my notes on l i n k s

my notes on l i n k s

[Kenny Hitt]

Hi.  Theese are just things I and others have found about using links.
As the subject says, this message is about l i n k s not l y n x.
First, there are 3 different distros of links.  The origional links
which is a text browser without javascript or lua script support.  The
other distros are based on this browser.
Second is elinks.  This is a version of links with support for lua
scripting.  It forked from links several versions ago.  The Debian
package of links is actually elinks.
Third is links with javascript support.  It is based on the most recent
version of the origional links browser.  There isn't a Debian package
for it.
As I write this, the latest version of links with javascript is 2.1pre7.
to use it you will need to download the source and compile it.
You can get it at
http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~clock/twibright/links/download.html
After you get it, you will need to configure and compile it.
I change to the source directory and usually type
./configure --enable-javascript --with-ssl
make.
To install, type make install as root.

The javascript is based on javascript version 1.3 from Netscape.
Netscape versions 4.04 and 4.5 uses javascript 1.3.
Because links's javascript support is written in C it will be hard to update it.
I am finding web sights with scripts which don't work, so it still has
problems.
Before you start to use it with speakup, you might want to do the
following.
Start the browser by just typing links.  This will give you a blank
screen.  Pressing escape gets you to the menu bar.  Start by going to
settings terminal and uncheck block cursor.  You won't get feedback in
the menus, but the cursor should track.  You toggle check boxes in the
links menus by using the space bar, but you use enter to toggle chech
boxes on web sights.  After you uncheck block cursor you
will need to go back to the settings menu and select save options.
By default links displays tables.  This makes the web pages look corect,
but it will be confusing trying to read them with speakup.  To fix this,
goto view html and uncheck display tables.  You will then need to go
back to view and select save html options.
I haven't figured out the bookmark manager yet, so if anyone else does
please let me know.

I'm not good at writing documentation and I've been playing with this
thing for a few weeks, so I've probably forgotten something important.

Hope this is helpful.
          Kenny

my notes on l i n k s

[Dave Hunt]

Ken:

Thanks for the concise, yet not complete, L  I  N  K  S how-to:).  I
have it configured as you suggest, and it's farely readable with
emacspeak and emacs terminal mode.  I need to figure out how to make
the thing accept certain cookies, how to make it launch an extermal
text editor on text areas, and, maybe, a few other little things.

-Dave

Re: my notes on l i n k s

[dashielljt]

In links inside the menus, sometimes items have an x on them and sometimes
not.  Does that x mean the item is checked or not?  Reason I'm asking is
block cursor had no x beside it originally and links are numbered did have
an x.

Jude <dashielljt@gmpexpress.net>

RE: my notes on l i n k s

[John Lee]

The x in Braille mean it is selected or checked.

-----Original Message-----
From: speakup-admin@braille.uwo.ca [mailto:speakup-admin@braille.uwo.ca]
On Behalf Of dashielljt
Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 10:02 PM
To: speakup@braille.uwo.ca
Subject: Re: my notes on l i n k s


In links inside the menus, sometimes items have an x on them and
sometimes not.  Does that x mean the item is checked or not?  Reason I'm
asking is block cursor had no x beside it originally and links are
numbered did have an x.

Jude <dashielljt@gmpexpress.net>



_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: my notes on l i n k s

[Cheryl Homiak]

Nice summary, Kenny.
there are a lot of sites that don't work, even some that do work with lynx. the
best thing is to have both on your system (or whatever browsers you use) and try
each browser to see if one works.
I haven't worked on the bookmark manager either but need to do so.
I was using links (nnot the kitty, I like that!) on thw schwans site, but
schwans must have changed again because now i can log in but can't shop. Very
frustrating!

Cheryl

Re: my notes on l i n k s

[Kenny Hitt]

Hi.  Yes.  [x] means the item is checked. [] means it isn't.  be aware
that the menues don't go down the screen. anexample of what I mean is:
[ ] Display tables [X] Display frames
Speakup tracks, so read word will tell you the one selected.

For those with punctuation turned off, the check boxes are enclosed in
brackets.

          Kenny

On Sun, Nov 17, 2002 at 10:01:48PM -0500, dashielljt wrote:
> In links inside the menus, sometimes items have an x on them and sometimes
> not.  Does that x mean the item is checked or not?  Reason I'm asking is
> block cursor had no x beside it originally and links are numbered did have
> an x.
> 
> Jude <dashielljt@gmpexpress.net>
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: my notes on l i n k s

[dashielljt]

If someone gets a chance could you check out http://www.pizzahut.com I
think that site won't work with either browser. I'd like to know if this
assessment is correct and if you were able to run it how you did that.

Jude <dashielljt@gmpexpress.net>

Re: my notes on l i n k s

[Kenny Hitt]

Hi.  Ann Parsons is the one who suggested calling lynx the cat.  I
currently have lynx, w3m, and links installed.  Each one has advantages
and disadvantages.  Maybe someone can figure out a way to combine them
all into one mega browser.

          Kenny

On Sun, Nov 17, 2002 at 10:35:07PM -0600, Cheryl Homiak wrote:
> Nice summary, Kenny.
> there are a lot of sites that don't work, even some that do work with lynx. the
> best thing is to have both on your system (or whatever browsers you use) and try
> each browser to see if one works.
> I haven't worked on the bookmark manager either but need to do so.
> I was using links (nnot the kitty, I like that!) on thw schwans site, but
> schwans must have changed again because now i can log in but can't shop. Very
> frustrating!
> 
> Cheryl
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: my notes on l i n k s

[Kenny Hitt]

Hi.  W3m and l i n k s were able to go to the sight.  L y n x could go
there, but because l y n x doesn't support frames I couldn't do anything
with it.  The sight doesn't appear to use javascript, just frames.
Looks like they don't deliver in my zip code, but they gave me the
locations of the stores.

          Kenny

On Mon, Nov 18, 2002 at 08:01:40AM -0500, dashielljt wrote:
> If someone gets a chance could you check out http://www.pizzahut.com I
> think that site won't work with either browser. I'd like to know if this
> assessment is correct and if you were able to run it how you did that.
> 
> Jude <dashielljt@gmpexpress.net>
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: my notes on l i n k s

[Chuck Hallenbeck]

Kennie,

There is no problem using Lynx the cat with frames. There is just
an extra step first, after which it is even more convenient than
Links the chain. With the cat you are shown a short menu of the
different frames. You press enter on one of them and it expands
to show you what that link contains. If you pick the wrong one,
you just back out of it and pick another. Each frame you open uses
the whole screen to do its thing, and that is a lot easier to
move around in than the split screen presentation of Links the
chain, IMHO.

Chuck

On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Kenny Hitt wrote:

> Hi.  W3m and l i n k s were able to go to the sight.  L y n x could go
> there, but because l y n x doesn't support frames I couldn't do anything
> with it.  The sight doesn't appear to use javascript, just frames.
> Looks like they don't deliver in my zip code, but they gave me the
> locations of the stores.
>
>           Kenny
>
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2002 at 08:01:40AM -0500, dashielljt wrote:
> > If someone gets a chance could you check out http://www.pizzahut.com I
> > think that site won't work with either browser. I'd like to know if this
> > assessment is correct and if you were able to run it how you did that.
> >
> > Jude <dashielljt@gmpexpress.net>
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

-- 
The Moon is Waxing Gibbous (98% of Full)
So visit me sometime at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh

Re: my notes on l i n k s

[Toby Fisher]

On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Kenny Hitt wrote:

> Hi.  W3m and l i n k s were able to go to the sight.  L y n x could go
> there, but because l y n x doesn't support frames I couldn't do anything
> with it.  The sight doesn't appear to use javascript, just frames.
> Looks like they don't deliver in my zip code, but they gave me the
> locations of the stores.

What's wrong with reading one of the frames, you'll find the rigbht one,
and most sites that say they use frames, can be used without them.

Cheers.

-- 
Toby Fisher	Email: toby@tjfisher.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808
   Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
   See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Re: my notes on l i n k s

[Buddy Brannan]

What do you mean the cat doesn't support frames? The cat has supported
frames since...well...at least 2.7! 
-- 
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV/3   | "And if the ground yawned,
Phone: (814) 455-7333     | I'd step to the side and say,
Email: davros@ycardz.com  | "Hey ground! I'm nobody's lunch!"
http://www.ycardz.com/    | --Eddie From Ohio

Re: my notes on l i n k s

[Janina Sajka]

Kenny Hitt writes:
> From: Kenny Hitt <kennyhitt@knology.
> I currently have lynx, w3m, and
> links installed. ... Maybe someone can figure out a way to combine them
> all into one mega browser.

Well, hold on to your hat. Once we have gnopernicus, we'll be adding
Mozilla to the list.

Re: my notes on l i n k s

[Janina Sajka]

What do you mean "doesn't support frames?" Of course it does. It's just
that each frame shows as a separate page. So, you have to iteratively
choose them to get to their content. In doing so, the left arrow is your
friend. I use left arrow to go back, and then down arrow to go to the
next frame's link.

Kenny Hitt writes:
> From: Kenny Hitt <kennyhitt@knology.net>
> 
> Hi.  W3m and l i n k s were able to go to the sight.  L y n x could go
> there, but because l y n x doesn't support frames I couldn't do anything
> with it.  The sight doesn't appear to use javascript, just frames.
> Looks like they don't deliver in my zip code, but they gave me the
> locations of the stores.
> 
>           Kenny
> 
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2002 at 08:01:40AM -0500, dashielljt wrote:
> > If someone gets a chance could you check out http://www.pizzahut.com I
> > think that site won't work with either browser. I'd like to know if this
> > assessment is correct and if you were able to run it how you did that.
> > 
> > Jude <dashielljt@gmpexpress.net>
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Re: my notes on l i n k s

[Janina Sajka]

The cat, the chain, ...

This is good.

Go on, Anne.

Re: my notes on l i n k s

[Kenny Hitt]

Ok.  Forgot about that.  Up until a few weeks ago, I used the cat for
everything.  Think I'd remember things like that.

          Kenny

On Mon, Nov 18, 2002 at 12:24:50PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> What do you mean "doesn't support frames?" Of course it does. It's just
> that each frame shows as a separate page. So, you have to iteratively
> choose them to get to their content. In doing so, the left arrow is your
> friend. I use left arrow to go back, and then down arrow to go to the
> next frame's link.
> 
> Kenny Hitt writes:
> > From: Kenny Hitt <kennyhitt@knology.net>
> > 
> > Hi.  W3m and l i n k s were able to go to the sight.  L y n x could go
> > there, but because l y n x doesn't support frames I couldn't do anything
> > with it.  The sight doesn't appear to use javascript, just frames.
> > Looks like they don't deliver in my zip code, but they gave me the
> > locations of the stores.
> > 
> >           Kenny
> > 
> > On Mon, Nov 18, 2002 at 08:01:40AM -0500, dashielljt wrote:
> > > If someone gets a chance could you check out http://www.pizzahut.com I
> > > think that site won't work with either browser. I'd like to know if this
> > > assessment is correct and if you were able to run it how you did that.
> > > 
> > > Jude <dashielljt@gmpexpress.net>
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> -- 
> 	
> 				Janina Sajka, Director
> 				Technology Research and Development
> 				Governmental Relations Group
> 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: my notes on l i n k s

[Kenny Hitt]

Hi.  That's what I'm hoping for.  
But I've seen reports on the speakup list that make me think
gnopernicus is still a long way off.

          Kenny
	  

          Kenny

On Mon, Nov 18, 2002 at 12:23:00PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> Kenny Hitt writes:
> > From: Kenny Hitt <kennyhitt@knology.
> > I currently have lynx, w3m, and
> > links installed. ... Maybe someone can figure out a way to combine them
> > all into one mega browser.
> 
> Well, hold on to your hat. Once we have gnopernicus, we'll be adding
> Mozilla to the list.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: my notes on l i n k s

[Janina Sajka]

Well, it is, depending on what "long ways off" means, of course. 

Kenny Hitt writes:
> From: Kenny Hitt <kennyhitt@knology.net>
> 
> Hi.  That's what I'm hoping for.  
> But I've seen reports on the speakup list that make me think
> gnopernicus is still a long way off.
> 
>           Kenny
> 	  
> 
>           Kenny
> 
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2002 at 12:23:00PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > Kenny Hitt writes:
> > > From: Kenny Hitt <kennyhitt@knology.
> > > I currently have lynx, w3m, and
> > > links installed. ... Maybe someone can figure out a way to combine them
> > > all into one mega browser.
> > 
> > Well, hold on to your hat. Once we have gnopernicus, we'll be adding
> > Mozilla to the list.
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Re: my notes on l i n k s

[Chuck Hallenbeck]

Gnopernicus is just around the corner, but it is definitely not
here yet. I have a copy which runs and gives me speech access to
a number of window manager menus using Festival speech, but the
installation is very difficult and iffy and a number of very
talented people are tearing their hair out over it. I cannot
explain my own success, and frankly, it is not all that useful.

However - speakup users will be interested in this - the speakup
keymap does not interfere with the use of the keypad in
Gnopernicus. What happens is that both speakup and Gnopernicus
capture each keypad keystroke, and the result is pretty weird to
say the least, until you simply press the printscreen key to kill
speakup. Then all  you hear is Gnopernicus. In other words, there
is no need for a special keymap or to remove the speakup keymap.
Just kill speakup once you enter Gnopernicus and it works.

The development team is working hard at this thing, but there are
still some problems to be resolved. There were some memory leaks
at last report, and I see some so-called "multiple segfaults"
upon exiting the thing, so there is definitely work to be done
yet.

Chuck

On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Kenny Hitt wrote:

> Hi.  That's what I'm hoping for.
> But I've seen reports on the speakup list that make me think
> gnopernicus is still a long way off.
>
>           Kenny
>
>
>           Kenny
>
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2002 at 12:23:00PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > Kenny Hitt writes:
> > > From: Kenny Hitt <kennyhitt@knology.
> > > I currently have lynx, w3m, and
> > > links installed. ... Maybe someone can figure out a way to combine them
> > > all into one mega browser.
> >
> > Well, hold on to your hat. Once we have gnopernicus, we'll be adding
> > Mozilla to the list.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

-- 
The Moon is Waxing Gibbous (98% of Full)
So visit me sometime at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh

Re: my notes on l i n k s

[Ann Parsons]

Hi all,

Well, I figured that there should be a way to distinguish which one
was meant because they sounds the same with a speech synthe, though
they may look different to the light dependent or someone using a
braille display.  It just makes life easier.

Ann P.

-- 
			Ann K. Parsons  
email:  akp@eznet.net 			ICQ Number:  33006854
WEB SITE:  http://home.eznet.net/~akp
"All that is gold does not glitter.  Not all those who wander are lost."  JRRT

Re: my notes on l i n k s

[Cheryl Homiak]

The "light dependent?" Hmm, ann, will have to save that one up for future use!!!

Cheryl

Re: my notes on l i n k s

[Janina Sajka]

Yes, I think they're also known as the blindness impaired.

Cheryl Homiak writes:
> From: Cheryl Homiak <chomiak@chartermi.net>
> 
> The "light dependent?" Hmm, ann, will have to save that one up for future use!!!
> 
> Cheryl
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Re: my notes on l i n k s

[Igor Gueths]

Hell I used to use the cat with frames back Irix was popular.

May you code in the power of the source,
may the kernel, libraries, and utilities be with you,
throughout all distributions until the end of the epoch.

On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Buddy Brannan wrote:

> What do you mean the cat doesn't support frames? The cat has supported
> frames since...well...at least 2.7!
> --
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV/3   | "And if the ground yawned,
> Phone: (814) 455-7333     | I'd step to the side and say,
> Email: davros@ycardz.com  | "Hey ground! I'm nobody's lunch!"
> http://www.ycardz.com/    | --Eddie From Ohio
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: my notes on l i n k s

[Charles Crawford]

Janina,

         I read your message and I felt the shudder of dread that I 
remember when windows first became accessible.  It's a double edged 
sword.  I hoep we do not allow the console to go the way DOS did.  The only 
encouraging thing o that fron that I have heard in a real ong time is the 
note the other day about .netserver with text based and command line driven 
utilities.

-- chrlie.

At 12:23 PM 11/18/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Kenny Hitt writes:
> > From: Kenny Hitt <kennyhitt@knology.
> > I currently have lynx, w3m, and
> > links installed. ... Maybe someone can figure out a way to combine them
> > all into one mega browser.
>
>Well, hold on to your hat. Once we have gnopernicus, we'll be adding
>Mozilla to the list.
>
>_______________________________________________
>Speakup mailing list
>Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
>http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Re: my notes on l i n k s

[Janina Sajka]

I really don't know what to say, Charlie. Seems that whatever I say
doesn't register, and we comeback around to this same, nonspecific,
dread.

So, at the risk of revisiting the same discussion as we've had on
several occassions in the past on this list:

1.)	The console is not going away.
2.)	Mozilla includes support for accessibility, both in its Win and
Linux/Unix versions.

3.)	Gnopernicus will support Mozilla. There's a team of some 12
engineers working specifically on Mozilla accessibility.

Charles Crawford writes:
> From: Charles Crawford <ccrawford@acb.org>
> 
> Janina,
> 
>         I read your message and I felt the shudder of dread that I 
> remember when windows first became accessible.  It's a double edged 
> sword.  I hoep we do not allow the console to go the way DOS did.  The only 
> encouraging thing o that fron that I have heard in a real ong time is the 
> note the other day about .netserver with text based and command line driven 
> utilities.
> 
> -- chrlie.
> 
> At 12:23 PM 11/18/02 -0500, you wrote:
> >Kenny Hitt writes:
> >> From: Kenny Hitt <kennyhitt@knology.
> >> I currently have lynx, w3m, and
> >> links installed. ... Maybe someone can figure out a way to combine them
> >> all into one mega browser.
> >
> >Well, hold on to your hat. Once we have gnopernicus, we'll be adding
> >Mozilla to the list.
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Speakup mailing list
> >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
	
				Janina Sajka, Director
				Technology Research and Development
				Governmental Relations Group
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175

Re: my notes on l i n k s

[Steve Holmes]

Hey, my version of l y n x  supports frames.  When I compiled it from
sources, I included a configure option --with-frames (I think that's
what it is) as well as --with-tables.  I can read many sites with
tables and frames.  I personally find the in-line frames of internet
exploder to be easier to deal with than what l y n x does since I just
press control-tab in IE and there I am - next frame.  Anyhow, I've
seen and used frames on several occasions with l y n x.

On Mon, Nov 18, 2002 at 10:17:35AM -0600, Kenny Hitt wrote:
> Hi.  W3m and l i n k s were able to go to the sight.  L y n x could go
> there, but because l y n x doesn't support frames I couldn't do anything
> with it.  The sight doesn't appear to use javascript, just frames.
> Looks like they don't deliver in my zip code, but they gave me the
> locations of the stores.
> 
>           Kenny
> 
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2002 at 08:01:40AM -0500, dashielljt wrote:
> > If someone gets a chance could you check out http://www.pizzahut.com I
> > think that site won't work with either browser. I'd like to know if this
> > assessment is correct and if you were able to run it how you did that.
> > 
> > Jude <dashielljt@gmpexpress.net>
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
   See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Re: my notes on l i n k s

[Steve Holmes]

I have seen some sites where the page came up saying something to the
effect that my browser does not support frames.  I don't know how they
conclude that when Lynx (the cat) does indeed support frames.  I
really don't know where they are coming from.

On Mon, Nov 18, 2002 at 12:24:50PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> What do you mean "doesn't support frames?" Of course it does. It's just
> that each frame shows as a separate page. So, you have to iteratively
> choose them to get to their content. In doing so, the left arrow is your
> friend. I use left arrow to go back, and then down arrow to go to the
> next frame's link.
> 
> Kenny Hitt writes:
> > From: Kenny Hitt <kennyhitt@knology.net>
> > 
> > Hi.  W3m and l i n k s were able to go to the sight.  L y n x could go
> > there, but because l y n x doesn't support frames I couldn't do anything
> > with it.  The sight doesn't appear to use javascript, just frames.
> > Looks like they don't deliver in my zip code, but they gave me the
> > locations of the stores.
> > 
> >           Kenny
> > 
> > On Mon, Nov 18, 2002 at 08:01:40AM -0500, dashielljt wrote:
> > > If someone gets a chance could you check out http://www.pizzahut.com I
> > > think that site won't work with either browser. I'd like to know if this
> > > assessment is correct and if you were able to run it how you did that.
> > > 
> > > Jude <dashielljt@gmpexpress.net>
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> -- 
> 	
> 				Janina Sajka, Director
> 				Technology Research and Development
> 				Governmental Relations Group
> 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> 
> Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup

-- 
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
   See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Re: my notes on l i n k s

[Chuck Hallenbeck]

I once saw a site that said,

You are using a browser that does not support frames.
It really sucks, being you!


On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:

> I have seen some sites where the page came up saying something to the
> effect that my browser does not support frames.  I don't know how they
> conclude that when Lynx (the cat) does indeed support frames.  I
> really don't know where they are coming from.
>

-- 
The Moon is Waxing Gibbous (99% of Full)
So visit me sometime at http://www.mhonline.net/~chuckh

Re: my notes on l i n k s

[Scott Howell]

What's really interesting is a site that says my browser does not 
support iframes. What in the hell is an iframe.

Scott

Re: my notes on l i n k s

[Igor Gueths]

In that case just change the user agent header. In the cat I saw it in
options, and I think it saves its settings for the current session in
.lynxrc? If you want to make it global just copy the file's contents.

May you code in the power of the source,
may the kernel, libraries, and utilities be with you,
throughout all distributions until the end of the epoch.

On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:

> I have seen some sites where the page came up saying something to the
> effect that my browser does not support frames.  I don't know how they
> conclude that when Lynx (the cat) does indeed support frames.  I
> really don't know where they are coming from.
>
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2002 at 12:24:50PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > What do you mean "doesn't support frames?" Of course it does. It's just
> > that each frame shows as a separate page. So, you have to iteratively
> > choose them to get to their content. In doing so, the left arrow is your
> > friend. I use left arrow to go back, and then down arrow to go to the
> > next frame's link.
> >
> > Kenny Hitt writes:
> > > From: Kenny Hitt <kennyhitt@knology.net>
> > >
> > > Hi.  W3m and l i n k s were able to go to the sight.  L y n x could go
> > > there, but because l y n x doesn't support frames I couldn't do anything
> > > with it.  The sight doesn't appear to use javascript, just frames.
> > > Looks like they don't deliver in my zip code, but they gave me the
> > > locations of the stores.
> > >
> > >           Kenny
> > >
> > > On Mon, Nov 18, 2002 at 08:01:40AM -0500, dashielljt wrote:
> > > > If someone gets a chance could you check out http://www.pizzahut.com I
> > > > think that site won't work with either browser. I'd like to know if this
> > > > assessment is correct and if you were able to run it how you did that.
> > > >
> > > > Jude <dashielljt@gmpexpress.net>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> > --
> >
> > 				Janina Sajka, Director
> > 				Technology Research and Development
> > 				Governmental Relations Group
> > 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> --
> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
>    See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: my notes on l i n k s

[dashielljt]

The short version, there's lots of ignorant web designers out there.

Jude <dashielljt@gmpexpress.net>

On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:

> I have seen some sites where the page came up saying something to the
> effect that my browser does not support frames.  I don't know how they
> conclude that when Lynx (the cat) does indeed support frames.  I
> really don't know where they are coming from.
>
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2002 at 12:24:50PM -0500, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > What do you mean "doesn't support frames?" Of course it does. It's just
> > that each frame shows as a separate page. So, you have to iteratively
> > choose them to get to their content. In doing so, the left arrow is your
> > friend. I use left arrow to go back, and then down arrow to go to the
> > next frame's link.
> >
> > Kenny Hitt writes:
> > > From: Kenny Hitt <kennyhitt@knology.net>
> > >
> > > Hi.  W3m and l i n k s were able to go to the sight.  L y n x could go
> > > there, but because l y n x doesn't support frames I couldn't do anything
> > > with it.  The sight doesn't appear to use javascript, just frames.
> > > Looks like they don't deliver in my zip code, but they gave me the
> > > locations of the stores.
> > >
> > >           Kenny
> > >
> > > On Mon, Nov 18, 2002 at 08:01:40AM -0500, dashielljt wrote:
> > > > If someone gets a chance could you check out http://www.pizzahut.com I
> > > > think that site won't work with either browser. I'd like to know if this
> > > > assessment is correct and if you were able to run it how you did that.
> > > >
> > > > Jude <dashielljt@gmpexpress.net>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
> > --
> >
> > 				Janina Sajka, Director
> > 				Technology Research and Development
> > 				Governmental Relations Group
> > 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> >
> > Email: janina@afb.net		Phone: (202) 408-8175
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>
> --
> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
>    See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
>

Re: my notes on l i n k s

[Dave Hunt]

I think some of these people look at the user agent, discover it's not
one of Exploiter or Agravator, and give up.  

-Dave
dashielljt writes:
 > The short version, there's lots of ignorant web designers out there.
 > 
 > Jude <dashielljt@gmpexpress.net>
 > 
 > On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:
 > 
 > > I have seen some sites where the page came up saying something to the
 > > effect that my browser does not support frames.  I don't know how they
 > > conclude that when Lynx (the cat) does indeed support frames.  I
 > > really don't know where they are coming from.

Re: my notes on l i n k s

[Cheryl Homiak]

I saw a site like that once too.
Thing is: some of those sites that claim you can't use them because of their
frames are perfectly usable. I always ignore the warnings and try anyway. Except
the site I saw like the one chuck mentioned: I figure it didn't have anything I
wanted!!!

Cheryl

Re: my notes on l i n k s

[ccrawford]

Janina,

	I hope this red flag that I have been carrying around turns out to 
be not needed.  I would like nothing more than to agree with you.  

	If the console is not going away, then will the apps be able to be 
run from the console?  If so, then I am a happy guy and if not, then my 
concern remains that development will happen for X and leave the consol 
to those who don't mind using older programs and those who still like 
text.  

	As I say, I am more than happy to agree with you and my only point 
is to emphasize that we need to be vigilant about this and make sure the 
community understands it.  There are already programs that will not run at 
the console level and I am hoping that is a fluke rather than a trend.  
Sure, programers can open the source code and re-engineer the program to 
work at the console level, but who will do it?

	so the strategy must be to always remind the teams doing X 
development that there are console users who need the access.  Some may 
migrate to X just as there are many blind folks who say windows is now as 
accessible as DOS used to be.  To some extent that is true, but what 
access there is relies upon a fragil and cost intensive environment.  How 
much money are blind folks having to fork out just to keep up with the 
latest rease of whatever?

-- charlie.


ps:  I hope you are not viewing this as an attack since it is only a 
concern. 


On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:

> I really don't know what to say, Charlie. Seems that whatever I say
> doesn't register, and we comeback around to this same, nonspecific,
> dread.
> 
> So, at the risk of revisiting the same discussion as we've had on
> several occassions in the past on this list:
> 
> 1.)	The console is not going away.
> 2.)	Mozilla includes support for accessibility, both in its Win and
> Linux/Unix versions.
> 
> 3.)	Gnopernicus will support Mozilla. There's a team of some 12
> engineers working specifically on Mozilla accessibility.
> 
> Charles Crawford writes:
> > From: Charles Crawford <ccrawford@acb.org>
> > 
> > Janina,
> > 
> >         I read your message and I felt the shudder of dread that I 
> > remember when windows first became accessible.  It's a double edged 
> > sword.  I hoep we do not allow the console to go the way DOS did.  The only 
> > encouraging thing o that fron that I have heard in a real ong time is the 
> > note the other day about .netserver with text based and command line driven 
> > utilities.
> > 
> > -- chrlie.
> > 
> > At 12:23 PM 11/18/02 -0500, you wrote:
> > >Kenny Hitt writes:
> > >> From: Kenny Hitt <kennyhitt@knology.
> > >> I currently have lynx, w3m, and
> > >> links installed. ... Maybe someone can figure out a way to combine them
> > >> all into one mega browser.
> > >
> > >Well, hold on to your hat. Once we have gnopernicus, we'll be adding
> > >Mozilla to the list.
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Speakup mailing list
> > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 
> 

Re: my notes on l i n k s

[Kenny Hitt]

Hi.  What programs are you talking about?  More important, what purpose
do theese programs serve?

          Kenny

On Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 07:19:10AM -0500, ccrawford@acb.org wrote:
> Janina,
> 
> 	I hope this red flag that I have been carrying around turns out to 
> be not needed.  I would like nothing more than to agree with you.  
> 
> 	If the console is not going away, then will the apps be able to be 
> run from the console?  If so, then I am a happy guy and if not, then my 
> concern remains that development will happen for X and leave the consol 
> to those who don't mind using older programs and those who still like 
> text.  
> 
> 	As I say, I am more than happy to agree with you and my only point 
> is to emphasize that we need to be vigilant about this and make sure the 
> community understands it.  There are already programs that will not run at 
> the console level and I am hoping that is a fluke rather than a trend.  
> Sure, programers can open the source code and re-engineer the program to 
> work at the console level, but who will do it?
> 
> 	so the strategy must be to always remind the teams doing X 
> development that there are console users who need the access.  Some may 
> migrate to X just as there are many blind folks who say windows is now as 
> accessible as DOS used to be.  To some extent that is true, but what 
> access there is relies upon a fragil and cost intensive environment.  How 
> much money are blind folks having to fork out just to keep up with the 
> latest rease of whatever?
> 
> -- charlie.
> 
> 
> ps:  I hope you are not viewing this as an attack since it is only a 
> concern. 
> 
> 
> On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
> 
> > I really don't know what to say, Charlie. Seems that whatever I say
> > doesn't register, and we comeback around to this same, nonspecific,
> > dread.
> > 
> > So, at the risk of revisiting the same discussion as we've had on
> > several occassions in the past on this list:
> > 
> > 1.)	The console is not going away.
> > 2.)	Mozilla includes support for accessibility, both in its Win and
> > Linux/Unix versions.
> > 
> > 3.)	Gnopernicus will support Mozilla. There's a team of some 12
> > engineers working specifically on Mozilla accessibility.
> > 
> > Charles Crawford writes:
> > > From: Charles Crawford <ccrawford@acb.org>
> > > 
> > > Janina,
> > > 
> > >         I read your message and I felt the shudder of dread that I 
> > > remember when windows first became accessible.  It's a double edged 
> > > sword.  I hoep we do not allow the console to go the way DOS did.  The only 
> > > encouraging thing o that fron that I have heard in a real ong time is the 
> > > note the other day about .netserver with text based and command line driven 
> > > utilities.
> > > 
> > > -- chrlie.
> > > 
> > > At 12:23 PM 11/18/02 -0500, you wrote:
> > > >Kenny Hitt writes:
> > > >> From: Kenny Hitt <kennyhitt@knology.
> > > >> I currently have lynx, w3m, and
> > > >> links installed. ... Maybe someone can figure out a way to combine them
> > > >> all into one mega browser.
> > > >
> > > >Well, hold on to your hat. Once we have gnopernicus, we'll be adding
> > > >Mozilla to the list.
> > > >
> > > >_______________________________________________
> > > >Speakup mailing list
> > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Speakup mailing list
> > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: my notes on l i n k s

[ccrawford]

Hi Kenny,

	It was a program for audio output and can't remember the name 
after it said I needed X to run it.  Moreover, it really is not about a 
particular program since others will follow if a trend develops.

-- charlie.


On Tue, 19 Nov 2002, Kenny Hitt wrote:

> Hi.  What programs are you talking about?  More important, what purpose
> do theese programs serve?
> 
>           Kenny
> 
> On Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 07:19:10AM -0500, ccrawford@acb.org wrote:
> > Janina,
> > 
> > 	I hope this red flag that I have been carrying around turns out to 
> > be not needed.  I would like nothing more than to agree with you.  
> > 
> > 	If the console is not going away, then will the apps be able to be 
> > run from the console?  If so, then I am a happy guy and if not, then my 
> > concern remains that development will happen for X and leave the consol 
> > to those who don't mind using older programs and those who still like 
> > text.  
> > 
> > 	As I say, I am more than happy to agree with you and my only point 
> > is to emphasize that we need to be vigilant about this and make sure the 
> > community understands it.  There are already programs that will not run at 
> > the console level and I am hoping that is a fluke rather than a trend.  
> > Sure, programers can open the source code and re-engineer the program to 
> > work at the console level, but who will do it?
> > 
> > 	so the strategy must be to always remind the teams doing X 
> > development that there are console users who need the access.  Some may 
> > migrate to X just as there are many blind folks who say windows is now as 
> > accessible as DOS used to be.  To some extent that is true, but what 
> > access there is relies upon a fragil and cost intensive environment.  How 
> > much money are blind folks having to fork out just to keep up with the 
> > latest rease of whatever?
> > 
> > -- charlie.
> > 
> > 
> > ps:  I hope you are not viewing this as an attack since it is only a 
> > concern. 
> > 
> > 
> > On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Janina Sajka wrote:
> > 
> > > I really don't know what to say, Charlie. Seems that whatever I say
> > > doesn't register, and we comeback around to this same, nonspecific,
> > > dread.
> > > 
> > > So, at the risk of revisiting the same discussion as we've had on
> > > several occassions in the past on this list:
> > > 
> > > 1.)	The console is not going away.
> > > 2.)	Mozilla includes support for accessibility, both in its Win and
> > > Linux/Unix versions.
> > > 
> > > 3.)	Gnopernicus will support Mozilla. There's a team of some 12
> > > engineers working specifically on Mozilla accessibility.
> > > 
> > > Charles Crawford writes:
> > > > From: Charles Crawford <ccrawford@acb.org>
> > > > 
> > > > Janina,
> > > > 
> > > >         I read your message and I felt the shudder of dread that I 
> > > > remember when windows first became accessible.  It's a double edged 
> > > > sword.  I hoep we do not allow the console to go the way DOS did.  The only 
> > > > encouraging thing o that fron that I have heard in a real ong time is the 
> > > > note the other day about .netserver with text based and command line driven 
> > > > utilities.
> > > > 
> > > > -- chrlie.
> > > > 
> > > > At 12:23 PM 11/18/02 -0500, you wrote:
> > > > >Kenny Hitt writes:
> > > > >> From: Kenny Hitt <kennyhitt@knology.
> > > > >> I currently have lynx, w3m, and
> > > > >> links installed. ... Maybe someone can figure out a way to combine them
> > > > >> all into one mega browser.
> > > > >
> > > > >Well, hold on to your hat. Once we have gnopernicus, we'll be adding
> > > > >Mozilla to the list.
> > > > >
> > > > >_______________________________________________
> > > > >Speakup mailing list
> > > > >Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Speakup mailing list
> > > > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
> Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> 

Re: my notes on l i n k s

[Toby Fisher]

On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Scott Howell wrote:

> What's really interesting is a site that says my browser does not
> support iframes. What in the hell is an iframe.

It's an inline frame, they're usually pop-up ads, and you'll see, in the
cat Lynx, something like:

iframe: http://ad.doubleclick.net/bla/b/l/a/bbb/lll/aaa/bla/bla

Cheers.

-- 
Toby Fisher	Email: toby@tjfisher.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808
   Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
   See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Re: my notes on l i n k s

[Toby Fisher]

On Tue, 19 Nov 2002 ccrawford@acb.org wrote:

> Hi Kenny,
>
> 	It was a program for audio output and can't remember the name
> after it said I needed X to run it.  Moreover, it really is not about a
> particular program since others will follow if a trend develops.

Hmmm, so there's 1 audio program that requires that you use X, so fine,
use another.  Some people are coding just for X, but a lot more are still
coding for just console, or for both, the --without-x configure option has
become a popular one on my system.  Most sys admins still like the
console, not least because it means they can log on and get tgood response
from their system, via ssh across a modem link.

The console's not going away any time soon, chill out.

Cheers.

-- 
Toby Fisher	Email: toby@tjfisher.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808
   Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
   See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Re: my notes on l i n k s

[Buddy Brannan]

Must agree with Toby here. And Janina. And...

Bear in mind that GNU/Linux (and indeed any un*x-like environment) is
necessarily different from DOS, Windows, and the like. The systems are
meant to have multiple users, so they do a lot of things at once very
easily, because they were designed that way.

Moreover, the way that things *should be* programmed for this
environment is necessarily different. Note i said *should*, because
obviously it's not always done this way as we all know. But generally,
X-Window programs are merely front ends to other things that don't
require X, and non-X front-ends are generally available--or can be
written. Interfaces are generally separated from the main
program--this isn't true of Windows and its ilk. Certainly it isn't
always true under GNU/Linux and other Un*x-like environments either,
but it's true enough that I don't think we need worry about text
consoles going away any time very soon. 
-- 
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV/3   | "And if the ground yawned,
Phone: (814) 455-7333     | I'd step to the side and say,
Email: davros@ycardz.com  | "Hey ground! I'm nobody's lunch!"
http://www.ycardz.com/    | --Eddie From Ohio

Re: my notes on l i n k s

[Toby Fisher]

On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Steve Holmes wrote:

> I have seen some sites where the page came up saying something to the
> effect that my browser does not support frames.  I don't know how they
> conclude that when Lynx (the cat) does indeed support frames.  I
> really don't know where they are coming from.

Basically, if your browser can't render the frames like a graphical one
does, like the chain, or M$ Internet Exploder for example, then it assumes
that your browser doesn't support frames, and therefore what you see is
actually a frame called noframes, an usually it contains this sort of
nobrain information, though I'm noticing more and more sites are including
a "Click here" link, which goes to a non-frames version of the site, which
in truth is just the content frame anyway.  I've even seen this message on
pages with 1 frame, yes 1, so I just press enter on that, and surprise
surprise, it works just fine!

Cheers.
-- 
Toby Fisher	Email: toby@tjfisher.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808
   Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
   See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Re: my notes on l i n k s

[Toby Fisher]

On Tue, 19 Nov 2002, Buddy Brannan wrote:

<snip>

> Interfaces are generally separated from the main
> program--this isn't true of Windows and its ilk. Certainly it isn't
> always true under GNU/Linux and other Un*x-like environments either,
> but it's true enough that I don't think we need worry about text
> consoles going away any time very soon.

Actually, to be fair this isn't strictly true.  For example, I know for a
fact that some programs under Windows (a good friend of mine wrote one for
example), have separate .dlls for the user interface, to make threading
easier, and to try and offset some of the inherent instability provided by
the underlying operating system.

-- 
 Toby Fisher	 Email: toby@tjfisher.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808
   Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
   See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Interfaces was Re: my notes on l i n k s

[William Hubbs]

I must agree here also.  I really don't think we need to worry too much
about the text console going away any time soon either.

William

On Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 11:27:04AM -0500, Buddy Brannan wrote:
> Must agree with Toby here. And Janina. And...
> 
> Bear in mind that GNU/Linux (and indeed any un*x-like environment) is
> necessarily different from DOS, Windows, and the like. The systems are
> meant to have multiple users, so they do a lot of things at once very
> easily, because they were designed that way.
> 
> Moreover, the way that things *should be* programmed for this
> environment is necessarily different. Note i said *should*, because
> obviously it's not always done this way as we all know. But generally,
> X-Window programs are merely front ends to other things that don't
> require X, and non-X front-ends are generally available--or can be
> written. Interfaces are generally separated from the main
> program--this isn't true of Windows and its ilk. Certainly it isn't
> always true under GNU/Linux and other Un*x-like environments either,
> but it's true enough that I don't think we need worry about text
> consoles going away any time very soon. 
> -- 
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV/3   | "And if the ground yawned,
> Phone: (814) 455-7333     | I'd step to the side and say,
> Email: davros@ycardz.com  | "Hey ground! I'm nobody's lunch!"
> http://www.ycardz.com/    | --Eddie From Ohio
> 
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Your Linux fears (again)

[Kenny Hitt]

Once again, what program and what task?  You tell people what task you
are trying to do, and you will likely get a list of solutions.  Also,
just because a program says it need X don't mean you can't use it.  You
need X installed to play DVDs but there is an article on how to set it
up so you control everything from the console.  I don't have the article
saved on this system, but its in the speakup archives.

You just can't seem to understand Linux ain't Windows!  If you haven't
done so already, go install X and gnome.  Then take a look around in and
you might start to see what I mean.

          Kenny

On Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 04:10:49PM +0000, Toby Fisher wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Nov 2002 ccrawford@acb.org wrote:
> 
> > Hi Kenny,
> >
> > 	It was a program for audio output and can't remember the name
> > after it said I needed X to run it.  Moreover, it really is not about a
> > particular program since others will follow if a trend develops.
> 
> Hmmm, so there's 1 audio program that requires that you use X, so fine,
> use another.  Some people are coding just for X, but a lot more are still
> coding for just console, or for both, the --without-x configure option has
> become a popular one on my system.  Most sys admins still like the
> console, not least because it means they can log on and get tgood response
> from their system, via ssh across a modem link.
> 
> The console's not going away any time soon, chill out.
> 
> Cheers.
> 
> -- 
> Toby Fisher	Email: toby@tjfisher.co.uk
> Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
> ICQ: #61744808
>    Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
>    See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Speakup mailing list
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> 

Re: Your Linux fears (again)

[ccrawford]

Hello Kenny and all,

	I am stil concerned for the future of text based command line 
computing, but I am much more encouraged after reading your responses.  So 
let's move on  to other stuff.

-- charlie.

Re: Your Linux fears (again)

[Igor Gueths]

I have to agree with Kenny on this one. Especially when you compile things
from source. Take his example of needing X installed to play dvd's. This
isn't true. Just grab mplayer from sources and the video codec (even
though you won't use it). Then specify video output=NULL and ao=oss/alsa
and you're set. This is further documented in the archives as he mentioned
as well.

May you code in the power of the source,
may the kernel, libraries, and utilities be with you,
throughout all distributions until the end of the epoch.

On Tue, 19 Nov 2002, Kenny Hitt wrote:

> Once again, what program and what task?  You tell people what task you
> are trying to do, and you will likely get a list of solutions.  Also,
> just because a program says it need X don't mean you can't use it.  You
> need X installed to play DVDs but there is an article on how to set it
> up so you control everything from the console.  I don't have the article
> saved on this system, but its in the speakup archives.
>
> You just can't seem to understand Linux ain't Windows!  If you haven't
> done so already, go install X and gnome.  Then take a look around in and
> you might start to see what I mean.
>
>           Kenny
>
> On Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 04:10:49PM +0000, Toby Fisher wrote:
> > On Tue, 19 Nov 2002 ccrawford@acb.org wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Kenny,
> > >
> > > 	It was a program for audio output and can't remember the name
> > > after it said I needed X to run it.  Moreover, it really is not about a
> > > particular program since others will follow if a trend develops.
> >
> > Hmmm, so there's 1 audio program that requires that you use X, so fine,
> > use another.  Some people are coding just for X, but a lot more are still
> > coding for just console, or for both, the --without-x configure option has
> > become a popular one on my system.  Most sys admins still like the
> > console, not least because it means they can log on and get tgood response
> > from their system, via ssh across a modem link.
> >
> > The console's not going away any time soon, chill out.
> >
> > Cheers.
> >
> > --
> > Toby Fisher	Email: toby@tjfisher.co.uk
> > Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
> > ICQ: #61744808
> >    Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> >    See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Speakup mailing list
> > Speakup@braille.uwo.ca
> > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup
> >
>
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