Re: Newbie questions about booting Slackware

Re: Newbie questions about booting Slackware

[Debee Norling]

Thank you Greg and Chuck for patiently answering my silly questions. I've
never been one of those people who just likes to memorize commands; I want
to know why I'm typing something!

So are Kernel image labels  pointing to some part of lilo.conf then, and is
this why the commands vary so widely?

And how can "mount root=/hda1" work for a start command if a kernel has to
load before there's any mount command to call?



       --   Debee
(Deborah Norling)
Alternate Media Specialist
DeAnza College
Phone: 408-864-5815
       <MailTo: norlingdeborah@fhda.edu>

Re: Newbie questions about booting Slackware

[Jacob Schmude]

Hi

On Tue, 11 May 2004, Debee Norling wrote:

> So are Kernel image labels  pointing to some part of lilo.conf then, and is
> this why the commands vary so widely?
In a sense, yes. Kernel image labels are what LILO uses to tell the system
which kernel to load. You don't type in the image file name to lilo, you
use its label. Labels can do all sorts of things, passing certain
kernel parameters based on the label is quite common. They differ widely
because different distributions have different labels they like to use.
> And how can "mount root=/hda1" work for a start command if a kernel has to
> load before there's any mount command to call?
In this case, the kernel image you're loading is labeled "mount". You're
not actually issuing a mount command, that's simply what the kernel image
is labeled. The root=/dev/hda1 is a parameter which tells the kernel where
your root partition is.

Re: Newbie questions about booting Slackware

[Gregory Nowak]

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No, kernel image labels are not pointing to a part of lilo.conf. Think
of them as shortcuts to specifying a kernel image to boot and its
parameters. Instead of typing something like vmlinux root=/dev/ram0,
just typing ramdisk automatically tells lilo to load the kernel image
and pass it the kernel parameters specified in the ramdisk section of
lilo.conf.

As for your mount question, you're not calling any mount command. All
you're doing here is specifying the mount label to lilo, which in turn
specifies kernel parameters specific to booting a root file system off
a hard disk, as opposed to booting a file system off of a ramdisk. The
root=/dev/hda1 is really a kernel parameter called root, which tells
the kernel where to find the root file system at. The reason you have
to specify it is because the mount label doesn't specify the root
parameter, since it naturally won't know where you installed your root
file system.

Greg


On Tue, May 11, 2004 at 11:49:14AM -0700, Debee Norling wrote:
> Thank you Greg and Chuck for patiently answering my silly questions. I've
> never been one of those people who just likes to memorize commands; I want
> to know why I'm typing something!
> 
> So are Kernel image labels  pointing to some part of lilo.conf then, and is
> this why the commands vary so widely?
> 
> And how can "mount root=/hda1" work for a start command if a kernel has to
> load before there's any mount command to call?
> 
> 
> 
>        --   Debee
> (Deborah Norling)
> Alternate Media Specialist
> DeAnza College
> Phone: 408-864-5815
>        <MailTo: norlingdeborah@fhda.edu>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> !DSPAM:40a11fc6197243343921023!
> 
> 

- -- 
Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org

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Newbie questions about booting Slackware

[Debee Norling]

I've read thru the past year of archives, hoping this got answered for some
other newbie. If I missed an answer, feel free to point me to the
appropriate month, rather than feeling like you need to repeat yourself.

I cleared off my desktop and installed Slackware 8.1 on it over the weekend.
I used 8.1 because I had those CDS on hand and it's an old, slow machine.

I made two partitions, one for Linux native-83 and one for Linux-swap-82.
DOS and Windows are no longer on the machine.

The install suggested that because Lilo was dangerous, beginners should skip
installing it -- so I did. But now I can't boot. It appears that you have to
have some sort of boot loader, even if you don't have another operating
system on the disk -- is this correct?

I enjoyed Saqib's fine document on how to install Slackware with speakup,
but it says nothing at all about lilo or booting, except how to boot the
floppy you make with rawrite. The slackware install how-to has lots to say
about booting, but it's for people who want to keep other operating systems
on the hard disk. I didn't, because it sounded too complicated.

I made boot disks, and before I installed, I assembled a collection of
talking, bootable media. I've got the partimage CD, the Systemrescue CD, the
original installation boot and root floppies, the boot floppy I made during
the install, and the Slackware CDS; the first two can be booted.

So I guess I have three questions here. First, I can boot all this media,
but how do I use the Slackware I installed on my hard drive?

Second, how do I get that Slackware to boot, without worrying about
complicated boot managers?

Third, what do all these different boot parameters mean anyway. They are:

For the Partimage CD: linux speakup_synth=xxx
For the System rescue CD: nokeymap speakup_synth=xxx
For the slackware cd: speakup.i speakup_synth=xxx
For the original install floppy: ramdisk speakup_synth=xxx
and the Slackware docs say for the boot floppy you made during install to
type: "mount root=/dev/hda1" (or whatever your partition is.)

I understand what speakup_synth does, but what's all this variation in the
start command: ramdis, mount, speak.s, speakup,i, linux, nokeymap etc. At
first I thought they were all different names for the kernel you wanted
loaded, but then why do the docs for Slackware telll you to boot by typing
mount root=/dev/hda1? That makes no sense, because if a kernel isn't loaded
yet, how can it mount anything? And where do you stick in the speakup_synth
parameter in this mount command?

I hope my beginner questions aren't becoming too annoying.


       --   Debee
(Deborah Norling)
Alternate Media Specialist
DeAnza College
Phone: 408-864-5815
       <MailTo: norlingdeborah@fhda.edu>

Re: Newbie questions about booting Slackware

[Chuck Hallenbeck]

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I will not attempt to answer all your questions, but I would like
to say that the note of caution about the lilo loader is a bunch
of baloney. You should rely on it once you get your system
booted.

Of all the media you described, you mentioned making a boot disk
during the installation. That is the key to getting your
installed system to run so you can then run "liloconfig" to
install lilo. You should install it on the MBR (Master Boot
Record) of your HD, and to hell with the warnings! The only
reason I know for the warnings is that Windows also likes to use
that area for its loader, and will remove lilo without warning if
it is found there. But since you are not using Windows on that
disk, not to worry.

You are mostly correct, in that the first name on the boot prompt
is usually the name of the kernel you wish to execute. During the
initial install, you are actually bringing up a system that
resides entirely in memory, not on your HD at all, and the name
"ramdisk" is required in that context. That system in ramdisk
allows you to partition the HD, format its partitions, and do the
rest of the installation steps, using your HD as a "target" that
is independent of the running installation system.

The "nokeymap" option says not to use a keymap, which would
overwrite the keystroke definitions that speakup wants to use,
and thus causing you to lose the numpad keys as review keys.

Hope this answers some of your questions.

Chuck


- -- 
The Moon is Waning Crescent (47% of Full)
My home page is now at http://www.mhcable.com/~chuckh
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Re: Newbie questions about booting Slackware

[Gregory Nowak]

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Firstly, having used lilo for a few years now, I haven't yet run into
anything "dangerous" about it, so I don't know why the slackware
setup screen for lilo says what it says.

If you made a boot disk during setup as suggested, then you should
just be able to pop that disk in your drive and boot from it. If not,
then you could use the slackware cd to boot your new system. To do
that, pop it in your cd-rom drive, and when you're at the boot prompt,
type:

mount root=/dev/hda1 ro speakup_synth=xxx

I'm not sure what the layout of the 8.1 cd is like, since I haven't
used it for a long time now, but I think typing mount should work. The
above line assumes that your system was installed to /dev/hda1
(substitute the real device as appropriate), and of course replace
the xxx with the keyword for your synth. Once you boot up, go ahead
and run

liloconfig

to install lilo. You most likely won't have any problems installing
lilo to the mbr either. Before you reboot though and see if lilo got
installed correctly, I'd strongly recommend making a boot disk that
you can just pop into your floppy drive and boot from. You would do
this by typing:

makebootdisk

As for what mount, ramdisk, nokeymap, speakup.s, ETC. mean, they are
kernel image labels, and are used by most, if not all linux boot
loaders. These labels tell the boot loader which kernel image to
boot. Also, labels give you the ability to specify which kernel image
to boot, as well as letting you specify which parameters should be
passed to each kernel image. This is why there are so many names like
mount, and ramdisk, since each label is setup to tell the kernel image
with which parameters it should boot. I realize this explanation may
not be the best one, but I hope it makes sense, and clears some things
up.

Greg
 
- -- 
Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org

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Re: Newbie questions about booting Slackware

[Alex Snow]

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Hash: SHA1

You should install lilo. I'm not sure why it makes it seem like lilo 
is such a dangerous thing to install...I guess it's because eomeone 
who's dual-booting can screw up their system.
On Tue, May 11, 2004 at 
10:20:35AM -0700, Debee Norling wrote:
> I've read thru the past year of archives, hoping this got answered for some
> other newbie. If I missed an answer, feel free to point me to the
> appropriate month, rather than feeling like you need to repeat yourself.
> 
> I cleared off my desktop and installed Slackware 8.1 on it over the weekend.
> I used 8.1 because I had those CDS on hand and it's an old, slow machine.
> 
> I made two partitions, one for Linux native-83 and one for Linux-swap-82.
> DOS and Windows are no longer on the machine.
> 
> The install suggested that because Lilo was dangerous, beginners should skip
> installing it -- so I did. But now I can't boot. It appears that you have to
> have some sort of boot loader, even if you don't have another operating
> system on the disk -- is this correct?
> 
> I enjoyed Saqib's fine document on how to install Slackware with speakup,
> but it says nothing at all about lilo or booting, except how to boot the
> floppy you make with rawrite. The slackware install how-to has lots to say
> about booting, but it's for people who want to keep other operating systems
> on the hard disk. I didn't, because it sounded too complicated.
> 
> I made boot disks, and before I installed, I assembled a collection of
> talking, bootable media. I've got the partimage CD, the Systemrescue CD, the
> original installation boot and root floppies, the boot floppy I made during
> the install, and the Slackware CDS; the first two can be booted.
> 
> So I guess I have three questions here. First, I can boot all this media,
> but how do I use the Slackware I installed on my hard drive?
> 
> Second, how do I get that Slackware to boot, without worrying about
> complicated boot managers?
> 
> Third, what do all these different boot parameters mean anyway. They are:
> 
> For the Partimage CD: linux speakup_synth=xxx
> For the System rescue CD: nokeymap speakup_synth=xxx
> For the slackware cd: speakup.i speakup_synth=xxx
> For the original install floppy: ramdisk speakup_synth=xxx
> and the Slackware docs say for the boot floppy you made during install to
> type: "mount root=/dev/hda1" (or whatever your partition is.)
> 
> I understand what speakup_synth does, but what's all this variation in the
> start command: ramdis, mount, speak.s, speakup,i, linux, nokeymap etc. At
> first I thought they were all different names for the kernel you wanted
> loaded, but then why do the docs for Slackware telll you to boot by typing
> mount root=/dev/hda1? That makes no sense, because if a kernel isn't loaded
> yet, how can it mount anything? And where do you stick in the speakup_synth
> parameter in this mount command?
> 
> I hope my beginner questions aren't becoming too annoying.
> 
> 
>        --   Debee
> (Deborah Norling)
> Alternate Media Specialist
> DeAnza College
> Phone: 408-864-5815
>        <MailTo: norlingdeborah@fhda.edu>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

- -- 
Microsoft is not the answer.
Microsoft is the question.
NO (or Linux) is the answer.
	-- Taken from a .signature from someone from the UK, source unknown
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RE: Newbie questions about booting Slackware

[Debee Norling]

Alex writes:

>You should install lilo. I'm not sure why it makes it seem like lilo
>is such a dangerous thing to install...I guess it's because eomeone
>who's dual-booting can screw up their system.

They should really say then that dual-booting is dangerous. The install (and
the current docs which I've also read for Slackware) imply you should stay
away from lilo and that magically, your system will boot when you're
finished.

If I was mislead, so will be others, so it's now in the Speakup archive --
install Lilo and ignore the warnings.

It's silly nowadays anyway to dual-boot; machines are so cheap that even a
person on fixed income can afford them. I used to be very poor and now, I
work  at a community college with disabled students, so I know what it means
to be on fixed income.

Our local surplus stores have 350MHZ pentiums with 3GB hard disks for
between 20 and 60 dollars without operating system, depending on the other
options like CD writer and USB. For $100, you can get a surplus (probably
refurbished) Pentium II with about 96MB of ram, a 4GB hard drive, a legal
Windows operating system and a slow CD writer. When you visit on Saturdays,
the 486 computers are stacked in dusty racks outside with signs that say
"make an offer".

Granted, I live in Silicon Valley, but a little web shopping can get you the
same thing. In fact, my two favorite surplus stores, Halted Specialties and
Weird Stuff Warehouse, both sell on the internet as well, and their labeling
about whether stuff has been tested is honest. Just buy some old junk
machine for $100 and skip the messy dual-boot!


--Debee

Re: Newbie questions about booting Slackware

[Steve Holmes]

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Hash: SHA1

I never recalled a lot of danger warnings about lilo but quite
frankly, I don't see how one could boot a system without it.  I guess
one could use syslinux from floppies or something but lilo is quite
easy to use.  Like so many other linuxish things, one should read up
on it to get the most out of it.  The Slackware liloconfig script does
a fine job in creating bootdisks and also a fine job at configuring
your boot strap for your hard disk.  I've dual and single booted using
lilo for years and never had problems with it.  Just remember to run
lilo every time you build a new kernel or you won't boot:).

One beauty of using something like lilo is you can set up several
entry points or labels in your lilo.conf to point to possibly
different kernel images.  This way, you could experiment with a new
version of a kernel or different options of such and if it fails to
boot then just boot with your "tried and proven" version.  'man lilo'
will give you a good explanation of lilo and how it works; also look
at 'man lilo.conf' which will explain the various options to
lilo.conf.

The previous comments about building a bootdisk are most valuable.  I
have a machine at home that for some reason, won't boot off hard
drive. - old machine with a new larger drive I guess.  The boot floppy
saves my butt on that machine.  I've also been saved by a boot floppy
when I screwed up my hard disk boot image.

One other thing.  When it comes to the lilo.conf file, you can put in
those extra parameters like synth selection and any other kernel parms
you might need to use on the image line so you could get down to a
short name or single letter to select the boot image you want.  If you
want any examples of lilo.conf, I'll be glad to send you one privately
or I'll bet some others on the list would do likewise.  Then you can
compare examples.

On Tue, May 11, 2004 at 03:04:18PM -0700, Debee Norling wrote:
> Alex writes:
> 
> >You should install lilo. I'm not sure why it makes it seem like lilo
> >is such a dangerous thing to install...I guess it's because eomeone
> >who's dual-booting can screw up their system.
> 
> They should really say then that dual-booting is dangerous. The install (and
> the current docs which I've also read for Slackware) imply you should stay
> away from lilo and that magically, your system will boot when you're
> finished.
> 
> If I was mislead, so will be others, so it's now in the Speakup archive --
> install Lilo and ignore the warnings.
> 
> It's silly nowadays anyway to dual-boot; machines are so cheap that even a
> person on fixed income can afford them. I used to be very poor and now, I
> work  at a community college with disabled students, so I know what it means
> to be on fixed income.
> 
> Our local surplus stores have 350MHZ pentiums with 3GB hard disks for
> between 20 and 60 dollars without operating system, depending on the other
> options like CD writer and USB. For $100, you can get a surplus (probably
> refurbished) Pentium II with about 96MB of ram, a 4GB hard drive, a legal
> Windows operating system and a slow CD writer. When you visit on Saturdays,
> the 486 computers are stacked in dusty racks outside with signs that say
> "make an offer".
> 
> Granted, I live in Silicon Valley, but a little web shopping can get you the
> same thing. In fact, my two favorite surplus stores, Halted Specialties and
> Weird Stuff Warehouse, both sell on the internet as well, and their labeling
> about whether stuff has been tested is honest. Just buy some old junk
> machine for $100 and skip the messy dual-boot!
> 
> 
> --Debee
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 

- -- 
HolmesGrown Solutions
The best solutions for the best price!
http://ld.net/?holmesgrown
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RE: Newbie questions about booting Slackware

[Debee Norling]

Thanks everyone including Alex, Greg, Steve and Jacob.

Yes, I would appreciate samples of lilo.conf that anyone cares to share.
Please mail me privately though, unless you think having it public helps
future people.

And I'll rtfm all docs so far recommended. This is exactly why I need to get
it running better on my Libretto -- so I can read all this documentation on
my borring commute!

--Debee

Re: Newbie questions about booting Slackware

[Garrett Klein]

Another nice thing to do is put a line like alias=1 in your default 
Kernel image section, that way you can just press 1 then enter to 
boot. Then the next image gets a line at the end of its section, alias 
=2, then alias=3 for the next section, and so on...

Garrett

On Tue, May 11, 2004 
at 03:39:14PM -0700, Steve Holmes wrote:
> I never recalled a lot of danger warnings about lilo but quite
> frankly, I don't see how one could boot a system without it.  I guess
> one could use syslinux from floppies or something but lilo is quite
> easy to use.  Like so many other linuxish things, one should read up
> on it to get the most out of it.  The Slackware liloconfig script does
> a fine job in creating bootdisks and also a fine job at configuring
> your boot strap for your hard disk.  I've dual and single booted using
> lilo for years and never had problems with it.  Just remember to run
> lilo every time you build a new kernel or you won't boot:).
> 
> One beauty of using something like lilo is you can set up several
> entry points or labels in your lilo.conf to point to possibly
> different kernel images.  This way, you could experiment with a new
> version of a kernel or different options of such and if it fails to
> boot then just boot with your "tried and proven" version.  'man lilo'
> will give you a good explanation of lilo and how it works; also look
> at 'man lilo.conf' which will explain the various options to
> lilo.conf.
> 
> The previous comments about building a bootdisk are most valuable.  I
> have a machine at home that for some reason, won't boot off hard
> drive. - old machine with a new larger drive I guess.  The boot floppy
> saves my butt on that machine.  I've also been saved by a boot floppy
> when I screwed up my hard disk boot image.
> 
> One other thing.  When it comes to the lilo.conf file, you can put in
> those extra parameters like synth selection and any other kernel parms
> you might need to use on the image line so you could get down to a
> short name or single letter to select the boot image you want.  If you
> want any examples of lilo.conf, I'll be glad to send you one privately
> or I'll bet some others on the list would do likewise.  Then you can
> compare examples.
> 
> On Tue, May 11, 2004 at 03:04:18PM -0700, Debee Norling wrote:
> > Alex writes:
> > 
> > >You should install lilo. I'm not sure why it makes it seem like lilo
> > >is such a dangerous thing to install...I guess it's because eomeone
> > >who's dual-booting can screw up their system.
> > 
> > They should really say then that dual-booting is dangerous. The install (and
> > the current docs which I've also read for Slackware) imply you should stay
> > away from lilo and that magically, your system will boot when you're
> > finished.
> > 
> > If I was mislead, so will be others, so it's now in the Speakup archive --
> > install Lilo and ignore the warnings.
> > 
> > It's silly nowadays anyway to dual-boot; machines are so cheap that even a
> > person on fixed income can afford them. I used to be very poor and now, I
> > work  at a community college with disabled students, so I know what it means
> > to be on fixed income.
> > 
> > Our local surplus stores have 350MHZ pentiums with 3GB hard disks for
> > between 20 and 60 dollars without operating system, depending on the other
> > options like CD writer and USB. For $100, you can get a surplus (probably
> > refurbished) Pentium II with about 96MB of ram, a 4GB hard drive, a legal
> > Windows operating system and a slow CD writer. When you visit on Saturdays,
> > the 486 computers are stacked in dusty racks outside with signs that say
> > "make an offer".
> > 
> > Granted, I live in Silicon Valley, but a little web shopping can get you the
> > same thing. In fact, my two favorite surplus stores, Halted Specialties and
> > Weird Stuff Warehouse, both sell on the internet as well, and their labeling
> > about whether stuff has been tested is honest. Just buy some old junk
> > machine for $100 and skip the messy dual-boot!
> > 
> > 
> > --Debee
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> > 
> 
> -- 
> HolmesGrown Solutions
> The best solutions for the best price!
> http://ld.net/?holmesgrown
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>