Audio on CD RW

Audio on CD RW

[Victor Tsaran]

Hello, listers!
Sorry for the question which is off topic on this list. Is it possible to
play audio CD RW on a regular home CD player? Why I am asking is because I
would like to bring several samples of my music to a rehearsal and erase
those samples without having to sacrifice an blank CD.
Best regards and thanks for your help in advance.
Victor

Re: Audio on CD RW

[Gregory Nowak]

The older ones don't. However, I have been told by a friend that new stereos can play cdrws.
Greg


On Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 09:24:50PM +0100, Victor Tsaran wrote:
> Hello, listers!
> Sorry for the question which is off topic on this list. Is it possible to
> play audio CD RW on a regular home CD player? Why I am asking is because I
> would like to bring several samples of my music to a rehearsal and erase
> those samples without having to sacrifice an blank CD.
> Best regards and thanks for your help in advance.
> Victor
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Audio on CD RW

[Kerry Hoath]

Most audio cd players don't have the right gain
circuit to play cdrw disks. There is a different reflectivity index
to normal cdr and some brands will play in some players and some will not.
Best to try it and see if it works good, if not; you need another brand of cdrw
or use a cdr disk.

Regards, Kerry.
On Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 09:24:50PM +0100, Victor Tsaran wrote:
> Hello, listers!
> Sorry for the question which is off topic on this list. Is it possible to
> play audio CD RW on a regular home CD player? Why I am asking is because I
> would like to bring several samples of my music to a rehearsal and erase
> those samples without having to sacrifice an blank CD.
> Best regards and thanks for your help in advance.
> Victor
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
Kerry Hoath:  kerry@gotss.net kerry@gotss.eu.org or  kerry@gotss.spice.net.au

Re: Audio on CD RW

[Victor Tsaran]

Thanks a lot, guys, for your help. Anybody knows for certain about CD RW's
that will play in regular CD players?
Victor

Re: Audio on CD RW

[Kerry Hoath]

There is no certainty.
Different cd players will play different cdrw media and in fact
some cd players won't even play cdr media.
You can be far less sure that a cdrw will play in a cd player than a cdr
because there is an optical gain circuit used when reading cdrw media.
Trust me; the only way to know if it will work is to try it and since you can
erase a cdrw you don't loose a blank.

Regards, Kerry.
On Tue, Feb 05, 2002 at 02:15:39AM +0100, Victor Tsaran wrote:
> Thanks a lot, guys, for your help. Anybody knows for certain about CD RW's
> that will play in regular CD players?
> Victor
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
Kerry Hoath:  kerry@gotss.net kerry@gotss.eu.org or  kerry@gotss.spice.net.au

Re: Audio on CD RW

[Victor Tsaran]

Hi, Kerry!
Thanks a lot for your explanation. I tried already two CD RW's of different
brands, but no luck. This is quite unfortunate because I was hoping that I
could record, use the CD for my rehearsals  and rewrite multiple times.
Best,
Victor

Re: Audio on CD RW

[Kerry Hoath]

The newer the cd player the more likely it will read cdrw.
Many new diskmans will do cdrw so you could patch in the diskman into the mixer;
or similar. Some of those cheap mp3cd diskmans also do cdrw and also do audio cd on cdrw.

Regards, Kerry.
On Tue, Feb 05, 2002 at 11:02:43PM +0100, Victor Tsaran wrote:
> Hi, Kerry!
> Thanks a lot for your explanation. I tried already two CD RW's of different
> brands, but no luck. This is quite unfortunate because I was hoping that I
> could record, use the CD for my rehearsals  and rewrite multiple times.
> Best,
> Victor
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
Kerry Hoath:  kerry@gotss.net kerry@gotss.eu.org or  kerry@gotss.spice.net.au

Re: Audio on CD RW

[Ron Marriage]

If someone has already said this, please forgive me.
Recording audio
CD-RW will play on only multiple use CDROMs such as a DVD or
CD-RW drive.
CD-R will play in an audio player or multiple use CD drive.

If you want to record music on a CD-R you can do that, if
you don't close or finish the CD-R then you can go back in
and add more to it later.  Once you close or finish the CD-R
you cannot write anymore to it again.

If you want to rewrite to a CD-RW then you must play it in
the CD-RW drive or DVD drive to hear it.  This would allow
you to record, erase, re-record, etc.  Still won't play on
the stereo or any mini-player, but will work.

Ron



Kerry Hoath wrote:
> 
> The newer the cd player the more likely it will read cdrw.
> Many new diskmans will do cdrw so you could patch in the diskman into the mixer;
> or similar. Some of those cheap mp3cd diskmans also do cdrw and also do audio cd on cdrw.
> 
> Regards, Kerry.
> On Tue, Feb 05, 2002 at 11:02:43PM +0100, Victor Tsaran wrote:
> > Hi, Kerry!
> > Thanks a lot for your explanation. I tried already two CD RW's of different
> > brands, but no luck. This is quite unfortunate because I was hoping that I
> > could record, use the CD for my rehearsals  and rewrite multiple times.
> > Best,
> > Victor
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> 
> --
> Kerry Hoath:  kerry@gotss.net kerry@gotss.eu.org or  kerry@gotss.spice.net.au
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
Ron Marriage
Homepage http://www.seidata.com/~marriage/
Email  mailto:marriage@seidata.com
Linux User Group http://www.seidata.com/~seilug/
Blind Links  http://www.seidata.com/~marriage/rblind.html

Win door prizes!  Meet old and new friends!  See the latest
technology and gadgets for your everyday living!  Learn how 
the NFB is helping to knock down barriers to make your life 
better! All this and more at the 2002 NFB National
Convention 
July 3 - 9 -- for details go to: http://www.nfbk.org

Re: Audio on CD RW

[Kirk Wood]

On Tue, 5 Feb 2002, Ron Marriage wrote:
> If you want to rewrite to a CD-RW then you must play it in
> the CD-RW drive or DVD drive to hear it.  This would allow
> you to record, erase, re-record, etc.  Still won't play on
> the stereo or any mini-player, but will work.

Actually, this is outdated information. Many stereos and diskman type CD
players now read CDRW disks. While I don't know any percentages, I will
say that it is very easy to find them advertising this ability.

Actually there is a simple reason. It is cheaper to produce a higher
number of the same laser needed to read the CDRW disks then it would be to
produce smaller numbers of two different laser diodes. 

As another note, to erase anything on a CDRW you must "reformat" the
disk. You can not simply erase a single track and rewrite it. You must
erase all or nothing. This being said, when using either CDR or CDRW for
data you can "overwrite" the file. What really happens is another copy of
the file is written while leaving the first in place. The pointers are
then updated to show the new location. This is part of the multiwrite
specification.

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.

Re: Audio on CD RW

[Victor Tsaran]

Yes, but I also know that only the first session from the multisession CD
will play on home stereo.
Victor

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Marriage" <marriage@seidata.com>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 3:40 AM
Subject: Re: Audio on CD RW


If someone has already said this, please forgive me.
Recording audio
CD-RW will play on only multiple use CDROMs such as a DVD or
CD-RW drive.
CD-R will play in an audio player or multiple use CD drive.

If you want to record music on a CD-R you can do that, if
you don't close or finish the CD-R then you can go back in
and add more to it later.  Once you close or finish the CD-R
you cannot write anymore to it again.

If you want to rewrite to a CD-RW then you must play it in
the CD-RW drive or DVD drive to hear it.  This would allow
you to record, erase, re-record, etc.  Still won't play on
the stereo or any mini-player, but will work.

Ron



Kerry Hoath wrote:
>
> The newer the cd player the more likely it will read cdrw.
> Many new diskmans will do cdrw so you could patch in the diskman into the
mixer;
> or similar. Some of those cheap mp3cd diskmans also do cdrw and also do
audio cd on cdrw.
>
> Regards, Kerry.
> On Tue, Feb 05, 2002 at 11:02:43PM +0100, Victor Tsaran wrote:
> > Hi, Kerry!
> > Thanks a lot for your explanation. I tried already two CD RW's of
different
> > brands, but no luck. This is quite unfortunate because I was hoping that
I
> > could record, use the CD for my rehearsals  and rewrite multiple times.
> > Best,
> > Victor
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> --
> Kerry Hoath:  kerry@gotss.net kerry@gotss.eu.org or
kerry@gotss.spice.net.au
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

--
Ron Marriage
Homepage http://www.seidata.com/~marriage/
Email  mailto:marriage@seidata.com
Linux User Group http://www.seidata.com/~seilug/
Blind Links  http://www.seidata.com/~marriage/rblind.html

Win door prizes!  Meet old and new friends!  See the latest
technology and gadgets for your everyday living!  Learn how
the NFB is helping to knock down barriers to make your life
better! All this and more at the 2002 NFB National
Convention
July 3 - 9 -- for details go to: http://www.nfbk.org

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Audio on CD RW

[Steve Holmes]

I don't find the following message to be true.  I have a couple CD players
that will play audio CD's recorded on a CDRW media - I've done it!.  Like
what was said in a previous message, it really depends on the player
itself as well as the media.  I've played them on a couple players but
I've also seen it fail on many others.  I think the newer the player, the
better your chances.  Also stick to better quality media.  The cheapest CD
and CDRW blanks will give you the worst time.

On Tue, 5 Feb 2002, Ron Marriage wrote:

> If someone has already said this, please forgive me.
> Recording audio
> CD-RW will play on only multiple use CDROMs such as a DVD or
> CD-RW drive.
> CD-R will play in an audio player or multiple use CD drive.
>
> If you want to record music on a CD-R you can do that, if
> you don't close or finish the CD-R then you can go back in
> and add more to it later.  Once you close or finish the CD-R
> you cannot write anymore to it again.
>
> If you want to rewrite to a CD-RW then you must play it in
> the CD-RW drive or DVD drive to hear it.  This would allow
> you to record, erase, re-record, etc.  Still won't play on
> the stereo or any mini-player, but will work.
>
> Ron
>
>
>
> Kerry Hoath wrote:
> >
> > The newer the cd player the more likely it will read cdrw.
> > Many new diskmans will do cdrw so you could patch in the diskman into the mixer;
> > or similar. Some of those cheap mp3cd diskmans also do cdrw and also do audio cd on cdrw.
> >
> > Regards, Kerry.
> > On Tue, Feb 05, 2002 at 11:02:43PM +0100, Victor Tsaran wrote:
> > > Hi, Kerry!
> > > Thanks a lot for your explanation. I tried already two CD RW's of different
> > > brands, but no luck. This is quite unfortunate because I was hoping that I
> > > could record, use the CD for my rehearsals  and rewrite multiple times.
> > > Best,
> > > Victor
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Kerry Hoath:  kerry@gotss.net kerry@gotss.eu.org or  kerry@gotss.spice.net.au
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> --
> Ron Marriage
> Homepage http://www.seidata.com/~marriage/
> Email  mailto:marriage@seidata.com
> Linux User Group http://www.seidata.com/~seilug/
> Blind Links  http://www.seidata.com/~marriage/rblind.html
>
> Win door prizes!  Meet old and new friends!  See the latest
> technology and gadgets for your everyday living!  Learn how
> the NFB is helping to knock down barriers to make your life
> better! All this and more at the 2002 NFB National
> Convention
> July 3 - 9 -- for details go to: http://www.nfbk.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Audio on CD RW

[Victor Tsaran]

Hi, Kirk!
Will try to search on the Internet for brands of CD RW's that will play in
my diskman, at least.
thanks,
Vic

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kirk Wood" <cpt.kirk@1tree.net>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 4:20 AM
Subject: Re: Audio on CD RW


On Tue, 5 Feb 2002, Ron Marriage wrote:
> If you want to rewrite to a CD-RW then you must play it in
> the CD-RW drive or DVD drive to hear it.  This would allow
> you to record, erase, re-record, etc.  Still won't play on
> the stereo or any mini-player, but will work.

Actually, this is outdated information. Many stereos and diskman type CD
players now read CDRW disks. While I don't know any percentages, I will
say that it is very easy to find them advertising this ability.

Actually there is a simple reason. It is cheaper to produce a higher
number of the same laser needed to read the CDRW disks then it would be to
produce smaller numbers of two different laser diodes.

As another note, to erase anything on a CDRW you must "reformat" the
disk. You can not simply erase a single track and rewrite it. You must
erase all or nothing. This being said, when using either CDR or CDRW for
data you can "overwrite" the file. What really happens is another copy of
the file is written while leaving the first in place. The pointers are
then updated to show the new location. This is part of the multiwrite
specification.

=======
Kirk Wood
Cpt.Kirk@1tree.net

Nowlan's Theory:
        He who hesitates is not only lost, but several miles from
        the next freeway exit.



_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Who wants to compile the talking checkbook code for Linux?

[Charles Crawford]

Hi All,

	Took me a few months to get to collecting all the code, but I remember 
some folks were interested in getting the original prg files from the 
Talking Checkbook tht was compile with Clipper for Dos.  Now anyone want 
it?  I can send a zip file of the programs.

-- charlie.

Re: Who wants to compile the talking checkbook code for Linux?

[Thomas Ward]

Hi, I'd like to take a peek at it. Would you mind sending it to me at 
tward@bright.net
Thanks.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Charles Crawford <ccrawford@acb.org>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 11:30 AM
Subject: Who wants to compile the talking checkbook code for Linux?


> Hi All,
> 
> Took me a few months to get to collecting all the code, but I remember 
> some folks were interested in getting the original prg files from the 
> Talking Checkbook tht was compile with Clipper for Dos.  Now anyone want 
> it?  I can send a zip file of the programs.
> 
> -- charlie.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: Who wants to compile the talking checkbook code for Linux?

[Steve Holmes]

I think you sent me some of those in the past; I don't remember if I kept
them or not.  I am interested still in a checkbook project but am
considering looking into gnu checks when I get rolling on it.  I'm really
curious about putting a text based front end on an X application.

On Wed, 6 Feb 2002, Charles Crawford wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> 	Took me a few months to get to collecting all the code, but I remember
> some folks were interested in getting the original prg files from the
> Talking Checkbook tht was compile with Clipper for Dos.  Now anyone want
> it?  I can send a zip file of the programs.
>
> -- charlie.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: Who wants to compile the talking checkbook code for Linux?

[charles crawford]

	I found it interesting to hear about putting a text based front
end to an X application.  Sounds alot like Windows.  It would be a real
problem if we are to be forced into having to re-write programs to make
them text based.

-- Charlie.

Re: Who wants to compile the talking checkbook code for Linux?

[David Poehlman]

but it is much easier to do this for linux than for windows from what
I've heard.

----- Original Message -----
From: "charles crawford" <ccrawford@acb.org>
To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 6:07 AM
Subject: Re: Who wants to compile the talking checkbook code for Linux?


I found it interesting to hear about putting a text based front
end to an X application.  Sounds alot like Windows.  It would be a real
problem if we are to be forced into having to re-write programs to make
them text based.

-- Charlie.


_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Who wants to compile the talking checkbook code for Linux?

[Charles Crawford]

Dave and all,

         I suspect that it would be easier to recompile the talking 
cvheckbook as long as there is a compiler in Linux that reads the dos text 
programs associated with Clipper and can import the terminal emulation that 
sends text to the screen in a way a screen reader can capture it on it's 
way.  I am not sure that the terminal piece to the code is all that 
important in this case because we only added it to del with the direct 
screen writes that Clipper wanted to do.  The other problem would be the 
dbf database file.  It is standard, bjt not sure if it can be read in 
Linux?  Probably can, but let's see how the compile works.  Who knows, 
maybe all the old talking checkbook user will go to Linux to use it.

         Not to be fat headed, but I still have not found anything in 
Windows tht can compete witht he speed and ease of use of the talking 
checkbook.

-- charlie.
At 07:06 AM 2/7/02 -0500, you wrote:
>but it is much easier to do this for linux than for windows from what
>I've heard.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "charles crawford" <ccrawford@acb.org>
>To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
>Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 6:07 AM
>Subject: Re: Who wants to compile the talking checkbook code for Linux?
>
>
>I found it interesting to hear about putting a text based front
>end to an X application.  Sounds alot like Windows.  It would be a real
>problem if we are to be forced into having to re-write programs to make
>them text based.
>
>-- Charlie.
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Who wants to compile the talking checkbook code for Linux?

[Janina Sajka]

Charley:

It's not the same at all. Unlike Windows, X, and unix apps in general, are 
socketed and therefore rather modular. A useful way to think of this might 
be to remember the bad old days of nonsocketed telephones, when you needed 
a guy with pliers and a drill to install an extension telephone upstairs. 
Of course, there's still a need for that guy at some point today. The 
difference is that today that guy installs an RJ11 jack, and your phone, 
therefore, is not hard-wired, but scketed. Big difference.
 On Thu, 7 Feb 
2002, charles crawford wrote:

> 	I found it interesting to hear about putting a text based front
> end to an X application.  Sounds alot like Windows.  It would be a real
> problem if we are to be forced into having to re-write programs to make
> them text based.
> 
> -- Charlie.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: Who wants to compile the talking checkbook code for Linux?

[Janina Sajka]

I took a quick look on Fresh Meat and found several tools that might 
expedite porting Charley's checkbook to linux. Thing is, if the tools 
work, they'd also port to Windows. So, how's about that?


-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Chair, Accessibility SIG
Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
http://www.openebook.org

Re: Who wants to compile the talking checkbook code for Linux?

[Charles Crawford]

Hey now, that is interesting.  What tools?

-- Charlie.
At 10:14 AM 2/7/02 -0500, you wrote:
>I took a quick look on Fresh Meat and found several tools that might
>expedite porting Charley's checkbook to linux. Thing is, if the tools
>work, they'd also port to Windows. So, how's about that?
>
>
>--
>
>                                 Janina Sajka, Director
>                                 Technology Research and Development
>                                 Governmental Relations Group
>                                 American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
>Email: janina@afb.net           Phone: (202) 408-8175
>
>Chair, Accessibility SIG
>Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF)
>http://www.openebook.org
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: Who wants to compile the talking checkbook code for Linux?

[Amanda Lee]

It probably would not be difficult to translate the data files from a
delimited dbf type of file to whatever is compatible to how it is
eventually compiled in LInux.  I seem to recall that .dbf files just have
a semicolon to delimit each field.  Not an expert but it can happen!

I'm behind in the mail so perhaps the checkbook is now already
circumnavigating the globe hahah!

Amanda Lee


On Thu, 7 Feb 2002, Charles Crawford wrote:

> Dave and all,
>
>          I suspect that it would be easier to recompile the talking
> cvheckbook as long as there is a compiler in Linux that reads the dos text
> programs associated with Clipper and can import the terminal emulation that
> sends text to the screen in a way a screen reader can capture it on it's
> way.  I am not sure that the terminal piece to the code is all that
> important in this case because we only added it to del with the direct
> screen writes that Clipper wanted to do.  The other problem would be the
> dbf database file.  It is standard, bjt not sure if it can be read in
> Linux?  Probably can, but let's see how the compile works.  Who knows,
> maybe all the old talking checkbook user will go to Linux to use it.
>
>          Not to be fat headed, but I still have not found anything in
> Windows tht can compete witht he speed and ease of use of the talking
> checkbook.
>
> -- charlie.
> At 07:06 AM 2/7/02 -0500, you wrote:
> >but it is much easier to do this for linux than for windows from what
> >I've heard.
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "charles crawford" <ccrawford@acb.org>
> >To: <speakup@braille.uwo.ca>
> >Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 6:07 AM
> >Subject: Re: Who wants to compile the talking checkbook code for Linux?
> >
> >
> >I found it interesting to hear about putting a text based front
> >end to an X application.  Sounds alot like Windows.  It would be a real
> >problem if we are to be forced into having to re-write programs to make
> >them text based.
> >
> >-- Charlie.
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
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