An official slightly off topic anouncement

An official slightly off topic anouncement

[Keith Hinton]

I would like to announce that today I have become offically anti-Microsoft, and Anti-Microsoft Windows, (otherwise refered to as Windblows.)
I know the choice was a long time coming;but I think that Linux holds more anyways.
I've had my Linux box up for over 1 day now, and it hasn't eaven broke. Windows, has, and well..
Anyways, I hope you all have a great day, take care.
Regards- 

Keith.
Website (Soon to be placed on Linux)
www.KeithNet.DynDNS.org
MSN Messenger:
keithint37@hotmail.com

Skype (Requires Authorization)
skypedude1234

Re: An official slightly off topic anouncement

[ace]

I hope that you understand that this list does not exist as an 
anti-Microsoft hangout.
Keith Hinton wrote:
> I would like to announce that today I have become offically anti-Microsoft, and Anti-Microsoft Windows, (otherwise refered to as Windblows.)
> I know the choice was a long time coming;but I think that Linux holds more anyways.
> I've had my Linux box up for over 1 day now, and it hasn't eaven broke. Windows, has, and well..
> Anyways, I hope you all have a great day, take care.
> Regards- 
>
> Keith.
> Website (Soon to be placed on Linux)
> www.KeithNet.DynDNS.org
> MSN Messenger:
> keithint37@hotmail.com
>
> Skype (Requires Authorization)
> skypedude1234
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
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ace
Network Administrator of
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http://www.talkingirc.net

Re: An official slightly off topic anouncement

[Gregory Nowak]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Well, if this spawns a microsoft bashing thread on this list, it
wouldn't be the first time, and it probably won't be the last.

Besides, although we don't come right out and say it, I personally am
of the opinion that most, if not all gnu/linux users in the world, and
on this list, are
anti-microsoft. After all, having been a user of windblows, and
gnu/linux for a few years now, I can't honestly say that I think
people are switching from windblows to gnu/linux, because gnu/linux is
easier to use than windows is. For anybody else who has used both
operating systems for a good while, and is tempted to disagree with
that, think back on your first time compiling a customized linux
kernel, or on the steps one has to go through to build a piece of
software from source , or better yet, on how involved building a
gentoo, or a linux-from-scratch system is.

Greg


On Wed, Feb 21, 2007 at 08:27:32PM -0500, ace wrote:
> I hope that you understand that this list does not exist as an 
> anti-Microsoft hangout.

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Re: An official slightly off topic anouncement

[Sean McMahon]

Verry true.  Although I think some of difficulties a newby encounters with lynux 
is because they often build there own system from scratch whereas they probably 
got their winblows system from a venter who just "made it work".  I think if the 
newby would have the same difficulty building windows systems if they could. 
Why else does lynux run on more platforms?
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gregory Nowak" <greg@romuald.net.eu.org>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: An official slightly off topic anouncement


> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Well, if this spawns a microsoft bashing thread on this list, it
> wouldn't be the first time, and it probably won't be the last.
>
> Besides, although we don't come right out and say it, I personally am
> of the opinion that most, if not all gnu/linux users in the world, and
> on this list, are
> anti-microsoft. After all, having been a user of windblows, and
> gnu/linux for a few years now, I can't honestly say that I think
> people are switching from windblows to gnu/linux, because gnu/linux is
> easier to use than windows is. For anybody else who has used both
> operating systems for a good while, and is tempted to disagree with
> that, think back on your first time compiling a customized linux
> kernel, or on the steps one has to go through to build a piece of
> software from source , or better yet, on how involved building a
> gentoo, or a linux-from-scratch system is.
>
> Greg
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 21, 2007 at 08:27:32PM -0500, ace wrote:
>> I hope that you understand that this list does not exist as an
>> anti-Microsoft hangout.
>
> - -- 
> web site: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org
> gpg public key: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org/pubkey.asc
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>
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> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iD8DBQFF3R0e7s9z/XlyUyARAscYAKDI6syWDH02JA4I/uL7vNo0D6xC3ACeK7cK
> 9WUPz5LurvCAqcMBlq+S1Nk=
> =4rap
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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Re: An official slightly off topic anouncement

[John Heim]

From: "Gregory Nowak" <greg@romuald.net.eu.org>
> on this list, are
> anti-microsoft. After all, having been a user of windblows, and
> gnu/linux for a few years now, I can't honestly say that I think
> people are switching from windblows to gnu/linux, because gnu/linux is
> easier to use than windows is.

I made this same point on the blinux list a while ago and sparked quite a 
controversy. I believe anyone getting into linux should prepare themselves 
for a steep learning curve. But it pays off in the end. In fact, I've  been 
advising my blind computer nerd friends to get into linux as a form of job 
security.

> For anybody else who has used both
> operating systems for a good while, and is tempted to disagree with
> that, think back on your first time compiling a customized linux
> kernel, or on the steps one has to go through to build a piece of
> software from source , or better yet, on how involved building a
> gentoo, or a linux-from-scratch system is.

Yeah, but you can't compile a custom kernel at all for Windows. Mostly, you 
can't compile software either. You get what you get.

So this is really the #1 difference between linux and Windows.  In linux, 
you can do just about anything you can do with a computer but you're 
expected to learn how. With Windows, the ideal situation is for you to never 
have to read the documentation. Windows users want to just install and go. 
With linux, we give up intuitiveness for being able to make the thing do 
exactly what we want.

Actually, I think the combination of both works really well. I use Windows 
as my desktop environment. But i do all my actual work on linux. For 
example, I have this elaborate system for recording the sound track of TV 
shows. I have a script that checks the schedule of my local PBS affiliate 
searching for my favorite shows, Nova, American Experience, etc. If it finds 
them, it writes the show and time it will be on to a file. Then there is a 
cron job that runs sox to record each show . I then listen to them on my 
Windows machine by double clicking on them on my network drive.

Here at the Math Department of the U of Wisconsin, we have dhcp, dns, 
ldaphttp mysql,  , and imap servers all running on linux.  I manage all 
these things via my Windows desktop.

Re: An official slightly off topic anouncement

[Gene Collins]

/so why do we care?  You wanna support Bill, then who are we to argue? 
On the other hand, you could install Ubuntu, and go for the gnome
desktop environment and not pay the Freedom Scientific folks an arm and
a leg.  You're right, Linux is a steeper learning curve, but in the end,
it makes you a more knowledgeable and powerful computer user.  Some
folks like myself have to support Windows , because that is what the
University runs on, but give me a choice, and Linux wins hands down.

For some folks, a gui interface is the way to go, but I started out in
CP/m and DOS, so I'm a command line junkie at heart.  Even the editor I
use, MicroEmacs is very much like the Mince editor I first used under
CP/m.  So pick what suits you and pay for it, or not, as the case may
be.  Linux kind of separates the men from the boys so to speak.  It
demands more of it's users, it gives much more in return.

Gene

>From: "Gregory Nowak" <greg@romuald.net.eu.org>
>> on this list, are
>> anti-microsoft. After all, having been a user of windblows, and
>> gnu/linux for a few years now, I can't honestly say that I think
>> people are switching from windblows to gnu/linux, because gnu/linux is
>> easier to use than windows is.
>
>I made this same point on the blinux list a while ago and sparked quite a 
>controversy. I believe anyone getting into linux should prepare themselves 
>for a steep learning curve. But it pays off in the end. In fact, I've  been 
>advising my blind computer nerd friends to get into linux as a form of job 
>security.
>
>> For anybody else who has used both
>> operating systems for a good while, and is tempted to disagree with
>> that, think back on your first time compiling a customized linux
>> kernel, or on the steps one has to go through to build a piece of
>> software from source , or better yet, on how involved building a
>> gentoo, or a linux-from-scratch system is.
>
>Yeah, but you can't compile a custom kernel at all for Windows. Mostly, you 
>can't compile software either. You get what you get.
>
>So this is really the #1 difference between linux and Windows.  In linux, 
>you can do just about anything you can do with a computer but you're 
>expected to learn how. With Windows, the ideal situation is for you to never 
>have to read the documentation. Windows users want to just install and go. 
>With linux, we give up intuitiveness for being able to make the thing do 
>exactly what we want.
>
>Actually, I think the combination of both works really well. I use Windows 
>as my desktop environment. But i do all my actual work on linux. For 
>example, I have this elaborate system for recording the sound track of TV 
>shows. I have a script that checks the schedule of my local PBS affiliate 
>searching for my favorite shows, Nova, American Experience, etc. If it finds 
>them, it writes the show and time it will be on to a file. Then there is a 
>cron job that runs sox to record each show . I then listen to them on my 
>Windows machine by double clicking on them on my network drive.
>
>Here at the Math Department of the U of Wisconsin, we have dhcp, dns, 
>ldaphttp mysql,  , and imap servers all running on linux.  I manage all 
>these things via my Windows desktop.
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: An official slightly off topic anouncement

[Gregory Nowak]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Some people seem to be misinterpreting my original comments. The point
I was getting at, was that people were switching from windblows to
gnu/linux because they got tired of microsoft, and all that goes along
with that, and not because gnu/linux is easier to use then
windblows. From a couple of messages I've seen on this list, some
people seem to have taken easier, and substituted it with
"better". Just because windows is easier to use, doesn't mean that
it's better in my opinion. However, that is also just my opinion. As
has been pointed out, the ability to effectively use gnu/linux
separates the men from the boys. As we've also seen on this list in
the past, more then once, some people after struggling with gnu/linux
for a long while decide that windows is better for them, and that they
would rather pay out to all the greedy corporations, and use
windows exclusively. So, the question of which is better is a personal opinion,
and I will not argue that point. Now, if the word superior had been
introduced into this discussion, I would definitely argue that in
favor of gnu/linux.  

As I've said though, I believe personally that gnu/linux is the better
os, and if I have an option of doing something in either windows or
gnu/linux with equal accessibility, I'll choose to do it in gnu/linux
hands down.

Greg


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Re: An official slightly off topic anouncement

[Albert E. Sten-Clanton]

I am indeed trying to learn Linux because of Microshaft and its non-free software buddies.  This partly arises from my notions of freedom, which indeed have been influence by the "free software" movement, as I understand it.  Derivative, perhaps, but also important in its own right, is the belief that, if I work long and hard enough, I can create the software I want, and need not settle for what's out there.

That said, I do not regard it as a virtue that using Linux may separate "the men from the boys."  In order for Linux or any other "free software" to do the job that Richard Stallman and his ilk have in mind, it will have to become friendly to the user whose love of technical knowledge analogizes to the difference between the temperature of liquid helium and absolute zero.  More precisely, there will have to be that choice, while propellerheads and propellerhead wannabees retain the option of doing all sorts of esoteric stuff.  My impression is that Fedora, Ubuntu, and sSuse are aiming somewhat in that direction, and there may be other variants.  For my part, I only wish this apparently increasing friendliness was at least optionally text-based:  I gather that, even with best efforts by Willie Walker and others, blind people still can make better use of the Windblows gui than any Linux gui.

Just my notions!

Al
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gregory Nowak" <greg@romuald.net.eu.org>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: An official slightly off topic anouncement


> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Some people seem to be misinterpreting my original comments. The point
> I was getting at, was that people were switching from windblows to
> gnu/linux because they got tired of microsoft, and all that goes along
> with that, and not because gnu/linux is easier to use then
> windblows. From a couple of messages I've seen on this list, some
> people seem to have taken easier, and substituted it with
> "better". Just because windows is easier to use, doesn't mean that
> it's better in my opinion. However, that is also just my opinion. As
> has been pointed out, the ability to effectively use gnu/linux
> separates the men from the boys. As we've also seen on this list in
> the past, more then once, some people after struggling with gnu/linux
> for a long while decide that windows is better for them, and that they
> would rather pay out to all the greedy corporations, and use
> windows exclusively. So, the question of which is better is a personal opinion,
> and I will not argue that point. Now, if the word superior had been
> introduced into this discussion, I would definitely argue that in
> favor of gnu/linux.  
> 
> As I've said though, I believe personally that gnu/linux is the better
> os, and if I have an option of doing something in either windows or
> gnu/linux with equal accessibility, I'll choose to do it in gnu/linux
> hands down.
> 
> Greg
> 
> 
> - -- 
> web site: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org
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Re: An official slightly off topic anouncement

[Kenny Hitt]

Hi.

I haven't used Windows in 6 years, but I now use Gnome full time.  I
like having access to the GUI and my console apps in the same environment.  Orca does almost as well as speakup for accessing console apps in Gnome-terminal.
Thanks to features of Gnome-terminal, I have better use of console apps than if I ran several virtual consoles.
Gnome accessibility is improving much faster than Windows ever did.
Remember, The gnome accessibility project is only 4 years old.  The
project started with a complete rewrite of Gnome libs and apps.

          Kenny

On Fri, Feb 23, 2007 at 05:43:50PM -0500, Albert E. Sten-Clanton wrote:
> 
> That said, I do not regard it as a virtue that using Linux may separate "the men from the boys."  In order for Linux or any other "free software" to do the job that Richard Stallman and his ilk have in mind, it will have to become friendly to the user whose love of technical knowledge analogizes to the difference between the temperature of liquid helium and absolute zero.  More precisely, there will have to be that choice, while propellerheads and propellerhead wannabees retain the option of doing all sorts of esoteric stuff.  My impression is that Fedora, Ubuntu, and sSuse are aiming somewhat in that direction, and there may be other variants.  For my part, I only wish this apparently increasing friendliness was at least optionally text-based:  I gather that, even with best efforts by Willie Walker and others, blind people still can make better use of the Windblows gui than any Linux gui.
> 
> Just my notions!

Re: An official slightly off topic anouncement

[Gregory Nowak]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Fri, Feb 23, 2007 at 05:19:12PM -0600, Kenny Hitt wrote:
> Gnome accessibility is improving much faster than Windows ever did.
> Remember, The gnome accessibility project is only 4 years old.  The
> project started with a complete rewrite of Gnome libs and apps.
> 

Which yet again highlights one of the advantages of the free/open source
models, as opposed to the closed model of software development, though
the free model is more advantageous than the open model.

Greg




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Re: An official slightly off topic anouncement

[Ned Granic]

Hey guys,

You talk about graphical user interface (GUI) in Linux being that 
accessible?
To be honest with you, I have never succeeded in setting up such a Linux GUI 
box.
I was not even able to compile the kernel under speakup and makemenu.
Definitely I am impressed with speakup and Debian in console, but w/o being 
able to build a workable GUI system up, I am still using windows for things 
like internet browsing, email, entertainment, scanning of books, and office 
apps.
Now, you experienced wolves of the Linux universe, enlighten me with 
instructions where to go and get what I need to replace the "windblows" 
altogether with a Debian, Suse, Ubuntu... you name it

Many thanks in advance!

                    Ned
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gregory Nowak" <greg@romuald.net.eu.org>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 6:49 PM
Subject: Re: An official slightly off topic anouncement


> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Fri, Feb 23, 2007 at 05:19:12PM -0600, Kenny Hitt wrote:
>> Gnome accessibility is improving much faster than Windows ever did.
>> Remember, The gnome accessibility project is only 4 years old.  The
>> project started with a complete rewrite of Gnome libs and apps.
>>
>
> Which yet again highlights one of the advantages of the free/open source
> models, as opposed to the closed model of software development, though
> the free model is more advantageous than the open model.
>
> Greg
>
>
>
>
> - -- 
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> gpg public key: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org/pubkey.asc
> skype: gregn1
> (authorization required, add me to your contacts list first)
>
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Re[2]: An official slightly off topic anouncement

[Farhan]

The question I have for you, is how do you listen to music, or what not, and do your work in the gnome system and the terminal at the same time?
On 2/23/2007 at 20:20 Kenny Hitt said
Hi.

I haven't used Windows in 6 years, but I now use Gnome full time.  I
like having access to the GUI and my console apps in the same environment.  Orca does almost as well as speakup for accessing console apps in Gnome-terminal.
Thanks to features of Gnome-terminal, I have better use of console apps than if I ran several virtual consoles.
Gnome accessibility is improving much faster than Windows ever did.
Remember, The gnome accessibility project is only 4 years old.  The
project started with a complete rewrite of Gnome libs and apps.

          Kenny

On Fri, Feb 23, 2007 at 05:43:50PM -0500, Albert E. Sten-Clanton wrote:
> 
> That said, I do not regard it as a virtue that using Linux may separate "the men from the boys."  In order for Linux or any other "free software" to do the job that Richard Stallman and his ilk have in mind, it will have to become friendly to the user whose love of technical knowledge analogizes to the difference between the temperature of liquid helium and absolute zero.  More precisely, there will have to be that choice, while propellerheads and propellerhead wannabees retain the option of doing all sorts of esoteric stuff.  My impression is that Fedora, Ubuntu, and sSuse are aiming somewhat in that direction, and there may be other variants.  For my part, I only wish this apparently increasing friendliness was at least optionally text-based:  I gather that, even with best efforts by Willie Walker and others, blind people still can make better use of the Windblows gui than any Linux gui.
> 
> Just my notions!

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: An official slightly off topic anouncement

[Kenny Hitt]

Hi.

On Fri, Feb 23, 2007 at 08:21:40PM -0600, Farhan wrote:
> The question I have for you, is how do you listen to music, or what not, and do your work in the gnome system and the terminal at the same time?

I use a sblive as my default sound card, so multiple sound sources
aren't a problem.  Also, both rhythmbox and totem can control there
volume independent of the the default PCM volume, so I set the output of
the music lower than the synth or system sounds.

          Kenny

Re: An official slightly off topic anouncement

[John Heim]

We care because often people get into linux expecting it to be like Windows. 
Possibly, if these people are fore-warned, they will be less likely to give 
up.  That's been my experience anyway.

I think sometimes in their enthusiasm for linux,  linux nerds sell it as 
being easier to use than Windows. I don't think it ever gets to that point 
no matter how well you know linux and speakup.  And if all you want out of 
your computer is for it to work with a minimum of fuss, then maybe you had 
better stick to Windows.





----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gene Collins" <collins@gene3.ait.iastate.edu>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 9:31 AM
Subject: Re: An official slightly off topic anouncement


> /so why do we care?  You wanna support Bill, then who are we to argue?
> On the other hand, you could install Ubuntu, and go for the gnome
> desktop environment and not pay the Freedom Scientific folks an arm and
> a leg.  You're right, Linux is a steeper learning curve, but in the end,
> it makes you a more knowledgeable and powerful computer user.  Some
> folks like myself have to support Windows , because that is what the
> University runs on, but give me a choice, and Linux wins hands down.
>
> For some folks, a gui interface is the way to go, but I started out in
> CP/m and DOS, so I'm a command line junkie at heart.  Even the editor I
> use, MicroEmacs is very much like the Mince editor I first used under
> CP/m.  So pick what suits you and pay for it, or not, as the case may
> be.  Linux kind of separates the men from the boys so to speak.  It
> demands more of it's users, it gives much more in return.
>
> Gene
>
>>From: "Gregory Nowak" <greg@romuald.net.eu.org>
>>> on this list, are
>>> anti-microsoft. After all, having been a user of windblows, and
>>> gnu/linux for a few years now, I can't honestly say that I think
>>> people are switching from windblows to gnu/linux, because gnu/linux is
>>> easier to use than windows is.
>>
>>I made this same point on the blinux list a while ago and sparked quite a
>>controversy. I believe anyone getting into linux should prepare themselves
>>for a steep learning curve. But it pays off in the end. In fact, I've 
>>been
>>advising my blind computer nerd friends to get into linux as a form of job
>>security.
>>
>>> For anybody else who has used both
>>> operating systems for a good while, and is tempted to disagree with
>>> that, think back on your first time compiling a customized linux
>>> kernel, or on the steps one has to go through to build a piece of
>>> software from source , or better yet, on how involved building a
>>> gentoo, or a linux-from-scratch system is.
>>
>>Yeah, but you can't compile a custom kernel at all for Windows. Mostly, 
>>you
>>can't compile software either. You get what you get.
>>
>>So this is really the #1 difference between linux and Windows.  In linux,
>>you can do just about anything you can do with a computer but you're
>>expected to learn how. With Windows, the ideal situation is for you to 
>>never
>>have to read the documentation. Windows users want to just install and go.
>>With linux, we give up intuitiveness for being able to make the thing do
>>exactly what we want.
>>
>>Actually, I think the combination of both works really well. I use Windows
>>as my desktop environment. But i do all my actual work on linux. For
>>example, I have this elaborate system for recording the sound track of TV
>>shows. I have a script that checks the schedule of my local PBS affiliate
>>searching for my favorite shows, Nova, American Experience, etc. If it 
>>finds
>>them, it writes the show and time it will be on to a file. Then there is a
>>cron job that runs sox to record each show . I then listen to them on my
>>Windows machine by double clicking on them on my network drive.
>>
>>Here at the Math Department of the U of Wisconsin, we have dhcp, dns,
>>ldaphttp mysql,  , and imap servers all running on linux.  I manage all
>>these things via my Windows desktop.
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Speakup mailing list
>>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> 

Re: An official slightly off topic anouncement

[Gene Collins]

Linux is not for everyone, that's true.  My point was, pick what works
for you and use it.

Gene

>We care because often people get into linux expecting it to be like Windows. 
>Possibly, if these people are fore-warned, they will be less likely to give 
>up.  That's been my experience anyway.
>
>I think sometimes in their enthusiasm for linux,  linux nerds sell it as 
>being easier to use than Windows. I don't think it ever gets to that point 
>no matter how well you know linux and speakup.  And if all you want out of 
>your computer is for it to work with a minimum of fuss, then maybe you had 
>better stick to Windows.
>
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Gene Collins" <collins@gene3.ait.iastate.edu>
>To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 9:31 AM
>Subject: Re: An official slightly off topic anouncement
>
>
>> /so why do we care?  You wanna support Bill, then who are we to argue?
>> On the other hand, you could install Ubuntu, and go for the gnome
>> desktop environment and not pay the Freedom Scientific folks an arm and
>> a leg.  You're right, Linux is a steeper learning curve, but in the end,
>> it makes you a more knowledgeable and powerful computer user.  Some
>> folks like myself have to support Windows , because that is what the
>> University runs on, but give me a choice, and Linux wins hands down.
>>
>> For some folks, a gui interface is the way to go, but I started out in
>> CP/m and DOS, so I'm a command line junkie at heart.  Even the editor I
>> use, MicroEmacs is very much like the Mince editor I first used under
>> CP/m.  So pick what suits you and pay for it, or not, as the case may
>> be.  Linux kind of separates the men from the boys so to speak.  It
>> demands more of it's users, it gives much more in return.
>>
>> Gene
>>
>>>From: "Gregory Nowak" <greg@romuald.net.eu.org>
>>>> on this list, are
>>>> anti-microsoft. After all, having been a user of windblows, and
>>>> gnu/linux for a few years now, I can't honestly say that I think
>>>> people are switching from windblows to gnu/linux, because gnu/linux is
>>>> easier to use than windows is.
>>>
>>>I made this same point on the blinux list a while ago and sparked quite a
>>>controversy. I believe anyone getting into linux should prepare themselves
>>>for a steep learning curve. But it pays off in the end. In fact, I've 
>>>been
>>>advising my blind computer nerd friends to get into linux as a form of job
>>>security.
>>>
>>>> For anybody else who has used both
>>>> operating systems for a good while, and is tempted to disagree with
>>>> that, think back on your first time compiling a customized linux
>>>> kernel, or on the steps one has to go through to build a piece of
>>>> software from source , or better yet, on how involved building a
>>>> gentoo, or a linux-from-scratch system is.
>>>
>>>Yeah, but you can't compile a custom kernel at all for Windows. Mostly, 
>>>you
>>>can't compile software either. You get what you get.
>>>
>>>So this is really the #1 difference between linux and Windows.  In linux,
>>>you can do just about anything you can do with a computer but you're
>>>expected to learn how. With Windows, the ideal situation is for you to 
>>>never
>>>have to read the documentation. Windows users want to just install and go.
>>>With linux, we give up intuitiveness for being able to make the thing do
>>>exactly what we want.
>>>
>>>Actually, I think the combination of both works really well. I use Windows
>>>as my desktop environment. But i do all my actual work on linux. For
>>>example, I have this elaborate system for recording the sound track of TV
>>>shows. I have a script that checks the schedule of my local PBS affiliate
>>>searching for my favorite shows, Nova, American Experience, etc. If it 
>>>finds
>>>them, it writes the show and time it will be on to a file. Then there is a
>>>cron job that runs sox to record each show . I then listen to them on my
>>>Windows machine by double clicking on them on my network drive.
>>>
>>>Here at the Math Department of the U of Wisconsin, we have dhcp, dns,
>>>ldaphttp mysql,  , and imap servers all running on linux.  I manage all
>>>these things via my Windows desktop.
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Speakup mailing list
>>>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>>>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Speakup mailing list
>> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>>
>> 
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: An official slightly off topic anouncement

[Janina Sajka]

I find it hard to think of any OS that crashes daily, or even more
frequently, as "working." I wouldn't hire that kind of worker.

Janina

John Heim writes:
> We care because often people get into linux expecting it to be like Windows. 
> Possibly, if these people are fore-warned, they will be less likely to give 
> up.  That's been my experience anyway.
> 
> I think sometimes in their enthusiasm for linux,  linux nerds sell it as 
> being easier to use than Windows. I don't think it ever gets to that point 
> no matter how well you know linux and speakup.  And if all you want out of 
> your computer is for it to work with a minimum of fuss, then maybe you had 
> better stick to Windows.

Re: An official slightly off topic anouncement

[Glenn Ervin]

Janina Sajka wrote:
> I find it hard to think of any OS that crashes daily, or even more
> frequently, as "working." I wouldn't hire that kind of worker.
>
> Janina

XP doesn't crash often, this is a characteristic of earlier versions of 
Windows.
Sure, Linux is much more stable, but XP rarely crashes.
But There is the problem of the most popular OS having the most amount of 
viruses written for it.
Glenn

>
> John Heim writes:
>> We care because often people get into linux expecting it to be like
>> Windows. Possibly, if these people are fore-warned, they will be
>> less likely to give up.  That's been my experience anyway.
>>
>> I think sometimes in their enthusiasm for linux,  linux nerds sell
>> it as being easier to use than Windows. I don't think it ever gets
>> to that point no matter how well you know linux and speakup.  And if
>> all you want out of your computer is for it to work with a minimum
>> of fuss, then maybe you had better stick to Windows.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 

Re: An official slightly off topic anouncement

[Lorenzo Taylor]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I beg to differ on the issue of XP rarely crashing.  Back when I ran XP
it would die at least 3 times a week.  And with XP you don't get a BSOD.
It just reboots for no apparent reason before you ever know there's
anything wrong.  So you can forget coming out of the blue screen, saving
your work and rebooting.  It just doesn't happen.  And yes I did have
all the latest antivirus and antispyware stuff and boy did it hog system
resources.  Not to mention the fact that JAWS brought what was at that
time a fairly high-end system to a slow crawl after only a few hours of
use.  Yeah, I saw the propaganda on TV about XP being more stable than
95/98/me, but I guess stability is relative, since 3 to 5 crashes a week
is technically more stable than 2 to 3 crashes a day.

Lorenzo
- -- 
I've always found anomalies to be very relaxing. It's a curse.
- --Jadzia Dax: Star Trek Deep Space Nine (The Assignment)
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: An official slightly off topic anouncement

[Glenn Ervin]

Lorenzo Taylor wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> I beg to differ on the issue of XP rarely crashing.  Back when I ran
> XP it would die at least 3 times a week.  And with XP you don't get a
> BSOD. It just reboots for no apparent reason before you ever know
> there's anything wrong.  So you can forget coming out of the blue
> screen, saving your work and rebooting.  It just doesn't happen.  And
> yes I did have all the latest antivirus and antispyware stuff and boy
> did it hog system resources.  Not to mention the fact that JAWS
> brought what was at that time a fairly high-end system to a slow
> crawl after only a few hours of use.  Yeah, I saw the propaganda on
> TV about XP being more stable than 95/98/me, but I guess stability is
> relative, since 3 to 5 crashes a week is technically more stable than
> 2 to 3 crashes a day.
>
> Lorenzo

I guess it's how one uses it, as I have rarely experienced crashes with XP.
It may also have to do with the system it's on, and how often one runs 
scans.
Glenn

> - --
> I've always found anomalies to be very relaxing. It's a curse.
> - --Jadzia Dax: Star Trek Deep Space Nine (The Assignment)
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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> =KLD+
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup 

RE: An official slightly off topic anouncement

[Sina Bahram]

Actually, the BSOD is completely configurable from the my computer screen.
As is the level of dumped output for further analysis, between no dump,
small dump, or large memory dump.

I've had windows XP instances going on for weeks at a time, running various
assistive technologies, compilers, IDE's, web browsers such as FireFox, IE,
and Opera, and more. I've also heard and experienced similar situations via
friends and family members, as well as colleagues.

In fact, I have seen windows server 2003 instances go on for months at a
time, and the only reason they were rebooted was because the system
administrator felt it necessary, or had a UPS misconfigured when the power
went out.

Admittedly, windows XP is a user OS, and unlike server 2003, might not get
you months and months of uptimes, but there again, I have had similar
situations.

Let's not go too far down the Linux is more stable path when it comes to
graphical desktops, user activities, and third party apps, as I have had
just as many kernel panics, dumps, and red screens of death as blue screens.

Earlier versions of windows were quite atrocious, which really explains the
attitude of a lot of grizzled Linux veterans, although it is always amusing
to me to see grizzled Linux folks talk about Windows, and then to realize
all of the experiences, numbers, and instances they are quoting are from
sometimes a decade old, if not at least five years ago.

Anyways, to each his own, yes? Personally, I believe using the right tool
for the job.

Take care,
Sina

-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of Lorenzo Taylor
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 12:39 PM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: An official slightly off topic anouncement

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I beg to differ on the issue of XP rarely crashing.  Back when I ran XP it
would die at least 3 times a week.  And with XP you don't get a BSOD.
It just reboots for no apparent reason before you ever know there's anything
wrong.  So you can forget coming out of the blue screen, saving your work
and rebooting.  It just doesn't happen.  And yes I did have all the latest
antivirus and antispyware stuff and boy did it hog system resources.  Not to
mention the fact that JAWS brought what was at that time a fairly high-end
system to a slow crawl after only a few hours of use.  Yeah, I saw the
propaganda on TV about XP being more stable than 95/98/me, but I guess
stability is relative, since 3 to 5 crashes a week is technically more
stable than 2 to 3 crashes a day.

Lorenzo
- --
I've always found anomalies to be very relaxing. It's a curse.
- --Jadzia Dax: Star Trek Deep Space Nine (The Assignment) -----BEGIN PGP
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=KLD+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: An official slightly off topic anouncement

[Janina Sajka]

Re: An official slightly off topic anouncement

[Chris Norman]

To be honest, my laptop has been running (under windows) for about a
fortnight now, and it's not crashed at all, but then I never touch it,
it's just playing Gary Moore 24/7 LOL.

Take care.

On Fri, 2007-03-09 at 12:39 -0500, Lorenzo Taylor wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> I beg to differ on the issue of XP rarely crashing.  Back when I ran XP
> it would die at least 3 times a week.  And with XP you don't get a BSOD.
> It just reboots for no apparent reason before you ever know there's
> anything wrong.  So you can forget coming out of the blue screen, saving
> your work and rebooting.  It just doesn't happen.  And yes I did have
> all the latest antivirus and antispyware stuff and boy did it hog system
> resources.  Not to mention the fact that JAWS brought what was at that
> time a fairly high-end system to a slow crawl after only a few hours of
> use.  Yeah, I saw the propaganda on TV about XP being more stable than
> 95/98/me, but I guess stability is relative, since 3 to 5 crashes a week
> is technically more stable than 2 to 3 crashes a day.
> 
> Lorenzo
> - -- 
> I've always found anomalies to be very relaxing. It's a curse.
> - --Jadzia Dax: Star Trek Deep Space Nine (The Assignment)
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux)
> 
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> imI8e0FyXWoydqo/BCTNEj0=
> =KLD+
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> Email has been scanned for viruses by Altman Technologies' email management service - www.altman.co.uk/emailsystems


Email has been scanned for viruses by Altman Technologies' email management service - www.altman.co.uk/emailsystems

Re: An official slightly off topic anouncement

[Gregory Nowak]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Speaking of uptime, wikipedia has a fairly interesting article on
that:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uptime

One of the things it mentions is that the longest known uptime on a
unix box is currently 6 years, no, it's not a gnu/linux system. It
also tells you how to find out the uptime of a nt family windblows
system if anybody cares.

It also has a link to another article that exactly explains the load
average output you get when typing uptime at the prompt on a unix
system. I always knew of course that a load average of 2 was putting
more load on the system than 0.50 for example, and that the values
displayed were for 1, 5, and 15 minutes respectively, but I never knew
until now exactly how to interpret that output.

Greg


On Sat, Mar 10, 2007 at 10:53:34AM +0000, Chris Norman wrote:
> To be honest, my laptop has been running (under windows) for about a
> fortnight now, and it's not crashed at all, but then I never touch it,
> it's just playing Gary Moore 24/7 LOL.
> 
> Take care.
> 

- -- 
web site: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org
gpg public key: http://www.romuald.net.eu.org/pubkey.asc
skype: gregn1
(authorization required, add me to your contacts list first)

- --
Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: An official slightly off topic anouncement

[Alex Snow]

I have windows desktops that go weeks at a time without crashing...so 
windows isn't always as unstable as people claim it is...
On Fri, Mar 09, 
2007 at 12:11:55PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> I find it hard to think of any OS that crashes daily, or even more
> frequently, as "working." I wouldn't hire that kind of worker.
> 
> Janina
> 
> John Heim writes:
> > We care because often people get into linux expecting it to be like Windows. 
> > Possibly, if these people are fore-warned, they will be less likely to give 
> > up.  That's been my experience anyway.
> > 
> > I think sometimes in their enthusiasm for linux,  linux nerds sell it as 
> > being easier to use than Windows. I don't think it ever gets to that point 
> > no matter how well you know linux and speakup.  And if all you want out of 
> > your computer is for it to work with a minimum of fuss, then maybe you had 
> > better stick to Windows.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
[In 'Doctor' mode], I spent a good ten minutes telling Emacs what I
thought of it.  (The response was, 'Perhaps you could try to be less
abusive.')
	-- Matt Welsh

Re: An official slightly off topic anouncement

[Lorenzo Taylor]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I guess it's all a matter of how much a Windows XP user uses the
computer.  I have heard that Windows XP can run for weeks at a time, but
it never happened for me.  I once got XP to run 5 days straight, but
that was a once-in-a-lifetime occurrance for me.  I guess it's because I
kept my computer on all the time like I do now.  I was trying to run a
very small web site with very few hits, an ftp server with just a few
files on it and very few hits and a personal mail server just to get my
own mail.  This was actually running on XP pro and rarely ran for 2 days
before crashing and burning.  This is why I just can't recommend using
Windows of any kind in a server environment.  My problems decreased when
I switched from an aging computer to the latest AMD Athlon XP 1800+ with
512 MB of RAM which was pretty much top-of-the-line at the time, but
they didn't go away completely.  At that point the system didn't bomb
every time I tried to access the mail server's web page, but it still
crashed about once every 2 days or sometimes more often.  And JAWS even
brought that computer to a very slow crawl after it had been running for
more than about 2 hours using about 95% of system resources.  My only
remedy for this was to quit JAWS and restart it, which usually brought
the system back to life for another 2 to 3 hours, but usually less the
more I did it.

Now on Linux I do a lot more.  I run actually 4 different web sites,
still small with few hits but more of them and I also run an ftp server
with many more and bigger files on it than I ever had running Windows
XP.  I also run a personal mail server to send and receive my own mail
on 3 addresses with the ability to add an unlimited additional number of
addresses.  I also run an NFS server to allow me to copy my files to and
from my laptop.  And not only do I run Speakup, but I also run Orca with
the full Gnome GUI and sometimes I even use FireFox 3.0 with the latest
Orca to browse the web.  It's quite nice, BTW.  After all this and more,
it is still possible for my system to be up for 2 months or more without
a single crash or other problem that necessitates a reboot.  And this
was true on my old Athlon XP system with 512 MB of memory as well as it
is true on my new AMD Athlon64x2 system with 1GB of ram.  Most reboots
were caused by my desire to live on the bleeding edge and always upgrade
to the latest kernel.  Of course to use the new kernel, the system must
be rebooted.  But I have learned to tame down that desire somewhat and
for the most part I just use Ubuntu and upgrade/reboot on the new
release.  This means it may actually be possible to reboot my computer
only once in a 6-month period.  WOW!  In Windows XP that was unheardof.

Just my own personal experience for what it's worth, your mileage may
vary.

Lorenzo
- -- 
I've always found anomalies to be very relaxing. It's a curse.
- --Jadzia Dax: Star Trek Deep Space Nine (The Assignment)
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Re[2]: An official slightly off topic anouncement

[Farhan]

Hello, the unstability with windows in your case was probably a jaws issue more than anything else.
Freedomscientific needs to rewrite Jaws completely, there is so much old code dating back to Jaws 3.0
I've had a windows machine with regular usage up for about a month and a half, I just has to log out and log in again periodicly to fix little memory issues.
I still think windows 2k runs more smoothly than xp.

On 3/9/2007 at 13:54 Lorenzo Taylor said
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I guess it's all a matter of how much a Windows XP user uses the
computer.  I have heard that Windows XP can run for weeks at a time, but
it never happened for me.  I once got XP to run 5 days straight, but
that was a once-in-a-lifetime occurrance for me.  I guess it's because I
kept my computer on all the time like I do now.  I was trying to run a
very small web site with very few hits, an ftp server with just a few
files on it and very few hits and a personal mail server just to get my
own mail.  This was actually running on XP pro and rarely ran for 2 days
before crashing and burning.  This is why I just can't recommend using
Windows of any kind in a server environment.  My problems decreased when
I switched from an aging computer to the latest AMD Athlon XP 1800+ with
512 MB of RAM which was pretty much top-of-the-line at the time, but
they didn't go away completely.  At that point the system didn't bomb
every time I tried to access the mail server's web page, but it still
crashed about once every 2 days or sometimes more often.  And JAWS even
brought that computer to a very slow crawl after it had been running for
more than about 2 hours using about 95% of system resources.  My only
remedy for this was to quit JAWS and restart it, which usually brought
the system back to life for another 2 to 3 hours, but usually less the
more I did it.

Now on Linux I do a lot more.  I run actually 4 different web sites,
still small with few hits but more of them and I also run an ftp server
with many more and bigger files on it than I ever had running Windows
XP.  I also run a personal mail server to send and receive my own mail
on 3 addresses with the ability to add an unlimited additional number of
addresses.  I also run an NFS server to allow me to copy my files to and
from my laptop.  And not only do I run Speakup, but I also run Orca with
the full Gnome GUI and sometimes I even use FireFox 3.0 with the latest
Orca to browse the web.  It's quite nice, BTW.  After all this and more,
it is still possible for my system to be up for 2 months or more without
a single crash or other problem that necessitates a reboot.  And this
was true on my old Athlon XP system with 512 MB of memory as well as it
is true on my new AMD Athlon64x2 system with 1GB of ram.  Most reboots
were caused by my desire to live on the bleeding edge and always upgrade
to the latest kernel.  Of course to use the new kernel, the system must
be rebooted.  But I have learned to tame down that desire somewhat and
for the most part I just use Ubuntu and upgrade/reboot on the new
release.  This means it may actually be possible to reboot my computer
only once in a 6-month period.  WOW!  In Windows XP that was unheardof.

Just my own personal experience for what it's worth, your mileage may
vary.

Lorenzo
- -- 
I've always found anomalies to be very relaxing. It's a curse.
- --Jadzia Dax: Star Trek Deep Space Nine (The Assignment)
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http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: ***SPAM*** Re[2]: An official slightly off topic anouncement

[Lorenzo Taylor]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hmm.  You bring up a very good point about the instability of JAWS
contributing to the instability of Windows.  Hmm.  Makes me wonder how
much more stable Windows XP would be using the new open-source NVDA
instead.  I still like Linux and won't budge away from it, but if anyone
who still uses Windows would like to experiment I thought I'd put it
out there.  If anyone would like a link I can send it off list, since
it's definitely o/t here.

Lorenzo
- -- 
I've always found anomalies to be very relaxing. It's a curse.
- --Jadzia Dax: Star Trek Deep Space Nine (The Assignment)
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Re: An official slightly off topic anouncement

[Erik Heil]

Hello
A few months of uptime is nothing in the Linux world.  I've seen boxes that 
I personally have here been up for over 380 days of uptime.  In fact, the 
only reason why it was rebooted was do to massive power failures which is 
obviously beyond my control.  Given the upgrade of kernels, you obviously 
can't count that against uptime.  Honestly, I can't recommend Windows for 
any sort of environment.  Security concerns are way to numerous.  Every 
week, you hear about potential problems that may allow people to take 
control of you're computer.  Any real operating system would not have been 
released with such glaring bugs.  Just demonstrates that Microsoft is not 
able to write stable software, and is more concerned with market share 
than with quality of the end product.

On Fri, 9 Mar 2007, Lorenzo Taylor wrote:

> Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 14:32:47 -0500
> From: Lorenzo Taylor <lorenzo@taylor.homelinux.net>
> Reply-To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
>     <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Subject: Re: An official slightly off topic anouncement
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> I guess it's all a matter of how much a Windows XP user uses the
> computer.  I have heard that Windows XP can run for weeks at a time, but
> it never happened for me.  I once got XP to run 5 days straight, but
> that was a once-in-a-lifetime occurrance for me.  I guess it's because I
> kept my computer on all the time like I do now.  I was trying to run a
> very small web site with very few hits, an ftp server with just a few
> files on it and very few hits and a personal mail server just to get my
> own mail.  This was actually running on XP pro and rarely ran for 2 days
> before crashing and burning.  This is why I just can't recommend using
> Windows of any kind in a server environment.  My problems decreased when
> I switched from an aging computer to the latest AMD Athlon XP 1800+ with
> 512 MB of RAM which was pretty much top-of-the-line at the time, but
> they didn't go away completely.  At that point the system didn't bomb
> every time I tried to access the mail server's web page, but it still
> crashed about once every 2 days or sometimes more often.  And JAWS even
> brought that computer to a very slow crawl after it had been running for
> more than about 2 hours using about 95% of system resources.  My only
> remedy for this was to quit JAWS and restart it, which usually brought
> the system back to life for another 2 to 3 hours, but usually less the
> more I did it.
>
> Now on Linux I do a lot more.  I run actually 4 different web sites,
> still small with few hits but more of them and I also run an ftp server
> with many more and bigger files on it than I ever had running Windows
> XP.  I also run a personal mail server to send and receive my own mail
> on 3 addresses with the ability to add an unlimited additional number of
> addresses.  I also run an NFS server to allow me to copy my files to and
> from my laptop.  And not only do I run Speakup, but I also run Orca with
> the full Gnome GUI and sometimes I even use FireFox 3.0 with the latest
> Orca to browse the web.  It's quite nice, BTW.  After all this and more,
> it is still possible for my system to be up for 2 months or more without
> a single crash or other problem that necessitates a reboot.  And this
> was true on my old Athlon XP system with 512 MB of memory as well as it
> is true on my new AMD Athlon64x2 system with 1GB of ram.  Most reboots
> were caused by my desire to live on the bleeding edge and always upgrade
> to the latest kernel.  Of course to use the new kernel, the system must
> be rebooted.  But I have learned to tame down that desire somewhat and
> for the most part I just use Ubuntu and upgrade/reboot on the new
> release.  This means it may actually be possible to reboot my computer
> only once in a 6-month period.  WOW!  In Windows XP that was unheardof.
>
> Just my own personal experience for what it's worth, your mileage may
> vary.
>
> Lorenzo
> - --
> I've always found anomalies to be very relaxing. It's a curse.
> - --Jadzia Dax: Star Trek Deep Space Nine (The Assignment)
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

eheil@sdf.lonestar.org
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org

Re: An official slightly off topic anouncement

[Lorenzo Taylor]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Well, I did qualify my months of uptime by saying that the reboots I
experienced were mostly due to kernel upgrades.  Heck.  What can I say?
I love living on the edge and always having the latest and greatest
software, even at the cost of uptime. <smile> That being said, if you
don't count kernel upgrades as taking away from uptime, I would have to
say that my uptime has only been compromized by experimentation and the
occasional death of old hardware.  The most recent case of the death of
old hardware was when my old motherboard died and I bought a used
replacement and it died as well.  Since then I have bought entirely new
parts and only kept my old case and drives, and I plan to replace the
hard drive within the year, just because I want an SATA drive that can
hold more data than my current drive.  Yeah, I like having the latest
and greatest hardware as well as the latest and greatest software.
<smile>

Lorenzo
- -- 
I've always found anomalies to be very relaxing. It's a curse.
- --Jadzia Dax: Star Trek Deep Space Nine (The Assignment)
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Re: An official slightly off topic anouncement

[ace]

[irc] $ uptime
5:22PM  up 463 days, 12:26, 8 users, load averages: 0.05, 0.09, 0.09
[irc] $

How's that for an uptime?

Erik Heil wrote:
> Hello
> A few months of uptime is nothing in the Linux world.  I've seen boxes that 
> I personally have here been up for over 380 days of uptime.  In fact, the 
> only reason why it was rebooted was do to massive power failures which is 
> obviously beyond my control.  Given the upgrade of kernels, you obviously 
> can't count that against uptime.  Honestly, I can't recommend Windows for 
> any sort of environment.  Security concerns are way to numerous.  Every 
> week, you hear about potential problems that may allow people to take 
> control of you're computer.  Any real operating system would not have been 
> released with such glaring bugs.  Just demonstrates that Microsoft is not 
> able to write stable software, and is more concerned with market share 
> than with quality of the end product.
>

Re: An official slightly off topic anouncement

[Erik Heil]

Wow!  That's excellent. I would have had something similar on a few of 
these boxes, if it weren't for a power failure and my misconfigured UPS.

On Fri, 9 Mar 2007, ace wrote:

> Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 17:29:43 -0500
> From: ace <ace@talkingirc.net>
> Reply-To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
>     <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux. <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Subject: Re: An official slightly off topic anouncement
> 
> [irc] $ uptime
> 5:22PM  up 463 days, 12:26, 8 users, load averages: 0.05, 0.09, 0.09
> [irc] $
>
> How's that for an uptime?
>
> Erik Heil wrote:
>> Hello
>> A few months of uptime is nothing in the Linux world.  I've seen boxes that
>> I personally have here been up for over 380 days of uptime.  In fact, the
>> only reason why it was rebooted was do to massive power failures which is
>> obviously beyond my control.  Given the upgrade of kernels, you obviously
>> can't count that against uptime.  Honestly, I can't recommend Windows for
>> any sort of environment.  Security concerns are way to numerous.  Every
>> week, you hear about potential problems that may allow people to take
>> control of you're computer.  Any real operating system would not have been
>> released with such glaring bugs.  Just demonstrates that Microsoft is not
>> able to write stable software, and is more concerned with market share
>> than with quality of the end product.
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

eheil@sdf.lonestar.org
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org

RE: An official slightly off topic anouncement

[Anthony Creapeau]

I myself am not biased to any one OS as each has it's plus and minuses. But
for running a web server on Windows Professional was probably not a good
idea because it's actually a client machine used as a workstation in a
business environment. Each service you install or add to Windows does effect
the amount of resources that are eaten up in which case a low end web-server
would have done just fine. I use Window eyes and JAWS, audio converters,
antivirus and surf the web without a flinch from MS. 

Let's not forget virus writers want to inflict as much damage in one
instance as they can. What OS is the most prevalent in a business
environment? That's right, Windows and that's why it is so virus stricken.
Give me one OS on the market today that is impervious to viruses. I can't
think of one including Linux. Each and every OS has it's drawbacks and
whatever you choose to use is fine. To each their own.

Anthony Creapeau 
-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of Lorenzo Taylor
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 1:33 PM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: An official slightly off topic anouncement

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I guess it's all a matter of how much a Windows XP user uses the computer.
I have heard that Windows XP can run for weeks at a time, but it never
happened for me.  I once got XP to run 5 days straight, but that was a
once-in-a-lifetime occurrance for me.  I guess it's because I kept my
computer on all the time like I do now.  I was trying to run a very small
web site with very few hits, an ftp server with just a few files on it and
very few hits and a personal mail server just to get my own mail.  This was
actually running on XP pro and rarely ran for 2 days before crashing and
burning.  This is why I just can't recommend using Windows of any kind in a
server environment.  My problems decreased when I switched from an aging
computer to the latest AMD Athlon XP 1800+ with
512 MB of RAM which was pretty much top-of-the-line at the time, but they
didn't go away completely.  At that point the system didn't bomb every time
I tried to access the mail server's web page, but it still crashed about
once every 2 days or sometimes more often.  And JAWS even brought that
computer to a very slow crawl after it had been running for more than about
2 hours using about 95% of system resources.  My only remedy for this was to
quit JAWS and restart it, which usually brought the system back to life for
another 2 to 3 hours, but usually less the more I did it.

Now on Linux I do a lot more.  I run actually 4 different web sites, still
small with few hits but more of them and I also run an ftp server with many
more and bigger files on it than I ever had running Windows XP.  I also run
a personal mail server to send and receive my own mail on 3 addresses with
the ability to add an unlimited additional number of addresses.  I also run
an NFS server to allow me to copy my files to and from my laptop.  And not
only do I run Speakup, but I also run Orca with the full Gnome GUI and
sometimes I even use FireFox 3.0 with the latest Orca to browse the web.
It's quite nice, BTW.  After all this and more, it is still possible for my
system to be up for 2 months or more without a single crash or other problem
that necessitates a reboot.  And this was true on my old Athlon XP system
with 512 MB of memory as well as it is true on my new AMD Athlon64x2 system
with 1GB of ram.  Most reboots were caused by my desire to live on the
bleeding edge and always upgrade to the latest kernel.  Of course to use the
new kernel, the system must be rebooted.  But I have learned to tame down
that desire somewhat and for the most part I just use Ubuntu and
upgrade/reboot on the new release.  This means it may actually be possible
to reboot my computer only once in a 6-month period.  WOW!  In Windows XP
that was unheardof.

Just my own personal experience for what it's worth, your mileage may vary.

Lorenzo
- --
I've always found anomalies to be very relaxing. It's a curse.
- --Jadzia Dax: Star Trek Deep Space Nine (The Assignment) -----BEGIN PGP
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RE: An official slightly off topic anouncement

[Michael Whapples]

On Fri, 2007-03-09 at 14:37 -0600, Anthony Creapeau wrote:
> I myself am not biased to any one OS as each has it's plus and minuses. But
> for running a web server on Windows Professional was probably not a good
> idea because it's actually a client machine used as a workstation in a
> business environment. Each service you install or add to Windows does effect
> the amount of resources that are eaten up in which case a low end web-server
> would have done just fine. I use Window eyes and JAWS, audio converters,
> antivirus and surf the web without a flinch from MS. 
> 
> Let's not forget virus writers want to inflict as much damage in one
> instance as they can. What OS is the most prevalent in a business
> environment? That's right, Windows and that's why it is so virus stricken.
There's talk that business is not such a target now, home users are
meant to be becoming more tageted as so much more is being done with
computers (eg. shopping online, storage of personal information, etc)
and home computers are being left online for longer now broadband has
taken over from dialup, and the average home users tend to be less aware
of security for their computers.
> Give me one OS on the market today that is impervious to viruses. I can't
> think of one including Linux. Each and every OS has it's drawbacks and
> whatever you choose to use is fine. To each their own.
May be not entirely free of security issues, but one of the most secure
systems is meant to be openBSD, and they claim only 1 remote hole in
over 10 years. They do alot of searching code for bugs and fixing
anything which seems incorrect, even if it isn't proven to be a security
hole.
> From
Michael Whapples
> Anthony Creapeau 

RE: An official slightly off topic anouncement

[Anthony Creapeau]

My professor was part of the BSD team where he earned his PhD in this
particular OS and he too claims with all the attempts to plug holes it is
not impervious to virus attacks.

-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-bounces@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of Michael Whapples
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 5:15 PM
To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: RE: An official slightly off topic anouncement

On Fri, 2007-03-09 at 14:37 -0600, Anthony Creapeau wrote:
> I myself am not biased to any one OS as each has it's plus and 
> minuses. But for running a web server on Windows Professional was 
> probably not a good idea because it's actually a client machine used 
> as a workstation in a business environment. Each service you install 
> or add to Windows does effect the amount of resources that are eaten 
> up in which case a low end web-server would have done just fine. I use 
> Window eyes and JAWS, audio converters, antivirus and surf the web without
a flinch from MS.
> 
> Let's not forget virus writers want to inflict as much damage in one 
> instance as they can. What OS is the most prevalent in a business 
> environment? That's right, Windows and that's why it is so virus stricken.
There's talk that business is not such a target now, home users are meant to
be becoming more tageted as so much more is being done with computers (eg.
shopping online, storage of personal information, etc) and home computers
are being left online for longer now broadband has taken over from dialup,
and the average home users tend to be less aware of security for their
computers.
> Give me one OS on the market today that is impervious to viruses. I 
> can't think of one including Linux. Each and every OS has it's 
> drawbacks and whatever you choose to use is fine. To each their own.
May be not entirely free of security issues, but one of the most secure
systems is meant to be openBSD, and they claim only 1 remote hole in over 10
years. They do alot of searching code for bugs and fixing anything which
seems incorrect, even if it isn't proven to be a security hole.
> From
Michael Whapples
> Anthony Creapeau




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Re: An official slightly off topic anouncement

[Doug Smith]

Well.  That makes it necessary for me to ask a question.  Are you
using speakup on an amd 64 x 2 dual core? That's what I am going to
get, when the machines go on sale for school.  I want a big,
warp-driven system with all that memory and processing power.  What
kind of sound board are you using in that? 

Now, on the subject of any kind of screen of death.  I know this.  I
am running grml 0.9 on a friend's single core pentium 451 mHz until I
buy me a new system, and this thing never dies.  The only problems I
have ever had that necessitate a reboot are those times when I type so
fast as to crash the speech subsystem.  This is a problem I have had
in computer use since the 1980's.  I can just slow down my keying and
avoid this, and this thing simply whirs along, pretty as you please.
I leave the computer on unless there's going to be lightening, then I
turn it off and unplug it..  

Well, when I turn it all back on to start using it again, it all comes
right back up with speech ready for me to use.  I just log in and
restart the speech again.  

I am glad, Lorenzo, to see that you are a fellow Star Trek fan.  What
I really want is the exact same kind of system that's on the
Enterprise, NCC-1701-D.  Any takers to help me build it? 

By the way, an off-topic question to the fellow Star Trek fan, do you
know how I could find a good description of the actual shape of a
Federation ship like the Enterprise series? It's not all that good in
the novels.  

Well, that's about it for now.  I hope that I can contribute, and find
out something here.  



Live long and prosper.




-- 
Doug Smith: C.S.F.C.
Computer Scientist For CHRIST

Re: An official slightly off topic anouncement

[Lorenzo Taylor]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I am running Speakup and Orca both on an AMD Athlon64x2 dual-core system
as I am typing this.  It really rocks.  The only problem is that
speechd-up and speech-dispatcher even the newest versions still seem to
die on dual-core systems.  I have thus far failed to report the bug (my
fault) and am currently using my hardware synthesizer for Speakup for
now.

As for the enterprise NCC-1701D computer, I would love to have one of
those myself.  It's much faster and better and I'm sure much more
expensive than even the best supercomputer available today.

As for the specifications of the Enterprise and other Federation ships,
the best places to look are probably startrek.com and memory-alpha.org.
Memory-alpha is basically a wikipedia of all things Star Trek.  It's
quite nice.

And yes, I am a huge fan of Star Trek in all its forms, and especially
the greatest character of all, Jadzia Dax.  I have even made sound clips
of her voice to put in my .procmailrc. <smile> Let me know if you want
one or both of the clips I made now that I've gone completely off-topic.
<smile again>

Lorenzo
- -- 
I've always found anomalies to be very relaxing. It's a curse.
- --Jadzia Dax: Star Trek Deep Space Nine (The Assignment)
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Re: An official slightly off topic anouncement

[Doug Smith]

Ok, let's just take this one off the list.  You can contact me off
list and we can continue the discussion about Star Trek.  It would be
the best thing to do before the photon torpedoes start flying from
those who don't like good science fiction.  



Just contact me off list for this one.  




-- 
Doug Smith: C.S.F.C.
Computer Scientist For CHRIST

Re: An official slightly off topic anouncement

[Lorenzo Taylor]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Oops.  I forgot to mention the sound board I'm using.  My mobo came with
an Nvidia something onboard that uses the snd_intel8x0 driver.  However
I blacklisted that driver in favour of my Soundblaster Live Value.  It
works quite well for me and allows multiple streams to play at once with
zero latency.

Peace and long life,
Lorenzo
- -- 
I've always found anomalies to be very relaxing. It's a curse.
- --Jadzia Dax: Star Trek Deep Space Nine (The Assignment)
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Re: An official slightly off topic anouncement

[Doug Smith]

I have a soundblaster live ls.  I will probably take that card to
Circuit City when I buy my new system so that can just put it in for
me.  I don't know hardware.  Well, they do and they can do it.  I will
probably use that until all the problems are solved.  Thanks for the
info.  



Ahead, maximum warp.  




-- 
Doug Smith: C.S.F.C.
Computer Scientist For CHRIST

Re[2]: An official slightly off topic anouncement

[Farhan]

Hello, I see your points about using linux  as a server, and a mediabox, but the stuff I want to do like voice chat for example can't be done on LInux, well it could if I installed vmplayer and windows.

On 2/23/2007 at 10:13 John Heim said
From: "Gregory Nowak" <greg@romuald.net.eu.org>
> on this list, are
> anti-microsoft. After all, having been a user of windblows, and
> gnu/linux for a few years now, I can't honestly say that I think
> people are switching from windblows to gnu/linux, because gnu/linux is
> easier to use than windows is.

I made this same point on the blinux list a while ago and sparked quite a 
controversy. I believe anyone getting into linux should prepare themselves 
for a steep learning curve. But it pays off in the end. In fact, I've  been 
advising my blind computer nerd friends to get into linux as a form of job 
security.

> For anybody else who has used both
> operating systems for a good while, and is tempted to disagree with
> that, think back on your first time compiling a customized linux
> kernel, or on the steps one has to go through to build a piece of
> software from source , or better yet, on how involved building a
> gentoo, or a linux-from-scratch system is.

Yeah, but you can't compile a custom kernel at all for Windows. Mostly, you 
can't compile software either. You get what you get.

So this is really the #1 difference between linux and Windows.  In linux, 
you can do just about anything you can do with a computer but you're 
expected to learn how. With Windows, the ideal situation is for you to never 
have to read the documentation. Windows users want to just install and go. 
With linux, we give up intuitiveness for being able to make the thing do 
exactly what we want.

Actually, I think the combination of both works really well. I use Windows 
as my desktop environment. But i do all my actual work on linux. For 
example, I have this elaborate system for recording the sound track of TV 
shows. I have a script that checks the schedule of my local PBS affiliate 
searching for my favorite shows, Nova, American Experience, etc. If it finds 
them, it writes the show and time it will be on to a file. Then there is a 
cron job that runs sox to record each show . I then listen to them on my 
Windows machine by double clicking on them on my network drive.

Here at the Math Department of the U of Wisconsin, we have dhcp, dns, 
ldaphttp mysql,  , and imap servers all running on linux.  I manage all 
these things via my Windows desktop.


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Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: An official slightly off topic anouncement

[jaffar]

Hi.  I totally agree.  I came to linux from a windows environment through a 
software engineering course that i had just completed.  Throughout the 
course, I had the opportunity to compare both environments, and the huge 
difference for me is that while MS Windows is all there, in a manner of 
speaking, Linux allows one to explore, learn and above all else, to be 
adventurous.  Now those attrebutes one definitely cannot associate with 
windows.  Summary? with MS windows, what you get is what you get.  With 
Linux, what you do is what you get, and i know which i prefer.  Cheers!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Heim" <jheim@math.wisc.edu>
To: "Speakup is a screen review system for Linux." <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 11:06 PM
Subject: Re: An official slightly off topic anouncement


> From: "Gregory Nowak" <greg@romuald.net.eu.org>
>> on this list, are
>> anti-microsoft. After all, having been a user of windblows, and
>> gnu/linux for a few years now, I can't honestly say that I think
>> people are switching from windblows to gnu/linux, because gnu/linux is
>> easier to use than windows is.
>
> I made this same point on the blinux list a while ago and sparked quite a
> controversy. I believe anyone getting into linux should prepare themselves
> for a steep learning curve. But it pays off in the end. In fact, I've 
> been
> advising my blind computer nerd friends to get into linux as a form of job
> security.
>
>> For anybody else who has used both
>> operating systems for a good while, and is tempted to disagree with
>> that, think back on your first time compiling a customized linux
>> kernel, or on the steps one has to go through to build a piece of
>> software from source , or better yet, on how involved building a
>> gentoo, or a linux-from-scratch system is.
>
> Yeah, but you can't compile a custom kernel at all for Windows. Mostly, 
> you
> can't compile software either. You get what you get.
>
> So this is really the #1 difference between linux and Windows.  In linux,
> you can do just about anything you can do with a computer but you're
> expected to learn how. With Windows, the ideal situation is for you to 
> never
> have to read the documentation. Windows users want to just install and go.
> With linux, we give up intuitiveness for being able to make the thing do
> exactly what we want.
>
> Actually, I think the combination of both works really well. I use Windows
> as my desktop environment. But i do all my actual work on linux. For
> example, I have this elaborate system for recording the sound track of TV
> shows. I have a script that checks the schedule of my local PBS affiliate
> searching for my favorite shows, Nova, American Experience, etc. If it 
> finds
> them, it writes the show and time it will be on to a file. Then there is a
> cron job that runs sox to record each show . I then listen to them on my
> Windows machine by double clicking on them on my network drive.
>
> Here at the Math Department of the U of Wisconsin, we have dhcp, dns,
> ldaphttp mysql,  , and imap servers all running on linux.  I manage all
> these things via my Windows desktop.
>
>
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>
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> 

Re: An official slightly off topic anouncement

[tony seth]

Well, may I officially welcome you, and congratulate you for your 
Ascension in to a greater universe!
Cheereo!

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