Unpopularity of Elba

Unpopularity of Elba

[Saqib Shaikh]

Hi

I talked to someone I know at Papenmeier UK.  He very much likes the
machines, but there are a few reasons he thinks noone else likes them.

1.  Size.  We're talking 2.something kg, or 5 pounds.  That's the weight of
a laptop.  In fact you can get laptops weighing 1.2 kg.  In terms of size
you're talking 12 inches by 8 inches, which is also not all that small.  It
is also made of aluminium and is "built like a brick".  This may be good in
terms of not breaking if you crash into a brick wall, but it has its
disadvantages too.

2.  Inconsistency of Linux.  I think they should have done more to adapt
Linux for the Elba.  They maybe should have put a slightly nicer user
interface on the underlying apps.  He mentioned, for example, that new users
never understood why they should press ctrl+g for help in Pico, but ? in
Pine.  I don't use these programs so don't know.  But in general it doesn't
have the polish of the Keysoft suite of applications.

3.  Upgrading the system is a pain - you have to download the file, unzip it
onto a flash card, and then boot from the flash card.  Problems are that you
need to buy both a flash card, as well as a flash card reader for the PC.

4.  While a minor point, it boasts all this network functionality.  But
since they only have 16MB to play with you can only copy files to your PC,
but not from your PC (or maybe it was the other way around).  In any case,
it is only one way.

So, I still think it is a nice machine, and I'd probably still get it if I
had the money, due to its open nature.  Many people on this list may also go
for it.  But at the end of the day it comes down to whether you want a
powerful tool that you can do a lot with, or a beautiful, elegant box which
takes inputs and produces neat, precise output.

I'll be seeing a demo of it for myself in a weeks time, and I'll report my
findings.

Saqib Shaikh
Email me@saqibshaikh.com
Web site www.saqibshaikh.com

Re: Unpopularity of Elba

[Lorenzo Prince]

Sounds to me like due to the price, capabilities, and size, I'd rather get
a laptop and a couple of spare batteries and put Linux on it.  It would be
a lot more powerful for a much cheaper price, and it is about the same
size and weight.

Lorenzo

----==-- _                     / /  \
---==---(_)__  __ ____  __    / / /\ \
--==---/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ /   / /_/\ \ \
-=====/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\  /______\ \ \
A proud member of TeamLinux \_________\/
	-- CHaley (HAC), haley@unm.edu, ch008cth@pi.lanl.gov)

Unpopularity of Elba

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

Actually Saqib, if you wanted to really understand the Elba and how it
works on a network, think of it as a Linux box, then you will
understand.  A linux box, unless you are using Samba, can not exchange
files with a Windows one using FTP.  On the other hand, the Windows
box can FTP to the Linux box with no trouble.  Why, because the Linux
box understands and can read communication From Windows to it.
Windows, on the other hand, can not read communication via FTP from a
Linux box.  Windows doesn't recognize Linux at all!  If, for example,
you have a Linux and Windows computer, i.e. a dual boot system, you
can mount the Windows partition/disk on the Linux side no trouble.
You can come and go within the windows environment, see all the files,
read them, and write to them, even.  On the other hand, Windows is
incapable of recognizing a linux partition.  As far as Billy-Boy is
concerned, his OS is egocentric and will remain so.  That is why your
Elba can not talk to your PC.  It isn't that the Elba is illiterate or
not bilingual, it's that your PC is!  Your PC, unless it is a Linux
box, is, as I have said, egocentric, monolingual, and parochial.  It
don't wanna talk to nobody who's different or who speaks funny or who
dresses funny or who uses a slash instead of a backslash.  I mean
*really* that is the end of uncooth, according to the high society of
Windowsdom.  Actually, if it ain careful, it's going to trip over its
feet if it keeps its nose in the air like that, Saqib! It's *not* the
Elba's fault!

On the other hand, iffin you want to talk to a Linux box with it, you
can talk either direction.  Both Linux boxes can talk to each other
just peachy keen and wonderful

Now I admit that five pounds is rather heavy, but shoot for the
convenience... Only thing it lacks and not for long, is GPS.  

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: Unpopularity of Elba

[Luke Davis]

Ann

I have personally used Linux to access Windows FTP servers.  It works
fine, contrary to your statements below.  Most of the rest of your message
is correct, but when something talks FTP over TCP/IP, it talks FTP.

Am I totally missing the boat here?

Luke

On Sat, 3 May 2003, Ann Parsons wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Actually Saqib, if you wanted to really understand the Elba and how it
> works on a network, think of it as a Linux box, then you will
> understand.  A linux box, unless you are using Samba, can not exchange
> files with a Windows one using FTP.  On the other hand, the Windows
> box can FTP to the Linux box with no trouble.  Why, because the Linux
> box understands and can read communication From Windows to it.
> Windows, on the other hand, can not read communication via FTP from a
> Linux box.  Windows doesn't recognize Linux at all!  If, for example,
> you have a Linux and Windows computer, i.e. a dual boot system, you
> can mount the Windows partition/disk on the Linux side no trouble.
> You can come and go within the windows environment, see all the files,
> read them, and write to them, even.  On the other hand, Windows is
> incapable of recognizing a linux partition.  As far as Billy-Boy is
> concerned, his OS is egocentric and will remain so.  That is why your
> Elba can not talk to your PC.  It isn't that the Elba is illiterate or
> not bilingual, it's that your PC is!  Your PC, unless it is a Linux
> box, is, as I have said, egocentric, monolingual, and parochial.  It
> don't wanna talk to nobody who's different or who speaks funny or who
> dresses funny or who uses a slash instead of a backslash.  I mean
> *really* that is the end of uncooth, according to the high society of
> Windowsdom.  Actually, if it ain careful, it's going to trip over its
> feet if it keeps its nose in the air like that, Saqib! It's *not* the
> Elba's fault!
>
> On the other hand, iffin you want to talk to a Linux box with it, you
> can talk either direction.  Both Linux boxes can talk to each other
> just peachy keen and wonderful
>
> Now I admit that five pounds is rather heavy, but shoot for the
> convenience... Only thing it lacks and not for long, is GPS.
>
> Ann P.
>
>

Re: Unpopularity of Elba

[Janina Sajka]

Well, I did have the money, and decided not to get it. I'll tell you
why, if you care ...

The size is an annoyance, certainly, but I could have lived with that.
What I can't live with is all the proprietary crap they put on the Elba,
all those scripts and what not they put to get it look and act like a
Windows machine. If I wanted Windows, I'd get Windows. I don't need a
Linux machine that tries to act like a Windows machine.

Another reason, their screen reader is proprietary. I want Speakup and
Emacspeak, not their proprietary Linux screen reader that I've never
played with and have no idea how it works.

So, had I decided to get this unit, I would be blowing away all that
stuff they put into it and doing my own Linux install. Heck, if I'm
going to do that, I have lots of hardware to choose from.


Saqib Shaikh writes:
> From: "Saqib Shaikh" <sshaik@essex.ac.uk>
> 
> Hi
> 
> I talked to someone I know at Papenmeier UK.  He very much likes the
> machines, but there are a few reasons he thinks noone else likes them.
> 
> 1.  Size.  We're talking 2.something kg, or 5 pounds.  That's the weight of
> a laptop.  In fact you can get laptops weighing 1.2 kg.  In terms of size
> you're talking 12 inches by 8 inches, which is also not all that small.  It
> is also made of aluminium and is "built like a brick".  This may be good in
> terms of not breaking if you crash into a brick wall, but it has its
> disadvantages too.
> 
> 2.  Inconsistency of Linux.  I think they should have done more to adapt
> Linux for the Elba.  They maybe should have put a slightly nicer user
> interface on the underlying apps.  He mentioned, for example, that new users
> never understood why they should press ctrl+g for help in Pico, but ? in
> Pine.  I don't use these programs so don't know.  But in general it doesn't
> have the polish of the Keysoft suite of applications.
> 
> 3.  Upgrading the system is a pain - you have to download the file, unzip it
> onto a flash card, and then boot from the flash card.  Problems are that you
> need to buy both a flash card, as well as a flash card reader for the PC.
> 
> 4.  While a minor point, it boasts all this network functionality.  But
> since they only have 16MB to play with you can only copy files to your PC,
> but not from your PC (or maybe it was the other way around).  In any case,
> it is only one way.
> 
> So, I still think it is a nice machine, and I'd probably still get it if I
> had the money, due to its open nature.  Many people on this list may also go
> for it.  But at the end of the day it comes down to whether you want a
> powerful tool that you can do a lot with, or a beautiful, elegant box which
> takes inputs and produces neat, precise output.
> 
> I'll be seeing a demo of it for myself in a weeks time, and I'll report my
> findings.
> 
> Saqib Shaikh
> Email me@saqibshaikh.com
> Web site www.saqibshaikh.com
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Re: Unpopularity of Elba

[Janina Sajka]

With the exception that some ftp implementations, especially on Win
systems, are flawed, this is correct.

ftp is ftp, whatever os is hosting it.


Luke Davis writes:
> From: Luke Davis <ldavis@shellworld.net>
> 
> Ann
> 
> I have personally used Linux to access Windows FTP servers.  It works
> fine, contrary to your statements below.  Most of the rest of your message
> is correct, but when something talks FTP over TCP/IP, it talks FTP.
> 
> Am I totally missing the boat here?
> 
> Luke
> 
> On Sat, 3 May 2003, Ann Parsons wrote:
> 
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Actually Saqib, if you wanted to really understand the Elba and how it
> > works on a network, think of it as a Linux box, then you will
> > understand.  A linux box, unless you are using Samba, can not exchange
> > files with a Windows one using FTP.  On the other hand, the Windows
> > box can FTP to the Linux box with no trouble.  Why, because the Linux
> > box understands and can read communication From Windows to it.
> > Windows, on the other hand, can not read communication via FTP from a
> > Linux box.  Windows doesn't recognize Linux at all!  If, for example,
> > you have a Linux and Windows computer, i.e. a dual boot system, you
> > can mount the Windows partition/disk on the Linux side no trouble.
> > You can come and go within the windows environment, see all the files,
> > read them, and write to them, even.  On the other hand, Windows is
> > incapable of recognizing a linux partition.  As far as Billy-Boy is
> > concerned, his OS is egocentric and will remain so.  That is why your
> > Elba can not talk to your PC.  It isn't that the Elba is illiterate or
> > not bilingual, it's that your PC is!  Your PC, unless it is a Linux
> > box, is, as I have said, egocentric, monolingual, and parochial.  It
> > don't wanna talk to nobody who's different or who speaks funny or who
> > dresses funny or who uses a slash instead of a backslash.  I mean
> > *really* that is the end of uncooth, according to the high society of
> > Windowsdom.  Actually, if it ain careful, it's going to trip over its
> > feet if it keeps its nose in the air like that, Saqib! It's *not* the
> > Elba's fault!
> >
> > On the other hand, iffin you want to talk to a Linux box with it, you
> > can talk either direction.  Both Linux boxes can talk to each other
> > just peachy keen and wonderful
> >
> > Now I admit that five pounds is rather heavy, but shoot for the
> > convenience... Only thing it lacks and not for long, is GPS.
> >
> > Ann P.
> >
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Re: Unpopularity of Elba

[Luke Davis]

That assumes that you even *can* do your own Linux install on it.  Do
its drivers for its proprietary hardware even have public source code?  I
would not think so, although admittedly I am not certain.

For that kind of hassle, a Thinkpad would be just as good, and several
times better, as the upgrade path is very much open.


On Sat, 3 May 2003, Janina Sajka wrote:

> Well, I did have the money, and decided not to get it. I'll tell you
> why, if you care ...
>
> The size is an annoyance, certainly, but I could have lived with that.
> What I can't live with is all the proprietary crap they put on the Elba,
> all those scripts and what not they put to get it look and act like a
> Windows machine. If I wanted Windows, I'd get Windows. I don't need a
> Linux machine that tries to act like a Windows machine.
>
> Another reason, their screen reader is proprietary. I want Speakup and
> Emacspeak, not their proprietary Linux screen reader that I've never
> played with and have no idea how it works.
>
> So, had I decided to get this unit, I would be blowing away all that
> stuff they put into it and doing my own Linux install. Heck, if I'm
> going to do that, I have lots of hardware to choose from.
>
>
> Saqib Shaikh writes:
> > From: "Saqib Shaikh" <sshaik@essex.ac.uk>
> >
> > Hi
> >
> > I talked to someone I know at Papenmeier UK.  He very much likes the
> > machines, but there are a few reasons he thinks noone else likes them.
> >
> > 1.  Size.  We're talking 2.something kg, or 5 pounds.  That's the weight of
> > a laptop.  In fact you can get laptops weighing 1.2 kg.  In terms of size
> > you're talking 12 inches by 8 inches, which is also not all that small.  It
> > is also made of aluminium and is "built like a brick".  This may be good in
> > terms of not breaking if you crash into a brick wall, but it has its
> > disadvantages too.
> >
> > 2.  Inconsistency of Linux.  I think they should have done more to adapt
> > Linux for the Elba.  They maybe should have put a slightly nicer user
> > interface on the underlying apps.  He mentioned, for example, that new users
> > never understood why they should press ctrl+g for help in Pico, but ? in
> > Pine.  I don't use these programs so don't know.  But in general it doesn't
> > have the polish of the Keysoft suite of applications.
> >
> > 3.  Upgrading the system is a pain - you have to download the file, unzip it
> > onto a flash card, and then boot from the flash card.  Problems are that you
> > need to buy both a flash card, as well as a flash card reader for the PC.
> >
> > 4.  While a minor point, it boasts all this network functionality.  But
> > since they only have 16MB to play with you can only copy files to your PC,
> > but not from your PC (or maybe it was the other way around).  In any case,
> > it is only one way.
> >
> > So, I still think it is a nice machine, and I'd probably still get it if I
> > had the money, due to its open nature.  Many people on this list may also go
> > for it.  But at the end of the day it comes down to whether you want a
> > powerful tool that you can do a lot with, or a beautiful, elegant box which
> > takes inputs and produces neat, precise output.
> >
> > I'll be seeing a demo of it for myself in a weeks time, and I'll report my
> > findings.
> >
> > Saqib Shaikh
> > Email me@saqibshaikh.com
> > Web site www.saqibshaikh.com
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: Unpopularity of Elba

[Lorenzo Prince]

Actually, it's not just that Winbows can't speak Linux, It doesn't
understand server-side FTP.  You have to pay $50 or more for a halfway
decent program that will act as an FTP server for Winblows.  And, as far
as the slash backslash thing, doesn't Billy-Boy understand that Winblows
is the one that is backwards there? Notice that it uses the BACKslash as
apposed to the standard slash.  Grin.

Lorenzo

One of the things that hamper Linux's climb to world domination is the
shortage of bad Computer Role Playing Games, or CRaPGs. No operating system
can be considered respectable without one.
	-- Brian O'Donnell, odonnllb@tcd.ie

Re: Unpopularity of Elba

[Gregory Nowak]

On Sat, May 03, 2003 at 02:55:59PM -0400, Ann Parsons wrote:
> On the other hand, Windows is
> incapable of recognizing a linux partition. 

With all the windows-specific viruses out there,
would you really want that functionality within windows? 

Greg

Re: Unpopularity of Elba

[Janina Sajka]

ndeed. And I didn't get one. Instead I got a new IBM Thinkpad, though I
must confess I'm not happy with it, either. My problem with the thinkpad
is that IBM seems to have begun cheapening the quality of construction.
The T30 I have just doesn't feel as robust as my old T20. Worse than
that, though, is the very cheezy sound card. It's an Intel I1810 and it
stinks.

At this point I'm hoping someone soon writes drivers for the Echo
Indigo.

Luke Davis writes:
> From: Luke Davis <ldavis@shellworld.net>
> 
> That assumes that you even *can* do your own Linux install on it.  Do
> its drivers for its proprietary hardware even have public source code?  I
> would not think so, although admittedly I am not certain.
> 
> For that kind of hassle, a Thinkpad would be just as good, and several
> times better, as the upgrade path is very much open.
> 
> 
> On Sat, 3 May 2003, Janina Sajka wrote:
> 
> > Well, I did have the money, and decided not to get it. I'll tell you
> > why, if you care ...
> >
> > The size is an annoyance, certainly, but I could have lived with that.
> > What I can't live with is all the proprietary crap they put on the Elba,
> > all those scripts and what not they put to get it look and act like a
> > Windows machine. If I wanted Windows, I'd get Windows. I don't need a
> > Linux machine that tries to act like a Windows machine.
> >
> > Another reason, their screen reader is proprietary. I want Speakup and
> > Emacspeak, not their proprietary Linux screen reader that I've never
> > played with and have no idea how it works.
> >
> > So, had I decided to get this unit, I would be blowing away all that
> > stuff they put into it and doing my own Linux install. Heck, if I'm
> > going to do that, I have lots of hardware to choose from.
> >
> >
> > Saqib Shaikh writes:
> > > From: "Saqib Shaikh" <sshaik@essex.ac.uk>
> > >
> > > Hi
> > >
> > > I talked to someone I know at Papenmeier UK.  He very much likes the
> > > machines, but there are a few reasons he thinks noone else likes them.
> > >
> > > 1.  Size.  We're talking 2.something kg, or 5 pounds.  That's the weight of
> > > a laptop.  In fact you can get laptops weighing 1.2 kg.  In terms of size
> > > you're talking 12 inches by 8 inches, which is also not all that small.  It
> > > is also made of aluminium and is "built like a brick".  This may be good in
> > > terms of not breaking if you crash into a brick wall, but it has its
> > > disadvantages too.
> > >
> > > 2.  Inconsistency of Linux.  I think they should have done more to adapt
> > > Linux for the Elba.  They maybe should have put a slightly nicer user
> > > interface on the underlying apps.  He mentioned, for example, that new users
> > > never understood why they should press ctrl+g for help in Pico, but ? in
> > > Pine.  I don't use these programs so don't know.  But in general it doesn't
> > > have the polish of the Keysoft suite of applications.
> > >
> > > 3.  Upgrading the system is a pain - you have to download the file, unzip it
> > > onto a flash card, and then boot from the flash card.  Problems are that you
> > > need to buy both a flash card, as well as a flash card reader for the PC.
> > >
> > > 4.  While a minor point, it boasts all this network functionality.  But
> > > since they only have 16MB to play with you can only copy files to your PC,
> > > but not from your PC (or maybe it was the other way around).  In any case,
> > > it is only one way.
> > >
> > > So, I still think it is a nice machine, and I'd probably still get it if I
> > > had the money, due to its open nature.  Many people on this list may also go
> > > for it.  But at the end of the day it comes down to whether you want a
> > > powerful tool that you can do a lot with, or a beautiful, elegant box which
> > > takes inputs and produces neat, precise output.
> > >
> > > I'll be seeing a demo of it for myself in a weeks time, and I'll report my
> > > findings.
> > >
> > > Saqib Shaikh
> > > Email me@saqibshaikh.com
> > > Web site www.saqibshaikh.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Re: Unpopularity of Elba

[Luke Davis]

To put it mildly, that royally sucks.  Maybe time to go back to HP.

Of course, you could always buy the one in the titanium shell, if they
still make it that way.


On Sat, 3 May 2003, Janina Sajka wrote:

> ndeed. And I didn't get one. Instead I got a new IBM Thinkpad, though I
> must confess I'm not happy with it, either. My problem with the thinkpad
> is that IBM seems to have begun cheapening the quality of construction.
> The T30 I have just doesn't feel as robust as my old T20. Worse than
> that, though, is the very cheezy sound card. It's an Intel I1810 and it
> stinks.
>
> At this point I'm hoping someone soon writes drivers for the Echo
> Indigo.
>
> Luke Davis writes:
> > From: Luke Davis <ldavis@shellworld.net>
> >
> > That assumes that you even *can* do your own Linux install on it.  Do
> > its drivers for its proprietary hardware even have public source code?  I
> > would not think so, although admittedly I am not certain.
> >
> > For that kind of hassle, a Thinkpad would be just as good, and several
> > times better, as the upgrade path is very much open.
> >
> >
> > On Sat, 3 May 2003, Janina Sajka wrote:
> >
> > > Well, I did have the money, and decided not to get it. I'll tell you
> > > why, if you care ...
> > >
> > > The size is an annoyance, certainly, but I could have lived with that.
> > > What I can't live with is all the proprietary crap they put on the Elba,
> > > all those scripts and what not they put to get it look and act like a
> > > Windows machine. If I wanted Windows, I'd get Windows. I don't need a
> > > Linux machine that tries to act like a Windows machine.
> > >
> > > Another reason, their screen reader is proprietary. I want Speakup and
> > > Emacspeak, not their proprietary Linux screen reader that I've never
> > > played with and have no idea how it works.
> > >
> > > So, had I decided to get this unit, I would be blowing away all that
> > > stuff they put into it and doing my own Linux install. Heck, if I'm
> > > going to do that, I have lots of hardware to choose from.
> > >
> > >
> > > Saqib Shaikh writes:
> > > > From: "Saqib Shaikh" <sshaik@essex.ac.uk>
> > > >
> > > > Hi
> > > >
> > > > I talked to someone I know at Papenmeier UK.  He very much likes the
> > > > machines, but there are a few reasons he thinks noone else likes them.
> > > >
> > > > 1.  Size.  We're talking 2.something kg, or 5 pounds.  That's the weight of
> > > > a laptop.  In fact you can get laptops weighing 1.2 kg.  In terms of size
> > > > you're talking 12 inches by 8 inches, which is also not all that small.  It
> > > > is also made of aluminium and is "built like a brick".  This may be good in
> > > > terms of not breaking if you crash into a brick wall, but it has its
> > > > disadvantages too.
> > > >
> > > > 2.  Inconsistency of Linux.  I think they should have done more to adapt
> > > > Linux for the Elba.  They maybe should have put a slightly nicer user
> > > > interface on the underlying apps.  He mentioned, for example, that new users
> > > > never understood why they should press ctrl+g for help in Pico, but ? in
> > > > Pine.  I don't use these programs so don't know.  But in general it doesn't
> > > > have the polish of the Keysoft suite of applications.
> > > >
> > > > 3.  Upgrading the system is a pain - you have to download the file, unzip it
> > > > onto a flash card, and then boot from the flash card.  Problems are that you
> > > > need to buy both a flash card, as well as a flash card reader for the PC.
> > > >
> > > > 4.  While a minor point, it boasts all this network functionality.  But
> > > > since they only have 16MB to play with you can only copy files to your PC,
> > > > but not from your PC (or maybe it was the other way around).  In any case,
> > > > it is only one way.
> > > >
> > > > So, I still think it is a nice machine, and I'd probably still get it if I
> > > > had the money, due to its open nature.  Many people on this list may also go
> > > > for it.  But at the end of the day it comes down to whether you want a
> > > > powerful tool that you can do a lot with, or a beautiful, elegant box which
> > > > takes inputs and produces neat, precise output.
> > > >
> > > > I'll be seeing a demo of it for myself in a weeks time, and I'll report my
> > > > findings.
> > > >
> > > > Saqib Shaikh
> > > > Email me@saqibshaikh.com
> > > > Web site www.saqibshaikh.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: Unpopularity of Elba

[Igor Gueths]

Hi there. Your message was very informative. In fact I wasn't aware that
it weighed 5 lbs. Nor was I aware of the whole thing regarding the flash
card reader. And please do report your findings, as I and possibly others
on this list may find an interest in them.

May you code in the power of the source,
may the kernel, libraries, and utilities be with you,
throughout all distributions until the end of the epoch.

On Sat, 3 May 2003, Saqib Shaikh wrote:

> Hi
>
> I talked to someone I know at Papenmeier UK.  He very much likes the
> machines, but there are a few reasons he thinks noone else likes them.
>
> 1.  Size.  We're talking 2.something kg, or 5 pounds.  That's the weight of
> a laptop.  In fact you can get laptops weighing 1.2 kg.  In terms of size
> you're talking 12 inches by 8 inches, which is also not all that small.  It
> is also made of aluminium and is "built like a brick".  This may be good in
> terms of not breaking if you crash into a brick wall, but it has its
> disadvantages too.
>
> 2.  Inconsistency of Linux.  I think they should have done more to adapt
> Linux for the Elba.  They maybe should have put a slightly nicer user
> interface on the underlying apps.  He mentioned, for example, that new users
> never understood why they should press ctrl+g for help in Pico, but ? in
> Pine.  I don't use these programs so don't know.  But in general it doesn't
> have the polish of the Keysoft suite of applications.
>
> 3.  Upgrading the system is a pain - you have to download the file, unzip it
> onto a flash card, and then boot from the flash card.  Problems are that you
> need to buy both a flash card, as well as a flash card reader for the PC.
>
> 4.  While a minor point, it boasts all this network functionality.  But
> since they only have 16MB to play with you can only copy files to your PC,
> but not from your PC (or maybe it was the other way around).  In any case,
> it is only one way.
>
> So, I still think it is a nice machine, and I'd probably still get it if I
> had the money, due to its open nature.  Many people on this list may also go
> for it.  But at the end of the day it comes down to whether you want a
> powerful tool that you can do a lot with, or a beautiful, elegant box which
> takes inputs and produces neat, precise output.
>
> I'll be seeing a demo of it for myself in a weeks time, and I'll report my
> findings.
>
> Saqib Shaikh
> Email me@saqibshaikh.com
> Web site www.saqibshaikh.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Unpopularity of Elba

[Ann Parsons]

Hi Luke,

Slightly different, here.  You're running Samba.  You have to to allow
the Windows machines to understand stuff sent to 'em.

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: Unpopularity of Elba

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

Janina, can you tell me more, please?  I'm researching both Elba and
the Braille-Note.  I need a note taker for the work I'm doing now.
I'm teaching windows, and I need a note taker, not a laptop because of
ease of use and size.  If I could be assured that the Braille-Note
would work on my network here, I might go for that.  The Elba looks
good, but tell me more about what you know about it, please.  If you
want to write privately, you certainly may.  I need to know as much as
I can before jumping, so to speak. 

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: Unpopularity of Elba

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

I shall report all I know once I know it.

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: Unpopularity of Elba

[Luke Davis]

I am?  That's news to me.:)


On Sat, 3 May 2003, Ann Parsons wrote:

> Hi Luke,
>
> Slightly different, here.  You're running Samba.  You have to to allow
> the Windows machines to understand stuff sent to 'em.
>
> Ann P.
>
>

Re: Unpopularity of Elba

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

Maybe I'm mistaken, sorry.  

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: Unpopularity of Elba

[Janina Sajka]

Hi, Ann:

Ann Parsons writes:
> 
> Janina, can you tell me more, please?  I'm researching both Elba and
> the Braille-Note.  I need a note taker for the work I'm doing now.
> I'm teaching windows, and I need a note taker, not a laptop because of
> ease of use and size.  If I could be assured that the Braille-Note
> would work on my network here, I might go for that.

Well, when you put it this way, I'm not so sure that I wouldn't go for
the Elba. If you put it this way. But let me think aloud for a minute
with you.

You're teaching Windows, but you want to have your favorite OS around,
too. So, you need a system that will work both ways. 

You say you don't want a laptop because of size and ease of use. I can't
comment so much about ease of use as that's so very very individual.
Sufffice it to say that any notetaker will require you to learn its very
own ways of doing things.The size thing, though, is different. Bothe the
Elba and the Braille Note are pretty big compared to some very powerful
subnotebook computers around. For example, take a look at:

http://www.transmeta.com/everywhere/products/notebooks/fujitsu/fujitsu_lifebookpseries_specs.html
http://www.transmeta.com/everywhere/products/notebooks/nec/nec_versa_daylite.html
http://www.transmeta.com/everywhere/products/notebooks/casio/casio_fiva_206e.html

Three very compelling subnotebooks there. Consider the Lifebook alone:

There's a system you could run both Windows and Linux on, in a dual boot
configuration, if you wanted to. And it weighs in under 4 pounds which
compares smartly against the Elba's 5 pounds plus, and even against the
Braille Note 32 at 1.3 kilos. Consider that there are lighter versions
of the Lifebook and I'm not at all convinced that size and weight are a
compelling basis for decision.

Let me put it this way. If it were me spending my own money,

1.)	I'd pay cash or forget it. Computers are rarely a good thing to
put on credit. Maybe for work, like you say, but even then only on the
short term. 

2.)	I'd almost surely go for a notebook because I could do more with
it, I think.

But, let's go back to the question you posed: Braille Note or Elba?

I've got two consoles open as I write. One is looking at the Pulse-Date
site where they sing the praises of Braille Note:

http://www.humanware.com/E/E1/E1F.html

The other, to the U.S. dealer of Elba:

http://www.sighted.com/english/elba2003.html

Damm, but these are expensive when I consider spending my own money.
But, if it's between the two, I think I go with Elba for several
reasons. The reasons against seem to come down to one reason:

Size and weight -- It's a monster. No comparison to the notebooks. It's
big. Frankly, it's almost as big as my full-featured IBM Thinkpad T30,
and it's more expensive. By the way, my Thinkpad is top of the line with
all the extras -- totals 120 gigs of hard disk and a gig of RAM. If it
weren't for that sound care on the Thinkpad ...

But, I diagress ...

I said there were reasons for:

It seems the Elba has ethernet on board, whereas the Braille Note only
says "supports ethernet," meaning "get a PCMCIA card for that."

I think the rest of the hardware specs are fairly the same--close enough
for me, in any case.

So, it comes down to the software. Here two, they do more or less the
same thing, with probably a few more features in the Braille Note. But
the Braille Note's software is all some kind of Windows. The E-mail will
be a Win-CE version of Outlook, the word processor a Win-CE kind of
Word, etc.

For my taste, I'd rather have the tweaked Pine on the Elba--and the rest
of the tweaks they put in to make it palatable to Windows users, because
it's Linux under the hood, and there is a way to get under that hood and
do some things your own way. Well, OK, only some things. 32 megs times
two isn't very much these days. Of course, you can spend another $500
and put a 5 gig PCMCIA harddisk in the PCM slot. Hopefully, you could
run emacspeak from there. I don't know, it would be interesting to find
out.

Now, of course, if you're happy running over Win-CE, then the Braille
Note is probably slicker. I'd get that ethernet nic, and figure out how
to connect to my Linux servers. I'm sure it can be done by running
Samba, for example.

Still, when I look at all the options, bearing in mind always the money
involved, it just doesn't make sense to me. But, that's me, and I'm not
you.

What you should do, since it's so much money, is tget one for 30-day
trial, or 15-day trial. They should be willing to do that, for all that
money. I certainly wouldn't spend it without spending hours working with
the unit. After all, you'll probably need to live with it for years and
years whichever one you actually get.

Good luck, and please don't hesitate to ask for more thoughts.