redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup

redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup

[Don Raikes]

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Hi all,

I have been working with RedHat 8.0 for a while now, but now my boss says I need to run redhat advanced server 2.0 because it is what our software is certified on.

Never having to have gone through this nightmare before, how do I get redhat as 2.0 installed without speakup, and how do I add speakup to the kernel once it is there?

Any pointers would be appreciated.
Cheers,

Don Raikes
home office (520) 579=-9481
HQ office (650) 506-9704

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Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup

[Janina Sajka]

Easiest way is probably to get an already patched kernel. "Advanced Server" will be based on one of the standard RH packagings, but I don't recall which one. If it's
7.3, you'd grab the latest kernel for 7.3, for example.

Kernels for 7.3 and 8.0 are still available on the Speakup Modified page via anonymous ftp to www.linux-speakup.org. Once logged in, cd pub/speakup/disks/redhat and
take it from there.

Else, you would grab the kernel-source, patch with the latest stable Speakup 1.5 and compile. The rpm route above is much quicker and certainly easier if you've not
compiled a kernel before.




Don Raikes writes:
> From: "Don Raikes" <don.raikes@oracle.com>
> 
>    Hi all,
>     
>    I have been working with RedHat 8.0 for a while now, but now my boss says
>    I need to run redhat advanced server 2.0 because it is what our software
>    is certified on.
>     
>    Never having to have gone through this nightmare before, how do I get
>    redhat as 2.0 installed without speakup, and how do I add speakup to the
>    kernel once it is there?
>     
>    Any pointers would be appreciated.
>    Cheers,
>     
>    Don Raikes
>    home office (520) 579=-9481
>    HQ office (650) 506-9704

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup

[Aaron Howell]

Actually, its based on RedHat 7.1,
and nothing is standard.
You can't just use a 7.1 kernel, because the RH advanced server kernel is *very* different.
Coupled with the fact that you can't actually give out the software to say, Kirk, for patching, your best bet might initially be sighted assistance, then a hand patched kernel (if you can even get it to patch).
That's going to be a fun one, I'd be interested in your success or otherwise because I have to face that beast at work here soon too.
Regards
Aaron
On Tue, Apr 15, 2003 at 10:23:33PM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> Easiest way is probably to get an already patched kernel. "Advanced Server" will be based on one of the standard RH packagings, but I don't recall which one. If it's
> 7.3, you'd grab the latest kernel for 7.3, for example.
> 
> Kernels for 7.3 and 8.0 are still available on the Speakup Modified page via anonymous ftp to www.linux-speakup.org. Once logged in, cd pub/speakup/disks/redhat and
> take it from there.
> 
> Else, you would grab the kernel-source, patch with the latest stable Speakup 1.5 and compile. The rpm route above is much quicker and certainly easier if you've not
> compiled a kernel before.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don Raikes writes:
> > From: "Don Raikes" <don.raikes@oracle.com>
> > 
> >    Hi all,
> >     
> >    I have been working with RedHat 8.0 for a while now, but now my boss says
> >    I need to run redhat advanced server 2.0 because it is what our software
> >    is certified on.
> >     
> >    Never having to have gone through this nightmare before, how do I get
> >    redhat as 2.0 installed without speakup, and how do I add speakup to the
> >    kernel once it is there?
> >     
> >    Any pointers would be appreciated.
> >    Cheers,
> >     
> >    Don Raikes
> >    home office (520) 579=-9481
> >    HQ office (650) 506-9704
> 
> -- 
> 	
> 				Janina Sajka, Director
> 				Technology Research and Development
> 				Governmental Relations Group
> 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup

[Darrell Shandrow]

Hi Aaron,

Can I assume that it is pretty much impossible to get RedHat to make any
sort of accomodation?  :-)  An accomodation might be to release a copy of
the Kernel, under some sort of NDA, to someone who is qualified to try and
patch it to support Speakup.  Then, RH could keep a copy of the patch Kernel
to provide on request, or otherwise include it on one of the CD-ROMs as a
suplement.


Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems administrator!
A+, CCNA, Network+!
Check out high quality telecommunications services at http://ld.net/?nu7i
All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi Freedom!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Aaron Howell" <aaron@kitten.net.au>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup


> Actually, its based on RedHat 7.1,
> and nothing is standard.
> You can't just use a 7.1 kernel, because the RH advanced server kernel is
*very* different.
> Coupled with the fact that you can't actually give out the software to
say, Kirk, for patching, your best bet might initially be sighted
assistance, then a hand patched kernel (if you can even get it to patch).
> That's going to be a fun one, I'd be interested in your success or
otherwise because I have to face that beast at work here soon too.
> Regards
> Aaron
> On Tue, Apr 15, 2003 at 10:23:33PM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > Easiest way is probably to get an already patched kernel. "Advanced
Server" will be based on one of the standard RH packagings, but I don't
recall which one. If it's
> > 7.3, you'd grab the latest kernel for 7.3, for example.
> >
> > Kernels for 7.3 and 8.0 are still available on the Speakup Modified page
via anonymous ftp to www.linux-speakup.org. Once logged in, cd
pub/speakup/disks/redhat and
> > take it from there.
> >
> > Else, you would grab the kernel-source, patch with the latest stable
Speakup 1.5 and compile. The rpm route above is much quicker and certainly
easier if you've not
> > compiled a kernel before.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Don Raikes writes:
> > > From: "Don Raikes" <don.raikes@oracle.com>
> > >
> > >    Hi all,
> > >
> > >    I have been working with RedHat 8.0 for a while now, but now my
boss says
> > >    I need to run redhat advanced server 2.0 because it is what our
software
> > >    is certified on.
> > >
> > >    Never having to have gone through this nightmare before, how do I
get
> > >    redhat as 2.0 installed without speakup, and how do I add speakup
to the
> > >    kernel once it is there?
> > >
> > >    Any pointers would be appreciated.
> > >    Cheers,
> > >
> > >    Don Raikes
> > >    home office (520) 579=-9481
> > >    HQ office (650) 506-9704
> >
> > --
> >
> > Janina Sajka, Director
> > Technology Research and Development
> > Governmental Relations Group
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup

[Aaron Howell]

Unfortunately, it'll be a cold day in hell before that ever happens.
RH Advanced Server is their premium pay-through-the-nose-and-then-some supported package.
Everything in the RH AS kernel would go through the testsuite from hell
before they'd even think of including it.
The chances of something like Speakup, which isn't even up for consideration for inclusion in the main kernel yet
getting into the Advanced Server kernel are less than none.
Heck, if they won't even let us use speakup in exams, what likelihood do you think there is of them
offering to have it in their premium product.
No, I think any developments that happen on that front will have to wait at least until Speakup is part of the default kernel.
Then it might accidentally make its way into a future release of Advanced Server.
Regards
Aaron
On Tue, Apr 15, 2003 at 08:21:55PM -0700, Darrell Shandrow wrote:
> Hi Aaron,
> 
> Can I assume that it is pretty much impossible to get RedHat to make any
> sort of accomodation?  :-)  An accomodation might be to release a copy of
> the Kernel, under some sort of NDA, to someone who is qualified to try and
> patch it to support Speakup.  Then, RH could keep a copy of the patch Kernel
> to provide on request, or otherwise include it on one of the CD-ROMs as a
> suplement.
> 
> 
> Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
> Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems administrator!
> A+, CCNA, Network+!
> Check out high quality telecommunications services at http://ld.net/?nu7i
> All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi Freedom!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Aaron Howell" <aaron@kitten.net.au>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 8:18 PM
> Subject: Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup
> 
> 
> > Actually, its based on RedHat 7.1,
> > and nothing is standard.
> > You can't just use a 7.1 kernel, because the RH advanced server kernel is
> *very* different.
> > Coupled with the fact that you can't actually give out the software to
> say, Kirk, for patching, your best bet might initially be sighted
> assistance, then a hand patched kernel (if you can even get it to patch).
> > That's going to be a fun one, I'd be interested in your success or
> otherwise because I have to face that beast at work here soon too.
> > Regards
> > Aaron
> > On Tue, Apr 15, 2003 at 10:23:33PM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > Easiest way is probably to get an already patched kernel. "Advanced
> Server" will be based on one of the standard RH packagings, but I don't
> recall which one. If it's
> > > 7.3, you'd grab the latest kernel for 7.3, for example.
> > >
> > > Kernels for 7.3 and 8.0 are still available on the Speakup Modified page
> via anonymous ftp to www.linux-speakup.org. Once logged in, cd
> pub/speakup/disks/redhat and
> > > take it from there.
> > >
> > > Else, you would grab the kernel-source, patch with the latest stable
> Speakup 1.5 and compile. The rpm route above is much quicker and certainly
> easier if you've not
> > > compiled a kernel before.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Don Raikes writes:
> > > > From: "Don Raikes" <don.raikes@oracle.com>
> > > >
> > > >    Hi all,
> > > >
> > > >    I have been working with RedHat 8.0 for a while now, but now my
> boss says
> > > >    I need to run redhat advanced server 2.0 because it is what our
> software
> > > >    is certified on.
> > > >
> > > >    Never having to have gone through this nightmare before, how do I
> get
> > > >    redhat as 2.0 installed without speakup, and how do I add speakup
> to the
> > > >    kernel once it is there?
> > > >
> > > >    Any pointers would be appreciated.
> > > >    Cheers,
> > > >
> > > >    Don Raikes
> > > >    home office (520) 579=-9481
> > > >    HQ office (650) 506-9704
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > Technology Research and Development
> > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > >
> > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup

[Janina Sajka]

Stop making up things.

You were fine until you wrote:

Aaron Howell writes:
> 
> The chances of something like Speakup, which isn't even up for consideration for inclusion in the main kernel yet

You don't know that. So, why do you bother to assert such a thing? It's not even germane to this thread.

What's with all this make believe? What need is it satisfying for you?

I certainly understand that you might feel angry with RH over the way you were treated over your RCE. That makes a lot of sense. But, making things up
by way of some kind of revenge is just inappropriate behavior.

Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup

[Darrell Shandrow]

Hi Janina,

The simple fact of the matter is that RH has set up a level of mistrust with
those of us who have either taken their certification courses or who
advocate for those who have.  Like it or not, RH's actions will be seen in
the light (or darkness) of our experiences.


Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems administrator!
A+, CCNA, Network+!
Check out high quality telecommunications services at http://ld.net/?nu7i
All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi Freedom!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@rednote.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 8:08 AM
Subject: Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup


> Stop making up things.
>
> You were fine until you wrote:
>
> Aaron Howell writes:
> >
> > The chances of something like Speakup, which isn't even up for
consideration for inclusion in the main kernel yet
>
> You don't know that. So, why do you bother to assert such a thing? It's
not even germane to this thread.
>
> What's with all this make believe? What need is it satisfying for you?
>
> I certainly understand that you might feel angry with RH over the way you
were treated over your RCE. That makes a lot of sense. But, making things up
> by way of some kind of revenge is just inappropriate behavior.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup

[Janina Sajka]

This has nothing to do with trust. You don't make up things and state them as fact, when you have no knowledge of any such fact.  The person who does
such things is untrustworthy.

Hmmm, I guess it does have to do with trust, after all. Seems someone here can't be trusted to tell the truth.

Darrell Shandrow writes:
> From: "Darrell Shandrow" <nu7i@azboss.net>
> 
> Hi Janina,
> 
> The simple fact of the matter is that RH has set up a level of mistrust with
> those of us who have either taken their certification courses or who
> advocate for those who have.  Like it or not, RH's actions will be seen in
> the light (or darkness) of our experiences.
> 
> 
> Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
> Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems administrator!
> A+, CCNA, Network+!
> Check out high quality telecommunications services at http://ld.net/?nu7i
> All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi Freedom!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@rednote.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 8:08 AM
> Subject: Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup
> 
> 
> > Stop making up things.
> >
> > You were fine until you wrote:
> >
> > Aaron Howell writes:
> > >
> > > The chances of something like Speakup, which isn't even up for
> consideration for inclusion in the main kernel yet
> >
> > You don't know that. So, why do you bother to assert such a thing? It's
> not even germane to this thread.
> >
> > What's with all this make believe? What need is it satisfying for you?
> >
> > I certainly understand that you might feel angry with RH over the way you
> were treated over your RCE. That makes a lot of sense. But, making things up
> > by way of some kind of revenge is just inappropriate behavior.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup

[Darrell Shandrow]

Hi Janina,

Actually, no, these aren't being portrayed as facts.  Instead, there is a
great deal of speculation resulting from such mistrust of RH's intentions.
This results from the frustration several of us have experienced dealing
with RH.  When that happens, some admittedly unhealthy things tend to
happen.  Like it or not...  That's how some of us feel about the issues...
We're not as likely to sing the praises or say very nice things about our
enemies.




Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems administrator!
A+, CCNA, Network+!
Check out high quality telecommunications services at http://ld.net/?nu7i
All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi Freedom!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@rednote.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 8:45 AM
Subject: Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup


> This has nothing to do with trust. You don't make up things and state them
as fact, when you have no knowledge of any such fact.  The person who does
> such things is untrustworthy.
>
> Hmmm, I guess it does have to do with trust, after all. Seems someone here
can't be trusted to tell the truth.
>
> Darrell Shandrow writes:
> > From: "Darrell Shandrow" <nu7i@azboss.net>
> >
> > Hi Janina,
> >
> > The simple fact of the matter is that RH has set up a level of mistrust
with
> > those of us who have either taken their certification courses or who
> > advocate for those who have.  Like it or not, RH's actions will be seen
in
> > the light (or darkness) of our experiences.
> >
> >
> > Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
> > Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems administrator!
> > A+, CCNA, Network+!
> > Check out high quality telecommunications services at
http://ld.net/?nu7i
> > All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi Freedom!
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@rednote.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 8:08 AM
> > Subject: Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup
> >
> >
> > > Stop making up things.
> > >
> > > You were fine until you wrote:
> > >
> > > Aaron Howell writes:
> > > >
> > > > The chances of something like Speakup, which isn't even up for
> > consideration for inclusion in the main kernel yet
> > >
> > > You don't know that. So, why do you bother to assert such a thing?
It's
> > not even germane to this thread.
> > >
> > > What's with all this make believe? What need is it satisfying for you?
> > >
> > > I certainly understand that you might feel angry with RH over the way
you
> > were treated over your RCE. That makes a lot of sense. But, making
things up
> > > by way of some kind of revenge is just inappropriate behavior.
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup

[Thomas D. Ward]

Even false speculation is unhealthy for this or any other list. Once you
paint a false speculation you smear the truth until you can not tell truth
from falsehood.
This sort of approach is non-productive, the people who need the help, won't
get it, and all they see is infighting on this list.
If you don't have anything good to contribute to a thread about how to help
someone with Red Hat products, and then I say get off your soapbox, and
discontinue all comments.
It is impossible to solve problems with certain members using this list as a
soapbox for spouting off hate mail about Red Hat, flooding the list with
false speculations, and making it their business to wage war with anyone who
doesn't agree with every single word they say.

Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup

[Lorenzo Prince]

I agree 100%.  It's all Linux.  It's all open-source.  It's all GOOD.
Different distros just help different people do different things that they
need to do.  This is why we choose the distro we want.  No need starting
flamewars over a particular distro that for whatever reason doesn't meet
your needs.  Just pick one that does.  That's what it's all about.
Flexibility and choice.  Just be happy that choice is there.

Lorenzo

E Pluribus Unix

Thomas D. Ward staggered into view and mumbled:

> Even false speculation is unhealthy for this or any other list. Once you
> paint a false speculation you smear the truth until you can not tell truth
> from falsehood.
> This sort of approach is non-productive, the people who need the help, won't
> get it, and all they see is infighting on this list.
> If you don't have anything good to contribute to a thread about how to help
> someone with Red Hat products, and then I say get off your soapbox, and
> discontinue all comments.
> It is impossible to solve problems with certain members using this list as a
> soapbox for spouting off hate mail about Red Hat, flooding the list with
> false speculations, and making it their business to wage war with anyone who
> doesn't agree with every single word they say.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup

[Janina Sajka]

Darrell Shandrow writes:
> From: "Darrell Shandrow" <nu7i@azboss.net>
> 
> Hi Janina,
> 
> Actually, no, these aren't being portrayed as facts.

Kindly show me what words in the following phrase indicate opinion, belief, or conjecture:


"which isn't even up for consideration for inclusion in the main kernel"

There's not a wit of speculation in this phrase.  whatsoever. It's a bald assertion of fact.

Furthermore, it's not even germane to the discussion.
  Instead, there is a
> great deal of speculation resulting from such mistrust of RH's intentions.
> This results from the frustration several of us have experienced dealing
> with RH.  When that happens, some admittedly unhealthy things tend to
> happen.  Like it or not...  That's how some of us feel about the issues...
> We're not as likely to sing the praises or say very nice things about our
> enemies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
> Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems administrator!
> A+, CCNA, Network+!
> Check out high quality telecommunications services at http://ld.net/?nu7i
> All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi Freedom!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@rednote.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 8:45 AM
> Subject: Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup
> 
> 
> > This has nothing to do with trust. You don't make up things and state them
> as fact, when you have no knowledge of any such fact.  The person who does
> > such things is untrustworthy.
> >
> > Hmmm, I guess it does have to do with trust, after all. Seems someone here
> can't be trusted to tell the truth.
> >
> > Darrell Shandrow writes:
> > > From: "Darrell Shandrow" <nu7i@azboss.net>
> > >
> > > Hi Janina,
> > >
> > > The simple fact of the matter is that RH has set up a level of mistrust
> with
> > > those of us who have either taken their certification courses or who
> > > advocate for those who have.  Like it or not, RH's actions will be seen
> in
> > > the light (or darkness) of our experiences.
> > >
> > >
> > > Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
> > > Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems administrator!
> > > A+, CCNA, Network+!
> > > Check out high quality telecommunications services at
> http://ld.net/?nu7i
> > > All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi Freedom!
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@rednote.net>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 8:08 AM
> > > Subject: Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup
> > >
> > >
> > > > Stop making up things.
> > > >
> > > > You were fine until you wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Aaron Howell writes:
> > > > >
> > > > > The chances of something like Speakup, which isn't even up for
> > > consideration for inclusion in the main kernel yet
> > > >
> > > > You don't know that. So, why do you bother to assert such a thing?
> It's
> > > not even germane to this thread.
> > > >
> > > > What's with all this make believe? What need is it satisfying for you?
> > > >
> > > > I certainly understand that you might feel angry with RH over the way
> you
> > > were treated over your RCE. That makes a lot of sense. But, making
> things up
> > > > by way of some kind of revenge is just inappropriate behavior.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> > --
> >
> > Janina Sajka, Director
> > Technology Research and Development
> > Governmental Relations Group
> > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup

[Thomas Stivers]

Please take these damn battles off list! We all know where you stand and
for the large group of speakup users who are not redhat users I suspect this
quibbling is becoming somewhat irritating. Thank you.
-- 
Unix is a user friendly operating system. It just picks its friends more
carefully than others.
Thomas Stivers	e-mail: stivers_t@tomass.dyndns.org	gpg: 45CBBABD

Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup

[Luke Davis]

To whom were you speaking?

On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, Thomas Stivers wrote:

> Please take these damn battles off list! We all know where you stand and
> for the large group of speakup users who are not redhat users I suspect this
> quibbling is becoming somewhat irritating. Thank you.
>

Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup

[Thomas Stivers]

On 04/16/03  4:58 PM -0500, Luke Davis wrote:
> To whom were you speaking?

I had replied to another one of these posts which is debating whether or
not redhat is evil or whatever. I am just getting frustrated by the high
signal to noise ratio on this list lately.

--
Unix is a user friendly operating system. It just picks its friends more
carefully than others.
Thomas Stivers	e-mail: stivers_t@tomass.dyndns.org	gpg: 45CBBABD

Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup

[Thomas D. Ward]

The problem here is that untrue clames shouldn't be made on the list unless
there is truth to it.
Weather you like Red Hat or not making up false clames gets nowhere, and can
mislead new users into believing Linux is not a viable access solution.

Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup

[Aaron Howell]

Its simple really,
This wasn't at all an attack on redHat, it was a simple statement of fact.
Speakup _isn't_ part of the default kernel yet, and to the best of my knowledge, its only thus far made it as far as alan Cox's test kernels.
Nothing that could in any way harm the stability of RH Advanced Server has any hope of getting into their kernel.
Unlike the situation with the generic RedHat operating system, this is a good and necessary thing.
The reason being that commercial vendors have spent countless amounts of time testing their software to make sure it functions correctly with the RH Advanced Server kernel,
and to change the kernel in any significant way, (and I dare say RH would consider Speakup to be a significant way)
Would invalidate much of that testing.
Of course every time there's a re-release of RH Advanced server, the validation needs to be re-done against the whole operating system, but the chances of getting something as major as speakup included in an incremental kernel upgrade aren't particularly good.
it, like most other technologies, will probably spend quite a bit of time in either the main linux kernel, or the RedHat modified kernel before it is considered for inclusion in Advanced Server.
This isn't a slight on people with a disability, its a necessary evil to keep AS in a sane state, and RedHat has too much invested in it to not do so.
Yes, I disagree with much of what redHat's done wrt disability support, but in this case they have a good business case for not acting too hastily.
Please try to read what I'm saying in context before you fire off attacks like the below.
Regards
Aaron
On Wed, Apr 16, 2003 at 11:08:36AM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> Stop making up things.
> 
> You were fine until you wrote:
> 
> Aaron Howell writes:
> > 
> > The chances of something like Speakup, which isn't even up for consideration for inclusion in the main kernel yet
> 
> You don't know that. So, why do you bother to assert such a thing? It's not even germane to this thread.
> 
> What's with all this make believe? What need is it satisfying for you?
> 
> I certainly understand that you might feel angry with RH over the way you were treated over your RCE. That makes a lot of sense. But, making things up
> by way of some kind of revenge is just inappropriate behavior.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup

[Luke Davis]

This also answers my question, and makes sense.

On Thu, 17 Apr 2003, Aaron Howell wrote:

> Its simple really,
> This wasn't at all an attack on redHat, it was a simple statement of fact.
> Speakup _isn't_ part of the default kernel yet, and to the best of my knowledge, its only thus far made it as far as alan Cox's test kernels.
> Nothing that could in any way harm the stability of RH Advanced Server has any hope of getting into their kernel.
> Unlike the situation with the generic RedHat operating system, this is a good and necessary thing.
> The reason being that commercial vendors have spent countless amounts of time testing their software to make sure it functions correctly with the RH Advanced Server kernel,
> and to change the kernel in any significant way, (and I dare say RH would consider Speakup to be a significant way)
> Would invalidate much of that testing.
> Of course every time there's a re-release of RH Advanced server, the validation needs to be re-done against the whole operating system, but the chances of getting something as major as speakup included in an incremental kernel upgrade aren't particularly good.
> it, like most other technologies, will probably spend quite a bit of time in either the main linux kernel, or the RedHat modified kernel before it is considered for inclusion in Advanced Server.
> This isn't a slight on people with a disability, its a necessary evil to keep AS in a sane state, and RedHat has too much invested in it to not do so.
> Yes, I disagree with much of what redHat's done wrt disability support, but in this case they have a good business case for not acting too hastily.

Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup

[Lorenzo Prince]

Also, since they had technical issues with Speakup, and had to pull it
from the generic Redhat kernel, it will probably be that much longer
before it can even be considered for the Advanced Server kernel.  It will
have to go through the entire testing process all over again.

Lorenzo

E Pluribus Unix

Luke Davis staggered into view and mumbled:

> This also answers my question, and makes sense.
>
> On Thu, 17 Apr 2003, Aaron Howell wrote:
>
> > Its simple really,
> > This wasn't at all an attack on redHat, it was a simple statement of fact.
> > Speakup _isn't_ part of the default kernel yet, and to the best of my knowledge, its only thus far made it as far as alan Cox's test kernels.
> > Nothing that could in any way harm the stability of RH Advanced Server has any hope of getting into their kernel.
> > Unlike the situation with the generic RedHat operating system, this is a good and necessary thing.
> > The reason being that commercial vendors have spent countless amounts of time testing their software to make sure it functions correctly with the RH Advanced Server kernel,
> > and to change the kernel in any significant way, (and I dare say RH would consider Speakup to be a significant way)
> > Would invalidate much of that testing.
> > Of course every time there's a re-release of RH Advanced server, the validation needs to be re-done against the whole operating system, but the chances of getting something as major as speakup included in an incremental kernel upgrade aren't particularly good.
> > it, like most other technologies, will probably spend quite a bit of time in either the main linux kernel, or the RedHat modified kernel before it is considered for inclusion in Advanced Server.
> > This isn't a slight on people with a disability, its a necessary evil to keep AS in a sane state, and RedHat has too much invested in it to not do so.
> > Yes, I disagree with much of what redHat's done wrt disability support, but in this case they have a good business case for not acting too hastily.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup

[Janina Sajka]

OK. You mean kernel as in kernel.org. I took your comment in context of Red Hat only, as RH has been the hot button item.

In the case of the generic Linux kernel, you are correct. Speakup isn't under consideration, so I apologize for that misunderstanding. 

Not that you were particularly clear--but that's beside the point.

Aaron Howell writes:
> From: Aaron Howell <aaron@kitten.net.au>
> 
> Its simple really,
> This wasn't at all an attack on redHat, it was a simple statement of fact.
> Speakup _isn't_ part of the default kernel yet, and to the best of my knowledge, its only thus far made it as far as alan Cox's test kernels.
> Nothing that could in any way harm the stability of RH Advanced Server has any hope of getting into their kernel.
> Unlike the situation with the generic RedHat operating system, this is a good and necessary thing.
> The reason being that commercial vendors have spent countless amounts of time testing their software to make sure it functions correctly with the RH Advanced Server kernel,
> and to change the kernel in any significant way, (and I dare say RH would consider Speakup to be a significant way)
> Would invalidate much of that testing.
> Of course every time there's a re-release of RH Advanced server, the validation needs to be re-done against the whole operating system, but the chances of getting something as major as speakup included in an incremental kernel upgrade aren't particularly good.
> it, like most other technologies, will probably spend quite a bit of time in either the main linux kernel, or the RedHat modified kernel before it is considered for inclusion in Advanced Server.
> This isn't a slight on people with a disability, its a necessary evil to keep AS in a sane state, and RedHat has too much invested in it to not do so.
> Yes, I disagree with much of what redHat's done wrt disability support, but in this case they have a good business case for not acting too hastily.
> Please try to read what I'm saying in context before you fire off attacks like the below.
> Regards
> Aaron
> On Wed, Apr 16, 2003 at 11:08:36AM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > Stop making up things.
> > 
> > You were fine until you wrote:
> > 
> > Aaron Howell writes:
> > > 
> > > The chances of something like Speakup, which isn't even up for consideration for inclusion in the main kernel yet
> > 
> > You don't know that. So, why do you bother to assert such a thing? It's not even germane to this thread.
> > 
> > What's with all this make believe? What need is it satisfying for you?
> > 
> > I certainly understand that you might feel angry with RH over the way you were treated over your RCE. That makes a lot of sense. But, making things up
> > by way of some kind of revenge is just inappropriate behavior.
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup

[Lorenzo Prince]

Just a minute here.  Are you telling me that Redhat is violating the terms
of the license agreement that covers the Linux kernel by not allowing
their Advanced Server kernel to be patched?  From what I understood of the
GPL, that is a blatent violation of the terms and conditions for
distributing Linux, either modified or unmodified.

Lorenzo

E Pluribus Unix

Darrell Shandrow staggered into view and mumbled:

> Hi Aaron,
>
> Can I assume that it is pretty much impossible to get RedHat to make any
> sort of accomodation?  :-)  An accomodation might be to release a copy of
> the Kernel, under some sort of NDA, to someone who is qualified to try and
> patch it to support Speakup.  Then, RH could keep a copy of the patch Kernel
> to provide on request, or otherwise include it on one of the CD-ROMs as a
> suplement.
>
>
> Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
> Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems administrator!
> A+, CCNA, Network+!
> Check out high quality telecommunications services at http://ld.net/?nu7i
> All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi Freedom!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Aaron Howell" <aaron@kitten.net.au>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 8:18 PM
> Subject: Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup
>
>
> > Actually, its based on RedHat 7.1,
> > and nothing is standard.
> > You can't just use a 7.1 kernel, because the RH advanced server kernel is
> *very* different.
> > Coupled with the fact that you can't actually give out the software to
> say, Kirk, for patching, your best bet might initially be sighted
> assistance, then a hand patched kernel (if you can even get it to patch).
> > That's going to be a fun one, I'd be interested in your success or
> otherwise because I have to face that beast at work here soon too.
> > Regards
> > Aaron
> > On Tue, Apr 15, 2003 at 10:23:33PM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > Easiest way is probably to get an already patched kernel. "Advanced
> Server" will be based on one of the standard RH packagings, but I don't
> recall which one. If it's
> > > 7.3, you'd grab the latest kernel for 7.3, for example.
> > >
> > > Kernels for 7.3 and 8.0 are still available on the Speakup Modified page
> via anonymous ftp to www.linux-speakup.org. Once logged in, cd
> pub/speakup/disks/redhat and
> > > take it from there.
> > >
> > > Else, you would grab the kernel-source, patch with the latest stable
> Speakup 1.5 and compile. The rpm route above is much quicker and certainly
> easier if you've not
> > > compiled a kernel before.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Don Raikes writes:
> > > > From: "Don Raikes" <don.raikes@oracle.com>
> > > >
> > > >    Hi all,
> > > >
> > > >    I have been working with RedHat 8.0 for a while now, but now my
> boss says
> > > >    I need to run redhat advanced server 2.0 because it is what our
> software
> > > >    is certified on.
> > > >
> > > >    Never having to have gone through this nightmare before, how do I
> get
> > > >    redhat as 2.0 installed without speakup, and how do I add speakup
> to the
> > > >    kernel once it is there?
> > > >
> > > >    Any pointers would be appreciated.
> > > >    Cheers,
> > > >
> > > >    Don Raikes
> > > >    home office (520) 579=-9481
> > > >    HQ office (650) 506-9704
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > Technology Research and Development
> > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > >
> > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup

[Aaron Howell]

No, its not.
You're welcome to patch it.
you just can't redistribute your changes.
and they won't patch it for you.
There's no gpl violation, they're just placing their own distribution under a more restrictive license.
Their argument being that, if you want their features, you agree to their license,
or you're free to go and get the linux kernel and do with it what you will.
You _can_ use a standard linux kernel with RH Advanced Server, you just won't get support from RedHat if you do,
and, why pay that much for a product unless you want their support?
Regards
Aaron
On Wed, Apr 16, 2003 at 01:22:05AM -0400, Lorenzo Prince wrote:
> Just a minute here.  Are you telling me that Redhat is violating the terms
> of the license agreement that covers the Linux kernel by not allowing
> their Advanced Server kernel to be patched?  From what I understood of the
> GPL, that is a blatent violation of the terms and conditions for
> distributing Linux, either modified or unmodified.
> 
> Lorenzo
> 
> E Pluribus Unix
> 
> Darrell Shandrow staggered into view and mumbled:
> 
> > Hi Aaron,
> >
> > Can I assume that it is pretty much impossible to get RedHat to make any
> > sort of accomodation?  :-)  An accomodation might be to release a copy of
> > the Kernel, under some sort of NDA, to someone who is qualified to try and
> > patch it to support Speakup.  Then, RH could keep a copy of the patch Kernel
> > to provide on request, or otherwise include it on one of the CD-ROMs as a
> > suplement.
> >
> >
> > Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
> > Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems administrator!
> > A+, CCNA, Network+!
> > Check out high quality telecommunications services at http://ld.net/?nu7i
> > All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi Freedom!
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Aaron Howell" <aaron@kitten.net.au>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 8:18 PM
> > Subject: Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup
> >
> >
> > > Actually, its based on RedHat 7.1,
> > > and nothing is standard.
> > > You can't just use a 7.1 kernel, because the RH advanced server kernel is
> > *very* different.
> > > Coupled with the fact that you can't actually give out the software to
> > say, Kirk, for patching, your best bet might initially be sighted
> > assistance, then a hand patched kernel (if you can even get it to patch).
> > > That's going to be a fun one, I'd be interested in your success or
> > otherwise because I have to face that beast at work here soon too.
> > > Regards
> > > Aaron
> > > On Tue, Apr 15, 2003 at 10:23:33PM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > > Easiest way is probably to get an already patched kernel. "Advanced
> > Server" will be based on one of the standard RH packagings, but I don't
> > recall which one. If it's
> > > > 7.3, you'd grab the latest kernel for 7.3, for example.
> > > >
> > > > Kernels for 7.3 and 8.0 are still available on the Speakup Modified page
> > via anonymous ftp to www.linux-speakup.org. Once logged in, cd
> > pub/speakup/disks/redhat and
> > > > take it from there.
> > > >
> > > > Else, you would grab the kernel-source, patch with the latest stable
> > Speakup 1.5 and compile. The rpm route above is much quicker and certainly
> > easier if you've not
> > > > compiled a kernel before.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Don Raikes writes:
> > > > > From: "Don Raikes" <don.raikes@oracle.com>
> > > > >
> > > > >    Hi all,
> > > > >
> > > > >    I have been working with RedHat 8.0 for a while now, but now my
> > boss says
> > > > >    I need to run redhat advanced server 2.0 because it is what our
> > software
> > > > >    is certified on.
> > > > >
> > > > >    Never having to have gone through this nightmare before, how do I
> > get
> > > > >    redhat as 2.0 installed without speakup, and how do I add speakup
> > to the
> > > > >    kernel once it is there?
> > > > >
> > > > >    Any pointers would be appreciated.
> > > > >    Cheers,
> > > > >
> > > > >    Don Raikes
> > > > >    home office (520) 579=-9481
> > > > >    HQ office (650) 506-9704
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > > Technology Research and Development
> > > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > >
> > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup

[Buddy Brannan]

On Wed, Apr 16, 2003 at 03:32:24PM +1000, Aaron Howell wrote:
> No, its not.
> You're welcome to patch it.
> you just can't redistribute your changes.

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT

Nope, that's still a violation of the GPL. 

-- 
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV/3   | "And if the ground yawned,
Phone: (814) 455-7333     | I'd step to the side and say,
Email: davros@ycardz.com  | "Hey ground! I'm nobody's lunch!"
http://www.ycardz.com/    | --Eddie From Ohio

Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup

[Thomas D. Ward]

Questions such as this are best directed at Red Hat. Which would know more
about their Advanced Server than any of us.


----- Original Message -----
From: Lorenzo Prince <lorenzo@princenet.sytes.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 1:22 AM
Subject: Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup


> Just a minute here.  Are you telling me that Redhat is violating the terms
> of the license agreement that covers the Linux kernel by not allowing
> their Advanced Server kernel to be patched?  From what I understood of the
> GPL, that is a blatent violation of the terms and conditions for
> distributing Linux, either modified or unmodified.
>
> Lorenzo
>
> E Pluribus Unix
>
> Darrell Shandrow staggered into view and mumbled:
>
> > Hi Aaron,
> >
> > Can I assume that it is pretty much impossible to get RedHat to make any
> > sort of accomodation?  :-)  An accomodation might be to release a copy
of
> > the Kernel, under some sort of NDA, to someone who is qualified to try
and
> > patch it to support Speakup.  Then, RH could keep a copy of the patch
Kernel
> > to provide on request, or otherwise include it on one of the CD-ROMs as
a
> > suplement.
> >
> >
> > Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
> > Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems administrator!
> > A+, CCNA, Network+!
> > Check out high quality telecommunications services at
http://ld.net/?nu7i
> > All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi Freedom!
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Aaron Howell" <aaron@kitten.net.au>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 8:18 PM
> > Subject: Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup
> >
> >
> > > Actually, its based on RedHat 7.1,
> > > and nothing is standard.
> > > You can't just use a 7.1 kernel, because the RH advanced server kernel
is
> > *very* different.
> > > Coupled with the fact that you can't actually give out the software to
> > say, Kirk, for patching, your best bet might initially be sighted
> > assistance, then a hand patched kernel (if you can even get it to
patch).
> > > That's going to be a fun one, I'd be interested in your success or
> > otherwise because I have to face that beast at work here soon too.
> > > Regards
> > > Aaron
> > > On Tue, Apr 15, 2003 at 10:23:33PM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > > Easiest way is probably to get an already patched kernel. "Advanced
> > Server" will be based on one of the standard RH packagings, but I don't
> > recall which one. If it's
> > > > 7.3, you'd grab the latest kernel for 7.3, for example.
> > > >
> > > > Kernels for 7.3 and 8.0 are still available on the Speakup Modified
page
> > via anonymous ftp to www.linux-speakup.org. Once logged in, cd
> > pub/speakup/disks/redhat and
> > > > take it from there.
> > > >
> > > > Else, you would grab the kernel-source, patch with the latest stable
> > Speakup 1.5 and compile. The rpm route above is much quicker and
certainly
> > easier if you've not
> > > > compiled a kernel before.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Don Raikes writes:
> > > > > From: "Don Raikes" <don.raikes@oracle.com>
> > > > >
> > > > >    Hi all,
> > > > >
> > > > >    I have been working with RedHat 8.0 for a while now, but now my
> > boss says
> > > > >    I need to run redhat advanced server 2.0 because it is what our
> > software
> > > > >    is certified on.
> > > > >
> > > > >    Never having to have gone through this nightmare before, how do
I
> > get
> > > > >    redhat as 2.0 installed without speakup, and how do I add
speakup
> > to the
> > > > >    kernel once it is there?
> > > > >
> > > > >    Any pointers would be appreciated.
> > > > >    Cheers,
> > > > >
> > > > >    Don Raikes
> > > > >    home office (520) 579=-9481
> > > > >    HQ office (650) 506-9704
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > > Technology Research and Development
> > > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > >
> > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup

[Buddy Brannan]

Wait a second.

What's this about Red Hat kernels and NDA's?

No one can make any proprietary (non-free) copies of the kernel
without violating the GPL. Now that doesn't mean that distribution
can't be limited by some artificial means...i.e. you don't get it
unless you do X, Y, or Z, but once you have it, there isn't anything
to stop you from redistributing it, modifying it, etc. (Source has to
be provided in some fashion, after all.) Am I misunderstanding
something important here?
-- 
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV/3   | "And if the ground yawned,
Phone: (814) 455-7333     | I'd step to the side and say,
Email: davros@ycardz.com  | "Hey ground! I'm nobody's lunch!"
http://www.ycardz.com/    | --Eddie From Ohio

Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup

[William F. Acker WB2FLW +1-303-722-7209]

Aaron:  have you ever heard of the GPL??  For your hacking pleasure: 
ftp://updates.redhat.com/enterprise/2.1AS/en/os/SRPMS/kernel-2.4.18-E.25.src.rpm
Now that I kno that people are interested in AS, I'll see if I can hack 
Speakup into the kernel.  BTW, the source for the rest of the distro is 
available also.

          HTH.
-- 
          Bill in Denver

On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, Aaron Howell wrote:

> Actually, its based on RedHat 7.1,
> and nothing is standard.
> You can't just use a 7.1 kernel, because the RH advanced server kernel is *very* different.
> Coupled with the fact that you can't actually give out the software to say, Kirk, for patching, your best bet might initially be sighted assistance, then a hand patched kernel (if you can even get it to patch).
> That's going to be a fun one, I'd be interested in your success or otherwise because I have to face that beast at work here soon too.
> Regards
> Aaron
> On Tue, Apr 15, 2003 at 10:23:33PM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > Easiest way is probably to get an already patched kernel. "Advanced Server" will be based on one of the standard RH packagings, but I don't recall which one. If it's
> > 7.3, you'd grab the latest kernel for 7.3, for example.
> > 
> > Kernels for 7.3 and 8.0 are still available on the Speakup Modified page via anonymous ftp to www.linux-speakup.org. Once logged in, cd pub/speakup/disks/redhat and
> > take it from there.
> > 
> > Else, you would grab the kernel-source, patch with the latest stable Speakup 1.5 and compile. The rpm route above is much quicker and certainly easier if you've not
> > compiled a kernel before.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Don Raikes writes:
> > > From: "Don Raikes" <don.raikes@oracle.com>
> > > 
> > >    Hi all,
> > >     
> > >    I have been working with RedHat 8.0 for a while now, but now my boss says
> > >    I need to run redhat advanced server 2.0 because it is what our software
> > >    is certified on.
> > >     
> > >    Never having to have gone through this nightmare before, how do I get
> > >    redhat as 2.0 installed without speakup, and how do I add speakup to the
> > >    kernel once it is there?
> > >     
> > >    Any pointers would be appreciated.
> > >    Cheers,
> > >     
> > >    Don Raikes
> > >    home office (520) 579=-9481
> > >    HQ office (650) 506-9704
> > 
> > -- 
> > 	
> > 				Janina Sajka, Director
> > 				Technology Research and Development
> > 				Governmental Relations Group
> > 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > 
> > Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup

[Aaron Howell]

Hmmm, its just that our local mirror doesn't mirror enterprise updates apparently.
Hmmm. oh well, i stand corrected.
Aaron
On Tue, Apr 15, 2003 at 11:53:05PM -0600, William F. Acker WB2FLW +1-303-722-7209 wrote:
> Aaron:  have you ever heard of the GPL??  For your hacking pleasure: 
> ftp://updates.redhat.com/enterprise/2.1AS/en/os/SRPMS/kernel-2.4.18-E.25.src.rpm
> Now that I kno that people are interested in AS, I'll see if I can hack 
> Speakup into the kernel.  BTW, the source for the rest of the distro is 
> available also.
> 
>           HTH.
> -- 
>           Bill in Denver
> 
> On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, Aaron Howell wrote:
> 
> > Actually, its based on RedHat 7.1,
> > and nothing is standard.
> > You can't just use a 7.1 kernel, because the RH advanced server kernel is *very* different.
> > Coupled with the fact that you can't actually give out the software to say, Kirk, for patching, your best bet might initially be sighted assistance, then a hand patched kernel (if you can even get it to patch).
> > That's going to be a fun one, I'd be interested in your success or otherwise because I have to face that beast at work here soon too.
> > Regards
> > Aaron
> > On Tue, Apr 15, 2003 at 10:23:33PM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > Easiest way is probably to get an already patched kernel. "Advanced Server" will be based on one of the standard RH packagings, but I don't recall which one. If it's
> > > 7.3, you'd grab the latest kernel for 7.3, for example.
> > > 
> > > Kernels for 7.3 and 8.0 are still available on the Speakup Modified page via anonymous ftp to www.linux-speakup.org. Once logged in, cd pub/speakup/disks/redhat and
> > > take it from there.
> > > 
> > > Else, you would grab the kernel-source, patch with the latest stable Speakup 1.5 and compile. The rpm route above is much quicker and certainly easier if you've not
> > > compiled a kernel before.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Don Raikes writes:
> > > > From: "Don Raikes" <don.raikes@oracle.com>
> > > > 
> > > >    Hi all,
> > > >     
> > > >    I have been working with RedHat 8.0 for a while now, but now my boss says
> > > >    I need to run redhat advanced server 2.0 because it is what our software
> > > >    is certified on.
> > > >     
> > > >    Never having to have gone through this nightmare before, how do I get
> > > >    redhat as 2.0 installed without speakup, and how do I add speakup to the
> > > >    kernel once it is there?
> > > >     
> > > >    Any pointers would be appreciated.
> > > >    Cheers,
> > > >     
> > > >    Don Raikes
> > > >    home office (520) 579=-9481
> > > >    HQ office (650) 506-9704
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > 	
> > > 				Janina Sajka, Director
> > > 				Technology Research and Development
> > > 				Governmental Relations Group
> > > 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > 
> > > Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup

[Thomas D. Ward]

Thanks Bill. Let us know what you come up with. Having an rpm for RH
advanced server  with speakup would be awesome.

----- Original Message -----
From: William F. Acker WB2FLW +1-303-722-7209 <wacker@octothorp.org>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 1:53 AM
Subject: Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup


> Aaron:  have you ever heard of the GPL??  For your hacking pleasure:
>
ftp://updates.redhat.com/enterprise/2.1AS/en/os/SRPMS/kernel-2.4.18-E.25.src
.rpm
> Now that I kno that people are interested in AS, I'll see if I can hack
> Speakup into the kernel.  BTW, the source for the rest of the distro is
> available also.
>
>           HTH.
> --
>           Bill in Denver
>
> On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, Aaron Howell wrote:
>
> > Actually, its based on RedHat 7.1,
> > and nothing is standard.
> > You can't just use a 7.1 kernel, because the RH advanced server kernel
is *very* different.
> > Coupled with the fact that you can't actually give out the software to
say, Kirk, for patching, your best bet might initially be sighted
assistance, then a hand patched kernel (if you can even get it to patch).
> > That's going to be a fun one, I'd be interested in your success or
otherwise because I have to face that beast at work here soon too.
> > Regards
> > Aaron
> > On Tue, Apr 15, 2003 at 10:23:33PM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > Easiest way is probably to get an already patched kernel. "Advanced
Server" will be based on one of the standard RH packagings, but I don't
recall which one. If it's
> > > 7.3, you'd grab the latest kernel for 7.3, for example.
> > >
> > > Kernels for 7.3 and 8.0 are still available on the Speakup Modified
page via anonymous ftp to www.linux-speakup.org. Once logged in, cd
pub/speakup/disks/redhat and
> > > take it from there.
> > >
> > > Else, you would grab the kernel-source, patch with the latest stable
Speakup 1.5 and compile. The rpm route above is much quicker and certainly
easier if you've not
> > > compiled a kernel before.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Don Raikes writes:
> > > > From: "Don Raikes" <don.raikes@oracle.com>
> > > >
> > > >    Hi all,
> > > >
> > > >    I have been working with RedHat 8.0 for a while now, but now my
boss says
> > > >    I need to run redhat advanced server 2.0 because it is what our
software
> > > >    is certified on.
> > > >
> > > >    Never having to have gone through this nightmare before, how do I
get
> > > >    redhat as 2.0 installed without speakup, and how do I add speakup
to the
> > > >    kernel once it is there?
> > > >
> > > >    Any pointers would be appreciated.
> > > >    Cheers,
> > > >
> > > >    Don Raikes
> > > >    home office (520) 579=-9481
> > > >    HQ office (650) 506-9704
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > Technology Research and Development
> > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > >
> > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup

[Janina Sajka]

I guess if I wanted to twist the knife I could ask whether or not RH asks questions about the GPL on their RCE.

William F. Acker writes:
> From: "William F. Acker WB2FLW +1-303-722-7209" <wacker@octothorp.org>
> 
> Aaron:  have you ever heard of the GPL??  For your hacking pleasure: 
> ftp://updates.redhat.com/enterprise/2.1AS/en/os/SRPMS/kernel-2.4.18-E.25.src.rpm
> Now that I kno that people are interested in AS, I'll see if I can hack 
> Speakup into the kernel.  BTW, the source for the rest of the distro is 
> available also.
> 
>           HTH.
> -- 
>           Bill in Denver
> 
> On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, Aaron Howell wrote:
> 
> > Actually, its based on RedHat 7.1,
> > and nothing is standard.
> > You can't just use a 7.1 kernel, because the RH advanced server kernel is *very* different.
> > Coupled with the fact that you can't actually give out the software to say, Kirk, for patching, your best bet might initially be sighted assistance, then a hand patched kernel (if you can even get it to patch).
> > That's going to be a fun one, I'd be interested in your success or otherwise because I have to face that beast at work here soon too.
> > Regards
> > Aaron
> > On Tue, Apr 15, 2003 at 10:23:33PM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > Easiest way is probably to get an already patched kernel. "Advanced Server" will be based on one of the standard RH packagings, but I don't recall which one. If it's
> > > 7.3, you'd grab the latest kernel for 7.3, for example.
> > > 
> > > Kernels for 7.3 and 8.0 are still available on the Speakup Modified page via anonymous ftp to www.linux-speakup.org. Once logged in, cd pub/speakup/disks/redhat and
> > > take it from there.
> > > 
> > > Else, you would grab the kernel-source, patch with the latest stable Speakup 1.5 and compile. The rpm route above is much quicker and certainly easier if you've not
> > > compiled a kernel before.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Don Raikes writes:
> > > > From: "Don Raikes" <don.raikes@oracle.com>
> > > > 
> > > >    Hi all,
> > > >     
> > > >    I have been working with RedHat 8.0 for a while now, but now my boss says
> > > >    I need to run redhat advanced server 2.0 because it is what our software
> > > >    is certified on.
> > > >     
> > > >    Never having to have gone through this nightmare before, how do I get
> > > >    redhat as 2.0 installed without speakup, and how do I add speakup to the
> > > >    kernel once it is there?
> > > >     
> > > >    Any pointers would be appreciated.
> > > >    Cheers,
> > > >     
> > > >    Don Raikes
> > > >    home office (520) 579=-9481
> > > >    HQ office (650) 506-9704
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > 	
> > > 				Janina Sajka, Director
> > > 				Technology Research and Development
> > > 				Governmental Relations Group
> > > 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > 
> > > Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup

[Darrell Shandrow]

Hi Janina and Bill,

I'm quite surprised that RH actually abides by the GPL in its commercial
products.  But, now that I review the GPL, I guess they don't have a choice
if they want to use just about anything Linux, including the Linux kernel.
Kewl!  There we go, then.  We can make our own access.  Believe it or not, I
actually have no trouble with RH not including Speakup, since there are ways
for us to include it ourselves.  I'd much rather RH do nothing to special to
include access tech in their distributions if it meant they would clean up
their access procedures for certification and training.

Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems administrator!
A+, CCNA, Network+!
Check out high quality telecommunications services at http://ld.net/?nu7i
All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi Freedom!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@rednote.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 8:12 AM
Subject: Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup


> I guess if I wanted to twist the knife I could ask whether or not RH asks
questions about the GPL on their RCE.
>
> William F. Acker writes:
> > From: "William F. Acker WB2FLW +1-303-722-7209" <wacker@octothorp.org>
> >
> > Aaron:  have you ever heard of the GPL??  For your hacking pleasure:
> >
ftp://updates.redhat.com/enterprise/2.1AS/en/os/SRPMS/kernel-2.4.18-E.25.src
.rpm
> > Now that I kno that people are interested in AS, I'll see if I can hack
> > Speakup into the kernel.  BTW, the source for the rest of the distro is
> > available also.
> >
> >           HTH.
> > --
> >           Bill in Denver
> >
> > On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, Aaron Howell wrote:
> >
> > > Actually, its based on RedHat 7.1,
> > > and nothing is standard.
> > > You can't just use a 7.1 kernel, because the RH advanced server kernel
is *very* different.
> > > Coupled with the fact that you can't actually give out the software to
say, Kirk, for patching, your best bet might initially be sighted
assistance, then a hand patched kernel (if you can even get it to patch).
> > > That's going to be a fun one, I'd be interested in your success or
otherwise because I have to face that beast at work here soon too.
> > > Regards
> > > Aaron
> > > On Tue, Apr 15, 2003 at 10:23:33PM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > > Easiest way is probably to get an already patched kernel. "Advanced
Server" will be based on one of the standard RH packagings, but I don't
recall which one. If it's
> > > > 7.3, you'd grab the latest kernel for 7.3, for example.
> > > >
> > > > Kernels for 7.3 and 8.0 are still available on the Speakup Modified
page via anonymous ftp to www.linux-speakup.org. Once logged in, cd
pub/speakup/disks/redhat and
> > > > take it from there.
> > > >
> > > > Else, you would grab the kernel-source, patch with the latest stable
Speakup 1.5 and compile. The rpm route above is much quicker and certainly
easier if you've not
> > > > compiled a kernel before.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Don Raikes writes:
> > > > > From: "Don Raikes" <don.raikes@oracle.com>
> > > > >
> > > > >    Hi all,
> > > > >
> > > > >    I have been working with RedHat 8.0 for a while now, but now my
boss says
> > > > >    I need to run redhat advanced server 2.0 because it is what our
software
> > > > >    is certified on.
> > > > >
> > > > >    Never having to have gone through this nightmare before, how do
I get
> > > > >    redhat as 2.0 installed without speakup, and how do I add
speakup to the
> > > > >    kernel once it is there?
> > > > >
> > > > >    Any pointers would be appreciated.
> > > > >    Cheers,
> > > > >
> > > > >    Don Raikes
> > > > >    home office (520) 579=-9481
> > > > >    HQ office (650) 506-9704
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > > Technology Research and Development
> > > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > >
> > > > Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup

[Buddy Brannan]

On Wed, Apr 16, 2003 at 08:39:17AM -0700, Darrell Shandrow wrote:
But, now that I review the GPL, I guess they don't have a choice
> if they want to use just about anything Linux, including the Linux kernel.

Umm. The only thing that *is* Linux is the kernel. Everything else
(nearly everything else, anyway) is GNU. 
-- 
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV/3   | "And if the ground yawned,
Phone: (814) 455-7333     | I'd step to the side and say,
Email: davros@ycardz.com  | "Hey ground! I'm nobody's lunch!"
http://www.ycardz.com/    | --Eddie From Ohio

Re: redHat advanced server 2.0 and speakup

[Aaron Howell]

you could, but we wouldn't be able to tell you.
Rh Linux might be subject to the GPL, but the exams certainly aren't.
Regards
Aaron
On Wed, Apr 16, 2003 at 11:12:55AM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> I guess if I wanted to twist the knife I could ask whether or not RH asks questions about the GPL on their RCE.
> 
> William F. Acker writes:
> > From: "William F. Acker WB2FLW +1-303-722-7209" <wacker@octothorp.org>
> > 
> > Aaron:  have you ever heard of the GPL??  For your hacking pleasure: 
> > ftp://updates.redhat.com/enterprise/2.1AS/en/os/SRPMS/kernel-2.4.18-E.25.src.rpm
> > Now that I kno that people are interested in AS, I'll see if I can hack 
> > Speakup into the kernel.  BTW, the source for the rest of the distro is 
> > available also.
> > 
> >           HTH.
> > -- 
> >           Bill in Denver
> > 
> > On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, Aaron Howell wrote:
> > 
> > > Actually, its based on RedHat 7.1,
> > > and nothing is standard.
> > > You can't just use a 7.1 kernel, because the RH advanced server kernel is *very* different.
> > > Coupled with the fact that you can't actually give out the software to say, Kirk, for patching, your best bet might initially be sighted assistance, then a hand patched kernel (if you can even get it to patch).
> > > That's going to be a fun one, I'd be interested in your success or otherwise because I have to face that beast at work here soon too.
> > > Regards
> > > Aaron
> > > On Tue, Apr 15, 2003 at 10:23:33PM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > > > Easiest way is probably to get an already patched kernel. "Advanced Server" will be based on one of the standard RH packagings, but I don't recall which one. If it's
> > > > 7.3, you'd grab the latest kernel for 7.3, for example.
> > > > 
> > > > Kernels for 7.3 and 8.0 are still available on the Speakup Modified page via anonymous ftp to www.linux-speakup.org. Once logged in, cd pub/speakup/disks/redhat and
> > > > take it from there.
> > > > 
> > > > Else, you would grab the kernel-source, patch with the latest stable Speakup 1.5 and compile. The rpm route above is much quicker and certainly easier if you've not
> > > > compiled a kernel before.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Don Raikes writes:
> > > > > From: "Don Raikes" <don.raikes@oracle.com>
> > > > > 
> > > > >    Hi all,
> > > > >     
> > > > >    I have been working with RedHat 8.0 for a while now, but now my boss says
> > > > >    I need to run redhat advanced server 2.0 because it is what our software
> > > > >    is certified on.
> > > > >     
> > > > >    Never having to have gone through this nightmare before, how do I get
> > > > >    redhat as 2.0 installed without speakup, and how do I add speakup to the
> > > > >    kernel once it is there?
> > > > >     
> > > > >    Any pointers would be appreciated.
> > > > >    Cheers,
> > > > >     
> > > > >    Don Raikes
> > > > >    home office (520) 579=-9481
> > > > >    HQ office (650) 506-9704
> > > > 
> > > > -- 
> > > > 	
> > > > 				Janina Sajka, Director
> > > > 				Technology Research and Development
> > > > 				Governmental Relations Group
> > > > 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > > > 
> > > > Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> -- 
> 	
> 				Janina Sajka, Director
> 				Technology Research and Development
> 				Governmental Relations Group
> 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup