[raspberry-vi] A bit off topic, Speakup and Debian Stretch-Buster (fwd)

[raspberry-vi] A bit off topic, Speakup and Debian Stretch-Buster (fwd)

[Karen Lewellen]

Can someone help this person?
Kare



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:55:10 -0500
From: Chris Zenchenko <old78rpm@gmail.com>
Reply-To: raspberry-vi@freelists.org
To: raspberry-vi@freelists.org
Subject: [raspberry-vi] A bit off topic, Speakup and Debian Stretch-Buster

It appears the old Speakup list is long dead.
After several attempts to get somebody at the Debian accessibility email
address to respond I am putting this question out here hoping somebody knows
what is going on.
Up through Debian Jesse Speakup worked great.
After that no matter what hardware configuration or virtual VM-Ware
configuration I try Speakup won't stay talking for more than a few minutes.
It frequently quits during installation of the OS forcing me to start over
and over and over.
Speech just goes dead.
Log entries are no help since there is no log that survives the aborted
install.
Even once I have a full install I don't know where or what to look for to
tell me why speech died.
It seems to be related to how frequently I cause speech interupts by typing
or stopping speech during long output.
All of my Jesse installs continue to work even after updates but of course
that's starting to drop far behind.
The PI isn't an issue for me since I only ssh in to them but I'd like to be
doing that from a more modern version of Debian if possible.
73


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Re: [raspberry-vi] A bit off topic, Speakup and Debian Stretch-Buster (fwd)

[Samuel Thibault]

Hello,

Karen Lewellen, le sam. 21 mars 2020 17:39:53 -0400, a ecrit:
> It appears the old Speakup list is long dead.

? it is up and running, there were messages on each of the past months.

> After several attempts to get somebody at the Debian accessibility email
> address to respond

Neither the speakup nor the debian-accessibility mailing lists have
however received any of your emails, there must be some smtp issue
between your ISP and them.

> Speech just goes dead.
[...]
> It seems to be related to how frequently I cause speech interupts by typing
> or stopping speech during long output.

Did anybody notice something like this?

Samuel

Re: [raspberry-vi] A bit off topic, Speakup and Debian Stretch-Buster (fwd)

[Karen Lewellen]

  this communication should be directed to the person who actually wrote 
that post.  My goal   was simply forwarding their  exchange so someone 
could 
reach them.



On Sun, 22 Mar 2020, Samuel Thibault wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Karen Lewellen, le sam. 21 mars 2020 17:39:53 -0400, a ecrit:
>> It appears the old Speakup list is long dead.
>
> ? it is up and running, there were messages on each of the past months.
>
>> After several attempts to get somebody at the Debian accessibility email
>> address to respond
>
> Neither the speakup nor the debian-accessibility mailing lists have
> however received any of your emails, there must be some smtp issue
> between your ISP and them.
>
>> Speech just goes dead.
> [...]
>> It seems to be related to how frequently I cause speech interupts by typing
>> or stopping speech during long output.
>
> Did anybody notice something like this?
>
> Samuel
>
>

Re: [raspberry-vi] A bit off topic, Speakup and Debian Stretch-Buster (fwd)

[Samuel Thibault]

Karen Lewellen, le dim. 22 mars 2020 17:58:11 -0400, a ecrit:
>  this communication should be directed to the person who actually wrote that
> post.  My goal   was simply forwarding their  exchange so someone could
> reach them.

Sure, I understood, that's why I kept him in Cc.

Samuel

Re: [raspberry-vi] A bit off topic, Speakup and Debian Stretch-Buster (fwd)

[Karen Lewellen]

however, you kept my name at the top creating the confusion, and  me  in 
the thread.
Karen



On Sun, 22 Mar 2020, Samuel Thibault wrote:

> Karen Lewellen, le dim. 22 mars 2020 17:58:11 -0400, a ecrit:
>>  this communication should be directed to the person who actually wrote that
>> post.  My goal   was simply forwarding their  exchange so someone could
>> reach them.
>
> Sure, I understood, that's why I kept him in Cc.
>
> Samuel
>
>

Re: [raspberry-vi] A bit off topic, Speakup and Debian Stretch-Buster (fwd)

[Samuel Thibault]

Karen Lewellen, le dim. 22 mars 2020 18:14:15 -0400, a ecrit:
> however, you kept my name at the top creating the confusion, and  me  in the
> thread.

I wanted to let you know that this was getting answered, yes.

Samuel

Re: [raspberry-vi] A bit off topic, Speakup and Debian Stretch-Buster (fwd)

[Samuel Thibault]

Samuel Thibault, le dim. 22 mars 2020 23:15:53 +0100, a ecrit:
> Karen Lewellen, le dim. 22 mars 2020 18:14:15 -0400, a ecrit:
> > however, you kept my name at the top creating the confusion, and  me  in the
> > thread.
> 
> I wanted to let you know that this was getting answered, yes.

Ah, sorry, I see what you mean: your mail software didn't quote the
original mail with the sender's name, that's why my mail software quoted
it as your saying.

Samuel

Re: [raspberry-vi] A bit off topic, Speakup and Debian Stretch-Buster (fwd)

[Karen Lewellen]

I am on the speakup list, the post would be answer enough.
and the questions were not me  to begin with smiles.



On Sun, 22 Mar 2020, Samuel Thibault wrote:

> Karen Lewellen, le dim. 22 mars 2020 18:14:15 -0400, a ecrit:
>> however, you kept my name at the top creating the confusion, and  me  in the
>> thread.
>
> I wanted to let you know that this was getting answered, yes.
>
> Samuel
>
>

Re: [raspberry-vi] A bit off topic, Speakup and Debian Stretch-Buster (fwd)

[Chime Hart]

Jumping in for a quick question for Samuel? I always wondered why in each of 
your messages you quote some1, which seems a waste of time if we already heard 
an orriginal comment or question. Maybe as a suggestion, just a short 1liner 
paraphrasing where we are in a thread. Even though I have quoting in pine as lo 
as it goes, I still hear many of the headers, including something which sounds 
like aeigh crit. At least years ago, back on ComPuserve, there was seemingly no 
quoting. At least for some1 listening in a screen-reader, quoting is not such a 
good thing. Thanks in advance.
Chime

Re: [raspberry-vi] A bit off topic, Speakup and Debian Stretch-Buster (fwd)

[Samuel Thibault]

Chime Hart, le dim. 22 mars 2020 15:41:30 -0700, a ecrit:
> I always wondered why in each of your messages you quote some1, which
> seems a waste of time if we already heard an orriginal comment or
> question.

Because one doesn't necessarily read the mail immediately after the
previous mail of the same thread, so at least some context is needed to
know what I am talking about.

Samuel

Re: [raspberry-vi] A bit off topic, Speakup and Debian Stretch-Buster (fwd)

[Kirk Reiser]

There was a short period of time when the list was down for a week or
two at the end of February. If Chris tried during that time period he
may have thought the list was gone. However, I got the sense that he
thought it was down for a lot longer time period so maybe he doesn't
have the correct address or something.

I also suspect the losing speech may have been due to the speakup bug
we've been experiencing over the past six months or so. I for one will
be happy when the patch makes it into the sid distro at least.

   Kirk

On Sun, 22 Mar 2020, Samuel Thibault wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Karen Lewellen, le sam. 21 mars 2020 17:39:53 -0400, a ecrit:
>> It appears the old Speakup list is long dead.
>
> ? it is up and running, there were messages on each of the past months.
>
>> After several attempts to get somebody at the Debian accessibility email
>> address to respond
>
> Neither the speakup nor the debian-accessibility mailing lists have
> however received any of your emails, there must be some smtp issue
> between your ISP and them.
>
>> Speech just goes dead.
> [...]
>> It seems to be related to how frequently I cause speech interupts by typing
>> or stopping speech during long output.
>
> Did anybody notice something like this?
>
> Samuel
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: [raspberry-vi] A bit off topic, Speakup and Debian Stretch-Buster (fwd)

[Gregory Nowak]

On Sun, Mar 22, 2020 at 10:02:57PM +0100, Samuel Thibault wrote:
Chris wrote:
> > Speech just goes dead.
> [...]
> > It seems to be related to how frequently I cause speech interupts by typing
> > or stopping speech during long output.
> 

Samuel wrote:

> Did anybody notice something like this?

Yes, I've been testing devuan 3 beta install isos this past week,
which is based on debian 11. If I
attempt to do the install in a VirtualBox 5.2.38 guest using software
speech, speech goes away right after I get the screen to select the
language, and I try to adjust volume/rate. On my intel core i5 laptop,
the guest just crashes every time, regardless of if I use software or
hardware speech. On a guest running on my ryzen system, the same thing
happens. The difference is I can switch to the second console, press
enter, and modprobing a hardware synth module still works. I suspect
this is possibly related to the 4.19 kernel, and possibly speakup in
that kernel. This is as far as I've been able to investigate so far. I don't
yet know what happens on my ryzen system guest; if espeakup just crashes
and needs to be restarted, or something more serious.

Greg


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Re: [raspberry-vi] A bit off topic, Speakup and Debian Stretch-Buster (fwd)

[Gregory Nowak]

On Sun, Mar 22, 2020 at 11:00:40PM -0700, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> Yes, I've been testing devuan 3 beta install isos this past week,
> which is based on debian 11.

Oops, I meant debian 10.

Greg


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Re: [raspberry-vi] A bit off topic, Speakup and Debian Stretch-Buster (fwd)

[Glenn K0LNY]

I have a Raspberry PI Model B, version 2, and I'm trying to get eSpeak and 
speakup going.
I installed the version:
2020-02-13-raspbian-buster.img
and I can SSH into it, and I was getting audio out with:
speaker-test -c 2
but if I tried espeak "hello"
I didn't get anything until I installed pulseaudio.
Now the espeak works, but still no speakup on boot-up.
I installed speakup and that did not work, although it seemed to install 
okay.
I installed Orca with:
apt-get install gnome-orca
and that seemed to install okay, but it did not help speakup.
I had done a general Debian update before doing all the above.
The only way eSpeak works with strings of text is via SSH, not the plugged 
in keyboard.
I would like to get a desktop going, but this RPI may not have the RAM for 
it.
Glenn

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Samuel Thibault" <samuel.thibault@ens-lyon.org>
To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@shellworld.net>; <old78rpm@gmail.com>
Cc: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." 
<speakup@linux-speakup.org>
Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2020 4:02 PM
Subject: Re: [raspberry-vi] A bit off topic, Speakup and Debian 
Stretch-Buster (fwd)


> Hello,
>
> Karen Lewellen, le sam. 21 mars 2020 17:39:53 -0400, a ecrit:
>> It appears the old Speakup list is long dead.
>
> ? it is up and running, there were messages on each of the past months.
>
>> After several attempts to get somebody at the Debian accessibility email
>> address to respond
>
> Neither the speakup nor the debian-accessibility mailing lists have
> however received any of your emails, there must be some smtp issue
> between your ISP and them.
>
>> Speech just goes dead.
> [...]
>> It seems to be related to how frequently I cause speech interupts by 
>> typing
>> or stopping speech during long output.
>
> Did anybody notice something like this?
>
> Samuel
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup 

Re: [raspberry-vi] A bit off topic, Speakup and Debian Stretch-Buster (fwd)

[Tait Hoyem]

> I would like to get a desktop going, but this RPI may not have the RAM for

I also have an RPi2. I can confirm that although the desktop experience is slow, it does work. No need to worry about RAM in this case. I know somebody IRL who uses it as his main desktop computer, and we never had any problems except for compiling C++.
Not sure what DE is default though; this guy may have been using Xfce or MATE for all I know.

Anyway, desktop on RPi works, but is a bit slow.


Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Tuesday, March 24, 2020 4:40 PM, Glenn K0LNY <glennervin@cableone.net> wrote:

> I have a Raspberry PI Model B, version 2, and I'm trying to get eSpeak and
> speakup going.
> I installed the version:
> 2020-02-13-raspbian-buster.img
> and I can SSH into it, and I was getting audio out with:
> speaker-test -c 2
> but if I tried espeak "hello"
> I didn't get anything until I installed pulseaudio.
> Now the espeak works, but still no speakup on boot-up.
> I installed speakup and that did not work, although it seemed to install
> okay.
> I installed Orca with:
> apt-get install gnome-orca
> and that seemed to install okay, but it did not help speakup.
> I had done a general Debian update before doing all the above.
> The only way eSpeak works with strings of text is via SSH, not the plugged
> in keyboard.
> I would like to get a desktop going, but this RPI may not have the RAM for
> it.
> Glenn
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Samuel Thibault" samuel.thibault@ens-lyon.org
> To: "Karen Lewellen" klewellen@shellworld.net; old78rpm@gmail.com
> Cc: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
> speakup@linux-speakup.org
> Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2020 4:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [raspberry-vi] A bit off topic, Speakup and Debian
> Stretch-Buster (fwd)
>
> > Hello,
> > Karen Lewellen, le sam. 21 mars 2020 17:39:53 -0400, a ecrit:
> >
> > > It appears the old Speakup list is long dead.
> >
> > ? it is up and running, there were messages on each of the past months.
> >
> > > After several attempts to get somebody at the Debian accessibility email
> > > address to respond
> >
> > Neither the speakup nor the debian-accessibility mailing lists have
> > however received any of your emails, there must be some smtp issue
> > between your ISP and them.
> >
> > > Speech just goes dead.
> > > [...]
> > > It seems to be related to how frequently I cause speech interupts by
> > > typing
> > > or stopping speech during long output.
> >
> > Did anybody notice something like this?
> > Samuel
> >
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> > http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@linux-speakup.org
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: [raspberry-vi] A bit off topic, Speakup and Debian Stretch-Buster (fwd)

[Gregory Nowak]

On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 11:40:56AM -0500, Glenn K0LNY wrote:
> I have a Raspberry PI Model B, version 2, and I'm trying to get eSpeak and
> speakup going.
> I installed the version:
> 2020-02-13-raspbian-buster.img
> and I can SSH into it, and I was getting audio out with:
> speaker-test -c 2
> but if I tried espeak "hello"
> I didn't get anything until I installed pulseaudio.
> Now the espeak works, but still no speakup on boot-up.
> I installed speakup and that did not work, although it seemed to install
> okay.

I assume you mean espeakup, not speakup. I haven't used speakup on a
rpi since raspbian/devuan jessie. However, I do recall back then that
espeakup didn't work properly through the on board sound chip, and
Michael Ray I believe posted work arounds for that. I don't know if
the situation has changed since. I don't think espeakup and pulseaudio
will play any nicer on the rpi than they do on the PC. My solution
back then was to install speechd-up, and get output from speakup that way.

> I installed Orca with:
> apt-get install gnome-orca
> and that seemed to install okay, but it did not help speakup.

First, I don't see how installing orca is supposed to help speakup,
since they're separate screen readers using different interfaces to
provide speech output. Second, last time I checked, raspbian was using
their own slimed down desktop environment not using gtk, so that
wouldn't work with orca. I don't know if that has changed since
either. If it hasn't, your best bet is probably to install raspbian
light, and then manually install mate or xfce. It will be slow almost
to the point of not being very useful in my opinion, but it should
work. I think gnome is too bloated for the rpi, but I could be wrong there.

> I had done a general Debian update before doing all the above.
> The only way eSpeak works with strings of text is via SSH, not the plugged
> in keyboard.

Is the rpi recognizing the keyboard when you plug it in? Are you sure
you successfully logged in on a text console before attempting to run
espeak from the keyboard?

> I would like to get a desktop going, but this RPI may not have the RAM for
> it.

I tried mate on a rpi 3 back when I was using devuan jessie. It worked
as proof of concept, but browsing with firefox brought the unit to its
knees on most sites. A rpi2 might not have the RAM for a full GUI like
mate, but I could be wrong there too.

Greg


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Re: [raspberry-vi] A bit off topic, Speakup and Debian Stretch-Buster (fwd)

[Gregory Nowak]

I'm directing this back on list.


On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 07:40:11PM -0500, Glenn K0LNY wrote:
> I got it working, the only thing I need to do to get it fully functional is
> to make the WIFI work.
> I think what fixed the no speech was to use raspi-config to tell it to use
> option 1, which is not the HDMI.
> I also installed mate-desktop, but so far it hasn't booted to it.
> BTW, does anyone know how to change the speakup speech parameters?
> Like speed and such.

That's documented in the speakup user guide on
http://www.linux-speakup.org

Greg


> Thanks.
> 
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregory Nowak" <greg@gregn.net>
> To: "Glenn K0LNY" <GlennErvin@cableone.net>; "Speakup is a screen review
> system for Linux." <speakup@linux-speakup.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2020 6:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [raspberry-vi] A bit off topic, Speakup and Debian
> Stretch-Buster (fwd)
> 
> 
> >On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 11:40:56AM -0500, Glenn K0LNY wrote:
> >>I have a Raspberry PI Model B, version 2, and I'm trying to get eSpeak
> >>and
> >>speakup going.
> >>I installed the version:
> >>2020-02-13-raspbian-buster.img
> >>and I can SSH into it, and I was getting audio out with:
> >>speaker-test -c 2
> >>but if I tried espeak "hello"
> >>I didn't get anything until I installed pulseaudio.
> >>Now the espeak works, but still no speakup on boot-up.
> >>I installed speakup and that did not work, although it seemed to install
> >>okay.
> >
> >I assume you mean espeakup, not speakup. I haven't used speakup on a
> >rpi since raspbian/devuan jessie. However, I do recall back then that
> >espeakup didn't work properly through the on board sound chip, and
> >Michael Ray I believe posted work arounds for that. I don't know if
> >the situation has changed since. I don't think espeakup and pulseaudio
> >will play any nicer on the rpi than they do on the PC. My solution
> >back then was to install speechd-up, and get output from speakup that way.
> >
> >>I installed Orca with:
> >>apt-get install gnome-orca
> >>and that seemed to install okay, but it did not help speakup.
> >
> >First, I don't see how installing orca is supposed to help speakup,
> >since they're separate screen readers using different interfaces to
> >provide speech output. Second, last time I checked, raspbian was using
> >their own slimed down desktop environment not using gtk, so that
> >wouldn't work with orca. I don't know if that has changed since
> >either. If it hasn't, your best bet is probably to install raspbian
> >light, and then manually install mate or xfce. It will be slow almost
> >to the point of not being very useful in my opinion, but it should
> >work. I think gnome is too bloated for the rpi, but I could be wrong
> >there.
> >
> >>I had done a general Debian update before doing all the above.
> >>The only way eSpeak works with strings of text is via SSH, not the
> >>plugged
> >>in keyboard.
> >
> >Is the rpi recognizing the keyboard when you plug it in? Are you sure
> >you successfully logged in on a text console before attempting to run
> >espeak from the keyboard?
> >
> >>I would like to get a desktop going, but this RPI may not have the RAM
> >>for
> >>it.
> >
> >I tried mate on a rpi 3 back when I was using devuan jessie. It worked
> >as proof of concept, but browsing with firefox brought the unit to its
> >knees on most sites. A rpi2 might not have the RAM for a full GUI like
> >mate, but I could be wrong there too.
> >
> >Greg
> >
> >
> >-- 
> >web site: http://www.gregn.net
> >gpg public key: http://www.gregn.net/pubkey.asc
> >skype: gregn1
> >(authorization required, add me to your contacts list first)
> >If we haven't been in touch before, e-mail me before adding me to your
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> >
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> 

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Re: [raspberry-vi] A bit off topic, Speakup and Debian Stretch-Buster (fwd)

[mail]

This may be related:
I am trying to install debian10.3 from the installation iso (I think it was dated
February 8th.
The Kernel hangs issueing the following message repeatedly
until I shut down the system:

"/var/run/brltty-xorg no such fileor directory."

Of course I am not attempting to use brltty.

I also noticed that there is not aninstallation option for brltty.
There is not even an option for a hardware synthizer with speakup.

Can it be that some installer person has decided to combine all
accessibility drivers into one  installation option and one
kernel, whether they work together or not?

It occurs to me that a hung kernel stuck issuing an error message
like that might stop the whole system from talking,
Since brltty is not a module, I cannot even use
brltty.blacklist=yes.

Even if this is not related, can someone figure out how to
get it fixed.

How about taking brltty completely out of the kernel and make the
brltty users make their own kernels, like the speakup users had to do before we learned to work with the kernel, and play nice.

D. Curtis Willoughby  ka0vba@dimcom.net

p.s. We really need an installer option to install with a hardware synthizer, too!

Re: [raspberry-vi] A bit off topic, Speakup and Debian Stretch-Buster (fwd)

[Gregory Nowak]

On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 07:59:11PM -0600, mail wrote:
> I also noticed that there is not aninstallation option for brltty.
> There is not even an option for a hardware synthizer with speakup.

Sounds like you didn't read the debian installation manual, or didn't
look at wiki.debian.org/accessibility. In the case of a USB braille
display, brltty detects it automatically. In the case of serial
displays, the debian installation manual describes how to pass the
appropriate options to brltty when starting the installer.

As far as speakup hardware synthesizers, they're also supported. You
need to press tab, space, and type speakup.synth=xxx at the boot
prompt, where xxx is speakup's designation for your synthesizer.

> 
> Can it be that some installer person has decided to combine all
> accessibility drivers into one  installation option and one
> kernel, whether they work together or not?

Yes, everything is together in one kernel, and I can assure you they
do all work together, brltty, hardware synthesizers, and all.

> 
> It occurs to me that a hung kernel stuck issuing an error message
> like that might stop the whole system from talking,
> Since brltty is not a module, I cannot even use
> brltty.blacklist=yes.

You'll need to be more specific.

> 
> Even if this is not related, can someone figure out how to
> get it fixed.

You'll need to provide enough details to reproduce the problem. What
did you do to make it happen exactly.

> 
> How about taking brltty completely out of the kernel and make the
> brltty users make their own kernels, like the speakup users had to do before we learned to work with the kernel, and play nice.

Brltty isn't in the kernel, it is entirely in user space as far as I know.

Greg


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Re: [raspberry-vi] A bit off topic, Speakup and Debian Stretch-Buster (fwd)

[Samuel Thibault]

Gregory Nowak, le mer. 25 mars 2020 21:38:53 -0700, a ecrit:
> On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 07:59:11PM -0600, mail wrote:
> > Even if this is not related, can someone figure out how to
> > get it fixed.
> 
> You'll need to provide enough details to reproduce the problem. What
> did you do to make it happen exactly.

Also, please provide the exact URL from which you download the ISO
image. There are various images in several places, and while normally
they all support accessibility, some of them might be borked, so we need
to know *which* one is to be able to fix it.

Samuel