slackware 12.1 and ltlk synthesizer

slackware 12.1 and ltlk synthesizer

[Jude DaShiell]

The install does not leave this system talking on the first boot up.  I'm 
about to edit lilo.conf and add a serial statement and do some things 
inside that /boot directory.  I know in the earlier versions of slackware 
cp /mnt/kernels/speakup.s/bzImage /boot/vmlinuz was needed.  I already did 
that much and can't even tell what happens to the system once it's started 
so am wondering if any additional things need doing to make this version 
of slackware accessible.

Best distro

[DON.RAIKES]

Hi all,

I realize I am probably starting a feud, but what are the pros and cons to the various linux distros that support speakup?
I have used fedora 9, but I have seen a lot of discussion about slackware in general, and I am just wondering what the major differences are, and if slackware can support the software synthesizers as well as fedora?

Re: Best distro

[Foreign White Devil]

On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 03:34:17PM -0700, DON.RAIKES@ORACLE.COM wrote:
> I realize I am probably starting a feud, but what are the pros and cons

	Fedora and Ubuntu are probably the easiest for getting started
in Linux.  Debian still doesn't support SpeakUP, and for the foreseeable
next three years, probably still won't, and the others are more
difficult to use and learn.  Fedora is Redhat based as far as their
package manager (the ability to add/remove programs) and is probably the
more popular, while Ubuntu uses the Debian package manager, which in my
opinion is the superior product (unless Fedora has improved their older
practices, and I think they have).  There's probably just a tad more
support for Fedora, but don't quote me on it.  I'm still sticking with
Debian, myself, for the bug-tracking system, the package manager, and
their ideals to never release crap, even if it means releasing nothing
at all.  download and try the Live-CD's, which allow you to try each
distro before deciding on the one that suits.  They run in memory and
don't change your current operating system.  Hang out in the
irc.freenode.net chatrooms and see which impresses you the most.  You
can tell alot about a distro by the users running it and what help they
generally provide.  You'll probably be visiting them alot as you learn
your way around the system.  I would recommend trying the Fedora and
Ubuntu Live-CD's, see how well written  and helpful they are as far as
documentation and ease of setup goes, and pick one or the other of the
two.  It is going to be an adventure as you learn, and you'll likely go
back and make many changes to how you want things set up, especially
where disk partitioning is concerned, and kept data.  I like my home or
user directories separate, so daya I've collected is still there if I
need to reinstall from scratch or decide to ditch  everything for
another distro.  YMMV, but Fedora and Ubuntu will give you the fullest
of all possible setup options and software selections of the latest and
greatest stuff.  All the other distros are mainly offshoots of Redhat,
Debian, BSD, SuSE, and Slackware, each being noted mainly for their
method of package or software management.  I don't recommend the last
three, as their package management methods and software selection sucks
by comparison to the first two.  Redhat/Fedora will probably provide the
most support, and while Debian/Ubuntu fixes the bugs quicker, Debian
(not Ubuntu) takes forever to add support for newer software.  HTH,

			Michael

Re: Best distro

[Tyler Littlefield]

>Debian still doesn't support SpeakUP,
someone has some research to do:
http://people.debian.org/~shane
As for the rest, ubunu is built off debian, so if ubuntu supports speakup 
but debian doesn't, we've got a problem.
I like debian, because of it's package management, and it's ease of 
use--others like slack and gentu etc, but you've got to compile 
everything--there are some precompiled packages I think, but debian is a 
simple apt-get install in most cases.
Last time I had to install a package on fedora, I had to go find it's 
dependents dependents dependents dependents great ancestors off in some far 
away web page, which required some more dependence dependences be located, 
and so on.

Thanks,
~~TheCreator~~
Visit TDS for quality software and website production
http://tysdomain.com
visit the piratecafe for programming related resources:
http://piratecafe.net
msn: tyler@tysdomain.com
skype: st8amnd127
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Foreign White Devil" <gaijin@clearwire.net>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 7:05 PM
Subject: Re: Best distro


> On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 03:34:17PM -0700, DON.RAIKES@ORACLE.COM wrote:
>> I realize I am probably starting a feud, but what are the pros and cons
>
> Fedora and Ubuntu are probably the easiest for getting started
> in Linux.  Debian still doesn't support SpeakUP, and for the foreseeable
> next three years, probably still won't, and the others are more
> difficult to use and learn.  Fedora is Redhat based as far as their
> package manager (the ability to add/remove programs) and is probably the
> more popular, while Ubuntu uses the Debian package manager, which in my
> opinion is the superior product (unless Fedora has improved their older
> practices, and I think they have).  There's probably just a tad more
> support for Fedora, but don't quote me on it.  I'm still sticking with
> Debian, myself, for the bug-tracking system, the package manager, and
> their ideals to never release crap, even if it means releasing nothing
> at all.  download and try the Live-CD's, which allow you to try each
> distro before deciding on the one that suits.  They run in memory and
> don't change your current operating system.  Hang out in the
> irc.freenode.net chatrooms and see which impresses you the most.  You
> can tell alot about a distro by the users running it and what help they
> generally provide.  You'll probably be visiting them alot as you learn
> your way around the system.  I would recommend trying the Fedora and
> Ubuntu Live-CD's, see how well written  and helpful they are as far as
> documentation and ease of setup goes, and pick one or the other of the
> two.  It is going to be an adventure as you learn, and you'll likely go
> back and make many changes to how you want things set up, especially
> where disk partitioning is concerned, and kept data.  I like my home or
> user directories separate, so daya I've collected is still there if I
> need to reinstall from scratch or decide to ditch  everything for
> another distro.  YMMV, but Fedora and Ubuntu will give you the fullest
> of all possible setup options and software selections of the latest and
> greatest stuff.  All the other distros are mainly offshoots of Redhat,
> Debian, BSD, SuSE, and Slackware, each being noted mainly for their
> method of package or software management.  I don't recommend the last
> three, as their package management methods and software selection sucks
> by comparison to the first two.  Redhat/Fedora will probably provide the
> most support, and while Debian/Ubuntu fixes the bugs quicker, Debian
> (not Ubuntu) takes forever to add support for newer software.  HTH,
>
> Michael
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> __________ NOD32 3263 (20080711) Information __________
>
> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> http://www.eset.com
>
> 

Re: Best distro

[Gregory Nowak]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 07:19:11PM -0600, Tyler Littlefield wrote:
>> Debian still doesn't support SpeakUP,
> someone has some research to do:
> http://people.debian.org/~shane

I think he meant official support for speakup, in which case he's
right. Shane's iso isn't the stock debian iso which you can download
as an official debian iso, (I.E. an iso officially produced, and
supported by the debian project).

Greg


- -- 
web site: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org
gpg public key: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org/pubkey.asc
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Re: Best distro

[Tyler Littlefield]

Hello,
I understand that. I guess I was confused because it sounded like he was 
asuming ubuntu came with speakup--I thought it only had orica, but that's 
not even in stock is it?
Thanks,
~~TheCreator~~
Visit TDS for quality software and website production
http://tysdomain.com
visit the piratecafe for programming related resources:
http://piratecafe.net
msn: tyler@tysdomain.com
skype: st8amnd127
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gregory Nowak" <greg@romuald.net.eu.org>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 7:25 PM
Subject: Re: Best distro


> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 07:19:11PM -0600, Tyler Littlefield wrote:
>>> Debian still doesn't support SpeakUP,
>> someone has some research to do:
>> http://people.debian.org/~shane
>
> I think he meant official support for speakup, in which case he's
> right. Shane's iso isn't the stock debian iso which you can download
> as an official debian iso, (I.E. an iso officially produced, and
> supported by the debian project).
>
> Greg
>
>
> - -- 
> web site: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org
> gpg public key: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org/pubkey.asc
> skype: gregn1
> (authorization required, add me to your contacts list first)
>
> - --
> Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAkh6qxwACgkQ7s9z/XlyUyBvogCfRfUvtPzrvoh6ssuSIRVNkHlY
> eY4An0PUAePAXXzs4mrtgflWtvHWs6e8
> =HkDt
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> __________ NOD32 3263 (20080711) Information __________
>
> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> http://www.eset.com
>
> 

Re: Best distro

[Samuel Thibault]

Tyler Littlefield, le Sun 13 Jul 2008 20:28:16 -0600, a écrit :
> I understand that. I guess I was confused because it sounded like he was 
> asuming ubuntu came with speakup--I thought it only had orica, but that's 
> not even in stock is it?

Ubuntu took my Debian package for speakup.  I guess they will eventually
also inherit the debian-installer support for it.

Ubuntu does have orca (in particular on the liveCD).

Samuel

Re: Best distro

[Foreign White Devil]

On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 08:28:16PM -0600, Tyler Littlefield wrote:
> I understand that. I guess I was confused because it sounded like he was 
> asuming ubuntu came with speakup--I thought it only had orca

	If Ubuntu doesn't have SpeakUP, then I was mislead.  Someone in
the cvale mailing list said Ubuntu had speakup support back in version
7, and they're, like, at version 9 now?  My bad.  I don't follow Ubuntu,
but I also could swear I'd seen Ubuntu talked about in this list, and
that it had SpeakUP support...or maybe it was GRML?  Was considering
grabbing their kernel and stuffing it into Debian just because it was a
deb package.  Sorry if I'm wrong...

			Michael

Re: Best distro

[Gregory Nowak]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 12:57:10AM -0700, Foreign White Devil wrote:
> 	If Ubuntu doesn't have SpeakUP, then I was mislead.  Someone in
> the cvale mailing list said Ubuntu had speakup support back in version
> 7, and they're, like, at version 9 now?  My bad.  I don't follow Ubuntu,
> but I also could swear I'd seen Ubuntu talked about in this list, and
> that it had SpeakUP support...or maybe it was GRML?  Was considering
> grabbing their kernel and stuffing it into Debian just because it was a
> deb package.  Sorry if I'm wrong...

Ubuntu did indeed have speakup support in 7.x, I think it was 7.0, but
I could be wrong. They dropped it however, along with other distros
when linux 2.6.22 came out, and because they claimed nobody was
willing to help them with it, and they had some sort of problems with
it, though I don't remember what those were. All the grizzly details
are in the speakup list archives though, for anybody who wants to know
more.

Greg


- -- 
web site: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org
gpg public key: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org/pubkey.asc
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Re: Best distro

[Michael Whapples]

On Mon, 2008-07-14 at 11:15 -0700, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 12:57:10AM -0700, Foreign White Devil wrote:
> >     If Ubuntu doesn't have SpeakUP, then I was mislead.  Someone in
> > the cvale mailing list said Ubuntu had speakup support back in version
> > 7, and they're, like, at version 9 now?  My bad.  I don't follow Ubuntu,
> > but I also could swear I'd seen Ubuntu talked about in this list, and
> > that it had SpeakUP support...or maybe it was GRML?  Was considering
> > grabbing their kernel and stuffing it into Debian just because it was a
> > deb package.  Sorry if I'm wrong...
> 
> Ubuntu did indeed have speakup support in 7.x, I think it was 7.0, but
> I could be wrong. They dropped it however, along with other distros
> when linux 2.6.22 came out, and because they claimed nobody was
> willing to help them with it, and they had some sort of problems with
> it, though I don't remember what those were. All the grizzly details
> are in the speakup list archives though, for anybody who wants to know
> more.

That's another thing I like about slackware, its had speakup on the main
distro CDs since (I think) 7.x (the actual version it was introduced no
longer seems to be on the slackware website), for every release since
speakup was added to slackware, even through this change over to speakup
in git.
> 
> Greg
> 
> 
> 
> - -- 
> web site: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org
> gpg public key: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org/pubkey.asc
> skype: gregn1
> (authorization required, add me to your contacts list first)
> 
> - --
> Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
> 
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> 0o0An1OGV64TMSigkJhaC5oMYnTWow74
> =wot5
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 

Shane's kernels (was: Best distro)

[John Heim]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gregory Nowak" <greg@romuald.net.eu.org>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: Best distro


> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 07:19:11PM -0600, Tyler Littlefield wrote:
>>> Debian still doesn't support SpeakUP,
>> someone has some research to do:
>> http://people.debian.org/~shane
>
> I think he meant official support for speakup, in which case he's
> right. Shane's iso isn't the stock debian iso which you can download
> as an official debian iso, (I.E. an iso officially produced, and
> supported by the debian project).


Last time I checked, Shane's space on the debian site had 2.6.18-4  kernels. 
A 2.6.18 kernel is kind of old but the main problem is the "4" right at the 
end of the kernel version number. That means it has the root exploit that 
was fixed with the 2.6.18-6 kernels.

Somebody on this list took it upon himself to post speakup enabled versions 
of the -6 kernels. I don't remember who that was. But it's not an ideal 
solution because the person was not a debian maintainer. I wouldn't be 
comfortable pointing someone to a web site that wasn't on the debian server. 
I mean, I point people to my own web site for the debian speechd-up package 
but I know me.  I wouldn't blame anyone if other people didn't trust my 
speechd-up package.

So does anybody know if Shane is going to continue to maintain his debian 
web space? If not, it's rather a large loss.

Re: Shane's kernels

[Tony Baechler]

John Heim wrote:
> Somebody on this list took it upon himself to post speakup enabled 
> versions of the -6 kernels. I don't remember who that was. But it's 
> not an ideal solution because the person was not a debian maintainer. 
> I wouldn't be comfortable pointing someone to a web site that wasn't 
> on the debian server. I mean, I point people to my own web site for 
> the debian speechd-up package but I know me.  I wouldn't blame anyone 
> if other people didn't trust my speechd-up package.
>
Hi,

That person would be me.  No, I'm not a Debian maintainer but anyone can 
build kernel packages which follow the Debian guidelines.  Look at the 
"kernel-package" package.  I read the docs and followed the 
instructions, so I believe that my packages are as close as possible to 
those officially from Debian.  On the other hand, I've gotten behind a 
couple releases and I can't build for 64-bit systems.  Since it looks 
like the Speakup modules will make it to Lenny, I'll probably not 
maintain my packages.  Also, I build my 2.6.24 kernel packages on Etch 
even though the kernel source is from Sid, so all the more reason why 
there should be nothing wrong with using them.  For what it's worth, it 
worked fine on my Sid system and I'm still using it.  If you're 
referring to another kernel, that's not me and I've never posted 2.6.18 
kernels.

> So does anybody know if Shane is going to continue to maintain his 
> debian web space? If not, it's rather a large loss.



I don't know but I would guess not since it hasn't been updated since 
the release of Etch back in April 2007.  I hope he updates his files 
with the Lenny release.

Re: Shane's kernels

[Foreign White Devil]

On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 09:30:23AM -0700, Tony Baechler wrote:
> That person would be me.  No, I'm not a Debian maintainer but anyone can 
> build kernel packages which follow the Debian guidelines.

	Trew, but that presupposes knowing git, kernel compilation in
Debian, and that you have a working copy of linux installed.  Getting
from point A to point B without a working, accessible distro installed
and with only a Winderz background...Come on, guys.  We know better than
this, and while he's trying to use Firefox in the Etch GUI without Orca
support and fighting with the CLI to find something that will display a
web page...he's going to have a hard enough time discovering that some
500 binaries are installed, many of them barely configured, who's man
pages are written in an alien language written for super-geeks, all from
a barely documented SpeakUP interface.  I, myself, had to install
Slackware 11 which came with SpeakUP and enough docs on the CD to be
able to use it, get sendmail up and running with fetchmail to get on the
mailing lists, find the Shane CD to finally install Debian, which I was
somewhat familiar with already when I was sighted.  Even with a previous
linux background, it took three months just to get bakck into Debian.
Until Debian officially supports us, I can't recommend it to anyone
else.  I'll recommend those that do, and hope he eventually finds Debian
when he knows what's what and can see Debian's superiority.  If he were
sighted, I'd recommend Debian first with no reservations.

			Michael

Re: Shane's kernels

[Daniel Dalton]

On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 01:36:31PM -0700, Foreign White Devil wrote:

> Until Debian officially supports us, I can't recommend it to anyone

Well, forget etch, but look at lenny which should be released soon, what
is missing?
- orca
- brltty
- speakup modules
All in aptitude ready to go.

-- 
Daniel Dalton

http://members.iinet.net.au/~ddalton/
<d.dalton@iinet.net.au>

Re: Shane's kernels

[Tony Baechler]

Daniel Dalton wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 01:36:31PM -0700, Foreign White Devil wrote:
>
>   
>> Until Debian officially supports us, I can't recommend it to anyone
>>     
>
> Well, forget etch, but look at lenny which should be released soon, what
> is missing?
> - orca
> - brltty
> - speakup modules
> All in aptitude ready to go.
>
> Well, the obvious thing that's missing is an already compiled kernel image which includes Speakup.  Unless I'm mistaken, the Speakup modules package is just source.  You still have to compile the modules yourself.  If they were already compiled so that installing them would set up speech for you, that would be great.  Even after you compile the modules, you still have to adjust your boot configuration to start Speakup with what synth you want.  If debconf could prompt for this and set it up for you, as is done when new kernel images are installed, that would be more automatic, less prone to errors and better overall.  One thing Daniel didn't mention is that the Lenny installer should have accessible images with Braille and Speakup support, which Etch will never officially have.


> I think that Debian is officially supporting the blind, just not as fast as one would like or in the manner that Michael seems to think is necessary.  I would like to have a talking system from installation to first boot to shutdown but that's not completely possible anyway because of the BIOS limitations and because software speech can't start until later in the boot process.

Re: Shane's kernels

[Samuel Thibault]

It'd be good if people actually checked what is true before speaking :)

Tony Baechler, le Tue 15 Jul 2008 03:36:50 -0700, a écrit :
> Well, the obvious thing that's missing is an already compiled kernel image 
> which includes Speakup.  Unless I'm mistaken, the Speakup modules package 
> is just source.

Please see http://packages.qa.debian.org/linux-modules-extra-2.6

> One thing Daniel didn't mention is that the Lenny installer should
> have accessible images with Braille and Speakup support, which Etch
> will never officially have.

?!?!

Etch _does_ have braille already.

As for Lenny, I've put a preview mini-ISO of what the installer will be
on

http://brl.thefreecat.org/mini.iso

Let the CD boot; when it has spun down, press the tab key and then
speakup.synth=yourdriver
enter, and voilà.  The Debian FTP archive may not be up to date so
that the speakup modules may not be installed on the target before the
reboot, but everything is there for this to happen when that new version
of the installer is officially released.

> I think that Debian is officially supporting the blind, just not as fast 
> as one would like or in the manner that Michael seems to think is 
> necessary.

Just contribute.

I'm desperate to hear people talking on the debian-accessibility lists.
I sometimes raise issues there, and very few people answer.  I on the
other hand often hear about debian accessibility the kind of complaints
you've just made.  That doesn't help to find the will to work on it, you
know...

> I would like to have a talking system from installation to 
> first boot to shutdown but that's not completely possible anyway because 
> of the BIOS limitations and because software speech can't start until 
> later in the boot process.

Speech is inherently more difficult than writing on video memory indeed,
but not impossible.
About BIOS limitations, google for EFI, tiano core, etc.  There should
be a way to have accessibility modules early in the EFI boot process.

Samuel

Re: Shane's kernels

[Daniel Dalton]

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 11:50:57AM +0100, Samuel Thibault wrote:

> I'm desperate to hear people talking on the debian-accessibility lists.

I mentioned speechd-up inclution in debian there... and got no
replies... So I guess that means my idea was rejected... But that is such
a small package isn't it? So I dunno. I don't really see the point if no
one replies.

-- 
Daniel Dalton

http://members.iinet.net.au/~ddalton/
<d.dalton@iinet.net.au>

Re: Shane's kernels

[Samuel Thibault]

Daniel Dalton, le Wed 16 Jul 2008 08:15:11 +1000, a écrit :
> On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 11:50:57AM +0100, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> 
> > I'm desperate to hear people talking on the debian-accessibility lists.
> 
> I mentioned speechd-up inclution in debian there... and got no
> replies...

?! I did reply.

> So I guess that means my idea was rejected...

Nope.  As I said, it's mostly a lack of time.  Mario asked several time
for help maintaining the plethora of packages that he maintains, and got
no answer, _that_ is the problem.

> But that is such a small package isn't it?

Small doesn't mean simple.  Here, the maintainer will have to set the
build deps and runtime deps, make sure it is by default correctly
configured to discuss with speakup and speechd-dispatcher, etc.

> I don't really see the point if no one replies.

Again, I have replied: lack of people getting involved in actually doing
things.

Samuel

Re: Shane's kernels

[Daniel Dalton]

Hello,

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 11:49:09PM +0100, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> Daniel Dalton, le Wed 16 Jul 2008 08:15:11 +1000, a écrit :
> > On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 11:50:57AM +0100, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> > 
> > > I'm desperate to hear people talking on the debian-accessibility lists.
> > 
> > I mentioned speechd-up inclution in debian there... and got no
> > replies...
> 
> ?! I did reply.

It didn't come through, sorry, would you mind re-sending your message?

> 
> > So I guess that means my idea was rejected...
> 
> Nope.  As I said, it's mostly a lack of time.  Mario asked several time
> for help maintaining the plethora of packages that he maintains, and got
> no answer, _that_ is the problem.

I would be happy to help, where is a howto on creating deb packages the
debian way that will be accepted?

> 
> > But that is such a small package isn't it?
> 
> Small doesn't mean simple.  Here, the maintainer will have to set the
> build deps and runtime deps, make sure it is by default correctly
> configured to discuss with speakup and speechd-dispatcher, etc.

Ah, ok.

> 
> > I don't really see the point if no one replies.
> 
> Again, I have replied: lack of people getting involved in actually doing

I didn't get it,  please re-send if you can.

> things.

I am happy to help out, not much programming experience, but happy to
learn, and hoping to start a bit of programming...
But yeah, im happy to help u guys out.

-- 
Daniel Dalton

http://members.iinet.net.au/~ddalton/
<d.dalton@iinet.net.au>

Re: Shane's kernels

[Samuel Thibault]

Daniel Dalton, le Wed 16 Jul 2008 18:02:17 +1000, a écrit :
> On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 11:49:09PM +0100, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> > Daniel Dalton, le Wed 16 Jul 2008 08:15:11 +1000, a écrit :
> > > I mentioned speechd-up inclution in debian there... and got no
> > > replies...
> > 
> > ?! I did reply.
> 
> It didn't come through, sorry, would you mind re-sending your message?

http://lists.debian.org/debian-accessibility/2008/07/msg00001.html

> > > So I guess that means my idea was rejected...
> > 
> > Nope.  As I said, it's mostly a lack of time.  Mario asked several time
> > for help maintaining the plethora of packages that he maintains, and got
> > no answer, _that_ is the problem.
> 
> I would be happy to help, where is a howto on creating deb packages the
> debian way that will be accepted?

There's plenty of doc on http://www.debian.org/devel/

> > lack of people getting involved in actually doing
> > things.
> 
> I am happy to help out, not much programming experience, but happy to
> learn, and hoping to start a bit of programming...

Well, for the packaging itself one usually doesn't need to program, just
have to know make and learn the debian policies etc.  For long-term
maintaining, programming skills help to fix bugs...

Samuel

Re: Shane's kernels

[Foreign White Devil]

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 08:15:11AM +1000, Daniel Dalton wrote:
> I mentioned speechd-up inclution in debian there... and got no
> replies... So I guess that means my idea was rejected...

	I've posted a couple things there, and got rejection replies.
all I have is an LTLK synthesizer and a barely functional copy of
Windows and NVDA on a laptop.  If it weren't for SpeakUP, I prolly
wouldn't be computing at all.  Can't afford to keep chasing viruses and
buying upgrades.  Hell, can barely afford to eat.  Don't get me wrong.
I love Debian.  It's the only thing keeping me in contact with the rest
of the world.  If I had the knowledge, I'd do what they're doing for
Fedora, and set up sources.list  links for the latest SpeakUP compiles and 
put real dpkg support out there.  I'd originally thought that was what
debian-accessibility was for, much like the guys at debian-unofficial,
where you couldapt-get install what isn't being officially supported.

			Michael

Re: Shane's kernels

[Samuel Thibault]

Foreign White Devil, le Wed 16 Jul 2008 13:14:41 -0700, a écrit :
> On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 08:15:11AM +1000, Daniel Dalton wrote:
> > I mentioned speechd-up inclution in debian there... and got no
> > replies... So I guess that means my idea was rejected...
> 
> 	I've posted a couple things there, and got rejection replies.

Rejection?!

Do you refer to the thread "Make syslinux beep?"

> If I had the knowledge, I'd do what they're doing for
> Fedora, and set up sources.list  links for the latest SpeakUP compiles and 
> put real dpkg support out there.

No need to edit sources.list with Lenny: it's already there.

> I'd originally thought that was what debian-accessibility was for,

That _IS_ what debian-accessibility is for.  It's just a matter of
missing people actually doing things.  I personnally am currently
overloaded with things to do (I don't remember when I last went to bed
before 2am), I can not do all debian-accessibility stuff, so people have
to get involved.

Really, silence on debian-accessibility _DOESN'T_ mean rejection.  It
just means people are busy and we need more workforce.

Samuel

Re: Shane's kernels

[Kristoffer Gustafsson]

Hello!
It isn't that hard to install the speechd-up sources.
I did it today, took speakup with apt-get install speakup, loaded the 
modules, then installed speech dispatcher, and compiled speechd-up.
I can help with doing it available in lenny if you just tell me how to do 
it.
I can fix other packages as well, don't have much to do in the summer, just 
say what you want.
/Kristoffer
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Samuel Thibault" <samuel.thibault@ens-lyon.org>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 12:17 AM
Subject: Re: Shane's kernels


Foreign White Devil, le Wed 16 Jul 2008 13:14:41 -0700, a écrit :
> On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 08:15:11AM +1000, Daniel Dalton wrote:
> > I mentioned speechd-up inclution in debian there... and got no
> > replies... So I guess that means my idea was rejected...
>
> I've posted a couple things there, and got rejection replies.

Rejection?!

Do you refer to the thread "Make syslinux beep?"

> If I had the knowledge, I'd do what they're doing for
> Fedora, and set up sources.list  links for the latest SpeakUP compiles and
> put real dpkg support out there.

No need to edit sources.list with Lenny: it's already there.

> I'd originally thought that was what debian-accessibility was for,

That _IS_ what debian-accessibility is for.  It's just a matter of
missing people actually doing things.  I personnally am currently
overloaded with things to do (I don't remember when I last went to bed
before 2am), I can not do all debian-accessibility stuff, so people have
to get involved.

Really, silence on debian-accessibility _DOESN'T_ mean rejection.  It
just means people are busy and we need more workforce.

Samuel
_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 

Re: Shane's kernels

[Samuel Thibault]

Kristoffer Gustafsson, le Thu 17 Jul 2008 01:01:44 +0200, a écrit :
> I can fix other packages as well, don't have much to do in the summer, just 
> say what you want.

Well, for instance the debian installation manual probably deserves an
accessibility section...

And if you feel like diving into debian you could help John Heim with
his speechd-up package, to make it up to date with the debian policy, so
that we may then add it to Debian.

Samuel

Re: Shane's kernels

[John G. Heim]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Samuel Thibault" <samuel.thibault@ens-lyon.org>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 6:13 PM
Subject: Re: Shane's kernels


Kristoffer Gustafsson, le Thu 17 Jul 2008 01:01:44 +0200, a écrit :
> I can fix other packages as well, don't have much to do in the summer, 
> just
> say what you want.

Well, for instance the debian installation manual probably deserves an
accessibility section...

And if you feel like diving into debian you could help John Heim with
his speechd-up package, to make it up to date with the debian policy, so
that we may then add it to Debian.


Yeah, I haven't been able to work on it this week. I put that speechd-up 
package together because I needed it for an automatic linux installation 
system we have at my work. I thought that if others can use it, that would 
be fine. But it's time I took it to the next level. I just haven't been able 
to work on it for one reason or another since you told me it was messed up. 
All I've had time to do is compile the speechd-up binaries. I stillhaave to 
fix/upgrade the init.d scripts and re-do the deb packaging

I'm a systems admin for the University of Wisconsin Department of 
Mathematics and I know a little about everything but not a lot about 
anything. I'm no shell scripting  guru. I know enough to be dangerous. I 
know next to nothing about packaging debs. I learned only what I needed to 
know so that I could build a package that would install speechd-up during an 
automatic linux install.The one advantage I have is that I have ready access 
to every kind of hardware you can name. But I wouldn't mind if someone would 
point out places where I've obviously gone off course.

Re: Shane's kernels

[Daniel Dalton]

On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 01:01:44AM +0200, Kristoffer Gustafsson wrote:
> Hello!
> It isn't that hard to install the speechd-up sources.
> I did it today, took speakup with apt-get install speakup, loaded the  

Yeah, its easy, but would be better in apt.

-- 
Daniel Dalton

http://members.iinet.net.au/~ddalton/
<d.dalton@iinet.net.au>

Re: Shane's kernels

[Tony Baechler]

Samuel Thibault wrote:
> It'd be good if people actually checked what is true before speaking :)
>
> Tony Baechler, le Tue 15 Jul 2008 03:36:50 -0700, a écrit :
>   
>> Well, the obvious thing that's missing is an already compiled kernel image 
>> which includes Speakup.  Unless I'm mistaken, the Speakup modules package 
>> is just source.
>>     
>
> Please see http://packages.qa.debian.org/linux-modules-extra-2.6
>
>   
Hi,

I'm sorry, I didn't know about that and I didn't see it announced on 
debian-accessibility.  Still, I think that's modules, not an actual 
kernel image with the Speakup core built-in.  I will look before saying 
more though.
>> One thing Daniel didn't mention is that the Lenny installer should
>> have accessible images with Braille and Speakup support, which Etch
>> will never officially have.
>>     
>
> ?!?!
>
> Etch _does_ have braille already.
>
>   
Again, I'm sorry.  I don't use Braille and I thought Braille was somehow 
dropped for Etch.  Maybe I was confused with Sarge which had Speakup 
support.  I read the Etch release notes and don't remember seeing a 
section on Braille in the installer, but again I don't use Braille.

> As for Lenny, I've put a preview mini-ISO of what the installer will be
> on
>
> http://brl.thefreecat.org/mini.iso
>
>   
Thank you!  This would be very good to have.  I intend to download it 
and use it the next time I do an install.

>> I think that Debian is officially supporting the blind, just not as fast 
>> as one would like or in the manner that Michael seems to think is 
>> necessary.
>>     
>
> Just contribute.
>
>   
I'm not a programmer and I still don't use Debian as my main OS.  I 
don't really have time to write docs and wouldn't understand the code 
anyway.  With that said, I have an idea which I'm thinking about but it 
would have more to do with Speakup itself than Debian.

> I'm desperate to hear people talking on the debian-accessibility lists.
> I sometimes raise issues there, and very few people answer.  I on the
> other hand often hear about debian accessibility the kind of complaints
> you've just made.  That doesn't help to find the will to work on it, you
> know...
>
>   
I was not complaining about Debian accessibility.  Michael was 
complaining and I was responding to him and Daniel.  I'm personally very 
happy with Debian, more than any other Linux distro.  I would like to 
see FreeBSD support accessibility, but they have nothing while Debian 
can be used successfully by the blind from installation to day to day 
tasks including using X and Orca.  I understand that Gentoo and 
Slackware might have "better" accessibility support, better being of 
course highly subjective, but I'm still staying with Debian because it 
is a "better" overall distro.  The only thing I don't like is their 
guidelines for determining free software, but that's a discussion for a 
different time.  I'm sorry if I came across like I was complaining.  I 
am very disappointed that the install team dropped the ball with Etch as 
far as Speakup, but I think Lenny will be better and will be worth the 
wait.  I have a lot of respect for you and the work you've done.

Re: Shane's kernels

[Samuel Thibault]

Tony Baechler, le Thu 17 Jul 2008 02:41:58 -0700, a écrit :
> Samuel Thibault wrote:
> >Tony Baechler, le Tue 15 Jul 2008 03:36:50 -0700, a écrit :
> >  
> >>Well, the obvious thing that's missing is an already compiled kernel 
> >>image which includes Speakup.  Unless I'm mistaken, the Speakup modules 
> >>package is just source.
> >
> >Please see http://packages.qa.debian.org/linux-modules-extra-2.6
> >  
> I'm sorry, I didn't know about that and I didn't see it announced on 
> debian-accessibility.

Right, I should probably have announced it, I just didn't take the time
to do it.

> Still, I think that's modules, not an actual kernel image with the
> Speakup core built-in.

Indeed.  The reason is that debian kernel packagers don't want to apply
patches to the kernel except bug fixes.  Having it as modules is fine
for most usage, though, and people who need non-module are probably able
to patch/recompile their own kernel.  One could argue that the speakup
package could provide an easy way to do it (just like the old
speakup-patch package used to).  Just another thing to do on top of the
long list...

> >Etch _does_ have braille already.
> >  
> Again, I'm sorry.  I don't use Braille and I thought Braille was somehow 
> dropped for Etch.

Why so?

> Maybe I was confused with Sarge which had Speakup support.

Well, there were "accessibility" disks indeed, but that wasn't
convenient.

> I read the Etch release notes and don't remember seeing a 
> section on Braille in the installer,

So the release team forgot to add it.  That's the kind of things
that people can (without technical knowledge) and should help in
debian-accessibility.

> >As for Lenny, I've put a preview mini-ISO of what the installer will be
> >on
> >
> >http://brl.thefreecat.org/mini.iso
> >
> >  
> Thank you!  This would be very good to have.  I intend to download it 
> and use it the next time I do an install.

Well, just a warning: this image may not work any more at that time if
the archive change :) (it seems to do work currently).

> >Just contribute.
> I'm not a programmer

See the documentation issue above.

> I don't really have time to write docs

But you have time to write complains and spread FUDs :)

> and wouldn't understand the code anyway.

Documentation is _not_ about code.  It's about user knowledge.

> I am very disappointed that the install team dropped the ball with
> Etch as far as Speakup,

Well, as usual, it's not a problem of policy, it's a problem of
workforce.  The accessibility disks got dropped because they weren't
maintained, and the debian installer doesn't fit on them any more
anyway.  Debian-installer people are not against accessibility (yes,
that's what people would understand from your "dropped the ball"
expression), they just don't know how to test it etc. so can not
maintain it themselves, they need help.

Samuel

Re: Shane's kernels

[Daniel Dalton]

On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 02:41:58AM -0700, Tony Baechler wrote:

> I'm sorry, I didn't know about that and I didn't see it announced on  
> debian-accessibility.  Still, I think that's modules, not an actual  
> kernel image with the Speakup core built-in.  I will look before saying  

Its modules, but you don't need to build a kernel yourself, use m-a, so
yeah, to get messages from boot up to power off you will probably need
to install a custom kernel.
But a great start.

>>> One thing Daniel didn't mention is that the Lenny installer should
>>> have accessible images with Braille and Speakup support, which Etch
>>> will never officially have.
>>>     
>>
>> ?!?!
>>
>> Etch _does_ have braille already.
>>
>>   
> Again, I'm sorry.  I don't use Braille and I thought Braille was somehow  
> dropped for Etch.  Maybe I was confused with Sarge which had Speakup  
> support.  I read the Etch release notes and don't remember seeing a  

All installers I have used: etch and lenny both had braille.
Sorry, for not making that clear.

>> As for Lenny, I've put a preview mini-ISO of what the installer will be
>> on
>>
>> http://brl.thefreecat.org/mini.iso
>>
>>   
> Thank you!  This would be very good to have.  I intend to download it  
> and use it the next time I do an install.

I should check it out too.

> anyway.  With that said, I have an idea which I'm thinking about but it  
> would have more to do with Speakup itself than Debian.

Erm, this is the speakup list, so what is it?

> complaining and I was responding to him and Daniel.  I'm personally very  
> happy with Debian, more than any other Linux distro.  I would like to  

I personally believe debian is the most accessible distro and it is my
favourite, so I'm not complaining, but happy to improve it even more!

Cheers,

-- 
Daniel Dalton

http://members.iinet.net.au/~ddalton/
<d.dalton@iinet.net.au>

Re: Shane's kernels

[Foreign White Devil]

On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 02:41:58AM -0700, Tony Baechler wrote:
> >>I think that Debian is officially supporting the blind, just not as fast 
> >>as one would like or in the manner that Michael seems to think is 
> >>necessary.

	Official Debian support for SpeakUP is all I really care about on 
this mailing list, or what I'd respond to.  The State hasn't helped me
at all with the computer or with learning braille, because I can't get
to their classes on my own.  Bus schedules and unpredictable Dial-A-Ride
service leaves me with little choice but to immediately turn around and
return home once I get to the classes.  They're held at 8:30am, and
there's no possible way I can get to them before 10:45am, so I cannot
qualify for JAWS or any of the other goodies you folks talk about.  All
I have is a home built PC with Linux, and a hardware synth my aunt
bought for me.  It's taken me a year to save up for a refurbished linux
compliant printer.  Dunno how long until I can afford the printer cable
and toner cartridge so I can discuss my situation in detail with the
NFB, and hopefully get out of what I consider to be solitary
confinement, where society has seemed to have abandoned me.
	Anyway, before I lost my sight, I was beginning to explore
Debian, and I'm at least somewhat familiar with it.  When Debian is
released with Orca, I'll explore that.  I've dist-upgraded to Lenny 4
times now, and have had to reinstall Shane's Etch CD just as many times.
SpeakUP always works for me, unless I try compiling my own kernels, end
up wrecking something, and have to go the full re-install route yet
again.
	Would I like official support for SpeakUP in Debian?  You betcha
Maybe then I'll be able to start learning things rather than fighting to
keep things running, or keep from being silently locked out of my
computer with no clue how to fix it.  Since everything seems to be on
wiki pages, and Orca's virtually unusable to me without those wiki
pages, I'm in a catch-22 situation.  The only sighted help I have is one
person who is computer illiterate, and has a panic attack when she looks
at the monitor.  Believe me, I'm trying here, and have already been
hospitalized from the stress, vomitting up blood from the ulcers.  The
only comfort I take from all this griping is that this message will
likely get rejected by the SpeakUP mailing list, and you won't have to
witness it. <laughs>  Sorry for the off-topic rant.  I know you folks
have enough of your own problems.  I'm only asking for an end to all the
catch-22 roadblocks everyone has set up for those of us who've been
abandoned by the Dept of Rehab.  My only other option seems to be
selling pencils on the nearby offramp until someone in authority notices
me, and California drivers really suck about not hitting or shooting 
pedestrians, even when they can read English signs around a person's 
neck. <snickers>

			Michael

Re: Shane's kernels

[Daniel Dalton]

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 03:36:50AM -0700, Tony Baechler wrote:

>> Well, forget etch, but look at lenny which should be released soon, what

I should probably have said: etch has brltty in the installer and in
aptitude, but since I don't use it, I don't know if it contains speakup
or orca.
I don't think it does, but someone can correct me, I think it just has brltty.
Lenny has speakup, orca, brltty and a braille installer.

>> is missing?
>> - orca
>> - brltty
>> - speakup modules
>> All in aptitude ready to go.
>>
> Well, the obvious thing that's missing is an already compiled kernel
> image 
> which includes Speakup.  Unless I'm mistaken, the Speakup modules
> package is
> just source.  You still have to compile the modules yourself.  If they
> were already compiled so that installing them would set up speech for
> you, that 
> would be great.

Use module-assistent, have you installed speakup-doc and read the
installation notes for debian? Works fine for me, and very easy to do.
No need to build a kernel from source, but it won't build the synth into
the kernel just as modules.

> Even after you compile the modules, you still have to adjust your boot 
> configuration to start Speakup with what synth you want.  

True I guess, but you can modprobe it then edit /etc/modules.

I only use software speech, so not sure how you would tell it what port
your synth is on, if you are using modprobe and your synth driver is
built as a module...


-- 
Daniel Dalton

http://members.iinet.net.au/~ddalton/
<d.dalton@iinet.net.au>

Re: Shane's kernels

[Samuel Thibault]

Daniel Dalton, le Wed 16 Jul 2008 18:10:26 +1000, a écrit :
> On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 03:36:50AM -0700, Tony Baechler wrote:
> >> Well, forget etch, but look at lenny which should be released soon, what
> 
> I should probably have said: etch has brltty in the installer and in
> aptitude, but since I don't use it, I don't know if it contains speakup
> or orca.
> I don't think it does, but someone can correct me, I think it just has brltty.

It's not in etch indeed.

Samuel

Re: Shane's kernels

[Foreign White Devil]

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 08:16:24PM +1000, Daniel Dalton wrote:
> Well, forget etch, but look at lenny which should be released soon,

	Seen it, crashed it, tried it again, went back to Etch until
it's released to the public.  Got tired of it never booting the same way
twice, and alsa and speech dispatcher crashing.  Was getting so every
upgrade messed audio up, and the only thing that worked was the Shane
kernel from Etch.  I'll stick with Etch for now, try Lenny when it's
stable, and port to Ubuntu if Lenny continues giving me grief.  I really
hate that random bootup crap business.  I can run Windows 95 for that.
If I didn't feel the desperate need for bug and security fixes, I'd go
the "Linux From Scratch" route and never upgrade again. <grins>

			Michael

Re: Best distro

[Foreign White Devil]

On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 07:19:11PM -0600, Tyler Littlefield wrote:
> someone has some research to do:
> http://people.debian.org/~shane

	Yeah, I have Shane's netinst CD.  It's not the defacto distro,
and half the time you try running tasksel in the installation, it tries
to remove the kernel, leaving you with a kernelless system.  I also run
'apt-cache search speakup' in a cron job each night, get mailed the
results, and so far I see nothing but the Shane kernel mentioned so far.
According to the guys at freenode.net, Lenny will only have the 2.6.24
kernel, which will likely mean another search for  a modified,
non-standard install disk.  I won't even go into how old their gnome-orca
package is.  Don't get me wrong.  I'm running Debian and love it for
other reasons.  It still does little to support my needs as yet, so I
can't truthfully recommend it to blind novices until that support
exists in the stock distro.  Linux is difficult enough without  adding
blindness and a lack of real support on top of that.    If Lenny is
released with SspeakUP, then I'll recommend it ahead of every other
distro out there.

			Michael

Re: Best distro

[Tyler Littlefield]

uh, we can't wait for it to be "made accessible."
It works ok currently, and I'm running  a speakup kernel--though I haven't 
figured out why as of yet, I just use ssh until I get softsynth set up.
Thanks,
~~TheCreator~~
Visit TDS for quality software and website production
http://tysdomain.com
visit the piratecafe for programming related resources:
http://piratecafe.net
msn: tyler@tysdomain.com
skype: st8amnd127
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Foreign White Devil" <gaijin@clearwire.net>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 1:42 AM
Subject: Re: Best distro


> On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 07:19:11PM -0600, Tyler Littlefield wrote:
>> someone has some research to do:
>> http://people.debian.org/~shane
>
> Yeah, I have Shane's netinst CD.  It's not the defacto distro,
> and half the time you try running tasksel in the installation, it tries
> to remove the kernel, leaving you with a kernelless system.  I also run
> 'apt-cache search speakup' in a cron job each night, get mailed the
> results, and so far I see nothing but the Shane kernel mentioned so far.
> According to the guys at freenode.net, Lenny will only have the 2.6.24
> kernel, which will likely mean another search for  a modified,
> non-standard install disk.  I won't even go into how old their gnome-orca
> package is.  Don't get me wrong.  I'm running Debian and love it for
> other reasons.  It still does little to support my needs as yet, so I
> can't truthfully recommend it to blind novices until that support
> exists in the stock distro.  Linux is difficult enough without  adding
> blindness and a lack of real support on top of that.    If Lenny is
> released with SspeakUP, then I'll recommend it ahead of every other
> distro out there.
>
> Michael
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> __________ NOD32 3263 (20080711) Information __________
>
> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> http://www.eset.com
>
> 

Re: Best distro

[Tony Baechler]

Tyler Littlefield wrote:
>> Debian still doesn't support SpeakUP,
> someone has some research to do:
> http://people.debian.org/~shane



Hi,

Sorry if this has been previously mentioned, but I very strongly 
recommend against using that particular kernel image.  First, it is not 
official.  Quoting the url and implying that it is officially supported 
by Debian is wrong.  Samuel and others are working on official Debian 
packages but the Shane install CD and kernel image aren't.  Second, the 
installer is for Etch only so there is no way to directly install Lenny 
or use the latest Debian Installer boot images from the Shane url.  
Finally, the kernel image is very, very old and has numerous known 
security problems which will never be fixed.  Someone previously posted 
that the security issues are Debian specific.  That is also incorrect.  
All the kernel security problems which Debian has fixed in the latest 
images have CVE numbers and are clearly documented in their security 
advisories.

Re: Best distro

[Samuel Thibault]

Foreign White Devil, le Sun 13 Jul 2008 18:05:40 -0700, a écrit :
> Debian still doesn't support SpeakUP, and for the foreseeable
> next three years, probably still won't,

?!?!

Please have a look at http://packages.qa.debian.org/speakup
It is already in testing, and is being integrated in the debian
Installer.

> Debian (not Ubuntu) takes forever to add support for newer software.

Please define "forever".

It's all about the difference between "bleeding edge" and "stable". I'm
quite happy that Debian people are quite careful about new software
which might not be so stable.  That doesn't mean that they don't
integrate it once it really is stable.  Lenny (scheduled for september)
_will_ have iceweasel 3 for instance.

Samuel

Re: Best distro

[Foreign White Devil]

On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 03:26:21AM +0100, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> Please have a look at http://packages.qa.debian.org/speakup
> It is already in testing, and is being integrated in the debian
> Installer.

	Well, kewl.  I can correct the guys at freenode then.  Thanks.
I was talking about SpeakUP support currently available, which is why I
steered away from recommending Debian, as well as toward the various
Live-CD's, which are easily replaceable or collectable.  Debian Lenny
isn't scheduled for release until September, so I've heard.  As he said
he was a novice, I tried not to steer him into an unfathomable maze of
wiki pages and undocumented, bleeding edge tidbits that are worse than
useless without even a working copy of Linux to play with.

			Michael

Re: Best distro

[Tony Baechler]

Foreign White Devil wrote:
> download and try the Live-CD's, which allow you to try each
> distro before deciding on the one that suits.  They run in memory and
> don't change your current operating system.  Hang out in the
> irc.freenode.net chatrooms and see which impresses you the most.  You
> can tell alot about a distro by the users running it and what help they
> generally provide.  You'll probably be visiting them alot as you learn
> your way around the system.


Hi,

That is all very good advice, but for those of you who don't want to 
learn irc and get a chat client and or those who don't really know what 
resources are out there, please contact me off list.  I am offering a 
fee-based support service intended for beginning to intermediate 
computer users, supporting DOS, Windows and Linux.  While I'm here, I 
will say that there are many freely available resources out there for 
those who don't mind looking, including numerous mailing lists.  For 
just the Debian lists, check out: [http://lists.debian.org/ Debian 
lists]  Also, Gentoo and probably others, including Debian, do have 
accessibility lists.  The Gentoo list had no traffic when I was on it 
but that was several years ago.  The Debian list is fairly quiet.  
There's also the blinux list, but I don't have a home page for it.  
Finally, there are always Google searches and the various HOWTO sites 
such as [http://tldp.org/ The Linux documentation Project].  That 
doesn't even scratch the surface.  Each Distro generally has their own 
documentation such as the Debian Documentation Project.

Re: Best distro

[Michael Whapples]

On Sun, 2008-07-13 at 18:05 -0700, Foreign White Devil wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 03:34:17PM -0700, DON.RAIKES@ORACLE.COM wrote:
> [...]  YMMV, but Fedora and Ubuntu will give you the fullest
> of all possible setup options and software selections of the latest and
> greatest stuff.  All the other distros are mainly offshoots of Redhat,
> Debian, BSD, SuSE, and Slackware, each being noted mainly for their
> method of package or software management.  I don't recommend the last
> three, as their package management methods and software selection sucks
> by comparison to the first two.
????????...
I really have to dispute that. 

I would argue in a way slackware is one of the easier distributions,
they try and keep things simple (may be not in the traditional way). for
the init scripts they have it set so that to enable or disable it you
just set the execution permissions accordingly rather than having to use
applications to do it for you (I think it was rc-update in gentoo) and
then you sometimes found the script didn't start it because it also had
a line inside it reading "exit" before the code of the script which you
needed to comment out (another way of enabling/disabling an init
script). Also things like the package management, yes there isn't the
dependency checking with the one provided in slackware itself, but by
keeping it simple its alot easier to compile things from source (which
is the only real way of getting the latest and greatest with the
greatest choice of set up options (ie. you can compile in which of the
optional components you want/need)). If you do want a more advanced
package manager then there is a slackware package manager based on
debian's apt called slapt (then you just need to find the packages). By
keeping so much manual and simple, you know what is going on because you
are making it do it. Yes you need to know what you are doing, and that
is where the slackware book comes in (www.slackbook.org). Linux from
scratch goes further than slackware, and is probably the best way to
really know about the whole system, although I would say if you want to
get a system running fairly quickly then LFS may take too much time, and
that's why I like slackware, it gives the core stuff and let's you get
the optional stuff you actually want.

By the way BSD is not Linux, so you won't get speakup working on that.
BSD is another flavour of unix,and has various distributions, openbsd,
freebsd, netbsd and I am not sure if there are others, all with there
own strong points.

>   Redhat/Fedora will probably provide the
> most support, and while Debian/Ubuntu fixes the bugs quicker, Debian
> (not Ubuntu) takes forever to add support for newer software.

Are you sure for ever? that's one thing about debian, it gives you the
various branches, unstable/testing/stable, so you can decide what
balance of stability you want at the cost of newest features. So yes
stable may take time to get updated versions of software, but when it
does you know that it should be very stable.

Michael Whapples

>   HTH,
> 
>           Michael
> 
> 
>