An idea,

An idea,

[Murthy T S N]

Hi all,
I am following  this list and all topics are very much required.
Now my question is
Can we make an effort to support either gnome or kde using speakup?
Please share your ideas in this regard.
Thanks.

   

Re: An idea,

[Luke Yelavich]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Tue, Jul 26, 2005 at 05:03:26PM EST, Murthy T S N wrote:
> Hi all,
> I am following  this list and all topics are very much required.
> Now my question is
> Can we make an effort to support either gnome or kde using speakup?
> Please share your ideas in this regard.

Not without a great deal of work. As it is, GNOME and KDE have their own 
screen readers, of which GNOME's is more advanced at this point in time. 
It is unable to use all the speech synthesizers that speakup supports, 
but this could change in the future.
- -- 
Luke Yelavich
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Email & MSN: themuso@themuso.com
ICQ: 18444344
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Re: An idea,

[Willem van der Walt]

No.
Speakup is a screen reader for text-only mode and will not ever be usable 
for gnome or kde.  Gnopernicus is the most advanced screen reader for the 
graphical environment under linux.  One would then, once gnopernicus is a 
little more advanced, use speakup for some work in text mode and 
gnopernicus for the things one wants to do under graphical mode.
HTH
Willem


On Tue, 26 Jul 2005, Murthy T S N wrote:

> Hi all,
> I am following  this list and all topics are very much required.
> Now my question is
> Can we make an effort to support either gnome or kde using speakup?
> Please share your ideas in this regard.
> Thanks.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

-- 
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
MailScanner thanks transtec Computers for their support.

Re: An idea,

[Chris Norman]

There is another list for Speakup. it's at www.linux-speakup.org. Not sure 
of the details, and I have to do a runner round about now.

Cheers,

Chris Norman.

<!-- chris.norman4@ntlworld.com -->
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Murthy T S N" <murthyn@aztec.soft.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 8:03 AM
Subject: An idea,


> Hi all,
> I am following  this list and all topics are very much required.
> Now my question is
> Can we make an effort to support either gnome or kde using speakup?
> Please share your ideas in this regard.
> Thanks.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.4/57 - Release Date: 22/07/2005
>
> 

Re: An idea,

[Chris Norman]

I'm really sorry about this, I have three different lists sending mail into 
one box, I'm going to have to pipe it into three different folders.

Sorry for the rubbish:)

Chris Norman.

<!-- chris.norman4@ntlworld.com -->
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chris Norman" <chris.norman4@ntlworld.com>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 8:23 AM
Subject: Re: An idea,


> There is another list for Speakup. it's at www.linux-speakup.org. Not sure 
> of the details, and I have to do a runner round about now.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Chris Norman.
>
> <!-- chris.norman4@ntlworld.com -->
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Murthy T S N" <murthyn@aztec.soft.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 8:03 AM
> Subject: An idea,
>
>
>> Hi all,
>> I am following  this list and all topics are very much required.
>> Now my question is
>> Can we make an effort to support either gnome or kde using speakup?
>> Please share your ideas in this regard.
>> Thanks.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>> Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.4/57 - Release Date: 22/07/2005
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.4/57 - Release Date: 22/07/2005
>
> 

Re[2]: An idea,

[Farhan]

I was thinking, well can't we make the development of gnopernicus go
alittle bit faster? I want to use linux but i can't brows some
webpages with links, lynx, or elinks such as http://fanfiction.net. I'm
a desktop user, and i'm not going to windows vista.

on7/26/2005Willem van der Walt said  
No.
Speakup is a screen reader for text-only mode and will not ever be usable 
for gnome or kde.  Gnopernicus is the most advanced screen reader for the 
graphical environment under linux.  One would then, once gnopernicus is a 
little more advanced, use speakup for some work in text mode and 
gnopernicus for the things one wants to do under graphical mode.
HTH
Willem


On Tue, 26 Jul 2005, Murthy T S N wrote:

> Hi all,
> I am following  this list and all topics are very much required.
> Now my question is
> Can we make an effort to support either gnome or kde using speakup?
> Please share your ideas in this regard.
> Thanks.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

-- 
This message has been scanned for viruses and
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MailScanner thanks transtec Computers for their support.


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Farhan
contact info.
Aim: and stoof
msn: i.am.Farhan@gmail.com
Jabber: Farhan@jabber.org

Re: An idea,

[Kenny Hitt]

Hi.

Your idea isn't possible.  Speakup is a text mode screen reader.  Gnome
and KDE are graphics mode environments.

          Kenny

On Tue, Jul 26, 2005 at 12:33:26PM +0530, Murthy T S N wrote:
> Hi all,
> I am following  this list and all topics are very much required.
> Now my question is
> Can we make an effort to support either gnome or kde using speakup?
> Please share your ideas in this regard.
> Thanks.
> 
>    
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: An idea,

[Gregory Nowak]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

No problem. The source for gnopernicus is out there, and developers
are welcomed s far as I know. So, if you want to speed up the
development of gnopernicus, sit down and right the necessary code
yourself, or higher someone to do it.

Greg


On Tue, Jul 26, 2005 at 04:29:07AM -0500, Farhan wrote:
> I was thinking, well can't we make the development of gnopernicus go
> alittle bit faster? I want to use linux but i can't brows some
> webpages with links, lynx, or elinks such as http://fanfiction.net. I'm
> a desktop user, and i'm not going to windows vista.
> 
> on7/26/2005Willem van der Walt said  
> No.
> Speakup is a screen reader for text-only mode and will not ever be usable 
> for gnome or kde.  Gnopernicus is the most advanced screen reader for the 
> graphical environment under linux.  One would then, once gnopernicus is a 
> little more advanced, use speakup for some work in text mode and 
> gnopernicus for the things one wants to do under graphical mode.
> HTH
> Willem
> 
> 
> On Tue, 26 Jul 2005, Murthy T S N wrote:
> 
> > Hi all,
> > I am following  this list and all topics are very much required.
> > Now my question is
> > Can we make an effort to support either gnome or kde using speakup?
> > Please share your ideas in this regard.
> > Thanks.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> -- 
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
> believed to be clean.
> MailScanner thanks transtec Computers for their support.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> Farhan
> contact info.
> Aim: and stoof
> msn: i.am.Farhan@gmail.com
> Jabber: Farhan@jabber.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> !DSPAM:42e602c6125661886640297!
> 
> 

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Re: An idea,

[Sean McMahon]

My opinion, no.  speakup is designed to be part of the core build of a linux
distro.  Gnome is one of many graphical front ends to a distrobution.  It is
necessary for all users of a linux system to understand the console environment
to fully maintain their system, some may find a graphical user interface useful
for user-level functionality which would not compromise the entegrity of a
system.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Murthy T S N" <murthyn@aztec.soft.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 12:03 AM
Subject: An idea,


> Hi all,
> I am following  this list and all topics are very much required.
> Now my question is
> Can we make an effort to support either gnome or kde using speakup?
> Please share your ideas in this regard.
> Thanks.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: An idea,

[Sean McMahon]

What I've heard is they really lack in the area of documentation.  That may be
an area for those of you who play with it to work on.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gregory Nowak" <greg@romuald.net.eu.org>
To: "Farhan" <i.am.Farhan@gmail.com>; "Speakup is a screen review system for
Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 8:38 AM
Subject: Re: An idea,


> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> No problem. The source for gnopernicus is out there, and developers
> are welcomed s far as I know. So, if you want to speed up the
> development of gnopernicus, sit down and right the necessary code
> yourself, or higher someone to do it.
>
> Greg
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 26, 2005 at 04:29:07AM -0500, Farhan wrote:
> > I was thinking, well can't we make the development of gnopernicus go
> > alittle bit faster? I want to use linux but i can't brows some
> > webpages with links, lynx, or elinks such as http://fanfiction.net. I'm
> > a desktop user, and i'm not going to windows vista.
> >
> > on7/26/2005Willem van der Walt said
> > No.
> > Speakup is a screen reader for text-only mode and will not ever be usable
> > for gnome or kde.  Gnopernicus is the most advanced screen reader for the
> > graphical environment under linux.  One would then, once gnopernicus is a
> > little more advanced, use speakup for some work in text mode and
> > gnopernicus for the things one wants to do under graphical mode.
> > HTH
> > Willem
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 26 Jul 2005, Murthy T S N wrote:
> >
> > > Hi all,
> > > I am following  this list and all topics are very much required.
> > > Now my question is
> > > Can we make an effort to support either gnome or kde using speakup?
> > > Please share your ideas in this regard.
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> > -- 
> > This message has been scanned for viruses and
> > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
> > believed to be clean.
> > MailScanner thanks transtec Computers for their support.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> > Farhan
> > contact info.
> > Aim: and stoof
> > msn: i.am.Farhan@gmail.com
> > Jabber: Farhan@jabber.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> > !DSPAM:42e602c6125661886640297!
> >
> >
>
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shuttle coverage

[Igor Gueths]

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Hi all. Just curious if whether or not someone's figured out what the url is to the wmv stream on yahoo? I'm trying to do so right now, however I was wondering if this had already been 
done...I'd like to be able to listen to this thing on my Linux machine.
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- -- Alan Cox
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Re: An idea,

[Lorenzo Taylor]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Here's another idea, maybe no one has thought of it yet, or maybe it is
impossible to implement, but here it goes.

It seems that the existing approaches for X screen readers should be taking a
look at Speakup as a model.  Gnopernicus, for example, is using libraries that
rely on certain information ent by the underlying application libraries.
Unfortunately, this implementation causes only some apps to speak while others
which use the same widgets but whose libraries don't send messages to the
accessibility system will not speak.  But it occurs to me that X is simply a
protocol by which client applications send messages to a server which renders
the proper text, windows, buttons and other widgets on the screen.  I believe
that a screen reader that is an extension to the X server itself, (like Speakup
is a set of patches to the kernel) would be a far better solution, as it could
capture everything sent to the server and correctly translate it into humanly
understandable speech output without relying on "accessibility messages" being
sent from the client apps.

Any thoughts on this would be welcome.

Lorenzo
- -- 
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Re: An idea,

[Kenny Hitt]

Hi.

At the Xserver level, you don't have any
information but draw this pixle using this comvination of rgb data.
This pixel should be drawn on this screen of this display.

The text info and control type are at the library level and not at the
Xserver level.

The best comparison I've come up with to MS windows is to think of the
Xserver as the drivers for video, keyboard, and mouse.  Even the
implimentation and management of windows on the screen is handled by an
app that just talks to the Xserver.

If you want to see this, create an .xinitrc file that only starts the
Xserver and no apps.  You will have a screen with a mouse pointer.  You
can move the pointer, but that will be it.  Since no window manager or
app will be running, you can only kill off the Xserver, change the
screen resolution, or move a useless mouse pointer around a screen.
BTW, the words "screen"and "display"have different and specific meanings
in X.  My explanation above mixes terms to try to get across my point.
I've read some X HOWTOs that do a better job of explaining it, but I
think you get the idea.  Since current distros set up X for you
automatically, you don't need to follow the instructions in an X HOWTO,
but they are worth reading for educational purposes.

To get the best results with Gnome, you need an app that uses gtk2, a
screen reader that understands the info sent by the gtk2 accessibility
structure (atspi), and a window manager that also sends window events to
atspi.

For KDE accessibility, substitute KDE for Gnome and qt4 for gtk2 in the
previous paragraph.

Hope this helps.
          Kenny
	  
On Tue, Jul 26, 2005 at 11:41:21PM -0400, Lorenzo Taylor wrote:
> Here's another idea, maybe no one has thought of it yet, or maybe it is
> impossible to implement, but here it goes.
> 
> It seems that the existing approaches for X screen readers should be taking a
> look at Speakup as a model.  Gnopernicus, for example, is using libraries that
> rely on certain information ent by the underlying application libraries.
> Unfortunately, this implementation causes only some apps to speak while others
> which use the same widgets but whose libraries don't send messages to the
> accessibility system will not speak.  But it occurs to me that X is simply a
> protocol by which client applications send messages to a server which renders
> the proper text, windows, buttons and other widgets on the screen.  I believe
> that a screen reader that is an extension to the X server itself, (like Speakup
> is a set of patches to the kernel) would be a far better solution, as it could
> capture everything sent to the server and correctly translate it into humanly
> understandable speech output without relying on "accessibility messages" being
> sent from the client apps.
> 
> Any thoughts on this would be welcome.
> 
> Lorenzo
> -- 
> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> Version: 3.12
> GCS d- s:+ a- C+++ UL++++ P+ L+++ E- W++ N o K- w---
> O M V- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP++ t++ 5+ X+ R tv-- b++ DI-- D+
> G e* h---- r+++ y+++
> ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: An idea,

[Kelly Prescott]

hmm, a interesting concept...
The problem is that by the time the x server sees most of the stuff, it is 
just screen position renderings.  The server does not have a concept of 
letters, characters, etc.
The server knows where you click on a screen, for example, but it just 
sends the information to the under lying application which is responsible 
for deciding if you have clicked on a button etc.
This is a over simplified explaination, but for our purposes, it will 
do...
Bottom line is that what ever toolbox, library, wigit set, rendering app, 
or what ever, it must feed the textual information to some interface for 
the screen reader to get at it so it can be read.
Hope this helps.
kp



On Tue, 26 Jul 2005, Lorenzo Taylor wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Here's another idea, maybe no one has thought of it yet, or maybe it is
> impossible to implement, but here it goes.
>
> It seems that the existing approaches for X screen readers should be taking a
> look at Speakup as a model.  Gnopernicus, for example, is using libraries that
> rely on certain information ent by the underlying application libraries.
> Unfortunately, this implementation causes only some apps to speak while others
> which use the same widgets but whose libraries don't send messages to the
> accessibility system will not speak.  But it occurs to me that X is simply a
> protocol by which client applications send messages to a server which renders
> the proper text, windows, buttons and other widgets on the screen.  I believe
> that a screen reader that is an extension to the X server itself, (like Speakup
> is a set of patches to the kernel) would be a far better solution, as it could
> capture everything sent to the server and correctly translate it into humanly
> understandable speech output without relying on "accessibility messages" being
> sent from the client apps.
>
> Any thoughts on this would be welcome.
>
> Lorenzo
> - --
> - -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> Version: 3.12
> GCS d- s:+ a- C+++ UL++++ P+ L+++ E- W++ N o K- w---
> O M V- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP++ t++ 5+ X+ R tv-- b++ DI-- D+
> G e* h---- r+++ y+++
> - ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
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> =lUXl
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: An idea,

[John covici]

Well, I am not sure how it worked, but I once tried an X server for
windows which was able to figure out the controls under Linux and my
windows screen reader was able to read them after a fashion, so I
wonder if there is some window information passed to the Xserver after
all.

on Wednesday 07/27/2005 Kelly Prescott(prescott@deltav.org) wrote
 > hmm, a interesting concept...
 > The problem is that by the time the x server sees most of the stuff, it is 
 > just screen position renderings.  The server does not have a concept of 
 > letters, characters, etc.
 > The server knows where you click on a screen, for example, but it just 
 > sends the information to the under lying application which is responsible 
 > for deciding if you have clicked on a button etc.
 > This is a over simplified explaination, but for our purposes, it will 
 > do...
 > Bottom line is that what ever toolbox, library, wigit set, rendering app, 
 > or what ever, it must feed the textual information to some interface for 
 > the screen reader to get at it so it can be read.
 > Hope this helps.
 > kp
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > On Tue, 26 Jul 2005, Lorenzo Taylor wrote:
 > 
 > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
 > > Hash: SHA1
 > >
 > > Here's another idea, maybe no one has thought of it yet, or maybe it is
 > > impossible to implement, but here it goes.
 > >
 > > It seems that the existing approaches for X screen readers should be taking a
 > > look at Speakup as a model.  Gnopernicus, for example, is using libraries that
 > > rely on certain information ent by the underlying application libraries.
 > > Unfortunately, this implementation causes only some apps to speak while others
 > > which use the same widgets but whose libraries don't send messages to the
 > > accessibility system will not speak.  But it occurs to me that X is simply a
 > > protocol by which client applications send messages to a server which renders
 > > the proper text, windows, buttons and other widgets on the screen.  I believe
 > > that a screen reader that is an extension to the X server itself, (like Speakup
 > > is a set of patches to the kernel) would be a far better solution, as it could
 > > capture everything sent to the server and correctly translate it into humanly
 > > understandable speech output without relying on "accessibility messages" being
 > > sent from the client apps.
 > >
 > > Any thoughts on this would be welcome.
 > >
 > > Lorenzo
 > > - --
 > > - -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
 > > Version: 3.12
 > > GCS d- s:+ a- C+++ UL++++ P+ L+++ E- W++ N o K- w---
 > > O M V- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP++ t++ 5+ X+ R tv-- b++ DI-- D+
 > > G e* h---- r+++ y+++
 > > - ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
 > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
 > > Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)
 > >
 > > iD8DBQFC5wJhG9IpekrhBfIRAuhgAKDNMp7ThoUKPYqiWC+u8WB3RS0oKQCgulck
 > > 2KEeJCAheJfd5oqbbUgiM5k=
 > > =lUXl
 > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
 > >
 > > _______________________________________________
 > > Speakup mailing list
 > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
 > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
 > >
 > 
 > _______________________________________________
 > Speakup mailing list
 > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
 > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
Your life is like a penny.  You're going to lose it.  The question is:
How do
you spend it?

         John Covici
         covici@ccs.covici.com

Re: An idea,

[Sergei V. Fleytin]

Hello, all.

As far as gui accessibility is concerned, I wonder if anyone on this
list knows what happened with project called ultrasonix. If I remember
correctly, the aim of that project was to provide a library
independent screen reader for the x environment.

-- 
With best regards, Sergei.

Re: An idea,

[Kelly Prescott]

A Xserver for windows and one for Linux are 2 different beasts...
Windows servers use windows toolbox calls to do there work, and that is 
where your screen reader is hooked.
it is like comparing apples to keewee fruit.
They can both be eaten, but they are nothing alike.
kp



On Wed, 27 Jul 2005, John covici wrote:

> Well, I am not sure how it worked, but I once tried an X server for
> windows which was able to figure out the controls under Linux and my
> windows screen reader was able to read them after a fashion, so I
> wonder if there is some window information passed to the Xserver after
> all.
>
> on Wednesday 07/27/2005 Kelly Prescott(prescott@deltav.org) wrote
> > hmm, a interesting concept...
> > The problem is that by the time the x server sees most of the stuff, it is
> > just screen position renderings.  The server does not have a concept of
> > letters, characters, etc.
> > The server knows where you click on a screen, for example, but it just
> > sends the information to the under lying application which is responsible
> > for deciding if you have clicked on a button etc.
> > This is a over simplified explaination, but for our purposes, it will
> > do...
> > Bottom line is that what ever toolbox, library, wigit set, rendering app,
> > or what ever, it must feed the textual information to some interface for
> > the screen reader to get at it so it can be read.
> > Hope this helps.
> > kp
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 26 Jul 2005, Lorenzo Taylor wrote:
> >
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > > Hash: SHA1
> > >
> > > Here's another idea, maybe no one has thought of it yet, or maybe it is
> > > impossible to implement, but here it goes.
> > >
> > > It seems that the existing approaches for X screen readers should be taking a
> > > look at Speakup as a model.  Gnopernicus, for example, is using libraries that
> > > rely on certain information ent by the underlying application libraries.
> > > Unfortunately, this implementation causes only some apps to speak while others
> > > which use the same widgets but whose libraries don't send messages to the
> > > accessibility system will not speak.  But it occurs to me that X is simply a
> > > protocol by which client applications send messages to a server which renders
> > > the proper text, windows, buttons and other widgets on the screen.  I believe
> > > that a screen reader that is an extension to the X server itself, (like Speakup
> > > is a set of patches to the kernel) would be a far better solution, as it could
> > > capture everything sent to the server and correctly translate it into humanly
> > > understandable speech output without relying on "accessibility messages" being
> > > sent from the client apps.
> > >
> > > Any thoughts on this would be welcome.
> > >
> > > Lorenzo
> > > - --
> > > - -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> > > Version: 3.12
> > > GCS d- s:+ a- C+++ UL++++ P+ L+++ E- W++ N o K- w---
> > > O M V- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP++ t++ 5+ X+ R tv-- b++ DI-- D+
> > > G e* h---- r+++ y+++
> > > - ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > > Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)
> > >
> > > iD8DBQFC5wJhG9IpekrhBfIRAuhgAKDNMp7ThoUKPYqiWC+u8WB3RS0oKQCgulck
> > > 2KEeJCAheJfd5oqbbUgiM5k=
> > > =lUXl
> > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> -- 
> Your life is like a penny.  You're going to lose it.  The question is:
> How do
> you spend it?
>
>         John Covici
>         covici@ccs.covici.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: An idea,

[Janina Sajka]

Hi, Lorenzo:

Others have responded with reference to what an X server does, and
doesn't do. I want to respond to two other particular points from your
message.

Lorenzo Taylor writes:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
>  ... Gnopernicus, for example, is using libraries that
> rely on certain information ent by the underlying application libraries.
> Unfortunately, this implementation causes only some apps to speak while others
> which use the same widgets but whose libraries don't send messages to the
> accessibility system will not speak.

This is only partially correct. Any applications using those "same
widgets," as you put it, will speak. There are no exceptions.

What causes them to not speak is that the properties required to make
them speak have not been supplied. So, Gnopernicus is getting an empty
string to renderd, which I suppose it dutifully renders as silence.

Fortunately, these are open source applications and we don't need an
advocacy campaign to resolve these kinds of problems. A solid example of
this at work is the Gnome Volume Control. It was written with gtk2, but
the developers did not supply all the relevant property data. So, a
blind programmer came along one weekend, fixed it, and submitted the
patch which has shipped with the rest of Gnome Volume Control ever
since.

Now the next point ...

>  But it occurs to me that X is simply a
> protocol by which client applications send messages to a server which renders
> the proper text, windows, buttons and other widgets on the screen.  I believe
> that a screen reader that is an extension to the X server itself, (like Speakup
> is a set of patches to the kernel) would be a far better solution, as it could
> capture everything sent to the server and correctly translate it into humanly
> understandable speech output without relying on "accessibility messages" being
> sent from the client apps.


As other have pointed out, there's nothing to be gained by speaking RGB
values at some particular X-Y mouse coordinate location. But, I'm sure
that's not what you really intend. If I interpret you correctly you're
suggesting some kind of mechanism whereby a widget of some kind can be
reliably identified and assigned values that the screen reader can
henceforth utter. This is the approach with Windows OSM that has been
used over the past decade, and it's what allows screen readers, like
JFW, to develop interfaces based on scripts. For instance, Take widget
number 38,492 and call it "volume slider," and speak it before anything
else on screen when it shows up on screen, and facilitate the method
that will allow user to use up and down arrow to change it's value,
etc., etc.

It is arguable, and has been cogently argued over the past 18 months,
that the failure of the original Desktop Accessibility Architecture
promoted by Sun and Gnome was to not provide such mechanisms. A great
part of the intent of the Orca screen reader proof of concept was to
provide exactly this kind of functionality. I believe this is now being
addressed, though I'm not aware any code for newer Gnopernicus (or post
Gnopernicus) readers is yet released. However, I do fully expect that
Gnopernicus is not the last word in desktop screen readers.

				Janina

Re: An idea,

[hank smith]

what program? just curiousity
----- Original Message -----
From: "John covici" <covici@ccs.covici.com>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 10:52 PM
Subject: Re: An idea,


> Well, I am not sure how it worked, but I once tried an X server for
> windows which was able to figure out the controls under Linux and my
> windows screen reader was able to read them after a fashion, so I
> wonder if there is some window information passed to the Xserver after
> all.
>
> on Wednesday 07/27/2005 Kelly Prescott(prescott@deltav.org) wrote
>  > hmm, a interesting concept...
>  > The problem is that by the time the x server sees most of the stuff, it
is
>  > just screen position renderings.  The server does not have a concept of
>  > letters, characters, etc.
>  > The server knows where you click on a screen, for example, but it just
>  > sends the information to the under lying application which is
responsible
>  > for deciding if you have clicked on a button etc.
>  > This is a over simplified explaination, but for our purposes, it will
>  > do...
>  > Bottom line is that what ever toolbox, library, wigit set, rendering
app,
>  > or what ever, it must feed the textual information to some interface
for
>  > the screen reader to get at it so it can be read.
>  > Hope this helps.
>  > kp
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > On Tue, 26 Jul 2005, Lorenzo Taylor wrote:
>  >
>  > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  > > Hash: SHA1
>  > >
>  > > Here's another idea, maybe no one has thought of it yet, or maybe it
is
>  > > impossible to implement, but here it goes.
>  > >
>  > > It seems that the existing approaches for X screen readers should be
taking a
>  > > look at Speakup as a model.  Gnopernicus, for example, is using
libraries that
>  > > rely on certain information ent by the underlying application
libraries.
>  > > Unfortunately, this implementation causes only some apps to speak
while others
>  > > which use the same widgets but whose libraries don't send messages to
the
>  > > accessibility system will not speak.  But it occurs to me that X is
simply a
>  > > protocol by which client applications send messages to a server which
renders
>  > > the proper text, windows, buttons and other widgets on the screen.  I
believe
>  > > that a screen reader that is an extension to the X server itself,
(like Speakup
>  > > is a set of patches to the kernel) would be a far better solution, as
it could
>  > > capture everything sent to the server and correctly translate it into
humanly
>  > > understandable speech output without relying on "accessibility
messages" being
>  > > sent from the client apps.
>  > >
>  > > Any thoughts on this would be welcome.
>  > >
>  > > Lorenzo
>  > > - --
>  > > - -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
>  > > Version: 3.12
>  > > GCS d- s:+ a- C+++ UL++++ P+ L+++ E- W++ N o K- w---
>  > > O M V- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP++ t++ 5+ X+ R tv-- b++ DI-- D+
>  > > G e* h---- r+++ y+++
>  > > - ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
>  > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>  > > Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)
>  > >
>  > > iD8DBQFC5wJhG9IpekrhBfIRAuhgAKDNMp7ThoUKPYqiWC+u8WB3RS0oKQCgulck
>  > > 2KEeJCAheJfd5oqbbUgiM5k=
>  > > =lUXl
>  > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>  > >
>  > > _______________________________________________
>  > > Speakup mailing list
>  > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>  > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>  > >
>  >
>  > _______________________________________________
>  > Speakup mailing list
>  > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>  > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> --
> Your life is like a penny.  You're going to lose it.  The question is:
> How do
> you spend it?
>
>          John Covici
>          covici@ccs.covici.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.5/58 - Release Date: 7/25/2005
>
>

Re: An idea,

[Scott Berry]

This really doesn't pertain to how Gnopernicus works.  But one 
question I really would like to through around out here is why are 
the keystrokes so difficult.  I know you can change key bindings in 
Gnopernicus but it looked like a guy with 20 years of experience 
would have to do it.  Maybe this has changed in recent versions but I 
remember when I started using Gnopernicus wow!  Difficult to learn.



At 08:05 AM 7/27/2005, you wrote:

>Hi, Lorenzo:
>
>Others have responded with reference to what an X server does, and
>doesn't do. I want to respond to two other particular points from your
>message.
>
>Lorenzo Taylor writes:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> >  ... Gnopernicus, for example, is using libraries that
> > rely on certain information ent by the underlying application libraries.
> > Unfortunately, this implementation causes only some apps to speak 
> while others
> > which use the same widgets but whose libraries don't send messages to the
> > accessibility system will not speak.
>
>This is only partially correct. Any applications using those "same
>widgets," as you put it, will speak. There are no exceptions.
>
>What causes them to not speak is that the properties required to make
>them speak have not been supplied. So, Gnopernicus is getting an empty
>string to renderd, which I suppose it dutifully renders as silence.
>
>Fortunately, these are open source applications and we don't need an
>advocacy campaign to resolve these kinds of problems. A solid example of
>this at work is the Gnome Volume Control. It was written with gtk2, but
>the developers did not supply all the relevant property data. So, a
>blind programmer came along one weekend, fixed it, and submitted the
>patch which has shipped with the rest of Gnome Volume Control ever
>since.
>
>Now the next point ...
>
> >  But it occurs to me that X is simply a
> > protocol by which client applications send messages to a server 
> which renders
> > the proper text, windows, buttons and other widgets on the 
> screen.  I believe
> > that a screen reader that is an extension to the X server itself, 
> (like Speakup
> > is a set of patches to the kernel) would be a far better 
> solution, as it could
> > capture everything sent to the server and correctly translate it 
> into humanly
> > understandable speech output without relying on "accessibility 
> messages" being
> > sent from the client apps.
>
>
>As other have pointed out, there's nothing to be gained by speaking RGB
>values at some particular X-Y mouse coordinate location. But, I'm sure
>that's not what you really intend. If I interpret you correctly you're
>suggesting some kind of mechanism whereby a widget of some kind can be
>reliably identified and assigned values that the screen reader can
>henceforth utter. This is the approach with Windows OSM that has been
>used over the past decade, and it's what allows screen readers, like
>JFW, to develop interfaces based on scripts. For instance, Take widget
>number 38,492 and call it "volume slider," and speak it before anything
>else on screen when it shows up on screen, and facilitate the method
>that will allow user to use up and down arrow to change it's value,
>etc., etc.
>
>It is arguable, and has been cogently argued over the past 18 months,
>that the failure of the original Desktop Accessibility Architecture
>promoted by Sun and Gnome was to not provide such mechanisms. A great
>part of the intent of the Orca screen reader proof of concept was to
>provide exactly this kind of functionality. I believe this is now being
>addressed, though I'm not aware any code for newer Gnopernicus (or post
>Gnopernicus) readers is yet released. However, I do fully expect that
>Gnopernicus is not the last word in desktop screen readers.
>
>                                 Janina
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: An idea,

[John covici]

Can't remember -- I think it had 34 in the name.

on Wednesday 07/27/2005 hank smith(hanksmith4@earthlink.net) wrote
 > what program? just curiousity
 > ----- Original Message -----
 > From: "John covici" <covici@ccs.covici.com>
 > To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
 > Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 10:52 PM
 > Subject: Re: An idea,
 > 
 > 
 > > Well, I am not sure how it worked, but I once tried an X server for
 > > windows which was able to figure out the controls under Linux and my
 > > windows screen reader was able to read them after a fashion, so I
 > > wonder if there is some window information passed to the Xserver after
 > > all.
 > >
 > > on Wednesday 07/27/2005 Kelly Prescott(prescott@deltav.org) wrote
 > >  > hmm, a interesting concept...
 > >  > The problem is that by the time the x server sees most of the stuff, it
 > is
 > >  > just screen position renderings.  The server does not have a concept of
 > >  > letters, characters, etc.
 > >  > The server knows where you click on a screen, for example, but it just
 > >  > sends the information to the under lying application which is
 > responsible
 > >  > for deciding if you have clicked on a button etc.
 > >  > This is a over simplified explaination, but for our purposes, it will
 > >  > do...
 > >  > Bottom line is that what ever toolbox, library, wigit set, rendering
 > app,
 > >  > or what ever, it must feed the textual information to some interface
 > for
 > >  > the screen reader to get at it so it can be read.
 > >  > Hope this helps.
 > >  > kp
 > >  >
 > >  >
 > >  >
 > >  > On Tue, 26 Jul 2005, Lorenzo Taylor wrote:
 > >  >
 > >  > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
 > >  > > Hash: SHA1
 > >  > >
 > >  > > Here's another idea, maybe no one has thought of it yet, or maybe it
 > is
 > >  > > impossible to implement, but here it goes.
 > >  > >
 > >  > > It seems that the existing approaches for X screen readers should be
 > taking a
 > >  > > look at Speakup as a model.  Gnopernicus, for example, is using
 > libraries that
 > >  > > rely on certain information ent by the underlying application
 > libraries.
 > >  > > Unfortunately, this implementation causes only some apps to speak
 > while others
 > >  > > which use the same widgets but whose libraries don't send messages to
 > the
 > >  > > accessibility system will not speak.  But it occurs to me that X is
 > simply a
 > >  > > protocol by which client applications send messages to a server which
 > renders
 > >  > > the proper text, windows, buttons and other widgets on the screen.  I
 > believe
 > >  > > that a screen reader that is an extension to the X server itself,
 > (like Speakup
 > >  > > is a set of patches to the kernel) would be a far better solution, as
 > it could
 > >  > > capture everything sent to the server and correctly translate it into
 > humanly
 > >  > > understandable speech output without relying on "accessibility
 > messages" being
 > >  > > sent from the client apps.
 > >  > >
 > >  > > Any thoughts on this would be welcome.
 > >  > >
 > >  > > Lorenzo
 > >  > > - --
 > >  > > - -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
 > >  > > Version: 3.12
 > >  > > GCS d- s:+ a- C+++ UL++++ P+ L+++ E- W++ N o K- w---
 > >  > > O M V- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP++ t++ 5+ X+ R tv-- b++ DI-- D+
 > >  > > G e* h---- r+++ y+++
 > >  > > - ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
 > >  > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
 > >  > > Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)
 > >  > >
 > >  > > iD8DBQFC5wJhG9IpekrhBfIRAuhgAKDNMp7ThoUKPYqiWC+u8WB3RS0oKQCgulck
 > >  > > 2KEeJCAheJfd5oqbbUgiM5k=
 > >  > > =lUXl
 > >  > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
 > >  > >
 > >  > > _______________________________________________
 > >  > > Speakup mailing list
 > >  > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
 > >  > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
 > >  > >
 > >  >
 > >  > _______________________________________________
 > >  > Speakup mailing list
 > >  > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
 > >  > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
 > >
 > > --
 > > Your life is like a penny.  You're going to lose it.  The question is:
 > > How do
 > > you spend it?
 > >
 > >          John Covici
 > >          covici@ccs.covici.com
 > >
 > > _______________________________________________
 > > Speakup mailing list
 > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
 > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
 > >
 > >
 > > --
 > > No virus found in this incoming message.
 > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
 > > Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.5/58 - Release Date: 7/25/2005
 > >
 > >

-- 
Your life is like a penny.  You're going to lose it.  The question is:
How do
you spend it?

         John Covici
         covici@ccs.covici.com

Re: An idea,

[Luke Yelavich]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Thu, Jul 28, 2005 at 12:25:06AM EST, Scott Berry wrote:
> This really doesn't pertain to how Gnopernicus works.  But one 
> question I really would like to through around out here is why are 
> the keystrokes so difficult.  I know you can change key bindings in 
> Gnopernicus but it looked like a guy with 20 years of experience 
> would have to do it.  Maybe this has changed in recent versions but I 
> remember when I started using Gnopernicus wow!  Difficult to learn.

I haven't used Gnopernicus regularly for a while now, but I think it is 
something to do with the various layers of functionality that 
Gnopernicus has. For example, a mouse control layer, a magnification 
control layer, a speech configuration layer, etc. I think the idea was 
to keep as many keystrokes as possible on the numpad.

As you and others may have found out, this is hopeless when attempting 
to use Gnopernicus on a laptop. One has to know how to access their 
laptop numpad keys to use Gnopernicus, and then one still has to switch 
back and forth between modes while working.

It would be worth while bringing this up on the gnome-accessibility 
list, as others may have some ideas about all of this.
- -- 
Luke Yelavich
GPG key: 0xD06320CE 
	 (http://www.themuso.com/themuso-gpg-key.txt)
Email & MSN: themuso@themuso.com
ICQ: 18444344
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFC553ujVefwtBjIM4RAjXBAKDFfrM6MKxIjQpILu43OH63cKSFmACg09HN
GPAAnfZM1eHvPHRDuYNmwss=
=zf/5
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: An idea,

[Janina Sajka]

Aren't you going back more than ten years? I'm trying to call who was
working on Ultrasonics.

Sergei V. Fleytin writes:
> Hello, all.
> 
> As far as gui accessibility is concerned, I wonder if anyone on this
> list knows what happened with project called ultrasonix. If I remember
> correctly, the aim of that project was to provide a library
> independent screen reader for the x environment.
> 
> -- 
> With best regards, Sergei.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 

Janina Sajka				Phone: +1.202.494.7040
Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC	http://www.CapitalAccessibility.Com
Bringing the Owasys 22C screenless cell phone to the U.S. and Canada. Go to http://www.ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more.

Chair, Accessibility Workgroup		Free Standards Group (FSG)
janina@freestandards.org		http://a11y.org

Re: An idea,

[Janina Sajka]

Good point, Scott. Far too difficult, imho.

All I can answer by way of "Why?" is to point out that somebody had to
decide. And, in this instance, that somebody got insufficient input from
the greater "us." Clearly, they blew it. Output like:

Layer 0
Layer 1
Layer 2

Is so o o o unhelpful, when it could easily be very helpful.

Scott Berry writes:
> This really doesn't pertain to how Gnopernicus works.  But one 
> question I really would like to through around out here is why are 
> the keystrokes so difficult.  I know you can change key bindings in 
> Gnopernicus but it looked like a guy with 20 years of experience 
> would have to do it.  Maybe this has changed in recent versions but I 
> remember when I started using Gnopernicus wow!  Difficult to learn.
> 
> 
> 
> At 08:05 AM 7/27/2005, you wrote:
> 
> >Hi, Lorenzo:
> >
> >Others have responded with reference to what an X server does, and
> >doesn't do. I want to respond to two other particular points from your
> >message.
> >
> >Lorenzo Taylor writes:
> >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >> Hash: SHA1
> >>
> >>  ... Gnopernicus, for example, is using libraries that
> >> rely on certain information ent by the underlying application libraries.
> >> Unfortunately, this implementation causes only some apps to speak 
> >while others
> >> which use the same widgets but whose libraries don't send messages to the
> >> accessibility system will not speak.
> >
> >This is only partially correct. Any applications using those "same
> >widgets," as you put it, will speak. There are no exceptions.
> >
> >What causes them to not speak is that the properties required to make
> >them speak have not been supplied. So, Gnopernicus is getting an empty
> >string to renderd, which I suppose it dutifully renders as silence.
> >
> >Fortunately, these are open source applications and we don't need an
> >advocacy campaign to resolve these kinds of problems. A solid example of
> >this at work is the Gnome Volume Control. It was written with gtk2, but
> >the developers did not supply all the relevant property data. So, a
> >blind programmer came along one weekend, fixed it, and submitted the
> >patch which has shipped with the rest of Gnome Volume Control ever
> >since.
> >
> >Now the next point ...
> >
> >>  But it occurs to me that X is simply a
> >> protocol by which client applications send messages to a server 
> >which renders
> >> the proper text, windows, buttons and other widgets on the 
> >screen.  I believe
> >> that a screen reader that is an extension to the X server itself, 
> >(like Speakup
> >> is a set of patches to the kernel) would be a far better 
> >solution, as it could
> >> capture everything sent to the server and correctly translate it 
> >into humanly
> >> understandable speech output without relying on "accessibility 
> >messages" being
> >> sent from the client apps.
> >
> >
> >As other have pointed out, there's nothing to be gained by speaking RGB
> >values at some particular X-Y mouse coordinate location. But, I'm sure
> >that's not what you really intend. If I interpret you correctly you're
> >suggesting some kind of mechanism whereby a widget of some kind can be
> >reliably identified and assigned values that the screen reader can
> >henceforth utter. This is the approach with Windows OSM that has been
> >used over the past decade, and it's what allows screen readers, like
> >JFW, to develop interfaces based on scripts. For instance, Take widget
> >number 38,492 and call it "volume slider," and speak it before anything
> >else on screen when it shows up on screen, and facilitate the method
> >that will allow user to use up and down arrow to change it's value,
> >etc., etc.
> >
> >It is arguable, and has been cogently argued over the past 18 months,
> >that the failure of the original Desktop Accessibility Architecture
> >promoted by Sun and Gnome was to not provide such mechanisms. A great
> >part of the intent of the Orca screen reader proof of concept was to
> >provide exactly this kind of functionality. I believe this is now being
> >addressed, though I'm not aware any code for newer Gnopernicus (or post
> >Gnopernicus) readers is yet released. However, I do fully expect that
> >Gnopernicus is not the last word in desktop screen readers.
> >
> >                                Janina
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 

Janina Sajka				Phone: +1.202.494.7040
Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC	http://www.CapitalAccessibility.Com
Bringing the Owasys 22C screenless cell phone to the U.S. and Canada. Go to http://www.ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more.

Chair, Accessibility Workgroup		Free Standards Group (FSG)
janina@freestandards.org		http://a11y.org

remapping keys in Gnopernicus was Re: An idea,

[Kenny Hitt]

Hi.

On Thu, Jul 28, 2005 at 12:45:02AM +1000, Luke Yelavich wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 28, 2005 at 12:25:06AM EST, Scott Berry wrote:
> > This really doesn't pertain to how Gnopernicus works.  But one 
> > question I really would like to through around out here is why are 
> > the keystrokes so difficult.  I know you can change key bindings in 
> > Gnopernicus but it looked like a guy with 20 years of experience 
> > would have to do it.  Maybe this has changed in recent versions but I 
> > remember when I started using Gnopernicus wow!  Difficult to learn.
> 
> I haven't used Gnopernicus regularly for a while now, but I think it is 
> something to do with the various layers of functionality that 
> Gnopernicus has. For example, a mouse control layer, a magnification 
> control layer, a speech configuration layer, etc. I think the idea was 
> to keep as many keystrokes as possible on the numpad.
> 
> As you and others may have found out, this is hopeless when attempting 
> to use Gnopernicus on a laptop. One has to know how to access their 
> laptop numpad keys to use Gnopernicus, and then one still has to switch 
> back and forth between modes while working.
> 
> It would be worth while bringing this up on the gnome-accessibility 
> list, as others may have some ideas about all of this.
> -- 

Maybe I've used Gnopernicus for too long now, but it isn't all that
difficult.  Most commands needed by a totally blind person are on layer
0.

If you want to remap keys, go to the "command mapping"dialog  under the
preferences menu.
Use right arrow to move to the user defined keys tab, tab to the 
add button, select the key in the dialog, select the command in the list and you're done.
To delete a key from the keypad, goto the command mapping dialog under
the preferences menu, select the layers tab, select the key you want to
delete, tab to the delete button, and you're done.

Hope this helps.
          Kenny
	  

Re: remapping keys in Gnopernicus was Re: An idea,

[Farhan]

the funny thing is when, i used gnopernicus with my fc3 install.
festival was the slow. so I really couldn't get much use outa it. I
wonder if someone could help me find a better software synth that's
free? i looked for flite but couldn't find anything.

on7/27/2005Kenny Hitt said  
Hi.

On Thu, Jul 28, 2005 at 12:45:02AM +1000, Luke Yelavich wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 28, 2005 at 12:25:06AM EST, Scott Berry wrote:
> > This really doesn't pertain to how Gnopernicus works.  But one 
> > question I really would like to through around out here is why are 
> > the keystrokes so difficult.  I know you can change key bindings in 
> > Gnopernicus but it looked like a guy with 20 years of experience 
> > would have to do it.  Maybe this has changed in recent versions but I 
> > remember when I started using Gnopernicus wow!  Difficult to learn.
> 
> I haven't used Gnopernicus regularly for a while now, but I think it is 
> something to do with the various layers of functionality that 
> Gnopernicus has. For example, a mouse control layer, a magnification 
> control layer, a speech configuration layer, etc. I think the idea was 
> to keep as many keystrokes as possible on the numpad.
> 
> As you and others may have found out, this is hopeless when attempting 
> to use Gnopernicus on a laptop. One has to know how to access their 
> laptop numpad keys to use Gnopernicus, and then one still has to switch 
> back and forth between modes while working.
> 
> It would be worth while bringing this up on the gnome-accessibility 
> list, as others may have some ideas about all of this.
> -- 

Maybe I've used Gnopernicus for too long now, but it isn't all that
difficult.  Most commands needed by a totally blind person are on layer
0.

If you want to remap keys, go to the "command mapping"dialog  under the
preferences menu.
Use right arrow to move to the user defined keys tab, tab to the 
add button, select the key in the dialog, select the command in the list and you're done.
To delete a key from the keypad, goto the command mapping dialog under
the preferences menu, select the layers tab, select the key you want to
delete, tab to the delete button, and you're done.

Hope this helps.
          Kenny
	  

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Farhan
contact info.
Aim: and stoof
msn: i.am.Farhan@gmail.com
Jabber: Farhan@jabber.org

Re: remapping keys in Gnopernicus was Re: An idea,

[Kenny Hitt]

Hi.

Did you increase the rate for festival to the max?  The only other free
synth I know about is freeTTS.  It is java based.  I've never tried it
myself.  Festival is fine for my limited use of Gnopernicus and Gnome.
If you want to try freeTTS, you will need to ask a Fedora user how to
install and get it running.

Actually, since the last update of gnome-speech broke my festival, I just
use braille in Gnome.


          Kenny
	  
On Wed, Jul 27, 2005 at 11:37:47AM -0500, Farhan wrote:
> the funny thing is when, i used gnopernicus with my fc3 install.
> festival was the slow. so I really couldn't get much use outa it. I
> wonder if someone could help me find a better software synth that's
> free? i looked for flite but couldn't find anything.
> 
> on7/27/2005Kenny Hitt said  
> Hi.
> 
> On Thu, Jul 28, 2005 at 12:45:02AM +1000, Luke Yelavich wrote:
> > On Thu, Jul 28, 2005 at 12:25:06AM EST, Scott Berry wrote:
> > > This really doesn't pertain to how Gnopernicus works.  But one 
> > > question I really would like to through around out here is why are 
> > > the keystrokes so difficult.  I know you can change key bindings in 
> > > Gnopernicus but it looked like a guy with 20 years of experience 
> > > would have to do it.  Maybe this has changed in recent versions but I 
> > > remember when I started using Gnopernicus wow!  Difficult to learn.
> > 
> > I haven't used Gnopernicus regularly for a while now, but I think it is 
> > something to do with the various layers of functionality that 
> > Gnopernicus has. For example, a mouse control layer, a magnification 
> > control layer, a speech configuration layer, etc. I think the idea was 
> > to keep as many keystrokes as possible on the numpad.
> > 
> > As you and others may have found out, this is hopeless when attempting 
> > to use Gnopernicus on a laptop. One has to know how to access their 
> > laptop numpad keys to use Gnopernicus, and then one still has to switch 
> > back and forth between modes while working.
> > 
> > It would be worth while bringing this up on the gnome-accessibility 
> > list, as others may have some ideas about all of this.
> > -- 
> 
> Maybe I've used Gnopernicus for too long now, but it isn't all that
> difficult.  Most commands needed by a totally blind person are on layer
> 0.
> 
> If you want to remap keys, go to the "command mapping"dialog  under the
> preferences menu.
> Use right arrow to move to the user defined keys tab, tab to the 
> add button, select the key in the dialog, select the command in the list and you're done.
> To delete a key from the keypad, goto the command mapping dialog under
> the preferences menu, select the layers tab, select the key you want to
> delete, tab to the delete button, and you're done.
> 
> Hope this helps.
>           Kenny
> 	  
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> Farhan
> contact info.
> Aim: and stoof
> msn: i.am.Farhan@gmail.com
> Jabber: Farhan@jabber.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: An idea,

[Sean McMahon]

Don't know how you would make that work because I don't really understand X, but
your point about libs is well noted.  It's the same problem in other gui
environments.  If you don't use certain libs and certain classes, you don't have
accessibility.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lorenzo Taylor" <lorenzo@taylor.homelinux.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 8:41 PM
Subject: Re: An idea,


> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Here's another idea, maybe no one has thought of it yet, or maybe it is
> impossible to implement, but here it goes.
>
> It seems that the existing approaches for X screen readers should be taking a
> look at Speakup as a model.  Gnopernicus, for example, is using libraries that
> rely on certain information ent by the underlying application libraries.
> Unfortunately, this implementation causes only some apps to speak while others
> which use the same widgets but whose libraries don't send messages to the
> accessibility system will not speak.  But it occurs to me that X is simply a
> protocol by which client applications send messages to a server which renders
> the proper text, windows, buttons and other widgets on the screen.  I believe
> that a screen reader that is an extension to the X server itself, (like
Speakup
> is a set of patches to the kernel) would be a far better solution, as it could
> capture everything sent to the server and correctly translate it into humanly
> understandable speech output without relying on "accessibility messages" being
> sent from the client apps.
>
> Any thoughts on this would be welcome.
>
> Lorenzo
> - -- 
> - -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> Version: 3.12
> GCS d- s:+ a- C+++ UL++++ P+ L+++ E- W++ N o K- w---
> O M V- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP++ t++ 5+ X+ R tv-- b++ DI-- D+
> G e* h---- r+++ y+++
> - ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iD8DBQFC5wJhG9IpekrhBfIRAuhgAKDNMp7ThoUKPYqiWC+u8WB3RS0oKQCgulck
> 2KEeJCAheJfd5oqbbUgiM5k=
> =lUXl
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: An idea,

[Sean McMahon]

They really should have a device that can be trained to understand certain
shapes and just say what they are.  Some which you could point at any visual
serface.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@rednote.net>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 6:05 AM
Subject: Re: An idea,


> Hi, Lorenzo:
>
> Others have responded with reference to what an X server does, and
> doesn't do. I want to respond to two other particular points from your
> message.
>
> Lorenzo Taylor writes:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> >  ... Gnopernicus, for example, is using libraries that
> > rely on certain information ent by the underlying application libraries.
> > Unfortunately, this implementation causes only some apps to speak while
others
> > which use the same widgets but whose libraries don't send messages to the
> > accessibility system will not speak.
>
> This is only partially correct. Any applications using those "same
> widgets," as you put it, will speak. There are no exceptions.
>
> What causes them to not speak is that the properties required to make
> them speak have not been supplied. So, Gnopernicus is getting an empty
> string to renderd, which I suppose it dutifully renders as silence.
>
> Fortunately, these are open source applications and we don't need an
> advocacy campaign to resolve these kinds of problems. A solid example of
> this at work is the Gnome Volume Control. It was written with gtk2, but
> the developers did not supply all the relevant property data. So, a
> blind programmer came along one weekend, fixed it, and submitted the
> patch which has shipped with the rest of Gnome Volume Control ever
> since.
>
> Now the next point ...
>
> >  But it occurs to me that X is simply a
> > protocol by which client applications send messages to a server which
renders
> > the proper text, windows, buttons and other widgets on the screen.  I
believe
> > that a screen reader that is an extension to the X server itself, (like
Speakup
> > is a set of patches to the kernel) would be a far better solution, as it
could
> > capture everything sent to the server and correctly translate it into
humanly
> > understandable speech output without relying on "accessibility messages"
being
> > sent from the client apps.
>
>
> As other have pointed out, there's nothing to be gained by speaking RGB
> values at some particular X-Y mouse coordinate location. But, I'm sure
> that's not what you really intend. If I interpret you correctly you're
> suggesting some kind of mechanism whereby a widget of some kind can be
> reliably identified and assigned values that the screen reader can
> henceforth utter. This is the approach with Windows OSM that has been
> used over the past decade, and it's what allows screen readers, like
> JFW, to develop interfaces based on scripts. For instance, Take widget
> number 38,492 and call it "volume slider," and speak it before anything
> else on screen when it shows up on screen, and facilitate the method
> that will allow user to use up and down arrow to change it's value,
> etc., etc.
>
> It is arguable, and has been cogently argued over the past 18 months,
> that the failure of the original Desktop Accessibility Architecture
> promoted by Sun and Gnome was to not provide such mechanisms. A great
> part of the intent of the Orca screen reader proof of concept was to
> provide exactly this kind of functionality. I believe this is now being
> addressed, though I'm not aware any code for newer Gnopernicus (or post
> Gnopernicus) readers is yet released. However, I do fully expect that
> Gnopernicus is not the last word in desktop screen readers.
>
> Janina
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: An idea,

[Sean McMahon]

What's difficult about keystrokes in gnopernicus?  Are they something weird like
shift+alt+numpadinsert+f3 to open a file?
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Scott Berry" <scott@citlink.net>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 7:25 AM
Subject: Re: An idea,


> This really doesn't pertain to how Gnopernicus works.  But one
> question I really would like to through around out here is why are
> the keystrokes so difficult.  I know you can change key bindings in
> Gnopernicus but it looked like a guy with 20 years of experience
> would have to do it.  Maybe this has changed in recent versions but I
> remember when I started using Gnopernicus wow!  Difficult to learn.
>
>
>
> At 08:05 AM 7/27/2005, you wrote:
>
> >Hi, Lorenzo:
> >
> >Others have responded with reference to what an X server does, and
> >doesn't do. I want to respond to two other particular points from your
> >message.
> >
> >Lorenzo Taylor writes:
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > > Hash: SHA1
> > >
> > >  ... Gnopernicus, for example, is using libraries that
> > > rely on certain information ent by the underlying application libraries.
> > > Unfortunately, this implementation causes only some apps to speak
> > while others
> > > which use the same widgets but whose libraries don't send messages to the
> > > accessibility system will not speak.
> >
> >This is only partially correct. Any applications using those "same
> >widgets," as you put it, will speak. There are no exceptions.
> >
> >What causes them to not speak is that the properties required to make
> >them speak have not been supplied. So, Gnopernicus is getting an empty
> >string to renderd, which I suppose it dutifully renders as silence.
> >
> >Fortunately, these are open source applications and we don't need an
> >advocacy campaign to resolve these kinds of problems. A solid example of
> >this at work is the Gnome Volume Control. It was written with gtk2, but
> >the developers did not supply all the relevant property data. So, a
> >blind programmer came along one weekend, fixed it, and submitted the
> >patch which has shipped with the rest of Gnome Volume Control ever
> >since.
> >
> >Now the next point ...
> >
> > >  But it occurs to me that X is simply a
> > > protocol by which client applications send messages to a server
> > which renders
> > > the proper text, windows, buttons and other widgets on the
> > screen.  I believe
> > > that a screen reader that is an extension to the X server itself,
> > (like Speakup
> > > is a set of patches to the kernel) would be a far better
> > solution, as it could
> > > capture everything sent to the server and correctly translate it
> > into humanly
> > > understandable speech output without relying on "accessibility
> > messages" being
> > > sent from the client apps.
> >
> >
> >As other have pointed out, there's nothing to be gained by speaking RGB
> >values at some particular X-Y mouse coordinate location. But, I'm sure
> >that's not what you really intend. If I interpret you correctly you're
> >suggesting some kind of mechanism whereby a widget of some kind can be
> >reliably identified and assigned values that the screen reader can
> >henceforth utter. This is the approach with Windows OSM that has been
> >used over the past decade, and it's what allows screen readers, like
> >JFW, to develop interfaces based on scripts. For instance, Take widget
> >number 38,492 and call it "volume slider," and speak it before anything
> >else on screen when it shows up on screen, and facilitate the method
> >that will allow user to use up and down arrow to change it's value,
> >etc., etc.
> >
> >It is arguable, and has been cogently argued over the past 18 months,
> >that the failure of the original Desktop Accessibility Architecture
> >promoted by Sun and Gnome was to not provide such mechanisms. A great
> >part of the intent of the Orca screen reader proof of concept was to
> >provide exactly this kind of functionality. I believe this is now being
> >addressed, though I'm not aware any code for newer Gnopernicus (or post
> >Gnopernicus) readers is yet released. However, I do fully expect that
> >Gnopernicus is not the last word in desktop screen readers.
> >
> >                                 Janina
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: An idea,

[Laura Eaves]

Hi Sean -- Were you at the nfb convention when they demoed the pocket 
kurzweil reader? It was quite interesting -- kind of slow, but they have 
projections of just such a technology, that could be even pointed at objects 
like street signs for a blind person to read... But obviously it still has a 
long way to go for that to happen.
Anyway, it is supposed to be available for several thousand dollars sometime 
next year, so it will be interesting where it goes.
As for operating a GUI, however, I think such a thing would be essentially 
useless as you would really need to still get inside the software to track 
focus and other such things.
At best it would be usable marginally but far from practical.
Just some comments.
--le

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sean McMahon" <smcmahon@usgs.gov>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 2:12 PM
Subject: Re: An idea,


They really should have a device that can be trained to understand certain
shapes and just say what they are.  Some which you could point at any visual
serface.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@rednote.net>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 6:05 AM
Subject: Re: An idea,


> Hi, Lorenzo:
>
> Others have responded with reference to what an X server does, and
> doesn't do. I want to respond to two other particular points from your
> message.
>
> Lorenzo Taylor writes:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> >  ... Gnopernicus, for example, is using libraries that
> > rely on certain information ent by the underlying application libraries.
> > Unfortunately, this implementation causes only some apps to speak while
others
> > which use the same widgets but whose libraries don't send messages to 
> > the
> > accessibility system will not speak.
>
> This is only partially correct. Any applications using those "same
> widgets," as you put it, will speak. There are no exceptions.
>
> What causes them to not speak is that the properties required to make
> them speak have not been supplied. So, Gnopernicus is getting an empty
> string to renderd, which I suppose it dutifully renders as silence.
>
> Fortunately, these are open source applications and we don't need an
> advocacy campaign to resolve these kinds of problems. A solid example of
> this at work is the Gnome Volume Control. It was written with gtk2, but
> the developers did not supply all the relevant property data. So, a
> blind programmer came along one weekend, fixed it, and submitted the
> patch which has shipped with the rest of Gnome Volume Control ever
> since.
>
> Now the next point ...
>
> >  But it occurs to me that X is simply a
> > protocol by which client applications send messages to a server which
renders
> > the proper text, windows, buttons and other widgets on the screen.  I
believe
> > that a screen reader that is an extension to the X server itself, (like
Speakup
> > is a set of patches to the kernel) would be a far better solution, as it
could
> > capture everything sent to the server and correctly translate it into
humanly
> > understandable speech output without relying on "accessibility messages"
being
> > sent from the client apps.
>
>
> As other have pointed out, there's nothing to be gained by speaking RGB
> values at some particular X-Y mouse coordinate location. But, I'm sure
> that's not what you really intend. If I interpret you correctly you're
> suggesting some kind of mechanism whereby a widget of some kind can be
> reliably identified and assigned values that the screen reader can
> henceforth utter. This is the approach with Windows OSM that has been
> used over the past decade, and it's what allows screen readers, like
> JFW, to develop interfaces based on scripts. For instance, Take widget
> number 38,492 and call it "volume slider," and speak it before anything
> else on screen when it shows up on screen, and facilitate the method
> that will allow user to use up and down arrow to change it's value,
> etc., etc.
>
> It is arguable, and has been cogently argued over the past 18 months,
> that the failure of the original Desktop Accessibility Architecture
> promoted by Sun and Gnome was to not provide such mechanisms. A great
> part of the intent of the Orca screen reader proof of concept was to
> provide exactly this kind of functionality. I believe this is now being
> addressed, though I'm not aware any code for newer Gnopernicus (or post
> Gnopernicus) readers is yet released. However, I do fully expect that
> Gnopernicus is not the last word in desktop screen readers.
>
> Janina
>
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