What does it take to fork the kernel?

What does it take to fork the kernel?

[Bill Cox]

Hi.  I'm trying to improve integration of speakup for an upcoming
Vinux release.  Currently, I install it with module-assistant, which
has two problems.  First, speakup is loaded as a module, rather than
compiled into the kernel.  Second, every time Ubuntu ships a new
kernel, speakup breaks, until the user issues the magic command 'sudo
m-a a-i -f speakup-source' and reboots.

I'm considering having a custom kernel, compiled with speakup for
Vinux.  I have two questions, as a speakup novice.  In particular,
I've never used speakup when compiled in the kernel, so I'm only
guessing how it works.  First, is there some way to disable speaking
by default during boot, and only enable it if the user asks for it?
The first sound Vinux normally makes is the login window chime.  I
think it will confuse some users and possibly annoy others if they
wind up listening to the boot messages, but I want the option to
listen.  Second, do you know what it takes to maintain the kernel
packages?  I'm also a novice debian packager.

Alternatively, I can make it so the user does not have to type the
command to recompile speakup by detecting that it is not loading and
then recompiling on boot.

Finally, I've been asked to make some changes in default speakup
settings (turn cursor tracking off, and set punctuation to some).  Is
the recommended way with speakupconf?

Thanks,
Bill

Re: What does it take to fork the kernel?

[Willem van der Walt]

Hi Bill,
I think it would be far easier to just build the .deb package for speakup 
for each specific kernel and, by settings in the /etc/apt/sources.list, 
make sure that the correct speakup is installed when the kernel is 
upgraded.
If you use software speech, there is IMHO no advantage in building speakup 
into the kernel.
As for the talking at boot, you can controll it by deciding when speech is 
started, and the user can hit the numpad-enter once to shut it up.

Finally, I've been asked to make some changes in default speakup
settings (turn cursor tracking off.
I cannot see why anyone could want that as a default setting in console 
mode.

For startup, on all my machines, I disable the gdm graphical login and 
just sign on using speakup.  I then run startx to start gnome/orca when 
needed.
I am not saying that this approach would work for your Vinux users, but it 
works well for me.
HTH, Willem



On Thu, 18 Feb 2010, Bill Cox wrote:

> Hi.  I'm trying to improve integration of speakup for an upcoming
> Vinux release.  Currently, I install it with module-assistant, which
> has two problems.  First, speakup is loaded as a module, rather than
> compiled into the kernel.  Second, every time Ubuntu ships a new
> kernel, speakup breaks, until the user issues the magic command 'sudo
> m-a a-i -f speakup-source' and reboots.
> 
> I'm considering having a custom kernel, compiled with speakup for
> Vinux.  I have two questions, as a speakup novice.  In particular,
> I've never used speakup when compiled in the kernel, so I'm only
> guessing how it works.  First, is there some way to disable speaking
> by default during boot, and only enable it if the user asks for it?
> The first sound Vinux normally makes is the login window chime.  I
> think it will confuse some users and possibly annoy others if they
> wind up listening to the boot messages, but I want the option to
> listen.  Second, do you know what it takes to maintain the kernel
> packages?  I'm also a novice debian packager.
> 
> Alternatively, I can make it so the user does not have to type the
> command to recompile speakup by detecting that it is not loading and
> then recompiling on boot.
> 
> Finally, I've been asked to make some changes in default speakup
> settings (turn cursor tracking off, and set punctuation to some).  Is
> the recommended way with speakupconf?
> 
> Thanks,
> Bill
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

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Re: What does it take to fork the kernel?

[Gregory Nowak]

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Hash: SHA1

You've received several alternative answers to your original
questions, but I'll provide some answers below to the original questions, in case they would
still be of use.

On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 06:33:57AM -0500, Bill Cox wrote:
> First, is there some way to disable speaking
> by default during boot, and only enable it if the user asks for it?

Yes. Provide

speakup.quiet=1

on the kernel command line (I.E. in the boot loader config), and
speakup will stay quiet, until the user does something (I.E. reviews
the screen, starts typing, or whatever).

> The first sound Vinux normally makes is the login window chime.  I
> think it will confuse some users and possibly annoy others if they
> wind up listening to the boot messages, but I want the option to
> listen.

As has already been pointed out, this would only be an issue for those
using hardware speech.

> Second, do you know what it takes to maintain the kernel
> packages?  I'm also a novice debian packager.
> 

I use kernel-package myself for building custom kernels in
debian. aptitude show kernel-package should give you the gory details.

> Finally, I've been asked to make some changes in default speakup
> settings (turn cursor tracking off, and set punctuation to some).  Is
> the recommended way with speakupconf?

If you'll be using only one synth, like software speech, then I don't
see a problem with that. If however people expect to be able to use
any supported hardware synth at boot, then using speakupconf means
having a separate directory under /etc/speakup for each supported
synth. I think a far easier way would be to simply put

echo 3 >/sys/accessibility/speakup/punc_level

in a boot script somewhere, assuming that 3 is the correct value for some. I don't know of any way
to adjust cursor tracking through /sys/accessibility/speakup, this can
only be done with numpad+asterisk as far as I know, though I'd love to
be corrected on that one.

As to the comments wondering why you'd ever want to adjust cursor
tracking, there are some situations when I do. If I boot up, and want
to use lynx, or mplayer right after login, I'll turn cursor tracking
off. If I want to use tin, I'll set it to highlight tracking. What
ever the case, 90% of the time, I will change the state of cursor
tracking at some point during my first login session before I log back
out. So, while being able to set the state of cursor tracking at boot
wouldn't be urgent for me, it would be a nice feature to have, just
my $0.01 worth. Hth.

Greg


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Re: What does it take to fork the kernel?

[tony seth]

Hi there:  I can only really answer one of yer questions, but if you're 
using software speech for Speakup, I don't think you'll have to worry 
about rambling kernel messages, as software speech takes long enough 
that you won't hear anything until you actually go to a console and hit 
enter or something.  I didn't get rambling kernel messages until I 
changed the modules file to load the doubletalk and now I get 
everything, which I like.  Actually I remember the first time I 
encountered Speakup on the Vinux 2.0 cd I liked knowing that when Orca 
would die that I could just jump into a console and software speech 
would just work, or I could switch over to the doubletalk if I wanted to.
Anyway, hope that helps a little, sorry for the rambling message...
Cheereo!

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Re: What does it take to fork the kernel?

[Bill Cox]

Ok, thanks for the feedback.  So, now I've got a vote not to change
the default settings, which I guess cancels the one vote to change
them.  To date, Vinux is primarily a platform that talks, and comes
with speakup using espeak by default, so I guess there's not much
advantage to a custom kernel (whew!).

I have run Ubuntu Lucid Alpha without gdm installed so that you boot
into a console read by speakup.  I do like that mode.  However, I
think the "standard" Vinux ISO will have gdm, but a "CLI" version
could be built without it.

The problem with building a Debian package for each new kernel Ubuntu
ships is that users will find that speakup stops talking after random
upgrades.  I'm tempted instead to detect that soft_synth isn't loading
properly, and then to compile a new speakup during boot.

Thanks for the rapid feedback.
Bill

On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 8:16 AM, tony seth <lp800@samobile.net> wrote:
> Hi there:  I can only really answer one of yer questions, but if you're
> using software speech for Speakup, I don't think you'll have to worry about
> rambling kernel messages, as software speech takes long enough that you
> won't hear anything until you actually go to a console and hit enter or
> something.  I didn't get rambling kernel messages until I changed the
> modules file to load the doubletalk and now I get everything, which I like.
>  Actually I remember the first time I encountered Speakup on the Vinux 2.0
> cd I liked knowing that when Orca would die that I could just jump into a
> console and software speech would just work, or I could switch over to the
> doubletalk if I wanted to.
> Anyway, hope that helps a little, sorry for the rambling message...
> Cheereo!
>
> --
> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: What does it take to fork the kernel?

[Chris Brannon]

Bill Cox wrote:
> To date, Vinux is primarily a platform that talks, and comes
> with speakup using espeak by default, so I guess there's not much
> advantage to a custom kernel (whew!).

A custom kernel is only advantageous with hardware speech, IMHO.

> The problem with building a Debian package for each new kernel Ubuntu
> ships is that users will find that speakup stops talking after random
> upgrades.

Can't you control that with your package manager?  E.G., with Speakup
having a dependency on a certain range of kernel versions?

-- Chris

Re: What does it take to fork the kernel?

[Samuel Thibault]

Chris Brannon, le Thu 18 Feb 2010 08:20:35 -0600, a écrit :
> > The problem with building a Debian package for each new kernel Ubuntu
> > ships is that users will find that speakup stops talking after random
> > upgrades.
> 
> Can't you control that with your package manager?  E.G., with Speakup
> having a dependency on a certain range of kernel versions?

It's already the case, but that doesn't prevent the default boot choice
from being to boot a newer kernel, even if the older is still available.

Samuel

Re: What does it take to fork the kernel?

[Samuel Thibault]

Bill Cox, le Thu 18 Feb 2010 08:51:43 -0500, a écrit :
> The problem with building a Debian package for each new kernel Ubuntu
> ships is that users will find that speakup stops talking after random
> upgrades.

Debian now includes the speakup modules directly in the linux-2.6
package, precisely to fix that issue.

Samuel

Re: What does it take to fork the kernel?

[Bill Cox]

On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:26 AM, Samuel Thibault
<samuel.thibault@ens-lyon.org> wrote:
> Bill Cox, le Thu 18 Feb 2010 08:51:43 -0500, a écrit :
>> The problem with building a Debian package for each new kernel Ubuntu
>> ships is that users will find that speakup stops talking after random
>> upgrades.
>
> Debian now includes the speakup modules directly in the linux-2.6
> package, precisely to fix that issue.

Nice!  Do you have any idea when that may get propagated to Ubuntu?

Bill

Re: What does it take to fork the kernel?

[Samuel Thibault]

Bill Cox, le Thu 18 Feb 2010 10:08:10 -0500, a écrit :
> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:26 AM, Samuel Thibault
> <samuel.thibault@ens-lyon.org> wrote:
> > Bill Cox, le Thu 18 Feb 2010 08:51:43 -0500, a écrit :
> >> The problem with building a Debian package for each new kernel Ubuntu
> >> ships is that users will find that speakup stops talking after random
> >> upgrades.
> >
> > Debian now includes the speakup modules directly in the linux-2.6
> > package, precisely to fix that issue.
> 
> Nice!  Do you have any idea when that may get propagated to Ubuntu?

I have no idea, ask Ubuntu people.

Samuel