free programming language

free programming language

[Alex Snow]

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Hi.
I am looking for a programming language for windows that is both free and easy to learn for a beginning programmer.  Does such a language exist?

---

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Re: free programming language

[Janina Sajka]

Well, now. You want it to be free and focused on Windows. And, you're 
asking on a linux list because we believe in free here, and Windows 
doesn't? Is that it?

Well, you might want to try cygwin, I suppose. It is a way of putting 
linux up on Windows, and it is accessible via a hardware speech 
synthesizer and a DOS screen reader. And it does come with bash, and it 
may even support Perl.

Hmmm, there's another one--Perl. 

Why not just go to goole and do a search? Open http://www.google.com and 
put something like "free Windows programming language" in your search 
string and see if there's anything out there?
 On Sun, 10 Mar 2002, Alex 
Snow wrote:

> Hi.
> I am looking for a programming language for windows that is both free and easy to learn for a beginning programmer.  Does such a language exist?
> 
> ---

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: free programming language

[Gregory Nowak]

How about BASIC?
Greg


On Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 01:25:38PM -0500, Alex Snow wrote:
> Hi.
> I am looking for a programming language for windows that is both free and easy to learn for a beginning programmer.  Does such a language exist?
> 
> ---

Re: free programming language

[Igor Gueths]

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Hi Alex. Why don't you use C under linux? You can read lots of docs on C from code.box.sk. 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Alex Snow 
  To: speakup@braille.uwo.ca 
  Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 1:25 PM
  Subject: free programming language


  Hi.
  I am looking for a programming language for windows that is both free and easy to learn for a beginning programmer.  Does such a language exist?
   
  ---

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Re: free programming language

[Alex Snow]

I would use, and want to learn, basic, if there was a free Compiler and/or
IDE for basic under winblows.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 2:56 PM
Subject: Re: free programming language


> How about BASIC?
> Greg
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 01:25:38PM -0500, Alex Snow wrote:
> > Hi.
> > I am looking for a programming language for windows that is both free
and easy to learn for a beginning programmer.  Does such a language exist?
> >
> > ---
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: free programming language

[Gregory Nowak]

Try:
http://www.darkbasic.com
. Hth.
Greg


On Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 04:12:44PM -0500, Alex Snow wrote:
> I would use, and want to learn, basic, if there was a free Compiler and/or
> IDE for basic under winblows.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 2:56 PM
> Subject: Re: free programming language
> 
> 
> > How about BASIC?
> > Greg
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 01:25:38PM -0500, Alex Snow wrote:
> > > Hi.
> > > I am looking for a programming language for windows that is both free
> and easy to learn for a beginning programmer.  Does such a language exist?
> > >
> > > ---
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: free programming language

[jwantz]

Hi Janina,
You beat me on this one--I was going to make the same suggestion.  Not 
only does cygwin support linux/unix calls but it will do WINDOWS 
specific things like dialog boxes.

    Jim
On Sun, 10 Mar 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:

> Well, now. You want it to be free and focused on Windows. And, you're 
> asking on a linux list because we believe in free here, and Windows 
> doesn't? Is that it?
> 
> Well, you might want to try cygwin, I suppose. It is a way of putting 
> linux up on Windows, and it is accessible via a hardware speech 
> synthesizer and a DOS screen reader. And it does come with bash, and it 
> may even support Perl.
> 
> Hmmm, there's another one--Perl. 
> 
> Why not just go to goole and do a search? Open http://www.google.com and 
> put something like "free Windows programming language" in your search 
> string and see if there's anything out there?
>  On Sun, 10 Mar 2002, Alex 
> Snow wrote:
> 
> > Hi.
> > I am looking for a programming language for windows that is both free and easy to learn for a beginning programmer.  Does such a language exist?
> > 
> > ---
> 
> 

Re: free programming language

[jwantz]

Hi Alex,
While BASIC sounds like a good starting language in my opinion it is 
not.  First, it is very non-standard (no two BASIC interpreters or 
compilers are alike).  Second, file i/o in most BASICs is really rather 
painful.  As far as I know, the only BASIC widely used in WINDOWS is 
Visual BASIC which is hardly free!

     Jim Wantz
n Sun, 10 Mar 2002, Alex Snow wrote:

> I would use, and want to learn, basic, if there was a free Compiler and/or
> IDE for basic under winblows.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 2:56 PM
> Subject: Re: free programming language
> 
> 
> > How about BASIC?
> > Greg
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 01:25:38PM -0500, Alex Snow wrote:
> > > Hi.
> > > I am looking for a programming language for windows that is both free
> and easy to learn for a beginning programmer.  Does such a language exist?
> > >
> > > ---
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: free programming language

[Gregory Nowak]

Since we're on opinions, in my opinion c or c++ are not good languages to begin with. I believe from personal experience that it is best to start with something like basic, and then move on to languages like c or c++ where the concepts you learned from BASIC will help you advance in higher languages faster.
Greg


On Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 06:48:35PM -0500, jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
> Hi Alex,
> While BASIC sounds like a good starting language in my opinion it is 
> not.  First, it is very non-standard (no two BASIC interpreters or 
> compilers are alike).  Second, file i/o in most BASICs is really rather 
> painful.  As far as I know, the only BASIC widely used in WINDOWS is 
> Visual BASIC which is hardly free!
> 
>      Jim Wantz
> n Sun, 10 Mar 2002, Alex Snow wrote:
> 
> > I would use, and want to learn, basic, if there was a free Compiler and/or
> > IDE for basic under winblows.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 2:56 PM
> > Subject: Re: free programming language
> > 
> > 
> > > How about BASIC?
> > > Greg
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 01:25:38PM -0500, Alex Snow wrote:
> > > > Hi.
> > > > I am looking for a programming language for windows that is both free
> > and easy to learn for a beginning programmer.  Does such a language exist?
> > > >
> > > > ---
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: free programming language

[Ameer Armaly]

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Yes, visual basic is very easy, but only if you have msdn.  Otherwise, you're kind of stuck, because you don't know where to start.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Alex Snow 
  To: speakup@braille.uwo.ca 
  Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 1:25 PM
  Subject: free programming language


  Hi.
  I am looking for a programming language for windows that is both free and easy to learn for a beginning programmer.  Does such a language exist?

  ---

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1554 bytes --]

Re: free programming language

[Ron Marriage]

Having taught programming languages for over 30 years, I
figure to weigh in with my own 2 cents.

First off, if you don't know a programming language now,
forget about the compilers, IDEs, etc.
You don't want to learn an IDE you want to know how to
program.  The skills that you learn will transfer to most
other languages.

Basic is available in many flavors, pick one, so it's
interpreted, why should you care.  Believe it or not you
won't develope the newest MS office suite with it or with
any language you start out with.

What you can learn though even with an interpreted language
is logic, methodology, and a background that will carry over
to more advanced languages, where you will have the chance
of doing something worthwhile.

Tie yourself to an IDE now and you won't learn programming
ever.  You also won't develope anything more than what you
can do by pushing buttons.  An IDE is good only after you
learn how to program.

Get basic, play with it a while, then try C or some other
higher language.

Lots of languages out there and most work great for specific
things. Not eveything is done in C.

After you have some basic skills, decide what it is that you
want to do.  You might realize then that the language you
want is much easier to decide upon.

Ron



Alex Snow wrote:
> 
> I would use, and want to learn, basic, if there was a free Compiler and/or
> IDE for basic under winblows.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 2:56 PM
> Subject: Re: free programming language
> 
> > How about BASIC?
> > Greg

-- 
===
Ron Marriage
Home Page http://www.seidata.com/~marriage/
Blind Links http://www.seidata.com/~marriage/rblind.html
Linux  http://www.seidata.com/~seilug/
Email  mailto:marriage@seidata.com

Win door prizes!  Meet old and new friends!  
See the latest technology and gadgets for your everyday
living!  
Learn how the NFB is helping to knock down barriers 
to make your life better! 
All this and more at the 2002 NFB National Convention 
July 3 - 9 -- for details go to: http://www.nfbk.org

Re: free programming language

[Angelo Sonnesso]

There are some free "c" compilers around.
I suggest you check with the blind programming list.
They have plenty to download, and are a very helpful group.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Snow" <alex_snow@gmx.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 1:25 PM
Subject: free programming language


Hi.
I am looking for a programming language for windows that is both free and
easy to learn for a beginning programmer.  Does such a language exist?

---

Re: free programming language

[Pete]

  What are ides?
  Pete

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Marriage" <marriage@seidata.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 8:34 PM
Subject: Re: free programming language


Having taught programming languages for over 30 years, I
figure to weigh in with my own 2 cents.

First off, if you don't know a programming language now,
forget about the compilers, IDEs, etc.
You don't want to learn an IDE you want to know how to
program.  The skills that you learn will transfer to most
other languages.

Basic is available in many flavors, pick one, so it's
interpreted, why should you care.  Believe it or not you
won't develope the newest MS office suite with it or with
any language you start out with.

What you can learn though even with an interpreted language
is logic, methodology, and a background that will carry over
to more advanced languages, where you will have the chance
of doing something worthwhile.

Tie yourself to an IDE now and you won't learn programming
ever.  You also won't develope anything more than what you
can do by pushing buttons.  An IDE is good only after you
learn how to program.

Get basic, play with it a while, then try C or some other
higher language.

Lots of languages out there and most work great for specific
things. Not eveything is done in C.

After you have some basic skills, decide what it is that you
want to do.  You might realize then that the language you
want is much easier to decide upon.

Ron



Alex Snow wrote:
>
> I would use, and want to learn, basic, if there was a free Compiler and/or
> IDE for basic under winblows.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 2:56 PM
> Subject: Re: free programming language
>
> > How about BASIC?
> > Greg

--
===
Ron Marriage
Home Page http://www.seidata.com/~marriage/
Blind Links http://www.seidata.com/~marriage/rblind.html
Linux  http://www.seidata.com/~seilug/
Email  mailto:marriage@seidata.com

Win door prizes!  Meet old and new friends!
See the latest technology and gadgets for your everyday
living!
Learn how the NFB is helping to knock down barriers
to make your life better!
All this and more at the 2002 NFB National Convention
July 3 - 9 -- for details go to: http://www.nfbk.org

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: free programming language

[Charles Hallenbeck]

Like Janina said yesterday, I do not like to just say "I agree"
either. But I too have taught programming for over 30 years and I
agree with Ron's very sensible advice below.

Someone once said that you can write good programs in any
language, but it is easier in C than in most others. But you can
also write bad programs in any language, and that too is easier
in C than in most others.

Chuck

On Sun, 10 Mar 2002, Ron Marriage wrote:

> Having taught programming languages for over 30 years, I
> figure to weigh in with my own 2 cents.
>
> First off, if you don't know a programming language now,
> forget about the compilers, IDEs, etc.
> You don't want to learn an IDE you want to know how to
> program.  The skills that you learn will transfer to most
> other languages.
>
> Basic is available in many flavors, pick one, so it's
> interpreted, why should you care.  Believe it or not you
> won't develope the newest MS office suite with it or with
> any language you start out with.
>
> What you can learn though even with an interpreted language
> is logic, methodology, and a background that will carry over
> to more advanced languages, where you will have the chance
> of doing something worthwhile.
>
> Tie yourself to an IDE now and you won't learn programming
> ever.  You also won't develope anything more than what you
> can do by pushing buttons.  An IDE is good only after you
> learn how to program.
>
> Get basic, play with it a while, then try C or some other
> higher language.
>
> Lots of languages out there and most work great for specific
> things. Not eveything is done in C.
>
> After you have some basic skills, decide what it is that you
> want to do.  You might realize then that the language you
> want is much easier to decide upon.
>
> Ron
>
>
>
> Alex Snow wrote:
> >
> > I would use, and want to learn, basic, if there was a free Compiler and/or
> > IDE for basic under winblows.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 2:56 PM
> > Subject: Re: free programming language
> >
> > > How about BASIC?
> > > Greg
>
> --
> ===
> Ron Marriage
> Home Page http://www.seidata.com/~marriage/
> Blind Links http://www.seidata.com/~marriage/rblind.html
> Linux  http://www.seidata.com/~seilug/
> Email  mailto:marriage@seidata.com
>
> Win door prizes!  Meet old and new friends!
> See the latest technology and gadgets for your everyday
> living!
> Learn how the NFB is helping to knock down barriers
> to make your life better!
> All this and more at the 2002 NFB National Convention
> July 3 - 9 -- for details go to: http://www.nfbk.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Visit me at http://www.valstar.net/~hallenbeck
The Moon is Waning Crescent (6% of Full)

Re: free programming language

[Charles Hallenbeck]

Integrated Development Environments.

On Mon, 11 Mar 2002, Pete wrote:

>
>   What are ides?
>   Pete

Visit me at http://www.valstar.net/~hallenbeck
The Moon is Waning Crescent (6% of Full)

Re: free programming language

[Ron Marriage]

Integrated development environment.

Pete wrote:
> 
>   What are ides?
>   Pete
> 

===
Ron Marriage
Home Page http://www.seidata.com/~marriage/
Blind Links http://www.seidata.com/~marriage/rblind.html
Linux  http://www.seidata.com/~seilug/
Email  mailto:marriage@seidata.com

Win door prizes!  Meet old and new friends!  
See the latest technology and gadgets for your everyday
living!  
Learn how the NFB is helping to knock down barriers 
to make your life better! 
All this and more at the 2002 NFB National Convention 
July 3 - 9 -- for details go to: http://www.nfbk.org

Re: free programming language

[Pete]

  
  Sheash!  
  Sounds intimadating.  
Pete  

From: "Charles Hallenbeck" 

Integrated Development Environments.

On Mon, 11 Mar 2002, Pete wrote:

>
>   What are ides?
>   Pete

Re: free programming language

[Pete]

  
  OK,  Thanks for the links!  
  Pete  
From: "Ron Marriage" <marriage@seidata.com>

Integrated development environment.

Pete wrote:
> 
>   What are ides?
>   Pete
> 

===
Ron Marriage
Home Page http://www.seidata.com/~marriage/
Blind Links http://www.seidata.com/~marriage/rblind.html
Linux  http://www.seidata.com/~seilug/
Email  mailto:marriage@seidata.com

Win door prizes!  Meet old and new friends!  
See the latest technology and gadgets for your everyday
living!  
Learn how the NFB is helping to knock down barriers 
to make your life better! 
All this and more at the 2002 NFB National Convention 
July 3 - 9 -- for details go to: http://www.nfbk.org

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: free programming language

[jwantz]

Hi Greg,
I definitely disagree.  BASIC teaches bad programming habits like 
FORTRAN i.e. non-structured programming.  The problem with C is not the 
language, but that most people learning C start by reading Kernighan and 
Richie.  I have been programming in C since 1986 but it took me almost 
half of that time to unlearn bad habits I picked up from BASIC and 
FORTRAN.  Now, one could make a case for Pascal as your first language 
but I really think BASIC is a bad idea.  Sure, you might be able to 
accomplish certain tasks easier in BASIC than in C, but the time you 
spend in learning C will make you a much better programmer in the long 
run.
     Jim Wantz
On Sun, 10 Mar 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:

> Since we're on opinions, in my opinion c or c++ are not good languages to begin with. I believe from personal experience that it is best to start with something like basic, and then move on to languages like c or c++ where the concepts you learned from BASIC will help you advance in higher languages faster.
> Greg
> 
> 
> On Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 06:48:35PM -0500, jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
> > Hi Alex,
> > While BASIC sounds like a good starting language in my opinion it is 
> > not.  First, it is very non-standard (no two BASIC interpreters or 
> > compilers are alike).  Second, file i/o in most BASICs is really rather 
> > painful.  As far as I know, the only BASIC widely used in WINDOWS is 
> > Visual BASIC which is hardly free!
> > 
> >      Jim Wantz
> > n Sun, 10 Mar 2002, Alex Snow wrote:
> > 
> > > I would use, and want to learn, basic, if there was a free Compiler and/or
> > > IDE for basic under winblows.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 2:56 PM
> > > Subject: Re: free programming language
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > How about BASIC?
> > > > Greg
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 01:25:38PM -0500, Alex Snow wrote:
> > > > > Hi.
> > > > > I am looking for a programming language for windows that is both free
> > > and easy to learn for a beginning programmer.  Does such a language exist?
> > > > >
> > > > > ---
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: free programming language

[jwantz]

Hi Ron,
I don't understand what you are saying.  About an IDE.  How does an IDE 
change the underlying language?  A nice thing about a good IDE is that 
it has all of the advantages of an interpreted language with none of the 
drawbacks.  You get almost immediate notification of errors along in 
some cases the ability to get detailed explanations of the errors.
On Sun, 
10 Mar 2002, Ron Marriage wrote:

> Having taught programming languages for over 30 years, I
> figure to weigh in with my own 2 cents.
> 
> First off, if you don't know a programming language now,
> forget about the compilers, IDEs, etc.
> You don't want to learn an IDE you want to know how to
> program.  The skills that you learn will transfer to most
> other languages.
> 
> Basic is available in many flavors, pick one, so it's
> interpreted, why should you care.  Believe it or not you
> won't develope the newest MS office suite with it or with
> any language you start out with.
> 
> What you can learn though even with an interpreted language
> is logic, methodology, and a background that will carry over
> to more advanced languages, where you will have the chance
> of doing something worthwhile.
> 
> Tie yourself to an IDE now and you won't learn programming
> ever.  You also won't develope anything more than what you
> can do by pushing buttons.  An IDE is good only after you
> learn how to program.
> 
> Get basic, play with it a while, then try C or some other
> higher language.
> 
> Lots of languages out there and most work great for specific
> things. Not eveything is done in C.
> 
> After you have some basic skills, decide what it is that you
> want to do.  You might realize then that the language you
> want is much easier to decide upon.
> 
> Ron
> 
> 
> 
> Alex Snow wrote:
> > 
> > I would use, and want to learn, basic, if there was a free Compiler and/or
> > IDE for basic under winblows.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 2:56 PM
> > Subject: Re: free programming language
> > 
> > > How about BASIC?
> > > Greg
> 
> 

Re: free programming language

[Ameer Armaly]

Very true.  I just wrote my first little sample program last night, and I
did make a few errors, and it told me what I'd done.  Other languages like
jfw script do the same.
----- Original Message -----
From: <jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 9:56 AM
Subject: Re: free programming language


> Hi Ron,
> I don't understand what you are saying.  About an IDE.  How does an IDE
> change the underlying language?  A nice thing about a good IDE is that
> it has all of the advantages of an interpreted language with none of the
> drawbacks.  You get almost immediate notification of errors along in
> some cases the ability to get detailed explanations of the errors.
> On Sun,
> 10 Mar 2002, Ron Marriage wrote:
>
> > Having taught programming languages for over 30 years, I
> > figure to weigh in with my own 2 cents.
> >
> > First off, if you don't know a programming language now,
> > forget about the compilers, IDEs, etc.
> > You don't want to learn an IDE you want to know how to
> > program.  The skills that you learn will transfer to most
> > other languages.
> >
> > Basic is available in many flavors, pick one, so it's
> > interpreted, why should you care.  Believe it or not you
> > won't develope the newest MS office suite with it or with
> > any language you start out with.
> >
> > What you can learn though even with an interpreted language
> > is logic, methodology, and a background that will carry over
> > to more advanced languages, where you will have the chance
> > of doing something worthwhile.
> >
> > Tie yourself to an IDE now and you won't learn programming
> > ever.  You also won't develope anything more than what you
> > can do by pushing buttons.  An IDE is good only after you
> > learn how to program.
> >
> > Get basic, play with it a while, then try C or some other
> > higher language.
> >
> > Lots of languages out there and most work great for specific
> > things. Not eveything is done in C.
> >
> > After you have some basic skills, decide what it is that you
> > want to do.  You might realize then that the language you
> > want is much easier to decide upon.
> >
> > Ron
> >
> >
> >
> > Alex Snow wrote:
> > >
> > > I would use, and want to learn, basic, if there was a free Compiler
and/or
> > > IDE for basic under winblows.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 2:56 PM
> > > Subject: Re: free programming language
> > >
> > > > How about BASIC?
> > > > Greg
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: free programming language

[jwantz]

Hi,
An IDE means an integrated development environment--you basically have 
an editor, error checker and compiler rolled into one package.  The 
first really good IDE was probably TURBO C under MSDOS.  The most 
sophisticated IDE of which I am aware is code warrior that has the 
capability of compiling C, C++ and Java for WINDOWS, MACOS and linux.

    Jim Wantz
On 
Mon, 11 Mar 2002, Pete wrote:

> 
>   What are ides?
>   Pete
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ron Marriage" <marriage@seidata.com>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 8:34 PM
> Subject: Re: free programming language
> 
> 
> Having taught programming languages for over 30 years, I
> figure to weigh in with my own 2 cents.
> 
> First off, if you don't know a programming language now,
> forget about the compilers, IDEs, etc.
> You don't want to learn an IDE you want to know how to
> program.  The skills that you learn will transfer to most
> other languages.
> 
> Basic is available in many flavors, pick one, so it's
> interpreted, why should you care.  Believe it or not you
> won't develope the newest MS office suite with it or with
> any language you start out with.
> 
> What you can learn though even with an interpreted language
> is logic, methodology, and a background that will carry over
> to more advanced languages, where you will have the chance
> of doing something worthwhile.
> 
> Tie yourself to an IDE now and you won't learn programming
> ever.  You also won't develope anything more than what you
> can do by pushing buttons.  An IDE is good only after you
> learn how to program.
> 
> Get basic, play with it a while, then try C or some other
> higher language.
> 
> Lots of languages out there and most work great for specific
> things. Not eveything is done in C.
> 
> After you have some basic skills, decide what it is that you
> want to do.  You might realize then that the language you
> want is much easier to decide upon.
> 
> Ron
> 
> 
> 
> Alex Snow wrote:
> >
> > I would use, and want to learn, basic, if there was a free Compiler and/or
> > IDE for basic under winblows.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 2:56 PM
> > Subject: Re: free programming language
> >
> > > How about BASIC?
> > > Greg
> 
> --
> ===
> Ron Marriage
> Home Page http://www.seidata.com/~marriage/
> Blind Links http://www.seidata.com/~marriage/rblind.html
> Linux  http://www.seidata.com/~seilug/
> Email  mailto:marriage@seidata.com
> 
> Win door prizes!  Meet old and new friends!
> See the latest technology and gadgets for your everyday
> living!
> Learn how the NFB is helping to knock down barriers
> to make your life better!
> All this and more at the 2002 NFB National Convention
> July 3 - 9 -- for details go to: http://www.nfbk.org
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: free programming language

[Thomas Ward]

Hi, to begin with it all depends on what you constitute as easy and as
freeIt also depends on what you want to write with that language.
My advice here? Go with C or Java. They are universal programming languages,
and you can get tools to write programs in those languages for almost
nothing.





----- Original Message -----
From: Alex Snow <alex_snow@gmx.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 1:25 PM
Subject: free programming language


Hi.
I am looking for a programming language for windows that is both free and
easy to learn for a beginning programmer.  Does such a language exist?

---

Re: free programming language

[jwantz]

Hi Tom,
If he is going to program in Java on WINDOWS he'll have to use Swing.  
Things are much nicer running Java under Linux.  The only thing I don't 
like about Java is the case mixed method names i.e. 
System.out.println().  Speakup is much better than any of the DOS or 
WINDOWS screen readers because the default pitch change with 
capitalization is more pronounced.  Real nice for source listings!

     Jim Wantz
On Mon, 
11 Mar 2002, Thomas Ward wrote:

> Hi, to begin with it all depends on what you constitute as easy and as
> freeIt also depends on what you want to write with that language.
> My advice here? Go with C or Java. They are universal programming languages,
> and you can get tools to write programs in those languages for almost
> nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Alex Snow <alex_snow@gmx.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 1:25 PM
> Subject: free programming language
> 
> 
> Hi.
> I am looking for a programming language for windows that is both free and
> easy to learn for a beginning programmer.  Does such a language exist?
> 
> ---
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: free programming language

[Janina Sajka]

Hey, Jim:

If K&R is a bad way to learn C, what's a better way?

I've had K&R on my bookshelf on a 3.5 floppy for years! Even used it in 
class once.

On Mon, 11 Mar 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:

> Hi Greg,
> I definitely disagree.  BASIC teaches bad programming habits like 
> FORTRAN i.e. non-structured programming.  The problem with C is not the 
> language, but that most people learning C start by reading Kernighan and 
> Richie.  I have been programming in C since 1986 but it took me almost 
> half of that time to unlearn bad habits I picked up from BASIC and 
> FORTRAN.  Now, one could make a case for Pascal as your first language 
> but I really think BASIC is a bad idea.  Sure, you might be able to 
> accomplish certain tasks easier in BASIC than in C, but the time you 
> spend in learning C will make you a much better programmer in the long 
> run.
>      Jim Wantz
> On Sun, 10 Mar 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> 
> > Since we're on opinions, in my opinion c or c++ are not good languages to begin with. I believe from personal experience that it is best to start with something like basic, and then move on to languages like c or c++ where the concepts you learned from BASIC will help you advance in higher languages faster.
> > Greg
> > 
> > 
> > On Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 06:48:35PM -0500, jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
> > > Hi Alex,
> > > While BASIC sounds like a good starting language in my opinion it is 
> > > not.  First, it is very non-standard (no two BASIC interpreters or 
> > > compilers are alike).  Second, file i/o in most BASICs is really rather 
> > > painful.  As far as I know, the only BASIC widely used in WINDOWS is 
> > > Visual BASIC which is hardly free!
> > > 
> > >      Jim Wantz
> > > n Sun, 10 Mar 2002, Alex Snow wrote:
> > > 
> > > > I would use, and want to learn, basic, if there was a free Compiler and/or
> > > > IDE for basic under winblows.
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu>
> > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 2:56 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: free programming language
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > How about BASIC?
> > > > > Greg
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 01:25:38PM -0500, Alex Snow wrote:
> > > > > > Hi.
> > > > > > I am looking for a programming language for windows that is both free
> > > > and easy to learn for a beginning programmer.  Does such a language exist?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ---
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: free programming language

[Pete]

  
  What about ADA as a starting point for learning programming?  
  Pete  

Re: free programming language

[Pete]

  This subject brings another option to mind.  What about the freedos
project, doesn't it come whith a compiler or something?
  Pete

Re: free programming language

[jwantz]

Hi Janina,
K&R is an excellent book--just not a beginner's book.  Something like C 
Primer Plus is much easier for a beginner.     Jim
On Mon, 11 Mar 2002, 
Janina Sajka wrote:

> Hey, Jim:
> 
> If K&R is a bad way to learn C, what's a better way?
> 
> I've had K&R on my bookshelf on a 3.5 floppy for years! Even used it in 
> class once.
> 
> On Mon, 11 Mar 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
> 
> > Hi Greg,
> > I definitely disagree.  BASIC teaches bad programming habits like 
> > FORTRAN i.e. non-structured programming.  The problem with C is not the 
> > language, but that most people learning C start by reading Kernighan and 
> > Richie.  I have been programming in C since 1986 but it took me almost 
> > half of that time to unlearn bad habits I picked up from BASIC and 
> > FORTRAN.  Now, one could make a case for Pascal as your first language 
> > but I really think BASIC is a bad idea.  Sure, you might be able to 
> > accomplish certain tasks easier in BASIC than in C, but the time you 
> > spend in learning C will make you a much better programmer in the long 
> > run.
> >      Jim Wantz
> > On Sun, 10 Mar 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > 
> > > Since we're on opinions, in my opinion c or c++ are not good languages to begin with. I believe from personal experience that it is best to start with something like basic, and then move on to languages like c or c++ where the concepts you learned from BASIC will help you advance in higher languages faster.
> > > Greg
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 06:48:35PM -0500, jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
> > > > Hi Alex,
> > > > While BASIC sounds like a good starting language in my opinion it is 
> > > > not.  First, it is very non-standard (no two BASIC interpreters or 
> > > > compilers are alike).  Second, file i/o in most BASICs is really rather 
> > > > painful.  As far as I know, the only BASIC widely used in WINDOWS is 
> > > > Visual BASIC which is hardly free!
> > > > 
> > > >      Jim Wantz
> > > > n Sun, 10 Mar 2002, Alex Snow wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > I would use, and want to learn, basic, if there was a free Compiler and/or
> > > > > IDE for basic under winblows.
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu>
> > > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 2:56 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: free programming language
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > > How about BASIC?
> > > > > > Greg
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 01:25:38PM -0500, Alex Snow wrote:
> > > > > > > Hi.
> > > > > > > I am looking for a programming language for windows that is both free
> > > > > and easy to learn for a beginning programmer.  Does such a language exist?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ---
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> 

Re: free programming language

[jwantz]

Hi Pete,
I don't know Ada myself, but I've seen Ada listings and articles in 
programming magazines like Dr. Dobb's Journal.  It seems syntactically 
complex, much more so than say C++.

     Jim
On Mon, 11 Mar 2002, Pete wrote:

>   
>   What about ADA as a starting point for learning programming?  
>   Pete  
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: free programming language

[Janina Sajka]

Isn't ADA for guiding missles and that kind of application?

On Mon, 11 Mar 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:

> Hi Pete,
> I don't know Ada myself, but I've seen Ada listings and articles in 
> programming magazines like Dr. Dobb's Journal.  It seems syntactically 
> complex, much more so than say C++.
> 
>      Jim
> On Mon, 11 Mar 2002, Pete wrote:
> 
> >   
> >   What about ADA as a starting point for learning programming?  
> >   Pete  
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: free programming language

[jwantz]

Hi Janina,
Supposedly but I knew a programmer that was working on a big FAA project 
using Ada.  I made her not happy with me when I predicted they'd fail.  
It did.  If Ada was so great for defense applications how come most of 
the people working for DoD kept asking for exceptions to their Ada 
standard?  They normally wanted to work using C.
     Jim
On Mon, 11 Mar 2002, 
Janina Sajka wrote:

> Isn't ADA for guiding missles and that kind of application?
> 
> On Mon, 11 Mar 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
> 
> > Hi Pete,
> > I don't know Ada myself, but I've seen Ada listings and articles in 
> > programming magazines like Dr. Dobb's Journal.  It seems syntactically 
> > complex, much more so than say C++.
> > 
> >      Jim
> > On Mon, 11 Mar 2002, Pete wrote:
> > 
> > >   
> > >   What about ADA as a starting point for learning programming?  
> > >   Pete  
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> 

Re: free programming language

[Janina Sajka]

In truth, I know very little about ADA. I am aware, however, that I don't 
hear much about it anymore. Haven't for years, actually.

On Mon, 11 Mar 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:

> Hi Janina,
> Supposedly but I knew a programmer that was working on a big FAA project 
> using Ada.  I made her not happy with me when I predicted they'd fail.  
> It did.  If Ada was so great for defense applications how come most of 
> the people working for DoD kept asking for exceptions to their Ada 
> standard?  They normally wanted to work using C.
>      Jim
> On Mon, 11 Mar 2002, 
> Janina Sajka wrote:
> 
> > Isn't ADA for guiding missles and that kind of application?
> > 
> > On Mon, 11 Mar 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
> > 
> > > Hi Pete,
> > > I don't know Ada myself, but I've seen Ada listings and articles in 
> > > programming magazines like Dr. Dobb's Journal.  It seems syntactically 
> > > complex, much more so than say C++.
> > > 
> > >      Jim
> > > On Mon, 11 Mar 2002, Pete wrote:
> > > 
> > > >   
> > > >   What about ADA as a starting point for learning programming?  
> > > >   Pete  
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: free programming language

[Alex Snow]

Yeah, I think freedos has a compiler.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pete" <persuric@ameritech.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: free programming language


> 
>   This subject brings another option to mind.  What about the freedos
> project, doesn't it come whith a compiler or something?
>   Pete
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: free programming language

[Alex Snow]

I have some free C++ ide I downloaded a while ago an never touched.  DevC++
I think it was.  It uses the mingw compiler.  I'll have to give it a try.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Ward" <tward@bright.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 10:30 AM
Subject: Re: free programming language


> Hi, to begin with it all depends on what you constitute as easy and as
> freeIt also depends on what you want to write with that language.
> My advice here? Go with C or Java. They are universal programming
languages,
> and you can get tools to write programs in those languages for almost
> nothing.
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Alex Snow <alex_snow@gmx.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 1:25 PM
> Subject: free programming language
>
>
> Hi.
> I am looking for a programming language for windows that is both free and
> easy to learn for a beginning programmer.  Does such a language exist?
>
> ---
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: free programming language

[Yvonne Smith]

I don't actually believe I'm getting involved in this discussion, since,
again, this is my oppinion and based on what I personally have used over
the years. 

I agree with someones previous comment on basic. It's quite non-standard
and trying to work out what commands are available, and how in your
version of basic is enough to give you a headache. At least that's
certainly what I found.

My advice is either perl or python. I currently like python more than
perl, but unless your screen reader can tell you how much each line is
indented by, it could be a bit of a pain. 

The only difference from other comments here is that if you find sigwin
speech unfriendly, there are native windows implementations of perl and
python. I've never used them, but I know that active state for one has a
windows version of both.

Re: free programming language

[Gregory Nowak]

An ide or integrated development enviornment is a visual interface that automatically calls the editor, compiler, debugger ETC. without the programmer needing to learn commands to do theese things. In my experience, they usually don't prove to be very accessible, and it takes more time to use them then it does to just edit and compile the code from the command line. Ron is right about not getting tangled up in ides until you know the programming language well enough. I myself had the fortune of starting out with basic on the braille 'n speak, and then adding to that by using basica under DOS.
Greg


On Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 04:09:52AM -0500, Pete wrote:
> 
>   What are ides?
>   Pete
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ron Marriage" <marriage@seidata.com>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 8:34 PM
> Subject: Re: free programming language
> 
> 
> Having taught programming languages for over 30 years, I
> figure to weigh in with my own 2 cents.
> 
> First off, if you don't know a programming language now,
> forget about the compilers, IDEs, etc.
> You don't want to learn an IDE you want to know how to
> program.  The skills that you learn will transfer to most
> other languages.
> 
> Basic is available in many flavors, pick one, so it's
> interpreted, why should you care.  Believe it or not you
> won't develope the newest MS office suite with it or with
> any language you start out with.
> 
> What you can learn though even with an interpreted language
> is logic, methodology, and a background that will carry over
> to more advanced languages, where you will have the chance
> of doing something worthwhile.
> 
> Tie yourself to an IDE now and you won't learn programming
> ever.  You also won't develope anything more than what you
> can do by pushing buttons.  An IDE is good only after you
> learn how to program.
> 
> Get basic, play with it a while, then try C or some other
> higher language.
> 
> Lots of languages out there and most work great for specific
> things. Not eveything is done in C.
> 
> After you have some basic skills, decide what it is that you
> want to do.  You might realize then that the language you
> want is much easier to decide upon.
> 
> Ron
> 
> 
> 
> Alex Snow wrote:
> >
> > I would use, and want to learn, basic, if there was a free Compiler and/or
> > IDE for basic under winblows.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 2:56 PM
> > Subject: Re: free programming language
> >
> > > How about BASIC?
> > > Greg
> 
> --
> ===
> Ron Marriage
> Home Page http://www.seidata.com/~marriage/
> Blind Links http://www.seidata.com/~marriage/rblind.html
> Linux  http://www.seidata.com/~seilug/
> Email  mailto:marriage@seidata.com
> 
> Win door prizes!  Meet old and new friends!
> See the latest technology and gadgets for your everyday
> living!
> Learn how the NFB is helping to knock down barriers
> to make your life better!
> All this and more at the 2002 NFB National Convention
> July 3 - 9 -- for details go to: http://www.nfbk.org
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: free programming language

[Gregory Nowak]

I didn't know that code warrior could compile code for gnu/linux. I worked with it in high school, and saw all the other target options except for that one.
Greg


On Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 10:07:46AM -0500, jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
> Hi,
> An IDE means an integrated development environment--you basically have 
> an editor, error checker and compiler rolled into one package.  The 
> first really good IDE was probably TURBO C under MSDOS.  The most 
> sophisticated IDE of which I am aware is code warrior that has the 
> capability of compiling C, C++ and Java for WINDOWS, MACOS and linux.
> 
>     Jim Wantz
> On 
> Mon, 11 Mar 2002, Pete wrote:
> 
> > 
> >   What are ides?
> >   Pete
> > 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ron Marriage" <marriage@seidata.com>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 8:34 PM
> > Subject: Re: free programming language
> > 
> > 
> > Having taught programming languages for over 30 years, I
> > figure to weigh in with my own 2 cents.
> > 
> > First off, if you don't know a programming language now,
> > forget about the compilers, IDEs, etc.
> > You don't want to learn an IDE you want to know how to
> > program.  The skills that you learn will transfer to most
> > other languages.
> > 
> > Basic is available in many flavors, pick one, so it's
> > interpreted, why should you care.  Believe it or not you
> > won't develope the newest MS office suite with it or with
> > any language you start out with.
> > 
> > What you can learn though even with an interpreted language
> > is logic, methodology, and a background that will carry over
> > to more advanced languages, where you will have the chance
> > of doing something worthwhile.
> > 
> > Tie yourself to an IDE now and you won't learn programming
> > ever.  You also won't develope anything more than what you
> > can do by pushing buttons.  An IDE is good only after you
> > learn how to program.
> > 
> > Get basic, play with it a while, then try C or some other
> > higher language.
> > 
> > Lots of languages out there and most work great for specific
> > things. Not eveything is done in C.
> > 
> > After you have some basic skills, decide what it is that you
> > want to do.  You might realize then that the language you
> > want is much easier to decide upon.
> > 
> > Ron
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Alex Snow wrote:
> > >
> > > I would use, and want to learn, basic, if there was a free Compiler and/or
> > > IDE for basic under winblows.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 2:56 PM
> > > Subject: Re: free programming language
> > >
> > > > How about BASIC?
> > > > Greg
> > 
> > --
> > ===
> > Ron Marriage
> > Home Page http://www.seidata.com/~marriage/
> > Blind Links http://www.seidata.com/~marriage/rblind.html
> > Linux  http://www.seidata.com/~seilug/
> > Email  mailto:marriage@seidata.com
> > 
> > Win door prizes!  Meet old and new friends!
> > See the latest technology and gadgets for your everyday
> > living!
> > Learn how the NFB is helping to knock down barriers
> > to make your life better!
> > All this and more at the 2002 NFB National Convention
> > July 3 - 9 -- for details go to: http://www.nfbk.org
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: free programming language

[Gregory Nowak]

Yeah, I've used dev-c++. Wasn't very accessible with wineyes, but it got the job done when there was nothing else to use.
Greg


On Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 03:40:26PM -0500, Alex Snow wrote:
> I have some free C++ ide I downloaded a while ago an never touched.  DevC++
> I think it was.  It uses the mingw compiler.  I'll have to give it a try.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Thomas Ward" <tward@bright.net>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 10:30 AM
> Subject: Re: free programming language
> 
> 
> > Hi, to begin with it all depends on what you constitute as easy and as
> > freeIt also depends on what you want to write with that language.
> > My advice here? Go with C or Java. They are universal programming
> languages,
> > and you can get tools to write programs in those languages for almost
> > nothing.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Alex Snow <alex_snow@gmx.net>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 1:25 PM
> > Subject: free programming language
> >
> >
> > Hi.
> > I am looking for a programming language for windows that is both free and
> > easy to learn for a beginning programmer.  Does such a language exist?
> >
> > ---
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: free programming language

[Rich Caloggero]

Outch!! ADA is syntactically complex, and has never gained much acceptance
in the software community. I'd really suggest Java. Its syntactically very
close to C, it is interpretive (although I'm not sure I've ever really seen
a read-eval-print sort of interpreter for it), and it is very very powerful.
It is free, modern, object oriented, continually being updated and improved,
and you can even do GUI stuff which is accessible. OK, so Freedom Scientific
has a bit of work to do in this area, but to get started, its pretty good.

There is an excellent book called "Thinking in Java", by Bruce Eckel
available for free, and published in HTML on the web at
http://www.mindview.net in the books section. There is also a very good book
called "Thinking in C++ on the same site". I have read these books and they
are excellent, and very accessible.

Hope this info helps.

                    Rich


----- Original Message -----
From: <jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: 11 March, 2002 11:38 AM
Subject: Re: free programming language


Hi Pete,
I don't know Ada myself, but I've seen Ada listings and articles in
programming magazines like Dr. Dobb's Journal.  It seems syntactically
complex, much more so than say C++.

     Jim
On Mon, 11 Mar 2002, Pete wrote:

>
>   What about ADA as a starting point for learning programming?
>   Pete
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: free programming language

[Alex Snow]

Thanks!
I'll have to look at those, since free programming books of good quality are
sometimes hard to come by.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Caloggero" <rjc@MIT.EDU>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 4:51 PM
Subject: Re: free programming language


> Outch!! ADA is syntactically complex, and has never gained much acceptance
> in the software community. I'd really suggest Java. Its syntactically very
> close to C, it is interpretive (although I'm not sure I've ever really
seen
> a read-eval-print sort of interpreter for it), and it is very very
powerful.
> It is free, modern, object oriented, continually being updated and
improved,
> and you can even do GUI stuff which is accessible. OK, so Freedom
Scientific
> has a bit of work to do in this area, but to get started, its pretty good.
>
> There is an excellent book called "Thinking in Java", by Bruce Eckel
> available for free, and published in HTML on the web at
> http://www.mindview.net in the books section. There is also a very good
book
> called "Thinking in C++ on the same site". I have read these books and
they
> are excellent, and very accessible.
>
> Hope this info helps.
>
>                     Rich
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: 11 March, 2002 11:38 AM
> Subject: Re: free programming language
>
>
> Hi Pete,
> I don't know Ada myself, but I've seen Ada listings and articles in
> programming magazines like Dr. Dobb's Journal.  It seems syntactically
> complex, much more so than say C++.
>
>      Jim
> On Mon, 11 Mar 2002, Pete wrote:
>
> >
> >   What about ADA as a starting point for learning programming?
> >   Pete
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

viruses

[Alex Snow]

Hi, Listers!
I was wondering if anyone else was getting virus infected emails from this
list.  I would just like to tell who ever is sending them, that They
shouldn't waist there time unless they want the mails sent back to them in
large quantities.

Re: free programming language

[randy turner]

hi chuck,
is there a basic for linux?
thanks in advance
randy

On Mon, 11 Mar 2002, Charles Hallenbeck wrote:

> Like Janina said yesterday, I do not like to just say "I agree"
> either. But I too have taught programming for over 30 years and I
> agree with Ron's very sensible advice below.
>
> Someone once said that you can write good programs in any
> language, but it is easier in C than in most others. But you can
> also write bad programs in any language, and that too is easier
> in C than in most others.
>
> Chuck
>
> On Sun, 10 Mar 2002, Ron Marriage wrote:
>
> > Having taught programming languages for over 30 years, I
> > figure to weigh in with my own 2 cents.
> >
> > First off, if you don't know a programming language now,
> > forget about the compilers, IDEs, etc.
> > You don't want to learn an IDE you want to know how to
> > program.  The skills that you learn will transfer to most
> > other languages.
> >
> > Basic is available in many flavors, pick one, so it's
> > interpreted, why should you care.  Believe it or not you
> > won't develope the newest MS office suite with it or with
> > any language you start out with.
> >
> > What you can learn though even with an interpreted language
> > is logic, methodology, and a background that will carry over
> > to more advanced languages, where you will have the chance
> > of doing something worthwhile.
> >
> > Tie yourself to an IDE now and you won't learn programming
> > ever.  You also won't develope anything more than what you
> > can do by pushing buttons.  An IDE is good only after you
> > learn how to program.
> >
> > Get basic, play with it a while, then try C or some other
> > higher language.
> >
> > Lots of languages out there and most work great for specific
> > things. Not eveything is done in C.
> >
> > After you have some basic skills, decide what it is that you
> > want to do.  You might realize then that the language you
> > want is much easier to decide upon.
> >
> > Ron
> >
> >
> >
> > Alex Snow wrote:
> > >
> > > I would use, and want to learn, basic, if there was a free Compiler and/or
> > > IDE for basic under winblows.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 2:56 PM
> > > Subject: Re: free programming language
> > >
> > > > How about BASIC?
> > > > Greg
> >
> > --
> > ===
> > Ron Marriage
> > Home Page http://www.seidata.com/~marriage/
> > Blind Links http://www.seidata.com/~marriage/rblind.html
> > Linux  http://www.seidata.com/~seilug/
> > Email  mailto:marriage@seidata.com
> >
> > Win door prizes!  Meet old and new friends!
> > See the latest technology and gadgets for your everyday
> > living!
> > Learn how the NFB is helping to knock down barriers
> > to make your life better!
> > All this and more at the 2002 NFB National Convention
> > July 3 - 9 -- for details go to: http://www.nfbk.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> Visit me at http://www.valstar.net/~hallenbeck
> The Moon is Waning Crescent (6% of Full)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: free programming language

[Angelo Sonnesso]

Where can I get a copy of K & R on floppy.
I think I would like to load it in to my Braille lite to read on my long
commute (typically 2 hours each way).
That's what I get for living at the beach.>

> I've had K&R on my bookshelf on a 3.5 floppy for years! Even used it in
> class once.

Re: free programming language

[Pete]

  I read some about it a while ago and it used a modular approach or you
were able to create modules?
  Pete

----- Original Message -----
From: <jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 11:38 AM
Subject: Re: free programming language


Hi Pete,
I don't know Ada myself, but I've seen Ada listings and articles in
programming magazines like Dr. Dobb's Journal.  It seems syntactically
complex, much more so than say C++.

     Jim
On Mon, 11 Mar 2002, Pete wrote:

>
>   What about ADA as a starting point for learning programming?
>   Pete
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
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Re: free programming language

[Pete]

  I  don't know, what is missles?  
  Pete  

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina@afb.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 11:53 AM
Subject: Re: free programming language


Isn't ADA for guiding missles and that kind of application?

On Mon, 11 Mar 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:

> Hi Pete,
> I don't know Ada myself, but I've seen Ada listings and articles in 
> programming magazines like Dr. Dobb's Journal.  It seems syntactically 
> complex, much more so than say C++.
> 
>      Jim
> On Mon, 11 Mar 2002, Pete wrote:
> 
> >   
> >   What about ADA as a starting point for learning programming?  
> >   Pete  
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 

Janina Sajka, Director
Technology Research and Development
Governmental Relations Group
American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org


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Re: free programming language

[Charles Hallenbeck]

Hi Randy,
I do not know of a basic for linux. This discussion got started
with a question about a beginner's programming language in a
windows environment, as I recall, so I did not give the question
of Linux programming much thought when I supported the use of
basic. It is true that basic is not a structured language, which
is not to say that one cannot write structured programs in basic.
But for sure I would not recommend dropping back to windows just
to begin programming in basic!!! I would rather begin studying
sanskrit before recommending that.

Chuck


On Mon, 11 Mar 2002, randy turner wrote:

>
>
> hi chuck,
> is there a basic for linux?
> thanks in advance
> randy


Visit me at http://www.valstar.net/~hallenbeck
The Moon is Waning Crescent (2% of Full)

Re: free programming language

[Charles Hallenbeck]

Hi Pete,

On Tue, 12 Mar 2002, Pete wrote:

>   I  don't know, what is missles?

Janina meant 'missiles'  as in big rockets that carry warheads or
astronauts. ADA was developed by the Department Of Defense and
was made famous in a presidential address to the ACM (Association
of Computing Machinery) as being so complicated and unreliable as
to pose a significant threat to the continuation of life on
earth. I doubt if that impressed the military folks, but it sure
impressed me.

Chuck


Visit me at http://www.valstar.net/~hallenbeck
The Moon is Waning Crescent (2% of Full)

Re: free programming language

[Pete]

  Is there a basic for linux?  It seems there are a lot of new things to
learn whith using the command shell and scripts let alone learning to patch
and compile source.
  Pete

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 4:19 PM
Subject: Re: free programming language


An ide or integrated development enviornment is a visual interface that
automatically calls the editor, compiler, debugger ETC. without the
programmer needing to learn commands to do theese things. In my experience,
they usually don't prove to be very accessible, and it takes more time to
use them then it does to just edit and compile the code from the command
line. Ron is right about not getting tangled up in ides until you know the
programming language well enough. I myself had the fortune of starting out
with basic on the braille 'n speak, and then adding to that by using basica
under DOS.
Greg


On Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 04:09:52AM -0500, Pete wrote:
>
>   What are ides?
>   Pete
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ron Marriage" <marriage@seidata.com>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 8:34 PM
> Subject: Re: free programming language
>
>
> Having taught programming languages for over 30 years, I
> figure to weigh in with my own 2 cents.
>
> First off, if you don't know a programming language now,
> forget about the compilers, IDEs, etc.
> You don't want to learn an IDE you want to know how to
> program.  The skills that you learn will transfer to most
> other languages.
>
> Basic is available in many flavors, pick one, so it's
> interpreted, why should you care.  Believe it or not you
> won't develope the newest MS office suite with it or with
> any language you start out with.
>
> What you can learn though even with an interpreted language
> is logic, methodology, and a background that will carry over
> to more advanced languages, where you will have the chance
> of doing something worthwhile.
>
> Tie yourself to an IDE now and you won't learn programming
> ever.  You also won't develope anything more than what you
> can do by pushing buttons.  An IDE is good only after you
> learn how to program.
>
> Get basic, play with it a while, then try C or some other
> higher language.
>
> Lots of languages out there and most work great for specific
> things. Not eveything is done in C.
>
> After you have some basic skills, decide what it is that you
> want to do.  You might realize then that the language you
> want is much easier to decide upon.
>
> Ron
>
>
>
> Alex Snow wrote:
> >
> > I would use, and want to learn, basic, if there was a free Compiler
and/or
> > IDE for basic under winblows.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 2:56 PM
> > Subject: Re: free programming language
> >
> > > How about BASIC?
> > > Greg
>
> --
> ===
> Ron Marriage
> Home Page http://www.seidata.com/~marriage/
> Blind Links http://www.seidata.com/~marriage/rblind.html
> Linux  http://www.seidata.com/~seilug/
> Email  mailto:marriage@seidata.com
>
> Win door prizes!  Meet old and new friends!
> See the latest technology and gadgets for your everyday
> living!
> Learn how the NFB is helping to knock down barriers
> to make your life better!
> All this and more at the 2002 NFB National Convention
> July 3 - 9 -- for details go to: http://www.nfbk.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

_______________________________________________
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Re: free programming language

[Brian Borowski]

I agree with Jim.  Many of the basic programmers I know, have never been
able to move on comfortably even to C, and have often therefore, remained
with basic, and all the bad ideas that it brings along, besides, most
implementations of that language aren't free, anyway, so why bother if
there are so many other good free implementations of better languages out
there.

You really need good documentation like a book, or some of the excellent
documentation that accompanies some of the free distributions of
programming languages.

You could start with java, if your into object oriented languages, and want
to structure your life that way, and get the book Exploring Java, from
O'rielly; java is available for Windows as well as all the better Os's.

You could just learn C, Cygnus for Win or the wonderful gnu stuff for
linux, and get a good book; check out empowermentzone.

You could get perl, there is ActiveState's perl for Win, and of course the
default stuff that comes with linux; and the book Learning Perl from
O'reilly, or again, empowermentzone has a few.

There's so much choice, but the real thing is, you've got to have some
commitment and initiative to see the thing through; this is really the
important part of the whole thing.

In my opinion, C is the ultimate, I like perl and java, (java when I need
to), but as someone else has said, the technique, not the language is
important.  The skills like algorithm design and its implementation are
what you really have to learn, then you use the language to express your
ideas in something the machine can understand and work with.

Brian Borowski


On Mon, 11 Mar 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:

> Hi Greg,
> I definitely disagree.  BASIC teaches bad programming habits like
> FORTRAN i.e. non-structured programming.  The problem with C is not the
> language, but that most people learning C start by reading Kernighan and
> Richie.  I have been programming in C since 1986 but it took me almost
> half of that time to unlearn bad habits I picked up from BASIC and
> FORTRAN.  Now, one could make a case for Pascal as your first language
> but I really think BASIC is a bad idea.  Sure, you might be able to
> accomplish certain tasks easier in BASIC than in C, but the time you
> spend in learning C will make you a much better programmer in the long
> run.
>      Jim Wantz
> On Sun, 10 Mar 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
>
> > Since we're on opinions, in my opinion c or c++ are not good languages to begin with. I believe from personal experience that it is best to start with something like basic, and then move on to languages like c or c++ where the concepts you learned from BASIC will help you advance in higher languages faster.
> > Greg
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 06:48:35PM -0500, jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
> > > Hi Alex,
> > > While BASIC sounds like a good starting language in my opinion it is
> > > not.  First, it is very non-standard (no two BASIC interpreters or
> > > compilers are alike).  Second, file i/o in most BASICs is really rather
> > > painful.  As far as I know, the only BASIC widely used in WINDOWS is
> > > Visual BASIC which is hardly free!
> > >
> > >      Jim Wantz
> > > n Sun, 10 Mar 2002, Alex Snow wrote:
> > >
> > > > I would use, and want to learn, basic, if there was a free Compiler and/or
> > > > IDE for basic under winblows.
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu>
> > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 2:56 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: free programming language
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > How about BASIC?
> > > > > Greg
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 01:25:38PM -0500, Alex Snow wrote:
> > > > > > Hi.
> > > > > > I am looking for a programming language for windows that is both free
> > > > and easy to learn for a beginning programmer.  Does such a language exist?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ---
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>

Re: viruses

[Pete]

  I got one almost got past outlook but was killed.  Don't remember who sent
it but stil have the message some whear.
  Pete

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Snow" <alex_snow@gmx.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 5:42 PM
Subject: viruses


Hi, Listers!
I was wondering if anyone else was getting virus infected emails from this
list.  I would just like to tell who ever is sending them, that They
shouldn't waist there time unless they want the mails sent back to them in
large quantities.


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Re: free programming language

[Charles Hallenbeck]

Hi Brian,

On Tue, 12 Mar 2002, Brian Borowski wrote:

<snip>

> There's so much choice, but the real thing is, you've got to have some
> commitment and initiative to see the thing through; this is really the
> important part of the whole thing.
>
> In my opinion, C is the ultimate, I like perl and java, (java when I need
> to), but as someone else has said, the technique, not the language is
> important.  The skills like algorithm design and its implementation are
> what you really have to learn, then you use the language to express your
> ideas in something the machine can understand and work with.
>
> Brian Borowski
I agree with these ideas completely. I guess the resources
available to a student today are quite different and more
powerful, allowing more choice, than they once were. Maybe I
better reconsider my plug for Basic in the light of that.

Chuck



Visit me at http://www.valstar.net/~hallenbeck
The Moon is Waning Crescent (2% of Full)

Re: free programming language

[Steve Holmes]

Geee, I have too bad ones hear:) My first programming language in college
was Fortran in 1975 and I later taught myself C by guess who! Kernighan
and Richie.  I didn't know any better, really!:).  Along the way I learned
and worked professionally for many years with Cobol, another yucky
language:).  I generally like C but a beginner can sure get hurt by miss
managed pointers.  I took a Visual Basic course a couple years ago and it
was my introduction to object oriented programming and I can't say it was
a bad one either.  VB was fun and I would have thought, not so bad a way
to get the feet wet but should really move on quickly to true programming.
That might seem backwards but the person won't get bogged down immediately
with costly syntax but then again, one should learn to do arrithmitic in
his head before picking up a calculator.

Now that I've done a pretty good job of contradicting myself:).

On Mon, 11 Mar 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:

> Hi Greg,
> I definitely disagree.  BASIC teaches bad programming habits like
> FORTRAN i.e. non-structured programming.  The problem with C is not the
> language, but that most people learning C start by reading Kernighan and
> Richie.  I have been programming in C since 1986 but it took me almost
> half of that time to unlearn bad habits I picked up from BASIC and
> FORTRAN.  Now, one could make a case for Pascal as your first language
> but I really think BASIC is a bad idea.  Sure, you might be able to
> accomplish certain tasks easier in BASIC than in C, but the time you
> spend in learning C will make you a much better programmer in the long
> run.
>      Jim Wantz
> On Sun, 10 Mar 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
>
> > Since we're on opinions, in my opinion c or c++ are not good languages to begin with. I believe from personal experience that it is best to start with something like basic, and then move on to languages like c or c++ where the concepts you learned from BASIC will help you advance in higher languages faster.
> > Greg
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 06:48:35PM -0500, jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
> > > Hi Alex,
> > > While BASIC sounds like a good starting language in my opinion it is
> > > not.  First, it is very non-standard (no two BASIC interpreters or
> > > compilers are alike).  Second, file i/o in most BASICs is really rather
> > > painful.  As far as I know, the only BASIC widely used in WINDOWS is
> > > Visual BASIC which is hardly free!
> > >
> > >      Jim Wantz
> > > n Sun, 10 Mar 2002, Alex Snow wrote:
> > >
> > > > I would use, and want to learn, basic, if there was a free Compiler and/or
> > > > IDE for basic under winblows.
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu>
> > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 2:56 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: free programming language
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > How about BASIC?
> > > > > Greg
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 01:25:38PM -0500, Alex Snow wrote:
> > > > > > Hi.
> > > > > > I am looking for a programming language for windows that is both free
> > > > and easy to learn for a beginning programmer.  Does such a language exist?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ---
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: free programming language

[Pete]

  Yes, it's not a good idea to have missiles flying around whith win-like
OSes.
  Pete

----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Hallenbeck" <hallenbeck@valstar.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 6:39 AM
Subject: Re: free programming language


Hi Pete,

On Tue, 12 Mar 2002, Pete wrote:

>   I  don't know, what is missles?

Janina meant 'missiles'  as in big rockets that carry warheads or
astronauts. ADA was developed by the Department Of Defense and
was made famous in a presidential address to the ACM (Association
of Computing Machinery) as being so complicated and unreliable as
to pose a significant threat to the continuation of life on
earth. I doubt if that impressed the military folks, but it sure
impressed me.

Chuck


Visit me at http://www.valstar.net/~hallenbeck
The Moon is Waning Crescent (2% of Full)


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Re: free programming language

[Thomas D. Ward]

Hi, I certainly agree here. Basic is not a good choice. Perl might be a 
better language to try. At least it offers some good programming habbits, 
and is a modern language to boot.
I started out by learning C, and it really gave me a real pointer on how 
to program. There are vary books out there that teach c and make it as 
easy as possible to learn.
 

 On Mon, 11 Mar 2002 
jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:

> Hi Greg,
> I definitely disagree.  BASIC teaches bad programming habits like 
> FORTRAN i.e. non-structured programming.  The problem with C is not the 
> language, but that most people learning C start by reading Kernighan and 
> Richie.  I have been programming in C since 1986 but it took me almost 
> half of that time to unlearn bad habits I picked up from BASIC and 
> FORTRAN.  Now, one could make a case for Pascal as your first language 
> but I really think BASIC is a bad idea.  Sure, you might be able to 
> accomplish certain tasks easier in BASIC than in C, but the time you 
> spend in learning C will make you a much better programmer in the long 
> run.
>      Jim Wantz
> On Sun, 10 Mar 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> 
> > Since we're on opinions, in my opinion c or c++ are not good languages to begin with. I believe from personal experience that it is best to start with something like basic, and then move on to languages like c or c++ where the concepts you learned from BASIC will help you advance in higher languages faster.
> > Greg
> > 
> > 
> > On Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 06:48:35PM -0500, jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
> > > Hi Alex,
> > > While BASIC sounds like a good starting language in my opinion it is 
> > > not.  First, it is very non-standard (no two BASIC interpreters or 
> > > compilers are alike).  Second, file i/o in most BASICs is really rather 
> > > painful.  As far as I know, the only BASIC widely used in WINDOWS is 
> > > Visual BASIC which is hardly free!
> > > 
> > >      Jim Wantz
> > > n Sun, 10 Mar 2002, Alex Snow wrote:
> > > 
> > > > I would use, and want to learn, basic, if there was a free Compiler and/or
> > > > IDE for basic under winblows.
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu>
> > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 2:56 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: free programming language
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > How about BASIC?
> > > > > Greg
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 01:25:38PM -0500, Alex Snow wrote:
> > > > > > Hi.
> > > > > > I am looking for a programming language for windows that is both free
> > > > and easy to learn for a beginning programmer.  Does such a language exist?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ---
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: free programming language

[Thomas D. Ward]

Actually, I found teach yourself C in 24 hours and teach yourself C++ in 
21 days to be great beginner books. I used them myself, and liked them.

On Mon, 11 Mar 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:

> Hi Janina,
> K&R is an excellent book--just not a beginner's book.  Something like C 
> Primer Plus is much easier for a beginner.     Jim
> On Mon, 11 Mar 2002, 
> Janina Sajka wrote:
> 
> > Hey, Jim:
> > 
> > If K&R is a bad way to learn C, what's a better way?
> > 
> > I've had K&R on my bookshelf on a 3.5 floppy for years! Even used it in 
> > class once.
> > 
> > On Mon, 11 Mar 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
> > 
> > > Hi Greg,
> > > I definitely disagree.  BASIC teaches bad programming habits like 
> > > FORTRAN i.e. non-structured programming.  The problem with C is not the 
> > > language, but that most people learning C start by reading Kernighan and 
> > > Richie.  I have been programming in C since 1986 but it took me almost 
> > > half of that time to unlearn bad habits I picked up from BASIC and 
> > > FORTRAN.  Now, one could make a case for Pascal as your first language 
> > > but I really think BASIC is a bad idea.  Sure, you might be able to 
> > > accomplish certain tasks easier in BASIC than in C, but the time you 
> > > spend in learning C will make you a much better programmer in the long 
> > > run.
> > >      Jim Wantz
> > > On Sun, 10 Mar 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Since we're on opinions, in my opinion c or c++ are not good languages to begin with. I believe from personal experience that it is best to start with something like basic, and then move on to languages like c or c++ where the concepts you learned from BASIC will help you advance in higher languages faster.
> > > > Greg
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > On Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 06:48:35PM -0500, jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
> > > > > Hi Alex,
> > > > > While BASIC sounds like a good starting language in my opinion it is 
> > > > > not.  First, it is very non-standard (no two BASIC interpreters or 
> > > > > compilers are alike).  Second, file i/o in most BASICs is really rather 
> > > > > painful.  As far as I know, the only BASIC widely used in WINDOWS is 
> > > > > Visual BASIC which is hardly free!
> > > > > 
> > > > >      Jim Wantz
> > > > > n Sun, 10 Mar 2002, Alex Snow wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > I would use, and want to learn, basic, if there was a free Compiler and/or
> > > > > > IDE for basic under winblows.
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu>
> > > > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > > > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 2:56 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: free programming language
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > > How about BASIC?
> > > > > > > Greg
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 01:25:38PM -0500, Alex Snow wrote:
> > > > > > > > Hi.
> > > > > > > > I am looking for a programming language for windows that is both free
> > > > > > and easy to learn for a beginning programmer.  Does such a language exist?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ---
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: free programming language

[Janina Sajka]

Pete:

I address this to you, because you've been posting a lot of "is ther a" 
kinds of questions here lately, but it really goes to all of us.

Can't we be a little smarter? There are fabulous search engines on the 
net, and they work very well in linux with assistive technologies. My 
favorite is:

	http://www.google.com

Wonderful things come on screen if you go to the text entry box and type 
in:

	basic programming linux"


Am I the only one here who knows how to use Google?

 On Tue, 12 Mar 2002, Pete wrote:

> 
>   Is there a basic for linux?  It seems there are a lot of new things to
> learn whith using the command shell and scripts let alone learning to patch
> and compile source.
>   Pete
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 4:19 PM
> Subject: Re: free programming language
> 
> 
> An ide or integrated development enviornment is a visual interface that
> automatically calls the editor, compiler, debugger ETC. without the
> programmer needing to learn commands to do theese things. In my experience,
> they usually don't prove to be very accessible, and it takes more time to
> use them then it does to just edit and compile the code from the command
> line. Ron is right about not getting tangled up in ides until you know the
> programming language well enough. I myself had the fortune of starting out
> with basic on the braille 'n speak, and then adding to that by using basica
> under DOS.
> Greg
> 
> 
> On Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 04:09:52AM -0500, Pete wrote:
> >
> >   What are ides?
> >   Pete
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ron Marriage" <marriage@seidata.com>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 8:34 PM
> > Subject: Re: free programming language
> >
> >
> > Having taught programming languages for over 30 years, I
> > figure to weigh in with my own 2 cents.
> >
> > First off, if you don't know a programming language now,
> > forget about the compilers, IDEs, etc.
> > You don't want to learn an IDE you want to know how to
> > program.  The skills that you learn will transfer to most
> > other languages.
> >
> > Basic is available in many flavors, pick one, so it's
> > interpreted, why should you care.  Believe it or not you
> > won't develope the newest MS office suite with it or with
> > any language you start out with.
> >
> > What you can learn though even with an interpreted language
> > is logic, methodology, and a background that will carry over
> > to more advanced languages, where you will have the chance
> > of doing something worthwhile.
> >
> > Tie yourself to an IDE now and you won't learn programming
> > ever.  You also won't develope anything more than what you
> > can do by pushing buttons.  An IDE is good only after you
> > learn how to program.
> >
> > Get basic, play with it a while, then try C or some other
> > higher language.
> >
> > Lots of languages out there and most work great for specific
> > things. Not eveything is done in C.
> >
> > After you have some basic skills, decide what it is that you
> > want to do.  You might realize then that the language you
> > want is much easier to decide upon.
> >
> > Ron
> >
> >
> >
> > Alex Snow wrote:
> > >
> > > I would use, and want to learn, basic, if there was a free Compiler
> and/or
> > > IDE for basic under winblows.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 2:56 PM
> > > Subject: Re: free programming language
> > >
> > > > How about BASIC?
> > > > Greg
> >
> > --
> > ===
> > Ron Marriage
> > Home Page http://www.seidata.com/~marriage/
> > Blind Links http://www.seidata.com/~marriage/rblind.html
> > Linux  http://www.seidata.com/~seilug/
> > Email  mailto:marriage@seidata.com
> >
> > Win door prizes!  Meet old and new friends!
> > See the latest technology and gadgets for your everyday
> > living!
> > Learn how the NFB is helping to knock down barriers
> > to make your life better!
> > All this and more at the 2002 NFB National Convention
> > July 3 - 9 -- for details go to: http://www.nfbk.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: free programming language

[Gregory Nowak]

I have had no problem moving from basic to c++. As a matter of fact, I feel that my knowledge of basic before c++ hellped me ultimately rather then hindering me.
Greg


On Tue, Mar 12, 2002 at 06:57:37AM -0500, Brian Borowski wrote:
> I agree with Jim.  Many of the basic programmers I know, have never been
> able to move on comfortably even to C, and have often therefore, remained
> with basic, and all the bad ideas that it brings along, besides, most
> implementations of that language aren't free, anyway, so why bother if
> there are so many other good free implementations of better languages out
> there.
> 
> You really need good documentation like a book, or some of the excellent
> documentation that accompanies some of the free distributions of
> programming languages.
> 
> You could start with java, if your into object oriented languages, and want
> to structure your life that way, and get the book Exploring Java, from
> O'rielly; java is available for Windows as well as all the better Os's.
> 
> You could just learn C, Cygnus for Win or the wonderful gnu stuff for
> linux, and get a good book; check out empowermentzone.
> 
> You could get perl, there is ActiveState's perl for Win, and of course the
> default stuff that comes with linux; and the book Learning Perl from
> O'reilly, or again, empowermentzone has a few.
> 
> There's so much choice, but the real thing is, you've got to have some
> commitment and initiative to see the thing through; this is really the
> important part of the whole thing.
> 
> In my opinion, C is the ultimate, I like perl and java, (java when I need
> to), but as someone else has said, the technique, not the language is
> important.  The skills like algorithm design and its implementation are
> what you really have to learn, then you use the language to express your
> ideas in something the machine can understand and work with.
> 
> Brian Borowski
> 
> 
> On Mon, 11 Mar 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
> 
> > Hi Greg,
> > I definitely disagree.  BASIC teaches bad programming habits like
> > FORTRAN i.e. non-structured programming.  The problem with C is not the
> > language, but that most people learning C start by reading Kernighan and
> > Richie.  I have been programming in C since 1986 but it took me almost
> > half of that time to unlearn bad habits I picked up from BASIC and
> > FORTRAN.  Now, one could make a case for Pascal as your first language
> > but I really think BASIC is a bad idea.  Sure, you might be able to
> > accomplish certain tasks easier in BASIC than in C, but the time you
> > spend in learning C will make you a much better programmer in the long
> > run.
> >      Jim Wantz
> > On Sun, 10 Mar 2002, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> >
> > > Since we're on opinions, in my opinion c or c++ are not good languages to begin with. I believe from personal experience that it is best to start with something like basic, and then move on to languages like c or c++ where the concepts you learned from BASIC will help you advance in higher languages faster.
> > > Greg
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 06:48:35PM -0500, jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
> > > > Hi Alex,
> > > > While BASIC sounds like a good starting language in my opinion it is
> > > > not.  First, it is very non-standard (no two BASIC interpreters or
> > > > compilers are alike).  Second, file i/o in most BASICs is really rather
> > > > painful.  As far as I know, the only BASIC widely used in WINDOWS is
> > > > Visual BASIC which is hardly free!
> > > >
> > > >      Jim Wantz
> > > > n Sun, 10 Mar 2002, Alex Snow wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I would use, and want to learn, basic, if there was a free Compiler and/or
> > > > > IDE for basic under winblows.
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu>
> > > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 2:56 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: free programming language
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > How about BASIC?
> > > > > > Greg
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 01:25:38PM -0500, Alex Snow wrote:
> > > > > > > Hi.
> > > > > > > I am looking for a programming language for windows that is both free
> > > > > and easy to learn for a beginning programmer.  Does such a language exist?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ---
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: free programming language

[jwantz]

Hi Greg,
I haven't really tried any IDE's in Linux--but I never had any problems 
with Borland in either WINDOWS or DOS or Symantec in DOS.  The WINDOWS 
Symantec compiler though was completely inaccessible.  Both the Borland 
IDE debugger and the standalone debbuger are very accessible.  Never 
played with any Microshaft IDE just the command line.

      Jim Wantz
On Mon, 11 Mar 2002, 
Gregory Nowak wrote:

> An ide or integrated development enviornment is a visual interface that automatically calls the editor, compiler, debugger ETC. without the programmer needing to learn commands to do theese things. In my experience, they usually don't prove to be very accessible, and it takes more time to use them then it does to just edit and compile the code from the command line. Ron is right about not getting tangled up in ides until you know the programming language well enough. I myself had the fortune of starting out with basic on the braille 'n speak, and then adding to that by using basica under DOS.
> Greg
> 
> 
> On Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 04:09:52AM -0500, Pete wrote:
> > 
> >   What are ides?
> >   Pete
> > 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ron Marriage" <marriage@seidata.com>
> > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 8:34 PM
> > Subject: Re: free programming language
> > 
> > 
> > Having taught programming languages for over 30 years, I
> > figure to weigh in with my own 2 cents.
> > 
> > First off, if you don't know a programming language now,
> > forget about the compilers, IDEs, etc.
> > You don't want to learn an IDE you want to know how to
> > program.  The skills that you learn will transfer to most
> > other languages.
> > 
> > Basic is available in many flavors, pick one, so it's
> > interpreted, why should you care.  Believe it or not you
> > won't develope the newest MS office suite with it or with
> > any language you start out with.
> > 
> > What you can learn though even with an interpreted language
> > is logic, methodology, and a background that will carry over
> > to more advanced languages, where you will have the chance
> > of doing something worthwhile.
> > 
> > Tie yourself to an IDE now and you won't learn programming
> > ever.  You also won't develope anything more than what you
> > can do by pushing buttons.  An IDE is good only after you
> > learn how to program.
> > 
> > Get basic, play with it a while, then try C or some other
> > higher language.
> > 
> > Lots of languages out there and most work great for specific
> > things. Not eveything is done in C.
> > 
> > After you have some basic skills, decide what it is that you
> > want to do.  You might realize then that the language you
> > want is much easier to decide upon.
> > 
> > Ron
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Alex Snow wrote:
> > >
> > > I would use, and want to learn, basic, if there was a free Compiler and/or
> > > IDE for basic under winblows.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 2:56 PM
> > > Subject: Re: free programming language
> > >
> > > > How about BASIC?
> > > > Greg
> > 
> > --
> > ===
> > Ron Marriage
> > Home Page http://www.seidata.com/~marriage/
> > Blind Links http://www.seidata.com/~marriage/rblind.html
> > Linux  http://www.seidata.com/~seilug/
> > Email  mailto:marriage@seidata.com
> > 
> > Win door prizes!  Meet old and new friends!
> > See the latest technology and gadgets for your everyday
> > living!
> > Learn how the NFB is helping to knock down barriers
> > to make your life better!
> > All this and more at the 2002 NFB National Convention
> > July 3 - 9 -- for details go to: http://www.nfbk.org
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: free programming language

[jwantz]

Hi Greg,
Maybe it couldn't then, but in its later versions it can.  I also 
understand that there is a version that runs under Linux--but since it 
sells for around $400.00 I've given it a pass.

     Jim
On Mon, 11 Mar 2002, Gregory 
Nowak wrote:

> I didn't know that code warrior could compile code for gnu/linux. I worked with it in high school, and saw all the other target options except for that one.
> Greg
> 
> 
> On Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 10:07:46AM -0500, jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
> > Hi,
> > An IDE means an integrated development environment--you basically have 
> > an editor, error checker and compiler rolled into one package.  The 
> > first really good IDE was probably TURBO C under MSDOS.  The most 
> > sophisticated IDE of which I am aware is code warrior that has the 
> > capability of compiling C, C++ and Java for WINDOWS, MACOS and linux.
> > 
> >     Jim Wantz
> > On 
> > Mon, 11 Mar 2002, Pete wrote:
> > 
> > > 
> > >   What are ides?
> > >   Pete
> > > 
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Ron Marriage" <marriage@seidata.com>
> > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 8:34 PM
> > > Subject: Re: free programming language
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Having taught programming languages for over 30 years, I
> > > figure to weigh in with my own 2 cents.
> > > 
> > > First off, if you don't know a programming language now,
> > > forget about the compilers, IDEs, etc.
> > > You don't want to learn an IDE you want to know how to
> > > program.  The skills that you learn will transfer to most
> > > other languages.
> > > 
> > > Basic is available in many flavors, pick one, so it's
> > > interpreted, why should you care.  Believe it or not you
> > > won't develope the newest MS office suite with it or with
> > > any language you start out with.
> > > 
> > > What you can learn though even with an interpreted language
> > > is logic, methodology, and a background that will carry over
> > > to more advanced languages, where you will have the chance
> > > of doing something worthwhile.
> > > 
> > > Tie yourself to an IDE now and you won't learn programming
> > > ever.  You also won't develope anything more than what you
> > > can do by pushing buttons.  An IDE is good only after you
> > > learn how to program.
> > > 
> > > Get basic, play with it a while, then try C or some other
> > > higher language.
> > > 
> > > Lots of languages out there and most work great for specific
> > > things. Not eveything is done in C.
> > > 
> > > After you have some basic skills, decide what it is that you
> > > want to do.  You might realize then that the language you
> > > want is much easier to decide upon.
> > > 
> > > Ron
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Alex Snow wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I would use, and want to learn, basic, if there was a free Compiler and/or
> > > > IDE for basic under winblows.
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Gregory Nowak" <gnowak1@uic.edu>
> > > > To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 2:56 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: free programming language
> > > >
> > > > > How about BASIC?
> > > > > Greg
> > > 
> > > --
> > > ===
> > > Ron Marriage
> > > Home Page http://www.seidata.com/~marriage/
> > > Blind Links http://www.seidata.com/~marriage/rblind.html
> > > Linux  http://www.seidata.com/~seilug/
> > > Email  mailto:marriage@seidata.com
> > > 
> > > Win door prizes!  Meet old and new friends!
> > > See the latest technology and gadgets for your everyday
> > > living!
> > > Learn how the NFB is helping to knock down barriers
> > > to make your life better!
> > > All this and more at the 2002 NFB National Convention
> > > July 3 - 9 -- for details go to: http://www.nfbk.org
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: free programming language

[jwantz]

Hi Pete,
My impression of Ada is that is very verbose, not as much so as Cobol 
but more than a beginner would want to tackle.

     Jim
On Tue, 12 Mar 2002, Pete 
wrote:

> 
>   I read some about it a while ago and it used a modular approach or you
> were able to create modules?
>   Pete
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 11:38 AM
> Subject: Re: free programming language
> 
> 
> Hi Pete,
> I don't know Ada myself, but I've seen Ada listings and articles in
> programming magazines like Dr. Dobb's Journal.  It seems syntactically
> complex, much more so than say C++.
> 
>      Jim
> On Mon, 11 Mar 2002, Pete wrote:
> 
> >
> >   What about ADA as a starting point for learning programming?
> >   Pete
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: free programming language

[Janina Sajka]

On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:

> understand that there is a version that runs under Linux--but since it 
> sells for around $400.00 I've given it a pass.

Hmmm. Sounds like Code Warrier came to Linux with its Windows mindset 
intact. Rather reminds me of Corel releasing WordPerfect on Linux--which 
they also later withdrew. It sure did look strange to have all those .EXE 
files in a Linux directory--;ano source.

Some people just don't understand yet.

Re: free programming language

[jwantz]

Hey Janina,
Yep your right of course.  Have you looked at the price of Oracle on 
Linux or Informix?  Gulp!

     Jim
On Wed, 13 Mar 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:

> On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 jwantz@hpcc2.hpcc.noaa.gov wrote:
> 
> > understand that there is a version that runs under Linux--but since it 
> > sells for around $400.00 I've given it a pass.
> 
> Hmmm. Sounds like Code Warrier came to Linux with its Windows mindset 
> intact. Rather reminds me of Corel releasing WordPerfect on Linux--which 
> they also later withdrew. It sure did look strange to have all those .EXE 
> files in a Linux directory--;ano source.
> 
> Some people just don't understand yet.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

google

[randy turner]

hey i just tried that search engine, it is cool! i like it!
thanks
randy

Re: google

[Igor Gueths]

Hi randy. While you're there, be sure to check out the usenet archive if you haven't already.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: randy turner <rturner2@texasisp.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 8:28 PM
Subject: google


> 
> 
> hey i just tried that search engine, it is cool! i like it!
> thanks
> randy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

google

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

No problem.  I love google, and it works very will in Lynx with
speakup.

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: google

[Janina Sajka]

And, check out the Penguin friendly pages.

On Wed, 13 Mar 2002, Igor Gueths wrote:

> Hi randy. While you're there, be sure to check out the usenet archive if you haven't already.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: randy turner <rturner2@texasisp.com>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 8:28 PM
> Subject: google
> 
> 
> > 
> > 
> > hey i just tried that search engine, it is cool! i like it!
> > thanks
> > randy
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: google

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

<smiling>  Of course you like it.  It is running on a series of linked
Linux computers.  That's huccum it's so fast and so reliable and why
it will not crash!

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT