suggestion?

suggestion?

[Igor Gueths]

Hi all. Well, I just got my college schedule for next year, which is
focused on CS which is what I am majoring in. However, I have noticed a
fairly large problem. The first semester I have to take a Java class. Once
I found this out, I thought about how Java is not accessible by any means.
I mean I have tried about 4 different java runtimes, and none of them
work. Also, Java applets are a real pain when it comes to being
accessible. I am trying to work with the DSO (ddisability services office)
to try to work something out. However, I keep getting the answer "This
course is required in order to go on to other courses. This is the most
basic class in the CS major requirements." Does anyone have any
suggestions to work around this? Or, has anyone been able to use something
like Freenet, written in Java, successfully? I certainly have not. Thanks
for any feedback!

May you code in the power of the source,
may the kernel, libraries, and utilities be with you,
throughout all distributions until the end of the epoch.

Re: suggestion?

[Alex Snow]

I've had limited success with java apps. I have been able to compile lots
of stuff using sun's java vm under windows.

--
A message from the system administrator: "I've upped my priority, now up yours!"
On Fri, 23 May 2003, Igor Gueths wrote:

> Hi all. Well, I just got my college schedule for next year, which is
> focused on CS which is what I am majoring in. However, I have noticed a
> fairly large problem. The first semester I have to take a Java class. Once
> I found this out, I thought about how Java is not accessible by any means.
> I mean I have tried about 4 different java runtimes, and none of them
> work. Also, Java applets are a real pain when it comes to being
> accessible. I am trying to work with the DSO (ddisability services office)
> to try to work something out. However, I keep getting the answer "This
> course is required in order to go on to other courses. This is the most
> basic class in the CS major requirements." Does anyone have any
> suggestions to work around this? Or, has anyone been able to use something
> like Freenet, written in Java, successfully? I certainly have not. Thanks
> for any feedback!
>
> May you code in the power of the source,
> may the kernel, libraries, and utilities be with you,
> throughout all distributions until the end of the epoch.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: suggestion?

[Doug]

Java is not inherently GUI ... there is a GUI building API
(Swing), but you can compile java on the command line.
There is also an accessibility API for Java, which is
supposed to allow alternative access to the graphical
Swing world, although I haven't tried it.

BTW Java applets are only one facet of Java, which I
think is over emphasized. Applets have a numver of real
problems, especially browser implemnentations of the
necessary APIs (inconsitencies). I work on Java all the
time and I never recommend applets. Instead I recommend
servlets generating web pages for most user interfaces.

One nice thing is that FreeTTS implements the JSAPI
(Java Speech API) with the help of Flite, so it's easy
to make talking Java apps. However, this is onlt speech
synthesis, the recognition stuff is not done yet. Last
I heard there are plans to implement the recognition
part of JSAPI using Sphinx.

I used to work for Sun, JavaSoft no less, they are
good engineers ... if you think that Java is lacking
in accessibility, I encourage you to try contacting
their accessibility folks ...

Keep in mind that Java does not equal applets nor
GUI ... Swing is just part of java ... most of the
Java I have done is not graphical ... See this ...

http://java.sun.com/products/jfc/accessibility.html



   -- Doug

Re: suggestion?

[jude dashiell]

I did a little looking and found references to gnujsp.  That runtime is
supposed to make use of a text-based interface and runs under Linux.  It
also seems to have died on the vine early.

Re: suggestion?

[Igor Gueths]

This is true. But Java aps in my opnion are much harder to get running.
Something like Freenet for example, I had no luck with. I tried about 3
ddifferent runtimes on Linux, and none of them worked.

May you code in the power of the source,
may the kernel, libraries, and utilities be with you,
throughout all distributions until the end of the epoch.

On Fri, 23 May 2003, Doug wrote:

> Java is not inherently GUI ... there is a GUI building API
> (Swing), but you can compile java on the command line.
> There is also an accessibility API for Java, which is
> supposed to allow alternative access to the graphical
> Swing world, although I haven't tried it.
>
> BTW Java applets are only one facet of Java, which I
> think is over emphasized. Applets have a numver of real
> problems, especially browser implemnentations of the
> necessary APIs (inconsitencies). I work on Java all the
> time and I never recommend applets. Instead I recommend
> servlets generating web pages for most user interfaces.
>
> One nice thing is that FreeTTS implements the JSAPI
> (Java Speech API) with the help of Flite, so it's easy
> to make talking Java apps. However, this is onlt speech
> synthesis, the recognition stuff is not done yet. Last
> I heard there are plans to implement the recognition
> part of JSAPI using Sphinx.
>
> I used to work for Sun, JavaSoft no less, they are
> good engineers ... if you think that Java is lacking
> in accessibility, I encourage you to try contacting
> their accessibility folks ...
>
> Keep in mind that Java does not equal applets nor
> GUI ... Swing is just part of java ... most of the
> Java I have done is not graphical ... See this ...
>
> http://java.sun.com/products/jfc/accessibility.html
>
>
>
>    -- Doug
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: suggestion?

[Doug]

I have no idea what freenet is, but getting java itself
to run is easy on windows and linux. All it needs is a
PATH to the java executable. That's all ...

On windows, install is completely automated. On linux,
you run one executable. Change the PATH environment
variable and set JAVA_HOME or include a path to the
/java/bin and you're up and running!

You can then type javac and compile, java to run.

   -- Doug


 > But Java aps in my opnion are much harder to get running.

Harder than what I wonder?

Re: suggestion?

[Igor Gueths]

You can find out more about it at www.freenet.org

May you code in the power of the source,
may the kernel, libraries, and utilities be with you,
throughout all distributions until the end of the epoch.

On Fri, 23 May 2003, Doug wrote:

> I have no idea what freenet is, but getting java itself
> to run is easy on windows and linux. All it needs is a
> PATH to the java executable. That's all ...
>
> On windows, install is completely automated. On linux,
> you run one executable. Change the PATH environment
> variable and set JAVA_HOME or include a path to the
> /java/bin and you're up and running!
>
> You can then type javac and compile, java to run.
>
>    -- Doug
>
>
>  > But Java aps in my opnion are much harder to get running.
>
> Harder than what I wonder?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: suggestion?

[Thomas D. Ward]

Snip:
 I found this out, I thought about how Java is not accessible by any means.

Hi, that isn't true. Java is accessible assuming the requirements for
accessibility are met.
If you are developing a graphical application in java for Linux or Windows
the application must be linked against the accessible swing classes.
In addition the Windows and Linux java accessibility bridges must be
installed to the java run time environment in order for the screen reader to
to interface successfully with the application.
Finally,you will need an accessible development tool for java. The Sun j2sdk
for Windows and Linux which works on the command line is vary accessible.
There are Windows based ides such as jcreator and in Linux the eemacs ide
for java which work with speech.
Hth.

Re: suggestion?

[Gregory Nowak]

I had a similar problem.

The first cs classes for us are cs101, and cs102, which are taken by cs majors.

Both classes deal with html and java script.
No problem with the html, but the tech. specialist at disability services knew that js was a no go.

So, the department heads debated long and hard, and decided at the end to let me take cs107 instead of the cs101/cs102 sequence.
Cs107 is meant for computer engineering majors, (although they allow cs majors with special situations into it), and it is all intro c++ stuff that you would have gotten from 101/102 anyway, minus the html and js of course.

Hth.
Greg


On Fri, May 23, 2003 at 07:20:53PM -0400, Igor Gueths wrote:
> Hi all. Well, I just got my college schedule for next year, which is
> focused on CS which is what I am majoring in. However, I have noticed a
> fairly large problem. The first semester I have to take a Java class. Once
> I found this out, I thought about how Java is not accessible by any means.
> I mean I have tried about 4 different java runtimes, and none of them
> work. Also, Java applets are a real pain when it comes to being
> accessible. I am trying to work with the DSO (ddisability services office)
> to try to work something out. However, I keep getting the answer "This
> course is required in order to go on to other courses. This is the most
> basic class in the CS major requirements." Does anyone have any
> suggestions to work around this? Or, has anyone been able to use something
> like Freenet, written in Java, successfully? I certainly have not. Thanks
> for any feedback!
> 
> May you code in the power of the source,
> may the kernel, libraries, and utilities be with you,
> throughout all distributions until the end of the epoch.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: suggestion?

[Doug]

But wait ... JavaScript is NOT Java ... you can install
the JDK (J2SE) on either windows or linux, and do ALL
of your programming in emacs. The only hitch is GUI apps
and there is an accessibility API. Don't confuse Java
with Java Script, they are not the same animal ...

   -- Doug

Re: suggestion?

[Igor Gueths]

I thought the development tools weren't free? I could be wrong on this.

May you code in the power of the source,
may the kernel, libraries, and utilities be with you,
throughout all distributions until the end of the epoch.

On Fri, 23 May 2003, Doug wrote:

> But wait ... JavaScript is NOT Java ... you can install
> the JDK (J2SE) on either windows or linux, and do ALL
> of your programming in emacs. The only hitch is GUI apps
> and there is an accessibility API. Don't confuse Java
> with Java Script, they are not the same animal ...
>
>    -- Doug
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: suggestion?

[Doug]

The JDK (java Developer's Kit) which now is called
J2SDK, and the runtime (JRE) is all free. There is
also a linux x86 version both at Sun and blackdown.

http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.1/download.html
ftp://ftp.tux.org/pub/java/JDK-1.4.1/i386/01/

There are tools that cost money (integrated development
environments) but you don't need them. You can do
everything in emacs. I actually use VI and the linux
console (that's it!). Also, the NetBeans IDE from Sun
was free last time I checked.

http://www.netbeans.org/

I haven't spent a dime on java development tools
in many years of using it ...

   -- Doug

Re: suggestion?

[Lorenzo Prince]

Both the Linux and Windows versions of the J2SDK are available not
open-source, but free of charge, from java.sun.com.  There are open-source
equivalents available from freshmeat.net and sourceforge if this is
important to you.  Just look up java from either one of those sites.

Lorenzo

The most important design issue... is the fact that Linux is supposed to
be fun...
	-- Linus Torvalds at the First Dutch International Symposium on Linux

Igor Gueths staggered into view and mumbled:

> I thought the development tools weren't free? I could be wrong on this.
>
> May you code in the power of the source,
> may the kernel, libraries, and utilities be with you,
> throughout all distributions until the end of the epoch.
>
> On Fri, 23 May 2003, Doug wrote:
>
> > But wait ... JavaScript is NOT Java ... you can install
> > the JDK (J2SE) on either windows or linux, and do ALL
> > of your programming in emacs. The only hitch is GUI apps
> > and there is an accessibility API. Don't confuse Java
> > with Java Script, they are not the same animal ...
> >
> >    -- Doug
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: suggestion?

[Gregory Nowak]

I wasn't confusing java and java script, I was merely describing my situation.

Greg


On Fri, May 23, 2003 at 07:44:57PM +0200, Doug wrote:
> But wait ... JavaScript is NOT Java ... you can install
> the JDK (J2SE) on either windows or linux, and do ALL
> of your programming in emacs. The only hitch is GUI apps
> and there is an accessibility API. Don't confuse Java
> with Java Script, they are not the same animal ...
> 
>   -- Doug
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: suggestion?

[Doug]

Greg,

Sorry, it sounded like the JavaScript limitation was a
showstopper. Surely a teacher can come up with ways to
either:

a) allow the student to do command line based programming
    for project(s)

b) make an accessible java app using the accessibility API

If the teacher can't come up with a way to allow a
student one of the above, he's not trying very hard.

   -- Doug

Re: suggestion?

[Patrick Turnage]

Hello
I write in JS sometimes for things like allowing the history commands to be
accessable or custom fuctions that present dialog boxes, what about JS is
hard, my degree has a course or two in JS.
Sincerely,
Patrick

---
Patrick Turnage
Pac Mate Gear CoWebmaster
E-mail:
patrickttampabay.rr.com
 patrick@pacmategear.com
Web Site:
http://www.pacmategear.com
PAC Mate Gear: For All Things PAC Mate
Home Page:
http://www.access-connect.com
AOL Instant Messenger:kg4dqk
MSN Messenger:turnagep@hotmail.com

Re: suggestion?

[Gregory Nowak]

What kind of tools do you use, and what's the accessibility like?

Everything I've heard, and researched a bit has led me to believe that js is inaccessible.
The fact that it is accessible is certainly news to me.

That knowledge wouldn't change the classes I'm taking now, but it certainly would be worth
knowing about.

Greg


On Sat, May 24, 2003 at 12:08:51AM -0400, Patrick Turnage wrote:
> Hello
> I write in JS sometimes for things like allowing the history commands to be
> accessable or custom fuctions that present dialog boxes, what about JS is
> hard, my degree has a course or two in JS.
> Sincerely,
> Patrick
> 
> ---
> Patrick Turnage
> Pac Mate Gear CoWebmaster
> E-mail:
> patrickttampabay.rr.com
>  patrick@pacmategear.com
> Web Site:
> http://www.pacmategear.com
> PAC Mate Gear: For All Things PAC Mate
> Home Page:
> http://www.access-connect.com
> AOL Instant Messenger:kg4dqk
> MSN Messenger:turnagep@hotmail.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: suggestion? For JAVA and JS.

[Patrick Turnage]

Hello Greg,
What are you trying to do with JS? I have successfully implimented little
JS events in my HTML code. Mostly if thens but maybe you could find a good
tutorial on JS and write your code and then if the code is going to be used
for graphics you could get special help from your professor. I agree that C
and C++ are more valuable but JS has its nice functions. Also My computer
teacher in high school did some work with programming in JAVA and even
taught a class to a single blind student. I don't have all the details
because it was after I graduated but they worked primarily on servlets. You
are the JAVA programmer impliment the needed access classes and use an
accessibal run-time and you should have no problems. The problems is when
people develop JAVA with out access classes.
Sincerely,
Patrick

---
Patrick Turnage
Pac Mate Gear CoWebmaster
E-mail:
patrickttampabay.rr.com
 patrick@pacmategear.com
Web Site:
http://www.pacmategear.com
PAC Mate Gear: For All Things PAC Mate
Home Page:
http://www.access-connect.com
AOL Instant Messenger:kg4dqk
MSN Messenger:turnagep@hotmail.com

Re: suggestion?

[Igor Gueths]

True. I know the html, but I have a problem with the Java. Unfortunately,
the DSO guy isn't very technically oriented. I am not sure what is going
to happen yet, but I just hope I won't have to take that class. I probably
won't do very well in it, probably because of limited success I've had
with it. I know classes I would do well in, but those aren't until later.
So for now, I have to deal with possibly taking this Java class that is
completely pointless for me. I won't apply it anywhere, not to mention
that I am the one paying for it. Well in reality, its the state. But
still.

May you code in the power of the source,
may the kernel, libraries, and utilities be with you,
throughout all distributions until the end of the epoch.

On Fri, 23 May 2003, Gregory Nowak wrote:

> I had a similar problem.
>
> The first cs classes for us are cs101, and cs102, which are taken by cs majors.
>
> Both classes deal with html and java script.
> No problem with the html, but the tech. specialist at disability services knew that js was a no go.
>
> So, the department heads debated long and hard, and decided at the end to let me take cs107 instead of the cs101/cs102 sequence.
> Cs107 is meant for computer engineering majors, (although they allow cs majors with special situations into it), and it is all intro c++ stuff that you would have gotten from 101/102 anyway, minus the html and js of course.
>
> Hth.
> Greg
>
>
> On Fri, May 23, 2003 at 07:20:53PM -0400, Igor Gueths wrote:
> > Hi all. Well, I just got my college schedule for next year, which is
> > focused on CS which is what I am majoring in. However, I have noticed a
> > fairly large problem. The first semester I have to take a Java class. Once
> > I found this out, I thought about how Java is not accessible by any means.
> > I mean I have tried about 4 different java runtimes, and none of them
> > work. Also, Java applets are a real pain when it comes to being
> > accessible. I am trying to work with the DSO (ddisability services office)
> > to try to work something out. However, I keep getting the answer "This
> > course is required in order to go on to other courses. This is the most
> > basic class in the CS major requirements." Does anyone have any
> > suggestions to work around this? Or, has anyone been able to use something
> > like Freenet, written in Java, successfully? I certainly have not. Thanks
> > for any feedback!
> >
> > May you code in the power of the source,
> > may the kernel, libraries, and utilities be with you,
> > throughout all distributions until the end of the epoch.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: suggestion?

[Lorenzo Prince]

Hi.  I took a Java course last semester and passed with an A.  In the
class I took, we wrote both console applications and graphical applets.  I
was lucky, I guess, cause I have a small amount of vision to be able to
see large shapes on the screen, so I got the instructor's approval to make
things that were too small to see large enough so I could see them.  I
used Linux to run my Java applications so that they were more accessible
to me.  I simply used the Linux SDK available from java.sun.com and ran
the console applications from the command line.  For the applets, I used
Gnome, and although I couldn't see the hilighted menu items or the letters
on the screen, I was able to press alt-f2 and use the run window to type
in "appletviewer" followed by the name of the applet's Java source file
and I could see the applet pop up and sorta see if it did what it was
supposed to do.  If you are totally blind, programming the applet should
be straight-forward enough, but you may need to get your instructor or a
sighted assistant to help you be sure a graphical applet does what is't
programmed to do.  As for the console apps, they will just run from the
command line with no trouble.  If you are stuck with Windows, there should
still be a work-around, even if all you have at your disposal is the Jaws
cursor.
Hope this helps at least a little.

Lorenzo

It's a bird..
It's a plane..
No, it's KernelMan, faster than a speeding bullet, to your rescue.
Doing new kernel versions in under 5 seconds flat..
	-- Linus, in the announcement for 1.3.27

Re: suggestion?

[Doug]

One thing that works nicely on windows ...
Install cygwin and you have the whole GNU environment.
Install java for windows and you also have java.
Open the cygwin shell and you're in bash, and there
you have emacs, vi, and everything else you need.

   -- Doug

Re: suggestion?

[Igor Gueths]

Btw, if anyone tried to find out more about Freenet, I apologize. Thanks
Luke for allerting me to the mistake. The url is actually
http://freenet.sourceforge.net. Or another one to check out is
www.freenetproject.org, however I don't think that is maintained anymore.

May you code in the power of the source,
may the kernel, libraries, and utilities be with you,
throughout all distributions until the end of the epoch.

On Fri, 23 May 2003, Doug wrote:

> One thing that works nicely on windows ...
> Install cygwin and you have the whole GNU environment.
> Install java for windows and you also have java.
> Open the cygwin shell and you're in bash, and there
> you have emacs, vi, and everything else you need.
>
>    -- Doug
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: suggestion?

[Doug]

Check these out ...

http://jdee.sunsite.dk/
http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/j-emacs/?dwzone=java
http://www.cs.unb.ca/courses/gen/homeinst.linux.html

There are tons of environments built in emacs
for java development, do a search on keywords
emacs and java. I guarantee you that you can
compile java with only emacs, see the console
output, and program output too. The problem
is GUI, but GUI does not equal Java ... it's
just the GUI component of Java. Just like on
windows you can write a win32 command line
app, or a GUI app ...

   -- Doug