Visualy impaired

Visualy impaired

[Stoppard]

Hi all,
Not being able to look at a computer screen means that it is very difficult
to get information on linux.

I have found a 8.1 version of slackware and installing speakup sounds pretty
tricky.  Particularly as i will not be able to look at the screen.

I was wondering if there are other visualy impaired  users of speakup on
this list or if it is for developers.  I have been using jaws to look at
linux stuff most of the afternoon but the more i read the more it feels like
its harder than blind folded brain surgery.  I am  starting to think i would
be better off sticking with windows for the moment.

I have been looking at a linux newbies questions web site for slackware but
its not very accessable using jaws.

If anyone has any ideas it would be much appreciated.

Thanks,
Nigel

Visualy impaired

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

>>>>> "Nigel" == Nigel  <stoppard@ntlworld.com> writes:

    Nigel> Hi all, Not being able to look at a computer screen
    Nigel> means that it is very difficult to get information on
    Nigel> linux.

Oh, really?  Interesting, an OS that has megabytes of good
documentation in either txt or html format is hard to access if you
can't read the screen?  An operating system that has documentation for
each utility and each program and howtos for installation that, if you
know what you're reading, can help you install the complete
distribution is hard to access without looking at the screen?  An
operating system whose makers believe that one should have access to
complete documentation is difficult to access because you can't read
the screen?  Hmmmmmm, interesting. 

    Nigel> I have found a 8.1 version of slackware and installing
    Nigel> speakup sounds pretty tricky.  Particularly as i will
    Nigel> not be able to look at the screen.

Perhaps Slackware is not the distribution you want.  Might I suggest
Debian?  I'm not positive on this point, but I think the speakup
modules and so on exist for Slackware.  What makes you think it would
be so difficult?  If you know how to answer the questions, access is
no problem.

    Nigel> I was wondering if there are other visualy impaired
    Nigel> users of speakup on this list or if it is for
    Nigel> developers.  I have been using jaws to look at linux
    Nigel> stuff most of the afternoon but the more i read the more
    Nigel> it feels like its harder than blind folded brain
    Nigel> surgery.  I am starting to think i would be better off
    Nigel> sticking with windows for the moment.

Oh, my stars and garters!  O my eyes and teeth!  Let me see if I have
your logic straight here, Nigel.  User equals blind.  Programmer
equals sighted.  All users are blind.  All programmers are sighted.
No users are programmers, therefore no users are sighted.  And
finally, all programmers are not users, therefore programmer equals
sighted?  

this is very interesting logic.  Just exactly how did you arrive at
this logic?  Where did you get the parts of this silogism?
Unfortunately, your information is faulty, therefore your logic is
faulty and therefore your silogism doesn't compute.    Here is the
correct info.

Most all members of this discussion group are blind.  All members of
this discussion list use Speakup.  Many members of this discussion
list are programmers who are programming their own screen reader for
Linux, i.e. speakup.  Therefore, all programmers of Speakup use their
own program.  All users are blind.  In finally, there are no sighted
programmers who are currently working on the development of Speakup.
Therefore, access to an eyes-free installation is assured!  

    Nigel> I have been looking at a linux newbies questions web
    Nigel> site for slackware but its not very accessable using
    Nigel> jaws.

Well, you might want to look at:'

http://www.linux-speakup.org

You might conceivably find some information there which might be
useful.

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: Visualy impaired

[Alex Snow]

Actually I'd even go as far as to say gigabytes of docs. There's 
definitly a lot of helpful sturff out there.
On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 
04:45:48PM -0400, Ann Parsons wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> >>>>> "Nigel" == Nigel  <stoppard@ntlworld.com> writes:
> 
>     Nigel> Hi all, Not being able to look at a computer screen
>     Nigel> means that it is very difficult to get information on
>     Nigel> linux.
> 
> Oh, really?  Interesting, an OS that has megabytes of good
> documentation in either txt or html format is hard to access if you
> can't read the screen?  An operating system that has documentation for
> each utility and each program and howtos for installation that, if you
> know what you're reading, can help you install the complete
> distribution is hard to access without looking at the screen?  An
> operating system whose makers believe that one should have access to
> complete documentation is difficult to access because you can't read
> the screen?  Hmmmmmm, interesting. 
> 
>     Nigel> I have found a 8.1 version of slackware and installing
>     Nigel> speakup sounds pretty tricky.  Particularly as i will
>     Nigel> not be able to look at the screen.
> 
> Perhaps Slackware is not the distribution you want.  Might I suggest
> Debian?  I'm not positive on this point, but I think the speakup
> modules and so on exist for Slackware.  What makes you think it would
> be so difficult?  If you know how to answer the questions, access is
> no problem.
> 
>     Nigel> I was wondering if there are other visualy impaired
>     Nigel> users of speakup on this list or if it is for
>     Nigel> developers.  I have been using jaws to look at linux
>     Nigel> stuff most of the afternoon but the more i read the more
>     Nigel> it feels like its harder than blind folded brain
>     Nigel> surgery.  I am starting to think i would be better off
>     Nigel> sticking with windows for the moment.
> 
> Oh, my stars and garters!  O my eyes and teeth!  Let me see if I have
> your logic straight here, Nigel.  User equals blind.  Programmer
> equals sighted.  All users are blind.  All programmers are sighted.
> No users are programmers, therefore no users are sighted.  And
> finally, all programmers are not users, therefore programmer equals
> sighted?  
> 
> this is very interesting logic.  Just exactly how did you arrive at
> this logic?  Where did you get the parts of this silogism?
> Unfortunately, your information is faulty, therefore your logic is
> faulty and therefore your silogism doesn't compute.    Here is the
> correct info.
> 
> Most all members of this discussion group are blind.  All members of
> this discussion list use Speakup.  Many members of this discussion
> list are programmers who are programming their own screen reader for
> Linux, i.e. speakup.  Therefore, all programmers of Speakup use their
> own program.  All users are blind.  In finally, there are no sighted
> programmers who are currently working on the development of Speakup.
> Therefore, access to an eyes-free installation is assured!  
> 
>     Nigel> I have been looking at a linux newbies questions web
>     Nigel> site for slackware but its not very accessable using
>     Nigel> jaws.
> 
> Well, you might want to look at:'
> 
> http://www.linux-speakup.org
> 
> You might conceivably find some information there which might be
> useful.
> 
> Ann P.
> 
> -- 
> 			Ann K. Parsons  
> email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
> WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Visualy impaired

[Chuck Hallenbeck]

Hi Nigel and all,

I was really surprised by your reporting such difficulty with
Linux, as was Ann. I am a Slackware user and have found it to be
easy to install without a monitor, although I cannot say if it is
easier or harder than the other distros, since it is the only
distribution I have ever used.

If the problem is unfamiliarity with some of the basic concepts
and terminology of unix/linux systems, such as the conventions of
naming files, directories, permissions, and such stuff, maybe a
unix tutorial will help. Here is a useful one, which perhaps
Windows with JFW will not screw up too badly for you to use:

http://www.wizvax.net/wizvax/UNIX/index.html

As for who is and who is not blind, or who is and who is not a
developer, Ann's points were well taken. Most everybody on this
list is blind, although a few may be passing <smile>. As far as I
know, all the speakup developers are themselves blind, and many
of us who are only enthusiastic beta testers of speakup are
nevertheless developers of other products. Most of us have chosen
Linux because we are committed to the open source free software
model, but also because of the incredible amount and quality of
accessible documentation available right there on the desktop
that comes with every Linux distribution.

I hope you will give Linux a real try before settling for a
future limited to Windows, JFW, and the world of commercial
burdens and restrictions.

Chuck


-- 
The Moon is Waning Gibbous (88% of Full)
Get my public key from the website, http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh

Re: Visualy impaired

[Stoppard]

Hi Chuck and all, thanks for your help (and opinions).

I think part of the problems for me are this heat (in the UK amazingly) and
i am still ajusting to notbeing able to look at a screen.  As Linux commands
are not reader friendly e.g. STTY, when jaws reads it it might as well be
double dutch. As it sounds like sty. Its only if the letters are in capital
that jaws reads it letter by letter.   I have been going back over with the
cursor letter by letter.  Hopefully when my eyes recover a bit again i will
be able to look at my running linux book again although it does not have
information on speakup.

I think the other problem is that every one on this list is either very
clever and, or, has a lot of unix / linux experience or both.

I am sure there is a lot of documentation on linux if you know where to find
it.  Also i have read that Linyx documentation is not always as helpful as
it might be as it describes things in general terms.  Which is not surpising
as it can't cater for all posible distobutions.  Thats not nessasarly my
oppion btw think i read it on a web site about a year or more ago.  Mind you
i was looking at the documentation on installing speakup from the Slackware
8.1 cd yesterday and it kept saying that you needed to refer to other
documentation but did not say what it was or where to find it.

Chuck i have had a look at your link but had trouble accessing the file
menuwhen i was trying to book mark the site  on IE  I will try again latter.
i also tryed linuxdocs.org but page would not load again i will try again
latter.

Chuck, , Interesting points about comercial software.  Although its
interesting for me that the growth in linux is(at least in part)  due to
selling commercial support for linux, even slackware i belive has a book for
sale or advertised on there site and links to other companys who provide
support for the right price.  Of course if you are an expert then you don't
need this, but i don't think becoming one is that easy.

All that said i wish you guys the best of luck with what you are doing, i
really lookforward to screen readers for linux.

I relise that my opinions are probably very unpopular, so i think i will
shut up in a sec.

Hopefully i will keep experimenting with linux/ Unix  in some form in the
future.

Nigel the newbie

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Hallenbeck" <chuckh@sent.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:53 PM
Subject: Re: Visualy impaired


> Hi Nigel and all,
>
> I was really surprised by your reporting such difficulty with
> Linux, as was Ann. I am a Slackware user and have found it to be
> easy to install without a monitor, although I cannot say if it is
> easier or harder than the other distros, since it is the only
> distribution I have ever used.
>
> If the problem is unfamiliarity with some of the basic concepts
> and terminology of unix/linux systems, such as the conventions of
> naming files, directories, permissions, and such stuff, maybe a
> unix tutorial will help. Here is a useful one, which perhaps
> Windows with JFW will not screw up too badly for you to use:
>
> http://www.wizvax.net/wizvax/UNIX/index.html
>
> As for who is and who is not blind, or who is and who is not a
> developer, Ann's points were well taken. Most everybody on this
> list is blind, although a few may be passing <smile>. As far as I
> know, all the speakup developers are themselves blind, and many
> of us who are only enthusiastic beta testers of speakup are
> nevertheless developers of other products. Most of us have chosen
> Linux because we are committed to the open source free software
> model, but also because of the incredible amount and quality of
> accessible documentation available right there on the desktop
> that comes with every Linux distribution.
>
> I hope you will give Linux a real try before settling for a
> future limited to Windows, JFW, and the world of commercial
> burdens and restrictions.
>
> Chuck
>
>
> --
> The Moon is Waning Gibbous (88% of Full)
> Get my public key from the website, http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Visualy impaired

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

Great post, Chuck.  I admit I was a trifle sarcastic, but Nigel's
logic just was so outlandish, I was astonished.  

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: Visualy impaired

[Stoppard]

Hi Ann and all.
Sorry i did really not mean to offened any one, although i admit i was tired
and stressed when i made that post.
All i ment to ask was if the speakUp list has developers users or both on
it.  I was not trying to say one thing or another.
I am sorry for asking this question.
Nigel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 12:21 PM
Subject: Re: Visualy impaired


> Hi all,
>
> Great post, Chuck.  I admit I was a trifle sarcastic, but Nigel's
> logic just was so outlandish, I was astonished.
>
> Ann P.
>
> --
> Ann K. Parsons
> email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
JRRT
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Visualy impaired

[Ann Parsons]

Hi Nigel,

<smile>  Apology accepted.  It just sounded a bit odd.  You've gotten
a lot of answers here, but yes, we are both users and developers and
most of us are blind.  I'm not a developer, I'm just a user.

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: Visualy impaired

[Luke Davis]

Nigel

This list has a very stand offish atitude to new users.  It's not
intentional, but for some reason it happens.
I've been using Linux since 1996, and when I first wanted to try speakup,
I got a similar treatment to what you're getting now.
Like I said, it's not intentional, and I would suggest you try to forget
it, and take from it what education on the points that you can.

To answer your questions:

Speakup is a screen reader, developed by blind people, for blind people,
and used by blind people.  I know of no sighted people on this list.  The
list has both developers and users on it.

Stick it out--once you get past the hazing, you'll like it here.

Luke


On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, Stoppard wrote:

> Hi Ann and all.
> Sorry i did really not mean to offened any one, although i admit i was tired
> and stressed when i made that post.
> All i ment to ask was if the speakUp list has developers users or both on
> it.  I was not trying to say one thing or another.
> I am sorry for asking this question.
> Nigel
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 12:21 PM
> Subject: Re: Visualy impaired
>
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Great post, Chuck.  I admit I was a trifle sarcastic, but Nigel's
> > logic just was so outlandish, I was astonished.
> >
> > Ann P.
> >
> > --
> > Ann K. Parsons
> > email:  akp@eznet.net ICQ Number:  33006854
> > WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
> > "All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."
> JRRT
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Visualy impaired

[Hugh Esco]

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, Luke Davis wrote:
> I know of no sighted people on this list.
> list has both developers and users on it.

You have at least one of us on this list.
I'm near-sighted, but sighted.
I'm here to help my blind friend, Adam
get his machine together.  He's ramping up
the learning curve of emacspeak.  I'm hoping
to one day soon, rebuild his kernel to support
speak-up with a software synthesizer.
Hardware is still not in the budget.

-- Hugh Esco

Re: Visualy impaired

[Luke Davis]

The problem, Ann, is that for a new user, and someone who doesn't know
you, that sarcasm can come off very badly.  "Oh, this is the atitude of
Linux users?  Helpful as a tack in the ass, forget this.".:)

I'm all for sarcasm, and so on, especially when someone "just doesn't get
it", but on the first time out of the box, it's not always the way to go.

Luke


On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, Ann Parsons wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Great post, Chuck.  I admit I was a trifle sarcastic, but Nigel's
> logic just was so outlandish, I was astonished.
>
> Ann P.
>
>

Re: Visualy impaired

[Doug]

Luke said:

 > I'm all for sarcasm

Try sarcastic eliza
http://www.ndir.com/ai/bad.html

   -- Doug

Re: Visualy impaired

[Stoppard]

Hi Luke,
Thanks for understanding where i am coming from.

Nigel
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Luke Davis" <ldavis@shellworld.net>
To: "Ann Parsons" <akp@eznet.net>
Cc: <Speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: Visualy impaired


> The problem, Ann, is that for a new user, and someone who doesn't know
> you, that sarcasm can come off very badly.  "Oh, this is the atitude of
> Linux users?  Helpful as a tack in the ass, forget this.".:)
> 
> I'm all for sarcasm, and so on, especially when someone "just doesn't get
> it", but on the first time out of the box, it's not always the way to go.
> 
> Luke
> 
> 
> On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, Ann Parsons wrote:
> 
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Great post, Chuck.  I admit I was a trifle sarcastic, but Nigel's
> > logic just was so outlandish, I was astonished.
> >
> > Ann P.
> >
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Visualy impaired

[Ralph W. Reid]

Stoppard staggered into view and mumbled:
>
>Hi all,
>Not being able to look at a computer screen means that it is very difficult
>to get information on linux.
>
>I have found a 8.1 version of slackware and installing speakup sounds pretty
>tricky.  Particularly as i will not be able to look at the screen.
>
>I was wondering if there are other visualy impaired  users of speakup on
>this list or if it is for developers.  I have been using jaws to look at
>linux stuff most of the afternoon but the more i read the more it feels like
>its harder than blind folded brain surgery.  I am  starting to think i would
>be better off sticking with windows for the moment.
>
>I have been looking at a linux newbies questions web site for slackware but
>its not very accessable using jaws.
>
>If anyone has any ideas it would be much appreciated.
>
>Thanks,
>Nigel

I am not sure where you are looking up Slackware since the latest
release is version 9.0, not 8.1.  If you can get to an ftp distribution
site for Slackware, you might want to check out the SPEAKUP_DOCS.TXT and
SPEAK_INSTALL.TXT files in the root directory for Slackware 9.0.  The
Slackware home ftp site is usually pretty swamped, so I recommend
using a mirror site instead (a list of mirror sites is available on
the Slackware home page at
<a href="http://www.slackware.com/">
this place
</a>).

I have been totally blind for over 20 years, so all of my experience with
Linux has been with Speakup and no vision.  The system I am using to
write this email does not even have a monitor connected to it, so
non-blind persons would have to get used to my old speech synthesizer
and Speakup before they could do much with this thing.  Here is a brief
history of my Linux experience, in case you still have any doubts
about a blind person getting the OS up and running:

January 2002:  Installed Slackware 8.0 Linux on a non-talking system,
using a DOS system as a terminal.

August 2002: Acquired a Pentium 133 MHz system and installed
Slackware 8.0 Linux with Speakup on it.  This was my first fully
talking Linux system.  I installed the old Accent PC speech card from
my DOS box into the relatively new system to get Linux up and talking.

March 2003 (or so):  I decided to upgrade my talkie Linux box to
Slackware 9.0.  This is my current system.

Clearly many details have been left out here, but as you can tell from
this basic history, Slackware Linux and Speakup are working well for
me.  The learning curve for Slackware can be a little steep for some
people at first, but if you keep plugging at it, you should get the
hang of things after a while.  One point that should be made is that
all of the major Linux distributions have initial default configurations
that make them functional out of the box--you will have to adjust things
for your own personal dial-up or network connections if you want to
connect the system to internet, but the other critical stuff should
mostly (or completely) come already set up well enough to get
started.  The more you work with the system, the more you will learn
from it, so jump in and get your feet wet.

I hope some of this rambling proves helpful.  Have a _great_ day!

-- 
Ralph.  N6BNO.  Wisdom comes from central processing, not from I/O.
rreid@sunset.net  http://personalweb.sunset.net/~rreid
Opinions herein are either mine or they are flame bait.
1 = x^0

RE: Visualy impaired

[Dawes, Stephen]

Go t 

http://linuxdocs.org

And you will find a welth of information on how to do prity much
anything you want to do with linux.

It is a fantastic resource that I use on a regular bases.

A second source for information, in a book format that is available
electronically for the blind, is Oreilly publishing. 
I think that there is something in the archive about how to get their
books through bookserv or a group something like that.

As far as linux distributions, a number of us are using either Red Hat
or Debian.


HTH!

Steve Dawes
Phone: (403) 268-5527
Email: SDawes@calgary.ca



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