heretical thoughts was Re: Speakup dropped from Ubuntu

heretical thoughts was Re: Speakup dropped from Ubuntu

[C.M. Brannon]

Hi folks,
I had a couple of observations that may not sit well with most of you ...

Hardware synthesis is becoming obsolete.  Why?  More and more systems,
especially laptops, are being manufactured without RS232 ports.  When
I buy my next laptop, I won't let the presence of RS232 be a
determining factor.  The vendors of USB synths won't release their
product information, so these are unsupported.  Thus, I'm not buying
one.  Who wants to do business with people like that anyhow?  So it
looks like software speech is the way of the future, at least for me.
Next, software speech is more convenient, especially when using a
laptop.  You have to carry one less peripheral with you.

The question to ask is this.  Given the decline of hardware synthesis,
is it really necessary to have speech support within the kernel
itself?  Software synthesizers run in user mode, so the benefits of a
speech-enabled kernel -- notably a talking boot process -- are lost.

Comments are welcome.

PS. I'm not a GUI user, so I'm arguing from a console / command-line
perspective.

-- Chris

Re: heretical thoughts was Re: Speakup dropped from Ubuntu

[Henrik Nilsen Omma]

I'm not qualified to comment on the technical merits of a kernel vs. a 
user-space solution, but I know that from a maintenance point of view we 
would prefer it.

More importantly, this is the kind of forward thinking I would like to 
see more of in the access community. Over the next couple of years we 
will increasingly move over to ultra-mobile technologies. These will 
require lean kernels but there is scope for many options in user-space. 
Ubuntu is working actively with Intel on these new platform to make sure 
accessibility is a consideration from the very start. Hopefully we can 
avoid the long accessibility gap we had with mobile phones.

Henrik

C.M. Brannon wrote:
> Hi folks,
> I had a couple of observations that may not sit well with most of you ...
>
> Hardware synthesis is becoming obsolete.  Why?  More and more systems,
> especially laptops, are being manufactured without RS232 ports.  When
> I buy my next laptop, I won't let the presence of RS232 be a
> determining factor.  The vendors of USB synths won't release their
> product information, so these are unsupported.  Thus, I'm not buying
> one.  Who wants to do business with people like that anyhow?  So it
> looks like software speech is the way of the future, at least for me.
> Next, software speech is more convenient, especially when using a
> laptop.  You have to carry one less peripheral with you.
>
> The question to ask is this.  Given the decline of hardware synthesis,
> is it really necessary to have speech support within the kernel
> itself?  Software synthesizers run in user mode, so the benefits of a
> speech-enabled kernel -- notably a talking boot process -- are lost.
>
> Comments are welcome.
>
> PS. I'm not a GUI user, so I'm arguing from a console / command-line
> perspective.
>
> -- Chris
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>   

Re: heretical thoughts was Re: Speakup dropped from Ubuntu

[Gene Collins]

>I'm not qualified to comment on the technical merits of a kernel vs. a 
>user-space solution, but I know that from a maintenance point of view we 
>would prefer it.
>
Well, you haven't told us how Speakup adds to your mainttenance
problems.  I mean  the only thing extra you are doing is running a
checkout script, in order to patch speakup into the kernel.  After that,
you are just doing a make oldconfig with the .config file from your most
recent kernel.  What you have to understand about accessibility is that
it often requires a set of tools to do a job, not necessarily just one.

The problem with having only software synthesis on the system is that
when there is a problem, the software synthesis is often the first
thing to stop functioning.  It's like having the monitor become suddenly
unavailable for a sighted person, just when they need it the most.  If
we gave sighted folks a video driver which was the first thing to stop
functioning when the system had a problem, you'd hear howls of outrage. 
But when blind folks ask for a solution like speakup and a hardware
synthesizer which will function even during a kernel panic sometimes,
sighted folks seem to have real trouble understanding the need for
reliable access.

I don't recall seeing any requests here from Ubuntu folks for help with
maintenance issues for Speakup.  It appears to me that what we have here
is a group of sighted folks who don't use the technology making
decissions about what blind folks need or don't need, want or don't
want.  In my view, that's inappropriate.

If Speakup is dropped from Ubuntu, then I may just have to go back to
using Debian.  I can deal with the lack of a gui interface, because most
things I need to do, I can do from a text console.  I can't deal with a
gui only interface which only has parts of itself accessible, and that
sometimes at the whim of a developer.  No, you can't get in to my tool
box and try to tell me I don't need the 1 quarter inch socket set.  When
it's necessary, it's necessary.

I make my living as a computer consultant.  It will be to bad if I'm
forced to recomend that folks stay clear of Ubuntu because of it's lack
of support for text console accessibility, but if that's the choice I'm
force to, then that's what I'll do.  I hope the folks managing Ubuntu
will reconsider their decission, but if not, all I can do is steer clear
of distros that insist on causing me grieff.

Gene Collins

Re: heretical thoughts was Re: Speakup dropped from Ubuntu

[Henrik Nilsen Omma]

Gene Collins wrote:
>> I'm not qualified to comment on the technical merits of a kernel vs. a 
>> user-space solution, but I know that from a maintenance point of view we 
>> would prefer it.
>>
>>     
> Well, you haven't told us how Speakup adds to your mainttenance
> problems.  I mean  the only thing extra you are doing is running a
> checkout script, in order to patch speakup into the kernel.  After that,
> you are just doing a make oldconfig with the .config file from your most
> recent kernel.  
The kernel is a complex beast. Anything you put into it can have 
unpredictable consequences on the whole. We ship the distro to millions 
of users every 6 months. Those versions all need to be maintained with 
updates for 18 months, and with LTS for 5 years. Any extra non-standard 
kernel code becomes a maintenance burden. If you have to merge in a 
security patch from kernel.org it helps if your kernel is as close as 
possible to what kernel.org was when you released. Obscure patches with 
light testing that you have applied earlier on will become a burden.


> The problem with having only software synthesis on the system is that
> when there is a problem, the software synthesis is often the first
> thing to stop functioning.  
Again, that's a bug and a community like this one would do well to help 
find and resolve those. That would help a much larger, less technical 
group in the long term. That is also my main focus. I had hoped this 
highly skilled community would help me with that.


> But when blind folks ask for a solution like speakup and a hardware
> synthesizer which will function even during a kernel panic sometimes,
> sighted folks seem to have real trouble understanding the need for
> reliable access.
>   
That is completely false. The way that speakup made its way into ubuntu 
originally was that a visually impaired member of our community 
suggested it for inclusion. He drew up a proper specification for it 
which we discussed at the Ubuntu Development Summit in Paris. We held a 
workshop session about speakup where I and our kernel team was present. 
There was no lack of understanding for the importance of accessibility 
anywhere in this process. (we regularly invite users and developers with 
visual impairment to our dev summits, in November we have a a whole 
mini-conference about this).

We agreed that we would include speakup in our default kernel for Edgy, 
but the maintainer expressed concerns about future maintainability 
already at that point. We agreed that we would engage with the speakup 
community and offer help with getting it into mainline. I did that, but 
nothing much came of it. For gutsy we have changed our policy to 
actively reduce the number of non-mainline patches. Speakup is clearly 
not on track for inclusion at this point and so falls under that policy.

> I don't recall seeing any requests here from Ubuntu folks for help with
> maintenance issues for Speakup.  
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/pipermail/speakup/2006-October/040394.html
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/pipermail/speakup/2006-October/040435.html
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/pipermail/speakup/2006-October/040639.html
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/pipermail/speakup/2006-November/040979.html
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/pipermail/speakup/2006-November/041049.html

Lots of debate. Little or no direct involvement from the speakup 
community in ubuntu to help improve our support for it or help maintain 
or move it forward.

> It appears to me that what we have here
> is a group of sighted folks who don't use the technology making
> decissions about what blind folks need or don't need, want or don't
> want.  In my view, that's inappropriate.
>   

You are not doing yourself any favours by making this into a blind vs. 
sighted issue. The blind/vi Linux community is quite numerous and could 
have a massive impact on progress in general accessibility on the 
platform and could help other weaker groups in the process. But to do 
that you have to get organised into a community structure and engage 
constructively with other parts of the free software community. That's 
how things get done in the free software world.

This list seems to be doing a god job at providing peer-help using the 
existing tools, but I see little innovation and reaching out to other 
projects going on. I don't see a roadmap or advocacy campaigns for example.

> I make my living as a computer consultant.  It will be to bad if I'm
> forced to recomend that folks stay clear of Ubuntu because of it's lack
> of support for text console accessibility, but if that's the choice I'm
> force to, then that's what I'll do.  I hope the folks managing Ubuntu
> will reconsider their decission, but if not, all I can do is steer clear
> of distros that insist on causing me grieff.

This is what I mean by 'not engaging constructively with the wider 
community'.

Henrik

Re: heretical thoughts was Re: Speakup dropped from Ubuntu

[Albert E. Sten-Clanton]

> > The problem with having only software synthesis on the system is that
> > when there is a problem, the software synthesis is often the first
> > thing to stop functioning.
> Again, that's a bug and a community like this one would do well to help
> find and resolve those. That would help a much larger, less technical
> group in the long term.

Do I misunderstand, or do you mean that it should be technically feasible to have software speech kick in as early in the boot process as speakup can with
a hardware speech device, as well as at other times when it now may become unusable?  My very limited understanding of the technology tells me that's unlikely,
but I'd be glad to be wrong.  If that can't happen, though, then Gene's key complaint, as I read it, stands: software speech is second-rate access, if
that's all there is.

> > I make my living as a computer consultant.  It will be to bad if I'm
> > forced to recomend that folks stay clear of Ubuntu because of it's lack
> > of support for text console accessibility, but if that's the choice I'm
> > force to, then that's what I'll do.  I hope the folks managing Ubuntu
> > will reconsider their decission, but if not, all I can do is steer clear
> > of distros that insist on causing me grieff.
>
> This is what I mean by 'not engaging constructively with the wider
> community'.
>

Actually, I think Gene is indeed constructive here.  He pointed out that if your product doesn't meet the needs he sees he'll use another.  That's rightly
part of the freedom we claim.  At the very least, it's no less constructive a comment or choice than the decision to remove speakup is.

My own purpose here is not to bash ubuntu.  As I see it, the worst problem is the failure to include speakup in the vanilla kernel.  Then, the developers
of neither ubuntu nor any other distro would have to worry about "unpredictable" results of including something "non-standard."  I know there was correspondence
on this list in which it was said that the speakup code didn't meet the relevant standards.  (Indeed, there were specific suggestions on revising it.)
I also know that the grml kernel document I read says that grml uses a vanilla kernel with some patches, and I know speakup is included in those patches.
 (I use it right now largely for that reason.) It seems to me that if the grml folks can include it, then we should probably regard as suspect any "standard"
that keeps it out of the vanilla kernel.  I'm willing to be corrected, but even realizing how little I know, I doubt that my inference is unreasonable.

Al

Re: heretical thoughts was Re: Speakup dropped from Ubuntu

[Gregory Nowak]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Tue, May 15, 2007 at 01:24:45PM -0500, C.M. Brannon wrote:
> The vendors of USB synths won't release their
> product information, so these are unsupported.  Thus, I'm not buying
> one.  Who wants to do business with people like that anyhow? 

I'm in full agreement with you there. I will personally not buy a usb
synth, until I know that the manufacturer has released the specs for
it without requiring an NDA to be signed.

> So it
> looks like software speech is the way of the future, at least for me.
> Next, software speech is more convenient, especially when using a
> laptop.  You have to carry one less peripheral with you.
> 
> The question to ask is this.  Given the decline of hardware synthesis,
> is it really necessary to have speech support within the kernel
> itself?  Software synthesizers run in user mode, so the benefits of a
> speech-enabled kernel -- notably a talking boot process -- are lost.
> 

I agree there with you also. Granted, once you have an installed
distro, hardware speech isn't that vital. However, installation is
still a big issue in that department. Yes, gentoo, fedora, can be
installed over ssh. Grml, ubuntu can be installed with software
speech. However, what if someone wants to install and use a distro
like debian or slackware, that support neither option as far as I
know? Yes, I suppose that one could use the grml livecd to install
debian via debootstrap, however that procedure isn't for everyone,
especially for a newby. So, the fact remains that until it is possible
to install most distros either over the network or via software
speech, hardware speech is still necessary.

As for kernel-based screen readers not being usable during boot with
software speech, the same is true for user space-based screen readers,
such as jupiter for example, that would be using either hardware or
software speech. So, arguably, kernel-based screen readers still very
much have their own advantages, assuming one has access to a hardware
synth of course, though I admit that advantage will become less, and
less important as everyone moves to software speech eventually.

Greg

- -- 
web site: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org
gpg public key: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org/pubkey.asc
skype: gregn1
(authorization required, add me to your contacts list first)

- --
Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFGSgS27s9z/XlyUyARAigUAJsFghMQVZBSn/ZH04/mNo6s0kObcwCgrsh3
kiOXHOo0GjAUmAP5vuQN6vU=
=yNvy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: heretical thoughts was Re: Speakup dropped from Ubuntu

[C.M. Brannon]

Gregory Nowak <greg@romuald.net.eu.org> writes:

> I'm in full agreement with you there. I will personally not buy a usb
> synth, until I know that the manufacturer has released the specs for
> it without requiring an NDA to be signed.

This isn't going to happen.  IIRC, the Tripple Talk USB came out 5 or
6 years ago.

> Yes, gentoo, fedora, can be
> installed over ssh. Grml, ubuntu can be installed with software
> speech. However, what if someone wants to install and use a distro
> like debian or slackware, that support neither option as far as I
> know?

If you have a laptop made in the last couple of years, you won't be
able to do a talking install of Slackware, Debian, etc.
This trend will become more pronounced; it's only a matter of time
before hardware speech is nonviable.
So we need to start thinking about long-term solutions.
-- Chris

Re: heretical thoughts was Re: Speakup dropped from Ubuntu

[Albert E. Sten-Clanton]

If you're right about the trend, then once again we will have second-rate access, as we do with Windblows.  I'll keep hardware speech around as long as I can.

Al
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "C.M. Brannon" <cmbrannon@cox.net>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 4:01 PM
Subject: Re: heretical thoughts was Re: Speakup dropped from Ubuntu


> Gregory Nowak <greg@romuald.net.eu.org> writes:
> 
> > I'm in full agreement with you there. I will personally not buy a usb
> > synth, until I know that the manufacturer has released the specs for
> > it without requiring an NDA to be signed.
> 
> This isn't going to happen.  IIRC, the Tripple Talk USB came out 5 or
> 6 years ago.
> 
> > Yes, gentoo, fedora, can be
> > installed over ssh. Grml, ubuntu can be installed with software
> > speech. However, what if someone wants to install and use a distro
> > like debian or slackware, that support neither option as far as I
> > know?
> 
> If you have a laptop made in the last couple of years, you won't be
> able to do a talking install of Slackware, Debian, etc.
> This trend will become more pronounced; it's only a matter of time
> before hardware speech is nonviable.
> So we need to start thinking about long-term solutions.
> -- Chris
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
> Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.1/805 - Release Date: 5/15/2007 10:47 AM
> 
>

Re: heretical thoughts was Re: Speakup dropped from Ubuntu

[Brent Harding]

Well, what about that gear that is probably in service all around that uses 
serial ports for administration? I was thinking of going back to school for 
a networking-related career, and from what I gather, RS232 could be the most 
important thing I could theoretically want on a laptop.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "C.M. Brannon" <cmbrannon@cox.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 1:24 PM
Subject: heretical thoughts was Re: Speakup dropped from Ubuntu


> Hi folks,
> I had a couple of observations that may not sit well with most of you ...
>
> Hardware synthesis is becoming obsolete.  Why?  More and more systems,
> especially laptops, are being manufactured without RS232 ports.  When
> I buy my next laptop, I won't let the presence of RS232 be a
> determining factor.  The vendors of USB synths won't release their
> product information, so these are unsupported.  Thus, I'm not buying
> one.  Who wants to do business with people like that anyhow?  So it
> looks like software speech is the way of the future, at least for me.
> Next, software speech is more convenient, especially when using a
> laptop.  You have to carry one less peripheral with you.
>
> The question to ask is this.  Given the decline of hardware synthesis,
> is it really necessary to have speech support within the kernel
> itself?  Software synthesizers run in user mode, so the benefits of a
> speech-enabled kernel -- notably a talking boot process -- are lost.
>
> Comments are welcome.
>
> PS. I'm not a GUI user, so I'm arguing from a console / command-line
> perspective.
>
> -- Chris
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: heretical thoughts was Re: Speakup dropped from Ubuntu

[Christopher Moore]

Guys,
You can use a usb to serial adapter if you have a hardware synth.  I 
think the brltty model of user-space access is a good one to look at.  
Perhaps it could be used as the basis for a redesigned speakup.  A 
numeric usb keypad might serve to control the screen reading functions.  

Chris

Re: heretical thoughts was Re: Speakup dropped from Ubuntu

[Henrik Nilsen Omma]

Christopher Moore wrote:
> Guys,
> You can use a usb to serial adapter if you have a hardware synth.  I 
> think the brltty model of user-space access is a good one to look at.  
> Perhaps it could be used as the basis for a redesigned speakup.  A 
> numeric usb keypad might serve to control the screen reading functions.  
>   
I would suggest looking at Orca's laptop layout. Might as well 
standardise on that.

Henrik

Re: heretical thoughts was Re: Speakup dropped from Ubuntu

[Gregory Nowak]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Well then, that's what usb to rs232 converters are for.

Greg


On Tue, May 15, 2007 at 03:39:24PM -0500, Brent Harding wrote:
> Well, what about that gear that is probably in service all around that uses 
> serial ports for administration? I was thinking of going back to school for 
> a networking-related career, and from what I gather, RS232 could be the most 
> important thing I could theoretically want on a laptop.
> 

- -- 
web site: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org
gpg public key: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org/pubkey.asc
skype: gregn1
(authorization required, add me to your contacts list first)

- --
Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)

iD4DBQFGSi8W7s9z/XlyUyARAg6RAJdLbvSXc8qHPbtSQ08qbxFLpiyxAJ97wnIA
cYRaesxMMeO7xp1c3iU+QQ==
=5/12
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: heretical thoughts was Re: Speakup dropped from Ubuntu

[Alex Snow]

the solution to that is usb->serial converters.  I'm going to school 
for IT, and hope to get a job in networking at some point soon, so 
made sure the laptop I got had a serial port.  While this wasn't the 
only deciding factor, it was pretty high on the list.  I was willing 
to sacrafice some of the 8 or 16 serial ports on certain laptops (why 
would someone want that many USB on a laptop anyway)? for a serial 
port.
On Tue, May 15, 2007 at 03:39:24PM -0500, Brent Harding wrote:
> Well, what about that gear that is probably in service all around that uses 
> serial ports for administration? I was thinking of going back to school for 
> a networking-related career, and from what I gather, RS232 could be the most 
> important thing I could theoretically want on a laptop.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "C.M. Brannon" <cmbrannon@cox.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 1:24 PM
> Subject: heretical thoughts was Re: Speakup dropped from Ubuntu
> 
> 
> > Hi folks,
> > I had a couple of observations that may not sit well with most of you ...
> >
> > Hardware synthesis is becoming obsolete.  Why?  More and more systems,
> > especially laptops, are being manufactured without RS232 ports.  When
> > I buy my next laptop, I won't let the presence of RS232 be a
> > determining factor.  The vendors of USB synths won't release their
> > product information, so these are unsupported.  Thus, I'm not buying
> > one.  Who wants to do business with people like that anyhow?  So it
> > looks like software speech is the way of the future, at least for me.
> > Next, software speech is more convenient, especially when using a
> > laptop.  You have to carry one less peripheral with you.
> >
> > The question to ask is this.  Given the decline of hardware synthesis,
> > is it really necessary to have speech support within the kernel
> > itself?  Software synthesizers run in user mode, so the benefits of a
> > speech-enabled kernel -- notably a talking boot process -- are lost.
> >
> > Comments are welcome.
> >
> > PS. I'm not a GUI user, so I'm arguing from a console / command-line
> > perspective.
> >
> > -- Chris
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
How do I type "for i in *.dvi do xdvi $i done" in a GUI?
	-- Discussion in comp.os.linux.misc on the intuitiveness of interfaces

RE: heretical thoughts was Re: Speakup dropped from Ubuntu

[Anthony Creapeau]

What do you need a serial port for? I have a networking degree focusing on
Cisco devices and if there isn't a serial port you simply access it by USB
via a USB to serial adapter. Serial ports have been becoming more and more
extinct.

-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of Alex Snow
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 8:41 PM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: heretical thoughts was Re: Speakup dropped from Ubuntu

the solution to that is usb->serial converters.  I'm going to school for IT,
and hope to get a job in networking at some point soon, so made sure the
laptop I got had a serial port.  While this wasn't the only deciding factor,
it was pretty high on the list.  I was willing to sacrafice some of the 8 or
16 serial ports on certain laptops (why would someone want that many USB on
a laptop anyway)? for a serial port.
On Tue, May 15, 2007 at 03:39:24PM -0500, Brent Harding wrote:
> Well, what about that gear that is probably in service all around that 
> uses serial ports for administration? I was thinking of going back to 
> school for a networking-related career, and from what I gather, RS232 
> could be the most important thing I could theoretically want on a laptop.
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "C.M. Brannon" <cmbrannon@cox.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 1:24 PM
> Subject: heretical thoughts was Re: Speakup dropped from Ubuntu
> 
> 
> > Hi folks,
> > I had a couple of observations that may not sit well with most of you
...
> >
> > Hardware synthesis is becoming obsolete.  Why?  More and more 
> > systems, especially laptops, are being manufactured without RS232 
> > ports.  When I buy my next laptop, I won't let the presence of RS232 
> > be a determining factor.  The vendors of USB synths won't release 
> > their product information, so these are unsupported.  Thus, I'm not 
> > buying one.  Who wants to do business with people like that anyhow?  
> > So it looks like software speech is the way of the future, at least for
me.
> > Next, software speech is more convenient, especially when using a 
> > laptop.  You have to carry one less peripheral with you.
> >
> > The question to ask is this.  Given the decline of hardware 
> > synthesis, is it really necessary to have speech support within the 
> > kernel itself?  Software synthesizers run in user mode, so the 
> > benefits of a speech-enabled kernel -- notably a talking boot process --
are lost.
> >
> > Comments are welcome.
> >
> > PS. I'm not a GUI user, so I'm arguing from a console / command-line 
> > perspective.
> >
> > -- Chris
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

--
How do I type "for i in *.dvi do xdvi $i done" in a GUI?
	-- Discussion in comp.os.linux.misc on the intuitiveness of
interfaces

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: heretical thoughts was Re: Speakup dropped from Ubuntu

[Steve Holmes]

The big problem here presently is Speakup is locked to the hardware
based addresses for a standard internal serial port.  It has been my
understanding that these USB to serial port converters won't work with
Speakup in its present form.  Until that gets corrected, the software
speech argument stands.

Also, I thought new computers so often come without serial ports that
some day, you wouln't be able to even find one.

On Tue, May 15, 2007 at 08:56:22PM -0500, Anthony Creapeau wrote:
> What do you need a serial port for? I have a networking degree focusing on
> Cisco devices and if there isn't a serial port you simply access it by USB
> via a USB to serial adapter. Serial ports have been becoming more and more
> extinct.

-- 
HolmesGrown Solutions
The best solutions for the best price!
http://holmesgrown.ld.net/

Re: heretical thoughts was Re: Speakup dropped from Ubuntu

[Gregory Nowak]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

No, speakup won't work through a converter, but just about anything
else, especially user space programs will work through a converter
just fine.

Greg


On Fri, May 18, 2007 at 06:57:07AM -0700, Steve Holmes wrote:
> The big problem here presently is Speakup is locked to the hardware
> based addresses for a standard internal serial port.  It has been my
> understanding that these USB to serial port converters won't work with
> Speakup in its present form.  Until that gets corrected, the software
> speech argument stands.
> 
> Also, I thought new computers so often come without serial ports that
> some day, you wouln't be able to even find one.
> 

- -- 
web site: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org
gpg public key: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org/pubkey.asc
skype: gregn1
(authorization required, add me to your contacts list first)

- --
Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFGTewt7s9z/XlyUyARAn5uAJ4gATFw9ha2ih0ecV7S2HU+lvB7LQCdHus3
VjKopWSkFBy0KMVWHGiDI0A=
=xT+E
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: heretical thoughts was Re: Speakup dropped from Ubuntu

[Adam Myrow]

On Fri, 18 May 2007, Gregory Nowak wrote:

> No, speakup won't work through a converter, but just about anything
> else, especially user space programs will work through a converter
> just fine.

My experience with a USA19X USB to serial converter argues otherwise.  I 
hooked a Power Braille 80 to one, and configured Brltty to use it.  Things 
were always very unstable.  Brltty would routinely lose communications 
with the Braille display, and thus, it would go dead for several seconds 
at a time, then come back resulting in error messages on the console. 
This was especially bad when there was a lot of data being sent to the 
display.  So, I now have the Braille display on a PCI serial card, the 
Dectalk USB in serial mode on the one internal serial port, and my UPS on 
the USB-to-serial converter.  This works quite well for me since the UPS 
sends no data, just changes one line when the power goes out, and another 
when the battery is about to die.

Re: heretical thoughts was Re: Speakup dropped from Ubuntu

[Samuel Thibault]

Hi,

Steve Holmes, le Fri 18 May 2007 06:57:07 -0700, a écrit :
> The big problem here presently is Speakup is locked to the hardware
> based addresses for a standard internal serial port.  It has been my
> understanding that these USB to serial port converters won't work with
> Speakup in its present form.  Until that gets corrected, the software
> speech argument stands.

This is the kind of things I'd like to fix, now that Kirk kindly gave me
access to the repository.

Samuel