* re: hello @ Jude DaShiell ` hello Jim Grimsby Jr. ` hello Sina Bahram 0 siblings, 2 replies; 9+ messages in thread From: Jude DaShiell @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: speakup Once you've paid for the doubletalk lt, you have at least two choices for screen readers that will run in dos. One of them provox was written by a speakup list member and is free for download. Then there's jaws for dos also free for download since it like provox are no longer supported. Provox though isopen source though. Jaws for dos has to be searched out on the ftp links. One more thing, if you have at least win2k you don't need win-eyes trial anything for speech. Thunder screen reader is available free for download for personal home users and nvda which recently had an update is also available free for download and it's open source. nvda is written in python and may get improved to where it can work with openoffice if the interest is there among the developers. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* RE: hello hello Jude DaShiell @ ` Jim Grimsby Jr. ` hello Glenn Ervin ` hello Sina Bahram 1 sibling, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread From: Jim Grimsby Jr. @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: 'Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.' Hi you can also use a free copy of slimware that is included in the window bridge 2000 package www.windowbridge.ws It supports many hardware devices and Braille displays under dos. As I said it is included in the window bridge 2000 package. Hth -----Original Message----- From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca] On Behalf Of Jude DaShiell Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2007 2:57 AM To: speakup@braille.uwo.ca Subject: re: hello Once you've paid for the doubletalk lt, you have at least two choices for screen readers that will run in dos. One of them provox was written by a speakup list member and is free for download. Then there's jaws for dos also free for download since it like provox are no longer supported. Provox though isopen source though. Jaws for dos has to be searched out on the ftp links. One more thing, if you have at least win2k you don't need win-eyes trial anything for speech. Thunder screen reader is available free for download for personal home users and nvda which recently had an update is also available free for download and it's open source. nvda is written in python and may get improved to where it can work with openoffice if the interest is there among the developers. _______________________________________________ Speakup mailing list Speakup@braille.uwo.ca http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.17/850 - Release Date: 6/15/2007 11:31 AM ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: hello ` hello Jim Grimsby Jr. @ ` Glenn Ervin 0 siblings, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread From: Glenn Ervin @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. Will this support software speech in DOS? Glenn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Grimsby Jr." <jimgrims@pacbell.net> To: "'Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.'" <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2007 5:16 AM Subject: RE: hello Hi you can also use a free copy of slimware that is included in the window bridge 2000 package www.windowbridge.ws It supports many hardware devices and Braille displays under dos. As I said it is included in the window bridge 2000 package. Hth -----Original Message----- From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca] On Behalf Of Jude DaShiell Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2007 2:57 AM To: speakup@braille.uwo.ca Subject: re: hello Once you've paid for the doubletalk lt, you have at least two choices for screen readers that will run in dos. One of them provox was written by a speakup list member and is free for download. Then there's jaws for dos also free for download since it like provox are no longer supported. Provox though isopen source though. Jaws for dos has to be searched out on the ftp links. One more thing, if you have at least win2k you don't need win-eyes trial anything for speech. Thunder screen reader is available free for download for personal home users and nvda which recently had an update is also available free for download and it's open source. nvda is written in python and may get improved to where it can work with openoffice if the interest is there among the developers. _______________________________________________ Speakup mailing list Speakup@braille.uwo.ca http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.17/850 - Release Date: 6/15/2007 11:31 AM _______________________________________________ Speakup mailing list Speakup@braille.uwo.ca http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* RE: hello hello Jude DaShiell ` hello Jim Grimsby Jr. @ ` Sina Bahram ` hello Gaijin ` pdf, javascript, and flash was hello C.M. Brannon 1 sibling, 2 replies; 9+ messages in thread From: Sina Bahram @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: 'Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.' Why? Javascript, pdf, and flash all have purely accessible ways of being accessed. PDF's especially have come a long way, flash is quickly catching up, and javascript only causes problems during certain events where keyboard focus is stolen away, which a lot of new frameworks have been modified not to do. Mainly, I'm thinking of ajax and web 2.0 interfaces. I actually think such technologies should be increased, or whatever is to replace them. Halting progress just because certain individuals which to keep using a console doesn't seem very practicle. For certain activities, such as filling out forms and things of that nature: an html equivalent to a PDF form is sometimes preferable for multiple reasons, not just accessibility, but in the general scheme of things; it's only getting better. Take care, Sina -----Original Message----- From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca] On Behalf Of Jude DaShiell Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2007 5:57 AM To: speakup@braille.uwo.ca Subject: re: hello Once you've paid for the doubletalk lt, you have at least two choices for screen readers that will run in dos. One of them provox was written by a speakup list member and is free for download. Then there's jaws for dos also free for download since it like provox are no longer supported. Provox though isopen source though. Jaws for dos has to be searched out on the ftp links. One more thing, if you have at least win2k you don't need win-eyes trial anything for speech. Thunder screen reader is available free for download for personal home users and nvda which recently had an update is also available free for download and it's open source. nvda is written in python and may get improved to where it can work with openoffice if the interest is there among the developers. _______________________________________________ Speakup mailing list Speakup@braille.uwo.ca http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: hello ` hello Sina Bahram @ ` Gaijin ` pdf, javascript, and flash was hello C.M. Brannon 1 sibling, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread From: Gaijin @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. na Bahram wrote: > Halting progress just because certain individuals which to keep > using a console doesn't seem very practicle. I'm not just a console user. Nor do I mind my display being fiddled with to any degree, as long as it's no more than my display. Ever take a look at Google Analytics? It's incredible just how much data they can get out of a web page. The only problem is all that data can !only! be used to exploit their customers by prying open their wallets and getting at whatever's inside. I can do without all the grifting. HTML alone should be enough to get our money. They certainly don't need to take control of my computer to spam the bejesus out of me. I know what I'm looking for to buy. I don't like having things shoved in my face. It's rude and just plain wrong, and if they want to do business that way, I'd rather be on the side of caution and shop anywhere else. Michael ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* pdf, javascript, and flash was Re: hello ` hello Sina Bahram ` hello Gaijin @ ` C.M. Brannon ` Doug Sutherland 1 sibling, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread From: C.M. Brannon @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@nc.rr.com> writes: > Javascript, pdf, and flash all have purely accessible ways of being > accessed. PDF's especially have come a long way, flash is quickly catching > up, and javascript only causes problems during certain events where keyboard ... > I actually think such technologies should be increased, or whatever is to JavaScript is a bad idea. Do you really want random people running random code on your box? Quite a few firewall administrators agree with me about this, because they don't allow it. Unfortunately, we have to live with it. PDF has one use-case IMHO: the creation of printable documents. I use it quite often for this purpose. However, storing documents in PDF is a step backward, rather than a step forward. Why? PDF is *not* a machine-readable format. HTML, ASCII, RTF, and even Microsoft Word are machine-readable. This does not hold for PDF and PostScript. Unfortunately, many people seem to use PDF for document storage, even though it is not suited to this task. As for Flash, I cannot say much about it. From what I know, its purpose is the transmission of animated movies. I doubt those are terribly accessible. Regardless, sending me movies that I cannot see is a waste of my bandwidth. Finally, Flash is a proprietary format. Why should I care about it? -- Chris ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: pdf, javascript, and flash was Re: hello ` pdf, javascript, and flash was hello C.M. Brannon @ ` Doug Sutherland ` Glenn Ervin ` Michael Whapples 0 siblings, 2 replies; 9+ messages in thread From: Doug Sutherland @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. Javascript really is a bad idea as Chris stated, and so is flash. Both can be opening connections to anywhere without your knowledge. They are not secure, period. Many sites will not work properly with browsers like links even though they have javascript support. The adobe situation is far worse. It is becoming an entirely different platform on its own. Its almost like windows, in fact it is competition to windows, it's a challenge to own desktop. Look what google does, it can convert pdf to html but NOT text, its graphical. Its a total mess. It's huge software and is buggy. I could go on and on about these three evil bits of software. But fundamentally they all assume I am on a PC, also on windows, and desktop windows. This is not my idea of information being free. The future does not lie in PCs. It will be portable devices. None of them handle these types of "pages" properly. Web sites should be standardized in such a way that they are not form fit for PCs. There are some that support mini version pages like WAP format but that's pretty lame. The information should be just information, and the protocols should be standard and generic such that ANY device or process can read them and re-format them any way necessary. This will never happen with javascript, flash, or pdf. All of the above are really used because of the silly need to make the web more like TV than information, with all kinds of dizzying adverts, and the use of them is usually ONLY to make the site look pretty. Wrong reasons to diverge from the original idea, that there should be a set of standards that are globally accessible. I believe in accessibility beyond just for what most people think, it should allow not only different devices or browsers, it shoul allow different modalities. The CONTROLS in particular should not assume that there is keyboard and mouse. Some very serious work needs to be done in accessibility standards, and it's not headed in the right direction. -- Doug ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: pdf, javascript, and flash was Re: hello ` Doug Sutherland @ ` Glenn Ervin ` Michael Whapples 1 sibling, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread From: Glenn Ervin @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. I would agree with the below comments, except I try to keep in mind, that the more we regulate the Internet, the less freedoms we will have with it. Glenn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Sutherland" <doug@proficio.ca> To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca> Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2007 1:10 PM Subject: Re: pdf, javascript, and flash was Re: hello Javascript really is a bad idea as Chris stated, and so is flash. Both can be opening connections to anywhere without your knowledge. They are not secure, period. Many sites will not work properly with browsers like links even though they have javascript support. The adobe situation is far worse. It is becoming an entirely different platform on its own. Its almost like windows, in fact it is competition to windows, it's a challenge to own desktop. Look what google does, it can convert pdf to html but NOT text, its graphical. Its a total mess. It's huge software and is buggy. I could go on and on about these three evil bits of software. But fundamentally they all assume I am on a PC, also on windows, and desktop windows. This is not my idea of information being free. The future does not lie in PCs. It will be portable devices. None of them handle these types of "pages" properly. Web sites should be standardized in such a way that they are not form fit for PCs. There are some that support mini version pages like WAP format but that's pretty lame. The information should be just information, and the protocols should be standard and generic such that ANY device or process can read them and re-format them any way necessary. This will never happen with javascript, flash, or pdf. All of the above are really used because of the silly need to make the web more like TV than information, with all kinds of dizzying adverts, and the use of them is usually ONLY to make the site look pretty. Wrong reasons to diverge from the original idea, that there should be a set of standards that are globally accessible. I believe in accessibility beyond just for what most people think, it should allow not only different devices or browsers, it shoul allow different modalities. The CONTROLS in particular should not assume that there is keyboard and mouse. Some very serious work needs to be done in accessibility standards, and it's not headed in the right direction. -- Doug _______________________________________________ Speakup mailing list Speakup@braille.uwo.ca http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: pdf, javascript, and flash was Re: hello ` Doug Sutherland ` Glenn Ervin @ ` Michael Whapples 1 sibling, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread From: Michael Whapples @ UTC (permalink / raw) To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. While I think things like javascript, flash PDF and some other technologies are use inappropriately, I think certain ones, thinking of PDF in particular here, do have there place. Extending on what I mean about PDF, if the full specifications were followed properly, and usually this is not done, the situation regarding PDF should be alot better than it is for us. Unfortunately, software, both the readers and the writers don't follow this wonderfully, and for the creating software, if it doesn't follow the specification properly then no matter how good the reader is the output won't be good (how many cases can you think of finding untagged PDF), but in most cases the reader isn't realyy up to it fully either. As I understand it, PDF and post script is aimed at printing (or the layout), so yes it can be appropriate to post PDF on the internet if you expect the user to print it off, but if there is expected online viewing, then there are certainly more appropriate formats for that (I am thinking of those scientific papers I would have found useful for my physics that were online in PDF although mathml is more accessible). While technology has done alot for me, I do get concerned by various developments and if theyh are going to create more problems than they will solve (in my case), eg.e-books and all the security they are building in to prevent users doing anything to it, how will this impact on my ability to convert it to a format suitable for me, javascript on websites (particularly when not needed, sometimes even used when a link would do the same), etc. From Michael Whapples On Sat, 2007-06-16 at 13:10 -0500, Doug Sutherland wrote: > Javascript really is a bad idea as Chris stated, and so is flash. > Both can be opening connections to anywhere without your > knowledge. They are not secure, period. Many sites will not > work properly with browsers like links even though they have > javascript support. > > The adobe situation is far worse. It is becoming an entirely > different platform on its own. Its almost like windows, in fact > it is competition to windows, it's a challenge to own desktop. > Look what google does, it can convert pdf to html but NOT > text, its graphical. Its a total mess. It's huge software and is > buggy. > > I could go on and on about these three evil bits of software. > > But fundamentally they all assume I am on a PC, also on > windows, and desktop windows. This is not my idea of > information being free. The future does not lie in PCs. It > will be portable devices. None of them handle these types > of "pages" properly. Web sites should be standardized in > such a way that they are not form fit for PCs. There are > some that support mini version pages like WAP format > but that's pretty lame. The information should be just > information, and the protocols should be standard and > generic such that ANY device or process can read them > and re-format them any way necessary. This will never > happen with javascript, flash, or pdf. > > All of the above are really used because of the silly need > to make the web more like TV than information, with > all kinds of dizzying adverts, and the use of them is usually > ONLY to make the site look pretty. Wrong reasons to > diverge from the original idea, that there should be a set > of standards that are globally accessible. > > I believe in accessibility beyond just for what most > people think, it should allow not only different devices > or browsers, it shoul allow different modalities. The > CONTROLS in particular should not assume that > there is keyboard and mouse. Some very serious work > needs to be done in accessibility standards, and it's > not headed in the right direction. > > -- Doug > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
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hello Jude DaShiell
` hello Jim Grimsby Jr.
` hello Glenn Ervin
` hello Sina Bahram
` hello Gaijin
` pdf, javascript, and flash was hello C.M. Brannon
` Doug Sutherland
` Glenn Ervin
` Michael Whapples
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