* supporting more than ttyS* @ Okash Khawaja ` Samuel Thibault ` Gregory Nowak 0 siblings, 2 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Okash Khawaja @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Samuel Thibault; +Cc: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. Hi, The obvious next step is ttyUSB*. What else can we support? Regarding the user interface, we add a module param which will be a string like "ttyUSB0". Internally we convert it to dev_t. When the param is not supplied, we use "ttyS0". Will that be okay? Finally, what do we do with ser module param? Keep it around for backward compatibility? Thanks, Okash ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: supporting more than ttyS* supporting more than ttyS* Okash Khawaja @ ` Samuel Thibault ` Gregory Nowak 1 sibling, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Samuel Thibault @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Okash Khawaja; +Cc: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. Okash Khawaja, on ven. 02 juin 2017 16:24:26 +0100, wrote: > The obvious next step is ttyUSB*. What else can we support? For the common uses, ttyUSB will be just enough I guess. > Regarding the user interface, we add a module param which will be a > string like "ttyUSB0". Internally we convert it to dev_t. Yes. > Finally, what do we do with ser module param? Keep it around for backward > compatibility? Yes. Samuel ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: supporting more than ttyS* supporting more than ttyS* Okash Khawaja ` Samuel Thibault @ ` Gregory Nowak ` Samuel Thibault 1 sibling, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Gregory Nowak @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup On Fri, Jun 02, 2017 at 04:24:26PM +0100, Okash Khawaja wrote: > The obvious next step is ttyUSB*. What else can we support? At least the braille blazer, and perhaps other synthesizers support being used via the parallel port /dev/lpx. Would supporting that be possible? Greg -- web site: http://www.gregn.net gpg public key: http://www.gregn.net/pubkey.asc skype: gregn1 (authorization required, add me to your contacts list first) If we haven't been in touch before, e-mail me before adding me to your contacts. -- Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: supporting more than ttyS* ` Gregory Nowak @ ` Samuel Thibault ` Gregory Nowak 0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Samuel Thibault @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. Gregory Nowak, on ven. 02 juin 2017 16:31:59 -0700, wrote: > On Fri, Jun 02, 2017 at 04:24:26PM +0100, Okash Khawaja wrote: > > The obvious next step is ttyUSB*. What else can we support? > > At least the braille blazer, and perhaps other synthesizers support > being used via the parallel port /dev/lpx. Would supporting that be > possible? Uh. Well, probably, actually. It's a matter of writing the driver, i.e. having a documentation of the protocol and somebody to do the tests, or better, lend the hardware for testing. Samuel ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: supporting more than ttyS* ` Samuel Thibault @ ` Gregory Nowak ` Samuel Thibault 0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Gregory Nowak @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. On Fri, Jun 02, 2017 at 07:56:57PM -0400, Samuel Thibault wrote: > Uh. Well, probably, actually. It's a matter of writing the driver, i.e. > having a documentation of the protocol and somebody to do the tests, or > better, lend the hardware for testing. We already have the driver, for serial anyway. The blazer uses the bns driver. It sounds from what you said like it wouldn't be straight forward to open the parallel port instead of the serial port, and just start writing to it. I thought actually that using the parallel port is more straight forward, since there are no parameters like baudrate, stopbits, parity, and handshaking to set. Am I totally off here? Greg -- web site: http://www.gregn.net gpg public key: http://www.gregn.net/pubkey.asc skype: gregn1 (authorization required, add me to your contacts list first) If we haven't been in touch before, e-mail me before adding me to your contacts. -- Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: supporting more than ttyS* ` Gregory Nowak @ ` Samuel Thibault ` Okash Khawaja ` Tom Fowle 0 siblings, 2 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Samuel Thibault @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. Gregory Nowak, on ven. 02 juin 2017 17:44:51 -0700, wrote: > On Fri, Jun 02, 2017 at 07:56:57PM -0400, Samuel Thibault wrote: > > Uh. Well, probably, actually. It's a matter of writing the driver, i.e. > > having a documentation of the protocol and somebody to do the tests, or > > better, lend the hardware for testing. > > We already have the driver, for serial anyway. The blazer uses the bns > driver. Ah, cool :) > It sounds from what you said like it wouldn't be straight > forward to open the parallel port instead of the serial port, and just > start writing to it. Yes, since /dev/lp* provide a tty interface, so the tty codebase should be able to use them. That actually shows that serdev is not enough for all our uses, so we'll really want to use the tty interface. > I thought actually that using the parallel port > is more straight forward, since there are no parameters like baudrate, > stopbits, parity, and handshaking to set. Am I totally off here? >From a tty perspective, it's just the same :) But yes, there are a lot less questions with a parallel port. Samuel ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: supporting more than ttyS* ` Samuel Thibault @ ` Okash Khawaja ` Samuel Thibault ` Tom Fowle 1 sibling, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Okash Khawaja @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. Cc: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. > On 3 Jun 2017, at 13:32, Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@ens-lyon.org> wrote: > > Gregory Nowak, on ven. 02 juin 2017 17:44:51 -0700, wrote: >>> On Fri, Jun 02, 2017 at 07:56:57PM -0400, Samuel Thibault wrote: >>> Uh. Well, probably, actually. It's a matter of writing the driver, i.e. >>> having a documentation of the protocol and somebody to do the tests, or >>> better, lend the hardware for testing. >> >> We already have the driver, for serial anyway. The blazer uses the bns >> driver. > > Ah, cool :) > >> It sounds from what you said like it wouldn't be straight >> forward to open the parallel port instead of the serial port, and just >> start writing to it. > > Yes, since /dev/lp* provide a tty interface, so the tty codebase should > be able to use them. That actually shows that serdev is not enough for > all our uses, so we'll really want to use the tty interface. True This sounds great. /dev/lp* support should be straightforward. I am thinking of adding ttyS* and ttyUSB* in the first pass. And then add lp* afterwards as that may require testing. Let me know if that's okay. Thanks, Okash ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: supporting more than ttyS* ` Okash Khawaja @ ` Samuel Thibault ` Okash Khawaja 0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Samuel Thibault @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. Okash Khawaja, on sam. 03 juin 2017 14:32:46 +0100, wrote: > This sounds great. /dev/lp* support should be straightforward. I am thinking of adding ttyS* and ttyUSB* in the first pass. And then add lp* afterwards as that may require testing. Let me know if that's okay. I'd say directly implement lp* too, so people can test already. Since it's chosen by a kernel parameter, it's not a problem if it actually fails somehow, even the nastiest way. Samuel ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: supporting more than ttyS* ` Samuel Thibault @ ` Okash Khawaja 0 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Okash Khawaja @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. Cc: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. > On 3 Jun 2017, at 15:16, Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@ens-lyon.org> wrote: > > Okash Khawaja, on sam. 03 juin 2017 14:32:46 +0100, wrote: >> This sounds great. /dev/lp* support should be straightforward. I am thinking of adding ttyS* and ttyUSB* in the first pass. And then add lp* afterwards as that may require testing. Let me know if that's okay. > > I'd say directly implement lp* too, so people can test already. Since > it's chosen by a kernel parameter, it's not a problem if it actually > fails somehow, even the nastiest way. Cool, sounds good ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: supporting more than ttyS* ` Samuel Thibault ` Okash Khawaja @ ` Tom Fowle ` Samuel Thibault 1 sibling, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Tom Fowle @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Since many parallel ports are not bidirectional, it might be hard or impossible to support indexing on a parallel port. I'm pretty sure the LiteTalk synth, a doubletalk LT with parallel port, does not support indexing on the parallel port for that reason. There is no means of returning data on a "printer" port. Tom Fowle WA6IVG On Sat, Jun 03, 2017 at 02:32:41PM +0200, Samuel Thibault wrote: > Gregory Nowak, on ven. 02 juin 2017 17:44:51 -0700, wrote: > > On Fri, Jun 02, 2017 at 07:56:57PM -0400, Samuel Thibault wrote: > > > Uh. Well, probably, actually. It's a matter of writing the driver, i.e. > > > having a documentation of the protocol and somebody to do the tests, or > > > better, lend the hardware for testing. > > > > We already have the driver, for serial anyway. The blazer uses the bns > > driver. > > Ah, cool :) > > > It sounds from what you said like it wouldn't be straight > > forward to open the parallel port instead of the serial port, and just > > start writing to it. > > Yes, since /dev/lp* provide a tty interface, so the tty codebase should > be able to use them. That actually shows that serdev is not enough for > all our uses, so we'll really want to use the tty interface. > > > I thought actually that using the parallel port > > is more straight forward, since there are no parameters like baudrate, > > stopbits, parity, and handshaking to set. Am I totally off here? > > From a tty perspective, it's just the same :) > But yes, there are a lot less questions with a parallel port. > > Samuel > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@linux-speakup.org > http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: supporting more than ttyS* ` Tom Fowle @ ` Samuel Thibault ` Gregory Nowak 0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Samuel Thibault @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. Tom Fowle, on sam. 03 juin 2017 23:22:41 -0700, wrote: > Since many parallel ports are not bidirectional, it might be hard or > impossible to support indexing on a parallel port. Yes. Samuel ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: supporting more than ttyS* ` Samuel Thibault @ ` Gregory Nowak ` Okash Khawaja 0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Gregory Nowak @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup On Sun, Jun 04, 2017 at 10:37:17AM +0200, Samuel Thibault wrote: > Tom Fowle, on sam. 03 juin 2017 23:22:41 -0700, wrote: > > Since many parallel ports are not bidirectional, it might be hard or > > impossible to support indexing on a parallel port. > > Yes. That did occur to me as well. The blazer manual doesn't mention anywhere that a ieee1284 cable is required. I have in fact used it under a windows screen reader using a standard non-bidirectional cable without issues. If a synthesizer supports indexing, would speakup enable it when using a serial port, and disable it when using a parallel port, or a different approach? Greg -- web site: http://www.gregn.net gpg public key: http://www.gregn.net/pubkey.asc skype: gregn1 (authorization required, add me to your contacts list first) If we haven't been in touch before, e-mail me before adding me to your contacts. -- Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: supporting more than ttyS* ` Gregory Nowak @ ` Okash Khawaja ` Okash Khawaja 0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Okash Khawaja @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.; +Cc: speakup > On 4 Jun 2017, at 23:47, Gregory Nowak <greg@gregn.net> wrote: > >> On Sun, Jun 04, 2017 at 10:37:17AM +0200, Samuel Thibault wrote: >> Tom Fowle, on sam. 03 juin 2017 23:22:41 -0700, wrote: >>> Since many parallel ports are not bidirectional, it might be hard or >>> impossible to support indexing on a parallel port. >> >> Yes. > > That did occur to me as well. The blazer manual doesn't mention > anywhere that a ieee1284 cable is required. I have in fact used it > under a windows screen reader using a standard non-bidirectional cable > without issues. If a synthesizer supports indexing, would speakup > enable it when using a serial port, and disable it when using a > parallel port, Yes, that should be possible. Haven't looked at code but can't see why we can't disable it on parallel port. On a general note, I don't know much about parallel port programming yet, so there still might be issues unaddressed in the first pass. Of course we can come back to them in subsequent patches. Thanks, Okash ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: supporting more than ttyS* ` Okash Khawaja @ ` Okash Khawaja ` Samuel Thibault ` Gregory Nowak 0 siblings, 2 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Okash Khawaja @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. Cc: Gregory Nowak, Samuel Thibault On Mon, Jun 05, 2017 at 06:11:13AM +0100, Okash Khawaja wrote: > > > > On 4 Jun 2017, at 23:47, Gregory Nowak <greg@gregn.net> wrote: > > > >> On Sun, Jun 04, 2017 at 10:37:17AM +0200, Samuel Thibault wrote: > >> Tom Fowle, on sam. 03 juin 2017 23:22:41 -0700, wrote: > >>> Since many parallel ports are not bidirectional, it might be hard or > >>> impossible to support indexing on a parallel port. > >> > >> Yes. > > > > That did occur to me as well. The blazer manual doesn't mention > > anywhere that a ieee1284 cable is required. I have in fact used it > > under a windows screen reader using a standard non-bidirectional cable > > without issues. If a synthesizer supports indexing, would speakup > > enable it when using a serial port, and disable it when using a > > parallel port, > Yes, that should be possible. Haven't looked at code but can't see why we can't disable it on parallel port. > > On a general note, I don't know much about parallel port programming yet, so there still might be issues unaddressed in the first pass. Of course we can come back to them in subsequent patches. Indexing on /dev/lp* can be disabled by returning 0 from synth_supports_indexing function in synth.c, whenever the device is lp*. However, there are other places where input is also used. Ideally we would disable all such functionality for lp*. Some synths also toggle serial control lines which I am not sure will be possible or supported by default in lp. Will have to look into this. So I suggest, for the first pass we limit lp support to bns, acntsa, dummy and txprt. Then we expand it to other synths based on their functionality, e.g. on ltlk we disable indexing and interrogating to print ROM version. Let me know if that's okay. Thanks, Okash ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: supporting more than ttyS* ` Okash Khawaja @ ` Samuel Thibault ` Tom Fowle ` Gregory Nowak 1 sibling, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Samuel Thibault @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Okash Khawaja; +Cc: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux., Gregory Nowak Okash Khawaja, on mer. 07 juin 2017 14:40:12 +0100, wrote: > Some synths also toggle serial control lines which I am not sure will > be possible or supported by default in lp. Well, the serial control lines don't make any sense for a parallel port. But there might be some parallel ports lines used for the same kind of signalling, manuals of these syntheses should be checked. > So I suggest, for the first pass we limit lp support to bns, acntsa, > dummy and txprt. Then we expand it to other synths based on their > functionality, e.g. on ltlk we disable indexing and interrogating to > print ROM version. Sounds good. Samuel ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: supporting more than ttyS* ` Samuel Thibault @ ` Tom Fowle ` Samuel Thibault 0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Tom Fowle @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup On Wed, Jun 07, 2017 at 03:58:34PM +0200, Samuel Thibault wrote: > Okash Khawaja, on mer. 07 juin 2017 14:40:12 +0100, wrote: > > Some synths also toggle serial control lines which I am not sure will > > be possible or supported by default in lp. > > Well, the serial control lines don't make any sense for a parallel port. > But there might be some parallel ports lines used for the same kind of > signalling, manuals of these syntheses should be checked. > > > So I suggest, for the first pass we limit lp support to bns, acntsa, > > dummy and txprt. Then we expand it to other synths based on their > > functionality, e.g. on ltlk we disable indexing and interrogating to > > print ROM version. > > Sounds good. > > Samuel There are at least two control lines on a basic printer parallel port, an output that is put high when the data lines have been setup, and I thiink taken low again after a defined time. There is an input, from the external device, that goes high when the device is busy and low again when it's ready to receive a new character. Sorry I've forgotten the names of these, but that's the basics. Of course there are bidirectional parallele ports, but they get rather complex as pins must change function as direction changes. I'd be surprised if synths used bidirectional ports as way back they weren't common and everybody'd have to test for them. Tom Fowle > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup@linux-speakup.org > http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: supporting more than ttyS* ` Tom Fowle @ ` Samuel Thibault 0 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Samuel Thibault @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. Tom Fowle, on mer. 07 juin 2017 18:22:56 -0700, wrote: > There are at least two control lines on a basic printer parallel port, I know these, I played with them when I was a child :) What I was wondering was whether the synths are actually making use of them. Samuel ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: supporting more than ttyS* ` Okash Khawaja ` Samuel Thibault @ ` Gregory Nowak ` Chris Brannon 1 sibling, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Gregory Nowak @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Okash Khawaja; +Cc: samuel.thibault, speakup On Wed, Jun 07, 2017 at 02:40:12PM +0100, Okash Khawaja wrote: > Some synths also toggle > serial control lines which I am not sure will be possible or supported > by default in lp. Will have to look into this. I haven't tried using the blazer over parallel for a few years, so tried it again a couple of days ago with a windows screen reader. There is no hand shaking of any sort over parallel as far as I can tell. Once the parallel port is selected as the output port in the screen reader I'm working with, other serial options, including hand shaking are disabled. As far as using the blazer over parallel, it seems to be just dump and wait. Once the screen reader starts sending speech to the blazer, there is no way to interrupt until the speech is done. This does include indexing of course as well. Looking at the parallel communication between the blazer and the screen reader, I see no attempt by the screen reader to read the parallel port in any way. All it does is just write data one way. I will check the blazer manual to see if it has anything to say about using the parallel port with a screen reader, other than stating this is possible. Using the blazer over parallel is never my first choice. However, it's better than nothing if a serial port or a usb to serial converter aren't available, and it's either parallel or nothing. Greg -- web site: http://www.gregn.net gpg public key: http://www.gregn.net/pubkey.asc skype: gregn1 (authorization required, add me to your contacts list first) If we haven't been in touch before, e-mail me before adding me to your contacts. -- Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: supporting more than ttyS* ` Gregory Nowak @ ` Chris Brannon ` Gregory Nowak 0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Chris Brannon @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Gregory Nowak <greg@gregn.net> writes: > I will check the blazer manual to > see if it has anything to say about using the parallel port with a > screen reader, other than stating this is possible. I looked through the Braille Blazer manual. The only thing it really says is that if speech is enabled for the parallel port, then when a document is sent to the port, the Braille Blazer will speak it. I read that as "speak whatever is dumped as it comes". They probably didn't intend this to be used with screen readers; it was a nice feature that let you hear a document being read to you as it was being embossed. Though I really don't know how someone could understand the synth while the Braille Blazer was making all its clickity-clack racket. -- Chris ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: supporting more than ttyS* ` Chris Brannon @ ` Gregory Nowak 0 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Gregory Nowak @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. On Wed, Jun 07, 2017 at 10:10:22PM -0700, Chris Brannon wrote: > I looked through the Braille Blazer manual. The only thing it really > says is that if speech is enabled for the parallel port, then when a > document is sent to the port, the Braille Blazer will speak it. > I read that as "speak whatever is dumped as it comes". They probably > didn't intend this to be used with screen readers; it was a nice feature > that let you hear a document being read to you as it was being > embossed. Though I really don't know how someone could understand the > synth while the Braille Blazer was making all its clickity-clack racket. That's what I gathered when I looked through it last night. Since the service manual would deal with servicing the hardware, it's possible it also went into more detail on parallel port communication (E.G. if it handshakes in some way, and how). I'm not able to get my hands on that though, it sounds like it would be an interesting read. Greg -- web site: http://www.gregn.net gpg public key: http://www.gregn.net/pubkey.asc skype: gregn1 (authorization required, add me to your contacts list first) If we haven't been in touch before, e-mail me before adding me to your contacts. -- Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
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supporting more than ttyS* Okash Khawaja
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` Samuel Thibault
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