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* up-to-date text-based browser?
@  Cheryl Homiak
   ` Kirk Reiser
                   ` (3 more replies)
  0 siblings, 4 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: Cheryl Homiak @  UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: blinux-list

I just had another couple of experiences where I could look but not load
my cart and buy with either lynx (as in the cat) or links (as in the
chain). Frankly, I'm now trying  to scrape together the money and add
Microsoft windows to my repertoire.
Here is my question, straight and plain. Is anybody actually working on
developing an up-to-date text-based browser that will meet the real needs
of the internet today? Or is development in present browsers going to
include modern accessibility anytime soon? Or is our only hope in linux
for us to eventually be able to use a more up-to-date browser under gnome?
And no flames please!!! Anybody who tries to do shopping and accessing
sites day after day can't deny there's a problem here. One day you can
manage a site; the next time you go back, you can't load your cart or you
can't check out.
Don't misunderstand; I love linux; I don't want to have to add
Microsoft Windows; I
certainly don't want to have to spend all that money!!!
But the truth is:  linux as we are now able to use it is not meeting the
requirements for much of present-day Internet transaction, and I don't see
indications that it's going to do so in the near future.
This is the main reason why i don't recommend linux to a lot of my friends
who want to do shopping and lots of audio. Yeah, I say, linux is great;
 but ..... and I give them a long list of
sites they won't be able to shop or access which I happen to know my
blind friends in Microsoft Windows are able to use.If you never need to
shop, or if you
just have a few tried-and-true stores that never ever will change, i guess
it's not an issue, but for those of us who really depend on being able to
shop online it is an issue. I'm not even sure I consider this to be mostly
an accessibility issue any more. If website operations are changing that
much, and text-based linux browsers are doing nothing to keep pace, at
what point does it quit being an accessibility issue and start being a
"get with the rest of the world" mandate. It's not even exactly a 'linux"
issue per se, as it's my understanding that sighted people using the gui
in linux aren't nearly so limited. I know most of you won't like
hearing this, but I'm not overreacting. I have watched site after site I
used become inaccessible to me, and have searched google and found all
sorts of sites I want to use, only to be disappointed when i tried to fill
up my cart or maybe worse, when the cart was all full and i tried to pay
or do that final check-out.
Unless development in browsers like lynx and links broadens soon, or
unless
the browsers using the gui become highly accessible soon, it is my belief
that anybody wanting to make full use of Internet capabilities will have
no choice but to have dual systems. and for those who simply absolutely
can't afford all that a Microsoft windows system entails for a blind
person, it will mean a lot of limitation.
And I probably should have my head examined for even posting this; I know
some of you get upset if anybody even suggests that there is a problem.
but hey, I'm not the enemy!!! If I could do all or even most of what I
need to do in text-based linux browsers, I wouldn't say a thing
onlist about a
few inaccessible sites. But I'm totally frustrated with the constant
search for sites that I can actually fully use and having to choose where
I shop by what's useable rather than what I really want!!!


-- 
Cheryl



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* up-to-date text-based browser?
@  Karl Dahlke
   ` Cheryl Homiak
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread
From: Karl Dahlke @  UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: blinux-list

Sadly, you're right.

I am the author of edbrowse, another text based browser.
http://www.eklhad.net/linux/app/
I use this to shop online, and sometimes it works.
But sometimes it doesn't.
Sometimes I pull back and read the html source,
read the javascript,
figure out what it is trying to do,
adjust the html accordingly,
rebrowse the page,
and run it,
and then it works.
But come on; only a professional programmer could jump through
those hoops!

I probably have the necessary skills to make
edbrowse a fully functional browser.
I'd have to port it to C first, then call upon the native Java interpreter,
with all sorts of patches for the "usual" document classes etc.
Ok, but we're talking a couple years of fulltime work,
and I don't see anybody ready to pay me six figures to do that.
So - it ain't gonna happen.

I hear lynx is making a real effort at supporting javascript, but I don't know
much about that, as I dislike lynx simply for its user interface.

My approach for now, and for the foreseeable future, is, unfortunately,
to use edbrowse for most of what I do,
and ask my wife, on her Windows box,
to manage the sites that just won't behave for me.

Karl

P.S. One last thought.  The other day I got one of those stupid
spam messages, about refinancing or growing my organ or whatever,
and it had an opt-out button, which I happily pushed,
but it led me to a web based unsubscribe form with so much javascript
that even I couldn't figure it out.
Some kind of runtime decryption program.
So I can't even unsubscribe from this crap,
nor can I complain to anybody, because, after all,
the email does have an opt-out button.

P.P.S. Perhaps the best approach is to get a grant from HHS or Labor,
to make one or all of these browsers more universal.
I happen to have, bookmarked, for other reasons,
the HHS grant site;
maybe I'll whip up a business plan and submit it.
I mean, it couldn't hurt, eh??
If I had grant money coming in, and could drop my 9 to 5 job,
I could do it.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* up-to-date text-based browser?
@  Gary Wynn
   ` Cheryl Homiak
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread
From: Gary Wynn @  UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Blinux

Thank you Cheryl, for having the courage to state your experiences
clearly and in sufficient detail to help many persons who are blind,
and hoping to use linux for access.  Too often, the kind of information
you gave is not available, or suppressed.

It is vital for the health of linux development that frustrations and
shortcomings be equally well expressed.  A problem not acknowledged is
not likely to be addressed.  In terms of "marketing" linux or
recruiting persons who are blind into using linux, a forthright
admission of the problems as well as the advantages is critical.  If
persons are drawn to linux, and find they invested valuable time and
effort with a diminished return, they are often lost to linux for a
long time after the experience.

The Blinux FAQ does well at spelling out the advantages and
opportunities of linux to a person who is blind, but it cannot be
everything in one document.  Additional individual experiences with
linux are so valuable at a people-to-people level for making a good
decision.  

Because so many on this list work with linux exclusively, they may not
have access to alternative information that could assist development of
better tools.  One fact is that websites are often hostile and
difficult to use, even for non disabled persons using M$ products.  My
wife is a computer user of 20 years experience, and a GUI user for more
than 15 years.  She finds many websites extremely difficult to use with
M$ "Exploiter", simply because they are apparently not designed well
for human use.  It is doubtful that any development of a linux tool, no
matter with what genius, can correct the deficiencies of poor design on
the part of the website creators.

The final point is, that linux is a tool, and it should certainly make
sense to anyone who cooks, that not every tool can solve every problem. 
It may just be, that for many people linux is excellent for email, as
it protects well against viruses and spam, but is less adequate for web
browsing, accessing music on the net, or for handling personal
information.  One should *always* be open to using the tools that
individually, work best for oneself.  

A word to the developers of linux tools--the elk are only as healthy as
the wolves in the area.   Every linux developer *NEEDS* some very
predatory consumers who will rip apart any creation with ferocity and
persistence.  There is simply no way for linux to improve without open
expression of consumer experiences--including frustrations with its
performance.  That function *should* be regarded as a valuable service.
 M$ pays people to get far less useful information.   As a human
factors designer myself, I know that I can never make an improvement in
any human interface without an articulate human being who will take the
time to work with an interface as thoroughly as Cheryl shows she does,
and express those experiences as well as Cheryl can.   With that kind
of data, one can understand the best direction and priority for further
effort.

It is completely natural for the elk to drive away the wolves, as being
torn apart is no fun, but if the elk are too successful, they sicken
and die, and ultimately destroy themselves.  Too many fine people have
expressed views on this list like those of Cheryl, and have been
flamed--and never returned.  Linux is only as healthy an operating
system as the creators ability to accept criticism and absorb user
experiences into the design of future contributions.

We all want linux to succeed, or we would not be on this list.  The
health of this list requires we maintain as balanced a perspective as
we can--we welcome the wolves to the list as thoroughly as we do to
Yellowstone, and hope for a similar result.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: up-to-date text-based browser?
@  Chris Anderson
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: Chris Anderson @  UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: blinux-list

At 14:32 2003-11-04 -0600,  Cheryl Homiak <chomiak@chartermi.net> wrote:

<sundry stuff and replies snipped>

Dear Cheryl, before you rush out and buy Chairman Bill's latest horrors, just
a few points. My daily business is supporting blind users in their battle to
cope with the joys of computing.  They mainly use Windows 98, XP, 2000 etc etc
with Jaws, WinEyes etc etc. They all have the same problems with Web
Shopping sites.
You, personally,  are actually a very sophisticated user, you are already
doing things that
many cannot do at all.

My Boss, who is a guru, cannot use our local Internet Banking as it is all
Java driven and very graphic.

Notice the difference between Javascript, which has been under discussion,
and Full Java with encrypted threads.
We have not mentioned the COM and Xactive stuff, which are the real culprits
in non-accessability.
No text based browsers handle this at all, and in fact graphics browsers are
not all that great either after
all the pop-ups and scripting have been removed (to counter the nasty little
hackers and intruders).

The current 1b service pack removes the MS java machine from XP (yes you can
download the Sun version
but it has many bugs when used in an MS environment). So M$ are now
undertaking a rewrite of "The Web"
as they see it. To hell with standards and existing users. My prediction is
that in four years very
few non-MS browsers will be able to see MS-driven sites. I may be wrong. But
I am often right.
Usually for the wrong reasons B>)

Before we all rush out and throw the baby out with the bathwater, or our
computer toys out
of the cot, do a little "try before buy". If you find any blind or partially
sighted people
uing M$ products who tell you they  can browse any site on the web, and are
totally happy with their
systems, then you know that they will lie about other things as well B>).

If you find an MS based product set that does all the things you want to do
seamlessly and well, then please let us all
know about it at once.

IBM and many of the mainline web solution vendors are still plugging away on
the Java train.

The accessability problem is not going to go away, there are no quick fixes.
Yes it is frustrating, but cast your mind
back five years and see  how far we have come.

You have vocally expressed a real need in our community. And I see the signs
that the penny has
dropped in the right quarters. The ripples are spreading. The only benefit
of lists such as this is
in being able to air such opinions. You will receive both  negative and
positive feedback. But this is how
progress is made. 

Cheers. Keep up the good work all. B>)


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Anderson                       email:  chris@magnacarta.co.za 
Cinderella Speech Project	
http://www.magnacarta.co.za   Vision is merely a state of mind
------------------------------------------------------------------------




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~ UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 28+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
 up-to-date text-based browser? Cheryl Homiak
 ` Kirk Reiser
   ` Cheryl Homiak
     ` Jude DaShiell
     ` Luke Davis
   ` Luke Davis
     ` Cheryl Homiak
     ` Kirk Reiser
     ` Kenny Hitt
       ` Cheryl Homiak
         ` Jude DaShiell
 ` Nicolas Pitre
   ` Cheryl Homiak
     ` Nicolas Pitre
       ` Shaun Oliver
         ` Nicolas Pitre
 ` Gilles Casse
   ` Cheryl Homiak
 ` Mario Lang
   ` Cheryl Homiak
     ` Mario Lang
       ` abbandon text-based browsers was " cstrobel
         ` Travis Roth
 Karl Dahlke
 ` Cheryl Homiak
 Gary Wynn
 ` Cheryl Homiak
 Chris Anderson

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