java/java script/ya ain't missing much

java/java script/ya ain't missing much

[cwhitley]

Hi,
lynx not having java script doesn't make ya'll missing much.  Script really
isn't all that accessable.  Pure java, with the swing libraries, now that's
a different story.  Most of the client side java script is graphical in
nature and thus not spoken.  Even the "text" is drawn on the screen in such
a way that jaws at least doesn't neccessarily speak it or even recognize
links imbedded within it.

Cecil

Re: java/java script/ya ain't missing much

[Toby Fisher]

On Fri, 17 May 2002, cwhitley wrote:

> Hi,
> lynx not having java script doesn't make ya'll missing much.  Script really
> isn't all that accessable.  Pure java, with the swing libraries, now that's
> a different story.  Most of the client side java script is graphical in
> nature and thus not spoken.  Even the "text" is drawn on the screen in such
> a way that jaws at least doesn't neccessarily speak it or even recognize
> links imbedded within it.

The biggest problem, however, is that more and more web forms are using
javascript submit buttons which Lynx is unable to find, meaming that you
fill out a nice long form, yes, it's accessible, than you can't submit it
because it's a javascript submit button.

Cheers.

-- 
Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808
   Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
   See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Re: java/java script/ya ain't missing much

[Gregory Nowak]

Yeah, I've run into that more then once. Having that button at the end of one of the nice long forms can really be frustrating after you've spent time filling it out.
Greg


On Fri, May 17, 2002 at 09:35:55PM +0100, Toby Fisher wrote:
> On Fri, 17 May 2002, cwhitley wrote:
> 
> > Hi,
> > lynx not having java script doesn't make ya'll missing much.  Script really
> > isn't all that accessable.  Pure java, with the swing libraries, now that's
> > a different story.  Most of the client side java script is graphical in
> > nature and thus not spoken.  Even the "text" is drawn on the screen in such
> > a way that jaws at least doesn't neccessarily speak it or even recognize
> > links imbedded within it.
> 
> The biggest problem, however, is that more and more web forms are using
> javascript submit buttons which Lynx is unable to find, meaming that you
> fill out a nice long form, yes, it's accessible, than you can't submit it
> because it's a javascript submit button.
> 
> Cheers.
> 
> -- 
> Toby Fisher	Email: toby@g0ucu.freeserve.co.uk
> Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
> ICQ: #61744808
>    Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
>    See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: java/java script/ya ain't missing much

[Janina Sajka]

As far as I can tell there's no excuse for a javascript submit
button, or a javascript url either.

On Fri, 17 May 2002, Toby Fisher wrote:

> On Fri, 17 May 2002, cwhitley wrote:
> 
> > Hi,
> > lynx not having java script doesn't make ya'll missing much.  Script really
> > isn't all that accessable.  Pure java, with the swing libraries, now that's
> > a different story.  Most of the client side java script is graphical in
> > nature and thus not spoken.  Even the "text" is drawn on the screen in such
> > a way that jaws at least doesn't neccessarily speak it or even recognize
> > links imbedded within it.
> 
> The biggest problem, however, is that more and more web forms are using
> javascript submit buttons which Lynx is unable to find, meaming that you
> fill out a nice long form, yes, it's accessible, than you can't submit it
> because it's a javascript submit button.
> 
> Cheers.
> 
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: java/java script/ya ain't missing much

[Adam Myrow]

The theory of the Javascript submit button (at least as I understand it,)
is that it makes the client do  data verification rather than the server.
For example, if you are making an online purchase, and you enter 1 too
many digits in your credit card number, the client would catch this before
the data got uploaded to the server and sent to a bank and then returned
as invalid.  I still think that it's just laziness.  I remember in college
that I had a professor who used Java script on his web page that was
needed for class.  This was back in the days of IE3 and Netscape 3.01.  As
you can imagine, it was real hard to use.  Almost impossible, in fact.
Even when I explained it to him, he flat refused to replace the
Javascript.

Now, as for those Javascript links, I think the only thing they do is
serve you those annoying popup adds.  I can't stand how so many sites with
Real Audio content happily use those things.  Oh, speaking of Real media,
did anybody notice how they switched to that "Real One" player, abandoned
Linux and Windows 95, and from what I hear, the new player is
inaccessible.  Shows how much they care about their users!  I think
somebody needs to come up with a GPL streaming format.  Every audio/video
streaming format I know of is proprietary.

Re: java/java script/ya ain't missing much

[Buddy Brannan]

Actually, as odious as Java/HJavascript are, one fairly useful thing
that one can do is have a form that won't submit unless it's filled
out properly. Course, IMO that may as well be done on the server end,
but I guess having the form checking in the actual form might save
some time (especially on slower connections....maybe?)
-- 
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV/3  | I choose you to take up all of my time.
Email: davros@ycardz.com | I choose you because you're funny and kind
                         | I want easy people from now on.
                         | --the Nields

Re: java/java script/ya ain't missing much

[Janina Sajka]

Oh, those poor eCommerce sites with their precious cpu cycles. My
heart bleeds for their lost mips.

On Fri, 17 May 2002, Adam Myrow wrote:

> The theory of the Javascript submit button (at least as I understand it,)
> is that it makes the client do  data verification rather than the server.
> For example, if you are making an online purchase, and you enter 1 too
> many digits in your credit card number, the client would catch this before
> the data got uploaded to the server and sent to a bank and then returned
> as invalid.  I still think that it's just laziness.  I remember in college
> that I had a professor who used Java script on his web page that was
> needed for class.  This was back in the days of IE3 and Netscape 3.01.  As
> you can imagine, it was real hard to use.  Almost impossible, in fact.
> Even when I explained it to him, he flat refused to replace the
> Javascript.
> 
> Now, as for those Javascript links, I think the only thing they do is
> serve you those annoying popup adds.  I can't stand how so many sites with
> Real Audio content happily use those things.  Oh, speaking of Real media,
> did anybody notice how they switched to that "Real One" player, abandoned
> Linux and Windows 95, and from what I hear, the new player is
> inaccessible.  Shows how much they care about their users!  I think
> somebody needs to come up with a GPL streaming format.  Every audio/video
> streaming format I know of is proprietary.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: java/java script/ya ain't missing much

[Cecil H. Whitley]

Hi,
Keep in mind the only enemy isn't java script.  There's activex out there as
well.  At least it's not real common, otherwise my customers would be
screaming worse than they already do.  Our firewalls filter out activex,
guess they knew nancy reagan, "just say no!".  at least php and python on
the server side are text mode!
Regards,
Cecil

JavaScript UrlsRe: java/java script/ya ain't missing much

[Dave Hunt <]

Some of these cause the referenced page to open in its own IE window.

-Dave

Re: JavaScript UrlsRe: java/java script/ya ain't missing much

[David Poehlman]

and some count the clicks.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dave Hunt <" <dave.hunt2@verizon.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 8:48 PM
Subject: JavaScript UrlsRe: java/java script/ya ain't missing much


Some of these cause the referenced page to open in its own IE window.

-Dave

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Re: java/java script/ya ain't missing much

[Octavian Rasnita]

Hi all,

I am subscribed to some mailing lists for web server programming, and each
time they ask for some automation with Javascript, I remember them promptly
that their form will be innaccessible for the blind or for the people using
browsers like Linx.

However, I definitely need to use Javascript in some forms because:
1. I can put a link that takes the visitor to the previous visited page with
Javascript, but I can't put that with HTML only.
Do you know how can I use HTML only to link the visitor to the previous
page?
Or I should not put such a link because a very small percent of users use
Linx.
2. I need to validate some forms before sending them to the server.
This job is easier to do on the server, but I don't want to let the user
submit a form, then let them see that something is wrong. The trip to the
server will take a lot of time and some people (including me) have slow
connections.
3. There are some task that need to run only on the client machine without a
trip to the server.
For example, I've made a sheet for calculating the cheapest price among all
mobile  phone companies operators in my country.
The visitors should type  how much they speak, where, on which networks, how
much off peak, etc, and after that, they see a graphic and text values of
the costs for all tarrif plans of all operators.
On the server, this is easier to do, but after each "OK" button, the visitor
need to wait and I don't want this.

Linux is a great OS, and I like that it can be set as I want (not just like
Windows) but all the settings are made in a text file.
This is OK, but what I don't understand is why there isn't any good text
editor, like in Windows. Like TextPad, for example.

It is the same thing with Lynx.
All the people tell that in Lynx you can do anything you want, but even the
most known browser under Linux, doesn't support javascript.
Unbelievable!

If a browser like Internet Explorer under Windows supports Javascript, this
is not a problem if you don't like it. You can simply disable javascript or
VB script or other things you may not want.
But most people want Javascript because it is very helpful.

Only bad designed web sites are inaccessible for us, because of javascript
only links that pop up menus, from where you can choose the next link, but
well designed ones also have normal links that can be used but with more
clicks.

So my opinion is yes, Lynx is a poor designed web browser, and unfortunately
I don't know a better one under Linux.


Teddy,
orasnita@home.ro

----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Myrow" <myrow@eskimo.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 1:34 AM
Subject: Re: java/java script/ya ain't missing much


The theory of the Javascript submit button (at least as I understand it,)
is that it makes the client do  data verification rather than the server.
For example, if you are making an online purchase, and you enter 1 too
many digits in your credit card number, the client would catch this before
the data got uploaded to the server and sent to a bank and then returned
as invalid.  I still think that it's just laziness.  I remember in college
that I had a professor who used Java script on his web page that was
needed for class.  This was back in the days of IE3 and Netscape 3.01.  As
you can imagine, it was real hard to use.  Almost impossible, in fact.
Even when I explained it to him, he flat refused to replace the
Javascript.

Now, as for those Javascript links, I think the only thing they do is
serve you those annoying popup adds.  I can't stand how so many sites with
Real Audio content happily use those things.  Oh, speaking of Real media,
did anybody notice how they switched to that "Real One" player, abandoned
Linux and Windows 95, and from what I hear, the new player is
inaccessible.  Shows how much they care about their users!  I think
somebody needs to come up with a GPL streaming format.  Every audio/video
streaming format I know of is proprietary.



_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: java/java script/ya ain't missing much

[Cecil H. Whitley]

*snip*  See response below
> Hi all,
>
> I am subscribed to some mailing lists for web server programming, and each
> time they ask for some automation with Javascript, I remember them
promptly
*snip*
If you depend on client side data validation, you still need to do server
side in order to prevent buffer overflows, etc from people who want to use
your server to express themselves, and other uses.

Php or Python scripting on the server side can accomplish sending you back
to the refferer url.  Both are common unix/linux/windows tools as is apache.

I am not advocating banning java, but I must reiterate that java script is
not java.  Activex is also not java.  M.S. has an implementation of java
script which is only java script in name, but most M.S. platforms understand
it, whether or not they understand true java.
Java script can be functionally replaced, but it will require server side
processing or moving to other common methods that are implemented on the
client side.

It should be pointed out in Lynx's defense that java and java script are a
highly graphical language and to implement it "text only" would violate the
language itself.  Bottom line, text only java or text only java script would
be partially functional at best and quite possibly useless to boot.

Regards,

Cecil

Re: java/java script/ya ain't missing much

[Igor Gueths]

Hi Buddy and all. Can we say Ogg Vorbis for a streaming format? 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Buddy Brannan <davros@ycardz.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 7:26 PM
Subject: Re: java/java script/ya ain't missing much


> Actually, as odious as Java/HJavascript are, one fairly useful thing
> that one can do is have a form that won't submit unless it's filled
> out properly. Course, IMO that may as well be done on the server end,
> but I guess having the form checking in the actual form might save
> some time (especially on slower connections....maybe?)
> -- 
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV/3  | I choose you to take up all of my time.
> Email: davros@ycardz.com | I choose you because you're funny and kind
>                          | I want easy people from now on.
>                          | --the Nields
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Free, Open Streaming Media

[Rich Caloggero]

The OGG Vorbis format is not proprietary, and was explicitly created to stay
that way.
http://www.vorbis.com

                    Rich

----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Myrow" <myrow@eskimo.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: 17 May, 2002 6:34 PM
Subject: Re: java/java script/ya ain't missing much


The theory of the Javascript submit button (at least as I understand it,)
is that it makes the client do  data verification rather than the server.
For example, if you are making an online purchase, and you enter 1 too
many digits in your credit card number, the client would catch this before
the data got uploaded to the server and sent to a bank and then returned
as invalid.  I still think that it's just laziness.  I remember in college
that I had a professor who used Java script on his web page that was
needed for class.  This was back in the days of IE3 and Netscape 3.01.  As
you can imagine, it was real hard to use.  Almost impossible, in fact.
Even when I explained it to him, he flat refused to replace the
Javascript.

Now, as for those Javascript links, I think the only thing they do is
serve you those annoying popup adds.  I can't stand how so many sites with
Real Audio content happily use those things.  Oh, speaking of Real media,
did anybody notice how they switched to that "Real One" player, abandoned
Linux and Windows 95, and from what I hear, the new player is
inaccessible.  Shows how much they care about their users!  I think
somebody needs to come up with a GPL streaming format.  Every audio/video
streaming format I know of is proprietary.

Re: Free, Open Streaming Media

[Alex Snow]

Yeah, and doesn't it compress better than mp3?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Caloggero" <rjc@MIT.EDU>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 12:15 AM
Subject: Free, Open Streaming Media


> The OGG Vorbis format is not proprietary, and was explicitly created to
stay
> that way.
> http://www.vorbis.com
>
>                     Rich
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Adam Myrow" <myrow@eskimo.com>
> To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> Sent: 17 May, 2002 6:34 PM
> Subject: Re: java/java script/ya ain't missing much
>
>
> The theory of the Javascript submit button (at least as I understand it,)
> is that it makes the client do  data verification rather than the server.
> For example, if you are making an online purchase, and you enter 1 too
> many digits in your credit card number, the client would catch this before
> the data got uploaded to the server and sent to a bank and then returned
> as invalid.  I still think that it's just laziness.  I remember in college
> that I had a professor who used Java script on his web page that was
> needed for class.  This was back in the days of IE3 and Netscape 3.01.  As
> you can imagine, it was real hard to use.  Almost impossible, in fact.
> Even when I explained it to him, he flat refused to replace the
> Javascript.
>
> Now, as for those Javascript links, I think the only thing they do is
> serve you those annoying popup adds.  I can't stand how so many sites with
> Real Audio content happily use those things.  Oh, speaking of Real media,
> did anybody notice how they switched to that "Real One" player, abandoned
> Linux and Windows 95, and from what I hear, the new player is
> inaccessible.  Shows how much they care about their users!  I think
> somebody needs to come up with a GPL streaming format.  Every audio/video
> streaming format I know of is proprietary.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Free, Open Streaming Media

[Adam Myrow]

I've used OGG to play local files, and they sound fine.  However, I've yet
to see a site offereing streaming OGG.  Are there any that (for example)
broadcast radio stations in OGG format?  If so, then OGG may well be the
free streaming media format, but I've only seen it used for local files
like I said.

Re: Free, Open Streaming Media

[Alex Snow]

That site that read the source code for the linux kernel broadcasted in ogg.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Myrow" <myrow@eskimo.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 12:35 PM
Subject: Re: Free, Open Streaming Media


> I've used OGG to play local files, and they sound fine.  However, I've yet
> to see a site offereing streaming OGG.  Are there any that (for example)
> broadcast radio stations in OGG format?  If so, then OGG may well be the
> free streaming media format, but I've only seen it used for local files
> like I said.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Free, Open Streaming Media

[Kirk Reiser]

Lots of ogg/vorbis streaming around the world.  You can check out my
ogg stream at http://bumpy.braille.uwo.ca:9000/egoplay.ogg or
egoplay64.ogg.  BBC four is available in ogg all kinds of stuff.

-- 

Kirk Reiser				The Computer Braille Facility
e-mail: kirk@braille.uwo.ca		University of Western Ontario
phone: (519) 661-3061