Slackware is dropping Gnome

Slackware is dropping Gnome

[Adam Myrow]

This may be disturbing news to Slackware users interested in Gnopernicus. 
Slackware-current has dropped Gnome entirely.  From what I can tell, the 
reasoning is that it is too unstable.  Here is the entry from the 
Slackware-current ChangeLog.  For those that don't know, Slackware-current 
is basically the alpha/beta test directory for the next release of 
Slackware Linux.

gnome/*:  Removed from -current, and turned over to community support and 
distribution.  I'm not going to rehash all the reasons behind this, but 
it's been under consideration for more than four years.  There are already 
good projects in place to provide Slackware GNOME for those who want it, 
and these are more complete than what Slackware has shipped in the past. 
So, if you're looking for GNOME for Slackware -current, I would recommend 
looking at these two projects for well-built packages that follow a policy 
of minimal interference with the base Slackware system:

     http://gsb.sf.net
     http://gware.sf.net

There is also Dropline, of course, which is quite popular.  However, due 
to their policy of adding PAM and replacing large system packages (like 
the entire X11 system) with their own versions, I can't give quite the 
same sort of nod to Dropline.  Nevertheless, it remains another choice, 
and it's _your_ system, so I will also mention their project:

     http://www.dropline.net/gnome/

Please do not incorrectly interpret any of this as a slight against GNOME 
itself, which (although it does usually need to be fixed and polished 
beyond the way it ships from upstream more so than, say, KDE or XFce) is a 
decent desktop choice.  So are a lot of others, but Slackware does not 
need to ship every choice.  GNOME is and always has been a moving target 
(even the "stable" releases usually aren't quite ready yet) that really 
does demand a team to keep up on all the changes (many of which are not 
always well documented).  I fully expect that this move will improve the 
quality of both Slackware itself, and the quality (and quantity) of the 
GNOME options available for it.

Folks, this is how open source is supposed to work.  Enjoy.  :-)

Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome

[Gregory Nowak]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hmm, I suppose this could be an April fools joke, couldn't it? If it's
not, then they certainly picked an interesting date to announce this.

Greg


On Fri, Apr 01, 2005 at 09:09:30PM -0600, Adam Myrow wrote:
> This may be disturbing news to Slackware users interested in Gnopernicus. 
> Slackware-current has dropped Gnome entirely.  From what I can tell, the 
> reasoning is that it is too unstable.  Here is the entry from the 
> Slackware-current ChangeLog.  For those that don't know, Slackware-current 
> is basically the alpha/beta test directory for the next release of 
> Slackware Linux.
> 
> gnome/*:  Removed from -current, and turned over to community support and 
> distribution.  I'm not going to rehash all the reasons behind this, but 
> it's been under consideration for more than four years.  There are already 
> good projects in place to provide Slackware GNOME for those who want it, 
> and these are more complete than what Slackware has shipped in the past. 
> So, if you're looking for GNOME for Slackware -current, I would recommend 
> looking at these two projects for well-built packages that follow a policy 
> of minimal interference with the base Slackware system:
> 
>     http://gsb.sf.net
>     http://gware.sf.net
> 
> There is also Dropline, of course, which is quite popular.  However, due 
> to their policy of adding PAM and replacing large system packages (like 
> the entire X11 system) with their own versions, I can't give quite the 
> same sort of nod to Dropline.  Nevertheless, it remains another choice, 
> and it's _your_ system, so I will also mention their project:
> 
>     http://www.dropline.net/gnome/
> 
> Please do not incorrectly interpret any of this as a slight against GNOME 
> itself, which (although it does usually need to be fixed and polished 
> beyond the way it ships from upstream more so than, say, KDE or XFce) is a 
> decent desktop choice.  So are a lot of others, but Slackware does not 
> need to ship every choice.  GNOME is and always has been a moving target 
> (even the "stable" releases usually aren't quite ready yet) that really 
> does demand a team to keep up on all the changes (many of which are not 
> always well documented).  I fully expect that this move will improve the 
> quality of both Slackware itself, and the quality (and quantity) of the 
> GNOME options available for it.
> 
> Folks, this is how open source is supposed to work.  Enjoy.  :-)
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> !DSPAM:424e0d08275421023588577!
> 
> 

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Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome

[Adam Myrow]

On Fri, 1 Apr 2005, Gregory Nowak wrote:

> Hmm, I suppose this could be an April fools joke, couldn't it? If it's
> not, then they certainly picked an interesting date to announce this.

Actually, it was buried in with several other things dated 3/26/05, so I'd 
say it's no joke.  I guess when the next version of Slackware comes out, I 
will be trying to download one of those other Gnome packages.  Well, I 
haven't gotten Gnopernicus to work in Slackware 10.1 anyway, but I haven't 
really put much effort into it.

Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome

[Joseph C. Lininger]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Well, I maintain a mirror of slackware-current on my ftp server, and 
gnome has in fact been removed. I don't think they're joking folks.

Equal causes can produce very unequal effects.
Joseph C. Lininger
jbahm@pcdesk.net
Verification: 5eab38a77ac40416e075be8f50607ff7

And so it came to pass that on Fri, 1 Apr 2005, Adam Myrow said

> On Fri, 1 Apr 2005, Gregory Nowak wrote:
>
>>  Hmm, I suppose this could be an April fools joke, couldn't it? If it's
>>  not, then they certainly picked an interesting date to announce this.
>
> Actually, it was buried in with several other things dated 3/26/05, so I'd 
> say it's no joke.  I guess when the next version of Slackware comes out, I 
> will be trying to download one of those other Gnome packages.  Well, I 
> haven't gotten Gnopernicus to work in Slackware 10.1 anyway, but I haven't 
> really put much effort into it.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
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Re[2]: Slackware is dropping Gnome

[Farhan]

WHY WOULD THEY REMOVE GNOME? ITS ONE OF THE MOST USED DESKTOPS?
4/2/2005
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Well, I maintain a mirror of slackware-current on my ftp server, and 
gnome has in fact been removed. I don't think they're joking folks.

Equal causes can produce very unequal effects.
Joseph C. Lininger
jbahm@pcdesk.net
Verification: 5eab38a77ac40416e075be8f50607ff7

And so it came to pass that on Fri, 1 Apr 2005, Adam Myrow said

> On Fri, 1 Apr 2005, Gregory Nowak wrote:
>
>>  Hmm, I suppose this could be an April fools joke, couldn't it? If it's
>>  not, then they certainly picked an interesting date to announce this.
>
> Actually, it was buried in with several other things dated 3/26/05, so I'd 
> say it's no joke.  I guess when the next version of Slackware comes out, I 
> will be trying to download one of those other Gnome packages.  Well, I 
> haven't gotten Gnopernicus to work in Slackware 10.1 anyway, but I haven't 
> really put much effort into it.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
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_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
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Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome

[Kenny Hitt]

Hi.
Although the sighted community will be missing what seems to be a good
desktop, I don't think the blind community is missing much by not having
Gnome.

          Kenny

On Fri, Apr 01, 2005 at 11:00:29PM -0700, Joseph C. Lininger wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Well, I maintain a mirror of slackware-current on my ftp server, and 
> gnome has in fact been removed. I don't think they're joking folks.
> 
> Equal causes can produce very unequal effects.
> Joseph C. Lininger
> jbahm@pcdesk.net
> Verification: 5eab38a77ac40416e075be8f50607ff7
> 
> And so it came to pass that on Fri, 1 Apr 2005, Adam Myrow said
> 
> >On Fri, 1 Apr 2005, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> >
> >> Hmm, I suppose this could be an April fools joke, couldn't it? If it's
> >> not, then they certainly picked an interesting date to announce this.
> >
> >Actually, it was buried in with several other things dated 3/26/05, so I'd 
> >say it's no joke.  I guess when the next version of Slackware comes out, I 
> >will be trying to download one of those other Gnome packages.  Well, I 
> >haven't gotten Gnopernicus to work in Slackware 10.1 anyway, but I haven't 
> >really put much effort into it.
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)
> 
> iD8DBQFCTjUDJ6dqn0mqPbARAt9qAJ9YPW2pYV3rHUYcyWCWCcr3zEoHqQCg8gM4
> BuJPmk+HUGixG9XFkMXZK5E=
> =yVUL
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

RE: Slackware is dropping Gnome

[Chris Hofstader]

I've been doing a lot of research on open source musical tools (sequencers,
synthesizers, mixers, etc.), a number are available in a text-only
configuration but quite a few require gnome.  I have been thinking of
converting some of the gnome music tools that I want to use into self
voicing applications.  I can hear Peter Korn screaming that I should do it
properly and add the gnome accessibility API to these programs but, alas, no
matter how loud I yelled or hard I pounded the table, the gnome API has no
realistic sense of relationship between objects and, for programs as complex
as these, it is not sufficient to deliver the rich contextual information
required to use such tools.  Other parts of gnome will, however, be
necessary as I do not want to get into an entire rewrite of these apps
either.  So, I find value in gnome just because I don't like unresolved
externals.

I'm a firm believer in screen readers and avoiding self voicing, blind guy
ghetto, programs that segregate us from everyone else but, in this case, I'm
choosing expediency over philosophy.

 


-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of Kenny Hitt
Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 8:15 AM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome

Hi.
Although the sighted community will be missing what seems to be a good
desktop, I don't think the blind community is missing much by not having
Gnome.

          Kenny

On Fri, Apr 01, 2005 at 11:00:29PM -0700, Joseph C. Lininger wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Well, I maintain a mirror of slackware-current on my ftp server, and 
> gnome has in fact been removed. I don't think they're joking folks.
> 
> Equal causes can produce very unequal effects.
> Joseph C. Lininger
> jbahm@pcdesk.net
> Verification: 5eab38a77ac40416e075be8f50607ff7
> 
> And so it came to pass that on Fri, 1 Apr 2005, Adam Myrow said
> 
> >On Fri, 1 Apr 2005, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> >
> >> Hmm, I suppose this could be an April fools joke, couldn't it? If it's
> >> not, then they certainly picked an interesting date to announce this.
> >
> >Actually, it was buried in with several other things dated 3/26/05, so
I'd 
> >say it's no joke.  I guess when the next version of Slackware comes out,
I 
> >will be trying to download one of those other Gnome packages.  Well, I 
> >haven't gotten Gnopernicus to work in Slackware 10.1 anyway, but I
haven't 
> >really put much effort into it.
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)
> 
> iD8DBQFCTjUDJ6dqn0mqPbARAt9qAJ9YPW2pYV3rHUYcyWCWCcr3zEoHqQCg8gM4
> BuJPmk+HUGixG9XFkMXZK5E=
> =yVUL
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome

[Kenny Hitt]

Hi.  You posted this to the wrong list.  You should post things like
this to the gnome-accessibility-list or the gnome-accessibility-devel
lists.

I can say for sure that Peter Korn doesn't read this list.

I believe most of the long time people on this list consider Gnome 
accessibility and Gnopernicus to be the Freedom Science Fiction of the
Linux world.

          Kenny

On Sat, Apr 02, 2005 at 09:02:55AM -0500, Chris Hofstader wrote:
> I've been doing a lot of research on open source musical tools (sequencers,
> synthesizers, mixers, etc.), a number are available in a text-only
> configuration but quite a few require gnome.  I have been thinking of
> converting some of the gnome music tools that I want to use into self
> voicing applications.  I can hear Peter Korn screaming that I should do it
> properly and add the gnome accessibility API to these programs but, alas, no
> matter how loud I yelled or hard I pounded the table, the gnome API has no
> realistic sense of relationship between objects and, for programs as complex
> as these, it is not sufficient to deliver the rich contextual information
> required to use such tools.  Other parts of gnome will, however, be
> necessary as I do not want to get into an entire rewrite of these apps
> either.  So, I find value in gnome just because I don't like unresolved
> externals.
> 
> I'm a firm believer in screen readers and avoiding self voicing, blind guy
> ghetto, programs that segregate us from everyone else but, in this case, I'm
> choosing expediency over philosophy.
> 
>  
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
> On Behalf Of Kenny Hitt
> Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 8:15 AM
> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> Subject: Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome
> 
> Hi.
> Although the sighted community will be missing what seems to be a good
> desktop, I don't think the blind community is missing much by not having
> Gnome.
> 
>           Kenny
> 
> On Fri, Apr 01, 2005 at 11:00:29PM -0700, Joseph C. Lininger wrote:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> > 
> > Well, I maintain a mirror of slackware-current on my ftp server, and 
> > gnome has in fact been removed. I don't think they're joking folks.
> > 
> > Equal causes can produce very unequal effects.
> > Joseph C. Lininger
> > jbahm@pcdesk.net
> > Verification: 5eab38a77ac40416e075be8f50607ff7
> > 
> > And so it came to pass that on Fri, 1 Apr 2005, Adam Myrow said
> > 
> > >On Fri, 1 Apr 2005, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hmm, I suppose this could be an April fools joke, couldn't it? If it's
> > >> not, then they certainly picked an interesting date to announce this.
> > >
> > >Actually, it was buried in with several other things dated 3/26/05, so
> I'd 
> > >say it's no joke.  I guess when the next version of Slackware comes out,
> I 
> > >will be trying to download one of those other Gnome packages.  Well, I 
> > >haven't gotten Gnopernicus to work in Slackware 10.1 anyway, but I
> haven't 
> > >really put much effort into it.
> > >
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Speakup mailing list
> > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)
> > 
> > iD8DBQFCTjUDJ6dqn0mqPbARAt9qAJ9YPW2pYV3rHUYcyWCWCcr3zEoHqQCg8gM4
> > BuJPmk+HUGixG9XFkMXZK5E=
> > =yVUL
> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

RE: Slackware is dropping Gnome

[Chris Hofstader]

I was merely stating that gnome has some useful programs written for it that
can be made accessible with a bit of effort.  I don't mean to bash Peter,
he's a decent guy trying to do his best.

BTW:  I resigned my position at Freedom and am now working as a free agent
and focusing on UI research.   

-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of Kenny Hitt
Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 9:24 AM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome

Hi.  You posted this to the wrong list.  You should post things like
this to the gnome-accessibility-list or the gnome-accessibility-devel
lists.

I can say for sure that Peter Korn doesn't read this list.

I believe most of the long time people on this list consider Gnome 
accessibility and Gnopernicus to be the Freedom Science Fiction of the
Linux world.

          Kenny

On Sat, Apr 02, 2005 at 09:02:55AM -0500, Chris Hofstader wrote:
> I've been doing a lot of research on open source musical tools
(sequencers,
> synthesizers, mixers, etc.), a number are available in a text-only
> configuration but quite a few require gnome.  I have been thinking of
> converting some of the gnome music tools that I want to use into self
> voicing applications.  I can hear Peter Korn screaming that I should do it
> properly and add the gnome accessibility API to these programs but, alas,
no
> matter how loud I yelled or hard I pounded the table, the gnome API has no
> realistic sense of relationship between objects and, for programs as
complex
> as these, it is not sufficient to deliver the rich contextual information
> required to use such tools.  Other parts of gnome will, however, be
> necessary as I do not want to get into an entire rewrite of these apps
> either.  So, I find value in gnome just because I don't like unresolved
> externals.
> 
> I'm a firm believer in screen readers and avoiding self voicing, blind guy
> ghetto, programs that segregate us from everyone else but, in this case,
I'm
> choosing expediency over philosophy.
> 
>  
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca
[mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
> On Behalf Of Kenny Hitt
> Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 8:15 AM
> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
> Subject: Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome
> 
> Hi.
> Although the sighted community will be missing what seems to be a good
> desktop, I don't think the blind community is missing much by not having
> Gnome.
> 
>           Kenny
> 
> On Fri, Apr 01, 2005 at 11:00:29PM -0700, Joseph C. Lininger wrote:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> > 
> > Well, I maintain a mirror of slackware-current on my ftp server, and 
> > gnome has in fact been removed. I don't think they're joking folks.
> > 
> > Equal causes can produce very unequal effects.
> > Joseph C. Lininger
> > jbahm@pcdesk.net
> > Verification: 5eab38a77ac40416e075be8f50607ff7
> > 
> > And so it came to pass that on Fri, 1 Apr 2005, Adam Myrow said
> > 
> > >On Fri, 1 Apr 2005, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hmm, I suppose this could be an April fools joke, couldn't it? If
it's
> > >> not, then they certainly picked an interesting date to announce this.
> > >
> > >Actually, it was buried in with several other things dated 3/26/05, so
> I'd 
> > >say it's no joke.  I guess when the next version of Slackware comes
out,
> I 
> > >will be trying to download one of those other Gnome packages.  Well, I 
> > >haven't gotten Gnopernicus to work in Slackware 10.1 anyway, but I
> haven't 
> > >really put much effort into it.
> > >
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Speakup mailing list
> > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)
> > 
> > iD8DBQFCTjUDJ6dqn0mqPbARAt9qAJ9YPW2pYV3rHUYcyWCWCcr3zEoHqQCg8gM4
> > BuJPmk+HUGixG9XFkMXZK5E=
> > =yVUL
> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

_______________________________________________
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Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome

[Kenny Hitt]

Hi.  Excuse the quotes.  I forgot to delete, so I had to reply to
myself.

          Kenny

On Sat, Apr 02, 2005 at 09:54:16AM -0600, kenny wrote:
> Hi.
> 
> If you check back through the gnome list archives, you will notice I'm
> the last one who could criticize anyone for bashing Peter.
> 
> I agree with you that both Peter and Bill are doing there best.  Neither
> has control over Gnopernicus.
> 
> After using Gnome for 2 years now, I am coming to believe it's biggest
> accessibility problem is Gnopernicus and not the Gnome accessibility
> support.
> 
> I admit part of my attitude is coming from finally getting a braille
> display to work with Gnopernicus only to discover it isn't much use and
> there doesn't seem to be much I can do about it.  It almost seems as if
> I'm the first person to use Gnopernicus and brlapi.  I know that can't
> be true.
> 
>           Kenny
> 	  
> On Sat, Apr 02, 2005 at 09:51:46AM -0500, Chris Hofstader wrote:
> > I was merely stating that gnome has some useful programs written for it that
> > can be made accessible with a bit of effort.  I don't mean to bash Peter,
> > he's a decent guy trying to do his best.
> > 
> > BTW:  I resigned my position at Freedom and am now working as a free agent
> > and focusing on UI research.   
> > 

Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome

[Adam Myrow]

On Sat, 2 Apr 2005, Kenny Hitt wrote:

> Hi.  You posted this to the wrong list.  You should post things like
> this to the gnome-accessibility-list or the gnome-accessibility-devel
> lists.

I tried to post it to both lists, but even though I'm on the Gnome 
Accessibility list, it didn't show up for whatever reason.  I thought I 
put both addresses in, but maybe they block cross-posting.  I tend to 
agree that Gnopernicus is a joke, but still, how can it be improved if 
major Linux distributions are pulling it?  Sure, you can get Gnome 
yourself, but it's a huge package.

Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome

[Kenny Hitt]

Hi.

You should have been able to send to both lists.

The Gnome accessibility developers still say you should build from 
CVS, so not having it in a distro could actually help.

After all, you won't have to worry about having a distro's package
installed.


BTW, the fact Gene and I were having a debate on whether elinks 0.10 or
links 2.1 has the best javascript support on the reflector yesterday
means the need for Mozilla is declining.  

Hope this helps.
          Kenny
	  
On Sat, Apr 02, 2005 at 11:25:32AM -0600, Adam Myrow wrote:
> On Sat, 2 Apr 2005, Kenny Hitt wrote:
> 
> >Hi.  You posted this to the wrong list.  You should post things like
> >this to the gnome-accessibility-list or the gnome-accessibility-devel
> >lists.
> 
> I tried to post it to both lists, but even though I'm on the Gnome 
> Accessibility list, it didn't show up for whatever reason.  I thought I 
> put both addresses in, but maybe they block cross-posting.  I tend to 
> agree that Gnopernicus is a joke, but still, how can it be improved if 
> major Linux distributions are pulling it?  Sure, you can get Gnome 
> yourself, but it's a huge package.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome

[Gregory Nowak]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

What about if someone doesn't feel like fetching everything from cvs,
and building the whole thing from source, but would prefer a
package. Just because the developers say that building from cvs is the
best way to go, doesn't mean that everyone would like to do so.

Greg


On Sat, Apr 02, 2005 at 12:14:44PM -0600, Kenny Hitt wrote:
> Hi.
> 
> You should have been able to send to both lists.
> 
> The Gnome accessibility developers still say you should build from 
> CVS, so not having it in a distro could actually help.
> 
> After all, you won't have to worry about having a distro's package
> installed.
> 
> 
> BTW, the fact Gene and I were having a debate on whether elinks 0.10 or
> links 2.1 has the best javascript support on the reflector yesterday
> means the need for Mozilla is declining.  
> 
> Hope this helps.
>           Kenny
> 	  

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VHhF/XI0qDwKd8J/NFLjhBY=
=iCoR
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome

[Janina Sajka]

Come on, you guys. You have options and you know it.

Except that the "leave Slackware for another distro" option seems to be
off the table.

<ducking around the corner and hiding in the corn crib>

Gregory Nowak writes:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> What about if someone doesn't feel like fetching everything from cvs,
> and building the whole thing from source, but would prefer a
> package. Just because the developers say that building from cvs is the
> best way to go, doesn't mean that everyone would like to do so.

Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome

[Kenny Hitt]

Hi.

I agree with you.  My Gnome is mostly Debian packages.  
Unfortunately, I have some problems that are probably Debian specific.
Because I didn't build from "official CVS sources", I'm on my on 
to figure them out and fix them.

My biggest example is the help system crashing.  When it crashes, I am
forced to either ssh into the box from another system and start killing
processes or hard boot the box with the crashed Gnome.  If the problem
was general, Debian would fix it.  But it only happens with Gnopernicus
and accessibility.  My sighted girl friend keeps the same version of
Gnome open for months at a time without the crash.
I suspect it is caused by a Debian patch to a lib,
but I don't know for sure.  It isn't easy to start replacing library
packages in Debian because of how Debian packages them.  Also, I don't
get any useful error messages so I don't know for sure what lib to
replace.

Hope this helps.
          Kenny
	  
On Sat, Apr 02, 2005 at 12:39:00PM -0600, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> What about if someone doesn't feel like fetching everything from cvs,
> and building the whole thing from source, but would prefer a
> package. Just because the developers say that building from cvs is the
> best way to go, doesn't mean that everyone would like to do so.
> 
> Greg
> 
> 

RE: Slackware is dropping Gnome

[jim grimsby]

Well dave has been complaining about this for quite some time.  At first
his problem was not clear because he was doing a lot of talking about
software speech and a radio show but the problem is clear.  Kde is
coming out with a screen reader for it soon according to peater.  He
said it was hopeful.  Mark has created an alternative to gnopernicus
witch I have not herd a lot about yet. It seems to me at this point
after doing a lot of reading that the gui support has a long way to go.
The nice thing is with speakup we can do every thing we would need to do
in text mode.  The reality is though that we really need this gui
support.  There are a lot of programs that are created using this gui
interface.  Also gui is easier for the new user to learn. Monkey see
monkey do is always going to be easier then typing a lot of commands at
a command line.  I got in to linux hoping I could start building
computers for blind people with a easy to use interface that would be
the same across the board from program to program.  Sorry to say I have
not found this yet.  Gnome still has to many problems to be a stable
solution. Gnopernicus crashes more often then jaws does at this point.
I my self am going to keep a close eyes on this situation as I get text
based programs for my self learn it and then try to teach my very non
technical girl friend linux.  If she is able to grasp it using text mode
there might be some hope for this project but if not I might need to
wait another year or two.  


-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca
[mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca] On Behalf Of Kenny Hitt
Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 7:59 AM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome


Hi.  Excuse the quotes.  I forgot to delete, so I had to reply to
myself.

          Kenny

On Sat, Apr 02, 2005 at 09:54:16AM -0600, kenny wrote:
> Hi.
> 
> If you check back through the gnome list archives, you will notice I'm

> the last one who could criticize anyone for bashing Peter.
> 
> I agree with you that both Peter and Bill are doing there best.  
> Neither has control over Gnopernicus.
> 
> After using Gnome for 2 years now, I am coming to believe it's biggest

> accessibility problem is Gnopernicus and not the Gnome accessibility 
> support.
> 
> I admit part of my attitude is coming from finally getting a braille 
> display to work with Gnopernicus only to discover it isn't much use 
> and there doesn't seem to be much I can do about it.  It almost seems 
> as if I'm the first person to use Gnopernicus and brlapi.  I know that

> can't be true.
> 
>           Kenny
> 	  
> On Sat, Apr 02, 2005 at 09:51:46AM -0500, Chris Hofstader wrote:
> > I was merely stating that gnome has some useful programs written for

> > it that can be made accessible with a bit of effort.  I don't mean 
> > to bash Peter, he's a decent guy trying to do his best.
> > 
> > BTW:  I resigned my position at Freedom and am now working as a free
agent
> > and focusing on UI research.   
> > 

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome

[hank smith]

can I find out more about the alternitive to gnopernicus that mark has 
created?
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "jim grimsby" <jimgrims@pacbell.net>
To: "'Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.'" 
<speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 1:24 PM
Subject: RE: Slackware is dropping Gnome


Well dave has been complaining about this for quite some time.  At first
his problem was not clear because he was doing a lot of talking about
software speech and a radio show but the problem is clear.  Kde is
coming out with a screen reader for it soon according to peater.  He
said it was hopeful.  Mark has created an alternative to gnopernicus
witch I have not herd a lot about yet. It seems to me at this point
after doing a lot of reading that the gui support has a long way to go.
The nice thing is with speakup we can do every thing we would need to do
in text mode.  The reality is though that we really need this gui
support.  There are a lot of programs that are created using this gui
interface.  Also gui is easier for the new user to learn. Monkey see
monkey do is always going to be easier then typing a lot of commands at
a command line.  I got in to linux hoping I could start building
computers for blind people with a easy to use interface that would be
the same across the board from program to program.  Sorry to say I have
not found this yet.  Gnome still has to many problems to be a stable
solution. Gnopernicus crashes more often then jaws does at this point.
I my self am going to keep a close eyes on this situation as I get text
based programs for my self learn it and then try to teach my very non
technical girl friend linux.  If she is able to grasp it using text mode
there might be some hope for this project but if not I might need to
wait another year or two.


-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca
[mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca] On Behalf Of Kenny Hitt
Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 7:59 AM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome


Hi.  Excuse the quotes.  I forgot to delete, so I had to reply to
myself.

          Kenny

On Sat, Apr 02, 2005 at 09:54:16AM -0600, kenny wrote:
> Hi.
>
> If you check back through the gnome list archives, you will notice I'm

> the last one who could criticize anyone for bashing Peter.
>
> I agree with you that both Peter and Bill are doing there best.
> Neither has control over Gnopernicus.
>
> After using Gnome for 2 years now, I am coming to believe it's biggest

> accessibility problem is Gnopernicus and not the Gnome accessibility
> support.
>
> I admit part of my attitude is coming from finally getting a braille
> display to work with Gnopernicus only to discover it isn't much use
> and there doesn't seem to be much I can do about it.  It almost seems
> as if I'm the first person to use Gnopernicus and brlapi.  I know that

> can't be true.
>
>           Kenny
>
> On Sat, Apr 02, 2005 at 09:51:46AM -0500, Chris Hofstader wrote:
> > I was merely stating that gnome has some useful programs written for

> > it that can be made accessible with a bit of effort.  I don't mean
> > to bash Peter, he's a decent guy trying to do his best.
> >
> > BTW:  I resigned my position at Freedom and am now working as a free
agent
> > and focusing on UI research.
> >

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup



_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 

Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome

[Kenny Hitt]

Hi.

The KDE screen reader won't happen soon because the basic libs for KDE are
still being rewritten.  Once that happens, a screen reader like
Gnopernicus should be able to work with it with few changes.  KDE is
using AT-SPI same as Gnome.

Mark wrote Orca as an alternative to Gnopernicus, but he no longer works
for Sun and I haven't seen any updates to it's CVS since July.
It seems development of GUI access is happening much slower than console
access.  My personal view is this is happening because the developers of
GUI access don't depend on it to use there computers while the
developers of console access do.

My girl friend is also non technical, so she only uses Linux in Gnome.
She wouldn't even consider trying to use a command line.  One of the
cool things about the GUI interface in Linux is you don't really need
access to support it.  Mary Ann started using Gnome 1.4 which had no
access for me.  I read docs and edited Gnome's config files in the
console.
If your girl friend is sighted, she will have no problems with using
Gnome.  If she's used Windows, she will like the improvements.

Hope this helps.
          Kenny
	  
On Sat, Apr 02, 2005 at 01:24:23PM -0800, jim grimsby wrote:
> Well dave has been complaining about this for quite some time.  At first
> his problem was not clear because he was doing a lot of talking about
> software speech and a radio show but the problem is clear.  Kde is
> coming out with a screen reader for it soon according to peater.  He
> said it was hopeful.  Mark has created an alternative to gnopernicus
> witch I have not herd a lot about yet. It seems to me at this point
> after doing a lot of reading that the gui support has a long way to go.
> The nice thing is with speakup we can do every thing we would need to do
> in text mode.  The reality is though that we really need this gui
> support.  There are a lot of programs that are created using this gui
> interface.  Also gui is easier for the new user to learn. Monkey see
> monkey do is always going to be easier then typing a lot of commands at
> a command line.  I got in to linux hoping I could start building
> computers for blind people with a easy to use interface that would be
> the same across the board from program to program.  Sorry to say I have
> not found this yet.  Gnome still has to many problems to be a stable
> solution. Gnopernicus crashes more often then jaws does at this point.
> I my self am going to keep a close eyes on this situation as I get text
> based programs for my self learn it and then try to teach my very non
> technical girl friend linux.  If she is able to grasp it using text mode
> there might be some hope for this project but if not I might need to
> wait another year or two.  
> 
> 

Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome

[Steve Holmes]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: RIPEMD160

On Sat, Apr 02, 2005 at 12:14:44PM -0600, Kenny Hitt wrote:
> Hi.
> ...
> 
> BTW, the fact Gene and I were having a debate on whether elinks 0.10 or
> links 2.1 has the best javascript support on the reflector yesterday
> means the need for Mozilla is declining.  

Wow, you mean that's the best Java support we can expect.  Quite
frankly, the javascript support I've seen in links 2.1 is down right
lousy! Most things I've tried including phpPGadmin, a web based
database manager, are completely unusable in links.  I haven't gotten
around to trying elinks yet because I have to go and install the Java
developer kit or somesuch in order to install elinks if I recall.  I
really had my hopes up about using Gnopernicus and mozilla.  I still
end up going over to windows quite often to use those websites that
have java all over the place.

- -- 
HolmesGrown Solutions
The best solutions for the best price!
http://ld.net/?holmesgrown
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links 2.1 and elinks was Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome

[Kenny Hitt]

Hi.
	  
On Sat, Apr 02, 2005 at 08:27:39PM -0700, Steve Holmes wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 02, 2005 at 12:14:44PM -0600, Kenny Hitt wrote:
> > Hi.
> > ...
> > 
> > BTW, the fact Gene and I were having a debate on whether elinks 0.10 or
> > links 2.1 has the best javascript support on the reflector yesterday
> > means the need for Mozilla is declining.  
> 
> Wow, you mean that's the best Java support we can expect.  Quite
> frankly, the javascript support I've seen in links 2.1 is down right
> lousy! Most things I've tried including phpPGadmin, a web based
> database manager, are completely unusable in links.  I haven't gotten
> around to trying elinks yet because I have to go and install the Java
> developer kit or somesuch in order to install elinks if I recall.  I
> really had my hopes up about using Gnopernicus and mozilla.  I still
> end up going over to windows quite often to use those websites that
> have java all over the place.
> 
> -- 

What version of linkx 2.1 are you using?  It's up to pre 17 now.

Elinks is a C program and doesn't use any java.  It does use
spidermonkey which is Mozilla's javascript inturpreter, but that's a C
program.  I personally don't know of any console browser that needs
Java.

Hope this helps.
          Kenny

RE: Slackware is dropping Gnome

[jim grimsby]

If your girl friend is sighted,
Well she is not <smile> 

Re: links 2.1 and elinks was Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome

[Trevor Astrope]

The question I have is can either of these browsers work with online 
banking sites?

None of the online banking sites in Canada that I've tried with elinks are 
accessible. This is with elinks 0.9.2 that ships with FC3.


Thanks,

Trevor

Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome

[Gregory Nowak]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

You seem to be mixing and interchangeably using java and java script. Don't, they're not the
same thing. The only thing they have in common is their names, that's
it.

Greg


On Sat, Apr 02, 2005 at 08:27:39PM -0700, Steve Holmes wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 02, 2005 at 12:14:44PM -0600, Kenny Hitt wrote:
> > Hi.
> > ...
> > 
> > BTW, the fact Gene and I were having a debate on whether elinks 0.10 or
> > links 2.1 has the best javascript support on the reflector yesterday
> > means the need for Mozilla is declining.  
> 
> Wow, you mean that's the best Java support we can expect.  Quite
> frankly, the javascript support I've seen in links 2.1 is down right
> lousy! Most things I've tried including phpPGadmin, a web based
> database manager, are completely unusable in links.  I haven't gotten
> around to trying elinks yet because I have to go and install the Java
> developer kit or somesuch in order to install elinks if I recall.  I
> really had my hopes up about using Gnopernicus and mozilla.  I still
> end up going over to windows quite often to use those websites that
> have java all over the place.
> 
> -- 
> HolmesGrown Solutions
> The best solutions for the best price!
> http://ld.net/?holmesgrown
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> !DSPAM:424f62d947621265111093!
> 
> 

- -- 
web site: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org
gpg public key: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org/pubkey.asc
skype: gregn1
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Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome

[Laura Eaves]

Hi -- I actually disagree as there are many blind users of windows who use 
the MS Office apps heavily, by necessity, who would benefit greatly from 
gnome based versions of these apps -- or at least gnome versions that can 
process the same file formats so that the documents are portable.
Also, a lot has been done with blind access to UML diagrams and such used in 
OO programming, and it would be nice if these types of tools were available 
on linux/unix for used by a workplace with mixed blind and sighted 
employees.
Anyway before I get in too deeply, I have not yet tried gnome or 
gnopernicus.  And the culture of the speakup list is to go text instead of 
graphical, but since I spent so amny years resisting that awful monster 
windows from invading my space only to switch to jaws/window yes and windows 
when I lost my vision finally, I do think the work on gnome is a good thing, 
not to replace speakup but to have that in the works for handling new 
advances as they come out, even if the interface is graphical.
Off box...*smile*


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kenny Hitt" <kenny@hittsjunk.net>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome


Hi.
Although the sighted community will be missing what seems to be a good
desktop, I don't think the blind community is missing much by not having
Gnome.

          Kenny

On Fri, Apr 01, 2005 at 11:00:29PM -0700, Joseph C. Lininger wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Well, I maintain a mirror of slackware-current on my ftp server, and
> gnome has in fact been removed. I don't think they're joking folks.
>
> Equal causes can produce very unequal effects.
> Joseph C. Lininger
> jbahm@pcdesk.net
> Verification: 5eab38a77ac40416e075be8f50607ff7
>
> And so it came to pass that on Fri, 1 Apr 2005, Adam Myrow said
>
> >On Fri, 1 Apr 2005, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> >
> >> Hmm, I suppose this could be an April fools joke, couldn't it? If it's
> >> not, then they certainly picked an interesting date to announce this.
> >
> >Actually, it was buried in with several other things dated 3/26/05, so 
> >I'd
> >say it's no joke.  I guess when the next version of Slackware comes out, 
> >I
> >will be trying to download one of those other Gnome packages.  Well, I
> >haven't gotten Gnopernicus to work in Slackware 10.1 anyway, but I 
> >haven't
> >really put much effort into it.
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)
>
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> BuJPmk+HUGixG9XFkMXZK5E=
> =yVUL
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 

Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome

[Ned]

Hi,
"... Also, a lot has been done with blind access to UML diagrams and such 
used in OO programming, and it would be nice if these types of tools were 
available ..."

Actually, I am looking for some. Can you mention some of them?

Many thanks!
Ned

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Laura Eaves" <leaves1@carolina.rr.com>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 6:47 PM
Subject: Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome


> Hi -- I actually disagree as there are many blind users of windows who use
> the MS Office apps heavily, by necessity, who would benefit greatly from
> gnome based versions of these apps -- or at least gnome versions that can
> process the same file formats so that the documents are portable.
> Also, a lot has been done with blind access to UML diagrams and such used 
> in
> OO programming, and it would be nice if these types of tools were 
> available
> on linux/unix for used by a workplace with mixed blind and sighted
> employees.
> Anyway before I get in too deeply, I have not yet tried gnome or
> gnopernicus.  And the culture of the speakup list is to go text instead of
> graphical, but since I spent so amny years resisting that awful monster
> windows from invading my space only to switch to jaws/window yes and 
> windows
> when I lost my vision finally, I do think the work on gnome is a good 
> thing,
> not to replace speakup but to have that in the works for handling new
> advances as they come out, even if the interface is graphical.
> Off box...*smile*
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Kenny Hitt" <kenny@hittsjunk.net>
> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." 
> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 9:15 AM
> Subject: Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome
>
>
> Hi.
> Although the sighted community will be missing what seems to be a good
> desktop, I don't think the blind community is missing much by not having
> Gnome.
>
>          Kenny
>
> On Fri, Apr 01, 2005 at 11:00:29PM -0700, Joseph C. Lininger wrote:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Well, I maintain a mirror of slackware-current on my ftp server, and
>> gnome has in fact been removed. I don't think they're joking folks.
>>
>> Equal causes can produce very unequal effects.
>> Joseph C. Lininger
>> jbahm@pcdesk.net
>> Verification: 5eab38a77ac40416e075be8f50607ff7
>>
>> And so it came to pass that on Fri, 1 Apr 2005, Adam Myrow said
>>
>> >On Fri, 1 Apr 2005, Gregory Nowak wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hmm, I suppose this could be an April fools joke, couldn't it? If it's
>> >> not, then they certainly picked an interesting date to announce this.
>> >
>> >Actually, it was buried in with several other things dated 3/26/05, so
>> >I'd
>> >say it's no joke.  I guess when the next version of Slackware comes out,
>> >I
>> >will be trying to download one of those other Gnome packages.  Well, I
>> >haven't gotten Gnopernicus to work in Slackware 10.1 anyway, but I
>> >haven't
>> >really put much effort into it.
>> >
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Speakup mailing list
>> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> >
>> >
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>> Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)
>>
>> iD8DBQFCTjUDJ6dqn0mqPbARAt9qAJ9YPW2pYV3rHUYcyWCWCcr3zEoHqQCg8gM4
>> BuJPmk+HUGixG9XFkMXZK5E=
>> =yVUL
>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 

Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome

[Laura Eaves]

Well for one, the TeDUB project www.tedub.org
and also I believe M$ is working on something for VISIO
No knowledge on details of the latter however

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ned" <ngranic@cox.net>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 9:54 PM
Subject: Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome


Hi,
"... Also, a lot has been done with blind access to UML diagrams and such
used in OO programming, and it would be nice if these types of tools were
available ..."

Actually, I am looking for some. Can you mention some of them?

Many thanks!
Ned

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Laura Eaves" <leaves1@carolina.rr.com>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 6:47 PM
Subject: Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome


> Hi -- I actually disagree as there are many blind users of windows who use
> the MS Office apps heavily, by necessity, who would benefit greatly from
> gnome based versions of these apps -- or at least gnome versions that can
> process the same file formats so that the documents are portable.
> Also, a lot has been done with blind access to UML diagrams and such used
> in
> OO programming, and it would be nice if these types of tools were
> available
> on linux/unix for used by a workplace with mixed blind and sighted
> employees.
> Anyway before I get in too deeply, I have not yet tried gnome or
> gnopernicus.  And the culture of the speakup list is to go text instead of
> graphical, but since I spent so amny years resisting that awful monster
> windows from invading my space only to switch to jaws/window yes and
> windows
> when I lost my vision finally, I do think the work on gnome is a good
> thing,
> not to replace speakup but to have that in the works for handling new
> advances as they come out, even if the interface is graphical.
> Off box...*smile*
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Kenny Hitt" <kenny@hittsjunk.net>
> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux."
> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 9:15 AM
> Subject: Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome
>
>
> Hi.
> Although the sighted community will be missing what seems to be a good
> desktop, I don't think the blind community is missing much by not having
> Gnome.
>
>          Kenny
>
> On Fri, Apr 01, 2005 at 11:00:29PM -0700, Joseph C. Lininger wrote:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Well, I maintain a mirror of slackware-current on my ftp server, and
>> gnome has in fact been removed. I don't think they're joking folks.
>>
>> Equal causes can produce very unequal effects.
>> Joseph C. Lininger
>> jbahm@pcdesk.net
>> Verification: 5eab38a77ac40416e075be8f50607ff7
>>
>> And so it came to pass that on Fri, 1 Apr 2005, Adam Myrow said
>>
>> >On Fri, 1 Apr 2005, Gregory Nowak wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hmm, I suppose this could be an April fools joke, couldn't it? If it's
>> >> not, then they certainly picked an interesting date to announce this.
>> >
>> >Actually, it was buried in with several other things dated 3/26/05, so
>> >I'd
>> >say it's no joke.  I guess when the next version of Slackware comes out,
>> >I
>> >will be trying to download one of those other Gnome packages.  Well, I
>> >haven't gotten Gnopernicus to work in Slackware 10.1 anyway, but I
>> >haven't
>> >really put much effort into it.
>> >
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Speakup mailing list
>> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>> >
>> >
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>> Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)
>>
>> iD8DBQFCTjUDJ6dqn0mqPbARAt9qAJ9YPW2pYV3rHUYcyWCWCcr3zEoHqQCg8gM4
>> BuJPmk+HUGixG9XFkMXZK5E=
>> =yVUL
>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 

Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome

[Kenny Hitt]

Hi.

My message was sent after my latest frustration with Gnome
accessibility. I've been attempting to use Gnome for 2 years, and it's
still got a ways to go.  I'm not against a blind person using a GUI, I'm
just frustrated with the access available and the progress of that
access.

If you want, I'll be glad to help you get Gnopernicus up and running,
but be prepared for disappointment.  Before you try Gnopernicus, you
will need access to the text console or you will have real problems.

Hope this helps.
           Kenny
	   

On Sun, Apr 03, 2005 at 09:47:52PM -0400, Laura Eaves wrote:
> Hi -- I actually disagree as there are many blind users of windows who use 
> the MS Office apps heavily, by necessity, who would benefit greatly from 
> gnome based versions of these apps -- or at least gnome versions that can 
> process the same file formats so that the documents are portable.
> Also, a lot has been done with blind access to UML diagrams and such used in 
> OO programming, and it would be nice if these types of tools were available 
> on linux/unix for used by a workplace with mixed blind and sighted 
> employees.
> Anyway before I get in too deeply, I have not yet tried gnome or 
> gnopernicus.  And the culture of the speakup list is to go text instead of 
> graphical, but since I spent so amny years resisting that awful monster 
> windows from invading my space only to switch to jaws/window yes and windows 
> when I lost my vision finally, I do think the work on gnome is a good thing, 
> not to replace speakup but to have that in the works for handling new 
> advances as they come out, even if the interface is graphical.
> Off box...*smile*
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Kenny Hitt" <kenny@hittsjunk.net>
> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 9:15 AM
> Subject: Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome
> 
> 
> Hi.
> Although the sighted community will be missing what seems to be a good
> desktop, I don't think the blind community is missing much by not having
> Gnome.
> 
>           Kenny

Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome

[Laura Eaves]

Yes, I would appreciate that -- but after next week perhaps.  Thanx a bunch!

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kenny Hitt" <kenny@hittsjunk.net>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 12:40 AM
Subject: Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome


Hi.

My message was sent after my latest frustration with Gnome
accessibility. I've been attempting to use Gnome for 2 years, and it's
still got a ways to go.  I'm not against a blind person using a GUI, I'm
just frustrated with the access available and the progress of that
access.

If you want, I'll be glad to help you get Gnopernicus up and running,
but be prepared for disappointment.  Before you try Gnopernicus, you
will need access to the text console or you will have real problems.

Hope this helps.
           Kenny


On Sun, Apr 03, 2005 at 09:47:52PM -0400, Laura Eaves wrote:
> Hi -- I actually disagree as there are many blind users of windows who use
> the MS Office apps heavily, by necessity, who would benefit greatly from
> gnome based versions of these apps -- or at least gnome versions that can
> process the same file formats so that the documents are portable.
> Also, a lot has been done with blind access to UML diagrams and such used 
> in
> OO programming, and it would be nice if these types of tools were 
> available
> on linux/unix for used by a workplace with mixed blind and sighted
> employees.
> Anyway before I get in too deeply, I have not yet tried gnome or
> gnopernicus.  And the culture of the speakup list is to go text instead of
> graphical, but since I spent so amny years resisting that awful monster
> windows from invading my space only to switch to jaws/window yes and 
> windows
> when I lost my vision finally, I do think the work on gnome is a good 
> thing,
> not to replace speakup but to have that in the works for handling new
> advances as they come out, even if the interface is graphical.
> Off box...*smile*
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Kenny Hitt" <kenny@hittsjunk.net>
> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." 
> <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 9:15 AM
> Subject: Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome
>
>
> Hi.
> Although the sighted community will be missing what seems to be a good
> desktop, I don't think the blind community is missing much by not having
> Gnome.
>
>           Kenny

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 

Re: links 2.1 and elinks was Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome

[Steve Holmes]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: RIPEMD160

On Sat, Apr 02, 2005 at 10:50:10PM -0600, Kenny Hitt wrote:
> 
> What version of linkx 2.1 are you using?  It's up to pre 17 now.

I'm still on pre15; didn't realize newer versions came out that
recently.  Has there been improvements to javascript support in these
later versions?

> Elinks is a C program and doesn't use any java.  It does use
> spidermonkey which is Mozilla's javascript inturpreter, but that's a C
> program.  I personally don't know of any console browser that needs
> Java.

I may have confused things a bit.  Yes, it was spidermonkey I was
thinking of.  I recall reading the various requirements to get
elinks going and at the time, it seemed overwelming to me.  Maybe it
isn't all that bad but for some reason, I thought I heard that
spidermonkey had some strange quirks.  Is elinks that good a deal?

- -- 
HolmesGrown Solutions
The best solutions for the best price!
http://ld.net/?holmesgrown
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Re: links 2.1 and elinks was Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome

[Kenny Hitt]

Hi.

On Mon, Apr 04, 2005 at 01:20:34PM -0700, Steve Holmes wrote:
> 
> I'm still on pre15; didn't realize newer versions came out that
> recently.  Has there been improvements to javascript support in these
> later versions?
> 

There are several changes mentioned in the CHANGELOG file, but mostly
with other features and functions.  Remember, the biggest problem with
links 2.1 wasn't it's javascript, but not supporting other things like
cookies and http authorization.  Both of those seem to have been fixed
now.

> 
> I may have confused things a bit.  Yes, it was spidermonkey I was
> thinking of.  I recall reading the various requirements to get
> elinks going and at the time, it seemed overwelming to me.  Maybe it
> isn't all that bad but for some reason, I thought I heard that
> spidermonkey had some strange quirks.  Is elinks that good a deal?
> 

I like it.  For me, spidermonkey was just an apt-get command.  At this
time, I no longer use the cat except in some scripts I haven't updated.
The links 2.1 javascript is more complete, but elinks has 
features not in links2.1.
I start out on a site with elinks and try links 2.1 if I have problems
with javascript.

Hope this helps.
          Kenny

Re: links 2.1 and elinks was Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome

[Steve Holmes]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: RIPEMD160

Well, my experiences with Links 2.1pre15 on pages with javascript are
less than stellar; I should say damn near terrible.  I think I have
successfully gotten into one javascript site where things worked
right.  I can't use any of my online banking sites and the web based
database manager, phpPgAdmin doesn't work either.  I was hoping that
elinks might have better javascript support than this.  If not, then
it is off to that other OS to use Firefox or Internet Exploder to get
in there.  I haven't tried Freedom box; I hear that actually might
have better JS support.
- -- 
HolmesGrown Solutions
The best solutions for the best price!
http://ld.net/?holmesgrown
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=of/l
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: links 2.1 and elinks was Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome

[Igor Gueths]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: RIPEMD160

Yeah the only way I can access my banking site is to use Freedombox. 
On Tue, Apr 05, 2005 at 04:34:10PM -0700, Steve Holmes wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: RIPEMD160
> 
> Well, my experiences with Links 2.1pre15 on pages with javascript are
> less than stellar; I should say damn near terrible.  I think I have
> successfully gotten into one javascript site where things worked
> right.  I can't use any of my online banking sites and the web based
> database manager, phpPgAdmin doesn't work either.  I was hoping that
> elinks might have better javascript support than this.  If not, then
> it is off to that other OS to use Firefox or Internet Exploder to get
> in there.  I haven't tried Freedom box; I hear that actually might
> have better JS support.
> - -- 
> HolmesGrown Solutions
> The best solutions for the best price!
> http://ld.net/?holmesgrown
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.2.7 (GNU/Linux)
> 
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> 60PEdXuKHaOrg9LLUqg2KyU=
> =of/l
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

- -- 
How many chunks could checkchunk check if checkchunck could check chunks?
- -- Alan Cox
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Re: links 2.1 and elinks was Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome

[Sean McMahon]

Do you have to pay for freedombox?  Is this someghing only gnopernicus works
with?
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Igor Gueths" <igueths@lava-net.com>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 4:46 PM
Subject: Re: links 2.1 and elinks was Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome


> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: RIPEMD160
>
> Yeah the only way I can access my banking site is to use Freedombox.
> On Tue, Apr 05, 2005 at 04:34:10PM -0700, Steve Holmes wrote:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: RIPEMD160
> >
> > Well, my experiences with Links 2.1pre15 on pages with javascript are
> > less than stellar; I should say damn near terrible.  I think I have
> > successfully gotten into one javascript site where things worked
> > right.  I can't use any of my online banking sites and the web based
> > database manager, phpPgAdmin doesn't work either.  I was hoping that
> > elinks might have better javascript support than this.  If not, then
> > it is off to that other OS to use Firefox or Internet Exploder to get
> > in there.  I haven't tried Freedom box; I hear that actually might
> > have better JS support.
> > - -- 
> > HolmesGrown Solutions
> > The best solutions for the best price!
> > http://ld.net/?holmesgrown
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > Version: GnuPG v1.2.7 (GNU/Linux)
> >
> > iD8DBQFCUyBxWSjv55S0LfERA6s7AJ9emRD/j/AcWc6AJHlhbnKQLWitCwCfYLGA
> > 60PEdXuKHaOrg9LLUqg2KyU=
> > =of/l
> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> - -- 
> How many chunks could checkchunk check if checkchunck could check chunks?
> - -- Alan Cox
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iD8DBQFCUyNRNohoaf1zXJMRA0kmAKCV7m8atzm38QtYtRJ5xjJ+OrMSAQCgsuvp
> sEq+awCT4Uouw/Gg/mo7eQA=
> =WJzv
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: links 2.1 and elinks was Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome

[Kenny Hitt]

Hi.

Yes, you have to pay for Frreedombox.  No, it doesn't work with
Gnopernicus, but it will require a working X setup and parts of Gnome to
be installed.

Hope this helps.
          Kenny

On Wed, Apr 06, 2005 at 11:30:14AM -0700, Sean McMahon wrote:
> Do you have to pay for freedombox?  Is this someghing only gnopernicus works
> with?
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Igor Gueths" <igueths@lava-net.com>
> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 4:46 PM
> Subject: Re: links 2.1 and elinks was Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome
> 
> 
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: RIPEMD160
> >
> > Yeah the only way I can access my banking site is to use Freedombox.
> > On Tue, Apr 05, 2005 at 04:34:10PM -0700, Steve Holmes wrote:
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > > Hash: RIPEMD160
> > >
> > > Well, my experiences with Links 2.1pre15 on pages with javascript are
> > > less than stellar; I should say damn near terrible.  I think I have
> > > successfully gotten into one javascript site where things worked
> > > right.  I can't use any of my online banking sites and the web based
> > > database manager, phpPgAdmin doesn't work either.  I was hoping that
> > > elinks might have better javascript support than this.  If not, then
> > > it is off to that other OS to use Firefox or Internet Exploder to get
> > > in there.  I haven't tried Freedom box; I hear that actually might
> > > have better JS support.
> > > - -- 
> > > HolmesGrown Solutions
> > > The best solutions for the best price!
> > > http://ld.net/?holmesgrown
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > > Version: GnuPG v1.2.7 (GNU/Linux)
> > >
> > > iD8DBQFCUyBxWSjv55S0LfERA6s7AJ9emRD/j/AcWc6AJHlhbnKQLWitCwCfYLGA
> > > 60PEdXuKHaOrg9LLUqg2KyU=
> > > =of/l
> > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> > - -- 
> > How many chunks could checkchunk check if checkchunck could check chunks?
> > - -- Alan Cox
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux)
> >
> > iD8DBQFCUyNRNohoaf1zXJMRA0kmAKCV7m8atzm38QtYtRJ5xjJ+OrMSAQCgsuvp
> > sEq+awCT4Uouw/Gg/mo7eQA=
> > =WJzv
> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: links 2.1 and elinks was Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome

[Lorenzo Taylor]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Wouldn't I have to pay by the month for Freedombox?  It would be nice if I could
just buy the software so I could surf some pages that normally give me some
trouble in Linux text-based browsers.  But I just can't justify paying monthly
to visit 3 or 4 sites.

Lorenzo
- -- 
"We decided that we should evaluate the Microsoft offerings first. Once we
realised what a powerful set of tools they were, it became self-evident this was
the right way to go down."

Microsoft: the right way to go down
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Re: links 2.1 and elinks was Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome

[Justin Ekis]

On Wed, Apr 06, 2005 at 05:23:17PM -0400, Lorenzo Taylor wrote:
>Wouldn't I have to pay by the month for Freedombox?  It would be nice if I could
>just buy the software so I could surf some pages that normally give me some
>trouble in Linux text-based browsers.  But I just can't justify paying monthly
>to visit 3 or 4 sites.

The sales people at FreedomBox say you need to buy a monthly 
subscription. When my trial ran out though the software told me I could 
register it for $25.
I hardly ever use it because elinks works so well, but the one site 
where I can't make elinks work is mlb.com. There's no radio station in 
my area for my team and I just have to hear the games, so I was real glad 
to discover this.

Hope this helps.

Justin

Re: links 2.1 and elinks was Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome

[Lorenzo Taylor]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Do I *have* to give them all my personal info?  My street address?  My phone#?
I don't want them to call me.  I don't want them to send me mail.  I don't need
an email address as I already have one.  I *just* want access to my power bill
and my bank and the place where I buy rechargable batteries.  If it works,
they will get their $25.  But I don't want to give them this much personal info
unless I am actually buying the software today.

Lorenzo
- -- 
"We decided that we should evaluate the Microsoft offerings first. Once we
realised what a powerful set of tools they were, it became self-evident this was
the right way to go down."

Microsoft: the right way to go down
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RE: links 2.1 and elinks was Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome

[jim grimsby]

Hi, as far as I know you have to sign up for a trial to get the
software.  

-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca
[mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca] On Behalf Of Lorenzo Taylor
Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 7:02 PM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: links 2.1 and elinks was Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Do I *have* to give them all my personal info?  My street address?  My
phone#? I don't want them to call me.  I don't want them to send me
mail.  I don't need an email address as I already have one.  I *just*
want access to my power bill and my bank and the place where I buy
rechargable batteries.  If it works, they will get their $25.  But I
don't want to give them this much personal info unless I am actually
buying the software today.

Lorenzo
- -- 
"We decided that we should evaluate the Microsoft offerings first. Once
we realised what a powerful set of tools they were, it became
self-evident this was the right way to go down."

Microsoft: the right way to go down
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Re: links 2.1 and elinks was Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome

[Lorenzo Taylor]

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jim grimsby's comments on RE: links 2.1 and elinks was Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome were as follows:
# Hi, as far as I know you have to sign up for a trial to get the
# software.  

Oh well.  It looks as though even if I wanted to give them all my personal info
I won't be able to get an account.  It has no provision for telling it I run
Linux instead of Windows.  And it won't allow me to leave the operating system
field unselected.  I can still download the software for Linux, but it won't
work without a login account.  What now?

Lorenzo
- -- 
"We decided that we should evaluate the Microsoft offerings first. Once we
realised what a powerful set of tools they were, it became self-evident this was
the right way to go down."

Microsoft: the right way to go down
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Re: links 2.1 and elinks was Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome

[Lorenzo Taylor]

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So what do I do when it asks me for my OS and has no selection for Linux?  And it
won't let me leave it unselected either.

Lorenzo
- -- 
"We decided that we should evaluate the Microsoft offerings first. Once we
realised what a powerful set of tools they were, it became self-evident this was
the right way to go down."

Microsoft: the right way to go down
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RE: links 2.1 and elinks was Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome

[jim grimsby]

Did you get the linux download? 
If so tell them what ever you want get the trial account and email them
informing them that there is no selection for linux on there web page.
It is that simple I would think. 

-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca
[mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca] On Behalf Of Lorenzo Taylor
Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 8:03 PM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: links 2.1 and elinks was Re: Slackware is dropping Gnome


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Hash: SHA1

So what do I do when it asks me for my OS and has no selection for
Linux?  And it won't let me leave it unselected either.

Lorenzo
- -- 
"We decided that we should evaluate the Microsoft offerings first. Once
we realised what a powerful set of tools they were, it became
self-evident this was the right way to go down."

Microsoft: the right way to go down
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