Problems with pdf files.

Problems with pdf files.

[Thomas Ward]

Hi, list. Have a problem here. It is with the pdf files I have.

some pdf files will convert with no problem using pdftotext, but I have some
Linux books from Sam's which simply will not convert. Trying to do so in
Adobe Acrobat  Reader didn't help.
when I inquired about it Sam's said they did that for copy protection. Is
there anyway to force a pdf file into text when it has been secured?

I'm getting frustrated because although Sam's will give me ebooks they
insist on pdf format only.

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[Kirk Wood]

On Mon, 14 Jan 2002, Thomas Ward wrote:
> some pdf files will convert with no problem using pdftotext, but I have some
> Linux books from Sam's which simply will not convert. Trying to do so in
> Adobe Acrobat  Reader didn't help.
> when I inquired about it Sam's said they did that for copy protection. Is
> there anyway to force a pdf file into text when it has been secured?

Well, there was a program written to unsecure the file. But the US
government imprisoned the author for about five months a short while
back. I don't know if you can find the program or not. And if you do,
take heed to the fate of the author (and keep your mouth shut to avoid the
same fate).

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[Thomas Ward]

Great! The US government would toss a blind guy in jail for wanting to
simply read a book he paid for, and stand behind a company that refuses to
make the book accessible.
Rather it is accessible as long as you have Acrobat Reader 5, upgrade to JFW
4.0, and are stuck to the Windows ball in chain.

it seams to me people should stop griping about Word documents which can be
converted easily, and find out a way to bitch out companies that stick to
formats like pdf and won't give a readible copy to the blind.

What is the name of the program that the guy made? It is probably out there
if a person looks hard enough.

----- Original Message -----
From: Kirk Wood <cpt.kirk@1tree.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 8:16 AM
Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.


> On Mon, 14 Jan 2002, Thomas Ward wrote:
> > some pdf files will convert with no problem using pdftotext, but I have
some
> > Linux books from Sam's which simply will not convert. Trying to do so in
> > Adobe Acrobat  Reader didn't help.
> > when I inquired about it Sam's said they did that for copy protection.
Is
> > there anyway to force a pdf file into text when it has been secured?
>
> Well, there was a program written to unsecure the file. But the US
> government imprisoned the author for about five months a short while
> back. I don't know if you can find the program or not. And if you do,
> take heed to the fate of the author (and keep your mouth shut to avoid the
> same fate).
>
> =======
> Kirk Wood
> Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
>
> Nowlan's Theory:
>         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
>         the next freeway exit.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[David Poehlman]

hold on.  discussing this further on the list may put the list in the
throws of a sticky mess.  we should take this off list but I do want to
point out that it is the distributor of the software and the maker of
the software who may end up in the slammer in this case.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Ward" <tward@bright.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 8:41 AM
Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.


Great! The US government would toss a blind guy in jail for wanting to
simply read a book he paid for, and stand behind a company that refuses
to
make the book accessible.
Rather it is accessible as long as you have Acrobat Reader 5, upgrade to
JFW
4.0, and are stuck to the Windows ball in chain.

it seams to me people should stop griping about Word documents which can
be
converted easily, and find out a way to bitch out companies that stick
to
formats like pdf and won't give a readible copy to the blind.

What is the name of the program that the guy made? It is probably out
there
if a person looks hard enough.

----- Original Message -----
From: Kirk Wood <cpt.kirk@1tree.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 8:16 AM
Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.


> On Mon, 14 Jan 2002, Thomas Ward wrote:
> > some pdf files will convert with no problem using pdftotext, but I
have
some
> > Linux books from Sam's which simply will not convert. Trying to do
so in
> > Adobe Acrobat  Reader didn't help.
> > when I inquired about it Sam's said they did that for copy
protection.
Is
> > there anyway to force a pdf file into text when it has been secured?
>
> Well, there was a program written to unsecure the file. But the US
> government imprisoned the author for about five months a short while
> back. I don't know if you can find the program or not. And if you do,
> take heed to the fate of the author (and keep your mouth shut to avoid
the
> same fate).
>
> =======
> Kirk Wood
> Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
>
> Nowlan's Theory:
>         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
>         the next freeway exit.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[Kirk Wood]

On Mon, 14 Jan 2002, David Poehlman wrote:
> hold on.  discussing this further on the list may put the list in the
> throws of a sticky mess.  we should take this off list but I do want to
> point out that it is the distributor of the software and the maker of
> the software who may end up in the slammer in this case.

First, anyone who says where to get the program can be prosecuted. That is
the whole thing about the DVD case in the US. Second, the law provides for
prosecution of people who actually download said program. At the end of
napster they were going after people who were downloading. 

Therefore, I have said what I will say. As I said, pay attention to some
people's fate. I wouldn't have said that if I planned on posting the
information on how to get the program.

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[David Poehlman]

yes, there has been som hysteria and I agree with you.  I was more
aiming this at the person who thinks that in this case a blind person
who wants to read something he purchased would be thrown in the slammer
for it.  I hope the hysteria does not go that far.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kirk Wood" <cpt.kirk@1tree.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 9:05 AM
Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.


On Mon, 14 Jan 2002, David Poehlman wrote:
> hold on.  discussing this further on the list may put the list in the
> throws of a sticky mess.  we should take this off list but I do want
to
> point out that it is the distributor of the software and the maker of
> the software who may end up in the slammer in this case.

First, anyone who says where to get the program can be prosecuted. That
is
the whole thing about the DVD case in the US. Second, the law provides
for
prosecution of people who actually download said program. At the end of
napster they were going after people who were downloading.

Therefore, I have said what I will say. As I said, pay attention to some
people's fate. I wouldn't have said that if I planned on posting the
information on how to get the program.

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.



_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[Gregory Nowak]

Yeah, the files are encrypted.
If you run ps2ascii, it will spit the file back out too, but will give the URL where you can get the patch to ps2ascii/pdftotext to try to decrypt the files. I've had mixed results with it myself.
Greg


On Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 04:14:13AM -0500, Thomas Ward wrote:
> Hi, list. Have a problem here. It is with the pdf files I have.
> 
> some pdf files will convert with no problem using pdftotext, but I have some
> Linux books from Sam's which simply will not convert. Trying to do so in
> Adobe Acrobat  Reader didn't help.
> when I inquired about it Sam's said they did that for copy protection. Is
> there anyway to force a pdf file into text when it has been secured?
> 
> I'm getting frustrated because although Sam's will give me ebooks they
> insist on pdf format only.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[BTBG]

Would it be possible to contact the publisher of the PDF to get a password
to unlock the encryption?   I assume that that would be Sam's?

from
Keith H.



--- You Wrote: ---

> when I inquired about it Sam's said they did that for copy protection. Is
> there anyway to force a pdf file into text when it has been secured?
>
> I'm getting frustrated because although Sam's will give me ebooks they
> insist on pdf format only.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
>
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[Thomas Ward]

That's the problem. They insist pdf documents are accessible because of
Adobe's 5.0 release. However, what they aren't getting is I am trying to
read a document on Linux, and Adobe for Linux doesn't work with speech.
It is a case were I am going to have to call them back, and insist on
talking to some high level official, and tell them the problem.
Perhaps tell them if they don't cooperate with my accessible needs I may
have to get a lawyer, and see if they are violating some accessability laws.
After all they insist it is accessible, but only accessible to those with
new Microsoft based technologies.


----- Original Message -----
From: BTBG <kheltsley@shell.core.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 3:52 PM
Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.


> Would it be possible to contact the publisher of the PDF to get a password
> to unlock the encryption?   I assume that that would be Sam's?
>
> from
> Keith H.
>
>
>
> --- You Wrote: ---
>
> > when I inquired about it Sam's said they did that for copy protection.
Is
> > there anyway to force a pdf file into text when it has been secured?
> >
> > I'm getting frustrated because although Sam's will give me ebooks they
> > insist on pdf format only.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> >
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[BTBG]

Good luck with that. Maybe a lawyer is the thing to do. I have dealt with a
publisher before who had me sign a form stating that I wouldn't reproduce
their material and they literally emailed me, chapter by chapter, the entire
book that I wanted.

If there are only a few spots that are locked, you might try using OCR
scanning to see how well it will read the info.  It would be a bear to have
to scan the entire PDF and OCR, at least in Windows environments, isn't
always the most accurate of technologies.

from
Keith H.

No husband has ever been shot while doing the dishes.

--- You Wrote: ---

That's the problem. They insist pdf documents are accessible because of
Adobe's 5.0 release. However, what they aren't getting is I am trying to
read a document on Linux, and Adobe for Linux doesn't work with speech.
It is a case were I am going to have to call them back, and insist on
talking to some high level official, and tell them the problem.
Perhaps tell them if they don't cooperate with my accessible needs I may
have to get a lawyer, and see if they are violating some accessability laws.
After all they insist it is accessible, but only accessible to those with
new Microsoft based technologies.
----- Original Message -----
From: BTBG <
kheltsley@shell.core.com>
To: <
speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 3:52 PM
Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.
> Would it be possible to contact the publisher of the PDF to get a password
> to unlock the encryption?   I assume that that would be Sam's?

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[Janina Sajka]

Thomas:

If you're willing to follow through with this argument, it may bear fruit 
for all of us.

Meanwhile, have you loaded the offshore utilities for PDF?? See:

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Adobe/Gallery/


On Tue, 15 Jan 2002, Thomas Ward wrote:

> That's the problem. They insist pdf documents are accessible because of
> Adobe's 5.0 release. However, what they aren't getting is I am trying to
> read a document on Linux, and Adobe for Linux doesn't work with speech.
> It is a case were I am going to have to call them back, and insist on
> talking to some high level official, and tell them the problem.
> Perhaps tell them if they don't cooperate with my accessible needs I may
> have to get a lawyer, and see if they are violating some accessability laws.
> After all they insist it is accessible, but only accessible to those with
> new Microsoft based technologies.
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: BTBG <kheltsley@shell.core.com>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 3:52 PM
> Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.
> 
> 
> > Would it be possible to contact the publisher of the PDF to get a password
> > to unlock the encryption?   I assume that that would be Sam's?
> >
> > from
> > Keith H.
> >
> >
> >
> > --- You Wrote: ---
> >
> > > when I inquired about it Sam's said they did that for copy protection.
> Is
> > > there anyway to force a pdf file into text when it has been secured?
> > >
> > > I'm getting frustrated because although Sam's will give me ebooks they
> > > insist on pdf format only.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > >
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > >
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[Geoff Shang]

On Tue, 15 Jan 2002, Thomas Ward wrote:

> That's the problem. They insist pdf documents are accessible because of
> Adobe's 5.0 release.

That's all very well if you have JFW 4.x or Wineyes 4.x.  I have JFW 3.5
and Acrobat 5.0 is particularly unbrilliant under that.  Oh and this was on
a doc that I could convert under Linux.

Geoff.

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[Geoff Shang]

Hi:

Debian has a package called gs-pdfencrypt that apparently allows viewing of
locked PDF files.  Since it's in the Debian distro, I'd expect that they've
cleared any legal issues as to its use.  this is an add-on to ghostscript
and was put in seperately because of those US encryption export laws.  It's
therefore in non-US.

Having said that, I don't know how much this will do for you.

Geoff.

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[Gregory Nowak]

If you've got the money and support for such an action, then go for it. I think a ruling in our favor would benefit a lot of people.
Greg


On Tue, Jan 15, 2002 at 07:30:41AM -0500, Thomas Ward wrote:
> That's the problem. They insist pdf documents are accessible because of
> Adobe's 5.0 release. However, what they aren't getting is I am trying to
> read a document on Linux, and Adobe for Linux doesn't work with speech.
> It is a case were I am going to have to call them back, and insist on
> talking to some high level official, and tell them the problem.
> Perhaps tell them if they don't cooperate with my accessible needs I may
> have to get a lawyer, and see if they are violating some accessability laws.
> After all they insist it is accessible, but only accessible to those with
> new Microsoft based technologies.
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: BTBG <kheltsley@shell.core.com>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 3:52 PM
> Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.
> 
> 
> > Would it be possible to contact the publisher of the PDF to get a password
> > to unlock the encryption?   I assume that that would be Sam's?
> >
> > from
> > Keith H.
> >
> >
> >
> > --- You Wrote: ---
> >
> > > when I inquired about it Sam's said they did that for copy protection.
> Is
> > > there anyway to force a pdf file into text when it has been secured?
> > >
> > > I'm getting frustrated because although Sam's will give me ebooks they
> > > insist on pdf format only.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > >
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > >
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[Steve Holmes]

Yea, I wonder what Raman (Mr. EmacSpeak fame) thinks of all this; he works
for Adobe systems and was a linux fanatic like some of us.  I think he had
some to do with the PDF to HTML services Adobe used to offer.  I'd sure be
curious to wonder what he thinks of all this.

On Tue, 15 Jan 2002, Thomas Ward wrote:

> That's the problem. They insist pdf documents are accessible because of
> Adobe's 5.0 release. However, what they aren't getting is I am trying to
> read a document on Linux, and Adobe for Linux doesn't work with speech.
> It is a case were I am going to have to call them back, and insist on
> talking to some high level official, and tell them the problem.
> Perhaps tell them if they don't cooperate with my accessible needs I may
> have to get a lawyer, and see if they are violating some accessability laws.
> After all they insist it is accessible, but only accessible to those with
> new Microsoft based technologies.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: BTBG <kheltsley@shell.core.com>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 3:52 PM
> Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.
>
>
> > Would it be possible to contact the publisher of the PDF to get a password
> > to unlock the encryption?   I assume that that would be Sam's?
> >
> > from
> > Keith H.
> >
> >
> >
> > --- You Wrote: ---
> >
> > > when I inquired about it Sam's said they did that for copy protection.
> Is
> > > there anyway to force a pdf file into text when it has been secured?
> > >
> > > I'm getting frustrated because although Sam's will give me ebooks they
> > > insist on pdf format only.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > >
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > >
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[Maurice A. Mines]

hi it's maurice he works fore ibm now.

-- 
World Peace is a wonderful thing.
Our friends are our greatest strength.
We shall overcome all obstacles in our lives.
Maurice A. Mines sysadmen mines-family.net.	

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[Gregory Nowak]

That's a good question. Maybe someone should clue him into this thread.
Greg


On Tue, Jan 15, 2002 at 06:39:17PM -0700, Steve Holmes wrote:
> Yea, I wonder what Raman (Mr. EmacSpeak fame) thinks of all this; he works
> for Adobe systems and was a linux fanatic like some of us.  I think he had
> some to do with the PDF to HTML services Adobe used to offer.  I'd sure be
> curious to wonder what he thinks of all this.
> 
> On Tue, 15 Jan 2002, Thomas Ward wrote:
> 
> > That's the problem. They insist pdf documents are accessible because of
> > Adobe's 5.0 release. However, what they aren't getting is I am trying to
> > read a document on Linux, and Adobe for Linux doesn't work with speech.
> > It is a case were I am going to have to call them back, and insist on
> > talking to some high level official, and tell them the problem.
> > Perhaps tell them if they don't cooperate with my accessible needs I may
> > have to get a lawyer, and see if they are violating some accessability laws.
> > After all they insist it is accessible, but only accessible to those with
> > new Microsoft based technologies.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: BTBG <kheltsley@shell.core.com>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 3:52 PM
> > Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.
> >
> >
> > > Would it be possible to contact the publisher of the PDF to get a password
> > > to unlock the encryption?   I assume that that would be Sam's?
> > >
> > > from
> > > Keith H.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- You Wrote: ---
> > >
> > > > when I inquired about it Sam's said they did that for copy protection.
> > Is
> > > > there anyway to force a pdf file into text when it has been secured?
> > > >
> > > > I'm getting frustrated because although Sam's will give me ebooks they
> > > > insist on pdf format only.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > >
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > >
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[Maurice A. Mines]

is this person a colage student herein the us? if he is he shud be asking 
fore reader services. thats how I get round this problem.

-- 
World Peace is a wonderful thing.
Our friends are our greatest strength.
We shall overcome all obstacles in our lives.
Maurice A. Mines sysadmen mines-family.net.	

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[Geoff Shang]

On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, Maurice A. Mines wrote:

> is this person a colage student herein the us? if he is he shud be asking
> fore reader services. thats how I get round this problem.

I don't mean to offend anybody, but this is just not good enough.  It seems
stupid in this day and age to have to get a sighted person to read you
something that was produced electronically and I for one wouldn't stand for
it.  It's bad enough that sighted people ask you if you have someone who
can see to read it to you, heaven forbid that we have blind people
advocating the same thing.

OK OK, so if you really need access to something, at least it gets the job
done.  but I'd be persuing many other avenues first.

Geoff.

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[Thomas Ward]

Ok. Well, at the time being a reader is not aplicible, and besides Sam's
provided the text in electronic format, but not one  that is cross platform
accessible.

It seams to me that if they can go through the trouble of putting it in pdf
they can offer a ascii text version. However, they are worried I will hijack
the book or something.

I am still trying to talk to them, and see if there is some sort of
agreement. Problem is I am always getting low ranking minions, and I really
need to bump it up the chain of command.

----- Original Message -----
From: Geoff Shang <gshang@uq.net.au>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 10:24 AM
Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.


> On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, Maurice A. Mines wrote:
>
> > is this person a colage student herein the us? if he is he shud be
asking
> > fore reader services. thats how I get round this problem.
>
> I don't mean to offend anybody, but this is just not good enough.  It
seems
> stupid in this day and age to have to get a sighted person to read you
> something that was produced electronically and I for one wouldn't stand
for
> it.  It's bad enough that sighted people ask you if you have someone who
> can see to read it to you, heaven forbid that we have blind people
> advocating the same thing.
>
> OK OK, so if you really need access to something, at least it gets the job
> done.  but I'd be persuing many other avenues first.
>
> Geoff.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[David Poehlman]

there may soon be a new optacon.  I hope it will acces directly with a
pc and also hope that a method of using it with linux is devised.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Geoff Shang" <gshang@uq.net.au>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 10:24 AM
Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.


On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, Maurice A. Mines wrote:

> is this person a colage student herein the us? if he is he shud be
asking
> fore reader services. thats how I get round this problem.

I don't mean to offend anybody, but this is just not good enough.  It
seems
stupid in this day and age to have to get a sighted person to read you
something that was produced electronically and I for one wouldn't stand
for
it.  It's bad enough that sighted people ask you if you have someone who
can see to read it to you, heaven forbid that we have blind people
advocating the same thing.

OK OK, so if you really need access to something, at least it gets the
job
done.  but I'd be persuing many other avenues first.

Geoff.



_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[Steve Holmes]

Optacon? The last one I had cost over $4000! It'll be a cold day in hell
before I could afford something like that. Yes, Optacons fill a unique
nich which just doesn't get filled with current technology.  Key here is
getting around copy-protection. I really fault Adobe systems on this one.
Surely, there's gotta be a way to expose PDF text to the reader with or
with out a password The notion that the MSAA features for the Acrobat
reader are excluded from protected documents is totally stupid and Adobe
should have never come up with this infiror design flaw!!!

On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, David Poehlman wrote:

> there may soon be a new optacon.  I hope it will acces directly with a
> pc and also hope that a method of using it with linux is devised.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Geoff Shang" <gshang@uq.net.au>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 10:24 AM
> Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.
>
>
> On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, Maurice A. Mines wrote:
>
> > is this person a colage student herein the us? if he is he shud be
> asking
> > fore reader services. thats how I get round this problem.
>
> I don't mean to offend anybody, but this is just not good enough.  It
> seems
> stupid in this day and age to have to get a sighted person to read you
> something that was produced electronically and I for one wouldn't stand
> for
> it.  It's bad enough that sighted people ask you if you have someone who
> can see to read it to you, heaven forbid that we have blind people
> advocating the same thing.
>
> OK OK, so if you really need access to something, at least it gets the
> job
> done.  but I'd be persuing many other avenues first.
>
> Geoff.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[David Poehlman]

msaa in linux?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Holmes" <steve@holmesgrown.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 2:31 PM
Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.


Optacon? The last one I had cost over $4000! It'll be a cold day in hell
before I could afford something like that. Yes, Optacons fill a unique
nich which just doesn't get filled with current technology.  Key here is
getting around copy-protection. I really fault Adobe systems on this
one.
Surely, there's gotta be a way to expose PDF text to the reader with or
with out a password The notion that the MSAA features for the Acrobat
reader are excluded from protected documents is totally stupid and Adobe
should have never come up with this infiror design flaw!!!

On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, David Poehlman wrote:

> there may soon be a new optacon.  I hope it will acces directly with a
> pc and also hope that a method of using it with linux is devised.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Geoff Shang" <gshang@uq.net.au>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 10:24 AM
> Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.
>
>
> On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, Maurice A. Mines wrote:
>
> > is this person a colage student herein the us? if he is he shud be
> asking
> > fore reader services. thats how I get round this problem.
>
> I don't mean to offend anybody, but this is just not good enough.  It
> seems
> stupid in this day and age to have to get a sighted person to read you
> something that was produced electronically and I for one wouldn't
stand
> for
> it.  It's bad enough that sighted people ask you if you have someone
who
> can see to read it to you, heaven forbid that we have blind people
> advocating the same thing.
>
> OK OK, so if you really need access to something, at least it gets the
> job
> done.  but I'd be persuing many other avenues first.
>
> Geoff.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[Kirk Wood]

On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
> ....  Key here is
> getting around copy-protection. I really fault Adobe systems on this one.
> Surely, there's gotta be a way to expose PDF text to the reader with or
> with out a password ....

There is a way. And the lead programmer recently was realeased after
spending five months in jail without a trial. He was allowed to return to
Rusia. If you want to find the program he wrote it is out there. But
before some dumb ass asks, no I won't point you to it. The whole DeCSS
trial in the states is over pointing people to a program to circumvent
such things. I won't be lucky enough to have the EFF help with my defense
and I know nobody here will send enough money to make up for my lost wages
alone.

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[Amanda Lee]

I bet we could beat them on the technicality that as persons who are blind
seeking to enable a document to be accessible and in an alternate format
which we otherwise could not read, is this side of the law but provided one
uses the information for his or her own use and does not post it where it
can be accessed by others, then doubt there's much that would hold-up in a
court of law.

So if I have a colleague print the document and I then scan it with an OCR
program, is that illegal?  Yet I technically would have displayed the
document in another form.  So I also suppose it is illegal to magnify the
font on the screen so that a low vision person can read it?  Godf forbid!
don't change the colors on your screen such that it is easier for someone
who needs different color contrast.  So let's a bunch ofblind folks get
together and write a .pdf cracker! I'm ready to go to jail in protest!
hahahahaha!  it's tempting because this is really against the ADA and
Section 508 and against other laws.  I feel sorry for the poor slob who went
to jail.  I'd like to see where this case is documented.

Amanda Lee

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kirk Wood" <cpt.kirk@1tree.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 7:27 PM
Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.


> On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
> > ....  Key here is
> > getting around copy-protection. I really fault Adobe systems on this
one.
> > Surely, there's gotta be a way to expose PDF text to the reader with or
> > with out a password ....
>
> There is a way. And the lead programmer recently was realeased after
> spending five months in jail without a trial. He was allowed to return to
> Rusia. If you want to find the program he wrote it is out there. But
> before some dumb ass asks, no I won't point you to it. The whole DeCSS
> trial in the states is over pointing people to a program to circumvent
> such things. I won't be lucky enough to have the EFF help with my defense
> and I know nobody here will send enough money to make up for my lost wages
> alone.
>
> =======
> Kirk Wood
> Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
>
> Nowlan's Theory:
>         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
>         the next freeway exit.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[Kirk Wood]

Yea Amanda, I am frigging lying. There really wasn't someone jailed, I just
wanted to scare you. Get a GD life. The DCMA prohibits people from
circumventing encryption. It may just be that they remembered to put an
exception in case some arm chair lawyer decides that the ADA over-rules this
case.

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,49272,00.html
http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2800985,00.html

Now the only excuse for you to not know what the program is and what it does
is because you are too lazy to look. For that matter, you may even find
where you can get it. In the mean time stop whining and take some action. I
am leaving this list. It used to be about helping blind people get up and
running in Linux using speakup. It seems to have turned into some kind of
cry baby list about the ADA.

Kirk

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[Amanda Lee]

Hmm! scared me! huh?  Not really Kirk.  I do believe that where a precedent
of access could be presented with credibility and there is plenty herein,
that the letter of the law isn't always what wins a case.

I would wager you're in need of a real life if you think you can intimidate
a bunch of individuals who, in the first place, want to provide better
access to information than MacroSloth!

I'm sure glad I don't choose to live according to your rigid standards.

Amanda Lee

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kirk Wood" <cpt.kirk@1tree.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 7:55 PM
Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.


> Yea Amanda, I am frigging lying. There really wasn't someone jailed, I
just
> wanted to scare you. Get a GD life. The DCMA prohibits people from
> circumventing encryption. It may just be that they remembered to put an
> exception in case some arm chair lawyer decides that the ADA over-rules
this
> case.
>
> http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,49272,00.html
> http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2800985,00.html
>
> Now the only excuse for you to not know what the program is and what it
does
> is because you are too lazy to look. For that matter, you may even find
> where you can get it. In the mean time stop whining and take some action.
I
> am leaving this list. It used to be about helping blind people get up and
> running in Linux using speakup. It seems to have turned into some kind of
> cry baby list about the ADA.
>
> Kirk
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[Amanda Lee]

Well Mr. Wood,

You may not be lying but gee would you please get your facts straight before
you go off espowsing garbage like this.

First off, the case was dropped after five months.  He did not serve five
months in jail.  He did serve 3 weeks and got out on $50,000 bail.  So you
know, it goes without saying, put your money where your mouth is.

Having said this, I bet if one looks hard enough, that one could find this
utility.

Amazing that you are so much on your high horse about nothing at all!

Come back when you have something credible to report okay!

Otherwise, go bother someone else! with your bullshit prattle!

Amanda Lee



----- Original Message -----
From: "Kirk Wood" <cpt.kirk@1tree.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 7:55 PM
Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.


> Yea Amanda, I am frigging lying. There really wasn't someone jailed, I
just
> wanted to scare you. Get a GD life. The DCMA prohibits people from
> circumventing encryption. It may just be that they remembered to put an
> exception in case some arm chair lawyer decides that the ADA over-rules
this
> case.
>
> http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,49272,00.html
> http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2800985,00.html
>
> Now the only excuse for you to not know what the program is and what it
does
> is because you are too lazy to look. For that matter, you may even find
> where you can get it. In the mean time stop whining and take some action.
I
> am leaving this list. It used to be about helping blind people get up and
> running in Linux using speakup. It seems to have turned into some kind of
> cry baby list about the ADA.
>
> Kirk
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[David Poehlman]

not if they call me as an expert witness.  that is reverse
discrimination.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Amanda Lee" <amanda@shellworld.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.


I bet we could beat them on the technicality that as persons who are
blind
seeking to enable a document to be accessible and in an alternate format
which we otherwise could not read, is this side of the law but provided
one
uses the information for his or her own use and does not post it where
it
can be accessed by others, then doubt there's much that would hold-up in
a
court of law.

So if I have a colleague print the document and I then scan it with an
OCR
program, is that illegal?  Yet I technically would have displayed the
document in another form.  So I also suppose it is illegal to magnify
the
font on the screen so that a low vision person can read it?  Godf
forbid!
don't change the colors on your screen such that it is easier for
someone
who needs different color contrast.  So let's a bunch ofblind folks get
together and write a .pdf cracker! I'm ready to go to jail in protest!
hahahahaha!  it's tempting because this is really against the ADA and
Section 508 and against other laws.  I feel sorry for the poor slob who
went
to jail.  I'd like to see where this case is documented.

Amanda Lee

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kirk Wood" <cpt.kirk@1tree.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 7:27 PM
Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.


> On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
> > ....  Key here is
> > getting around copy-protection. I really fault Adobe systems on this
one.
> > Surely, there's gotta be a way to expose PDF text to the reader with
or
> > with out a password ....
>
> There is a way. And the lead programmer recently was realeased after
> spending five months in jail without a trial. He was allowed to return
to
> Rusia. If you want to find the program he wrote it is out there. But
> before some dumb ass asks, no I won't point you to it. The whole DeCSS
> trial in the states is over pointing people to a program to circumvent
> such things. I won't be lucky enough to have the EFF help with my
defense
> and I know nobody here will send enough money to make up for my lost
wages
> alone.
>
> =======
> Kirk Wood
> Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
>
> Nowlan's Theory:
>         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
>         the next freeway exit.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[Amanda Lee]

I would of course David!  as you would indeed represent ample expertise but
given they laughed a hacker out of court, I seriously doubt they would go
after a well-documented claim for Accessibility.

Maybe I should go and get a Technology Law Degree.  Perhaps I'd better serve
others than working for a major corporation who has lost all sense of the
value of human resources and for it's product.

As someone else said here, I doubt that if we did develop a utility, that
many sighted persons would care about it in the first place.  The output
most definitely isn't what those with a pair of working eyes would want to
view..  We certainly would have nothing to market but for the sake of
Accessibility to information which is presented to anyone else in the first
place.

I believe it is reasonable to state that the reason why these permission
flags are set is to prevent a company like RadioShack and Best Buy who
commonly produce documents in this manner, from being scalped by their
competition.

We aren't anybody's competition and that's a fact hahahahah!

Amanda Lee


----- Original Message -----
From: "David Poehlman" <poehlman1@home.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 8:44 PM
Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.


> not if they call me as an expert witness.  that is reverse
> discrimination.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Amanda Lee" <amanda@shellworld.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 7:30 PM
> Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.
>
>
> I bet we could beat them on the technicality that as persons who are
> blind
> seeking to enable a document to be accessible and in an alternate format
> which we otherwise could not read, is this side of the law but provided
> one
> uses the information for his or her own use and does not post it where
> it
> can be accessed by others, then doubt there's much that would hold-up in
> a
> court of law.
>
> So if I have a colleague print the document and I then scan it with an
> OCR
> program, is that illegal?  Yet I technically would have displayed the
> document in another form.  So I also suppose it is illegal to magnify
> the
> font on the screen so that a low vision person can read it?  Godf
> forbid!
> don't change the colors on your screen such that it is easier for
> someone
> who needs different color contrast.  So let's a bunch ofblind folks get
> together and write a .pdf cracker! I'm ready to go to jail in protest!
> hahahahaha!  it's tempting because this is really against the ADA and
> Section 508 and against other laws.  I feel sorry for the poor slob who
> went
> to jail.  I'd like to see where this case is documented.
>
> Amanda Lee
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kirk Wood" <cpt.kirk@1tree.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 7:27 PM
> Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.
>
>
> > On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
> > > ....  Key here is
> > > getting around copy-protection. I really fault Adobe systems on this
> one.
> > > Surely, there's gotta be a way to expose PDF text to the reader with
> or
> > > with out a password ....
> >
> > There is a way. And the lead programmer recently was realeased after
> > spending five months in jail without a trial. He was allowed to return
> to
> > Rusia. If you want to find the program he wrote it is out there. But
> > before some dumb ass asks, no I won't point you to it. The whole DeCSS
> > trial in the states is over pointing people to a program to circumvent
> > such things. I won't be lucky enough to have the EFF help with my
> defense
> > and I know nobody here will send enough money to make up for my lost
> wages
> > alone.
> >
> > =======
> > Kirk Wood
> > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
> >
> > Nowlan's Theory:
> >         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
> >         the next freeway exit.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[David Poehlman]

as long as we don't break the rules and get permission from the software
developpers whose software we are hooking into, you are correct.  you
are also correct that the reasons for the security flags in the first
place have little to nothing to do with us.  In fact, they are there to
protect documents from alteration and those same companies who would not
hesitate to and probably already do break them love the fact that they
can seal their documents.  I bet the federal government in the name of
national security has cracks in place especially since they are so easy
to do.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Amanda Lee" <amanda@shellworld.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 9:02 PM
Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.


I would of course David!  as you would indeed represent ample expertise
but
given they laughed a hacker out of court, I seriously doubt they would
go
after a well-documented claim for Accessibility.

Maybe I should go and get a Technology Law Degree.  Perhaps I'd better
serve
others than working for a major corporation who has lost all sense of
the
value of human resources and for it's product.

As someone else said here, I doubt that if we did develop a utility,
that
many sighted persons would care about it in the first place.  The output
most definitely isn't what those with a pair of working eyes would want
to
view..  We certainly would have nothing to market but for the sake of
Accessibility to information which is presented to anyone else in the
first
place.

I believe it is reasonable to state that the reason why these permission
flags are set is to prevent a company like RadioShack and Best Buy who
commonly produce documents in this manner, from being scalped by their
competition.

We aren't anybody's competition and that's a fact hahahahah!

Amanda Lee


----- Original Message -----
From: "David Poehlman" <poehlman1@home.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 8:44 PM
Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.


> not if they call me as an expert witness.  that is reverse
> discrimination.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Amanda Lee" <amanda@shellworld.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 7:30 PM
> Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.
>
>
> I bet we could beat them on the technicality that as persons who are
> blind
> seeking to enable a document to be accessible and in an alternate
format
> which we otherwise could not read, is this side of the law but
provided
> one
> uses the information for his or her own use and does not post it where
> it
> can be accessed by others, then doubt there's much that would hold-up
in
> a
> court of law.
>
> So if I have a colleague print the document and I then scan it with an
> OCR
> program, is that illegal?  Yet I technically would have displayed the
> document in another form.  So I also suppose it is illegal to magnify
> the
> font on the screen so that a low vision person can read it?  Godf
> forbid!
> don't change the colors on your screen such that it is easier for
> someone
> who needs different color contrast.  So let's a bunch ofblind folks
get
> together and write a .pdf cracker! I'm ready to go to jail in protest!
> hahahahaha!  it's tempting because this is really against the ADA and
> Section 508 and against other laws.  I feel sorry for the poor slob
who
> went
> to jail.  I'd like to see where this case is documented.
>
> Amanda Lee
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kirk Wood" <cpt.kirk@1tree.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 7:27 PM
> Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.
>
>
> > On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
> > > ....  Key here is
> > > getting around copy-protection. I really fault Adobe systems on
this
> one.
> > > Surely, there's gotta be a way to expose PDF text to the reader
with
> or
> > > with out a password ....
> >
> > There is a way. And the lead programmer recently was realeased after
> > spending five months in jail without a trial. He was allowed to
return
> to
> > Rusia. If you want to find the program he wrote it is out there. But
> > before some dumb ass asks, no I won't point you to it. The whole
DeCSS
> > trial in the states is over pointing people to a program to
circumvent
> > such things. I won't be lucky enough to have the EFF help with my
> defense
> > and I know nobody here will send enough money to make up for my lost
> wages
> > alone.
> >
> > =======
> > Kirk Wood
> > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
> >
> > Nowlan's Theory:
> >         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
> >         the next freeway exit.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[Kirk Wood]

On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:
> I would wager you're in need of a real life if you think you can intimidate
> a bunch of individuals who, in the first place, want to provide better
> access to information than MacroSloth!

I am not trying to intimidate anyone. Once again, you have put your
presumptuous assumptions of my motives out. What I am saying is that
others have taken a lot of heat linking and directing people to where they
can get a program deemed to be in violation of copyright. I am not going
to even take the chance for a bunch of cry babies who sit arround making
post after post about how they are being picked on because they don't
follow this or that.

If you are so damn empowered perhaps you will inform us that you will
start decrypting protected PDF files. You can get a trial version free. A
profesional version which will surely take care of most of the issues is
only $60. Unfortunately they didn't include linux so perhaps you could sue
them too. OR, hey!! take some legal action. Stop babbling and take action.

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[Thomas Ward]

Well, I have a suggestion. why don't we start getting Speakup and Emacsspeak
users together, and start writingAdobe systems. Basically, tell them to make
an accessible reader for Linux or stop advertising that pdf files are
accessible when they are not.
We have strength in numbers, and the only way to get anything done is to get
the root of the problem. Which is openly
scream section 508. while Adobe Acrobat for Windows is accessible the  Linux
version is not. Nor do they have plans in that direction.


----- Original Message -----
From: Amanda Lee <amanda@shellworld.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.


> I bet we could beat them on the technicality that as persons who are blind
> seeking to enable a document to be accessible and in an alternate format
> which we otherwise could not read, is this side of the law but provided
one
> uses the information for his or her own use and does not post it where it
> can be accessed by others, then doubt there's much that would hold-up in a
> court of law.
>
> So if I have a colleague print the document and I then scan it with an OCR
> program, is that illegal?  Yet I technically would have displayed the
> document in another form.  So I also suppose it is illegal to magnify the
> font on the screen so that a low vision person can read it?  Godf forbid!
> don't change the colors on your screen such that it is easier for someone
> who needs different color contrast.  So let's a bunch ofblind folks get
> together and write a .pdf cracker! I'm ready to go to jail in protest!
> hahahahaha!  it's tempting because this is really against the ADA and
> Section 508 and against other laws.  I feel sorry for the poor slob who
went
> to jail.  I'd like to see where this case is documented.
>
> Amanda Lee
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kirk Wood" <cpt.kirk@1tree.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 7:27 PM
> Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.
>
>
> > On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
> > > ....  Key here is
> > > getting around copy-protection. I really fault Adobe systems on this
> one.
> > > Surely, there's gotta be a way to expose PDF text to the reader with
or
> > > with out a password ....
> >
> > There is a way. And the lead programmer recently was realeased after
> > spending five months in jail without a trial. He was allowed to return
to
> > Rusia. If you want to find the program he wrote it is out there. But
> > before some dumb ass asks, no I won't point you to it. The whole DeCSS
> > trial in the states is over pointing people to a program to circumvent
> > such things. I won't be lucky enough to have the EFF help with my
defense
> > and I know nobody here will send enough money to make up for my lost
wages
> > alone.
> >
> > =======
> > Kirk Wood
> > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
> >
> > Nowlan's Theory:
> >         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
> >         the next freeway exit.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[Thomas Ward]

A technology law degree? That sounds i nteresting.Someone in that field
would have some rather interesting cases.


----- Original Message -----
From: Amanda Lee <amanda@shellworld.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 9:02 PM
Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.


> I would of course David!  as you would indeed represent ample expertise
but
> given they laughed a hacker out of court, I seriously doubt they would go
> after a well-documented claim for Accessibility.
>
> Maybe I should go and get a Technology Law Degree.  Perhaps I'd better
serve
> others than working for a major corporation who has lost all sense of the
> value of human resources and for it's product.
>
> As someone else said here, I doubt that if we did develop a utility, that
> many sighted persons would care about it in the first place.  The output
> most definitely isn't what those with a pair of working eyes would want to
> view..  We certainly would have nothing to market but for the sake of
> Accessibility to information which is presented to anyone else in the
first
> place.
>
> I believe it is reasonable to state that the reason why these permission
> flags are set is to prevent a company like RadioShack and Best Buy who
> commonly produce documents in this manner, from being scalped by their
> competition.
>
> We aren't anybody's competition and that's a fact hahahahah!
>
> Amanda Lee
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Poehlman" <poehlman1@home.com>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 8:44 PM
> Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.
>
>
> > not if they call me as an expert witness.  that is reverse
> > discrimination.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Amanda Lee" <amanda@shellworld.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 7:30 PM
> > Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.
> >
> >
> > I bet we could beat them on the technicality that as persons who are
> > blind
> > seeking to enable a document to be accessible and in an alternate format
> > which we otherwise could not read, is this side of the law but provided
> > one
> > uses the information for his or her own use and does not post it where
> > it
> > can be accessed by others, then doubt there's much that would hold-up in
> > a
> > court of law.
> >
> > So if I have a colleague print the document and I then scan it with an
> > OCR
> > program, is that illegal?  Yet I technically would have displayed the
> > document in another form.  So I also suppose it is illegal to magnify
> > the
> > font on the screen so that a low vision person can read it?  Godf
> > forbid!
> > don't change the colors on your screen such that it is easier for
> > someone
> > who needs different color contrast.  So let's a bunch ofblind folks get
> > together and write a .pdf cracker! I'm ready to go to jail in protest!
> > hahahahaha!  it's tempting because this is really against the ADA and
> > Section 508 and against other laws.  I feel sorry for the poor slob who
> > went
> > to jail.  I'd like to see where this case is documented.
> >
> > Amanda Lee
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Kirk Wood" <cpt.kirk@1tree.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 7:27 PM
> > Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.
> >
> >
> > > On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
> > > > ....  Key here is
> > > > getting around copy-protection. I really fault Adobe systems on this
> > one.
> > > > Surely, there's gotta be a way to expose PDF text to the reader with
> > or
> > > > with out a password ....
> > >
> > > There is a way. And the lead programmer recently was realeased after
> > > spending five months in jail without a trial. He was allowed to return
> > to
> > > Rusia. If you want to find the program he wrote it is out there. But
> > > before some dumb ass asks, no I won't point you to it. The whole DeCSS
> > > trial in the states is over pointing people to a program to circumvent
> > > such things. I won't be lucky enough to have the EFF help with my
> > defense
> > > and I know nobody here will send enough money to make up for my lost
> > wages
> > > alone.
> > >
> > > =======
> > > Kirk Wood
> > > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
> > >
> > > Nowlan's Theory:
> > >         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
> > >         the next freeway exit.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[Shaun Oliver]

	On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, Kirk Wood wrote:

> On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:
> > I would wager you're in need of a real life if you think you can intimidate
> > a bunch of individuals who, in the first place, want to provide better
> > access to information than MacroSloth!
>
> I am not trying to intimidate anyone. Once again, you have put your
> presumptuous assumptions of my motives out. What I am saying is that
> others have taken a lot of heat linking and directing people to where they
> can get a program deemed to be in violation of copyright. I am not going
> to even take the chance for a bunch of cry babies who sit arround making
> post after post about how they are being picked on because they don't
> follow this or that.
>
> If you are so damn empowered perhaps you will inform us that you will
> start decrypting protected PDF files. You can get a trial version free. A
> profesional version which will surely take care of most of the issues is
> only $60. Unfortunately they didn't include linux so perhaps you could sue
> them too. OR, hey!! take some legal action. Stop babbling and take action.
> -----------------------

ok, here's where I jump in.
I agree with Kirk on this one. I'm sick to death of people whining about
documents not being accessable for one reason or another.
This is the real world out here and we all have to deal with it. until we
either get access to x or somebody gets off they're pompus ass and codes a
utility for such conversions, and I don't care who does it,
we have to make do with what we have which isn't much but it's alot
compared to 20 years ago when all we had was little else than someone's
play toy.
We've come too far to let our attitudes get in the way of progress.
And as I stated in previous posts, let's just get on with the job at hand
and wait for the right opportunity instead of creating much adue about
little more than nothing.
and no I'm not saying that document accessability is nothing, I'm simply
stating that we need to be rational about the whole thing.
We've come far from the days of having to do outrageous deeds to make
our causes known.
All we need now is to work with everyone on this and if the major
corperations don't want to come to the party, more fool them.
 --
Shaun Oliver

Marriage is a three ring circus:
engagement ring, wedding ring, and suffering.
                -- Roger Price

Email: shauno@goanna.net.au
Icq: 76958435

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[David Poehlman]

I'm not certain I understand this message.  If I understand it correctly
though, what you are saying is that first, we may have a case under the
truth in advertising laws here in the us and that we may also have a
case if pdf is picked up as an accessible solution by the correct 508
covered entity.  I can see the first one working only if we can
establish that they are not telling us that pdf is now accessible under
the following circumstances but if it is only said to be accessible.

The covered entity under 508 would certainly need to consider carefully
before placing themselves in the untenable position under the right
circumstances of providing pdf as their response to meeting the
requirements of section 508 if they intend to feed their information out
to the public or have users who are not going to be able to get on board
with the appropriate tools due to the entities over sight or because of
the network/platform...

Now, there is something else to consider.  Let's say that a 508 covered
entity is looking at document delivery inside the agency and let's say
that they are happily running an accessible network with windows.95
machines being used by users with jfw 3.5, the same level of window eyes
and some other tools and that all is on as much of a par as possible and
they do not plan to make any changes to the rest of their it but they
have this conundrum.  In order to meet 508, they have to spend all this
money to fit jaws for windows or window eyes latest versions into their
systems because they have decided to adopt pdf as their accessible
electronic format and did not realize this.  Now, let's say that the
decision can be called back.  If it can, they may claim an undue burden
in it resources, cost, job downtime training etc and their solution
would then be incorrectly that they have no accessible solution.  Let's
suppose though that they go ahead with the plan to use pdf.  Gee, we
have to spend or find or some how acquire all this resource to make
these changes for these workers because of our decision.  I think this
is a miss use of tax dollars and should be treated as such.  We have
several grounds we can go with folks.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Ward" <tward@bright.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2002 1:55 AM
Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.


Well, I have a suggestion. why don't we start getting Speakup and
Emacsspeak
users together, and start writingAdobe systems. Basically, tell them to
make
an accessible reader for Linux or stop advertising that pdf files are
accessible when they are not.
We have strength in numbers, and the only way to get anything done is to
get
the root of the problem. Which is openly
scream section 508. while Adobe Acrobat for Windows is accessible the
Linux
version is not. Nor do they have plans in that direction.


----- Original Message -----
From: Amanda Lee <amanda@shellworld.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.


> I bet we could beat them on the technicality that as persons who are
blind
> seeking to enable a document to be accessible and in an alternate
format
> which we otherwise could not read, is this side of the law but
provided
one
> uses the information for his or her own use and does not post it where
it
> can be accessed by others, then doubt there's much that would hold-up
in a
> court of law.
>
> So if I have a colleague print the document and I then scan it with an
OCR
> program, is that illegal?  Yet I technically would have displayed the
> document in another form.  So I also suppose it is illegal to magnify
the
> font on the screen so that a low vision person can read it?  Godf
forbid!
> don't change the colors on your screen such that it is easier for
someone
> who needs different color contrast.  So let's a bunch ofblind folks
get
> together and write a .pdf cracker! I'm ready to go to jail in protest!
> hahahahaha!  it's tempting because this is really against the ADA and
> Section 508 and against other laws.  I feel sorry for the poor slob
who
went
> to jail.  I'd like to see where this case is documented.
>
> Amanda Lee
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kirk Wood" <cpt.kirk@1tree.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 7:27 PM
> Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.
>
>
> > On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
> > > ....  Key here is
> > > getting around copy-protection. I really fault Adobe systems on
this
> one.
> > > Surely, there's gotta be a way to expose PDF text to the reader
with
or
> > > with out a password ....
> >
> > There is a way. And the lead programmer recently was realeased after
> > spending five months in jail without a trial. He was allowed to
return
to
> > Rusia. If you want to find the program he wrote it is out there. But
> > before some dumb ass asks, no I won't point you to it. The whole
DeCSS
> > trial in the states is over pointing people to a program to
circumvent
> > such things. I won't be lucky enough to have the EFF help with my
defense
> > and I know nobody here will send enough money to make up for my lost
wages
> > alone.
> >
> > =======
> > Kirk Wood
> > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
> >
> > Nowlan's Theory:
> >         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
> >         the next freeway exit.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[Amanda Lee]

We as consumers in the U.S. cannot claim anything related to Section 508
unless we can establish that a U.S. Federal Government Agency is using this
protection flag to barr access to documentats that would ordinarily be
disciminated to U.S. consumers.

I'm probably not going to post any further on this subject.  Too many loose
cannons going off hahaha! and it definitely isn't about speakup.

Amanda Lee

----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Ward" <tward@bright.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2002 1:55 AM
Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.


> Well, I have a suggestion. why don't we start getting Speakup and
Emacsspeak
> users together, and start writingAdobe systems. Basically, tell them to
make
> an accessible reader for Linux or stop advertising that pdf files are
> accessible when they are not.
> We have strength in numbers, and the only way to get anything done is to
get
> the root of the problem. Which is openly
> scream section 508. while Adobe Acrobat for Windows is accessible the
Linux
> version is not. Nor do they have plans in that direction.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Amanda Lee <amanda@shellworld.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 7:30 PM
> Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.
>
>
> > I bet we could beat them on the technicality that as persons who are
blind
> > seeking to enable a document to be accessible and in an alternate format
> > which we otherwise could not read, is this side of the law but provided
> one
> > uses the information for his or her own use and does not post it where
it
> > can be accessed by others, then doubt there's much that would hold-up in
a
> > court of law.
> >
> > So if I have a colleague print the document and I then scan it with an
OCR
> > program, is that illegal?  Yet I technically would have displayed the
> > document in another form.  So I also suppose it is illegal to magnify
the
> > font on the screen so that a low vision person can read it?  Godf
forbid!
> > don't change the colors on your screen such that it is easier for
someone
> > who needs different color contrast.  So let's a bunch ofblind folks get
> > together and write a .pdf cracker! I'm ready to go to jail in protest!
> > hahahahaha!  it's tempting because this is really against the ADA and
> > Section 508 and against other laws.  I feel sorry for the poor slob who
> went
> > to jail.  I'd like to see where this case is documented.
> >
> > Amanda Lee
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Kirk Wood" <cpt.kirk@1tree.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 7:27 PM
> > Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.
> >
> >
> > > On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
> > > > ....  Key here is
> > > > getting around copy-protection. I really fault Adobe systems on this
> > one.
> > > > Surely, there's gotta be a way to expose PDF text to the reader with
> or
> > > > with out a password ....
> > >
> > > There is a way. And the lead programmer recently was realeased after
> > > spending five months in jail without a trial. He was allowed to return
> to
> > > Rusia. If you want to find the program he wrote it is out there. But
> > > before some dumb ass asks, no I won't point you to it. The whole DeCSS
> > > trial in the states is over pointing people to a program to circumvent
> > > such things. I won't be lucky enough to have the EFF help with my
> defense
> > > and I know nobody here will send enough money to make up for my lost
> wages
> > > alone.
> > >
> > > =======
> > > Kirk Wood
> > > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
> > >
> > > Nowlan's Theory:
> > >         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
> > >         the next freeway exit.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[Amanda Lee]

Yes indeed.  George Mason University in Lawschool, Arlington, Virginia just
opened a ciriculum this past Fall in Technology Law.  I'd like to pursue it
but I'm not as young as I used to be hahahah!  I know that someone with a
diverse technical background and particularly in the information
Technologies field would do well and it would benefit if one specialized  in
related work involving persons with disabilities.

Amanda Lee
Alexandria, VA


----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Ward" <tward@bright.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2002 2:40 AM
Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.


> A technology law degree? That sounds i nteresting.Someone in that field
> would have some rather interesting cases.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Amanda Lee <amanda@shellworld.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 9:02 PM
> Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.
>
>
> > I would of course David!  as you would indeed represent ample expertise
> but
> > given they laughed a hacker out of court, I seriously doubt they would
go
> > after a well-documented claim for Accessibility.
> >
> > Maybe I should go and get a Technology Law Degree.  Perhaps I'd better
> serve
> > others than working for a major corporation who has lost all sense of
the
> > value of human resources and for it's product.
> >
> > As someone else said here, I doubt that if we did develop a utility,
that
> > many sighted persons would care about it in the first place.  The output
> > most definitely isn't what those with a pair of working eyes would want
to
> > view..  We certainly would have nothing to market but for the sake of
> > Accessibility to information which is presented to anyone else in the
> first
> > place.
> >
> > I believe it is reasonable to state that the reason why these permission
> > flags are set is to prevent a company like RadioShack and Best Buy who
> > commonly produce documents in this manner, from being scalped by their
> > competition.
> >
> > We aren't anybody's competition and that's a fact hahahahah!
> >
> > Amanda Lee
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "David Poehlman" <poehlman1@home.com>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 8:44 PM
> > Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.
> >
> >
> > > not if they call me as an expert witness.  that is reverse
> > > discrimination.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Amanda Lee" <amanda@shellworld.net>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 7:30 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.
> > >
> > >
> > > I bet we could beat them on the technicality that as persons who are
> > > blind
> > > seeking to enable a document to be accessible and in an alternate
format
> > > which we otherwise could not read, is this side of the law but
provided
> > > one
> > > uses the information for his or her own use and does not post it where
> > > it
> > > can be accessed by others, then doubt there's much that would hold-up
in
> > > a
> > > court of law.
> > >
> > > So if I have a colleague print the document and I then scan it with an
> > > OCR
> > > program, is that illegal?  Yet I technically would have displayed the
> > > document in another form.  So I also suppose it is illegal to magnify
> > > the
> > > font on the screen so that a low vision person can read it?  Godf
> > > forbid!
> > > don't change the colors on your screen such that it is easier for
> > > someone
> > > who needs different color contrast.  So let's a bunch ofblind folks
get
> > > together and write a .pdf cracker! I'm ready to go to jail in protest!
> > > hahahahaha!  it's tempting because this is really against the ADA and
> > > Section 508 and against other laws.  I feel sorry for the poor slob
who
> > > went
> > > to jail.  I'd like to see where this case is documented.
> > >
> > > Amanda Lee
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Kirk Wood" <cpt.kirk@1tree.net>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 7:27 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.
> > >
> > >
> > > > On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
> > > > > ....  Key here is
> > > > > getting around copy-protection. I really fault Adobe systems on
this
> > > one.
> > > > > Surely, there's gotta be a way to expose PDF text to the reader
with
> > > or
> > > > > with out a password ....
> > > >
> > > > There is a way. And the lead programmer recently was realeased after
> > > > spending five months in jail without a trial. He was allowed to
return
> > > to
> > > > Rusia. If you want to find the program he wrote it is out there. But
> > > > before some dumb ass asks, no I won't point you to it. The whole
DeCSS
> > > > trial in the states is over pointing people to a program to
circumvent
> > > > such things. I won't be lucky enough to have the EFF help with my
> > > defense
> > > > and I know nobody here will send enough money to make up for my lost
> > > wages
> > > > alone.
> > > >
> > > > =======
> > > > Kirk Wood
> > > > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
> > > >
> > > > Nowlan's Theory:
> > > >         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
> > > >         the next freeway exit.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[Janina Sajka]

Raman hasn't been at Adobe in years. He works for IBM.

On Tue, 15 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:

> Yea, I wonder what Raman (Mr. EmacSpeak fame) thinks of all this; he works
> for Adobe systems and was a linux fanatic like some of us.  I think he had
> some to do with the PDF to HTML services Adobe used to offer.  I'd sure be
> curious to wonder what he thinks of all this.
> 
> On Tue, 15 Jan 2002, Thomas Ward wrote:
> 
> > That's the problem. They insist pdf documents are accessible because of
> > Adobe's 5.0 release. However, what they aren't getting is I am trying to
> > read a document on Linux, and Adobe for Linux doesn't work with speech.
> > It is a case were I am going to have to call them back, and insist on
> > talking to some high level official, and tell them the problem.
> > Perhaps tell them if they don't cooperate with my accessible needs I may
> > have to get a lawyer, and see if they are violating some accessability laws.
> > After all they insist it is accessible, but only accessible to those with
> > new Microsoft based technologies.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: BTBG <kheltsley@shell.core.com>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 3:52 PM
> > Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.
> >
> >
> > > Would it be possible to contact the publisher of the PDF to get a password
> > > to unlock the encryption?   I assume that that would be Sam's?
> > >
> > > from
> > > Keith H.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- You Wrote: ---
> > >
> > > > when I inquired about it Sam's said they did that for copy protection.
> > Is
> > > > there anyway to force a pdf file into text when it has been secured?
> > > >
> > > > I'm getting frustrated because although Sam's will give me ebooks they
> > > > insist on pdf format only.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > >
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > >
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[Janina Sajka]

You have the right to use the document as it was intended to be used. That 
means you have the right to read it. This legal doctorine is much much 
older than the DMCA. In the case of books it is known as the Doctorine of 
First Sale. This doctorine says you can do anything you want with the 
book. You can read it, and you can tear it up. You can sell it if you 
wish, and you don't have to share the money you make selling it. You can 
lend it, and you can give it away, etc., etc.

Anyone who thinks the existing DMCA is the last word has not been reading 
the news from Capitol Hill recently. But, more on that later.
 On Wed, 16 
Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:

> I bet we could beat them on the technicality that as persons who are blind
> seeking to enable a document to be accessible and in an alternate format
> which we otherwise could not read, is this side of the law but provided one
> uses the information for his or her own use and does not post it where it
> can be accessed by others, then doubt there's much that would hold-up in a
> court of law.
> 
> So if I have a colleague print the document and I then scan it with an OCR
> program, is that illegal?  Yet I technically would have displayed the
> document in another form.  So I also suppose it is illegal to magnify the
> font on the screen so that a low vision person can read it?  Godf forbid!
> don't change the colors on your screen such that it is easier for someone
> who needs different color contrast.  So let's a bunch ofblind folks get
> together and write a .pdf cracker! I'm ready to go to jail in protest!
> hahahahaha!  it's tempting because this is really against the ADA and
> Section 508 and against other laws.  I feel sorry for the poor slob who went
> to jail.  I'd like to see where this case is documented.
> 
> Amanda Lee
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kirk Wood" <cpt.kirk@1tree.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 7:27 PM
> Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.
> 
> 
> > On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
> > > ....  Key here is
> > > getting around copy-protection. I really fault Adobe systems on this
> one.
> > > Surely, there's gotta be a way to expose PDF text to the reader with or
> > > with out a password ....
> >
> > There is a way. And the lead programmer recently was realeased after
> > spending five months in jail without a trial. He was allowed to return to
> > Rusia. If you want to find the program he wrote it is out there. But
> > before some dumb ass asks, no I won't point you to it. The whole DeCSS
> > trial in the states is over pointing people to a program to circumvent
> > such things. I won't be lucky enough to have the EFF help with my defense
> > and I know nobody here will send enough money to make up for my lost wages
> > alone.
> >
> > =======
> > Kirk Wood
> > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
> >
> > Nowlan's Theory:
> >         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
> >         the next freeway exit.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[Janina Sajka]

Amanda:

You're wrong. The simple fact that one uses access technology for which 
there is not PDF support will suffice. Remember, the government is 
responsible to publish to everyone, not just a certain class of users. 
Technology to support everyone exists and is widely used. It's called 
html.

Remember also, that 508 is really just the electronic instantiation of 
Sec. 504. 504 gives you access. 508 is just one way that the government 
can deliver.
 On Thu, 17 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:

> We as consumers in the U.S. cannot claim anything related to Section 508
> unless we can establish that a U.S. Federal Government Agency is using this
> protection flag to barr access to documentats that would ordinarily be
> disciminated to U.S. consumers.
> 
> I'm probably not going to post any further on this subject.  Too many loose
> cannons going off hahaha! and it definitely isn't about speakup.
> 
> Amanda Lee
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Thomas Ward" <tward@bright.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2002 1:55 AM
> Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.
> 
> 
> > Well, I have a suggestion. why don't we start getting Speakup and
> Emacsspeak
> > users together, and start writingAdobe systems. Basically, tell them to
> make
> > an accessible reader for Linux or stop advertising that pdf files are
> > accessible when they are not.
> > We have strength in numbers, and the only way to get anything done is to
> get
> > the root of the problem. Which is openly
> > scream section 508. while Adobe Acrobat for Windows is accessible the
> Linux
> > version is not. Nor do they have plans in that direction.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Amanda Lee <amanda@shellworld.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 7:30 PM
> > Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.
> >
> >
> > > I bet we could beat them on the technicality that as persons who are
> blind
> > > seeking to enable a document to be accessible and in an alternate format
> > > which we otherwise could not read, is this side of the law but provided
> > one
> > > uses the information for his or her own use and does not post it where
> it
> > > can be accessed by others, then doubt there's much that would hold-up in
> a
> > > court of law.
> > >
> > > So if I have a colleague print the document and I then scan it with an
> OCR
> > > program, is that illegal?  Yet I technically would have displayed the
> > > document in another form.  So I also suppose it is illegal to magnify
> the
> > > font on the screen so that a low vision person can read it?  Godf
> forbid!
> > > don't change the colors on your screen such that it is easier for
> someone
> > > who needs different color contrast.  So let's a bunch ofblind folks get
> > > together and write a .pdf cracker! I'm ready to go to jail in protest!
> > > hahahahaha!  it's tempting because this is really against the ADA and
> > > Section 508 and against other laws.  I feel sorry for the poor slob who
> > went
> > > to jail.  I'd like to see where this case is documented.
> > >
> > > Amanda Lee
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Kirk Wood" <cpt.kirk@1tree.net>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 7:27 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.
> > >
> > >
> > > > On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
> > > > > ....  Key here is
> > > > > getting around copy-protection. I really fault Adobe systems on this
> > > one.
> > > > > Surely, there's gotta be a way to expose PDF text to the reader with
> > or
> > > > > with out a password ....
> > > >
> > > > There is a way. And the lead programmer recently was realeased after
> > > > spending five months in jail without a trial. He was allowed to return
> > to
> > > > Rusia. If you want to find the program he wrote it is out there. But
> > > > before some dumb ass asks, no I won't point you to it. The whole DeCSS
> > > > trial in the states is over pointing people to a program to circumvent
> > > > such things. I won't be lucky enough to have the EFF help with my
> > defense
> > > > and I know nobody here will send enough money to make up for my lost
> > wages
> > > > alone.
> > > >
> > > > =======
> > > > Kirk Wood
> > > > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
> > > >
> > > > Nowlan's Theory:
> > > >         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
> > > >         the next freeway exit.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[Janina Sajka]

Reader services are not a substitute for accessible files. Some of the 
reasons are that readers get tired, need to sleep and eat, say things 
wrong, get cranky, and won't usually read for you at 3:00 in the morning.
 
On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, Maurice A. Mines wrote:

> is this person a colage student herein the us? if he is he shud be asking 
> fore reader services. thats how I get round this problem.
> 
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[Geoff Shang]

On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:

> So if I have a colleague print the document and I then scan it with an OCR
> program, is that illegal?  Yet I technically would have displayed the
> document in another form.  So I also suppose it is illegal to magnify the
> font on the screen so that a low vision person can read it?  Godf forbid!

A friend of mine said that he's seen a copyright licence for a particular
PDF document that said that the person did not have the right to read the
document aloud.

Fair use will get killed off if we let it.

Geoff.

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[Janina Sajka]

Let's be clear about this. Whatever you read in any copyright statement is 
valid only if it falls within the law goveerning copyright. Congress and 
the courts decide what the law is in the U.S., not copyright holders. 
Silly statements such as the one below about reading aloud are exactly the 
kind of industry over-reaching that's going to get the DMCA reopened in 
Congress one of these days.
 On Sat, 19 Jan 2002, Geoff Shang wrote:

> On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:
> 
> > So if I have a colleague print the document and I then scan it with an OCR
> > program, is that illegal?  Yet I technically would have displayed the
> > document in another form.  So I also suppose it is illegal to magnify the
> > font on the screen so that a low vision person can read it?  Godf forbid!
> 
> A friend of mine said that he's seen a copyright licence for a particular
> PDF document that said that the person did not have the right to read the
> document aloud.
> 
> Fair use will get killed off if we let it.
> 
> Geoff.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[Amanda Lee]

Janina,

Appears that Geof muddied the waters somewhat as he took my statements out
of context and inserted his own.  This is why I don't like this form of
responding to email because it is very easy to distort what the original
sender intended to say.

I was basically playing devil's advocate because it goes withoug saying that
a Copyright is just that and basically unless one modifies the content and
mis-represents it's intent, there is little that can be done to dictate to
the end user what he or she does with the information provided.  If no
ill-intent is demonstrated, it's really in the gray area of what defines the
boundaries of enforceable law.  This is why I feel certain that if someone
developed a program which enabled .pdf to be accessed via a Screen Reader or
other technologies intended for use by an individual who is blind, vision
impaired or print disabled, that Adobe would have a lot of work to do to
over-rule access to information which is already provided for under the law
versus the burden of proof necessary to justify that as persons who need to
utilize sed information, that we have any other intent.

Amanda Lee


----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 10:21 AM
Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.


> Let's be clear about this. Whatever you read in any copyright statement is
> valid only if it falls within the law goveerning copyright. Congress and
> the courts decide what the law is in the U.S., not copyright holders.
> Silly statements such as the one below about reading aloud are exactly the
> kind of industry over-reaching that's going to get the DMCA reopened in
> Congress one of these days.
>  On Sat, 19 Jan 2002, Geoff Shang wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:
> >
> > > So if I have a colleague print the document and I then scan it with an
OCR
> > > program, is that illegal?  Yet I technically would have displayed the
> > > document in another form.  So I also suppose it is illegal to magnify
the
> > > font on the screen so that a low vision person can read it?  Godf
forbid!
> >
> > A friend of mine said that he's seen a copyright licence for a
particular
> > PDF document that said that the person did not have the right to read
the
> > document aloud.
> >
> > Fair use will get killed off if we let it.
> >
> > Geoff.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
> Chair, Accessibility SIG
> Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> http://www.openebook.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[Janina Sajka]

Amanda:

I was aware that more than one view was present in the message which 
prompted me to respond as I did. But, I was not so interested in exactly 
who said what. Rather, I wanted to make a clear and simple statement which 
would not be clouded by the issue of who said what to whom when.
 On Sat, 
19 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:

> Janina,
> 
> Appears that Geof muddied the waters somewhat as he took my statements out
> of context and inserted his own.  This is why I don't like this form of
> responding to email because it is very easy to distort what the original
> sender intended to say.
> 
> I was basically playing devil's advocate because it goes withoug saying that
> a Copyright is just that and basically unless one modifies the content and
> mis-represents it's intent, there is little that can be done to dictate to
> the end user what he or she does with the information provided.  If no
> ill-intent is demonstrated, it's really in the gray area of what defines the
> boundaries of enforceable law.  This is why I feel certain that if someone
> developed a program which enabled .pdf to be accessed via a Screen Reader or
> other technologies intended for use by an individual who is blind, vision
> impaired or print disabled, that Adobe would have a lot of work to do to
> over-rule access to information which is already provided for under the law
> versus the burden of proof necessary to justify that as persons who need to
> utilize sed information, that we have any other intent.
> 
> Amanda Lee
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 10:21 AM
> Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.
> 
> 
> > Let's be clear about this. Whatever you read in any copyright statement is
> > valid only if it falls within the law goveerning copyright. Congress and
> > the courts decide what the law is in the U.S., not copyright holders.
> > Silly statements such as the one below about reading aloud are exactly the
> > kind of industry over-reaching that's going to get the DMCA reopened in
> > Congress one of these days.
> >  On Sat, 19 Jan 2002, Geoff Shang wrote:
> >
> > > On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:
> > >
> > > > So if I have a colleague print the document and I then scan it with an
> OCR
> > > > program, is that illegal?  Yet I technically would have displayed the
> > > > document in another form.  So I also suppose it is illegal to magnify
> the
> > > > font on the screen so that a low vision person can read it?  Godf
> forbid!
> > >
> > > A friend of mine said that he's seen a copyright licence for a
> particular
> > > PDF document that said that the person did not have the right to read
> the
> > > document aloud.
> > >
> > > Fair use will get killed off if we let it.
> > >
> > > Geoff.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Janina Sajka, Director
> > Technology Research and Development
> > Governmental Relations Group
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[Janina Sajka]

By the way, I do agree with you Amanda. I believe blind people have the 
greater right to read, which is why I have no problem explaining to people 
how to get access to PDF files.
 On Sat, 19 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:

> Janina,
> 
> Appears that Geof muddied the waters somewhat as he took my statements out
> of context and inserted his own.  This is why I don't like this form of
> responding to email because it is very easy to distort what the original
> sender intended to say.
> 
> I was basically playing devil's advocate because it goes withoug saying that
> a Copyright is just that and basically unless one modifies the content and
> mis-represents it's intent, there is little that can be done to dictate to
> the end user what he or she does with the information provided.  If no
> ill-intent is demonstrated, it's really in the gray area of what defines the
> boundaries of enforceable law.  This is why I feel certain that if someone
> developed a program which enabled .pdf to be accessed via a Screen Reader or
> other technologies intended for use by an individual who is blind, vision
> impaired or print disabled, that Adobe would have a lot of work to do to
> over-rule access to information which is already provided for under the law
> versus the burden of proof necessary to justify that as persons who need to
> utilize sed information, that we have any other intent.
> 
> Amanda Lee
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 10:21 AM
> Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.
> 
> 
> > Let's be clear about this. Whatever you read in any copyright statement is
> > valid only if it falls within the law goveerning copyright. Congress and
> > the courts decide what the law is in the U.S., not copyright holders.
> > Silly statements such as the one below about reading aloud are exactly the
> > kind of industry over-reaching that's going to get the DMCA reopened in
> > Congress one of these days.
> >  On Sat, 19 Jan 2002, Geoff Shang wrote:
> >
> > > On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:
> > >
> > > > So if I have a colleague print the document and I then scan it with an
> OCR
> > > > program, is that illegal?  Yet I technically would have displayed the
> > > > document in another form.  So I also suppose it is illegal to magnify
> the
> > > > font on the screen so that a low vision person can read it?  Godf
> forbid!
> > >
> > > A friend of mine said that he's seen a copyright licence for a
> particular
> > > PDF document that said that the person did not have the right to read
> the
> > > document aloud.
> > >
> > > Fair use will get killed off if we let it.
> > >
> > > Geoff.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Janina Sajka, Director
> > Technology Research and Development
> > Governmental Relations Group
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> > Chair, Accessibility SIG
> > Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
> > http://www.openebook.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[Janina Sajka]

Geoff:

Do you remember where you saw that copyright prohibition against reading 
aloud? I'd like to start a file of outrageous copyright claims to use with 
the good folks on Capitol Hill.


-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[Geoff Shang]

On Sat, 19 Jan 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:

> Geoff:
>
> Do you remember where you saw that copyright prohibition against reading
> aloud? I'd like to start a file of outrageous copyright claims to use with
> the good folks on Capitol Hill.

I was told about it by a friend who is likely to remember where they saw
it.  Will ask.

Geoff.

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[Geoff Shang]

Hi Amanda:

On Sat, 19 Jan 2002, Amanda Lee wrote:

> Appears that Geof muddied the waters somewhat as he took my statements out
> of context and inserted his own.

I didn't mean to change the context of what you were saying, perhaps I did
not make my own context clear.  It was obvious to me that what you were
saying was a list of restrictions that could not be enforced, and I was
merely adding another one that I'd heard.  It is folly for anyone to think
that they can withdraw your right to read the document in this way.  It is
also crazy for anyone to think that access to a text-only, often poorly
formatted version of a locked PDF document is going to be of any threat to
them.

Geoff.

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[Geoff Shang]

On Sat, 19 Jan 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:

> Let's be clear about this. Whatever you read in any copyright statement is
> valid only if it falls within the law goveerning copyright.

Definitely.   I just think it's apauling that anyone thinks that they can
withhold such a basic right as reading aloud.

> Silly statements such as the one below about reading aloud are exactly the
> kind of industry over-reaching that's going to get the DMCA reopened in
> Congress one of these days.

Yeah, I've been reading about mutterings along these lines for the past few
weeks now.  Bring it on!  IMHO, the copyright situation, particularly in
the USA (which seems to be where it counts these days) is just crazy.  Did
you know that if the 1998 amendment to the copyright act hadn't gone
through that Micky Mouse would have entered the public domain next year?
So it damned well should - they've had a long enough go at it.  But no,
they need to tie it up for another 20 years or something.  Grrrrrr!

As an aside, an article in The Australian last Monday pointed out that
Australia's copyright laws are still life plus 50 years, instead of the
life plus 70 adopted in the USA.  This means that, for example, all of
George Orwell's works are now in the public domain here in Australia, and
some are apparently on the web here.  Of course, it's only legal for
Australians to access it.

Geoff.

Re: Problems with pdf files.

[Thomas Ward]

Hmmmm.... Well, I guess if they want to regulate reading a document out loud
they can add screen readers to the list, because that's exactly what they
do.
I agree. Stupid stuff like that will get the DMCA reopened, or possibly over
turned.

Hypathetically I'd like to know what they would do if a blind Windows user
sent them a nice letter stating that he used a screen reader and Adobe
Acrobat 5 to read the document. Then, ask them if they were going to
procicute because he read it out loud with his computer.

----- Original Message -----
From: Geoff Shang <gshang@uq.net.au>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 7:49 PM
Subject: Re: Problems with pdf files.


> On Sat, 19 Jan 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
>
> > Let's be clear about this. Whatever you read in any copyright statement
is
> > valid only if it falls within the law goveerning copyright.
>
> Definitely.   I just think it's apauling that anyone thinks that they can
> withhold such a basic right as reading aloud.
>
> > Silly statements such as the one below about reading aloud are exactly
the
> > kind of industry over-reaching that's going to get the DMCA reopened in
> > Congress one of these days.
>
> Yeah, I've been reading about mutterings along these lines for the past
few
> weeks now.  Bring it on!  IMHO, the copyright situation, particularly in
> the USA (which seems to be where it counts these days) is just crazy.  Did
> you know that if the 1998 amendment to the copyright act hadn't gone
> through that Micky Mouse would have entered the public domain next year?
> So it damned well should - they've had a long enough go at it.  But no,
> they need to tie it up for another 20 years or something.  Grrrrrr!
>
> As an aside, an article in The Australian last Monday pointed out that
> Australia's copyright laws are still life plus 50 years, instead of the
> life plus 70 adopted in the USA.  This means that, for example, all of
> George Orwell's works are now in the public domain here in Australia, and
> some are apparently on the web here.  Of course, it's only legal for
> Australians to access it.
>
> Geoff.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>