Talking bios

Talking bios

[Allan Shaw]

Back in the very early days of the 8286 CPU's one of the leading bios 
manufacturers at that time whom i believe was called Phoenix had a utility 
which came with any system containing there bios which would allow you to 
modify/configure/set the parameters within the bios by running this utility 
from at that time a command prompt.

I had a system with this type of bios and was using the Artic speech 
product and could change anything I require within the bios and then only 
had to reboot my machine to pick up the changes.

so as with many things, all we need to do is once again make the old 
something new again and develop something similar for the modern day bios 
and make our life a little easier.
If the Phoenix company is still around, maybe that would be a good place to 
start.
  

Re: Talking bios

[Scott Berry]

Actually Pheonix and I can't think of the other company have joined
forces.  So maybe if we hit both companies that would be good.

On Tue, 23
Dec 2003, Allan Shaw wrote:

>
> Back in the very early days of the 8286 CPU's one of the leading bios
> manufacturers at that time whom i believe was called Phoenix had a utility
> which came with any system containing there bios which would allow you to
> modify/configure/set the parameters within the bios by running this utility
> from at that time a command prompt.
>
> I had a system with this type of bios and was using the Artic speech
> product and could change anything I require within the bios and then only
> had to reboot my machine to pick up the changes.
>
> so as with many things, all we need to do is once again make the old
> something new again and develop something similar for the modern day bios
> and make our life a little easier.
> If the Phoenix company is still around, maybe that would be a good place to
> start.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

-- 
Scott Berry
Email: n7zib@bresnan.net

Re: Talking bios

[Janina Sajka]

Let's generalize this a bit further.

Virtually all non Intel computers can be accessed over a serial port at
9600 baud. At least, this has been historically true for systems from
DEC, Sun, etc.

In other words, the inaccessible bios was first created for Intel
computing platforms.

I believe this is an important point which should not be forgotten in
any advocacy for accessibility on future bios implementations. We're not
asking for something new. We're asking that something be maintained.

For example, my DEC Alphastation 200 has a perfectly accessible bios. I
simply disconnect the monitor and plug a Braille 'N Speakup into its
first serial port and have at it. It's brilliant, and this is how I
configured the bios on the computer that is now my home server.

My experience with this ten year old DEC is the historic norm for
computing. 

Allan Shaw writes:
> From: Allan Shaw <technews@sympatico.ca>
> 
> 
> Back in the very early days of the 8286 CPU's one of the leading bios 
> manufacturers at that time whom i believe was called Phoenix had a utility 
> which came with any system containing there bios which would allow you to 
> modify/configure/set the parameters within the bios by running this utility 
> from at that time a command prompt.
> 
> I had a system with this type of bios and was using the Artic speech 
> product and could change anything I require within the bios and then only 
> had to reboot my machine to pick up the changes.
> 
> so as with many things, all we need to do is once again make the old 
> something new again and develop something similar for the modern day bios 
> and make our life a little easier.
> If the Phoenix company is still around, maybe that would be a good place to 
> start.
>  
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
Janina Sajka
Email: janina@rednote.net		
Phone: (202) 408-8175

Director, Technology Research and Development
American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
http://www.afb.org

Chair, Accessibility Work Group
Free Standards Group
http://accessibility.freestandards.org

Re: Talking bios

[Allan Shaw]

... I wouldn't consider having to connect a Braille 'N Speak to your system 
a system with a perfectly accessible bios, in fact the exact opposit!

At 11:45 12/23/03, you wrote:
>Let's generalize this a bit further.
>
>Virtually all non Intel computers can be accessed over a serial port at
>9600 baud. At least, this has been historically true for systems from
>DEC, Sun, etc.
>
>In other words, the inaccessible bios was first created for Intel
>computing platforms.
>
>I believe this is an important point which should not be forgotten in
>any advocacy for accessibility on future bios implementations. We're not
>asking for something new. We're asking that something be maintained.
>
>For example, my DEC Alphastation 200 has a perfectly accessible bios. I
>simply disconnect the monitor and plug a Braille 'N Speakup into its
>first serial port and have at it. It's brilliant, and this is how I
>configured the bios on the computer that is now my home server.
>
>My experience with this ten year old DEC is the historic norm for
>computing.
>
>Allan Shaw writes:
> > From: Allan Shaw <technews@sympatico.ca>
> >
> >
> > Back in the very early days of the 8286 CPU's one of the leading bios
> > manufacturers at that time whom i believe was called Phoenix had a utility
> > which came with any system containing there bios which would allow you to
> > modify/configure/set the parameters within the bios by running this 
> utility
> > from at that time a command prompt.
> >
> > I had a system with this type of bios and was using the Artic speech
> > product and could change anything I require within the bios and then only
> > had to reboot my machine to pick up the changes.
> >
> > so as with many things, all we need to do is once again make the old
> > something new again and develop something similar for the modern day bios
> > and make our life a little easier.
> > If the Phoenix company is still around, maybe that would be a good 
> place to
> > start.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>--
>
>Janina Sajka
>Email: janina@rednote.net
>Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
>Director, Technology Research and Development
>American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>http://www.afb.org
>
>Chair, Accessibility Work Group
>Free Standards Group
>http://accessibility.freestandards.org
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Talking bios

[Janina Sajka]

I should think the opposite is a bios you can't read without sight.

Allan Shaw writes:
> From: Allan Shaw <technews@sympatico.ca>
> 
> 
> ... I wouldn't consider having to connect a Braille 'N Speak to your system 
> a system with a perfectly accessible bios, in fact the exact opposit!
> 
> At 11:45 12/23/03, you wrote:
> >Let's generalize this a bit further.
> >
> >Virtually all non Intel computers can be accessed over a serial port at
> >9600 baud. At least, this has been historically true for systems from
> >DEC, Sun, etc.
> >
> >In other words, the inaccessible bios was first created for Intel
> >computing platforms.
> >
> >I believe this is an important point which should not be forgotten in
> >any advocacy for accessibility on future bios implementations. We're not
> >asking for something new. We're asking that something be maintained.
> >
> >For example, my DEC Alphastation 200 has a perfectly accessible bios. I
> >simply disconnect the monitor and plug a Braille 'N Speakup into its
> >first serial port and have at it. It's brilliant, and this is how I
> >configured the bios on the computer that is now my home server.
> >
> >My experience with this ten year old DEC is the historic norm for
> >computing.
> >
> >Allan Shaw writes:
> >> From: Allan Shaw <technews@sympatico.ca>
> >>
> >>
> >> Back in the very early days of the 8286 CPU's one of the leading bios
> >> manufacturers at that time whom i believe was called Phoenix had a 
> >utility
> >> which came with any system containing there bios which would allow you to
> >> modify/configure/set the parameters within the bios by running this 
> >utility
> >> from at that time a command prompt.
> >>
> >> I had a system with this type of bios and was using the Artic speech
> >> product and could change anything I require within the bios and then only
> >> had to reboot my machine to pick up the changes.
> >>
> >> so as with many things, all we need to do is once again make the old
> >> something new again and develop something similar for the modern day bios
> >> and make our life a little easier.
> >> If the Phoenix company is still around, maybe that would be a good 
> >place to
> >> start.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Speakup mailing list
> >> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >--
> >
> >Janina Sajka
> >Email: janina@rednote.net
> >Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> >Director, Technology Research and Development
> >American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >http://www.afb.org
> >
> >Chair, Accessibility Work Group
> >Free Standards Group
> >http://accessibility.freestandards.org
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
Janina Sajka
Email: janina@rednote.net		
Phone: (202) 408-8175

Director, Technology Research and Development
American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
http://www.afb.org

Chair, Accessibility Work Group
Free Standards Group
http://accessibility.freestandards.org

Re: Talking bios

[Alex Snow]

you have a dec alpha? sweet!
I'm thinking of grabbing one of those off of ebay or something. they 
seem like cool machines from what I've heard. and the bios is 
accessible?
On Tue, Dec 23, 2003 at 07:54:35PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> I should think the opposite is a bios you can't read without sight.
> 
> Allan Shaw writes:
> > From: Allan Shaw <technews@sympatico.ca>
> > 
> > 
> > ... I wouldn't consider having to connect a Braille 'N Speak to your system 
> > a system with a perfectly accessible bios, in fact the exact opposit!
> > 
> > At 11:45 12/23/03, you wrote:
> > >Let's generalize this a bit further.
> > >
> > >Virtually all non Intel computers can be accessed over a serial port at
> > >9600 baud. At least, this has been historically true for systems from
> > >DEC, Sun, etc.
> > >
> > >In other words, the inaccessible bios was first created for Intel
> > >computing platforms.
> > >
> > >I believe this is an important point which should not be forgotten in
> > >any advocacy for accessibility on future bios implementations. We're not
> > >asking for something new. We're asking that something be maintained.
> > >
> > >For example, my DEC Alphastation 200 has a perfectly accessible bios. I
> > >simply disconnect the monitor and plug a Braille 'N Speakup into its
> > >first serial port and have at it. It's brilliant, and this is how I
> > >configured the bios on the computer that is now my home server.
> > >
> > >My experience with this ten year old DEC is the historic norm for
> > >computing.
> > >
> > >Allan Shaw writes:
> > >> From: Allan Shaw <technews@sympatico.ca>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Back in the very early days of the 8286 CPU's one of the leading bios
> > >> manufacturers at that time whom i believe was called Phoenix had a 
> > >utility
> > >> which came with any system containing there bios which would allow you to
> > >> modify/configure/set the parameters within the bios by running this 
> > >utility
> > >> from at that time a command prompt.
> > >>
> > >> I had a system with this type of bios and was using the Artic speech
> > >> product and could change anything I require within the bios and then only
> > >> had to reboot my machine to pick up the changes.
> > >>
> > >> so as with many things, all we need to do is once again make the old
> > >> something new again and develop something similar for the modern day bios
> > >> and make our life a little easier.
> > >> If the Phoenix company is still around, maybe that would be a good 
> > >place to
> > >> start.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Speakup mailing list
> > >> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > >> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >--
> > >
> > >Janina Sajka
> > >Email: janina@rednote.net
> > >Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > >
> > >Director, Technology Research and Development
> > >American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > >http://www.afb.org
> > >
> > >Chair, Accessibility Work Group
> > >Free Standards Group
> > >http://accessibility.freestandards.org
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Speakup mailing list
> > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> -- 
> 	
> Janina Sajka
> Email: janina@rednote.net		
> Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> Director, Technology Research and Development
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> http://www.afb.org
> 
> Chair, Accessibility Work Group
> Free Standards Group
> http://accessibility.freestandards.org
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
Always borrow money from a pessimist; he doesn't expect to be paid
back.

Re: Talking bios

[Shaun Oliver]

I had my chance to aquire a dec alpha I tell ya what for 30 bux, I couldn't complain..
if the opportunity presents itself again, I'll be aquiring one of these babies.


at the 
risk of being 
helpful, Alex Snow delivered up the following on Tue, Dec 23, 2003 at 09:06:56PM -0500, 
> you have a dec alpha? sweet!
> I'm thinking of grabbing one of those off of ebay or something. they 
> seem like cool machines from what I've heard. and the bios is 
> accessible?
> On Tue, Dec 23, 2003 at 07:54:35PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > I should think the opposite is a bios you can't read without sight.
> > 
> > Allan Shaw writes:
> > > From: Allan Shaw <technews@sympatico.ca>
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ... I wouldn't consider having to connect a Braille 'N Speak to your system 
> > > a system with a perfectly accessible bios, in fact the exact opposit!
> > > 
> > > At 11:45 12/23/03, you wrote:
> > > >Let's generalize this a bit further.
> > > >
> > > >Virtually all non Intel computers can be accessed over a serial port at
> > > >9600 baud. At least, this has been historically true for systems from
> > > >DEC, Sun, etc.
> > > >
> > > >In other words, the inaccessible bios was first created for Intel
> > > >computing platforms.
> > > >
> > > >I believe this is an important point which should not be forgotten in
> > > >any advocacy for accessibility on future bios implementations. We're not
> > > >asking for something new. We're asking that something be maintained.
> > > >
> > > >For example, my DEC Alphastation 200 has a perfectly accessible bios. I
> > > >simply disconnect the monitor and plug a Braille 'N Speakup into its
> > > >first serial port and have at it. It's brilliant, and this is how I
> > > >configured the bios on the computer that is now my home server.
> > > >
> > > >My experience with this ten year old DEC is the historic norm for
> > > >computing.
> > > >
> > > >Allan Shaw writes:
> > > >> From: Allan Shaw <technews@sympatico.ca>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Back in the very early days of the 8286 CPU's one of the leading bios
> > > >> manufacturers at that time whom i believe was called Phoenix had a 
> > > >utility
> > > >> which came with any system containing there bios which would allow you to
> > > >> modify/configure/set the parameters within the bios by running this 
> > > >utility
> > > >> from at that time a command prompt.
> > > >>
> > > >> I had a system with this type of bios and was using the Artic speech
> > > >> product and could change anything I require within the bios and then only
> > > >> had to reboot my machine to pick up the changes.
> > > >>
> > > >> so as with many things, all we need to do is once again make the old
> > > >> something new again and develop something similar for the modern day bios
> > > >> and make our life a little easier.
> > > >> If the Phoenix company is still around, maybe that would be a good 
> > > >place to
> > > >> start.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> Speakup mailing list
> > > >> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > >> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >--
> > > >
> > > >Janina Sajka
> > > >Email: janina@rednote.net
> > > >Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > >
> > > >Director, Technology Research and Development
> > > >American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > >http://www.afb.org
> > > >
> > > >Chair, Accessibility Work Group
> > > >Free Standards Group
> > > >http://accessibility.freestandards.org
> > > >
> > > >_______________________________________________
> > > >Speakup mailing list
> > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> > -- 
> > 	
> > Janina Sajka
> > Email: janina@rednote.net		
> > Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > 
> > Director, Technology Research and Development
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > http://www.afb.org
> > 
> > Chair, Accessibility Work Group
> > Free Standards Group
> > http://accessibility.freestandards.org
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> -- 
> Always borrow money from a pessimist; he doesn't expect to be paid
> back.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
Shaun Oliver


"I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person."
email: shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au
WEB: http://blindman.homelinux.org/
IRC: irc.awesomechat.net:6666
IRCNICK: blindman

Re: Talking bios

[Janina Sajka]

I would certainly buy one for $30 and maybe even for 3 or 4 times that.
I'd want a faster chip, though. At this point I think it should be
possible to pick up the faster chips fairly easily because Compaq is
killing this chip, I guess in favor of the Itanium. I'm currently
spec'ing building a system with the AMD Opteron using a Tyan board.


Shaun Oliver writes:
> From: Shaun Oliver <shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au>
> 
> I had my chance to aquire a dec alpha I tell ya what for 30 bux, I couldn't complain..
> if the opportunity presents itself again, I'll be aquiring one of these babies.

Re: Talking bios

[Janina Sajka]

Yes, mine is a DEC Alphastation AS 200, which means that it was intended
to be a high-end workstation back about ten years ago. It has a 233
megaherz cpu, and about 80 megs of RAM. I wish I had more RAM, but
mostly this does. I have two scsi drives in it with about 53 Gb of total
space on them. I use both the internal NCR scsi chip and a PCI TekRam
scsi controller. The machine also has a floppy and a cd rom drive
(mounted scsi). I boot off the cd rom.

The coolest thing, in a way, is that there's an isa slot where my
internal Doubletalk lives. I have no video on board, because I pulled
the video card that came with this unit in favor of a 3com ethernet card
for a second ethernet port to serve my local lan. Speakup talks nicely
over the Doubletalk using the "dummy video" capibility in Linux. Very
cool.

I have a ups on this system and it reliably restarts if my power goes
down. However, it's not safe to warm restart this system remotely,
because it won't come back. I learned that the hard way. Of course, it
doesn't need restarting except for a new Linux kernel (mostly).

What I have not succeeded activating on this system is the builtin audio
which is also isa. I may try again with a 2.6 kernel. I should add,
though, that I've only tried using the supplied configure scripts for
various alsa deb packages. I have not tried compiling from scratch for
alsa audio.

What this system is doing for me includes:

mail with sendmail -- mostly for myself.
web server with apache for myself and several other domains
dns for a few domains that I host. omc;idomg rednote.net.

When I travel, I log into this box over ssh if I have reasonable speed
wherever I happen to be. I especially like the 'ssh -R' switch for
providing reliable secure access to my traveling portable for anyone
that needs to reach that system while I'm on the road. Works like a
charm and always at the same telnet localhost port. Very cool.

If my net speed is lousy on the road, I do background, encrypted and
authenticated email access. In other words, my portable system runs
sendmail but only sends via an authenticated connection to this alpha
box. This also lets me build up a queue of mail while I'm disconnected
that I can push when next I'm online.





Shaun Oliver writes:
> From: Shaun Oliver <shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au>
> 
> I had my chance to aquire a dec alpha I tell ya what for 30 bux, I couldn't complain..
> if the opportunity presents itself again, I'll be aquiring one of these babies.

Re: Talking bios

[Alex Snow]

Yeah I'm going to seriously look into picking one of these up.
On Wed, 
Dec 24, 2003 at 12:51:53PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> Yes, mine is a DEC Alphastation AS 200, which means that it was intended
> to be a high-end workstation back about ten years ago. It has a 233
> megaherz cpu, and about 80 megs of RAM. I wish I had more RAM, but
> mostly this does. I have two scsi drives in it with about 53 Gb of total
> space on them. I use both the internal NCR scsi chip and a PCI TekRam
> scsi controller. The machine also has a floppy and a cd rom drive
> (mounted scsi). I boot off the cd rom.
> 
> The coolest thing, in a way, is that there's an isa slot where my
> internal Doubletalk lives. I have no video on board, because I pulled
> the video card that came with this unit in favor of a 3com ethernet card
> for a second ethernet port to serve my local lan. Speakup talks nicely
> over the Doubletalk using the "dummy video" capibility in Linux. Very
> cool.
> 
> I have a ups on this system and it reliably restarts if my power goes
> down. However, it's not safe to warm restart this system remotely,
> because it won't come back. I learned that the hard way. Of course, it
> doesn't need restarting except for a new Linux kernel (mostly).
> 
> What I have not succeeded activating on this system is the builtin audio
> which is also isa. I may try again with a 2.6 kernel. I should add,
> though, that I've only tried using the supplied configure scripts for
> various alsa deb packages. I have not tried compiling from scratch for
> alsa audio.
> 
> What this system is doing for me includes:
> 
> mail with sendmail -- mostly for myself.
> web server with apache for myself and several other domains
> dns for a few domains that I host. omc;idomg rednote.net.
> 
> When I travel, I log into this box over ssh if I have reasonable speed
> wherever I happen to be. I especially like the 'ssh -R' switch for
> providing reliable secure access to my traveling portable for anyone
> that needs to reach that system while I'm on the road. Works like a
> charm and always at the same telnet localhost port. Very cool.
> 
> If my net speed is lousy on the road, I do background, encrypted and
> authenticated email access. In other words, my portable system runs
> sendmail but only sends via an authenticated connection to this alpha
> box. This also lets me build up a queue of mail while I'm disconnected
> that I can push when next I'm online.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shaun Oliver writes:
> > From: Shaun Oliver <shaun_oliver@optusnet.com.au>
> > 
> > I had my chance to aquire a dec alpha I tell ya what for 30 bux, I couldn't complain..
> > if the opportunity presents itself again, I'll be aquiring one of these babies.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
Always borrow money from a pessimist; he doesn't expect to be paid
back.

Re: Talking bios

[Janina Sajka]

There are two apps for bios access on the Alpha:

Milo is a menued interface which I didn't find to be at all accessible.

SRM is straight 9600 8bn1 serial command line driven. Very arcane
commands, but very accessible once you learn the commands.

And, almost the coolest part is how you activate serial communications
-- just unplug any video monitor in the VGA port and plug something into
the first serial port. Bingo, you're up at the SRM's >>> prompt.

Downside is that, if you're on a BNS kind of device, you have to be
careful what file you're in! <grin> I've trashed a few files because I
wasn't careful.

Alex Snow writes:
> From: Alex Snow <alex_snow@gmx.net>
> 
> you have a dec alpha? sweet!
> I'm thinking of grabbing one of those off of ebay or something. they 
> seem like cool machines from what I've heard. and the bios is 
> accessible?

Re: Talking bios

[Alex Snow]

cool.
On Wed, Dec 24, 2003 at 12:49:24PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> There are two apps for bios access on the Alpha:
> 
> Milo is a menued interface which I didn't find to be at all accessible.
> 
> SRM is straight 9600 8bn1 serial command line driven. Very arcane
> commands, but very accessible once you learn the commands.
> 
> And, almost the coolest part is how you activate serial communications
> -- just unplug any video monitor in the VGA port and plug something into
> the first serial port. Bingo, you're up at the SRM's >>> prompt.
> 
> Downside is that, if you're on a BNS kind of device, you have to be
> careful what file you're in! <grin> I've trashed a few files because I
> wasn't careful.
> 
> Alex Snow writes:
> > From: Alex Snow <alex_snow@gmx.net>
> > 
> > you have a dec alpha? sweet!
> > I'm thinking of grabbing one of those off of ebay or something. they 
> > seem like cool machines from what I've heard. and the bios is 
> > accessible?
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
Always borrow money from a pessimist; he doesn't expect to be paid
back.

Re: Talking bios

[Janina Sajka]

I guess I should be complete about the advice here ...

If you get a system which is currently using Milo, you have to set a
jumper to switch to SRM.

But, if you get an Alpha, you know where to ask for help! <grin>

Alex Snow writes:
> From: Alex Snow <alex_snow@gmx.net>
> 
> cool.
> On Wed, Dec 24, 2003 at 12:49:24PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > There are two apps for bios access on the Alpha:
> > 
> > Milo is a menued interface which I didn't find to be at all accessible.
> > 
> > SRM is straight 9600 8bn1 serial command line driven. Very arcane
> > commands, but very accessible once you learn the commands.
> > 
> > And, almost the coolest part is how you activate serial communications
> > -- just unplug any video monitor in the VGA port and plug something into
> > the first serial port. Bingo, you're up at the SRM's >>> prompt.
> > 
> > Downside is that, if you're on a BNS kind of device, you have to be
> > careful what file you're in! <grin> I've trashed a few files because I
> > wasn't careful.
> > 
> > Alex Snow writes:
> > > From: Alex Snow <alex_snow@gmx.net>
> > > 
> > > you have a dec alpha? sweet!
> > > I'm thinking of grabbing one of those off of ebay or something. they 
> > > seem like cool machines from what I've heard. and the bios is 
> > > accessible?
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> -- 
> Always borrow money from a pessimist; he doesn't expect to be paid
> back.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
Janina Sajka
Email: janina@rednote.net		
Phone: (202) 408-8175

Director, Technology Research and Development
American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
http://www.afb.org

Chair, Accessibility Work Group
Free Standards Group
http://accessibility.freestandards.org

Re: Talking bios

[Allan Shaw]

... but that's not what you indicated.  You indicated that you feel that by 
connecting a Braille"n Speak to your system which allows you to access the 
bios makes that bios perfectly accessible.  that's only one option, what if 
you don't happen to own a braille'n speak?


At 19:54 12/23/03, you wrote:
>I should think the opposite is a bios you can't read without sight.
>
>Allan Shaw writes:
> > From: Allan Shaw <technews@sympatico.ca>
> >
> >
> > ... I wouldn't consider having to connect a Braille 'N Speak to your 
> system
> > a system with a perfectly accessible bios, in fact the exact opposit!
> >
> > At 11:45 12/23/03, you wrote:
> > >Let's generalize this a bit further.
> > >
> > >Virtually all non Intel computers can be accessed over a serial port at
> > >9600 baud. At least, this has been historically true for systems from
> > >DEC, Sun, etc.
> > >
> > >In other words, the inaccessible bios was first created for Intel
> > >computing platforms.
> > >
> > >I believe this is an important point which should not be forgotten in
> > >any advocacy for accessibility on future bios implementations. We're not
> > >asking for something new. We're asking that something be maintained.
> > >
> > >For example, my DEC Alphastation 200 has a perfectly accessible bios. I
> > >simply disconnect the monitor and plug a Braille 'N Speakup into its
> > >first serial port and have at it. It's brilliant, and this is how I
> > >configured the bios on the computer that is now my home server.
> > >
> > >My experience with this ten year old DEC is the historic norm for
> > >computing.
> > >
> > >Allan Shaw writes:
> > >> From: Allan Shaw <technews@sympatico.ca>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Back in the very early days of the 8286 CPU's one of the leading bios
> > >> manufacturers at that time whom i believe was called Phoenix had a
> > >utility
> > >> which came with any system containing there bios which would allow 
> you to
> > >> modify/configure/set the parameters within the bios by running this
> > >utility
> > >> from at that time a command prompt.
> > >>
> > >> I had a system with this type of bios and was using the Artic speech
> > >> product and could change anything I require within the bios and then 
> only
> > >> had to reboot my machine to pick up the changes.
> > >>
> > >> so as with many things, all we need to do is once again make the old
> > >> something new again and develop something similar for the modern day 
> bios
> > >> and make our life a little easier.
> > >> If the Phoenix company is still around, maybe that would be a good
> > >place to
> > >> start.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Speakup mailing list
> > >> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > >> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >--
> > >
> > >Janina Sajka
> > >Email: janina@rednote.net
> > >Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > >
> > >Director, Technology Research and Development
> > >American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > >http://www.afb.org
> > >
> > >Chair, Accessibility Work Group
> > >Free Standards Group
> > >http://accessibility.freestandards.org
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Speakup mailing list
> > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>--
>
>Janina Sajka
>Email: janina@rednote.net
>Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
>Director, Technology Research and Development
>American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>http://www.afb.org
>
>Chair, Accessibility Work Group
>Free Standards Group
>http://accessibility.freestandards.org
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Intro and newbie questions

[Garry Turkington]

Hi,

Firstly a greeting to all on the list from a newcomer.  My name is Garry 
Turkington and though I'm new to Speakup I've been using and developing on 
Linux since about 1995 or so.  In that time I've used a DOS screen reader 
and accessed a Linux box as a dumb serial console.  However, having to 
keep my main desktop as an eternal dual boot finally frustrated me enough 
to want to do something about native access to Linux.

Which implies I really should know enough to get Speakup working!  Despite 
this though I've a few questions which hopefully someone can clear up for 
me.

As I've already got a number of established RedHat or Fedora installs I 
just want to add Speakup to one or more of these, not do a fresh install 
from the modified Shrike ISOs on the website.  Apart from the -spk2 kernel 
packages are there any other differences between these disks and the stock 
RH 9?

WWhen looking to build Speakup into a kernel tree I firstly did some 
poking around the RH/Fedora kernel config files and noticed that the 
Speakup definitions are in there but never used.  Memory also seems to 
suggest that at one point, (maybe around RH 7.3 or 8?) that Speakup was 
fully built into the 'out of the box' kernel?  Any pointers to the history 
here and what's going on?

Finally, to bootstrap things I installed the latest -spk2 kernel from the 
Shrike ISOs into a running RH9 system and then tried a "modprobe 
speakup_decext" to use my Dectalk Express.  I think though that Speakup is 
trying to grab /dev/ttyS0, which is my current serial console and things 
get a bit messed up from that point.  Losing the serial console also makes 
it hard to debug.  /dev/ttyS1 should be properly set up, does the speakup 
module take parameters to tell it which serial port to use?

Many thanks for any info/help,
Garry

-- 
Garry Turkington   
garry.turkington@acm.org

Re: Intro and newbie questions

[Janina Sajka]

Hi, Gary, and welcome to life as a native Speakup user. I think you'll
find that you'll wonder what took you so long once you get past your
configuration issue.

To answer the historic question, Speakup was provided with every boxed
set of Red Hat 8. Those were the days. Don't ask about the politics that
followed. Long story and a diversion at this time. Suffice it to say
that some of us haven't given up on having Speaklup back in the box for
each and every distro.

Now, for the problem at hand ...

I don't honestly know what to tell you. I think we need to have Kirk
explain how we pass a port parameter when building an initrd image,
which is the better way to have Speakup start nowadays.

If you can put the port parameters into your /etc/modules.conf and start
that way, you should be able to build an initrd and have it pick up the
port. The mkinitrd command is usually:

;mkinitrd -v -f /boot/initrd-[version].img --with=speakup_[synth.word]
[kernel-version]

You might try creating this image. Try temporarily disconnecting
whatever you have in /dev/ttyS0 to see if the mkinitrd finds the
appropriate port.

Please write back on how you go with this. I am working on the revised
HOWTO and need to know. Also, I'm sure we can figure this out with you.

Garry Turkington writes:
> From: Garry Turkington <garry.turkington@acm.org>
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Firstly a greeting to all on the list from a newcomer.  My name is Garry 
> Turkington and though I'm new to Speakup I've been using and developing on 
> Linux since about 1995 or so.  In that time I've used a DOS screen reader 
> and accessed a Linux box as a dumb serial console.  However, having to 
> keep my main desktop as an eternal dual boot finally frustrated me enough 
> to want to do something about native access to Linux.
> 
> Which implies I really should know enough to get Speakup working!  Despite 
> this though I've a few questions which hopefully someone can clear up for 
> me.
> 
> As I've already got a number of established RedHat or Fedora installs I 
> just want to add Speakup to one or more of these, not do a fresh install 
> from the modified Shrike ISOs on the website.  Apart from the -spk2 kernel 
> packages are there any other differences between these disks and the stock 
> RH 9?
> 
> WWhen looking to build Speakup into a kernel tree I firstly did some 
> poking around the RH/Fedora kernel config files and noticed that the 
> Speakup definitions are in there but never used.  Memory also seems to 
> suggest that at one point, (maybe around RH 7.3 or 8?) that Speakup was 
> fully built into the 'out of the box' kernel?  Any pointers to the history 
> here and what's going on?
> 
> Finally, to bootstrap things I installed the latest -spk2 kernel from the 
> Shrike ISOs into a running RH9 system and then tried a "modprobe 
> speakup_decext" to use my Dectalk Express.  I think though that Speakup is 
> trying to grab /dev/ttyS0, which is my current serial console and things 
> get a bit messed up from that point.  Losing the serial console also makes 
> it hard to debug.  /dev/ttyS1 should be properly set up, does the speakup 
> module take parameters to tell it which serial port to use?
> 
> Many thanks for any info/help,
> Garry
> 
> -- 
> Garry Turkington   
> garry.turkington@acm.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
Janina Sajka
Email: janina@rednote.net		
Phone: (202) 408-8175

Director, Technology Research and Development
American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
http://www.afb.org

Chair, Accessibility Work Group
Free Standards Group
http://accessibility.freestandards.org

Re: Talking bios

[Jacob Schmude]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi
Well, strikes me that if you own any kind of terminal capable of communicating at 9600 baud you could take advantage of this sort of access. This includes 
second computers, laptops, other notetakers, and whatever else you may have. Perhaps it won't benefit everybody, but IMHO, a little access sure as hell beats 
the access we have now., and I'd say access such as this, if it ever was implemented on a PC bios, would be a damn good start to something long overdue.

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 21:39:56 -0500, Allan Shaw wrote:


>... but that's not what you indicated.  You indicated that you feel that by 
>connecting a Braille"n Speak to your system which allows you to access the 
>bios makes that bios perfectly accessible.  that's only one option, what if 
>you don't happen to own a braille'n speak?


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP SDK 3.0

iQA/AwUBP+lipZXfgIVMPEIbEQJlcwCfT81FryU8tlEG93Xjt3lc4y1reLsAnifH
gGrQe1kg5RSHqJGzOdR2ZWKF
=lvQC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: Talking bios

[Alex Snow]

I don't give a damn if I have to connect a braille 'n squeak or any 
other device to my box as long as it makes the bios accessible. I hate 
getting sited help with this kind of stuff.
On Wed, Dec 24, 2003 at 
04:55:49AM -0500, Jacob Schmude wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Hi
> Well, strikes me that if you own any kind of terminal capable of communicating at 9600 baud you could take advantage of this sort of access. This includes 
> second computers, laptops, other notetakers, and whatever else you may have. Perhaps it won't benefit everybody, but IMHO, a little access sure as hell beats 
> the access we have now., and I'd say access such as this, if it ever was implemented on a PC bios, would be a damn good start to something long overdue.
> 
> On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 21:39:56 -0500, Allan Shaw wrote:
> 
> 
> >... but that's not what you indicated.  You indicated that you feel that by 
> >connecting a Braille"n Speak to your system which allows you to access the 
> >bios makes that bios perfectly accessible.  that's only one option, what if 
> >you don't happen to own a braille'n speak?
> 
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: PGP SDK 3.0
> 
> iQA/AwUBP+lipZXfgIVMPEIbEQJlcwCfT81FryU8tlEG93Xjt3lc4y1reLsAnifH
> gGrQe1kg5RSHqJGzOdR2ZWKF
> =lvQC
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
Always borrow money from a pessimist; he doesn't expect to be paid
back.

Re: Talking bios

[Janina Sajka]

Part of the problem in asking for sighted assistance with this kind of
stuff is that you become emeshed with your assistant's level of
competence in such matters. Generally, this means that you are severly
dumbed down, and can barely get anything accomplished. In my experience,
at least, the person helping is usually overwhelmed and can barely even
notice what needs to be seen on screen without careful coaching or even
gentle ego coddling.

I could go on, but that would just be self-serving.

Point is that we're not asking for anything new. We're asking for
something that most of us don't have experience with, though, because it
was common in an era before, and with higher end computers, than most of
us have had access to. I do think recognizing that access through
connected terminal devices is as old as computing helps our advocacy by
pointing out that what we need is as old as the hills. I think it serves
to make people more comfortable that they can deliver for us because
they're not necessarily inventing something new.



Alex Snow writes:
> From: Alex Snow <alex_snow@gmx.net>
> 
> I don't give a damn if I have to connect a braille 'n squeak or any 
> other device to my box as long as it makes the bios accessible. I hate 
> getting sited help with this kind of stuff.
> On Wed, Dec 24, 2003 at 
> 04:55:49AM -0500, Jacob Schmude wrote:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> > 
> > Hi
> > Well, strikes me that if you own any kind of terminal capable of communicating at 9600 baud you could take advantage of this sort of access. This includes 
> > second computers, laptops, other notetakers, and whatever else you may have. Perhaps it won't benefit everybody, but IMHO, a little access sure as hell beats 
> > the access we have now., and I'd say access such as this, if it ever was implemented on a PC bios, would be a damn good start to something long overdue.
> > 
> > On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 21:39:56 -0500, Allan Shaw wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > >... but that's not what you indicated.  You indicated that you feel that by 
> > >connecting a Braille"n Speak to your system which allows you to access the 
> > >bios makes that bios perfectly accessible.  that's only one option, what if 
> > >you don't happen to own a braille'n speak?
> > 
> > 
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > Version: PGP SDK 3.0
> > 
> > iQA/AwUBP+lipZXfgIVMPEIbEQJlcwCfT81FryU8tlEG93Xjt3lc4y1reLsAnifH
> > gGrQe1kg5RSHqJGzOdR2ZWKF
> > =lvQC
> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> -- 
> Always borrow money from a pessimist; he doesn't expect to be paid
> back.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
Janina Sajka
Email: janina@rednote.net		
Phone: (202) 408-8175

Director, Technology Research and Development
American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
http://www.afb.org

Chair, Accessibility Work Group
Free Standards Group
http://accessibility.freestandards.org

Re: Talking bios

[Alex Snow]

I once had a sited herson help me with the bios on an old 486 adding 
another disk. they were like ok it sys system setup, then some 
technical garbage, more technical garbage, and at the botom it says 
pres f1 for help.
On Wed, Dec 24, 2003 at 11:39:37AM -0500, Janina Sajka 
wrote:
> Part of the problem in asking for sighted assistance with this kind of
> stuff is that you become emeshed with your assistant's level of
> competence in such matters. Generally, this means that you are severly
> dumbed down, and can barely get anything accomplished. In my experience,
> at least, the person helping is usually overwhelmed and can barely even
> notice what needs to be seen on screen without careful coaching or even
> gentle ego coddling.
> 
> I could go on, but that would just be self-serving.
> 
> Point is that we're not asking for anything new. We're asking for
> something that most of us don't have experience with, though, because it
> was common in an era before, and with higher end computers, than most of
> us have had access to. I do think recognizing that access through
> connected terminal devices is as old as computing helps our advocacy by
> pointing out that what we need is as old as the hills. I think it serves
> to make people more comfortable that they can deliver for us because
> they're not necessarily inventing something new.
> 
> 
> 
> Alex Snow writes:
> > From: Alex Snow <alex_snow@gmx.net>
> > 
> > I don't give a damn if I have to connect a braille 'n squeak or any 
> > other device to my box as long as it makes the bios accessible. I hate 
> > getting sited help with this kind of stuff.
> > On Wed, Dec 24, 2003 at 
> > 04:55:49AM -0500, Jacob Schmude wrote:
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > > Hash: SHA1
> > > 
> > > Hi
> > > Well, strikes me that if you own any kind of terminal capable of communicating at 9600 baud you could take advantage of this sort of access. This includes 
> > > second computers, laptops, other notetakers, and whatever else you may have. Perhaps it won't benefit everybody, but IMHO, a little access sure as hell beats 
> > > the access we have now., and I'd say access such as this, if it ever was implemented on a PC bios, would be a damn good start to something long overdue.
> > > 
> > > On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 21:39:56 -0500, Allan Shaw wrote:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > >... but that's not what you indicated.  You indicated that you feel that by 
> > > >connecting a Braille"n Speak to your system which allows you to access the 
> > > >bios makes that bios perfectly accessible.  that's only one option, what if 
> > > >you don't happen to own a braille'n speak?
> > > 
> > > 
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > > Version: PGP SDK 3.0
> > > 
> > > iQA/AwUBP+lipZXfgIVMPEIbEQJlcwCfT81FryU8tlEG93Xjt3lc4y1reLsAnifH
> > > gGrQe1kg5RSHqJGzOdR2ZWKF
> > > =lvQC
> > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> > -- 
> > Always borrow money from a pessimist; he doesn't expect to be paid
> > back.
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> -- 
> 	
> Janina Sajka
> Email: janina@rednote.net		
> Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> Director, Technology Research and Development
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> http://www.afb.org
> 
> Chair, Accessibility Work Group
> Free Standards Group
> http://accessibility.freestandards.org
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
Always borrow money from a pessimist; he doesn't expect to be paid
back.

Re: Talking bios

[Janina Sajka]

Part of the problem in asking for sighted assistance with this kind of
stuff is that you become emeshed with your assistant's level of
competence in such matters. Generally, this means that you are severly
dumbed down, and can barely get anything accomplished. In my experience,
at least, the person helping is usually overwhelmed and can barely even
notice what needs to be seen on screen without careful coaching or even
gentle ego coddling.

I could go on, but that would just be self-serving.

Point is that we're not asking for anything new. We're asking for
something that most of us don't have experience with, though, because it
was common in an era before, and with higher end computers, than most of
us have had access to. I do think recognizing that access through
connected terminal devices is as old as computing helps our advocacy by
pointing out that what we need is as old as the hills. I think it serves
to make people more comfortable that they can deliver for us because
they're not necessarily inventing something new.



Alex Snow writes:
> From: Alex Snow <alex_snow@gmx.net>
> 
> I don't give a damn if I have to connect a braille 'n squeak or any 
> other device to my box as long as it makes the bios accessible. I hate 
> getting sited help with this kind of stuff.

Re: Talking bios

[Janina Sajka]

Exactly. The BNS, in my particular instance, was just what I had at
hand. It could just as easily been any kind of terminal device capable
of serial communication.

Jacob Schmude writes:
> From: "Jacob Schmude" <jschmude@adelphia.net>
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Hi
> Well, strikes me that if you own any kind of terminal capable of communicating at 9600 baud you could take advantage of this sort of access. This includes 
> second computers, laptops, other notetakers, and whatever else you may have. Perhaps it won't benefit everybody, but IMHO, a little access sure as hell beats 
> the access we have now., and I'd say access such as this, if it ever was implemented on a PC bios, would be a damn good start to something long overdue.
> 
> On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 21:39:56 -0500, Allan Shaw wrote:
> 
> 
> >... but that's not what you indicated.  You indicated that you feel that by 
> >connecting a Braille"n Speak to your system which allows you to access the 
> >bios makes that bios perfectly accessible.  that's only one option, what if 
> >you don't happen to own a braille'n speak?
> 
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: PGP SDK 3.0
> 
> iQA/AwUBP+lipZXfgIVMPEIbEQJlcwCfT81FryU8tlEG93Xjt3lc4y1reLsAnifH
> gGrQe1kg5RSHqJGzOdR2ZWKF
> =lvQC
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
Janina Sajka
Email: janina@rednote.net		
Phone: (202) 408-8175

Director, Technology Research and Development
American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
http://www.afb.org

Chair, Accessibility Work Group
Free Standards Group
http://accessibility.freestandards.org

Re: Talking bios

[Glenn Ervin at Home]

I have a terminal port on my router.  It is a 9 pin serial.
Would this work with such a BIOS, or not?  It seems to me that there would
be no way for the BIOS to see the router at that point.
Glenn.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jacob Schmude" <jschmude@adelphia.net>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 3:55 AM
Subject: Re: Talking bios


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi
Well, strikes me that if you own any kind of terminal capable of
communicating at 9600 baud you could take advantage of this sort of access.
This includes
second computers, laptops, other notetakers, and whatever else you may have.
Perhaps it won't benefit everybody, but IMHO, a little access sure as hell
beats
the access we have now., and I'd say access such as this, if it ever was
implemented on a PC bios, would be a damn good start to something long
overdue.

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 21:39:56 -0500, Allan Shaw wrote:


>... but that's not what you indicated.  You indicated that you feel that by
>connecting a Braille"n Speak to your system which allows you to access the
>bios makes that bios perfectly accessible.  that's only one option, what if
>you don't happen to own a braille'n speak?


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Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Talking bios

[Janina Sajka]

Your router undoubtedly lacks the software needed to function as a
terminal.

As always in computing, hardware isn't enough. Some software must make
that hardware do the job intended.

The terminal that did the job in the olden days was a teletypewriter,
whence we get tty. You may have seen these in a museum. They had a
typewriter keyboard and a big fat roll of paper. Somebody far away could
make the machine type on that paper. And the person sitting at the
machine could type and make thousands of similar devices type the same
chars worldwide. This is how news was transmitted in the days before
sattelites. And, for the sake of news, there were tty devices that just
had the big fat rolls of paper and no keyboard for typing. They were,
ahem, dumb terminals.

So, to get back to your router, the serial port is for plugging a
terminal in. It's not for using your router as a terminal, because it
isn't equipped for that kind of thing.

Glenn Ervin at Home writes:
> From: "Glenn Ervin at Home" <GlennErvin@cableone.net>
> 
> I have a terminal port on my router.  It is a 9 pin serial.
> Would this work with such a BIOS, or not?  It seems to me that there would
> be no way for the BIOS to see the router at that point.
> Glenn.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jacob Schmude" <jschmude@adelphia.net>
> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 3:55 AM
> Subject: Re: Talking bios
> 
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Hi
> Well, strikes me that if you own any kind of terminal capable of
> communicating at 9600 baud you could take advantage of this sort of access.
> This includes
> second computers, laptops, other notetakers, and whatever else you may have.
> Perhaps it won't benefit everybody, but IMHO, a little access sure as hell
> beats
> the access we have now., and I'd say access such as this, if it ever was
> implemented on a PC bios, would be a damn good start to something long
> overdue.
> 
> On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 21:39:56 -0500, Allan Shaw wrote:
> 
> 
> >... but that's not what you indicated.  You indicated that you feel that by
> >connecting a Braille"n Speak to your system which allows you to access the
> >bios makes that bios perfectly accessible.  that's only one option, what if
> >you don't happen to own a braille'n speak?
> 
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: PGP SDK 3.0
> 
> iQA/AwUBP+lipZXfgIVMPEIbEQJlcwCfT81FryU8tlEG93Xjt3lc4y1reLsAnifH
> gGrQe1kg5RSHqJGzOdR2ZWKF
> =lvQC
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
Janina Sajka
Email: janina@rednote.net		
Phone: (202) 408-8175

Director, Technology Research and Development
American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
http://www.afb.org

Chair, Accessibility Work Group
Free Standards Group
http://accessibility.freestandards.org

Re: Talking bios

[Alex Snow]

no. that port is for doing administration tasks on the router using a 
terminal. 
the good routers have multiple interfaces, web, telnet, and serial.
On 
Thu, Dec 25, 2003 at 09:14:03AM -0600, Glenn Ervin at Home wrote:
> I have a terminal port on my router.  It is a 9 pin serial.
> Would this work with such a BIOS, or not?  It seems to me that there would
> be no way for the BIOS to see the router at that point.
> Glenn.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jacob Schmude" <jschmude@adelphia.net>
> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 3:55 AM
> Subject: Re: Talking bios
> 
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Hi
> Well, strikes me that if you own any kind of terminal capable of
> communicating at 9600 baud you could take advantage of this sort of access.
> This includes
> second computers, laptops, other notetakers, and whatever else you may have.
> Perhaps it won't benefit everybody, but IMHO, a little access sure as hell
> beats
> the access we have now., and I'd say access such as this, if it ever was
> implemented on a PC bios, would be a damn good start to something long
> overdue.
> 
> On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 21:39:56 -0500, Allan Shaw wrote:
> 
> 
> >... but that's not what you indicated.  You indicated that you feel that by
> >connecting a Braille"n Speak to your system which allows you to access the
> >bios makes that bios perfectly accessible.  that's only one option, what if
> >you don't happen to own a braille'n speak?
> 
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: PGP SDK 3.0
> 
> iQA/AwUBP+lipZXfgIVMPEIbEQJlcwCfT81FryU8tlEG93Xjt3lc4y1reLsAnifH
> gGrQe1kg5RSHqJGzOdR2ZWKF
> =lvQC
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
Always borrow money from a pessimist; he doesn't expect to be paid
back.

Re: Talking bios

[Janina Sajka]

You misunderstand me. The BNS was just particular to my circumstance.
Digital Equipment Corporation certainly didn't design their bios for a
particular device from a particular assistive technology vendor. Quite
the opposite. They used a standard mechanism in the computer trade,
called serial terminal, so that anyone with any kind of a terminal
capable of serial communication could use whatever device it is they
had.

It just happens that my serial terminal device, that I happen to have,
was a BNS. It could easily be anything else, as has already been pointed
out.

Allan Shaw writes:
> From: Allan Shaw <technews@sympatico.ca>
> 
> 
> ... but that's not what you indicated.  You indicated that you feel that by 
> connecting a Braille"n Speak to your system which allows you to access the 
> bios makes that bios perfectly accessible.  that's only one option, what if 
> you don't happen to own a braille'n speak?
> 
> 
> At 19:54 12/23/03, you wrote:
> >I should think the opposite is a bios you can't read without sight.
> >
> >Allan Shaw writes:
> >>
> >>
> >> ... I wouldn't consider having to connect a Braille 'N Speak to your 
> >system
> >> a system with a perfectly accessible bios, in fact the exact opposit!

Re: Talking bios

[Luke Davis]

How so?  She can connect a device to her computer, and just like that the
BIOS is accessible.  How is that the oposit of accessible?  That is the
picture of accessible, as far as I can tell.

 On Tue, 23 Dec 2003, Allan
Shaw wrote:

>
> ... I wouldn't consider having to connect a Braille 'N Speak to your system
> a system with a perfectly accessible bios, in fact the exact opposit!
>
> At 11:45 12/23/03, you wrote:

Re: Talking bios

[Lorenzo Prince]

I guess the issue some people have is that perfect accessibility can only be achieved by making the bios talk for itself 
instead of having to connect a very expensive device to it that can cost as much as the computer just to get it to talk.  
I generally share that opinion, but I will also add that anything at all is better than nothing.

PRINCE

The famous speaker who no one had heard of said:
> How so?  She can connect a device to her computer, and just like that the
> BIOS is accessible.  How is that the oposit of accessible?  That is the
> picture of accessible, as far as I can tell.
> 
>  On Tue, 23 Dec 2003, Allan
> Shaw wrote:

Re: Talking bios

[Janina Sajka]

As a matter of principle, I would agree with you. But, there's a problem
here. Ultimately, the computer boots from a very simple command/call.
That bootstraps the next call, which then bootstraps a bit more. In the
initial instance, these are very simple calls that don't support any
kind of fancy stuff like painting pretty pictures on screen, let alone a
self-voicing application.

Of course, some of the discussion here has been about bios applications
that are huge and could support fancy features like pretty pictures of
many splash screens, and perhaps even some self-voicing.

But, I can promise you that people, in general, aren't going to want
their computers chatting up the bios as the system boots. So, you're
driven back to some mechanism to make that start. What would that be?
And, how do you know when to engage that mechanism:? Please recognize
that there was a minor war over putting a simple Ctrl-G into the GDM
application to let us know that we could now login to the now speech
enabled graphical desktop. We have one beep, sometimes, when bios leaves
and system OS booting starts. I would expect major complaints over yet
another beep.

Besides, how are you going to debug a badly behaving bios if you expect
it to be self-voicing? And if it isn't self-voicing, how does it provide
access except that it talks to some device that you hook up, which
brings you full circle to where I reported on connecting a BNS to take
advantage of serial terminal capacities in the DEC computer I have.

I don't see how we get around the need to connect a smarter device to a,
as yet very dumb system in order to fully satisfy our need to configure
without sighted assistance.


Lorenzo Prince writes:
> From: Lorenzo Prince <lorenzo@prince.homelinux.org>
> 
> I guess the issue some people have is that perfect accessibility can only be achieved by making the bios talk for itself 
> instead of having to connect a very expensive device to it that can cost as much as the computer just to get it to talk.  
> I generally share that opinion, but I will also add that anything at all is better than nothing.
> 
> PRINCE
> 
> The famous speaker who no one had heard of said:
> > How so?  She can connect a device to her computer, and just like that the
> > BIOS is accessible.  How is that the oposit of accessible?  That is the
> > picture of accessible, as far as I can tell.

Re: Talking bios

[Lorenzo Prince]

The famous speaker who no one had heard of said:
> But, I can promise you that people, in general, aren't going to want
> their computers chatting up the bios as the system boots. So, you're
> driven back to some mechanism to make that start. What would that be?

We can have the normal key that activates the non-self-voicing bios config utility and maybe shift or control with the 
same key to turn on the speech.  No need to press both key combos just one or the other.  E.G.press the delete key, 
(very common on many systems to activate bios config) to activate it without the voice, or press shift-delete to 
activate it with speech.  I never said it would be easy, or even widely accepted at first, I just would like for 
accessibility of the bios to end up like this maybe in a few years or so.  In the meantime, we can start with something 
that requires having another device connected, as this is what would work best with today's systems.

> And, how do you know when to engage that mechanism:? Please recognize
> that there was a minor war over putting a simple Ctrl-G into the GDM
> application to let us know that we could now login to the now speech
> enabled graphical desktop. We have one beep, sometimes, when bios leaves
> and system OS booting starts. I would expect major complaints over yet
> another beep.

Just a suggestion, but this could work... Most systems are setup so that as soon as you turn on the power you can press 
the bios key.  This would work just as well for the self-voicing bios utility.  No need to wait to hear a beep, as it's 
ready as soon as you hit the power button or as soon as the monitor reactivates if rebooting, and by the time you hear a 
beep, it's too late for a sighted person to press the bios key.

> Besides, how are you going to debug a badly behaving bios if you expect
> it to be self-voicing? And if it isn't self-voicing, how does it provide
> access except that it talks to some device that you hook up, which
> brings you full circle to where I reported on connecting a BNS to take
> advantage of serial terminal capacities in the DEC computer I have.

And how would you debug the bios if for whatever reason neither the voice nor the serial connectivity are working?  The 
idea of a self-voicicing bios with serial connectivity as a backup is probably the best option, as it adds a failsafe 
system where if one doesn't work the other will.

> I don't see how we get around the need to connect a smarter device to a,
> as yet very dumb system in order to fully satisfy our need to configure
> without sighted assistance.

Well, for now, I agree.  It's the best option for systoms of today.  But as bios apps get bigger and more complex, 
serial connectivity will only produce garbage in the future.  Eventually, even serial connectivity would have to be 
perfected so that only necessary information is spoken on the terminal device and so that things like pretty pictures 
aren't sent to the terminal device, which can't necessarily handle them.  The next step, by order of the progress of 
technology, is the self-voicing bios, which can be accessed separately at boot time, and is specifically designed to 
allow complete and perfect access to the bios configuration and any other apps or services provided in the bios.  This 
will undoubtedly take a lot of time, and it may need to be coded as an update for now, (an add-on or plugin to the 
existing bios), but eventually, it should be possible, especially with the Open-source community working on the project.  
There may be no need at all for the manufacturers to get involved.  Things like Linuxbios and the Open Bios Project may 
be the best to fill these needs.  Besides, companies that provide such technology usually like to provide it on a 
separate basis.  They will have products for sighted people and products for blind people, and the charge whatever they 
want for the products for blind people.  Either that, or they don't get involved at all, and a different company that 
only makes products for blind people will step in and say "Well.  Here is a major moneymaking opportunity.  Lets make a 
talking bios and put it on a 'blind-specific motherbord' and charge $$$$ for a $$$ board just because it talks."  That 
is why the open projects may be the best to fill this need rather than selling the idea to manufacturers who are using 
their own proprietary bios.  The trick then is to get the open project to be compatible with as many boards as possible, 
and this idea is a little easier to sell to the manufacturers of boards.

PRINCE

Re: Talking bios

[Sean McMahon]

That's a good point couldn't you make sound come out the pc speaker?
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lorenzo Prince" <lorenzo@prince.homelinux.org>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 9:10 AM
Subject: Re: Talking bios


> I guess the issue some people have is that perfect accessibility can only
be achieved by making the bios talk for itself
> instead of having to connect a very expensive device to it that can cost
as much as the computer just to get it to talk.
> I generally share that opinion, but I will also add that anything at all
is better than nothing.
>
> PRINCE
>
> The famous speaker who no one had heard of said:
> > How so?  She can connect a device to her computer, and just like that
the
> > BIOS is accessible.  How is that the oposit of accessible?  That is the
> > picture of accessible, as far as I can tell.
> >
> >  On Tue, 23 Dec 2003, Allan
> > Shaw wrote:
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Talking bios

[Alex Snow]

that would depend on the speaker. some newer machines barely have a pc 
speaker so that would make speach unclear. some older machines I've 
seen have really good pc speakers. another idea would be to pipe the 
speaker through the onboard sound which most computers with onboard 
audio do or to put an external speaker jack for the internal speaker.
On 
Tue, Dec 30, 2003 at 09:42:11AM -0700, Sean McMahon wrote:
> That's a good point couldn't you make sound come out the pc speaker?
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Lorenzo Prince" <lorenzo@prince.homelinux.org>
> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 9:10 AM
> Subject: Re: Talking bios
> 
> 
> > I guess the issue some people have is that perfect accessibility can only
> be achieved by making the bios talk for itself
> > instead of having to connect a very expensive device to it that can cost
> as much as the computer just to get it to talk.
> > I generally share that opinion, but I will also add that anything at all
> is better than nothing.
> >
> > PRINCE
> >
> > The famous speaker who no one had heard of said:
> > > How so?  She can connect a device to her computer, and just like that
> the
> > > BIOS is accessible.  How is that the oposit of accessible?  That is the
> > > picture of accessible, as far as I can tell.
> > >
> > >  On Tue, 23 Dec 2003, Allan
> > > Shaw wrote:
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
Always borrow money from a pessimist; he doesn't expect to be paid
back.

Re: Talking bios

[Garrett Klein]

Or, as in my case, some comps don't have a PC speaker at all.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Snow" <alex_snow@gmx.net>
To: "Sean McMahon" <smcmahon@usgs.gov>; "Speakup is a screen review system
for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 11:53 AM
Subject: Re: Talking bios


> that would depend on the speaker. some newer machines barely have a pc
> speaker so that would make speach unclear. some older machines I've
> seen have really good pc speakers. another idea would be to pipe the
> speaker through the onboard sound which most computers with onboard
> audio do or to put an external speaker jack for the internal speaker.
> On
> Tue, Dec 30, 2003 at 09:42:11AM -0700, Sean McMahon wrote:
> > That's a good point couldn't you make sound come out the pc speaker?
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Lorenzo Prince" <lorenzo@prince.homelinux.org>
> > To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
<speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 9:10 AM
> > Subject: Re: Talking bios
> >
> >
> > > I guess the issue some people have is that perfect accessibility can
only
> > be achieved by making the bios talk for itself
> > > instead of having to connect a very expensive device to it that can
cost
> > as much as the computer just to get it to talk.
> > > I generally share that opinion, but I will also add that anything at
all
> > is better than nothing.
> > >
> > > PRINCE
> > >
> > > The famous speaker who no one had heard of said:
> > > > How so?  She can connect a device to her computer, and just like
that
> > the
> > > > BIOS is accessible.  How is that the oposit of accessible?  That is
the
> > > > picture of accessible, as far as I can tell.
> > > >
> > > >  On Tue, 23 Dec 2003, Allan
> > > > Shaw wrote:
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> --
> Always borrow money from a pessimist; he doesn't expect to be paid
> back.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Talking bios

[Alex Snow]

you have a compaq right?
bc on those the pc speaker is usually put through the onboard sound.
On 
Tue, Dec 30, 2003 at 06:54:52PM -0500, Garrett Klein wrote:
> Or, as in my case, some comps don't have a PC speaker at all.
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alex Snow" <alex_snow@gmx.net>
> To: "Sean McMahon" <smcmahon@usgs.gov>; "Speakup is a screen review system
> for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 11:53 AM
> Subject: Re: Talking bios
> 
> 
> > that would depend on the speaker. some newer machines barely have a pc
> > speaker so that would make speach unclear. some older machines I've
> > seen have really good pc speakers. another idea would be to pipe the
> > speaker through the onboard sound which most computers with onboard
> > audio do or to put an external speaker jack for the internal speaker.
> > On
> > Tue, Dec 30, 2003 at 09:42:11AM -0700, Sean McMahon wrote:
> > > That's a good point couldn't you make sound come out the pc speaker?
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Lorenzo Prince" <lorenzo@prince.homelinux.org>
> > > To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 9:10 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Talking bios
> > >
> > >
> > > > I guess the issue some people have is that perfect accessibility can
> only
> > > be achieved by making the bios talk for itself
> > > > instead of having to connect a very expensive device to it that can
> cost
> > > as much as the computer just to get it to talk.
> > > > I generally share that opinion, but I will also add that anything at
> all
> > > is better than nothing.
> > > >
> > > > PRINCE
> > > >
> > > > The famous speaker who no one had heard of said:
> > > > > How so?  She can connect a device to her computer, and just like
> that
> > > the
> > > > > BIOS is accessible.  How is that the oposit of accessible?  That is
> the
> > > > > picture of accessible, as far as I can tell.
> > > > >
> > > > >  On Tue, 23 Dec 2003, Allan
> > > > > Shaw wrote:
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> > --
> > Always borrow money from a pessimist; he doesn't expect to be paid
> > back.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
Always borrow money from a pessimist; he doesn't expect to be paid
back.

Re: Talking bios

[Glenn Ervin at Home]

I think that every mother board has a plug for a PC speaker, and I wonder if
one could get a high quality speaker of the correct ohmage.  I think that PC
speakers use 4 ohms.
Glenn.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Garrett Klein" <kleins@iquest.net>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 5:54 PM
Subject: Re: Talking bios


Or, as in my case, some comps don't have a PC speaker at all.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Snow" <alex_snow@gmx.net>
To: "Sean McMahon" <smcmahon@usgs.gov>; "Speakup is a screen review system
for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 11:53 AM
Subject: Re: Talking bios


> that would depend on the speaker. some newer machines barely have a pc
> speaker so that would make speach unclear. some older machines I've
> seen have really good pc speakers. another idea would be to pipe the
> speaker through the onboard sound which most computers with onboard
> audio do or to put an external speaker jack for the internal speaker.
> On
> Tue, Dec 30, 2003 at 09:42:11AM -0700, Sean McMahon wrote:
> > That's a good point couldn't you make sound come out the pc speaker?
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Lorenzo Prince" <lorenzo@prince.homelinux.org>
> > To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
<speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 9:10 AM
> > Subject: Re: Talking bios
> >
> >
> > > I guess the issue some people have is that perfect accessibility can
only
> > be achieved by making the bios talk for itself
> > > instead of having to connect a very expensive device to it that can
cost
> > as much as the computer just to get it to talk.
> > > I generally share that opinion, but I will also add that anything at
all
> > is better than nothing.
> > >
> > > PRINCE
> > >
> > > The famous speaker who no one had heard of said:
> > > > How so?  She can connect a device to her computer, and just like
that
> > the
> > > > BIOS is accessible.  How is that the oposit of accessible?  That is
the
> > > > picture of accessible, as far as I can tell.
> > > >
> > > >  On Tue, 23 Dec 2003, Allan
> > > > Shaw wrote:
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> --
> Always borrow money from a pessimist; he doesn't expect to be paid
> back.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Talking bios

[Alex Snow]

You could also get a cable taht goes to your sound card. most cards 
I've seen have a plug for pc speaker on them.
On Tue, Dec 30, 2003 at 
06:39:35PM -0600, Glenn Ervin at Home wrote:
> I think that every mother board has a plug for a PC speaker, and I wonder if
> one could get a high quality speaker of the correct ohmage.  I think that PC
> speakers use 4 ohms.
> Glenn.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Garrett Klein" <kleins@iquest.net>
> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 5:54 PM
> Subject: Re: Talking bios
> 
> 
> Or, as in my case, some comps don't have a PC speaker at all.
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alex Snow" <alex_snow@gmx.net>
> To: "Sean McMahon" <smcmahon@usgs.gov>; "Speakup is a screen review system
> for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 11:53 AM
> Subject: Re: Talking bios
> 
> 
> > that would depend on the speaker. some newer machines barely have a pc
> > speaker so that would make speach unclear. some older machines I've
> > seen have really good pc speakers. another idea would be to pipe the
> > speaker through the onboard sound which most computers with onboard
> > audio do or to put an external speaker jack for the internal speaker.
> > On
> > Tue, Dec 30, 2003 at 09:42:11AM -0700, Sean McMahon wrote:
> > > That's a good point couldn't you make sound come out the pc speaker?
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Lorenzo Prince" <lorenzo@prince.homelinux.org>
> > > To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 9:10 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Talking bios
> > >
> > >
> > > > I guess the issue some people have is that perfect accessibility can
> only
> > > be achieved by making the bios talk for itself
> > > > instead of having to connect a very expensive device to it that can
> cost
> > > as much as the computer just to get it to talk.
> > > > I generally share that opinion, but I will also add that anything at
> all
> > > is better than nothing.
> > > >
> > > > PRINCE
> > > >
> > > > The famous speaker who no one had heard of said:
> > > > > How so?  She can connect a device to her computer, and just like
> that
> > > the
> > > > > BIOS is accessible.  How is that the oposit of accessible?  That is
> the
> > > > > picture of accessible, as far as I can tell.
> > > > >
> > > > >  On Tue, 23 Dec 2003, Allan
> > > > > Shaw wrote:
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> > --
> > Always borrow money from a pessimist; he doesn't expect to be paid
> > back.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
Always borrow money from a pessimist; he doesn't expect to be paid
back.

Re: Talking bios

[Maurice Mines]

hi it's Maurice please forgive me fore sending this in ms outlook but I am
on my laptop that doesn't have a searl port or cant get yasr running btw
phoenix is it seems only windows byoesess this days. hth.

Re: Talking bios

[Gregory Nowak]

I believe you're thinking of Award.

Greg



> ----- Original Message -----
>From: Scott Berry <n7zib@bresnan.net
>To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 09:44:54 -0700 (MST)
>Subject: Re: Talking bios

>Actually Pheonix and I can't think of the other company have joined
>forces.  So maybe if we hit both companies that would be good.

Re: Talking bios

[Scott Berry]

Yeah that is right.  Thanks for helping me out there.

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003,
Gregory Nowak wrote:

> I believe you're thinking of Award.
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >From: Scott Berry <n7zib@bresnan.net
> >To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 09:44:54 -0700 (MST)
> >Subject: Re: Talking bios
>
> >Actually Pheonix and I can't think of the other company have joined
> >forces.  So maybe if we hit both companies that would be good.
>
>
>

-- 
Scott Berry
Email: n7zib@bresnan.net

Re: Talking bios

[Gregory Nowak]

Can you clarify that? If you're thinking that the BIOS should be accessible through a sound card, then consider the following.

1. There are different companies today making different sound cards. How would the BIOS code know how to interface with a sound card in your system given this, assuming that the system in question had a sound card installed?

2. Consider how much ROM space a screen reader, a TTS engine, and all possible sound card drivers would take.

As for myself, I think that a serial accessible BIOS via terminal software is perfectly reasonable, and would welcome such a feature on the x86 architecture, especially given the fact that it would be better then what we have now, which is nothing.

Greg



> ----- Original Message -----
>From: Allan Shaw <technews@sympatico.ca
>To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 12:01:30 -0500
>Subject: Re: Talking bios


>... I wouldn't consider having to connect a Braille 'N Speak to your system
>a system with a perfectly accessible bios, in fact the exact opposit!

RE: Talking bios

[Dawes, Stephen]

Check-out the article entitled:
GRIDtoday: Linux NetworX Announces LinuxBIOS Availability
It can be found at:
http://www.gridtoday.com/02/0930/100480.html

Steve Dawes
Phone: (403) 268-5527
Email: SDawes@calgary.ca



NOTICE::
This communication is intended ONLY for the use of the person or entity named above and may contain information that is confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient named above or a person responsible for delivering messages or communications to the intended recipient, YOU ARE HEREBY NOTIFIED that any use, distribution, or copying of this communication or any of the information contained in it is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone and then destroy or delete this communication, or return it to us by mail if requested by us. The City of Calgary thanks you for your attention and cooperation.

RE: Talking bios

[Dawes, Stephen]

Here is another good read for those of you interested.
http://www.linuxbios.org/faq/index.html

Steve Dawes
Phone: (403) 268-5527
Email: SDawes@calgary.ca



NOTICE::
This communication is intended ONLY for the use of the person or entity named above and may contain information that is confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient named above or a person responsible for delivering messages or communications to the intended recipient, YOU ARE HEREBY NOTIFIED that any use, distribution, or copying of this communication or any of the information contained in it is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone and then destroy or delete this communication, or return it to us by mail if requested by us. The City of Calgary thanks you for your attention and cooperation.

Re: Talking bios

[Gregory Nowak]

I was thinking of getting one myself in the future. What is the best place to get one from, and what's a ballpark price for one?

Greg



> ----- Original Message -----
>From: Alex Snow <alex_snow@gmx.net
>To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 21:06:56 -0500
>Subject: Re: Talking bios

>you have a dec alpha? sweet!
>I'm thinking of grabbing one of those off of ebay or something. they
>seem like cool machines from what I've heard. and the bios is
>accessible?

Re: Talking bios

[Alex Snow]

anywhere that seels used and old comps like ebay or something should 
have them.
On Wed, Dec 24, 2003 at 12:13:15PM -0800, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> I was thinking of getting one myself in the future. What is the best place to get one from, and what's a ballpark price for one?
> 
> Greg
> 
> 
> 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >From: Alex Snow <alex_snow@gmx.net
> >To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 21:06:56 -0500
> >Subject: Re: Talking bios
> 
> >you have a dec alpha? sweet!
> >I'm thinking of grabbing one of those off of ebay or something. they
> >seem like cool machines from what I've heard. and the bios is
> >accessible?
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
Always borrow money from a pessimist; he doesn't expect to be paid
back.