
> everyone needs the windows world, and not everyone wants to stay in 
> that ecosystem. You don't go to every list, start complaining about 
> how things should be like windows, and JAWS, otherwise like I've told 
> you before, only JAWS would exist, and there would be no other 
> accessibility programs out there. Basically it comes down to this, and 
> this is why I am not too sure about what you say about teaching those 
> with vision impairments how to use technology. You teach someone who 
> doesn't know different techniques, teach them different systems that 
> would fit their needs, and you let them decide. You don't force a 
> single way onto them, and go everywhere else that isn't of that way to
stir up trouble.
>
> Anyway, end of my rant towards this guy.
>
> On 09/16/2012 05:51 PM, Glenn wrote:
>> Actually, it is this attitude among the sighted, that keeps most 
>> technology from being made accessible to the Blind.
>> Wow.
>> Glenn
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Alonzo Cuellar"<mariachiac@gmail.com>
>> To: "Glenn"<glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system 
>> for Linux."<speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 4:38 PM
>> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>>
>>
>> I think the key bindings are fine. There is no trouble with them at all.
>> Always be able to expand your mind set. Even if little progress is made.
>> After all, you get more advantages from learning the way other screen 
>> readers work.
>> I can see where the option might be useful, but if you don't learn it 
>> full force and always stay trapped in the way jaws works, then you'll 
>> never expand your horizons.
>> people come to linux expecting it to be something like windows. Its 
>> not and it probably never will be similar to windows. Its made for 
>> you to explore, etc.
>> I was forced in using linux due to an accident I had with my computer.
>> That
>> was fine by me though. Ever since then I prefer the unix variances 
>> weather is be linux or mac.
>> I'm no programmer by any means, but I do enjoy working with other 
>> operating systems.
>> The argument that only techies spend the time to learn new keyboard 
>> commands is always widely used. I consider that as an excuse. 
>> Everyone can learn how to use a device weather it be a phone or 
>> computer. Maybe the person may have difficulty and may not excel 
>> where in mastering it, but thats ok. You can apply this to any 
>> situation.
>> If we were to stop learning? Then we would never excel and stay 
>> trapped in the mind frame that this or that is to hard.
>> Learn while you still can. Once you get older it gets harder to learn 
>> and thats where it might be a problem.
>>
>> Alonzo
>>
>>
>> On Sep 16, 2012, at 3:59 PM, Glenn<glennervin@cableone.net>  wrote:
>>
>>> That is the kind of thinking that will keep Linux in the shadows.
>>> I teach people how to use screenreaders, and people have a hard 
>>> enough time switching from the mouse to all these keyboard commands.
>>> When people begrudgingly learn JFW keyboard mappings to some degree, 
>>> do you think they will willing go out to learn different key 
>>> mappings?
>>> Only the techie types do that.
>>> Glenn
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler"<tyler@tysdomain.com>
>>> To: "Glenn"<glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review 
>>> system for Linux."<speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 3:39 PM
>>> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm not really to worried about JFW key mappings honestly. First 
>>> it's sort of weird, but mainly if they can't get used to using 
>>> different keys, they're never going to live on Linux, at least not in
the cli.
>>> On 9/16/2012 2:34 PM, Glenn wrote:
>>>> The big one for SpeakUp would be for it to have the option to 
>>>> switch to JFW key mappings.
>>>> This will allow many people to switch to Linux easily.
>>>> Microsoft did this with MS Word, allowing people to use Word 
>>>> Perfect key mappings.
>>>> I think this is the only way Linux will ever become any more 
>>>> popular to screenreader users.
>>>> Glenn
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler"<tyler@tysdomain.com>
>>>> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
>>>> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 1:17 PM
>>>> Subject: speakup todo?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello all:
>>>> I'm trying to transfer, and applying for scholarships and all that 
>>>> I'd like to be able to make some contributions to projects that I can
note.
>>>> I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I 
>>>> figured I'd start by working on something I use almost daily. I'm 
>>>> curious then if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup could
have to it.
>>>> I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to 
>>>> userspace--as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the 
>>>> kernel for would be hardware speech (and since serial ports are 
>>>> dying out that could be a dead point), and accessing the console 
>>>> directly. How easy would it be then, to have speakup run in 
>>>> userspace, but access a smaller cut-down version of itself in the 
>>>> kernel to provide the access to the console we need?
>>>> We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. 
>>>> It could return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it 
>>>> works now--one byte is the color, and the other byte is the ascii 
>>>> value. The sequence file would just iterate over the console's 
>>>> lines. I'm also curious how we'd handle something like key presses 
>>>> like caps+u to move up a line etc.
>>>>
>>>> If I'm way off here, I'd still like to help out if possible; is 
>>>> there a todo list around, or stuff people would like to see done? 
>>>> If there are people willing to answer questions from time to time 
>>>> in terms of the kernel programming, since that's something I've not 
>>>> done before, I'm game to start coding.
>>>>
>>>> Another question is then, how do people catch panics? Since I'm not 
>>>> quite cool enough to write code that just works, I'm sure I'll be 
>>>> dealing with panics, but I can't see them on the console and 
>>>> usually it's when speakup goes boom anyway.
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Take care,
>>> Ty
>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
>>> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; 
>>> he that dares not reason is a slave.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> --
> Jason Miller
> Vinux PR Coordinator
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

--
Kirk Reiser				The Computer Braille Facility
e-mail: kirk@braille.uwo.ca		University of Western Ontario
phone: (519) 661-3061
_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

RE: Speakup history lesson, was Re: speakup todo?

[Brian Buhrow]

	hello.  Just as a followup to Kirk and others, let me say that while I
agree the keymap issue is important in that having the screen reader
emulate the keystrokes one already knows for the screen reader one came
from, the most important issue is whether or not Speakup's key map can be
easily modified, and that the documentation contains example key maps.  For
example, I too came from a DOS based screen reader, Flipper, to be precise.
Yasr, which is the screen reader I use today, has a very flexible key
mapping system which permitted me to write a keymap that emulates Flipper's
commands in about 2 hours.  I didn't emulate every stroke, but the ones I
use on a daily basis are the ones I emulated, and it enabled me to become
just as efficient with Yasr as I was with Flipper in no time.
	I suspect Kirk and the others who contributed to Speakup know this,
and while I don't use Speakup on a daily basis, my brushes with it leave me
with the impression that it does, in fact, have a flexible key mapping
system and that one does not need to be a programmer to write the keymaps
for it.   If I'm right, then may I echo Kirk's suggestion that those who
want a JFW key map, write one, and get it included as an alternative
configuration file in the distribution.  If Kirk is willing, and he seems
to be, then there's no problem geting it included moving forward.
Just my 2 cents.
-Brian

Re: Speakup history lesson, was Re: speakup todo?

[Glenn]

Hi Kirk,
I think that they would get used more now, because more people have become 
interested in Linux.
Glenn

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kirk Reiser" <kirk@braille.uwo.ca>
To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for 
Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2012 7:51 AM
Subject: Speakup history lesson, was Re: speakup todo?


Maybe I will give a small history lesson about speakup.  I never
thought I'd be doing something like this!

Speakup's keymap was originally based on ASAP as a few folks have
noticed.  I did it that way because I used ASAP in DOS for many years
and Larry and I were originally going to write speakup together.  He
fell asleep and got a really, really good job as head of research and
development for APH.  I OTH, got frustrated and started reading
through Linux kernel code shortly after Linus released it.  I spent a
few years trying to find funding to do the development of speakup but
gave up after group after group wern't interested because everyone was
into Windows.  I decided to finally write speakup myself, for myself.
A few other folks said they'd be interested in playing with it and so
it goes.

As for a JFW keymap, I wrote one for speakup about a year after I
released the first few versions because some people made the same type
of comments as you have Glen.  It gained a few users but mostly was
just ignored.  When we rewrote how key handling was done, I never
bothered with the JAWs keymap because it just was never really used.

A few people have also pointed out that NVDAs keymap is similar to
speakup's.  This is true Jamie and Nick were both involved in speakup
and bookserve in earlier years.  They have made NVDA a really usable
alternative to the proprietary Windows screen readers and they have
kept to their tradition with our joint projects of open source and
freely available.  I'm very happy for their commitment.

So there you go, speakup had JFW keymaps and nobody used them.  Of
course if someone wants to write new ones, we'll happily include them.
This is open source afterall.

   Kirk

On Sun, 16 Sep 2012, Glenn wrote:

> I have tried to get folks to switch to Linux, but it is difficult,
> as people like what is familiar to them.
> The situation on the other list, the Orca list I think, was that I am on
> digest on that list, and I did not reply to the thread subject, I'm not 
> sure
> how to do that from digest mode, which on that instance, was regarding key
> bindings in Orca, but I wrote a new thread with a similar subject line, 
> and
> some folks thought it had nothing to do with that subject on that list.
> But yes, I am trying to get the Linux community to wake up to this need.
> In fact, in Windows, the program Window Eyes finally smartened up and used
> JFW key bindings.
> It may be easy for someone who knows how to make new key bindings, but not
> for a new user.
> If it is really fairly easy to make a new set of key bindings, then why
> doesn't someone just do it, and make it an option for new users, like 
> Window
> Eyes did?
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jason Miller" <hobbgoblin79@gmail.com>
> To: "Glenn" <glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for
> Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 5:13 PM
> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>
>
> Hello.
>
> Let me start by this first. You've been on several lists, bitching and
> complaining about everyone switching to JFW keybindings. The first time
> I saw it, you went to the wrong list to complain about something not
> sharing bindings with JFW that wasn't even the right list. I said it
> there, adn I'll say it here again. If not having JFW bindings was going
> to be a killer for the blind, then things like Orca, Speakup, Emacs,
> Voice Over, along with *coughs* Window Eyes, and NVDA on Windows
> wouldn't exist. To put your argument to a rest, if what you said were
> true, then why are so many people switching away from jaws, just
> speaking alone of windows, and going to NVDA or Window Eyes, let alone
> those that are migrating to other *nix based systems? I don't know what
> kind of personal crusade you are on, but from what I've seen, this is
> nothing more than you trying to troll.
>
> Secondly, like I said, he's been on several lists complaining about no
> one in the linux world using the JFW based keybindings. This
> conversation could go on forever, but it would be just feeding a troll.
> If everyone here has noticed, he's hijacked Tyler's thread, just to stir
> up trouble. He seems to do that elsewhere on other Linux accessibility
> lists, and when someone points out a valid argument, he seems to get
> frustrated, and go away.
>
> *shrugs* if you've really taught computers to the blind, then you would
> understand that they are willing to learn what works. Not everyone needs
> the windows world, and not everyone wants to stay in that ecosystem. You
> don't go to every list, start complaining about how things should be
> like windows, and JAWS, otherwise like I've told you before, only JAWS
> would exist, and there would be no other accessibility programs out
> there. Basically it comes down to this, and this is why I am not too
> sure about what you say about teaching those with vision impairments how
> to use technology. You teach someone who doesn't know different
> techniques, teach them different systems that would fit their needs, and
> you let them decide. You don't force a single way onto them, and go
> everywhere else that isn't of that way to stir up trouble.
>
> Anyway, end of my rant towards this guy.
>
> On 09/16/2012 05:51 PM, Glenn wrote:
>> Actually, it is this attitude among the sighted, that keeps most
>> technology
>> from being made accessible to the Blind.
>> Wow.
>> Glenn
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Alonzo Cuellar"<mariachiac@gmail.com>
>> To: "Glenn"<glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for
>> Linux."<speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 4:38 PM
>> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>>
>>
>> I think the key bindings are fine. There is no trouble with them at all.
>> Always be able to expand your mind set. Even if little progress is made.
>> After all, you get more advantages from learning the way other screen
>> readers work.
>> I can see where the option might be useful, but if you don't learn it 
>> full
>> force and always stay trapped in the way jaws works, then you'll never
>> expand your horizons.
>> people come to linux expecting it to be something like windows. Its not
>> and
>> it probably never will be similar to windows. Its made for you to 
>> explore,
>> etc.
>> I was forced in using linux due to an accident I had with my computer.
>> That
>> was fine by me though. Ever since then I prefer the unix variances 
>> weather
>> is be linux or mac.
>> I'm no programmer by any means, but I do enjoy working with other
>> operating
>> systems.
>> The argument that only techies spend the time to learn new keyboard
>> commands
>> is always widely used. I consider that as an excuse. Everyone can learn
>> how
>> to use a device weather it be a phone or computer. Maybe the person may
>> have
>> difficulty and may not excel where in mastering it, but thats ok. You can
>> apply this to any situation.
>> If we were to stop learning? Then we would never excel and stay trapped 
>> in
>> the mind frame that this or that is to hard.
>> Learn while you still can. Once you get older it gets harder to learn and
>> thats where it might be a problem.
>>
>> Alonzo
>>
>>
>> On Sep 16, 2012, at 3:59 PM, Glenn<glennervin@cableone.net>  wrote:
>>
>>> That is the kind of thinking that will keep Linux in the shadows.
>>> I teach people how to use screenreaders, and people have a hard enough
>>> time
>>> switching from the mouse to all these keyboard commands.
>>> When people begrudgingly learn JFW keyboard mappings to some degree, do
>>> you
>>> think they will willing go out to learn different key mappings?
>>> Only the techie types do that.
>>> Glenn
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler"<tyler@tysdomain.com>
>>> To: "Glenn"<glennervin@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system 
>>> for
>>> Linux."<speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 3:39 PM
>>> Subject: Re: speakup todo?
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm not really to worried about JFW key mappings honestly. First it's
>>> sort of weird, but mainly if they can't get used to using different
>>> keys, they're never going to live on Linux, at least not in the cli.
>>> On 9/16/2012 2:34 PM, Glenn wrote:
>>>> The big one for SpeakUp would be for it to have the option to switch to
>>>> JFW
>>>> key mappings.
>>>> This will allow many people to switch to Linux easily.
>>>> Microsoft did this with MS Word, allowing people to use Word Perfect 
>>>> key
>>>> mappings.
>>>> I think this is the only way Linux will ever become any more popular to
>>>> screenreader users.
>>>> Glenn
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler"<tyler@tysdomain.com>
>>>> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
>>>> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 1:17 PM
>>>> Subject: speakup todo?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello all:
>>>> I'm trying to transfer, and applying for scholarships and all that I'd
>>>> like to be able to make some contributions to projects that I can note.
>>>> I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I figured
>>>> I'd start by working on something I use almost daily. I'm curious then
>>>> if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup could have to it.
>>>> I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to
>>>> userspace--as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the
>>>> kernel for would be hardware speech (and since serial ports are dying
>>>> out that could be a dead point), and accessing the console directly. 
>>>> How
>>>> easy would it be then, to have speakup run in userspace, but access a
>>>> smaller cut-down version of itself in the kernel to provide the access
>>>> to the console we need?
>>>> We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. It
>>>> could return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it works
>>>> now--one byte is the color, and the other byte is the ascii value. The
>>>> sequence file would just iterate over the console's lines. I'm also
>>>> curious how we'd handle something like key presses like caps+u to move
>>>> up a line etc.
>>>>
>>>> If I'm way off here, I'd still like to help out if possible; is there a
>>>> todo list around, or stuff people would like to see done? If there are
>>>> people willing to answer questions from time to time in terms of the
>>>> kernel programming, since that's something I've not done before, I'm
>>>> game to start coding.
>>>>
>>>> Another question is then, how do people catch panics? Since I'm not
>>>> quite cool enough to write code that just works, I'm sure I'll be
>>>> dealing with panics, but I can't see them on the console and usually
>>>> it's when speakup goes boom anyway.
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Take care,
>>> Ty
>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
>>> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he
>>> that
>>> dares not reason is a slave.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Speakup mailing list
>>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> -- 
> Jason Miller
> Vinux PR Coordinator
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

--
Kirk Reiser The Computer Braille Facility
e-mail: kirk@braille.uwo.ca University of Western Ontario
phone: (519) 661-3061
_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 

Re: speakup todo?

[Cleverson Casarin Uliana]

Hi Brian, would it be hard to make a FreeBSD or Net BSD image with a 
speech-enabled installer using yasr for blind people? I've always wanted 
to experiment with a BSD, but not merely through SSH or the like.

Cheers
Cleverson

Em 17/09/2012 01:31, Brian Buhrow escreveu:
> 	Hello.  If you want to know how Speakup might work in user-space, check
> out yasr, which is a completely user-space based screen reader.  I use it
> every day under NetBSD, where it works wonderfully.
> 	As far as kernel programming goes, see if you can find some books on
> the topic, read kernel code, and learn how to generate and use crash dumps
> so you can do post mortoms  on kernels after they crash.   Learn how to set
> up a serial console since it will let you see panics as they happen, and,
> if you have two machines, learn how to set up and use kgdb, the in-kernel
> gdb debugger.
> 	Kernel code isn't that much different from regular code, both  should
> be easy to read, as efficient as possible without being convoluted, and as
> well tested and bullet proof as possible.
> 	Good luck, and happy hacking!
> On Sep 16, 12:17pm, "Littlefield, Tyler" wrote:
> } Subject: speakup todo?
> } Hello all:
> } I'm trying to transfer, and applying for scholarships and all that I'd
> } like to be able to make some contributions to projects that I can note.
> } I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I figured
> } I'd start by working on something I use almost daily. I'm curious then
> } if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup could have to it.
> } I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to
> } userspace--as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the
> } kernel for would be hardware speech (and since serial ports are dying
> } out that could be a dead point), and accessing the console directly. How
> } easy would it be then, to have speakup run in userspace, but access a
> } smaller cut-down version of itself in the kernel to provide the access
> } to the console we need?
> } We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. It
> } could return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it works
> } now--one byte is the color, and the other byte is the ascii value. The
> } sequence file would just iterate over the console's lines. I'm also
> } curious how we'd handle something like key presses like caps+u to move
> } up a line etc.
> }
> } If I'm way off here, I'd still like to help out if possible; is there a
> } todo list around, or stuff people would like to see done? If there are
> } people willing to answer questions from time to time in terms of the
> } kernel programming, since that's something I've not done before, I'm
> } game to start coding.
> }
> } Another question is then, how do people catch panics? Since I'm not
> } quite cool enough to write code that just works, I'm sure I'll be
> } dealing with panics, but I can't see them on the console and usually
> } it's when speakup goes boom anyway.
> }
> } --
> } Take care,
> } Ty
> } http://tds-solutions.net
> } The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
> } http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
> } He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave.
> }
> } _______________________________________________
> } Speakup mailing list
> } Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> } http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> -- End of excerpt from "Littlefield, Tyler"
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: speakup todo?

[Cleverson Casarin Uliana]

Well, as for new features in Speakup, there are at least two features I 
would love included in Speakup.

First, one should be able to define macro actions and assign them a key. 
For example, on pressing a key, speakup would jump two lines, them jump 
three words to the right, then read the next word.

The second feature would be to define various portions of the screen to 
be silenced or automatically read, and save such portions on a per 
application basis.

Cheers
Cleverson

Em 16/09/2012 15:17, Littlefield, Tyler escreveu:
> Hello all:
> I'm trying to transfer, and applying for scholarships and all that I'd
> like to be able to make some contributions to projects that I can note.
> I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I figured
> I'd start by working on something I use almost daily. I'm curious then
> if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup could have to it.
> I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to
> userspace--as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the
> kernel for would be hardware speech (and since serial ports are dying
> out that could be a dead point), and accessing the console directly. How
> easy would it be then, to have speakup run in userspace, but access a
> smaller cut-down version of itself in the kernel to provide the access
> to the console we need?
> We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. It
> could return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it works
> now--one byte is the color, and the other byte is the ascii value. The
> sequence file would just iterate over the console's lines. I'm also
> curious how we'd handle something like key presses like caps+u to move
> up a line etc.
>
> If I'm way off here, I'd still like to help out if possible; is there a
> todo list around, or stuff people would like to see done? If there are
> people willing to answer questions from time to time in terms of the
> kernel programming, since that's something I've not done before, I'm
> game to start coding.
>
> Another question is then, how do people catch panics? Since I'm not
> quite cool enough to write code that just works, I'm sure I'll be
> dealing with panics, but I can't see them on the console and usually
> it's when speakup goes boom anyway.
>

Re: speakup todo?

[Cleverson Casarin Uliana]

There's also Jupiter, yet another console reader. For more informations, 
please look for it at GitHub as I don't have the exact address right 
now. I only know it runs in user space too.

Cleverson

Em 17/09/2012 08:15, Kyle escreveu:
> I just thought of another userspace example. Have a look at Brltty. I
> believe it is portable to other OS's such as the BSD's, and as far as I
> know, it requires no specialized kernel code. At least on Linux, it can
> start as a system daemon fairly early in the boot process, allowing
> access to all virtual consoles on the system. Brltty also doesn't depend
> on a subshell in order to have full functionality. So Brltty and SBL are
> currently the best to look at to determine whether or not it would be
> possible to make something like Speakup run in userspace, while
> hopefully remaining kernel agnostic. Having said this, I realize that
> SBL may not necessarily be kernel agnostic, but I do believe that Brltty
> is, and therefore it could be a great model to use as a userspace base.
> ~Kyle
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: speakup todo?

[Littlefield, Tyler]

Hello:
I have no clue how you'd do such a thing in Speakup, but I've recently 
started USpeakup, which is well, speakup in user space. I plan to add 
scripting support, so all of this would be perfectly reasonable. I'm 
adding your idea of macros to the ideas list; I had already wanted to 
set things up so that you could manage different regions of the screen; 
any ideas how that might work?
On 9/17/2012 6:31 PM, Cleverson Casarin Uliana wrote:
> Well, as for new features in Speakup, there are at least two features 
> I would love included in Speakup.
>
> First, one should be able to define macro actions and assign them a 
> key. For example, on pressing a key, speakup would jump two lines, 
> them jump three words to the right, then read the next word.
>
> The second feature would be to define various portions of the screen 
> to be silenced or automatically read, and save such portions on a per 
> application basis.
>
> Cheers
> Cleverson
>
> Em 16/09/2012 15:17, Littlefield, Tyler escreveu:
>> Hello all:
>> I'm trying to transfer, and applying for scholarships and all that I'd
>> like to be able to make some contributions to projects that I can note.
>> I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I figured
>> I'd start by working on something I use almost daily. I'm curious then
>> if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup could have to it.
>> I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to
>> userspace--as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the
>> kernel for would be hardware speech (and since serial ports are dying
>> out that could be a dead point), and accessing the console directly. How
>> easy would it be then, to have speakup run in userspace, but access a
>> smaller cut-down version of itself in the kernel to provide the access
>> to the console we need?
>> We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. It
>> could return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it works
>> now--one byte is the color, and the other byte is the ascii value. The
>> sequence file would just iterate over the console's lines. I'm also
>> curious how we'd handle something like key presses like caps+u to move
>> up a line etc.
>>
>> If I'm way off here, I'd still like to help out if possible; is there a
>> todo list around, or stuff people would like to see done? If there are
>> people willing to answer questions from time to time in terms of the
>> kernel programming, since that's something I've not done before, I'm
>> game to start coding.
>>
>> Another question is then, how do people catch panics? Since I'm not
>> quite cool enough to write code that just works, I'm sure I'll be
>> dealing with panics, but I can't see them on the console and usually
>> it's when speakup goes boom anyway.
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup


-- 
Take care,
Ty
http://tds-solutions.net
The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave.

Re: speakup todo?

[Cleverson Casarin Uliana]

Littlefield, Tyler wrote:
> I have no clue how you'd do such a thing in Speakup, but I've recently
> started USpeakup, which is well, speakup in user space. I plan to add
> scripting support, so all of this would be perfectly reasonable. I'm
> adding your idea of macros to the ideas list; I had already wanted to
> set things up so that you could manage different regions of the screen;
Thank you! So, let me suggest one more thing: whenever possible, you 
might use standard programming languages for coding, so we may port it 
to BSD and other OSes in the future, then we port ESpeak too, and it 
will be straight for anyone to use other systems even in other human 
languages like mine, Brazilian Portuguese, as ESpeak supports it.

Thanks again,
Cleverson

Re: speakup todo?

[Littlefield, Tyler]

What is a "standard programming language?"
It's written in c++, with dependencies on Boost which works on BSD, with 
Lua as a scripting language which also compiles on BSD. Is that what you 
were aiming for?
On 9/17/2012 6:59 PM, Cleverson Casarin Uliana wrote:
> Littlefield, Tyler wrote:
>> I have no clue how you'd do such a thing in Speakup, but I've recently
>> started USpeakup, which is well, speakup in user space. I plan to add
>> scripting support, so all of this would be perfectly reasonable. I'm
>> adding your idea of macros to the ideas list; I had already wanted to
>> set things up so that you could manage different regions of the screen;
> Thank you! So, let me suggest one more thing: whenever possible, you 
> might use standard programming languages for coding, so we may port it 
> to BSD and other OSes in the future, then we port ESpeak too, and it 
> will be straight for anyone to use other systems even in other human 
> languages like mine, Brazilian Portuguese, as ESpeak supports it.
>
> Thanks again,
> Cleverson
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup


-- 
Take care,
Ty
http://tds-solutions.net
The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave.

Re: speakup todo?

[Kyle]

Jupiter is actually a hybrid that runs in userspace and also has a 
kernel module.
http://eklhad.net/edbrowse/jupiter.html
According to the write-up I found at this link, the kernal module is 
used to carry keyboard and tty events to userspace, where the userspace 
application then speaks the content of the screen and responds to 
keyboard events. So although it runs partially in userspace and in fact 
will interface with a hardware speech synthesizer using a USB to serial 
converter, it unfortunately wouldn't be portable enough to run on BSD or 
similar, unless the device driver could be adapted to the BSD  or other 
kernel, and if that is possible, then it should also be possible to port 
Speakup in the same way.
~Kyle

Re: speakup todo?

[Kyle]

Tyler,
Do you have a link or a github repo for USpeakup? I am very much 
interested in working with it, mostly for testing purposes at this 
point, but possibly for some coding help as well in the future. Thanks.
~Kyle

Re: speakup todo?

[Kirk Reiser]

Both very good ideas which I believe are already in the ToDo file.  At
least, application configuration loading is.  Whether or not we will
ever see features like that depends on if anyone takes on actively
working on speakup again.  I can't see myself getting to it.

As for silencing portions of the screen, you can currently quiet any
rectangular area of the screen by placing your reading cursor on your
starting position and typing speakup-f2 then placing your reading
cursor on your end position and once again typing speakup-f2.  Then
you can silence that area with speakup-f4.  I use it to silence the
status line in emacs when I get tired of hearing the time/load average
and whatever else I have displayed there.

This of course is not as nice as having it load automagically when you
load emacs but one of the really nice things about linux is you can
have many consoles.  I typically have twelve and always have one open
in emacs.

On Mon, 17 Sep 2012, Cleverson Casarin Uliana wrote:

> Well, as for new features in Speakup, there are at least two features I would 
> love included in Speakup.
>
> First, one should be able to define macro actions and assign them a key. For 
> example, on pressing a key, speakup would jump two lines, them jump three 
> words to the right, then read the next word.
>
> The second feature would be to define various portions of the screen to be 
> silenced or automatically read, and save such portions on a per application 
> basis.
>
> Cheers
> Cleverson
>
> Em 16/09/2012 15:17, Littlefield, Tyler escreveu:
>> Hello all:
>> I'm trying to transfer, and applying for scholarships and all that I'd
>> like to be able to make some contributions to projects that I can note.
>> I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I figured
>> I'd start by working on something I use almost daily. I'm curious then
>> if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup could have to it.
>> I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to
>> userspace--as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the
>> kernel for would be hardware speech (and since serial ports are dying
>> out that could be a dead point), and accessing the console directly. How
>> easy would it be then, to have speakup run in userspace, but access a
>> smaller cut-down version of itself in the kernel to provide the access
>> to the console we need?
>> We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. It
>> could return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it works
>> now--one byte is the color, and the other byte is the ascii value. The
>> sequence file would just iterate over the console's lines. I'm also
>> curious how we'd handle something like key presses like caps+u to move
>> up a line etc.
>> 
>> If I'm way off here, I'd still like to help out if possible; is there a
>> todo list around, or stuff people would like to see done? If there are
>> people willing to answer questions from time to time in terms of the
>> kernel programming, since that's something I've not done before, I'm
>> game to start coding.
>> 
>> Another question is then, how do people catch panics? Since I'm not
>> quite cool enough to write code that just works, I'm sure I'll be
>> dealing with panics, but I can't see them on the console and usually
>> it's when speakup goes boom anyway.
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

--
Kirk Reiser				The Computer Braille Facility
e-mail: kirk@braille.uwo.ca		University of Western Ontario
phone: (519) 661-3061

Re: speakup todo?

[Cleverson Casarin Uliana]

Hi, yes, I just meant for you to try not tieing it to Linux very much.

Cheers
Cleverson

Em 17/09/2012 22:00, Littlefield, Tyler escreveu:
> What is a "standard programming language?"
> It's written in c++, with dependencies on Boost which works on BSD, with
> Lua as a scripting language which also compiles on BSD. Is that what you
> were aiming for?
> On 9/17/2012 6:59 PM, Cleverson Casarin Uliana wrote:
>> Littlefield, Tyler wrote:
>>> I have no clue how you'd do such a thing in Speakup, but I've recently
>>> started USpeakup, which is well, speakup in user space. I plan to add
>>> scripting support, so all of this would be perfectly reasonable. I'm
>>> adding your idea of macros to the ideas list; I had already wanted to
>>> set things up so that you could manage different regions of the screen;
>> Thank you! So, let me suggest one more thing: whenever possible, you
>> might use standard programming languages for coding, so we may port it
>> to BSD and other OSes in the future, then we port ESpeak too, and it
>> will be straight for anyone to use other systems even in other human
>> languages like mine, Brazilian Portuguese, as ESpeak supports it.
>>
>> Thanks again,
>> Cleverson
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: speakup todo?

[Cleverson Casarin Uliana]

OK, thank you Kirk; I knew this feature of F2 and F4, but it's not 
possible to save it among Linux sessions, nor have more than one defined 
screen area at a time, right?

Cheers
Cleverson

Em 17/09/2012 22:18, Kirk Reiser escreveu:
> Both very good ideas which I believe are already in the ToDo file. At
> least, application configuration loading is. Whether or not we will
> ever see features like that depends on if anyone takes on actively
> working on speakup again. I can't see myself getting to it.
>
> As for silencing portions of the screen, you can currently quiet any
> rectangular area of the screen by placing your reading cursor on your
> starting position and typing speakup-f2 then placing your reading
> cursor on your end position and once again typing speakup-f2. Then
> you can silence that area with speakup-f4. I use it to silence the
> status line in emacs when I get tired of hearing the time/load average
> and whatever else I have displayed there.
>
> This of course is not as nice as having it load automagically when you
> load emacs but one of the really nice things about linux is you can
> have many consoles. I typically have twelve and always have one open
> in emacs.
>
> On Mon, 17 Sep 2012, Cleverson Casarin Uliana wrote:
>
>> Well, as for new features in Speakup, there are at least two features
>> I would love included in Speakup.
>>
>> First, one should be able to define macro actions and assign them a
>> key. For example, on pressing a key, speakup would jump two lines,
>> them jump three words to the right, then read the next word.
>>
>> The second feature would be to define various portions of the screen
>> to be silenced or automatically read, and save such portions on a per
>> application basis.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Cleverson
>>
>> Em 16/09/2012 15:17, Littlefield, Tyler escreveu:
>>> Hello all:
>>> I'm trying to transfer, and applying for scholarships and all that I'd
>>> like to be able to make some contributions to projects that I can note.
>>> I'm interested in learning more about kernel programming, and I figured
>>> I'd start by working on something I use almost daily. I'm curious then
>>> if there's some sort of todo or improvements speakup could have to it.
>>> I'd also be curious if someone has thought about moving it to
>>> userspace--as far as I know, the only thing that we really need the
>>> kernel for would be hardware speech (and since serial ports are dying
>>> out that could be a dead point), and accessing the console directly. How
>>> easy would it be then, to have speakup run in userspace, but access a
>>> smaller cut-down version of itself in the kernel to provide the access
>>> to the console we need?
>>> We could use sequence files and access the console through /proc. It
>>> could return a file of 2-byte chars, which I believe is how it works
>>> now--one byte is the color, and the other byte is the ascii value. The
>>> sequence file would just iterate over the console's lines. I'm also
>>> curious how we'd handle something like key presses like caps+u to move
>>> up a line etc.
>>>
>>> If I'm way off here, I'd still like to help out if possible; is there a
>>> todo list around, or stuff people would like to see done? If there are
>>> people willing to answer questions from time to time in terms of the
>>> kernel programming, since that's something I've not done before, I'm
>>> game to start coding.
>>>
>>> Another question is then, how do people catch panics? Since I'm not
>>> quite cool enough to write code that just works, I'm sure I'll be
>>> dealing with panics, but I can't see them on the console and usually
>>> it's when speakup goes boom anyway.
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>
> --
> Kirk Reiser The Computer Braille Facility
> e-mail: kirk@braille.uwo.ca University of Western Ontario
> phone: (519) 661-3061
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>