package installation problem

package installation problem

[Charles Hallenbeck]

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Can someone please advise me what to do? I have been living happily with 
the Debian unstable distro for some time, but got bitten recently. The 
package "manpages-dev" was being upgraded along with a bunch of other 
stuff, and it failed with an error. I tried a number of things, 
including doing a remove and purge and a new install of the package, and 
it still failed with the same error. I will include a snapshot of it 
below. It seems that it wants to copy over a file that is included with 
modutils, and that is a no no. But now I have lost the earlier set of 
manpages, which includes most of the development stuff, system calls 
from GCC, and the like. I am sort of out of ideas on this one, and 
really miss those man pages. Here is the snapshot:

hq:~# apt-get install manpages-dev

<snip>

The following NEW packages will be installed:
  manpages-dev
0 upgraded, 1 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 0B/1158kB of archives.
After unpacking 2875kB of additional disk space will be used.




Reading package fields... 0%
                            
Reading package fields... Done

                              
Reading package status... 0%
                            
Reading package status... 0%
                            
Reading package status... Done

                              
Retrieving bug reports... 0% [0/1]
                                  
Retrieving bug reports... 0% [0/1]
                                  
Retrieving bug reports... Done
(Reading database ... 42416 files and directories currently installed.)
Unpacking manpages-dev (from .../manpages-dev_2.25-2_all.deb) ...
dpkg: error processing /var/cache/apt/archives/manpages-dev_2.25-2_all.deb (--unpack):
 trying to overwrite `/usr/share/man/man2/create_module.2.gz', which is also in package modutils
dpkg-deb: subprocess paste killed by signal (Broken pipe)
Errors were encountered while processing:
 /var/cache/apt/archives/manpages-dev_2.25-2_all.deb
E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)
hq:~# 



Thanks.
Chuck

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Re: package installation problem

[Gregory Nowak]

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Hash: SHA1

Have you tried:

apt-get -f install

? If that fails, then why not just rm
/usr/share/man/man2/create_module.2.gz, since it seems to exist in the
package you're trying to install anyway? If you didn't do that
because you're afraid of messing up the system, then mv it over to
somewhere else, so if the new package install bombs after all, you
just mv it back into place, and no harm is done.

BTW, I remember a while back you suggested that I consider switching
from testing to unstable. This, and other encounters I've had while
running unstable in the past is exactly why I've chosen to run testing
now.

Greg



On Mon, Apr 17, 2006 at 03:44:19PM -0400, Charles Hallenbeck wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Can someone please advise me what to do? I have been living happily with 
> the Debian unstable distro for some time, but got bitten recently. The 
> package "manpages-dev" was being upgraded along with a bunch of other 
> stuff, and it failed with an error. I tried a number of things, 
> including doing a remove and purge and a new install of the package, and 
> it still failed with the same error. I will include a snapshot of it 
> below. It seems that it wants to copy over a file that is included with 
> modutils, and that is a no no. But now I have lost the earlier set of 
> manpages, which includes most of the development stuff, system calls 
> from GCC, and the like. I am sort of out of ideas on this one, and 
> really miss those man pages. Here is the snapshot:
> 
> 
> Thanks.
> Chuck
> 
> - -- 
> The Moon is Waning Gibbous (83% of Full)
> Get downloads from http://www.mhcable.com/~chuckh
>   and remember, INFORMATION WANTS TO BE FREE!
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux)
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> 1Tc5lhrLohlkq+u00jvOfLw=
> =wLsp
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
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> Speakup mailing list
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Re: package installation problem

[Charles Hallenbeck]

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Yes, I tried the -f switch with no success. And after moving 
/usr/share/man/man2/create_module.2.gz to a safe place and verifying 
that it was gone, I get the same error message. Evidently it does not 
even bother to look to see if it is there, since somehow it knows that 
modutils also wants it to be there. I tried reinstalling modutils, dpkg, 
manpages-dev, nothing seems to get around this one, at least nothing I 
have been able to think of.

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Re: package installation problem

[Gregory Nowak]

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Hmmm, since the error it is giving you seems to be specific to modutils,
have you tried completely purging modutils, seeing if the package
giving the error installs, and then installing modutils once more?

Greg


On Mon, Apr 17, 2006 at 05:19:27PM -0400, Charles Hallenbeck wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Yes, I tried the -f switch with no success. And after moving 
> /usr/share/man/man2/create_module.2.gz to a safe place and verifying 
> that it was gone, I get the same error message. Evidently it does not 
> even bother to look to see if it is there, since somehow it knows that 
> modutils also wants it to be there. I tried reinstalling modutils, dpkg, 
> manpages-dev, nothing seems to get around this one, at least nothing I 
> have been able to think of.
> 
> - -- 
> The Moon is Waning Gibbous (83% of Full)
> Get downloads from http://www.mhcable.com/~chuckh
>   and remember, INFORMATION WANTS TO BE FREE!
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux)
> 
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> 5C/qL52ovKiv7t8BkiXAHEw=
> =EUFn
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> _______________________________________________
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Re: package installation problem

[Charles Hallenbeck]

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That scares me. Might have to try that though. I did try an apt-get 
install modutils using both the -f and the --reinstall options, with no 
results, but I did not try purging or removing it first. The man page 
says modules-init-tools replaces all or most of modutils, but when I 
look at the contents of those packages, there is a hell of a lot more to 
modutils than there is to modules-init-tools, so that makes me a little 
gun shy about just removing it.


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Re: package installation problem

[Thomas Stivers]

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On Mon, Apr 17, 2006 at 07:07:35 PM -0400, Charles Hallenbeck wrote:
> That scares me. Might have to try that though. I did try an apt-get 
> install modutils using both the -f and the --reinstall options, with no 
> results, but I did not try purging or removing it first. The man page 
> says modules-init-tools replaces all or most of modutils, but when I 
> look at the contents of those packages, there is a hell of a lot more to 
> modutils than there is to modules-init-tools, so that makes me a little 
> gun shy about just removing it.

You might need to hang on to modutils if you run pre-2.6 kernels, but I
just resolved the same problem by removing modutils and then confirmed
that I can still add and remove modules just fine. The big difference
between modutils and module-init-tools as far as I can tell (aside from
the latter working with the .ko extensions) is that modutils has a lot
more support for the automatic loading of modules which doesn't seem to
be working in a 2.6.x kernel.

The other alternative is just to wait until tomorrow and upgrade again.
The debian guys will most likely have it fixed by then. That's the
beauty of unstable, it may have bugs, but when found they sure get fixed
fast 90% of the time. Sometimes while I was running testing I had to
wait a couple weeks for bug fixes to propogate down through unstable.
There have been many attempts to come up with a better naming system for
the three debian distros which would be more user friendly, but all have
caused more confusion than they prevented.

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Thomas Stivers	e-mail: stivers_t@tomass.dyndns.org
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Re: package installation problem

[Charles Hallenbeck]

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On Tue, Apr 18, 2006 at 12:13:29PM -0500, Thomas Stivers wrote:
> 
> The other alternative is just to wait until tomorrow and upgrade again.
> The debian guys will most likely have it fixed by then. That's the
> beauty of unstable, it may have bugs, but when found they sure get fixed
> fast 90% of the time. Sometimes while I was running testing I had to
> wait a couple weeks for bug fixes to propogate down through unstable.

I agree about the speed of unstable getting fixed in general, but I had 
waited a week with this particular conflict not getting resolved, and 
began to think it was something unique to this system. But all is well, 
happy to say. I am running 2.6.16 here, so I guess that's it for 
modutils! 


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Re: package installation problem

[John Heim]

At 02:44 PM 4/17/2006, Charles Hallenbeck wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>Can someone please advise me what to do? I have been living happily with
>the Debian unstable distro for some time, but got bitten recently. The
>package "manpages-dev" was being upgraded along with a bunch of other
>stuff, and it failed with an error. I tried a number of things,
>including doing a remove and purge and a new install of the package, and
[...]


I  am not sure what modutils is but you may be able to purge and/or remove 
modutils, install  manpages-dev, and then re-install modutils. Modutils 
sounds like something important though and you may not be able to remove that.

PS: Somebody else mentioned that this is why they don't use the unstable 
version of debian... Well, I've had this come up recently with the stable 
version. Different packages but same problem.  X11-common wouldn't install 
because it wanted to create a file that was in XF86Free. Of course, I don't 
use X but zinf wanted it installed.

Re: package installation problem

[Charles Hallenbeck]

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Hash: SHA1

Hi John,

I am still enthusiastic about unstable, even after this problem. It 
turns out that modutils was pretty much replaced by another package, but 
was still installed, and when I got up enough courage to remove it and 
purge its files, everything cleared up nicely. Evidently I overlooked 
something in a changelog or somewhere that would have told me in advance 
to do that. But the advantages of keeping current with Sid far outweigh 
the occasional problems that might arise. This is the first problem I 
have had with unstable in -- let's see -- closer to a year than to six 
months now. One thing that helps is to install apt-listbugs and 
apt-listchanges, which warn you during the upgrade process about known 
problems. Of course you have to pay attention to those warnings, though. 
<smile>

Chuck

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Re: package installation problem

[Georgina Joyce]

Hi 

Glad it's sorted out now.  I did wonder because I'm using unstable but never encountered your problem.  I wondered if you run apt-get upgrade only or did you run apt-get dist-upgrade every now and again?


On Tue, Apr 18, 2006 at 06:43:08PM -0400, Charles Hallenbeck wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Hi John,
> 
> I am still enthusiastic about unstable, even after this problem. It 
> turns out that modutils was pretty much replaced by another package, but 
> was still installed, and when I got up enough courage to remove it and 
> purge its files, everything cleared up nicely. Evidently I overlooked 
> something in a changelog or somewhere that would have told me in advance 
> to do that. But the advantages of keeping current with Sid far outweigh 
> the occasional problems that might arise. This is the first problem I 
> have had with unstable in -- let's see -- closer to a year than to six 
> months now. One thing that helps is to install apt-listbugs and 
> apt-listchanges, which warn you during the upgrade process about known 
> problems. Of course you have to pay attention to those warnings, though. 
> <smile>
> 
> Chuck
> 
> - -- 
> The Moon is Waning Gibbous (73% of Full)
> Get downloads from http://www.mhcable.com/~chuckh
>   and remember, INFORMATION WANTS TO BE FREE!
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux)
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> =L5X8
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> 
---end quoted text---

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Re: package installation problem

[Charles Hallenbeck]

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Hash: SHA1

Hi Gina,

I usually do a dist-upgrade just about every day. If I neglect it for 
several days I might do a simple upgrade first, but since I try to keep 
on top of the rapidly changing material on unstable, dist-upgrade makes 
the most sense. A simple upgrade will never add anything not already 
present, or remove anything in order to upgrade a package, and so 
sometimes things get put on hold. Doing a dist-upgrade routinely will do 
the necessary adds and removes required to upgrade a package, and the 
holds soon get resolved.

No second thoughts here at all about unstable. My next New Year 
Resolution will be to pay more attention to the contents of the 
apt-changes reports that accompany an upgrade. 

Chuck

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Re: package installation problem

[Georgina Joyce]

Hi

Yes, I quite agree.  But why wait until new year? <grin>.

On Wed, Apr 19, 2006 at 06:24:03AM -0400, Charles Hallenbeck wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Hi Gina,
> 
> I usually do a dist-upgrade just about every day. If I neglect it for 
> several days I might do a simple upgrade first, but since I try to keep 
> on top of the rapidly changing material on unstable, dist-upgrade makes 
> the most sense. A simple upgrade will never add anything not already 
> present, or remove anything in order to upgrade a package, and so 
> sometimes things get put on hold. Doing a dist-upgrade routinely will do 
> the necessary adds and removes required to upgrade a package, and the 
> holds soon get resolved.
> 
> No second thoughts here at all about unstable. My next New Year 
> Resolution will be to pay more attention to the contents of the 
> apt-changes reports that accompany an upgrade. 
> 
> Chuck
> 
> - -- 
> The Moon is Waning Gibbous (69% of Full)
> Get downloads from http://www.mhcable.com/~chuckh
>   and remember, INFORMATION WANTS TO BE FREE!
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux)
> 
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> 8v47dfCvZhLPW2bnHXit6rA=
> =XgEr
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---end quoted text---

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debian versions (was: package installation problem)

[John Heim]

At 05:43 PM 4/18/2006, Charles Hallenbeck wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>Hi John,
>
>I am still enthusiastic about unstable, even after this problem. It
>turns out that modutils was pretty much replaced by another package, but
>was still installed, and when I got up enough courage to remove it and
>purge its files, everything cleared up nicely. Evidently I overlooked
>something in a changelog or somewhere that would have told me in advance
>to do that. But the advantages of keeping current with Sid far outweigh
>the occasional problems that might arise. This is the first problem I
>have had with unstable in -- let's see -- closer to a year than to six
>months now. One thing that helps is to install apt-listbugs and
>apt-listchanges, which warn you during the upgrade process about known
>problems. Of course you have to pay attention to those warnings, though.

That is a great tip. I was running unstable on my laptop for quite some 
time because it's very old. That may sound contradictory but by running 
unstable, i was able to get some driver fixes i needed.

Actually, i switched back to testing just about 2 weeks ago because 
unstable sounds dangerous. I guess i thought i was asking for trouble by 
running an "unstable" version of linux. Maybe that was unnecessary. I was 
worried though because I've become quite dependent upon my laptop to do my job.

We run stable/sarge  here at the math Department at the University of 
wisconsin.  But when I build a new machine, i use a kernel downloaded from
http://people.debian.org/~shane/speakup/kernel ./

Building my own speakup enabled kernel is on my to-do list for this 
week.  I've built kernels but never with the speakup patches. I couldn't 
get it to work last time I tried because I didn't have time to do it right. 
I was trying to cut corners and it didn't work.

I need to see if I can build a kernel for pebble linux with speakup 
enabled. Pebble linux is a debian derivative runs on compact flash 
drives.  If I get that working, then  I can use this very small computer 
called a Soekris that runs linux off a cf drive. Then I can leave my laptop 
at home.

This Soekris computer is only about 8 inches by 4 inches by 1 inch. It has 
a 512 Mb compact flash (which i bought myself), 1 PCI slot, 128 Mb RAM, and 
a 266 Mhz processor. It has a USB port, 2 serial ports, and 3 ethernet 
ports. No hard drive. No video.  If I can get it to talk, I plan to use it 
to troubleshoot networking problems.

The cool thing about this machine is that the BIOS setup program runs 
through the serial port.  You get a command line interface on the first 
serial port and that's how you control the BIOS. Very nice for a blind guy.

Re: debian versions (was: package installation problem)

[Charles Hallenbeck]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

That's cool.

The worst thing about unstable is its name. With a little caution you 
can be very happy with it, and will always have current stuff running.

I installed the package called "linux-source-2.6.16-xxx" which places a 
source tarball in /usr/src, then patched it with speakup, configured and 
compiled it, and now from time to time apt-get upgrade replaces the 
tarball with a revision. I just patch the revision, use the same 
.config, compile and install it, and away we go. The linux-source 
packages from the Debian repositories are already patched with Debian 
security fixes, many of which will eventually migrate upstream to become 
part of future kernel releases. 

Best of luck,

Chuck

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Re: debian versions (was: package installation problem)

[Steve Holmes]

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Hash: RIPEMD160

About this little computer, is that still currently available? if so
about how much do these things cost?  If the price is right, this may be
an excellent solution to the delema of the high cost of accessible
portable computing devices for the blind.

On Wed, Apr 19, 2006 at 09:53:05AM -0500, John Heim wrote:
> At 05:43 PM 4/18/2006, Charles Hallenbeck wrote:
> 
> I need to see if I can build a kernel for pebble linux with speakup 
> enabled. Pebble linux is a debian derivative runs on compact flash 
> drives.  If I get that working, then  I can use this very small computer 
> called a Soekris that runs linux off a cf drive. Then I can leave my laptop 
> at home.
> 
> This Soekris computer is only about 8 inches by 4 inches by 1 inch. It has 
> a 512 Mb compact flash (which i bought myself), 1 PCI slot, 128 Mb RAM, and 
> a 266 Mhz processor. It has a USB port, 2 serial ports, and 3 ethernet 
> ports. No hard drive. No video.  If I can get it to talk, I plan to use it 
> to troubleshoot networking problems.
> 
> The cool thing about this machine is that the BIOS setup program runs 
> through the serial port.  You get a command line interface on the first 
> serial port and that's how you control the BIOS. Very nice for a blind guy.
> 

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Re: debian versions (was: package installation problem)

[John Heim]

At 03:17 PM 4/19/2006, Steve Holmes wrote:

>About this little computer, is that still currently available? if so
>about how much do these things cost?  If the price is right, this may be
>an excellent solution to the delema of the high cost of accessible
>portable computing devices for the blind.


I was thinking about that too. The math Department bought one of these 
things intending to use it as a wireless router. That's what it is designed 
for. But my predecessor never got around to setting it up and they ended up 
just buying preconfigured routers.   So for me, the device itself was free.

Anyway, the current price on soekris.com is $240 for the device I have. I 
spent $20 on a 512 Mb CF drive. Figure another $25 for a sound card (just 
any sound card won't work -- you need a low voltage, half height card).  A 
USB keyboard is another $20. So to do it yourself it would be around $300. 
If you have an external speech synth, as i do, you wouldn't need the sound card

I was talking to a guy last week who had bought a brand new 1.5 Ghz laptop 
for $500. A soekris computer would have some advantages and some 
disadvantages over just buying a cheap laptop:

1. The soekris has just a 266 Mhz processor so software speech may be a 
problem. Once I get it working with my doubletalk external, I intend to buy 
a sound card and try software speech. I can report back then.
2. The soekris doesn't have a battery so that is a major drawback compared 
to just getting a cheap laptop.
3. The AC adapter is amazingly small. It's only about the size of my thumb. 
So it would be easy to carry around if you're going to be where you can 
plug it in.
4. You can configure the BIOS yourself. I mentioned this earlier but the 
BIOS is controlled through the first serial port. That's not true for any 
laptop I know of.
5. The soekirs has no keyboard. You'd have to lug around a USB keyboard.

I did a search on ebay and saw that there is a used soekirs 4801 currently 
at $100.  That's the one with the 266 processor. There is a couple of 4501s 
going for the $30 range. They have a 133 Mhz processor.  But with an 
external speech synth, they'd probably be okay.  So if somebody wants to 
goof with it, it might be worthwhile.

One thing that would be cool would be if you're sitting there at your 
keyboard typing away (no monitor, of course) and somebody comes into your 
office and says, "Hey, where is your computer?" You tap the little soekris 
machine and say, "Right here."

Re: debian versions (was: package installation problem)

[Gregory Nowak]

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Hash: SHA1

On Fri, Apr 21, 2006 at 10:53:36AM -0500, John Heim wrote:
> Figure another $25 for a sound card (just 
> any sound card won't work -- you need a low voltage, half height
card).

Where does one get one of those? They're not very common.

> 1. The soekris has just a 266 Mhz processor so software speech may be a 
> problem.

I'm currently running speakup with speechd-up, speech-dispatcher, and
flite as the synth, on a 266 Mhz AMD k5-based laptop, which seems to be
roughly the same CPU as the one used in the Soekris machines, and it's
running just fine without problems.

BTW, I've just had a look at the Soekris web site, and didn't see the
4500 mentioned anywhere. The lowest 4500 model mentioned is the 4501,
and that comes only with a 133 Mhz 486 class CPU.

Greg



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Re: debian versions (was: package installation problem)

[John Heim]

At 02:18 PM 4/21/2006, Gregory Nowak wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>On Fri, Apr 21, 2006 at 10:53:36AM -0500, John Heim wrote:
> > any sound card won't work -- you need a low voltage, half height
>card).
>
>Where does one get one of those? They're not very common.

I don't know right now. It's come up on the soekris email list from time to 
time. I wasn't ready to put a sound card in so I didn't pay much attention. 
I didn't know 3.3v sound cards were that hard to find. There happened to be 
a full-height 3.3v sound card lying around here so I assumed they were 
fairly common.

I can probably try to get software speech  working with the full sized 
card. It sticks out of the case but that should not be a problem while I'm 
messing with it.

BTW, I've just had a look at the Soekris web site, and didn't see the
>4500 mentioned anywhere. The lowest 4500 model mentioned is the 4501,
>and that comes only with a 133 Mhz 486 class CPU.

I have a 4801. If I ever talked about a 4500, it was merely a typo.

the soekris machines, was: Re: debian versions (was: package installation problem)

[Gregory Nowak]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Perhaps I should clarify. I didn't mean that 3.3V sound cards
weren't very common, I meant that sound cards other then full-height
ones weren't very common. I would have thought  my post made this fairly obvious,
but maybe not to everyone.

BTW, I realized that in my previous post, I wrote that the laptop I
was using was AMD k5-based, it's actually an AMD k6. I was thinking of
586 class machines, so I guess that's where the 5 came from (grin).

Greg


On Fri, Apr 21, 2006 at 03:21:19PM -0500, John Heim wrote:
> I don't know right now. It's come up on the soekris email list from time to 
> time. I wasn't ready to put a sound card in so I didn't pay much attention. 
> I didn't know 3.3v sound cards were that hard to find. There happened to be 
> a full-height 3.3v sound card lying around here so I assumed they were 
> fairly common.
> 

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Re: the soekris machines, was: Re: debian versions (was: package installation problem)

[John Heim]

At 03:32 PM 4/21/2006, Gregory Nowak wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>Perhaps I should clarify. I didn't mean that 3.3V sound cards
>weren't very common, I meant that sound cards other then full-height
>ones weren't very common. I would have thought  my post made this fairly 
>obvious,
>but maybe not to everyone.

You can google for "low profile". If you can google for "3.3v" I don't know 
how. So I found plenty of half-height sound cards but who knows if they're 
the right voltage.

The cheapest low profile card I found is $60 including shipping:
http://h30094.www3.hp.com/product.asp?sku=2629898&jumpid=ex_r2910_bizratesmb/audio_

Re: debian versions (was: package installation problem)

[ace]

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Hash: SHA1

Hello,

What is the difference between unstable and testing?
Are there CD versions of either of these?  On debian.org, I notice that
there is a CD distro of the stable version--how old is this?  Is it
Sarge?  I am interested in perhaps giving Debian a try but I prefer
staying up-to-date and can't easily perform a net install over a dialup.

Robby
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Re: debian versions (was: package installation problem)

[Charles Hallenbeck]

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Hash: SHA1

Hi Robbie,

I don't think Debian is available on CD's much beyond the stable release 
(Sarge) or maybe an earlier stable one. I doubt you could keep it up to 
date over a dialup connection. You would be spending lots of hours 
retrieving stuff, at least with unstable you would.

There are always three versions of Debian available. Currently stable is 
called Sarge, testing is called Etch, and unstable is always called Sid. 
Stable remains fixed except for security updates. Etch is a sort of 
staging area where the next stable release gradually takes shape. 
Eventually it will be judged mature enough to replace Sarge as the 
stable version, at which point Sarge becomes history, Etch becomes the 
stable release, and a new name is thought up for a new testing release.

Meanwhile Sid exists (unstable) as a kind of rapid turnover beta testing 
collection of things. New offerings appear in Sid first, where they 
remain until the kinks are worked out. Users of Sid are warned that 
things might sometimes break, but the fact is that when that happens, 
they get fixed pretty quickly too. Packages are moved into testing from 
unstable at some point, hopefully bug free, but of course occasionally 
something show up in testing that had not been seen before. When that 
happens, testing is generally out of luck until the cycle begins again. 
The fix appears in unstable and is put through the mill again, 
eventually returning to testing after a successful exposure in Sid. 

So you see, if you really to keep up with the latest version of things, 
unstable is the place to be. If you want a rock solid release that will 
not give you any surprises, then stable is the place to be. If you want 
to be a little bit ahead of the game, but are afraid of being a beta 
tester, then testing might be the place. The trouble with testing is 
that broken packages stay broken until they pass the test of use in 
unstable once more. 

HTH

Chuck

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Get downloads from http://www.mhcable.com/~chuckh
  and remember, INFORMATION WANTS TO BE FREE!
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Re: debian versions (was: package installation problem)

[ace]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

So, there isn't a way to upgrade packages in the stable version?  Like
if there is a new version of openssl, could one just do apt-upgrade or
something like that or are they stuck with the version included on the
CD?  If this is a case, then one can run a pretty up-to-date system with
the stable version, correct?  Also, how long has the current Sarge been
out?  Thanks for answering my questions.

Robby
On Wed, Apr 19, 2006 at 03:48:01PM -0400, Charles Hallenbeck wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Hi Robbie,
> 
> I don't think Debian is available on CD's much beyond the stable release 
> (Sarge) or maybe an earlier stable one. I doubt you could keep it up to 
> date over a dialup connection. You would be spending lots of hours 
> retrieving stuff, at least with unstable you would.
> 
> There are always three versions of Debian available. Currently stable is 
> called Sarge, testing is called Etch, and unstable is always called Sid. 
> Stable remains fixed except for security updates. Etch is a sort of 
> staging area where the next stable release gradually takes shape. 
> Eventually it will be judged mature enough to replace Sarge as the 
> stable version, at which point Sarge becomes history, Etch becomes the 
> stable release, and a new name is thought up for a new testing release.
> 
> Meanwhile Sid exists (unstable) as a kind of rapid turnover beta testing 
> collection of things. New offerings appear in Sid first, where they 
> remain until the kinks are worked out. Users of Sid are warned that 
> things might sometimes break, but the fact is that when that happens, 
> they get fixed pretty quickly too. Packages are moved into testing from 
> unstable at some point, hopefully bug free, but of course occasionally 
> something show up in testing that had not been seen before. When that 
> happens, testing is generally out of luck until the cycle begins again. 
> The fix appears in unstable and is put through the mill again, 
> eventually returning to testing after a successful exposure in Sid. 
> 
> So you see, if you really to keep up with the latest version of things, 
> unstable is the place to be. If you want a rock solid release that will 
> not give you any surprises, then stable is the place to be. If you want 
> to be a little bit ahead of the game, but are afraid of being a beta 
> tester, then testing might be the place. The trouble with testing is 
> that broken packages stay broken until they pass the test of use in 
> unstable once more. 
> 
> HTH
> 
> Chuck
> 
> - -- 
> The Moon is Waning Gibbous (65% of Full)
> Get downloads from http://www.mhcable.com/~chuckh
>   and remember, INFORMATION WANTS TO BE FREE!
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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> =3DM6
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
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Re: debian versions (was: package installation problem)

[Charles Hallenbeck]

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Theoretically it is possible to mix and match from the different 
releases, but it is very tricky and not a good idea, especially for 
beginners. The problem is all the dependencies that go along with a 
"foreign" package. 

Sarge moved from testing to stable a little less than a year ago, and it 
isn't that old, actually. You can run a 2.6 kernel in it for instance. 
Etch is scheduled for release as the next stable version by the end of 
2006, but such schedules have a tendency to be optimistic.

- -- 
The Moon is Waning Gibbous (64% of Full)
Get downloads from http://www.mhcable.com/~chuckh
  and remember, INFORMATION WANTS TO BE FREE!
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Re: debian versions (was: package installation problem)

[ace]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

OK, one more question.  :)

If a security fix comes out for a package...say Mutt or something...Will
it be available for stable users to apply without having to take it from
an unstable or testing branch or does stable just remain the same until
testing becomes stable?

Robby
On Wed, Apr 19, 2006 at 04:25:07PM -0400, Charles Hallenbeck wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Theoretically it is possible to mix and match from the different 
> releases, but it is very tricky and not a good idea, especially for 
> beginners. The problem is all the dependencies that go along with a 
> "foreign" package. 
> 
> Sarge moved from testing to stable a little less than a year ago, and it 
> isn't that old, actually. You can run a 2.6 kernel in it for instance. 
> Etch is scheduled for release as the next stable version by the end of 
> 2006, but such schedules have a tendency to be optimistic.
> 
> - -- 
> The Moon is Waning Gibbous (64% of Full)
> Get downloads from http://www.mhcable.com/~chuckh
>   and remember, INFORMATION WANTS TO BE FREE!
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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> =34SY
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
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Re: debian versions (was: package installation problem)

[Charles Hallenbeck]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Security patches are always made available for packages in stable as 
well as in testing. But new features will never be added to a stable 
package. That presents an interesting problem for including Mozilla in 
Sarge, since when the Mozilla folks release a new version it typically 
addresses security fixes but also adds new features. So the Debian folks 
are not sure how to handle this. It seems against the rules to update a 
stable package in a way that adds new features, and yet they have to keep 
it safe to use. Some folks have even argued that maybe mozilla should 
not even be included in Sarge for that reason, but of course it is.

The unstable release does not have any official security patches. There 
are security problems discovered sometimes of course, but those are 
fixed when found, and just not called security patches. A security patch 
is only issued for a package that has previously been released into 
either the testing or the stable distributions.

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Get downloads from http://www.mhcable.com/~chuckh
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Re: debian versions (was: package installation problem)

[Thomas Stivers]

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Hash: RIPEMD160

On Wed, Apr 19, 2006 at 04:34:49 PM -0500, ace wrote:
> OK, one more question.  :)
> 
> If a security fix comes out for a package...say Mutt or something...Will
> it be available for stable users to apply without having to take it from
> an unstable or testing branch or does stable just remain the same until
> testing becomes stable?

There is an apt repository for security fixes which stable users can add
to their /etc/apt/sources.list. Every couple months a new revision of
stable comes out wich puts all the security fixes that have been made on
a new cd release. Security fixes are the only changes which happen to
stable until testing becomes the next stable.

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Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are,
by definition, not smart enough to debug it." - Brian W. Kernighan

Thomas Stivers	e-mail: stivers_t@tomass.dyndns.org
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Re: debian versions (was: package installation problem)

[tony seth]

hey there, just curious where you'd bet one of these... twould be neat...

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Re: debian versions (was: package installation problem)

[John Heim]

At 07:51 PM 4/19/2006, tony seth wrote:
>hey there, just curious where you'd bet one of these... twould be neat...

I am guessing you are talking about a soekris computer. You can order them 
directly from soekris.com. The one I've got, a soekris 4801 is $240 for 
one.  But there's one on ebay right now for $100 with about a day left on 
the auction.