braille input

braille input

[cpt.kirk]

One thing that strikes me about this mode of input. It seems like it would
be a compact method of inputing items and should have a much higher input
rate then the scribbles that many PDAs use. I am inclined to think that
the user should have a choice as to inputing either reverse like a typical
slate and stylus or forward like it is read. I would hate to force
something on someone that is used to reversing their braille writting. But
hey, I am somewhat ignorant. I can read and write about grade 1.3 braille.
I know some of the grade 2 stuff, but not all of it. And it has been
awhile.

The other Kirk had brought up using a template with translation software
to make use of the touch screen that is already on any PDa arround. While
the idea is certainly sound and workable, I don't have a PDA. In fact all
my blind friends are incapable of using any PDA today because they are all
totals.

If there is interest here, I will start working on a braille input method.
In fact, I probably will anyway because Buddy and I had decided that we
wanted to see a PDA like device for cheper the a Braille and Speak. We had
been looking for some sort of keyboard, but this seems like a way to keep
the size small, but stay usable. Any feedback is welcome.

Also, please let me know if your interested in playing with such a device
in intrest of advancing an idea. Formulating in my head, I think it
reasonable to have some prototyping done within a month. But this would be
a rough device to explore the method of input more then anything.

Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
------------------

Your fly might be open (but don't check it just now).

Re: braille input

[Janina Sajka]

I think a template would be a piece of plastic, maybe metal, hardware that
would overlay the screen. You'd be able to feel the cells with your
stylus.

And, whether or not brailling is to be reversed or left as we've been
learning it in school -- namely writing retrograde -- right to left --
because we're embossing paper through a metal guide that grips the paper
-- heck, that's a user configuration setting. It would be trivial to
simply flip that for each cell.


				Janina Sajka, Director
				Information Systems Research & Development
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

janina@afb.net


On Fri, 10 Mar 2000 cpt.kirk@1tree.net wrote:

> One thing that strikes me about this mode of input. It seems like it would
> be a compact method of inputing items and should have a much higher input
> rate then the scribbles that many PDAs use. I am inclined to think that
> the user should have a choice as to inputing either reverse like a typical
> slate and stylus or forward like it is read. I would hate to force
> something on someone that is used to reversing their braille writting. But
> hey, I am somewhat ignorant. I can read and write about grade 1.3 braille.
> I know some of the grade 2 stuff, but not all of it. And it has been
> awhile.
> 
> The other Kirk had brought up using a template with translation software
> to make use of the touch screen that is already on any PDa arround. While
> the idea is certainly sound and workable, I don't have a PDA. In fact all
> my blind friends are incapable of using any PDA today because they are all
> totals.
> 
> If there is interest here, I will start working on a braille input method.
> In fact, I probably will anyway because Buddy and I had decided that we
> wanted to see a PDA like device for cheper the a Braille and Speak. We had
> been looking for some sort of keyboard, but this seems like a way to keep
> the size small, but stay usable. Any feedback is welcome.
> 
> Also, please let me know if your interested in playing with such a device
> in intrest of advancing an idea. Formulating in my head, I think it
> reasonable to have some prototyping done within a month. But this would be
> a rough device to explore the method of input more then anything.
> 
> Kirk Wood
> Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
> ------------------
> 
> Your fly might be open (but don't check it just now).
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: braille input

[cpt.kirk]

I agree that it would be easy to flip the braille. But often times the
obvious gets left out of software. The list of easy to implement options
that were left out is too long as it is. i am just stating up front, that
I feel it best to implement the option. I wouldn't care to hear from the
guy who is peeved at not having such an easy to implement option.

Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
------------------

Your fly might be open (but don't check it just now).

Re: braille input

[craig martin]

hello, there,
I would like to try such a device out, sincce I use a Braille Desk
Delux.  I have wanted a braille keyboard to replace the ones I use on the
PC.  One, braille keyboards are smaller.  Two, I grew up with it as my
writing method.  3, we could put some of the functions on the front like
the Alvas, Navigators, and Braillexes.  This would be an input device
only, though.
thank you.

Re: braille input

[Buddy Brannan]

Hey,

Just a thought, but, well, here's a thought. If we wanna explore the whole
touch screen using braille input idea, why not schnag one of those tablet
PC's? I think Computer Geeks has one lately, but of course no HDD
installed. 8MB RAM though and a 486. Once we actually get some software
written to do braille input on a touch screen, I wonder if we might do a
first prototype on one of those? Well, it's a thought anyway. Specially if
we can find refurbs or lower-end ones to mess with. 

--
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV
Email: davros@ycardz.com
Voice mail: 877-791-5298
All opinions are all mine!

Re: braille input

[Janina Sajka]

Yes, you're correct.

Please forgive if I've offended.

				Janina Sajka, Director
				Information Systems Research & Development
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

janina@afb.net


On Fri, 10 Mar 2000 cpt.kirk@1tree.net wrote:

> I agree that it would be easy to flip the braille. But often times the
> obvious gets left out of software. The list of easy to implement options
> that were left out is too long as it is. i am just stating up front, that
> I feel it best to implement the option. I wouldn't care to hear from the
> guy who is peeved at not having such an easy to implement option.
> 
> Kirk Wood
> Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
> ------------------
> 
> Your fly might be open (but don't check it just now).
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: braille input

[Janina Sajka]

It comes down to software almost more than hardware, imho. What's the
difference between yesterday and today on this subject? What got us so
jazzed? PDA's have been around for awhile, so what was different this
time.

I think it was the notion of Linux as the OS. Why is that
exciting? Because it is quickly repurposed to our needs, whereas something
like Palm OS -- or WinCE isn't.

I think a touch screen would make a good cheap test. The trick is to build
the reliable daemon to grab the jabs and convert them accuratly to
keyboard input. The rest -- well it isn't exactly trivial -- but it would
be much much a bigger job under these other OS's. All of this would be a
bigger job.


				Janina Sajka, Director
				Information Systems Research & Development
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

janina@afb.net


On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Buddy Brannan wrote:

> Hey,
> 
> Just a thought, but, well, here's a thought. If we wanna explore the whole
> touch screen using braille input idea, why not schnag one of those tablet
> PC's? I think Computer Geeks has one lately, but of course no HDD
> installed. 8MB RAM though and a 486. Once we actually get some software
> written to do braille input on a touch screen, I wonder if we might do a
> first prototype on one of those? Well, it's a thought anyway. Specially if
> we can find refurbs or lower-end ones to mess with. 
> 
> --
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV
> Email: davros@ycardz.com
> Voice mail: 877-791-5298
> All opinions are all mine!
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: braille input

[scott howell]

I think this PDA is a great idea. Of course it would have to be prety
tough for us old slate users who know how to drive that stylous.<G>
Actually this would be a very logical solution. I'm not so sure if another
Braille-N-Speak type device is needed. Just my thoughts.
Be happy to help where I can.

Re: braille input

[Janina Sajka]

Scott,

You raise a very good point. Most people writing with a stylus don't punch
the way a blind slate and stylus user punches. This is definitely an
issue.


				Janina Sajka, Director
				Information Systems Research & Development
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

janina@afb.net


On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, scott howell wrote:

> I think this PDA is a great idea. Of course it would have to be prety
> tough for us old slate users who know how to drive that stylous.<G>
> Actually this would be a very logical solution. I'm not so sure if another
> Braille-N-Speak type device is needed. Just my thoughts.
> Be happy to help where I can.
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: braille input

[cpt.kirk]

> Please forgive if I've offended.
> 
I don't offend that easily.

Kirk Wood

Re: braille input

[cpt.kirk]

Buddy and I were talking some more at dinner (we live in the same town).
And the thing that both of us believe is that honestly, taking a current
PDA and adapting it might not be the best way to go.

Here is the thing about the touch screens. They do mean touch. if your
stylus comes into contact with the screen you are inputing information. To
get the feel of what the template on a screen would be like, take a piece
of a report cover and slip it into a slate. Then realize that the
slightest touch to the plastic is input.

Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
------------------

Your fly might be open (but don't check it just now).

Re: braille input

[Buddy Brannan]

Actually, I've been jazzed about PDA's for a while, but well you know how
it is. ... Anyway, the more I think about it, and Kirk (Wood) and I and I
have been talking a bit more. ... While jabbing with a stylus might be
something we might try and implement on something that already
exists--assuming we can work out a speech solution--just for ease and
speed of use, doing control characters, extra characters, whatever, a
braille keyboard (8-dot braille, I'm guessing) would probably be a better
long-term solution. Thoughts?


-- 
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV        | Friday whistle, how did I make it?
Email: davros@ycardz.com     | If I had my way, I'd run out naked!
Phone: (972) 889-8147        | Banging pub doors, hey! Let me in!
Voice mail: (877) 791-5298   | Gimme my blue jeans again.

Re: braille input

[scott howell]

Actually the only problem with a stylus is no real tactile feedback and
your right, characters not normally used in braille. THings like ctrl alt
etc. could probably be implemented easily enough.
Touch screens would work, but you'l need that template in order to know
where to put your fingers. I imagine even a small standard keyboard would
be possible, but then there would have to be provisions for screen review
keys. Still not impossible.
Geez its been a while since I used a braille writer. Always have used a
slate and stylus. In any case the braille writer keyboard would certainly
save space and although I havent' played with the Braille-N-Speak much, I
think they've nailed down many commands. An idea along those lines would
be possible.
Lots of thoughts. I wonder if there would be a way to contact someone in
the enginering and manufacturing side of the house for comments as
well. They aren't familiar perhaps with the needs of those who would use
these devics, but they might have some thoughts on how to implement it
with the existing systems.
I know a gent who works at Sony for example although he is in the cd
pressing business. Its possible he might have a contact.
Just a thought. It would be something to see this go from an idea on a
reflector to reallity. Would be a first.

Re: braille input

[cpt.kirk]

Well, I am thinking that if the route for input is a touch screen with
braille, the way for input of commands is further templating. (A hole to
touch for a given command. The thing is that in the sighted PDA world, no
ctrl keys are used. An area is set aside that one touchs to enter
commands. If placing a template on a current touch screen were used,
placing command areas on the template would be an easy extension.

Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
------------------

Your fly might be open (but don't check it just now).

Re: braille input

[Chuck Hallenbeck]

The way the BNS allows control characters to be input is to allow the use
of the space key as a shift key, much like the insert key in the speakup
review functi8ons. The arithmetic is encouraging: you get '2 to the 6th'
combinations on the normal six keys, and another '2 to the 6th' with the
simultaneous press (touch?) of the space key.

I personally love braille, and believe that all blind people should use
it, but the reality is that most blind people do not, and will not, and so
you need to think carefully about whose needs you intend to meet. On the
other hand, with a suitable software tutorial package for newbies, a touch
screen with speech feedback is an excellent way to actually teach braille.

What we need to find is a "push screen" rather than a "touch screen". One
where the switch action has a substantial amount of "reluctance". I have
seen control pads like that on kitchen appliances, they act like sluggish
or slightly insensitive touch pads. You can feel them and examine their
surface by finger without activating them.

Chuck.


My Web site is http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759.

Re: braille input

[cpt.kirk]

As far as target audience, I see it as being yourng professional (heading
to be a professional) blind people. A sign maker pointed out to me why the
overwhelming majority of blind people don't read braille. According to
information he had, well over half of the blind people in america are over
the age of 65. Let's face it, retired people are not likely to have the
moitvation to learn braille. I don't know what the litteracy statistic for
blind people under the age of about 35 are.

If one isn't willing to learn at least rudimentary braille, then I would
doubt the person's need for a pda anyway. But once a workable PDA was
arround, getting a normal keyboard isn't too tough.

Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
------------------

Your fly might be open (but don't check it just now).

Re: braille input

[Chuck Hallenbeck]

I seriously doubt that your signmaker knows what he is talking about.
There has been a disgraceful trend in this country for teachers of the
blind to be reluctant to teach braille, often arguing that modern
technology makes braille unnecessary. I am seventy years old myself, and
have worked with blind folks for a very long time. A lot of blind folks
regard the white cane and the use of braille as signs of weakness and
dependency instead of signs of strength and independence, and I do not see
any tendency for the situation to be improving. I hope I am wrong. Mayrbe
others have a different view.

Chuck.


 On Sat, 11 Mar 2000
cpt.kirk@1tree.net wrote:

> As far as target audience, I see it as being yourng professional (heading
> to be a professional) blind people. A sign maker pointed out to me why the
> overwhelming majority of blind people don't read braille. According to
> information he had, well over half of the blind people in america are over
> the age of 65. Let's face it, retired people are not likely to have the
> moitvation to learn braille. I don't know what the litteracy statistic for
> blind people under the age of about 35 are.
> 
> If one isn't willing to learn at least rudimentary braille, then I would
> doubt the person's need for a pda anyway. But once a workable PDA was
> arround, getting a normal keyboard isn't too tough.
> 
> Kirk Wood
> Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
> ------------------
> 
> Your fly might be open (but don't check it just now).
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

My Web site is http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759.

Re: braille input

[Janina Sajka]

Hi, Again:

Rates of braille literacy are generally given at between 5% and
10%. You've also figured out the reason for this pretty well. Any kind of
literacy is more difficult for adults than for children. This goes for
learning a new spoken language (think of immigrants' accents while their
kids have far fewer accent issues), and it goes for any kind of reading
and writing literacy. So, since the surest way to acquire a disability is
to live long enough, it should not be surprising that braille literacy
rates are low.

This does not answer whether people will like brailling on a PDA,
however. Powerful needs will compel some level of proficiency in writing
braille -- almost more important than reading it in fact.

Recognize that a blind person has very few options for important, if
mundane, tasks such as phone numbers, doctors instructions, perscription
numbers, dates and times of appointments, etc. Serial media, such as audio
tape are pretty useless. Paper based braille isn't much better--because
you can't insert text anywhere and it's very space hungry.

Certainly people have to work to learn how to write in braille. But
people have seemed willing to learn Grafitti. And, I would wager that
most BNS users write braille far better than they read it..


				Janina Sajka, Director
				Information Systems Research & Development
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

janina@afb.net


On Sat, 11 Mar 2000 cpt.kirk@1tree.net wrote:

> As far as target audience, I see it as being yourng professional (heading
> to be a professional) blind people. A sign maker pointed out to me why the
> overwhelming majority of blind people don't read braille. According to
> information he had, well over half of the blind people in america are over
> the age of 65. Let's face it, retired people are not likely to have the
> moitvation to learn braille. I don't know what the litteracy statistic for
> blind people under the age of about 35 are.
> 
> If one isn't willing to learn at least rudimentary braille, then I would
> doubt the person's need for a pda anyway. But once a workable PDA was
> arround, getting a normal keyboard isn't too tough.
> 
> Kirk Wood
> Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
> ------------------
> 
> Your fly might be open (but don't check it just now).
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: braille input

[craig martin]

hi, there.

Even those of us who write slowly with a slate could us it, because it may
be that some users write faster retrograde and some normally, and that is
real flexibility!

Re: braille input

[craig martin]

hi, there.

We could put function keys above the braille keyboard and more function
keys on the front and sides of the unit, but how much more would those
cost in terms of changing the physical configuration of our machine?  My
Braille desk delux has an alt, control, and function keys.  We would need
a lock switch if the keys were on the sides,  hmmm, just thinking out
loud, on second thought, we wouldn't need a lock switch, just a
combination start chord.   I'd like to see something like that for regular
P.C.S.

Re: braille input

[Janina Sajka]

Hi, Angelo:

Thank you for your enthusiasm. It's important to know that people really
want the kind of device we're talking about. Stay in touch. This really
could happen. Realize, though, that we only started talking about it here
on the net yesterday.


				Janina Sajka, Director
				Information Systems Research & Development
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

janina@afb.net


On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, Angelo Sonnesso wrote:

> I would like to fool around with your device when you are ready.  It sounds
> like a great idea.  I wish more of the people I work with read Braille.
> 
>