off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?

off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?

[Deedra Waters]

This is offtopic, but not real sure where to ask this.  I know a while
back apple was doing accessibility beta testing with tiger when it was
in the testing faze.

I'm wondering wether anyone knows how accessible mac osx is. I've heard
both that tiger is good, and that it needs improvement. I'm looking at
buying a new laptop soon, and i'd rather aim for a mac this time.

If anyone has been brave enough to test this, or is using it, i'd be
interested in feedback offlist. Thanks!




-- 
Deedra Waters - Gentoo developer relations, accessibility and infrastructure -
dmwaters@gentoo.org
Gentoo linux: http://www.gentoo.org

Re: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?

[Jane Lee]

hey deedra, Apple was beta testing VoiceOver before tiger came out. 
Since nobody really did anything to make OS X accessible, having given
up at the small user base, Apple decided to take matters into their
own hands.

IMO, the accessibility features in OS X are fantastic, but only
because there's nothing to compare it to - a little is better than
nothing.  A lot of the features like magnification work well, but
VoiceOver is still clearly beta and limited and is not all too great
if you're using a non-Apple application.  However, it's most
definately more usable than Microsoft Narrator and the likes.  Apple's
Accessibility team did a good job with starting, here's to hoping they
make it more advanced and less buggy than it is right now.

Cheers
j

Re: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?

[David Poehlman]

As a voice over user, I must partially take exception with this  
post.  It is the app developpers who will need to make their apps  
work with voice over.  Voice over is far from primitive.  You can for  
instance run pine and lynx on it quite nicely as well as pico and  
other linux/unix apps.  Don't under estimate it.  More third party  
apps are coming on board all the time.

-- 
Jonnie Apple Seed
With his:
Hands-On Technolog(eye)s


On Oct 23, 2005, at 6:41 PM, Jane Lee wrote:

hey deedra, Apple was beta testing VoiceOver before tiger came out.
Since nobody really did anything to make OS X accessible, having given
up at the small user base, Apple decided to take matters into their
own hands.

IMO, the accessibility features in OS X are fantastic, but only
because there's nothing to compare it to - a little is better than
nothing.  A lot of the features like magnification work well, but
VoiceOver is still clearly beta and limited and is not all too great
if you're using a non-Apple application.  However, it's most
definately more usable than Microsoft Narrator and the likes.  Apple's
Accessibility team did a good job with starting, here's to hoping they
make it more advanced and less buggy than it is right now.

Cheers
j

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Re: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?

[David Poehlman]

D and all,

To find out more about tiger accessibility, you can have a look at:
http://www.apple.com/accessibility
and for Voice Over in particular, there's a discussion list where  
lots of info abounds at:
http://www.macvisionaries.com

-- 
Jonnie Apple Seed
With his:
Hands-On Technolog(eye)s


On Oct 23, 2005, at 2:22 PM, Deedra Waters wrote:

This is offtopic, but not real sure where to ask this.  I know a while
back apple was doing accessibility beta testing with tiger when it was
in the testing faze.

I'm wondering wether anyone knows how accessible mac osx is. I've heard
both that tiger is good, and that it needs improvement. I'm looking at
buying a new laptop soon, and i'd rather aim for a mac this time.

If anyone has been brave enough to test this, or is using it, i'd be
interested in feedback offlist. Thanks!




-- 
Deedra Waters - Gentoo developer relations, accessibility and  
infrastructure -
dmwaters@gentoo.org
Gentoo linux: http://www.gentoo.org


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Re: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi,
I am sure others will have their own opinions on this, but I say go for it.
computer  usage is a measure of your experience and preferences mirrored with 
the ability and flexibility of the program.
Tiger is very flexible, and if one is not windows dependent, you will find 
far more efficient ways to do everything there.  In my opinion of course.
it is certainly tons more cost effective tons any windows speech solution 
when you add the extras you must keep buying something that is gone where 
apple is concerned as the speech is a part of the operations system.
if you want to try before you buy, there is a way to test voiceover even in 
a store.  if you are  interested, yell and I will tell you how it is done.
good luck, whatever you choose.
Karen

On Sun, 23 Oct 2005, Deedra Waters wrote:

> This is offtopic, but not real sure where to ask this.  I know a while
> back apple was doing accessibility beta testing with tiger when it was
> in the testing faze.
>
> I'm wondering wether anyone knows how accessible mac osx is. I've heard
> both that tiger is good, and that it needs improvement. I'm looking at
> buying a new laptop soon, and i'd rather aim for a mac this time.
>
> If anyone has been brave enough to test this, or is using it, i'd be
> interested in feedback offlist. Thanks!
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Deedra Waters - Gentoo developer relations, accessibility and infrastructure -
> dmwaters@gentoo.org
> Gentoo linux: http://www.gentoo.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?

[Jane Lee]

David -
I'm aware that part of the blame falls on application and website
developers for not making it accessible, but its not to say VoiceOver
doesn't have its quirks.  I didn't mean to sound like VoiceOver sucks
though, sorry.

Cheers
jane

off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?

[Ann K. Parsons]

Hi Deedra,

One of the Davids is doing Mac stuff.  No, I don't mean Churchik I
mean Andrews or whatever his name is, signs his name Johnny
Appleseed.  He knows all about it.  You can find him on Blind-x I
think.  I think it's andrews...sigh, why can't they develope better
information retrieval for the human brain? 

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
Skype:  Putertutor
"All that is gold does not glitter.  
Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?

[Ann K. Parsons]

Hi all,

David Poehlman writes:
 > D and all,
 > 
 > To find out more about tiger accessibility, you can have a look at:
 > http://www.apple.com/accessibility
 > and for Voice Over in particular, there's a discussion list where  
 > lots of info abounds at:
 > http://www.macvisionaries.com
 > 
 > -- 
 > Jonnie Apple Seed
 > With his:
 > Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
 > 


Well, now, what did I say about information retrieval?  I got the
first name right.  Sorry David, you'd think I could remember your
name.  Sheesh!  I remembered your first name and your tagline.  Maybe
I'm not a total flop! 

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
Skype:  Putertutor
"All that is gold does not glitter.  
Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?

[David Poehlman]

to find my last name, one only neeed look at my email address <grin>

No, I'm not on blind x.
<
-- 
Jonnie Apple Seed
With his:
Hands-On Technolog(eye)s


On Oct 23, 2005, at 8:35 PM, Ann K. Parsons wrote:

Hi Deedra,

One of the Davids is doing Mac stuff.  No, I don't mean Churchik I
mean Andrews or whatever his name is, signs his name Johnny
Appleseed.  He knows all about it.  You can find him on Blind-x I
think.  I think it's andrews...sigh, why can't they develope better
information retrieval for the human brain?

Ann P.

-- 
             Ann K. Parsons
email:  akp@eznet.net
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
Skype:  Putertutor
"All that is gold does not glitter.
Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT


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Re: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?

[David Poehlman]

Jane,

No prob.  we've all got our quirks.

-- 
Jonnie Apple Seed
With his:
Hands-On Technolog(eye)s


On Oct 23, 2005, at 8:18 PM, Jane Lee wrote:

David -
I'm aware that part of the blame falls on application and website
developers for not making it accessible, but its not to say VoiceOver
doesn't have its quirks.  I didn't mean to sound like VoiceOver sucks
though, sorry.

Cheers
jane

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?

[Steve Holmes]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: RIPEMD160

Well, Some of the blaim still falls with Apple.  Look at Itunes... Her's
a main line product.  It is still a silent deal.

On Sun, Oct 23, 2005 at 05:18:08PM -0700, Jane Lee wrote:
> David -
> I'm aware that part of the blame falls on application and website
> developers for not making it accessible, but its not to say VoiceOver
> doesn't have its quirks.  I didn't mean to sound like VoiceOver sucks
> though, sorry.
> 
> Cheers
> jane
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 

- -- 
HolmesGrown Solutions
The best solutions for the best price!
http://ld.net/?holmesgrown
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=MnLr
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?

[David Poehlman]

actually, ITunes is quite usable but to et picky about it, ITunes is  
used mainly by windows users so apple code it that way so that they  
can use it.  PUt it in coco and you loose windows users.

-- 
Jonnie Apple Seed
With his:
Hands-On Technolog(eye)s


On Oct 24, 2005, at 11:37 AM, Steve Holmes wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: RIPEMD160

Well, Some of the blaim still falls with Apple.  Look at Itunes... Her's
a main line product.  It is still a silent deal.

On Sun, Oct 23, 2005 at 05:18:08PM -0700, Jane Lee wrote:

> David -
> I'm aware that part of the blame falls on application and website
> developers for not making it accessible, but its not to say VoiceOver
> doesn't have its quirks.  I didn't mean to sound like VoiceOver sucks
> though, sorry.
>
> Cheers
> jane
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>

- --
HolmesGrown Solutions
The best solutions for the best price!
http://ld.net/?holmesgrown
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=MnLr
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?

[BlindTech]

but windows media player isn't all that acccessable either. so do we blame 
windows? is there not quick time, or any other mp3 player. do we blame apple 
for all this miner stuff and not look at windows in the samemanner?
BlindTech
Website: http://blindtechs.net
blog: http://theblindtech.blogspot.com
The Tech of all Techs!
Powered by unix not M$!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Holmes" <steve@holmesgrown.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 8:37 AM
Subject: Re: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?


> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: RIPEMD160
>
> Well, Some of the blaim still falls with Apple.  Look at Itunes... Her's
> a main line product.  It is still a silent deal.
>
> On Sun, Oct 23, 2005 at 05:18:08PM -0700, Jane Lee wrote:
>> David -
>> I'm aware that part of the blame falls on application and website
>> developers for not making it accessible, but its not to say VoiceOver
>> doesn't have its quirks.  I didn't mean to sound like VoiceOver sucks
>> though, sorry.
>>
>> Cheers
>> jane
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>>
>
> - -- 
> HolmesGrown Solutions
> The best solutions for the best price!
> http://ld.net/?holmesgrown
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.2.7 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iD8DBQFDXP+uWSjv55S0LfERA07TAKDZq8/lILTqnmKzEfCsrwIR/nqz8ACcDILw
> IRnoSsiX6WdO1QgOYIZ19js=
> =MnLr
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 

Re: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?

[Jane Lee]

quicktime is also an apple product for both Mac and Windows, and
iTunes is based off of quicktime.  Nevertheless, I'm sure you could
contact the accessibility team about that, they're doing a grand job
so far trying to accomodate people by having spoken manuals and
introductions to VoiceOver and such.
there's also a mailing list over at Apple for developers interested in
using the Apple Accessibility APIs to write accessibility apps and
make apps more accessible -
http://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-dev

Deedra - good luck in finding a Mac right for you ;)

Cheers
jane

Re: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?

[Sean McMahon]

There was a voiceover review demo type thing on the acbradio archives.  Go to
the acbradio site and search for mainmenu  under on-demand radio.  I can also
give you an email of someone who uses the voiceover or has tested some of it if
that person gives you permission and you need that.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Deedra Waters" <dmwaters@gentoo.org>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2005 11:22 AM
Subject: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?


> This is offtopic, but not real sure where to ask this.  I know a while
> back apple was doing accessibility beta testing with tiger when it was
> in the testing faze.
>
> I'm wondering wether anyone knows how accessible mac osx is. I've heard
> both that tiger is good, and that it needs improvement. I'm looking at
> buying a new laptop soon, and i'd rather aim for a mac this time.
>
> If anyone has been brave enough to test this, or is using it, i'd be
> interested in feedback offlist. Thanks!
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Deedra Waters - Gentoo developer relations, accessibility and infrastructure -
> dmwaters@gentoo.org
> Gentoo linux: http://www.gentoo.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?

[Steve Holmes]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: RIPEMD160

Does this mean that Coco apps can never be ported to or run in Windows?
If so then Mac users will never have Voice-Over access to the MS office
apps either, will they.  BTW, the windows port of Itunes is dispicable!
It is one of the most inaccessible programs I've seen.  Even with my
Window-Eyes set files, it is very dificult to use.  And furthermore,
Apple apparently has no intentions to support a linux port of itunes.

What little I saw of Voice-Over, I was impressed with the native
environment but it would appear there is a lot of stuff that still won't
work with it.  I still prefer the non proprietary implementation of
Speakup and the Linux kernel.

On Mon, Oct 24, 2005 at 12:24:33PM -0400, David Poehlman wrote:
> actually, ITunes is quite usable but to et picky about it, ITunes is  
> used mainly by windows users so apple code it that way so that they  
> can use it.  PUt it in coco and you loose windows users.
> 
> -- 
> Jonnie Apple Seed
> With his:
> Hands-On Technolog(eye)s


- -- 
HolmesGrown Solutions
The best solutions for the best price!
http://ld.net/?holmesgrown
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Re: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?

[Steve Holmes]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: RIPEMD160

Actually since you mention Windows Media, Yes, I blaim Microsoft; not
windows itself but it is the developer that I lay blaim with.  Thank God
there are alternative choices to play audio files like winamp or foobar
2000 but for the apple and well, windows too for that matter, Itunes is
the only software you can use to support all features of an Ipod.  So if
one has an Ipod, he/she *MUST* have access to Itunes to use it fully.
Also, the itunes music store cannot be accessed with any other players
either and it so happens that the music store is about the least
accessible part of Itunes under windows.  If itunes never gets rewritten
in Coco and as long as the windows version is like it is pressently, I
will never again buy music from Apple's store, nor will ever buy an
Ipod.  The inaccessibility makes it worthless to me.

On Mon, Oct 24, 2005 at 09:30:12AM -0700, BlindTech wrote:
> but windows media player isn't all that acccessable either. so do we blame 
> windows? is there not quick time, or any other mp3 player. do we blame 
> apple for all this miner stuff and not look at windows in the samemanner?
> BlindTech


- -- 
HolmesGrown Solutions
The best solutions for the best price!
http://ld.net/?holmesgrown
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Re: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?

[David Poehlman]

It is my understanding that ms are working on VO support for mac.

ITunes on the Mac can be made mostly to work with VoiceOver but it's  
not as streightforward as it could be.

-- 
Jonnie Apple Seed
With his:
Hands-On Technolog(eye)s


On Oct 24, 2005, at 7:02 PM, Steve Holmes wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: RIPEMD160

Does this mean that Coco apps can never be ported to or run in Windows?
If so then Mac users will never have Voice-Over access to the MS office
apps either, will they.  BTW, the windows port of Itunes is dispicable!
It is one of the most inaccessible programs I've seen.  Even with my
Window-Eyes set files, it is very dificult to use.  And furthermore,
Apple apparently has no intentions to support a linux port of itunes.

What little I saw of Voice-Over, I was impressed with the native
environment but it would appear there is a lot of stuff that still won't
work with it.  I still prefer the non proprietary implementation of
Speakup and the Linux kernel.

On Mon, Oct 24, 2005 at 12:24:33PM -0400, David Poehlman wrote:

> actually, ITunes is quite usable but to et picky about it, ITunes is
> used mainly by windows users so apple code it that way so that they
> can use it.  PUt it in coco and you loose windows users.
>
> -- 
> Jonnie Apple Seed
> With his:
> Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
>


- --
HolmesGrown Solutions
The best solutions for the best price!
http://ld.net/?holmesgrown
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=nutN
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Speakup mailing list
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Re: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?

[David Poehlman]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: RIPEMD160

Does this mean that Coco apps can never be ported to or run in Windows?
If so then Mac users will never have Voice-Over access to the MS office
apps either, will they.  BTW, the windows port of Itunes is dispicable!
It is one of the most inaccessible programs I've seen.  Even with my
Window-Eyes set files, it is very dificult to use.  And furthermore,
Apple apparently has no intentions to support a linux port of itunes.

What little I saw of Voice-Over, I was impressed with the native
environment but it would appear there is a lot of stuff that still won't
work with it.  I still prefer the non proprietary implementation of
Speakup and the Linux kernel.

On Mon, Oct 24, 2005 at 12:24:33PM -0400, David Poehlman wrote:

> actually, ITunes is quite usable but to et picky about it, ITunes is
> used mainly by windows users so apple code it that way so that they
> can use it.  PUt it in coco and you loose windows users.
>
> -- 
> Jonnie Apple Seed
> With his:
> Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
>


- --
HolmesGrown Solutions
The best solutions for the best price!
http://ld.net/?holmesgrown
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=nutN
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?

[Lorenzo Taylor]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

A major problem with screen readers for graphical environments is that they tend
to be tied to specific graphics libraries.  I know I will probably get flamed so
bad for this I'll feel the burn, but IMO it is up to screen reader developers to
make their technology work with as many application development libraries as
possible and it may also be up to library developers to make their underlying
development libraries send import info to screen readers.  Tying a screen reader
to a specific application library is IMO a very bad thing to do.  Sighted people
only have to worry about the underlying graphics library to know if it is
installed or not.  True access for blind people is access to every application
no matter how the developers choose to render the text and buttons to the
screen.  There has to be a way to allow this type of access for all individuals,
so that as a blind or visually impaired individual I only have to worry about
libraries or programming languages if they are not installed, and of course
apt-get even solves that problem for me.  I shouldn't have to worry whether my
screen reader is designed to work with the libraries the application I'm using
is linked against in order to know if I can actually get speech out of the
application.  My programming skills aren't good enough to take on such a screen
reader project, unfortunately, but I have to say that there has to be a way to
make such a universal screen reader that would be designed to just work(TM), and
if anyone knows how to do such a thing, I'm sure Apple should have the necessary
skill and/or resources to make it happen.  Is there a specific reason why they
made Voiceover only work with their own graphics library and few if any others?_

Lorenzo
- -- 
Be careful of reading health books, you might die of a misprint.
		-- Mark Twain
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Re: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?

[Nick G]

Anyway, IPods are worthless.  The glammer and stuff is all marketing.  Go
find a Reo Carma or Carbon, players made of all metal construction.
Thanks,
Nick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Holmes" <steve@holmesgrown.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 7:09 PM
Subject: Re: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?


> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: RIPEMD160
>
> Actually since you mention Windows Media, Yes, I blaim Microsoft; not
> windows itself but it is the developer that I lay blaim with.  Thank God
> there are alternative choices to play audio files like winamp or foobar
> 2000 but for the apple and well, windows too for that matter, Itunes is
> the only software you can use to support all features of an Ipod.  So if
> one has an Ipod, he/she *MUST* have access to Itunes to use it fully.
> Also, the itunes music store cannot be accessed with any other players
> either and it so happens that the music store is about the least
> accessible part of Itunes under windows.  If itunes never gets rewritten
> in Coco and as long as the windows version is like it is pressently, I
> will never again buy music from Apple's store, nor will ever buy an
> Ipod.  The inaccessibility makes it worthless to me.
>
> On Mon, Oct 24, 2005 at 09:30:12AM -0700, BlindTech wrote:
> > but windows media player isn't all that acccessable either. so do we
blame
> > windows? is there not quick time, or any other mp3 player. do we blame
> > apple for all this miner stuff and not look at windows in the
samemanner?
> > BlindTech
>
>
> - --
> HolmesGrown Solutions
> The best solutions for the best price!
> http://ld.net/?holmesgrown
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.2.7 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iD8DBQFDXWmoWSjv55S0LfERA2M6AKDyuBe80aGhO71eo/MGVBns9uBJcACg8wUV
> I/5iuW8ytBfpttu2ECJhO0o=
> =xE9T
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
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> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
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>

Re: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?

[Travis Siegel]

I don't know if asking if coco apps will never be ported to windows  
is the correct question.  That's like asking if visual basic programs  
will be ported to the mac.  It's possible, but whether or not the  
company that owns the app will do it is another question.  Having  
said that, quick time (by apple btw) apps can be ported to run on mac  
and windows.  If coded properly, it's possible to generate windows  
and mac versions of the program from the same source.  Whether or not  
this is what was done with itunes I do not know, but I have both  
development kits, and the coding necessary to make compatible  
versions for both is relatively minor.  So perhaps the question  
should be, will we ever see voice over ported to windows.  I doubt  
it, but I could see a time when it's a part of bsd or linux.  Wishful  
thinking at this point, but I could see where it *could* happen.


On Oct 24, 2005, at 7:02 PM, Steve Holmes wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: RIPEMD160
>
> Does this mean that Coco apps can never be ported to or run in  
> Windows?
> If so then Mac users will never have Voice-Over access to the MS  
> office
> apps either, will they.  BTW, the windows port of Itunes is  
> dispicable!
> It is one of the most inaccessible programs I've seen.  Even with my
> Window-Eyes set files, it is very dificult to use.  And furthermore,
> Apple apparently has no intentions to support a linux port of itunes.
>
> What little I saw of Voice-Over, I was impressed with the native
> environment but it would appear there is a lot of stuff that still  
> won't
> work with it.  I still prefer the non proprietary implementation of
> Speakup and the Linux kernel.
>
> On Mon, Oct 24, 2005 at 12:24:33PM -0400, David Poehlman wrote:
>
>> actually, ITunes is quite usable but to et picky about it, ITunes is
>> used mainly by windows users so apple code it that way so that they
>> can use it.  PUt it in coco and you loose windows users.
>>
>> -- 
>> Jonnie Apple Seed
>> With his:
>> Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
>>
>
>
> - --
> HolmesGrown Solutions
> The best solutions for the best price!
> http://ld.net/?holmesgrown
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.2.7 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iD8DBQFDXWgBWSjv55S0LfERA0AgAKDaTGGyb6UMeOkDR1EAkyI8FFCckQCghYBG
> hmsxuTPNa0m1At2bYbt6oYU=
> =nutN
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?

[Jane Lee]

On 10/24/05, Nick G <Nick@hkcradio.com> wrote:
> Anyway, IPods are worthless.  The glammer and stuff is all marketing.  Go
> find a Reo Carma or Carbon, players made of all metal construction.

Don't quite disagree with you there, but I must admit, the only reason
why I haven't already gotten anything from Rio or iRiver or any of the
other companies and got myself an iPod is because the interface is
more intuitive than the norm.  I certainly don't agree with how Apple
is price gouging on the iPods, and I don't like that the iPod does not
support FLAC or Ogg, but nevertheless, I think it's worth a tradeoff
when I don't have to pore over the user manual and spend a few hours
getting used to the controls.  I like that I can just keep my iPod
mini in my pocket and press buttons and know exactly what I'm doing.

As for strength when it comes to the iPod nano, Ars Technica's review
of the device included driving over it and throwing it here and there,
and it didn't stop playing music until a 30 foot drop, after all of
the previous abuse.  It's also so unbelievably light that if I wanted
to, I could swing it around with just the headphones attached, and it
wouldn't fly off or anything, and the same goes to the shuffle and the
mini.  Seeing as how it's more stronger than my cellphone which is
about to break any day now, I'd get a nano the day I have enough money
to splurge on it.  Granted, some people did sue Apple for all the
scratched Nanos, but out of all the people I know who got one nobody's
complained about the scratching.  Also, the new iPod is made up of new
material that resists scratching.

Cheers
jane

Re: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?

[Jane Lee]

On 10/24/05, Travis Siegel <tsiegel@softcon.com> wrote:
> So perhaps the question should be, will we ever see voice over
> ported to windows.  I doubt it, but I could see a time when it's a
> part of bsd or linux.  Wishful thinking at this point, but I could
> see where it *could* happen.

Me thinks that since VoiceOver is tied into the operating system,
along with all the other accessibility options, it's not very likely. 
Good news is that Apple just switched to the x86 arch, and that means
OS X will run on the same PC as Windows, so if you wanted to, in a
year or two it will be possible to run OS X and Windows on the same
computer, with a little fiddling around.  Some people are doing that
already, albeit illegally.

Cheers
jane

Re: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?

[hank smith]

have they gotten voice over to run on x86?
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jane Lee" <applegoddess@gmail.com>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 7:55 PM
Subject: Re: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?


On 10/24/05, Travis Siegel <tsiegel@softcon.com> wrote:
> So perhaps the question should be, will we ever see voice over
> ported to windows.  I doubt it, but I could see a time when it's a
> part of bsd or linux.  Wishful thinking at this point, but I could
> see where it *could* happen.

Me thinks that since VoiceOver is tied into the operating system,
along with all the other accessibility options, it's not very likely. 
Good news is that Apple just switched to the x86 arch, and that means
OS X will run on the same PC as Windows, so if you wanted to, in a
year or two it will be possible to run OS X and Windows on the same
computer, with a little fiddling around.  Some people are doing that
already, albeit illegally.

Cheers
jane

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup


-- 
No virus found in this incoming message.
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Re: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?

[Jane Lee]

On 10/24/05, hank smith <hanksmith4@earthlink.net> wrote:
> have they gotten voice over to run on x86?

you know, i'm not entirely sure.  not too much works right now, so i
doubt it's working at the moment, but i'm sure all the bugs will be
mostly ironed out by the time it's ready for release in a year or two.

cheers
jane

errors with make file

[Darragh]

Hello,
I don't know if I'm just wasting everyone's time by writing this without the
actual error message but here goes anyway.

If I get errors during make about files that cant be overridden without
actually printing the file names that are causing the problem what is the
best way to go about resolving the problem?

I'm still trying to get this blasted speech-dispatcher program installed.
Yesterday I found out why dotconf libraries were not found. I was trying to
install 1.13 and I needed 1.10. Now its complaining that flite shared
libraries can not be found. I have flite installed from an rpm but the
-enable-shared-libraries option must not have been enabled so I've
uninstalled the rpm and tried installing the latest version from source.
The configure process went ok but make gave an error like cannot overwrite
file. I don't have the exact message with me as I'm not in work until 2.

For some reason though in an act of desperation I tried make install on that
and then tried the configure file for speech-dispatcher. For some reason
that worked but the make process gave out about missing files so I assume
its because I've cheated with the installation of flite.

Any suggestions?

As you can probably tell, I'm still very much a newby at all this but thanks
to Novell I've learned a hell of a lot in the past three months.

Darragh

Re: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?

[John G. Heim]

This is not a complaint about the OT thread. In fact, I'm kind of glad it 
came up. I work at the University of Wisconsin  in the Math department. The 
department gave me a Macintosh to take home with the idea that I'd learn 
how to use VoiceOver.  never having used a Mac before, I am having a real 
hard time just getting started.

Is there a blind Mac  users list? How about just a general Mac users list?



At 04:01 PM 10/24/2005, Sean McMahon wrote:
>There was a voiceover review demo type thing on the acbradio archives.  Go to
>the acbradio site and search for mainmenu  under on-demand radio.  I can also
>give you an email of someone who uses the voiceover or has tested some of 
>it if
>that person gives you permission and you need that.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Deedra Waters" <dmwaters@gentoo.org>
>To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2005 11:22 AM
>Subject: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?
>
>
> > This is offtopic, but not real sure where to ask this.  I know a while
> > back apple was doing accessibility beta testing with tiger when it was
> > in the testing faze.
> >
> > I'm wondering wether anyone knows how accessible mac osx is. I've heard
> > both that tiger is good, and that it needs improvement. I'm looking at
> > buying a new laptop soon, and i'd rather aim for a mac this time.
> >
> > If anyone has been brave enough to test this, or is using it, i'd be
> > interested in feedback offlist. Thanks!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Deedra Waters - Gentoo developer relations, accessibility and 
> infrastructure -
> > dmwaters@gentoo.org
> > Gentoo linux: http://www.gentoo.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

--
John G. Heim
jheim@math.wisc.edu
3-4189

Re: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?

[David Poehlman]

yes,
go to:
http://www.macvisionaries.com
and sign up for the discuss list.

--  
Jonnie Apple Seed
With his:
Hands-On Technolog(eye)s


On Oct 25, 2005, at 9:31 AM, John G. Heim wrote:

This is not a complaint about the OT thread. In fact, I'm kind of  
glad it came up. I work at the University of Wisconsin  in the Math  
department. The department gave me a Macintosh to take home with the  
idea that I'd learn how to use VoiceOver.  never having used a Mac  
before, I am having a real hard time just getting started.

Is there a blind Mac  users list? How about just a general Mac users  
list?



At 04:01 PM 10/24/2005, Sean McMahon wrote:

> There was a voiceover review demo type thing on the acbradio  
> archives.  Go to
> the acbradio site and search for mainmenu  under on-demand radio.   
> I can also
> give you an email of someone who uses the voiceover or has tested  
> some of it if
> that person gives you permission and you need that.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Deedra Waters" <dmwaters@gentoo.org>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2005 11:22 AM
> Subject: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?
>
>
> > This is offtopic, but not real sure where to ask this.  I know a  
> while
> > back apple was doing accessibility beta testing with tiger when  
> it was
> > in the testing faze.
> >
> > I'm wondering wether anyone knows how accessible mac osx is. I've  
> heard
> > both that tiger is good, and that it needs improvement. I'm  
> looking at
> > buying a new laptop soon, and i'd rather aim for a mac this time.
> >
> > If anyone has been brave enough to test this, or is using it, i'd be
> > interested in feedback offlist. Thanks!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Deedra Waters - Gentoo developer relations, accessibility and  
> infrastructure -
> > dmwaters@gentoo.org
> > Gentoo linux: http://www.gentoo.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

--
John G. Heim
jheim@math.wisc.edu
3-4189


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?

[Travis Siegel]

There are a few lists for discussion of voiceover and/or developing  
for such.  Apple has some at www.apple.com/accessability (don't  
remember exactly where, but they don't have much traffic, and are  
mostly used by folks looking to develop apps for the mac.  The best  
by far is the mac visionaries list, and it can be found  
(interestingly enough) at http://www.macvisionaries.com.  The  
archives for the list are there, so you can read all of the past  
messages, as well as join new, and get involved with several other  
voiceover users.  It's a very good place to ask questions, and get  
help, as the group is fairly responsive to quiries.
Hope this helps.

On Oct 25, 2005, at 9:31 AM, John G. Heim wrote:

> This is not a complaint about the OT thread. In fact, I'm kind of  
> glad it came up. I work at the University of Wisconsin  in the Math  
> department. The department gave me a Macintosh to take home with  
> the idea that I'd learn how to use VoiceOver.  never having used a  
> Mac before, I am having a real hard time just getting started.
>
> Is there a blind Mac  users list? How about just a general Mac  
> users list?
>
>
>
> At 04:01 PM 10/24/2005, Sean McMahon wrote:
>
>> There was a voiceover review demo type thing on the acbradio  
>> archives.  Go to
>> the acbradio site and search for mainmenu  under on-demand radio.   
>> I can also
>> give you an email of someone who uses the voiceover or has tested  
>> some of it if
>> that person gives you permission and you need that.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Deedra Waters" <dmwaters@gentoo.org>
>> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>> Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2005 11:22 AM
>> Subject: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?
>>
>>
>> > This is offtopic, but not real sure where to ask this.  I know a  
>> while
>> > back apple was doing accessibility beta testing with tiger when  
>> it was
>> > in the testing faze.
>> >
>> > I'm wondering wether anyone knows how accessible mac osx is.  
>> I've heard
>> > both that tiger is good, and that it needs improvement. I'm  
>> looking at
>> > buying a new laptop soon, and i'd rather aim for a mac this time.
>> >
>> > If anyone has been brave enough to test this, or is using it,  
>> i'd be
>> > interested in feedback offlist. Thanks!
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Deedra Waters - Gentoo developer relations, accessibility and  
>> infrastructure -
>> > dmwaters@gentoo.org
>> > Gentoo linux: http://www.gentoo.org
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Speakup mailing list
>> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>
> --
> John G. Heim
> jheim@math.wisc.edu
> 3-4189
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?

[BlindTech]

blind mac users list is at
http://www.macvisionaries.com
to subscribe send an email to
discuss-subscribe@macvisionaries.com
hth
BlindTech
Website: http://blindtechs.net
blog: http://theblindtech.blogspot.com
The Tech of all Techs!
Powered by unix not M$!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John G. Heim" <jheim@math.wisc.edu>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 6:31 AM
Subject: Re: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?


> This is not a complaint about the OT thread. In fact, I'm kind of glad it 
> came up. I work at the University of Wisconsin  in the Math department. 
> The department gave me a Macintosh to take home with the idea that I'd 
> learn how to use VoiceOver.  never having used a Mac before, I am having a 
> real hard time just getting started.
>
> Is there a blind Mac  users list? How about just a general Mac users list?
>
>
>
> At 04:01 PM 10/24/2005, Sean McMahon wrote:
>>There was a voiceover review demo type thing on the acbradio archives.  Go 
>>to
>>the acbradio site and search for mainmenu  under on-demand radio.  I can 
>>also
>>give you an email of someone who uses the voiceover or has tested some of 
>>it if
>>that person gives you permission and you need that.
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Deedra Waters" <dmwaters@gentoo.org>
>>To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>>Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2005 11:22 AM
>>Subject: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?
>>
>>
>> > This is offtopic, but not real sure where to ask this.  I know a while
>> > back apple was doing accessibility beta testing with tiger when it was
>> > in the testing faze.
>> >
>> > I'm wondering wether anyone knows how accessible mac osx is. I've heard
>> > both that tiger is good, and that it needs improvement. I'm looking at
>> > buying a new laptop soon, and i'd rather aim for a mac this time.
>> >
>> > If anyone has been brave enough to test this, or is using it, i'd be
>> > interested in feedback offlist. Thanks!
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Deedra Waters - Gentoo developer relations, accessibility and
>> infrastructure -
>> > dmwaters@gentoo.org
>> > Gentoo linux: http://www.gentoo.org
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Speakup mailing list
>> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Speakup mailing list
>>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> --
> John G. Heim
> jheim@math.wisc.edu
> 3-4189
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 

RE: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?

[Juan Hernandez]

How do you use an ipodmini?

Don't you have to be able to see to use one?
 
Take care

-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of Jane Lee
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 7:51 PM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?

On 10/24/05, Nick G <Nick@hkcradio.com> wrote:
> Anyway, IPods are worthless.  The glammer and stuff is all marketing.  
> Go find a Reo Carma or Carbon, players made of all metal construction.

Don't quite disagree with you there, but I must admit, the only reason why I
haven't already gotten anything from Rio or iRiver or any of the other
companies and got myself an iPod is because the interface is more intuitive
than the norm.  I certainly don't agree with how Apple is price gouging on
the iPods, and I don't like that the iPod does not support FLAC or Ogg, but
nevertheless, I think it's worth a tradeoff when I don't have to pore over
the user manual and spend a few hours getting used to the controls.  I like
that I can just keep my iPod mini in my pocket and press buttons and know
exactly what I'm doing.

As for strength when it comes to the iPod nano, Ars Technica's review of the
device included driving over it and throwing it here and there, and it
didn't stop playing music until a 30 foot drop, after all of the previous
abuse.  It's also so unbelievably light that if I wanted to, I could swing
it around with just the headphones attached, and it wouldn't fly off or
anything, and the same goes to the shuffle and the mini.  Seeing as how it's
more stronger than my cellphone which is about to break any day now, I'd get
a nano the day I have enough money to splurge on it.  Granted, some people
did sue Apple for all the scratched Nanos, but out of all the people I know
who got one nobody's complained about the scratching.  Also, the new iPod is
made up of new material that resists scratching.

Cheers
jane

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?

[Jane Lee]

John, there are many such lists.  Apple also has a spoken VoiceOver
guide on their accessibility site http://apple.com/accessibility

You'll find mostly developer lists on http://lists.apple.com, and like
someone here mentioned, there's also mailing lists for blind mac users
at http://www.macvisionaries.com/mailinglists.php.  There's also some
at the macintosh guy's website - http://www.themacintoshguy.com/lists/

A google search for them will probably come up with a lot.  There's
probably a chance there will be some Mac related lists over at gmane,
MARC or mail-archives.com too.

Cheers
jane

Re: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?

[Jane Lee]

On 10/25/05, Juan Hernandez <juan@netplus1.com> wrote:
> How do you use an ipodmini?
> Don't you have to be able to see to use one?

Yep, I am.  But I'm a computer science major interested in human
computer interaction, and it's been quite a startling experience
working with visually disabled people my age, which is why most of the
time I just lurk here to see what's going on.

On the other hand, my iPod mini is always in my pocket unless I have
to fiddle around with the volume.  And it's always on one playlist. 
So no, you don't necessarily have to be sighted to use one.

Cheers
jane

Re: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?

[Glenn at home]

What is not accessible about windows media player?
Glenn
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "BlindTech" <blindtech@blindtechs.net>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 11:30 AM
Subject: Re: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?


but windows media player isn't all that acccessable either. so do we blame
windows? is there not quick time, or any other mp3 player. do we blame apple
for all this miner stuff and not look at windows in the samemanner?
BlindTech
Website: http://blindtechs.net
blog: http://theblindtech.blogspot.com
The Tech of all Techs!
Powered by unix not M$!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Holmes" <steve@holmesgrown.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 8:37 AM
Subject: Re: off topic: accessibility with mac stuff?


> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: RIPEMD160
>
> Well, Some of the blaim still falls with Apple.  Look at Itunes... Her's
> a main line product.  It is still a silent deal.
>
> On Sun, Oct 23, 2005 at 05:18:08PM -0700, Jane Lee wrote:
>> David -
>> I'm aware that part of the blame falls on application and website
>> developers for not making it accessible, but its not to say VoiceOver
>> doesn't have its quirks.  I didn't mean to sound like VoiceOver sucks
>> though, sorry.
>>
>> Cheers
>> jane
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>>
>
> - -- 
> HolmesGrown Solutions
> The best solutions for the best price!
> http://ld.net/?holmesgrown
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.2.7 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iD8DBQFDXP+uWSjv55S0LfERA07TAKDZq8/lILTqnmKzEfCsrwIR/nqz8ACcDILw
> IRnoSsiX6WdO1QgOYIZ19js=
> =MnLr
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup


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