I'm sorry, but I'm desperet

I'm sorry, but I'm desperet

[Chris]

i know that this may be a real selfish attitude to have, but i'm just about
fed up with Slackware...  This peace a...  i'm trying to install the alsa
drivers for the sb live value emu10k1.

The stupid thing's giving me syntax errors, or b, telling me to rerun the
configure script as first.  i can't begin to imagine what I'm doing wrong...

i need either to phone someone in the u s as soon! as possible, or b, you
may call me at:  704-540-2324

just make sure if you do call to begin by telling me who you are and that I
know you from the speakup mailing list so I don't get confused.

i honestly can say, if I can't get my sound up and going, then I don't think
linux'll be worth it...


i'm willing to give it a shot, but not unless...


Chris.

Re: I'm sorry, but I'm desperet

[Chris]

You know what, i really hate people with that type attitude.  it almost
seems to me as if you don't even care to help, like one a these RTFM people,
and by that i don't mean f=fine either...

All I'm asking for is some help, and yes I read the documentation, how else
would i a done it...  I'm not ententionally trying to sound rude, but my God
and a mile and a half!  your reply seemed very cold to me...

i'm only asking for a little help.  is that too much to ask?


Chris.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Gregory Nowak" <greg@romuald.net.eu.org>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 5:42 PM
Subject: Re: I'm sorry, but I'm desperet


> This isn't a slackware, but an alsa problem.
>
> First of all, did you read the documentation?
>
> Greg
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 16, 2003 at 05:29:53PM -0400, Chris wrote:
> > i know that this may be a real selfish attitude to have, but i'm just
about
> > fed up with Slackware...  This peace a...  i'm trying to install the
alsa
> > drivers for the sb live value emu10k1.
> >
> > The stupid thing's giving me syntax errors, or b, telling me to rerun
the
> > configure script as first.  i can't begin to imagine what I'm doing
wrong...
> >
> > i need either to phone someone in the u s as soon! as possible, or b,
you
> > may call me at:  704-540-2324
> >
> > just make sure if you do call to begin by telling me who you are and
that I
> > know you from the speakup mailing list so I don't get confused.
> >
> > i honestly can say, if I can't get my sound up and going, then I don't
think
> > linux'll be worth it...
> >
> >
> > i'm willing to give it a shot, but not unless...
> >
> >
> > Chris.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> --
> Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: I'm sorry, but I'm desperet

[Chris]

Ann?  thank you thank you thank you.


This is exactly! the type attitude that I love to see, and I really
appreciate your comments...  i can't tell you how much it means to me to
have friends like you who are willing to see my determination and yeah, Ann
said it quite well...  i've been struggling quite a bit, and really am
trying...  I think with me, the problem with documentation is that i've
always been a bit exceptionally chalenged when it comes to learning...  When
i was in school, I had to be in the E C department...  not all the time, no,
but some of the time...  i had to have a teacher aide if that tells yall
something...
For me, saying read the manual turns me off, cause I've never been able to
do that and retain what I have read.  It's easier, when someone doesn't baby
me now, but at least verbally, not e-mail, not IM's but verbally talks me
through what I need done...  and i really understand most of you all are
more experienced than I am, and probably just want to move on, but if yall
will please just vare with me for a bit, i'm not asking it to be
permanently, but just enough to get me through this learning curve...  keep
in mind, i've totally been brought up first,on dos,and then taken to win3.x,
and now to win9x, and maybe even some of win xp, which I can't stand mind
you...  just try to have a little heart, and help me out...  I promise i'll
learn, and be able to lean more away from yall, but for now, I need all the
help I can get...  even if it's as simple as asking how to untar a file...

Sorry if I came on at first as ignerant.  it wasn't my ententions, but
remember, you were once in this creek as well, so try to help me, not shove
me...


Chris.

Re: I'm sorry, but I'm desperet

[Chris]

W'w'w'w'wo!

hear he, hear he!


LOL!

ROFL!


Chris.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Glenn Ervin at home" <GlennErvin@cableone.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 11:50 PM
Subject: Re: I'm sorry, but I'm desperet


> Hello Greg,
> Some people learn better by trial and error, as opposed to reading a
manual.
> You mentioned "laziness or impatient".
> I must admit that I am sometimes too impatient to read a manual, but there
I
> must just consider this a learning style.
> Where I can spend hours figuring out a program or O S, and not be
> frustrated, I sometimes find it difficult to read a manual, and read
through
> 80% of material covering common sense, and 10% of stuff I will never need,
> only  to get to a small portion of help that I really need.
> So when someone asks me if I read the manual, I want to ask them something
> rude in return, but I don't.
> I think this is one of the reasons a list like this exists.
> If I am wrong, I'll be glad to leave.
> Glenn.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gregory Nowak" <greg@romuald.net.eu.org>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 10:26 PM
> Subject: Re: I'm sorry, but I'm desperet
>
>
> By asking if Chris had read the docs, I was simply attempting to
> determine which parts of the configuration he was specifically having
> trouble with. Configuring alsa can be an involved process, and I
> didn't want to give an unnecessarily long explanation, when I could
> have spent the same amount of time addressing a particular issue in
> more detail.
>
> Also, I am finding that I need to ask people if they have read the
> documentation, as unfortunate as that may be. The sad fact is that
> most people expect someone else to do everything for them, while they
> expect to learn nothing about it, and take advantage of the other
> person's work on their behalf at the same time. I don't mind teaching
> and explaining whatever I can. However I do mind if someone just
> expects me to do all the work for them because they're to
> lazy/impatient to read up on the procedure themselves. Note that
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: I'm sorry, but I'm desperet

[Gregory Nowak]

This isn't a slackware, but an alsa problem.

First of all, did you read the documentation?

Greg


On Tue, Sep 16, 2003 at 05:29:53PM -0400, Chris wrote:
> i know that this may be a real selfish attitude to have, but i'm just about
> fed up with Slackware...  This peace a...  i'm trying to install the alsa
> drivers for the sb live value emu10k1.
> 
> The stupid thing's giving me syntax errors, or b, telling me to rerun the
> configure script as first.  i can't begin to imagine what I'm doing wrong...
> 
> i need either to phone someone in the u s as soon! as possible, or b, you
> may call me at:  704-540-2324
> 
> just make sure if you do call to begin by telling me who you are and that I
> know you from the speakup mailing list so I don't get confused.
> 
> i honestly can say, if I can't get my sound up and going, then I don't think
> linux'll be worth it...
> 
> 
> i'm willing to give it a shot, but not unless...
> 
> 
> Chris.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org

Re: I'm sorry, but I'm desperet

[Glenn Ervin at home]

Chris,
I too don't like that response:
"look in the how to's"
and the like.
If someone is an otherwise experienced person with technology, then a good
piece of software or an operating system should be intuitive, and it should
be do-able without reading documentation.
With winblows and all of its flaws, I can at least say that the average user
with an interest in figuring it out can do so without documentation.
I have learned DOS and winblows without ever touching any documentation.

Glenn

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chris" <chris@mailvision.ath.cx>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: I'm sorry, but I'm desperet


You know what, i really hate people with that type attitude.  it almost
seems to me as if you don't even care to help, like one a these RTFM people,
and by that i don't mean f=fine either...

All I'm asking for is some help, and yes I read the documentation, how else
would i a done it...  I'm not ententionally trying to sound rude, but my God
and a mile and a half!  your reply seemed very cold to me...

i'm only asking for a little help.  is that too much to ask?


Chris.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Gregory Nowak" <greg@romuald.net.eu.org>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 5:42 PM
Subject: Re: I'm sorry, but I'm desperet


> This isn't a slackware, but an alsa problem.
>
> First of all, did you read the documentation?
>
> Greg
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 16, 2003 at 05:29:53PM -0400, Chris wrote:
> > i know that this may be a real selfish attitude to have, but i'm just
about
> > fed up with Slackware...  This peace a...  i'm trying to install the
alsa
> > drivers for the sb live value emu10k1.
> >
> > The stupid thing's giving me syntax errors, or b, telling me to rerun
the
> > configure script as first.  i can't begin to imagine what I'm doing
wrong...
> >
> > i need either to phone someone in the u s as soon! as possible, or b,
you
> > may call me at:  704-540-2324
> >
> > just make sure if you do call to begin by telling me who you are and
that I
> > know you from the speakup mailing list so I don't get confused.
> >
> > i honestly can say, if I can't get my sound up and going, then I don't
think
> > linux'll be worth it...
> >
> >
> > i'm willing to give it a shot, but not unless...
> >
> >
> > Chris.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> --
> Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: I'm sorry, but I'm desperet

[Joseph C. Lininger]

Hey now, no need for that. Greg was simply asking if you'd read the manual,
which is a perfectly legitimate question. All he was getting at is that
sometimes the answer your looking for is in the documentation, and not
everyone bothers to read it. I don't know how many people have asked me
questions that were answered very clearly in the manual. I think if you want
any help from the people on this list you'd better learn to be a little more
considerate.
--
Joseph C. Lininger
jbahm@pcdesk.net
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chris" <chris@mailvision.ath.cx>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 4:03 PM
Subject: Re: I'm sorry, but I'm desperet


> You know what, i really hate people with that type attitude.  it almost
> seems to me as if you don't even care to help, like one a these RTFM
people,
> and by that i don't mean f=fine either...
>
> All I'm asking for is some help, and yes I read the documentation, how
else
> would i a done it...  I'm not ententionally trying to sound rude, but my
God
> and a mile and a half!  your reply seemed very cold to me...
>
> i'm only asking for a little help.  is that too much to ask?
>
>
> Chris.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gregory Nowak" <greg@romuald.net.eu.org>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 5:42 PM
> Subject: Re: I'm sorry, but I'm desperet
>
>
> > This isn't a slackware, but an alsa problem.
> >
> > First of all, did you read the documentation?
> >
> > Greg
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 16, 2003 at 05:29:53PM -0400, Chris wrote:
> > > i know that this may be a real selfish attitude to have, but i'm just
> about
> > > fed up with Slackware...  This peace a...  i'm trying to install the
> alsa
> > > drivers for the sb live value emu10k1.
> > >
> > > The stupid thing's giving me syntax errors, or b, telling me to rerun
> the
> > > configure script as first.  i can't begin to imagine what I'm doing
> wrong...
> > >
> > > i need either to phone someone in the u s as soon! as possible, or b,
> you
> > > may call me at:  704-540-2324
> > >
> > > just make sure if you do call to begin by telling me who you are and
> that I
> > > know you from the speakup mailing list so I don't get confused.
> > >
> > > i honestly can say, if I can't get my sound up and going, then I don't
> think
> > > linux'll be worth it...
> > >
> > >
> > > i'm willing to give it a shot, but not unless...
> > >
> > >
> > > Chris.
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> > --
> > Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: I'm sorry, but I'm desperet

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

The question about whether someone had read the manual can, in some
cases, become a match that sets off an explosion.  If Chris has been
reading the manual, and something isn't clear that is preventing the
Alsa drivers from compiling properly, then he needs help to interpret
what he has read.  Sometimes reading the manual compounds the
problem.  

I think that Chris would be better served if his questions were
answered rather than inquiring as to his competency in reading man
pages.  

"Have you read the manual?", is a easy, quick and dirty solution to
someone's problem.  I know that it is important to understand
documentation, but sometimes one needs to talk to a human, not a
manual.  Sounds like Chris has been struggling with alsa for a long
time.  I can't help, don't know enough.  However, I do know that
configuring Alsa can be complicated and frustrating.  Let's not get a
bad rep like the Emacspeak list, guys.  Somebody, please give this guy
a hand.  

Ann P.
 
-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: I'm sorry, but I'm desperet

[Gregory Nowak]

By asking if Chris had read the docs, I was simply attempting to
determine which parts of the configuration he was specifically having
trouble with. Configuring alsa can be an involved process, and I
didn't want to give an unnecessarily long explanation, when I could
have spent the same amount of time addressing a particular issue in
more detail.

Also, I am finding that I need to ask people if they have read the
documentation, as unfortunate as that may be. The sad fact is that
most people expect someone else to do everything for them, while they
expect to learn nothing about it, and take advantage of the other
person's work on their behalf at the same time. I don't mind teaching
and explaining whatever I can. However I do mind if someone just
expects me to do all the work for them because they're to
lazy/impatient to read up on the procedure themselves. Note that I am
not implying here that Chris has either of these traits, I am just
stating what I have met with, when asked to help someone with
something in the past.

While I also understand that newbys can be frustrated if something
doesn't work as expected (I was there myself once), lashing out at
someone who bothers to take their free time to try and help you, may
discourage that individual in the future from trying to help others,
and that wouldn't be to any person's advantage.

Greg


On Wed, Sep 17, 2003 at 10:50:26PM -0400, Ann Parsons wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> The question about whether someone had read the manual can, in some
> cases, become a match that sets off an explosion.  If Chris has been
> reading the manual, and something isn't clear that is preventing the
> Alsa drivers from compiling properly, then he needs help to interpret
> what he has read.  Sometimes reading the manual compounds the
> problem.  
> 
> I think that Chris would be better served if his questions were
> answered rather than inquiring as to his competency in reading man
> pages.  
> 
> "Have you read the manual?", is a easy, quick and dirty solution to
> someone's problem.  I know that it is important to understand
> documentation, but sometimes one needs to talk to a human, not a
> manual.  Sounds like Chris has been struggling with alsa for a long
> time.  I can't help, don't know enough.  However, I do know that
> configuring Alsa can be complicated and frustrating.  Let's not get a
> bad rep like the Emacspeak list, guys.  Somebody, please give this guy
> a hand.  
> 
> Ann P.
>  
> -- 
> 			Ann K. Parsons  
> email:  akp@eznet.net 			
> WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org

Re: I'm sorry, but I'm desperet

[Glenn Ervin at home]

Hello Greg,
Some people learn better by trial and error, as opposed to reading a manual.
You mentioned "laziness or impatient".
I must admit that I am sometimes too impatient to read a manual, but there I
must just consider this a learning style.
Where I can spend hours figuring out a program or O S, and not be
frustrated, I sometimes find it difficult to read a manual, and read through
80% of material covering common sense, and 10% of stuff I will never need,
only  to get to a small portion of help that I really need.
So when someone asks me if I read the manual, I want to ask them something
rude in return, but I don't.
I think this is one of the reasons a list like this exists.
If I am wrong, I'll be glad to leave.
Glenn.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gregory Nowak" <greg@romuald.net.eu.org>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 10:26 PM
Subject: Re: I'm sorry, but I'm desperet


By asking if Chris had read the docs, I was simply attempting to
determine which parts of the configuration he was specifically having
trouble with. Configuring alsa can be an involved process, and I
didn't want to give an unnecessarily long explanation, when I could
have spent the same amount of time addressing a particular issue in
more detail.

Also, I am finding that I need to ask people if they have read the
documentation, as unfortunate as that may be. The sad fact is that
most people expect someone else to do everything for them, while they
expect to learn nothing about it, and take advantage of the other
person's work on their behalf at the same time. I don't mind teaching
and explaining whatever I can. However I do mind if someone just
expects me to do all the work for them because they're to
lazy/impatient to read up on the procedure themselves. Note that

Re: I'm sorry, but I'm desperet

[Chris Gilland]

Well, I say it's working...  I mean again, the sound could be louder
without distorting, but hey, whatever...  i'll sacrifice as I said on the
phone...

also I don't know if it will work on my user account since I can't still
get to my windows drive under my user...  it's still saying permision
denied...  joe, if you want to log in and take care of this then you
certainly can I'll leave the system up and I mean you have the root
password etc. so we're set to go...


Chris.




On Thu, 18 Sep 2003, Joseph C. Lininger wrote:

> He called me and we've got the sound card working now.
> --
> Joseph C. Lininger
> jbahm@pcdesk.net
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 8:50 PM
> Subject: Re: I'm sorry, but I'm desperet
>
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > The question about whether someone had read the manual can, in some
> > cases, become a match that sets off an explosion.  If Chris has been
> > reading the manual, and something isn't clear that is preventing the
> > Alsa drivers from compiling properly, then he needs help to interpret
> > what he has read.  Sometimes reading the manual compounds the
> > problem.
> >
> > I think that Chris would be better served if his questions were
> > answered rather than inquiring as to his competency in reading man
> > pages.
> >
> > "Have you read the manual?", is a easy, quick and dirty solution to
> > someone's problem.  I know that it is important to understand
> > documentation, but sometimes one needs to talk to a human, not a
> > manual.  Sounds like Chris has been struggling with alsa for a long
> > time.  I can't help, don't know enough.  However, I do know that
> > configuring Alsa can be complicated and frustrating.  Let's not get a
> > bad rep like the Emacspeak list, guys.  Somebody, please give this guy
> > a hand.
> >
> > Ann P.
> >
> > --
> > Ann K. Parsons
> > email:  akp@eznet.net
> > WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> > "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
> JRRT
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: I'm sorry, but I'm desperet

[Charles Crawford]

	I am kind of in agreement that Linux could be a great deal more 
easy with a better command line interpreter but that ain't the case.  So 
we have a choice, either stay with Windows and all of it's control over 
our computing lives or take the time to learn the logic and sintax of 
Linux.  Once that task is done, then it is truly an amazing operating 
system that grows on you like an old friend.  I am not there in terms of 
my knowledge but I really have grown to like it quite a bit and suggest 
that you take the time to read the how tos and once you get familiar 
with it then it will reallly do great stuff for you.   

	You know there is always Windows and an albeit limited dos world 
that provides freedom on it's terms of not allowing you to do lots of 
stuff and I still use those systems quite a bit.  I especially like 
WordPerfect 5.1 and the programs I wrote in XBVASE, but eventually Linux 
will give me flexibility that I had never dreamed possible.  I will 
learn how to program in languages that Linux uses and port my old stuff 
here.  

	OK OK, I've said enough, but just want you to know many of us 
share your frustrations and are working towards what promises to be a very 
worthwhile goal.

 On Wed, 17 Sep 2003, Glenn Ervin at home wrote:

> Chris,
> I too don't like that response:
> "look in the how to's"
> and the like.
> If someone is an otherwise experienced person with technology, then a good
> piece of software or an operating system should be intuitive, and it should
> be do-able without reading documentation.
> With winblows and all of its flaws, I can at least say that the average user
> with an interest in figuring it out can do so without documentation.
> I have learned DOS and winblows without ever touching any documentation.
> 
> Glenn
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Chris" <chris@mailvision.ath.cx>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 5:03 PM
> Subject: Re: I'm sorry, but I'm desperet
> 
> 
> You know what, i really hate people with that type attitude.  it almost
> seems to me as if you don't even care to help, like one a these RTFM people,
> and by that i don't mean f=fine either...
> 
> All I'm asking for is some help, and yes I read the documentation, how else
> would i a done it...  I'm not ententionally trying to sound rude, but my God
> and a mile and a half!  your reply seemed very cold to me...
> 
> i'm only asking for a little help.  is that too much to ask?
> 
> 
> Chris.
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gregory Nowak" <greg@romuald.net.eu.org>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 5:42 PM
> Subject: Re: I'm sorry, but I'm desperet
> 
> 
> > This isn't a slackware, but an alsa problem.
> >
> > First of all, did you read the documentation?
> >
> > Greg
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 16, 2003 at 05:29:53PM -0400, Chris wrote:
> > > i know that this may be a real selfish attitude to have, but i'm just
> about
> > > fed up with Slackware...  This peace a...  i'm trying to install the
> alsa
> > > drivers for the sb live value emu10k1.
> > >
> > > The stupid thing's giving me syntax errors, or b, telling me to rerun
> the
> > > configure script as first.  i can't begin to imagine what I'm doing
> wrong...
> > >
> > > i need either to phone someone in the u s as soon! as possible, or b,
> you
> > > may call me at:  704-540-2324
> > >
> > > just make sure if you do call to begin by telling me who you are and
> that I
> > > know you from the speakup mailing list so I don't get confused.
> > >
> > > i honestly can say, if I can't get my sound up and going, then I don't
> think
> > > linux'll be worth it...
> > >
> > >
> > > i'm willing to give it a shot, but not unless...
> > >
> > >
> > > Chris.
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> > --
> > Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
-- Charlie Crawford

Re: I'm sorry, but I'm desperet

[Léonie Watson]

Chris,

    If you've found the going anything like me, then trying to get at
documentation has been as problematic as trying to understand the right
methods for doing anything.

    I do agree with Greg that documentation is a good source of information
and as someone else mentioned, people do tend to skip the effort of reading
up, in the hope of getting an easy answer from an expert. But the key is
that as long as we all give it a shot, then asking for help is cool. It's
one of the things I like most about the Net... the fact that you can hook up
with a bunch of people wiser on a given subject than you are and learn from
them, as you learn yourself.

    The change from Windows to Linux is not an easy one to make however.
I've lost count of the tutorials and hotos that assume I know how to
download something and install it and that work on the basis that I even
know what a tar-ball is. It's a great OS, I'm liking it already, but the
frustration at not being able to accomplish in Linux, what would take me 30
seconds on Windows is incredible.

    Perhaps I need a "Linux for Muppets" web site? LOL.

Tink

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris" <chris@mailvision.ath.cx>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: I'm sorry, but I'm desperet


> Ann?  thank you thank you thank you.
>
>
> This is exactly! the type attitude that I love to see, and I really
> appreciate your comments...  i can't tell you how much it means to me to
> have friends like you who are willing to see my determination and yeah,
Ann
> said it quite well...  i've been struggling quite a bit, and really am
> trying...  I think with me, the problem with documentation is that i've
> always been a bit exceptionally chalenged when it comes to learning...
When
> i was in school, I had to be in the E C department...  not all the time,
no,
> but some of the time...  i had to have a teacher aide if that tells yall
> something...
> For me, saying read the manual turns me off, cause I've never been able to
> do that and retain what I have read.  It's easier, when someone doesn't
baby
> me now, but at least verbally, not e-mail, not IM's but verbally talks me
> through what I need done...  and i really understand most of you all are
> more experienced than I am, and probably just want to move on, but if yall
> will please just vare with me for a bit, i'm not asking it to be
> permanently, but just enough to get me through this learning curve...
keep
> in mind, i've totally been brought up first,on dos,and then taken to
win3.x,
> and now to win9x, and maybe even some of win xp, which I can't stand mind
> you...  just try to have a little heart, and help me out...  I promise
i'll
> learn, and be able to lean more away from yall, but for now, I need all
the
> help I can get...  even if it's as simple as asking how to untar a file...
>
> Sorry if I came on at first as ignerant.  it wasn't my ententions, but
> remember, you were once in this creek as well, so try to help me, not
shove
> me...
>
>
> Chris.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: I'm sorry, but I'm desperet

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

Greg, understand completely.  Perhaps if you had explained why you
were asking, chris might not have become so irate.  <smile>  I
understand that he was back at square One and that the reason he
wasn't getting anything to compile was that he was unaware that he
needed some supporting libraries and compiler stuff too.  You were
right to ask, but you needed to explain why. 

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: I'm sorry, but I'm desperet

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

Well, now, you needn't be so ephusive, but I'll take one or two
compliments.  Yep, been where you are.  Hang in there.

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: I'm sorry, but I'm desperet

[Danny Crone]

Hello Charles.  I like the way that some things I do are quicker using 
linux.  One of these is appending to text filess while in pine.  I like 
the fact that, so far, my linux box has never crashed.

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003, 
Charles Crawford wrote:

> 	I am kind of in agreement that Linux could be a great deal more 
> easy with a better command line interpreter but that ain't the case.  So 
> we have a choice, either stay with Windows and all of it's control over 
> our computing lives or take the time to learn the logic and sintax of 
> Linux.  Once that task is done, then it is truly an amazing operating 
> system that grows on you like an old friend.  I am not there in terms of 
> my knowledge but I really have grown to like it quite a bit and suggest 
> that you take the time to read the how tos and once you get familiar 
> with it then it will reallly do great stuff for you.   
> 
> 	You know there is always Windows and an albeit limited dos world 
> that provides freedom on it's terms of not allowing you to do lots of 
> stuff and I still use those systems quite a bit.  I especially like 
> WordPerfect 5.1 and the programs I wrote in XBVASE, but eventually Linux 
> will give me flexibility that I had never dreamed possible.  I will 
> learn how to program in languages that Linux uses and port my old stuff 
> here.  
> 
> 	OK OK, I've said enough, but just want you to know many of us 
> share your frustrations and are working towards what promises to be a very 
> worthwhile goal.
> 
>  On Wed, 17 Sep 2003, Glenn Ervin at home wrote:
> 
> > Chris,
> > I too don't like that response:
> > "look in the how to's"
> > and the like.
> > If someone is an otherwise experienced person with technology, then a good
> > piece of software or an operating system should be intuitive, and it should
> > be do-able without reading documentation.
> > With winblows and all of its flaws, I can at least say that the average user
> > with an interest in figuring it out can do so without documentation.
> > I have learned DOS and winblows without ever touching any documentation.
> > 
> > Glenn
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Chris" <chris@mailvision.ath.cx>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 5:03 PM
> > Subject: Re: I'm sorry, but I'm desperet
> > 
> > 
> > You know what, i really hate people with that type attitude.  it almost
> > seems to me as if you don't even care to help, like one a these RTFM people,
> > and by that i don't mean f=fine either...
> > 
> > All I'm asking for is some help, and yes I read the documentation, how else
> > would i a done it...  I'm not ententionally trying to sound rude, but my God
> > and a mile and a half!  your reply seemed very cold to me...
> > 
> > i'm only asking for a little help.  is that too much to ask?
> > 
> > 
> > Chris.
> > 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Gregory Nowak" <greg@romuald.net.eu.org>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 5:42 PM
> > Subject: Re: I'm sorry, but I'm desperet
> > 
> > 
> > > This isn't a slackware, but an alsa problem.
> > >
> > > First of all, did you read the documentation?
> > >
> > > Greg
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Sep 16, 2003 at 05:29:53PM -0400, Chris wrote:
> > > > i know that this may be a real selfish attitude to have, but i'm just
> > about
> > > > fed up with Slackware...  This peace a...  i'm trying to install the
> > alsa
> > > > drivers for the sb live value emu10k1.
> > > >
> > > > The stupid thing's giving me syntax errors, or b, telling me to rerun
> > the
> > > > configure script as first.  i can't begin to imagine what I'm doing
> > wrong...
> > > >
> > > > i need either to phone someone in the u s as soon! as possible, or b,
> > you
> > > > may call me at:  704-540-2324
> > > >
> > > > just make sure if you do call to begin by telling me who you are and
> > that I
> > > > know you from the speakup mailing list so I don't get confused.
> > > >
> > > > i honestly can say, if I can't get my sound up and going, then I don't
> > think
> > > > linux'll be worth it...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > i'm willing to give it a shot, but not unless...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Chris.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > > --
> > > Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> 

Re: I'm sorry, but I'm desperet

[Janina Sajka]

Stick around, Glenn, unless, of course, your skin is on the thin side.

As someone who is probably notorious for saying rtfm, let me add that my
style is like you describe your style. I'd rather dive in than read the
manual. So, that's what I do, I dive in. Guess what? I fail. So, I go
read the manual, and it doesn't make sense, and it seems that 90% isn't
even about what I'm hanging on. But, something invariably makes sens in
the manual. Maybe it doesn't make sense right away. Maybe it only makes
sense a day or two later, after I've slept on it.

Then I go and try again. And I fail again. But this time the error is
different. So, I go read the manual again. And, what do you know? 90% of
it still appears irrelevant?

But, it's not the same 90%. So, how do you explain that? I'm still
trying to figure out how some part of the manual that seemed irrelevant,
all of a sudden becomes very relevant. It's a mystery, I know.


Glenn Ervin at home writes:
> From: "Glenn Ervin at home" <GlennErvin@cableone.net>
> 
> Hello Greg,
> Some people learn better by trial and error, as opposed to reading a manual.
> You mentioned "laziness or impatient".
> I must admit that I am sometimes too impatient to read a manual, but there I
> must just consider this a learning style.
> Where I can spend hours figuring out a program or O S, and not be
> frustrated, I sometimes find it difficult to read a manual, and read through
> 80% of material covering common sense, and 10% of stuff I will never need,
> only  to get to a small portion of help that I really need.
> So when someone asks me if I read the manual, I want to ask them something
> rude in return, but I don't.
> I think this is one of the reasons a list like this exists.
> If I am wrong, I'll be glad to leave.
> Glenn.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Gregory Nowak" <greg@romuald.net.eu.org>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 10:26 PM
> Subject: Re: I'm sorry, but I'm desperet
> 
> 
> By asking if Chris had read the docs, I was simply attempting to
> determine which parts of the configuration he was specifically having
> trouble with. Configuring alsa can be an involved process, and I
> didn't want to give an unnecessarily long explanation, when I could
> have spent the same amount of time addressing a particular issue in
> more detail.
> 
> Also, I am finding that I need to ask people if they have read the
> documentation, as unfortunate as that may be. The sad fact is that
> most people expect someone else to do everything for them, while they
> expect to learn nothing about it, and take advantage of the other
> person's work on their behalf at the same time. I don't mind teaching
> and explaining whatever I can. However I do mind if someone just
> expects me to do all the work for them because they're to
> lazy/impatient to read up on the procedure themselves. Note that
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Re: I'm sorry, but I'm desperet

[Janina Sajka]

Let me agree that, particularly with ALSA, reading the docs is
important.

But, so is the criticism of docs relevant. ALSA, in particular, should
stop doing the shtml include thing and symply point to the
basics--here's how to download, etc.

But, I suppose it's a Suse cultural thing. They definitely don't
document the way I document--or the way tldp.org does even.


Gregory Nowak writes:
> From: Gregory Nowak <greg@romuald.net.eu.org>
> 
> By asking if Chris had read the docs, I was simply attempting to
> determine which parts of the configuration he was specifically having
> trouble with. Configuring alsa can be an involved process, and I
> didn't want to give an unnecessarily long explanation, when I could
> have spent the same amount of time addressing a particular issue in
> more detail.
> 
> Also, I am finding that I need to ask people if they have read the
> documentation, as unfortunate as that may be. The sad fact is that
> most people expect someone else to do everything for them, while they
> expect to learn nothing about it, and take advantage of the other
> person's work on their behalf at the same time. I don't mind teaching
> and explaining whatever I can. However I do mind if someone just
> expects me to do all the work for them because they're to
> lazy/impatient to read up on the procedure themselves. Note that I am
> not implying here that Chris has either of these traits, I am just
> stating what I have met with, when asked to help someone with
> something in the past.
> 
> While I also understand that newbys can be frustrated if something
> doesn't work as expected (I was there myself once), lashing out at
> someone who bothers to take their free time to try and help you, may
> discourage that individual in the future from trying to help others,
> and that wouldn't be to any person's advantage.
> 
> Greg
> 
> 
> On Wed, Sep 17, 2003 at 10:50:26PM -0400, Ann Parsons wrote:
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > The question about whether someone had read the manual can, in some
> > cases, become a match that sets off an explosion.  If Chris has been
> > reading the manual, and something isn't clear that is preventing the
> > Alsa drivers from compiling properly, then he needs help to interpret
> > what he has read.  Sometimes reading the manual compounds the
> > problem.  
> > 
> > I think that Chris would be better served if his questions were
> > answered rather than inquiring as to his competency in reading man
> > pages.  
> > 
> > "Have you read the manual?", is a easy, quick and dirty solution to
> > someone's problem.  I know that it is important to understand
> > documentation, but sometimes one needs to talk to a human, not a
> > manual.  Sounds like Chris has been struggling with alsa for a long
> > time.  I can't help, don't know enough.  However, I do know that
> > configuring Alsa can be complicated and frustrating.  Let's not get a
> > bad rep like the Emacspeak list, guys.  Somebody, please give this guy
> > a hand.  
> > 
> > Ann P.
> >  
> > -- 
> > 			Ann K. Parsons  
> > email:  akp@eznet.net 			
> > WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> > "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> -- 
> Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Re: I'm sorry, but I'm desperet

[Janina Sajka]

Chris writes:
> ...  just try to have a little heart, and help me out...  I promise i'll
> learn, and be able to lean more away from yall, but for now, I need all the
> help I can get...  even if it's as simple as asking how to untar a file...

Actually, the usual price for help is that you help the next person.
Though, you have to give proper help, not half baked help.

Re: I'm sorry, but I'm desperet

[Joseph C. Lininger]

He called me and we've got the sound card working now.
--
Joseph C. Lininger
jbahm@pcdesk.net
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 8:50 PM
Subject: Re: I'm sorry, but I'm desperet


> Hi all,
>
> The question about whether someone had read the manual can, in some
> cases, become a match that sets off an explosion.  If Chris has been
> reading the manual, and something isn't clear that is preventing the
> Alsa drivers from compiling properly, then he needs help to interpret
> what he has read.  Sometimes reading the manual compounds the
> problem.
>
> I think that Chris would be better served if his questions were
> answered rather than inquiring as to his competency in reading man
> pages.
>
> "Have you read the manual?", is a easy, quick and dirty solution to
> someone's problem.  I know that it is important to understand
> documentation, but sometimes one needs to talk to a human, not a
> manual.  Sounds like Chris has been struggling with alsa for a long
> time.  I can't help, don't know enough.  However, I do know that
> configuring Alsa can be complicated and frustrating.  Let's not get a
> bad rep like the Emacspeak list, guys.  Somebody, please give this guy
> a hand.
>
> Ann P.
>
> -- 
> Ann K. Parsons
> email:  akp@eznet.net
> WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
JRRT
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: I'm sorry, but I'm desperet

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

<smile>  I'm sure that Chris will help others soon as he knows the
recipe.  Problem is he has to understand the recipe before he can bake
up any batches of help or they *will* be half baked.

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: I'm sorry, but I'm desperet

[Adam Myrow]

Chris, try the rexima command for adjusting volume levels.  If you just
type rexima, it brings up a screen where you can adjust several settings.
I'd play with the master volume and PCM volume.  Log in on another console
and play sounds while adjusting the settings.  Once you have it how you
like, if you are using Alsa, type "alsactl store."  This will save your
settings which can then be recalled with "alsactl restore" at any time.

As for not being able to access the Windows drive as a normal user, that
shouldn't be the case.  You should at least be able to read it, though it
may not let you write on it by default.  You can change this by editing
/etc/fstab.  You have to know what the user ID of your regular account is
for this to work.  If you took the defaults, I believe Slackware starts
out with 1000.  Type "id" when you are logged in as a regular user and it
will tell you what your UID and GID are.  Using those numbers, modify your
windows entry in /etc/fstab replacing the word "defaults" with something
like "uid=1000,gid=100" where you substitute your numbers.  It's very
likely that they will be the same numbers if you didn't change anything.
After making that modification, you can either reboot, or unmount the
drive with the "umount" command and mount it again with the "mount"
command.

Re: I'm sorry, but I'm desperet

[Janina Sajka]

Well said, Ann.

Ann Parsons writes:
> From: Ann Parsons <akp@eznet.net>
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> <smile>  I'm sure that Chris will help others soon as he knows the
> recipe.  Problem is he has to understand the recipe before he can bake
> up any batches of help or they *will* be half baked.
> 
> Ann P.
> 
> -- 
> 			Ann K. Parsons  
> email:  akp@eznet.net 			
> WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175