Re: suggestions for Speakup

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Adam Myrow]

I still feel that reinitializing the synthesizer is an important feature
to have.  The Accent SA I'm using, if turned off and on, becomes extremely
sluggish.  That is, it takes like 5 to 10 seconds for it to respond to
each keystroke.  If it is turned off and back on, nothing in the world
except a reboot will get it back.  Of course, the obvious answer is not to
turn it off, but then if the rate or speed get out of whack, you're right
back to square 1.  I will certainly give Chuck's suggestion a try and see
if it solves the issue.

On the subject of frames or windows, I didn't just want this to keep up
with DOS and Windows screen readers.  I was actually thinking of Lmme, the
MSN Messenger clone, as well as CD players which have a track time that
counts up continuously.  Both of these would benefit from being able to
silence a portion of the screen, and so would Pine, Tin, Lynx, and
countless other curses-based applications which provide a status line.  Of
course, as Kirk said, it's a lot of work.

I wasn't casting disrespect on Speakup because it isn't perfect.  In fact,
I have never seen any other screen reader that lets one hear speech from
startup to shutdown and lets them even install an operating system from
the ground up.  With the high demand for software synthesis, I am greatly
concerned that we will lose this feature when Speakup has to wait for
sound card initialization before it can talk.  In an ideal world, we
wouldn't need software synthesis support because everybody would have
hardware synthesizers and not have to watch their computer's performance
go out the window because a software synthesizer is eating up memory and
resources, and we wouldn't need a frames feature because all applications
would have nice, screen-reader friendly interfaces.  However, this is a
sighted world and a screen reader's job, in my opinion, is to give a
blind person the same access to the computer as the sighted user wherever
practical.  When we are forced to use an older version of an application
because our screen reader hasn't caught up, this is not happening.  That
is one thing about Speakup that makes it stand above the Windows and DOS
crowd.  When it is discovered that a new Linux kernel breaks the Speakup
patches, Kirk is out with a fix that not only gets Speakup working with
the new kernel, but maintains backwards compatibility with older kernels
as well.

Well, sorry for the rant, but I really wanted to clear up what looked like
a miss-understanding of my intent and explain where I am coming from.

Adam

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Geoff Shang]

On Fri, 11 Jan 2002, Adam Myrow wrote:

> With the high demand for software synthesis, I am greatly
> concerned that we will lose this feature when Speakup has to wait for
> sound card initialization before it can talk.

It is true that speakup will have to wait for soundcard initialisation
before it can use software speech, but this will not affect the current
situation.  You will still be able to compile hardware synth drivers into
the kernel and get speech from kernel load.

Geoff.

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Charles Hallenbeck]

Adam -
I am in agreement with most of what you said below, especially
that it is our own task to figure out how to deal with stuff
designed for the sighted world if at all possible. The intimate
connection between speakup and the OS is extremely valuable. I
have seen a number of other projects start off as neat little
lean and mean applications that grew like topsy out of control
when enthusiastic users began bombarding the developer with
requests for "just one more simple feature", and there comes a
time when a developer has to take a tough stand and apply careful
criteria to decide what gets added and what does not. Do give
that initialization thing a spin and see if it does the trick for
your accent synth problem. If it does not do it, then something
stronger is definitely indicated. Maybe another OS trick, or
maybe a speakup feature. But let's exhaust the less expensive
alternatives first.

Regards - Chuck


On Fri, 11 Jan 2002, Adam Myrow wrote:

> I still feel that reinitializing the synthesizer is an important feature
> to have.  The Accent SA I'm using, if turned off and on, becomes extremely
> sluggish.  That is, it takes like 5 to 10 seconds for it to respond to
> each keystroke.  If it is turned off and back on, nothing in the world
> except a reboot will get it back.  Of course, the obvious answer is not to
> turn it off, but then if the rate or speed get out of whack, you're right
> back to square 1.  I will certainly give Chuck's suggestion a try and see
> if it solves the issue.
>
> On the subject of frames or windows, I didn't just want this to keep up
> with DOS and Windows screen readers.  I was actually thinking of Lmme, the
> MSN Messenger clone, as well as CD players which have a track time that
> counts up continuously.  Both of these would benefit from being able to
> silence a portion of the screen, and so would Pine, Tin, Lynx, and
> countless other curses-based applications which provide a status line.  Of
> course, as Kirk said, it's a lot of work.
>
> I wasn't casting disrespect on Speakup because it isn't perfect.  In fact,
> I have never seen any other screen reader that lets one hear speech from
> startup to shutdown and lets them even install an operating system from
> the ground up.  With the high demand for software synthesis, I am greatly
> concerned that we will lose this feature when Speakup has to wait for
> sound card initialization before it can talk.  In an ideal world, we
> wouldn't need software synthesis support because everybody would have
> hardware synthesizers and not have to watch their computer's performance
> go out the window because a software synthesizer is eating up memory and
> resources, and we wouldn't need a frames feature because all applications
> would have nice, screen-reader friendly interfaces.  However, this is a
> sighted world and a screen reader's job, in my opinion, is to give a
> blind person the same access to the computer as the sighted user wherever
> practical.  When we are forced to use an older version of an application
> because our screen reader hasn't caught up, this is not happening.  That
> is one thing about Speakup that makes it stand above the Windows and DOS
> crowd.  When it is discovered that a new Linux kernel breaks the Speakup
> patches, Kirk is out with a fix that not only gets Speakup working with
> the new kernel, but maintains backwards compatibility with older kernels
> as well.
>
> Well, sorry for the rant, but I really wanted to clear up what looked like
> a miss-understanding of my intent and explain where I am coming from.
>
> Adam
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*
Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh
The Moon is Waning Crescent (1% of Full)

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Geoff Shang]

On Mon, 14 Jan 2002, Thomas Ward wrote:

> Yeah, and I can't find anything on Force Computers web site.

I have the dec express manual, and so do a number of others.  If you want
something, just speak up and ask for it.

Geoff.

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Gregory Nowak]

Ok, but won't things get screwed up with the synth if you run it in dosemu as opposed to native DOS?
Greg


On Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 10:12:30AM -0600, Thomas Stivers wrote:
> Your best bet is the dosemu idea, I looked at the chip set docs for the
> doubletalk and you have to get some windows program to compile the exception
> dictionary for the doubletalk which kind of defeats the purpose.
> 
> Thomas Stivers
> stivers_t@mail.utexas.edu
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kirk Wood" <cpt.kirk@1tree.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 6:54 AM
> Subject: Re: suggestions for Speakup
> 
> 
> > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > > Hmmmm, what if I don't want to waid through chip set documentation?
> >
> > Guess as normal you have choices. You could use DOS. You could try the
> > utility under DOSemu. You could wait for someone to provide you with an
> > alternate means.
> >
> > And answering the questions I can is why I am here.
> >
> > =======
> > Kirk Wood
> > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
> >
> > Nowlan's Theory:
> >         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
> >         the next freeway exit.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Thomas Stivers]

Your best bet is the dosemu idea, I looked at the chip set docs for the
doubletalk and you have to get some windows program to compile the exception
dictionary for the doubletalk which kind of defeats the purpose.

Thomas Stivers
stivers_t@mail.utexas.edu
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kirk Wood" <cpt.kirk@1tree.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 6:54 AM
Subject: Re: suggestions for Speakup


> On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > Hmmmm, what if I don't want to waid through chip set documentation?
>
> Guess as normal you have choices. You could use DOS. You could try the
> utility under DOSemu. You could wait for someone to provide you with an
> alternate means.
>
> And answering the questions I can is why I am here.
>
> =======
> Kirk Wood
> Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
>
> Nowlan's Theory:
>         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
>         the next freeway exit.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Janina Sajka]

Saqib:

Please convey to the other 0.5 the importance of running the draft by this 
group. Until thenIBM does not have a 1.0.

Please reassure me this will happen. It's World War III if it doesn't.

On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Saqib Shaikh wrote:

> At least 0.5 of us are listening, and I'll make sure the rest of us does!
> 
> It's a bit too late for speakup-howto 1.0 but we'll consider for 2.0.  Maybe
> a "neat little tricks" section?
> 
> Saqib
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 4:28 PM
> Subject: Re: suggestions for Speakup
> 
> 
> > On Fri, 11 Jan 2002, Charles Hallenbeck wrote:
> >
> > > Stick to the straight and
> > > narrow and make sure each feature under consideration really
> > > belongs in a screen reader. Examples: the cut and paste feature
> > > really did belong; the reinitialization feature really does not.
> > >
> > Strongly agree, but with a suggested twist.
> >
> > The reinitialization feature should go into the HOWTO that Saqib and IBM
> > are authoring about speakup. It's a valuable tip that even novice users
> > can set up for themselves, and learn a little linux in the process. And,
> > they'll end up with a feature they are likely to find useful, and that
> > they wouldn't come upon very quickly on their own.
> >
> > Saqib, Jennifer, are you listening??
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Thomas Ward]

Yeah, and I can't find anything on Force Computers web site.Ever since Force
took over the Dectalk line I can't even find the latest firmware for it.
So I am going to have to email them, and find out were all the goodies are.


----- Original Message -----
From: Kirk Wood <cpt.kirk@1tree.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 8:00 AM
Subject: Re: suggestions for Speakup


> On Mon, 14 Jan 2002, Thomas Ward wrote:
> > Yeah, but I am using a Dectalk Express. I need documentation for my
synth.
>
> Have you gone to your manufacturer's web site and looked for
> documentation? Or are you waiting for someone to do it for you?
>
> =======
> Kirk Wood
> Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
>
> Nowlan's Theory:
>         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
>         the next freeway exit.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Kirk Wood]

On Mon, 14 Jan 2002, Thomas Ward wrote:
> Yeah, but I am using a Dectalk Express. I need documentation for my synth.

Have you gone to your manufacturer's web site and looked for
documentation? Or are you waiting for someone to do it for you?

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Kirk Wood]

On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> Hmmmm, what if I don't want to waid through chip set documentation?

Guess as normal you have choices. You could use DOS. You could try the
utility under DOSemu. You could wait for someone to provide you with an
alternate means. 

And answering the questions I can is why I am here.

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Thomas Ward]

Yeah, but I am using a Dectalk Express. I need documentation for my synth.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Kirk Wood <cpt.kirk@1tree.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 7:41 PM
Subject: Re: suggestions for Speakup


> On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > The doubletalks can store dictionaries internally as well, though I
> > think you need to be in plain DOS for this.
> 
> There is a ready made utility to do this in DOS. But if you download the
> chipset documentation it spells out how you can manually create the
> exception dictionary.
> 
> =======
> Kirk Wood
> Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
> 
> Nowlan's Theory:
>         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
>         the next freeway exit.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Gregory Nowak]

Hmmmm, what if I don't want to waid through chip set documentation?
Greg


On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 06:41:37PM -0600, Kirk Wood wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > The doubletalks can store dictionaries internally as well, though I
> > think you need to be in plain DOS for this.
> 
> There is a ready made utility to do this in DOS. But if you download the
> chipset documentation it spells out how you can manually create the
> exception dictionary.
> 
> =======
> Kirk Wood
> Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
> 
> Nowlan's Theory:
>         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
>         the next freeway exit.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Kirk Wood]

On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> The doubletalks can store dictionaries internally as well, though I
> think you need to be in plain DOS for this.

There is a ready made utility to do this in DOS. But if you download the
chipset documentation it spells out how you can manually create the
exception dictionary.

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Gregory Nowak]

The doubletalks can store dictionaries internally as well, though I think you need to be in plain DOS for this.
Greg


On Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 11:35:03PM -0700, Steve Holmes wrote:
> If one owns a speakout, look at the appendix files at the end.  Sorry,
> can't remember which one off my head but there is one that explains all
> the possible command line parameters for the DOS driver and possible
> control-E prefixed commands that can be sent to the synth via
> /proc/speakup/speakout/direct.  In fact, I have a shell script that I can
> set the internal clock from the computer's clock
> 
> On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Thomas Ward wrote:
> 
> > Well, any ideas how to go about this?
> > However, it is still simplar if the screen reader itself supports the
> > dictionary.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Kirk Wood <cpt.kirk@1tree.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 12:45 AM
> > Subject: Re: suggestions for Speakup
> >
> >
> > > On Fri, 11 Jan 2002, Thomas Ward wrote:
> > > > Hi, while I agree that not all the features in other screen readers are
> > just
> > > > needed, but some are vary useful and helpful. One I'd rreally liked to
> > see
> > > > added to the todo list is an exception dictionary. For example when
> > writing
> > > > a program my synth might say printf when it is easier to read C code
> > when it
> > > > says print f.
> > >
> > > Don't most synths have an exception dictionary? The few that I have looked
> > > at specs for so. But nobody seems to use them. I would think that this
> > > would be a much better place to do that kind of work. I know it can't be
> > > as thorough as what you can do at the computer.
> > >
> > > =======
> > > Kirk Wood
> > > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
> > >
> > > Nowlan's Theory:
> > >         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
> > >         the next freeway exit.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Gregory Nowak]

Yes, and if you're eating a bannana, you can compare the taste of it to an orange too.
Greg


On Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 11:07:49PM -0700, Steve Holmes wrote:
> Only reason I could see some people doing this is that would be their
> reference, especially if they are new to linux and speakup.  They look at
> the current list of features with their "current" environment which may
> well be winblowsand perhaps DOS.  One sightable example might be
> windows/frames to speak selected parts of the screen.  Somebody might
> compare this with a similar feature available in their favorite winblows
> screen reader.
> 
> BTW, I see that as a valueable feature to read such things as status
> lines, top lines, etc.  What I do for an interim solution, I can
> continually respeak the same part of the screen over and over if I want by
> parking the cursor with the keypad-Dash key so the cursor won't move and
> then reading the current line.  Obviously nothing as powerful as user
> defined windows.
> 
> I wish I had more background knowledge on this so I could help towards
> bringing this feature to pass.
> 
> On Fri, 11 Jan 2002, Charles Hallenbeck wrote:
> 
> > On 11 Jan 2002, Kirk Reiser wrote:
> >
> > > On another note, mentioning that something should be there because it
> > > is part of windows/dos screen review packages is a non-starter with
> > > me.  That means we should do something because it is available in that
> > > other o.s.  I base what needs to be done on what features seem
> > > reasonable to provide better access to linux.  I am not at all
> > > interested in keeping up with those other packages.  So if you folks
> > > want to make a comparison based on features, you might as well just
> > > piss off.
> >
> > Kirk,
> >
> > I support your position completely! Speakup is at the point where
> > it is vulnerable to the bells and whistles syndrome, where folks
> > want to throw in the kitchen sink. Stick to the straight and
> > narrow and make sure each feature under consideration really
> > belongs in a screen reader. Examples: the cut and paste feature
> > really did belong; the reinitialization feature really does not.
> >
> > Chuck
> >
> >
> > *<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*
> > Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh
> > The Moon is Waning Crescent (4% of Full)
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Thomas Ward]

In my case I have a Dectalk Express. I can't find any documentation yet on
how to put exceptions into the synth itself.
Probably because I have never needed it until now.

----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Holmes <steve@holmesgrown.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 1:35 AM
Subject: Re: suggestions for Speakup


> If one owns a speakout, look at the appendix files at the end.  Sorry,
> can't remember which one off my head but there is one that explains all
> the possible command line parameters for the DOS driver and possible
> control-E prefixed commands that can be sent to the synth via
> /proc/speakup/speakout/direct.  In fact, I have a shell script that I can
> set the internal clock from the computer's clock
>
> On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Thomas Ward wrote:
>
> > Well, any ideas how to go about this?
> > However, it is still simplar if the screen reader itself supports the
> > dictionary.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Kirk Wood <cpt.kirk@1tree.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 12:45 AM
> > Subject: Re: suggestions for Speakup
> >
> >
> > > On Fri, 11 Jan 2002, Thomas Ward wrote:
> > > > Hi, while I agree that not all the features in other screen readers
are
> > just
> > > > needed, but some are vary useful and helpful. One I'd rreally liked
to
> > see
> > > > added to the todo list is an exception dictionary. For example when
> > writing
> > > > a program my synth might say printf when it is easier to read C code
> > when it
> > > > says print f.
> > >
> > > Don't most synths have an exception dictionary? The few that I have
looked
> > > at specs for so. But nobody seems to use them. I would think that this
> > > would be a much better place to do that kind of work. I know it can't
be
> > > as thorough as what you can do at the computer.
> > >
> > > =======
> > > Kirk Wood
> > > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
> > >
> > > Nowlan's Theory:
> > >         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
> > >         the next freeway exit.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Steve Holmes]

If one owns a speakout, look at the appendix files at the end.  Sorry,
can't remember which one off my head but there is one that explains all
the possible command line parameters for the DOS driver and possible
control-E prefixed commands that can be sent to the synth via
/proc/speakup/speakout/direct.  In fact, I have a shell script that I can
set the internal clock from the computer's clock

On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Thomas Ward wrote:

> Well, any ideas how to go about this?
> However, it is still simplar if the screen reader itself supports the
> dictionary.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Kirk Wood <cpt.kirk@1tree.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 12:45 AM
> Subject: Re: suggestions for Speakup
>
>
> > On Fri, 11 Jan 2002, Thomas Ward wrote:
> > > Hi, while I agree that not all the features in other screen readers are
> just
> > > needed, but some are vary useful and helpful. One I'd rreally liked to
> see
> > > added to the todo list is an exception dictionary. For example when
> writing
> > > a program my synth might say printf when it is easier to read C code
> when it
> > > says print f.
> >
> > Don't most synths have an exception dictionary? The few that I have looked
> > at specs for so. But nobody seems to use them. I would think that this
> > would be a much better place to do that kind of work. I know it can't be
> > as thorough as what you can do at the computer.
> >
> > =======
> > Kirk Wood
> > Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
> >
> > Nowlan's Theory:
> >         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
> >         the next freeway exit.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Steve Holmes]

Internal devices such as modems and synthesisers don't have on/off
switches.  At least I've never seen one.  As for resetting the device, yes
you can reload the proc files for controling synth parms, but most synths
have a "setup string" You could echo that to the synth to reset the synth
also.

On Fri, 11 Jan 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:

> Right, because Chuck outlined a good way of doing that with an internal as well as external synth. It certainly was a procedure I would not have thought of.
> Greg
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 09:29:17AM -0600, Jason Symes wrote:
> > Wrong. If a synth goes whacky, it must be reinitialized to get it to work
> > right, and not all synths have an on/off switch.
> > At 10:06 AM 1/11/02 -0500, you wrote:
> > >On 11 Jan 2002, Kirk Reiser wrote:
> > >
> > >> On another note, mentioning that something should be there because it
> > >> is part of windows/dos screen review packages is a non-starter with
> > >> me.  That means we should do something because it is available in that
> > >> other o.s.  I base what needs to be done on what features seem
> > >> reasonable to provide better access to linux.  I am not at all
> > >> interested in keeping up with those other packages.  So if you folks
> > >> want to make a comparison based on features, you might as well just
> > >> piss off.
> > >
> > >Kirk,
> > >
> > >I support your position completely! Speakup is at the point where
> > >it is vulnerable to the bells and whistles syndrome, where folks
> > >want to throw in the kitchen sink. Stick to the straight and
> > >narrow and make sure each feature under consideration really
> > >belongs in a screen reader. Examples: the cut and paste feature
> > >really did belong; the reinitialization feature really does not.
> > >
> > >Chuck
> > >
> > >
> > >*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*
> > >Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh
> > >The Moon is Waning Crescent (4% of Full)
> > >
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Speakup mailing list
> > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > Jason Symes
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Steve Holmes]

Only reason I could see some people doing this is that would be their
reference, especially if they are new to linux and speakup.  They look at
the current list of features with their "current" environment which may
well be winblowsand perhaps DOS.  One sightable example might be
windows/frames to speak selected parts of the screen.  Somebody might
compare this with a similar feature available in their favorite winblows
screen reader.

BTW, I see that as a valueable feature to read such things as status
lines, top lines, etc.  What I do for an interim solution, I can
continually respeak the same part of the screen over and over if I want by
parking the cursor with the keypad-Dash key so the cursor won't move and
then reading the current line.  Obviously nothing as powerful as user
defined windows.

I wish I had more background knowledge on this so I could help towards
bringing this feature to pass.

On Fri, 11 Jan 2002, Charles Hallenbeck wrote:

> On 11 Jan 2002, Kirk Reiser wrote:
>
> > On another note, mentioning that something should be there because it
> > is part of windows/dos screen review packages is a non-starter with
> > me.  That means we should do something because it is available in that
> > other o.s.  I base what needs to be done on what features seem
> > reasonable to provide better access to linux.  I am not at all
> > interested in keeping up with those other packages.  So if you folks
> > want to make a comparison based on features, you might as well just
> > piss off.
>
> Kirk,
>
> I support your position completely! Speakup is at the point where
> it is vulnerable to the bells and whistles syndrome, where folks
> want to throw in the kitchen sink. Stick to the straight and
> narrow and make sure each feature under consideration really
> belongs in a screen reader. Examples: the cut and paste feature
> really did belong; the reinitialization feature really does not.
>
> Chuck
>
>
> *<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*
> Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh
> The Moon is Waning Crescent (4% of Full)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Geoff Shang]

Hi:

A couple of comments.

A number of these issues, like the pine indexing, should be dealt with once
the cursoring is figured out properly.  This is not trivial - it's been
worked on for the past 2 years.

I like the capitalisation idea.  However, things like printf are, IMHO, a
personal choice and should be left for a dictionary.  Personally, I want
speakup to say "printf", so I know I've actually written "printf" and not
"print f".  My accent PC says "write line" for "writeln" (a pascal and
javascript print command), which I find annoying enough.

Geoff.

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Kirk Wood]

A macro should be called a macro and not something else. Piss on those who
are too stupid to know that not all macros are virus laden. And I think
(the other) Kirk has made it clear that his priorities are based on his
use. There is no reason outside getting a big head to be "competitive" 
with other speech packages. And I am glad that Kirk doesn't have a big
head.

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Saqib Shaikh]

At least 0.5 of us are listening, and I'll make sure the rest of us does!

It's a bit too late for speakup-howto 1.0 but we'll consider for 2.0.  Maybe
a "neat little tricks" section?

Saqib
----- Original Message -----
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: suggestions for Speakup


> On Fri, 11 Jan 2002, Charles Hallenbeck wrote:
>
> > Stick to the straight and
> > narrow and make sure each feature under consideration really
> > belongs in a screen reader. Examples: the cut and paste feature
> > really did belong; the reinitialization feature really does not.
> >
> Strongly agree, but with a suggested twist.
>
> The reinitialization feature should go into the HOWTO that Saqib and IBM
> are authoring about speakup. It's a valuable tip that even novice users
> can set up for themselves, and learn a little linux in the process. And,
> they'll end up with a feature they are likely to find useful, and that
> they wouldn't come upon very quickly on their own.
>
> Saqib, Jennifer, are you listening??
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Amanda Lee]

Please don't call it a "macro" that sounds too much like a virus and and too
much like Just for Whims talk!  I really don't care what it is called  but
yes there does need to be, as time permits it, a more flexible means to
configure across different applications and individual needs.  If Speakup
wants to compete on this platform and to hold it's ground, then it will be
necessary to  offer more of those "bells and whistles" which one may or not
consider personally important.

First off, it's important that Speakup is stable, supports a variety of
speech synthesizers and can at least support the typical functionality of a
dos or text-oriented screen reader.  If the author(s) aren't vested in this,
then since it's based upon their unpaid input, then this is obviously their
hchoice.

It wouldn't surprise me though, that once Linux emerges as a more commonly
utilized platform in Government and in the work and educational place, then
there's nothing to prevent another vendor from developing a Linux Screen
Reader to market for Accessibility.
So wether or not Speakup wants a competative edge, is obviously not my
decision to make.  But I'd certainly prefer seeing Speakup emerge as the
preferred Screen Reader for Linux.

Amanda Lee
Alexandria, VA

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Gregory Nowak]

Even though I don't use pine, this way of reading messages in it suggests the usefullness of a macro system in speakup.
Greg


On Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 12:29:37PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Jan 2002, Thomas Ward wrote:
> 
> > For example while in pine it reads the prier email subject and then the
> > current one. I'd much rather see that quark be fixed rather than search
> 
> There's an easy way around this for most folks.
> 
> When in the Pine index of messages screen, use your thumb on the down 
> arrow key. Use your middle finger on the 8 key on the numeric keypad. 
> 
> Now, press down arrow with your thumb to move to the next message, but 
> don't wait for speakup to talk. Instead, just press 8 on the numeric to 
> cause it to read the current line.
> 
> If I couldn't do this I'd go crazy with the hundreds of messages I plow 
> through weekly.
> 
> Of course, there are folks with disabilities (in addition to blindness) 
> who can't do this.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Kirk Wood]

On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Thomas Ward wrote:
> Well, any ideas how to go about this?
> However, it is still simplar if the screen reader itself supports the
> dictionary.

The documentation for your synth should tell you how to impliment
this. And it is only simpler for you to do this in the speech program. And
that is only because you don't have to look up how to do it. The reality
is that most should be done in the synth. Then it only beed be done
once. Take the synth to a new computer, and your exception dictionary is
still there. Use a new speech program and it is still there.

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Janina Sajka]

No, unfortunately there are synths that do not support exceptions 
dictionaries. I'd wager that's most synths that except this feature on the 
software, not the hardware side.

				Janina

Who's patiently waiting to hear her name correctly pronounced by her 
computer, but won't go back to Windows just for that simple pleasure ...

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Janina Sajka]

On Fri, 11 Jan 2002, Thomas Ward wrote:

> For example while in pine it reads the prier email subject and then the
> current one. I'd much rather see that quark be fixed rather than search

There's an easy way around this for most folks.

When in the Pine index of messages screen, use your thumb on the down 
arrow key. Use your middle finger on the 8 key on the numeric keypad. 

Now, press down arrow with your thumb to move to the next message, but 
don't wait for speakup to talk. Instead, just press 8 on the numeric to 
cause it to read the current line.

If I couldn't do this I'd go crazy with the hundreds of messages I plow 
through weekly.

Of course, there are folks with disabilities (in addition to blindness) 
who can't do this.

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Janina Sajka]

On Fri, 11 Jan 2002, Charles Hallenbeck wrote:

> Stick to the straight and
> narrow and make sure each feature under consideration really
> belongs in a screen reader. Examples: the cut and paste feature
> really did belong; the reinitialization feature really does not.
> 
Strongly agree, but with a suggested twist.

The reinitialization feature should go into the HOWTO that Saqib and IBM 
are authoring about speakup. It's a valuable tip that even novice users 
can set up for themselves, and learn a little linux in the process. And, 
they'll end up with a feature they are likely to find useful, and that 
they wouldn't come upon very quickly on their own.

Saqib, Jennifer, are you listening??

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Thomas Ward]

Well, any ideas how to go about this?
However, it is still simplar if the screen reader itself supports the
dictionary.

----- Original Message -----
From: Kirk Wood <cpt.kirk@1tree.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 12:45 AM
Subject: Re: suggestions for Speakup


> On Fri, 11 Jan 2002, Thomas Ward wrote:
> > Hi, while I agree that not all the features in other screen readers are
just
> > needed, but some are vary useful and helpful. One I'd rreally liked to
see
> > added to the todo list is an exception dictionary. For example when
writing
> > a program my synth might say printf when it is easier to read C code
when it
> > says print f.
>
> Don't most synths have an exception dictionary? The few that I have looked
> at specs for so. But nobody seems to use them. I would think that this
> would be a much better place to do that kind of work. I know it can't be
> as thorough as what you can do at the computer.
>
> =======
> Kirk Wood
> Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net
>
> Nowlan's Theory:
>         He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
>         the next freeway exit.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Thomas Ward]

Hi, I never heard about that method before. I'll have to try it.

----- Original Message -----
From: Geoff Shang <gshang@uq.net.au>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 11:08 PM
Subject: Re: suggestions for Speakup


> On Fri, 11 Jan 2002, Thomas Ward wrote:
>
> > For example while in pine it reads the prier email subject and then the
> > current one. I'd much rather see that quark be fixed rather than search
> > features, exception dictionaries, etc.
>
> I assume this is when you arrow or use n and p to move through the index,
> but you didn't say so I'm having to guess here.  This is because pine is
> defaulted to show the selected message in a different type to all the
> others, and thus it has to rewrite the prior entry before highlighting the
> new one.  This is a common problem in many applications.
>
> As an aside, I have "assume slow link" on which doesn't use such
> highlighting, it just uses a greaterthan symbol to point out the current
> message.  Although, if you're relying on prev and next to give you the
> subject, this won't help you as it doesn't have to reprint the subject
> anymore.  This doesn't personally bother me as I use speakup's reviewkeys
> to read the index and just enter the message number of the message I want
> (made easier with enable jump shortcut).
>
> Geoff.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Kirk Wood]

On Fri, 11 Jan 2002, Thomas Ward wrote:
> Hi, while I agree that not all the features in other screen readers are just
> needed, but some are vary useful and helpful. One I'd rreally liked to see
> added to the todo list is an exception dictionary. For example when writing
> a program my synth might say printf when it is easier to read C code when it
> says print f.

Don't most synths have an exception dictionary? The few that I have looked
at specs for so. But nobody seems to use them. I would think that this
would be a much better place to do that kind of work. I know it can't be
as thorough as what you can do at the computer.

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Geoff Shang]

On Fri, 11 Jan 2002, Thomas Ward wrote:

> For example while in pine it reads the prier email subject and then the
> current one. I'd much rather see that quark be fixed rather than search
> features, exception dictionaries, etc.

I assume this is when you arrow or use n and p to move through the index,
but you didn't say so I'm having to guess here.  This is because pine is
defaulted to show the selected message in a different type to all the
others, and thus it has to rewrite the prior entry before highlighting the
new one.  This is a common problem in many applications.

As an aside, I have "assume slow link" on which doesn't use such
highlighting, it just uses a greaterthan symbol to point out the current
message.  Although, if you're relying on prev and next to give you the
subject, this won't help you as it doesn't have to reprint the subject
anymore.  This doesn't personally bother me as I use speakup's reviewkeys
to read the index and just enter the message number of the message I want
(made easier with enable jump shortcut).

Geoff.

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Thomas Ward]

Hi, while I agree that not all the features in other screen readers are just
needed, but some are vary useful and helpful. One I'd rreally liked to see
added to the todo list is an exception dictionary. For example when writing
a program my synth might say printf when it is easier to read C code when it
says print f.
However, I much rather see stability and known bugs to be fixed before new
fangled features were put in.
For example while in pine it reads the prier email subject and then the
current one. I'd much rather see that quark be fixed rather than search
features, exception dictionaries, etc.

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Geoff Shang]

Hi:

I've never come across a situation where insert-enter hasn't been
sufficient to restore the synth.  Keypad-enter will reset some settings on
its own, like pitch.

Geoff.

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Kirk Wood]

First, I want to say that I agree with the other Kirk on the need for
features. The truth is that many features added to software are there to
justify an upgrade. That is the only reason many features are there. It
seems fixing your bugs isn't a good enough reason to get people to pay for
upgrades.

As for the blinking clocks or whatever, the best thing is to vote against
the programs by not using them. Having said that, it seems that most of
that crap is in the DOS/winblows world. Perhaps again because such things
are designed to sell ignoramous people on buying another upgrade.

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Raul A. Gallegos]

Amanda Lee said the following on Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 04:24:30PM -0500:
> Some status lines are pretty obnoxious with blinking clocks and junk like
> that.  Haven't seen much of this in linux/unix but at times you just don't
> want to hear everythint that is displayed on the screen each time you get
> a screenful.
> 
> Amanda Lee

I agree here.  Most programs do have a flag or setting to turn off
clocks, etc but some don't and not everyone who uses them will know to
just hack the source code to avoid the clocks, etc.  Having this feature
would make it a little easier for the newbie.  I personally prefer the
hack coding to avoid blinking status bars, etc but that is my personal
approach.

Best regards.
--
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Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Raul A. Gallegos]

This is dos thinking.  You do not need to initialize a synth in Linux.
As Kirk stated unplug it or recycle it and all will be well with it.

Jason Symes said the following on Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 09:29:17AM -0600:
> Wrong. If a synth goes whacky, it must be reinitialized to get it to work
> right, and not all synths have an on/off switch.

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Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Raul A. Gallegos]

Kirk Reiser said the following on Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 09:48:17AM -0500:
> On another note, mentioning that something should be there because it
> is part of windows/dos screen review packages is a non-starter with
> me.  That means we should do something because it is available in that
> other o.s.  I base what needs to be done on what features seem
> reasonable to provide better access to linux.  I am not at all
> interested in keeping up with those other packages.  So if you folks
> want to make a comparison based on features, you might as well just
> piss off.


In that case Kirk.  How about scripting support for speakup.  *big
grin*  Oh, and don't forget about adding msaa support as well for using 
lynx.  lol.

Sorry, I could not pass that one up.  I'll go back to my hole now.

-- 
We are writing this e-mail to inform you that the mail server is down.
Please do not call the help desk for assistance.  To see the progress of
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Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Amanda Lee]

Some status lines are pretty obnoxious with blinking clocks and junk like
that.  Haven't seen much of this in linux/unix but at times you just don't
want to hear everythint that is displayed on the screen each time you get
a screenful.

Amanda Lee


On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Shaun Oliver wrote:

> just to ad to this thread,
> could some of what's ben suggested not be handled by the user writing a
> shell script or as chuck suggested just not worrying about it?
> I find speakup works fine as it is.
> the numlock feature is certainly a good idea. as for the frames/windows,
> right at the moment I don't know why I'd want some parts of the screen
> not spoken.
> that's just my thoughts anyhow.
> On Fri, 11 Jan 2002, Charles Hallenbeck
> wrote:
>
> > On 11 Jan 2002, Kirk Reiser wrote:
> >
> > > On another note, mentioning that something should be there because it
> > > is part of windows/dos screen review packages is a non-starter with
> > > me.  That means we should do something because it is available in that
> > > other o.s.  I base what needs to be done on what features seem
> > > reasonable to provide better access to linux.  I am not at all
> > > interested in keeping up with those other packages.  So if you folks
> > > want to make a comparison based on features, you might as well just
> > > piss off.
> >
> > Kirk,
> >
> > I support your position completely! Speakup is at the point where
> > it is vulnerable to the bells and whistles syndrome, where folks
> > want to throw in the kitchen sink. Stick to the straight and
> > narrow and make sure each feature under consideration really
> > belongs in a screen reader. Examples: the cut and paste feature
> > really did belong; the reinitialization feature really does not.
> >
> > Chuck
> >
> >
> > *<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*
> > Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh
> > The Moon is Waning Crescent (4% of Full)
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> --
> Shaun Oliver
>
> Marriage is a three ring circus:
> engagement ring, wedding ring, and suffering.
>                 -- Roger Price
>
> Email: shauno@goanna.net.au
> Icq: 76958435
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Gregory Nowak]

Right, because Chuck outlined a good way of doing that with an internal as well as external synth. It certainly was a procedure I would not have thought of.
Greg


On Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 09:29:17AM -0600, Jason Symes wrote:
> Wrong. If a synth goes whacky, it must be reinitialized to get it to work
> right, and not all synths have an on/off switch.
> At 10:06 AM 1/11/02 -0500, you wrote:
> >On 11 Jan 2002, Kirk Reiser wrote:
> >
> >> On another note, mentioning that something should be there because it
> >> is part of windows/dos screen review packages is a non-starter with
> >> me.  That means we should do something because it is available in that
> >> other o.s.  I base what needs to be done on what features seem
> >> reasonable to provide better access to linux.  I am not at all
> >> interested in keeping up with those other packages.  So if you folks
> >> want to make a comparison based on features, you might as well just
> >> piss off.
> >
> >Kirk,
> >
> >I support your position completely! Speakup is at the point where
> >it is vulnerable to the bells and whistles syndrome, where folks
> >want to throw in the kitchen sink. Stick to the straight and
> >narrow and make sure each feature under consideration really
> >belongs in a screen reader. Examples: the cut and paste feature
> >really did belong; the reinitialization feature really does not.
> >
> >Chuck
> >
> >
> >*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*
> >Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh
> >The Moon is Waning Crescent (4% of Full)
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> Jason Symes
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Shaun Oliver]

just to ad to this thread,
could some of what's ben suggested not be handled by the user writing a
shell script or as chuck suggested just not worrying about it?
I find speakup works fine as it is.
the numlock feature is certainly a good idea. as for the frames/windows, 
right at the moment I don't know why I'd want some parts of the screen
not spoken.
that's just my thoughts anyhow.
On Fri, 11 Jan 2002, Charles Hallenbeck
wrote:

> On 11 Jan 2002, Kirk Reiser wrote:
> 
> > On another note, mentioning that something should be there because it
> > is part of windows/dos screen review packages is a non-starter with
> > me.  That means we should do something because it is available in that
> > other o.s.  I base what needs to be done on what features seem
> > reasonable to provide better access to linux.  I am not at all
> > interested in keeping up with those other packages.  So if you folks
> > want to make a comparison based on features, you might as well just
> > piss off.
> 
> Kirk,
> 
> I support your position completely! Speakup is at the point where
> it is vulnerable to the bells and whistles syndrome, where folks
> want to throw in the kitchen sink. Stick to the straight and
> narrow and make sure each feature under consideration really
> belongs in a screen reader. Examples: the cut and paste feature
> really did belong; the reinitialization feature really does not.
> 
> Chuck
> 
> 
> *<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*
> Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh
> The Moon is Waning Crescent (4% of Full)
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
Shaun Oliver

Marriage is a three ring circus:
engagement ring, wedding ring, and suffering.
                -- Roger Price

Email: shauno@goanna.net.au
Icq: 76958435

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Kirk Reiser]

Jason Symes <jsymes@netins.net> writes:

> Wrong. If a synth goes whacky, it must be reinitialized to get it to work
> right, and not all synths have an on/off switch.

Wrong!  If a synth is running under linux it can be re-initialized.
If a synth is running under dos/dos-emu and you want it re-initialized
then write the code.  If a synth doesn't have an on/off switch then
unplug it.  If it only runs with batteries I'd like to know how they
did it.

  Kirk

-- 

Kirk Reiser				The Computer Braille Facility
e-mail: kirk@braille.uwo.ca		University of Western Ontario
phone: (519) 661-3061

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Jason Symes]

Wrong. If a synth goes whacky, it must be reinitialized to get it to work
right, and not all synths have an on/off switch.
At 10:06 AM 1/11/02 -0500, you wrote:
>On 11 Jan 2002, Kirk Reiser wrote:
>
>> On another note, mentioning that something should be there because it
>> is part of windows/dos screen review packages is a non-starter with
>> me.  That means we should do something because it is available in that
>> other o.s.  I base what needs to be done on what features seem
>> reasonable to provide better access to linux.  I am not at all
>> interested in keeping up with those other packages.  So if you folks
>> want to make a comparison based on features, you might as well just
>> piss off.
>
>Kirk,
>
>I support your position completely! Speakup is at the point where
>it is vulnerable to the bells and whistles syndrome, where folks
>want to throw in the kitchen sink. Stick to the straight and
>narrow and make sure each feature under consideration really
>belongs in a screen reader. Examples: the cut and paste feature
>really did belong; the reinitialization feature really does not.
>
>Chuck
>
>
>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*
>Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh
>The Moon is Waning Crescent (4% of Full)
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
Jason Symes

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Charles Hallenbeck]

On 11 Jan 2002, Kirk Reiser wrote:

> On another note, mentioning that something should be there because it
> is part of windows/dos screen review packages is a non-starter with
> me.  That means we should do something because it is available in that
> other o.s.  I base what needs to be done on what features seem
> reasonable to provide better access to linux.  I am not at all
> interested in keeping up with those other packages.  So if you folks
> want to make a comparison based on features, you might as well just
> piss off.

Kirk,

I support your position completely! Speakup is at the point where
it is vulnerable to the bells and whistles syndrome, where folks
want to throw in the kitchen sink. Stick to the straight and
narrow and make sure each feature under consideration really
belongs in a screen reader. Examples: the cut and paste feature
really did belong; the reinitialization feature really does not.

Chuck


*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*<<<=-=>>>*
Visit me at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh
The Moon is Waning Crescent (4% of Full)

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Kirk Reiser]

Adam Myrow <myrow@eskimo.com> writes:

> Here are two things I would like to see some future version of Speakup be
> able to do.  First, I'd like to see a way of turning off the keypad.  For
> example, when numlock is on, the keypad would act normally and type
> numbers.  The second is some sort of frames or windows support.  What I
> mean is the feature where you can designate a part of the screen, say,
> lines 2 and 3, and instruct the screen reader to ignore these lines, but
> let you have them spoken on demand with a hot key.  Both DOS and Windows
> screen readers can do this, but I have no idea how it would be done in
> Speakup's current state since it can't save settings directly.  What do
> you all think of these ideas?  Are they doable?

They are both good ideas and are both already in the todo file in the
speakup distribution.

As of last night, the 2.4.x speakup branch has the numlock on/off
support built-in.  The 2.2.x branch is currently broken and I am
working on fixing that.

The frame/windows suggestion is one which will take a lot of work to
implement and although it is in the todo list it is certainly not high
on my priority list.

Some one else requested a search feature; I also think this is a good
idea and will put it in the todo list.  I don't know when I'll get
around to looking at that one.

On another note, mentioning that something should be there because it
is part of windows/dos screen review packages is a non-starter with
me.  That means we should do something because it is available in that
other o.s.  I base what needs to be done on what features seem
reasonable to provide better access to linux.  I am not at all
interested in keeping up with those other packages.  So if you folks
want to make a comparison based on features, you might as well just
piss off.

  Kirk

-- 

Kirk Reiser				The Computer Braille Facility
e-mail: kirk@braille.uwo.ca		University of Western Ontario
phone: (519) 661-3061

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Thomas Ward]

They are good ideas. Even perhaps even necessary ones.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: Adam Myrow <myrow@eskimo.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 7:55 PM
Subject: suggestions for Speakup


> Here are two things I would like to see some future version of Speakup be
> able to do.  First, I'd like to see a way of turning off the keypad.  For
> example, when numlock is on, the keypad would act normally and type
> numbers.  The second is some sort of frames or windows support.  What I
> mean is the feature where you can designate a part of the screen, say,
> lines 2 and 3, and instruct the screen reader to ignore these lines, but
> let you have them spoken on demand with a hot key.  Both DOS and Windows
> screen readers can do this, but I have no idea how it would be done in
> Speakup's current state since it can't save settings directly.  What do
> you all think of these ideas?  Are they doable?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: suggestions for Speakup

[Gregory Nowak]

Maybe, if someone is going to sit down and code them.
Greg

On Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 06:55:36PM -0600, Adam Myrow wrote:
> Here are two things I would like to see some future version of Speakup be
> able to do.  First, I'd like to see a way of turning off the keypad.  For
> example, when numlock is on, the keypad would act normally and type
> numbers.  The second is some sort of frames or windows support.  What I
> mean is the feature where you can designate a part of the screen, say,
> lines 2 and 3, and instruct the screen reader to ignore these lines, but
> let you have them spoken on demand with a hot key.  Both DOS and Windows
> screen readers can do this, but I have no idea how it would be done in
> Speakup's current state since it can't save settings directly.  What do
> you all think of these ideas?  Are they doable?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

suggestions for Speakup

[Adam Myrow]

Here are two things I would like to see some future version of Speakup be
able to do.  First, I'd like to see a way of turning off the keypad.  For
example, when numlock is on, the keypad would act normally and type
numbers.  The second is some sort of frames or windows support.  What I
mean is the feature where you can designate a part of the screen, say,
lines 2 and 3, and instruct the screen reader to ignore these lines, but
let you have them spoken on demand with a hot key.  Both DOS and Windows
screen readers can do this, but I have no idea how it would be done in
Speakup's current state since it can't save settings directly.  What do
you all think of these ideas?  Are they doable?